1 Wednesday, 30 September 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
12 today starting with the Prosecution, please.
13 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. Dan Saxon, April Carter,
14 and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the Defence.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning, Your Honour. Daniela Tasic,
17 Chad Mair, Tina Drolec, Novak Lukic, and Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of
18 Mr. Perisic.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Colonel Tucker, I know you
20 know it but I must remind you, you are still bound by the declaration you
21 made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole
22 truth, and nothing else but the truth.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 Mr. Guy-Smith, before you start, just to remind the parties that
1 we are probably going to sit for one and a half sessions today, we don't
2 have interpreters. And if you are able to indicate how long you are
3 going to be so that maybe the Registrar might start arranging for
4 recalling Colonel Tucker or postponing to a date where Colonel Tucker
5 could be able to attend, otherwise, Mr. Saxon, you may have to recall
6 him, if we don't finish with him. Thank you. Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Would you like me to address that question first,
8 Your Honour?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you are able to very briefly.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very briefly, I hope to be, if things go as
11 planned, I hope to be done within a session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I have no idea what the redirect is.
14 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I have two subject matters to address
15 with the colonel, so it should be very short.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 WITNESS: PYERS TUCKER [Resumed]
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith: [Continued]
21 Q. Colonel Tucker, with the notion of time for the moment not being
22 our friend, I'm going to move to another subject quickly in an attempt to
23 expedite matters.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have 1D02-5508 up on the screen,
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Something is funny here, I don't hear you through
2 my earphones.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Do you hear me --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hear you like that but not here.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: You don't hear me?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Try again.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure. Can you hear me now?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's better.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes? Excellent.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: That was 1D02-5508.
12 Q. What I'm going to do right now is I'm going to show you a series
13 of documents, most of which cover matters that we have discussed already,
14 and I'd like you to take a look at them briefly, if you could, and then
15 see whether or not these are documents that are familiar to you and the
16 information contained therein is information of which you know. Okay?
17 The first document obviously, as you can tell is an UNMO
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could turn to the next -- dated
20 16th November, 1993
22 Q. Now, as I understand, this would be at a time when you were no
23 longer in the region; correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Okay. So this is not a document that you are familiar with?
1 A. It's the type of document I'm familiar with, but this one, no.
2 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could now have up on the screen, please,
5 Q. The next document I'm going to show you is from the headquarters
6 of United Kingdom land forces. It's -- the date is the
7 10th of March, 1993.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could scroll down to the first
9 paragraph which is 1(a).
10 Q. I don't know if you -- can you read that?
11 A. Yes, I can.
12 Q. And that indicates that:
13 "The Muslim counter-offensive in response to the fall of Cerska
14 continues but without marked success."
15 Is this information that you reported?
16 A. No, this is information which was reported by the
17 British battalion which had forces -- or had troops up in the Tuzla
18 pocket, if I remember they were commanded by a major Abrahams and his
19 unit was reporting both to United Nations in other words to Kiseljak but
20 was also sending independent UK
21 Q. All right. And turning to the next page which is page 2,
22 paragraph (b). I believe you at one point mentioned the name of a
23 gentleman, Mr. Hollingsworth?
24 A. Yeah, I can't see --
25 Q. It hasn't come up yet, unfortunately.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's page 3. There we go. Great. Thank you
2 so much.
3 Q. Paragraph (b) states:
4 "Mr. Larry Hollingsworth on return from the Cerska area confirmed
5 that the situation is not as black as previously painted. There are no
6 overt signs of a massacre, no obvious cases of malnutrition and some fuel
7 is available."
9 A. That is correct. That is consistent with -- Larry Hollingsworth
10 was with General Morillon when he went to Cerska, and this is what we
11 covered yesterday. This was --
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, could I have that marked as the
13 Defendant's next in order, please.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
15 exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
17 Exhibit D00190.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Next, if I could have, please, 1D02-6051.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, you are not tendering the first
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, I'm not. I'm not because the witness has no
22 familiarity with it.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH:
25 Q. I believe this is a document that you -- that you penned or
2 A. Yes, for General Morillon.
3 Q. Okay. Now, this, I believe, among other things refers to a
4 different mortar attack than the mortar attacks that we've been
5 previously discussing with regard to the Bosniak Army.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could turn to page 2. And if we could go
7 to the second paragraph.
8 Q. Before I ask you any questions with regard to the information
9 that is contained in paragraph 2, Colonel Siber, he was a member of the
10 which army?
11 A. Colonel Siber was a member of the Presidency army, in other
12 words, the ABiH. However, he was ethnically a Croat.
13 Q. Okay. And I thank you for that answer because, I think,
14 yesterday there may be some confusion with regard to his exact status,
15 so. In paragraph 2, there is a discussion concerning a mortar attack on
16 FRBAT2. Would that be FrenchBat 2?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. As I understand what occurred is that there was a fatality or
19 fatalities suffered as a result of a mortar attack by the Presidency on
20 an UNPROFOR unit, that being FrenchBat 2; correct?
21 A. There were casualties. I can't remember the exact details of how
22 many, and from the crater analysis carried out by a Canadian officer,
23 Major Itani [phoen], he was able to determine that those shells had not
24 been fired from -- or appeared as they had not been fired by the Bosnian
25 Serb side but by the ABiH side or from ABiH territory, to be absolutely
2 Q. In that paragraph there are a couple of noteworthy features,
3 which is, one, that there was apparently an argument about how you can
4 determine the direction from which a shell came by crater analysis;
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. And based upon your conversation with Colonel Siber at least as
8 late as February 1993, it would appear, and I'm using your words here, it
9 would appear that the BH Army is not aware of techniques of crater
10 analysis. That's what you state there, correct, sir? That's what you
11 state there?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. You also -- continuing in this paragraph, Colonel Siber says
14 there were unruly elements in and attached to the BH Army. Now, I take
15 it by that there was some discussion about whether or not he had control
16 over those individuals who may well have been responsible for this
17 attack, although there was not any specific identification of who those
18 individuals were; correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Also on -- turning to page 2 now, there's
21 also an indication -- oh, I shouldn't say -- I should say an indication
22 as well as a reporting of a BH Army infantry attack on Ilidza from Butmir
23 and Stup. And that's in paragraph (b) once it gets up on the screen.
24 And that's going to be right below the chart. Correct?
25 A. Sorry what is the question?
1 Q. That there was an attack on the 11th of February by the BH Army?
2 A. I cannot, sat here today, recall specific details, but if that's
3 what I wrote at the time, I did write that report, then that would be the
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Turning now to, I believe it will be the fifth
7 page. It will be the -- yes.
8 Q. Now, this is referring once again to that same fatal mortar
9 attack; correct? This is the report --
10 A. Yes, it looks like it, yeah.
11 Q. -- in a different form.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Turning now to the seventh page.
13 Q. This is the letter that was written -- I take it this is the
14 letter that you drafted on behalf of General Morillon?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Okay. And in this letter it's indicated in paragraph 1 that:
17 "It is sadly beyond doubt that your forces were responsible."
18 Correct? That's what you stated?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Okay. Which is slightly different from what you told us but a
21 moment a ago, when you had done an investigation and determination had
22 been made at the time; correct?
23 A. I think the difference was that that was a single determination,
24 a single instant, this is talking about a pattern.
25 Q. I see. This here is talking about a pattern of behaviour? I
1 see, okay.
2 And finally the last page which is also dated the
3 13th of February, this letter deals with a slightly different issue.
4 Yesterday, as you recall, we were talking about the independent and
5 unilateral decision of the UNHCR to not supply humanitarian aid. In this
6 situation what occurred, as I understand it from the letter, is that at
7 some point the Presidency made a determination that they were going
8 refuse humanitarian aid, and this caused some distress to
9 General Morillon, or that's what this letter states; right?
10 A. That's correct. The Presidency declared they were going to
11 refuse to receive humanitarian -- accept humanitarian aid elsewhere in
14 Q. And elsewhere in Bosnia
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I have that document marked as Defendant's
18 next in order, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
20 exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
22 Exhibit D191. Thank you.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: The next document I'd like to have up on the
24 screen if I could is 1D02-6044, please.
25 Q. This document is dated the 26th, and it concerns a series -- in
1 its subject matter of discussions with Mladic, and it's from an
2 individual by the name of Wahlgren.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it the 26th or 29th?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have the 26th, Your Honour, as the subject
5 discussions with Mladic -- I'm sorry, I understand your question. The
6 document is dated the 29th, it refers to conversations had with Mladic on
7 the 26th of March, 1993. Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are welcome.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH:
10 Q. And it's from a gentleman by the name of Wahlgren. First of all,
11 do you know who Wahlgren is?
12 A. Yes, he was the commander of UNPROFOR in Zagreb and he took over
13 from General Nambiar who was his predecessor.
14 Q. So then in terms of the -- in terms of the chain of command then,
15 he would have been above General Morillon?
16 A. General Morillon reported to General Wahlgren.
17 Q. Okay. Very well. With regard to this particular document --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could turn to the next page.
19 Q. What I'm just going to ask is whether or not this is a document
20 that you are familiar with, first of all?
21 A. No, I'm not familiar with the document because it was sent from
23 Q. Okay. With regard to --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could turn now to, then, page 4 of 6.
25 Q. There's a section here that says:
1 "Mladic says he wants peace but there were some requirements that
2 must be met."
3 He discusses the withdrawal of the Croatian forces which seems to
4 have been a relatively consistent theme from the time that you very --
5 you had your first encounter or meeting with him; correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. I'm going to skip B for the moment and go on to the next
8 paragraph, which says:
9 "He requested," that would be once again Mladic, "that a
10 cease-fire be organised by the coming together of military chiefs of all
11 four parties and suggested that in the interest of peace in the future,
12 that they all stick to it. He said that he had declared ..."
13 That would be Mladic, I take it?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. "... a cease-fire in 29 December 1992 and there was no response."
16 Are you aware, first of all, of this conversation with Wahlgren?
17 A. I was -- this is a document which looks as if it's a report about
18 the meeting with Mladic that I described yesterday. I was present at
19 that meeting.
20 Q. And is the information that's contained in what I just read
22 A. To the best of my knowledge and understanding, yes.
23 Q. Now, the next paragraph, it says:
24 "He ..."
25 Once again that would be Mladic?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. "... indicated UNPROFOR can count on his full support and
3 cooperation. He reiterated that it was a pity that we did not do what we
4 had discussed on the 3 March 1993
5 A. That I would have to look in my notes. I can't recall because
6 whenever Morillon met with Mladic, there were 10, 15 issues that they
7 discussed. And I would have to look in my notes in order to find out
8 what that was.
9 Q. I'm going to hold on that just because I'm pushing through as
10 quickly as I can; we'll try to get back to that one issue if we can. All
12 It goes on to say:
13 "He said that he was ready to let the Muslims go, if they so
14 wish, to Tuzla
16 despite the fact that the earlier cease-fire had been violated. The
17 following being his initiatives."
18 Then he goes on with the initiatives onto the next page. And
19 then the report, after we talk about his initiatives, A, which -- A or A,
20 B, C and D, then there is a report of those agreements that were
21 attempted to be obtained from him. Right?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Now, at this point in time - and by this point in time, I mean
24 March 26 of 1993 - a report had been made - had it not? - to the
25 United Nations Security Council with regard to the interim arrangements,
1 do you know what I'm referring to?
2 A. Not offhand.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have D155.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the fate of this one?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm going to move its admission. I will move its
7 admission. If we could have that marked as the Defendant's next in
8 order, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Its admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D192.
12 Thank you.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH:
14 Q. This document which has previously been admitted in evidence is
15 the report of the Secretary-General on the activities of
16 The International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia peace talks on
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the reference of this document?
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's Defendant's 155.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH:
22 Q. And this is a document that discusses the efforts and
23 arrangements that have been made for a comprehensive peace concerning
24 pretty much everything that could be envisioned by the co-chairman. Are
25 you aware of the fact that there had been a myriad meetings between
1 pretty much the time that you first arrived, if not before, in Bosnia
2 certainly up to and including this report with regard to a comprehensive
3 peace plan that took into account such things as geographic boundaries,
4 the manner in which fuel, electricity would be regulated, the form of
5 government, et cetera?
6 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that, and I've met with Vance and Owen and
7 a number of others involved in those negotiations because they would come
8 to Sarajevo
9 members of the Presidency and Bosnian Serbs.
10 Q. Now, with regard to the issue of what would be the geographic
11 boundaries, was a map presented to all the parties and reported to the
12 United Nations Security Council with regard to how, I hate to use the
13 word, but how this region would be broken up or divided?
14 A. I did not personally see or hand over any maps, but I know maps
15 were being worked on. And that I know that -- that Lord Owen certainly
16 was involved with some maps, but I did not personally see those maps.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not sure, and I'll have to double-check, give
18 me but a second. I'm just double-checking because it's a relatively long
19 document; I want to give you the proper page in e-court that we should be
20 pulling up. Perfect, the system does work. If we could please have
21 page 24 in e-court of this document.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have seen that map.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. Okay. And with regard to this map, does this map comport with
25 the map that you claim to have seen when you spoke with Dr. Karadzic?
1 A. No, this map looks totally different.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Now, the map that you -- I'm -- the map
3 that you claim to have seen and discussed with Dr. Karadzic, is that a
4 map that -- that you reported about? Did you make a report about that?
5 A. I think I referred to it in one or two sentences, but did not
6 make a specific report. It was the rest of the meeting which was the
7 main subject of the reporting.
8 Q. Okay. Now, I just want to make sure about something before I go
9 any further, because I want to make sure that what I have seen of your
10 notes is an accurate reflection of what you turned over to the
11 Prosecution. So I ask you the following question which is: Are all the
12 notes that you brought with you that were the subject matter of some
13 discussion a couple of days ago, the self-same notes that you turned over
14 to the Prosecution? There's nothing new in those notes?
15 A. No, there isn't.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. One comment I would make is that those notes are not every single
18 page of notes I made while I was in Bosnia
19 of when I didn't have that note or those notebooks with me, and those
20 notes I no longer have.
21 Q. Now, with regard to -- with regard to the issue that I'm
22 referring to right now which is this meeting that you had with
23 Dr. Karadzic in which you claim that there was this discussion about a
24 very specific map, which has been specifically identified, that was a
25 pretty important piece of information, was it not? It's the kind of
1 piece of information that would be indicative of what the intent of
2 parties were and how one was to negotiate and what kinds of expectations
3 could be seen with regard to, among other things, your mandate; right?
4 A. In hindsight, you are correct. At that time this map was brought
5 out - I'm referring to the census map - was brought out by Karadzic and
6 General Mladic effectively during the coffee break in between the
7 meeting. And one of the things that happened in --
8 Q. Sorry, you're well past my question. You said in hindsight it
9 was, but I take it at the time it was not?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. I see. And this map is a map that you referred to in the
12 testimony that you have given previously?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I see. So just so we are clear for purposes of the record, a
15 document which you've specifically identified there are no notes of, you
16 have testified at least thrice in these proceedings and you have never
17 raised this issue before; correct?
18 A. Yeah, I was not asked about it.
19 Q. I understand that you were not -- I understand that that's a kind
20 of stock response here when dealing with matters that are somewhat
21 critical, but that's not my question.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
23 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I would ask that Mr. Guy-Smith be
24 prohibitive from being argumentative with the witness in regards to the
25 "stock" answers and allegations against this witness.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: No comment.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please do make sure that you don't.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH:
5 Q. Now, with regard to the second map that you claim to have seen,
6 the Vinko map, I take it that we have the same situation? There are no
7 notes, and you've never testified about it before?
8 A. I'm unclear of what you mean by Vinko map.
9 Q. Sorry, my apologies. Pandurevic map. The map that you --
10 A. Oh right. No, of course not. That was a map which was in his
11 headquarters on his wall and which I only saw for five minutes.
12 Q. I see. And so you saw the map and as you've told us here because
13 these are two things that have featured prominently in your testimony
14 here before us, you saw the map for about five minutes; there are no
15 notes that you took with regard to the map; correct?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. You made -- you didn't make a report to anybody concerning
18 the map, which is as a matter of fact, excuse me, which as a matter of
19 fact is relatively critical as regards what is occurring specifically in
20 terms of your mandate?
21 A. The Pandurevic map, I did report and we did report.
22 Q. I see. When?
23 A. In -- I can't, sat here now today, say when, but in the next
24 report that I was sending from the -- from that area. If you recall, I
25 said yesterday that we were regularly radioing in reports. And in one of
1 those reports that would have been included.
2 Q. I'm going to move to another topic, which is you indicated that
3 there was a convoy of humanitarian aid that was stuck, that had come from
5 A. Which convoys are you referring to?
6 Q. The one that was on the -- I believe it was stuck at the Zvornik
8 A. Yes, the convoys which came from -- which were stuck at the
9 Zvornik bridge always came from Belgrade
10 Q. I see. So we are clear, humanitarian aid that had been
11 determined was necessary for this area was emanating from Belgrade, and
12 by that I mean geographically came from that region, and it was stuck,
13 meaning that the Bosnian Serbs, for whatever their reasons may be,
14 refused to let it pass?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who it came from in the Belgrade
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was flown into Belgrade airport and UNHCR
20 had a big depo at Belgrade
21 So it was -- the UN traffic was virtually the only traffic through the
22 airport. And it was then trucked from Belgrade airport down to Zvornik.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sorry, I'm trying to be efficient.
1 Q. Let us return now to Morillon after he has come back from Cerska
2 at which point he has a conversation with Oric, and once again to set the
3 stage, he had been told by Oric of the horrors that we discussed
4 yesterday including many wounded and people being put in houses and
5 burned, and he came back and spoke to Oric about this and said to Oric --
6 A. Can I just clarify? Are you talking about when General Morillon
7 spoke with Oric in Konjevic Polje literally hours after he came back from
8 Cerska, or do you mean when he spoke with Oric in Srebrenica about eight
9 or ten days later?
10 Q. I believe I'm referring to the first conversation.
11 A. So in Konjevic Polje literally a couple of hours after he had
12 been in -- yeah, okay.
13 Q. In that conversation he indicated to Commander Oric that he had
14 been in the area, he had seen what he had seen, and that the reports that
15 were made were grossly exaggerated, if not in some senses false; correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. Okay. Now, Oric -- Oric's reply, as least as I understand it
18 from prior testimony, was he shrugged his shoulders and said, Well, I
19 heard it from a bunch of my soldiers.
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. I never checked it out.
22 A. He wasn't able to go into Cerska.
23 Q. And that was pretty much the end that have as far as he was
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Allegation was made, turned out not to be true, no big deal;
3 A. Effectively.
4 Q. Okay. Now, same conversation was also had with
5 President Izetbegovic and I believe Mr. Ganic at a later point in time?
6 A. Yes, about a day later.
7 Q. Okay. And once again, the same information was conveyed to
8 Izetbegovic and to Ganic that the information that had been relayed, the
9 information that in many senses was the causative factor for you
10 marshalling the helicopters and going into the region turned out to be
11 not only not accurate, but in certain regards palpably false; correct?
12 A. In the way you describe it, yes, but had there been heavy
13 fighting? Had there been casualties caused? Yes there were. Were there
14 people that were starving? Yes there were.
15 Q. That's not the issue, my friend, and we both well know it. The
16 issue is the question of burned bodies and the horrors of the falling of
17 Cerska and the need for immediate intervention because of the horrors
18 that had been occasioned in the area by the Bosnian Serbs.
19 A. Yeah, on that specific you are correct.
20 Q. I am correct.
21 A. Yes, you are.
22 Q. So did President Izetbegovic take the same kind of position that
23 Commander Oric took which was, you know, I got the information from other
24 people but I never checked it out?
25 A. President Izetbegovic thanked General Morillon for going in and
1 for confirming that there had not been this massacre. However, that it
2 looked as if the crisis was unfolding in Srebrenica and asked
3 General Morillon to go back to Srebrenica, which is where
4 General Morillon also reported that whilst there had been reports of 700
5 injured in Konjevic Polje and that he only found 73, or rather
6 Dr. Mardell only found 73 --
7 Q. I'm sorry, you are not answering my question, sir.
8 A. Yes, I am.
9 Q. No. My question was:
10 "So did President Izetbegovic take the same kind of position that
11 Commander Oric took which was, I got the information from other people
12 but I never checked it out?"
13 And I'm referring to to that specific issue.
14 A. No, it is you who added the context, but I never checked it out.
15 The issue is that President Izetbegovic was surrounded in Sarajevo and
16 was in no position to go and do any checking out. As you somewhat
17 facilely put it.
18 Q. Well, let me put it to you in other terms then, sir. Did he
19 indicate to you after he was told that the information that he received
20 was inaccurate and in some regards palpably false, what he had done in
21 order to determine the accuracy of the information that he was giving to
22 you upon which he was asking you to operate? Did he say who he had
23 talked to, what had been done, how can we stop this from happening again?
24 Because as we both know, and it's an old saw, truth is one of the
25 casualties, not necessarily first, but one of the casualties of war. So
1 did he discuss that matter with you? So how to fix this?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Carter.
3 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I would object to this being a compound
4 question and more so a compound speech. And I would ask that the witness
5 to be asked a single question at a time and being allowed to answer.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please, Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH:
10 Q. Did he, President Izetbegovic, indicate that he was concerned to
11 you about the fact that you had received incorrect and palpably false
12 information with regard to what was occurring in Cerska, yes or no?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did he, President Izetbegovic, discuss with you a way, a
15 mechanism whereby wild rumours could be avoided with regard to such
16 things as war crimes and humanitarian crises as exemplified with Cerska?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I'd like to talk to you for a moment, if I could, about what I
19 think is fairly characterised as the night-attempted escapes from
21 A. Yes, I'm familiar.
22 Q. And there are daily sitrep reports with regard to this issue,
23 which I think we are both aware of. But time is not our friend right
24 here, so I'm going to try to summarise what I understand was occurring.
25 In the night-time, hundreds of people on a nightly basis were
1 attempting to leave Sarajevo
2 A. That is correct. In the winter.
3 Q. Yes, in the winter. The majority of those people were men;
5 A. That I cannot testify to.
6 Q. When I say hundreds, would you agree with me, and I'm trying to
7 be conservative here, that what was occurring was there was a report of
8 approximately 300 to 400 people a night attempting to leave?
9 A. Yes, sometimes it was more, sometimes it was less.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. But it was large numbers.
12 Q. Okay. I'm trying to average it out. And what happened was that
13 they were stopped by the UNPROFOR unit at the airport, and I'm not sure
14 if they were either arrested or just turned back; do you know?
15 A. They were rounded up and taken back to where they came from.
16 Q. There came a point in time where this became a sufficient enough
17 problem that it was decided that it would no longer be reported about;
18 correct? The reporting was stopped?
19 A. Yes, but one of the main reasons reporting was stopped was not
20 simple because of the numbers but because of the numbers who were being
21 shot by Bosnian Serb snipers whilst they were trying to run across the
23 Q. I see. Now, with regard to the general situation and
24 assessment --
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could have 1D02-6159 which you will have as
1 probably pages 1 and 2 of 1D02-6025. What occurred here is there were --
2 it doesn't matter what occurred, I'm sure that Mr. Registrar will be able
3 to get to it.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you are looking for that, can I just ask
5 something for clarification. Are you saying the reason you stopped
6 reporting about this is because numbers were being shot by Bosnian Serb
7 snipers while they were trying to run across the airport? Wasn't that
8 kind of incident precisely the kind of thing that you were supposed to be
9 reporting, where people are being sniped at?
10 THE WITNESS: There was concern -- I don't recollect immediately
11 sat here, I'd need to go back into notes, what the specific logic was.
12 It was concern that people were trying to escape out of Sarajevo and
13 escape from the conditions and that people were being shot whilst trying
14 to escape. French soldiers were being shot at the same time.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But my question is, if you say you stopped
16 reporting because they were being sniped at, my question is: Was the
17 question of sniping not the very thing that you ought to be looking out
18 for and reporting and trying to avoid to the extent possible?
19 THE WITNESS: I would agree with you, sir. But nonetheless --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: But nonetheless you stopped reporting?
21 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would we call that dereliction of duty?
23 A. I was uncomfortable with it at the time, sir.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure. If we could have the next page, please.
2 Page 2. Go down to the bottom of the page.
3 Q. The bottom the page is an assessment which I think is discussing
4 the matter that we've been dealing with:
5 "Assessment: The nightly airport crossings are becoming an
6 increasing problem. Larger numbers of people (now mostly men) are
7 crossing. Dense fog and a new tactic of crossing in larger groups result
8 in more people slipping past FREBAT soldiers who are being overwhelmed.
9 The danger is that as more men slip from one side to the other, the Serbs
10 may decide that UNPROFOR is unable to stop the flow of potential fighters
11 and intervene with fire, placing UN troops at risk and escalating the
12 conflict. As well, FREBAT finds its soldiers working day (escorting aid,
13 et cetera) and night (stopping crossings), a negotiated settlement is
14 essential although this seems unlikely. A separate report will be sent
15 on this critical situation."
16 Is that a fair --
17 A. Yeah, that's a --
18 Q. Fair encapsulation of the problem and the situation that we are
19 referring to?
20 A. And goes some way to not giving full answers, but partial answers
21 to your earlier question, sir.
22 Q. I want to focus for a moment on what I understood your testimony
23 to be with regard to what you were doing and why you were doing it, okay?
24 And I'd like to refer you to something that you've previously said and
25 see whether or not this is consistent with what you've been talking about
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I'm referring Court and counsel to
3 IT-03-68 pages 5838 and 5839.
4 Q. You were asked the following question by a representative of the
6 "Thank you. Now, you have given evidence of some of the
7 objective of your trip." And this is your trip to Srebrenica. "Were
8 they the principal objectives, namely, facilitation of the aid convoy,
9 facilitation of cease-fires, deployment of UNMOs or military observers,
10 and evacuation of the injured. Is that a --"
11 And your answer is:
12 "Those are the four objectives, though I put them in a different
13 order. I would put them in the order of ..."
14 And one, the first point is:
15 "Deploy UNMOs first because you need them to have a cease-fire,
16 and you needed the cease-fire in order to get the humanitarian aid
17 through in order to evacuate the injured."
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Okay. And as a matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, when you
20 first began your conversations with Bosnian Serb representatives, and
21 specifically with Mladic, the issue that was at hand was the issue of a
22 cease-fire, the cessation of hostilities?
23 A. You mean in all of Bosnia
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Yes, that would have made it much easier to get humanitarian aid
1 through to where it was needed.
2 Q. Indeed so. I told you that we would get back to the issue of
3 demilitarisation yesterday, and I would like to deal with
4 demilitarisation with you now.
5 When you were in Srebrenica in March, this would be of 1993, you
6 had discussions with both the war committee of Srebrenica and Commander
7 Oric cap? Concerning demilitarisation, did you not?
8 A. We did.
9 Q. Now, before we discuss what those were, who or what was the war
10 committee of Srebrenica, to your knowledge?
11 A. To my knowledge, it was the mayor of Srebrenica and a number of
12 other councillors, whether they are elected or not, I have no idea.
13 There was also a doctor from the Srebrenica hospital, and there were a
14 couple of military people. However, they were not Naser Oric.
15 Q. The subject matter of demilitarisation was something that was
16 important for purposes of seeing what could be done in obtaining a
17 cease-fire; correct?
18 A. It was one of the angles in to how you would achieve a
20 Q. Because obviously if an area is demilitarised, there's no
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The war committee, after some discussion, I believe, agreed to
24 demilitarise Srebrenica; correct?
25 A. That was after I left.
1 Q. Okay. I'm talking about during the period of time you were
2 there. They were inclined, perhaps I've been too strong, they were
3 inclined to demilitarise while you were there in your discussions with
5 A. They -- to the best of my recollection, it was something they
6 were considering; Morillon had asked them. But by the time that -- at
7 the time that I left, I don't think a decision had been made on that
9 Q. Oric was vehemently opposed to demilitarisation?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what Oric's position was was that there would be no
12 demilitarisation and he would fight to the last man standing; correct?
13 A. I don't think he used those words, but that's what it boiled down
15 Q. Okay. Now, during the time that that issue was being discussed,
16 to your knowledge was Oric involved in either offensive actions or raids
17 against the --
18 A. I do not know of specific raids or actions, but when Morillon
19 asked Oric were his people still carrying out attacks in general, Oric
20 said, Yes, they were. How do you think I'm getting -- we are getting the
21 ammunition and weapons with which to defend ourselves?
22 Q. And as a matter of fact what was occurring is that the Bosnian
23 Serbs were using the Oric attacks and/or raids, however you wish to call
24 them, as a basis for continuing their efforts against Srebrenica? I'm
25 not saying -- you know, that's what was going on. I'm not putting any
1 value on it, but that's what was being said to you?
2 A. Yes, that's what was going on and went on in Bosnia all the time.
3 Q. And as a matter of fact you were told by the Bosnian Serbs that
4 Oric and his men were massacring and killing civilians, and that would be
5 Serb civilians; correct?
6 A. What the Bosnian Serbs said is that civilians had been massacred
7 in January, we've already covered some of that ground. At this time, in
8 other words, in March when we were in Srebrenica, the Bosnian Serbs said
9 that, if I remember, between 7 and 15 people were being killed every
11 Q. And in that -- when you had a discussion with Oric about this,
12 Oric said that, and I don't know if these were exact words, but something
13 to the effect of, you know, Perhaps my men are a bit vengeful, so when
14 it's only necessary to kill one, we kill two, two for one?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. And he acknowledged that that was not the best thing in the world
17 but he didn't know whether or not he could get his troops to stop
18 engaging in that kind of behaviour; right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Okay. Now, on the other side of this there was a meeting, and I
21 think this is around the time of March 15th, there was a discussion in
22 which Morillon was to have said that, I believe you noted this.
23 "I know you wish to clean out this nest of terrorists. I will do
24 it for you and save you many, many casualties."
25 Now, all I care about for the moment, is that something that
1 Morillon said to Bosnian Serbs?
2 A. Sat here now today, I recollect something along those lines,
3 whether the words "this nest of terrorists" were used specifically, I
4 can't remember. But what I do remember was that what Morillon was
5 appealing to was, Stop attacking them; I will try and stop them attacking
7 Q. Okay. Let me see if I can be of some help to you.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm referring Court and counsel to page 5984
9 IT-03-68 in which you were asked the following question and you give the
10 following answers. Now, if we go a bit further down you have
11 line 16 to 18:
12 "I know you wish to clean out this nest of terrorists, I will do
13 it for you and save you many many casualties.
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. That's General Morillon speaking to the Serbs and referring
16 to Srebrenica as the nest of terrorists; is that correct?
17 "A. He was speaking in language the Serbs would understand. That
18 was the language which the Serbs had been using for General Morillon to
19 refer to them, otherwise it would have been difficult in the
21 So you give an explanation of why he used that language; right?
22 A. Yes, that makes sense.
23 Q. And that is something that he said? And I'm just talking about
24 the bald words that were used.
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Whatever interpretation we put on them is something entirely
2 different, but those were the bald words that he used?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could have but a moment.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do.
7 [Defence counsel confers]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. I tried to make good my promise.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 Madam Carter, any re-examination?
12 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour, briefly.
13 Re-examination by Ms. Carter:
14 Q. Sir, today you were asked about the maps in both Karadzic's
15 office as well as in Pandurevic's office and when you actually reported
16 those items.
17 MS. CARTER: I would like to now bring up 1D02-5546.
18 Q. Sir, did you give a statement to the Office of the Prosecution
19 beginning on 6 and 7 September and then later carrying on both in 2001
20 and 2002?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MS. CARTER: I'd like to move to page 23 of the statement.
24 Q. Sir, in the middle of the page we began a conversation in regard
25 to Srebrenica in March of 1993. At that time you told the
1 Office of the Prosecution that:
2 "I later learned that this offensive had been launched on
3 7 February when Morillon and I happened to be in the office of major
4 Pandurevic, in a Bosnian Serb army barracks just outside of Zvornik.
5 Pandurevic had maps on his wall that detailed the Bosnian Serb Army's
6 advance on the eastern enclaves, and these had dates and lines on them
7 which showed how far the advance had progressed."
8 Are these the one in the same maps that you testified to in court
9 these past days?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Thank you, sir.
12 MS. CARTER: I would now like to turn to Exhibit D192.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you go to D192, what would you like to
14 happen to ID02-5546?
15 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, we don't need to tender this in
16 evidence. I merely wanted to point out to -- or make a clarification of
17 the record that the veiled allegations of fabrication were unfounded and
18 that he had in fact reported not only to --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, yes, I believe that as a matter of fact,
21 the redirect as posed did not deal with the specific question asked which
22 was, Was there reportage of it? Which is different than having a
23 conversation with the Prosecution about it.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess, yeah, that's a question of argument.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Obviously it's a question for your -- obviously
1 that's a question for your determination.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, as I say, it's a question for argument.
3 Madam Carter.
4 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you asked for D192.
6 MS. CARTER: Yes, please.
7 Q. Sir, you were questioned on the meeting of 26 March 1993 and this
8 report on 29 March of 1993.
9 MS. CARTER: I'd like to turn to page 5 of this report. At the
10 bottom of the page.
11 Q. Sir, at the end of your meeting with Mladic, there's an
12 indication that there was a meeting with General Panic which followed.
13 Can you please tell us who General Panic is?
14 A. General Panic, my understanding, was the Chief of Staff of the
15 Serb military in Belgrade
16 Q. Turning to the following page, there's an indication that the
17 meeting actually involved both Panic and Mladic at the same time; is that
19 A. I believe so.
20 Q. And, sir, this report is indicating that Panic stated that the
21 warring parties in BH, Bosnia-Herzegovina, should be separated on the
22 lines of which they now stand; is that correct? It's in the third
24 A. To be honest, I can't specifically remember, sat here now today,
25 of what was specifically said at that meeting 17 years ago. However, it
1 is consistent with everything else that -- that was being said again and
3 Q. And being said by whom, sir?
4 A. Being said by the Bosnian Serbs.
5 Q. Okay. What about the Belgrade
6 A. I cannot specifically remember that.
7 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, I want to turn to some of the examination
8 from yesterday in which you were discussing with Mr. Guy-Smith the
9 cessation or suspension of the UNHCR convoys into Srebrenica on or about
10 17 November 1992
11 that the circumstances were a bit more complicated than what was being
12 asked of you in court today.
13 Can you please tell me, what was complicating the situations in
14 regards to those humanitarian aid convoys?
15 A. There were many factors complicating the humanitarian aid
17 Q. I'll ask a more specific question. The question that you were
18 being asked or a clause that was being asked of you on page 9255 at
19 line 5 is that Mladic had imposed particular conditions upon the convoy
20 being able to travel. Can you please tell the Court what conditions were
21 being placed on the humanitarian aid to be received in the eastern
23 A. That General Mladic wanted equivalent aid to be delivered to
24 Bosnian Serb refugees to which General Morillon's and UNHCR's answer was
25 that the statistics showed that the Bosnian Serbs were receiving as much
1 if not more aid than the Bosnian Muslims. There were other factors as
3 Q. Okay.
4 MS. CARTER: I would like to call up now 1D02-6111.
5 Q. Sir, do you recognise this letter?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we see the conclusion of the letter, please.
7 THE WITNESS: See who it's signed by. Yes, I think I recall this
9 MS. CARTER:
10 Q. And this letter was being addressed to both Mladic as well as
11 Karadzic, was it not?
12 A. I would need to have a look at the first page.
13 MS. CARTER: If we can move back to the first page, please. And
14 if we move down just a bit further, there will also be the cc lines.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 MS. CARTER:
17 Q. And at that time, you were indicating to Mladic and Karadzic in
18 detail that the Bosnian Serbs were actually receiving more humanitarian
19 aid than the Muslims; isn't that correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just get clear. We just saw the signatory
22 to this letter, was it you? I didn't think it was your name.
23 THE WITNESS: No, it was Mendiluce.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I hear Madam Carter says you just indicated.
25 Are you saying indicated in this letter, ma'am?
1 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour, he had actually responded
2 previously in regards to my question about the humanitarian aid and the
3 preconditions that were being placed upon it. And he had said that one
4 of the conditions was that they wanted more aid to go to the Bosnian
5 Serbs and that actually they had been receiving more --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: More, correct.
7 MS. CARTER: I would have to get the specific line reference.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think the issue is whether or not is
9 Colonel Tucker who made the indication or whether or not it was the
10 signatory of the letter, that would have been Mr. Mendiluce, and I
11 believe it was Mr. Mendiluce who made the specific indication to Karadzic
12 with the letter copied to Mladic with regard to where aid was going and
13 what was the percentage of the that aid, and it's not the issue of you,
14 the "you" is Mendiluce.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I --
16 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I'm actually following up on the point
17 that Colonel Tucker made in his own testimony today at page --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. But you see, when you do that after you've
19 just put up a letter for us to look at, and we've just looked at who the
20 signatory of the letter is, the impression you are giving us is that in
21 this letter that's what is being indicated, and I would like you to
22 separate the two if that is possible, please.
23 MS. CARTER: Certainly.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And while you do that, look at the time.
25 MS. CARTER: Thank you. I'm happy to take up this line after the
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: After the break. Okay. We'll take a break and
3 come back at quarter to. Court adjourned.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Carter.
7 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Sir, still addressing 1D02-6111, the letter of Mendiluce in the
9 opening paragraphs there's an indication that he is referring to a
10 meeting that took place between General Mladic and General Morillon on
11 15 November, 1992
12 Mr. Guy-Smith yesterday in regards it to the humanitarian aid convoys?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. He goes on to describe the preconditions that were being placed
15 on these convoys. Are those the preconditions that were being set out to
16 you in that meeting?
17 A. Yes, they are.
18 Q. Okay. And are you aware of UNHCR's response to these
20 A. Yes, I am.
21 Q. Okay. And as the response is set out in this letter, you are
22 familiar with those facts?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. CARTER: I tender this document into evidence.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: No objection.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
2 exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
4 Exhibit P2695, thank you.
5 MS. CARTER: The final topic --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second.
7 Why is it a D, sir? Oh P. P269 -- thank you.
8 MS. CARTER:
9 Q. Sir, as a final topic, I'd like to discuss with you the testimony
10 from yesterday in regards to the Muslim prohibition of help into
12 Can you please tell me where did the gas line from heating run?
13 A. The heating gas lines came from Russia through Serbia
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and down into Sarajevo
15 Q. And who turned off those gas lines?
16 A. My understanding is that the gas was either turned off in Serbia
17 proper, or in Serb-held territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could just have clarification with regard
20 to Serb-held territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina, would that be Bosnian Serb?
21 THE WITNESS: Bosnian Serb held territory, yes.
22 MS. CARTER:
23 Q. Now, you also described in your previous testimony and you
24 touched on it in yesterday's testimony about the Muslim populations who
25 were responsible for, as was used by Judge Orie, the exploitation of
1 misery. Who were these people who were trying to exploit the situation
2 in Sarajevo
3 A. We did not have clear evidence as to named people. However, it
4 was our conclusion that there were extremist radicals who would go to any
5 lengths in order to try and achieve their objectives.
6 Q. What was the Presidency's position in regards to the conditions
7 of the Sarajevans?
8 A. The Presidency's position was that the position of their citizens
9 in Sarajevo
10 should be made by the international community in order to ensure that the
11 situation was improved, their citizens would no longer be under attack,
12 and that they would be able to live safe lives free of fear, and with
13 sufficient food, et cetera, to be able to live and survive.
14 MS. CARTER: If I may have one moment to consult with counsel.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MS. CARTER: That completes my redirect. Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you Madam Carter.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE PICARD: [No interpretation]
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, I -- excuse me, Judge, my apologies but you
21 are not getting interpreted. There's no interpretation on the screen.
22 But also it indicates page 37, line 15, there's no interpretation. So
23 your question is -- I'm rising in order so your question becomes part of
24 the record, Your Honour, otherwise the question will be asked, but I
25 don't think it will appear on the record, which I don't think is what you
1 want to have occur.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe repeat your question.
5 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I'll repeat my question. Namely,
6 that the international community in March of 1993 had a perception, had
7 an impression that the Muslim population in the Srebrenica enclave will
8 be a victim of the genocide, that genocide was being prepared at the
9 time. Bearing in mind that situation, was this discussed, did they
10 consider the possibility of evacuating the civilian population from the
12 A. Yes, they did.
13 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And who came out with that
14 possibility? Who discussed it?
15 THE WITNESS: The Bosnian Serbs suggested it, and they created
16 linkage between permitting people to be evacuated from Srebrenica,
17 provided that Bosnian Serbs who were inside Tuzla would also be allowed
18 to be evacuated out of the Bosnian Muslim held territory into Bosnian
19 Serb held territory. That was one linkage.
20 The second linkage was that the Bosnian Serbs nonetheless
21 insisted on questioning every single male of combatant age who was
22 evacuated -- who would be evacuated from Srebrenica in order to ascertain
23 whether or not that person was a "war criminal" guilty of the massacres
24 of Bosnian Serb villagers in January.
25 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So their solution was discarded?
1 A. No, it was partially attempted. The first attempt was the
2 evacuation of Bosnian Serbs out of Tuzla
3 that General Morillon went to Tuzla
4 However, the Tuzla
5 reluctant to permit this because they, from their perspective, they
6 claimed that this would be paramount to them, the Bosnian Muslims,
7 condoning ethnic cleansing, which was not something that they agreed
9 Nonetheless, I believe that they allowed a small number of
10 Bosnian Serbs, my recollection is something like 40, to leave Tuzla
11 go to Zvornik, and they did so in a convoy immediately after
12 General Morillon when he left Tuzla
13 The second aspect is that on the convoy -- the humanitarian aid
14 convoy which reached Srebrenica around the 26th of March, that convoy on
15 its way out of Srebrenica took with it about 600 women and children and
16 old men, who were then taken out through -- from Srebrenica to Zvornik,
17 and I believe that the convoy then went on to Tuzla. I believe they
18 discharged those people in Tuzla
19 convoy because they -- no men of combatant age.
20 I was present when that convoy left, and I was present when the
21 Serbs checked the convoy at the Yellow Bridge
22 there were any men of combat. There was -- the next convoy in -- when it
23 left there were - this is a matter of public record - there are
24 television reports of hysterical people from Srebrenica desperately
25 trying to climb onto these trucks in Srebrenica in order to be evacuated,
1 and I believe that a number of people were squashed and killed in the
3 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And following this first
4 evacuation from Tuzla
5 A. Yes, there were also, I believe, but again it's after I left,
6 there were also further helicopter evacuations of injured of --
7 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I can understand for the injured,
8 but with regard to the civilian population in general, were there any
9 more attempts?
10 A. That was then after my time, and I would not be in a position
11 to --
12 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Why were there no longer any
14 A. Sorry, I do not know whether there were or were not any further
15 attempts. My last knowledge is of the hysterical behaviour which led to
16 people being crushed. I do not know if there were any more attempts
17 afterwards. I am not aware of any.
18 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE DAVID: Colonel Tucker, yesterday at page 10, line 9 to 12,
20 you were asked by the Prosecution was the Srebrenica enclave being
21 covered in international and local media. And your answer said, Yes, it
23 Could you elaborate further on this point, make comments
24 according to your experience of those days as to the extent and
25 repercussions of this international and local coverage in the media.
1 A. The -- my understanding or my knowledge of the coverage, that is,
2 I need to separate between Serb coverage, between Bosnian Muslim
3 coverage, and international coverage.
4 Bosnian -- sorry, Serb coverage on the day after that we arrived
5 in Srebrenica was reporting that General Morillon and the UN team had
6 been captured by the Bosnian Muslims and were being held hostage by the
7 Bosnian Muslims and that Serb forces were attacking towards Srebrenica in
8 order to rescue General Morillon.
9 The local Bosnian Muslim, by this I mean "Oslobodenje," and local
10 radio in the Tuzla
11 on the Srebrenica enclave and that -- people dying, that the
12 United Nations had sent a team there and was trying to facilitate the
13 delivery of humanitarian aid.
14 The international community, there had been a big outcry in the
15 international community about General Morillon's comments about after he
16 came back from his visit to Cerska where he had said that he had not
17 smelled the smell of burnt human flesh, and that was widely reported in
18 the international media at the time. And when General Morillon went back
19 into Tuzla
20 very angrily, verbally attacked by the commander of the Muslim forces in
22 all in the international media.
23 When we went into Srebrenica the second time -- went into
24 Srebrenica for the first time, which was the second time into the
25 enclave, there was a pause and then for about a day and a half and then
1 the international media started reporting that General Morillon was in
2 Srebrenica establishing what was going on.
3 The major story which hit the international news was
4 General Morillon's declaration that he made around the
5 13th/14th of March, which was referred to in testimony yesterday. And
6 which -- at the end of which General Morillon declared that Srebrenica
7 was under the protection of the United Nations.
8 At that speech that General Morillon gave from the PTT building
9 in Srebrenica, there were, as I said, a couple of journalists, and they
10 immediately after that speech were permitted by the Srebrenica war
11 committee to use the radio equipment in the PTT building in Srebrenica in
12 order to speak with people in Sarajevo
13 about that story.
14 And then there was a lot of international discussion back and
15 forth about whether it was right or wrong or -- to be declaring a
16 protected area, which has some -- there are some definitions about that
17 and whether General Morillon was entitled to make such a statement.
18 And the progress of discussions around the Srebrenica enclaves
19 and attacks and fighting were daily reported in international media. I
20 spoke by radio, by satellite radio, with my wife whilst I was in
21 Srebrenica, and she told me that she had been reading about all these
22 things in media from our home back in Germany.
23 Does that answer your question, sir?
24 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you very much. Yes. No more questions.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the questions by the
2 Madam Carter.
3 MS. CARTER: A single question.
4 Further Re-examination by Ms. Carter:
5 Q. Sir, were scenes from Srebrenica being broadcast on these
6 television reports?
7 A. Only later. And by "later" what I mean is the -- it was --
8 television was only brought into Srebrenica together with the later
9 humanitarian aid convoys, and that is how the scenes from the hysterical
10 refugees tried to clamber onto the trucks was recorded.
11 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: One question.
14 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
15 Q. You indicated that there was Serb coverage, that you had been
16 captured by Bosnian Muslims. I'm going to read something from your
17 statement and see if that's what you are referring to.
18 "On March 12th the situation changed completely. The crowd of
19 refugees around the PTT building where we had spent the night had been
20 growing and becoming increasingly hostile. As one stage, as I pushed my
21 way through the with Mihailov, he told me the refugees were arguing
22 amongst each other whether we should be killed immediately or whether we
23 served any purpose in being kept alive. I also noticed a number of
24 Bosniak soldiers setting up three heavy 12.7 mms," that's millimetre I
25 guess? Thank you. "... millimetre machine-guns on tripods in positions
1 to cover the road back the way we had come."
2 Is that information that -- oh, I'm sorry, "... some more took up
3 positions with hand-held anti-tank rockets."
4 Is that information that you transmitted over any radio
5 communication to anyone concerning your condition when you were telling
6 us about you doing your hourly reporting?
7 A. Yes, I did report that information together with much other
8 information over this HF radio that I've referred to. It was a UNHCR
9 unencrypted radio, and we were aware that the Bosnian Serbs were
10 certainly intercepting everything that we transmitted and sometimes
11 jamming us as well.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Colonel, that brings us to the end of your
14 testimony. Thank you so much for taking the time to come and testify.
15 You are now excused. You may stand down. Please travel well back home.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Carter.
18 MS. CARTER: May I be excused from the remainder of the session
19 so I may bid farewell to Colonel Tucker?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, ma'am.
21 MS. CARTER: Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no more witnesses
24 for this week.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: For this week.
1 MR. SAXON: Yes.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: To what day do we adjourn? To Monday next week?
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, we are waiting on some decisions of the
4 Trial Chamber with respect to potential remaining witnesses. It is the
5 Prosecution's projection that -- well, we are in the Chamber's hands. We
6 are in the Chamber's hands because there are pending motions for three
7 witnesses, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. The Chamber is working on those motions,
9 and it will give its decision, but other than that --
10 MR. SAXON: Other than that we do not have additional witnesses,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are then going to have to postpone sine die and
13 the parties will be warned. Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned sine die at
15 11.08 a.m.