Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9278

 1                           Wednesday, 30 September 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

12     today starting with the Prosecution, please.

13             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon, April Carter,

14     and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And for the Defence.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Daniela Tasic,

17     Chad Mair, Tina Drolec, Novak Lukic, and Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of

18     Mr. Perisic.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Colonel Tucker, I know you

20     know it but I must remind you, you are still bound by the declaration you

21     made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole

22     truth, and nothing else but the truth.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Mr. Guy-Smith, before you start, just to remind the parties that

Page 9279

 1     we are probably going to sit for one and a half sessions today, we don't

 2     have interpreters.  And if you are able to indicate how long you are

 3     going to be so that maybe the Registrar might start arranging for

 4     recalling Colonel Tucker or postponing to a date where Colonel Tucker

 5     could be able to attend, otherwise, Mr. Saxon, you may have to recall

 6     him, if we don't finish with him.  Thank you.  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Would you like me to address that question first,

 8     Your Honour?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you are able to very briefly.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very briefly, I hope to be, if things go as

11     planned, I hope to be done within a session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I have no idea what the redirect is.

14             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I have two subject matters to address

15     with the colonel, so it should be very short.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           WITNESS:  PYERS TUCKER [Resumed]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:  [Continued]

21        Q.   Colonel Tucker, with the notion of time for the moment not being

22     our friend, I'm going to move to another subject quickly in an attempt to

23     expedite matters.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have 1D02-5508 up on the screen,

25     please.

Page 9280

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Something is funny here, I don't hear you through

 2     my earphones.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Do you hear me --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hear you like that but not here.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You don't hear me?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Try again.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.  Can you hear me now?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's better.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes?  Excellent.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That was 1D02-5508.

12        Q.   What I'm going to do right now is I'm going to show you a series

13     of documents, most of which cover matters that we have discussed already,

14     and I'd like you to take a look at them briefly, if you could, and then

15     see whether or not these are documents that are familiar to you and the

16     information contained therein is information of which you know.  Okay?

17             The first document obviously, as you can tell is an UNMO

18     briefing.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could turn to the next -- dated

20     16th November, 1993.  Could we turn to the next page.  Just go to the

21     top.

22        Q.   Now, as I understand, this would be at a time when you were no

23     longer in the region; correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   Okay.  So this is not a document that you are familiar with?

Page 9281

 1        A.   It's the type of document I'm familiar with, but this one, no.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Thank you very much.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could now have up on the screen, please,

 4     1D02-5778.

 5        Q.   The next document I'm going to show you is from the headquarters

 6     of United Kingdom land forces.  It's -- the date is the

 7     10th of March, 1993.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And if we could scroll down to the first

 9     paragraph which is 1(a).

10        Q.   I don't know if you -- can you read that?

11        A.   Yes, I can.

12        Q.   And that indicates that:

13             "The Muslim counter-offensive in response to the fall of Cerska

14     continues but without marked success."

15             Is this information that you reported?

16        A.   No, this is information which was reported by the

17     British battalion which had forces -- or had troops up in the Tuzla

18     pocket, if I remember they were commanded by a major Abrahams and his

19     unit was reporting both to United Nations in other words to Kiseljak but

20     was also sending independent UK national reports to the UK.

21        Q.   All right.  And turning to the next page which is page 2,

22     paragraph (b).  I believe you at one point mentioned the name of a

23     gentleman, Mr. Hollingsworth?

24        A.   Yeah, I can't see --

25        Q.   It hasn't come up yet, unfortunately.

Page 9282

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's page 3.  There we go.  Great.  Thank you

 2     so much.

 3        Q.   Paragraph (b) states:

 4             "Mr. Larry Hollingsworth on return from the Cerska area confirmed

 5     that the situation is not as black as previously painted.  There are no

 6     overt signs of a massacre, no obvious cases of malnutrition and some fuel

 7     is available."

 8             Correct?

 9        A.   That is correct.  That is consistent with -- Larry Hollingsworth

10     was with General Morillon when he went to Cerska, and this is what we

11     covered yesterday.  This was --

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, could I have that marked as the

13     Defendant's next in order, please.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an

15     exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

17     Exhibit D00190.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Next, if I could have, please, 1D02-6051.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, you are not tendering the first

20     document?

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, I'm not.  I'm not because the witness has no

22     familiarity with it.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:

25        Q.   I believe this is a document that you -- that you penned or

Page 9283

 1     drafted?

 2        A.   Yes, for General Morillon.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, this, I believe, among other things refers to a

 4     different mortar attack than the mortar attacks that we've been

 5     previously discussing with regard to the Bosniak Army.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could turn to page 2.  And if we could go

 7     to the second paragraph.

 8        Q.   Before I ask you any questions with regard to the information

 9     that is contained in paragraph 2, Colonel Siber, he was a member of the

10     which army?

11        A.   Colonel Siber was a member of the Presidency army, in other

12     words, the ABiH.  However, he was ethnically a Croat.

13        Q.   Okay.  And I thank you for that answer because, I think,

14     yesterday there may be some confusion with regard to his exact status,

15     so. In paragraph 2, there is a discussion concerning a mortar attack on

16     FRBAT2.  Would that be FrenchBat 2?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   As I understand what occurred is that there was a fatality or

19     fatalities suffered as a result of a mortar attack by the Presidency on

20     an UNPROFOR unit, that being FrenchBat 2; correct?

21        A.   There were casualties.  I can't remember the exact details of how

22     many, and from the crater analysis carried out by a Canadian officer,

23     Major Itani [phoen], he was able to determine that those shells had not

24     been fired from -- or appeared as they had not been fired by the Bosnian

25     Serb side but by the ABiH side or from ABiH territory, to be absolutely

Page 9284

 1     precise.

 2        Q.   In that paragraph there are a couple of noteworthy features,

 3     which is, one, that there was apparently an argument about how you can

 4     determine the direction from which a shell came by crater analysis;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   And based upon your conversation with Colonel Siber at least as

 8     late as February 1993, it would appear, and I'm using your words here, it

 9     would appear that the BH Army is not aware of techniques of crater

10     analysis.  That's what you state there, correct, sir?  That's what you

11     state there?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   You also -- continuing in this paragraph, Colonel Siber says

14     there were unruly elements in and attached to the BH Army.  Now, I take

15     it by that there was some discussion about whether or not he had control

16     over those individuals who may well have been responsible for this

17     attack, although there was not any specific identification of who those

18     individuals were; correct?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Thank you very much.  Also on -- turning to page 2 now, there's

21     also an indication -- oh, I shouldn't say -- I should say an indication

22     as well as a reporting of a BH Army infantry attack on Ilidza from Butmir

23     and Stup.  And that's in paragraph (b) once it gets up on the screen.

24     And that's going to be right below the chart.  Correct?

25        A.   Sorry what is the question?

Page 9285

 1        Q.   That there was an attack on the 11th of February by the BH Army?

 2        A.   I cannot, sat here today, recall specific details, but if that's

 3     what I wrote at the time, I did write that report, then that would be the

 4     case.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Turning now to, I believe it will be the fifth

 7     page.  It will be the -- yes.

 8        Q.   Now, this is referring once again to that same fatal mortar

 9     attack; correct?  This is the report --

10        A.   Yes, it looks like it, yeah.

11        Q.    -- in a different form.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Turning now to the seventh page.

13        Q.   This is the letter that was written -- I take it this is the

14     letter that you drafted on behalf of General Morillon?

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   Okay.  And in this letter it's indicated in paragraph 1 that:

17             "It is sadly beyond doubt that your forces were responsible."

18             Correct?  That's what you stated?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Okay.  Which is slightly different from what you told us but a

21     moment a ago, when you had done an investigation and determination had

22     been made at the time; correct?

23        A.   I think the difference was that that was a single determination,

24     a single instant, this is talking about a pattern.

25        Q.   I see.  This here is talking about a pattern of behaviour?  I

Page 9286

 1     see, okay.

 2             And finally the last page which is also dated the

 3     13th of February, this letter deals with a slightly different issue.

 4     Yesterday, as you recall, we were talking about the independent and

 5     unilateral decision of the UNHCR to not supply humanitarian aid.  In this

 6     situation what occurred, as I understand it from the letter, is that at

 7     some point the Presidency made a determination that they were going

 8     refuse humanitarian aid, and this caused some distress to

 9     General Morillon, or that's what this letter states; right?

10        A.   That's correct.  The Presidency declared they were going to

11     refuse to receive humanitarian -- accept humanitarian aid elsewhere in

12     Bosnia in solidarity with the eastern enclaves who were not receiving

13     aid.

14        Q.   And elsewhere in Bosnia obviously including Sarajevo, which is --

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   Thank you very much.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I have that document marked as Defendant's

18     next in order, please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an

20     exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

22     Exhibit D191.  Thank you.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The next document I'd like to have up on the

24     screen if I could is 1D02-6044, please.

25        Q.   This document is dated the 26th, and it concerns a series -- in

Page 9287

 1     its subject matter of discussions with Mladic, and it's from an

 2     individual by the name of Wahlgren.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it the 26th or 29th?

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I have the 26th, Your Honour, as the subject

 5     discussions with Mladic -- I'm sorry, I understand your question.  The

 6     document is dated the 29th, it refers to conversations had with Mladic on

 7     the 26th of March, 1993.  Thank you very much.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are welcome.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:

10        Q.   And it's from a gentleman by the name of Wahlgren.  First of all,

11     do you know who Wahlgren is?

12        A.   Yes, he was the commander of UNPROFOR in Zagreb and he took over

13     from General Nambiar who was his predecessor.

14        Q.   So then in terms of the -- in terms of the chain of command then,

15     he would have been above General Morillon?

16        A.   General Morillon reported to General Wahlgren.

17        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  With regard to this particular document --

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could turn to the next page.

19        Q.   What I'm just going to ask is whether or not this is a document

20     that you are familiar with, first of all?

21        A.   No, I'm not familiar with the document because it was sent from

22     Zagreb to the United Nations, and I was in Belgrade at the time.

23        Q.   Okay.  With regard to --

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could turn now to, then, page 4 of 6.

25        Q.   There's a section here that says:

Page 9288

 1             "Mladic says he wants peace but there were some requirements that

 2     must be met."

 3             He discusses the withdrawal of the Croatian forces which seems to

 4     have been a relatively consistent theme from the time that you very --

 5     you had your first encounter or meeting with him; correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   I'm going to skip B for the moment and go on to the next

 8     paragraph, which says:

 9             "He requested," that would be once again Mladic, "that a

10     cease-fire be organised by the coming together of military chiefs of all

11     four parties and suggested that in the interest of peace in the future,

12     that they all stick to it.  He said that he had declared ..."

13             That would be Mladic, I take it?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   "... a cease-fire in 29 December 1992 and there was no response."

16             Are you aware, first of all, of this conversation with Wahlgren?

17        A.   I was -- this is a document which looks as if it's a report about

18     the meeting with Mladic that I described yesterday.  I was present at

19     that meeting.

20        Q.   And is the information that's contained in what I just read

21     accurate?

22        A.   To the best of my knowledge and understanding, yes.

23        Q.   Now, the next paragraph, it says:

24             "He ..."

25             Once again that would be Mladic?

Page 9289

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   "... indicated UNPROFOR can count on his full support and

 3     cooperation.  He reiterated that it was a pity that we did not do what we

 4     had discussed on the 3 March 1993 (Morillon and Mladic)."

 5        A.   That I would have to look in my notes.  I can't recall because

 6     whenever Morillon met with Mladic, there were 10, 15 issues that they

 7     discussed.  And I would have to look in my notes in order to find out

 8     what that was.

 9        Q.   I'm going to hold on that just because I'm pushing through as

10     quickly as I can; we'll try to get back to that one issue if we can.  All

11     right?

12             It goes on to say:

13             "He said that he was ready to let the Muslims go, if they so

14     wish, to Tuzla and he expected a reciprocal arrangement for the Serbs of

15     Tuzla.  He is prepared to talk about the whole Bosnia-Herzegovina issue,

16     despite the fact that the earlier cease-fire had been violated.  The

17     following being his initiatives."

18             Then he goes on with the initiatives onto the next page.  And

19     then the report, after we talk about his initiatives, A, which -- A or A,

20     B, C and D, then there is a report of those agreements that were

21     attempted to be obtained from him.  Right?

22        A.   Yeah.

23        Q.   Now, at this point in time - and by this point in time, I mean

24     March 26 of 1993 - a report had been made - had it not? - to the

25     United Nations Security Council with regard to the interim arrangements,

Page 9290

 1     do you know what I'm referring to?

 2        A.   Not offhand.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have D155.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the fate of this one?

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm going to move its admission.  I will move its

 7     admission.  If we could have that marked as the Defendant's next in

 8     order, please.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Its admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

10     number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D192.

12     Thank you.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:

14        Q.   This document which has previously been admitted in evidence is

15     the report of the Secretary-General on the activities of

16     The International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia peace talks on

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the reference of this document?

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It's Defendant's 155.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:

22        Q.   And this is a document that discusses the efforts and

23     arrangements that have been made for a comprehensive peace concerning

24     pretty much everything that could be envisioned by the co-chairman.  Are

25     you aware of the fact that there had been a myriad meetings between

Page 9291

 1     pretty much the time that you first arrived, if not before, in Bosnia,

 2     certainly up to and including this report with regard to a comprehensive

 3     peace plan that took into account such things as geographic boundaries,

 4     the manner in which fuel, electricity would be regulated, the form of

 5     government, et cetera?

 6        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with that, and I've met with Vance and Owen and

 7     a number of others involved in those negotiations because they would come

 8     to Sarajevo from time to time to meet with General Morillon and with

 9     members of the Presidency and Bosnian Serbs.

10        Q.   Now, with regard to the issue of what would be the geographic

11     boundaries, was a map presented to all the parties and reported to the

12     United Nations Security Council with regard to how, I hate to use the

13     word, but how this region would be broken up or divided?

14        A.   I did not personally see or hand over any maps, but I know maps

15     were being worked on.  And that I know that -- that Lord Owen certainly

16     was involved with some maps, but I did not personally see those maps.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not sure, and I'll have to double-check, give

18     me but a second.  I'm just double-checking because it's a relatively long

19     document; I want to give you the proper page in e-court that we should be

20     pulling up.  Perfect, the system does work.  If we could please have

21     page 24 in e-court of this document.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I have seen that map.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:

24        Q.   Okay.  And with regard to this map, does this map comport with

25     the map that you claim to have seen when you spoke with Dr. Karadzic?

Page 9292

 1        A.   No, this map looks totally different.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, the map that you -- I'm -- the map

 3     that you claim to have seen and discussed with Dr. Karadzic, is that a

 4     map that -- that you reported about?  Did you make a report about that?

 5        A.   I think I referred to it in one or two sentences, but did not

 6     make a specific report.  It was the rest of the meeting which was the

 7     main subject of the reporting.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, I just want to make sure about something before I go

 9     any further, because I want to make sure that what I have seen of your

10     notes is an accurate reflection of what you turned over to the

11     Prosecution.  So I ask you the following question which is:  Are all the

12     notes that you brought with you that were the subject matter of some

13     discussion a couple of days ago, the self-same notes that you turned over

14     to the Prosecution?  There's nothing new in those notes?

15        A.   No, there isn't.

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   One comment I would make is that those notes are not every single

18     page of notes I made while I was in Bosnia, there were some short periods

19     of when I didn't have that note or those notebooks with me, and those

20     notes I no longer have.

21        Q.   Now, with regard to -- with regard to the issue that I'm

22     referring to right now which is this meeting that you had with

23     Dr. Karadzic in which you claim that there was this discussion about a

24     very specific map, which has been specifically identified, that was a

25     pretty important piece of information, was it not?  It's the kind of

Page 9293

 1     piece of information that would be indicative of what the intent of

 2     parties were and how one was to negotiate and what kinds of expectations

 3     could be seen with regard to, among other things, your mandate; right?

 4        A.   In hindsight, you are correct.  At that time this map was brought

 5     out - I'm referring to the census map - was brought out by Karadzic and

 6     General Mladic effectively during the coffee break in between the

 7     meeting.  And one of the things that happened in --

 8        Q.   Sorry, you're well past my question.  You said in hindsight it

 9     was, but I take it at the time it was not?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   I see.  And this map is a map that you referred to in the

12     testimony that you have given previously?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   I see.  So just so we are clear for purposes of the record, a

15     document which you've specifically identified there are no notes of, you

16     have testified at least thrice in these proceedings and you have never

17     raised this issue before; correct?

18        A.   Yeah, I was not asked about it.

19        Q.   I understand that you were not -- I understand that that's a kind

20     of stock response here when dealing with matters that are somewhat

21     critical, but that's not my question.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

23             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I would ask that Mr. Guy-Smith be

24     prohibitive from being argumentative with the witness in regards to the

25     "stock" answers and allegations against this witness.

Page 9294

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No comment.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, please do make sure that you don't.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 5        Q.   Now, with regard to the second map that you claim to have seen,

 6     the Vinko map, I take it that we have the same situation?  There are no

 7     notes, and you've never testified about it before?

 8        A.   I'm unclear of what you mean by Vinko map.

 9        Q.   Sorry, my apologies.  Pandurevic map.  The map that you --

10        A.   Oh right.  No, of course not.  That was a map which was in his

11     headquarters on his wall and which I only saw for five minutes.

12        Q.   I see.  And so you saw the map and as you've told us here because

13     these are two things that have featured prominently in your testimony

14     here before us, you saw the map for about five minutes; there are no

15     notes that you took with regard to the map; correct?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Okay.  You made -- you didn't make a report to anybody concerning

18     the map, which is as a matter of fact, excuse me, which as a matter of

19     fact is relatively critical as regards what is occurring specifically in

20     terms of your mandate?

21        A.   The Pandurevic map, I did report and we did report.

22        Q.   I see.  When?

23        A.   In -- I can't, sat here now today, say when, but in the next

24     report that I was sending from the -- from that area.  If you recall, I

25     said yesterday that we were regularly radioing in reports.  And in one of

Page 9295

 1     those reports that would have been included.

 2        Q.   I'm going to move to another topic, which is you indicated that

 3     there was a convoy of humanitarian aid that was stuck, that had come from

 4     Serbia; correct?

 5        A.   Which convoys are you referring to?

 6        Q.   The one that was on the -- I believe it was stuck at the Zvornik

 7     bridge.

 8        A.   Yes, the convoys which came from -- which were stuck at the

 9     Zvornik bridge always came from Belgrade.

10        Q.   I see.  So we are clear, humanitarian aid that had been

11     determined was necessary for this area was emanating from Belgrade, and

12     by that I mean geographically came from that region, and it was stuck,

13     meaning that the Bosnian Serbs, for whatever their reasons may be,

14     refused to let it pass?

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know who it came from in the Belgrade

18     region?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it was flown into Belgrade airport and UNHCR

20     had a big depo at Belgrade airport which at that time was under sanction.

21     So it was -- the UN traffic was virtually the only traffic through the

22     airport.  And it was then trucked from Belgrade airport down to Zvornik.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             Mr. Guy-Smith.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sorry, I'm trying to be efficient.

Page 9296

 1        Q.   Let us return now to Morillon after he has come back from Cerska

 2     at which point he has a conversation with Oric, and once again to set the

 3     stage, he had been told by Oric of the horrors that we discussed

 4     yesterday including many wounded and people being put in houses and

 5     burned, and he came back and spoke to Oric about this and said to Oric --

 6        A.   Can I just clarify?  Are you talking about when General Morillon

 7     spoke with Oric in Konjevic Polje literally hours after he came back from

 8     Cerska, or do you mean when he spoke with Oric in Srebrenica about eight

 9     or ten days later?

10        Q.   I believe I'm referring to the first conversation.

11        A.   So in Konjevic Polje literally a couple of hours after he had

12     been in -- yeah, okay.

13        Q.   In that conversation he indicated to Commander Oric that he had

14     been in the area, he had seen what he had seen, and that the reports that

15     were made were grossly exaggerated, if not in some senses false; correct?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, Oric -- Oric's reply, as least as I understand it

18     from prior testimony, was he shrugged his shoulders and said, Well, I

19     heard it from a bunch of my soldiers.

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   I never checked it out.

22        A.   He wasn't able to go into Cerska.

23        Q.   And that was pretty much the end that have as far as he was

24     concerned?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 9297

 1        Q.   Allegation was made, turned out not to be true, no big deal;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Effectively.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now, same conversation was also had with

 5     President Izetbegovic and I believe Mr. Ganic at a later point in time?

 6        A.   Yes, about a day later.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And once again, the same information was conveyed to

 8     Izetbegovic and to Ganic that the information that had been relayed, the

 9     information that in many senses was the causative factor for you

10     marshalling the helicopters and going into the region turned out to be

11     not only not accurate, but in certain regards palpably false; correct?

12        A.   In the way you describe it, yes, but had there been heavy

13     fighting?  Had there been casualties caused?  Yes there were.  Were there

14     people that were starving?  Yes there were.

15        Q.   That's not the issue, my friend, and we both well know it.  The

16     issue is the question of burned bodies and the horrors of the falling of

17     Cerska and the need for immediate intervention because of the horrors

18     that had been occasioned in the area by the Bosnian Serbs.

19        A.   Yeah, on that specific you are correct.

20        Q.   I am correct.

21        A.   Yes, you are.

22        Q.   So did President Izetbegovic take the same kind of position that

23     Commander Oric took which was, you know, I got the information from other

24     people but I never checked it out?

25        A.   President Izetbegovic thanked General Morillon for going in and

Page 9298

 1     for confirming that there had not been this massacre.  However, that it

 2     looked as if the crisis was unfolding in Srebrenica and asked

 3     General Morillon to go back to Srebrenica, which is where

 4     General Morillon also reported that whilst there had been reports of 700

 5     injured in Konjevic Polje and that he only found 73, or rather

 6     Dr. Mardell only found 73 --

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, you are not answering my question, sir.

 8        A.   Yes, I am.

 9        Q.   No.  My question was:

10             "So did President Izetbegovic take the same kind of position that

11     Commander Oric took which was, I got the information from other people

12     but I never checked it out?"

13             And I'm referring to to that specific issue.

14        A.   No, it is you who added the context, but I never checked it out.

15     The issue is that President Izetbegovic was surrounded in Sarajevo and

16     was in no position to go and do any checking out.  As you somewhat

17     facilely put it.

18        Q.   Well, let me put it to you in other terms then, sir.  Did he

19     indicate to you after he was told that the information that he received

20     was inaccurate and in some regards palpably false, what he had done in

21     order to determine the accuracy of the information that he was giving to

22     you upon which he was asking you to operate?  Did he say who he had

23     talked to, what had been done, how can we stop this from happening again?

24             Because as we both know, and it's an old saw, truth is one of the

25     casualties, not necessarily first, but one of the casualties of war.  So

Page 9299

 1     did he discuss that matter with you?  So how to fix this?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Carter.

 3             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I would object to this being a compound

 4     question and more so a compound speech.  And I would ask that the witness

 5     to be asked a single question at a time and being allowed to answer.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are --

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:

10        Q.   Did he, President Izetbegovic, indicate that he was concerned to

11     you about the fact that you had received incorrect and palpably false

12     information with regard to what was occurring in Cerska, yes or no?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Did he, President Izetbegovic, discuss with you a way, a

15     mechanism whereby wild rumours could be avoided with regard to such

16     things as war crimes and humanitarian crises as exemplified with Cerska?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   I'd like to talk to you for a moment, if I could, about what I

19     think is fairly characterised as the night-attempted escapes from

20     Sarajevo through the airport.  You know the subject matter?

21        A.   Yes, I'm familiar.

22        Q.   And there are daily sitrep reports with regard to this issue,

23     which I think we are both aware of.  But time is not our friend right

24     here, so I'm going to try to summarise what I understand was occurring.

25             In the night-time, hundreds of people on a nightly basis were

Page 9300

 1     attempting to leave Sarajevo through the airport area; correct?

 2        A.   That is correct.  In the winter.

 3        Q.   Yes, in the winter.  The majority of those people were men;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   That I cannot testify to.

 6        Q.   When I say hundreds, would you agree with me, and I'm trying to

 7     be conservative here, that what was occurring was there was a report of

 8     approximately 300 to 400 people a night attempting to leave?

 9        A.   Yes, sometimes it was more, sometimes it was less.

10        Q.   Okay.

11        A.   But it was large numbers.

12        Q.   Okay.  I'm trying to average it out.  And what happened was that

13     they were stopped by the UNPROFOR unit at the airport, and I'm not sure

14     if they were either arrested or just turned back; do you know?

15        A.   They were rounded up and taken back to where they came from.

16        Q.   There came a point in time where this became a sufficient enough

17     problem that it was decided that it would no longer be reported about;

18     correct?  The reporting was stopped?

19        A.   Yes, but one of the main reasons reporting was stopped was not

20     simple because of the numbers but because of the numbers who were being

21     shot by Bosnian Serb snipers whilst they were trying to run across the

22     airport.

23        Q.   I see.  Now, with regard to the general situation and

24     assessment --

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I could have 1D02-6159 which you will have as

Page 9301

 1     probably pages 1 and 2 of 1D02-6025.  What occurred here is there were --

 2     it doesn't matter what occurred, I'm sure that Mr. Registrar will be able

 3     to get to it.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While you are looking for that, can I just ask

 5     something for clarification.  Are you saying the reason you stopped

 6     reporting about this is because numbers were being shot by Bosnian Serb

 7     snipers while they were trying to run across the airport?  Wasn't that

 8     kind of incident precisely the kind of thing that you were supposed to be

 9     reporting, where people are being sniped at?

10             THE WITNESS:  There was concern -- I don't recollect immediately

11     sat here, I'd need to go back into notes, what the specific logic was.

12     It was concern that people were trying to escape out of Sarajevo and

13     escape from the conditions and that people were being shot whilst trying

14     to escape.  French soldiers were being shot at the same time.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But my question is, if you say you stopped

16     reporting because they were being sniped at, my question is:  Was the

17     question of sniping not the very thing that you ought to be looking out

18     for and reporting and trying to avoid to the extent possible?

19             THE WITNESS:  I would agree with you, sir.  But nonetheless --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But nonetheless you stopped reporting?

21             THE WITNESS:  That is correct.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would we call that dereliction of duty?

23        A.   I was uncomfortable with it at the time, sir.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 9302

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.  If we could have the next page, please.

 2     Page 2.  Go down to the bottom of the page.

 3        Q.   The bottom the page is an assessment which I think is discussing

 4     the matter that we've been dealing with:

 5             "Assessment:  The nightly airport crossings are becoming an

 6     increasing problem.  Larger numbers of people (now mostly men) are

 7     crossing.  Dense fog and a new tactic of crossing in larger groups result

 8     in more people slipping past FREBAT soldiers who are being overwhelmed.

 9     The danger is that as more men slip from one side to the other, the Serbs

10     may decide that UNPROFOR is unable to stop the flow of potential fighters

11     and intervene with fire, placing UN troops at risk and escalating the

12     conflict.  As well, FREBAT finds its soldiers working day (escorting aid,

13     et cetera) and night (stopping crossings), a negotiated settlement is

14     essential although this seems unlikely.  A separate report will be sent

15     on this critical situation."

16             Is that a fair --

17        A.   Yeah, that's a --

18        Q.   Fair encapsulation of the problem and the situation that we are

19     referring to?

20        A.   And goes some way to not giving full answers, but partial answers

21     to your earlier question, sir.

22        Q.   I want to focus for a moment on what I understood your testimony

23     to be with regard to what you were doing and why you were doing it, okay?

24     And I'd like to refer you to something that you've previously said and

25     see whether or not this is consistent with what you've been talking about

Page 9303

 1     here.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I'm referring Court and counsel to

 3     IT-03-68 pages 5838 and 5839.

 4        Q.   You were asked the following question by a representative of the

 5     Prosecution:

 6             "Thank you.  Now, you have given evidence of some of the

 7     objective of your trip."  And this is your trip to Srebrenica.  "Were

 8     they the principal objectives, namely, facilitation of the aid convoy,

 9     facilitation of cease-fires, deployment of UNMOs or military observers,

10     and evacuation of the injured.  Is that a --"

11             And your answer is:

12             "Those are the four objectives, though I put them in a different

13     order.  I would put them in the order of ..."

14             And one, the first point is:

15             "Deploy UNMOs first because you need them to have a cease-fire,

16     and you needed the cease-fire in order to get the humanitarian aid

17     through in order to evacuate the injured."

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   Okay.  And as a matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, when you

20     first began your conversations with Bosnian Serb representatives, and

21     specifically with Mladic, the issue that was at hand was the issue of a

22     cease-fire, the cessation of hostilities?

23        A.   You mean in all of Bosnia?

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   Yes, that would have made it much easier to get humanitarian aid

Page 9304

 1     through to where it was needed.

 2        Q.   Indeed so.  I told you that we would get back to the issue of

 3     demilitarisation yesterday, and I would like to deal with

 4     demilitarisation with you now.

 5             When you were in Srebrenica in March, this would be of 1993, you

 6     had discussions with both the war committee of Srebrenica and Commander

 7     Oric cap? Concerning demilitarisation, did you not?

 8        A.   We did.

 9        Q.   Now, before we discuss what those were, who or what was the war

10     committee of Srebrenica, to your knowledge?

11        A.   To my knowledge, it was the mayor of Srebrenica and a number of

12     other councillors, whether they are elected or not, I have no idea.

13     There was also a doctor from the Srebrenica hospital, and there were a

14     couple of military people.  However, they were not Naser Oric.

15        Q.   The subject matter of demilitarisation was something that was

16     important for purposes of seeing what could be done in obtaining a

17     cease-fire; correct?

18        A.   It was one of the angles in to how you would achieve a

19     cease-fire.

20        Q.   Because obviously if an area is demilitarised, there's no

21     fighting?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   The war committee, after some discussion, I believe, agreed to

24     demilitarise Srebrenica; correct?

25        A.   That was after I left.

Page 9305

 1        Q.   Okay.  I'm talking about during the period of time you were

 2     there.  They were inclined, perhaps I've been too strong, they were

 3     inclined to demilitarise while you were there in your discussions with

 4     them?

 5        A.   They -- to the best of my recollection, it was something they

 6     were considering; Morillon had asked them.  But by the time that -- at

 7     the time that I left, I don't think a decision had been made on that

 8     subject.

 9        Q.   Oric was vehemently opposed to demilitarisation?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And what Oric's position was was that there would be no

12     demilitarisation and he would fight to the last man standing; correct?

13        A.   I don't think he used those words, but that's what it boiled down

14     to.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now, during the time that that issue was being discussed,

16     to your knowledge was Oric involved in either offensive actions or raids

17     against the --

18        A.   I do not know of specific raids or actions, but when Morillon

19     asked Oric were his people still carrying out attacks in general, Oric

20     said, Yes, they were.  How do you think I'm getting -- we are getting the

21     ammunition and weapons with which to defend ourselves?

22        Q.   And as a matter of fact what was occurring is that the Bosnian

23     Serbs were using the Oric attacks and/or raids, however you wish to call

24     them, as a basis for continuing their efforts against Srebrenica?  I'm

25     not saying -- you know, that's what was going on.  I'm not putting any

Page 9306

 1     value on it, but that's what was being said to you?

 2        A.   Yes, that's what was going on and went on in Bosnia all the time.

 3        Q.   And as a matter of fact you were told by the Bosnian Serbs that

 4     Oric and his men were massacring and killing civilians, and that would be

 5     Serb civilians; correct?

 6        A.   What the Bosnian Serbs said is that civilians had been massacred

 7     in January, we've already covered some of that ground.  At this time, in

 8     other words, in March when we were in Srebrenica, the Bosnian Serbs said

 9     that, if I remember, between 7 and 15 people were being killed every

10     night.

11        Q.   And in that -- when you had a discussion with Oric about this,

12     Oric said that, and I don't know if these were exact words, but something

13     to the effect of, you know, Perhaps my men are a bit vengeful, so when

14     it's only necessary to kill one, we kill two, two for one?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   And he acknowledged that that was not the best thing in the world

17     but he didn't know whether or not he could get his troops to stop

18     engaging in that kind of behaviour; right?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now, on the other side of this there was a meeting, and I

21     think this is around the time of March 15th, there was a discussion in

22     which Morillon was to have said that, I believe you noted this.

23             "I know you wish to clean out this nest of terrorists.  I will do

24     it for you and save you many, many casualties."

25             Now, all I care about for the moment, is that something that

Page 9307

 1     Morillon said to Bosnian Serbs?

 2        A.   Sat here now today, I recollect something along those lines,

 3     whether the words "this nest of terrorists" were used specifically, I

 4     can't remember.  But what I do remember was that what Morillon was

 5     appealing to was, Stop attacking them; I will try and stop them attacking

 6     you.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Let me see if I can be of some help to you.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm referring Court and counsel to page 5984

 9     IT-03-68 in which you were asked the following question and you give the

10     following answers.  Now, if we go a bit further down you have

11     line 16 to 18:

12             "I know you wish to clean out this nest of terrorists, I will do

13     it for you and save you many many casualties.

14             "A. Yes.

15             "Q. That's General Morillon speaking to the Serbs and referring

16     to Srebrenica as the nest of terrorists; is that correct?

17             "A. He was speaking in language the Serbs would understand.  That

18     was the language which the Serbs had been using for General Morillon to

19     refer to them, otherwise it would have been difficult in the

20     circumstances."

21             So you give an explanation of why he used that language; right?

22        A.   Yes, that makes sense.

23        Q.   And that is something that he said?  And I'm just talking about

24     the bald words that were used.

25        A.   Correct.

Page 9308

 1        Q.   Whatever interpretation we put on them is something entirely

 2     different, but those were the bald words that he used?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I could have but a moment.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do.

 7                           [Defence counsel confers]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  I tried to make good my promise.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             Madam Carter, any re-examination?

12             MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour, briefly.

13                           Re-examination by Ms. Carter:

14        Q.   Sir, today you were asked about the maps in both Karadzic's

15     office as well as in Pandurevic's office and when you actually reported

16     those items.

17             MS. CARTER:  I would like to now bring up 1D02-5546.

18        Q.   Sir, did you give a statement to the Office of the Prosecution

19     beginning on 6 and 7 September and then later carrying on both in 2001

20     and 2002?

21        A.   I did.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MS. CARTER:  I'd like to move to page 23 of the statement.

24        Q.   Sir, in the middle of the page we began a conversation in regard

25     to Srebrenica in March of 1993.  At that time you told the

Page 9309

 1     Office of the Prosecution that:

 2             "I later learned that this offensive had been launched on

 3     7 February when Morillon and I happened to be in the office of major

 4     Pandurevic, in a Bosnian Serb army barracks just outside of Zvornik.

 5     Pandurevic had maps on his wall that detailed the Bosnian Serb Army's

 6     advance on the eastern enclaves, and these had dates and lines on them

 7     which showed how far the advance had progressed."

 8             Are these the one in the same maps that you testified to in court

 9     these past days?

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             MS. CARTER:  I would now like to turn to Exhibit D192.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you go to D192, what would you like to

14     happen to ID02-5546?

15             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, we don't need to tender this in

16     evidence.  I merely wanted to point out to -- or make a clarification of

17     the record that the veiled allegations of fabrication were unfounded and

18     that he had in fact reported not only to --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, yes, I believe that as a matter of fact,

21     the redirect as posed did not deal with the specific question asked which

22     was, Was there reportage of it?  Which is different than having a

23     conversation with the Prosecution about it.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess, yeah, that's a question of argument.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Obviously it's a question for your -- obviously

Page 9310

 1     that's a question for your determination.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, as I say, it's a question for argument.

 3             Madam Carter.

 4             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, you asked for D192.

 6             MS. CARTER:  Yes, please.

 7        Q.   Sir, you were questioned on the meeting of 26 March 1993 and this

 8     report on 29 March of 1993.

 9             MS. CARTER:  I'd like to turn to page 5 of this report.  At the

10     bottom of the page.

11        Q.   Sir, at the end of your meeting with Mladic, there's an

12     indication that there was a meeting with General Panic which followed.

13     Can you please tell us who General Panic is?

14        A.   General Panic, my understanding, was the Chief of Staff of the

15     Serb military in Belgrade.  In other words, of the Republic of Serbia.

16        Q.   Turning to the following page, there's an indication that the

17     meeting actually involved both Panic and Mladic at the same time; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   I believe so.

20        Q.   And, sir, this report is indicating that Panic stated that the

21     warring parties in BH, Bosnia-Herzegovina, should be separated on the

22     lines of which they now stand; is that correct?  It's in the third

23     paragraph.

24        A.   To be honest, I can't specifically remember, sat here now today,

25     of what was specifically said at that meeting 17 years ago.  However, it

Page 9311

 1     is consistent with everything else that -- that was being said again and

 2     again.

 3        Q.   And being said by whom, sir?

 4        A.   Being said by the Bosnian Serbs.

 5        Q.   Okay.  What about the Belgrade Serbs?

 6        A.   I cannot specifically remember that.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, I want to turn to some of the examination

 8     from yesterday in which you were discussing with Mr. Guy-Smith the

 9     cessation or suspension of the UNHCR convoys into Srebrenica on or about

10     17 November 1992.  At that time you were being questioned, you indicated

11     that the circumstances were a bit more complicated than what was being

12     asked of you in court today.

13             Can you please tell me, what was complicating the situations in

14     regards to those humanitarian aid convoys?

15        A.   There were many factors complicating the humanitarian aid

16     convoys.

17        Q.   I'll ask a more specific question.  The question that you were

18     being asked or a clause that was being asked of you on page 9255 at

19     line 5 is that Mladic had imposed particular conditions upon the convoy

20     being able to travel.  Can you please tell the Court what conditions were

21     being placed on the humanitarian aid to be received in the eastern

22     enclaves?

23        A.   That General Mladic wanted equivalent aid to be delivered to

24     Bosnian Serb refugees to which General Morillon's and UNHCR's answer was

25     that the statistics showed that the Bosnian Serbs were receiving as much

Page 9312

 1     if not more aid than the Bosnian Muslims.  There were other factors as

 2     well.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MS. CARTER:  I would like to call up now 1D02-6111.

 5        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this letter?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we see the conclusion of the letter, please.

 7             THE WITNESS:  See who it's signed by.  Yes, I think I recall this

 8     letter.

 9             MS. CARTER:

10        Q.   And this letter was being addressed to both Mladic as well as

11     Karadzic, was it not?

12        A.   I would need to have a look at the first page.

13             MS. CARTER:  If we can move back to the first page, please.  And

14     if we move down just a bit further, there will also be the cc lines.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

16             MS. CARTER:

17        Q.   And at that time, you were indicating to Mladic and Karadzic in

18     detail that the Bosnian Serbs were actually receiving more humanitarian

19     aid than the Muslims; isn't that correct?

20        A.   That's correct.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me just get clear.  We just saw the signatory

22     to this letter, was it you?  I didn't think it was your name.

23             THE WITNESS:  No, it was Mendiluce.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, I hear Madam Carter says you just indicated.

25             Are you saying indicated in this letter, ma'am?

Page 9313

 1             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour, he had actually responded

 2     previously in regards to my question about the humanitarian aid and the

 3     preconditions that were being placed upon it.  And he had said that one

 4     of the conditions was that they wanted more aid to go to the Bosnian

 5     Serbs and that actually they had been receiving more --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  More, correct.

 7             MS. CARTER:  I would have to get the specific line reference.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think the issue is whether or not is

 9     Colonel Tucker who made the indication or whether or not it was the

10     signatory of the letter, that would have been Mr. Mendiluce, and I

11     believe it was Mr. Mendiluce who made the specific indication to Karadzic

12     with the letter copied to Mladic with regard to where aid was going and

13     what was the percentage of the that aid, and it's not the issue of you,

14     the "you" is Mendiluce.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I --

16             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I'm actually following up on the point

17     that Colonel Tucker made in his own testimony today at page --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But you see, when you do that after you've

19     just put up a letter for us to look at, and we've just looked at who the

20     signatory of the letter is, the impression you are giving us is that in

21     this letter that's what is being indicated, and I would like you to

22     separate the two if that is possible, please.

23             MS. CARTER:  Certainly.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And while you do that, look at the time.

25             MS. CARTER:  Thank you.  I'm happy to take up this line after the

Page 9314

 1     break.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  After the break.  Okay.  We'll take a break and

 3     come back at quarter to.  Court adjourned.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Carter.

 7             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Sir, still addressing 1D02-6111, the letter of Mendiluce in the

 9     opening paragraphs there's an indication that he is referring to a

10     meeting that took place between General Mladic and General Morillon on

11     15 November, 1992.  Is this the meeting that you were discussing with

12     Mr. Guy-Smith yesterday in regards it to the humanitarian aid convoys?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   He goes on to describe the preconditions that were being placed

15     on these convoys.  Are those the preconditions that were being set out to

16     you in that meeting?

17        A.   Yes, they are.

18        Q.   Okay.  And are you aware of UNHCR's response to these

19     preconditions?

20        A.   Yes, I am.

21        Q.   Okay.  And as the response is set out in this letter, you are

22     familiar with those facts?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. CARTER:  I tender this document into evidence.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No objection.

Page 9315

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an

 2     exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

 4     Exhibit P2695, thank you.

 5             MS. CARTER:  The final topic --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second.

 7             Why is it a D, sir?  Oh P.  P269 -- thank you.

 8             MS. CARTER:

 9        Q.   Sir, as a final topic, I'd like to discuss with you the testimony

10     from yesterday in regards to the Muslim prohibition of help into

11     Sarajevo.  I want to discuss that with you a bit further.

12             Can you please tell me where did the gas line from heating run?

13        A.   The heating gas lines came from Russia through Serbia into

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina and down into Sarajevo.

15        Q.   And who turned off those gas lines?

16        A.   My understanding is that the gas was either turned off in Serbia

17     proper, or in Serb-held territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could just have clarification with regard

20     to Serb-held territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina, would that be Bosnian Serb?

21             THE WITNESS:  Bosnian Serb held territory, yes.

22             MS. CARTER:

23        Q.   Now, you also described in your previous testimony and you

24     touched on it in yesterday's testimony about the Muslim populations who

25     were responsible for, as was used by Judge Orie, the exploitation of

Page 9316

 1     misery.  Who were these people who were trying to exploit the situation

 2     in Sarajevo?

 3        A.   We did not have clear evidence as to named people.  However, it

 4     was our conclusion that there were extremist radicals who would go to any

 5     lengths in order to try and achieve their objectives.

 6        Q.   What was the Presidency's position in regards to the conditions

 7     of the Sarajevans?

 8        A.   The Presidency's position was that the position of their citizens

 9     in Sarajevo was unacceptable and was a disgrace and that all efforts

10     should be made by the international community in order to ensure that the

11     situation was improved, their citizens would no longer be under attack,

12     and that they would be able to live safe lives free of fear, and with

13     sufficient food, et cetera, to be able to live and survive.

14             MS. CARTER:  If I may have one moment to consult with counsel.

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             MS. CARTER:  That completes my redirect.  Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you Madam Carter.

18                           Questioned by the Court:

19             JUDGE PICARD: [No interpretation]

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, I -- excuse me, Judge, my apologies but you

21     are not getting interpreted.  There's no interpretation on the screen.

22     But also it indicates page 37, line 15, there's no interpretation.  So

23     your question is -- I'm rising in order so your question becomes part of

24     the record, Your Honour, otherwise the question will be asked, but I

25     don't think it will appear on the record, which I don't think is what you

Page 9317

 1     want to have occur.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe repeat your question.

 5             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I'll repeat my question.  Namely,

 6     that the international community in March of 1993 had a perception, had

 7     an impression that the Muslim population in the Srebrenica enclave will

 8     be a victim of the genocide, that genocide was being prepared at the

 9     time.  Bearing in mind that situation, was this discussed, did they

10     consider the possibility of evacuating the civilian population from the

11     enclave?

12        A.   Yes, they did.

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And who came out with that

14     possibility?  Who discussed it?

15             THE WITNESS:  The Bosnian Serbs suggested it, and they created

16     linkage between permitting people to be evacuated from Srebrenica,

17     provided that Bosnian Serbs who were inside Tuzla would also be allowed

18     to be evacuated out of the Bosnian Muslim held territory into Bosnian

19     Serb held territory.  That was one linkage.

20             The second linkage was that the Bosnian Serbs nonetheless

21     insisted on questioning every single male of combatant age who was

22     evacuated -- who would be evacuated from Srebrenica in order to ascertain

23     whether or not that person was a "war criminal" guilty of the massacres

24     of Bosnian Serb villagers in January.

25             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So their solution was discarded?

Page 9318

 1        A.   No, it was partially attempted.  The first attempt was the

 2     evacuation of Bosnian Serbs out of Tuzla which was one of the reasons

 3     that General Morillon went to Tuzla around the 19th, 20th of March.

 4     However, the Tuzla authorities with whom General Morillon met were very

 5     reluctant to permit this because they, from their perspective, they

 6     claimed that this would be paramount to them, the Bosnian Muslims,

 7     condoning ethnic cleansing, which was not something that they agreed

 8     with.

 9             Nonetheless, I believe that they allowed a small number of

10     Bosnian Serbs, my recollection is something like 40, to leave Tuzla and

11     go to Zvornik, and they did so in a convoy immediately after

12     General Morillon when he left Tuzla.

13             The second aspect is that on the convoy -- the humanitarian aid

14     convoy which reached Srebrenica around the 26th of March, that convoy on

15     its way out of Srebrenica took with it about 600 women and children and

16     old men, who were then taken out through -- from Srebrenica to Zvornik,

17     and I believe that the convoy then went on to Tuzla.  I believe they

18     discharged those people in Tuzla.  However, there were no men on that

19     convoy because they -- no men of combatant age.

20             I was present when that convoy left, and I was present when the

21     Serbs checked the convoy at the Yellow Bridge in order to check whether

22     there were any men of combat.  There was -- the next convoy in -- when it

23     left there were - this is a matter of public record - there are

24     television reports of hysterical people from Srebrenica desperately

25     trying to climb onto these trucks in Srebrenica in order to be evacuated,

Page 9319

 1     and I believe that a number of people were squashed and killed in the

 2     rush.

 3             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And following this first

 4     evacuation from Tuzla and Srebrenica, was there any more attempt?

 5        A.   Yes, there were also, I believe, but again it's after I left,

 6     there were also further helicopter evacuations of injured of --

 7             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I can understand for the injured,

 8     but with regard to the civilian population in general, were there any

 9     more attempts?

10        A.   That was then after my time, and I would not be in a position

11     to --

12             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Why were there no longer any

13     attempts?

14        A.   Sorry, I do not know whether there were or were not any further

15     attempts.  My last knowledge is of the hysterical behaviour which led to

16     people being crushed.  I do not know if there were any more attempts

17     afterwards.  I am not aware of any.

18             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE DAVID:  Colonel Tucker, yesterday at page 10, line 9 to 12,

20     you were asked by the Prosecution was the Srebrenica enclave being

21     covered in international and local media.  And your answer said, Yes, it

22     was.

23             Could you elaborate further on this point, make comments

24     according to your experience of those days as to the extent and

25     repercussions of this international and local coverage in the media.

Page 9320

 1        A.   The -- my understanding or my knowledge of the coverage, that is,

 2     I need to separate between Serb coverage, between Bosnian Muslim

 3     coverage, and international coverage.

 4             Bosnian -- sorry, Serb coverage on the day after that we arrived

 5     in Srebrenica was reporting that General Morillon and the UN team had

 6     been captured by the Bosnian Muslims and were being held hostage by the

 7     Bosnian Muslims and that Serb forces were attacking towards Srebrenica in

 8     order to rescue General Morillon.

 9             The local Bosnian Muslim, by this I mean "Oslobodenje," and local

10     radio in the Tuzla area were reporting that there were continued attacks

11     on the Srebrenica enclave and that -- people dying, that the

12     United Nations had sent a team there and was trying to facilitate the

13     delivery of humanitarian aid.

14             The international community, there had been a big outcry in the

15     international community about General Morillon's comments about after he

16     came back from his visit to Cerska where he had said that he had not

17     smelled the smell of burnt human flesh, and that was widely reported in

18     the international media at the time.  And when General Morillon went back

19     into Tuzla on his second journey into -- on the way to Srebrenica, he was

20     very angrily, verbally attacked by the commander of the Muslim forces in

21     Tuzla and accused of all sorts of -- all sorts of things.  And that was

22     all in the international media.

23             When we went into Srebrenica the second time -- went into

24     Srebrenica for the first time, which was the second time into the

25     enclave, there was a pause and then for about a day and a half and then

Page 9321

 1     the international media started reporting that General Morillon was in

 2     Srebrenica establishing what was going on.

 3             The major story which hit the international news was

 4     General Morillon's declaration that he made around the

 5     13th/14th of March, which was referred to in testimony yesterday.  And

 6     which -- at the end of which General Morillon declared that Srebrenica

 7     was under the protection of the United Nations.

 8             At that speech that General Morillon gave from the PTT building

 9     in Srebrenica, there were, as I said, a couple of journalists, and they

10     immediately after that speech were permitted by the Srebrenica war

11     committee to use the radio equipment in the PTT building in Srebrenica in

12     order to speak with people in Sarajevo in order to file their dispatches

13     about that story.

14             And then there was a lot of international discussion back and

15     forth about whether it was right or wrong or -- to be declaring a

16     protected area, which has some -- there are some definitions about that

17     and whether General Morillon was entitled to make such a statement.

18             And the progress of discussions around the Srebrenica enclaves

19     and attacks and fighting were daily reported in international media.  I

20     spoke by radio, by satellite radio, with my wife whilst I was in

21     Srebrenica, and she told me that she had been reading about all these

22     things in media from our home back in Germany.

23             Does that answer your question, sir?

24             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you very much.  Yes.  No more questions.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any questions arising from the questions by the

Page 9322

 1     Bench?

 2             Madam Carter.

 3             MS. CARTER:  A single question.

 4                           Further Re-examination by Ms. Carter:

 5        Q.   Sir, were scenes from Srebrenica being broadcast on these

 6     television reports?

 7        A.   Only later.  And by "later" what I mean is the -- it was --

 8     television was only brought into Srebrenica together with the later

 9     humanitarian aid convoys, and that is how the scenes from the hysterical

10     refugees tried to clamber onto the trucks was recorded.

11             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  One question.

14                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

15        Q.   You indicated that there was Serb coverage, that you had been

16     captured by Bosnian Muslims.  I'm going to read something from your

17     statement and see if that's what you are referring to.

18             "On March 12th the situation changed completely.  The crowd of

19     refugees around the PTT building where we had spent the night had been

20     growing and becoming increasingly hostile.  As one stage, as I pushed my

21     way through the with Mihailov, he told me the refugees were arguing

22     amongst each other whether we should be killed immediately or whether we

23     served any purpose in being kept alive.  I also noticed a number of

24     Bosniak soldiers setting up three heavy 12.7 mms," that's millimetre I

25     guess?  Thank you.  "... millimetre machine-guns on tripods in positions

Page 9323

 1     to cover the road back the way we had come."

 2             Is that information that -- oh, I'm sorry, "... some more took up

 3     positions with hand-held anti-tank rockets."

 4             Is that information that you transmitted over any radio

 5     communication to anyone concerning your condition when you were telling

 6     us about you doing your hourly reporting?

 7        A.   Yes, I did report that information together with much other

 8     information over this HF radio that I've referred to.  It was a UNHCR

 9     unencrypted radio, and we were aware that the Bosnian Serbs were

10     certainly intercepting everything that we transmitted and sometimes

11     jamming us as well.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Colonel, that brings us to the end of your

14     testimony.  Thank you so much for taking the time to come and testify.

15     You are now excused.  You may stand down.  Please travel well back home.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Carter.

18             MS. CARTER:  May I be excused from the remainder of the session

19     so I may bid farewell to Colonel Tucker?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, ma'am.

21             MS. CARTER:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

23             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, the Prosecution has no more witnesses

24     for this week.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For this week.

Page 9324

 1             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To what day do we adjourn?  To Monday next week?

 3             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, we are waiting on some decisions of the

 4     Trial Chamber with respect to potential remaining witnesses.  It is the

 5     Prosecution's projection that -- well, we are in the Chamber's hands.  We

 6     are in the Chamber's hands because there are pending motions for three

 7     witnesses, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  The Chamber is working on those motions,

 9     and it will give its decision, but other than that --

10             MR. SAXON:  Other than that we do not have additional witnesses,

11     Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are then going to have to postpone sine die and

13     the parties will be warned.  Court adjourned.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned sine die at

15                           11.08 a.m.