1 Monday, 2 November 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
12 today, please, starting with the Prosecution.
13 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning counsel.
14 Good morning everyone in the courtroom. Mark Harmon, Lorna Bolton, and
15 Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 And for the Defence.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
19 morning to all the parties to the proceedings. The Defence of
20 Mr. Perisic is represented by Tina Drolec today, who is for the first
21 time also Case Manager; Chad Mair; our intern Alex Fielding; and
22 Novak Lukic as chief Defence counsel.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Just to place on the record
24 that we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge David
25 who is not here because of health reasons.
1 May I just also start off by apologising for starting late. It
2 was due to circumstances beyond our control. Before we call the witness,
3 there is an oral decision to be rendered. I think the Defence filed some
4 response last Friday night. We need to deal with the motion related
6 The Trial Chamber is seized of a Prosecution motion for leave to
7 file a tenth supplemental Rule 65 ter list and request to tender certain
8 exhibits from the bar table filed on the 16th of October, 2009,
9 hereinafter referred to separately as Prosecution 65 ter list motion, and
10 third bar table motion. On the 23rd of October, 2009, the Defence filed
11 a response to the Prosecution 65 ter list motion only with respect to the
12 documents relevant to the evidence of Major General Mungo Melvin. On the
13 26th of October, 2009, the Trial Chamber pursuant to Rule 127 of the
14 rules, issued an oral decision partly granting the Defence's request for
15 an extension of time in relation to both the second and third bar table
16 motion and stated that the Trial Chamber remained seized of the
17 Prosecution 65 ter list motion with respect to the remaining documents.
18 On the 30th of October 2009, a Defence response to Prosecution motion for
19 leave to file a tenth supplemental Rule 65 ter exhibit list was filed
20 with respect to the remainder of the tenth supplemental Rule 65 ter list.
21 In light of the arguments submitted by the Prosecution, and
22 having considered the arguments advanced by the Defence, the
23 Trial Chamber is satisfied that the Prosecution has shown good cause to
24 amend its consolidated exhibit list at this stage of the proceedings, and
25 has demonstrated the prima facie relevance and probative value of these
1 documents in relation to issues raised in the indictment, as well as to
2 the witness's credibility. The Trial Chamber pursuant to Rules 54 and 65
3 ter of the rules find that it is in the interest of justice to grant the
4 addition of the remaining items on the 10th supplemental list to the
5 Prosecution's consolidated exhibit list.
6 Mr. Harmon.
7 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, Ms. Bolton will lead the next witness.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton. Good morning to you, Madam Bolton.
9 MS. BOLTON: Good morning, Your Honour. The next witness for the
10 Prosecution is Ned Krayishnik.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, sir.
13 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please make the declaration, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may be seated.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
20 WITNESS: NED KRAYISHNIK
21 Examination by Ms. Bolton:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krayishnik.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. Are you receiving any translation through your headphones, or are
25 you just receiving the English?
1 A. I may need sometime translation, some words are not that I use
2 every day.
3 Q. Right now are you getting just English, or are you also getting
4 the B/C/S translation?
5 A. English.
6 Q. If you need to switch at any point in time, just let us know,
8 A. Thank you.
9 Q. Okay. Sir, could you tell us in what country you were born?
10 A. I was born in former Yugoslavia
11 Q. Whereabouts?
12 A. West east 20 kilometres from Sarajevo.
13 Q. And what is your ethnicity, sir?
14 A. What is my what?
15 Q. Ethnicity.
16 A. Serbian.
17 Q. While you were living in the former Yugoslavia, did you perform
18 any service with the JNA, the army?
19 A. The Yugoslav Army, yes, I did.
20 Q. When was that?
21 A. I went to the army 1962, until 196 -- 1963 until 1965.
22 Q. And can you tell the Chamber where you were living, what country
23 you were living in between the years 1992 and 1996.
24 A. Canada
25 Q. And could you tell the Chamber approximately how old you were
1 when you first moved to Canada
2 A. I was 22.
3 Q. I'm just going to ask you, if you can, to remember to pause a
4 little bit after my question before you answer so that it can be
5 translated. Okay.
6 A. Sure, thank you.
7 Q. And can you just tell the Chamber very briefly why it was that
8 you left the former Yugoslavia
9 A. Well, it was -- at the time it was a communist system, and I
10 didn't feel any democracy, and my father was monarchist during the Second
11 World War, he was serving in the General Mihajlovic armed forces which
12 was called regular Yugoslavian army.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, did you say he was a soldier in Germany
14 in General Mihajlovic's forces?
15 THE WITNESS: General Mihajlovic's forces.
16 MS. BOLTON:
17 Q. Thank you, I just want to talk to you about your contact with the
18 Office of the Prosecutor, that's the office that I work for. On
19 August 9th of this year, did you have a meeting with myself and a
20 gentleman named Julian Nicholls of the Office of the Prosecutor at a
21 hotel in Canada
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Do you remember those -- the discussions that we had were
24 recorded in any fashion?
25 A. I believe that it was recorded. Actually, it was recorded.
1 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review a transcript of the
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And I'm just going to suggest you pointed out a couple of errors
5 in the transcription during that process.
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. And I'll just identify some of those for the Court. One of them
8 was that there was a gentleman in the transcript who was repeatedly
9 referred to as a Mr. Akanovic. What is that gentleman's actual name?
10 A. Rakanovic.
11 Q. Could you just spell that for the Court reporter, please.
12 A. R-a-k-a-n-o-v-i-c.
13 Q. There was also a misspelling, as I understand it, of the name of
14 a Bishop or a metropolitan, what is his actual name?
15 A. His name was Bishop Irinej.
16 Q. How would you spell that?
17 A. I-r-i-n-e-j.
18 Q. And prior to that first meeting with us on the 9th of August,
19 2009, had you had the opportunity to review any videotapes, diaries,
20 photographs, or any other materials that would refresh your memory?
21 A. Would you repeat the question, please.
22 Q. Prior to that first meeting in August 2009 with myself and
23 Mr. Nicholls, had you had the opportunity to review any video-tapes, or
24 photographs, diaries, anything to refresh your memory about the things we
1 A. No.
2 Q. There was, I'm going to suggest, a second meeting on the 10th of
3 September, 2009, again with myself and this time with an RCMP officer
4 named John McMath. Do you recall that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And at that time did you provide a statement to Officer McMath
7 and myself?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. BOLTON: Could I just -- Court's indulgence. Yes, I'm sorry
10 I'm going to pulling up doc ID 1D04-0461.
11 Q. In a moment, sir, there should be a document appearing on the
12 screen in front of you. While we are waiting for that document to
13 appear, sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber whether during that second
14 set of meetings in Toronto
15 of meetings in Ontario
16 opportunity to review any photographs, videotapes, or other materials to
17 refresh your memory?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Did those materials assist you in refreshing your memory?
20 A. Yes, they did.
21 Q. Okay. There should be a document now before you both in English
22 and B/C/S.
23 MS. BOLTON: And if I could ask the court clerk, please, to go to
24 the last page of each document.
25 Q. In the English document, sir, you should see a signature. Can
1 you tell me whose signature that is?
2 A. It is my signature.
3 Q. And you'll see in paragraph 31, for example, there's a word
4 that's been crossed out Kolevic, and written above it is a different
5 spelling of that word. Could you tell me who -- at whose request that
6 correction was made.
7 A. Mine.
8 Q. And did you have an opportunity to review the statement then and
9 make corrections before you signed it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And having had your memory refreshed as a result of the materials
12 you reviewed, did you make some corrections in that second statement to
13 the original audio-taped statement you'd given?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 MS. BOLTON: I'm done with that document.
16 Q. I want to take you back, sir, to the time-period 1992 to 1996.
17 Are you familiar with an organisation called the - it was a Canadian
18 organisation - called the Serbian Republic Humanitarian Organisation?
19 A. Yes, I am.
20 Q. What kind of an organisation was that?
21 A. It was a humanitarian organisation.
22 Q. Do you recall approximately what year it was established or
24 A. I'm not sure exactly, but I think it was established in 1992
1 Q. Okay. Who were the founders?
2 A. It was registered, I believe, in Hamilton by Mr. Lesic and
3 Jovan Grubor, Ranko Rakanovic, and myself. And there were some other
4 people that I forgot their name now.
5 Q. When we are talking about Hamilton
6 Hamilton, Ontario
7 A. Yes, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
8 Q. And the other gentlemen that you named, Mr. Lesic, Mr. Gruber,
9 Mr. -- is it Jokanovic?
10 A. No, Rakanovic.
11 Q. It's Rakanovic; it's the same person that -- whose name you
12 corrected the spelling of earlier?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were these individuals you knew before the institution was
15 founded, or are these people you met in the course of founding the
17 A. I knew those three individuals before.
18 Q. And what was it that prompted you to establish this organisation?
19 A. Well, we were watching the news and the war started in Bosnia
20 former Yugoslavia
21 they were locked in a house and burned in the house. And then I was
22 watching the news, and I saw that there were the people, saw my own
23 relatives were displaced all over the place, that nobody knew where they
25 Q. So what did you set out to do then by founding this institution?
1 A. Well, we thought that we should be able to get together and try
2 to find those people and assist them in -- in the necessity, whatever,
3 either clothing or food or whatever.
4 Q. Okay. Was the organisation involved in any fundraising in Canada
5 for those purposes?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. And who were the intended recipients of the fundraising or the
8 aid that you intended or hoped to deliver?
9 A. Well, we tried to find it through the government and through the
10 army. The government told us that they wouldn't know where they had --
11 that the army would be able to assist us and find where the people might
12 be and where can we locate them and help them.
13 Q. Let me ask the question in a different way. Was your intention
14 to provide aid to people in what region, first of all?
15 A. Well, there was not really a region. We thought that wherever it
16 was necessary, wherever the people were located or placed or whatever.
17 Or hospital or camps or whatever.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just get some clarity, sir. Was this aid
19 intended for your relatives and distant relatives, or was it intended for
20 everybody in former Yugoslavia
21 manner that you described people locked up in houses and displaced?
22 THE WITNESS: It was in general to help anybody that was in a
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 Madam Bolton.
1 MS. BOLTON:
2 Q. Was the aid that you delivered provided to people of all
4 A. I don't think so because we wouldn't be able to reach any other
5 ethnicities and which was controlled with the other ethnic territories.
6 Q. Now, you indicated that your group did some fundraising. Were
7 they successful in actually raising some money or other tangible goods
8 for delivery to the region?
9 A. It was fairly, not huge quantity, but it was -- we were able to
10 raise the funds from the people that -- because everybody more or less
11 had somebody that was affected.
12 Q. And how would you go about ensuring that the funds reached the
13 people in need? Would you just wire the money over?
14 A. Well, we couldn't wire it. We usually took it over with us. We
15 always had -- our treasurer was always going because he was in charge of
16 it, and somebody would most of the time accompany him. And then when we
17 arrived we would find out where was most needed and how to be located.
18 Q. Who was the treasurer?
19 A. Mr. Lesic.
20 Q. What is his first name?
21 A. Milan
22 Q. Did you personally make any trips to the region between 1992 and
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Could you approximate how many trips you made.
1 A. Approximately I think I made about five, six trips. I'm not
2 exactly sure, but in that vicinity.
3 Q. Okay. I don't intend to ask you about all your trips, sir, but I
4 do want to ask you about the first trip you made. Can you recall what
5 year and what month you made that first trip to the region on behalf of
6 the humanitarian organisation?
7 A. It was in December 1992.
8 Q. Did anybody accompany you?
9 A. From Canada
10 Q. And I am assuming you flew out of Canada, you didn't take a boat?
11 A. Yes. We flew.
12 Q. Where did you -- what country did you fly into?
13 A. We flew to, I believe, Budapest and Hungary
14 drove, we came by taxi.
15 Q. By taxi to where?
16 A. To Belgrade
17 Q. During this trip, what was the -- what was the nature of the aid
18 you were intending to deliver?
19 A. It was money because this was our first trip, and we thought the
20 only thing they could buy what needed to be bought over there, and we had
21 no way of taking it any other way over there.
22 Q. And prior to that first trip, had you any contacts in the region
23 or made any prior arrangements for who was going to get the money?
24 A. No, we did not.
25 Q. So when you arrive in Belgrade
2 A. Then we made some contact and the people, and stayed in Belgrade
3 I think, for a couple of days until we found a better place called Srpska
5 before through the church organisation and diocese.
6 Q. Who was Bishop Irinej?
7 A. He was the Bishop Metropolitan Irinej for United States and
9 Q. And so you ran into him in the Srpska Vila in Belgrade; is that
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. And when you ran into him, did you discuss with him what you were
13 doing there?
14 A. Yes, I did. He was asking me what I'm doing, and I was asking
15 him what he is doing. And he said, Well, it looks like we are on the
16 same mission.
17 Q. Was he able to assist you then in finding a place or somebody to
18 give the funds to?
19 A. Yes, he was. He had a contact with the Metropolitan Nikolas in
20 the Republika Srpska, called Sokolac -- Pale, sorry.
21 Q. Okay. I want to show you another document, sir.
22 MS. BOLTON: Could I have 65 ter 2085.01, please.
23 Q. Again, sir, it should show up on the screen in front of you and
24 in both English and Cyrillic, B/C/S.
25 A. Sorry, what was the question?
1 Q. I haven't asked you a question, yet, sir, but thank you for being
2 so attentive.
3 MS. BOLTON: In the English version, I'm interested in going to
4 page 76, please. And if we could scroll down the page. I have to
5 apologise to my friends across the courtroom. I can sometimes locate
6 things in B/C/S when it's not written in Cyrillic, but I really could not
7 figure out what the corresponding page number was in the Cyrillic
8 document. So I hope that doesn't pose my friends any problem.
9 Mr. Lukic, do you need some time, or?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's not a problem for me, but I
11 would like for the benefit of my client the Cyrillic version to be
12 displayed. Maybe the legal officer can help us, or the usher.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Or maybe, you, Mr. Lukic, if you have identified
14 the page, you can tell us what page it is so that your client can get to
15 the page too. Now, it's page 17 in the English.
16 MS. BOLTON: It's 76 to 78 in the English.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have -- if I had the document in
18 hard copy before me, it would be easier, but all I have is what I see on
19 the screen.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Am I right to say what we have in the B/C/S now on
21 the screen is the first page of the document? Maybe if we can go in that
22 document, deep into the document around 76, 77.
23 THE REGISTRAR: It's page 70.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 70 we are told it is.
25 MS. BOLTON: All right.
1 Q. Sir -- if we could scroll down, please, on the English page.
2 There's an indication in this document. We saw on the first page that
3 this was a transcript of the proceedings of the 23rd session of the
4 National Assembly of the Republika Srpska held on 17th December, 1992.
5 And about two-thirds down this page there's an indication that we have
6 some guests, Serbs from Canada
7 A. Kraisnik.
8 Q. It's spelled differently. Do you know which Mr. Kraisnik that
10 A. Mr. Kraisnik? Are you talking about me, or are you talking --
11 Q. Well, were you at the Serb assembly on the 17th of December,
13 A. Yes, I was.
14 Q. Okay. And if we could move forward in that document, please, to
15 the next page, page 77 in English. I'm sure it will be on the next page
16 in B/C/S as well.
17 A. I'm getting a little bit confused. What is the B/C/S?
18 Q. Well, I'm sorry, that's -- we use that term to refer to Bosnian
19 Serbian Croatian. So when --
20 A. Can we refer to Serbian?
21 Q. I can try to refer to Serbian.
22 A. Please.
23 Q. It's a bad habit.
24 A. Thank you.
25 Q. Certainly. You'll see on the English version, sir, on page 77.
1 If we could scroll up a little bit, there's some text that starts with
2 the name Ned Krayishnik. And scrolling down again on the page, we have a
3 second paragraph that indicates -- starts with saying:
4 "We decided to come here to help as much as we can. Mr. Milan
5 Lesic delivered $15.000 here for the media and propaganda, for I think
6 that we have lost the war the most in that area, and our enemies have
7 been the most successful on that account. In addition, Lesic also
8 decided to make a contribution to the Ministry of Defence and our
9 government, and since you know best where it is most needed, you will
10 solve that the best. He is again given $10.000 personally. Mr. Slobodan
11 Nikolic, an industrious Serb from Jelinek near Belgrade, owns a small
12 machine shop. Somebody knocks on his door every day, and he never says
13 that cannot contribute. He contributes every day, and if it is twice a
14 day, again he gives. We've also brought $10.000 he sent. I, too, am
15 giving $10.000 may name, the $15 .000 given by my brother Lesic..." And
16 then they go on to explain some more.
17 Do you recognise that, sir, as being a portion of the speech that
18 you made to the assembly on that occasion?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And if my math is correct, the total amount of aid then given was
21 about $45.000?
22 A. Probably, yeah. I didn't add it, but, yeah, it would be.
23 Q. Okay. Could you just explain, then. You told us that --
24 MS. BOLTON: I just want pages 76 to 78 of this document marked
25 as an exhibit. That's the portion that we've been dealing with.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 MS. BOLTON: And page 1, please.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Am I right to say this is ID 040461?
4 MS. BOLTON: No, this is 65 ter 2085.01.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: What happened to 040461?
6 MS. BOLTON: I was not seeking to tender it in evidence.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. [Microphone not activated] 65 ter 0885 --
8 2085.1 --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I'm so sorry. Many things
11 going wrong this morning.
12 65 ter 2085.01 admitted into evidence.
13 May it please be given an exhibit number and marked for
15 What did you say, ma'am? Did you say MFI?
16 MS. BOLTON: No, I did not. I often do, but not today.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not today. Thank you.
18 Admitted into evidence.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 02085.01, pages 1, 76, and
20 77 in English; pages 70, 71, and first page in B/C/S shall be
21 Exhibit P2789. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
24 Q. The Chamber will just need a little bit of an explanation, sir,
25 how it came to pass that you were in Belgrade
1 metropolitan, and then ultimately you were in the Serb -- Bosnian Serb
2 Assembly. First of all, where was that Bosnian Serb Assembly meeting
3 that we were referring to?
4 A. Pale.
5 Q. So could you just explain how you came to be connected into Pale?
6 A. Well, we flew by helicopter, Red Cross helicopter. And when we
7 arrived there, then it happened that they had assembly same time, and we
8 were told that we should go to the assembly and give our donation and
9 metropolitan arranged that we get there and address the assembly.
10 Q. So would I be fair in saying that the metropolitan was the one
11 who was able to help you make the contact and so forth?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Prior to December 1992, had you ever met any high-ranking
14 politician in the Republika Srpska?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. And how about any high-ranking military official in the
17 Republika Srpska?
18 A. No.
19 Q. As a result of your attendance at the assembly, did you have the
20 opportunity in December 1992 to meet some military and political
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. I just have a couple of photographs I'd like to show you, sir.
24 MS. BOLTON: And the first is 65 ter 9600.02.
25 THE WITNESS: Are you asking me, or ...
1 MS. BOLTON:
2 Q. Sorry, again, the photograph is going to magically appear on the
3 screen in front of you in a moment.
4 MS. BOLTON: Can that be made a little bigger. Great.
5 Q. Sir, do you recognise this photograph?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Where was this photograph taken?
8 A. I believe this was done in Pale.
9 Q. And what month and year?
10 A. In December 1992.
11 Q. Okay. Going from left to right in the photo, can you help us by
12 identifying the people.
13 A. General Ratko Mladic, President Radovan Karadzic,
14 Mr. Milan Lesic, General Milan Gvero, and myself.
15 Q. Okay. You are the individual with the moustache at the time?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's marked as an exhibit. May it please be given
19 an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
21 Exhibit P2790. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MS. BOLTON: And if I could have 65 ter 9600.03, please.
24 Q. When, relative to the last photo, was this photograph taken?
25 A. This one?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. I believe this was also in Pale.
3 Q. And in terms of the date?
4 A. I believe it was evening, night.
5 Q. Sorry, evening of what day?
6 A. I believe it was 17th.
7 Q. Of?
8 A. December 1992.
9 Q. And again just going from first the back row, left to right.
10 A. Myself; General Gvero, Milan
11 Q. Front row?
12 A. Front row, Bishop Irinej. And the gentleman next to him, I don't
13 recall his name.
14 Q. Okay. And when was this get-together relative to the assembly
15 meeting that you attended?
16 A. I believe this was after the assembly meeting.
17 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so marked. May it please be given an
19 exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this document becomes
21 Exhibit P2791. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MS. BOLTON:
24 Q. You've told us that on that first trip you were in Belgrade and
25 then you visited Pale. Do you recall if you travelled anywhere else in
1 the Republika Srpska on that occasion?
2 A. Yes, we did. From Pale we went to Kasindol. And on the way we
3 stopped on one place, which was right down the main road to Kasindol. I
4 think it's called Trebinje, I'm not sure. I'm sorry, not Trebinje. The
5 -- I cannot recall the name now, sorry.
6 Q. It's all right, sir. Approximately how long did you stay for
7 that -- during that first trip? How long were you in the region?
8 A. I believe we were there altogether two or three days. I'm not
10 Q. Okay. Two or three days in Bosnia
12 A. In Republika Srpska.
13 Q. Okay. When you -- I take it you returned to Canada after this
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you returned to Canada
17 maintain any contact with any of the people you had met during that first
18 trip in December 1992?
19 A. We might have, but I don't remember, maybe later on. I don't
20 know how late or what time. I don't recall that.
21 Q. Okay. You've told us that you've made subsequent trips. During
22 any of your subsequent trips, did you have the opportunity to meet any of
23 the family members of any high-ranking military officials, first?
24 A. My family members in the military?
25 Q. No, their family members.
1 A. My first trip I don't -- no, I didn't meet any family members of
2 the --
3 Q. Later on?
4 A. Later on I did.
5 Q. Whose family members did you meet?
6 A. I met General Mladic wife and daughter, and also I met
7 President Karadzic wife.
8 Q. And were you ever invited to the homes of any politicians in the
9 Republika Srpska?
10 A. I was invited to Momcilo Krajisnik once for a very brief, maybe
11 less than an hour. We had a coffee, and it was not too far away from the
12 -- it was in Pale. But I met his, I believe it was three or four
13 children that he had.
14 Q. Okay. Apart from the contact -- sorry, let me just show you a
15 couple of other photos, sir. You've told us you made subsequent trips.
16 MS. BOLTON: Could I have 65 ter 9600.10, please.
17 Q. Okay. Showing you a photo, sir, and it has -- appears to be a
18 date stamp on the lower right corner 93/10/9. First of all, do you
19 recognise this photo?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Are you visible in this photo?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where are you?
24 A. I'm at the left far end.
25 Q. Okay. Where was this photo taken?
1 A. In Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka.
2 Q. Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where is Han Pijesak?
5 A. Han Pijesak is -- I'm not sure. Approximately around
6 40 kilometres from Pale.
7 Q. Okay. And is it --
8 A. East.
9 Q. Sorry. Is it part of the Republika Srpska?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. What was at Han Pijesak?
12 A. It was the headquarters of Serbian army.
13 Q. When you say the Serbian army, are you talking about the Bosnian
14 Serbian army, or the --
15 A. I'm talking about the Bosnian Republika Srpska army.
16 Q. And you also referred to it as Crna -- I get this wrong.
17 A. Crna Rijeka.
18 Q. Exactly, Crna Rijeka. Is there any difference between
19 Han Pijesak and Crna Rijeka?
20 A. It's the same vicinity, maybe just outskirt of the town.
21 Q. And can you just assist us, please, in -- first of all, is the
22 date stamp correct of 93/10/9?
23 A. I don't see the date on it this one.
24 Q. On the lower right-hand corner.
25 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And can you assist us going around the table from front
4 left as to who is there.
5 A. Mr. Milan Lesic, General Milan Gvero, and Mrs. Mladic.
6 Q. So you've obviously skipped yourself.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. And on the other side of the table then, there's only one woman
9 there, that's Mrs. Mladic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Next to her?
12 A. I believe the -- it's a very not clear picture. I think
13 General Mladic, but I cannot see it very clear.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And then next to him is Marko Sandalj and General Milosevic.
16 Q. General Dragomir Milosevic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the man you indicated was next to Mr. General Milosevic is
19 from where?
20 A. Canada
21 Q. And how do you spell his last name?
22 A. S-a-n-d-a-l-j.
23 Q. And is he part of the humanitarian work that you were doing?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. BOLTON: Brief indulgence.
1 If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: So marked. May it please be given an exhibit
4 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes Exhibit P2792. Thank you.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MS. BOLTON: And if I could have 65 ter 9600.11, please.
7 Q. All right. There's a couple of people in this photo that don't
8 appear to have been in the one we just dealt with. This is also dated
9 93/10/9. Is this the same or a different location as the last photo we
11 A. Same location.
12 Q. The gentleman to the far right of the photo at the very front, do
13 you recognise him or remember his name?
14 A. At the head table?
15 Q. At the far right of the photo, the person -- you can see the
16 badge on his uniform.
17 A. General Ratko Mladic.
18 Q. No, that's the head of the table. I'm talking about far right of
19 the photo, the person who has got the date stamp over top of them.
20 A. I don't know his name. He was there, but I never met him after
21 or before.
22 Q. Okay. Do you recognise persons who are seated next to
23 General Dragomir Milosevic?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are going to confuse us, Madam Bolton. If you
25 start with this gentleman, why don't you go around the table.
1 MS. BOLTON: We'll go around the table, then.
2 Q. Let's start with the gentleman on the far left of the photo, sir.
3 With the --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the far left of the photo. You started on the
5 far right the photo. Now where are you going?
6 MS. BOLTON: I was going to go left to right, Your Honour, as
7 opposed to --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If you go left to right, now you are
9 starting with the man with the mustache, which I suspect is the witness.
10 MS. BOLTON: The gentleman on the far left in the army uniform.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, the gentleman right at the beginning of the
12 table. The man sitting opposite the man with the date stamp.
13 MS. BOLTON: Yes, that's who we are going to start with.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
15 MS. BOLTON: Okay.
16 Q. Did you understand, Mr. Krayishnik, that I'd like to start with
17 the gentleman on the far left of the photo with the mustache in the
18 uniform, and could we go around the table from him?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I want to be sure we are on the same page. When
20 you say far left, I'm talking approximate of the person near left, the
21 very first person on the left.
22 MS. BOLTON: Yes, I'm talking -- that's the same person we are
23 talking about, Your Honour. I'm saying only saying far, because he is
24 the farthest left in the photo, I guess. But he is the closest person in
25 the photo.
1 Q. So to make a simple matter very complicated, as I like to do, if
2 we could start with that gentleman and go around the table, please,
3 Mr. Krayishnik.
4 A. We are starting from my left and going around?
5 Q. Correct.
6 A. It's General Dragomir Milosevic, and next to him I don't see the
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. I can't remember who was it. And then next looks like it's a
10 woman; I don't know her either. And then next one is General
11 Ratko Mladic wife and General Mladic. And General Milan Gvero. And I'm
12 not sure, it looks like there is somebody between General Gvero and
13 Mr. Lesic, but I don't see the -- then I see Milan Lesic, and then
14 myself, and Marko Sandalj.
15 Q. And you've already identified the other gentleman.
16 A. Which other gentleman?
17 Q. Sorry, the person next to Mr. Sandalj, closest to the camera.
18 A. Yeah, that is myself.
19 Q. No, the person on the other side of Mr. Sandalj.
20 A. Milan
21 Q. No, the --
22 A. Oh, the first person.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I don't know. I don't recognise that person.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. I don't know him.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me --
3 THE WITNESS: You were talking about the person with the numbers
4 on his shoulder. Is that what you're asking?
5 MS. BOLTON:
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Yeah. I don't know that gentleman.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me asking this question. The person that
9 you point as yourself doesn't seem to have a moustache this time; am I
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's on the right-hand side.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right, the second person on the right-hand
14 THE WITNESS: Third person on the right.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Third person. Okay, so we can't see your face.
16 We can't whether you do or do not have. Okay.
17 Now, you are the third person. The second person on the right,
18 who is that?
19 THE WITNESS: Marko Sandalj.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And the person on the other side of you,
21 that's the person that you don't know?
22 THE WITNESS: The person to me.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The person on your right, on the right of you.
24 THE WITNESS: On my right with the numbers on the shoulder, I
25 don't know him, yeah.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, thank you so much.
2 MS. BOLTON:
3 Q. Sorry. I think we've confused things. If you were seated at the
4 table, sir, the person who was on your right with the striped shirt and
5 the jacket and the dark hair slicked back?
6 A. That's Milan
7 Q. Okay.
8 MS. BOLTON: If I could have that marked as the next exhibit,
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is marked. May it please be given an exhibit
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This document becomes
13 Exhibit P2793.
14 MS. BOLTON:
15 Q. Other than having contact with some military officials and
16 politicians from the Republika Srpska in the region, between 1992 and
17 1996 did you have any contact with any politicians or military people
18 outside of the Balkans?
19 A. Oh, I'm sorry, I did one time in New York.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MS. BOLTON: If I could just show you -- sorry, did you want to
22 take a break, Your Honour? I'm not sure.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. I realise -- it looks like we've gone far
24 beyond it, in fact. If we could -- what time do we normally take our
25 break? We would have taken it at quarter past to quarter to. Okay.
1 Let's take it to 11.00.00 and come back. Court adjourned.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you proceed, Madam Bolton, just if the
5 record could just show that the Chamber has been advised that for the
6 first 12 minutes of this morning's session we were not broadcast. It was
7 not because we were in private session, it is simply because there was a
8 technical hitch. And I don't think the public missed much because what
9 was happening then was just introductory remarks about the witness.
10 You may proceed.
11 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Sir, you told us that you made several trips on behalf of your
13 humanitarian organisation to deliver, amongst other things, money to
14 organisations in the Republika Srpska. Can you tell me if you had any
15 mechanism for proving to the people who donated the money in Canada
16 in fact you had done what you said you would do and delivered it to the
17 Republika Srpska?
18 A. Yes. It was video-taped camera, mostly Mr. Lesic had. And when
19 they were delivery, whatever it was, it was a video camera, and we showed
20 -- when we returned back home we would show to our board directors and
21 sometime to public when we were fundraising again.
22 Q. So did Mr. -- how much videotape did Mr. Lesic generate sort of
23 typically in a trip?
24 A. I don't know. I never kept a record of that.
25 Q. Okay. Is Mr. Lesic camera shy?
1 A. Not at all.
2 Q. And other than -- we've seen some photographs here as well, how
3 often were photographs taken?
4 A. I presume whenever it was necessary.
5 Q. Were you doing any videotaping or taking any photographs
6 yourself, or was it others in your group?
7 A. I never took any photographs at all. Because I wasn't able to
8 handle the camera physically.
9 Q. And that's because, as I understand, you had loss of a hand
10 earlier in life; is that fair?
11 A. Yes, true.
12 Q. If I can take your mind now, sir, to July 1995. Could you tell
13 me if you travelled to the Republika Srpska or Serbia in July 1995?
14 A. Yes, we did.
15 Q. When you say "we did," can you tell me who all was on that trip?
16 A. Well, on trip with me was Mrs. Ksenija Zarubin and
17 Mr. Branko Zarubin, and Mr. Milan Lesic, and myself.
18 Q. You said trip with you, were there others that didn't travel with
20 A. Yeah, there was Mr. Rakanovic brothers, Ranko and Ilija.
21 Q. Can you just spell, you've already spelled for us, I think Ranko.
22 Ilija, can you spell that for us?
23 A. I-l-i-j-a.
24 Q. Okay. And what association, if any, did Mr. and Mrs. Zarubin and
25 the two Rakanovic brothers have to the humanitarian organisation we've
1 been talking about?
2 A. Mr. Zarubin, fairly wealthy guy, and they were donating money,
3 and we delivered a scanner to VMA. It was in the name of Mrs. Zarubin,
4 she was a nurse in her profession.
5 Q. Okay. You are giving us quite a bit of information; I'm going to
6 come back to that in a moment. I just have a couple of questions. First
7 of all, these people who were accompanying you, where did these people,
8 not currently reside, but at the time what country were they residing?
9 A. Canada
10 Q. And in terms of the ethnicity of these people that you've
11 mentioned, what would their ethnicity be?
12 A. Serbian.
13 Q. Okay. And what was the -- you've mentioned here something about
14 a scanner being delivered to the VMA. First of all, what is the VMA?
15 A. It was army hospital in Belgrade
16 Q. Okay. And was it the full scanner that you were delivering?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when we are talking about a scanner, we are talking about
19 some kind of, I take it, medical device?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How did you know that the VMA needed a scanner?
22 A. General Mladic faxed to Mr. Lesic the number of the item and when
23 we -- when he got it, he called me and told me what he had, and then we
24 were looking to buy it.
25 Q. Do you have any recollection of approximately how much this part
2 A. I believe we paid something around $46.000.
3 Q. That's Canadian dollars?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And how did you -- sorry, you purchased it then in Canada
6 A. Yes, in Mississauga
7 Q. Okay. I'm not going to make you spell Mississauga for the
8 record. I'll tell the reporter later how it's spelled.
9 Did -- I take it from your initial answer about how you were
10 travelling, did you travel in two groups then, two separate groups of
12 A. Four of us that I mentioned travelled together. Mr. and
13 Mrs. Zarubin and Mr. Lesic and myself. We travelled together to
15 Q. So Bulgaria
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Why was it that you went into Bulgaria first?
18 A. That was the only flight that was available that we can fly
19 closer to Yugoslavia
20 Q. Okay. Do you recall the approximate date that you flew over?
21 A. Approximate, yeah, probably around 15th or 14th, something like
23 Q. Okay. And the Rakanovics, at what point did you meet up with
25 A. We met them in Belgrade
1 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you a photograph, sir.
2 MS. BOLTON: 65 ter 9600.02.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Haven't we already seen that?
4 MS. BOLTON: I may have the wrong 65 ter number. If I may just
5 have a moment, please. Sorry, I'm dyslexic, I think. 9600.20.
6 Q. This photograph, sir, if you look in the bottom right-hand corner
7 has a date 16/7/95
8 A. You said bottom right corner. Oh, okay, I see it. Yeah.
9 16/7/95, yeah.
10 Q. Best of your recollection, is that date correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Looking at the -- going again from left to right in the
13 photograph, first there is a gentleman in a blue suit on the far left of
14 the photograph.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Who is that?
17 A. Mr. Ranko Rakanovic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that a gentleman?
19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that a gentleman, the person in the blue suit?
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
22 MS. BOLTON:
23 Q. The person standing next to him with a striped shirt whose face
24 we can't see, are you able to say who that is?
25 A. No, I'm not.
1 Q. Okay. The person who is removing their coat and wearing a white
2 shirt, who is that?
3 A. I don't see his clear face, but I think it's Mr. Lesic.
4 Q. The gentleman seated on the couch next to Mr. -- where Mr. Lesic
5 is standing?
6 A. Branko Zarubin.
7 Q. And the woman seated next to him?
8 A. Is Mrs. Zarubin.
9 Q. And the gentleman closest --
10 A. But I don't see her face. It looks like somebody holding a hand.
11 And I don't see her face. I only see --
12 Q. I have a print copies of these photos, sir. If at any point you
13 need to see a better version of them, just let me know.
14 A. I'm just saying that I am assuming that this is Mrs. Zarubin
15 because, like I say, I don't see her face.
16 Q. Okay. And the person that you think is then closest to us in the
17 photo next to Mrs. Zarubin?
18 A. I cannot identify that person. I don't know who it is.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MS. BOLTON: With the Court's permission perhaps I could show the
21 witness an actual print copy of the photograph which is much clearer.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may do so, ma'am, after your opposite number
23 has had a look at it.
24 MS. BOLTON: Certainly.
25 THE WITNESS: This is myself.
1 MS. BOLTON: Sir, if you could just leave the photograph with the
3 Q. Just for the record then, the person you couldn't identify, the
4 gentleman --
5 A. Yeah, now I see the picture. This is Mrs. Zarubin.
6 Q. Okay. It's Mrs. Zarubin and you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Do you remember where this photograph was taken?
9 A. In Belgrade
10 Q. Is that the full name of the hotel?
11 A. I believe so.
12 Q. Can you see what the object is on the table in front of
13 Mrs. Zarubin? Can you identify that?
14 A. I assume a camera. Looks like a camera.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MS. BOLTON: If that photograph, please, could be marked as the
17 next exhibit.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so marked. May it please be given an
19 exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
21 Exhibit P2794. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MS. BOLTON:
24 Q. You told us that the intended destination for the scanner was an
25 army hospital, the VMA, in Belgrade
1 associated with?
2 A. Well, that was Yugoslav Army.
3 Q. And you've also told us that -- sorry, I don't think I've asked
4 this before. Your organisation, was anyone in the Federal Republic
6 receive aid from your organisation?
7 A. I don't think so, but the Serbian army from Republika Srpska,
8 most of them, they were treated at the VMI -- VMA.
9 Q. All right. Sir, I'm going to start by showing you some video
10 footage. And we'll be stopping and starting at different points, and
11 then I'll be asking you some questions, okay.
12 MS. BOLTON: It's for the record -- sorry, Court's indulgence.
13 The 65 ter number is 9597. And I'll indicate to assist the Court as well
14 that there is a full transcription of the audio available in B/C/S and
15 English at 65 ter 9597.01, but there are also subtitles that will follow
16 the video as it plays. Okay. Hopefully that was clear.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But for what -- for purposes of this clip you are
18 going to play, the 65 ter is 9597, without a point number?
19 MS. BOLTON: Yes, that's correct.
20 If we could start the tape at the 1 minute mark, and then we'll
21 be stopping it at 1 minute and 6 seconds.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Switch off your microphone if you want to whisper
24 to your --
25 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, thank you.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MS. BOLTON:
3 Q. Okay. That's a very short clip. Did you recognise the location
4 of that clip at all?
5 A. Could you back the picture, please, because I only see now a
6 couple of feet.
7 Q. No problem.
8 A. Somebody's --
9 MS. BOLTON: Okay. Let's go back to about -- first, about the
10 1.02 second mark. 1.01. Okay.
11 Q. We are now at 1.01.08 seconds. Do you recognise that location?
12 A. It looks like it's in Belgrade
13 cannot be precise on this.
14 Q. Do you recognise -- we were looking before at a photo and there
15 was somebody with a striped shirt we couldn't identify. Do you recognise
16 the person with the striped shirt in this photograph?
17 A. I seen him, but I don't know his name, or I don't know who he
19 Q. Okay. And how about the gentleman he is speaking with?
20 A. I believe this is Mr. Zarubin, Branko Zarubin.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MS. BOLTON: If we could just fast forward a couple of seconds to
23 1.03, let's try. 1.04.
24 Q. Do you recognise the person on the phone?
25 A. I don't. I can't see his face.
1 Q. That's fine. We are going to restart the footage, sir. And this
2 next segment is longer. I'm going to play through the segment once, and
3 then we'll backtrack, and I'll ask you to make some identification.
5 MS. BOLTON: So this next segment is starting at approximately
6 1 minute and 7 seconds, and it's going until -- I believe it's about
7 13 minutes and 18 seconds.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MS. BOLTON:
10 Q. First of all, sir, were you present at the meeting that's
11 captured on the footage we just played?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. I'm going to ask for assistance to go back and identify some
14 people. If we could go to the 1 minute and 12 second -- well, actually,
15 where we've stopped the video right now, 13 minutes 18.7 seconds, who is
16 the gentleman drinking out of the cup?
17 A. General Ratko Mladic.
18 MS. BOLTON: If we could go, please, to the 1 minute and
19 57 second mark, please. Okay.
20 Q. The gentleman on the far left at the 1.57 mark with the glasses
21 and the mustache, who is that?
22 A. That was me.
23 Q. The gentleman seated next to with you the white shirt and the
25 A. Ilija Rakanovic.
2 A. Mrs. Ksenija Zarubin.
3 Q. And do you recognise this person on the far right of the photo?
4 A. I don't.
5 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If we could advance to 3 minutes and
6 46 seconds, please. Okay. Thank you.
7 Q. The gentleman who has the suit on, on the far left of the photo
8 looking at General Mladic?
9 A. Mr. Milan Lesic.
10 Q. Do you know the woman on the far side of General Mladic?
11 A. I don't have a clear picture, but it looks like, what I see,
12 Mrs. Mladic.
13 MS. BOLTON: Could we just advance a couple of seconds, please.
14 Q. Does that help you at all, sir?
15 A. A little bit, but I think that's Mrs. Mladic.
16 Q. How about the gentleman in the white uniform?
17 A. I don't know him.
18 Q. Do you know what his position was?
19 A. I think he was a doctor from ...
20 MS. BOLTON: If we could advance to the 6 minute and 9 second
21 mark, please.
22 Q. I just want to replay a little section of the tape because in the
23 transcript the speaker isn't identified, and I'm hoping you can help me
24 identify who is speaking.
25 MS. BOLTON: So if we could play from 6.09 to 6.28.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MS. BOLTON:
3 Q. We played to the 6.30 mark on the tape. The person who is
4 speaking at that juncture is who?
5 A. Ranko Rakanovic.
6 MS. BOLTON: And if we could advance to the 12 minute and
7 6 second mark, please.
8 Q. Do you recognise this gentleman?
9 A. I seen him, but I don't remember his name.
10 Q. Okay. You told us that you were present at this meeting. Can
11 you tell us if the footage accurately or does not accurately reflect what
12 happened in that meeting.
13 A. I believe this was after we made the delivery of the scanner.
14 Q. Okay. Sir, is the footage an accurate representation of what
15 happened at that meeting, or has it been changed in some way?
16 A. I don't understand the question.
17 Q. Sorry, does the footage correspond with your memory of what
18 happened with that meeting, or is it different in some way?
19 A. No, it's just, like I said, we were in the hospital in the -- I
20 believe it's a boardroom or something that looks like it. I'm not
21 certain of it. Can you go back maybe that I can see the room a little
22 more clear.
23 Q. Okay. We are just advancing backwards slowly. Can you recognise
24 that room?
25 A. Yeah, I think this was in -- at the hospital in VMA.
1 Q. VMA is VMA in English?
2 A. VMA, yeah.
3 Q. When General Mladic was speaking, he referred to a tube and a
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. What was he talking about?
7 A. He was talking about that scanner.
8 Q. So the scanner that you brought --
9 A. The tube, yeah. The scanner tube, yeah.
10 Q. The scanner tube is what you brought?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. He also made reference to making some arrangements for cars to
13 come to something he referred to as the Intercontinental. What is the
15 A. I believe it's a hotel in Belgrade.
16 Q. Is that the same or a different hotel than where you were
18 A. It could be the same. I could have been mistakenly thought it
19 was Hyatt, maybe it was the intercontinental hotel.
20 Q. Have you had occasion to over the years to stay at both?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recall approximately what time of day this meeting in the
23 VMA boardroom was taking place?
24 A. I believe it was late afternoon.
25 Q. You said earlier that you thought you arrived on either the 14th
1 or the 15th of July, 1995
2 to the best of your recollection on either the 14th or the 15th of July?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And prior to this meeting in the boardroom on the 16th of July,
5 had you had any contact with him?
6 A. I didn't.
7 Q. Did General Mladic or anybody else explain what General Mladic
8 was doing in Belgrade
9 A. No, I don't recall that -- did any explanation or reason.
10 Q. Did he or anyone else indicate how he had spent the first part of
11 the day up until the late afternoon?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Just a couple of questions about some of the things that were
14 said in that segment. One of the suggestions that General Mladic made --
15 MS. BOLTON: And to assist my friends, this appears in the
16 English transcript at page 2, lines 31 and following.
17 Q. Was he made a suggestion that -- I want to quote it correctly.
18 He said:
19 "With all these people who participated in this, you should make
20 a list and then you will come to my place and then I will give you a
21 letter of appreciation, and we will list all the people who took part in
22 this process of acquiring this particular spare part. They will have my
23 signature which proves that this has been delivered here. It's all on
24 the camera. Do we understand each other?"
25 First of all, what did you understand him to mean when he was
1 talking about my place?
2 A. That I wasn't sure. But I think we met after that at
3 Crna Rijeka.
4 Q. Okay. And did you, in fact, follow up and go to Crna Rijeka for
5 that purpose?
6 A. Yes, we stopped in Crna Rijeka and when we -- and we went to Pale
7 from Crna Rijeka.
8 Q. Okay. Mr. Rakanovic, when he was making his speech, he made a
9 reference -- and this is at page 4, lines 20 to 24 of the transcript. He
11 "I don't want to bother you now with the stories how we came
12 here. We purchased what you wanted us to. I hope -- no, I don't hope,
13 I'm sure we are going to the same in future as well, if necessary. I'd
14 -- I would just like to tell you that the members of the Humanitarian
15 Organisation of Republika Srpska send their regards, wishing you all good
16 and safe journey to Gorazde, should it be."
17 Could you tell me what conversation there had been up to that
18 point in time about anyone going to Gorazde?
19 A. Well, Mr. Rakanovic, he is from Gorazde, and his brother, I
20 think, and they had family just before Gorazde, a little town, I forgot
21 the name of it. I think he was referring to that, that they were going
22 to Gorazde himself.
23 Q. So you think he was addressing himself when wishing himself a
24 good and safe journey to Gorazde?
25 A. Well, he was -- yeah, that I think he was referring that would be
1 safe passage or that they can get there.
2 Q. His actual words are "wishing you all." And I'm just wondering
3 who the "you" is.
4 A. You mean Mr. Rakanovic says?
5 Q. Yes, Mr. Rakanovic says: "Wishing you all and safe journey to
6 Gorazde, should it be."
7 A. I really don't remember paying that attention that he was
8 referring to.
9 Q. Okay. And going back to my original question, had there been any
10 discussion of anyone going to Gorazde other than Mr. Rakanovic up to that
11 point in time, that you remember?
12 A. No.
13 Q. General Mladic indicated -- again this is at page 3 of the
14 transcript at lines, first 6 and 7, he said:
15 "And now you can -- I'm going to see what the Serbs have been
16 doing at Zepa." And then further down the page at lines 21 to 30 he
17 addresses himself to the doctor and makes the suggestion that these
18 people, it says:
19 "Doctor, I'd like to say one more thing afterwards while you were
20 waiting. I'd like to ask you people since you are -- they saved a lot of
21 our people, they have been procuring medicine, prosthesis, they have
22 provided assistance to hospital, they have accommodated wounded people,
23 both Milan Lesic and Mr. Zagarac's son," Milan Lesic interrupts and says
24 "Dejan Zagarac" --
25 A. Dejan Zarubin.
1 Q. Zarubin. Okay, so the transcript should be Zarubin. Okay.
2 A. Zarubin.
3 Q. General Mladic continues by saying:
4 "Our wounded men, to talk with them here, maybe some of them have
5 relatives here. After all, we all have relatives here."
6 What I understood is that General Mladic was suggesting that you
7 could visit some of the wounded men; is that fair?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And did you in fact do that?
10 A. Yes, we did.
11 MS. BOLTON: If we could return to the tape to the 13 minute and
12 18 second mark. We have a short second that lasts until approximately
13 15 minutes and 53 seconds that I am going to play for you.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MS. BOLTON:
16 Q. The gentleman who was speaking on the phone in the last footage
17 we just watched, who is that?
18 A. General Ratko Mladic.
19 Q. Do you recall where he was placing that phone call from?
20 A. No.
21 MS. BOLTON: Can we go back to 14 minutes and 42 seconds for a
22 second, please.
23 Q. It doesn't move the transcript, so I'll work off of the
24 transcript. At page 7 of the transcript in the English version at lines
25 -- starting at lines 33, General Mladic said:
1 "Just send them a cablegram and tell them I will see them there
2 so that they don't hit me. Let them pound the NATO. Fine. How are the
3 things up there at Vinko's? And what about Vinko?"
4 Do you know who the Vinko was that he was referring to?
5 A. No, I don't.
6 Q. Do you know where he was placing the call to?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Or who was at the other end?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you know who taped him on the phone?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that on page 45, line 7,
13 the witness already said that he knows nothing about this phone
14 conversation. I believe that Ms. Bolton is now trying to elicit more
15 answers from the witness. She may want to ask him whether he remembers
16 being present there at all, and then it will be clear whether additional
17 questions about this video footage can be asked.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
19 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I need to locate in the transcript his
20 initial answer. I just need a moment, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure what you mean by initial
22 answer, but I think what Mr. Lukic was referring to is page 45, line 7,
23 Do you recall where he was placing that phone call from? And he says,
24 No. Later you asked him, Do you know where he was placing the call to?
25 That's at page 45, line 19. And he says again, No.
1 MS. BOLTON: You have correctly identified the difference in my
2 questions, Your Honour, and I understood he was saying he didn't know
3 where General Mladic was standing with the phone, and I then asked a
4 different question, and he did not say he doesn't know anything about the
5 call. I have, however, asked all that nature of questions that I'm going
6 to ask about the call. So if I could move on to the next question,
7 Your Honour?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure Mr. Lukic's objection has been
9 answered, if it was an objection. And neither do I actually remember
10 what the objection was. Can you articulate your objection again,
11 Mr. Lukic, please.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to be leading, but my
13 objection was that I understood the witness as saying that he knows
14 nothing about this video footage. I think the question should have been
15 asked, does he know anything about this telephone conversation. If he
16 said no, all the other questions would be irrelevant. I don't mind if
17 the witness is asked if he had heard about Vinko, but everything further
18 that was asked about this telephone conversation - and again I don't want
19 to be leading - but I understood the witness is saying he knows nothing
20 about this telephone conversation.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you are telling us two things, Mr. Lukic, and
22 I'm not quite sure which is which. First you say he said he doesn't know
23 anything about the footage. Now you are saying he doesn't know anything
24 about -- he should have been asked about the telephone call. Now you say
25 he doesn't know anything about the telephone call. Can you point us to
1 the transcript to what you are saying he said which you are objecting to.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. That's
3 precisely the reference you gave. Page 45, the question in line 4 and
4 the answers up to line 8. And from these answers, I understood that the
5 witness doesn't know where this video footage was taken. And from that,
6 I inferred that the witness has no knowledge, and I hope this makes my
7 objection clear.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, it is not clear, sir, because nowhere in
9 that passage does it refer to his knowledge about the footage.
10 The questions that were put and the question that you referred to
11 when you first stood up was at page 45, line 7: "Do you know where he
12 was placing that call from?" He doesn't know where he was placing the
13 call from. Later:
14 "Do you know where he was placing the call to?" He doesn't know
15 where the call was placed to. That has nothing to do with the footage.
16 If you look at this footage right now as it stands on the screen, the
17 next thing is he is being addressed, so he is present there. He is
18 present during the footage. "Where were you wounded?"
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm convinced, I withdraw my
20 objection. It had been my impression based on the previous answer. No,
21 I'm not going to comment any further because of the witness.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
23 Yes, Madam Bolton
24 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Just one last passage of this phone call I wanted to ask about
1 was that at the end of the conversation, and this appears in -- Court's
2 indulgence. Page 8 of the English transcript. General Mladic at about
3 lines 7 and 8 says -- 7 through 10, sorry, says:
4 "They are pounding in two stages. There are wounded as well.
5 They are at Zepa. Let us go."
6 Then an unidentified man says:
7 "At Zepa. Is it ready, Stevo?"
8 And General Mladic responds:
9 "It is ready, man."
10 I'm just wondering if at that point in time you had been privy to
11 any conversations either with General Mladic or anyone else as to what
12 was happening at Zepa?
13 A. No, I did not, and I didn't pay any attention to it. If I didn't
14 see this picture, I wouldn't recall that at all.
15 MS. BOLTON: If we could continue with the footage, I'm going to
16 show you a segment that lasts from 15 minutes and 53 seconds, to
17 16 minutes and 47 seconds.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MS. BOLTON:
20 Q. Sir, were you present when that footage was taken?
21 A. Yes, I was.
22 Q. And where was that taken?
23 A. It was in the VMA hospital.
24 Q. Okay. Did you speak to any of the patients in the hospital?
25 A. I did.
1 Q. Okay. And the individuals you spoke with, were they civilians or
3 A. They were not in any uniform. Nobody was in bed in uniform, they
4 were all in patient's uniform. But I assume they were soldiers.
5 Actually, I was looking for my nephew who had been wounded in beginning
6 of the war. And I was never able to locate him.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, just so that we synchronise back to
8 our normal time, do indicate when you are ready to -- when it is
10 MS. BOLTON: I have just one or two more questions on this area
11 and then we'll break.
12 Q. You indicated you assumed that these were soldiers. What was it
13 that you either saw or heard that made you assume these were soldiers?
14 A. Because they were all wounded, and I have discussion also that
15 mostly were soldiers in the hospital.
16 Q. Okay. And do you remember the approximate time of day this was?
17 A. It was in the evening.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MS. BOLTON: Then this would be a convenient time to break,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll then take a break and come back at half past
22 12.00. Court adjourned.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
1 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
2 Q. Sir, we are going to continue playing this footage. We are now
3 at, I believe, the 16 minute and 48 second mark. And this next segment
4 lasts until approximately 21 minutes and 13 seconds.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE WITNESS: Can you turn this down a little bit, it's too
7 strong on my ears. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MS. BOLTON:
11 Q. Unless I missed something, sir, I didn't actually see Mr. Lesic
12 in that footage. Do you know where Mr. Lesic was?
13 A. I don't know. I think he was -- he came later on.
14 Q. Okay. Do you know who was operating the camera?
15 A. No, I don't.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. Do you know where General Mladic was, if he was present at that
20 A. No, he was not.
21 Q. Okay. And I'm sorry, I should have asked, were you present in
22 that meeting?
23 A. Yes, I was.
24 Q. And where was that meeting taking place?
25 A. In the VMA. VMA.
1 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If we could continue, I'm going to play you
2 another short segment, sir, starting at 21.13 to 23.30.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MS. BOLTON:
5 Q. Sir, were you present when this footage was taken?
6 A. I believe that I was. I don't see myself there, but I think I
8 Q. There was -- do you know who the individual was or is who was
9 giving this speech, thanking Mr. Lesic and the other Canadians?
10 A. They introduce him as a professor or something.
11 Q. And do you recall if Mr. Lesic was there to receive the thanks or
13 A. Yes, I think I heard him speaking at the back.
14 Q. And do you recall whether or not General Mladic was present for
15 this part?
16 A. No, he was not.
17 Q. Sorry?
18 A. No, he was not.
19 Q. Okay. I've showed you five segments on this tape from -- dated
20 July 16th, 1995
21 appear in the tape is the order in which they happened, or not?
22 A. Will you repeat the question, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I come back to my objection of
25 earlier. The witness was not asked whether he was present during the
1 segment when General Mladic was talking on the phone. I did not hear
2 that question from the Prosecutor. I was expecting Mrs. Bolton to ask if
3 the witness was present, but if he wasn't present, then he is not able to
4 answer this one either, whether the chronology is correct.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, could you please help me to understand
6 your objection. You start off by saying I come back to my objection of
7 earlier, now that objection of earlier as I understand it you withdrew.
8 Now I don't know -- and then you say the witness was not asked whether he
9 was present during the segment when General Mladic was talking on the
10 phone. That was in the previous segment, it was not this segment. Now I
11 did not hear the question from the Prosecutor. I was expecting
12 Ms. Bolton to ask if the witness was present, but if he wasn't present
13 then he is not able to answer this one either. But he has just been
14 asked now after being asked about several people, Madam Bolton says, Oh,
15 I should have asked you this question earlier, were you present during
16 this footage? This is now at page 51 line 16:
17 "Sir, were you present when this footage was taken?" This very
18 footage we are talking about.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understand that, Your Honour. But
20 now Ms. Bolton is asking the witness whether he remembers whether these
21 five segments shown to him are in the correct chronology. Concerning one
22 of the segments, I know that the witness was not present. That's the
23 telephone conversation of General Mladic. That's why I believe this
24 question is not right. How can the witness know if the chronology is
25 correct when he was not present during one of them? Concerning four
1 segments, the witness was able to remember he was present.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, again I understand now why you say you
3 go back to your previous objection. During that previous objection,
4 again we didn't see anywhere where the witness said he was not present.
5 He said he did not know where the phone was being made from, he did not
6 know where the phone was being made to. But he didn't say he was not
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But he wasn't even asked whether he
9 was present. About the other segments, he was asked, and that's why I
10 withdrew my objection considering it premature.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now, your problem is that he was not asked
12 if he was present. Your problem is not that he was not present, so we
13 still don't know whether he was or was not present because he was not
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Correct. That's right.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you cannot then assume that he was not present
17 because he was not asked, but I hear what you say.
18 Madam Bolton, apparently the witness was not asked whether he was
19 present when Mr. Mladic was speaking on the phone.
20 MS. BOLTON: Yes, I can indicate what -- I've got one concern, is
21 that my friend has made a statement that he knows something about this
22 footage, and he has said that now in front of the witness, so I have
23 concerns now about asking the question my friend want me to ask because
24 he has made that statement to him. But I will go back and ask -- and I
25 can indicate this was something covered in the statement that we've
1 provided to my friend.
2 Q. Sir, the footage where General --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry. He is on his feet. We've got to
4 rule on this objection first before you can ask questions.
5 MS. BOLTON: Sorry.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In no way, Your Honour, did I want to
7 lead in any way. I was trying very hard to avoid it, but I did have to
8 make my position clear.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much for making your position clear.
10 The nub of the objection, Madam Bolton, is that the witness was not asked
11 if he was present during this footage when Mr. Mladic was talking on the
12 phone, and, therefore, it is not known at this point in time whether or
13 not he was present during that footage.
14 Now, do you have any response to that objection or that statement
15 by the Defence?
16 MS. BOLTON: My -- I'm happy to go back and ask that question,
17 Your Honour. I do want to indicate though, that for the record at pages
18 53, lines 8 to 9, that's where my friend's statement occurs that causes
19 me concern in going back and asking that question. But I will ask it,
20 and then I may need to make reference to the witness's statement.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm really sorry to interrupt. Only
22 now do I see what Madam Bolton is indicating, page 53, line 8. It must
23 be a misinterpretation because I never said that I knew the witness
24 wasn't present. We can check the audiotapes, but I'm quite sure I didn't
25 say that. Maybe I said I know for sure that the witness wasn't asked,
1 but I understand Madam Bolton's concern now based on her understanding,
2 but we can check the audiotapes and see if I was correctly interpreted on
3 page 53, line 8.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll accept that you were incorrectly
5 interpreted. What then do you propose as a solution, Mr. Lukic, given
6 your objection and given Madam Bolton's problem about having to put the
7 question in light of the misinterpretation that was given to your
8 statement? How shall we proceed? Shall she go ahead and ask the
9 question, or do you think the question should not be asked?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] perhaps because I suppose the witness
11 knows my language very well, one solution would be to ask the witness and
12 ask him to confirm that I really said what I said, although he is
13 listening in English, and another possibility is for the Prosecutor to
14 ask the witness if he remembers being present.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'll take the latter.
16 MS. BOLTON: I would ask, in light of what has happened,
17 Your Honour, that I be given permission to question the witness about
18 what he told us about his presence at that segment in his information
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] You asked him whether he
21 was present during that session, but -- I am sorry. If you asked him
22 whether he was present during that footage, it wouldn't resolve your
23 problem? If you could ask that question first. Maybe you can go on to
24 other things.
25 MS. BOLTON: All right. I'll ask.
1 Q. Sir, did you have the opportunity, first of all, to review this
2 footage during proofing -- or, sorry, during previous meetings with the
3 Office of the Prosecutor?
4 A. I believe we did that yesterday.
5 Q. Okay. And were you present when that phone call that we watched
6 earlier was made?
7 A. I don't remember was I present or not, but I just saw that on the
8 screen and -- but I don't remember that I was present.
9 MS. BOLTON: May I have the Court's permission to refresh the
10 witness's memory from the statement that he gave to the Office of the
11 Prosecutor, the signed statement of September 10th, 2009, on this issue.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may do so. But before you do so, I just want
13 to ask the witness, if my memory serves me well, sir, at the end of that
14 telephone discussion, I thought that there was a question addressed to
15 you, your wife, and one of the people from Canada as to whether -- as to
16 when you were wounded. Now, could you have been asked this question if
17 you were absent in that footage?
18 THE WITNESS: Was I absolute that I was present, or -- is that
19 what the question is?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, the question is: could you have been asked
21 this question when were you wounded if you were not present?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't remember. Okay. What did you want to
24 add to, Madam Bolton? You wanted to refresh the witness's memory. Go
1 MS. BOLTON: Yes, thank you.
2 Q. The timing of the footage in question, sir, was from - brief
3 indulgence - 13 minutes and approximately 53 seconds. And I'm going to
4 suggest, sir, that that footage was played for you when we met in
5 September at which time at paragraph 5 of your signed statement you
7 "During the September 8th interview I was shown footage, ERN
8 V000-8440, V000-8440, approximately 1 minute and 6 seconds, to 15 minutes
9 and 51 seconds taken in the VMA Hospital
10 General Ratko Mladic was present along with myself, hospital staff,
11 Ranko Rakanovic, Ilija Rakanovic, Milan Lesic, Branko Zarubin, and
12 Ksenija Zarubin. I can confirm that this footage is authentic."
13 A. That footage is what?
14 Q. Authentic.
15 A. Could you explain what that means?
16 Q. Sir, did you ask me to explain -- genuine, authentic, not
17 doctored, an accurate record of what happened.
18 A. Now, I'm getting kind of confused. I don't -- I remember that
19 you were showing me this in September. I thought that this picture I saw
20 first time yesterday. But I could be that I forgot. I cannot be sure
21 either way.
22 Q. You had the opportunity to review your statement before signing
23 it, we've already established that. Okay. And the time-period of the
24 footage in question is covered in the paragraph where you say:
25 "I can confirm that the footage is authentic" --
1 A. You might --
2 Q. Sorry, sir, I'm not done my question. Does that refresh your
3 memory as to whether you were present when that phone call was made?
4 A. Can you go back with this picture to refresh my memory.
5 Q. Certainly.
6 A. Please.
7 MS. BOLTON: Could we go back to the 13 minute and 18 second
8 mark, please.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just hold it there. Can you look at that,
11 Mr. Lukic. Ratko Mladic is speaking:
12 "Mr. Nedo Krayishnik, and also Mrs. Zarubin, when were you
13 wounded?" Can you see that?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see it on the transcript, but can
15 we play the footage live to see if it --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the video.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it on the video, but
18 I'm following the B/C/S. Can we continue playing.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you continue playing, Madam.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You see, that's the next segment.
22 It's part of the next segment, he is saying these words as they are
23 visiting the patients, I can hear Mr. Mladic, I can hear it in B/C/S. He
24 is addressing obviously one of the patients saying when are you wounded,
25 and introducing the visitors. But this is all part of the next clip.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I'm not able to help. You understand it
2 better than I do. For me it's just one thing, so ...
3 Madam Bolton, you resolve the problem.
4 MS. BOLTON:
5 Q. Yes, sir, now you've had an opportunity to watch it through
6 again. Does that assist you in refreshing your memory as to whether --
7 and you've also heard me read back that you previously confirmed that the
8 footage was authentic. Do either of those things assist you in
9 remembering today whether you were present or not?
10 A. Was I present when Ratko Mladic was on the telephone? Is that
11 what the question is?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. I think I was asked this question before, but I cannot recall was
14 I there or not.
15 Q. Today you can't recall.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. I may say that before, but, like I said, going to this picture
19 because I don't even see myself there or hear any of the -- my friend
20 that they were with me in there, when he was on the telephone.
21 MS. BOLTON: Brief indulgence.
22 Q. A couple of things. First, I take it, can you identify the head
23 that's visible at the bottom of the photo?
24 A. No, I can't.
25 Q. This video, you'd indicated that videos were taken for the
1 purpose of proving to people in Canada
2 promised; correct?
3 A. The previous when we were sitting and talking, is that what you
4 are referring to?
5 Q. Well, I asked you how you made -- how you ensured that people
6 knew that the money went where you promised, and you said that you made
7 video records; correct?
8 A. Right, yes.
9 Q. This tape that I've played you so far, and it's not finished yet,
10 did you ever have an opportunity other than with the Office of the
11 Prosecutor to view this tape?
12 A. I don't recall if I did.
13 Q. Can I refresh your memory on this issue, sir. You signed a
14 proofing note from our conversation of 31st October, 2009, sir?
15 A. Mm-hmm.
16 Q. And in that note, sir, you indicated that with respect to the
17 entire video - we've only played part of it so far - that Mr. Lesic
18 showed the entire video to the board of directors of the humanitarian
19 organisation in Canada
20 your memory as to whether you've seen this before?
21 A. I remember we had this discussion, you and I, and I did made a
22 statement that when we came back that we were showing either boards or
23 sometime when we were fundraising dinner or whatever. But I don't
24 specifically refer to the telephone conversation with General Mladic.
25 What I was referring was in general when we made a delivery, that we --
1 Mr. Lesic was taking a photograph, a video, that he can show when we get
2 back who did we made the delivered, and proof that we delivered it as we
3 were instructed.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you were -- when Mr. Lesic was playing
5 this video back in Canada
6 THE WITNESS: At some of them, yes. Some of them -- I don't know
7 who was he showing all the time. I probably saw some of them and --
8 because I know that was our agreement and promise to the people.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
10 MS. BOLTON:
11 Q. But you acknowledge, sir, that you signed a statement two days
12 ago saying you believed that Mr. Lesic showed the entire video to the
13 board of directors of the humanitarian organisation in Canada after we
14 returned in 1995?
15 A. I did say that and that's what I said again just in last
16 statement, that we made a promise that we will bring them videos to show
17 them every time we come back, return home.
18 Q. Okay. I think we have exhausted this topic, sir. We have your
19 evidence today, and we have your evidence from your previous statements,
20 so let me ask you this: The four segments that you are sure you are were
21 present for on July 16th, 1995
22 today, do you recall whether they are on the tape in chronological order
23 or not?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. You don't know.
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. I think you asked me that question yesterday as well, and I have
4 no way of knowing it because it never was in my possession.
5 Q. Well, you were there, though?
6 A. I was there, but, like I said, on many occasion, but I don't know
7 was this -- showed or was he showing it without me or with me, I'm not
9 Q. Maybe I'm confusing you, sir. What I'm asking is, based on your
10 memory of how that day transpired, what you did that day at the VMA, are
11 the segments that I've shown you today in order? We started with the
12 boardroom with General Mladic talking about -- starting with his kidney
13 stones. Then we moved from there to the visit -- I'm skipping
14 General Mladic on the phone. Then we move from there to the hospital
15 wounded. Then we had the meeting with the doctor in the boardroom where
16 he was talking about the scanner. And then we had the footage of the box
17 on the table and the professor thanking you. So those four segments, do
18 you recall if they were -- if they are in the proper order on the tape?
19 A. I don't know. Like I said I wasn't handling -- I don't know. I
20 have no way for the order or not.
21 Q. No, on your memory?
22 A. In my memory, a lot of these things are -- if I didn't see the
23 picture, I wouldn't remember for sure. But this picture made a
24 refreshment of my memory on some of it, but I have no way of knowing it,
25 were they in order or not.
1 Q. You can't remember bottom line?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MS. BOLTON: If we can continue then. I think we were at the
5 23 minute and 30 second mark.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And where are we going to now?
7 MS. BOLTON: This is quite a long segment. This is 48 minute and
8 43 second mark.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MS. BOLTON:
11 Q. Sorry, sir, I've just paused for a second at 26 minutes and 4 --
12 point 4 seconds. Do you recognise the gentleman with the glasses in the
14 A. Myself.
15 Q. Okay. Can you tell me where this meeting took place?
16 A. I believe it's in Crna Rijeka.
17 MS. BOLTON: If we could continue, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to know the gentleman in the floral
19 shirt who was speaking.
20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who the gentleman is who was speaking
22 earlier? I see his shirt is appearing just next to you there?
23 THE WITNESS: Mr. Ranko Rakanovic.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MS. BOLTON:
1 Q. Sorry just before we continue, sir, we had seen footage from July
2 16th, and this date stamp is now indicating July 17th, 1995. To the best
3 of your recollection, is that correct?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MS. BOLTON: If we can continue, please.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MS. BOLTON:
9 Q. Sir, the previous footage we had been watching on the tape was
10 dated July 16th, and you told us that was in Belgrade. And you've told
11 us that this footage dated July 17th was in Crna Rijeka. Can you tell us
12 on what date you travelled from Belgrade
13 A. I believe we came there at the 17th.
14 Q. How did you get from Belgrade
15 A. By cars.
16 Q. We've talked earlier about who was on this trip from Canada
17 all of the Canadians make the trip down to Crna Rijeka, or did some stay
19 A. I think that group, we all came to Crna Rijeka.
20 Q. Okay. And do you recall how many cars you travelled in?
21 A. I think two cars.
22 Q. Okay. And do you know who arranged the transport for you, or do
23 you recall?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. Were there any military personnel with you?
1 A. I don't think so. I don't remember there was any military
2 personnel with us.
3 MS. BOLTON: Could I have Exhibit P2400 displayed, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, what do you want to do with
5 this tape?
6 MS. BOLTON: There is additional footage still to be played,
7 Your Honour. My intention was to seek it to be admitted as an exhibit
8 after all of the footage has been played.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now you want P --
10 MS. BOLTON: P2400. And, Mr. Usher, can you assist
11 Mr. Krayishnik with the pen.
12 THE WITNESS: I have a pen.
13 MS. BOLTON: No, it's an electronic pen.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 MS. BOLTON: I'm just waiting for Exhibit P2400. Can we scroll
16 down a little bit. Thank you. And can you make it a little bit bigger.
18 Q. Are you able to see, sir, or identify for us by circling the
19 location of Han Pijesak.
20 A. Han Pijesak is here.
21 Q. Okay. And how about -- and so for the record you've drawn a red
22 circle next to the words Han Pijesak. How about Crna Rijeka?
23 A. Crna Rijeka would be somewhere in here, in this area.
24 Q. So could you put for that second mark that you've made, can you
25 turn that into a CR?
1 A. CR?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Can I wipe it? I made a mess.
4 MS. BOLTON: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you assist.
5 Q. You are not the first witness that struggled with this pen,
6 Mr. Krayishnik. Yes. Could you put just a dot next to where Crna Rijeka
7 is. Okay. And we've lost the area you originally circled for
8 Han Pijesak. Could you recircle that?
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And what is the distance between these places?
11 A. I would be guessing probably a couple kilometres. Maybe less.
12 Q. All right. The building that you've indicated this footage was
13 taken in you said was at Crna Rijeka. What else -- that was some kind of
14 a boardroom. What other rooms were in that building?
15 A. Well, there was offices, and there was a kitchen and there was a
16 dining room.
17 Q. Whose offices?
18 A. The military offices.
19 Q. Where did General Mladic have his office?
20 A. Somewhere in there. I don't know. I haven't been in his office.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MS. BOLTON: If we could scroll up the page a little bit, please.
24 Q. We can't see any -- can you just describe for us where
25 approximately Belgrade
1 were marked?
2 A. I don't think so. I don't think it's visible on this map.
3 Somewhere over here maybe.
4 Q. Somewhere over where you've made another dot. Could --
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Is that --
7 A. Or maybe up here or somewhere here.
8 Q. Okay. Let me just stop you. Can we erase those two dots. And
9 what I am going to do is we'll get a different map up for you to mark
10 more accurately where -- approximately where Belgrade is.
11 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If I could tender this map into evidence.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: P2400 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
13 given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2795, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MS. BOLTON: And if we could bring up a clean version of P2400,
17 please. Could we zoom out a little bit then. Okay, could you go back
18 one level of zooming. Thank you. And can you scroll down a little bit,
19 please. A little bit further. Just a little bit further. Okay.
20 Q. Would the approximate location of Belgrade be visible on the map
21 as it now appears in front of you?
22 A. This is the route somewhere I think, that's the road that the --
23 comes to -- down to Vlasenica and Han Pijesak.
24 Q. Sorry. I don't think we heard anything you said there, sir. I
25 was just asking you to mark where approximately Belgrade is.
1 A. Like I said, I made a dot up here.
2 Q. Okay. So could you put B there.
3 A. Sorry.
4 Q. Okay. And could you tell me then, if you recall, the route that
5 you took from Belgrade
6 A. Yesterday you had a better map. Like this would be my guessing,
7 but I do remember that we went through Zvornik and Vlasenica to
8 Han Pijesak.
9 MS. BOLTON: It's very hard to read what is written on the map
10 because it's so small now. I have -- I have a suggestion for the
11 Trial Chamber, which is I do -- the map I showed the witness yesterday is
12 the same map, but it's in print form and, therefore, actually easy to
13 read. Wondering if I can show him that map, otherwise we are going to
14 keep, I think, producing maps so I can zoom in.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are going to show him that map, and are we
16 going to see it?
17 MS. BOLTON: Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
19 Mr. Lukic?
20 MS. BOLTON: I can show it to my friend first, if I might.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, he has got to see it, definitely, before you
22 can show it to the witness.
23 MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]
24 MS. BOLTON: Could it be shown to Justice Picard and
25 Justice Moloto. Judges Picard and Judge Moloto. Okay.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe I could suggest one thing that
2 could perhaps assist all the parties, and I'm looking at the clock as
3 well. A moment ago Madam Bolton asked the witness to show Belgrade
4 well. I think it would be useful to avoid confusion, and it would be,
5 indeed, confusion if we put Belgrade
6 him a map where both Belgrade
7 don't want to confuse anyone in the courtroom.
8 MS. BOLTON: I have no difficulty with that, and my friend has no
9 difficulty. So I will not seek to tender this map that he has marked. I
10 see it as time, I think, to adjourn. And my friend and I will perhaps
11 will try to work out -- or locate another map that shows the location of
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you propose for the way forward?
14 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour, I couldn't hear you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you propose by the way forth, that we
16 adjourn now?
17 MS. BOLTON: Yes, is this not the time that we usually adjourn?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, it is the time. We will do it when it is
19 convenient for you to do so.
20 MS. BOLTON: That is what I am suggesting.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 And we stand adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.
23 May I just say to you, Mr. Krayishnik, that you -- now you are on
24 the witness-stand, you may not discuss the case with anybody, not even
25 with Madam Bolton or anybody from the OTP in particular, but nobody else.
1 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll take it you come back
3 tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom. Court adjourned.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of
7 November 2009, at 9.00 a.m.