Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9915

 1                           Tuesday, 23 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             May we have the appearances for today, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon, Mark Harmon,

15     and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

17             And for the Defence.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

19     morning to all the parties to the proceedings.  The Defence of Mr.

20     Perisic are represented by Novak Lukic, Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, and

21     Boris Zorko.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  For the record, we're still

23     sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, in Judge Picard's absence.

24             Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The Defence wishes to call its first

Page 9916

 1     witness, Mr. Miodrag Simic.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] May the witness please

 4     make the declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated sir.

 8             Good morning to you, sir, and ...

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

10     morning to everybody else present.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, sir.

12             Mr. Lukic.

13                           WITNESS:  MIODRAG SIMIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  Let me first ask you to

17     state your name for the transcript, please.

18        A.   My name is Miodrag Simic, colonel general of the Army of

19     Yugoslavia, retired since the 1st of January, 2002.  My last position was

20     that of the commander of the 1st Army of the -- for army of the army of

21     Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   Thank you.  You have already given an answer that I wanted to

23     elicit among the first things.  It has to do with your career.

24             I have already mentioned to you something -- with which you

25     already have experience because you have already testified before this

Page 9917

 1     Tribunal.

 2             In which case did you testify, sir?

 3        A.   I testified before this Tribunal in the Ojdanic case as a Defence

 4     witness.  As far as I remember, it was in September 2007.

 5        Q.   Thank.  While we were preparing for this examination you told me

 6     that even then that you knew once you are asked a question in a language

 7     you understand, you're supposed to wait for a short while, and the same

 8     applies to me, to enable the interpreters to interpret everything for the

 9     transcript.  You started off at a very good pace.  Just please bear in

10     mind to pause a -- for a short while before you answer my question, and

11     you also have the transcript on the screen in front of you.

12             I will try to go through the most important elements of your

13     career briefly.  I hope the Prosecution won't object to my leading the

14     witness in these matters to save time.

15             You graduated from the Military Academy in 1965, didn't you?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In 1975, you were sent to the Command Staff Academy of the

18     army --

19        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't receive a translation.

20        Q.   In 1975, you were sent for training to the Command Staff Academy.

21        A.   I completed my training there in the period from 1976 through

22     1978.

23        Q.   Before that, during that time you were serving with army units

24     in -- in the 2nd Army, at several places in the area of the Pristina

25     garrison; is that correct?

Page 9918

 1        A.   I arrived there with a rank of lieutenant in 1970.  And I left as

 2     lieutenant-colonel in 1984.

 3        Q.   Then you were transferred to Belgrade and you were appointed to

 4     the position of inspector of combat readiness in the chief inspectorate

 5     of national defence?

 6        A.   Yes, of the armed forces of the SFRY.

 7        Q.   All right.  I wasn't as precise as you expected me to be but I

 8     will improve.

 9             From 1986 you started working in the General Staff of the JNA

10     first, which later became the army of Yugoslavia; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   At first, you were an administrative officer in the 1st

13     department for planning and the use of the armed forces; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In 1988, you were promoted to the rank of colonel; is that

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   In 1990, you became head of the department for combat readiness

19     and for the planning of combat readiness in the same organisational unit

20     as the General Staff -- of the General Staff in the JNA; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Then you became chief of the department for planning and combat

23     readiness in the 1st Administration of the -- sorry, first department of

24     the 1st Administration; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9919

 1        Q.   Later you became chief of department for doctrine and

 2     development; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And then in 1993, you became chief of department for planning and

 5     combat readiness, and, at the same time, deputy of the administration for

 6     operations of the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  But I must add, that that -- that year I also became head

 9     of the 1st Administration in November.

10        Q.   The information that I had was that this was in 1994.  So that in

11     December you became chief of the 1st Administration with the rank of

12     Major-General.

13        A.   In December 2003 [as interpreted], I was appointed to that

14     position based on the order of the Chief of General Staff.  I had --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... witness say

16     December 2003.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated].

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1993.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   So when were you promoted, Major-General?

22        A.   You cannot be promoted to the rank of general without a decree.

23     In March, roughly, the President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

24     issued a decree appointing me chief of the administration.

25        Q.   You remained in that position until June 1996, when you were

Page 9920

 1     appointed Chief of Staff of the 3rd Army of the army of Yugoslavia;

 2     correct?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... does the

 4     decree facilitate your promotion to a general or does it appoint you as

 5     chief of administration?  We got two separate, different answers.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   I suppose you understood the Judge Moloto's question.

 8        A.   Your Honours, for a colonel to be promote to the rank of general,

 9     there must be an establishment position, a vacant establishment position

10     and there must be a decree to that effect because generals are appointed

11     by the President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, by his decree.

12             The Chief of General Staff issued an order to appoint me to my

13     new position in November 1993.  If I had remained in that status, I

14     wouldn't have been able to get the rank of general.  I don't know --

15     general.  I don't know whether I was clear enough.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated].

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   In 1999, you were appointed to the position of councillor of the

19     Ministry of Defence as lieutenant-general; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   In the same year, you became the assistant Chief of Staff of the

22     army of Yugoslavia for the army, the land forces, with a rank of

23     lieutenant -- sorry, colonel general.

24        A.   The same year, I became assistant Chief of Staff of the

25     Supreme Command for the land forces with the rank of lieutenant-general.

Page 9921

 1     But the establishment position is such that this is a position for a

 2     colonel general.

 3        Q.   Now, we will later analyse the notion of the staff of the

 4     Supreme Command.  But was that during the period of the military

 5     intervention in Kosovo?  Is that how we should understand the -- the

 6     phrase "staff of the Supreme Command"?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   But this is really still the General Staff but due to the changed

 9     circumstances, the term changed.

10        A.   It is defined by our rules and regulations that the

11     General Staff, at times of imminent threat of war, or, in a state of war,

12     is transformed from General Staff to the staff of the supreme commander.

13        Q.   And we are now moving closer to the end.  In 2000, you became

14     assistant Chief of General Staff for the army of Yugoslavia for

15     operational and staff matters -- sorry, in the section for operational

16     staff matters; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And finally, what you said at the very beginning, in 2001, you

19     became commander of the 1st Army of the army of Yugoslavia.  And you were

20     discharged from service on the 31st of December, 2001, when you retired.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Simic, let us first speak about the General Staff

23     in general terms.  But let us first try to explain what the General Staff

24     was like in the SFRY and later.

25             Can you tell me in a few words, since at that time, too, you were

Page 9922

 1     in the General Staff of the JNA, how the structure was and what the

 2     hierarchy was there.

 3        A.   While the JNA was in existence, the General Staff of the JNA was

 4     one of the establishment units of the Federal Secretariat of People's

 5     Defence.

 6        Q.   All right.  What was the SSNO at the time?

 7        A.   The Federal Secretariat of People's Defence, SSNO, with regard to

 8     the chain of command was directly linked with the Presidency of the

 9     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  That means that the General Staff was

10     not in the chain of command immediately after the Presidency of the

11     state, but it was immediately below the minister of -- of defence.

12        Q.   But then the minister of defence was called federal secretary of

13     People's Defence?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.  And the institution was called Federal

15     Secretariat of People's Defence.

16        Q.   Who was the federal secretary and who was the Chief of General

17     Staff then?

18        A.   Veljko Kadijevic, colonel general, was the federal secretary; and

19     Blagoje Adzic, also colonel general, was Chief of General Staff.

20        Q.   What changed in the structure when the Federal Republic of

21     Yugoslavia was established and when new constitution and regulations were

22     passed and regulated military structures?

23        A.   When the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was established and when

24     it passed its constitution in terms of the command of the army, the chain

25     of command was substantially changed.  The Chief of the General Staff was

Page 9923

 1     no longer subordinated to the federal minister of defence but, rather, it

 2     was subordinated to the Supreme Defence Council as a collective body in

 3     command of the army of Yugoslavia.

 4        Q.   Just a moment.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Was there a body which was a new body with regard to the Federal

 8     Secretariat of National Defence?

 9        A.   I wanted to be brief.  However, when the constitution was passed,

10     that had an impact on the chain of command.  And between the secretariat

11     and the minister of defence, there was no longer the relationship of

12     subordination but, rather, mutual cooperation.

13        Q.   Who was the minister of defence subordinated to?  In what

14     structure was that body?

15        A.   The Ministry of Defence was one of the ministry's of the

16     government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   Do you remember who the minister of defence was when the ministry

18     was established at --

19        A.   At that time, it was the late Pavle Bulatovic.

20        Q.   We'll come back to the relationship between the ministry and the

21     General Staff.  But now I would like us to look at the Law on Army of

22     Yugoslavia and particularly some articles that we already saw in the

23     courtroom.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But now I'd like to call up P197,

25     page 1 in B/C/S and page 2 in the English version.

Page 9924

 1        Q.   General, could you please look at the articles.  If you can't see

 2     the picture on the screen, we have a hard copy of everything.

 3        A.   I would prefer a hard copy.  The screen is too far.  However if I

 4     invest some effort, I will --

 5        Q.   This seems to be the only document that we don't have a hard copy

 6     of but we'll try and enlarge the letters.  Please look at Article 3.  I'm

 7     sure that you know it by heart.  General, you know everything that we're

 8     going to discuss, almost by heart.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... assist the

10     witness, try to get the screen closer to him.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't have the adequate page.

12     It -- it is probably adequate but can we scroll down the B/C/S page, and

13     blow up the bottom right-hand side corner, yes, Article 3, this is what I

14     wanted.  And Article 4 as well.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

16             MR. SAXON:  If I can assist, Your Honour.  I believe I have a

17     copy in B/C/S, if that would assist the witness, Mr. Lukic.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] With pleasure, and I thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Simic, I would welcome your comment on Article 3 of the

23     Law on the Army of Yugoslavia.  Let's not read it.  We have it on the

24     screen.  But can you please tell us briefly what the article is about.

25        A.   This Article of the Law on the Army of Yugoslavia deals with the

Page 9925

 1     command in the army and it says that it shall be based on the basic and

 2     elementary principle which is the principle of unity of command when it

 3     comes to the use of the forces and materiel.

 4        Q.   It is emphasised that this refers to the use of the forces and

 5     materiel; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   We'll come back to that as well.

 8             Let's move on to Article 4 which is again very precise and speaks

 9     about the position and role of the President of the Republic; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Given the previous article that we just mentioned, Article 3,

13     what was the position of the supreme commander, in terms of the use of

14     the forces and materiel?

15        A.   The President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as the

16     President of the Supreme Council of Defence had an exclusive and

17     inalienable right to command and use the Army of Yugoslavia in peacetime

18     and in wartime.

19        Q.   And then, further on, it -- it is stipulated what the President

20     of the Republic does when it comes to the command of the army.  I'm not

21     going to dwell upon that, but we can see that the term "command" is

22     clearly emphasised when it comes to the use of the forces and materiel.

23             And now let's move on to Article 5.  I apologise.  Please read

24     it, or, actually, I would kindly ask you to comment upon each and every

25     paragraph in this article, because it is very important.

Page 9926

 1        A.   Article 5 reads:

 2             "The General Staff of the army shall be the highest professional

 3     and staff organ for the preparation and use of the army in times of peace

 4     and war.

 5             "The Chief of the General Staff, in accordance with the basic

 6     principles of organisation, development and establishment of the army and

 7     the documents issued by the President of the Republic, shall do the

 8     following.

 9             "Firstly, determine the organisation, plan of development, and

10     establishment of the commands, units, and institutions of the army."

11        Q.   Let's stop here for a moment.  Let's pause.

12             Could you please comment on what you have just read, the

13     definition of the General Staff, and the main form of the functioning of

14     the Chief of the General Staff.

15        A.   You asked me about my position as the assistant Chief of Staff of

16     the Supreme Command for land army.  This means that the General Staff was

17     the highest staff organ for the preparation and use of the army in times

18     of peace and war.  The Chief of the General Staff was the top person in

19     the army and the army organisation, and as such, it did not have the

20     right to use the -- the army without prior consent or, rather, decision

21     of the supreme commander.

22        Q.   In simpler terms, did the general -- the Chief of the

23     General Staff have the right to issue an order or command the use of the

24     forces?

25        A.   I have to provide a clarification at this point.  If, when we say

Page 9927

 1     the use of a unit, if we imply manoeuvre training, alerts, combat,

 2     mobilisation, and verification, then the answer would be yes, because

 3     these are the elements that constitute preparations for combat.  When it

 4     comes to the use of the force for which it -- it was prepared, it doesn't

 5     have the right because this is within the exclusive purview of the

 6     supreme commander.

 7        Q.   Bear with me, I have to check the transcript.

 8             Could you please clarify the following.  In the sentence,

 9     page 12, when you said alert for combat, could you please clarify that --

10     could you please clarify this for the transcript.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... doesn't say

12     alert for combat.  It says manoeuvre, training, alerts, combat, mobilise,

13     and verification.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes, that's correct.  Then

15     everything is clear.

16        Q.   Your explanation was good, General.  We have no problem there.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is not clear to me.  I thought you were going

18     to get clarity.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The answer by the General is that all those things

21     that are mentioned there are things that are ordered by the Chief of the

22     General Staff.  Further down, he then says:

23             "Because these are the elements that constitute preparations for

24     combat.  When it comes to the use of the force for which it was prepared,

25     it doesn't have the right because this is within the exclusive purview of

Page 9928

 1     the supreme commander."

 2             Now, he has said, amongst others, combat can be ordered by the

 3     Chief of the Staff.  Now he is saying combat can be ordered by the

 4     supreme commander only.  Because all the other things are in preparation

 5     for combat.

 6             So I -- so I'm not clear.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   General, there has been a misunderstanding due to interpretation.

 9     Can you provide an additional explanation?

10        A.   Your Honours, since the Chief of the General Staff was tasked --

11     or, rather, responsible for the preparation of the forces of Yugoslavia,

12     for its use in the course of those preparations, when it come to the

13     contents of the preparations, this means training, education, the

14     verification of combat readiness, the verification of mobilisation

15     readiness, and other such activities.  However, this excludes the

16     engagement in war in -- or in combat.  Such a war use could be ordered

17     only by the President of the Republic.

18             Let me provide an additional clarification.  The Chief of the

19     General Staff brought the forces up to the level or standard for use.

20     The act of use, however, is something that is within the purview of the

21     President of the Republic, and the President of the Republic had the

22     exclusive right to issue an order for engagement.

23             I don't know if I made myself clear.

24        Q.   Let's move on to Article 6 immediately and things will become

25     even clearer.

Page 9929

 1             Can you please analyse the first two articles -- first two

 2     paragraphs of Article 6.  Paragraph (1) and paragraph (2).

 3        A.   Article 6 elaborates what I've already stated, and that is that

 4     the Chief of General Staff, in keeping with his authorities in the

 5     discharge of his duties, shall carry out his duties by issuing rules,

 6     orders, commands, instructions, and other documents.

 7             When it comes to the commanding officers of units and

 8     institutions of the General Staff and lower ranking officers, commanders

 9     of the forces corps, divisions and brigades, shall command their units in

10     accordance with the law and the command documents issued by their

11     superior officers.

12             And for the Chief of General Staff, the superior officer is the

13     supreme commander.

14        Q.   Let me just make a correction in the transcript.  I can see that

15     you were reading --

16        A.   No, I wasn't.

17        Q.   There's no reference to General Staff in paragraph 2 only units

18     and institutions.  The command of units and institutions.

19        A.   Mr. Lukic, you asked me to comment upon the article, not to read

20     it, and I respected quite consistently what you asked me to do.

21        Q.   Very well.  And when it comes to the General Staff, who is its

22     commander?

23        A.   The commander of the General Staff is the President of the

24     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in accordance with the decisions of the

25     Supreme Defence Council, in accordance with the constitution, the Law on

Page 9930

 1     the Army of Yugoslavia, the Law on the Defence.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In the military doctrine of the Army of Yugoslavia,

 3     would you say that the Law on the Army or any other regulation provides

 4     for the term "daily operative command"?

 5        A.   Our military [indiscernible] does not recognise in its work the

 6     term "operative daily command."  We have command at strategic, operative,

 7     and tactical levels.

 8             As for the so-called daily operative command, in our vocabulary,

 9     that would be the method of work of the Chief of General Staff or unit

10     commands.

11        Q.   And let me try and conclude.  General Perisic, as the Chief of

12     General Staff, was he authorised to command and use the units of the Army

13     of Yugoslavia?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Could he transfer any of the duties that he himself did not have

16     onto somebody else?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Let me be very precise, because of the English interpretation.

19     My question, on page 16, line 3, I'll repeat the question.

20             I know that this is a problem for the interpreters, all the

21     terms, and I will try and be very precise but I repeat my question for

22     the clarity of understanding.

23             General Perisic, as the Chief of General Staff of the Army of

24     Yugoslavia, was he authorised to order the use of the units of the Army

25     of Yugoslavia?

Page 9931

 1        A.   The legislator was clear when he said, in the law, the commander

 2     of the Army of Yugoslavia was the President of the Federal Republic of

 3     Yugoslavia, in accordance with the decisions of the Supreme Defence

 4     Council.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I will no longer need this document at the moment,

 6     but I believe that we will be able to come back to it and illustrate.

 7             I will now move on to the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia

 8     and its structure and authorities, but I would like to do it by showing

 9     the witness a number of documents.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, is that answer, at line 17, an answer

11     to your question?

12             MR. LUKIC:  Just a second.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Who was the supreme commander, not everything

14     may have been recorded in the transcript.  The supreme commander of the

15     VJ.

16        A.   The legislator didn't explicitly stipulate in any provision of

17     the constitution or the law that it is the -- or, rather, who is the

18     supreme commander.  But it says that the President of the Republic, in

19     accordance with the decisions taken by the Supreme Defence Council,

20     commands the army, and since there is no part of the chain of command

21     above him, it follows clearly that the one at the top is the

22     supreme commander.  That's how we interpreted it in 1999.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm finding it difficult to follow this.  I am --

24     I asked you if ... at page 16, line 17 -- or let me go to line 14.  You

25     asked:  "General Perisic, as the Chief of the General Staff of the Army

Page 9932

 1     of Yugoslavia, was he authorised to order the use of the units of the

 2     Army of Yugoslavia?"

 3             The answer is:  "The legislator was clear when he said, in law,

 4     commander in accordance with the decisions of the Supreme Council" -- I

 5     don't know what --

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I see that this is wrong.  It's

 7     wrong in English.  Let me try to be as precise as possible.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It would be very helpful.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I will have to return to the question, General.  I'll try to

11     phrase it as simply as possible and I expect your answer to be such.

12             My question was:  Did General Perisic, as Chief of Staff of the

13     VJ, have the authority to order the use of the units of the Army of

14     Yugoslavia?

15        A.   Not under the law.

16        Q.   Who has the legal power to order the use of units?

17        A.   The legislator vested the exclusive -- that exclusive right in

18     the President of the Republic in his capacity of president of the Supreme

19     Defence Council.  That is his inalienable right.

20        Q.   Is that in keeping with the principle of the unity of command

21     that we mentioned with regard to Article 3?

22        A.   Yes.  That is the very thing.  It may seem confusing that now the

23     Supreme Defence Council comes into play as a collective organ, but, on

24     the other hand, only one person is the commander.

25             The Supreme Defence Council, as a collective organ, takes

Page 9933

 1     decisions jointly through discussion, and in keeping with the decision

 2     taking -- taken, and respecting the principle of unity of command, which

 3     says that only one person can be in command, that person is the President

 4     of the Republic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Is it clear now, Your Honours?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] I just wanted that

 7     question to be answered, that's all.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   I will now move on to another topic, and that is the functioning

10     of the General Staff of the VJ.

11             My first question to you, General is:  How were the structure and

12     the purview of the General Staff of the armed forces of the Army of

13     Yugoslavia regulated?

14        A.   The structure and purview of the organisational bodies of the

15     General Staff of the VJ was laid out by the Chief of General Staff, by

16     his order about the tasks of the organisational units of the

17     General Staff.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see pages 1 and 2 of

19     document -- of 65 ter document 01114D.

20             Your Honours, while we're waiting for the document, let me say

21     that this is a rather lengthy document of some 30-odd pages.  I didn't

22     wish to tender the entire document initially, but now I understand that

23     it is very important also with regard to the witnesses to come yet.  And

24     we don't have a complete English translation at the time being, but it

25     will be completed soon.

Page 9934

 1             What we will deal with now is a part which has been assigned

 2     another 65 ter number.

 3        Q.   Let us now take look at the screen.  I see that the pages don't

 4     match.  And the page that we have in B/C/S, is this the order about the

 5     purview that you mentioned?

 6        A.   Yes, the first page.  But if you allow me, Mr. Lukic, let me ask

 7     to you move this closer to me, because I cannot get up all the time to

 8     read from the screen.

 9        Q.   Yes, I prepared hard copies for you of all documents except for

10     that one that we discussed earlier.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Except, Mr. Lukic, that what we see on B/C/S side

12     of the screen looks like the cover page.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And on the English side, we don't see the cover

15     page.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that.  I also wanted

17     to see the cover page of the English version.  I would like to see

18     document 65 ter D00376D, both the B/C/S and English versions, which is

19     what the witness has in front of him, only under a different number.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What -- if you're now calling for --

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I give up the previously called

22     document for the time being.  I apologise to everybody.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] ... not going to tender

24     it.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, not yet.  Page 2.

Page 9935

 1        Q.   General, what we can see now --

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but could we go back to the

 3     previous page, please.

 4        Q.   We see on the screen the order on the purview of organisational

 5     units of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.  Isn't that so?

 6     And who signed this document?

 7        A.   It was signed by the Chief of Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia,

 8     Colonel General Momcilo Perisic.

 9        Q.   Can we -- it says below that this order shall take effect on the

10     day it is issued.  Or, rather:  "On the day of this order taking effect,

11     the rule book, et cetera, shall cease to be in force."

12             When was this order issued?

13        A.   It was issued on --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the date.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters would like the date to be

16     repeated, please.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Could you please repeat the date.

19        A.   The order was registered in the log-book of the

20     3rd Administration of the sector for replenishment, mobilisation and

21     systemic affairs on 25th of August, 1994.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And where is that date on this document?  Thank

23     you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can you see now, Your Honour?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  After the scrolling.

Page 9936

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Let us now move to page 2, general provisions.

 3             Can you say a few general comments about this document and then

 4     we will analyse it.  What is this thing we're discussing?

 5        A.   Based on his legal authorities, the Chief of General Staff issued

 6     an order, by which he lays out in detail the rights, duties, and

 7     authority of the leading persons in the General Staff and the -- their

 8     organisational units.

 9        Q.   The first chapter, general provisions, contains Article 2 and

10     this is basically the -- a -- a copy of the legal provision that we saw

11     in the law, isn't it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Could you please comment Article 5 of the general provisions.  To

14     who does this article refer and what does it mean?

15        A.   Article 5 literally reads:

16             "Command, in terms of this order, represents the function of

17     integrated control of subordinate commands, units and institutions."

18             That means that the Chief of General Staff can command his

19     subordinates, give them duties and tasks, request reports and information

20     about the carrying out of the duties assigned to them.

21        Q.   And we will see later for each section who has command authority

22     over who; isn't that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Please comment on Article 6.

25        A.   Article 6 of the general provisions?

Page 9937

 1        Q.   Yes, yes, the general provisions.

 2        A.   Article 6 of the general provisions reads:

 3             "Organisational units may not transfer affairs from their

 4     competence to VJ commands, units and institutions, unless authorised to

 5     do so."

 6             If you -- if the Chamber will allow me, I am going to clarify.

 7             Any obligation of mine that stems from this order cannot be

 8     transferred or delegated by me to anybody else.  That is the

 9     untransferable right.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The following chapter reads:  The competences of the

11     officers of organisational units of the General Staff of the VJ.

12             Several positions or functions are mentioned here.  Why isn't the

13     Chief of Staff one of these?  Instead it starts with the Deputy Chief of

14     Staff?

15        A.   This order is issued by the Chief of General Staff, and whatever

16     he orders refers to his subordinates but not to himself.  His duties are

17     defined by a higher-ranking legal act.

18        Q.   All right.  We will return to this document.  But to facilitate

19     the understanding of the remainder of the document, I would like to us

20     take a look at some schematics.  I believe that will be easier.

21             What types of organisational units are there in the

22     General Staff?

23        A.   The General Staff of the VJ, organisationally and in

24     establishment terms, is structured on -- based on sections and

25     administrations.  So it has sections, departments, and other units.  So

Page 9938

 1     you have -- when you asked me about my duties in the General Staff, I

 2     started with that of administrative officer.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will later tender this document,

 4     but I would like to see now 65 ter document 00804.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At what stage do you plan to tender this one?

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A bit later today, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All right.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I asked for a Defence document, a

 9     Defence document, 65 ter 0804D.  To avoid any confusion, we marked all of

10     our documents, all of our 65 ter documents with a D at the end.

11        Q.   While this is being done, did the General Staff, in the

12     organisational terms, undergo changes in the structure from the moment

13     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was created and its army?

14        A.   Yes.  From 1992, when the ministry was separated from the

15     General Staff, in the course of the next several years, there was an

16     ongoing process to build up the organisation and establishment structure.

17     In the process of separation, many things in the system of command and

18     control of the organisation were seen as being controversial.  So

19     gradually, as the situation allowed, we improved and built up on the

20     organisation.  That's why you will come across a lot of schematics

21     starting with the sector --

22        Q.   We'll come to that, but let's look at the illustration first.

23     You have a Serbian version in front of you.  This is a schematic dated 15

24     June 1993.  Do you have that in front of you on the screen?

25        A.   No.

Page 9939

 1        Q.   Just a moment --

 2        A.   And could this please be --

 3        Q.   Hold on just for a moment.  We'll give you a hard copy.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have four schematics for the

 5     witness, and we would kindly ask the Trial Chamber to follow on the

 6     screen.

 7             Could you please put the English version on the screen for the

 8     Trial Chamber and everybody else in the courtroom, and the witness will

 9     be provided with hard copies in B/C/S.

10             Let's just wait a moment for the English version to be brought

11     back onto the screen for everybody in the courtroom.  I believe that this

12     version is too small for the Trial Chamber to be able to follow.  You

13     have to blow it up a little.

14             Although General Perisic does not have the schematic in front of

15     him, I'm sure he know what is we're talking about.

16        Q.   General, this schematic dates back from -- back to June 1993.

17     Could you please tell us in a few words, in general terms, what the

18     composition of the General Staff was.  You don't have to describe

19     everything in detail.  Just describe the structure.

20        A.   The Chief of General Staff, at that time, was linked to the

21     sector for operations and staff; sector for organisation, recruitment and

22     information; the logistics sector; personnel administration; information

23     and moral guidance department; security administration; intelligence

24     administration; and VJ inspection.  All these were directly linked to

25     him, as well as the department for liaising with international military

Page 9940

 1     representatives and his own office.  So this is the most immediate link

 2     in the chain of command for the General Staff.

 3        Q.   And for the Trial Chamber to be able to follow the first next

 4     major change that happened, what was the problem within the schematic and

 5     what was changed subsequently?  What elements or -- maybe I should put on

 6     the screen the next schematic?

 7        A.   No, I have them in hard copy.  With the permission of the

 8     Trial Chamber, I would say that here you can see that in the sector for

 9     operations and staff affairs there are branch administrations which are

10     responsible for branches in depth.  For example, the administration for

11     land army accounts for 80 per cent of the Army of Yugoslavia; the air

12     force administration accounts for 15 per cent; and navy accounts for

13     8 per cent.  And thus the leading personnel --

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness is now

15     dealing with the first column on the left-hand side.  In the sector for

16     operations, reference is made to land forces administration, air force

17     administration, and navy operation -- administrations.  [In English] In

18     that period.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] When you're talking about the different branches

20     or services, you mean three services in the military, or different

21     branches?

22        A.   I am referring to them, meaning that the Army of Yugoslavia was

23     composed three different branches: Land forces, air force, and navy.

24        Q.   And at that time --

25        A.   And now -- and when we took over the organisation, which meant

Page 9941

 1     that we were separated from the General Staff, such administrations which

 2     were actually sectors in the ministry, we transformed them into

 3     administrations which aggravated --

 4        Q.   Let me interrupt you in order to avoid confusion and also we have

 5     the interpretation.

 6             You mean in the period when there was the Secretariat for

 7     National Defence, those were sectors within the National Secretariat, and

 8     then in this schematic you transformed them into administrations within

 9     the framework of the first sector?  Just for the interpretation.

10        A.   If you allow me, bearing in mind the aggravating circumstance you

11     will see in the following schematic that, from the sector for operations

12     and staff affairs, we brought those administrations up to a higher level

13     and linked them up directly to the Chief of the General Staff.

14        Q.   Just a moment.  Could we please --

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would firstly like to tender this

16     document into evidence before I do anything else.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would object to the admission of this

20     document at this time.  We know nothing about the source of this

21     document.  We know nothing about who made it.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Maybe the witness can help us and tell us whether he knows who

25     drafted the schematics that we are currently discussing?

Page 9942

 1        A.   These schematics were prepared by the General Staff within the

 2     framework of the project to transform the General Staff of the Army of

 3     Yugoslavia, and they were drafted by the entire General Staff under the

 4     leadership of the chief of the sector for operations and staff affairs.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And let me add to that, Your Honours,

 6     in the document of the order, there is a schematic that accompanies the

 7     1994 order.  I intentionally provided a bigger expert [as interpreted]

 8     for us to peruse but let me repeat that one part of the entire order is

 9     also the schematic.

10             MR. SAXON:  I'm not sure which document Mr. Lukic is referring to

11     now.  We're dealing with 803D; isn't that correct?  Or 804?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  804D [Microphone not activated].

13             MR. SAXON:  Yeah.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  In any event, I believe

15     that the witness corroborated the authenticity of the document and that

16     the document can therefore be tendered into evidence.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The only problem is the witness says it was drawn

18     by the General Staff.  You know, he doesn't tell us who in the Staff drew

19     this document.  He says -- you know, if you read at page 27, line 10:

20             "The schematics were prepared by the General Staff within the

21     framework of the project to transform the General Staff of the Army of

22     Yugoslavia, and they were drafted by the entire General Staff under the

23     leadership of the chief of the sector for operations and staff affairs."

24             I'm not quite sure whether he tells us who drafted this document.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I assume, Your Honours, that we

Page 9943

 1     should not maintain the standard of knowing exactly who the author of

 2     each and every document is.

 3             As for the authenticity of this document, we have a competent

 4     witness who confirms that this was drafted by a whole body, and I believe

 5     that when it comes to the authenticity that this is relevant and enough

 6     for a document to be admitted.  We have had a lot of Prosecution

 7     documents admitted without any of the witnesses being able to ascertain

 8     which person exactly drafted the document but were able to confirm its

 9     authenticity.

10             You are here to be the judge of the witness's capability to

11     confirm the authenticity of the document.  He told us that the document

12     was drafted by the entire General Staff.  Maybe Mr. Simic has something

13     to add.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave ...

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Simic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way it was translated to me was

17     that the entire General Staff became the sector for operations and staff

18     affairs.  I didn't say that.  I state at this point that within the

19     process of transformation, the coordinating role, the main role was

20     assumed by the sector for operations and staff affairs.  However, that

21     sector was not omnipotent.  In coordination with other sectors it came by

22     and arrived at optimum solutions for particular schematics that we see

23     here at the moment in front of us.  And these schematics were

24     subsequently changed and they assumed their final shape in the year 1994,

25     pursuant to an order of the Chief of the General Staff about the

Page 9944

 1     authorities and competencies of the organisational units of the

 2     General Staff.  The schematics show a certain evolution in the

 3     organisational buildup and improvement of the General Staff structure.

 4             I don't know whether I have managed to make myself clear.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any comments from the Prosecution?

 6             MR. SAXON:  Nothing further, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, are you able to tell us, in brief, what

 8     the witness was saying here?  I'm not quite sure I understand.

 9             We're dealing here with --

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I believe that the witness

11     has tried to explain a factual position and he has tried to explain why

12     the structure of the General Staff had to be changed.  But I adhere to my

13     original comment.  The witness said that the schematic was drafted by the

14     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia which confirms the authenticity

15     of the document.  We can't go on and try to ascertain who the individual

16     author of each and every document is.  I believe that the authenticity of

17     the document has been corroborated sufficiently for the document to be

18     admitted.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

20     please be given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  The document shall be

22     assigned Exhibit D195.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before the break, I would like to go

25     over the second schematic, just briefly, to maintain the line of

Page 9945

 1     questioning.  Or maybe -- or perhaps we should have the break first, Your

 2     Honours, and then come back to the second schematic.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... to come back

 4     to this one, because I don't know what it is telling me.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... quarter to

 7     11.00.

 8             Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you wanted to clarify

13     something about the schematic additionally, or maybe I can pass on to the

14     next one and then I believe what the witness said will become fully

15     clear, because the witness was already explaining things that can be

16     found in the following schematic, so either way.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Carry on, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, we were looking at the schematic from

20     June 1993, and you said that the branches of the military were -- were in

21     the first sector.

22             Now, let's, please, see the 65 ter Defence document, 00805D.

23             And please comment briefly on the changes as compared to the

24     previous state which -- which refers to June 1993.  Let me just check

25     whether we have the English version of the document for the Trial Chamber

Page 9946

 1     to be able to follow.

 2             You have in front of you this document from December 1993.  And

 3     what kind of changes were made to the organisational structure of the

 4     General Staff?

 5        A.   In the improvement of the organisational structure, which we call

 6     transformation, the greatest change occurred in the sector for

 7     operational and staff affairs.  Earlier, this sector contained the land

 8     forces administration.  But now, as we can see from the schematic,

 9     this -- this is an sector for the land forces, which has its service

10     administrations.  Likewise, in the earlier schematic, we had the air

11     force and anti-aircraft defence administration within this sector, but

12     now, after the changes, we can see there is a sector for the air force

13     and anti-aircraft defence, which sector has its administrations --

14     administrations.

15             Furthermore, we can observe the same in the navy administration.

16     In the more recent version, it has grown into a sector for the navy.

17     These are the most significant changes that affected the organisation of

18     the General Staff.

19        Q.   Let me ask you something that matters to me for the Defence.

20             We don't need to call up the previous schematic but we can see

21     the intelligence administration as an independent administration directly

22     subordinate to the chief.  What happened to the intelligence

23     administration in this transformation as we see in this schematic from

24     December 1993?

25        A.   The intelligence administration, in the previous schematic, which

Page 9947

 1     reported to the Federal Secretariat of People's Defence, was autonomous

 2     or independent.  We saw that the intelligence administration must be

 3     integrated with the operations officer, and it became -- it has become

 4     part of the sector for operational and staff affairs.  It become an

 5     organisational unit of that sector.

 6        Q.   How -- what is it called here in this schematic?

 7        A.   It's called the 2nd Administration.

 8        Q.   The intelligence administration was also called -- often called

 9     the 2nd Administration, right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   We also see here some slight changes.  Among others, we can see

12     the position of Deputy Chief of General Staff.  How come?

13        A.   Due to the complexity of affairs and due to the large workload on

14     the General Staff at the time, the solution was introduced to establish

15     the position of Deputy Chief of General Staff as a person to coordinate

16     some organisational units and, thus, he will be able to present to the

17     Chief of General Staff semi-finalised products, to call them that,

18     without -- so that the Chief of General Staff doesn't have to deal with

19     everything from the very beginning.

20        Q.   There's another organisational unit important to us here.  The

21     previous department for liaison with international military

22     representatives here becomes the administration for liaison with

23     international military representatives.

24             I apologise for putting leading questions.

25        A.   Yes, can you see that clearly from the schematic.  I didn't

Page 9948

 1     consider it necessary to mention it.  This department became an

 2     administration because the Chief of General Staff assigned more a complex

 3     task to that organisational unit.  Otherwise, the tasks remained the

 4     same.

 5        Q.   Now I will ask you something that I didn't ask you in the

 6     proofing, so if you don't remember, don't reply.

 7             Do you know who headed the individual sectors or administration

 8     in 1993 and the two years to follow?  Do you remember who was the head of

 9     this administration for liaison with international military

10     representatives?

11        A.   I believe it was Colonel Dragan Vuksic, as far as I remember.

12        Q.   Yes, that's what I think too.  Who was the head of the your

13     sector for operational staff affairs?

14        A.   If you're asking me only about the period when General Perisic

15     was there, there were General Polic, General Blagoje Kovacevic,

16     General Martinovic, and I subsequently left the General Staff.

17        Q.   And who was the head of the security administration?

18        A.   Throughout that period, Colonel Aleksandar Dimitrijevic was the

19     head of that unit.

20        Q.   Who you happen to know who the head of the logistics sector was?

21        A.   It was General Djukic in the earliest period.  After Djukic there

22     was Milovanovic, then Sljivic.

23        Q.   But Djukic was before the transformation?

24        A.   Yes, in the earliest period.  That's why I called it that.

25     Before the transformation, yes.

Page 9949

 1        Q.   Do you happen to know who was the head of the office of the Chief

 2     of General Staff?

 3        A.   The office of the Chief of General Staff was headed by several

 4     persons in sequence.  There were Colonel Bojovic, Colonel Zivanovic, who

 5     later became General.  And there was another, but I can't remember his

 6     name now.

 7        Q.   Sinisa --

 8        A.   For a while, General Milovanovic and Sinisa Borovic for the most

 9     time and there was one more, but I can't remember his name.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this schematic into

12     evidence, Your Honours.

13             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I will simply make the same objection

14     that I made to the last document, as we have no evidence as to who

15     actually produced this.  Just for the record, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can only repeat my previous reply.

18             The witness knows that this document originates from the General

19     Staff and I believe that sufficiently establishes the authenticity.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't testify, Mr. Lukic.  You haven't asked that

21     question to this witness [Overlapping speakers] ...

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I didn't ask.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... you can't just say I

24     will repeat what I said earlier.  You have got to get this witness to

25     authenticate this document.

Page 9950

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness, do you know the origin of the schematic?

 5        A.   Your Honours, I feel the need to additionally clarify the

 6     methodology of the production of this document, with your leave.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead, sir.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It cannot be said that the -- one

 9     person is the author of the entire document.  Based on the order issued

10     by the 1st Administration of the sector for operational staff affairs to

11     make a new organisational structure of the General Staff, all

12     organisational units submit their respective proposals to the sector for

13     organisation, manning, and ... and mobilisation systemic issues.

14             Then what ensued is a discussion at the level of organisational

15     units and the amended proposals are submitted to the Chief of

16     General Staff, to who they were presented.  What was -- he is informed of

17     what was harmonised and what was not, and then it is up to him to decide.

18             Based on that decision, the administration for organisation and

19     manning produces the document in accordance with the order of the Chief

20     of General Staff.

21             I hope that I was being clear enough now.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

23             MR. SAXON:  Well, Your Honour, what the witness has just

24     explained then really raises some additional issues.  How do we know then

25     that what we're seeing here, what is being offered by the Defence was the

Page 9951

 1     final version that was approved by the Chief of the General Staff?

 2             We've heard no evidence of that, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I merely asked the

 5     witness whether this document was produced in the General Staff of the

 6     Army of Yugoslavia.

 7        Q.   Just answer that question.

 8        A.   Yes, it was.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Well, then the issue, Your Honour, goes to probative

10     value.  If we don't know whether this was the final version that was

11     approved by the Chief of the General Staff, then what probative value

12     would this document have in this case?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the Prosecution

14     challenges the authenticity, that is one thing.  The witness explained

15     the structure, and that it was in full correspondence, it fully matched

16     the schematic, and that this schematic was made by the General Staff.

17             The witness stated that this is a reflection of the

18     organisational structure of the General Staff at the time.  And this

19     schematic was produced in the General Staff, and I believe that it is

20     admissible as evidence.

21             MR. SAXON:  Then, Your Honour, this may very well be one of the

22     proposals that the witness described a few moments ago.  We don't know

23     whether this version was accepted as the proper version by the Chief of

24     the General Staff.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can't you solve that but just asking the witness?

Page 9952

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I needn't say at all

 2     that this is the version as signed by the Chief of General Staff.  This

 3     witness was saying that this version, this document, was made in the

 4     General Staff as the document that reflected the functioning of the

 5     General Staff at that time.

 6             If I had a document signed by the Chief of General Staff, that

 7     would be one thing.  But this is a schematic which shows that this

 8     document was produced in the General Staff.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question is not whether it was signed by the

10     General Staff [sic].  It is whether he approved it.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Simic, do you know whether General Perisic approved such a

13     schematic?

14        A.   Absolutely.  This schematic is one of the appendices that we used

15     at the time while we were working on these documents.

16             MR. SAXON:  Well, Your Honour, if this document -- if this

17     schematic was used as an appendix while documents were being worked on,

18     that does not necessarily indicate that this is a final version that was

19     approved.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Wait a minute, wait a minute.

21             Mr. -- Mr. Simic, did you indicate at the beginning, when you

22     started with these schematics, were they attached to an order by the

23     Chief of General Staff or are they just separate documents?  They're not

24     attached to anything.  Because I thought, when you started, there was an

25     order, and then there was the schematics which were attachments.

Page 9953

 1             Can you just correct me there?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said both.  The methodology of

 3     work was such that the operations administration issues a systemic order

 4     as to what must be done by organisational units.  It is clear it is

 5     defined that each has to submit a proposal on behalf of its

 6     organisational unit as to the structure of the future General Staff.

 7     Based on that order of the Chief of General Staff, the organisational

 8     units submit their own proposals to the sector for organisation and

 9     manning, and based on all these proposals, a discussion takes place about

10     what is good, what isn't, what should be changed, et cetera, and we come

11     up with a single position.

12             Based on that, the organisational sector takes a decision which

13     will be signed by the Chief of General Staff with these appendices but

14     not all of them, because it didn't all happen at the same moment.  It --

15     it went on over a period of time.  So one schematic applies to one

16     period, another to another period, et cetera.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   General --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you please listen to my question and --

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I maybe be able to help

21     before you ask your question.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I asked a question and I'd like it to be answered.

23             Listen to my question very carefully.  My question to you is:  As

24     you started testifying about the schematics, I got the impression that

25     these schematics are attachments to the order issued by the General --

Page 9954

 1     the Chief of the General Staff.  Am I right in saying so, or am I wrong?

 2     Are they part of a document that forms the order that was issued by the

 3     Chief of the General Staff?

 4             Your answer is going to be yes, or no, or I don't know.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to put another question

 8     before your final decision about the authenticity of this document.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.  Go ahead.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the B/C/S version of

11     this document on the screen, please.

12             Could the stamp please be blown up?  It's in the right-hand side

13     corner.  This is for the witness to read and tell us whose stamp this is.

14        Q.   Could you possibly read --

15        A.   The Republic of Serbia, Ministry of Defence, Belgrade.

16        Q.   Where would a document of this kind and with this stamp originate

17     from?

18        A.   The Ministry of Defence.

19        Q.   The Republic of Serbia?

20        A.   The Republic of Serbia.

21        Q.   Because it is the successor of --

22        A.   Yes, it is the successor of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you say it originates from the minister of

25     defence?  It doesn't originate from the office of the Chief of Staff.

Page 9955

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The office of the Chief of General

 2     Staff is a miniature unit in the organisation and it could not be

 3     responsible for such a complex task.  There are tactical subjects

 4     responsible for that.  It originates from the minister of defence because

 5     at that time we inherited that from the minister of defence, General

 6     Zivota Panic was still the Chief of General Staff and the other Panic was

 7     minister of defence.  The two had not been separated at the time.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to clarify

 9     and answer your question, but I -- for that, I would need to send the

10     witness out of the courtroom.  I would like to avoid any further

11     confusion but I don't want the discussion to take place in front of the

12     witness.

13             So can the witness please be removed for a couple of minutes,

14     please?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It will not be necessary.  The document is

16     admitted into evidence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I wish -- I would like to clarify

18     one more thing.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... trouble is,

20     are you going to take the witness-stand.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.  There's no need for the witness

22     to leave, I agree.  But I would like to clarify that all documents that

23     bear this stamp, and the Prosecutor knows it, originate from the archives

24     of the Ministry of Serbia.  That's where the archives are housed.  All

25     the documents that the OTP received from the National Council for

Page 9956

 1     Cooperation with The Hague Tribunal originate from the archives of the

 2     Ministry of Serbia.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have already given a ruling.  Thanks for the

 4     explanation.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

 6     Exhibit D196.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   General, let's look at another table very briefly.  It's 65 ter,

10     for the next sequence of transformations, 65 ter 00803D.  12 May 1994 is

11     the date that this table bears.

12             And -- just briefly --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And can we -- we do see the B/C/S [Overlapping

14     speakers] ... it has a stamp.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation][Overlapping speakers] ... yes, of

16     course.  Yes, of course.  Of course, can we have the English, please,

17     yes.  Could we have the English version on the screen, please.

18        Q.   Just a few words with regard to the changes on the previous

19     structure of the General Staff.

20        A.   Which schematic do you have in mind?

21        Q.   12 May 1994.

22        A.   I don't have that schematic, as far as I can tell.  The month of

23     May.  I have the month of June 1993; December 1993; 12 May 1994.  I

24     apologise.

25        Q.   Yes, that's the one.

Page 9957

 1        A.   I apologise.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where is that date on this English version?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could move to the right?  Could you

 4     move the document to the right?  No, sorry, to the left, in order to

 5     display the date in the right upper corner.

 6             Now I've just been told that there's no date, although in the

 7     B/C/S there is a date, Your Honours.  Maybe we can display the official

 8     translation -- or, rather, the B/C/S original.

 9             Can you see the date in the upper right-hand side corner?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, I can see.

11             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

12             MR. SAXON:  If I can assist, on the bottom of page 3 of my

13     English translation, there is an date, or at least there seems to be a

14     footer, which describes the document and gives the date.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.  We don't see that part.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Tell me, please -- all right.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Witness, where do you see a difference, if you do?

21        A.   Can you -- can I have it on the screen?

22        Q.   The English version only a few sentences.

23        A.   In this schematic, in our further work, a need arose for the

24     organisational unit to be called by its proper name.  For example, sector

25     for operations and staff affairs.  And the chief who covered that

Page 9958

 1     establishment post was then called the assistant Chief of General Staff

 2     for operations and staff affairs.  Accordingly, a need also arose for a

 3     chief himself, because of the technical requirements he had, and the

 4     coordination with his subordinates, to exist a miniature organ that we

 5     called a sector for operations and staff affairs.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  This is not of a -- any consequence for our

 7     case -- for our case.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

 9     into evidence, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Even though it is of no consequence to your case.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no, what the witness has just

12     told us is enough.  I don't want to pursue the matter any further.  He

13     told us that there were changes indeed within the sector, within the

14     framework of the sector, and that suffices.  I don't want to pursue the

15     matter any further.

16             I would like to speed things along.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

18     please be given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

20     Exhibit D197.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And the last schematic, could we have

23     it on the screen?  65 ter 00806D, dated 29 December 1995.

24        Q.   You have a hard copy, General, I believe.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9959

 1        Q.   I will have just one question with regard this schematic,

 2     something that I want to hear from you.

 3             We saw that, during the previous period, the intelligence

 4     administration, that you also called the 2nd Administration, was part of

 5     the sector for operations and staff affairs.  Could you tell us what

 6     happened to it as a result of this transformation that took place in

 7     December 1995?

 8        A.   The intelligence administration or the 2nd Administration for

 9     intelligence, or just the 2nd Administration as it was referred to in the

10     previous schematic, a need arose for the Chief of General Staff to have

11     that administration directly linked to him so as to be able to

12     communicate with it without any mediators and to receive information

13     first-hand.  And that's why this was removed from the sector for

14     operations and staff affairs, and became directly attached to the Chief

15     of General Staff.

16        Q.   It became an independent administration?

17        A.   Yes.  It became an independent administration within the

18     General Staff, which means that one step was skipped within the chain of

19     command and the Chief of General Staff received direct information.

20        Q.   Who was the head of the intelligence administration during that

21     period of time that we're talking about?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down, slow down. [Microphone not activated].

23             You may answer, sir.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   You may answer.

Page 9960

 1        A.   Branko Krga, General Branko Krga.  And later on, he became the

 2     Chief of General Staff.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I please tender this document

 4     into evidence as well.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 6     please be given an exhibit number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 8     Exhibit D198.  Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   And now we shall go back to the order on the authorities of

11     organisational units but we will be dealing exclusively with your sector

12     and your administration.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But before that, Your Honours, I

14     would like to refer to the document that we looked at as a general

15     introduction.  The number is D176D [as interpreted] to be tendered into

16     evidence, that was the first part of that order, and now we will be

17     dealing with the second part of that order and we will call it up on the

18     screen.

19             I would like that tender 00376D into evidence.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  00376D, the document is admitted into evidence.

21     May it please be given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

23     Exhibit D199.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9961

 1        Q.   Mr. Simic, let's talk about the sector where you spent most of

 2     your career in the General Staff, and especially about its

 3     1st Administration.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

 5     65 ter 0114D.  B/C/S page 7; English page 1.

 6             Let me repeat, 1114.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How many 1s?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated] 1114D.

 9             [Interpretation] Page 7 in B/C/S, please; page 1 in English,

10     please.

11             Could you please move the B/C/S version to the left?  I am

12     interested in bullet point 16.  Thank you very much.

13        Q.   Let's analyse the sector for operations and staff affairs.

14             General, you can see here what the basic functions of the sector

15     are.  Could you please explain in your own words what the significance of

16     the sector was?

17        A.   The sector for operations and staff affairs unified and

18     coordinated the activities of its organisational units when it came to

19     the performance and discharge of tasks and duties.  Actually, it was a

20     staff organ of the General Staff.  And in this particular schematic, you

21     can see that it was dealing with the tasks pertaining to planning, the

22     engagement and combat readiness, planning the development of the VJ,

23     combat training and education, as well as intelligence support to the VJ.

24             This is -- this is where a different administration was -- or,

25     rather, the 2nd Administration was still part of that sector.

Page 9962

 1        Q.   Very well.  What was the place of the 1st Administration within

 2     the framework of this sector?

 3        A.   Mr. Lukic, I was the chief of that administration, so it is very

 4     difficult for me to say; however, before the Trial Chamber, I have to say

 5     it.  This administration was on a par -- or, rather, what the General

 6     Staff was for the Supreme Command, that's what this administration was

 7     for the General Staff.  Or let me define this in different words.

 8             The 1st Administration was a staff administrative coordinating

 9     interbranch professional organ, which used to perform functional tasks.

10     I've used --

11        Q.   That administration as well as all the other organs had its

12     own -- its basic function.  It had other functions and tasks.  And it

13     says here very clearly.  But could you please use your own words and tell

14     us what the basic function of the 1st Administration was?

15        A.   The basic functions of the 1st Administration were multi-fold.

16     There were maybe eight or nine of them, but the most important was the

17     planning, the engagement and combat readiness of the Army of Yugoslavia;

18     planning the elements or devising the strategical elements of the

19     development of VJ; the preparation of terrain; scientific and research

20     work within the area of military skills.

21        Q.   I would like to ask you something else.  What is the connection

22     between the administration and the border?

23        A.   State border security was one of its tasks and functions.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to the following

25     page in B/C/S and can we also display page 2 in the English version.

Page 9963

 1        Q.   When we were talking about the principles or basic principles

 2     laid out at the beginning of this order, you told us what the sense of

 3     this order was.  This is very clearly spelled out.  But could you please

 4     tell us, when it come to the 1st Administration, who did the

 5     1st Administration command?

 6        A.   The 1st Administration, and this applies to all of the

 7     organisational units, commands its own subordinated organisations and

 8     units.  Let me be more specific.  The 1st Administration had the first

 9     department, a second department, a department for operations and general

10     planning.  They are a section for state border and operational centre.

11     Those were its organisational units that the 1st Administration was

12     composed of and it was also immediately or directly linked to the

13     military and geographic institute, but that was not an organisational

14     unit of the General Staff but it -- it was outside of the General Staff.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down.  I can see that you speak slowly

16     fairly, but funnily enough the interpreter is having difficulty keeping

17     pace with you.  So if you could try to slow down as you speak, sir, I

18     would appreciate it very much.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  I get

20     carried away in testifying.  I will try to avoid being cautioned in the

21     future.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Let me now ask you the following.  The tasks are listed here.  I

25     will only ask you about some.

Page 9964

 1             The first task mentioned here monitors and assesses the military

 2     and security situation in the surrounding countries, and issues orders as

 3     to the taking of measures for the defence of the country.

 4             Is this basically the most important or maybe the upper-most task

 5     of the 1st Administration?

 6        A.   I agree with you that this is one of the important tasks of the

 7     1st Administration, because any surprise is meant to be prevented by

 8     that.

 9             Let me repeat:  The monitoring and assessment of the military and

10     political situation in the territory, the territorial waters and the

11     air-space, a professional assessment of the situation, the drawing of

12     conclusions as to how that situation affects the security of the

13     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and, in accordance with that, it proposes

14     that certain measures be taken, measures of combat readiness.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't see on the document what are you talking

16     about.  What you said in your question and the answer, I don't see on the

17     document.

18             You asked the question:

19             "The first task mentioned here monitors and assesses the military

20     and security situation in the surrounding countries, and issues orders as

21     to the taking of measures for the defence of the country."

22             I didn't see it -- where on that page that was being shown, and

23     the answer that came thereafter.  I tried to look, I couldn't see it.

24             I see the page has now changed.  I don't know ...

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the English --

Page 9965

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- it is [In English] monitoring.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We moved that --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, sorry.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It was there on the page that I was looking at at

 6     the time.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry.  [Interpretation] We apologise, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's not your fault.  It's ... it's the screen.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I will

10     just check something in the transcript.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The next thing I'm interested in is the following item:

14             "Draws up, updates and inspects the plans of engagement of VJ?"

15             Let me ask you General, what exactly is a plan of engagement of

16     the army?

17        A.   The plan of engagement of the VJ is a complex document which must

18     be made early on and defines how the army is to be used in war.  It is

19     the 1st Administration that is tasked with drafting these plans and it

20     does so in organisation with -- in -- sorry, in coordination with all

21     organisational units of the General Staff.  It is the only unit

22     authorised to keep those plans and controls them in the subordinate

23     units.  It also monitors the updating of those plans, in accordance with

24     organisational changes performed in individual commands or units.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Right below that, there's something that we will

Page 9966

 1     discuss later, and it refers to the border service.  But let me ask you

 2     first:  How do you explain the following tasks?  It is charged with the

 3     drafting of the plan of strategic camouflage.

 4        A.   We all know that all armies in the world, which certainly

 5     includes the Army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, try to keep its

 6     plans of engagement secret, so as to prevent intelligence services to

 7     come by that information.  That is why the plan of operative and

 8     strategic camouflage is made.

 9             It means, very briefly, that this plan is meant to deceive the

10     possible adversary with regard to our real intents.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like this document to be

13     marked for identification because we don't yet have a full English

14     translation.  But once we get it, we'll tender it into evidence.

15             I don't intend to ask the witness anything else about this

16     document.  As I said, this is 001114D.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence and marked

18     for identification.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

20     Exhibit D200, marked for identification.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see document 01129D

23     on the screen, please.

24        Q.   This is an extract about the internal organisation of the

25     1st Administration, which is your administration, sir.

Page 9967

 1             Can you see the document on the screen in front of you,

 2     Mr. Simic?  If not, I can provide a hard copy.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Who signed the document?

 5        A.   This is my signature.

 6        Q.   What is this about?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please turn the page,

 8     please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What this is about, I have

10     described to you how a certain organisational structure is developed.  We

11     can see from this document that the chief of sector requested all

12     administrations to submit their view on the future organisational

13     structure and the functional tasks of their respective administrations.

14             I drafted this with my co-workers and submitted it to the head of

15     sector which will integrate all such proposals at the level of the entire

16     sector and the -- the following procedure is as described before.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to see page 7 of the

18     B/C/S version, and page 6 of the English version.

19        Q.   I'm only interested in two organisational units on which I would

20     like your comments, sir.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please enlarge the B/C/S text,

22     the second paragraph, for the General to see better.

23        Q.   I'm interested to hear from you about the tasks and authority of

24     the state border sector.

25        A.   This sector -- or, actually, section is an organisational unit of

Page 9968

 1     the 1st Administration.  It has the basic task of regulating, monitoring

 2     the situation and proposing that certain measures be taken to the end of

 3     securing the state border.

 4             At the level of -- of an army, we had organs for the border

 5     service.  All the reports from the border organs were forwarded along the

 6     chain of command.  They were subordinate to the commander of the army,

 7     and the officer in charge of state border-related issues would forward it

 8     to me.

 9        Q.   Let us be more precise.  Which chain of command exactly are we

10     now referring to, with regard to this organisational unit of the

11     General Staff?

12        A.   When it comes to professional expertise, border units are linked

13     with the border section of the 1st Administration.  In the chain of

14     command, they are linked with the corps commanders or army commanders

15     respectively, in their respective zones of responsibility.

16        Q.   One more organisational unit about which we will speak more

17     extensively during your testimony is one more thing I'm interested in.

18             Tell us, please, what is the operative centre of the

19     General Staff of the VJ?  Can you explain to the Trial Chamber in simple

20     terms.

21        A.   The operative centre of the General Staff of the VJ is also an

22     organisational unit of the 1st Administration, which exclusively deals

23     with the collection of information from the territory, territorial waters

24     and air-space of other federal organs in the country and, together with

25     them, drafts reports about the information so collected for certain

Page 9969

 1     persons in the General Staff.

 2             It has a staff of 13 experienced officers with a rank of colonel,

 3     with abundant experience in the units or the staffs of armies and corps.

 4     They needed at least 20 years of experience.

 5        Q.   We'll speak about this document -- these documents some more.

 6     But what was their -- what were their working hours?

 7        A.   The operative centre works round the clock, seven days a week.

 8     It has such equipment and materiel that enable it to be in -- to have

 9     communication with all subordinate army commands and also with the

10     federal institutions in charge, such as the office of the minister of

11     defence and the operative centre of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia,

12     the centre for information and --

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have an exhibit number for

15     this document?  There's no need for me to ask questions about the

16     remainder of the document at the time being.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

18     please be given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

20     Exhibit D201.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I would now pass onto another document and another task of yours.

24             Was one of the tasks of the 1st Administration drafting the plans

25     of activities of the General Staff of the VJ for a certain period?

Page 9970

 1        A.   I have mentioned, among others, that there was a department for

 2     operative and general planning.  It was via this department that the

 3     1st Administration drafted monthly and annual plans of activities of the

 4     General Staff.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see document 65 ter 00966D,

 6     please.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  0096D.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is 966D.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   We can give you a hard copy, General, if you want, or maybe we

12     can enlarge it on the screen.  I think it will be better to give you a

13     hard copy.

14             Who is the author of this document?  Can you see it?

15        A.   Yes, I can see it, but I'm waiting for you to fulfil your

16     promise.

17        Q.   I just wanted to make use of the time while we're waiting.

18             What is this document, Mr. Simic?

19        A.   This document is an accompanying document which I, as a chief of

20     the 1st Administration of the General Staff, signed.

21             There's a distribution list, and you can see to who it was

22     distributed, to all organisational units of the General Staff, and those

23     immediately subordinated in the chain of command; directly subordinated

24     to the chief of General Staff, that is.  You can see that 22 copies were

25     made and to who it was distributed.

Page 9971

 1        Q.   Let us be precise.  Under 22 of the -- in the distribution list,

 2     who is that?

 3        A.   It is the inspection of the VJ.

 4        Q.   But above that, 22?

 5        A.   The federal Ministry of Defence.  No, it is not subordinated.

 6     But I mentioned that there was cooperation and, therefore, it was

 7     required for certain organisational units of the ministries to be

 8     informed.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to the following page in

10     both language versions.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You asked the question who is number 22 on the

12     distribution list.  I don't see a number 22.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Uh-huh.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Please tell us, although it says here, to who was this plan

17     forwarded and who approves it?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see page 3 in the English,

19     please.  Yes, thank you.

20        Q.   Now, tell us, whose responsibility was it to approve this plan?

21             On page 2, you can see it in the left corner.

22        A.   This work-plan is approved by the Chief of the General Staff.  It

23     was made by the 1st Administration in cooperation with other

24     organisational units, and I forwarded it to all relevant units who were

25     meant to implement it.

Page 9972

 1        Q.   We can see on page 3 of the B/C/S and on page 4 of the English -

 2     if we could have that on our screens - that there are general goals and

 3     specific goals, but I don't want to dwell on that because it can be read

 4     easily.

 5             But, now, let's go to B/C/S page 4 and page 5 of the English.

 6             Could you please comment -- let's just wait for it to appear on

 7     the screen.

 8             So here's what I'm interested in.  Could you please comment on

 9     these priority tasks.  How do you explain them in relation to what is

10     written here on this page, under 1, please.

11        A.   Here you can see that we define in global terms what a general

12     goal was, what special goals were, and then those served to define tasks.

13     And within the scope of the tasks not all the tasks carry the same

14     specific weight, and that's why we expressed, under C, what our priority

15     tasks were.

16             I can say that two-thirds of the forces and resources of the Army

17     of Yugoslavia were to be used to deal with the priority tasks.

18        Q.   Could you please comment upon the first priority task, only the

19     first one.

20        A.   The first priority task is similar to what I said about the

21     operations centre.

22             It says here:  Monitor and assess the military and political

23     situation in the country and in the surrounding area.  And then proposes

24     the taking of relevant measures with a view to raising combat readiness.

25        Q.   Why does it say here that the situation has to be monitored and

Page 9973

 1     assessed primarily in the crisis areas of the country and the areas of

 2     the seceded republics?  Why was that important?

 3        A.   You are leading me to talk about details, and I said in the

 4     country, in the immediate surroundings, which also implies what you've

 5     just stated.  In the seceded republics there was a civil war going on,

 6     and such a situation could have an adverse impact on the security of the

 7     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  That is why the tasks -- the task takes

 8     priority.  And there is another task which mentions crisis areas within

 9     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

10        Q.   Could you please just say a few sentences as to what was

11     happening in the 1994 and 1995, and what was considered crisis areas?

12        A.   A reference was being made in the media about a possible armed

13     rebellion in Kosovo and Metohija, and we used that term "crisis areas"

14     when referring to that territory.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 7 in B/C/S, as well

16     as in English.

17        Q.   We see some tables here and let's provide the Trial Chamber with

18     some information which will help them analyse the document at a later

19     stage.

20             Could you please tell us a few words about what we see on the

21     pages before us.

22        A.   This is a tabular part of the annual plan.

23             In the left-hand side column, we can what the basis for the task

24     was.  The first task, it says the order of the Chief of General Staff and

25     a reference is made to its number.  The second column is the name of the

Page 9974

 1     task or, rather, what needs to be done.

 2             Column 4 provides the task code which ties it to the rest of the

 3     plans.

 4             Number 5 is who is responsible for the task.  This is very

 5     important for us.  The person or body responsible is the administration

 6     or the organisational unit which is fully responsible for the performance

 7     of the task, irrespective of the fact that there are others -- other

 8     organisational units cooperating as associated organisation.  It may be

 9     just one organisational unit or more than one.

10             Then in column 7, you can see how the task will be verified and

11     it is usually done by the collegium of the chiefs of General Staff or the

12     Deputy Chief of General Staff.

13             And, finally, all tasks obviously have their deadlines within

14     which they have to be carried out.

15             Since this is an annual plan, deadlines are expressed in months.

16     And in monthly plans, the task is broken down and the plan provides the

17     exact number of things that will be done in one month.

18        Q.   Could you please consult your hard copy and tell us who signed

19     the document?  Look at the last page of your B/C/S document.

20        A.   It was the Deputy Chief of General Staff.  That was, at the

21     moment, when the function of a deputy was introduced.  Before that, such

22     a document would have been signed by the assistant Chief of General Staff

23     for operations and staff affairs.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

25     into evidence and I will no longer need it after that.

Page 9975

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit D202.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the time is good for

 7     our next break.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you so much.  We

 9     will take a break until half past 12.00.

10             Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I thank you.

15        Q.   We will move on to a different topic, and we will leave the

16     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia aside.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

18     65 ter 00611D.

19        Q.   Did you ever hear of the term "the staff of the supreme commander

20     of the Army of Yugoslavia," and can you explain the term to us?  What is

21     it?

22        A.   Not only did I hear of it, but I also know that, according to our

23     theory and our doctrine, the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia,

24     during the times of war and under an immediate threat of war, it is

25     transformed from the peacetime establishment into the staff of the

Page 9976

 1     supreme commander and deployed in several command posts at the same time.

 2        Q.   When an immediate threat of war -- when was the immediate threat

 3     of war and war declared in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?  Don't

 4     have to give us the exact date.

 5        A.   Are you referring to the NATO aggression?

 6        Q.   Did anything to that effect happen before?

 7        A.   Before that, the state of war was never declared.  Not during the

 8     period while General Perisic was in position.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down.  Slow down.  Again, you're speaking

10     both at the same time and the interpreter is having serious problems,

11     okay?

12             You may proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Yes.  This is it exactly what I asked you.  When you said the

15     aggression, when did that happen, in Kosovo?

16        A.   In 1999.

17        Q.   So you're saying while General Perisic was the Chief of General

18     Staff and before that, do you know whether the state of war or an

19     immediate threat of war was ever declared?

20        A.   While General Perisic was the Chief of General Staff, neither of

21     the two was ever declared.

22        Q.   And when Zivota Panic was the Chief of the General Staff of the

23     Army of Yugoslavia?

24        A.   Not even then.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's look at a document which is on the

Page 9977

 1     screen before you.  Would you like to receive it in a hard copy?

 2        A.   Yes, please.  It will be easier.  The screen is too far.

 3        Q.   We will have a hard copy for each of the documents that we will

 4     call up.

 5             I already showed you this document during your preparations for

 6     testimony.  It was signed by the then-Chief of General Staff,

 7     Zivota Panic, in 1993, and in the preamble you can see that it says:

 8             "Based on the tasks for the transformation of the Yugoslav Army,

 9     the changes effected in the command system and demonstrated need, the

10     Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army hereby issues," and so on

11     and so forth.

12             An order on the establishment and makeup of the staff of the

13     supreme commander of the Yugoslav Army.

14             Could you provide any comment to this document.  Do you know

15     whether that staff of the Supreme Command existed?  Why did it exist if

16     there was no immediate threat of war, if there was no state of war

17     declared at the time?

18        A.   I feel a bit embarrassed to comment upon the preceding period.

19     However, the preamble itself does not have its legal foundation for such

20     a wording of this document.

21             As I already told you, the staff of the supreme commander, during

22     a war or under an immediate threat of war, exists and the composition

23     that can you see in this document is a collegium.  Actually, it is a body

24     composed of chiefs of General Staff which is just called with a different

25     name.  In order for a command or staff to function as a staff of the

Page 9978

 1     Supreme Command, it has to be split into several unities.  Let me not go

 2     that way.  And in this particular case, this wasn't the case.

 3        Q.   In essence?

 4        A.   In essence, nothing was changed with the change of name.  Nothing

 5     is changed from the aspect of the methods of work of the Chief of General

 6     Staff.

 7        Q.   You mean -- you mean the collegium?

 8        A.   Yes, I mean the collegium.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

11     admitted into evidence.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

13     please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

15     Exhibit D203.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now could the witness please be

18     shown P727.  We have prepared a hard copy for the witness, to be provided

19     to the witness while the document is being called up.

20        Q.   You don't have to tell us the date, but tell us when Mr. Perisic

21     became the Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia,

22     approximately?

23        A.   General Perisic became the Chief of General Staff sometime in

24     August 1993, towards the end of August of that year.

25        Q.   And when we were talking about your CV earlier today, after that,

Page 9979

 1     you became the chief of the 1st Administration in the autumn of that

 2     year?

 3        A.   Yes.  That same year, in November, pursuant to his order I was

 4     appointed the chief of the 1st Administration.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Look at this document.  I would like to you comment

 6     upon it just briefly.  This document was signed by General Perisic.  And

 7     on page 1 -- could you please comment upon the contents of the first

 8     page?

 9        A.   This document, issued by the Chief of General Staff, was aimed at

10     regulating the implementation of certain tasks.  And to explain this a

11     bit better, this is actually a method of work to be adopted by the Chief

12     of General Staff.

13        Q.   You mean the collegium?

14        A.   Yes, the collegium of the Chief of General Staff and the

15     organisational units.

16             This document defines when, on what days things will be done.

17     For example, on Monday will be one thing; on Fridays something else; on

18     Wednesday a certain activity in the administration and so on and so

19     forth.  And it also schedules the meetings of the collegium.

20        Q.   Do you know, at least approximately, I'm not looking for the

21     exact date, when the collegiums of the chief of General Staffs started

22     being operational and replaced the staff of the supreme commander?

23        A.   As far as I can remember, General Perisic continued functioning,

24     pursuant to that order issued by General Panic, all the way up to perhaps

25     February or March 1994.  And then the collegium was established.  He

Page 9980

 1     renamed that body into a collegium, and that's how things were done

 2     thereafter.

 3        Q.   Here we can see daily meetings, weekly meetings and monthly

 4     meetings.  Is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Daily meetings, as we can see, let us not quote, comprised a

 7     certain number of persons whom you can see here.  There are also weekly

 8     meetings and topics, as well as monthly meetings.  In a period

 9     thereafter, when the collegium started being operational, did it maintain

10     the similar form of daily, weekly and monthly meetings?

11        A.   By and large.  But he also defined some other contents which were

12     not appropriate for the staff of the Supreme Command.  For example, on

13     Wednesday, there was briefing across the board of all administrations and

14     so on and so forth.

15             And that's why I used the term "similarities" between the former

16     document and this document.  This document, however, is more appropriate

17     for the daily operational command.  That's the term that you used.  And

18     we, when we defined things, we called it a method of work of the Chief of

19     General Staff.

20        Q.   On page 3 of the same document, could you please look at it just

21     briefly.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated].

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the English, just bear with me,

24     please.  I believe it's the last English page.  I believe it's the same

25     page, page 3.

Page 9981

 1             I don't know whether the Trial Chamber -- could the previous page

 2     be displayed for the Trial Chamber.

 3             Could you perhaps scroll up the English version a little.  I

 4     don't know whether this is the end of that page or not.  Can we see the

 5     top of the page, please?  That's what I would like to see.  Uh-huh.  Yes,

 6     yes.

 7             Your Honours, I'm going ask the witness about the part beginning

 8     with the word:  "The plan."  Perhaps the Trial Chamber could first look

 9     at the English version of this page and maybe we can then turn to the

10     following page in the English version.

11        Q.   What is this?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the following page in

13     English.

14        Q.   Mr. Simic, what is the page that you have before you, this page

15     in this document?

16        A.   This is the plan work of one of the meetings of that staff of the

17     supreme commander or, rather, the collegium, as we called it

18     subsequently.  And this plan defines the issues to be discussed by the

19     collegium.  People who will be presenting certain topics and the duration

20     of the discussion.  This was drafted by the office of the Chief of

21     General Staff and it was approved by General Perisic.

22        Q.   And here reference is made to a certain number of topics

23     following a certain sequence.  Do you remember it that way, when

24     collegiums of the Chief of General Staff -- this is how things were done.

25     There was sequence of topics.

Page 9982

 1        A.   That was more or less the sequence that was followed.  At the

 2     beginning, the focus was on the situation and activities of a foreign

 3     countries and -- important for the Yugoslav Army and the security of

 4     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  That was the sector of the chief of

 5     intelligence administration.  Then activity of foreign intelligence

 6     services towards Yugoslav Army and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 7     This was presented by the chief of security, because that was his

 8     purview.  And then, number 3, was combat readiness in the Army of

 9     Yugoslavia.  The presenter was the appropriate officer, the usual

10     suspect, I apologise for the pun.

11        Q.   We will no longer need this document.  We will move on to a

12     different topic.  This is already in evidence.

13             And now I would like us to talk about the border duties.

14             In one of the previous documents, we saw that the functioning of

15     the border patrols was something that your administration was concerned

16     with.

17             First of all, let me ask you this:  What were the changes that

18     were affected with regard to the state border after the breakup of the

19     SFRY and the establishment of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

20        A.   The initial changes had to do with the lack of definition of the

21     state border facing particular former republics of the Federative

22     Republic of Yugoslavia, to be more specific, the Republic of Croatia and

23     the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The state border, as such,

24     pursuant to international law, we all know what it is.  I don't need to

25     go there.  And my department for state border was tasked with the

Page 9983

 1     security of the state border.  I apologise for saying "my department."

 2     It was a department in the 1st Administration that I was the head of.

 3        Q.   What were the names of the borders facing the Republic of Croatia

 4     and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as the Republic of

 5     Macedonia before the breakup of the Socialist Federative Republic of

 6     Yugoslavia?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down.  Please slow down.  The interpreters

 8     have serious problems.  Yeah, if you take a breath every time.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a generally known fact that

10     the Federative Republic of Yugoslavia had its republics and that those

11     republics were separated by administrative borders.  There came a time

12     when Yugoslavia broke up as a federal state, and those borders became

13     state borders.  From the aspect of international law and from the aspect

14     of our forces, materiel and equipment, this fact created a lot of

15     problems when it came to providing security for such newly established

16     state borders.

17        Q.   Why did that pose problems?  What kind of problems?

18        A.   The main problems arose from the fact that there was a lack of

19     definition of that border.  The state border-line was often determined,

20     pursuant to the cadastre borders of the municipalities which was not a

21     good enough proof that that was indeed the state border and that it

22     mandated to be protected by the state.  That was one problem.

23             The second problem was the fact that from the year 1945, we did

24     not have enough infrastructure on the borders facing other states.  There

25     were no agreements to that effect with the neighbouring states.  There

Page 9984

 1     were no sentry posts.  There was no technical equipment.  The state

 2     borders did not function as such on the borders between the former

 3     republics.  The population in those areas was not used to the fact that

 4     they are now living close to the state borders and they treated the

 5     orders of state borders in ways that could not have always been construed

 6     as correct and fair.

 7        Q.   Who was it who provided security for what parts of the state

 8     border?

 9        A.   The state border facing the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina, was within the purview and I'm talking from the

11     aspect of the highest levels, it was within the purview of the command of

12     the 1st Army and the command of the 2nd Army.  The command of the

13     1st Army was in Belgrade and the command of the 2nd Army was in

14     Podgorica.

15        Q.   Who had authority over border crossings and who was charged with

16     securing them?

17        A.   Perhaps I should have said at the outset that there were rules in

18     force about the border service, and that these rules clearly defined what

19     is to be considered a border and what exactly a border crossing is, which

20     organs had what kind of rights on the border-line or at the border

21     crossing.

22             To your specific question, I can provide the following answer.

23     The Army of Yugoslavia was responsible for securing the state border

24     outside border crossings and outside inhabited areas.

25        Q.   And when it comes to border crossings and inhabited or populated

Page 9985

 1     areas, under whose authority were they?

 2        A.   It was the MUP of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia that had

 3     authority over the border crossings, as well as the organs of the customs

 4     service.  In populated areas -- or, rather, populated areas were under

 5     the authority of the Ministry of the Interior.

 6        Q.   When you said MUP, that is what exactly?

 7        A.   It's the Ministry of the Interior.  I apologise.  I will try to

 8     avoid abbreviations.

 9        Q.   No, that's all right, but we must be precise.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please show

11     document 01050D to the witness, from the 65 ter list of Defence

12     documents.  That is 65 ter 01050D.

13        Q.   I have no hard copy of this document so I will ask General Simic

14     to look closely at the screen.

15             You have seen it already, sir, so you should be familiar with it.

16     But it will be enlarged any moment now.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please enlarge somewhat the

18     B/C/S version?

19        Q.   It seems we won't be able to do so.

20        A.   No, it's okay.  I'm familiar with this document.

21        Q.   If we could first -- or maybe let me read it out.  Let us take a

22     look at this second page to see who signed the document and then I will

23     read a few sentences and ask you for a comment.  And that seems to be the

24     simplest way of proceeding.

25             You have been able to see by the letterhead that it was sent from

Page 9986

 1     the office of the Chief of General Staff, and now please tell us who

 2     signed it.

 3        A.   Colonel Ivan Todorovic, the chief of the office.

 4        Q.   I will now go back to the first page from which I will read to

 5     the witness.  I will only read out extracts.

 6             This document is called, The engagement of the Army of Yugoslavia

 7     in securing the border to ensure the peace and safety of citizens in the

 8     Pljevlja municipality.  It is sent to the office of the defence minister.

 9             We can see why this document was drafted.  And now, in

10     paragraph 2, we read:

11             "It is strictly regulated in Article 48, paragraph 1, of the

12     Law of Crossing the State Border and Movement in the Border Area," and

13     then we see references to the Official Gazette, "that border army units

14     shall secure the state border and control the movement and stay of

15     persons in the border area outside populated places and border crossings,

16     to prevent unauthorised crossing of the state border and violations of

17     the border-line."

18             Does this correspond to what you have said a minute ago?

19        A.   Yes, absolutely.

20        Q.   Under Article 2 of the same law:

21             "The border zone shall include the 100-metre-wide area of the FRY

22     territory, land, rivers and lakes along the border-line."

23             Before I continue with the document, do tell us what the

24     border-line is?

25        A.   The border-line is the that separates the territories of two

Page 9987

 1     neighbouring countries.

 2        Q.   And now the securing of the border-line in depth, as it is

 3     phrased here.  What does that mean?

 4        A.   I would have to say what you have also read out, the border belt,

 5     or the border area.  That is, from the border-line, 100 metres deep into

 6     our territory, that area is called the border belt.  In that border belt,

 7     the army has the right to deprive any person of their liberty, if that

 8     person has no permit for staying in the border belt.  After the official

 9     procedure, such a person is handed over to the MUP organs.

10             Securing the border-line in depth means the following.  Since we

11     don't have a line of soldiers along the border-line, so you can't see

12     soldiers standing there at a certain distance from each other to secure

13     the border-line, but, instead, we do so through organs.  If the

14     assessment is that along certain directions some groups may try to cross

15     the border from a neighbouring country or that the border may be violated

16     in another way, we deploy additional organs in the border belt and, thus,

17     set up a -- an in-depth security structure.

18        Q.   I will read out this last sentence of this letter:

19             "The" --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please start anew, a bit slower.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Counsel, the interpreter requests that you start

22     again but go slowly.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we have it on the screen.  I

24     apologise to the interpreters.  I will read out that part again.

25        Q.   "The area outside the border belt is within the jurisdiction of

Page 9988

 1     the organs of the internal affairs which are responsible for preventing

 2     any unlawful action and securing of personal and material property and

 3     peace of all citizens of the FRY, including those of Pljevlja

 4     municipality."

 5             This corresponds to what you have said a short while ago, namely,

 6     that everything outside the border belt is under the authority of the

 7     Ministry of the Interior?

 8        A.   Outside the border belt, the VJ has no authority.  Even if they

 9     were to observe certain persons committing violations, they have no legal

10     authority to intervene.  But they can inform the nearest police station

11     using communications equipment.

12        Q.   I suppose it's their duty too.

13        A.   Yes, that's their duty.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now -- Your Honours, I seek to

15     tender this document.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

17             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, the Prosecution objects to the admission

18     of this document for two reasons.  First of all, my colleague Mr. Simic

19     [sic] has read substantial portions of the document into the record

20     already, and so I believe, according to the practice of this Chamber,

21     there is no need for this document to be admitted.

22             Second of all, I note from the top of the document it is titled a

23     draft reply, so once again, Your Honour, I don't see what the probative

24     value of this document will be, what weight could be given to it.  It was

25     someone's draft, we don't whether it was adopted, we don't know what

Page 9989

 1     happened to it, we don't know whether it was agreed upon.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I guess when your colleague on the

 3     opposite side, he said his colleague Mr. Simic, he meant his colleague

 4     Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was reading the document, although

 6     I know that is not in accordance with your guide-lines, Your Honours, but

 7     for purely practical reasons because we were unable to show it to the

 8     witness on the screen, and also to enable to you follow.  But this

 9     document says things that have a certain value.  If we read the first

10     paragraph, why this document was written, I didn't ask the witness about

11     the reasons.  I just wanted his testimony about the material parts of

12     this document and he confirm the authenticity and the significance of

13     this document.

14             I take it to be very relevant and clearly shows the -- the --

15     under whose purview the border belt was, so I don't see why we shouldn't

16     admit it for the purpose of this trial.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not answering to the issues raised by your

18     colleague.  Your colleague raises two objections why we shouldn't admit

19     it.  One, you have read into the record, so there's no need in terms of

20     the guide-lines.  Two, it's a draft and not a final document.  That's

21     what he says.

22             Now when you pull your face as if are you hearing it for the

23     first time, you surprise me.

24             So you have got to address those two objections.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As for the first objection, I replied

Page 9990

 1     that I read out the document to the witness because that was the way to

 2     familiarize him with it and also to enable the Trial Chamber to follow it

 3     on the transcript.

 4             And as for the second objection, whether this is a draft document

 5     or not, this can possibly pertain to the probative value of the document.

 6     But drafts of some decisions can also be evidence, for which there is --

 7     for which there are previous examples.

 8             So whether or not this is a draft is irrelevant for the probative

 9     value of the document.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are explaining why you read it.  You are not

11     answering why it should be admitted, if it has been read.  The

12     guide-lines says when the document has been read, there's no need to

13     admit it.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Then I didn't correctly

15     understand Mr. Saxon's objection, or yours.

16             I didn't read out the entire document, only two paragraphs, so

17     that's why I would like to tender the document, because I believe that

18     other paragraphs are also relevant and I didn't read them out, because

19     those parts of the document are self-explanatory.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If we mark it for identification, can you get the

21     approved document, not the draft?

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  This -- whether

23     subsequently a -- an official letter of the Ministry of the Defence was

24     produced based on this draft is a different matter.  But the very fact

25     that this draft was signed by somebody has a certain weight.  But whether

Page 9991

 1     or not this was indeed sent to the municipal -- to the municipality in

 2     Pljevlja really is of no interest to anybody here.

 3             I don't believe it is relevant for the procedure, whether this --

 4     the minister of defence actually sent a letter to the president of

 5     Pljevlja municipality.  But what we are interested in is the contents of

 6     the document, as it speaks about the border belt and related issues.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  True, Mr. Lukic.  And there is nothing in the

 8     objection that refers to this document being sent to the municipality

 9     of -- whatever this town is called.

10             The objection is that this is a draft.  It is not known whether

11     this is an official document of the department that claims to have

12     produced it because it is still in -- in a draft form.  Whether or not it

13     was sent is immaterial.  And that was the objection that you've got to

14     address and tell us why, notwithstanding the fact that it is in draft

15     form, it has got to be exhibited.  That it is signed is neither here nor

16     there, if it is a draft.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I put a question to the witness

18     in order to clarify?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you can, yeah, go ahead [Microphone not

20     activated].

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the first page of the

22     document?  In B/C/S, please.

23        Q.   Mr. Simic, I'm going to read to you what it says.  It says:

24             "The engagement of the VJ in providing security for the border

25     belt in order to secure peace and order for the municipality of

Page 9992

 1     Pljevlja."  Submitted to the office of the minister of defence.

 2             Could you please comment?  Is this just a draft of the proposal

 3     or is it a draft that was signed by the chief of the office of the

 4     Ministry of Defence for their further action, to be taken by them?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you are going to ask -- well, Mr. Saxon.

 6             MR. SAXON:  I object to the leading nature of that question,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't think I was leading.

10        Q.   Is this an official document stamped and duly recorded?

11        A.   With the Trial Chamber's permission, I would provide a somewhat

12     lengthier answer.  The --

13        Q.   Could you please just answer the specific question before that.

14        A.   Will you allow me, Your Honours?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No.  Your lawyer says please answer the specific

16     question before you do that.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document was sent on the part

18     of the General Staff to the Ministry of Defence.  The implementation or

19     the solution to those problems was not within the authority of the Chief

20     of General Staff and that's why it was referred for further proceedings

21     to the Ministry of Defence.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Is this an official document?

24        A.   Absolutely.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it practice, sir, in this department to send

Page 9993

 1     official documents in draft form?  It says -- your lawyer read something

 2     to you but didn't read this part, which is written in capital letters,

 3     which says:  "Draft reply."

 4             It's not a reply; it's a draft.  Is that how you send out

 5     documents, as drafts?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Really?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission I can explain.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But we've been seeing documents here that you've

10     been testifying to, they're not written "draft."  This is the first one

11     that is written "draft."

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission, Your Honours,

13     I can explain.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I interfere, please?  I can see

15     that we are facing a problem and the problem arises from the English

16     interpretation or translation, rather.  I would like to go over --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The problem arises from the fact that, instead of

18     responding to an objection, you asked to ask a question.  Now we're

19     getting involved in talking to a witness instead of you responding to an

20     objection.  That's the problem.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I read what is stated

22     in the heading to the witness and then I look at the English version, you

23     are basing your questions and Mr. Saxon is basing his objections to

24     the -- on the English version, and I believe that the whole problem

25     arises from that.

Page 9994

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... we can't read

 2     the B/C/S.  [Overlapping speakers] ... that's why you've got it here for

 3     us to read.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I appreciate that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I read for the transcript and I

 7     believe that the interpreters have interpreted what I have read.  I will

 8     read it once again.

 9             I would kindly ask the interpreters and I'm sure that they

10     appreciate what the problem is.  The title reads:

11             "The engagement of the Army of Yugoslavia in providing security

12     for the border in order to provide peace and security of the citizens of

13     Pljevlja municipality.  Draft proposal to be sent to."

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Rather, draft reply, the interpreter's

15     correction.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well?  Isn't that what the English says?

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I think that we have a

18     bit of a confusion here.  I'm not blaming the interpreters but --

19        Q.   Can you please explain, Mr. Simic.

20        A.   Your Honours, since the Ministry of Defence was not authorised to

21     provide security for the state border, the municipal assembly of Pljevlja

22     faced certain problems and turned to the minister of defence.  Before

23     that, the minister of defence turned to the Chief of General Staff for

24     his opinion about the problem.  And if you look at the document, you can

25     see that we defined what the responsibility of the army was and how far

Page 9995

 1     did that responsibility reach.  And as for the other problems put forth

 2     by the Municipal Assembly of Pljevlja, we told them that the body

 3     responsible was the Ministry of the Interior and its organs, in that

 4     municipality.  And that is why there is an annex to that letter,

 5     entitled:  A proposal for a possible reply which contained our

 6     responsibility.  There was no organ or body within the ministry that

 7     would have been in charge of the state borders.  And here, the problems

 8     that the municipality of Pljevlja was facing, as represented by the

 9     Municipal Assembly, and they believed that the army could help them.

10     That's why we submitted our proposal.  It was not requested from us to

11     provide a final response.

12        Q.   One more subquestion.  This document of yours, is this a draft or

13     is this a final document which somebody else had to copy and formulate?

14        A.   For us, as the General Staff, this was a final version of that

15     document.  And for the person who had to draft their document for the

16     Municipal Assembly, that was just a proposal.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence, marked for

18     identification, until you give us a correct translation of the document.

19     If is a draft proposal and not a draft reply, you will have to give us a

20     correct interpretation of the document.

21             May it please be given an exhibit number and marked for

22     identification.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm grateful.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

25     Exhibit D204, marked for identification.  Thank you.

Page 9996

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             The next document that I would like to look at with the witness

 4     is 0 -- 65 ter 00891D, from the same batch and dealing with the same

 5     topic.

 6             But before I look at this document, I would like to talk about

 7     another period.

 8        Q.   Do you know that at one point the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

 9     introduced sanctions in respect of Republika Srpska?  Do you know when

10     that was and what were the sanctions about?  If you know.

11        A.   As far as I can remember, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

12     introduced sanction in respect of Republika Srpska and that was sometime

13     in August 1994.  And the sanctions applied to the interruption of all

14     flows of goods with the exception of humanitarian aid.

15        Q.   Do you know if the Army of Yugoslavia honoured the decision of

16     the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia concerning the

17     sanctions?

18        A.   Yes, fully.

19        Q.   Let's look at a document.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And could the witness please be

21     provided with a hard copy of the document and the others can follow the

22     English version on the screen.

23        Q.   Tell me, General, who is Gojko Knezevic?  Do you know?  Does the

24     name ring a bell?

25        A.   Of course.  He was my most immediate associate.  Gojko Knezevic

Page 9997

 1     was a colonel, and he was the chief of the 3rd department or the

 2     department in charge of operative and general planning in the

 3     1st Administration.

 4        Q.   We already discussed the document, to two of us, during your

 5     preparations.  Could you please tell us a few words about the contents of

 6     the document.  The document was issue in the November 1994 and was

 7     prompted by something that happened in that month.  What was that and

 8     what was the connection between your administration and the activities

 9     described herein?

10        A.   This is a document -- or, rather, an order ordering the control

11     and securing the state border facing Republika Srpska in the area of

12     responsibility of the 1st and 2nd Armies.  The intention behind the

13     document was to implement the sanctions, and since this was a newly

14     established state border, we wanted to take stock of all problems, and

15     the priority was given to the work of state border security organs and

16     how they implemented the measures introduced by the federal government

17     with regard to the sanctions.  And this here is a report from one of the

18     controls, pointing to some of the problems that I myself had pointed out

19     when I was speaking in general terms as to what problems we were facing

20     with regard to the newly established state borders.

21             And you can also see from this document how the army and troops

22     carried out their tasks.  You can see that there were some shortcomings

23     and omissions that would be removed in the future period.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be given

25     an exhibit number.

Page 9998

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 4     Exhibit D205.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now, could the Court please

 7     produce -- just a moment, please.  Bear with me.  65 ter 00881D.  We have

 8     a hard copy for the witness, for Mr. Simic.

 9             Could he please be provided with the hard copy?

10        Q.   First tell us, please, who the signatory of the document was.

11        A.   The document was signed by the Deputy Chief of General Staff,

12     General Blagoje Kovacevic.  And the document deals with the development

13     of the system of security of the state border and attempts to remove our

14     subjective problems.  In a nutshell, it was about dealing with problems

15     with the structures of society on the ground, and in this letter he

16     defined the tasks, he -- and he also defined the deadlines.

17        Q.   What I would like to draw your attention to in this document is

18     the title and the preamble.  What territory and what state border does

19     this document refer to and highlights?

20        A.   This document refers to the border facing Republika Srpska.

21        Q.   And the meaning of the order can be found in the preamble.

22             For the purpose of eliminating weaknesses and securing the border

23     more efficiently, especially with Republika Srpska, the order is issued

24     and measures requested.

25             Isn't that correct?

Page 9999

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this document also be admitted,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 5             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, my learned colleague Mr. Lukic has not

 6     established any relationship between the witness and this document.

 7     Mr. Lukic just read the first -- what is stated on the first line.  He

 8     has had the witness confirm what is in the document.  But there has been

 9     no relationship established between this witness and this document.

10     According to the guide-lines, then it should not be admitted.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just respond.

13             I believe that I did establish sufficient link between the

14     witness and the document, because the witness has already spoken about

15     the significance of state borders.  I don't intend to testify.  I don't

16     want to mention other things that are visible in the document which are

17     so closely linked to the witness.  I don't see the need to continue

18     exploring the document further, but if you wish me to do so, I can do

19     that.

20             However, from what -- from all that we heard about the

21     authorities of the witness, about his administration, I believe that this

22     document is so self-evident that there is it absolutely no need to put

23     any additional questions, in order to establish a -- a -- a link between

24     the witness and the document.

25             And my answer, in a nutshell, is simple.  I believe that I did

Page 10000

 1     establish a good enough link between the document and the witness.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you show us on the transcript where you

 3     established the link, Mr. Lukic, please?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I asked him who the signatory of the

 5     document was, and he replied --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Show us on the transcript where you asked that

 7     question.

 8             Page -- page -- page 82, line 12.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 82.  And ...

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He is telling us about the signatory, yes, but

11     does that tell us about the link between himself and the document, if I

12     must go to the objection by your learned friend?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we saw from his

14     earlier evidence that there is a sufficient link between the witness and

15     the document, because the witness recognised the signature of his

16     superior, and according to the standards of -- of evidence, I believe I

17     have established a sufficient link.

18             I don't think that we need to establish whether the witness is

19     familiar with the document but merely set up a relationship between the

20     witness and the document, which I believe we have explicitly done.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You say the witness told us it was signed by his

22     superior.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I previously asked him in the

24     previous session about whether or not Mr. Kovacevic was his superior.  In

25     the previous session, when I asked about the chief of that sector, and

Page 10001

 1     the witness replied that it was Mr. Kovacevic.  I had hoped that

 2     everybody in the courtroom would have remembered.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I may add, what the witness said

 5     about problems also can be seen in the documents, so that the witness is

 6     familiar with the subject matter of the document and that is the problems

 7     related to border control.

 8             MR. SAXON:  But I think what Mr. Lukic just said is really

 9     testimony, Your Honour, because it didn't come out of the mouth of this

10     witness with respect to this document.  And quite frankly, if confirming

11     that a particular person has signed a document which everyone can see is

12     the test for a relationship, then I submit that's a pretty low test

13     indeed, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, Mr. Lukic is also saying that Mr. Kovacevic

15     was the witness's superior, and he recognises the signature of his

16     superior, it comes from the same department, and he is familiar also with

17     the contents.  This witness is -- is that what you said he was testifying

18     about?

19             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I beg out on that one, then.

21             Mr. Lukic, apparently are you testifying about the knowledge that

22     this witness has about the contents of the document.  Apparently the

23     witness has not said so himself.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I did not, Your Honours.  We can go

25     back to that.

Page 10002

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can go back to page 82, line 12.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 82, yes.  And what follows is

 3     the witness's reply where he described everything, and I merely repeated

 4     the witness's words.  Between lines 13 and 18, the witness gave evidence

 5     about these issues.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have anything to say on that one?

 7             MR. SAXON:  Nothing further, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you still stand on your objection,

 9     notwithstanding that?

10             MR. SAXON:  I will withdraw that objection, Your Honour.  I've

11     been corrected by Mr. Lukic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  The document is admitted into evidence.

13     May it please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

15     Exhibit D206.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Simic, take a look at yet another document that deals with

20     the same topic as the 65 ter document 00882D.  I will also provide a hard

21     copy for you.

22             General, can you tell us whose document this is?  Do you

23     recognise the signatory?

24        A.   This is a document of the General Staff of the VJ, signed by the

25     Chief of the General Staff, General Momcilo Perisic.

Page 10003

 1        Q.   We can see a stamp that it was recorded.  Where was -- what was

 2     the route of this document before it reached the Chief of General Staff?

 3        A.   Since securing the state border is within the purview of the

 4     1st Administration, this document was drafted in the 1st Administration.

 5        Q.   I will merely read out item 1 of this letter, and I'll ask you to

 6     comment on it.

 7             It was sent to the commands of the 1st and 2nd Army, and to the

 8     navy command.  Item 1 says:

 9             "Fully implement all orders of the Chief of Staff of the VJ on

10     securing the state border towards the Republic of Croatia and the

11     Republika Srpska, and prevent any individuals from crossing the state

12     border outside border crossings.  This applies, in particular, to the

13     border in the zone of responsibility of the 2nd Army and of the navy."

14             Could you please comment on this paragraph.

15        A.   The Chief of General Staff, here again, stresses the importance

16     of securing the state border in the complex circumstances that prevailed

17     then, especially in areas where the configuration of terrain was

18     demanding.  There was a part of our border with Croatia in -- around

19     Herceg-Novi and --

20        Q.   That -- that's the navy?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And what is the zone of responsibility of the 2nd Army?

23        A.   The border with Republika Srpska up to north of Pljevlja.  At

24     Pljevlja there was the 1st Border Battalion, or, rather, there was the

25     7th Border Battalion, but it was the first unit -- the unit closest to

Page 10004

 1     the zone of responsibility of the 1st Army, if we look southward.

 2        Q.   "If there are border crossings in the zone of responsibility

 3     that are not manned by MUP employees, warn the MUP of their obligation

 4     and insist that they fulfill it immediately."

 5             Is that in line with what you said earlier, that the MUP was --

 6     had responsibility for border crossings?

 7        A.   Yes, absolutely.  But in these complex circumstances, when there

 8     were no border posts or defined crossings and when these crossings were

 9     not adequately manned, there were some problems.

10             The Chief of General Staff, bearing in mind the decisions taken

11     by the highest state authorities about imposing sanctions, wanted to warn

12     his subordinates once more of the seriousness of their tasks.

13        Q.   General, we will speak about the operative centre later and the

14     Trial Chamber will be acquainted with border-related reports.

15             But let me ask you a general question now.  Have you heard of

16     members of the VJ misusing the regime prevalent in the -- along the

17     border?  It had to do with the responsibility of the border services.

18        A.   I have no knowledge of any organs of the border service of the --

19     of VJ as not carrying out their duties in full compliance with orders and

20     instructions received from the highest authorities.  I cannot rule out,

21     however, that there may have been individual violations of the

22     border-line from either side, because, as I have explained, they were

23     controlled by organs that were a kilometre, or two, or five away from

24     each other.  So they were in a position to watch, have visual control,

25     patrol the border, et cetera, but it may have happened that somebody

Page 10005

 1     crossed the border, nonetheless.

 2             However, generally speaking, we fully implemented the decisions

 3     of the highest authorities systemically.

 4        Q.   When you say "systemically," what was the position of

 5     General Perisic with regard to the border service?

 6        A.   General Perisic, at that time, gave special attention to the

 7     securing of the border with the former republics of Yugoslavia.

 8             There were two aspects to that:  That we were not to act in

 9     contravention of the orders of the supreme commander; and, secondly, we

10     should -- we should not allow for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to

11     be threatened by any activities that may be taking place on the other

12     side of the border.

13        Q.   What kind of activities were they?

14        A.   If, in the immediate vicinity, combat activities were going on,

15     armed groups, or paramilitary formations, or army or military units could

16     cross the border and commit some acts.  That is why the Chief of

17     General Staff wanted to prevent any major excesses that could

18     detrimentally affect our safety and security.  And, in that context, the

19     border service were the first ones to monitor not only our territory but

20     also what was going on across the border, and they would report on

21     everything they observed which was relevant for the security of

22     Yugoslavia.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document into

24     evidence, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

Page 10006

 1     please be given an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be

 3     assigned Exhibit D207.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I now wish to board a completely

 7     different topic so this may be a convenient time for us to adjourn.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will take an adjournment.  And, sir, before we

 9     adjourn, I must warn you that as you have now taken the witness-stand,

10     you may not discuss the case with anybody, in particular, not with your

11     lawyers, okay, until you have finished testifying.

12             You must come back tomorrow, in the afternoon, at quarter past

13     2.00, in the same courtroom, Courtroom II.

14             Court adjourned until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.

15                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of

17                           February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.