1 Thursday, 25 February 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. Mr. Registrar -- Madam Registrar, will you please call the
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have the appearances
12 for the day starting with the Prosecution.
13 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dan Saxon, Mark
14 Harmon, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon. And for the
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
18 afternoon to everyone participating in the proceedings. Mr. Perisic is
19 represented today in the courtroom by Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, and
20 our assistant Boris Zorko.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. Just for the
22 record, to note that the Chamber is still sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis
23 in Judge Picard's absence.
24 And good afternoon to you, Mr. Simic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and
1 good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Simic. And, Mr. Simic,
3 once again to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration you
4 made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole
5 truth, and nothing else but the truth.
6 Mr. Lukic, sometime in the middle of yesterday's you had already
7 used some five hours 20 minutes, and I am not quite sure how much you
8 have used up to now. Are you still going to be long?
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am going to tell you shortly, Your
10 Honours. I know how much time we have envisaged for this witness.
11 Actually, I would like to curtail the testimony of some other witnesses
12 by virtue of this witness. Primarily by going through certain documents
13 today we are considerably going to shorten another evidence and hopefully
14 I will be finished by the end of the first session today.
15 WITNESS: MIODRAG SIMIC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
18 Q. [Interpretation] General, good afternoon.
19 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have given the documents to the OTP
21 for them to review these documents. The documents that I'm going to look
22 together with Mr. Simic today which will expedite the proceedings. We
23 have given the binder in the B/C/S to the OTP but please can we have it
24 back to the witness. We are going to follow the order of the documents,
25 and this is the first one. Actually, we didn't manage to upload it
1 because we have only received the translation today, and because of that,
2 I have hard copies for all parties concerned. It will probably be
3 uploaded in the course of today and then we shall have it in e-court.
4 All the other documents already have their English translations and are
5 in e-court.
6 Q. General, we are going to continue with what we started yesterday.
7 We are going to go through a number of documents relating to the work of
8 the operations centre in certain relevant periods of times, and I will
9 ask you some questions. The first document that I would like to show
10 you, but for the time being we shall only see the B/C/S version on the
11 screen, that's 65 ter 01254D.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this the one which you have just given us the
13 hard copy of?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That's a report of the second
15 administration of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army strictly
16 confidential 189 of 9th July, 1995
17 Q. I am going to read only one portion which is going to be related
18 to the next document. So if you look at this passage in the middle where
19 units of the 1st Corps are being mentioned, General, can you tell us
20 something about this which reads:
21 "Units of the first K and parts of the 3rd, 2nd, and 7th KMV"
22 et cetera. What does that mean?
23 A. Units of the 1st Corps and elements of the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th
24 Corps of the Muslim army continue preparation for the continuation of
25 offensive activities aimed at lifting the blockade of the Muslim quarter
1 of Sarajevo
2 Q. Thank you. Can you please read the last sentence in this same
3 passage. It starts with "units."
4 A. "Units of the 28th Division from Srebrenica opened fire from the
5 protected area with the support of the Dutch Battalion and they also used
6 APCs of the Ukrainian battalion stationed in Zepa."
7 Q. Let us just remind ourselves that these are intelligence reports
8 based on which the operations centre produces its own report.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would tender this document into
10 evidence but pending the English translation it will only going to be
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document is admitted into evidence. Marked for
13 identification. May it please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00216 marked
15 for identification.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We see that this document was dated
18 9th of July, 1995, and this is important for our next document which is
19 65 ter -- Prosecution, excuse me, Defence Exhibit 00490D.
20 Q. What we are looking at is a daily operations report from your
21 centre dated the 10th of July, 1995. Can you tell me which period is
22 covered in this report?
23 A. Yesterday, I said that daily operations reports covered 24 hours
24 starting from 0600 hours on the previous day until 0600 hours of the
25 current day.
1 Q. So this would be for the 9th of July?
2 A. This is the daily operations report recorded on the 10th because
3 it was completed during that night, a new day started, and that is when
4 it was logged in the operations centre, but it refers to the period of
5 daylight and the night of the 10th of July.
6 Q. Can you please now look at paragraph 3, particularly its last
7 part. This sentence --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does it relate to the night of the 10th of July or
9 the night of the 9th of July?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This refers to half of the night of
11 the 10th from zero hundred hours until 2400 hours, which means from 6.00
12 in the morning on the 9th until 6.00 in the morning on the 10th.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. We have read this sentence in the previous document, and now I am
16 going to ask you if this sentence contained in the operations report, has
17 it actually been copied or just slightly modified from that previous
19 A. I provided a detailed explanation yesterday of the methodology of
20 drafting reports, and when the shift meets at 2100 hours with duty
21 officers from intelligence and operations administration, they extract
22 from that report only those most relevant elements for the Chief of Staff
23 and you can see this same sentence here saying that units from the 28th
24 Division of Srebrenica opened fire from the protected area with the
25 support of the Dutch Battalion and used the APCs of the Ukrainian
1 Battalion stationed in Zepa.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Simic, once again, we would like to finish
3 quickly so can you just listen to the question really and just focus in
4 answering the question. Don't tell us what you told us yesterday, just
5 say if the question was is this sentence mentioned here or just modified
6 slightly, if it's yes, say yes, no, no. Then we can move on. Okay.
7 Thank you, sir. I am sure you'd like to go home quickly too.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honours.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. One more comment on this document, under item situation on the
11 state border it is mentioned that the UN monitoring mission visited
12 Zalvjne [phoen] border post of the 15th Battalion Bajina Basta and that
13 there were no remarks. If the UN monitors had remarks, would those
14 remarks be included in the report that was to be sent to the General
16 A. By all means.
17 Q. One more question relating to your testimony yesterday and the
18 day before yesterday, you mentioned border battalions in Bajina Basta
19 being part of the 1st Army. To whom was the Uzice Corps of the Yugoslav
20 Army subordinated?
21 A. In the Drina
22 Border Battalion, 16th Battalion in Loznica and Bajina Basta. This is
23 the line between areas of responsibility of the 1st and 2nd Army. The
24 Battalion in Bajina Basta belonged to the Uzice Corps, and the Uzice
25 Corps was part of the 2nd Army of Podgorica.
1 Q. Have you ever heard of Rumenko?
2 A. General Rumenko Disovic was for a time --
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have exhibit number for
4 this document.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. Yes,
6 Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: I don't object to the tendering of the document, just
8 we are still waiting for an answer to the question.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It wasn't recorded precisely. I
10 maybe put the interpreters in an awkward situation. If you can please
11 repeat what you said about General Disovic.
12 A. In this period General Disovic was commander of the Uzice Corps.
13 I can't tell you the exact dates from to.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted
15 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00217.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document that I would like
19 the witness to see as well as the Chamber is 65 ter, Defence Exhibit
20 00682D. It's an intelligence report of 10th July, 1995.
21 Q. Was this report also submitted to your operations centre?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no questions relating to this
24 document, Your Honours. I just would like to tender this document into
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00218.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document is also from the
5 same group, 65 ter 00860D.
6 Q. I hope, General, that you have the documents in the right order,
7 the way that I've been referring to them. This is an intelligence report
8 compiled on the 11th of July, 1995. Again it's a document of the second
9 administration. I would like to ask you for your comment on the last
10 paragraph on the first page, General. Just a moment, please, let me have
11 a look. The English version.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It must be on the second
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have the second page
15 in English. Yes.
16 Q. Could we please have your comments with regard to this
17 information. Was it noteworthy in terms of this report of the operations
18 centre, namely the Dutch aircraft to the south of Srebrenica?
19 A. Most certainly, yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document as
21 well, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
23 an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00219.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document that I would like
1 you to have a look at is 65 ter 00683D.
2 Q. It is an intelligence report, also of the second administration
3 dated the 12th of July, 1995, and I'd like to dwell on this document a
4 bit longer. As far as I can see, if we look at these intelligence
5 reports if they are sent to the operations centre, well, whose forces are
6 you interested in describing, whose activities in the reports of the
7 operations centre? Are you interested in the activities of the BH Army,
8 the Muslim army, or the Army of Republika Srpska? What is primarily the
9 function of what is contained in the reports of the operations centre?
10 A. The intelligence report is a report of the operations
11 administration, and it follows the other side, the adversary.
12 Q. In the first two paragraphs we see that there's a detailed
13 description of the units of the BH Army and in the third sentence it
15 "During the morning of the 12th of July, 1995, units of the Drina
16 Corps of the VRS entered Potocari."
17 Isn't that right? And then there is further information about
18 the Croatian army. This report of the 12th of July of the second
19 administration, when was it processed in your daily operations report?
20 A. It should have been processed in the daily operations report of
21 the 13th.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First of all, could we please get a
23 number for this document.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
25 an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00220.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now the next document that I would
3 like to show is document that is marked 65 ter 00491D.
4 Q. This is now a report of the first administration, the operations
5 centre. The date is the 13th of July, 1995. General, I'm glad that you
6 have both documents in front of you so that you can compare them. In the
7 first part there is a reference to the activities of the armed forces of
8 neighbouring countries. Is there anything that was not included and
9 where the report of the operations centre does not coincide with what the
10 intelligence report says?
11 A. For the most part, the content is there, although it may have
12 been worded differently in the daily operations report because that is a
13 result of the sublimation of the material involved.
14 Q. The sentence we read out a few moments ago from the intelligence
15 report and the third paragraph, namely:
16 "During the morning of the 12th of July, 1995 the units of the
17 Drina Corps entered the village of Potocari
18 I do not see that in the daily operations report, right? All the
19 rest is identical.
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry if this was a leading
22 question, but I thought that the content of the document cannot really be
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that means that the
25 document is processed in terms of what is important for the Chief of
1 General Staff to know and what is not.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Very well. Could I please have your comments, we don't need to
4 read it out loud, but could you give us your comments on the first two
5 paragraphs of the second section, the situation at the state border.
6 Could we just hear your comments because the activities of the monitoring
7 mission are mentioned.
8 A. The monitoring mission observed the border and the situation at
9 the border and also the observance of the border regime. We see here
10 that they inspected a bridge that had been taken out and that was not
11 being used.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all microphones
13 please be switched off when the witness is speaking. Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you remember whether this was an every-day activity?
16 A. I cannot say that it was an every-day activity, but it was
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have this document
19 admitted into evidence, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00221.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, the interpreters request that when the
24 witness is speaking, all other microphones be switched off, so if you
25 would please remember that.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Certainly. Could we now please have
2 a look at the next document, and that is 65 ter 00690D. It's a Defence
4 Q. This is an intelligence report of the second administration dated
5 the 13th of July, 1995. And I would like you to have a look at the first
6 paragraph, General. Because of the relevance of the documents that are
7 yet to come, I'm going to read it out loud.
8 The first paragraph reads as follows:
9 "Units of the Army of Republika Srpska have routed the 28th PD" -
10 I assume it's infantry division - "of the Muslim army from Srebrenica.
11 In this area, the M/V forces," probably the Muslim army forces, "are no
12 longer putting up an organised defence. The routed elements of the 28th
13 infantry division (5.000 to 6.000 men) made during the night of the 12th
14 and 13th of July an unsuccessful element to break through in the
15 direction of Kladanj and Tuzla
16 sector of Kamenica and the village of Siljkovici
17 ultimatum to surrender. In the fighting so far, about 500 members of the
18 M/V, Muslim army, have been taken prisoner. From the Srebrenica area, so
19 far about 50 per cent of the Muslim residents have been evacuated. The
20 evacuation of the remaining residents is impeded by shortage of
22 General, for you at the operations centre, was the movement of
23 the 28th Division of the Muslim army an important military movement at
24 the time?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Why?
2 A. We know that Zepa is near the border, sorry not Zepa, Srebrenica,
3 I do apologise. It is near the border with the Federal Republic
5 withdrawal and during their attempted break-through, part of them could
6 have headed across the border towards the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
7 Therefore, it was important to take measures of heightened security along
8 the state border so that such armed persons would not cross the border,
9 or rather, even if they were to cross the border, that we act in
10 accordance with the border service rules.
11 Q. And what is the border service rule, if such persons cross the
12 border of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
13 A. I explained yesterday that in the border belt that is the capture
14 and surrender of these persons, the disarming, and their hand over to the
15 organs of the Ministry of the Interior. At that point our authority over
16 those persons ends.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could I please tender
18 this document into evidence, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00222.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So that was the report of the 13th of
23 July. Could we now look at Defence document 65 ter 00492D.
24 Q. You are going to have the report of the operations centre of the
25 first administration from the next day, the 14th of July, 1995. I don't
1 want to read it, but I'm just going to ask you whether the third
2 paragraph in your daily operations report which corresponds to the third
3 paragraph of the English version, does it faithfully reflect what we read
4 out a few moments ago from the intelligence report on this particular
5 topic, if I can put it that way?
6 A. In view of the importance of the information involved, this was
7 fully reflected in the daily operations report for the 14th of July,
9 Q. I am going to ask you for another brief comment. Actually, we
10 don't really need to deal with it now. I was thinking of a comment
11 regarding the state border, but it's actually similar to what we've
12 already heard. Or actually, let it not appear that I'm trying to skip
13 something. Your comment regarding the monitoring mission, it says here
14 what they were supposed to do.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is section number
16 2 of this document. Situation on the state border. The first paragraph.
17 Q. I don't want to read it, I'd just like to hear the witness's
19 A. What can be seen here is that the members of the monitoring
20 mission were allowed to enter the border belt and to monitor the regime
21 along the border. And what is written here is what they actually did,
22 what they observed. Also, there were no violations of the border regime.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have a number for this
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00223.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please now have Defence
6 document 00691D.
7 Q. This is an intelligence report now dated the 14th of July, 1995
8 I would like to draw your attention, Mr. Simic, to a particular paragraph
9 that is towards the end, Your Honours. The last two paragraphs in the
10 English version, I don't really need to have to read out into the
11 transcript. But could you please give us your comment. It has do with
12 two particular pieces of information received by the intelligence
14 A. Yes. And it also says that the crushed parts of the 28th
15 Division are continuing towards Kladanj and Tuzla and they are trying to
16 get out of --
17 Q. The term used is they are trying to avoid being destroyed by the
18 VRS. Is that customary usage, this particular word in military
20 A. Yes, absolutely. And one more thing should be added, that is
21 what happens if they are asked to surrender and they put up resistance
22 rather than surrender.
23 Q. We also have some information on Zepa here. That was an
24 ultimatum that was not honoured, and then the offensive against Zepa
25 started. Was this an information that was important for being entered
1 into your operations report?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We could not hear the
3 answer at all.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have a number for this
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter said they could not hear the
7 answer at all, so we don't have it interpreted.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. I'll repeat the question, General. Was this information
10 customarily used in military terminology, destroying enemy units?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The document is admitted into
13 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON: I'm not objecting to the admission of the document,
17 but Mr. Lukic actually asked for an answer to a question that had been
18 answered. The question that was not answered is at line -- begins at
19 line 17 of page 15 of the LiveNote.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may have a minute, please.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Just to be sure what you are talking about,
22 Mr. Saxon, line 17 is the middle of an answer which starts at line 16 on
23 my screen yes, yes, absolutely, and one more thing should be added, that
24 is, what happens if they are asked to surrender and they put up
25 resistance rather than surrender.
1 MR. SAXON: I beg the Court's pardon, Your Honour, the question
2 is on page 15, lines 21 to 22:
3 "Was this an information that was important for being entered
4 into your operations report?" Then the interpreter says, "We could not
5 hear the answer at all."
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, okay.
7 MR. SAXON: I don't believe that question --
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, now I've found it.
9 Q. My question referred to Zepa, and I asked about this piece of
10 information relating to Zepa and, please, General, repeat your answer.
11 What is written here in relation to an offensive on Zepa, was that a
12 piece of information deemed important enough to be entered into the
13 report of the operations centre?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Have we given it a number? May it
16 please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00224.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter Defence
20 document 00493D.
21 Q. That's an intelligence report of the first administration
22 operations centre of the 15th of July. General, please focus on the
23 middle part where it says, The broken up parts, et cetera. I'm not going
24 to read it. But what is written here by the operations centre completely
25 corresponds to what we read a minute ago in the report from the second
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document
5 into evidence, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00225.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have on our screens
11 00692D, Defence document. That's a report produced by the second
12 administration on the 15th of July, 1995.
13 Q. I'm going to read out only paragraph 3, which reads:
14 "Elements of the units of the 2nd Corps." General I'm reading
15 full names and you correct me if these abbreviations do not correspond to
16 the expansions. "(254th and 255th Brigade) mounted unsuccessful attacks
17 on mount Majevica
18 bring in routed elements of the 28th Division from Srebrenica who have
19 been trying to break out of the encirclement in the direction of Tuzla
20 Small elements of this division managed to get through to Zepa."
21 According to you was this information also necessary to be
22 included in the daily report?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I have a number for this document
25 as well, Your Honours, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
2 an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00226.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I now have document 65 ter
6 00494D. It's a Defence document.
7 Q. This is now a daily operations report for the 16th of July, 1995
8 covering the period stated beneath the title on the document. Tell me,
9 General, in this daily operations report, is the information that I read
10 to you from the intelligence report contained in this report as well, the
11 information relating to the 28th Division, et cetera?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you please comment on a different subject. Can you please
14 read it to yourself, and I will draw the attention of the Trial Chamber
15 what is stated in chapter 2 entitled "The situation at the state border."
16 So, General, please can we have your comment of this whole chapter? Or
17 actually, in the first and second paragraphs?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the chapter in the English version,
19 please, on the screen.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's probably page 2 in
21 English. It begins at the bottom of the first page and then goes on to
22 the second page. Can you please scroll down a bit more. Yes, that's it.
23 This is where it starts. And the next paragraph is on the next page. So
24 just give some time to the Judges to read it.
25 Q. General, can you comment this information about the situation at
1 the state border?
2 A. In a nutshell, it says here that members of the MUP captured two
3 members of the Muslim army with the weapons, and they passed on this
4 information to the border troops and that they had come in Mali Zvornik
5 which was in their area of responsibility.
6 Q. Also important to include in this daily report was this piece of
7 information about Resid Simonovic who got wounded and the intelligence
8 that he conveyed. You can see that at the beginning of page 2, and it
9 also relates to MUP activities. No, sorry, the army. This is the
10 intelligence obtained by the border units. You don't have to read all of
12 A. They captured Resid Simonovic --
13 Q. You don't have to read it. So it was the border units who
14 obtained this intelligence?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please switch off the
17 microphone while the witness is speaking.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a number for this
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we give it a number, the interpreters once
21 again ask that you switch off your microphone when the witness is
22 speaking. May we please have a number for this document. It is admitted
23 into evidence.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00227.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have on our
2 screens document 65 ter 00693D.
4 16th of July, 1995. It's a Defence document. Towards the bottom of page
5 1, we can see the paragraph which begins with "forces of the 2nd Corps."
6 I'm particularly interested in this paragraph, and it reads:
7 "Forces of the 2nd Corps of the Muslim army are continuing
8 without success to lift the blockade of the forces of the 28th Division
9 who were routed in the Srebrenica enclave and are encircled in the
10 general area of Zvornik."
11 Was this piece of information in view of the previous pieces of
12 information also important enough to be included in this entire report?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have a number for this
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
17 a number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00228.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document is Defence document
22 Q. An intelligence report of the second administration dated 17th of
23 July, 1995. I'm going to read paragraph 1 starting from the second
25 "Forces of the 2nd Corps of the ABH army carried out an attack of
1 lesser intensity in the area of the corridor and on several axes on mount
2 Majevica. In the area of Baljkovica and Memici, they managed to
3 penetrate the VRS defence and enable the pulling out of the routed forces
4 of the 28th Division from Srebrenica."
5 Is this information important enough to be included into an
6 operations report?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON: No need, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were you just tired of sitting down?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I tender this document into
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It's admitted. May it please be given
13 an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00229.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So that was the report of the 17th of
17 July. The next document is 00495D, 65 ter. That's a report of the
18 sector for operations of the General Staff. It's a daily operations
19 report dated 18th July, 1995
20 Q. Can you see in this document the sentence that I read out to you
21 from the previous report? Has it been inserted into this daily
22 operations report?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Entirely as we have read it? Yes?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. With respect to this daily operations report, I would like you to
2 comment regarding the situation at the state border, particularly
3 sentence 1. Does it correspond or is it consistent with what you
4 described to us taking place at the border?
5 A. Yes. We can see that two persons, armed persons were captured at
6 the border, and it says that he was going to be handed over to the MUP in
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I have a number for this
9 document, please, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. The document is admitted. May it please be
11 given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00230.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to skip the next document,
15 that is P2603. So there's no need for us to have a look at it. I'm
16 going to ask the witness to move on to the next document. That is a
17 report of the operations centre on the 19th of July, 1995. And the
18 document is marked 00496D.
19 Q. This document does not contain information about what we focused
20 on earlier on, but I'm going to put a general question to you. When
21 looking at this document, can other important actions be seen happening
22 in the area at the time, not only in the territory of Croatia
23 in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Could you please tell me in
24 general terms?
25 A. Yes, absolutely, and at other borders as well that intensified
1 activity can be seen.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Could we please have this
3 document admitted. I have no further questions of this witness with
4 regard to this document.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. It's admitted. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number.
7 Sorry, Mr. Harmon.
8 MR. HARMON: May I just clarify one previous testimony, it was in
9 respect of the document. I'm sorry, bear with me for just a minute. It
10 deals with the 65 ter 495, it's referred to on line -- page 22, line 13,
11 and I just am having difficulty locating it in particular document, a
12 reference that Mr. Lukic made. Page 23, line 1 where it says: "Yes, we
13 can see two person, armed persons were captured in the border." And it
14 says: "He was going to be handed over to the MUP in Loznica." And I was
15 wondering if he could refer me to where the reference is to armed persons
16 in that document. I'm just having difficulty locating it.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, you are probably going to have to
18 recall Exhibit D230.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, the document that is
20 Exhibit D230 now, 495 was its 65 ter number. It's on the first page in
21 B/C/S, and I believe that is the case in English too.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess --
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Situation at the state border --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Recall it on the screen, sir, so that Mr. Harmon
25 can see it.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have to go back to the previous
2 document, yes. D230, and could we please have the English version on the
3 screen as well. And do you see the situation at the state border?
4 [English] First paragraph, last sentence.
5 MR. HARMON: My concern is in the text of the transcript, maybe
6 it was not interpreted properly, but at page 23, line 1, it says: "We
7 can see two persons, armed persons, were captured at the border," and
8 that's what I read in the first paragraph is that there is some -- a
9 single person without weapons who was captured. So that's my confusion.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess it's in the next page, Mr. Lukic. I saw
11 something like -- somebody and the lieutenant, and the lieutenant had a
12 gun on him on the document. Can we go to the next page, please.
13 Mr. Lukic is not listening.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right. The next paragraph,
15 another person is being referred to. However, this second piece of
16 information does not pertain to the same border crossing. Therefore,
17 there will not be a mistake in the transcript. The witness mentioned two
18 persons and one had to do with one particular incident, and the other one
19 is a completely different incident at the Montenegrin border.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, sir, the important thing is that the
21 Prosecution wants to see that passage on the exhibit. They are asking to
22 be directed to the paragraph that relates to that story. I thought it
23 was on this page, but it is not.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I just have a look, please, at
25 the transcript, Your Honours, so that I can find the reference.
1 MR. HARMON: Page 23, line 1.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Simic, lest there be any misunderstanding, could you please
4 give us your comment in view of what the transcript says. We are talking
5 about this information on the situation at the state border. Which
6 incidents -- at which locations -- you don't have to describe them. We
7 just have to know exactly what the case is because there's bit of
9 A. "In the area of Banja Koviljaca a Muslim soldier was caught
10 Selimovic, Sead without any weapons. Borne --"
11 Q. You don't have to read it out.
12 A. "-- wearing civilian clothes. He denies that he was a member of
13 the armed forces, he was handed over to the organs of the Ministry of the
14 Interior of Loznica."
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Simic, please listen to your lawyer when he
16 talks to you. He says you don't have to read that. He wants you to
17 comment. Now you have read it to us, can you comment?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. The second piece of information in the next paragraph, what
20 location, what border crossing does that refer to?
21 A. It refers to the 10th Border Battalion, Ulcinj, if that's the
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether we've clarified
24 the matter now in view of the sentence that was originally recorded in
25 the transcript.
1 MR. HARMON: Well, I think it has been clarified because the
2 sentence at page 23, line 1, isn't reflected in the exhibit. So what the
3 general read was the first part of the situation at the state border that
4 refers to a single individual who was captured without weapons. So I
5 think if that's the reference that the general was relying upon when he
6 answered your question at -- in his answer at 23, then it has been
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] But at line 23 -- at page
9 23 he is talking of two persons but here it's one person.
10 MR. HARMON: That's correct.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I've seen on one of the exhibits where there's
12 mention of two persons, one of whom was a lieutenant and in whose
13 possession what gun was found.
14 MR. HARMON: I think that was one of the previous exhibits, Your
15 Honour, but it's not this particular exhibit.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not this particular.
17 MR. HARMON: No sir. In fact, I'll see if I can find it.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: For me this comment seems to be appropriate to
19 that piece of evidence.
20 MR. HARMON: Well, I read that --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The reference to two persons here at line 1, page
23 MR. HARMON: Well, it may well be. That's how the witness
24 interpreter it, Your Honour, but the way the questioning has been going
25 sequentially by document by document, at page 22, line 12, Mr. Lukic
1 started by referring to this particular document which is dated the 18th
2 of July, and he asked a series of quick questions relating to it. And he
3 says, with regard to this daily operations report, which was 65 ter 495
4 I'd like you to comment on the situation at the state border, and the
5 witness then gave an answer referring to two armed men who were captured.
6 And what I was having difficulty with was trying to locate that reference
7 in this particular document. I think the situation has been clarified at
8 this point. I think the witness is referring to the first paragraph
9 under the situation at the state border that refers to one unarmed
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Harmon. Did we give a
12 number to 00496D? May it please be given a number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00231.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, please. Could I just
16 have a look at the number, please. Now, 496, that's the 65 ter number.
17 That's the document that we've just given a number, right? Thank you.
18 Now we are looking at a Prosecution exhibit. [English] 2604.
19 [Interpretation] I would just like to inform my friends of the
20 Prosecution that 698 was our 65 ter number for this document as well.
21 Maybe we should point that out for them, but this is a Prosecution
22 exhibit now.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you are calling P2604?
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P2604.
25 Q. This is yet another intelligence report. The date is the 19th of
1 July, 1995
2 information contained in paragraph 2 concerning the Ukrainian Battalion
3 of UNPROFOR. In your view was this information also relevant for
4 inclusion in the daily operations report?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have a number --
7 sorry, sorry. It is a Prosecution exhibit already. My next document is
8 yet another Prosecution Exhibit, P32605. We also have it on our 65 ter
9 list, 699 is our number for it.
10 Q. I'd just like a brief comment from you, General. It has to do
11 with what we've been following all along. Towards the middle it says:
12 "The routed remains of the 28th Muslim division (Srebrenica) are
13 trying to get into the area of Kladanj and Tuzla in groups."
14 In your view is this information relevant?
15 A. I've lost continuity, Mr. Lukic, in terms of following the
16 numbers. 496D is the next document that I have.
17 Q. I see. Look at the second document after that dated the 20th of
18 July. Look at the dates and you can find your way more easily that way.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Around the middle of the page you will see the sentence that I
21 read out. "The routed remnants of the 28th Muslim division (Srebrenica)
22 are attempting to get through to the areas of Kladanj and Tuzla
23 groups." In your view, is this also relevant for inclusion in the
25 A. I cannot answer with an explicit yes because I don't have the
1 report of the 21st, the daily operations report of the 21st, so I cannot
2 see that. At any rate, it should be relevant.
3 Q. Yes, well, that's my question. If I had it, it would be easier
4 for me too.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at one more
6 document before the break.
7 Q. Please skip two documents, General. Look at the daily operations
8 centre report of 22nd of July, 1995. And the 65 ter number is 660D. Let
9 us just wait for the document to appear on the screen.
10 General, I would just be interested in your brief comment in
11 relation to the second section.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could it please be shown to the Court
13 as well. That is the situation on the state border. So it's probably
14 page 2 in the English version. And in the Serbian version as well.
15 Q. You see that the members of the mission have no objections, but
16 right in the middle it says:
17 "On the 21st of July, information was received from Ljubovija,
18 et cetera, and this gives specific information about a convoy."
19 Is that important information? Rather, I assume that -- oh, yes,
20 yes, this was my question. Sorry about that. This information was
21 received from the border battalion, right? I do beg your pardon.
22 A. This information was received from the report of the army
24 Q. In whose area of responsibility?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not an answer to the question, Mr. Simic.
2 The question is in whose area of responsibility?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is in the area of
4 responsibility of the command of the 1st Army.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not received directly from
7 the border people, but the --
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters didn't hear the end of your
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Lukic's microphone please be switched
13 off. There is a lot of background noise.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The report was not received from
15 the border people but from the report of the commander of the 1st Army in
16 whose area of responsibility that border unit is.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.
18 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would suggest that we take the
20 break now.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you deal with this 0060D?
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have it admitted into
23 evidence, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
25 given an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00232.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. We'll take a break and come back at
3 4.00. Court adjourned.
4 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] General, we are going to skip a
8 couple of documents and move to a report of the operations centre of 26th
9 August, 1995
10 Q. I would kindly ask you just to comment the first paragraph in
11 chapter 2, the situation at the state border.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's on the next page in English.
13 No, no. Yes. The first paragraph, Your Honours, on this page.
14 Q. I would just like to hear your comment on the first sentence in
15 this paragraph.
16 A. It has been noted here that organs of the state border service
17 have found a raft on the river. There were no persons on the raft, and
18 that they were -- they took it to the border post.
19 Q. Why did they do that? What was their duty in this particular
21 A. Since this was a means for illegal crossing the border, they did
22 it in order to prevent such kind of crossings and for that purpose they
23 took the raft to the border post.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a number for this
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
2 an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00233.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document from this group is
6 65 ter 662D.
7 Q. It's a report by the operations centre of the 30th of August
8 1995, and I'm particularly interested in paragraph 4. I'm going read the
9 first sentence.
10 "After the latest artillery attack on the centre of Sarajevo
11 situation in the former BH has become even more complicated. Because of
12 the allegedly obtained evidence that the Serbs are guilty of the massacre
13 of civilians, a decision was taken at the level of the commanders of NATO
14 for south Europe
15 launch aerial attacks on PVO systems, KM, command posts, weapons and
16 military equipment depots, and VP." I suppose this is military
18 A. This is firing positions.
19 Q. Firing positions of the VRS. Do you know what this information
20 refers to, and can you explain this particular part of the sentence which
21 reads "allegedly obtained evidence." Could you comment on this, please.
22 A. This intelligence was received from the intelligence service.
23 The word "allegedly" was used because they didn't know where this
24 information had come from, but it turns out that they already decided who
25 the culprit was and that they should be punished.
1 Q. Can you be more precise, please, in your answer. Who received
2 this information from whom about culpability, and who should punish whom?
3 Could you please be more specific?
4 A. This intelligence was received from the intelligence
5 administration through its intelligence organs. It was passed on here.
6 Those who were on the spot and on the ground where they collect this
7 intelligence from their operatives on the ground say that UNPROFOR and
8 NATO had accused the Serbs for committing this massacre in Sarajevo
9 that a decision had already been taken to launch strikes on Serbian
10 positions. Even more specifically, the positions of the Army of the
11 Republika Srpska.
12 Q. General, have you heard about the incident at the Markale
14 A. Yes. That was extensively covered by the media.
15 Q. Do you remember what reports were said in the media about who
16 caused this incident?
17 A. The print press mainly alleged that the Serbs were to blame for
18 this incident, and that it was caused by fire from mortars, and that the
19 result was a large number of civilians who were either killed or wounded
20 by this mortar shell.
21 Q. Did you find this information convincing at the time?
22 A. I personally didn't.
23 Q. Why?
24 A. The newspapers wrote about how these people got wounded. The
25 most wounded people suffered wounds in the lower extremities. However,
1 during disintegration, a mortar shell causes injuries in the upper part
2 of the body because it explodes in the form of a fan, and that would
3 effect only the people who were in close proximity to the place of
5 Q. Can you please look down in this document where it says "units of
6 the --"
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON: I didn't object at the time, and I know that we've
9 had a ruling from the Chamber that opinion evidence is permissible. It
10 had to do with General -- Mr. Starcevic and his evidence, if you recall,
11 Your Honour. That ruling said, if I'm recalling correctly, that as long
12 as its within the knowledge of the person who is testifying, and I'm just
13 raising this now because I haven't heard any foundation, for example,
14 that Mr. Simic is aware of how artillery works, how mortar shells work,
15 et cetera, et cetera.
17 now is something completely different. With Mr. Starcovic you decided
18 that he is allowed to give his expert opinion on certain subjects. I
19 asked Mr. Simic about his personal opinion that he had at the time based
20 on the information that he had irrespective his profession. He did
21 provide some additional information based on his military experience, and
22 he explained what kind of injuries are caused by a mortar shell, and this
23 was the basis for his answer. I think this is completely permissible. I
24 just asked him about what he thought at the time about the information
25 that he had available. I didn't seek his expert opinion.
1 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, it's my understanding that the
2 witness spent most of his career in planning. He was a planner. He
3 worked in --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are learned colleague says it's his personal
5 opinion he is seeking, not his professional opinion.
6 MR. SAXON: Then very well, Your Honour. I'll leave it at that.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. General, can you please just comment this because we are going to
10 deal with this as a last subject. The Croatian army is mentioned here in
11 the last paragraph, and, Your Honours, it is also the last paragraph in
12 the English. What does this information pertain to, and why is it
13 important for an operations report?
14 A. It says here that the third military district of the Croatian
15 army in Osjek despite the signed truth is in the process of intensive
16 preparations and provocations for an aggression against Baranja, Eastern
17 Slavonija and Western Srem, so it stems from that that an aggression
18 should be anticipated.
19 Q. Why is this territory important for the security of the Federal
20 Republic of Yugoslavia
21 A. Geographically speaking, this area is immediately next to the
22 border with the FRY and any deterioration of the situation in the area
23 will inevitably threaten the security of the Federal Republic
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have a number for this
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
3 an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00234.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at Defence
7 Exhibit D164. And this leads me to the last topic of my examination of
8 General Simic. You won't need this binder any longer, sir.
9 Q. While we were waiting for the document to be appear on the screen
10 tell me, have you heard of the 11th Corps of the Serbian army of Krajina,
11 and can you tell us how important it was in terms of the army of the
12 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and its border?
13 A. It was important because in the zone of the 11th Corps, the land
14 border with the Republic of Croatia
15 the province of Vojvodina
16 the east it borders with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
17 Q. Did this corps have any territorial links with other parts of the
18 Republic of Serbian
19 A. The 11th Corps was in an exceptionally disadvantageous strategic
20 position in the entire Serbian Army of Krajina.
21 Q. Just a second, General, I'm going to interrupt you. Please,
22 General, don't mark anything by yourself. I would just like to ask you
23 to circle the territory or the zone of responsibility of the 11th Corps,
24 but please wait. Yes, you can do it now. You have experience with this
25 gadget from the previous case, so please encircle the area of
1 responsibility of the 11th Corps.
2 A. One can clearly see it on the map, but I am not very good with
3 this implement.
4 Q. And on the right-hand side, can you please point the border of
5 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or mark it.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Very well. Please put number 1 next to it, or better still, 11,
8 which signify the 11th Corps.
9 A. [Marks]
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First, can we tender this document
11 into evidence before we lose the image, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
13 please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00235.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. One more question, General. In terms of territory, is it a
17 mountainous area, and to what extent is the type of terrain important for
19 A. This is mainly a plain criss-crossed by roads that can easily be
20 used by armoured forces, and they can easily and quickly reach the border
21 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Prosecution
23 document P1621 on our screens.
24 Q. And I'll try to provide a copy for you, General. That's
25 Prosecution document, and I would like to hear just a brief comment from
1 you. This is a document produced by the first administration of the
2 General Staff of the Yugoslav Army dated the 11th of August, 1994, and it
3 is addressed to the Main Staff of the RSK. I think you will have to look
4 at the screen after all.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is being advised that this
7 document is marked for identification pending a review by the Defence.
8 It is not yet admitted into evidence. I am rather taken aback.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are now going to contribute, but I
10 have to admit, I did think that it was a Prosecution exhibit, but we are
11 now make a contribution will lead to admitting this document into
12 evidence. We have a witness here who will probably confirm something
13 that is necessary in order to have the document explained.
14 Q. Mr. Simic, tell me, this is a document of your administration.
15 It was signed by Mr. Kovacevic, the head of sector. My question is: Why
16 is it important or is it important for the security of Yugoslavia to have
17 bridges at Bezdan secured, and why are we addressing the Main Staff of
18 the Serb army of Krajina because of that?
19 A. Through the intelligence administration information was received
20 that from the territory of Hungary
21 terrorist groups using the Danube
22 destroying the bridge at Bezdan and assassinations of certain persons in
23 the Novi Sad
24 that area. It is very important for the bridges not to be destroyed
25 because if there were to be an aggression, there would be no land
1 connection with the 11th Corps.
2 Q. Thank you. DTG
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence no longer
5 objects to this document and agrees to having it admitted because it's a
6 Prosecution exhibit.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. May the status of marked for
8 identification be removed from the document, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to give the general
10 another set of documents now. I'd like him to have them in front of him
11 so we can deal with them as quickly as possible. For the most part these
12 are Prosecution exhibits, and I would like to hear his comments about
13 these documents. May I please have on our screens document P2714.
14 Q. General, the document before you is dated the 5th of May, 1995
15 isn't that right? It's an order issued by General Perisic. It is the
16 first document. Do you have the right order in your binder?
17 A. P2175 is the first document I have.
18 Q. Is that General Perisic's order dated the 5th of May?
19 A. The documents are in the reverse order.
20 Q. But you have found it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. First, I'm going to ask you the following: The 5th
23 of May, 1995. Is the date this document bears. Do you remember what
24 happened around that time, the beginning of May 1995, and if you can
25 remember, can you tell us why it is relevance for the safety and security
1 of the FRY?
2 A. Relevant indeed. The attack on Western Slavonija and the
3 population being expelled from the area.
4 Q. In the second paragraph under number 2, it says:
5 "Immediately send an expert report," -- or rather -- "immediately
6 send POLO Battery 2 -- or 9p133 BRDM with men from the 12th MBRB to the
7 area of the bridge near Bezdan ready for crossing of the Danube
8 to the special order."
9 My question is the following: When we spoke of the duties of the
10 Chief of General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia the other day, when you
11 explained to us that the Chief of General Staff does not have a command
12 function in terms of the use of units, can you give us your comment in
13 respect of this order? Is this order within the scope of his authority
14 in terms of what you discussed the other day?
15 A. Yes, fully.
16 Q. Who can issue an order? Here it says on a special order --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: Very sorry to interrupt. It's just that what is
19 coming across in the transcript does not appear to be reflected in the
20 document itself, and that's what is causing the confusion. If I could
21 have a moment, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, it's not supposed to be 2175, it's
23 supposed to be 2174. I'm sorry for reading your lips.
24 MR. SAXON: That's what we've been looking at, Your Honour, and
25 we are not finding what is reflected in the transcript in the document,
1 and that's what is causing our confusion. Page 40, starting at line 18,
2 something about a POLO battery, if you see it, we don't see that.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you look at paragraph 2, command of the 1st
4 Army, can you see that heading?
5 MR. SAXON: Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go to the next paragraph, I think that POLO must
7 have been a misinterpretation, Immediately sent -- POLO armoured
8 personnel carrier, battery 9p133.
9 MR. SAXON: We've found it.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Who can issue an order for a transfer to --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought the witness answered that question. He
14 said it was perfectly within General Perisic's power to issue this order.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 41, 77 --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, look at page 41, line 3:
19 "Is this order within the scope of his authority in terms of what
20 you discussed the other day?" "Yes, fully."
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but that has to do with the
22 order. But this is another question. This is my next question. It has
23 to do with the transfer.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: My apologies.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. So, is this order in accordance with the powers for the unit to
2 act? Is it from that point of view in accordance with the powers of the
3 Chief of General Staff for the units to prepare to be used?
4 A. It is fully in keeping with his powers, fully. He uses the units
5 all the way up until the moment when the units are to be used, and the
6 actual use is approved by the supreme commander.
7 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could we have the next document now,
8 please. This is P21755. This is also a document of the Chief of General
9 Staff dated the 13th of May, 1995 sent to the commander --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I didn't think we have that many
11 exhibits already, P21755.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 2755.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document I'm told is under seal.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we then please move into
16 private session.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
18 [Private session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. We are going to wait for the document to appear on our screens.
23 Do you have the document in front of you, General?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The document is self-explanatory, but I would like us to look at
1 paragraph 3 where it says:
2 "The engaged forces of the corps of special units and the
3 subordinated units should be deployed on the request of the commander of
4 the 11th Corps and with my approval."
5 General Perisic, the Chief of General Staff, can he issue an
6 order on the use of these units on his own, or does he need someone
7 else's order and if so, whose?
8 A. He cannot. He needs a decision by the supreme commander, and
9 that is why he has this proviso on my special order.
10 Q. It says approval here.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. We will see the document in a minute on our screens, Mr. Simic.
10 Can you tell us what this is and why this order was issued and signed by
11 General Perisic?
12 A. Mr. Lukic, you've told the Honourable Chamber the number in
13 English, and I can't really follow you.
14 Q. I apologise, that's P2761, a document from the first
15 administration dated the 21st of June, 1995.
16 A. Yes, I can see it now.
17 Q. Could you please just tell us briefly, this was produced by your
18 administration. It was signed by the Chief of the General Staff. Tell
19 us, please, why was your administration involved in the drafting of this
20 document, and what is the function of this order?
21 A. As I said earlier, the first administration was responsible for
22 the security of the Yugoslav Army. And as such, it proposed this and the
23 Chief of the General Staff accepted it. The proposal was since there was
24 no mobilisation, that then we should establish combat groups from parts
25 of trained units and forces and deploy them in certain areas close to the
2 Q. What borders is this in view of the localities mentioned here,
3 Rudo Priboj?
4 A. This is the border with Republika Srpska along the valley, the
5 Dina Valley
6 Q. Why was it important to establish this combat groups, and tell
7 me, please, just in general terms for the Trial Chamber, how -- what was
8 the manpower of these combat groups based on the information that we see
9 before us? So what was -- what were the manpower levels of those units?
10 A. Combat groups are established on an ad hoc basis as needed, and
11 as a general rule, there is no rule as to their manpower levels.
12 Depending on the needs, they could be a strengthened infantry company or
13 a strengthened artillery -- or tank company, so it could be from 150 to
14 200 men and the equipment that those units have at their disposal.
15 Q. In paragraph 3 it says that these groups that are being
16 established are to be deployed in this sector pursuant to an approval
17 from the Chief of the General Staff. Is this in keeping with the
18 authority of the Chief of the General Staff and what his authority was in
20 A. Mr. Lukic, yes, but I would like to correct something you said.
21 Not by permission or by approval of, but by order of the Chief of the
22 General Staff.
23 Q. Here we see the use of this unit that had only to do with
24 preparations and their deployment along the border, and not their use in
1 A. I perfectly understand what you are saying, and that's what I'm
2 saying, the preparation of units for their use --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters request that the witness
4 repeat his answer.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters request that you repeat your
6 answer, Mr. Simic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is within the competence of
8 the chief of the General Staff. He can take steps and measures in order
9 to prevent any surprises as he assesses as to where they might occur, and
10 the document for the use of units in combat has to be issued by the
11 supreme commander.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The last document that I would like
13 to have the witness see is a 65 ter document, 01059, a Defence document.
14 Could we just move briefly to private session for the purposes of this
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 10133-10136 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Court Officer. There are
14 the papers.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Are these copies for me to keep, or
16 should I be looking through them?
17 MR. SAXON: These are copies for the witness to use. We were not
18 able to prepare by the start of today binders for the Defence. We have
19 sent a list to the Defence of the materials that we will probably be
20 using on cross-examination.
21 If I can just explain to the Chamber why there are three binders.
22 One binder contains Prosecution exhibits. Another binder contains
23 exhibits that have not been admitted but are on the Prosecution 65 ter
24 list. And then there is a binder that contains some new material which
25 we will explain to the Chamber when we get to it.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour, if I might, with regard
2 to any evidence that could be categorised as fresh evidence under
3 pre-existing case law and jurisprudence at the Tribunal, if we could be
4 notified well in advance so that any kind of arguments with regard to the
5 admission of fresh evidence is something that can be handled prior to any
6 questions being asked of the witness. In the absence of knowing
7 specifically what documents there are, I'm sure Mr. Saxon is well aware
8 of the litigation that is going on with regard to the use of fresh
9 evidence in examination by the Prosecution.
10 MR. SAXON: Perhaps at the next break, Your Honour, I can explain
11 to the Defence what the new or fresh evidence that is included in our
12 material is.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: During the break?
14 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to that particular issue, that may
16 require legal argument because there are certain very definite standards
17 that exist with regard to the Prosecution's use of fresh evidence in
18 their cross-examination. But until we see what they are suggesting, we
19 are not in a position to respond.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you wait for the break and maybe we might be
21 able to respond after the break once you first talked to the Prosecution?
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe so.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
24 Are you happy with the binders, Mr. Lukic?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In as much as I'm able to peruse it
1 quickly, I can agree for them to be given to the witness.
2 MR. SAXON: Perhaps in order to make a little bit more room for
3 the witness and the binders, I think there's a binder of what were
4 Defence exhibits on the ELMO. Perhaps if that could be given back to the
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give this one, Mr. Usher.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Simic.
9 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor.
10 Q. Preliminarily I'd like to take you back, please, to your
11 testimony on Tuesday and the discussion that you had with Mr. Lukic on
12 the powers of the Chief of the General Staff to engage units of the Army
13 of Yugoslavia
14 9926 through 9928 of the transcript, you describe the rights and powers
15 of the Chief of the General Staff to engage units of the Army of
17 to 6, and at page 9932 that when it comes to the use of force, the Chief
18 of the General Staff does not have the right to engage army units for
19 that purpose because it is within the exclusive purview of the supreme
20 commander. And as well on page 9926, you explained that the Chief of the
21 General Staff can only engage VJ units in the use of force with the prior
22 decision of the supreme commander. That is the president. Do you recall
23 that testimony?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. My question is, if at some time while he was Chief of the General
1 Staff, General Perisic had engaged units of the VJ in combat without a
2 prior decision or order of the supreme commander, General Perisic would
3 have been operating outside of the law of the Federal Republic
5 A. He would always step his authorities granted to him under the
7 Q. Then the answer to my question would be a yes; is that right,
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. On Tuesday, this is at page 9936, lines 15 to 20 of the
11 transcript, you were discussing what became Exhibit D199 with the
12 witness. I'm wondering if we can see that on the screen, please, and if
13 perhaps -- excuse me. So there is a binder in front of you that says
14 "admitted exhibits". Perhaps the usher can help you find that. It says
15 "D and P Exhibits" on the label. And if you could turn to the tab that
16 says D199.
17 And could we please go to the next page, please. We need to see
18 Article 5 on the screen.
19 Q. Mr. Simic, are you able to find Article 5 where it says:
20 "Command in terms of this order represents the function of
21 integrated control of subordinated commands, units, and institutions."
22 Have you found that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you explained on Tuesday that this means that the Chief of
25 the General Staff can command his subordinate, give them duties and
1 tasks, request reports on information about the carrying out of duties
2 assigned to them. And the question I wanted to ask you was whether -- if
3 Momcilo Perisic as the Chief of the General Staff wanted to order someone
4 to give him a report, he could only issue such an order to one of his
5 subordinates; is that a fair statement?
6 A. In item five of "General Provisions" it stipulates that command
7 function is part of the General Staff.
8 Q. I understand that, Mr. Simic. I'm moving beyond Article 5 now,
9 I'm following up on the comment that you gave to Mr. Lukic when he was
10 discussing Article 5 with you. And I want to know whether if General
11 Perisic wants to order someone to give him a report, if he is the Chief
12 of the General Staff, he could only issue such an order to his
13 subordinates; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I see the time. Perhaps this would be a
17 good time to take the second break, and I'll discuss a few things with my
18 colleagues as well.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do think it is a good time indeed. We'll take a
20 break and come back at quarter to 6.00. Court adjourned.
21 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon. Have you been able to resolve
24 your differences with your colleagues?
25 MR. SAXON: I would say we've been able to discuss our
1 differences, and we will ventilate them perhaps further at the
2 appropriate time with the Trial Chamber.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Mr. Simic, we were looking at what is now Exhibit D199, and I'm
6 wondering if we could turn to section 13, and that's on page 7 of the
7 English version and page 5 of the B/C/S version. Page 5, Mr. Simic,
8 about five lines from the bottom.
9 MR. SAXON: I'm wondering if we could increase the size of the
10 English a bit. Thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Simic, you'll see that section 13 there is a provision that
12 says, in terms of the functions of the office of the chief of the General
13 Staff in terms of commanding, it says that it:
14 "Prepares orders for business trips abroad for professional
15 officers, non-commissioned officers, and civilian persons, and sends them
16 for signing to the Federal Ministry of Defence." Do you see that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. It is about five provisions up from the bottom of what I believe
19 is page 5.
20 A. I can see page 5, last paragraph is illegible in this copy. It
21 begins with "commands directly subordinate units and institutions --
22 Q. Mr. Simic, about of halfway between the word "commanding" and the
23 bottom of the page, there's a provision that says: "Prepares orders for
24 business trips abroad..." Do you see that provision?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Simic, if you look at that heading that you
1 were read, commanding, there are bullet points down there, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
2 number 6, the 6th bullet point, can you read that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Do you see that it says: "Prepares orders for business trips?"
6 A. I'm really sorry for taking so much time, but I'm looking at the
7 wrong page. This is on page 6, actually.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, it's on page 6, Mr. Simic, we are very sorry.
9 MR. SAXON:
10 Q. I apologise. Do you see that provision on page 6?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'd like to explore this with you for a moment, please. These
13 orders for business trips abroad. For example, for a business trip
14 abroad for the Chief of the General Staff, who prepares these orders?
15 A. Mr. Prosecutor, you are quoting an order which is within the
16 purview of the office of the Chief of General Staff that provides
17 services for the Chief of General Staff.
18 Q. So your answer is, if I understand you, officers who work in the
19 office will be preparing these orders for business trips; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what do the preparations entail? What would be contained
22 within such an order?
23 A. I cannot give you a full answer to that. What would this order
24 would contain because this is beyond my scope of responsibilities. The
25 Chief of General Staff in addition to his office had an administration
1 for liaison with international organisations, and then probably these two
2 bodies co-ordinated these kind of activities. I, myself, never wrote
3 such an order.
4 Q. All right. Do you know if -- do you know where records of such
5 orders might be kept?
6 A. According to the rule governing official correspondence and
7 depending on the relevance of the document, a period for its safekeeping
8 is determined. Specifically when it comes to this kind of order, I
9 cannot give you this period of time. All documents are kept in the
11 Q. Very well. One more question on this topic. In 1993, 1994,
12 1995, if General Perisic had left the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,
13 made a business trip to one of the former republics over to another
14 country, would there be security travelling with him?
15 A. Depending on the destination and the task. Again, I cannot give
16 you any more details about this because, as I said, this is beyond the
17 scope of my responsibilities.
18 Q. Very well. Thank you.
19 MR. SAXON: We can remove this document from the screen. And can
20 we please see what is now Exhibit D202.
21 Q. And in that binder that you've got in front of you, Mr. Simic,
22 you should see at -- one of those red tabs should say D202 on it.
23 MR. SAXON: And in e-court --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 MR. SAXON: Scroll down, please, in the B/C/S, and if we can
1 enlarge the English just a little bit. Thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Simic, this is one of the documents that Mr. Lukic discussed
3 with you on Tuesday, and at page 9970, starting at line 19 through page
4 9971 to line 8, you explain that with the exception of item 22 on this
5 list --
6 MR. SAXON: And can we please turn the page in both versions so
7 we can see item 22. I think we are going the wrong way in B/C/S.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Stay on the first page in the B/C/S. Thank you.
9 MR. SAXON: Yes.
10 Q. You said that with the exception of -- with the exception of item
11 22 on the list, which is the Federal Ministry of Defence, you said that
12 this document was, and I'm quoting you:
13 "Distributed to all organisational units of the VJ General Staff
14 and those immediately subordinated to the chain of command directly
15 subordinated to the Chief of the General Staff, that is."
16 Do you recall that testimony?
17 A. Yes, but I added the Ministry of Defence under 22 because you can
18 see the whole list of the recipients.
19 Q. That's right. Can you please take a look at item 21 on the
20 distribution list. It has the letters KSJ. Can you tell us what those
21 letters stand for in the Army of Yugoslavia, what they stood for?
22 A. Mr. Prosecutor, this stands for the Special Unit Corps.
23 Q. And, Mr. Simic, can you recall, for example, in 1993 and 1994
24 what were the names of the units of the brigades that made up the Special
25 Unit Corps? Was one of them the 72nd Brigade?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you recall the names of the other units in the Special Unit
4 A. There should have been the guard's brigade, the 72nd Special
5 Brigade, and the paratrooper Brigade.
6 Q. And the Special Unit Corps were also directly subordinated to the
7 chief of the General Staff; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And when Momcilo Perisic became the Chief of the General Staff in
10 August 1993, were the Special Unit Corps at that time, were they also
11 directly subordinated to him; if you recall?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. SAXON: Can we please take a look at what is now Exhibit
15 Q. And hopefully you've got a red tab there, Mr. Simic, that says
17 A. It's hard for me to find my way. I have to be quite honest about
18 that, Mr. Prosecutor. The markings are difficult.
19 Q. I'm very grateful for your patience. Maybe the usher can assist
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: While the usher is assisting him, Mr. Saxon, I saw
22 them trying to enlarge these charts here to the best of their ability
23 with the two-page division, and I still don't see -- but I can't see what
24 is in there.
25 MR. SAXON: Well, the question that I'm going to ask may not
1 require necessarily great visual acuity at this time, but I'll let you be
2 the Judge of that.
3 Q. Mr. Simic, we don't see the Special Unit Corps anywhere in this
4 organogram. It's from June 1993. Why is that; if you know?
5 A. Mr. Prosecutor, you cannot see the Special Unit Corps because it
6 is not an organisational unit of the General Staff, rather, it is at a
7 lower level in the first chain of command at army rank.
8 Q. I see. So in other words, the special corps units were directly
9 subordinate to the Chief of the General Staff, but not an organisation
10 unit of the Chief of the General Staff; is that a fair statement?
11 A. General Staff is a staff and it has a structure of its own. At a
12 lower level, there are commands of the armies, of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Army,
13 the command of the RV and the PVO, the navy command, the command of the
14 Special Unit Corps.
15 Q. Very well.
16 A. That is why, that is why the organogram cannot represent that as
17 well. Perhaps if a line were drawn and then you would show the first
18 chain of subordination.
19 Q. Thank you very much, that explains it.
20 MR. SAXON: We can remove D195 now, please.
21 Q. Mr. Simic, I would like you to turn your mind now back to the
23 And I have some questions that I'd like to ask you about that. And you
24 explained yesterday that what we know as the Drina plan was actually a
25 piece of strategic camouflage, it was produced in order to deceive the
1 enemy. Do you recall your testimony?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. You mentioned yesterday that in addition to the members of the VJ
4 General Staff taking part in the preparation of the Drina plan, General
5 Novakovic from the SVK Main Staff participated, as well as General
6 Milanovic from the VRS Main Staff. My question for you is this: If the
8 Mladic, General Milovanovic, and others from the Army of the Republika
9 Srpska have done to elaborate its own plans so that the Army of Republika
10 Srpska could implement the Drina
11 Let's forget for a moment, to use your term, that this was a
12 strategic deception or camouflage. If this was a general plan, what
13 would the Main Staff of the VRS have done?
14 A. Had this been a complete plan of use and had extracts been
15 provided to the Main Staffs, they would have to elaborate plans for their
16 own units including a more detailed operationalisation in terms of
17 carrying out the said tasks.
18 Q. And when you say the Main Staffs, so -- would have had to
19 elaborate plans for their own units, so does that mean, for example,
20 plans at the corps level?
21 A. I have to give a bit of a broader explanation. If he received an
22 extract from the directive that we saw that was signed by the president
23 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, then they, as the Main Staff, they
24 had to elaborate their own complex plan like this. And then from that
25 plan, they should have provided extracts for the respective corps where
1 the tasks of specific corps would be spelled out in even greater detail.
2 The corps should issue orders to their brigade command and then it is set
3 exactly who does what where and with who in the field. That is the
4 methodology that is customary in the elaboration of such plans.
5 Q. So I imagine during this lengthy and complex process, orders are
6 issued by superiors to their subordinates to produce plans, right?
7 A. I did not understand the question fully.
8 Q. Well, you'd expect to see during this process, for example, an
9 order from a corps commander to his staff saying produce a particular
10 plan for a particular part of the Drina
11 A. Corps commanders elaborate orders for their command. An order is
12 a lower level of ordering when compared to a directive. The directive
13 was elaborated by you see who and they issue orders.
14 Q. And you would expect, for example, you would expect those orders
15 to be signed, you would expect them to be sealed, right?
16 A. Document is considered to be valid if it is logged, signed, and
17 verified by the authorised commander.
18 Q. All right. And again during this process, you would also expect
19 to see plans being sent up, for example, to a corps commander for the
20 corps commander's approval, wouldn't you?
21 A. Could we please clarify one matter. A directive for the use of
22 armed forces that is being elaborated before combat activities has to
23 contain all its integral parts. During the combat activities themselves,
24 orders elaborate what had been planned in the directive.
25 Q. And the different component parts of the plan need to be
1 approved, for example, if it's at a corps level by the corps commander;
2 is that right?
3 A. A corps commander issued an order to his subordinates. Before
4 his subordinates make a decision on the implementation of that, the corps
5 commander should be informed of the decision. The decision is the fourth
6 item in the order, and I para-phrase this, it says:
7 "I have hereby decided to use the main forces along such and such
8 an axis, main axis, auxiliary axis, et cetera."
10 that or simply gives his approval. That is considered to be the process
12 Q. Very well.
13 A. Thank you.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. SAXON: At this time we have another binder that I'd like to
16 give to General Simic. Perhaps for now those three binders can be
17 cleared away from his desk because he won't be looking at them for
18 awhile. I've already shown this particular binder, the next binder, to
19 Mr. Lukic. He doesn't have a problem with it.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You confirm, Mr. Lukic?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that I have had a look at
22 these documents. I saw them during the break.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 MR. SAXON: Perhaps if we could pull up on the screen what is
1 Q. If you open that binder, Mr. Simic, and just turn to tab 1. What
2 you should see in front of you is a document entitled "Extract From the
3 Directive For the Use of the Republika Srpska Army." Do you see that?
4 Just the very first page, if we can look at the first page for now.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I think you'll also notice, if you can follow me, Mr. Simic,
7 up at the top of that page, just the first page for now, it says at the
8 top "National Defence State Secret R Drina. Copy Number 1." Then below
9 we see "December 1993". Are you following me?
10 A. December 1993.
11 Q. Right. Okay. And I'd now like to direct your attention, please,
12 to the very last page. And you see on the very last page we see the
13 signature of General Ratko Mladic and the seal of the VRS Main Staff?
14 A. Yes, I've found it.
15 Q. And up above the signature it says: "Date when directive comes
16 into effect" and then it says: "The directive shall come into effect on
17 28 December 1993
18 So this would indicate actually that an extract from the Drina
19 plan was actually sent to the Army of Republika Srpska, doesn't it?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Can you explain why you say no?
22 A. I can. This is an extract. The commander of the Main Staff sent
23 it to his subordinate units and that extract is from the Federal -- or
24 rather, had it been from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia then it would
25 have been registered with a stamp and seal of the Federal Republic
2 directive that we had discussed.
3 Q. Point taken, thank you for clarifying that. But what this does
4 show is that at some point in time, obviously, General Mladic became
5 aware of the Drina
6 A. I never denied that, because his Chief of Staff along with a
7 group of officers was present during the elaboration of that plan at the
8 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, and that is how he received
9 information from his Chief of Staff, Manojlo Milovanovic.
10 Q. Very well.
11 MR. SAXON: If we could remove that document from the screen.
12 Q. And if you turn to tab -- to the next tab, Mr. Simic, we'll be
13 looking at what is P2158. I just want to focus on the first page,
15 A. Mr. Prosecutor, are you referring to the same binder?
16 Q. Yes, I am. Just the very next tab. And if you look at the
17 document there, you'll see in the upper right-hand it says: "People's
18 defence state secret 'Drina
19 you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then we see the title of the document "Logistical Support,
22 Attachment to the Republika Srpska Army Main Staff Directive." And if
23 you look at every page in the original, Mr. Simic, you'll see that every
24 page is stamped with the seal of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika
25 Srpska; is that right?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. So this would have been an attachment, and I'm very sorry, if you
3 go to the last page, you'll also see that it's signed by commander
4 General Ratko Mladic with the seal there. So just so that I understand
5 it, this would have been an attachment to the directive for the Drina
6 plan produced by the VRS Main Staff; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Very well.
9 A. However, if you allow me, Mr. Prosecutor, the methodology of
10 verifying documents says that he is supposed to sign the directive.
11 These are attachments. Attachments are signed by his assistant
12 commanders. In this specific case, this is an attachment for logistical
13 support, and it was supposed to be signed by his assistant commander for
15 Q. Very well, thank you for that. If you turn to the next tab,
17 MR. SAXON: And if we could see what is Exhibit P1554 on the
19 Q. And actually, you'll see this document is entitled --
20 MR. SAXON: Perhaps if we could zoom in on the English, please,
21 because otherwise our judges will be handicapped. Perhaps a bit more so
22 they can read the title. Thank you.
23 Q. So we see this is a plan of logistics support for operational
24 formations and units of the Army of Republika Srpska. We see in the
25 upper left-hand corner, and maybe we could zoom -- thank you. That it's
1 been approved by the commander Ratko Mladic. And on the right side it
2 says: "National defence state secret Drina." And if you direct your
3 attention, Mr. Simic, to the bottom right-hand corner of the first page,
4 you'll see that it was signed just like, I believe you referred to a
5 moment ago, by General Mladic's assistant, his assistant commander for
6 logistics base, General Major Djordje Lukic. I'm sorry, I've just been
7 informed that the name should be Djukic, not Lukic. Are you able to see
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So this particular plan would have been produced by General
11 Djordje Djukic and then approved by his commander Ratko Mladic; is that
12 right? That's how it works?
13 A. That's right. However, this document is an integral part of the
14 previous logistics support. This is its operationalisation in greater
15 detail, and it didn't have to be approved to that extent. Ratko Mladic
16 was supposed to approve that logistics support, and Djukic was supposed
17 to sign this.
18 Q. Could you turn -- thank you for that. Could you turn, let's see,
19 in your version it would be -- on the first page, it's a bit difficult to
20 read because we see columns running vertically and columns running
21 horizontally, at least in the Serbo-Croat version, but about a quarter of
22 the way down the page in your version, Mr. Simic, we see a reference to
23 "TRZM Kragujevac." And I'm sorry for my mispronunciation. Are you able
24 to see that? It's actually in a column that's running vertically, so
25 it's a bit awkward to read. First it says TRZ Hadzici, RZ Kosmos?
1 A. [B/C/S spoken] that is what the abbreviation says. It is
2 technical and overall institution.
3 Q. Is that an institution that is part -- at least at that time was
4 part of the Army of Yugoslavia?
5 A. Which one do you mean, sorry?
6 Q. TRZM Kragujevac.
7 A. No, no. It was in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia within the
8 authority of the Ministry of Defence.
9 Q. Very well. And if you could go down a little bit further in
10 those vertical rows, a few lines further down, and again I apologise
11 sincerely for my poor pronunciation, but there's a line that begins with
12 the number 14 and in the middle of that line we see the number 608. You
13 see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you explain what that number 608 is referring to?
16 A. 608 logistics base of the Army of Yugoslavia.
17 Q. Very well. If we can turn away from this document now, and,
18 Mr. Simic, if you could turn the page, go to the next tab, which should
19 be number 4.
20 MR. SAXON: And if we can see, please, what is P1557.
21 Q. You will see, Mr. Simic, this says: "National defence state
22 secret - R Drina copy number 1. Communications order number 1." And
23 then the first section there refers to communication centres. Can you
24 tell us the purpose of this document? Just briefly, a summary.
25 A. The purpose of this document is in its title. It's an order
1 relating to communications.
2 Q. And if you turn to the last page. Excuse me, I'm sorry,
3 Mr. Simic. In your version it's the penultimate page where you'll see
4 the signature of General Manojlo Milovanovic and the stamp of the VRS
5 Main Staff, and it's also signed by chief of communications Colonel
6 Prole. Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And why is such an order important for a directive like the Drina
10 A. It is extremely important because it governs the command post,
11 the location of communication centres at these command posts, how
12 communications are maintained, and other things of that nature.
13 Q. So this would actually be a pretty sensitive document if the
14 information is correct; is that right?
15 A. All the attachments that go with the directive have the same
16 level of secrecy. Therefore, in each one of them, the relevance of the
17 document is determined because by that, it operationalisation what is
18 given in the directive in its textual part. Let me be even clearer, and
19 attachment to the directive cannot be at a lower level of secrecy than
20 the very source or the original document.
21 Q. Thank you. If you could turn to the next tab, please, tab 5.
22 MR. SAXON: And if we could see the document that is P1558,
24 Q. You'll see, Mr. Simic, this document is entitled "Chart of the
25 Republika Srpska Army's Daily Analogue Radio Relay Communications." Are
1 you with me?
2 A. I can see this chart in English.
3 Q. You don't have a copy in your language?
4 A. No, but there's no problem.
5 Q. Well, I can give you a copy.
6 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I said it's no problem because what was written
7 in the previous document is now graphically presented here, the
8 communications order. That's why I said it's no problem if it is in
9 English only.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. In the upper right-hand corner we see
11 it says: "National defence state secret Drina, supplement number 2, copy
12 number 1." And in the middle of the page, there is a stamp, which has
13 been translated as general stamp [sic] of the army, and if you could
14 focus your attention right now, Mr. Simic, on the far right-hand side of
15 this chart, up towards the right-hand top corner, we see a circle and the
16 word "Belgrade
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what this appears to show, appears to show the analogue radio
19 links between Belgrade
21 A. Avala is a mountain to the south of Belgrade.
22 Q. Very well.
23 A. And on this mountain, the communication equipment was located, or
24 more precisely, the repeaters.
25 Q. Very well. And if you direct your eyes down the page from Avala,
1 further down we see the word, I don't know how it to pronounce this, I'll
2 give it a try, "Cigota." What was Cigota?
3 A. It is on the mount Zlatibor
4 Republika Srpska. It's a high hill or a high ground, I don't know how to
5 call it.
6 Q. It's close to the border, but it's within Serbia; is that right?
7 A. Absolutely.
8 Q. Okay. And then we see the connections go towards the centre of
9 the page. In the centre of the page we see a circle next to the word
10 "Pale," and above that we see "Sarajevo-Romanija Corps." Would these be
11 the locations of radio relay repeaters in the area of the Army of
12 Republika Srpska?
13 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Prosecutor, I can't find my bearings. Can you
14 please repeat your last question.
15 Q. Sure. Maybe if this will help you, if you look at the stamp in
16 the middle of the page, and if you look, say, to around 4.00 or 5.00 down
17 from that stamp, first you see "Sarajevo-Romanija Corps" and then you see
18 the word "Pale." You see that?
19 A. Yes, yes, now I see it.
20 Q. And then moving up towards the right at about 2.00, we see the
21 Main Staff of the Republika Srpska Army at Han Pijsak, are you with me?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So these would have been analogue relay stations controlled by
24 the Army of the Republika Srpska? I'm sorry, I've asked you this
25 question already. I don't need to repeat it. If you move -- if you look
1 at the stamp in the middle of the page, and you move up about 10.00 we
2 see relays in the town of Banja Luka. And above that there's a relay on,
3 we see the word "Kosara." Is that Kosara mountain?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then from Banja Luka, if you look down to around 7.00 to the
6 left we see a reference to the Serbian army of the Republic of Serbian
7 Krajina, next to a triangle with the word "Knin." You see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So this attachment to the Drina
10 demonstrates the analogue radio connections between the Army of
12 Krajina. Is that a fair statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. SAXON: I'm grateful to Mr. Harmon. There appears to be
15 either I misspoke or there's an error in the transcript at page 74, line
16 24. That should say General Staff of the army. Not general stamp of the
17 army. If that could be corrected, please.
18 Q. Mr. Simic, could you turn to the next tab, please. It should
19 be --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I'm a little slow. You said page 74.
21 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Line?
23 MR. SAXON: Line 24. I should have said General Staff of the
24 army, not general stamp of the army. That's what the English translation
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. General Simic, if you could turn to what is tab 6 in your binder.
4 MR. SAXON: And if we could see P1559 on the screen.
5 Q. General, you'll see this document is entitled "Intelligence Plan
6 for Execution of Defensive and Offensive VRS operations." On the
7 right-hand side at the top it says: "National defence state secret
9 A. Yes, I can see it.
10 Q. On the upper left-hand side we see -- we see that it says "I
11 approve." And then it says: "Main Staff of the Army of Republika
12 Srpska." Signed and stamped by General Ratko Mladic. So this is an
13 example of the kind of plan that Ratko Mladic would have to approve as
14 part of the Drina
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If you could turn to the next tab, tab 7.
17 MR. SAXON: And if we could see Exhibit P1560 in e-court, please.
18 Q. General, you'll see that this document is entitled "Plan of Moral
19 and Psychological Activities and Information Work of the Army of
20 Republika Srpska." And on the upper right it says: "National defence
21 state secret - R, Drina
22 the upper left-hand side, we see it's been approved by the commander
23 Ratko Mladic. We see the stamp there, the Main Staff, and if you could
24 go to, let me see, in your version it would be the third page, you'll see
25 that there's a stamp that's pretty much illegible and a signature. Have
1 you been following me?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. However, if you go to the very last page in your version, which
4 is page 7.
5 MR. SAXON: The last page in the English version, please.
6 Q. What we see at the very end of this plan is that it's signed by
7 Major-General Milan Gvero, who at that time was the assistant commander
8 for moral guidance and religious and legal affairs.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: In which army?
10 MR. SAXON: Well, this is a document from the VRS, Your Honour.
11 That's the best I can -- I can ask the witness.
12 Q. If you can tell us in late 1993, if you know, early 1994, where
13 Milan Gvero was serving, do you know?
14 A. Well, in the Army of Republika Srpska, and it's all written here.
15 And this previous signature that you say is illegible, it's also Milan
16 Gvero's signature.
17 Q. I see. Thank you for that. If you could turn back to page 1 of
18 the document, General Simic, please.
19 MR. SAXON: If you go back to page 1 in the English.
20 Q. And if you could focus on the paragraph that is entitled
21 "Objectives." The paragraph after the word "objectives" begins with
23 A. I can see it.
24 Q. And about halfway down that paragraph we see "... and our firm
25 determination to take all available measures to prevent other peoples
1 from creating and rounding up their states at the expense of
2 traditionally Serbian territories and the Serbian population, and instead
3 continue to create conditions for the liberation and unification of all
4 Serbian territories in one state." Do you see that? Do you see that
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. SAXON: If we could leave this language -- this document for
8 a moment and go to what is P215. And if Mr. Usher could assist General
9 Simic to find the tab in the P and D binder that says P215, please. I've
10 just been told that document might be there -- excuse me, might not be
11 there. Let's see if we can do this using the screen.
12 If we can go, please, to page 7 in both languages. And to assist
13 General Simic, yes, could we blow up what is there.
14 Q. And are you able to see, General, there's large title Called "Use
15 of Armed Forces." Are you able to see that at the top?
16 A. Yes, I can.
17 Q. And below that we see the phrase "general objectives" and
18 followed by two paragraphs. And the second paragraph says the following,
19 in part:
20 "Defend the territorial integrity of the Serbian states west of
21 the Drina
22 protect Serbian people from genocide, liberate parts of Serbian
23 territories with Serbian majorities," and then it says "create conditions
24 for the establishment of a single state of the Serbian people ..."
25 Were you able to follow with me?
1 A. Yes, fully.
2 Q. So we see there similar language about the creation of a single
3 Serbian state that we saw a moment ago in the plan -- from the Drina
4 from the Army of Republika Srpska. Would you agree with me on that?
5 A. If I were able to read where it's written. I cannot follow you,
6 I'm sorry, Mr. Prosecutor. We are going backwards and forwards, it's
7 difficult for me to follow. I would really like it to do so. I read it
8 and that's what it says.
9 Q. There's no need to apologise, it's my fault because I should have
10 brought a hard copy. It's completely my fault. I will move on.
11 I actually have a hard copy of this page from the Drina
12 what was P215. Do you see that in the second paragraph about the "create
13 conditions for the establishment of a single state of the Serbian
15 A. Yes, I saw that on the screen too.
16 Q. And if you take a look now at tab 7 in your binder. The first
17 page. Under "objectives" it also talks about "to continue to create
18 conditions for the liberation and unification of all Serbian territories
19 in one state." Would you agree that these objectives are similar?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. SAXON: Thank you. If we could remove that document, please.
22 Q. And could you please turn to tab 8 in your binder, Mr. Simic?
23 MR. SAXON: And if we could see Exhibit P1561 on the screen.
24 Q. You see this document is entitled "The Use of Anti-Aircraft
25 Defence and Air Support Forces." You see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. PVO stands for anti-aircraft defence; am I right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And in the upper right we see "People's defence, state secret,
6 bottom of the --
7 MR. SAXON: On the screen can we please see the bottom of the
8 page in B/C/S, please.
9 Q. We see on the bottom of that page, we see a stamp of the Army of
10 Republika Srpska Main Staff. So -- and it talks about at the start of
11 this document the first phase of the operation. So would this be part of
12 a plan? Can you explain to us how this document would fit into a
13 directive like the Drina
14 A. In the same manner as the one that we saw before, the attachment
15 to logistical support, only in this instance it refers to the air force
16 and anti-aircraft defence.
17 MR. SAXON: Very well. Your Honour, I note the time, shall we
18 stop for the day?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: We shall if you are ready to stop.
20 Yes, sir.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I can ask, although I asked
22 Mr. Saxon during the break, can he tell me now the plan for
23 cross-examination. It is important for me with a view to calling the
24 next witness. I would very much appreciate if I would have the weekend
25 to work with the witness because I wouldn't like to have a new witness
1 being brought into the courtroom late tomorrow afternoon.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You want Mr. Saxon to tell you his plan of
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 MR. SAXON: It's always difficult to be precise, as everyone
6 understands, and it may depend on certain discussions or arguments that
7 occur tomorrow on subsequent materials, but I believe I would take two
8 sessions, perhaps a bit more tomorrow. But approximately two sessions.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In that case, I would kindly ask the
12 Trial Chamber if there could possibly be some redirect that I would be
13 given some time to work with the next witness over the weekend?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand your request, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we finish fully with Mr. Simic
16 tomorrow and if we have only a little bit of time left before the end of
17 our working day, could I kindly ask you to allow me not to bring in the
18 next witness if we only have that little bit of time left at the end of
19 our work tomorrow so that I could work with the witness over the weekend.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. If Mr. Saxon is going to take at least
21 two sessions, you have redirect to do, there may be questions from the
22 Bench, there may be questions arising from the questions from the Bench,
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind you once again, Mr. Simic, that you
1 may not talk to anybody and in particular to your lawyers about the case.
2 You shall come back here tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.
3 The case stands adjourned to quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in
4 Courtroom II. Court adjourned.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of
7 February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.