Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10346

 1                           Tuesday, 2 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

11     The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             Could we have the appearances for the day starting with the

14     Prosecution.

15             MR. SAXON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Barney Thomas, Dan

16     Saxon, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             And for the Defence.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

20     afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic is

21     represented today by Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, Tina Drolec, and Mr.

22     Zorko.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             Good afternoon to you, Mr. Simic.  Again, a warning that you

25     already know, to tell the truth and whole truth and nothing else but the

Page 10347

 1     truth.  Thank you so much.

 2             Mr. Saxon.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

 4     afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. SAXON:  Our Honour, can we excuse the witness for a moment,

 7     please.  I have a motion to make.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Simic, you are asked to please excuse us for a

 9     short while.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

12             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, this is an application to use a

13     photograph that falls into the category of fresh evidence with

14     General Simic.  And we have some copies.  We've already given a copy to

15     Defence counsel and a copy for General Perisic, and I've got several more

16     copies here which can I show to the Chamber, if the Chamber would like to

17     see them.

18             It is 65 ter 431002.  It was on the Prosecution's 65 ter list.

19     It was not tendered into evidence.  We had an agreed fact related to this

20     photograph.  This photograph shows the area of the Kozluk massacre, part

21     one of the events related to Srebrenica in July 1995.  Shows the Drina

22     river, and the execution site, and the burial site for approximately --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you carry on.  You've got s

24     photograph, Mr. Lukic?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour, I do.

Page 10348

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we getting copies?  Thank you.

 2             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, Your Honours were at this site during

 3     the site visit last year, and there --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  Carry on.

 5             MR. SAXON:  And in the work book for the site visit, around page

 6     94, there is some satellite imagery of this particular site.

 7             In his testimony, this witness referred to the heightened

 8     security of the VJ border patrols.  This was at transcript page 10095 on

 9     last Thursday.  The witness testified with regard to the Srebrenica

10     events:

11             "Therefore, it was important to take measures of heightened

12     security along the state border, so that such armed persons would not

13     cross the border or, rather, even if they were to cross the border, that

14     we act in accordance with the border service rules."

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Can I just find out something from the

16     Defence?

17             What's the attitude of the Defence, Mr. Lukic?

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Can we have a second?  [Microphone not activated]

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe -- I believe in response to your

21     question, Your Honour, our position is -- is that based upon what we've

22     heard thus far, unless it's going any further, that the purpose for which

23     Mr. Saxon is suggesting that this photograph be shown to the witness does

24     not fall into the area of impeachment.  And I don't believe that -- that

25     the justification he has given falls within the jurisprudence as to why

Page 10349

 1     it's being offered only after the conclusion of its case, especially in

 2     light of some of the other things he said with regard to us having been

 3     in the area and at a site visit.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, yeah.  That is why I stopped him because I

 5     thought he was going outside the bounds of the jurisprudence.

 6             But I'm also not understanding you.  Can you just say in one

 7     sentence, are you opposed to the application or not?

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We are opposed to the application.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you.

10             Mr. Saxon, if you can motivate your application now that it is

11     being opposed within the jurisprudence of the Tribunal.

12             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, the Prosecution wishes to use this

13     photograph for the purposes of impeachment of the witness only, with

14     respect to the witness's evidence given about the -- his -- what he

15     described as the measures of heightened security along the state border.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

17             MR. SAXON:  In addition -- if I may carry on.  In addition, with

18     respect to a document that was tendered through the witness, which

19     document is now Exhibit D227.  It was discussed with the witness at pages

20     10101 to 10102 of the transcript on Thursday.  And on the second page of

21     this document, there is information provided by a VJ border unit

22     regarding, inter alia, a group of Muslims who were, at that time, in

23     Kozluk village.  And so the Prosecution wishes to use this photograph to

24     question the witness about what these so-called heightened measures

25     really were.

Page 10350

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And do you say that this photograph was in the

 2     Prosecution's 65 ter list?

 3             MR. SAXON:  It was 65 ter 4310.02.

 4             And if you've like, I could provide the disclosure history.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  That is also part of the issues you've

 6     got to address.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, this photograph was first disclosed via

 8     CD-ROM on the 9th of March, 2007.  Subsequently, it was re-disclosed each

 9     time the Prosecution disclosed its 65 ter exhibit list in toto to the

10     Defence.  And on those occasions it was disclosed on an external hard

11     drive.  That occurred on the 2nd of May, 2008; and then, again, on the

12     7th of May, 2008; and then when there was a change of Defence counsel in

13     the summer of 2008, it was disclosed again on the 16th of June, 2008 to

14     the present Defence counsel.  That is the disclosure history, Your

15     Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And why was it not used in evidence in-chief?

17             MR. SAXON:  It is my understanding, Your Honour, that it wasn't

18     necessary, given the fact that there were agreed facts pertaining to the

19     events in Srebrenica.  It was considered not to be necessary, given the

20     agreed facts pertaining to Srebrenica.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what was the fact that was agreed

22     specifically?

23             MR. SAXON:  The fact, Your Honour, was the following:  It's fact

24     number 26.  This is now from the second decision in respect of the

25     Srebrenica agreed facts, 30th of September, 2009.

Page 10351

 1             On the 16th of July, 1995, Kozluk on 15 or 16 July 1995, VRS

 2     and/or MUP soldiers transported about 500 Bosnian Muslim males to an

 3     isolated place near Kozluk and summarily executed them with automatic

 4     weapons.  These Bosnian Muslim men had been captured from the column of

 5     men retreating from the Srebrenica enclave, or separated in Potocari.  On

 6     the 16th of July, 1995, VRS soldiers buried the victims of the executions

 7     in a mass grave thereby.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All those facts, it is not one fact.  All those

 9     facts that are you mentioning do not touch upon heightened security along

10     the border.  So this is a completely different topic.

11             MR. SAXON:  Well, Your Honour, the heightened security - yeah -

12     referred to by this witness is pertaining obviously to these -- to these

13     facts that I have just read.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, this witness comes from Serbia.  He is

15     talking by heightened security by the Serb forces on the border.

16             MR. HARMON:  That's right.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The facts that are you talking about have to do

18     with the VRS, the capture of the Muslims, and taking them to wherever

19     they were killed, and the killing of those Muslims.  Where is the

20     reference, where is the agreed fact on the security on the border?

21             MR. SAXON:  Your point is taken, Your Honour.  There is no agreed

22     fact on the security along the border.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.

24             MR. SAXON:  But, if I may, Your Honour, you asked me why this

25     photograph was not used.

Page 10352

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

 2             MR. SAXON:  And quite frankly, a great deal of what we referred

 3     to then as crime base evidence, decisions were made not to use it, based

 4     on the facts -- based -- based on the reality that we had agreed facts

 5     related to Srebrenica.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I -- I don't dispute that you had the agreed facts

 7     related to Srebrenica, sir.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All I'm saying is, from the facts that you have

10     recited, the fact of heightened security along the border is not

11     mentioned.

12             MR. SAXON:  You're right.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I do not see then how evidence about a crime

14     base can be used to contradict testimony about heighten security along

15     the border.

16             MR. SAXON:  Well --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't see how you connect these two.

18             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, the -- this particular photograph, if

19     I'm given leave to use it, will be used to test the -- what the witness

20     said regarding to supposed measures of heightened security because what

21     it shows -- what this photograph shows is the proximity of, if you will,

22     the crime base of the Kozluk killing site to Serbia.  That is what this

23     photograph shows.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  And let me find out.  This murder area,

25     this crime base area, is it on the Serb side or the RS side?

Page 10353

 1             MR. SAXON:  It is on the RS side, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  And then -- and where was it where the

 3     Serb's border security is?  On the Serb side.

 4             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour, it does.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, what -- of what interest from the point of

 6     view of border security would an activity taking place on the other side

 7     of the river in another country got to do with the question of security?

 8             MR. SAXON:  Well, if you will, it goes to the failure of the

 9     border security patrols to report what was going on, Your Honour.  And

10     this is important.  I'm going to go back to the witness's testimony right

11     now.  Because if you look at what the witness said, this is at the top of

12     page -- the bottom of page 10094 where Mr. Lukic and the witness were

13     discussing an unsuccessful attempt by members of the 28th Division of the

14     Muslim Army to break through to Tuzla during the events around

15     Srebrenica.

16             At line 22 Mr. Lukic asked:

17             "General, for you at the operations centre was the movement of

18     the 28th Division of the Muslim Army an important military movement at

19     the time."

20             The answer:  "Yes."

21             And then Mr. Lukic asked why.  And at the top of page 10095, the

22     witness said with respect to the fact that Srebrenica is near the border

23     with the FRY:

24             "It is near the border with the FRY, and these forces that I

25     described here during their withdrawal and during their attempted

Page 10354

 1     breakthrough, part of them could have headed across the border towards

 2     the FRY."

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mm-hm.

 4             MR. SAXON:  "Therefore, it was important to take measures of

 5     heightened security."

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that perfectly well.  I still don't

 7     understand why you expect Serb security border officer to report - I

 8     don't know to whom - what happens in another country.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Well, Your Honour, if you take a look at D227, and

10     this Trial Chamber admitted this document just, I believe it was on

11     Thursday afternoon, it's a document from the daily operations report of

12     the operations centre of the VJ General Staff, and it is reporting

13     about -- it is reporting about -- information about persons who had

14     crossed over from Srebrenica and, Your Honour, it is --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Crossed over into Serbia.

16             MR. SAXON:  Crossed over into Serbia, yes, and it also reports

17     that according to a wounded prisoner, about 20 to 30 Muslims, men and

18     women, were waiting in the Kozluk village sector that is in Republika

19     Srpska, just across the river.  And that they would try to enter the

20     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia after night-fall.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But according to your wounded prisoner -- okay, I

22     hear what you say.

23             Are you done?

24             MR. SAXON:  I believe so, Your Honour.  I do want to explore with

25     the witness the failure of reporting about the events at Kozluk.

Page 10355

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought you wanted to explore with the witness

 2     security measures along the border.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Well, yes, Your Honour, but that -- I'm sorry if I'm

 4     misspeaking, but security measures at least from the Prosecution's

 5     perspective, would include whether they were monitoring what was going on

 6     at Kozluk because they were just -- they were apparently warned that

 7     people were going to try to cross over that evening and whether they were

 8     reporting what happened at Kozluk.  It is all part, Your Honour, of what

 9     we look at is border security.  It's monitoring, but it is also reporting

10     up.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic or Mr. Guy-Smith.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  As I submitted, I don't believe that Mr. Saxon

13     has made any compelling argument with regard to the issue that he has

14     presented.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber [Microphone not activated]

17             The Chamber by majority, Judge Moloto dissenting, grants your

18     application.

19             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Can the witness be --

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Before the witness comes in, if that's the

21     Chamber's ruling, considering that Mr. Saxon has testified with regard to

22     what the photograph is, I trust that Mr. Saxon is not going to tell the

23     witness what the photograph is when he is questioning him but in the

24     first instance is going to determine whether or not the witness

25     recognises the photograph or not, because if the witness recognises the

Page 10356

 1     photograph that might lead to one level of examination.  If the witness

 2     does not recognise the photograph, that would end this particular

 3     discussion.  Since the photograph is being used as a basis for

 4     impeachment, it would require, of course, if the witness was being

 5     cross-examined in some fashion either recognises the document, the

 6     subject matter, or is in a position to accept something with regard to

 7     the representation made in the document.  Since we're dealing with an

 8     image here, I think it is relatively important since the sole reason of

 9     this particular tendering is to impeach the witness with regard to a

10     specific issue, it is important to make a determination of whether or not

11     the witness, in fact, recognises the image that he is being shown.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I suggest that -- I'm sorry, Mr. Saxon.  I

13     guess, Mr. Saxon heard your warning, but I still suppose that Mr. Saxon

14     has the liberty to conduct his cross-examination the way he wants.  I

15     urge you, if he does anything that you think is objectionable to stand up

16     at that time and object.  We can't deal with an objection in anticipation

17     or on speculation.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Understood, and I thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

20             MR. SAXON:  If I just may ask one question of Defence counsel.

21     Is it the position of the Defence that this photograph does not depict

22     the Kozluk execution site?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what I was trying to avoid.  Now you're

24     going into dialogue.

25             Answer, Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 10357

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We were, I think, previously asked to stipulate

 2     to this photograph which we declined because we don't know.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Can we call in the witness, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness may be called in.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] While we're waiting for the witness

 6     to be taken into the courtroom, I would like to intervene into the

 7     transcript, page 11, line 2.  It wasn't Witness Nikola Koljevic who was

 8     mentioned, rather, Witness Simic.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon, are you able to help?

10              Oh, yes, witness Simic should be -- thank you.

11             Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We thank you once again for your consideration,

14     Mr. Simic, and apologise for the inconvenience we're causing you.

15             Mr. Saxon.

16                           WITNESS:  MIODRAG SIMIC [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]

19        Q.   Good afternoon, General Simic.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Microphone, Mr. Saxon.

22             MR. SAXON:

23        Q.   Good afternoon, General Simic.

24        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor.

25        Q.   I'd like to take you back, please, to your testimony on Thursday

Page 10358

 1     when you were discussing an intelligence report with Mr. Lukic.  This was

 2     at page 10094 of the transcript.  And this particular intelligence report

 3     from the 2nd Administration was dated the 13th of July, 1995, and it

 4     discussed the events that were then occurring around Srebrenica.

 5             And the report described an unsuccessful attempt by members of

 6     the 28th Division of the Muslim Army to breakthrough towards Kladanj and

 7     Tuzla.

 8             And at line 22, Mr. Lukic asked you this:

 9             "General, for you at the operations centre, was the movement of

10     the 28th Division of the Muslim Army an important military movement at

11     the time?"

12             And you answered:  "Yes."

13             And then Mr. Lukic asked you why.  And at the top of page 10095

14     of the transcript, you explained that Srebrenica is near the border with

15     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

16             "And these forces that I described here during their withdrawal

17     and during their attempted breakthrough, part of them could have headed

18     across the border towards the FRY?"

19             And you continued:  "Therefore, it was important to take measures

20     of heightened security along the state border so that such armed persons

21     would not cross the border or, rather, even if they were to cross the

22     border, that we act in accordance with the border service rules."

23             Do you recall that testimony?

24        A.   I recall it fully, Mr. Prosecutor.

25        Q.   Very well.

Page 10359

 1             MR. SAXON:  And if we can, please, show the witness D227.

 2             And I have a copy in Serbo-Croat, which if this could be shown to

 3     Mr. Lukic or Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith before giving it to the witness, I'd be

 4     grateful.

 5             And perhaps we could increase the size of the font on the English

 6     side, it's quite small.

 7        Q.   General Simic, this was a daily operations report that Mr. Lukic

 8     showed to you last week.  It's from your former administration, from the

 9     operations centre.  It's dated 16th July, 1995, and we see this report is

10     from 0600 on the 15th of July to 0600 on the 16th of July, 1995.

11             MR. SAXON:  Can we scroll down in both languages, please.

12        Q.   And we see on the bottom of the first page, we see a subtitle,

13     number 2:  Situation at the state border.

14             MR. SAXON:  Could we now turn to the following page, please, in

15     both languages.

16        Q.   And, General Simic, if you just focus, please, at the top

17     paragraph on that second page.  It tells us this:

18             "At around 1600 hours on 15 July, a civilian called Petrovic from

19     Gornja Koviljaca village at elevation Trbusnica, 15th Loznica border

20     battalion said that a wounded Muslim soldier (earlier acquaintance)

21     called Resid Simonevic was staying at his place and was seeking medical

22     attention.  Petrovic said that this man was from Bratunac but the doctor

23     at the Banja Koviljaca medical centre recognised him as being from

24     Srebrenica.  Petrovic said that two other Muslim soldiers were having

25     lunch in Banja Koviljaca and had taken the bus to go to Mali Zvornik."

Page 10360

 1             And these communities Banja Koviljaca, Mali Zvornik, those are on

 2     the FRY side of the Drina River; isn't that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Then it continues:

 5             "Resid, the wounded man, said that about 20 to 30 Muslims (men

 6     and women) were waiting in the Kozluk village sector and that they would

 7     try to enter the FRY after night-fall."

 8             And now the Kozluk village sector was on the Republika Srpska

 9     side of the Drina river, right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Sir, if we just stop here for a moment, this information provided

12     by a captured Muslim man was important enough to send from the VJ border

13     unit up the VJ chain of command and to be included in the daily OPs

14     report of the 1st Administration of the VJ General Staff.  Correct?

15        A.   Not the 1st Administration of the army's General Staff, rather,

16     the operations centre of the VJ Main Staff.

17             Now, the fact that the operations centre falls within the

18     1st Administration is a different matter.  It is of service to the chief

19     of the General Staff and the General Staff in general, in collecting,

20     assessing, and processing information.

21        Q.   All right.  And so the answer to my question, though, would be a

22     yes, wouldn't it?  This information about the wounded man and that 20 to

23     30 Muslims who were waiting in Kozluk to enter the FRY after night-fall

24     was important enough to be included in the daily report of the operations

25     centre.  That's what we see here.  Right?

Page 10361

 1        A.   That's what the assessment of the duty officers was at the time.

 2     That it was relevant, and that's why it was included in the operative

 3     report.  And I said that the shift included two officers and one being

 4     the superior, and they had the rank of a colonel, and they would be the

 5     ones assessing information.

 6        Q.   All right.  General, in light of the measures of heightened

 7     security along the state border that you described earlier in your

 8     testimony, starting on the afternoon of the 15th of July, 1995, the VJ

 9     border units in the Drina river valley would have focussed more attention

10     on the area of Kozluk village, on the other side of the Drina river,

11     wouldn't they?

12        A.   No.  Heightened security along the length of the border with

13     Republika Srpska was in place.  However, there was no special attention

14     being attached to these very individuals crossing the border.  Rather,

15     there were certain sections where people were expected to cross the

16     border.  Patrols were dispatched or ambushes set.  We wouldn't send a

17     unit from the depth of the territory in order to take up positions along

18     the border.  I think that we are viewing the matter somewhat differently.

19        Q.   Well, let me follow along, if I can, on -- on -- follow along

20     your response.

21             You said that there were certain sections where people were

22     expected to cross the border.

23             And so at 1600 hours on the 15th of July, the VJ border unit was

24     informed that in the area of Kozluk village in Republika Srpska, there

25     was a group of Muslims who would try to cross the border after

Page 10362

 1     night-fall.  And so wouldn't some attention have been paid to that area

 2     of the border, across from Kozluk village, if there was "heightened

 3     security," to use your term?

 4        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, let us clarify a methodological matter.

 5             It is up to the source of the information, and this was taken

 6     over from intelligence sources.  The information reached us in the

 7     evening.  Now, was the information immediately conveyed to the border

 8     units or not is a different matter.  We took the information from the

 9     report we received in the evening which was normally analysed at 2100

10     hours, and this was on the 15th.  But in -- independently of this report,

11     we had heightened our security along the length of the border with the

12     Republika Srpska.  We've already explained what heightened security

13     meant.  We did not deploy units along the length of the border.  It was

14     merely at certain sections of the border.  I don't recall the dates now,

15     but we have seen these reports.

16             Heightened security was exercised by the border units themselves

17     at various points.  I said that there was a border belt which was 100

18     metres deep.  It takes an infantry soldier to run the distance in a

19     minute or two.  Beyond the 100-metre belt we have restricted powers in

20     terms of intervening, and that's why the ambushes are set within the

21     border belt and not beyond.

22        Q.   General, according to --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Rather, page 17, line 5 it says "an

25     infantry soldier," whereas the witness used the term "pedestrian."

Page 10363

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And are you able to help us, Mr. Lukic, or even

 2     the witness, with the last word on that same line, distance in a ...

 3             In a minute.  Okay.  Yeah.  As I understand, he said:  "In a

 4     minute or two."  One minute or two.  That's what I heard the

 5     interpretation go.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Interpreter.

 8             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 9             MR. SAXON:

10        Q.   You see, General Simic, at least in the English version of this

11     document at the top of page 2 we're told that the 15th Loznica border

12     battalion received this information.  And so what I'm trying to explore

13     with you is if a border battalion near the Drina river at that time was

14     informed that there was a group of Muslims who planned to cross the river

15     at a particular area they were at a level -- the border battalion was at

16     a level of heightened security, wouldn't that border battalion or a piece

17     of it, focus some of its attention on that part of the river?

18        A.   You can see from the text, sir, that that border battalion and

19     the soldier told them how he came there and that they knew.  But on a

20     case to case basis we don't issue an order for us to be running from the

21     General Staff and issue commands.  Their general task was to secure the

22     border in that sector.  So there are no more interventions by the General

23     Staff or the army command.  There's no need again to place line of

24     soldiers preventing people from crossing over.  If there's civilians, I

25     mean, they will cross over, they will violate the border regime, they

Page 10364

 1     will be caught, handed over to the MUP organs, and handed on for further

 2     processing, and that is where the authority of the army ends.  That is

 3     all that I can say about that.

 4        Q.   Mr. Simic, I didn't ask you if this required an additional

 5     intervention by the General Staff or the Army Command.  I simply asked

 6     you if the border battalion was on, what you referred to as "heightened

 7     security measures."  Then given this information, logically, the border

 8     battalion might have focussed some of its attention on the Kozluk section

 9     of this --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  This is the third time Mr. Saxon has asked the

12     question.  I think at this point it is appropriate to intervene and say

13     asked and answered as an objection.

14             MR. SAXON:  It has not been answered, Your Honour, I'm sorry.  My

15     question has not been answered.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Question allowed.

17             MR. SAXON:

18        Q.   Can you answer my question, General?

19        A.   Sir, if the General Staff were to deal with ad hoc events from

20     hour to hour this would be endless.  They received the order for

21     heightened security measures at the state border.  It's a question of the

22     battalion or -- or company, or the garrison commander which organs he

23     would send where for those purposes.  This is something that the General

24     Staff would not be involved in further.  So I don't really know how else

25     to answer this question.

Page 10365

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I may, Your Honour.  I believe that Mr. Saxon

 2     is mistaken.  He may not have gotten the answer that he wanted, but he

 3     certainly asked the question and received an answer.

 4             He asked the question beginning at line -- page 15, line 19 and

 5     more specifically he said referring to line 22 -- 21:

 6             "The VJ border units in the Drina river valley would have

 7     focussed more attention on the area of Kozluk village, on the other side

 8     of the Drina river, wouldn't they?

 9             "A.  No.  Heightened security along the length of the border with

10     Republika Srpska was in place."

11             And then the witness goes on.  So he has received an answer to

12     the question.  It may not be the answer that he wishes.  But he has

13     received an answer.

14             MR. SAXON:  Well, the thing is, Your Honour, I then asked a

15     follow-up question based on the answer of the witness.  And that's at

16     page 16, starting at line 6.

17             And then I got a response, a lengthy response, regarding

18     methodology that did not answer my question.  And that's where we are

19     now.  And I still have not received an answer to my question.

20             But I will move on, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]  "... at 1600 hours on

22     the 15th of July, the VJ border unit was informed that in the area of

23     Kozluk village in Republika Srpska, there was a group of Muslims who

24     would try to cross the border after night-fall.  And so wouldn't some

25     attention have been paid to that area of the border, across the Kozluk

Page 10366

 1     village, if there was 'heightened security,' to use your term?"

 2             Now, my first problem with that question is that it is

 3     speculative; it is not factual.  And it can only be answered by people

 4     who were along the border, if you must get a factual answer.  But I'm not

 5     going into that.  That is not the basis of the objection.

 6             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I have heard the objection, I've heard

 7     Your Honour and I'm going to move on.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

 9             MR. SAXON:

10        Q.   In this case, General Simic, General Perisic has agreed that:

11             "On the 15th or 16th of July, 1995, VRS or MUP -- and/or MUP

12     soldiers transported about 500 Bosnian Muslim males to an isolated place

13     near Kozluk and summarily executed them with automatic weapons.  These

14     Bosnian Muslim men had been captured from the column of men retreating

15     from the Srebrenica enclave or separated in Potocari.

16             "On the 16th July, 1995, VRS soldiers buried the victims of the

17     executions in a mass grave nearby."

18             That has been agreed to by the parties in this case.

19             Do you know, sir, if and when VJ units reported this massacre of

20     500 Bosnian Muslim males that occurred near the village of Kozluk on the

21     15th or 16th July?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that this question has not

24     put fairly and that the witness should have been told that the agreement

25     was made based on agreed facts.

Page 10367

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You see, that's my problem, Mr. Saxon.  You've

 2     told the witness that this is an agreed fact, and then your question then

 3     says, does he know when the VJ units reported.

 4             They're not saying they saw.  They say they are agreeing to the

 5     fact that it has been proposed.

 6             Look at -- look at your question at page 21, line -- starting

 7     from line 4.  You are suggesting that the VJ units knew -- either somehow

 8     knew about it or observed it and therefore reported it.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Well, I will rephrase the question, and I will ask

10     him if he is aware whether VJ units learned of this.

11        Q.   General Simic, are you aware whether VJ units became aware of

12     this execution of 500 Bosnian Muslims outside of Kozluk?

13        A.   I can confirm that I learned about it if you showed me a report

14     by my official organs where the General Staff officially informed about

15     that.  I -- until I see that, I really cannot confirm it, and I don't

16     know where these facts come from.

17             I'm responsible for -- for the soldiers, for the border security.

18     If that was something that they did, then I probably would have had to

19     have known about it.  But I would like to see the report on it indicating

20     when this was established.

21        Q.   And in your memory, do you have any knowledge or recollection of

22     receiving such a report?

23        A.   I do not have any recollection of that, no.

24             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness, I believe we have an

25     extra copy of the photograph, 65 ter 4310.02.  And if we can call that up

Page 10368

 1     on the ELMO, please.  If the usher could assist, please.

 2             I'm sorry, I meant to say e-court, not on the ELMO.

 3        Q.   General Simic, are you familiar at all with the Kozluk area?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Do you recognise any part of this photograph on the upper

 6     left-hand side?

 7        A.   I recognise the terrain the river is flowing through.  And then

 8     in the upper right-hand corner you can see the outline of a settlement,

 9     but I really cannot be sure of that.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. SAXON:  I will withdraw this photograph now.

12             I'm going to move now to another topic.

13             Actually, no, before I move on --

14        Q.   Automatic weapons fire used to shoot 500 individuals, that makes

15     a lot of noise, doesn't it, General?

16        A.   If you have in mind that there was combat in that area and that a

17     breakthrough was attempted, who, among the border guards could have

18     assumed that something was happening there.  I don't know if that's what

19     you're aiming at.  That or combat that is legal in terms of military

20     regulations.

21             I mean, really, I cannot answer this we with the proviso that

22     they probably did hear.  I mean, not probably but had to have heard.  But

23     a soldier on the border in a forest on guard is unable to conclude what

24     is happening, and we have to place ourselves in a real situation in the

25     area where this was actually happening not as if we were looking at it

Page 10369

 1     now and saying, well, here this is what's happening over there, or this

 2     is what happened over there.

 3        Q.   And soldiers in a forest who hear a lot of firing report that, or

 4     they're supposed to, aren't they, particularly if they're at a level of

 5     heightened security?

 6        A.   Sir, you're absolutely correct.  They were there, entrenched in

 7     the forest, watching, observing.  Perhaps they had binoculars.  Often

 8     they didn't have binoculars along the border.  The border had just been

 9     established.  There were no border posts.  The border-line was not

10     defined.  It was an improvised thing still.  So whatever they were able

11     to hear would be something that they would also report.  There was

12     shooting on a daily basis, so he couldn't really determine what was going

13     on with that firing or fire today or yesterday.  As far as he is

14     concerned, it would be shooting between two armies.

15        Q.   I'm going to move on.

16             MR. SAXON:  Can we show the witness what is Exhibit D224, please.

17     And I've got a copy to show to counsel before it is given to the witness.

18             And if we could increase the size of the English, please.

19        Q.   General Simic, on Thursday, Mr. Lukic showed you this document.

20     It's a report from the 2nd Administration of the Army of Republika

21     Srpska -- excuse me, it's a report from the 2nd Administration of the

22     sector for operations and staff affairs of the VJ General Staff dated the

23     14th of July, 1995.  And at pages 10097 to 10099 on Thursday, you

24     confirmed to Mr. Lukic that the information about the VRS offensive

25     against Zepa was important enough to enter into the report of the duty

Page 10370

 1     OPs centre of the VJ General Staff.

 2             MR. SAXON:  Can we scroll down in both languages, please, and

 3     focus on the last paragraph for those following in English, where it

 4     says:

 5             "In the Zepa enclave, the Muslim Army rejected a VRS request for

 6     peaceful demilitarization.  After the expiry of the deadline for

 7     compliance with the request, at 1100 hours, the VRS launched an attack on

 8     the Zepa enclave in order to take it and put it under VRS control."

 9             Are you following me?

10        A.   Absolutely, yes.

11        Q.   If this information about the VRS attack on the Zepa enclave was

12     important enough to enter into the daily report of the duty OPs centre,

13     then, logically, the VRS offensive against the Srebrenica enclave that

14     began in July 1995 would also have been at least reported to the duty OPs

15     centre.  Don't you agree?

16        A.   I would have to look at the daily combat report of the 15th,

17     whether it was entered or not.  But, again, I'm saying that it's a

18     question of the person processing the daily operations report.  This is a

19     report by the intelligence administration.  They meet at 2100 hours at

20     the operations centre.  They analyse all the information that arrives,

21     and then they make the decision about what is important to be noted in

22     the daily operations report for the chief of the General Staff.

23             I can only tell you now that, in any case, it's both yes and no.

24     It's important and it's not important.  Why important?  Because it is

25     happening near the border and could, during combat, result in a number of

Page 10371

 1     armed people from the other side crossing the border.  It's not important

 2     from the aspect of the fact that we have already taken adequate measures

 3     in respect of the border.

 4             To be more explicit, I cannot really say yes or no until I look

 5     at the daily operations report.

 6        Q.   I'm going to stop there, General Lukic [sic].  Thank you very

 7     much for your time and for your patience.

 8             MR. SAXON:  And, Your Honour, those are all the questions that I

 9     have.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

11             Mr. Lukic, any re-examination?

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] General Simic, once more, good afternoon.

15        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.

16        Q.   Well, I just want to tell you that we will not be spending much

17     more time in this courtroom.  You would be able to move out and go back

18     to your home, to your family soon.

19             I'm going to go back to the Drina Plan to what Mr. Saxon spent

20     most of his time discussing with you.  Mr. Saxon showed you a document

21     yesterday.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at document 1562

23     on the screen, please.

24        Q.   Mr. Simic, I don't have a -- hard copies of those documents, but

25     I think we are going to go through them very quickly.  You would be able

Page 10372

 1     to see it on the screen.  Maybe during the break we will be able to do

 2     something.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is a P exhibit, 1562.

 4             We'll wait a little bit.

 5        Q.   Let me see if I do have a hard copy for you.

 6        A.   Well, I've already seen the document, so it's clear to me.

 7        Q.   This document was shown to you by Mr. Saxon yesterday when you

 8     were looking at the documents of the 1st Krajina Corps relating to the

 9     Drina Plan, and I'm going add, of the Army of the Republika Srpska.

10             I'm interested in the following.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll the document up a

12     little bit, please.

13        Q.   Mr. Saxon showed this to you.  And can you see the signatures at

14     the bottom.  On the left-hand side, we have something that I am unable to

15     read.  It says "submitted by" and then there's the signature of the

16     person.

17             Actually, let us look at the right-hand corner of the document

18     first to see who received it.

19             Can you read who received the list?

20        A.   In my copy it says Miletic.

21        Q.   You've already replied to Saxon that Mr. Miletic was the main

22     operative in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, your

23     counterpart in the General Staff of the 1st Administration of the VJ.

24             Does this document show that the documents of the 1st Krajina

25     Corps representing the excerpts of the VRS plan are returned to the

Page 10373

 1     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska?

 2             MR. SAXON:  Objection.  This's a leading question.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. ...

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that I did not, because it

 5     says:  "Received by and submitted by."

 6             Your Honours, I was just, I think that I just ...

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... the form of

 8     your question is still leading.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  I apologise.

10        Q.   General, will you please tell us, what does this document say?

11        A.   I've said this before, and I'm repeating this again using this

12     particular example.  The command of the 1st Krajina Corps thus received

13     an excerpt from the plan on the use of the Main Staff of the Army of

14     Republika Srpska which relates to the 1st Krajina Corps.

15             Once the command of the 1st Krajina Corps developed its

16     documents, it sent a copy for keeping to the Main Staff, and that is

17     precisely this list of documents of the 1st Krajina Corps submitted to

18     the General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

19             I asserted the whole time that all levels of command develop

20     plans of use in two copies.  One remains at the command, the unit

21     implementing the assignment, and the other copy is sent to the superior

22     command, and you can see that very clearly here.

23        Q.   Is this the proper procedure which should be followed, that is,

24     that excerpts are sent to the subordinate command, and a copy is

25     submitted to the superior command?

Page 10374

 1        A.   Yes, that is the correct methodology.

 2        Q.   General, are you familiar whether the Drina Corps signed by

 3     Mr. Lilic - this is P215 - were excerpts done for that plan which were

 4     submitted to the subordinate units?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did you see a copy of a report or excerpts like this of the

 7     subordinate unit which was returned to the person who actually drafted

 8     the directive?

 9        A.   No.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt you a little bit, Mr. Lukic.  Page

11     28, line 11, I think you said:  "Are you familiar with the Drina Corps

12     plan signed by Mr. Lilic."

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I see the error.  I see the

14     error.  I correct myself.  It's not the Drina Corps.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was thinking of the Drina Plan

17     signed by Mr. Lilic.  So the word "corps" is not necessary here, we're

18     talking about the Drina Plan.  The Drina Plan is referred to very

19     frequently.  So I'm going be referring to it in terms of P215, and I'm

20     also going to call it the directive on the use of the Army of Yugoslavia,

21     the Army of Republika Srpska, and the Serbian Army of the Krajina signed

22     by Mr. Lilic, and I'm going to repeat my question to be precise.

23        Q.   Have you ever seen any kind of excerpt returned by any of the

24     subordinate units to the body that drafted the plan in the General Staff?

25     This is what I'm asking you.

Page 10375

 1        A.   Mr. Lukic, nobody was able to send excerpts unless they had

 2     previously been given the entire plan by Mr. Lilic.

 3             I said at the outset that the directive is one of the integral

 4     parts of the plan, but on its own it doesn't mean anything.

 5        Q.   Had an excerpt been sent to a subordinate unit, the list as we

 6     see it now on our screen, would have to have been returned to Mr. Lilic.

 7        A.   Yes.  The list that I'm holding in my hands right now which

 8     relates to the 1st Krajina Corps, it's on the basis of this that both

 9     Main Staffs would have had to produce their own plan of use and would

10     have had to send this back to Mr. Lilic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have our break now, Your

12     Honours?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, we can and we may.

14             We will come back at 4.00.

15             Court adjourned.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] General, we have got hold of a hard copy.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to P215, which is

22     directive on the use of the Army of Yugoslavia, the Army of Republika

23     Srpska, and the Serbian Army of the Krajina.

24        Q.   Could we have page 1 shown of this document, which you discussed

25     with Mr. Saxon.

Page 10376

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we, in fact, turn to page 17 of

 2     both the B/C/S and English versions.

 3        Q.   General, this is the page marked 16 in your copy, and that's the

 4     page where we have Mr. Lilic's signature.

 5             Following Roman numeral VI where you have the heading, what

 6     follows under VII are annexes.  They cover various fields of activity.

 7             Under III, we have intelligence situation.  Under IV, we have the

 8     intelligence plan.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now turn to page 21 of the

10     B/C/S version, and that's page 37 of the English version.

11             I seem to have mentioned the wrong number.

12             Give me a moment, please.

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There it is.  And the B/C/S.

15             Could we have the same page in the B/C/S, the one that we're

16     looking at right now.

17        Q.   General, this is about the intelligence situation, Annex number

18     3.  Could you please try and find it in your copy.

19        A.   I have.

20        Q.   We don't have the appropriate B/C/S page, but it will follow

21     shortly, I think.

22             A moment ago, under Annexes I read under III, intelligence

23     situation.

24             Can you tell us in the upper right-hand corner what is it stated?

25     What sort of annex is this?

Page 10377

 1        A.   Mr. Lukic, in the upper right-hand corner, we have National

 2     Defence, state secret, Drina, annex number 3, copy number 1.

 3        Q.   Is that Annex 3 referred to in the earlier page, which was page

 4     17?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now skip several pages and

 7     look at Annex 4.

 8             That's page 38 of the B/C/S and 48 of the English version, Your

 9     Honour.

10        Q.   Annexes 3 and 4, were they signed by anyone?

11        A.   On page 4 of Annex 4, one can see that it's states that the chief

12     of the Yugoslav Army for the SVK and the VRS as well.  We have the

13     signature lines in place, but nobody's signed there.

14        Q.   What does this tell you, General?

15        A.   It tells me that the plan on the use of forces was not fully

16     complete, and, therefore, not fully valid.

17        Q.   Thank you.  We will not be using e-court.  Rather, we will be

18     using page 16 where all the various annexes were listed, General.

19             You can see under 11, it is stated:  "Security support."

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps for your benefit, Your

21     Honour, that is page 17 of the B/C/S and page 17 of the English.

22        Q.   Under 11 it says: "Security support."

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... security

24     support or intelligence support, under 11?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that the translation is

Page 10378

 1     wrong, because what it says is "security support."

 2             You've observed it rightly because what -- what we have is

 3     intelligence support plan is under 4.

 4        Q.   So this is what we under 11, General.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now turn to the page where

 6     we have Annex 11, which is in the B/C/S version, 63, and in the English,

 7     82.

 8        Q.   For your benefit, General, that's heading:  Security support.

 9     And will you see it says Annex 11.  I don't know if you can follow.

10        A.   I have found it.

11        Q.   What can you read in the upper right-hand corner, General?

12        A.   Mr. Lukic, as with the earlier annex, it states:  National

13     Defence, state secret, R, Drina, annex number 11, copy number 1.

14        Q.   Is that Annex 11 referred to in the list of annexes?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Let us skip four pages ahead, since what is to follow is the plan

17     of security measures.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will be looking at page 3, that's

19     right; and in the English version, that's page 85, I think, Your Honours.

20             Thank you.

21        Q.   What do we see on this page, General?

22        A.   On page 3 of Annex 11, we can see two columns.  The left-hand

23     column reads:  "Drafted by."

24             And then below the line, we have for the Army of Yugoslavia,

25     Hristivoje Jocic; still below for the Serbian Army of Krajina, Vuk

Page 10379

 1     Dmitrovic; for the Army of Republika Srpska, Jovica Karanovic, and typed

 2     up by Marica Pavlovic.  We don't see their signatures though.

 3             In the column on the right-hand side, it is written for the Army

 4     of Yugoslavia for the Army of Republika Srpska for the Serbian Army of

 5     the Krajina.  Chiefs of security administrations of the respective armies

 6     were supposed to sign there.

 7        Q.   Is this a valid document, as it stands now, without any

 8     signatures, and can it be acted upon as such?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   In order for this document to be implemented, can anyone be given

11     an excerpt of this document or be asked to return a copy as a follow-up

12     of the excerpt if there are no signatures here?

13        A.   No.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is yet another annex, Your

15     Honour.  We will have to be moving into private session.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

17             No, don't.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Apologies, truly.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   At page 17, let us look at Annex number 10 which is entitled:

22     Logistics support.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to page 54 of the B/C/S

24     version in e-court and page 70 of the English version.

25        Q.   General, I don't know if you're following me.

Page 10380

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What can you read in the upper right-hand corner?

 3        A.   National Defence of People's Defence, state secret, R, Drina,

 4     annex number 10, copy number 1.

 5        Q.   Look at the annex and the extent of pages that it has, and can

 6     you tell us has it been signed by anyone?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is a document I would like to

10     show to the witness as a follow-up on what the Prosecutor asked the

11     witness about the Drina Plan.  We received the document from the OTP as

12     part of their disclosures in the past couple of days.  The only thing I'm

13     not certain about is whether the document is confidential or not, whether

14     there are any protective measures.  Perhaps we should move into private

15     session so that I can verify this with the OTP.

16             I have just been told that they were informed that the document

17     did not have any protective measures.

18             This is document marked by the OTP as XN-100.  Since it's a

19     rather large document, it is page 81 of the B/C/S version.  There is no

20     English translation of the document, and I have produced several copies

21     of a draft translation for your benefit, Your Honours, and for the

22     Prosecution.

23             I will also have a copy for Mr. Simic.

24             Page 81.

25        Q.   When, during your examination-in-chief, Mr. Simic -- or, rather,

Page 10381

 1     let me give you some time to look at the document.

 2        A.   Yes, I produced the document.

 3        Q.   This is my question for you.  During your examination-in-chief,

 4     you explained to us that the -- a separate certification needs to be

 5     compiled by all those taking part in producing the document.  Or let me

 6     just correct the interpretation.  The witness said I am quite clear on

 7     the document.  That's page 35, line 9.  He didn't say that he produced

 8     the document.

 9             As we can see, this is a document of the Serbian Army of the

10     Krajina from a different period all together, the 17th of February, 1995.

11             What I'm interested in is the format, General.  Judging by its

12     format, what sort of document would you say this is?

13        A.   This is a statement.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Saxon.

15             MR. SAXON:  If the transcript in English that I'm reading is

16     correct at page 35 line 12, this appears to be a question arising out of

17     examination-in-chief.  And is that a mistranslation or a --

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.  Let me just clarify this.

19     During the examination-in-chief, I asked the General -- or, rather, the

20     General himself was explaining what was involved in the production of the

21     directive.  Now, what I'm asking has to do about the cross-examination

22     conducted by Mr. Saxon and in relation to the issue of whether the

23     Drina Plan directive was properly produced, and this was something that

24     was extensively discussed by Mr. Saxon.  So I want to ask the witness, in

25     relation to this document --

Page 10382

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... so you want

 2     to correct -- what line was it, Mr. Saxon?

 3             MR. SAXON:  Line 12.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Line 12.

 5             MR. SAXON:  Page 35.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, yes.  Do you want to correct the word

 7     "examination-in-chief" in line 12 to "cross-examination?"  Is that what

 8     are you saying?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.  I did state this correctly.

10     However, the question I wish to put to the witness relates to the line of

11     questioning arising from Mr. Saxon's cross-examination.  And this --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

13     cross-examination, not to your questions in-chief?

14             MR. SAXON:  And if I may, Your Honour, certainly this document

15     was not used during cross-examination by the Prosecution.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We got this document.  I saw it for

17     the first time, perhaps we got it a couple of days before the examination

18     began of Mr. Simic by the Prosecution.  This is the entire set of

19     documents that we received at the time when I had already completed the

20     proofing notes.

21             This is number one.  But this is not my reason.  It's possible

22     that we received the documents a few days before that.  This is that big

23     disclosure we received.  It's correct that the document was not used in

24     the cross-examination, since Mr. Saxon put a whole line of questions

25     about the procedure, how the Army of Republika Srpska drafted its

Page 10383

 1     Drina Plan.  That is why I would like to put this question to the

 2     witness, whether this document is part of the procedure as it is usually

 3     followed when such a plan is drafted, and whether he, while he was doing

 4     his work, did something like this or, rather, signed it.  The whole line

 5     of Mr. Saxon refers to that.  The four sessions of the hearing boiled

 6     down to showing documents about what the Army of Republika Srpska did as

 7     far as the implementation of the directives is concerned.

 8             I think this directly arises from the cross-examination by

 9     Mr. Saxon.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

11             MR. SAXON:  Well, if that -- if the purpose of Mr. Lukic's

12     re-direct examination is to counter the points or arguments that I made

13     with the documents that I showed the witness during cross-examination,

14     Prosecution believes the proper way to do that is with those same

15     documents.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that I am not obliged to

17     follow the documents of the Prosecution in my re-direct but the topics of

18     the Prosecution.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, let me ask you a question.  To the

20     extent that the Prosecution is allowed to use documents in

21     cross-examination after resting its case that were not used in

22     examination-in-chief, is the Defence not accorded the same right or

23     privilege where it uses the same -- similar -- other documents also for

24     the purpose of either buttressing what they have said or contradicting

25     what the Prosecution position is?

Page 10384

 1             MR. SAXON:  If -- Your Honour, if the particular document will

 2     buttress their position or contradict the Prosecution position from those

 3     new documents, then I will concede Your Honours' point, yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.  If that is the purpose, the purpose

 6     is to buttress your position or to contradict the -- the contradiction by

 7     the Prosecution?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9        Q.   Sir, what does this document talk about?

10        A.   This is a strictly formalised document speaking about the

11     statement given by the person that is participating in the drafting of

12     the plan of usage.  That is that solemn declaration in the army that a

13     person is working on the plan of usage and that they would respect and

14     keep state secrets.

15        Q.   Are you aware that you or anybody else who worked on the

16     Drina Plan that I am going to refer to as P215 to be precise, signed such

17     a statement, and did they submit it to anyone?

18        A.   No.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document,

20     Your Honours.

21             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, if the Chamber is minded to admit this

22     document, we would ask that it be admitted marked for identification,

23     since we do not yet have an English translation.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, Mr. Lukic indicated that this is just a

25     draft translation by himself.  Okay.  The document is admitted into

Page 10385

 1     evidence, marked for identification.  May it please be given an exhibit

 2     number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit Number D238, marked for identification.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   General, while you were at the post you were at in the 1st

 8     Administration in the General Staff sector of the Army of Yugoslavia, did

 9     you hear or were you informed by anyone that the Army of Republika Srpska

10     developed or made its Drina Plan, adopted the Drina Plan?

11        A.   First of all, I would have to know about it because, at the same

12     time, at the head of the organisational units where all of these plans

13     are kept, in view of the fact that President Lilic signed the directive,

14     and if the plans were to come from the Main Staffs of both armies, since

15     he does not have his own premises, the General Staff of the Army of

16     Yugoslavia, as his service, would naturally be kept -- those plans would

17     naturally be kept just like any other plans are kept.

18             So I would have to know about that plan in the same way that I

19     would have to know about all the other plans that are being kept there.

20        Q.   General, since you were informed about the preparation of the

21     directives and you were informed about it, did anybody show you or

22     perhaps were you shown earlier any document of the Army of the Serbian

23     Army of Krajina that referred to any aspect of the Drina Plan?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   For a moment, can we --

Page 10386

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second.  The interpreter said Serbian Army

 2     of Krajina relating to the Drina Plan.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.  That was my

 4     question.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We already looked at the VRS so my

 7     question now is ...

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues]... thank you.

 9     Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we move to private session for a

11     moment, please?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

13     [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir.

16             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if we would need to move

18     to closed session, just because of the possibility that the document

19     would be broadcast outside.  I would like to us look at the document on

20     the screen, but I would not wish to have the document broadcast outside.

21     We're talking about P1564.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you guide us, Mr. Registrar.  Does closed

23     session make sure that the document is --

24             May we move into closed session then.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 10387

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm told it is okay with private session.

 2             You said it is P1564?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  That's right.  That's right.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Perhaps we should have looked, General, in order

 5     to avoid confusion, at P215.  We don't have to put it on the screen, but

 6     you will confirm this for me.  These are the attachments that go with the

 7     Drina Plan.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see what goes under number 5.

 9        A.   5 is the communications plan.

10        Q.   That is correct.  This document that we have in front of us, can

11     you please tell us what the heading says?

12        A.   It says:  People's Defence, state secret, Drina, copy number 1,

13     supplement or attachment number 5.

14        Q.   Is that supposed to be the attachment that accompanies P215,

15     except we have a different number?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you please turn to page 2 now.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the B/C/S and English

19     versions on the screen.

20        Q.   What does this document tell you, General?

21        A.   This is a list of documents comprising this communications plan.

22     This is a list of the documents.  It's headed:  List of documents of the

23     communications plan.

24        Q.   Is this a valid document?  Was it submitted to anyone?  Did

25     anybody receive this document?  Look at the bottom of the page.

Page 10388

 1        A.   There is no person listed as submitting it or receiving it, and

 2     there is to distribution list either on this document.

 3        Q.   This document, without such data, can that go into distribution?

 4        A.   No document without a signature can be valid for further

 5     distribution.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us go back to open session,

 8     please, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Another question on the same topic.

15             Can we show the witness D155, please.  It's P1555, three 5s.

16     Yes, right -- good.

17        Q.   You've looked at this document already with Mr. Saxon.  This is

18     an excerpt from the direction -- from the directive, Drina, on the use of

19     the Army of Republika Srpska.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a problem.  I don't have the

21     required document on the screen, and I think I did give a correct

22     reference.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is an excerpt from the directive

25     on the use of the Army of Republika Srpska, P1555.

Page 10389

 1        Q.   You already discussed this document with Mr. Saxon.  I'm going to

 2     point to page 17 in the B/C/S and page 7 in the English.

 3             General, on your copy, that would be page 8.  I'm going to read

 4     the middle part and ask you to comment on that.  It says in this

 5     directive of the Army of Republika Srpska, Drina:

 6             "In the event of the aggression by the Croatian Army on the

 7     Republic of Serbian Krajina or external aggression against the Republika

 8     Srpska and the other Serbian states, by a decisive defence from the

 9     border itself and on all the front lines, prevent rapid enemy

10     penetration, the cutting off the RS territory and crushing of the Army of

11     Republika Srpska.  Immediately send and resubordinate a part of the

12     forces (six brigades) to the Main Staff of the Serbian Army of the

13     Krajina to be engaged as decided by the commander of the Main Staff of

14     the Army of the Serbian Krajina.  While part of the forces (two brigades)

15     are to immediately cross the Sava river, take mounts Papuk and Pakracka

16     Gora in coordinated action with the 8th Corps of the Serbian Army of

17     Krajina and create conditions for further offensive operations."

18             General, this is my question to you:  We all know in this

19     courtroom, we have heard evidence and you also testified, that in early

20     May 1995 the Croatian Army - I'm going to use the term - attacked the

21     area of the Serbian Republic of Krajina in an operation called "Flash."

22     Are you aware that when the Serbian -- the Republic of the Serbian

23     Krajina --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please be asked to repeat his

25     question.

Page 10390

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, just a second.  The interpreters would like

 2     you to please restate your question.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

 4        Q.   Are you aware that when the -- when Croatia attacked the Serbian

 5     Republic of the Krajina in the Flash operation in 1995 in May, that the

 6     Army of Republika Srpska sent any unit or resubordinated any of its units

 7     to the Serbian Army of the Krajina, as it was supposed to have done,

 8     according to what I have just read to you?

 9        A.   Had it been like that, Mr. Lukic, the situation in Western

10     Slavonia would have been quite different.  Evidently, this did not

11     happen.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The short answer is [Microphone not activated]

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's try to go for the short answers all the

15     time.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   If there exists a directive, which we heard was one of the most

18     important documents for command and control, and if it envisaged for a

19     commander of a unit to take certain action and if the commander fails to

20     act upon the directive and in the part that refers to him, then there

21     should be some repercussions applied in relation to that commander?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

23             MR. SAXON:  That is clearly a leading question, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection is that it's clearly a leading

25     question.

Page 10391

 1             MR. SAXON:  Questions could be rephrased:  What happens if the

 2     commander fails to act upon the directive.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I accept that.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic [Microphone not activated]

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I may still be in the mode that I

 6     worked with for the past year.  I apologise.

 7        Q.   What are the consequences of the omission to implementing the

 8     provisions of the directive under the proviso that the directive holds

 9     the force that it does?

10        A.   The directive was produced in the month of December of 1994.  We

11     know when Flash took place.  The military and political situation

12     changed.  It was up to the commander of the Main Staff to decide whether

13     he was going to fully implement the directive in the relevant part or

14     not, which depended on the developments.  If the commanders refused to go

15     there, then that would be considered a crime, a criminal offence.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I will be moving to a different topic.  I have

17     finished with this line of questions related to the Drina Plan.

18             Mr. Saxon put a number of questions to you and showed a number of

19     documents to you which deal with the fact that the Army of Yugoslavia did

20     not conduct itself in accordance with the sanctions that were imposed by

21     the FRY in relation to Republika Srpska.  You will recall the documents

22     that were put to you on this issue.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You were also shown a document where the amount of 500.000 dinars

25     was mentioned as having been given to the Army of the Republika Srpska.

Page 10392

 1     Based on this, Mr. Saxon suggested that this was an indication of the

 2     fact that the sanctions had not been implemented in the way that had been

 3     publicly presented.  Do you recall?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at document P2817.  I

 6     have a hard copy for the General.

 7        Q.   General, please have a look at the document.  I'm interested in

 8     the first paragraph only, but you can read the entire document.

 9             This is a document which was signed by General Ratko Mladic in

10     November of 1994.  It's a document of the Main Staff of the Army of the

11     Republika Srpska, the sector for administration and personnel affairs.

12             Please follow me, and I'm going to be reading paragraph 1 and

13     asking for your comments.

14             The heading is:  Current status of professional servicemen and

15     civilians in the VRS.

16              "The abolishment of salaries for professional servicemen,

17     civilians, officers, and contract soldiers of the VRS has caused

18     difficult existential situation for their families.  Members of this army

19     consider the act to be immoral and absurd, especially because they are

20     fighting for the honourable cause of defending the Serbian people and

21     saving the Serbian state and not for anything else.  It is difficult to

22     foresee all of the individual suffering and reactions to this decision."

23             On reading the document, can you conclude if the sanctions were

24     actual or -- were real or not?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... it is not.

Page 10393

 1     Thank you, I'm sorry.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I hear the question again?  I

 3     was reading the text.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Based on what you've read, can you conclude that the sanctions

 6     that were imposed on Republika Srpska and the Army of Republika Srpska,

 7     were they really in place when it came to their salaries or not?

 8        A.   Yes.  They really were in place.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will have to move into private

11     session for the next topic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

13        [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You will also recall Mr. Saxon showing you a number of documents

19     concerning material aid being sent by the Republic of Serbia to the VRS

20     between the period of August and June.  We have the 19th of June, the 1st

21     of September, all of 1995.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

23             MR. SAXON:  I'm very sorry to interrupt but the translation reads

24     of the question:

25             "You will also recall Mr. Saxon showing you a number of documents

Page 10394

 1     concerning material aid being sent by the Republic of Serbia to the VRS."

 2             I guess Mr. Lukic is seeing the problem.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The Army of Yugoslavia was what I

 4     said.  I think I said that, but I apologise to the interpreters if they

 5     were unable to follow me.

 6        Q.   General, I will now show you a document.  This is P749, minutes

 7     from the 36th Session of the VSO.  I think that the document is under

 8     seal.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are in private session, are we

11     not?  [In English] P749.

12             [Interpretation] I will have to be reading from my copy.

13        Q.   Sit down, General.  I will be reading for your benefit.  Do not

14     worry.

15             This is minutes from the 36th Session of the VSO, held on the

16     12th of May, 1995.  If we turn to the next page, page 2 of the B/C/S,

17     which is, I think, the same page in English, and could we look at the

18     bottom part of the page.

19             This is Mr. Perisic speaking now where he says, among other

20     things:

21             "We believe that the Croatian Army, the GS, which I believe is

22     the Main Staff, will attack along the axis leading to Bihac in order to

23     cut off the RSK territory and execute the -- or implement the Z-4 plan

24     while P/S which is probably --"

25        A.   Auxiliary forces.

Page 10395

 1        Q.   Right, so what we had before were main forces probably.

 2             "Would go along the Baranja axis.  An attack by the HV can be

 3     expected by the middle of this month, depending mostly on the position of

 4     Croatia's sponsors."

 5             So I was quoting Mr. Perisic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the last page of the

 7     document where the VSO conclusions are listed.

 8             Could we have the previous page in the English version, my

 9     apologies.

10        Q.   I'm reading conclusion number 9:

11             "Lend certain assistance to the armies of the RSK and RS within

12     limits that do not compromise the combat readiness of the Army of

13     Yugoslavia."

14             General, this is a conclusion by the Supreme Defence Council

15     taken at its session held on the 12th of May, 1995.  Can you explain why

16     it was that the VSO took this decision, and what was the obligation on

17     the part of Mr. Perisic in relation to the VSO decision?

18        A.   The VSO's assessment was that the army needed to be assisted, and

19     the chief of the General Staff did not have the power, as I've already

20     said, to use the resources and assets without the decision of the

21     commander in-chief - in this case, that's the VSO.  That's why the

22     particular problem was raised by him, in order for him to get a certain

23     response.

24        Q.   We're talking about the 12th of May, 1995.  Was the attack on RSK

25     in the form of Flash a threat to the security of the Army of Yugoslavia?

Page 10396

 1        A.   By that time, on the 12th of May, Flash had already been

 2     finished.  What was to follow next was Baranja, the 11th -- the 11th

 3     Corps which borders directly with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  In

 4     that context assistance needed to be provided in order to avert any

 5     security risks for the FRY in order to prevent fire from spreading, so to

 6     speak, to the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up document - and let

 8     us stay in private session, Your Honour - P736 [sic].  These are minutes

 9     from the 39th Session of the Supreme Defence Council held on the 29th of

10     July, 1995.  763.

11             [In English] P763.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] General, the document is similar to the previous

13     one.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we turn to page 2 of the

15     English version, the beginning of the page, and the B/C/S version, we

16     will -- we will have to turn to the following page.

17        Q.   So, General, we have the minutes from the meeting of the Supreme

18     Defence Council held on 29th of July, 1995, which, under item 1 reads --

19     no, I'm sorry, I made a mistake.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to the previous page,

21     please.  We need the bottom part of the document, and the same goes for

22     the English version.

23             It reads:

24             "Item 1, the conclusions from the assessment of the current

25     military and political situation in the region and proposed measures for

Page 10397

 1     strengthening the security and defence of the Federal Republic of

 2     Yugoslavia were presented by the chief of the General Staff of the Army

 3     of Yugoslavia, Colonel General Momcilo Perisic.  According to the

 4     assessment of General Perisic with the development of the situation in

 5     the broader international arena and on the front line, the crisis in the

 6     territory of the former Yugoslavia had entered a critical stage

 7     characterised by an increasingly prominent orientation towards the war

 8     option."

 9             And then we have General Perisic speaking.

10             Could we turn to the following page in the B/C/S.  And without

11     reading the document, I will say that three variants are referred to

12     therein.  I need the same portion of the document in English.

13        Q.   I will read for you what General Perisic went on to say.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it's the next page in

15     English.  Mm-hm.

16             Your Honours, I will be reading the third paragraph in English.

17     All of this is Mr. Perisic speaking.

18             "All the three options described are unfavorable for RS and RSK.

19     Unless urgent and appropriate measures are taken on the political,

20     diplomatic, and military levels, attempts might even be made to draw the

21     FRY into the war."

22             And, finally, could we have the last page in both English and the

23     B/C/S where the Supreme Defence Council's conclusions are listed.

24        Q.   General, do you know when did Operation Storm take place?

25        A.   In the month of August of the same year, just as Flash, on the

Page 10398

 1     29th.

 2        Q.   This VSO session was held on 29th of July, 1995, and I will be

 3     reading conclusion number 4.

 4              "The Army of Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian

 5     Krajina should continue to be provided certain assistance within the

 6     limits that do not impair the combat readiness of the Army of

 7     Yugoslavia."

 8             Is such a VSO conclusion binding upon General Perisic?

 9        A.   Yes.  It is tantamount to an order issued to Mr. Perisic.

10        Q.   I have completed my examination of Mr. Simic.  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE DAVID:  General --

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DAVID:  General, on Friday, the 26th of February, at page

22     28, lines 22, 25; page 29, lines 1 to 10, you said:

23             "Mr. Prosecutor, once the JNA starting pulling out of BH, both

24     armies were established.  Some officers pull out members of the VJ, and

25     then those born in Republika Srpska were sent to that army through the

Page 10399

 1     30th and 40th Personnel Centres.  Those centres are organisational units

 2     of the personnel administration of the General Staff.  Their purpose was

 3     to have a register at one place of all those persons to enable them to

 4     claim their status-related rights."

 5             Do you remember that quotation of yours?  You remember what you

 6     said?

 7        A.   Your Honours, yes.  Absolutely.

 8             JUDGE DAVID:  [Previous translation continues] ... in addition to

 9     this purpose to have a register, were there any other purposes,

10     objectives, or functions that this Personnel Centres perform, according

11     to your experience and knowledge at the time?

12        A.   Your Honour, I did not manage those centres directly.  As far as

13     I know, their main function was the one that I described and that you

14     referred to just now.

15             JUDGE DAVID:  In your functions in the intelligence hierarchy of

16     the army, were you aware of any order, resolution, decree, establishing

17     those centres, the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres?  Were you ever

18     informed of any order, resolution, decree, establishing those centres?

19        A.   Your Honour, from talking with senior officers, I heard that

20     there was a decision by President Lilic and that, on the basis of that

21     decision the chief of the General Staff was obliged to form these

22     centres.  I did not see that personally in any documents.  This is not

23     something that falls under my jurisdiction.

24             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you.

25             Second question:  You said, in relation to the close relationship

Page 10400

 1     among the three armies, VJ, Serbian Krajina, and Republika Srpska, that

 2     it was in the interest of the Army of Yugoslavia, page 83, lines 4 to 9

 3     of yesterday, in order to prevent any possible surprises or threat to

 4     security.

 5             My question is:  Had the centres, Personnel Centres, play any

 6     role in fostering the close relationship among the three armies,

 7     according to your experience and/or knowledge?

 8        A.   The transformation from the JNA, and these relationships were

 9     forged from the JNA, so these Personnel Centres did not play a

10     significant role in forging close relationship between these three

11     armies.

12             JUDGE DAVID:  Additional question:  Did these centres aim also at

13     improving the combat readiness of the three armies in the field,

14     according to your experience and knowledge at the time?

15        A.   Your Honour, it is very difficult for me to reply.  If there is a

16     record of people who voluntarily apply to go there in order to implement

17     their entitlements, the very departure of those people there would

18     naturally improve the combat readiness of the units which they joined.

19             JUDGE DAVID:  Were you aware - additional question - of any

20     order, resolution, decision, of the General Staff of the VJ supporting,

21     encouraging these transfers on a selective manner encouraging these

22     transfers on a selected manner?  Yes or no?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE DAVID:  Could you give me an explanation of these measures,

25     if you are knowledgeable of them?  Elaboration, further elaboration.

Page 10401

 1     Please comment if you can.

 2        A.   Your Honour, there were talks with all the people who were from

 3     that area or had some kind of connection to that area through relations

 4     or something else, how it was necessary, and in the interest of the

 5     people for them to go there, but nobody was threatened that if they

 6     refused to go or if they did not accept this position by the General

 7     Staff or the chief that they would be subject to any kind of sanction.

 8             I personally in my administration have a general who was the

 9     chief of a section and who is from Republika Srpska.  He did not agree to

10     go there, and this was not something that proved to be an obstacle for

11     him to attain the rank of a general in the Army.  So I don't know whether

12     this is something that the public should know about or not.

13             JUDGE DAVID:  [Previous translation continues] ... some officers

14     that did not perform well in the field during the combat of the war were

15     returned to the VJ through the 30th or 40th Personnel Centres, were you

16     aware, because of failure on objectives of the war, in accomplishing

17     objective of the war?

18        A.   Your Honour, I am not aware of these matters.  I was not really

19     informed about that.  As an operative, I had major tasks to perform that

20     I was busy with during the day and during the night, so I'm not really

21     able to give you an answer about that.

22             JUDGE DAVID:  [Previous translation continues] ...

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any questions arising from the questions by the

24     Bench, Mr. Lukic?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one clarification.  Judge David,

Page 10402

 1     on page 53, line 19 said:  "In your functions in the intelligence

 2     hierarchy," and the witness did give an answer.

 3                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 4        Q.   Mr. Simic, were you in the operative or the intelligence

 5     hierarchy?

 6        A.   Yes, I did notice that word.  But I thought that His Honour meant

 7     my operative function, not intelligence function.  This is why I did not

 8     intervene.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

10             MR. SAXON:  Nothing, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Mr. Simic, we've come to the conclusion of your testimony.  I'm

13     sure you're looking forward to going back home.  Thank you so much for

14     coming to testify at the Tribunal, and you really stayed here for quite a

15     long time, much longer than expected.  And on behalf of the Tribunal,

16     thank you so much, and travel well back home.  You are now excused.  You

17     may stand down.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your

19     professional attitude.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The Defence is ready to call its next

24     witness, Mr. Nikolic.  I don't know if the time is sufficient to take

25     this witness out and to bring the next witness in.  Perhaps there isn't

Page 10403

 1     enough time for that.  Perhaps it would be better to go on a break.  I'm

 2     in your hands, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  We will take you in our hands and send

 4     you on a break and come back at a quarter to 6.00.

 5             Court adjourned.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.13 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 5.49 p.m.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, before you call the next witness, could

 9     we deal with a little point on housekeeping?

10             The cases of Seselj and Karadzic are not sitting tomorrow.  We

11     were originally not going to be sitting because there was no court

12     available.  Would the parties be in a position to sit tomorrow?  It looks

13     like it will have to -- if we do, it will be in the morning.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have been leading the witness we

15     have just finished with, and I will be leading the next witness.  In view

16     of the situation, I was planning to work on the proofing of the witness

17     tomorrow morning.  If you so decide, I will comply with your ruling and

18     lead the witness tomorrow.  Unfortunately, this is the way Mr. Guy-Smith

19     and I divided work so that I will be dealing with this next witness as

20     well.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... proofing

22     before he coming into testify?

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  By that he means not only the witness we're about

24     to see today but also the witness we will be seeing after the witness who

25     is to testify.  He has decided to take on a relatively heavy burden.

Page 10404

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He's a strong man, you can see.  Okay.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Indeed so.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It does seem as if, therefore, that it's not

 4     convenient for you to sit tomorrow morning.  Okay.  If that is the case,

 5     so be it.  We will then not sit.

 6             You may call the witness.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.  I

 8     call Mr. Stamenko Nikolic as our next Defence witness.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please make the declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Nikolic.  You may be

14     seated.  And good afternoon to you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good afternoon, Your

16     Honours.  I am honoured to extend my greetings to you and all the staff

17     present in the courtroom.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             Mr. Lukic.

20                           WITNESS:  STAMENKO NIKOLIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Will you please state your full name for the

24     record.

25        A.   Stamenko Nikolic.

Page 10405

 1        Q.   General, I will now be going through your career by presenting

 2     the information I have, and I expect you to confirm that they are true or

 3     not, in order to go through this as quickly as possible.

 4             Right at the start, let me draw your attention to the following,

 5     General.  Please make a brief pause before answering my question.  I've

 6     told you as much during proofing, but we need to be mindful of the speed

 7     for the sake of the interpreters.

 8        A.   That's quite clear.

 9        Q.   You were born in 1948 near Vranje; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You are now lieutenant-general in retirement?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You graduated from the Military Academy in 1970 in the Department

14     of Ground Forces, specifically artillery rocket units; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.  I want to only point out that these were anti-aircraft

16     defence artillery rocket units.

17        Q.   You graduated the Command and Staff School in -- from the Command

18     Staff School in 1983; is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you graduated from the Operations Command Staff School in

21     1990.  That's the highest educational institution, is it not?

22        A.   The highest level school in the army in Yugoslavia was the

23     Operations School, as you indicated, which is, in fact, the School of

24     People's Defence.

25        Q.   You graduated from the Faculty of Law in 1987; is that right?

Page 10406

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Let me go through the various positions you held in your career.

 3             Up until 1984, you were serving in several garrisons; is that

 4     right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In 1984, you joined the Federal Secretariat for National Defence

 7     where you were desk officer, specialist for housing policy in the 3rd

 8     Division of the then-personnel administration of the SSNO; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.  I did not merely join; I was transferred to that position.

10        Q.   Thank you.  My apologies for lack of precision.

11             You were appointed to the position of the chief of that

12     particular department, or division, in 1991, whereupon you were appointed

13     chief of a department which, in 1992, as part of reorganisation, became

14     administration for system-related and status-related affairs with the

15     Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes, it was a sector for system and status-related affairs

17     and legal affairs as well.

18        Q.   We will be going through the specific institutions later on, and

19     we'll have an opportunity to explain them.

20             In July 1994, you became chief of the administration for system

21     and status-related affairs with the Ministry of Defence; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You held that position up until the end of December 1995 when you

24     were transferred to the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, the

25     position of the chief of the independent administration for housing

Page 10407

 1     affairs, unless I'm mistaken, which was an autonomous administration with

 2     the VJ General Staff at the time; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Then you became the chief of the personnel administration of the

 5     sector for cadres, mobilisation and system matters of the Army -- of the

 6     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.  You took up this post in

 7     March 2000 -- no, I made a mistake.  This was in 1998.

 8        A.   I became chief of the personnel administration on the 31st of

 9     December, 1998.  And I became the chief of the sector or deputy --

10     assistant chief of the General Staff for mobilisation, staffing and

11     system matters on the 8th of March, 2000.

12        Q.   And you remained at that post until July 2000, when you submitted

13     your request for retirement; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   We're going to cover that when we go through the specific topics.

16     But you had the rank of colonel in December 1991; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   You became major-general in December 1996, on the 31st of

19     December, 1996?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And, finally, you became lieutenant-general in December 1999; is

22     that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I'm going to begin from the moment you moved to the

25     SSNO.  This was in 1984.  And then that became the Ministry of Defence

Page 10408

 1     once the Army of Yugoslavia was formed.

 2             Can you tell us briefly what your sector's duties were in the

 3     Federal Secretariat for National Defence, the SSNO, in that period before

 4     it became the JNA.

 5        A.   My first post in the SSNO was to be the chief of the department

 6     for housing policy in the Yugoslav People's Army.  As you said yourself,

 7     after that, I became the chief of the third department, which was called

 8     the department for the standard and status of military and civilian

 9     personnel serving in the Yugoslav People's Army.  The main duties of the

10     sector for housing policy was to analyse, assess the status, record and

11     register requests, monitor the number of unresolved housing cases, and to

12     propose legal solutions, in order to be able to provide housing for all

13     members of the JNA.  Later this was called the rules on the resolution of

14     housing problems of professional members of the military.

15             After being appointed to the head of the third section, which was

16     part of the then-personnel administration of the Federal Secretariat for

17     National Defence as an independent administration, our tasks were

18     systemic solutions or, to put it differently, normative regulation of the

19     system from the area of the status, situation in the service, and the

20     standards of professional members of the military.

21             However, after the transformation occurred and it became the Army

22     of Yugoslavia, after the section became an administration, pursuant to

23     the rules on the authority and the jurisdiction of organisational units

24     of the SSNO, its duties were broadened and had to do with a number of

25     tasks stemming from the Federal Secretariat for National Defence and the

Page 10409

 1     federal government, and this was regulating the situation in the service,

 2     the status in the service, the housing policy in a somewhat different

 3     form.  Also, it dealt with education and, as part of that, scientific

 4     activities, as well as salaries and other elements of the service,

 5     without having to go into each one.

 6        Q.   General, just one correction.  This last thing that you

 7     mentioned, and I'm making the correction on line 63 -- on page 63, lines

 8     1 and 2 when you said:  When this transformed into the administration,

 9     and this was after the federal Ministry of Defence of the Federal

10     Republic of Yugoslavia was formed, just one moment, please, from that

11     point on when the Army of Yugoslavia was formed, when the new

12     constitution was adopted, did the Federal Secretariat for National

13     Defence continue to exist?

14             Just answer briefly, please.

15        A.   After the decision was adopted to transform the Army of

16     Yugoslavia, there was a complete separation of the Ministry of Defence

17     and the Army of Yugoslavia.  At that point in time, two organisational

18     units were created with special authority, jurisdiction, and duties.

19        Q.   Very well.  We will discuss that separately.

20             In any case, is it true that the Federal Secretariat for National

21     Defence did not exist anymore, the forming -- with the forming of a new

22     state and the adoption of a new constitution in 1992 and with the forming

23     of the Ministry of Defence?

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In the previous period, while the Federal Secretariat

Page 10410

 1     for National Defence still existed, where was the General Staff located?

 2     Can you please just be as brief as possible.

 3        A.   In the earlier period, as you indicated yourself, the General

 4     Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia practically represented a sector of the

 5     Federal Secretariat for National Defence, and the federal Ministry for

 6     National Defence was practically superior to the General Staff of the

 7     Army of Yugoslavia.

 8        Q.   As compared to the General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army.

 9        A.   Yes, that is correct.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document 65 ter of

11     the Defence, 01115D; three 1s, 5D.

12        Q.   General, I prepared for you a binder in the order of the

13     documents that I considered to be correct.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have this binder

15     shown to the Prosecution.

16             And can we go to page 2 of this document right away.  Your

17     Honours, this is a diagram.

18        Q.   General, please look at page 2, that's right.  Since we will be

19     looking at another document, talking about the jurisdiction of specific

20     organisational units, I would just like for us here in the courtroom,

21     particularly for the Trial Chamber, to see how -- or to get an impression

22     of how the Ministry of Defence functioned by looking at this diagram.

23             General, we first see in the middle the Ministry of Defence -

24     this is the federal Ministry of Defence.  I assume that this is it not

25     dispute.  What is the relationship here of the Ministry of Defence with

Page 10411

 1     the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army?

 2        A.   Based on this diagram, as you indicated - this is page 2 of the

 3     document - it can be concluded without any doubt that the minister of

 4     defence was no longer superior to the General Staff of the Army of

 5     Yugoslavia.  These dotted lines that you see indicate that there is

 6     coordination between them, but not in terms of the chain of command.

 7     These are separate bodies.

 8        Q.   We also see that the minister of defence has subordinated to him

 9     several organisational units.  They are immediately subordinated to the

10     Ministry of Defence as sectors.  Some are in the form of administrations,

11     independent administrations.  I'm interested, in a couple of words only,

12     where the organisational unit where you worked was located.

13        A.   My organisational unit was the sector for the systemic status and

14     legal affairs, and it's shown here that it was immediately subordinated

15     to the minister of defence.  This sector comprised of three

16     administrations:  The sector administration; the system and status issues

17     administration where I was the head; and the legal administration, which

18     was headed by Starcevic.  Starcevic Miodrag.  That's right; I had

19     forgotten the name.

20        Q.   There is an administration for finance and budget.  This was also

21     an independent administration that was directly subordinated to the

22     minister of defence with all of its departments and sections?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Very well.  I apologise to the Prosecution if this was leading

25     the witness, but I would like to cover this diagram as soon as possible

Page 10412

 1     so that we don't get into complicated questions.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right.  I would like to tender

 3     this document, Your Honour, please.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be

 7     assigned Exhibit Number D239.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   General, this diagram that we have just looked at, is that how

11     the Ministry of Defence functioned for as long as you were there, since

12     the time the ministry was formed and subsequently?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Well, we could be even more specific, although I believe that

15     this is clear to the Court.

16             When was the federal Ministry of Defence formed, and since when

17     did it function in this particular way that is demonstrated on the

18     diagram?

19        A.   The Ministry of Defence was formed in June 1992, in the form that

20     it is shown on this diagram.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at another

22     document.  Can we put it up on the screen, and we would like to point out

23     to the Trial Chamber some important organisational units.  With the help

24     of this document, this is document 65 ter 01113D.  This is from the 65

25     ter list of documents.  These are the rules on the jurisdiction of the

Page 10413

 1     organisational units of the Ministry of Defence.

 2        Q.   Have you found it?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a suggestion by my client

 4     here.  The secretariat -- actually the Registry has said that the

 5     previous number was an MFI number.  This is what it says in the

 6     transcript on page 66, line 11.  I hope that we are looking at the

 7     correct document and that it is not an MFI document.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On page 11, I don't see the word MFI -- oh, marked

 9     for identification.  Yeah, it ought to come off.  It is not marked for

10     identification, it is admitted.  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that is what I saw as well.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, what do we see now in front of us?

15        A.   All right.  With the order or the rules on the responsibilities

16     of the organisational units in the federal defence ministry, the

17     responsibilities are set of certain sectors and independent

18     administrations as organisational units of the Ministry of Defence.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at Article 4, please.

20        Q.   This is the rules on the responsibilities of the organisational

21     units.  I would like to have your comment on Article 4 of these rules.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S this is page 5 and in

23     the English, also page 5.

24        Q.   Before that, General, perhaps we could just give us a brief

25     comment on the preamble and the grounds for adopting these rules.

Page 10414

 1        A.   These rules were adopted pursuant to Article 109, para 3, of the

 2     Law on All People's Defence, and pursuant to the order of -- on the

 3     delegation of certain powers held or vested with the Federal Secretariat

 4     for National Defence onto the Yugoslav People's Army.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you about these rules which were adopted

 6     at the time when a new constitution was already in place.  However, the

 7     rules and regulations from the previous system were still being applied.

 8             Why was this the case?

 9        A.   At the time the rules were adopted governing the responsibilities

10     of the organisational units of the Ministry of Defence.  The Law on the

11     Army of Yugoslavia had not yet been adopted.  It was still in

12     parliamentary procedure, and the process was ongoing.  The process -- the

13     legislative process takes a certain period of time.  In order for a

14     vacuum to be avoided, the Presidency of the FRY took a decision on the

15     19th of May, 1992 to rename the Yugoslav People's Army into the -- to

16     rename the Yugoslav People's Army the Army of Yugoslavia.

17             Do you need any additional explanation?

18        Q.   Yes, please.

19        A.   Paragraph 2 of the order, as far as I remember, reads explicitly:

20             "Until such time as the Law on the Army of Yugoslavia is adopted,

21     because this was laid down in the 27th of April, 1992 constitution, the

22     legislation that was in force up until that date would be applicable."

23        Q.   We will be looking at another piece of legislation later on.

24             Do you know, approximately, when the Law on Defence of the

25     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was adopted?

Page 10415

 1        A.   If you will allow me, I should like to put these papers together.

 2     I'm not that skillful with the papers.  I seem to have mixed them up.

 3             Since the FRY constitution of the 27th of April, 1992, which

 4     came into force forthwith, as soon as it was carried, defined in precise

 5     terms --

 6        Q.   Can you please move on to my question.  Do you know when the Law

 7     on Defence was adopted?

 8        A.   On the same date when the Law on the Army was adopted.  And this

 9     was on the 6th of November, 1993.

10        Q.   We will get back to what you wanted to discuss later.

11             I should like to have your comments on Article 4 of the order.

12             What is the basis on which organisational units of the Ministry

13     of Defence would act?

14        A.   I apologise.  The -- Article 4 does not relate to the order, but,

15     rather, to the rules of -- governing these responsibilities.

16             Article 4 defines in clear terms that organisational units shall

17     engage in activities within their remit based on federal laws and other

18     laws governing the work of the Ministry of Defence, based on acts issued

19     by the President of the Republic of the FRY, based on documents issued by

20     the Supreme Defence Council and the enactments of the minister of

21     defence, who shall direct his staff to act in accordance with the

22     legislation in force.

23        Q.   Who is the Ministry of Defence subordinated to, in a word,

24     please?

25        A.   The Ministry of Defence as a federal organ is subordinated to the

Page 10416

 1     federal government.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let us move on to Article 12 which is page 6 in the

 3     B/C/S and page 7 in the English.  We will be discussing specific

 4     organisational unit.  First off, the sector for system and status-related

 5     issues and legal affairs, which was the sector your administration was

 6     part of.

 7             Article 12 provides for the competences of the various sectors.

 8     And can you tell us what were the competences of the sector you were part

 9     of?

10        A.   The sector for system and status-related issues and legal

11     affairs - I apologise, I was waiting for the interpretation - performs

12     business of administrative and specialist nature which have to do --

13     which has to do with the analysis of system-related solutions, which were

14     provided for by laws or bylaws and relate to finding systemic solutions

15     for the status of professional servicemen, the state of affairs in the

16     army, social security with the emphasis on health insurance, as well as

17     pension and disability insurance.  Systemic solutions are -- were

18     supposed to be found for housing of the servicemen of the Army of

19     Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   Let's move on to your administration which is covered by Article

21     13.

22             I'm interested in one of the duties listed in item 2 where it is

23     stated that the administration for system and status-related issues, that

24     the administration will do what?  Can you tell us?

25        A.   The rules on responsibilities --

Page 10417

 1        Q.   Pause there a moment.  It's Article 13.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page?  That's

 3     what I want the witness to explain.  Item 2.  The same goes for the

 4     English version.  Can we have the next page for Their Honours to follow.

 5     Thank you.

 6        Q.   General, can we have your comments on what it was that you did in

 7     your administration in connection with this particular item of the

 8     rules -- of the rules.

 9        A.   The administration that I headed in 1994 was the basic tactical

10     body responsible for regulations governing salaries, pecuniary

11     allowances, and other sorts of remuneration in the army in accordance

12     with the Law on the Army of Yugoslavia.

13        Q.   Once you've done the preparatory work for one such bylaw, who

14     would be the person signing it?

15        A.   The powers in relation to the adoption of bylaws were defined by

16     the law.  It is, in fact, the Law on the Army of Yugoslavia.

17             Article 87 of the law regulates in no uncertain terms that the

18     federal government shall, by way of its regulations specify the amount of

19     salaries to be paid out, the salary scales, the titles of various

20     allowances, and all other manner of remuneration paid in the army.

21             In addition to laws governing salaries, where Articles 81 -- or,

22     rather, 71 to 79 of the law, basic principles governing salaries were

23     laid out.  So in addition the law, the federal government issues a decree

24     on the salaries of professional servicemen where it regulates in detail

25     the way in which other entitlements are defined and the way in which they

Page 10418

 1     are paid, as well as all the other matters that need to be regulated in

 2     order for salaries to be paid out.

 3             Now, the minister of defence, as a part of the federal body, is

 4     also entitled under the army -- under the Law of the Army of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina to issue a more detailed rules governing allowances,

 6     reimbursements of expenses, and other income in the army, and this

 7     particular body of law or bylaw, is called rules.

 8        Q.   Thank you, General.  Can we have your brief comment on Article

 9     14, which deals with legal administration?  Item 4 says that:

10             "The legal affairs administration shall provide opinions and

11     legal matters in the application of laws and other regulations?"

12             What does it mean?  Who does the administration provide these

13     opinions to; and are these opinions binding in any way?

14        A.   As I said at the beginning, the legal affairs administration is

15     part of the sector for system and status-related issues.  As the body

16     best placed to deal with these matters, because it is a legal service,

17     gives its opinion on all the enactments issued by the Ministry of Defence

18     or, rather, organisational units of the Ministry of Defence as to their

19     compatibility with the constitution and all the relevant legislation in

20     the country.

21             Let me point out one thing.  The legal affairs administration is

22     not competent in terms of amending the legal texts that come from the

23     Ministry of Defence or the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, the

24     legal text governing material entitlements.  And if you want me to, if

25     Their Honours want me to do, I can explain what these material

Page 10419

 1     entitlements are.

 2        Q.   Just pause there for a moment.

 3             Tell us what these material entitlements are.

 4        A.   Right.  These material solutions are proposals given by the

 5     organisational units of the VJ General Staff and the Ministry of Defence,

 6     bodies which are the tactically responsible bodies for the workings of

 7     the army and the workings of the ministry.  Let me give you an example.

 8     If the commander of the air force, an anti-aircraft defence wants an

 9     allowance to be introduced for pilots, let's, say, to be paid out as part

10     of their salary, and if he proposes a solution whereby the amount to be

11     paid out - this is merely an example I'm giving you - should be at the

12     level of a junior lieutenant's salary, by rank and by position, in that

13     case, this sort of proposal would be forwarded to the administration for

14     system and status-related issues.  The regulations are formulated and

15     specific solutions proposed; whereas, the chief of the legal affairs

16     administration shall, on the basis of the powers vested with him, this

17     piece of regulation is in keeping with the law or is contrary to the law.

18     In short, that is his role.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Next we have the sector for economic, military

20     economic activity.  I will not be dealing with this issue.  But do you

21     happen to know who headed the sector for military economic affairs?

22        A.   Well, it's been 19 years since then but I do know who it was.

23     This was Kadijevic, but not Veljko Kadijevic, but a man with the same

24     last name, a lieutenant-general.

25        Q.   Radojca?

Page 10420

 1        A.   Yes, Radojca.

 2        Q.   I would like to comment on a different organisational unit, which

 3     I think has something to do with your unit, this is the administration

 4     for finances and budget.  This is Article 23.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on the e-court copy,

 6     this is page -- page 14 in the English.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've found it.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Again, General, I don't want to talk about a document which is

10     quite clear by itself.  But I would like you to tell us, in your own

11     words, something about this Article 4, item 4, as far as the tasks of the

12     administration for finance and budget is concerned.

13        A.   I cannot read it.

14        Q.   I will read it.  I will read it slowly.  Just listen.

15             So the finance and budget administration in item 4 it states:

16             "It shall monitor the implementation of the military budget and

17     in this regard, propose all necessary measures to ensure financial

18     discipline and the regular flow of funds from the federal budget."

19             Just in a couple of words, General.  What is the military budget,

20     and what is the federal budget, and what is the role of this

21     administration?

22        A.   The finance and budget administration is an independent

23     administration, an independent organisational unit, rather, of the

24     Ministry of Defence, and it bears the greatest responsibility as far as

25     the preparation and the drafting of the budget is concerned.  Budget for

Page 10421

 1     the Army of Yugoslavia and for the Ministry of Defence.  Would you permit

 2     me to clarify further?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   In the Law on Financing of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

 5     the term "a single budget" is used.  There aren't two budgets.  It is

 6     still -- there isn't a separate military budget, but the person who will

 7     draft the military budget and deal with the taking of the necessary

 8     measures and implementing -- or -- financial discipline, and financial

 9     discipline means the expenditure of only the amount of funds granted by

10     the Assembly or the Law on the Federal Budget.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   In item 10 of the same article - perhaps we can turn to the next

14     page, please; this is item 10 - this finance and budget administration is

15     said to be in charge of the defence ministry's accounting centre and

16     exercises professional control over its work.

17             General, can you please explain what the accounting centre of the

18     defence ministry was, how did it function in the JNA and after the

19     forming of the Army of Yugoslavia?

20        A.   In order to be able to answer this question, I'm sorry, I just

21     need to remind you of item 7 because 10 is related to item 7.  It's not

22     necessary to read it.

23        Q.   Yes, are you correct.

24        A.   You don't read the whole item, but it says:  Financing the

25     beneficiaries of the budget, the calculation or processing, and the

Page 10422

 1     paying out of salaries.

 2             That means that the finance and -- and budget administration is

 3     only responsible for the calculation and payment of salaries to all

 4     members of the army, and that is why this accounting centre was formed in

 5     the federal Ministry of Defence, which is directly connected to the

 6     finance and budget administration, without going into too much detail,

 7     because that would require a lot of time.  This is the centre which

 8     collects all the data on all the professional members of the army,

 9     calculates the salaries according to the specific regulations, and also

10     issues those salaries.

11        Q.   During the SFRY and the old JNA, if I can put it that way, was

12     there an accounting centre of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia

13     and after the Army of Yugoslavia was formed, were there any other

14     functions that it had in relation to issuing the salaries of members of

15     the Army of Yugoslavia?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have a clarification here for the

18     Trial Chamber, and the interpreters perhaps can help.

19             We have two terms in the Serbian which in the English language

20     are translated as the same.  I would like to stress that there is a term

21     called racunski centar of the General Staff, and the accounting

22     racunovodstveni centar of the Army of Yugoslavia General Staff.

23             I actually said the Ministry of Defence at the end.

24        Q.   So, General, there is a distinction here.  Perhaps it would be

25     best if you explained what the body was before the Army of Yugoslavia was

Page 10423

 1     formed and who issued salaries before that, and what happened once the

 2     Army of Yugoslavia and the Ministry of Defence were formed.

 3        A.   When the Yugoslav People's Army still existed and while the Law

 4     on Service in the Armed Forces was still in force and when the General

 5     Staff of the Army of the Armed Forces was subordinated to the federal

 6     minister of defence, there was an accounting centre in that General Staff

 7     racunovodstveni centar.  However, with the forming of the Ministry of

 8     Defence, as a separate federal organ of the federal government the

 9     racunovodstveni centar was formed in the budget and finance

10     administration, and then it took over all the responsibilities of the

11     previous racunovodstveni centar.

12             If Your Honours would allow me to explain the terms used, the

13     difference between racunovodstveni centar and a racunski centar.

14        Q.   Just one moment we have a problem with what it says on page 77,

15     line 8.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the English translation

18     is not good.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... I guess we

20     having a problem that Madam interpreter is giving this accounting centre

21     names still in the B/C/S, and it is very difficult without spelling the

22     word to -- to the stenographer to stay what is being said.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note that we did not use the

24     word JNA barracks.  The word barracks was not said.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... I understand

Page 10424

 1     that.  You've used the word racunovska [phoen] or something like that and

 2     something similar to that.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  We also note that the witness used the same

 4     word while giving the distinction.  In both times he used racunovodstveni

 5     centar.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  We are waiting for the English

 7     translation of that word.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  It is the accounting centre.  Racunovodstveni

 9     centar means accounting centre.  Racunski centar can mean IT centre as in

10     computer centre, and it can also mean accounting centre, so the second

11     word racunski can mean either one of those things.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, madam interpreter.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you to the interpreters.  I did

14     hear that, and I agree with the explanation.  Actually the gist is

15     actually how salaries were issued during the JNA and how salaries were

16     issued when the Army of Yugoslavia was formed.

17        Q.   So, General, I would kindly ask you to explain that in the

18     simplest language based on what you know.  So could you please give us a

19     comparison of how the salaries were issued in first one and then the

20     other of these time-periods?

21        A.   I explained what the racunovodstveni centars do, one and the

22     other.  During the validity of the Law on the Armed Forces their role was

23     the same.  I just referred to the term of the racunski centar.  This is

24     practically a branch of the accounting, racunovodstveni centar, most

25     simply put.

Page 10425

 1        Q.   After the Army of Yugoslavia was formed, was there an accounting

 2     centre in the General Staff and what was its function if it did have any

 3     function in terms of the salaries or responsibilities in that sense

 4     towards the Army of Yugoslavia?

 5        A.   The General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia did not have an

 6     accounting centre that would process and pay out salaries.  This

 7     responsibility was carried out by the accounting centre of the Ministry

 8     of Defence.

 9        Q.   Was there -- did the General Staff have an accounting centre, and

10     if it did, what were its responsibilities and duties?

11        A.   I am going to try to explain this by giving examples.

12             Earlier I talked about the adoption of the budget and who was

13     responsible for drafting the budget for the Army of Yugoslavia.  When the

14     defence minister issues a decision on the amount of financial means that

15     would be allocated from the budget to the Army of Yugoslavia, that is

16     what we referred to as pie.  All of those funds are managed by the 5th

17     Administration of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia which does

18     not have the accounting centre, but it has the computer centre or

19     calculating centre.  So for all purposes, that is like a treasury or a

20     safe where data is collected as to how much money goes where.

21        Q.   And which funds are used for the payment of salaries, or how are

22     salaries issued?  Through which channels?

23        A.   The accounting centre of the defence ministry issues salaries

24     through chequing accounts or Giro accounts, if that's what you were

25     asking me.

Page 10426

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... question.

 2             When this computer centre --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go ahead, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  When this computer centre has

 5     calculated what amount must go to the salaries of the Army of the -- of

 6     Yugoslavia, what does it do with those calculations?

 7             In other words, does it send them to the accounting centre of the

 8     Ministry of Defence who then pays, or what happens?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I wasn't clear

10     enough.

11             The calculation centre of the 5th Administration, that is part of

12     the General Staff, does not distribute any money.  This is done by the

13     accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that -- [Microphone not activated]

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which keeps and maintains financial

16     data cards.  That's how we refer to them.  And these cards are kept only

17     in this centre.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues]... okay.  Let me

19     ask my question slightly differently.

20             What is the purpose of the calculations that are made in the

21     computer centre of the 5th Administration?  What is done with those

22     documents -- with those calculations, or what's happened to them?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a little bit earlier that

24     this calculation centre keeps records about the funds made available to

25     it for its use.  Detailed questions, the method of work, Your Honour,

Page 10427

 1     that they used, the criteria, this is something that is not really in my

 2     remit, so I would not be able to give you a valid explanation.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Let's look at the inspections by the Ministry of Defence.  This

 6     is Article 24.  I'm interested in the analysis of Article 26.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please turn to the next page.

 8        Q.   And can you please tell us, General, what the material, financial

 9     and market inspections are, and what that involves?

10             Have you found it?

11        A.   Yes.  Just let me look through these papers.

12        Q.   It's Article 26.  What is the material, financial, and market

13     inspection?

14        A.   Material, financial, and market inspection is a professional

15     organ that carries out inspections primarily those involving the storage,

16     use, and disposition of the assets of the Yugoslav Army and control the

17     financial operations including the earlier-referred-to methods, including

18     the consequences referred to, checking the contracts involving

19     procurement of food, other materiel, with the exception of salaries,

20     because that is not under the jurisdiction of the General Staff.  So that

21     organ would behave pursuant to all the regulations.

22        Q.   You said not including the salaries, because that is what they

23     are authorised for.

24             Does the financial and market inspection also control the manner

25     of the distribution of the salaries; and, if it does, where does it carry

Page 10428

 1     out these inspections?

 2        A.   I said that it controls financial operations in the Army of

 3     Yugoslavia.  This is why I said "without including the salaries."

 4             However, this same material, financial, and market inspection is

 5     also obliged to inspect the final calculation of the salaries, but in the

 6     administration for budget and finances at the accounting centre of the

 7     Ministry of Defence.

 8             I apologise, because is this the inspection of the defence

 9     minister?  That is immediately subordinated to the minister of defence.

10        Q.   We will discuss this matter a little bit more.  We have to stop.

11     I do have a few more questions relating to this inspection, but this is

12     something that we can discuss tomorrow -- actually, the day after

13     tomorrow.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am not going to tender this

15     document now because I would like to comment a little more on it with the

16     witness.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

18             Mr. Nikolic, we are not done with you.  You will have to come --

19     unfortunately, we are not able to sit tomorrow because there is no court

20     available, but we will sitting on Thursday in the morning at 9.00 in

21     Courtroom I, which is this courtroom.  If you can be back here on

22     Thursday at 9.00 in the morning.

23             In the meantime, while you are out of the witness-stand, you are

24     not allowed, now that you have started testifying, to discuss this case

25     with anybody; in particular, not with the lawyers that represent Mr.

Page 10429

 1     Perisic.  Is that okay?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Everything

 3     is clear.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             Court adjourned to Thursday morning at 9.00, Courtroom I.

 6                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Thursday, March 4th, 2010 at

 8                           9.00 a.m.