1 Wednesday, 10 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
12 the day, starting with the Prosecution, please.
13 MR. THOMAS: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, General.
14 Good morning to everybody in and around the courtroom. Barney Thomas,
15 Bronagh McKenna --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 MR. THOMAS: -- Dan Saxon, and Carmela Javier for the
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas. And for the
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
22 morning to all the participants in this case. Mr. Perisic will be
23 presented today by Novak Lukic and Boris Zorko.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
25 Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.
1 WITNESS: STAMENKO NIKOLIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning. Just to remind you once again that
5 you're bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your
6 testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic.
10 Mr. Lukic.
11 I see I'm being called Judge David in the transcript.
12 MR. LUKIC: May I proceed?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Lukic. Once I said yes,
14 Mr. Lukic, then it's up to you.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, once again good morning. Now I
18 will try to stick to my word I gave you yesterday so we will try to be as
19 quick as possible so that you can return to your family today.
20 A. Thank you very much.
21 Q. Mr. Lukic, I would like to ask some questions that follow from
22 the questions and your answers provided to Mr. Thomas. I will try to
23 clarify certain things. On Monday he asked several questions regarding
24 the military budget, and the portions of the military budget going for
25 the MOD or the army, respectively. Do you remember that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. He also put it to you that from that pie, so to say, called the
3 military budget, some 95 per cent went for the Army of Yugoslavia and
4 5 per cent for the MOD. And you said that the ratio was probably
5 85 per cent for the army and 15 per cent for the MOD. Do you remember
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. He also put it to you that once the military budget or the
9 portion for the Yugoslav Army was approved on a daily basis, it was
10 allocated through the accounting centre. Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes. I apologise. It's not the accounting centre of the army.
12 It is the accounting centre of the MOD.
13 Q. Well, this is what I wanted to clarify first of all. So the part
14 of the military budget allocated for the army, how was that disbursed?
15 How was that distributed, so to say, in plain language?
16 A. Now, this is a technical issue, the distribution of the funding
17 where it is kept and so on, but we are here talking about the accounting
18 per se. If you allow me to remind you of what we talked about earlier,
19 the accounting and budgeting administration of the Federal Ministry of
20 Defence, which is an independent administration directly responsible to
21 the Federal Minister of Defence, has as one of its main tasks to prepare
22 the rules on financial business of all the units in the army and in the
23 MOD, but now we are talking about the methodology and ways in which
24 monies were distributed. So in order not to go into these technical
25 issues, whether it was a pie, as you say, or whether it was done in
1 another way, it all depended on whoever was competent for a particular
2 task, for the execution of a particular task. And please allow me just
3 to remind you of yet another thing that we need to clarify.
4 The role of these two administrations, so I'm talking about the
5 administration for systemic and status-related issues. According to the
6 Article 85 of the relevant regulation, this particular administration is
7 mentioned as the administration in charge of monitoring the payments of
9 Q. We will come to that in a second. Hold on. We will look at
10 certain documents, and I will ask you to comment, but let us take it
12 When asked by Mr. Thomas, you also said that when we are talking
13 about the portion of the military budget going for the army,
14 approximately 65 per cent went for salaries and pensions. So my question
15 is as follows: Did the Army of Yugoslavia have anything to do with the
16 distribution of pensions?
17 A. Mr. Lukic, one additional explanation. The only institution
18 responsible for pensions was the fund, so-called SOVO. This was the
19 acronym, and we used it. This was the fund that was in charge of
20 calculating and distributing pensions. The General Staff of the
21 Yugoslav Army had nothing to do with the pensions.
22 Q. Could you please tell us approximately of these 65 per cent of
23 the military budget that went for pensions and salaries, what was the
24 portion that went for pensions approximately?
25 A. Given the number of pensioners and the number of active members
1 of the military service, it was approximately 40 per cent for pensions
2 and the remaining amount for active servicemen, but this is very
4 Q. This is what I asked you. Also, Mr. Thomas put it to you on the
5 same day that the VJ controlled war reserves. My question is as follows:
6 To which particular body was the directorate for war reserves
7 subordinated to?
8 A. It was directly subordinated to the federal government.
9 Q. What was its main task?
10 A. Its main task is clear from the very name of this directorate.
11 So it had to provide funding, which was also visible in the budget, and
12 if requested by the General Staff and the ministry, it had to provide
13 different reserves.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go into private
15 session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the Chamber please move into private
18 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the Exhibit P756
22 on the screen. These are minutes from the 25th session of the
23 Supreme Defence Council.
24 Q. Mr. Nikolic, I do not have a paper version, but I believe it will
25 be legible enough, and if necessary, I can read it out for you.
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. So as I said, this is page 1 of these minutes. The session was
3 held on 30th of August, 1994, and if we can now see page 3 in B/C/H. I
4 believe it's also page 3 in English. I need conclusion number 7. So
5 this is at the very end of this document in both language versions, at
6 the last page.
7 A. I can only see item 1.
8 Q. Hold on just a second. We will wait for the English version as
9 well. So as I said, item number 7.
10 So, General Nikolic, these are the conclusions adopted by the
11 Supreme Defence Council following this session.
12 In item 7, we can read as follows:
13 "In order to maintain the requisite level of combat readiness of
14 the Army of Yugoslavia, it is essential within the limitations of the
15 funds approved by the federal budget, to secure a more regular and steady
16 flow on funds for the army and an additional 35.5 million dinars. The
17 salaries of members of the Yugoslav Army shall be regularly harmonised
18 with those in other sectors of the society."
19 And the following paragraph reads as follows:
20 "The federal ministry of defence shall regularly inform the
21 Supreme Defence Council at its sessions about the implementation of this
23 It follows from this document -- can you tell us, Mr. Simic
24 [sic], what follows from this document? Who was in charge of salaries
25 for members of the army?
1 A. Well, the last sentence clearly says that the Federal Ministry of
2 Defence shall be responsible for providing money for the salaries.
3 Q. Thank you. While we are in a private session, could we please
4 have a look at the document P749. This is also a document that is under
5 seal. These are minutes from the 36th session of the Supreme Defence
7 This is it. On the screen we can see the minutes from the
8 36th session of the Supreme Defence Council held on the 12th of May,
10 Could we please take a look at page 5 in B/C/H. I would like to
11 see conclusion number 5. I believe it is also page 5 in English. So
12 item number 5. That's the one. Can we just see it in English as well.
13 It is probably on the previous page in English. I apologise.
14 Once again, this is a conclusion of the Supreme Defence Council,
15 and it reads as follows:
16 "Secure a regular inflow of funds. The federal government shall
17 take care of this matter not later than in the course of next week. As a
18 part of this, secure funds for the payment of salaries to members of the
19 Army of Yugoslavia."
20 How do you read this conclusion of the Supreme Defence Council,
21 Mr. Nikolic?
22 A. Item 5 of these conclusions of the Supreme Defence Council
23 clearly says that it is a duty of the federal government, as the only
24 authorised body to do this, to secure the necessary funds for the payment
25 of salaries to members of the Army of Yugoslavia not later than in the
1 course of the following week, and this conclusion is very clear. It is
2 only the federal government that can do it pursuant to its authorities
3 stipulated by legislation.
4 Q. Thank you. While we are still in a private session, we will move
5 to a different topic, but this is yet another document that is under
7 Mr. Thomas asked you, and you said both in direct examination and
8 during the cross-examination, when we are talking about the period in
9 which the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had sanctions against the
10 Republic of Serbia, that members of the families who stayed in the
11 territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had very dire problems.
12 Do you remember this?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So you confirmed to Mr. Thomas that these families had really
15 hard times. So do you just remember that this is what you said?
16 A. Yes. I was just waiting for the interpretation to be completed.
17 Q. So could we please look at the document that we saw previously,
18 P756. So again this -- these are the minutes from the 25th session of
19 the Supreme Defence Council, and the session was held on 30th of August,
20 1994. I need conclusion number 5 this time.
21 Page 3 in the B/C/S as well, if possible. The meeting was held
22 on the 30th of August, 1994. That is beyond dispute. That's after the
23 federal government adopted that decision on the introduction of
24 sanctions. Conclusion number 5:
25 "Military officers currently in Republika Srpska but disagreeing
1 with the policies of Republika Srpska's leadership and asking to go back,
2 shall be welcomed back to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."
3 Have you read that, sir? My question is --
4 A. Yes, I've read it.
5 Q. General Nikolic, do you know the members of the VRS who were
6 handled by the 30th Personnel Centre in fact accepted this invitation by
7 the FRY's leadership, or did they, in fact, remain in Republika Srpska?
8 A. Do you mean the Republic of Serbian Krajina or --
9 Q. This is in reference to members of the VRS when the -- the FRY
10 imposed its sanctions on Republika Srpska. That is when the Contact
11 Group plan had been refused in early August.
12 A. Yes, I understand.
13 Q. Do you know if any officers, and if so how many, of the VRS in
14 fact went back to the FRY at the invitation of the Supreme Defence
15 Council as the document states?
16 A. No. And I say something else. We actually conducted analysis
17 and not a single member of the VRS in fact went back to the FRY.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that we don't have any
19 LiveNote, at least not on my screen. I have no problem pressing ahead
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic. There -- I don't know how to call
23 these things, but on the screen on the left you do have LiveNote. You
24 can get LiveNote. And -- okay. This is a problem we all have.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The important thing is the actual
1 proceedings are recorded. As soon as that is the case, we might as well
3 Q. Mr. Nikolic, had those officers returned to the VJ, would they
4 have been receiving salaries throughout that period from the FRY and the
5 army? Had they responded to the invitation by the FRY.
6 A. This is what I think: If they'd gone back, they would have had
7 to receive some salary.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We can go back into open session,
9 Your Honours, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I'd like to bring up another subject, something that actually
16 follows from one of your earlier answers. P1864. That's what I think
17 the number is. It's a document by the 3rd Army following the talks with
18 Chief Perisic about certain officers.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1865. It appears that I made a
20 mistake. P1865.
21 [In English] P1865.
22 [Interpretation] There, now we have it.
23 Q. General, I'm not sure if you remember this document. Hold on a
24 minute, sir.
25 A. The print's too small. I can't see a thing.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in slightly.
2 Q. And then I'll try to jog your memory, General. It's a list of
3 officers following the talks with General Perisic, those handled by the
4 40th Personnel Centre in the SVK and also a list of those officers who
5 expressed their desire to retire.
6 A. Yes, yes, yes, I do.
7 Q. Just take it easy, please. One step at a time. Mr. Thomas put
8 it to you based on this document that the officers not wishing to be
9 handled by the 40th Personnel Centre and then go to the SVK chose as
10 their only other option to retire. Do you remember that, sir?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Under the Law on the VJ, does a person being sent to a unit have
13 the right to appeal that decision?
14 A. A person being sent or transferred, and this is something that
15 the Law on Promotions also clearly states, has no right to appeal a
16 decision like that. The person must comply. If that is what you had in
18 Q. The first -- the first question is: Does this person have the
19 right to appeal?
20 A. Yes, the person does have the right to appeal. This is the Law
21 on General Administrative Procedures.
22 Q. Any person at all, for example, gets a secondment or an order to
23 transfer. Does that person have the right to appeal that order?
24 A. Yes, they do.
25 Q. Does the appeal stay the actual execution?
1 A. No, it doesn't.
2 Q. Do you perhaps know from the period when you came to the
3 personnel administration and had under you the 30th Personnel Centre --
4 so, do you perhaps know that any person who was sent like that through
5 the 30th or 40 Personnel Centres ever lodged an appeal about an action
6 like this?
7 A. Just a small correction. When I came there, there was only a
8 30th Personnel Centre. The 40th was no longer around. Based on my
9 experience, based on my knowledge and any information that I may have had
10 at the time, there wasn't a single person who did that at the time.
11 Quite the contrary, in fact. All of the persons of their own free will
12 signed these statements to --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down. Slow down. The interpreter is having
14 difficulty. Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
16 It won't happen again.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Another question still covering the same subject, and I mean
20 officers now --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Can counsel reframe the
22 question. The interpreter did not understand the question. Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Rephrase your question.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.
25 Q. What about any active-duty servicemen? There is a decision that
1 is taken on the termination of his service and for that person to be
2 retired. Would a person not have the right to appeal that decision?
3 A. Yes, that person has the right to appeal this decision before the
4 Supreme Court, and this is actually included in the legal remedies. Any
5 order can be appealed like that.
6 Q. The Supreme Court, that is a civilian court, not a military
7 court; right?
8 A. No. The supreme military court dealing with matters to do with
9 administrative aspects in terms of regulating these appeals, ruling on
10 them and so on and so forth. As far as criminal matters were concerned,
11 well, one knows how that is handled.
12 Q. All right. Let me move on to another subject. Actually this is
13 my third subject, something that was brought up by Mr. Thomas. He was
14 using certain documents as he was examining you about this. It was about
15 the execution of actual disciplinary decisions adopted by courts in the
17 Let me first bring back Prosecution Exhibit P2420.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, your microphone is off. You will have
20 to start all over again.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Nikolic, we have before us a sentence by the military
23 disciplinary court, that attached to the air force and anti-aircraft
24 defence of the VRS. The date is the 20th of September, 1995.
25 A. Yes, I see that.
1 Q. The Prosecutor wanted to know about person number 2, the second
2 accused Nedeljko Vujic, holding the rank of major, military post 7272,
3 Banja Luka. Can you see that?
4 A. Yes, I can.
5 Q. If you look at the disposition that is included in this
6 judgement, it reads:
7 "Found guilty Nedeljko Vujic --"
8 A. I can't see that.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in on the part
10 that says, "Found guilty." And then the paragraph just under that
12 Q. It reads that the --
13 A. I've lost the image on the screen. I'm sorry.
14 Q. Let me read that portion for you. It says in relation to Vujic,
15 right down the middle:
16 "Accused number 2, Nedeljko Vujic, on the 29th of May, 1993, was
17 not authorised to leave his service."
18 A. I see that.
19 Q. That is the day Major Nedeljko Vujic left his unit. That's the
20 date; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please pull the document up a
23 little to see the heading. Yes, like that. Thank you. Can we please
24 pull the English up as well so the Chamber may see.
25 Q. The sentence takes effect on the 8th of October, 1995. That's
1 what it says, doesn't it? It's the clause on entry into force; right?
2 A. I can't see that.
3 Q. It's in the upper right corner where you can see the stamp.
4 A. Yes, indeed I do see that now. Yes, yes, yes, I see that.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just find out. There are two dates there.
6 There's the 8th of October, 1995. There's the 20th of September, 1995.
7 How do we determine that it takes effect on the 8th of October, 1995? I
8 don't know what those two dates mean, and could the witness explain them
9 to us, please.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Indeed, General. As a lawyer, can you explain what the date
12 means when the sentence is due to take effect and what is the difference
13 between these two dates?
14 A. Your Honours, if you look at the heading where it is stated who
15 adopted this decision, it says that it was passed on the
16 20th of September, 1995. And then on the right-hand side we can see the
17 two stamps on the same page. You can see that the sentence takes effect
18 on the 8th of October, 1995, and then there's a portion that I can't see.
19 The 8th of October, 1995, and then the Chamber president signed this.
20 Entry into force, what does that mean. That means that all the
21 deadlines have now passed for any legal remedies or appeals to be lodged
22 and the decision must be executed. That's what it means if you ask me.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that is about a month of --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Let us move on to another document. May I just ask you to
3 remember about this person, Nedeljko Vujic. The sentence says that he
4 committed this crime on the 20th of May, 1993, and --
5 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear the last part
6 of counsel's question.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter didn't hear the last part of
8 counsel's question.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I will have to slow down. It says that Nedeljko Vujic left the
11 unit, committed the crime on the 20th of May, 1993, and the sentence was
12 passed on the 20th of September, 1995.
13 Now I would like to see another document that you saw previously,
14 Mr. Nikolic, in relation to the same person, but I believe that we need
15 to move into a private session.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's P4241. I'm not sure whether
17 this document is under seal. No, it doesn't seem to be, so we can remain
18 in an open session. So P4241.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, we don't have that number.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no. P2421.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: 2421.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Now you saw the document that is issued by the
24 command of the air force and the anti-aircraft defence which was sent to
25 the personnel administration of the General Staff in relation to the
1 judgement that we saw previously. So what do we see here? I will read
2 it out for you, General.
3 First of all, we can see that this document signed by
4 General Velickovic is dated 29th of January, 1996. Do you see that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Item 1 here mentions Nedeljko Vujic, lieutenant-colonel. Do you
7 see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In the previous document he was a major, and here we can see that
10 three years later now he was lieutenant-colonel. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If we could scroll down to see another portion that Mr. Thomas
13 already showed you, and it relates to Mr. Vujic. It says the officer
14 mentioned under item 1 --
15 A. It is difficult to read, but I can hear what you are reading out.
16 Q. "The officers under numbers 1 and 4 have been in service in the
17 VJ for two or more years. They have achieved very good and excellent
18 results, and a possible confirmation of this measure would be a pure loss
19 for the air force and anti-air defence of the Army of Yugoslavia."
20 This is what Velickovic says in this document. And now please
21 let us look at yet another document that you saw previously, and this is
23 This is a document on the termination of his professional
24 military service issued by the command of the air force PVO of the Army
25 of Yugoslavia. The date here is the 13th of October, 2005, and we can
1 see that he will retire with the rank of colonel. Can you see this?
2 A. Yes, I can.
3 Q. Question number 1: Mr. Nedeljko Vujic, from the moment when he
4 left his unit in the Army of Republika Srpska in 1993 as a major until
5 the moment when he's retired, has he been promoted within the Army of
6 Yugoslavia? Could you see this in these documents?
7 A. Yes, from everything you read out, I can see that he was promoted
8 and he was still in the service.
9 Q. On the basis of this document, could you draw a conclusion as to
10 what he did once he left the Army of Republika Srpska?
11 A. On the basis of these documents, we can see that he went back to
12 his original unit. So he went back to the command of the air force and
14 Q. So on the basis of these documents, can you conclude whether the
15 Army of Yugoslavia respected the decision of the military court of
16 Republika Srpska or not?
17 A. Absolutely not, because these were two separate systems.
18 Q. Thank you. Now we will see the second example that Mr. Thomas
19 put to you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give each other a chance as you speak so
21 that the interpretation can take place. Don't overlap quickly. And try
22 to slow down. Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
24 I'm not sure whether P2417 is a document that is under seal or
25 not. If not, could we please look at document P2417.
1 Q. This is a judgement regarding the second person. His name was
2 Zoran Antic, and you discussed this example with Mr. Thomas as well.
3 We will enlarge this, and I will read out similar data. So the
4 judgement was issued on 23rd of September, 1995, by the military
5 disciplinary court of the command of the air force and PVO, and the
6 Prosecutor was interested in the person named under item 2,
7 Mr. Zoran Antic. Can you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Here we can see that his current whereabouts were unknown, that
10 he was in Srb, and that he was in the VRS since 15th of February, 1993.
11 Can you see this?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So here we can see the text of the judgement and it says that
14 these were active military servicemen who left the service on their own
15 will, and Antic, Zoran, left the service on 13th of March, 1993 [as
16 interpreted], and never returned. Can you see this?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So the disciplinary punishment was pronounced --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. --
20 MR. THOMAS: Objection, Your Honour. Just a correction in the
21 transcript, sir, and it may be a translation error. I'm not certain, but
22 at page 18, line 24, my learned friend referred to the date upon which
23 Zoran Antic left his unit as being the 13th of March, 1993, but I see
24 from the document that's on the screen, at least the English version,
25 that it's 1995.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Thanks very much. The transcript will be
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Thomas. You're
4 absolutely correct. So this was the 13th of March, 1995. Could we now
5 look at the following document: P2419. [In English] 2419.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Now this is an order of the chief of the
7 personnel administration of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army,
8 issued on the 5th of February, 1996, which concludes that the
9 professional military service of Zoran Antic has been terminated. At the
10 very end of the document we can see legal remedies, and it says:
11 "This order is final and an appeal may not be filed against it,
12 but an administrative action may be instituted at the Supreme Military
13 Court in Belgrade ..."
14 This is what it says?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So in the previous cases we -- case we had an example of a person
17 who returned to his unit in the VJ. On the basis of this document, can
18 you conclude whether this particular person went back to his unit in the
19 VJ or not?
20 A. I can see this explanation, and in this explanation it is
21 indicated that on the basis of the attached documents it can be concluded
22 that he did not return to his unit to explain his absence from his unit,
23 and therefore he does not deserve any payment. So he did not return to
24 his unit.
25 Q. Was it in the interest of the Army of Yugoslavia to pay any money
1 to persons who did not go back to their units in the VJ?
2 A. There was no grounds on the basis of which they could be paid,
3 but also there was a legal basis for this based in Article 107,
4 paragraph 1 on the Law on the Army. So they could not be paid.
5 Q. My question was very specific. Was it in the interest of the
6 Yugoslav Army to pay persons who did not belong to their units?
7 A. Absolutely not.
8 Q. Was it in the interest of Yugoslavia to keep such persons into
9 their -- into its records as if they were their members?
10 A. Such persons were erased from all the records.
11 Q. All right. Could we now please have a look at the document
12 P2413. This is a different topic that was raised by Mr. Thomas, and it
13 had to do with initiating disciplinary proceedings against persons who
14 came to the Serbian Army of Krajina through the 40th Personnel Centre.
15 We will now see this document.
16 This is an order signed by General Perisic on 9th of November,
17 1995, and in your answer to Mr. Thomas you talked about the contents of
18 the document.
19 My first question is: Do you know whether in November of 1995
20 the Republic of Serbian Krajina existed at all?
21 A. Absolutely not.
22 Q. In November of 1995, was there a Main Staff of the Serbian Army
23 of Krajina?
24 A. No. There was no army and no Main Staff.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please move
1 into private session again.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
3 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the document
7 P0 -- 708 on the screen.
8 Q. As we can see on the screen, these are the minutes of the
9 43rd session of the Supreme Defence Council of the FRY held on the
10 29th of August, 1995.
11 Could we please see the following page. I'm interested in
12 conclusion number 2.
13 Conclusion 2 says that:
14 "Disciplinary or criminal proceedings shall be initiated against
15 professional members of the 40th Personnel Centre for whom there are
16 grounds to believe that they have committed a violation of discipline or
17 a criminal offence."
18 This is a conclusion of the Supreme Defence Council. We saw the
19 date. It was in August. So was this binding for the Chief of the
20 General Staff?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know, General, I believe you mentioned this in your answer
23 to Mr. Thomas, whether after the Operation Storm and after many people
24 went to the territory of the FRY that certain members of the Serbian Army
25 of Krajina requested to come back to the military service and to be
1 posted at particular posts within the army?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Before they were appointed to certain duties, did such person
4 need to be checked? What would you say?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At that time, were there military disciplinary courts and
7 military disciplinary jurisdiction in Krajina after the Storm?
8 A. The moment Krajina disappeared, all the military disciplinary
9 bodies and all other institutions disappeared as well. So there were no
10 more military disciplinary courts.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go back into an open
12 session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. I'm about to move on to my last set of questions stemming from
19 Mr. Thomas's questions. He showed you several articles of the Law on the
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to P197,
22 specifically Article 16. Page 2 in the B/C/S and page 5 in the English.
23 Can we zoom in, please, on Article 16.
24 Q. Paragraph 1 reads as follows:
25 "Generals and commanding officers performing duties for which the
1 rank of general has been determined in the establishment shall be
2 appointed to positions by the president of the republic. Other officers,
3 non-commissioned officers and soldiers shall be appointed to positions in
4 the army by the Chief of the General Staff or a commanding officer
5 authorised by him, and in the Federal Ministry of Defence by the federal
6 minister of defence or a commanding officer authorised by him."
7 Sir, when they talk about being appointed to positions, what
8 exactly does that mean?
9 A. Being appointed to positions means that persons are sent to a
10 particular unit. A person is then appointed to an establishment post by
11 his own superior officer. His service situation is then determined, what
12 is his duty, what is his position, and so on and so forth, any other
13 elements affecting that person's salary under the terms of duty.
14 Q. If we look at this article, it was the defence minister who
15 appointed you when your term began with the defence ministry; right?
16 A. Yes. He appointed me. And may I add something? The officer in
17 charge of both appointing a person to a general -- to a particular
18 position and generally the -- making an appointment writes up an order.
19 Q. Do you know who was in charge of that in the SVK and the VRS for
20 as long as the two armies were around?
21 A. Once a person was sent to serve with those armies, the service
22 situation would be dealt with by the appropriate officers under the
23 regulations of the VRS and the SVK, respectively. They were now at all
24 practical intents outside the chain of command of the VJ and were part of
25 the chain of command of these other armies.
1 Q. You were shown Article 8 of the Law on the VJ by both myself and
2 the Prosecutor, and you said something about paragraph 2 of that article
3 talking about the term "service" and what is considered as service.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go to Article 10 of
5 that same law, which should be on the previous page.
6 Q. This article defines what is defined as service relations. It
7 has been shown a number of times, therefore, I will not be reading it out
9 For as long as those officers were in the VRS, who did they have
10 service relations to, the VRS and the SVK?
11 A. They had service relations to their superiors in the VRS and the
12 SVK alone.
13 Q. Thank you. Let us now move on to Article 171, another article
14 that Mr. Thomas discussed with you. Rather, 177 and 178. Those are the
15 two that I'm interested in. B/C/S reference is page 15, and the English
16 reference is page 45.
17 This was shown to you by Mr. Thomas. You should have it in front
18 of you, sir. Mr. Thomas showed you how the law defines various military
19 courts, the first instance and then the higher military disciplinary
20 court. 177 -- 178 states that they'll be established at the General
21 Staff under the [indiscernible] of the army, air force and anti-aircraft
22 defence as well as the navy. The high military disciplinary court shall
23 be attached to the General Staff. It's actually quite specific. It is
24 specifically envisaged by the law; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. This may sound like too easy a question because we were looking
2 at those documents. What about the VRS and the SVK? Do they have their
3 own military disciplinary courts?
4 A. Yes, they did.
5 Q. Based on what regulations?
6 A. The Law on the Army of the VRS.
7 Q. What about the Krajina?
8 A. Yes, same thing. The Law on Defence.
9 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This concludes my re-examination,
11 Your Honours.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
14 Mr. Nikolic, thank you so much, that brings us to the end of your
15 testimony. We thank you very much for taking the time to come and
16 testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused. You may go home. Please
17 travel well back home.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I keep you a
19 minute or two?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, go ahead. As long as you don't say anything
21 that --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It won't take long.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing at all, really. I just
25 wish to thank you. You, the OTP, and the Defence for giving me an
1 opportunity to appear in this courtroom in order to tell the truth and
2 nothing but the truth. Another thanks goes to you, Your Honours, because
3 you had to reorganise the entire schedule for this day in order to meet
4 the requirements I expressed yesterday. I do wish to thank you yet again
5 for that.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic. Once again,
7 travel well back home. You are excused. You are -- you are excused.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just greet the Defence,
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. Just stand down, Mr. Nikolic.
11 They will greet you in due course just now. You are now excused. You
12 may stand down. We are still in court. You can't do your greetings.
13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We do have a witness lined up. I do
17 want to ask myself to exchange greetings with Mr. Nikolic. Therefore, I
18 think this might be a good opportunity for that if we take a break.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We will take a break and come back at
20 quarter to. Court adjourned.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.11 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The Defence is ready for our next
25 witness, Mr. Gajic, Branko.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be brought in.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 WITNESS: BRANKO GAJIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You may be seated, sir, and
9 good morning to you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good
11 morning to you, too.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
13 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
15 A. Good morning, Mr. Lukic.
16 Q. Will you please introduce yourself for the record.
17 A. My name is Branko Gajic.
18 Q. Mr. Gajic, you testified previously in two trials before this
19 Tribunal, and you know about the kind of problem we normally encounter
20 when both persons speak the same language during an examination.
21 Therefore, I would like to ask you to pause each time before you start
22 answering a question. I'll also do my best to make a pause after each of
23 your answers to give the interpreters a chance to accurately interpret
24 the proceedings.
25 A. I understand, Mr. Lukic.
1 Q. Now that I've mentioned this, can you specify the trials in which
2 you've testified and on whose behalf you appeared.
3 A. Your Honours, I have appeared twice. The first time was in the
4 Milutinovic, Sainovic, Ojdanic, Pavkovic et al. trial, and I appeared as
5 an Ojdanic Defence witness. I also testified in the case against
6 Ramush Haradinaj as an OTP witness.
7 Q. Mr. Gajic, I will read back to you portions from your CV which I
8 believe are relevant. Please specify if the information is correct --
9 rather, confirm that the information is correct.
10 A. I understand.
11 Q. You were born in 1946; right?
12 A. 1944.
13 Q. You completed the Belgrade Military Academy in 1967, did you not?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Up until 1972, you were engaged on what they term "troop
16 activities"; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Between 1972 and your retirement, you worked with the security
19 bodies of the JNA and later the VJ; right?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. During your first period there you were with the Guards Brigade;
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In the meantime, you had completed your education with the
25 military staff academy in 1978, did you not?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. Also, the General Staff School of the German Bundeswehr in
3 Hamburg in 1981; right?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. Up until 1986, you worked as a clerk in the SSNO's security
6 administration; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were then chief of security in a division stationed in
9 Osijek, Croatia, between 1986 and 1988; right?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. And after that, up until October 1990, you worked as chief of
12 security in the Tuzla Corps in Bosnia and Herzegovina, did you not?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. In 1990, you completed the war academy, which was later renamed
15 the National Defence School, which was the highest body of military
16 education in Yugoslavia at the time; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Between 1990 and 1992, you worked with the security
19 administration as assistant chief and then later chief of the first
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Between 1992 and April 1994, you worked as chief of the security
23 sector of the 1st Army of the VJ; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Between 1994 and the 31st of December, 2002, you were back with
1 the security administration as chief of the counter-intelligence
2 department. You also worked as assistant chief and deputy chief of the
3 security administration, and you continued in that position until
4 April 1999.
5 A. Yes, but it wasn't 2001 -- it wasn't 2002, rather. It was 2001.
6 Q. Yes, that's right. You were, in fact, pensioned off on the
7 31st of December, 2001; right?
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Over that last period you worked as assistant chief of the
10 security administration, did you not?
11 A. Yes, that's quite right.
12 Q. You retired as a general -- major general.
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. You were, in fact, born in the Republic of Croatia, weren't you?
15 A. Yes. That's right as well.
16 Q. Mr. Gajic, could we first discuss what it is exactly that
17 security bodies do, and what is the difference between their remit and
18 that of intelligence bodies, just to put the Trial Chamber in the
19 picture. What exactly do security bodies in an army do?
20 A. Mr. Lukic, the fundamental tasks and obligations of security
21 bodies, in the VJ at least, were counter-intelligence protection of the
22 VJ and the country's defence from any activities by foreign intelligence
23 and counter-intelligence services, from terrorist organisations and crime
25 The main task of a military intelligence administration breaks
1 down as follows: They organise a gathering of intelligence and
2 information abroad and not domestically in order to identify any
3 indicators of a possible aggression against the FRY. Conditionally
4 speaking, the security administration might be defined as a defensive
5 service; and the intelligence administration is, in a manner of speaking,
6 an offensive service.
7 Q. You mentioned counter-intelligence activity and said that this
8 was something for the security bodies. Can you please explain that term?
9 What is it called that?
10 A. Well, the concept itself suggests an answer. "Counter" means
11 "against." An army faces a threat. Perhaps the army itself, perhaps a
12 threat from abroad, and then we use some measures peculiar to our work
13 and technology peculiar to our work in order to ward off these threats.
14 That is what we call counter-intelligence activity.
15 Q. I think this applies to both the JNA and the VJ. What were the
16 relations between the security bodies and the intelligence bodies?
17 A. There was co-operation, and there was a mutual exchange of
18 intelligence and information.
19 Q. What sort of information were you sending their way, and what
20 sort of information were they sending your way?
21 A. Mr. Lukic, we in the military intelligence administration were
22 providing any information that were relevant in terms of the foreign
23 element. We monitored this foreign element as a potential threat to
24 Yugoslavia's security, whereas they provided to us information that had
25 to do with protecting the VJ as a whole.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think the term stated on page 31,
2 word 22, where it says security organs as military intelligence
3 administration is not good. I think we should be using "security
4 administration," what the security organs are doing, since we'll be using
5 these terms quite frequently. I hope the interpreters agree with this.
6 Q. Could you please give me an example just for the sake of
7 Their Honours. What were you focused at? What were you interested in?
8 What was it that you protected, and what was it that the intelligence
9 administration focused on?
10 A. Mr. Lukic, we protected -- let me give you an example. For
11 example, specific plans of preparation and engagement of the Army of
12 Yugoslavia, so war plans. Furthermore, we protected individuals,
13 officers who were at high positions which were very sensitive positions
14 since they -- they were aware of very many sensitive military
15 information. So we protected military information. Furthermore, we
16 protected weapons and equipment which were often subject of attacks or
18 Q. Thank you. And intelligence bodies. You mentioned war plans,
19 for example. What would it be that the intelligence organs would be
20 interested in? Whose war plans?
21 A. Intelligence organs were interested in plans of potential
22 aggressors against Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
23 Q. Thank you. Could we now take a look at some documents concerning
24 what we've just said.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
1 comment -- I would like this witness to comment on the rules of the
2 security military bodies. Document is D89.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before he does that, at page 32, lines 21 to 22,
4 the witness says: "Intelligence organs were interested in plans of
5 potential aggressors against Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."
6 From what -- how he described the security and the intelligence
7 organs, it seems to me that would be a job of the security. That's
8 defensive, not offensive. How would you expect the intelligence or
9 against to concentrate on spying the weaknesses in the other -- in the
10 enemy and telling them so that they know how to attack?
11 Am I missing something? Maybe he can explain.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Maybe that would be best in order for me not to provide an
15 A. Your Honours, Military Intelligence Service of the Army of
16 Yugoslavia was in charge of setting up its intelligence centres abroad,
17 through which by applying secret methods, so using different technical
18 means they gathered the information that I referred to previously.
19 Secondly, there was also a possibility to legally collect
20 information, because the intelligence administration was a competent body
21 for directing and guiding the work of accredited military representatives
22 of Yugoslavia who worked abroad.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Carry on, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. We talked about protection of various plans. Was it a task of a
1 security body to protect plans of the Army of Yugoslavia from being
2 discovered by foreign intelligence services?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And was it a task of the intelligence body to discover the plans
5 of potential foreign enemies and inform the relevant instances about
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now we will take a look at this document.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will invite it in the e-court as a
10 document from 65 ter list of the OTP, 6063.
11 Your Honours, just for your information, and I already discussed
12 this with Mr. Saxon to see how we could resolve this technical problem.
13 So we're talking about rules of service of security organs. This is
14 Exhibit D89, which we tendered through the witness Raseta, but we only
15 tendered some of the articles. Now I will ask this witness to look at
16 some other articles. Mr. Saxon and myself agreed that we might tender
17 this entire document into evidence. It is not so small, not too large
18 either. It has some 40 pages. So once both me and Mr. Saxon are done
19 with all of the articles that we are interested in, it will be up to you
20 to decide whether you want to admit this entire document into evidence or
21 not. So I would like to start now, and then we will see what your
22 decision will be once we -- once we are done.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you start, just so that we avoid any
24 confusion and any mistakes, you have called this document by two names.
25 You have called it 65 ter 6063. You've called it D89. You have told us
1 that part of it has already been tendered, part has not been tendered.
2 You're now going to ask this witness to comment on the parts that have
3 not been tendered. Certainly, surely, those parts that have not been
4 tendered could not be part of D89. So I think it's a misnomer to call it
6 Either we're going to look at the new pages and finally agree
7 that they form part of D89 or give them a different number.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I also raised this with the
9 secretariat, and I believe it might be best to receive a new exhibit
10 number once I'm finished, and then later on we might put a link between
11 these two exhibits. I believe this might be the best solution.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's decide that at the time. For now, let us
13 just make it clear on the record that the pages we are going to look at
14 are not part of D89.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.
16 Q. So this document was written in 1984 and issued by the Federal
17 Secretariat of People's Defence -- or National Defence. Mr. Gajic, as
18 you know, we are interested in the period after the year 1992. So were
19 these rules of service of security organs in the Socialist Federative
20 Republic of Yugoslavia applied at the time when General Perisic was
21 Chief of General Staff?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at
24 Article 1. This is on page 5 in B/C/H, and page 6 in English. Just a
25 second, please.
1 Q. Mr. Gajic, Article 1 is the one you can see on the screen. Could
2 you please comment what is described here as "The competence of security
3 organs." I will read the second part of paragraph 1.
4 "Security organs as expert organs take -- carry out security
5 tasks as described by the law and regulations adopted pursuant to the law
6 in order to detect and prevent activities aimed at subverting or
7 disrupting the social order established by the constitution and
8 threatening the country's security. If such an activities is carried out
9 in the armed forces or against the armed forces from within the country
10 or from abroad, and also for the purposes of detecting and protecting
11 activities aimed at breaching the secrecy of the plans and preparations
12 for the country's defence."
13 So what was the subject of protection?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You indicate that you're going to ask to tender
15 this document. You indicated that it's fairly large. Can we avoid
16 reading it if we are going to tender it? Maybe if the witness can just
17 read it quietly and comment on it rather than you reading it into the
18 record and then later tendering it again.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. You're absolutely right. And
20 this is in line with your guidelines. So I will not read it into the
21 transcript. I will just ask the witness to comment on specific articles.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, in this Article 1 what
23 is important here is that security organs as specialist organs of
24 commands, units and institutions of the Army of Yugoslavia are
25 responsible, and this is the key, to protect military forces if such an
1 activity is carried out in the armed forces or against the armed forces
2 from within the country or from abroad. And then secondly, also for the
3 purposes of detecting and preventing activities aimed at breaching the
4 secrecy of the plans and preparations of armed force -- of the armed
6 So this is what matters here.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You do not need to read this out, but, rather, comment. I asked
9 you what was the subject of protection of the security organs. Could you
10 answer that in just one sentence?
11 A. Thank you. I understood this. So they protect the Army of
12 Yugoslavia and its preparations for the country's defence.
13 Q. Could we now see page 6 in B/C/S and page 7 in English, and we
14 will see what were the tasks of the security organs.
15 Articles 6 and 7 of these rules describe the tasks, and they
16 distinguish between two types of activity of the security organs.
17 Article 6 mentions the activities that the security organs are
18 responsible for, and Article 7 describes activities that security organs
19 participate in.
20 Why was this distinction made between these two types of
21 activities of the security organs? So on the one hand, they were
22 responsible for some tasks; and on the other hand, they participated in
23 some other tasks.
24 A. Mr. Lukic, well, if we say that the security organs were
25 responsible for some activities, this means that it was only their
1 responsibility for tasks listed, for example, under item A here, for
2 detection, tracking and preventing the intelligent activities and other
3 activities of foreign military intelligence and so on. So they were
4 responsible. And then all other elements of the command, other secret
5 services, civil secret services, military services, they participated in
6 carrying out these tasks.
7 And in Article 7, if I could please have a look at Article 7.
8 Q. Just a second, please. Before we move to the next page, what you
9 just described under (a), was this the key fundamental task that the
10 security organs were responsible for?
11 A. Yes. Under (b) you can also see that they were responsible for
12 the detection and prevention of hostile activities by individuals, groups
13 or organisations against the armed forces. So it is important to point
14 out that we had to discover secret activities. So we were not interested
15 in verbal offences, what was uttered.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have a look at
17 the following page, Article 7. If we could just once again mention what
18 the witness emphasised -- or, actually, this is okay. Thank you.
19 Q. Article 7 consists of several paragraphs describing the tasks in
20 which the security organs participated. You also said this already. So
21 when we are talking about this paragraph (a), why are security organs
22 participating in this activity rather than being responsible for it?
23 Could you tell us that? Could you see it -- can you see it?
24 A. Yes, I can. Mr. Lukic, security organs participated in this
25 because the praxis had shown, when we're talking about this item (a), and
1 this is detection and prevention of serious crimes and so on, most often
2 it was civilians who were involved in such activities, either in an
3 organised fashion or they perpetrated them individually. So it would be
4 different bodies that would be responsible for these tasks, and security
5 organs simply participated in trying to detect, for example, perpetrators
6 of thefts. So they were not responsible for this tasks, but it was the
7 Ministry of the Interior that would be responsible for such activities.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go to B/C/S page 8 and
9 English page 9. Item 10.
10 That's the right paragraph, the one that we see in English.
11 The first thing we see on that page is precisely what I'd like
12 the witness to comment on.
13 Q. Mr. Gajic, this last paragraph in item 10, what exactly do the
14 security organs do in terms of mobilisation plans, plans for the use of
15 the armed forces? What is their share in that?
16 A. Mr. Lukic, within this particular field of competence of the
17 security organs, they participate with two documents. One is the
18 assessment of the security situation, and the other is the drafting of a
19 counter-intelligence protection plan in terms of mobilisation plans as an
20 attachment to the mobilisation plan.
21 Q. Article 16, please, B/C/S page 9, English page 10. Article 16.
22 Could you comment on that, sir? This is an article that talks about the
23 chain of command. To put this in the most graphic terms, can you tell us
24 what Article 16 talks about?
25 A. I'll try to tackle this by using a specific example. The chief
1 of the security administration of the General Staff of the VJ is directly
2 subordinate to the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ in terms of
3 command and disciplinary responsibility. That is who he answers to for
4 his work, and he is also a member of his collegium.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask a question. What does the
6 acronym "NVO" stand for?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, "NVO" stands for
8 "Weapons and military equipment."
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. What does Article 18 say?
12 A. Mr. Lukic, let me try to give you a specific example of the
13 relations between the army's security organs and the corps' security
14 organs. The army-level security organ, or to be even more specific, the
15 chief of the security department of the army command in a technical sense
16 is superior to the chief of the corps security.
17 Q. When we look at this chain of the security organ and they use
18 this term "technical guidance." Why are they not using the term
19 "command"? Can a security organ of a higher command exercise command or
20 merely provide technical guidance? What is the distinction being drawn
22 A. There is a distinction, Mr. Lukic. That much is true. The first
23 example I talked about was the relationship between the chief of the
24 security administration and the Chief of the General Staff. Chief of the
25 General Staff has certain powers to do with technical guidance on a
1 counter-intelligence basis and he transfers these powers onto the chief
2 of the security administration, meaning the chief of the security
3 administration, as a result of that, can only be in charge of
4 counter-intelligence work of the security organs throughout Yugoslavia,
5 which entails no command responsibility. The only command responsibility
6 is borne by the commander. The principle thus defined is called
7 singleness of command.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Unity of command.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. The next thing we're moving on to is methods of work of the
11 security organ. I want you to comment for me on Article 29, paragraph 3.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The English reference is page 14,
13 Your Honours; the B/C/S page is 11. The B/C/S spills over into the next
15 Q. What does this paragraph tell us?
16 A. Can you please repeat the reference?
17 Q. I'll read it, because it actually spills over into the next page.
18 "Security organs are obliged to receive -- security organs are
19 responsible for checking the authenticity of any information received and
20 intelligence and to assess the motives and other facts independent of the
22 When we are talking about anonymous tip-offs they are --
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't see the rest of the text
24 on our screens.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. What do you specifically do in relation to this provision?
2 A. Mr. Lukic, checking or double-checking information intelligence
3 is a fundamental principle applied in the work of security organs. Quite
4 often intelligence or information can be second-hand or misinformation,
5 plain and simple, be it deliberate or not. It is our duty to process all
6 this information that we receive and check the information for
7 authenticity, ideally from a number of different sources.
8 As far as anonymous tip-offs are concerned, or anonymous letters,
9 we only check whenever we believe there is something involved that in
10 legalese might indicate a well-founded suspicion.
11 Q. How exactly does one define these crimes against the armed
12 forces? What are we talking about?
13 A. Can you please explain?
14 Q. Sure. This paragraph -- perhaps we should turn the next page for
15 your benefit, sir. It talks about anonymous tip-offs. It says only
16 those will be checked that indicate the commission of serious crimes
17 against the armed forces.
18 When it says "serious crimes," what exactly does that category
19 entail, just for the benefit of the Chamber?
20 A. Thank you for this explanation. For example, the -- there is a
21 terrorist action being planned, an attempt at someone's life, an attempt
22 to break into a military depot in order to steal weapons and military
23 equipment, or any other serious crime.
24 Q. Is crime a criminal offence against the armed forces?
25 A. No.
1 Q. What about the articles in this document that talk about your
2 service specifically, the security administration? Later on we'll say
3 more about how the one over at the General Staff worked. Article 57.
4 The B/C/S page reference is 18, and the English page reference is 23.
5 I will be eliciting your comments on several of these paragraphs.
6 It's quoted here as the SSNO, security administration. I don't think
7 there's any question about that in this courtroom. The security
8 administration when the VJ was established. Let's look at it that way.
9 Where was it, and who was it subordinated to, and later we'll take it
10 from there?
11 A. Mr. Lukic, the security administration, once the VJ had been
12 established, was one of the independent administrations attached to the
13 General Staff of the VJ and subordinated to the Chief of the
14 General Staff of the VJ.
15 Q. Article 57, paragraph 2, is that what we talked about a minute
16 ago, about technical guidance, or as the document states, "Specialist
17 management," as referred to previously in Article 18?
18 A. Yes, indeed.
19 Q. Article 64, B/C/S page 19, English page 24. Mr. Gajic, can you
20 have a look, please, and comment, if you can, on the specific activities
21 of the security administration.
22 A. Mr. Lukic, throughout the period of the former Yugoslavia and
23 also once the FRY had been established, we continued to have a degree of
24 co-operation with people from foreign counter-intelligence services and
25 agencies. The co-operation was established pursuant to approval by the
1 Chief of the General Staff and the presidents of the federal organs.
2 Q. There is reference to the SFRY Presidency in that document. What
3 was the relevant body later on when the constitution had been adopted and
4 provided guidance for your work?
5 A. The Supreme Defence Council and the president --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last part of
7 the witness's answer.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter didn't hear the last part of the
9 witness's answer, and could we please slow down.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Should I
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Supreme Defence Council -- the
14 approval was granted by the Supreme Defence Council and the president of
15 the FRY.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to wrap up this document,
17 and I think it might be a good idea to tender the document as a whole and
18 have it received, unless the Chamber believes that we would be better off
19 receiving only particular articles.
20 [The Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, do you have any comments before we ...
22 MR. SAXON: The Prosecution concurs with the suggestion of
23 Mr. Lukic, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Okay. Maybe the best way to do it
25 then is to upload into e-court those parts of Exhibit D9 which -- I beg
1 your pardon, those parts of this document which do not form part of D9 so
2 that D9 becomes a complete document. D89. I beg your pardon. Thank you
3 so much.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is the course of action that we
5 shall take, but is this about to be given a new number? Oh, no, it
6 isn't. Oh, fine. [In English] Okay. I understood, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Right. What about the place of the security
8 administration itself within the general structure of the General Staff?
9 D200 MFI, the order on the respective remits of organisational units.
10 We'll just be looking at the security administration for the time being.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the English reference
12 for that is -- translation that got in, that ID 1114D. [In English]
13 Sorry, sorry. Doc ID 11/0333.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Lukic. What's the relationship between
15 D200 MFI and this document that you're mentioning now?
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] D200 is the order on the respective
17 remits of organisational units. You remember we went through that with
18 General Simic and that's why it was MFI'd, because we talked with
19 Mr. Simic about his own organisational unit and with Mr. Nikolic we
20 talked about his organisational unit --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt? I just want to know whether D200
22 MFI and ID 11/0333 are one and the same document.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What you have in English is a
24 portion of D200 MFI, but you see page 1 in B/C/S, and if you fast forward
25 to Article 24, you will have both the English and the B/C/S in front of
1 you. I'll track the page down for --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is -- what is the number of the document you
3 are calling?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] D200 MFI --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: So --
6 MR. LUKIC: -- [In English] is the exhibit, and the rest is
7 English translation of part of this document.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Fine. Let's just call it as D200 MFI and
9 just don't use the other number because it's got to come in both
10 languages if you call it by -- as an exhibit.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic. You may proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 27 in English, if we could see
14 that, please. I'm sorry, this is in -- page reference in Serbian.
15 Q. General, this is the document entitled "Order on organisational
16 units of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia." We will now have
17 a look at --
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we could just see the previous
19 page in B/C/S, please. No, the next page. The next page. I'm sorry.
20 Thank you. This is fine. If we could just scroll down a bit.
21 Q. General, security administration of the General Staff of the VJ
22 in the period after the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia was
23 established. So there was no more Federal Secretariat, but, rather, the
24 Army of Yugoslavia was set up. So what kind of organisational unit was
25 the security administration at that time? Who was it subordinated to?
1 A. Mr. Lukic, in the period that you mentioned, the security
2 administration was one of the independent administrations of the
3 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia directly subordinated to the
4 Chief of General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.
5 Q. And was this true of the entire period from 1994 onwards while
6 General Perisic was Chief of General Staff?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, in this Article 24, we can see what were the main functions
9 of this administration. There are several listed here, so we can see
10 here counter-intelligence activity. Well, I asked you at the very
11 beginning what was the counter-intelligence activity of the security
12 organs. Can you tell us something about the counter-intelligence
13 activity of the security administration, and let me ask you straight away
14 whether you were at the head of the counter-intelligence department?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So you are the right witness to explain this. What was the main
17 task of your department within the security administration?
18 A. Mr. Lukic, the main task of the counter-intelligence department
19 was detection, monitoring of all -- and prevention of all the factors
20 that could threat the Army of Yugoslavia. So any activities of the
21 foreign intelligence and counter-intelligence units, terrorism, or crime.
22 So anything within the Army of Yugoslavia or directed towards the
23 Army of Yugoslavia.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the following
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we zoom in on the English, please. It's so
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just find the portion that I
4 would like to read out. Just a second, please.
5 Q. What I'm interested in, I'm not sure whether this is the correct
6 page in English. It says: "Creates and evaluates analysis and
7 information on intelligence, terrorist and subversive activities carried
8 out within the Army of Yugoslavia or against the Army of Yugoslavia for
9 the needs of security organs."
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we please see the next page
11 in English so that the Chamber might follow us.
12 Q. Can you see this portion, Mr. Gajic, and could you please
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is paragraph 2 in
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, on the basis of
17 collected intelligence and information, department for analysis of the
18 security administration created different analysis and assessments of
19 such information, and on the basis of this they created certain reports
20 which they submitted to the relevant bodies so that they could make
21 appropriate decisions.
22 At the same time, they would pass this information to the
23 security organs of the Army of Yugoslavia so that they would be informed
24 and so that their activities would be guided in this way.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Who would assess and make analysis at the security administration
2 which information would be passed on to the military and state
3 authorities, and which information would be passed on to the lower-level
5 A. Mr. Lukic, the main decision was made by the chief of the
6 security administration on the basis of the proposal made by the chief of
7 the counter-intelligence department, and this was me, and also chief of
8 security department.
9 Q. Let us just say for the sake of the record at the time when
10 Mr. Perisic was Chief of the General Staff, who was the chief of the
11 security administration?
12 A. During that time chief of security administration was
13 General Aleksandar Dimitrijevic. Could I also provide one additional
14 answer? You asked me who would decide which information would be sent to
15 whom. I need to say that we could also have a different situation when
16 Chief of the General Staff requested some information on certain issues,
17 and even the Supreme Defence Council could request some information.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm now done with this document, so I
20 would kindly ask for this English translation to also be tendered into
21 evidence. So this is D200, but it still needs to be MFI'd because it
22 hasn't been translated entirely yet.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: When we MFI'd this document, it was because it was
24 not translated. Now you are -- you're saying you have an English
25 translation, but you still want it MFI'd because it is not translated.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We still do not have the translation
2 of the entire document, Your Honour. The document has some 40 pages. We
3 now provided one portion of the translation, but we still do not have the
4 entire translation. As soon as we have the entire translation ...
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what does this new translation come under?
6 What number is it you -- D what?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will tell you. This is [In
8 English] doc ID 1D11/0333.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That's then -- becomes part of
10 D200 MFI.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Gajic, now we will move from these theoretical considerations
13 to some more practical issues. I would like to learn more about the
14 functioning of the security department -- security administration when we
15 are talking about the internal structure. So there was chief of the
16 security administration. Was there any other body within the security
17 administration? What was its name, and what was its function?
18 A. Mr. Lukic, organisationally speaking, security administration was
19 divided into four departments, and also we had another organisation that
20 was called Counter-intelligence Technical Centre that was directly linked
21 to the security administration. The first department was
22 counter-intelligence department. I was the head of that department, and
23 I think I explained its function. The second department was department
24 of analysis. I believe I also explained its function and its tasks. The
25 third department was military police department, because the security
1 administration was also in charge of professional guidelines of the
2 military police units, provision of equipment for the military police,
3 training the personnel of the military police, and it was only up to the
4 commander to decide on the engagement of the military police. And the
5 fourth department was the logistics department which also encompassed one
6 section that dealt with personnel-related issues.
7 When it comes to the operational and technical centre of the
8 security administration, this was an organisational unit that dealt with
9 application of the counter-intelligence work.
10 Q. Apart from these organisational units, was there any other body,
11 so to say, in which representatives of different organisational units
12 met, and how did this body function?
13 A. Thank you, Mr. Lukic, for this question. I left this out. So
14 there was a collegium of the chief of the security administration. The
15 collegium was composed of the chiefs of all the departments that I
16 mentioned previously and also the chief of the counter-intelligence
17 operations centre.
18 Q. How often would the collegium meet? Was there any rule?
19 A. Mr. Lukic, the collegium of the chief of the security
20 administration met every Monday, most often after -- immediately after
21 the collegium of the Chief of the General Staff. So between noon and
22 1.00. So these were regular meetings, and if necessary, the collegium
23 could be convened also on additional times.
24 Q. You mentioned the function of the deputy chief of security
25 administration. Was this a separate position or did somebody hold a
1 different position and in addition was also chief of -- sorry, deputy
2 chief of the security administration?
3 A. This was a separate position. The deputy chief of the security
4 administration replaced chief of the security administration if the chief
5 was absent, and the counter-intelligence work was obviously the task of
6 the counter-intelligence department and its chief primarily.
7 Q. Would anybody from the security administration participate in the
8 meetings of the collegium of the Chief of the General Staff, and who?
9 A. Mr. Lukic, it was chief of the security administration who
10 attended meetings of the collegium of the Chief of the General Staff.
11 Only if the chief was unable to participate in the meetings of the
12 cleanup then it would be his deputy. And if neither the chief nor the
13 deputy could attend those meetings then I would attend them.
14 Q. Did the security administration have any duty officers or duty
15 teams, and could you explain how this duty service was organised?
16 A. Yes. The security administration had its duty operative team,
17 the duty operative team of the security administration which consisted of
18 three persons, and they were on duty 24 hours a day. I can also tell you
19 what were their tasks.
20 Q. Well, that was my next question. What was their task?
21 A. Mr. Lukic, their task was the following: All the information
22 that they received during a day from the subordinated security organs and
23 all the documents, obviously, they had to compile a daily report on the
24 basis of all of this, which included the most significant
25 security-related data. And that report was then every morning on the
1 following day at 8.00 a.m. be submitted to the chief of the security
2 administration and those of us who were members of his collegium.
3 Q. Does this mean that this report was written internally, just for
4 the security administration purposes, or was it drafted for somebody
6 A. Mr. Lukic, this was an internal document of the security
7 administration, but we also made an extract from that report. That
8 extract consisted of some six to seven sentences, not more, and that
9 extract was taken to the General Staff operations centre, and there there
10 was also a duty operative team and a representative of the security body
11 within that team.
12 Q. Well, this is what I wanted to clarify now. We already heard
13 some testimonies concerning the duty operative team of the General Staff,
14 so could you please tell us, what was the relation between the
15 General Staff duty operative team and the security administration?
16 A. Mr. Lukic, the duty operative team at the operations centre was
17 formed pursuant to an order of the General Staff, and the order also
18 specifies the persons that participated in that duty operative team, and
19 among them was also a representative of the security administration.
20 The duty operative team met every evening at about 9.00 p.m.
21 Most often I was the person that attended the meetings of the duty
22 operative team, and I carried with me that extract, those six or seven
23 sentences containing the most relevant data on what had happened in the
24 previous 24 hours. So they were representatives of all the different
25 sectors, all administrations, and we would read out those short reports
1 and discuss them, reports concerning different areas of responsibility.
2 And after our discussions, we would define what would be entered into the
3 document of the duty operative team, and that report would be submitted
4 in the morning to the Chief of General Staff and members of his
6 Q. Did the security administration, in addition to these daily
7 reports, submit any other reports to the Chief of the General Staff?
8 A. Mr. Lukic, the security administration submitted to the Chief of
9 General Staff and members of the Supreme Defence Council on a regular
10 basis monthly information, and these monthly information included data on
11 the most significant events and problems during -- that occurred during
12 the previous months. In addition, the security administration also
13 drafted the so-called problem-related information sheets for the Chief of
14 General Staff and sometimes also for members of the Supreme Defence
15 Council. I will mention some examples.
16 For example, if we had a large-scale theft of weapons and the
17 perpetrators were unknown, a team of security personnel would be engaged
18 in trying to detect the perpetrators. So if we discovered who the
19 perpetrators were, on the basis of all of our actions and information
20 collected, we would compile an information sheet and inform the Chief of
21 the General Staff about this. So how come that this could happen? What
22 were the problems, the breaches in the security? Who were the
23 participants in this crime, whether any military personnel participated
24 and we would also propose certain measures. And obviously it would be up
25 to the chief to decide on such measures.
1 Thirdly, if I may, there were quite many demands by the Chief of
2 the General Staff for assessments to be forwarded, as I said.
3 Q. The monthly report that you defined as a regular report forwarded
4 to the Chief of General Staff and the Supreme Defence Council, is that
5 the same sort of report that is then dispatched to both these addresses
6 or are two separate reports drafted for that purpose?
7 A. Mr. Lukic, there was just a single difference between the two.
8 In the report to the Chief of the General Staff and the president of the
9 Supreme Defence Council, there was a section covering the military
10 police. Other than that, they were identical in terms of substance.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have told us no difference, sir. Your answer
12 says: "There was just a single difference between the two. In the
13 report to the Chief of the General Staff and the president of the Supreme
14 Defence Council, there was a section covering the military police. Other
15 than that, they were identical in terms of substance."
16 So they seem to be identical all the way through. There's no --
17 you haven't shown any difference at all. You've told us that the two
18 that go to the two authorities cover military police.
19 Can you give the answer again and try to tell us what the
20 difference is between the report that goes to the Chief of the
21 General Staff and the president of the Supreme Defence Council.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the monthly report
23 sent to the Chief of the General Staff and the president of the
24 Supreme Defence Council, there were two components; the
25 counter-intelligence component and the military police involvement
1 component. As for the -- all the other members of the Supreme Defence
2 Council, no information on the military police involvement was included,
3 that being the only difference.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this might be a
7 good time for our break.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is indeed. We will take a break and come back
9 at half past 12.00. Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. General, we spoke about those meetings and the security
15 administration, the collegium, the duty operations team, information like
16 that. In addition to what we have been discussing, were there any daily
17 meetings that were being held by certain individuals in the security
19 A. Mr. Lukic, there were indeed daily meetings being held, attended
20 by the chief security administration, by me, and sometimes the deputy
21 chief. These took place each morning. We would drink coffee and then go
22 on to analyse the daily operative reports that I referred to earlier on.
23 At these normally brief meetings, the chief of the security
24 administration would hand out assignments if there were any to
25 distribute, after which we would try and reach an agreement on what we
1 would be doing over the course of that day. At the end of each day,
2 meaning sometime past 2000 hours, we would meet again to analyse what we
3 could achieve in terms of covering the assignments discussed that same
4 morning, and to see whether there were any tasks we were facing for the
5 following day. We discussed a number of other issues of present concern
6 as well.
7 Q. I would like to move on to something entirely different.
8 Mr. Gajic, what about your involvement and that of the security
9 administration? Did you know anything about information suggesting there
10 were undercover secret campaigns of people arming themselves prior to
11 1990? Who exactly -- prior to the break-up of the country, who exactly
12 was arming themselves?
13 A. Yes, indeed, Mr. Lukic. I was with the security administration
14 of the team. The chief of the security administration was
15 General Aleksandar Vasiljevic. We monitored this, and we tried to
16 uncover any attempts to obtain illegal weapons. Even throughout the
17 former Yugoslavia that was one of the points on which the security
18 administration focused. It was quite difficult to monitor these
19 difficulties in what used to be the Republic of Croatia and then in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina as well, and to some extent, I suppose, also Kosovo
21 and Metohija.
22 Q. What sort of information did you manage to obtain?
23 A. Mr. Lukic, we came across information that throughout the
24 Republic of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina there were two large-scale
25 paramilitary formations being established. In Croatia's case this was
1 the National Guards Corps. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Patriotic
2 League of Nations, or the National Patriotic League, and this was
3 something that was done pursuant to decisions taken by the republican
4 leaderships, Dr. Tudjman in Croatia and Alija Izetbegovic in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. These paramilitary formations were now to be armed.
6 They were first established in order to enter into armed clashes with the
7 then-JNA for purposes of breaking away.
8 We monitored these illegal arming activities throughout 1990, and
9 particularly in 1991, we managed to uncover about nine large-scale
10 illegal channels through which these weapons were arriving. Six of these
11 had to do with Croatia, two having to do with Bosnia and Herzegovina, and
12 a single one was, in fact, in Kosovo and Metohija?
13 Q. Having obtained that kind of information, what exactly did you
14 do? What steps did you take, and what did that lead to?
15 A. Mr. Lukic, in Croatia's case, we staged an operation that was
16 conducted by General Vasiljevic as chief of the administration
17 personally. The operation was called Operation Shield. During this, we
18 obtained incontrovertible material evidence of illegal weapons coming in.
19 What one needed to do was arrest the perpetrators but there was a
20 political decision that was taken not to do that, to abstain from
21 arresting those people. This in turn led to the outbreak of war in
22 Croatia back in 1991 and Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992.
23 Q. Operation Shield, you say. Was that the operation that involved
24 Spegelj, and was the public duly informed?
25 A. Yes, that's right. It was also known as Operation Spegelj, and
1 the public was duly informed, as well as both the military and political
2 leaderships. There was detailed information provided on that as well as
3 some footage that was shown to the general public in Yugoslavia and
4 abroad demonstrating that Croatia was preparing for war and obtaining
5 weapons, although the Security Council Resolutions clearly --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: Sorry to interrupt, Your Honours. I've let this gone
8 on for a while but I must ask my colleague, please, if he can explain
9 what is the relevance of this evidence to the issues of this case.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] During this trial the Prosecution has
12 brought up a lot of evidence about the period preceding the eruption of
13 armed conflicts, situations having to do with illegal weapons being
14 brought in, and they talked about the situation before 1992, the
15 existence of local Territorial Defence units and generally all of the
16 three ethnic groups arming themselves. I think this is relevant
17 primarily in order to demonstrate how the three armies came about, or
18 even six or seven armies, how they came about. I think this has a direct
19 bearing on some counts in the indictment, especially the criminal
20 responsibility of Mr. Perisic in terms of aiding and abetting. Then, on
21 the other hand, this has to do with the events that preceded the charges.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll allow the question to go on.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I won't press the point any further, but I am going to address
25 the general period.
1 Can you put us in the right frame, generally speaking. Operation
2 Shield, when was its cover blown?
3 A. Sometime in late 1991 or perhaps early 1992.
4 Q. General, do you have any direct personal knowledge or
5 professional second-hand knowledge about the situations of the members of
6 the offices of the JNA in the then still -- the unified and single
7 Yugoslavia back in 1991 and 1992 in the individual republics?
8 A. Mr. Lukic, the situation throughout Yugoslavia, both in a
9 political and military sense, was quite complex and complicated. If we
10 look at the situation of the JNA officers, both proper officers and NCOs,
11 the worst place for them to be was Croatia. They were facing a lot of
12 propaganda pressure and even open threats that sometimes went as far as
13 people being evicted from their flats. Their wives were being fired from
14 their jobs, and mixed marriages were under particular pressure, for
15 example, in cases where you had a Serbian husband and a Croat wife. The
16 wives would get lots of pressure to get a divorce, to divorce from these
17 Chetnik officers. That was the going phrase at the time. Their children
18 were mistreated in kindergarten, school, elementary schools, secondary
19 schools, universities. Many of them no longer even dared go to school
20 and the children would, for that reason, remain at home.
21 People were being harassed by telephone, in their homes.
22 Normally this type of harassment would occur sometime between midnight
23 and 4.00 in the morning, and the messages being put across were to the
24 effect of "Go away. Run back to Serbia. We'll kill you. We'll cut your
25 throat," and suchlike.
1 Q. Where did you get this information, sir?
2 A. Mr. Lukic, I have personal experience of this. It was pursuant
3 to an order by the chief of the security administration, General
4 Vasiljevic, that I spent the period between the 1st and 7th of July 1991
5 in Croatia in order to carry out an inspection. In fact, I visited or
6 toured six or seven different garrisons where brigade-level units were
7 stationed. I spoke directly to officers belonging to -- to all the
8 different ethnic groups. Not just the Serbs there but also the Croats,
9 the Muslims, and everyone else. They confirmed this and also shared with
10 me a number of other even more serious incidents, but our time is short
11 and I'm not pressing this any further.
12 Q. Did cases such as these occur in Bosnia and Herzegovina as well
13 and, if so, when?
14 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, this type of thing emerged at a
15 somewhat later date. I was chief of security until October 1990, and you
16 can say that things were relatively quiet at this time. It wasn't before
17 late 1990, when the people's Patriotic League was established as a
18 paramilitary formation, that the first symptoms started to crop up as
19 they had previously in Croatia.
20 Q. What about the period while Yugoslavia still existed? Let's talk
21 about 1990 and all the way up until late 1991. Were there any attacks on
22 the barracks in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, JNA military
23 installations? What exactly was happening?
24 A. Mr. Lukic, at the time you specified, in Croatia most of the
25 barracks were under siege or being blocked by paramilitaries. Therefore,
1 the communication between officers was quite limited. They had to be
2 protected by armed escorts because it was too risky for them to leave
3 those compounds on their own. Secondly, sometimes their electricity and
4 water supplies would be cut off.
5 Q. Who was doing this?
6 A. The local authorities for the most part, the newly established
7 ones. The extremists had now come to power, for the most part belonging
8 to the leading political party. I'm talking the most extremist faction
9 of the HDZ.
10 Q. And who was it that was having their electricity and water
11 supplies cut off?
12 A. The barracks, the officers and the soldiers there. What is
13 particularly noteworthy, if I may add, is that combat-readiness measures
14 had been raised already by this time. Therefore, the officers and
15 soldiers would spend all their lives around the clock in these barracks.
16 Now, imagine what their situation must have been given the fact that they
17 had no electricity or water in there.
18 Q. Thank you very much. Do you have any direct knowledge of any
19 developments in April 1992 regarding the withdrawal of the JNA from
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
21 A. Mr. Lukic, I was back with the security administration by this
22 time. I had been transferred from the 1st Army back to the security
23 administration. We had an operations duty team, and we received
24 information and some documents to the effect that a clash was in the
25 offing with the army. Their leadership was behind this, and the former
1 JNA Territorial Defence had been now transformed into their own
2 Territorial Defence. The People's Patriotic League was also readying for
3 clashes with the JNA.
4 Q. I assume you misspoke when you said the former JNA Territorial
5 Defence. The Territorial Defence in the old system, what was it part of?
6 A. The armed forces.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a 65 ter document from
8 the Defence list, 65 ter 00381D.
9 I have a binder here, as a matter of fact, which I forgot to hand
10 over to the witness. Maybe it might be easier for the witness to
11 consult. So he might as well keep it there.
12 Q. Can you see this document on the screen, Mr. Gajic, before you
13 receive the paper version? Can you see it?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. So this is a decision on the withdrawal of JNA units from the
16 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated 27 April 1992, decision
17 adopted by the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
18 signed by Alija Izetbegovic.
19 First of all, have you seen this document before?
20 A. Mr. Lukic, I already saw this document on the 27th of April, when
21 it was adopted, because the chief of the security, Colonel Bjelosevic,
22 who was the staff of the Territorial Defence, he was replaced when the
23 new authorities came. However, he kept some of his competencies and he
24 sent this document to us.
25 Q. What do you mean by "us"?
1 A. To the security administration. I apologise.
2 Q. Under the II, can you please read what it says and comment on it?
3 A. Mr. Lukic, in the first paragraph of Article II, members of the
4 JNA are invited, those that were in the territory of the Republic of
5 Bosnia and to, Herzegovina join the newly formed forces of the
6 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and to place themselves at
7 their disposal. And in the second paragraph, it is stated that those
8 members of the JNA who did not wish to place themselves at their
9 disposals shall have all their rights guaranteed and that no actions
10 would be taken against them or members of their families.
11 Q. Did you have any information as to whether JNA officers who
12 joined the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, whether they
13 received any salaries?
14 A. Mr. Lukic, the largest number of those who joined the
15 Territorial Defence were people of Muslim nationality, and some of them
16 were also of Croatian nationality. As far as I know, their -- they took
17 it upon themselves to pay out their salaries.
18 Q. Article III is rather clear. I would like to take a look at VI
19 and VII. Could you read those and tell us what was your impression of
20 this entire document when you saw it?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the following page in
22 English, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, if you allow me, I will
24 comment on Article VI first of all. If you look at the contents of this
25 article, you can see that it is politically correct, so to say, but this
1 was written for the sake of the general public. In the field, however,
2 the situation went in a rather opposite direction. So what we knew at
3 our security administration at the time was that conflict and even an
4 armed conflict was imminent.
5 And Article VII is linked to Article VI, and it explains that all
6 the problems will be resolved between authorised organs of the former JNA
7 and the state organs of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document
9 into evidence.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
13 Exhibit D262. Thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see on the screen
16 Exhibit D00381. I apologise. We already saw that one. Just a second,
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we please see the document
20 from the Defence 65 ter list, 00377D.
21 Q. General, have you seen this document? This is a document -- this
22 is the document of the Ministry for People's Defence, Territorial Defence
23 Staff, signed by Mr. Hasan Efendic.
24 A. Yes, I have seen this document.
25 Q. Where did you see it?
1 A. We received it in the same way in which we received the previous
3 Q. Could you please read item 1, and could you please comment. So
4 what was your impression of this document once you received it in your
6 A. Mr. Lukic, item 1 says that a complete and full-scale blockade of
7 all roads in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina was to be carried
8 out. So wherever units of the former JNA have begun to pull out materiel
9 and technical equipment, and this had to be done in direct co-ordination
10 with the Ministry of the Interior.
11 When we received this document, this entire document, you're now
12 only asking about item 1, there was no reason whatsoever to issue an
13 order of this kind, because the Yugoslav Army in the two days between the
14 27th of April when the Presidency made its decision and the 29th of April
15 did not make any step which would call for an order of this kind. And if
16 I may add, because I was at the security administration at the time, I
17 know that the representative of the federal secretary for defence,
18 Mr. Adzic at the time, was engaged in exchange of letters with Presidency
19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and these letters had to do with an attempt to
20 resolve issues in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the political level and for
21 the JNA to act in accordance with whatever political solution was decided
23 Q. In item 3, we can see that it was requested to prevent
24 unannounced leaving of JNA units from their barracks without the escort
25 of the MUP. So did you know that there were attempts made by JNA units
1 to pull out of their barracks in an unorganised manner?
2 A. Mr. Lukic, as far as I knew, the bulk of the activities at the
3 time had to do with logistical issues, so supplying them with food and
4 other materials necessary. There were no large-scale movements that
5 would call for an order of this type.
6 Q. In the introduction to this order, it is mentioned that the
7 property of the Bosnia and Herzegovina started to be plundered by the
8 former JNA members. Were you informed about any such activities by JNA
9 members in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
10 A. Mr. Lukic, we had no such information, and I believe that they
11 simply needed an excuse for war or for a conflict. They simply needed an
12 excuse for -- to start a conflict with the army.
13 Q. When you are saying "they," who are you referring to?
14 A. Territorial Defence, paramilitaries, and their leadership who was
15 informed about all of this, at least some members of the leadership of
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask this document to
18 be tendered into evidence, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
20 given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
22 Exhibit D263. Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Gajic, do you know whether there were any incidents in
1 Sarajevo and, if so, what really happened there after the 29th of April,
3 A. Sadly, I do know about this, Mr. Lukic. There was an attack
4 of -- by a paramilitary unit called Green Berets against the building of
5 the JNA in Sarajevo. On that occasion, the chief of the JNA home, who
6 was a Macedonian, was gravely injured. He later died of these injuries.
7 And several soldiers were also injured.
8 Q. When was this?
9 A. This was on the 2nd of May, 1992.
10 Q. And what happened afterwards?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, your question was what happened on the
12 29th of April.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I asked after the 29th of April.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: My apologies.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, once the JNA building
16 was attacked, the command decided to send a unit there to provide
17 assistance to the officers and soldiers who were there. However, they
18 were attacked by the paramilitaries, and again several persons were
19 injured. Quite a few of them, as far as I remember. Nobody was killed,
20 but there were many injured persons, and a lot of equipment was
21 destroyed. Then a unit was sent from the police [as interpreted], but
22 that one also did not manage to get to the JNA building because it was
23 also encountered by paramilitary members who destroyed some of the
24 equipment and again injured some of the soldiers. And on -- at that
25 point, the idea of any further action was given up on.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Were there any new attacks in the days to come, and what
4 A. In the following days, Mr. Lukic, the command of the
5 2nd Military Zone was attacked. So these are four buildings. And inside
6 these buildings there was a number of soldiers and civilians. That
7 attack was launched at about noon, and it lasted until 10.00 p.m. During
8 this attack, all the four buildings were badly damaged. The equipment
9 was plundered and members of the JNA were injured during the attack.
10 On the 2nd of May, we had the gravest incident --
11 Q. Just a second, please. Allow me not to forget this.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] At page 68, line 10, the witness
13 actually said "military police." It was a military police unit that was
14 sent to intervene.
15 Q. Please continue, sir. So what happened on the 2nd of May?
16 A. Mr. Lukic, on the 2nd of May, president of the Presidency of
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, came back from Lisbon
18 where he attended negotiations on a plan for Bosnia and Herzegovina. He
19 landed at Butmir Airport in Sarajevo, and nearby there was a command of
20 the 4th Corps of the JNA, and one part of the command of the
21 2nd Military Zone were also there with commander, Mr. Kukanjac.
22 The commander made an estimate of the situation.
23 General MacKenzie was also there, who was in charge of the international
24 peace forces in Sarajevo for Bosnia and Herzegovina. So they made an
25 estimate of the situation, and they said that if they would allow
1 Mr. Izetbegovic to go on his own or escorted by members of his MUP,
2 probably he would be killed and probably JNA would be blamed for that.
3 So they suggested to Mr. Izetbegovic to be escorted by members of the
4 military and with MacKenzie and several vehicles from his units. So
5 there was a column of some 30 vehicles with many officers, soldiers, and
6 a lot of military equipment.
7 Q. Whose vehicles were they?
8 A. Well, these were military vehicles in which there was
9 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic; commander of the 2nd Military Zone,
10 General Kukanjac; and also General MacKenzie, as commander of the
11 international forces that were present in Bosnia-Herzegovina. They went
12 towards the Presidency building of Bosnia-Herzegovina because they wanted
13 to escort Mr. Izetbegovic there safely.
14 In Dobrovoljacka Street in Sarajevo, which is a very narrow
15 street in Sarajevo which prevents any manoeuvre of the vehicles, that
16 convoy was stopped by paramilitary forces who made a massacre there. I'm
17 not sure how many people were killed, how many soldiers, and how many
18 were injured, both soldiers and officers. Vehicles were set on fire.
19 They were plundered, and as far as I remember, over 100 soldiers and
20 officers were detained.
21 As far as I remember, General MacKenzie and Colonel Koljevic
22 drove back to see what happened, but they were turned away. He later
23 told General Kukanjac that what he had seen there was a scene of utmost
24 horror, the likes of which he had never witnessed in his military career,
25 such acts of cruelty being perpetrated against soldiers, officers, NCOs,
1 and civilians.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I think we must try and supervise the
3 testimony as it goes out. You asked a very short, simple question,
4 "Whose vehicles were these?" We've heard a long answer, and that
5 question has not been answered. We really need to -- we -- your question
6 was very simple. "Whose vehicles were they," and we've got a quarter
7 page of answer which doesn't answer that question.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness was answering something
9 that I would have asked him at any rate later on.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: He mustn't anticipate your questions. He must
11 answer your questions.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. General, that was the reason I asked the question. Whose column
14 was it that you described?
15 A. The column of the 2nd military district. It was a military
17 Q. Yes, you've said that already. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of which army?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The JNA, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. So the JNA was protecting Izetbegovic
21 and MacKenzie?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have a
24 65 ter Defence document, 65 ter 01011D. [In English] 01011D.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we're waiting for this document, I just want
1 to get some clarity.
2 You said the JNA was protecting President Izetbegovic and
3 MacKenzie. Now, who were attacking this column that was protecting them?
4 You said that MacKenzie said he witnessed a massacre like he had never
5 seen before. Who perpetrated this massacre in that narrow street?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the massacre was
7 perpetrated by a paramilitary Muslim formation.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, is it the testimony that a Muslim
9 paramilitary formation which had been established by Izetbegovic's order
10 was attacking a column that was protecting Izetbegovic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. A while ago you said there were assessments to the effect that
15 someone might try to kill Izetbegovic after his return from Lisbon.
16 That's what you said. Whose assessments were those, and whose interests
17 would have been served that scenario?
18 A. Mr. Lukic, Alija Izetbegovic was an extremist. That much can be
19 said. Nevertheless, he was far more realistic than some other people who
20 were with him and were part of the leadership. The most extremist among
21 them being Ejup Ganic.
22 Based on such intelligence as we gathered at the time, as well as
23 evidence, in fact, in relation to the Dobrovoljacka Street massacre and
24 everything else that I've been talking about, Ejup Ganic is a person who
25 bears direct responsibility for that, if I may put it that way. He was
1 in charge of the entire operation.
2 I understand your question. When we talk about any danger to
3 Alija Izetbegovic's life or the possibility that he might be killed, the
4 people I had in mind were Ejup Ganic and his own extremist faction.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I need to understand, because you see at
6 page 72, starting from line 5, Mr. Gajic, you say:
7 "Mr. Lukic, Alija Izetbegovic was an extremist. That much can be
8 said. Nevertheless, he was far more realistic than some other people who
9 were with him and were part of the leadership. The most extremist among
10 them being Ejup Ganic."
11 Now, if Ejup Ganic was with him, what prevented him from killing
12 him if that's what he wanted to do? If you're saying he was the one
13 masterminding this attack. You see, I've got several questions here.
14 Here's a person who is with Izetbegovic, but he's at the same time
15 masterminding the attack that is attacking Izetbegovic, and he's part of
16 Izetbegovic's leadership. Can you unravel that for us, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the situation within
18 the Muslim leadership was quite complex and -- yes, complex. In the
19 formal sense, they were united in the sense of rallying around a goal
20 that they shared, an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina. Nevertheless,
21 each of them separately had their own goals and objectives in terms of
22 struggling to attain power for themselves.
23 Ejup Ganic was peculiar because he believed that this should be
24 achieved by the use of armed force. Alija Izetbegovic was, in a way,
25 more moderate in this sense. He was advocating talks and was in favour
1 of seeking a political solution. He was more realistic and more
2 moderate; Ejup Ganic and his own faction were not happy with that. There
3 were smouldering tensions between them that at times became more apparent
4 than at other times. Nevertheless, they, too, were perfectly aware of
5 the fact that there was a threat of open clashes breaking out between
6 them, even severe ones.
7 I do apologise, Your Honour. I have to add one thing. What I
8 said in relation to Ejup Ganic, it was subsequent inquiries and
9 investigations that showed up their relationship for what it was,
10 indicating also that Ejup Ganic was prepared to go as far as to
11 physically liquidate Alija Izetbegovic. And then the events eventually
12 took the course they did later on in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, but what I do not understand is
14 how he is actually with, physically with, Izetbegovic and part of his
15 leadership and at the same time masterminding an attack against him. And
16 added to that, that in fact this whole convoy is being given protection
17 by the JNA who are being attacked by the very paramilitary formed by --
18 military force from -- by the very people they are protecting. The order
19 by -- it just doesn't make -- and I understand that you say it's complex,
20 but it just doesn't sort of settle well in my mind how these things
21 happen, how enemies are in bed together and friends kill one another.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will do my best to
23 answer. I'm not sure if I was specific enough previously.
24 Ejup Ganic was not part of the same convoy as General MacKenzie.
25 That's one thing.
1 Secondly, if I may refer to history. We have often seen that
2 kind of principle at work, the closest of associates turning one
3 another's murderers, assassinating a head of state, for example, although
4 previously they might have worked together. This may perhaps be somewhat
5 difficult to understand, but it depicts faithfully the complex nature of
6 the situation that prevailed in Bosnia at the time.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Gajic.
8 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I won't be dwelling on this with
10 Mr. Gajic, not on this particular episode, and I do believe the document
11 speaks for itself.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the document that we have on our screens
13 right now, a report on the 4th Corps command, dated the 7th of May, 1992,
14 signed by Milutin Kukanjac?
15 A. Yes, I am.
16 Q. Very briefly, please, what is it about?
17 A. This is a report by commander of the 2nd Military District on
18 developments throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina. It also comments on the
19 way in which those developments politically affected the JNA. The JNA at
20 the time still being based throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 Q. Is there a description of the Dobrovoljacka Street massacre in
22 this report, or the incident there?
23 A. Yes, as well as all the other developments that I have been
24 referring to.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this document please be received,
1 Your Honours. I believe it is self-explanatory.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
3 please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
5 Exhibit D264. Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Defence 65 ter 00641D. Can that be
8 brought up, please. The heading reads, "A list of wounded JNA members,"
9 the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1992.
10 Q. I showed you this document during proofing, sir, didn't I?
11 General, let me ask you this: Do you actually know any of these persons
12 whose names we can see listed here, as briefly as possible?
13 A. Yes, indeed. I do know a number of the persons listed here.
14 Number 1, Enes Taso, colonel, an ethnic Muslim who was wounded during the
15 attack on Dobrovoljacka Street.
16 Number 3, Ratko Katalina, colonel, chief of security of the
17 2nd Military District. Severely wounded. Remaining handicapped for
18 life. He now lives in Belgrade, as does Enes Taso. Both retired with
19 the rank of colonel.
20 Number 5, Blagoje Bozinovski, lieutenant-colonel, a Macedonian by
21 ethnicity. A person I mentioned earlier on. He had been wounded at the
22 JNA hall, eventually succumbing to his injuries.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this document be received,
24 please, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is received. May it please be given
1 an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
3 Exhibit D265. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My last document in relation to our
6 present topic, Defence 65 ter 00653D.
7 Q. This is a list containing the names of 122 persons who the
8 document claims were captured on the 2nd and 3rd of May in Sarajevo. Any
9 familiar names, sir? Any details concerning their fate in Sarajevo on
10 the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1992?
11 A. Mr. Lukic, I am familiar with some of these names. Number 1,
12 Slavoljub Belosevic, colonel, chief of security. The republican staff of
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina's TO. He was captured and badly mistreated for
14 the subsequent ten days by a group of Green Berets. He was eventually
15 set free.
16 Number 7, Milan Suput, colonel. Commander of a military police
17 battalion, the very battalion that I spoke of, in fact. When they
18 offered relief to the JNA hall after it had been attacked, he was
19 captured and subsequently released.
20 Number 33, Franjo Patacko, a lieutenant-colonel, a Croat, who was
21 also captured and eventually released.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
25 please be given an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
2 Exhibit D266. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Do you perhaps know how many persons were killed on that
6 occasion, roughly speaking?
7 A. Mr. Lukic, I couldn't give you the exact figure. Nevertheless,
8 speaking of professional soldiers, between six and seven were killed.
9 Two or three civilians as well, women, I think. What we don't see on the
10 list is the number of dead, but there is one person who was killed whom I
11 wish to mention specially, Colonel Bosko Mihajlovic who was chief of
12 security in the republican staff of the TO in Zagreb, Croatia. Following
13 the withdrawal of the JNA, he was transferred to Sarajevo. The only
14 reason he was killed was because he told the Green Berets killing all the
15 people there, "Why on earth are you mistreating us, mistreating us? Just
16 let us go," whereupon they killed him.
17 Q. Was there a similar incident that occurred elsewhere after this
18 one, and what were the consequences of that other incident? Briefly if
19 you can, sir.
20 A. Can you be more specific?
21 Q. I will just mention Tuzla. Did anything like that happen there
22 as well, and what exactly?
23 A. Thanks for jogging my memory, Mr. Lukic. Yes, indeed, there was
24 something that happened.
25 In 1991, the first embryo of the People's Patriotic League was
1 created in Tuzla. One of the founding members was Vahid Karavelic. I
2 knew him personally, and he held the rank of captain at the time. He's
3 directly responsible for the killing of an officer as --
4 Q. Can you just tell me specifically about the Tuzla incident and
5 the attack on that column in Tuzla.
6 A. We're talking about an incident in which a column was attacked
7 heading out of Bosanska Buna barracks and on its way to Brcanska Malta.
8 About 200 soldiers and officers were killed.
9 Q. When was it approximately?
10 A. As far as I remember, this was also in 1992, possibly 1993.
11 Q. We will now move to an entirely different topic. Before this
12 Court we have heard testimonies to the effect that in May 1992, after the
13 constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was adopted, the law
14 on the new army, the Army of Yugoslavia, was also adopted. We also know
15 that the Republika Srpska was formed as a state, and so was the Republika
16 Srpska Krajina, and they had their respective armies.
17 What was the relationship, if any, of the security organs of
18 these three armies?
19 A. Mr. Lukic, these were three entirely separated security organs.
20 They were separated and independent.
21 Q. First of all, I would like to hear whether in your mind these
22 were three separate armies.
23 A. Yes, three entirely separate and independent armies.
24 Q. Do you know what was the foundation for the establishment of
25 these three armies? What was the legal framework on the basis of which
1 they were established?
2 A. Mr. Lukic, these armies were based pursuant to the constitution
3 and different pieces of legislation, Law on Defence and Law on the Army,
4 passed by the highest legislative bodies. So the assemblies, the
5 parliaments of these states, so to say.
6 Q. Now I will ask about the relationships between security bodies.
7 So what was your relationship, the relationship of the security
8 administration and you personally, with security organs of the
9 Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of Serbian Krajina?
10 A. Those relations were based on some ad hoc contacts and exchange
11 of information.
12 Q. Could you possibly explain what you've just said?
13 A. So we had no formal relations. We had no laws or other
14 regulations that would govern our relations, but, rather, those relations
15 were based on our personal assessment and on the needs for exchange of
16 information. We would come in contacts -- the representatives of our
17 security administration and security bodies of these two republics would
18 come into contact.
19 Q. A short while ago you explained security organs, security
20 administration, intelligence administration. Do you know how these
21 professional structures were set up in Republika Srpska or in the
22 Republic of Srpska Krajina? Did they also have two separate
23 administrations or did they have a different system?
24 A. Mr. Lukic, in the Serbian Army of Krajina, they had a security
25 department with a chief who was directly subordinated to the chief of
1 Main Staff of the Serbian Army of Krajina. In the Army of Republika
2 Srpska, they had a security intelligence sector, and the chief of that
3 sector was subordinated to the chief of Main Staff of the Army of
4 Republika Srpska.
5 Q. This intelligence security sector, did it encompass both security
6 organs and intelligence organs or was it just its name?
7 A. That's correct, Mr. Lukic. The chief of intelligence security
8 sector was superior of the chief of intelligence department and the chief
9 of security department of the Army of Republika Srpska.
10 Q. Do you know who was the chief of the security department of the
11 Serbian Army of Krajina, first of all, and did you know that person
13 A. Mr. Lukic, there were several chiefs of security department,
14 Colonel Dusan Smiljanic, also Colonel Vuk Dimitrovic, and Colonel Rade
15 Raseta. I knew all these three officers in person since they used to be
16 members of the JNA.
17 Q. Were they previously involved with the security tasks in the JNA?
18 Is that how you knew them?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in the Army of Republika Srpska, do you know who was the head
21 of the intelligence security sector and who was in charge of the security
23 A. Mr. Lukic, the head of the intelligence -- or, rather, chief of
24 intelligence security sector was colonel and later General
25 Zdravko Tolimir, and Mr. Ljubisa Beara was chief of the military
1 security, and the chief of military intelligence --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's apology. We did not catch
3 the last name.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter did not catch the last name.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
6 Colonel Petar Salapura.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Gajic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. I asked whether you knew these persons.
10 A. Mr. Lukic, I knew them. Colonel Tolimir and later
11 General Tolimir, Zdravko, and Captain Ljubisa Beara were in the security
12 organs of the former JNA, and Colonel Salapura was in the intelligence
13 organs of the former JNA.
14 Q. Mr. Gajic, I asked you at the beginning where were you born, and
15 you told us that you were born in Croatia. Now I would like to ask you
16 whether anybody ever requested that you join the Serbian Army of Krajina.
17 So during the period after that army was formed whilst you were in the
18 security administration.
19 A. Mr. Lukic, to answer the first part of your question, I need to
20 say no; and concerning the second part of your question, I can say that I
21 requested myself on two occasions to join the Serbian Army of Krajina.
22 Q. What do you mean? Did you simply want to visit them, or did you
23 want to become a member of the Serbian Army of Krajina?
24 A. My aim was to become a member of the Serbian Army of Krajina.
25 Q. And what happened? Why didn't you?
1 A. Mr. Lukic, the first time I requested it, it was in 1993, when I
2 was chief of security in the 1st Army, and the then commander of the
3 army, General Stojanovic, did not allow me to go. He told me that I was
4 needed there as chief of security of the 1st Army.
5 The second time I requested to go to the Serbian Army of Krajina
6 and become its member was in early April of 1994, when I was transferred
7 back to the security administration. The then chief of the security
8 administration, General Dimitrijevic, also told me that I couldn't go
9 because they needed me there, and he told me that he already agreed on
10 this with Chief of the General Staff, General Perisic, who also believed
11 that I should have stayed at the security administration.
12 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, on -- on the question
13 when we were -- you were asked, in particular, whether you had applied to
14 join the Serbian Army in Krajina, you said that you asked on two
15 occasions and on two occasions that was refused.
16 So my question is the following: Why did you not resign from the
17 Yugoslav Army to -- to join the Serbian army in Krajina, in Croatia? I
18 mean, it seemed to me that that would have been the simplest thing to do
19 if you wanted to serve in the Serbian Army of Krajina.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was needed in the
21 Army of Yugoslavia, so I thought it would be a dishonourable thing to do
22 to turn my back to the Army of Yugoslavia, which needed me. Somebody
23 estimated that they needed me there at the time.
24 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you for that answer.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Your Honour.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. General, do you know whether in the security administration or
3 within the General Staff, were there any other people who were born in
4 Croatia or Bosnia and who also did not go and join other armies? Did you
5 know of any such persons?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Do you know if any of them suffered any consequences because they
8 didn't leave and join these other armies, any consequences in terms of
9 their promotions, their careers?
10 A. Mr. Lukic, nobody suffered any consequences.
11 Q. Can you name any of your colleagues who was there and who shared
12 similar roots as you did and who stayed within the Army of Yugoslavia?
13 A. Well, I can mention two or three names now. First of all,
14 Colonel Novakovic, Marko, or -- who was born in Bosnia and Herzegovina,
15 who was in the security organs at the Ministry of Defence. Also,
16 Colonel Svilar who was in the Counter-Intelligence Technical Centre that
17 I mentioned earlier.
18 Q. Could you just repeat that name?
19 A. Colonel Svilar.
20 Q. What happened to that Colonel Svilar? What was his origin?
21 A. As far as I know, Colonel Svilar was born in the Republic of
22 Srpska Krajina. He held -- had some health problems, and everybody
23 originating from the Republic of Srpska Krajina was interviewed, and they
24 were all asked whether they wanted to join these armies so that they
25 could be dispatched there. And such an interview was also held with
1 Colonel Svilar, and he said that he had some serious health-related
2 issues and that he also couldn't do it because of his family. So as far
3 as I know, he remained at the same position and he retired from that
4 position eventually.
5 Q. Did he suffer from any consequences because he didn't agree to
6 being dispatched? Did he retire regularly or not?
7 A. Mr. Lukic, I retired on 31st of December, 2001. As far as I
8 know, Colonel Svilar retired one year after me, and this was his regular
9 time for retirement.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe we are right on time to
12 finish for today, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 The case is going to stand postponed to tomorrow in the afternoon
15 at quarter past 2.00 in Courtroom II. You are warned, sir, while you are
16 still in the witness stand you may not discuss the case with anybody, not
17 even with your lawyers. Thank you so much. Back here at quarter past
18 2.00, tomorrow afternoon.
19 Court adjourned.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day
23 of March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.