1 Thursday, 11 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
8 Could you please call the case, Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
10 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
11 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
13 the day starting with the Prosecution, please.
14 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dan Saxon,
15 Bronagh McKenna, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much Mr. Saxon.
17 Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
19 afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom. Mr. Perisic will be
20 defended today by Mr. Novak Lukic and Mr. Boris Zorko.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.
22 WITNESS: BRANKO GAJIC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Mr. Gajic. Just to remind you
25 that you're still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of
1 your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
4 understand that.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 Mr. Lukic.
7 Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, good afternoon once again.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. We shall continue where we stopped yesterday. You might remember
11 that at the end of the day of yesterday we spoke about some of your
12 colleagues who originated from the territories where the war was waged.
13 You mentioned some names. You mentioned your colleague from the security
14 administration, Mr. Svilar. You told us when he retired. Do you know
15 whether since -- whether between 2003 and the day of his retirement he
16 was promoted?
17 A. Mr. Lukic, yes, he was, from the rank of lieutenant-colonel to
18 the rank of colonel.
19 Q. I will continue with this subject. So the relationships between
20 the three armies, and could we please focus on the security-related
21 issues, because this is exactly why you are here as a witness.
22 Yesterday, you told us -- this is on page 79 of our working
23 transcript. I asked you about the contacts, and you told us that these
24 were ad hoc contacts. Do you remember that?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. As the institution, the security administration, did you request
2 from the security organs of the Army of Krajina and security organs of
3 the Army of Republika Srpska to send any reports to you?
4 A. Mr. Lukic, we didn't.
5 Q. Did you request from them to provide specific information on some
6 specific events or incidents to provide some specific facts?
7 A. Mr. Lukic, they were entirely independent in making any decisions
8 as to what they would report to us in our security administration.
9 Q. Still, you didn't answer my question. Do you remember whether on
10 any occasion you requested from them to provide any specific information?
11 A. As far as I can remember, no.
12 Q. Do you remember whether you requested from the security organs of
13 the Serbian Army of Krajina and the security organs of the Army of
14 Republika Srpska to come to any meetings at the security administration?
15 A. Mr. Lukic, no.
16 Q. I have yet another question which is related to the general tasks
17 and responsibilities of the security administration that we discussed
18 yesterday, but we did not raise this issue yesterday.
19 Was the security administration tactically responsible for
20 certain materials, equipment of the Army of Yugoslavia? Was there any
21 specific document regulating that responsibility?
22 A. Mr. Lukic, the security administration was tactically responsible
23 for equipping units of military police with special equipment, and it was
24 also tactically responsible for equipping security organs with material
25 and technical equipment, as we called it.
1 Q. Could you give us any example for the sake of Their Honours, so
2 possibly if you could illustrate what kind of equipment we are talking
3 about that the security administration was responsible for.
4 A. Mr. Lukic, if we are talking about the equipment of the military
5 police, we can talk about protective vests, for example, some special
6 weapons. So automatic weapons also.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just interrupt.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Handcuffs as well.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see the interpreter is struggling to keep pace.
10 Can you just slow down a little bit, both of you, and give each other
11 some time after speaking to allow the interpreter to interpret. Thank
13 Carry on, Mr. Gajic. What else?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 So this was related to the equipment of the military police. If
16 we are talking about the equipment for the security organs, then these
17 were different devices for intercepting telephone conversations or
18 surveillance, also devices for searching apartments and so on.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask. At page 3 -- I beg your
20 pardon. Yes. At page 4, line 3, you also mentioned automatic weapons.
21 What kind of automatic weapons are these? What are these weapons?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are talking about
23 handguns, pistols, or rifles which had snipers or silencers, and they
24 were used for any -- any conflicts with terrorists.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Gajic, do you know whether the security administration as a
4 body that was technically responsible sent any -- or received, rather,
5 any requests from these two armies for the equipment, the weapons of the
6 kind that you just described, and whether the security administration
7 responded to such requests?
8 A. Mr. Lukic, as far as I remember, there was only one request which
9 came from the Serbian Army of Krajina for a certain quantity of such
10 special equipment, and they provided a list of desired equipment. It
11 came to us through the General Staff, and we were asked to respond. As
12 far as I remember, there was also a note of the Chief of the
13 General Staff who said, if we can, to provide some of this equipment but
14 without endangering the situation of our military police, and we answered
15 that we did not have any equipment that we could provide them with
16 because we did not even have sufficient equipment for our own units. We
17 only had some smoke boxes that we could provide to them.
18 Q. Who was responsible in the security administration to respond on
19 behalf of the security administration as to whether you can provide them
20 with the desired equipment or not?
21 A. This was the chief of the security administration, and when we
22 are talking about the military police units, he responded following a
23 proposal that he received from the chief of the military police
25 Q. Yesterday when I asked about the names in the security bodies of
1 these two armies, you mentioned some of the names. So now I have a few
2 questions related to the security officers from the Army of Republika
3 Srpska. You mentioned three names, Tolimir, Salapura, and Beara. Do you
4 remember saying that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. During the war did you see any of those three individuals and
8 A. Mr. Lukic, I saw all of them occasionally when they came to
9 Belgrade. They would visit their families, because the families of all
10 three of them lived in Belgrade. So on those occasions they would also
11 come to the security administration.
12 Q. So to make it more precise, you saw them on the premises of the
13 security administration.
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. When they came to the security administration, were their visits
16 pre-arranged? Were they announced? Did you know they would come?
17 A. Mr. Lukic, in case of General Tolimir, as a rule he never
18 announced his visit. Captain Beara occasionally announced that he would
19 come, and Colonel Salapura, given that he was chief of the military
20 intelligence administration, as far as I remember, he only came once to
21 my office.
22 Q. You know which period we are interested in, so after you came
23 back to the security administration in 1994. So when you say
24 "occasionally," what do you mean more specifically? Was it once in a
25 month, once in a week, or three times a week? So in the period between
1 1994 and the end of December 1995 when the war ended.
2 A. Mr. Lukic, when I said "occasionally," this means that they would
3 come once every three to five months.
4 Q. When they came to you, for example, Mr. Beara, did you ask any
5 information from him? Did you request any information in writing or oral
6 reports? So what was that discussion all about that you had with him?
7 A. Mr. Lukic, when Mr. Beara, who was chief of the security
8 administration of the Army of Republika Srpska, when he came, he would
9 provide us with an oral description or his estimate of the security
10 situation in Republika Srpska, and he would generally speak about combat
11 operations, and what we were particularly interested in were any
12 implications that this could have for the security of the Federal
13 Republic of Yugoslavia and our army, because this was our fundamental
14 task as I explained yesterday.
15 Q. Could you give us an example? So in the entire territory where
16 the war was waged, what was it that you were interested in? What was it
17 that could have had any implications for the Army of Yugoslavia?
18 A. Mr. Lukic, these were combat operations that took place closer to
19 our border. So it was possible for certain armed groups to cross the
20 border whether illegally or in any other way and thus come to the
21 territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Furthermore, we were
22 interested in learning about paramilitary units that were present in that
23 territory because these also involved citizens of the Federal Republic of
24 Yugoslavia, and this is what we were interested in, to learn about them
25 if they had such information, because such citizens were armed, and
1 therefore they also represented a threat for the Federal Republic of
2 Yugoslavia. And obviously we were also interested in smuggling,
3 particularly smuggling of arms and military equipment.
4 Just -- let me just provide you with one example. At that time,
5 a single bullet for a Kalashnikov rifle was worth $3.00 on the black
6 market, and obviously tens of millions of such bullets of different
7 calibres were smuggled.
8 Q. Did the security administration of the Army of Yugoslavia have
9 any of its people, so to say, or their informers in the Army of Republika
10 Srpska and the Army of Serbian Krajina? So regardless of the official
11 security organs.
12 A. Mr. Lukic, no, we did not, because we thought that the
13 information we received from the official organs were sufficient for us.
14 And we also had some operational sources of our own which we inherited
15 from the former JNA, and they were situated in the territory of Croatia
16 or Bosnia and Herzegovina.
17 Q. Did the security administration have the right to set up its own
18 operation centres or forward the posts in third countries, outposts in
19 third countries?
20 A. It wasn't the security administration; it was the military
21 intelligence administration of the General Staff of the VJ that had the
22 right to do that.
23 Q. Can you please explain for the benefit of the Chamber what the
24 powers are of the intelligence administration in relation to third
1 A. Mr. Lukic, the intelligence administration can set up outposts in
2 third countries abroad based on assessments or perceived needs. It can
3 set up one or more intelligence centres. Such an intelligence centre
4 would normally have several people working there with a back-up unit.
5 There would be chiefs there and a number of operatives and logisticians.
6 This is not a public installation. Rather, it is a covert one. They use
7 operative communication lines, agents, and intelligence technology in
8 order to gather such intelligence as I explained yesterday.
9 Q. What about the army of whichever country the intelligence centre
10 happens to be based in, are they normally aware of any exchange of
11 information going on in that way?
12 A. No. Normally that is not the case. These are normally covert
13 operations, and the country normally doesn't know. The building itself
14 may be camouflaged or disguised in some way. It may, for example, bear
15 the name of a -- of a nonexistent company, whereas in fact it is an
16 intelligence centre.
17 Q. We know that you were educated in Germany as well. Setting up of
18 intelligence centres such as this, is that something that is an
19 established practice in other armies across the world?
20 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic, that is definitely the case.
21 Q. What does it mean to process a person in operative sense? What
22 is the operative processing of a person?
23 A. Mr. Lukic, operative processing is normally undertaken in
24 relation to persons already suspected of engaging in some sort of
25 activity, but it must be a well-founded suspicion, not just any kind of
1 suspicion. A well-founded suspicion means normally that there is already
2 evidence available showing that this person is involved in some sort of
3 illegal activity. It then becomes necessary to take certain peculiar
4 steps and deploy peculiar technical means with the objective of proving
5 that this person is indeed involved in some form of illegal activity, and
6 then one must apply this operative processing at the proposal of the
7 chief of security of the General Staff of the VJ and the decision is
8 approved by the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ.
9 Q. When you say "unlawful activity" or "unauthorised activity," what
10 sort of activity would you as the security administration be interested
11 in or be looking into? We did speak about that yesterday, but could you
12 just run it past us again, please.
13 A. Mr. Lukic, let me give you specific example. You have one or
14 more persons secretly organising themselves in order to carry out a
15 terrorist attack against a military facility or a member of the VJ, or,
16 for example, a group of persons are secretly organising themselves in
17 order to conduct espionage in order to obtain some secret documents such
18 as state secrets concerning the use and deployment of the VJ, cases such
19 as these.
20 Q. General Gajic, do you know that security bodies or of the
21 security administration at any point in time ever asked anyone from the
22 VRS or the SVK to process any particular person in this way or to make a
23 person the subject of their investigations?
24 A. No, Mr. Lukic. No such thing can be done without prior approval
25 from the chief of security of the security administration.
1 Q. Lines 18 --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: It appears that the witness has not answered the
4 question of Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's fine. I will repeat that, the
6 correction, though. Just to be perfectly specific, page 10, line 18,
7 there is a blank there. I said the VRS.
8 Q. General, it's perfectly simple. Please answer my question, yes
9 or no. Do you know if at any point in time anyone from the VJ asked
10 anyone from the VRS or the SVK to subject a person to this sort of
11 operative processing?
12 A. No, Mr. Lukic, no one ever did.
13 Q. Were you aware that anyone from the VRS or the SVK ever subjected
14 a person to this kind of operative processing who belonged to the VJ?
15 Did anyone ever approach you for approval of about anything like that?
16 A. No, Mr. Lukic, not as far as I know.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I'm not quite sure, because I don't
18 understand B/C/S, and this is happening a second time. The questioning
19 in English at page 11, line 9, says: "Were you aware that ..."
20 Also, at page 10, line 16: "Do you know that ..."
21 I don't know what the question was, but a reading of the sentence
22 where you said, "Do you know that," the impression given to the reader is
23 that you, the questioner, know that that happened, but you just want to
24 know whether the witness knew if it did happen, and I don't want to
25 suggest how the question should be asked, but -- I just want to
1 understand that that's the question --
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, Your Honour. I
3 understand your point. I understand fully. I fully understand what --
4 the question was interpreted properly, but it might give rise to some
6 Q. Both questions that I asked you, sir, the first question was
7 this: Were you personally aware of any instance at any point in time
8 where anyone at all from the VRS or the SVK subjected a person from the
9 VJ to operative processing?
10 A. Mr. Lukic, no, I'm not aware of that.
11 Q. Do you know if the VJ at any point required such --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Lukic please
13 repeat that question. Thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please repeat your question, Mr. Lukic. The
15 interpreters didn't hear you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Sir, are you aware, General Gajic, whether anyone from the VJ at
18 any point in time requested the security officers of the VRS or the SVK
19 to conduct any operative processing like that?
20 A. No, Mr. Lukic, I'm not aware of that.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, does that make it more
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Sir, you mentioned yesterday who the officers were of that body
3 in the SVK, and you mentioned Rade Raseta. Did you at any time during
4 the war actually see Mr. Raseta? Under what conditions, circumstances,
5 and when?
6 A. No. At the time when I was transferred from the 1st army back to
7 the security administration which was in early April 1994 and then all
8 the way up until the end of the war, as far as I remember, I never saw
9 Colonel Raseta.
10 Q. Did you perhaps hear whether he came to the security
11 administration in order to meet anyone there? What might have been the
12 reasons? Do you have any information about that?
13 A. Mr. Lukic, I do know that Colonel Raseta came to the security
14 administration. I can't tell you exactly how many times, whether twice,
15 perhaps three times. He would normally see the chief of the security
16 administration, and General Dimitrijevic was the person who introduced me
17 to him.
18 Q. General Dimitrijevic introduced you to him. But was he there
19 because General Dimitrijevic invited him, or was there perhaps a
20 different reason?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
22 MR. SAXON: Well, the way the question is posed, it seems to call
23 for speculation. The proper question, seems to me, was whether this
24 witness knows why Mr. Raseta was there.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I asked a very specific question.
1 Was he there because he was invited or not? I think that's probably the
2 first thing that needs clarifying, and that's what I'm trying to do. Was
3 it just an ad hoc thing, or was it actually at someone's request?
4 And then my next question was going to be, does the witness know
5 what the reason was? I don't think that is -- I mean, speculation in any
6 shape or form.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled. However, I want to say to
8 you if he answers "no" to your question as it stands, I don't know why
9 you would have to ask him the reason, because then he wouldn't -- but
10 anyway, carry on.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Very briefly, General Gajic, you knew that Raseta was there to
13 see him. Did General Dimitrijevic ever tell you whether there was a
14 reason for him coming, or an invitation or anything else?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: One question at a time, Mr. Lukic. One question
16 at a time, not any reason or an invitation or anything else.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Did General Dimitrijevic tell you how Raseta came to be there?
19 A. No, Mr. Lukic, he never explained anything.
20 Q. Did General Dimitrijevic tell you whether he had requested any
21 sort of report from Raseta? What were the facts they discussed,
22 generally speaking?
23 A. Mr. Lukic, as for your first question, the answer is no. As for
24 your second question, General Dimitrijevic informed me they talked about
25 all the same subjects and in much the same way as previously with the
1 security organs from the VRS, except this was now in relation to the
2 Serbian Republic of Krajina.
3 Q. OTP Exhibit P1926, please.
4 [In English] This is P Exhibit 1926.
5 [Interpretation] You mentioned Colonel Smiljanic as well, did you
6 not, as being with the security of the SVK? I showed you this document
7 during proofing. Can we please go straight to page 2 of this document.
8 Could you please tell me what this is. What sort of a document
9 is this?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we zoom into these documents, please.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, this is called
12 information. It's a kind of document envisaged in an internal rule
13 governing the work of the security organs. It's called "Instructions on
14 documentation and records." So the purpose of a document like this is
15 simply to inform.
16 Q. Look at the date, the 1st of July, 1994. It was delivered to the
17 security administration of the General Staff of the VJ and also to the
18 security organ of the Main Staff of the SVK.
19 Sir, do you remember seeing documents of this kind or indeed
20 receiving documents of this kind during the war?
21 A. Mr. Lukic, as far as I remember, there may have been several
22 documents like this from the SVK. As for the VRS, we received none at
23 all or none that I can remember.
24 Q. You've read this document. Let's not dwell on it, at least not
25 in its entirety. If you believe it necessary, by all means go through
1 the entire document, but tell me this: If you look at this document, do
2 you find anything of potential relevance to you as a security officer of
3 the VJ?
4 A. Mr. Lukic, the document in its entirety relates to the situation
5 in the autonomous province of Western Bosnia. The 5th Muslim Corps was
6 deployed there and actually conducting combat operations. This is the
7 border to the Republic of Serbian Krajina. This document discusses
8 problems that occurred during the combat operations in which they engaged
9 the 5th Muslim Corps. Some of the VRS forces were involved in that, and
10 all of this happened in the autonomous province of Western Bosnia. This
11 document addresses that issue specific and also says that as far as the
12 leadership was concerned of the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia,
13 the leader at the time being Fikret Abdic, there were divisions within
14 the leadership. Some favour the continuation of fighting against the
15 5th Muslim Corps. There were others who favoured a cessation to these
16 hostilities and proposed that a part of the army [as interpreted] get
17 directly involved in fighting the 5th Muslim Corps.
18 Q. Is any of the information included in this document of any
19 relevance to the security organs of the VJ?
20 A. Mr. Lukic, it was relevant since it potentially had a direct
21 bearing on the Republic of Serbian Krajina, especially the Knin area.
22 This was important terms of our assessments both in the level of the
23 General Staff and also because we had other information indicating that
24 Croatia was readying for offensive operations in co-operation with the
25 Muslim forces in this very area.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On page 16, line 6, the witness said
2 Serbian Army of Krajina and not just part of the army.
3 All right. If we could now see another of the Prosecution's
4 evidence or exhibits. This is P2334.
5 Q. This is a document of the General -- or, rather, Main Staff of
6 the Serbian Army of Krajina, of the security department, of the 2nd of
7 May, 1995, and it is sent to the security administration of the
8 General Staff, signed by Colonel Raseta, who was in charge of the
10 Did you see this document before, General?
11 A. Mr. Lukic, yes, I did.
12 Q. Do you remember this report from the times when it was written,
13 or do you only remember it from the time when I showed it to you? So can
14 you remember whether you knew about this document earlier on?
15 A. Mr. Lukic, to be quite honest, I recall when you showed me this
16 document, but I did recognise its contents.
17 Q. Just to make things clear, the contents of this document are
18 related to the time of the Operation Flash, the attack against the
19 Serbian Republic of Krajina. Could we please turn to page 3.
20 The document is rather self-evident --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we're turning to page 3, Mr. Gajic, can you
22 remember when you first saw this document ever?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this document for the first
24 time when it arrived to my administration, as far as I can recall.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Here on page 3, which we can see now on the screen, we can see
4 the stamp proving the reception. Is this the date when the document
5 arrived to your administration, the 2nd of May?
6 A. Mr. Lukic, yes.
7 Q. So the very day it was written it was also logged in your
8 administration. In this document there is mention of rocket attacks
9 against Zagreb, the situation in Western Slavonia, and I am interested in
10 what is written on page 3. Here we can see that discussions are
11 mentioned among the leaders of the Republic of Srpska Krajina. Was this
12 information in any way relevant for the security of the Army of
14 A. Mr. Lukic, this information was not only relevant for the Army of
15 Yugoslavia, as you said, and its security, in my mind it was very
16 relevant for the leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and
17 their estimates and their decisions, because on this page 3 that you have
18 now -- now shown me, the contents of what is written here have to do with
19 the meeting of the Supreme Defence Council of the Republic of Serbian
20 Krajina, and we can see that there was very clear division between the
21 leaders. In one group we had the president, Milan Martic, and chief of
22 Main Staff of the Army of Serbian Krajina, General Celeketic, and some
23 others, and they were in favour of the continuation of the war. And
24 there was another fraction which was in favour of negotiations and a
25 peaceful solution.
1 Why am I saying that this was very relevant not only for the army
2 but also for the leadership of the state? Because at that time the
3 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, our military and political leadership,
4 were fully in favour of peace initiatives and the plan of the
5 Contact Group as well as some other plans which aimed at resolving the
6 problems between Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Croatia in peaceful
7 way. So this was something that actually was a kind of provocation for
8 those efforts.
9 Q. Thank you. Could we please now look at another document, P2336.
11 Now, this document was again signed by Colonel Raseta on the 26th
12 of May, 1995, and it was sent to the commander of the Serbian Army of
13 Krajina. I think it's self-evident, so I will not ask much about this
14 report, but my question is, did you receive in the security
15 administration the reports of this kind compiled by Colonel Raseta?
16 A. Mr. Lukic, no, because it is clearly stated here who was the
17 addressee of this report, and it is specified very clearly.
18 Q. Thank you. The next document I would like to show is yet another
19 OTP exhibit, P1018. We will see yet another report by Colonel Raseta,
20 dated 3rd of August, 1995, and addressed to the security administration
21 of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, or specifically to
22 General Dimitrijevic personally.
23 You can see it on the screen, but I can see that you've found it
24 in your folder as well.
25 General, this document, did you see it before? If so, when? Do
1 you remember this report?
2 A. Mr. Lukic, to be quite honest, when you showed me this document,
3 then I recalled it. Obviously one can't remember all the details, but
4 when I saw the contents, I recalled that report.
5 Q. Given the date, which period does this report refer to? So which
6 events does it refer to?
7 A. Mr. Lukic, the date is August the 3rd, 1995. So this was two
8 days before the Croatian Operation Storm against the Knin area.
9 Q. If we could now move to page 4. So this is the last page both in
10 the English and B/C/S. I apologise. We seem to need the previous page
11 in English.
12 What is written here under item 3? It says: "The situation on
13 the territory." Without reading this out, I would like to know if what
14 is written here was in any way relevant for the security of the Federal
15 Republic of Yugoslavia.
16 A. Mr. Lukic, my answer is yes, and I can also tell you why. In the
17 second paragraph of item 3, we can see that the president of the
18 government of the Republic of Srpska Krajina, Milan Babic, invited
19 ministers to flee from Knin, so to abandon the people and abandon the
20 army, to leave them there. And in the previous paragraph we can see that
21 among the population in the Republic of Serbian Krajina there was panic,
22 possibly also caused by the Operation Flash which took place in May, and
23 that the population was accusing the leadership of the Republic of
24 Serbian Krajina for bringing about such a difficult situation. And
25 obviously this was very significant, not only for the military
1 leadership, but also for the political leadership. This information was
2 needed for any decisions they might make, consider -- considering any
3 peace plans.
4 Q. After the Operation Storm, were there any consequences that were
5 relevant for the security of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
6 A. Mr. Lukic, there were numerous consequences. First of all, a
7 large number of refugees, as far as I remember, more than 200.000 people
8 came to the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and this was
9 a large humanitarian but also security problem. Furthermore, a large
10 number of members of the Serbian Army of Krajina and members of their
11 families were in very dire situation.
12 As regards our intelligence activities, we also felt more
13 offensive, more specific activity coming from the direction of Croatia,
14 because after that operation Tudjman was announcing another operation
15 against Eastern Slavonia, which was the zone of responsibility of the
16 11th Corps.
17 Q. I think this was a very good example now that you mentioned
18 intelligence activities. Why did you describe this as intelligence
19 activities rather than security activities when you mentioned Croatia?
20 A. Because the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was a foreign country
21 and an enemy, and obviously it was the intelligence officers that were
22 most involved, but also the counter-intelligence service could collect
23 certain data, but this was not the bulk of their activities.
24 Q. Both these reports by Colonel Raseta, one was related to the
25 Operation Flash, that one of the 2nd of May, and the other one of the 3rd
1 of August was related to the imminent Operation Storm, did you know given
2 the exceptional circumstances at the time whether your security
3 administration requested any reports from Colonel Raseta, or were these
4 reports sent at his own initiative? Do you know?
5 A. Mr. Lukic, as far as I know, we did not request any such reports,
6 but it was the estimate of Colonel Raseta to send them, and I can only
7 applaud his estimates.
8 Q. Thank you. Could we please have a look at yet another OTP's
9 exhibit. This was P1084. With this we will move to some issues related
10 to another army. I don't believe that this is a correct document, so --
11 P1084. I apologise. This may have been my mistake.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I gave you a wrong
13 number, and also we need to move into closed session for the next
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document --
17 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 And what is the document?
21 MR. LUKIC: P1854.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. This may have been marked wrongly, General, in your binder. This
25 is a document of the security administration sent to the sector for
1 security issues of the Main Staff of the VRS, signed by Captain Beara --
2 or, rather, it was the document coming from the Main Staff's security
3 department and sent to the security administration of the General Staff.
4 Do you remember this document from previous times?
5 A. Mr. Lukic, I do.
6 Q. When you say you remember it, do you remember it from those days?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. On the second page we can see the stamp proving the reception of
9 the document. I don't believe that the date is legible, but do you
10 remember that you saw this document at approximately the time when it was
11 written in 1995?
12 A. Mr. Lukic, yes.
13 Q. Can you tell me, what do you know concerning the contents of this
15 A. Mr. Lukic, I remember this document because it was created in
16 some very specific circumstances. It is dated 11th of August, 1995. And
17 on the 5th of August the Croatian Army's Operation Storm was launched
18 against the Knin area of Krajina. What preceded it was the
19 Operation Flash in May of 1995.
20 These two operations resulted in a huge number of refugees,
21 several hundreds of thousands of refugees. And in this document we can
22 read about a very specific situation. Actually, it is telling us that we
23 can expect a large number of refugees also from the territory of
24 Republika Srpska -- or, actually, from the territory of the municipality
25 of Drvar. And this operation was led by the legitimate War Presidency
1 which invited the population to abandon the territory of the municipality
2 of Drvar and some other municipalities which would obviously cause yet
3 another security problem and humanitarian problem for the Federal
4 Republic of Yugoslavia, and it could also have very negative consequences
5 for the Army of Republika Srpska. Obviously, once the population leaves
6 the territory, it is well known that the army will follow, and this is
7 why I can remember the contents of this document. I believe this was a
8 very significant document both for the army and for the political
9 leadership of our country.
10 Q. From the time you first came to work with the security
11 administration in 1994 and all the way up until the end of 1995, do you
12 remember how many reports like this from Mr. Beara did you receive in
13 this shape or format?
14 A. Mr. Lukic, we did not receive any of these in writing. I can't
15 remember if there was perhaps the occasional report or not. But during
16 those contacts and the visits by Beara, one of his subordinates, we would
17 hear oral reports like this, stories like this one, corroborating what
18 this document says.
19 Q. Did the security administration have any information about any
20 information leaks from the VJ, information being leaked to any other
22 A. Mr. Lukic, the answer is yes.
23 Q. Can we please have Defence 65 ter document 00886D.
24 [In English] 00886D.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you still want to stay in private session?
1 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. This is a document by the corps commander of the special units of
9 the VJ, Colonel Miodrag Panic. The date is September 1995. Can you tell
10 us what this document talks about, General?
11 A. Mr. Lukic, this document was produced pursuant to an order from
12 the Chief of the General Staff, dated the 25th of August, 1995. This is
13 in relation to some leaks of classified military information concerning
14 equipment, both equipment used for combat and noncombat equipment,
15 available to the VJ. This was leaked to unauthorised officials from the
16 Republic of Serbian Krajina and the RS. The actual information was
17 leaked by sources within the VJ. This is a warning by the Chief of the
18 General Staff, and then the corps commander of the special units conveyed
19 this to his subordinates. This is a warning and a ban, meaning this
20 would no longer be tolerated.
21 Q. The first paragraph is quite specific about the fact that
22 information leaks such as this were quite typical in terms of the
23 equipment in the possession of the VJ and its material war reserves. Why
24 was it important to keep this kind of information from the VRS or the
1 A. Mr. Lukic, there are two reasons why this would have been
2 important. The first reason being this information might eventually have
3 reached foreign intelligence agencies, and then these agencies would have
4 known whatever they needed to know about the combat capability of the VJ
5 and its equipment and material resources.
6 Secondly, to be quite honest, there were constant complaints from
7 the SVK and the VRS to the tune of, You have the equipment, you have the
8 means, and yet you're not giving us a hand. Therefore, rumours were
9 being spread that were simply untrue and quite biased, despite which all
10 these roomers had certain consequences that we had to deal with.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this document be received,
12 Your Honours, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
14 please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
16 Exhibit D267. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. General, did the security administration have any contacts with
20 any representatives of foreign armies in the FRY? What sort of contacts?
21 Do you have any personal knowledge of anything like that?
22 A. Mr. Lukic, a security administration had contacts with a number
23 of military diplomatic representatives of foreign countries accredited in
24 Belgrade. Most of those representatives were from countries of the West,
25 Western countries. Normally they would request these meetings or
1 contacts. There were also briefings organised by our administration for
2 liaising with foreign representatives.
3 Q. Can you tell me specifically, if you remember, who was there, who
4 you met. Did you personally meet anyone?
5 A. Mr. Lukic, I personally did not meet anyone, not up until 1997,
6 which was when we had some contacts with people from the American
7 agencies. Normally it was the chief of the security administration,
8 General Dimitrijevic, who did have contacts.
9 Q. Did he pass information along to you, who he met and what they
10 talked about? I want know about up until the end of the war, the end of
12 A. Mr. Lukic, I was up to date on everything. General Dimitrijevic
13 would tell me who he was on his way to meet. Sometimes he wanted
14 documents prepared for him which he could then discuss with these men,
15 the representatives, and every time he was back from those meetings -- or
16 before he -- he would ever about, he would invariably inform the Chief of
17 the General Staff, he would confer with him, and often he went to see the
18 Chief of the General Staff to discuss this with him and pick topics
19 potentially to be discussed with these representatives.
20 Every time he came back, General Dimitrijevic would go to the
21 Chief of the General Staff to convey to him whatever was discussed at
22 those meetings.
23 In a very general way I, too, was informed about the subject
24 matter discussed at those meetings.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think there's an error on page 26,
1 line 20. He said sometimes he wanted information, and the reference here
2 is to document.
3 Q. General, just to make sure. I'm not sure I understood myself.
4 Did General Dimitrijevic ask for documents to be prepared for him or just
5 for information to be provided for those meetings?
6 A. Information, Mr. Lukic.
7 Q. What was the substance of those talks? Did General Dimitrijevic
8 tell you?
9 A. Mr. Lukic, the gist of all the talks was this: The military and
10 diplomatic representatives, particularly of the most influential Western
11 countries, wanted to know about the views and positions of the military
12 and even State leadership vis-a-vis the peace initiatives of the
13 international community.
14 Secondly, most of those representatives were fair. They would
15 provide their own assessments and views that were sometimes helpful to us
16 at the security administration, but also to the state leaders in their
17 work with these peace initiatives, agreeing to the Contact Group plan and
18 all the other initiatives that were in progress back then.
19 Q. Did General Dimitrijevic ever tell you whether any crimes were
20 discussed at any of those meetings, committed by whoever?
21 A. General Dimitrijevic never mentioned that as one of the subjects
22 being discussed.
23 Q. Do you remember any names, what those people were called, the
24 high representatives that General Dimitrijevic met?
25 A. Yes, I do, Mr. Lukic. The USA representative Hutchouse [as
1 interpreted], who was followed by Colonel Fischer. Colonel Ariolf [as
2 interpreted] on behalf of Italy, he was a military envoy. It has been a
3 long time. That's as much as I can remember.
4 Q. Our next document -- yesterday, at the beginning we spoke about
5 the information that you had about groups secretly arming themselves
6 before the clashes broke out. Did the security administration ever get
7 any information concerning citizens of other countries who were members
8 of the BH Army, Croatia's army, or any other army?
9 A. Yes, indeed, Mr. Lukic. That was the case.
10 Q. Can we please have Defence 65 ter 00719D. This is a document by
11 the chef de cabinet of the General Staff of the VJ. Dispatch on the 11th
12 of February, 1992, to the Federal Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Can we
13 please go to page 2 of the document.
14 General, what is this? I believe the document speaks for itself.
15 What sort of information is at stake here?
16 A. Mr. Lukic, if you look at the heading, you see what the document
17 is about and what the information is about. It's about the role of
18 Croatia. As is well known at the time Croatia was already an
19 internationally recognised country. So this discusses the role of
20 Croatia in the illegal arming and making it possible for foreign
21 mercenaries to cross its territory and use their civilian and military
22 infrastructure in order to reach Bosnia and Herzegovina by illegal
23 channels even before the clashes ever broke out in 1992 over in Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina, and even before Bosnia and Herzegovina became an
25 independent country. Its independence was proclaimed on the 7th of
1 April, 1992. The international recognition followed.
2 So Croatia was counteracting the resolutions of the Security
4 Q. Why would the security administration be interested in any --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Lukic please be
6 asked to repeat the question. We didn't understand.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Gajic.
8 Mr. Lukic, the interpreter didn't hear the question.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.
10 Q. Why did the security administration want to know about such
11 information as mentioned in the document?
12 A. Mr. Lukic, we wanted to know about this type of information
13 because for the most part we are dealing here with members of the
14 Mujahedin, who posed a certain security threat to the security of the
15 FRY. Even back then, we were facing the problem of Kosovo. We already
16 had information at the time indicating that some of these mercenaries,
17 particularly the Mujahedin, were seeping into Kosovo across the Albanian
18 border, even as early on as 1993. Therefore, it was particularly
19 important for us to be familiar with this type of information.
20 And if I may just add something. It was particularly important
21 because as early on as this, we were receiving information showing that
22 in Zenica a camp had been set up for the training of these Mujahedin.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be an appropriate --
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we might just have a this document
25 received, please, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
2 please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
4 Exhibit D268.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. We will then be at an
6 appropriate time. We'll take a break and come back at 4.00. Court
8 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, I will move to an entirely different subject. We will
13 talk about the events of February 1995 [as interpreted], the events in
14 Srebrenica and Zepa.
15 Could we please see on the screen document from the 65 ter list,
17 [In English] 00663D.
18 [Interpretation] Can you see it on the screen? If not, you also
19 have it in your binder.
20 This is an information on the state of the Muslim forces in the
21 Zepa enclave, dated 14th of July, 1995, sent by the 2nd administration of
22 the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.
23 Did you find this document?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. First of all, can you tell us something about the form of this
1 document. Whose document was it, and who was it sent to?
2 A. Mr. Lukic, this is an information of the 2nd administration of
3 the General Staff of the VJ that was sent daily, first of all to the
4 operations centre, to the Chief of the General Staff, and then to the
5 security administration, although I need to say that not all the
6 documents of this kind, informations, reached the security
8 Q. Down there we can see that this information was to be submitted
9 to the Colonel-General Momcilo Perisic; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In the first paragraph we can see -- I will read it out because
12 it is a short paragraph.
13 "Having taken the Srebrenica enclave, units of the VRS
14 concentrated their forces around the Zepa enclave, and on the 12th of
15 July, 1995, they issued an ultimatum to the commander of the 1st Zepa
16 Brigade ..."
17 I am particularly interested in what is written in paragraph 4,
18 where it says that one 80-man strong Muslim unit encircled a Ukrainian
19 company at 1235 hours and did not allow it to move.
20 Were you aware, General, in those days of problems in Zepa,
21 particularly in relation to the Ukrainian battalion?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What was the source of your information?
24 A. Mr. Lukic, it was first of all General Dimitrijevic who presented
25 this problem to me.
1 Q. What was it that General Dimitrijevic said?
2 A. General Dimitrijevic told me during our morning meetings that I
3 described yesterday that General Perisic will have to go, if I remember
4 well, he said, To Mladic, to Republika Srpska. So I asked him why, what
5 was the problem? And he told me, Well, it seems that there was a serious
6 problem regarding the Ukrainian battalion. And he added that it seemed
7 that the Ukrainian battalion was encircled. And bearing in mind
8 everything that was happening with the peace talks, this could become a
9 serious problem that could have some unwanted consequences since these
10 were international forces.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
12 this document into evidence.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I'm not objecting to the admission of
15 the document. However, I do have some concerns about the quality of the
16 translation, and for that reason I would suggest perhaps this should be
17 MFI'd at this time.
18 For example, there appears to be some text in the B/C/S original
19 at the bottom which we don't find -- at least I don't find in the
20 English. And at the same time, at the centre of the page, towards the
21 bottom of the English translation, we see, "This is a true copy of the
22 original," certified by a signature and stamped, but I don't see any such
23 markings in the original. So I'm wondering perhaps if this could be sent
24 to CLSS for a revised translation. If it could be MFI'd.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no objections, Your Honour. I
2 agree. We did get this officially from CLSS. It's an official
3 translation. Nevertheless, if there's a need to run a check, we might as
4 well MFI the document for our present purposes. What Mr. Saxon just said
5 is perfectly right. It needs checking.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Just two questions from me before we
7 admit it.
8 When you introduced this topic now, you said -- and this is at
9 page 30, line 18: "General, I'll move to an entirely different subject."
10 I see it says difficult subject. You said different subject. "I will
11 move to February 1995."
12 Now, this is the only document that you have shown the witness
13 since that introduction, and I see it's July 1995. Now, I wanted to be
14 sure with you, did you mean -- did you say February 1995? Or did you say
15 something else, because --
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because February 1995, the events in Srebrenica
18 and Zepa.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You have done very well to observe
20 that, Your Honour. It must be my error or the interpreter's error. I
21 was trying to say that I was moving on to an entirely different subject,
22 and secondly, I mentioned July 1995.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The second question is, I -- looking at this
24 document, I'm not able -- looking at the English part of translation, I'm
25 not able to determine whom it comes from.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd best just ask the witness
3 Q. Witness, can we see who --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And who it is going to.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [previous translation continues] ...
6 and who it is addressed to.
7 Q. General, based on what the document says, who is it sending this
8 document and who is the addressee?
9 A. Your Honours, Mr. Lukic, the bottom of this document states
10 2nd administration of the General Staff of the VJ on the right-hand side.
11 On the left-hand side just below the date, the 14th of July, 1995,
12 delivered to Colonel-General Momcilo Perisic.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for that, but who does it come from?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the 2nd
15 administration, the military intelligence administration.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of which army?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The VJ, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where do we see -- where do we see that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Okay. The Judge has shown me. Thank you
21 so much.
22 Okay. The document is admitted into evidence. And may it please
23 be given an exhibit number and be marked for identification.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
25 Exhibit 269, marked for identification. Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Now I would like to see another document on the screen. This is
3 from the 65 ter list, 00666D. This is the information number 115 of the
4 2nd administration of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, dated
5 the 18th of July, 1995. And it is mentioned here that the liaison
6 officer of "the Ukrainian battalion in Glina approached us with a request
7 following the capturing of a Ukrainian UNPROFOR company in Gorazde to
8 receive three representatives of their General Staff in the Federal
9 Republic of Yugoslavia and help them get in touch with the General Staff
10 of the Army of Republika Srpska in order to extract or liberate the
11 above-mentioned company."
12 General, do you know whether General Perisic went there in those
13 days as it was announced to you by General Dimitrijevic? So did he go to
14 the Main Staff of the VRS and why?
15 A. Yes, I know about that because General Dimitrijevic told me that
16 General Perisic went to Republika Srpska to try and help resolve this
17 situation. First of all, to see for himself what this problem was all
18 about and then to try and help for this company to be de-blocked or
20 Q. Do you know whether the Ukrainian battalion left the territory of
21 Zepa in those days? Do you remember?
22 A. Mr. Lukic, I can't remember that, but I do remember that I read
23 later on in an information or another document, I can't recall precisely,
24 that that battalion was de-blocked and that they once again regained some
25 normal conditions within which they could operate.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document
3 into evidence.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
7 Exhibit D270. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Did the security administration receive any information
11 concerning any events on the River Drina following the events in Zepa, so
12 anything to -- to the content that somebody swam over Drina, possibly
13 trying to flee?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was it that you can remember concerning this?
16 A. On the 31st of July, we received a telegram from the 2nd Military
17 District, and this was actually from the security organ of the
18 15th Border Battalion, which reported their direct superiors, and this
19 was the security organ of the Uzice Corps, and as I said, we received
20 this from the security organ of the 2nd Army, and the Uzice Corps at the
21 time belonged to the 2nd Army. So we received the information that a
22 certain number of members of the Muslim army swam over the Drina River
23 and thus came to the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
24 Q. Do you know for how long a period of time this lasted and how
25 many people swam across the river?
1 A. As far as I remember, it lasted for several days, possibly 3rd
2 and 4th of August. And if I remember well, it was several hundreds of
3 members of the Muslim armed forces.
4 Q. What happened to those people thereafter? Do you remember?
5 A. Mr. Lukic, in the first information, we learned that the command
6 immediately set up a three-member reception commission. If I recall
7 well, the names of the members of this commission were also included in
8 the information received. So they were registering all these people.
9 Quite a few of them were in poor condition. They caught colds or they
10 were wet, so their reception was organised. So the security organ was
11 also engaged to make sure that nothing would happen to those people.
12 Q. When you say the command, which command are you talking about?
13 Who organised this?
14 A. Mr. Lukic, this was the command of the 15th Border Battalion.
15 And through the chain of command, they informed their superiors at the
16 Uzice Corps about this issue, and further on through the 2nd Army, the
17 Chief of the General Staff and the General Staff as such also received
18 this information.
19 Q. It is perfectly clear to me, but for the record, we just have to
20 make sure we know which army we are talking about.
21 A. I apologise, Mr. Lukic. The Army of Yugoslavia.
22 Q. Could we please see on the screen document from the 65 ter
23 list 01131D.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you can see how this
25 was translated by our translation service, and I need to inform you that
1 we are talking about a -- a set of 12 documents, each document consisting
2 of four or five pages of names, and the translation service thus far
3 provided this kind of translation, and if you allow me, I will now use
4 this document with the witness, and we will focus only on the names that
5 are legible.
6 If Your Honours would like us to provide the entire document,
7 then I will request the translation service to do that, but I know that
8 this is their usual way of doing it when it is difficult to read the
9 names. So I would just like to go through some of the items with the
10 witness and I will see what the reaction will be of Your Honours and my
11 learned colleague from the Prosecution. So all I can tell you now is
12 that we are talking about 12 documents, each of them containing four or
13 five pages, and this is the kind of information contained in these
14 documents. But if you allow me, would I like first of all to ask the
15 witness certain questions and possibly he will clarify the meaning of
16 this document.
17 Q. What is it, sir, that we can see in front of us now?
18 A. Mr. Lukic, this is a list of members of the Muslim armed forces
19 who, after the 31st of July, 1995, and thereafter, came to the territory
20 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and it also contains some data.
21 Q. Could you tell us which data were entered into this document.
22 A. Mr. Lukic, first of all maybe I can comment on the heading. You
23 can see "Military post number 2493," and you can see the date. This is
24 the 1st of August. Yes, the 1st of August.
25 Q. Just a second, sir. You said 1998.
1 A. No, 1995. So this is the military post designating the 15th
2 Border Battalion. And here we can see a list that contains different
3 columns. First of all, the number, then the name, father's name, and the
4 last name. In the third column we can see the date of birth and the
5 place of birth. So the third column is divided into two. Then the
6 fourth column is unit that the person comes from, and the last column is
7 their occupation. And at the end of each list you can see that the
8 person who compiled the list signed it.
9 Q. Just to clarify the numbers. So column 5 is the membership of
10 the unit, and column 6 the occupation; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, I apologise.
12 Q. Could we please see the last page of this document in the B/C/S,
13 and this is the portion that has been translated for Their Honours in
14 English. Here we can see the hand-over commission and the reception or
15 admittance commission. Here where we can see the hand-over commission,
16 the persons listed here, which institution they came from?
17 A. Mr. Lukic, we can see that these were officers of the 15th Border
18 Battalion of the Army of Yugoslavia. I can read their names.
19 Q. That will not be necessary. Can you tell us this reception
20 commission or admittance commission, which institution they came from?
21 A. Mr. Lukic, these were representatives of the Ministry of the
22 Interior, and you can see that the commission consisted of three members
23 who acted as a commission, as a group, when they received these persons,
24 and this is why they signed this here.
25 Q. In this column which says "Unit," we can see certain data. Could
1 you tell us members of whose army were those based on the data entered
2 under "Unit"?
3 A. Mr. Lukic, we can see that these were members of the Muslim armed
5 Q. And the last number on this list is 53. So it says, "Concluded
6 with number 53;" is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have another list that was
9 typewritten which is probably legible a bit more, but now I would like to
10 tender this list, this document, into evidence. I suggest that we do not
11 go document by document, but because they're of the same type, if my
12 learned colleague from the OTP has into objection, then I would not put
13 all of these documents before the witness, but I suggest that we tender
14 them as such.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON: I don't have an objection to proceeding that way.
17 However, I do have a question regarding translation and what exactly then
18 is being admitted. Is it Mr. Lukic's proposition to tender each of these
19 lists in their entirety, because if that's the case, then I would ask
20 that we get a full English translation and that it be marked for
21 identification at this time until we get the full translations. If he's
22 only using excerpts as an example, then would I simply like that to be
23 entered into record that that is what's -- that is the exhibit.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Given the data entered into these
1 lists, that these were members of identified units, I would suggest that
2 we translate these entire lists and that we then tender them as such or
3 that we, rather, receive them as such, and in meantime we can MFI them.
4 Your Honour, if you allow me, maybe I could show you another
5 example in the meantime which is typewritten, so possibly it would be
6 better even for people who do not understand Serbian, because you could
7 see what kind of data are entered into those lists.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think there's any problem with the kind of
9 data that's entered into the list. The problem is the one that was
10 raised by Mr. Saxon, and you seem to agree to his suggestion, that we
11 mark them for identification and we get them translated, and then we can
12 move on to the next point. Okay? Then the documents are admitted into
13 evidence. May they please be given an exhibit number and be marked for
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
16 Exhibit D271, marked for identification. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just so that we are clear, are the parties agreed,
18 in fact, that the entire 12 documents that you referred to are being so
19 admitted and they will be so translated? Or is it just this document?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. I suggested -- now my case
21 manager informed me that there are 14 lists. Could you hold on just a
22 second, please.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right. And they under
25 14 different numbers on our 65 ter list. So I would propose for all of
1 them to now be given their MFI numbers without presenting them one by one
2 to the witness, or possibly we can also do it outside the courtroom,
3 whatever the secretariat believes best.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess you have no objection to that, Mr. Saxon?
5 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then we'll do it so, and can it be done
7 outside court, and then you can move on to the next point. Thank you.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 While we are still on this subject, could the witness please be
10 shown 65 ter 00851D.
11 The document has been translated into English in its entirety,
12 Your Honours.
13 Q. Mr. Gajic, what does this document tell us? Whose document is
14 it? And can you see it?
15 A. Yes, I can. This is a document by the Ministry of the Interior
16 of the Republic of Serbia, specifically the Uzice Secretariat of the
17 Interior. The date is the 3rd of August, 1995.
18 Q. Does this document talk about the same developments that you
19 described a while ago?
20 A. Indeed, Mr. Lukic. This is a list of ethnic Muslims who belonged
21 to the Muslim armed forces, and that is what we have been talking about.
22 Q. Very well.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
25 please be given an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
2 Exhibit 272. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Could we please have 65 ter 00821D. The date is the 8th of
7 March, 1996.
8 Wait a minute, sir. We want this on our screens. As soon as you
9 can see it, tell us whose document it is and what it's about.
10 Who is the author of this document, General?
11 A. This is information on the living conditions among the members of
12 the Muslim armed forces in the reception centres of Mitrovo Polje and
13 Vranicka [as interpreted] Polje. The document was produced, as you said,
14 on the 8th of March, 1996, by the SUP of Uzice, which was under the
15 Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia.
16 Q. There is a reference here to a total of 799 persons in
17 paragraph 1, the time period being from the 31st of July to the 25th of
19 General, based on this report are these the same persons that you
20 mentioned a minute ago?
21 A. Indeed, Mr. Lukic.
22 Q. Moreover, the document states that the public was informed about
23 the active involvement of the MUP, UNHCR, and the International
24 Red Cross, members of foreign diplomatic representations came as well,
25 the embassies, and international media as well. I'm just summing up?
1 I'm trying to avoid reading the entire document. I did show you this
2 during proofing.
3 Did you know at the time about what this says. And is this
4 really what happened?
5 A. Yes, I knew that at the time.
6 Q. Page 2, there is something that I find interesting. If you could
7 please comment, sir. It's the last paragraph on that page.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next page in the English, please.
9 Your Honours, it's the sentence at the top of the page. Foreign
10 currency is mentioned there and an exchange office that was established.
11 Q. Do you know whether any money was seized from those people? Were
12 there any problems like that at all?
13 A. No, Mr. Lukic, there were no problems like that at all. As you
14 suggest, International Red Cross was informed immediately as well as the
15 UNHCR, and they made a great effort to put these people up.
16 Q. What became of these persons later on, if you know, sir.
17 A. Mr. Lukic, I know that those persons were allowed to decide for
18 themselves as to what their next destination would be upon leaving the
19 reception centres. As far as I know, most of them headed west, most of
20 them through Hungary. Every security measure available was taken in the
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
24 please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
1 Exhibit D273. Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Another document on this same topic, 65 ter 00822D.
6 Sir, are you familiar with this document? What can you tell us
7 about it?
8 A. Indeed I am, Mr. Lukic. The date is the 26th of October, 1995.
9 It talks about a report produced by two forensic epidemiological teams or
10 health teams who examined all the members of the Muslim armed forces in
11 these two reception centres here. They performed medical checks and duly
12 submitted a report about that. They also actually signed this report
13 after they proposed certain measures.
14 Q. There are references here to two facilities. One of them is the
15 Vranisko [as interpreted] Polje reception centre; and the other is the
16 Mitrovo Polje reception centre. Do you in fact know that the Muslims who
17 had swum across the Drina River in early August were in those reception
19 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic, I actually knew that.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
22 please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
24 Exhibit D274. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm done with this subject.
3 Q. General, I asked you when we discussed your CV, Where were you
4 serving late in 1993 and early 1994?
5 A. I was chief of the security department of the 1st Army command in
6 Belgrade at the time, Mr. Lukic.
7 Q. When did you take up that position, sir?
8 A. On the 1st of August, 1992.
9 Q. When did you go back to the security administration?
10 A. I got a transfer back to the security administration in early
11 April 1994.
12 Q. While you were chief of security in the 1st Army, did you ever
13 hear of the Drina plan?
14 A. No, I didn't, Mr. Lukic.
15 Q. When you were back to the security administration, did you
16 perhaps then hear of the Drina plan?
17 A. Mr. Lukic, again the answer is no.
18 Q. Could we please have P215. Thank you.
19 You were shown this document during proofing, General. Did you
20 ever see this document at any point in time before we commenced your
21 proofing, sir?
22 A. No, sir, Mr. Lukic. The first time I set eyes on this document
23 was during proofing.
24 Q. We saw that document on the -- the remit of the security
25 administration. We looked at all the organisational units of the
1 General Staff of the VJ, and the security administration is involved in
2 the drafting of a plan on the use of --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I'm not saying you shouldn't show the
4 witness the document, but he said he had never heard of the Drina plan,
5 he'd never seen the Drina plan before until you proofed him. What can he
6 tell us about this document?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask the witness
8 about this.
9 Q. When plans such as this are produced, what is the role of the
10 security organ in that process?
11 A. Mr. Lukic, the security administration draws up what we call an
12 attachment which is then attached to this kind of plan. It has two
13 components. One is an assessment, and the other is a security plan, a
14 single document with two components, hence.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. When a plan like this is drawn up at the strategic level, the
17 level of the General Staff, are there any activities by the army at lower
18 levels during the implementation? Particularly, I have in mind the
19 security organ.
20 A. Mr. Lukic, when a plan like this is drawn up at the strategic
21 level, meaning the General Staff of the VJ, all the subordinate strategic
22 commands, meaning the armies, must then be given other documents as well,
23 a decision and an extract from a directive such as this, which then
24 allows them to produce their own documents. The security organ at the
25 level of an army would then use these excerpts from the security plan,
1 which was produced by the General Staff, and then they would get this and
2 produce the same kind of document at the army level.
3 Q. When a document like this is produced at the General Staff level,
4 who proposes the part about the commitment of the security bodies, and
5 who then goes on to approve it?
6 A. The security administration does, Mr. Lukic -- or, rather, an
7 officer appointed by the chief of the security administration to be
8 involved in the production of this plan, and the whole thing is approved
9 by the person who normally approves all such documents, that being the
10 Chief of the General Staff.
11 Q. I'm done with this document. General, under the rules of service
12 governing the work of security bodies, was any co-operation envisaged
13 between the security organs and -- and the state security organs, and I
14 mean the MUP bodies in charge of state security?
15 A. Mr. Lukic, in the former Yugoslavia, as we call it, there was a
16 set of instructions called "Instructions regarding mutual relations and
17 co-operation between the state security service and the security
18 administration, the General Staff of the VJ."
19 After Yugoslavia's break-up and once the new FRY was established,
20 there was no new set of instructions. The old one applied.
21 Nevertheless, it was never really used.
22 Q. In point of fact, throughout the period that we're talking about,
23 and I'm sure you realise by now what we're looking into, specifically
24 during the war between 1992 and 1995, what was your co-operation with the
25 State Security Service of the FRY?
1 A. To use a military term, tactical level and partially also at the
2 operative level, it was fair and square. We dealt with some specific
3 issues, specific cases involving foreign agencies, terrorism, crime, and
4 so on and so forth. At the strategic level, the co-operation, however,
5 was quite poor. I shall be bold enough to add that it wasn't our fault,
6 but, rather, that of the other side, of our counterpart.
7 Q. When you say the strategic level, who exactly do you mean? And
8 when you say your counterpart, who exactly do you mean?
9 A. Mr. Lukic, when I say the strategic level, I mean the security
10 administration or the heads of the State Security Service of the Republic
11 of Serbia.
12 Q. Who was at the head of the state security of the Republic of
13 Serbia at the time?
14 A. The head of the state security sector at the time was
15 Mr. Jovica Stanisic.
16 Q. Did you have any sort of relationship in terms of communication
17 and co-operation with the state security bodies of Republika Srpska and
18 the Republic of Serbian Krajina?
19 A. No, none at all.
20 Q. Mr. Gajic, by way of a conclusion, I have only one topic left to
21 raise before I can conclude my examination.
22 During the war did you ever receive any information about crimes,
23 specifically the crimes in Srebrenica and Sarajevo through any official
24 intelligence reports?
25 A. No, Mr. Lukic. That was never the case.
1 Q. Did you ever receive anything from the security bodies in terms
2 of reports talking about the crimes in Srebrenica and Sarajevo during the
4 A. Again, Mr. Lukic, the answer is no.
5 Q. Could we please have 65 ter 01091D. This is a report of the
6 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia, dated 21st of July, 1997,
7 sent to the National Council for co-operation with the ICTY. You can see
8 in the heading the basis for this request was the defence of
9 Mr. Momcilo Perisic.
10 Under 1, we can see that the military security and military
11 intelligence agencies of the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of
12 Serbia are mentioned. Could you tell us, these bodies, which other
13 bodies did they replace?
14 A. The military security agency replaced the security administration
15 of the -- of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia; and the
16 military intelligence agency replaced the military intelligence
17 administration of the General Staff.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please receive
19 an exhibit number for this document.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
23 Exhibit D275. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] With this I have completed my
1 examination, Mr. Gajic. Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at all.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
4 Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours. May I just have a moment to
6 get myself organised?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means, Mr. Saxon.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon:
9 Q. Good afternoon, General Gajic. My name is Dan Saxon, and I'm
10 representing the Prosecution today.
11 A. Good afternoon, sir.
12 Q. I have some questions for you, if I can. If I may, maybe I'll
13 just start close to where Mr. Lukic left off. He showed you a plan that
14 has been referred to as the Drina plan. It was Prosecution Exhibit P215.
15 It's actually -- the full title is "The plan Drina for the use of the
16 Yugoslav Army, Army of Republika Srpska, and the Serb Army of Krajina."
17 And I believe you testified a few minutes ago that you had never heard of
18 this plan, although you also explained the responsibilities of the
19 security administration with respect to these kinds of plans, and you've
20 testified today about the importance of the situation close to the border
21 or the borders of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and how that was
22 relevant and important to the security administration. And so I guess I
23 would just ask you, first of all, in order to be able to protect the
24 borders of the FRY during the armed conflict between 1993 and 1995,
25 the -- the FRY, and, of course, the Army of Yugoslavia would want to have
1 a plan in place, wouldn't it, in case, for example, an event such as
2 Operation Storm or Operation Flash occurred?
3 A. Sir, you asked many different questions, so I will try to answer
4 one by one. It is rather difficult to answer to this question which says
5 "wouldn't it." But first of all, when it comes to the directive, I said
6 that the first time I saw this directive was from the hands of Mr. Lukic.
7 Before then I never saw it.
8 Secondly, I said that while I was the chief of security
9 department of the command of the 1st Army, I also never received any
10 document that would have "Drina" in its title. When I came back to the
11 security administration again, I never saw any document marked with the
12 word "Drina." So the first time I saw a document marked with the word
13 "Drina," this was when Counsel Lukic showed it to me. I never
14 participated in its drafting, in any phase of its drafting. And secondly
15 when you said that -- as I said, I never participated in drafting of the
16 plans or this directive, and I talked about the obligations of the
17 security organs when a similar war plan or directive was drafted. So
18 whenever such a document was drafted at a security level, the security
19 administration would always provide its contribution, and that
20 contribution would consist of two elements, the textual element and a
21 table that would be called a plan of security.
22 So I can't really answer any questions concerning this particular
23 document because I never saw it. I did not participate in --
24 Q. General, sorry. I never suggested that you had seen this
25 document, and I haven't asked you about this document. Let me try to ask
1 my question more simply.
2 Given the circumstances taking place in the area of the former
3 Yugoslavia in 1994/1995, as a prudent armed force, the Army of Yugoslavia
4 needed to have a plan in case the security of its borders were
5 threatened; right?
6 A. Yes, sir. It had its war plan. The Army of Yugoslavia did have
7 the war plan.
8 Q. Okay. And this plan, in case -- for example, in case Croatian
9 forces threatened to invade the -- or did invade the territories of the
10 Republic of Serbian Krajina and Republika Srpska, what was the -- what
11 was the plan to defend the borders of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
12 A. Sir, in case of an aggression, we had a defence plan for the
13 protection of the territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of
15 Q. And the name of that plan?
16 A. I'm not sure that I can say this. I'm not sure that I'm not
17 under the obligation to protect this confidential information concerning
18 the name of that plan.
19 Q. Then I'll withdraw my question. Can you tell us where such a
20 plan has been recorded or kept?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would suggest if we continue with
23 this line of questioning to move into a private session.
24 MR. SAXON: Very well.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
1 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
11 MR. SAXON:
12 Q. General Gajic, on Wednesday at -- this is at page 10840 of the
13 transcript. You agreed with the proposition put to you by Mr. Lukic that
14 the VJ, the VRS, and the SVK were "three entirely separate and
15 independent armies." Do you recall that?
16 A. I recall that, sir.
17 Q. And again yesterday, this is at pages 10842 to 10843, you
18 described how the chief of the intelligence security sector of the VRS
19 was Colonel and later General Zdravko Tolimir. You described how
20 Ljubisa Beara was chief of the VRS military security sector, and how
21 Colonel Petar Salapura was the chief of military intelligence for the
22 VRS. Do you recall that?
23 A. Yes, I recall that, sir.
24 Q. Were you aware that each of these men were assigned to the
25 30th Personnel Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia? I should say, of the
1 General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia.
2 A. I was aware that they were on the register of the 30th Personnel
4 Q. I see.
5 MR. SAXON: Well, can we show the witness what is P2698, please.
6 Q. And, General Gajic, this is an extract of the VJ personnel file
7 of Petar Salapura.
8 MR. SAXON: And if we could scroll down a bit, please, in the
9 B/C/S version. And if we could go to page 5 of the English version,
11 Q. General, if you direct your attention to the second row from the
12 bottom, you'll see it says there that Petar Salapura was transferred and
13 assigned to the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia's 30th Personnel
14 Centre. Do you see that?
15 A. Could you please read this once again? I have difficulty reading
17 MR. SAXON: Can we please scroll to the --
18 Q. We see in the left-hand corner it says -- left-hand column, it
20 "Transferred and assigned in keeping with MF outside the garrison
21 due to service requirements, chief of intelligence department."
22 And the next column to the right:
23 "General Staff, 30th Personnel Centre, Belgrade garrison."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 Q. And then further to the right, we see, "10 November 1993." So
2 can we agree that Colonel Salapura was transferred and assigned to the
3 30th Personnel Centre?
4 A. Sir, he was merely registered in the 30th personnel centre in
5 order to be able to resolve his status-related and social entitlements,
6 and this was the purpose for which the 30th Personnel Centre was
7 established, the 30th Personnel Centre which was, as far as I know, under
8 the administration for personnel affairs of the General Staff of the VJ.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Saxon, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
10 You've referred to this column which says, "10th November 1993." What is
11 the heading of that column at the beginning of this chapter?
12 MR. SAXON: "Period from-to."
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. Well, sir, can we agree on this: The document says, "transferred
16 and assigned," does it not?
17 A. Yes, this is what the document says, but I explained what was the
18 function of the 30th Personnel Centre and why it was established.
19 Q. And military documents are meant to be precise; right?
20 A. Sir, I am not an expert for personnel issues. I am a
21 counter-intelligence officer, and I can tell you as much as I know
22 concerning the 30th Personnel Centre.
23 Q. Sir, I'm going to stop you now. I asked you a very simple
24 question. I'll repeat it, and I'd like an answer.
25 Military documents are meant to be precise; right?
1 A. Generally speaking, yes.
2 MR. SAXON: Can we show -- we can leave this document, and can we
3 show P2128, please.
4 Q. And we see here the first page. We see in handwriting, "Order by
5 the chief, PRU, number 5-34." And then we see, "9, 7 February 1994."
6 General Gajic, are you aware whether the acronym PRU refers to
7 personnel, or personnel order or administration?
8 A. Unfortunately, I can't say that. I don't know.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I don't know what PRU stands for.
11 MR. SAXON: Okay. Can we move to the next page in both
12 languages, please.
13 Q. And if we could focus on what's at the top of the screen, please.
14 It says:
15 "Order number 5-34 of the chief of personnel administration of
16 the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army of February 7th, 1994."
17 And then below that it says: "Transferred and appointed."
18 Are you following me, General?
19 A. Yes, I am, sir.
20 MR. SAXON: Can we turn to page 3 in the English version, please,
21 and the next page in the B/C/S version. And if you -- actually,
22 Mr. Registrar, if you could focus on number 3, which is starting in the
23 middle of the page in the B/C/S version to make it easier for
24 General Gajic. Thank you.
25 Q. You see, General Gajic, if we --
1 MR. SAXON: And if we could scroll down in the English, please.
2 Q. Again we see an order related to Petar Salapura. It says:
3 "At the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia."
4 And, actually --
5 "30th Personnel Centre, Main Staff, as chief of the intelligence
7 MR. SAXON: And can we go to the next page in English, please.
8 Q. We see what it says.
9 "He is transferred and appointed as per the needs of the service,
10 effective 10 November 1993, when the establishment was prescribed."
11 Are you following me?
12 A. Where is this? We are talking about Petar Salapura, are we? I
14 Q. Yes. Towards the bottom of the page in your version.
15 A. Yes, yes, I can see this.
16 MR. SAXON: And then if you look -- can we go one page forward in
17 the B/C/S version. Same page in English.
18 Q. And there we see "Zdravko Tolimir."
19 MR. SAXON: I see Mr. Lukic is on his feet.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, on the previous page you can
22 see the name and the surname in B/C/S, so possibly the witness should be
23 shown the previous page, first of all.
24 MR. SAXON: I'm grateful. Could we move back to the previous
25 page and focus on the bottom.
1 Q. You see Mr. Tolimir is mentioned there? Item number 4.
2 A. Yes, I can see that, sir.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. SAXON: And can we then go to the next page in Serbo-Croat,
6 Q. And we see now that Mr. Tolimir is at the General Staff of the
7 Army of Yugoslavia, he's being transferred and appointed to the
8 30th Personnel Centre, Main Staff, as assistant chief.
9 Again, below, he is transferred and appointed as per the needs of
10 the service, effective 10 November 1993.
11 Are you with me?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. SAXON: Okay. Your Honour, I see the time. Shall we pause
14 now and we'll continue with this document.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please. We'll take a break and come back at
16 quarter to 6.00. Court adjourned.
17 --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
20 MR. SAXON:
21 Q. General Gajic, we were reviewing --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Saxon, please.
23 MR. SAXON: I'm very sorry.
24 Q. We were reviewing what is Exhibit P2128, and I believe when we
25 stopped we were looking at the entry for Colonel Tolimir. Do you see
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where he is transferred and appointed as per the needs of the
4 service, effective 10 November 1993. And he's being transferred and
5 appointed to the 30th Personnel Centre. Isn't that what this document
7 A. Yes, sir. That's right.
8 MR. SAXON: Okay. Can we please turn to page 17 in the English
9 version. And I will give a page number in the Serbo-Croat version, if I
10 can. We'd be looking for entry number 27 in the Serbo-Croat version,
11 which is on page 15. Are we on -- now can we go to page 15 in the --
12 there we go. Okay. And if we could -- actually, can we please go
13 forward one page in B/C/S, please. And if we could - thank you - zoom in
14 on what is number 27. And if we could scroll to the bottom of the page
15 in English, please.
16 Q. And you'll see here, General Gajic, Ljubisa Beara, a gentleman
17 who you knew, to the Yugoslav army General Staff, 30th Personnel Centre,
18 as chief of department. And on the right-hand side we see the date,
19 10 November 1993.
20 MR. SAXON: Can we move forward one page in the English version,
22 Q. And we see, again with respect to Mr. Beara, that he was also --
23 he was transferred and appointed as per the needs of the service. Do you
24 see that, General Gajic?
25 A. I see that.
1 Q. So can we agree that Ljubisa Beara was also transferred and
2 appointed to the 30th Personnel Centre?
3 A. Sir, his record was being kept by the 30th Personnel Centre so
4 that he could avail himself of his social benefits and status
5 entitlements. As far as I know as I said yesterday he was the chief of
6 the security administration and the General Staff of the VJ. Therefore,
7 he was outside the chain of command of the VJ and was now part of the
8 chain of command of the VRS. I have to say I am no professional in this
9 matter, but that is my interpretation.
10 Q. Well, do I take your response, General, to my question as a yes
11 or as a no?
12 A. Sir, what is your question?
13 Q. I'll repeat it. I thought it was pretty clear.
14 My question was, can we agree that Ljubisa Beara was also
15 transferred and appointed to the 30th Personnel Centre? You can answer
16 "Yes," "No," "I don't know."
17 A. I don't understand the question. I explained what I believe the
18 answer should be. I know of no other answer.
19 Q. Well, can we agree that the document, this order that was issued
20 in February 1994, uses the language "transferred and appointed," doesn't
21 it? Isn't that the language that we saw?
22 A. That's right, sir. That's what it says.
23 Q. The document doesn't use the term, "is registered in the
24 30th Personnel Centre," does it?
25 A. That's right, sir.
1 Q. Did you know a man named Svetozar Kosoric from the JNA and the
2 Army of Yugoslavia? I'll spell that, K-o-s-o-r-i-c, with the diacritic.
3 Svetozar Kosoric. Did you know him?
4 A. No, sir. That name doesn't ring a bell, not based on what you
6 MR. SAXON: Okay. Can we please show the witness what is
7 Exhibit P2518, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I believe it's confidential, Mr. Saxon.
9 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour. You're absolutely
10 correct. Can we move into private session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
12 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 Yes, Mr. Lukic -- I beg your pardon.
16 Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: I'll take that as a compliment, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
19 MR. SAXON:
20 Q. If you take a look at this document, General Gajic, you will see
21 it is a request from the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska Army, dated
22 the 23rd of May, 1995, titled, "Request, sending officers on assignment
23 pursuant to Article 58 of the Yugoslav Army Law."
24 And then we see it says stamped "personally to," and then "the
25 Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army." Do you see that?
1 A. I see that, sir.
2 Q. And this document is from the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff of
3 the VRS, lieutenant General Manojlo Jovanovic. And it says:
4 "Based on the real need for the engagement of specific Yugoslav
5 Army officers in VRS commands and units, we request you to send the
6 following officers for temporary assistance, pursuant to Article 58 of
7 the Yugoslav Army Law."
8 And the first officer, forgive me if I'm mispronouncing his name,
9 Svetozar Kosoric, son of Djoko, lieutenant-colonel.
10 "Currently chief of the VJ special units corps armoured brigade,
11 organ for intelligence affairs, in order to appoint him as the chief of
12 the VRS Drina Corps Command Department for Intelligences Affairs."
13 Are you following me?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And then we see the second gentleman, Branko Karlica.
16 "Currently a desk officer at the Yugoslav Army General Staff 2nd
18 Did you know Branko Karlica?
19 A. Officer number one and officer number two are members of the
20 military intelligence administration not of the security administration
21 of the General Staff of the VJ.
22 Q. Fine. My question was, Did you know Branko Karlica?
23 A. No, sir, I didn't.
24 Q. It says:
25 "... the mentioned officers have expressed their willingness to
1 be temporarily assigned and sent to the relevant VRS commands, whereby
2 their status should be regulated adequately with their appointments in
3 the VJ units being put on temporary stay."
4 And then it says:
5 "As the mentioned officers have a professional background that is
6 crucial to us, and as they were born in these territories, we hope that
7 you will have understanding."
8 Have you been following me?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 MR. SAXON: Can we now show the witness -- and, Your Honours, we
11 can move back into public session, please.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will do that -- I just wanted to check
13 something. You ...
14 MR. SAXON: Can I assist you, Your Honour?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: No thanks. You did not need to assist me. The
16 transcript has done so. Thank you so much.
17 MR. SAXON: Okay.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
23 MR. SAXON: Can we please show General Gajic Exhibit P2103.
24 Q. And here we see a document, General Gajic, from the Drina Corps
25 commander, dated the 20th of August, 1995, by which Svetozar Kosoric has
1 been appointed as the chief of the intelligence department, the
2 intelligence security organ and the ground forces of the corps, the
3 30th Personnel Centre of the General Staff, the army of Yugoslav Army.
4 You see that?
5 A. Yes, I do, sir.
6 MR. SAXON: Can we scroll to the -- can we go to the -- can we go
7 to the next page in English. Excuse me. If we stay on the -- I'm sorry.
8 Can we please go back to the first page in English. It's my fault.
9 Focus on the bottom of the page, please. And can we please scroll down
10 in the B/C/S version.
11 So we see the document explains that Mr. Kosoric has been
12 standing in as -- for the chief of the intelligence department in
13 accordance with this order from the 19th of June, 1995.
14 Can we go to the next page in English, please.
15 Q. And the last section or provision, we see the words "Statement of
16 reasons." And it says:
17 "Chief of intelligence department formation post at ground
18 forces corps, the 30th Personnel Centre, General Staff of the VJ, has
19 been unfulfilled for a longer period of time, so Acting Officer had to be
20 appointed until replenishment will be perform in any other way."
21 So we see that Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric -- excuse me,
22 Colonel Kosoric was appointed in this position through the 30th Personnel
23 Centre; right?
24 A. I've explained that, and I have nothing to add. I said as much
25 as I could.
1 Q. Did you know Vujadin Popovic, sir, in the JNA, in the Army of
3 A. No, sir. I don't remember.
4 Q. You didn't know them, or you don't remember? I'm sorry.
5 A. I didn't know him.
6 Q. All right.
7 MR. SAXON: Can we move into private session, please,
8 Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
10 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness P2066, please. And that does
15 not look like the right exhibit at all. Is that P2066? 2066. I'm
17 Q. General Gajic, this is an extract, if you will, from the VJ
18 personnel file of Vujadin Popovic.
19 MR. SAXON: And if we could turn, please, to page 2 in the
20 English version, please. And if we could focus -- there we go. Thank
21 you so much.
22 Q. And you'll see, General Gajic, around halfway down the page in
23 your version we see that Mr. Popovic became the head of the security
24 department in the intelligence security organ in the 30th Personnel
25 Centre of the General Staff of the VJ beginning on the 1st of February,
1 1995. Do you see that?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. If we can remain in private session. Did you know a
4 gentleman, sir, named Radoslav Jankovic in the JNA, the VJ?
5 A. Sir, I don't remember that.
6 Q. Okay.
7 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness Exhibit P2519.
8 Q. You'll see, General Gajic, this is a document from the Main Staff
9 of the Army of Republika Srpska, dated the 25th of April, 1995. There's
10 a handwritten note at the top. It says:
11 "Krga, proposal, but after talks with them."
12 And then it says:
13 "To the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, to the attention of
14 the Chief of Staff."
15 Branko Krga was a member of the General Staff of the Army of
16 Yugoslavia, wasn't he, in 1995?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And his position was what?
19 A. Sir, he was chief of the military intelligence administration.
20 Q. And the document says:
21 "Please, as soon as possible send us the following officers for
22 duty in the VRS Main Staff intelligence administration."
23 The first person is Colonel Rade Katic, who previously spent one
24 year of service in the VRS Main Staff, but then he returned to duty in
25 the VJ Main Staff.
1 Second person, Lieutenant-Colonel Radoslav Jankovic, currently on
2 duty in the VJ General Staff 2nd administration.
3 "On your request he was temporarily reassigned to the VRS Main
4 Staff intelligence administration where he spent two months.
5 "Both persons are born in the territory of the Republika Srpska,
6 where their parents still reside."
7 And then it says:
8 "As the VRS Main Staff administration remains undermanned, there
9 are only four officers and one non-commissioned officer, but the extent
10 of the job is increasing, especially in the section for analysis. I
11 kindly ask you to grant this request as soon as possible." And then we
12 see that it's from General Ratko Mladic.
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And then there is message at the bottom of the page from
16 Sinisa Borovic, addressed to, "Sir, Colonel."
17 "We forward you the VRS Main Staff telegram and inform you that
18 the chief of the VJ General Staff ordered: 'Krga, proposal, but after
19 talks with them.'"
20 MR. SAXON: Can we please move back into public session,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: With the document still on the screen?
23 MR. SAXON: Without it, Your Honour. We can leave this document
24 now. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Main the document please be removed, and may the
1 Chamber please move into open session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: And I'd like to play some excerpts from what is P438,
7 some video material.
8 Q. And, General Gajic, I'm going to show you some video material
9 from a meeting that was held at the Hotel Fontana in the town of
10 Bratunac, in Republika Srpska, on the 13th of July, 1995. And I'm going
11 to stop it at certain points.
12 Can we start at 1:42:45. It takes a while, Your Honour, to bring
13 this up on Sanction.
14 One hour, 42 minutes, and 45 seconds.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. SAXON: Stop there, please.
17 Q. General, the man facing us -- we're at 1:42:52.
18 General, the man facing us who is bald with the moustache has
19 been identified in testimony before this Chamber as Colonel
20 Svetozar Kosoric.
21 MR. SAXON: Can we continue now to 1:44:30, and then start again,
22 please. Just fast-forward, please. Can we move forward, please. It's
23 very difficult to see. Can we move forward, please, to 1:45:09.
24 Q. If we stop there at 1:45:11, again at the far right-hand corner
25 of the table we see Colonel Kosoric.
1 MR. SAXON: Can we fast forward, please, to 1:50:29.
2 Q. General, the man facing us on the other side of the table, this
3 is at 1:50:29, with the moustache, has been identified by witnesses in
4 these proceedings as Colonel Vujadin Popovic. And if we could -- and the
5 man at the end of the table, on the left end, facing us, has been
6 identified as Radoslav Jankovic.
7 Now, my question for you is, you've talked about the fact that
8 you knew Mr. Tolimir, Salapura, Beara, because you knew them from the
9 security intelligence organs, that they were serving in the VRS. We've
10 just seen these gentlemen here, Kosoric, Popovic, Jankovic, also serving
11 in the VRS, coming from the Army of Yugoslavia.
12 I want to go back to your position that you made earlier about
13 these being separate and independent armies. Wouldn't it be fair to say,
14 General Gajic, that the VRS was dependent on the VJ for its senior-level
15 security and intelligence officers? Isn't that really what this evidence
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Okay. We can't --
19 A. I can also explain.
20 Q. All right. Please.
21 A. You started, if you excuse me, by asking me the questions that
22 should have come later, and you didn't ask me what I tried to explain,
23 and this is how the 30th Personnel Centre was set up and what its role
24 actually was.
25 So these were officers who were -- who were dispatched and
1 voluntarily so. You saw from the documents that interviews were carried
2 out with them. So they were dispatched voluntarily to the Army of
3 Republika Srpska, and they were appointed at certain positions within the
4 Army of Republika Srpska. So they were outside the chain of command of
5 the VJ, and they were now within the chain of command of the Army of
6 Republika Srpska.
7 The 30th Personnel Centre was formed, if you allow me -- please
8 allow me, because these are some of the principal issues.
9 The 30th Personnel Centre was formed in order to keep the records
10 of these persons so that these persons could regulate their
11 status-related issues which they were entitled to pursuant to law. This
12 is my answer.
13 Q. General Gajic, where did you see in the documents that I've shown
14 you that these gentlemen were dispatched voluntarily to the Army of
15 Republika Srpska? Where did you see that? Where did I show you a
16 document that Ljubisa Beara was dispatched voluntarily to the Army of
17 Republika Srpska, Petar Salapura --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon now asked three questions.
20 First of all, a general question and then some specific questions. So
21 possibly he would like to rephrase those questions, or ask them one by
23 MR. SAXON: My colleague makes a fair point.
24 Q. General --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: If -- I may not remember which of these exhibits
1 you showed us, but there's one where it was talking about two gentlemen
2 who were interviewed and said they were willing to go back.
3 MR. SAXON: Okay. We'll go back to that. Ah, yes. Can we --
4 can we show the witness what is P2518, please. And can the Registry help
5 me whether this is a -- can we move into private session.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
7 Sorry, Mr. Court Usher.
8 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
12 MR. SAXON: Okay. Can we scroll down to the bottom of the page
13 in English, please.
14 Q. And we see in this document, General Gajic, that you are right
15 with respect to these two individuals, Svetozar Kosoric and
16 Branko Karlica. It says that they have expressed their willingness to be
17 temporarily assigned and sent to the relevant VRS commands.
18 Now, can we move out of public session? We don't need this
19 document any more.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into -- do you want to
21 stay in closed session while you object, sir, or --
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one thing I would like to say.
23 Possibly we can clarify this with the witness now or I'll do it in my
24 redirect, but we have a significant problem with the translation of the
25 portion that was in the original written by hand. We have a problem with
1 the translation of that part. But I apologise, Your Honours. I will
2 address this issue in my redirect.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 May the document please be removed from the screen.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the document please be removed from the
7 screen. Thank you.
8 It has now been removed. May the Chamber now move into open
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. I don't think you've really answered -- you've really explained
16 your response, sir.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the question that you had asked was:
18 "Where in any of the documents that I've shown you is it
19 mentioned that they went willingly."
20 Now, and --
21 MR. SAXON: And we've seen -- [overlapping speakers]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now the exhibit has answered you.
23 MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine, so he has answered the question.
25 MR. SAXON: He has, Your Honour. I'm going to move back to
1 another question.
2 Q. I had asked you, General Gajic, wouldn't it be fair to say that
3 the VRS was dependent on the Army of Yugoslavia for its senior-level
4 security and intelligence officers, and you said no.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: So he answered your question.
6 MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour. That is correct.
7 I will move on now to a different topic. Can we show the
8 witness, please, what is P1151. We can stay in public session.
9 Actually, it's a related topic. It's still related to this issue
10 of separate and independent armies.
11 Q. We see, General, that this is a document from the Main Staff, the
12 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, personnel administration, the
13 40th Personnel Centre. It's addressed to the Main Staff of the 40th
14 Personnel Centre. And we see here it says that:
15 "The Army of Yugoslavia Military School -- Military Centre,
16 requests that Djuro Vojkovic, Captain 1st Class, return to the duty in
17 the military school centre of the VJ as soon as possible due to special
18 needs of the service."
19 And then it explains:
20 "He is currently in the 11th Corps of the 40th Personnel Centre,
21 where he was sent temporarily pursuant to Article 271 of the Law on the
22 Service in the Armed Forces."
23 And it requests that Captain Vojkovic be issued with the
24 authorisation to return to his parent unit.
25 Do you see that?
1 A. Yes, I do, sir.
2 Q. So after the Army of Yugoslavia transferred officers to the Army
3 of Serbian Krajina via the 40th Personnel Centre, they would also arrange
4 sometimes to bring them home if the needs of the Army of Yugoslavia
5 required it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the way this question
8 was posed is a rather complicated one.
9 [In English] If the Army of Yugoslavia transferred officers to
10 the Army of Serbian Krajina.
11 MR. SAXON: I can break it down.
12 Q. After VJ officers were assigned to the 40th Personnel Centre and
13 served in the army of the Serbian Republic of Krajina, the VJ also, if
14 their needs -- the VJ also would call them back if their needs depended
15 on it; right?
16 A. Sir, this would be my interpretation of this document. The
17 Captain 1st Class of the Technical Service, Vojnovic [sic], Djuro, during
18 an interview agreed voluntarily to join the Army of Serbian Krajina. At
19 that point he exited from the chain of command of the VJ and entered the
20 chain of command of the Army of Serbian Krajina where he was appointed at
21 a particular duty. And in order for his status to be regulated, his
22 record was entered into the records of the 40th Personnel Centre. Then
23 it was estimated the Army of Yugoslavia for this person who voluntarily
24 left, that he was needed because of the combat readiness of the Army of
25 Yugoslavia, and for that reason it was requested that he returned because
1 he was needed for the combat readiness which was always our primary task.
2 So this is my interpretation of this document.
3 Q. Well, all right. Let me -- let's talk about your response,
4 please, step-by-step.
5 You say that this document indicates that Captain 1st Class
6 Vojnovic [sic], during an interview agreed voluntarily to join the Army
7 of Serbian Krajina. Can you tell us where within the four corners of
8 this document we see that information?
9 A. Sir, we cannot see that first part. That is what we are lacking
10 here. We do not have any explanation of the conditions within which this
11 person left. So it was decision of the Supreme Defence Council, and they
12 were orders of the president of the FRY and Chief of the General Staff to
13 form the personnel centres, and pursuant to all these decisions the
14 officers could be sent to the Army of Republika Srpska and
15 Serbian Krajina only voluntarily, only following an interview, and only
16 if they signed a statement to the effect that they went there
17 voluntarily. This is what we can't see here, but I know that these
18 orders were in place, that these decisions were in place, and this is why
19 I conclude that the same procedure was undertaken for Mr. Vojnovic [sic],
20 and I can only assume that he was also born in the territory of Croatia.
21 Q. All right. Let's take this a little bit more slowly, please.
22 If I understand your response, not just to my last question but
23 to the question before that, you said that it was requested that
24 Captain Vojnovic [sic] be returned because he was needed for the combat
25 readiness, "which was always our primary task."
1 So the point being Captain Vojnovic [sic] was needed for the
2 readiness of the VJ. Is that what was happening here?
3 A. Sir, it is said here that he had to report to the duty at the
4 centre of military schools of the Army of Yugoslavia. So this was the
5 educational institution, and he was probably needed there. I do not know
6 what his speciality was. I can't read that anywhere in this document.
7 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness P2598, please.
8 Q. We're going to -- we're not going to focus on Captain Vojnovic
9 [sic] any more.
10 You'll see, General Gajic, this is an order of the chief of the
11 personnel administration of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia,
12 dated 17 June, 1994.
13 MR. SAXON: Can we scroll up in the English, please. Scroll up
14 in the English, please. Thank you.
15 Q. We see at the top, it says: "Order number 5-193." Do you see
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. All right. And the first page tells us that:
19 "Pursuant to item 7, subparagraph 4 and 5," et cetera, "... on
20 determining authorities and on responsibilities of commanding officers in
21 solving relations in the service of the Army of Yugoslavia ..."
22 We see a number of people is appointed as per peacetime
24 MR. SAXON: And can we please go to page 9 in the English version
25 and page 8 in the B/C/S version. And if we could actually focus on the
1 bottom of the page, please. Bottom of the page in English.
2 Q. And if you take a look, General, at item 13. Above that we see
3 the heading, "To 1st Army ... operations group 'Drina.'"
4 And below that, number 13, we see:
5 "Tihomir Babic, son of Zivko, Infantry Captain 1st Class ... to
6 the Loznica Garrison." Dated 17 June, 1994.
7 And then it says:
8 "Now: Duty post at the 30th Personnel Centre of the Yugoslav
9 Army General Staff ..."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes, I do, sir.
12 Q. Now -- okay.
13 MR. SAXON: Can we go to the next page in English, please. And
14 if we could focus on the top of the page in English.
15 Q. And, General, we're looking at a line that begins with,
16 "Responsible commanding officer." Do you have that in your page in the
17 bottom? It says --
18 A. Yes, do, sir.
19 Q. It says:
20 "Responsible commanding officer will appoint the named person
21 immediately. Upon receipt of the document on appointment, he shall be
22 immediately released from duty as per peacetime and sent to the new
24 MR. SAXON: Now, can we please leave this document, and can we
25 show the witness Exhibit P1856.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but --
2 MR. SAXON: I needed to show him this document as an introduction
3 to the document that's coming, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. SAXON:
6 Q. General Gajic, this document is from the Main Staff of the Army
7 of the Republika Srpska, Sector for Organisation, Mobilisation and
8 Personnel. It's dated 14th of August, 1994. Do you see that?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. It says: "Tihomir Babic, Captain 1st Class."
11 Then it says:
12 "Execution of an order regarding transfer. To the command of the
13 Drina Corps."
14 It says:
15 "Further to an order number 5-193, dated 17 June 1994," which was
16 the order that we just saw, P1151 -- excuse me, P2598.
17 It says further to that order:
18 "Tihomir Babic, Infantry Captain 1st Class, is transferred from
19 the 30th Personnel Centre to the VJ unit."
20 And then it says:
21 "The aforementioned shall be forthwith discharged from his
22 present unit and dispatched into transfer."
23 Have you been following me?
24 A. Yes, all the time.
25 Q. Now, this document that we're looking at now, this execution of
1 an order regarding transfer, it's issued by the Main Staff of the Army of
2 Republika Srpska; right?
3 A. Yes. This is what is written at the top of the document, "Main
4 Staff, Army of the Republika Srpska, Sector for Organisation,
5 Mobilisation, Personnel."
6 Q. All right. Please help us with this: If the VJ and the VRS were
7 two separate and independent armies, how is it that an officer in the VRS
8 Main Staff had the power to execute an order to transfer Captain Babic
9 from a VJ General Staff unit to another VJ army unit?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no objections regarding this
12 question, but I would kindly ask the interpreters to repeat their
13 interpretation into Serbian of the question by Mr. Saxon. The way it has
14 been interpreted, I believe it might cause some confusion.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Interpreters, will you please repeat the
16 interpretation to the witness.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, we have exactly the reverse
18 here of what we had previously. We have Babic Tihomir, son of Zivko, an
19 officer, who was sent on a voluntary basis to the VRS, meaning he was now
20 outside the chain of command of the VJ. He was appointed not to the
21 Main Staff of the VRS but, rather, to the Hercegovina Corps. On the
22 left-hand side, towards the bottom of the document, you will find the
23 signature of Assistant Commander Major General Mico Grubor.
24 It is very likely, although we have no -- none of the previous
25 documents which I suppose should exist, that the army had the need for
1 Babic Tihomir, son of Zivko, to be returned to the VJ and appointed to
2 the Loznica unit with the VJ. Most probably there had been a request by
3 the VJ for that officer to be relieved of his duties with the VRS. He
4 was now outside the chain of command of the VRS. And then through the
5 30th Personnel Centre, he was taken off the file in terms of social
6 benefits and his status there and was now back within the chain of
7 command of the VJ. An order is here issued for his appointment to the
9 That is my understanding, and I believe my interpretation is
11 MR. SAXON:
12 Q. The thing is, General, that you haven't answered my question.
13 We've reviewed the documents. We know what the documents say. But my
14 question -- I didn't ask you to tell us what the documents say.
15 Let me lay out the situation here for you. We saw Exhibit P2598
16 which was the document bearing order number 5-193. That contained the
17 order for Captain Tihomir Babic to be transferred from the 30th Personnel
18 Centre of the General Staff of the VJ to a position in the 1st Army. And
19 now on our screen we see P1856, which is a document issued by a member of
20 the VRS entitled, "Execution of an order regarding transfer," regarding
21 Captain Babic. And I'll repeat my question.
22 You told us very emphatically yesterday that the VRS -- well,
23 that the VRS, the SVK, and the VJ were three separate and independent
24 armies. So my question is: If the VJ and the VRS were two separate and
25 independent armies, how is it that an officer in the VRS had the power to
1 execute an order to transfer Captain Babic from a unit of the VJ General
2 Staff to another unit of the VJ? Help us understand this, please.
3 A. Sir, I answered this question to the best of my ability. I am
4 not a personnel officer. I'm no professional in that field. I stand by
5 my previous answers, which doesn't mean you may not come across better
6 qualified individuals to study this particular issue. I know what I
7 know, and I have said as much.
8 Q. You see, the difficulty I have with that response, General Gajic,
9 is that you've made some very emphatic propositions about
10 personnel-related matters today in response to my question about what
11 it -- what the 30th Personnel Centre was, about how persons came to
12 become members of the Army of Republika Srpska or the Army of Republika
13 Srpska Krajina. So it's difficult for me, then, to understand your last
14 response, which now you're saying you don't know too much about
15 personnel-related matters.
16 A. Sir, I'm afraid you didn't understand. I answered based on the
17 decisions and orders regulating the issue in the spirit of the law. If I
18 have failed to meet your expectations, I can only say that I'm sorry, but
19 I am unable to offer any other answer. I stand by my answer. My answer
20 is based on decisions and orders.
21 I did not deal with these issues. You're asking me about
22 personnel-related matters here. You have shown me some of these forms
23 and documents, that there were things there that I simply don't
24 understand. I am not privy to the technicalities, and they're very hard
25 for me to decipher. You asked me to explain; I have to say I did my best
1 to help you along with this, but I can't be expected to say something I
2 simply don't know. It wouldn't be fair.
3 Q. I certainly accept that, General. Would it be fair then to say
4 that you weren't privy to all the technicalities regarding whether these
5 were three separate and independent armies or not? Is that fair?
6 A. As far as that is concerned, whether these were, in fact, three
7 independent and separate armies, I have to be categorical about that.
8 They were.
9 Q. But you weren't privy to all of the technicalities that might
10 have -- that might shed some light on this particular topic; is that
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think Mr. Saxon is very close to
14 speculation or asking the witness to speculate with this question.
15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm asking a factual question. I'm
16 testing the evidence of this witness. I'm following up one of his
17 questions with a question of my own. I don't think that there's anything
18 speculative about my question.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
20 MR. SAXON:
21 Q. Do you want me to repeat my question, General Gajic?
22 A. Yes, please.
23 Q. You're categorical about the in fact these were three independent
24 and separate armies, and my question for you is: You weren't privy to
25 all of the technicalities - that was the term you used - that might shed
1 some light on this particular topic; correct?
2 A. Sir, I explained everything I could.
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm about to move to another topic. I
4 see it's 5 to 7.00. Can we pause at this time, or do you want me to
5 start another topic?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are in your hands, Mr. Saxon. If you want us
7 to pause, we shall pause. I don't know how long the next topic is going
8 to take. You know better.
9 MR. SAXON: It will take a while, Your Honour, so if we could
10 pause, I would be grateful.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a technical issue to raise
14 before we break for the day. We sit in the morning tomorrow. Could I
15 please be given an indication on the length of the remaining cross by
16 Mr. Saxon? I have an idea about my own re-examination. I am asking this
17 in view of the next witness who is lined up, if there is too little time
18 left for the next witness, and I am also in charge of examining the next
19 witness. I'm not sure about Mr. Saxon's position regarding that.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, are you able to help your colleague?
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this point I can say I believe I will
22 take at least one session.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does that help you, Mr. Lukic?
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will have at least a session for my
25 re-examination. Therefore, if there is still some daylight after that,
1 as they say, I will try to see what the Chamber's position is in terms of
2 maybe not calling the next witness if there's too little time.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can the Chamber hear you at the time, sir? Let's
4 cross the bridge when we get to it.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No problem, Your Honour. I was just
6 wondering whether I should bring the witness into the building and keep
7 him waiting here, but we can, as you said, cross that bridge when we come
8 to it.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: From what both of you have said, it looks like we
10 will use two sessions tomorrow. Mr. Saxon will take at least a session.
11 You will take perhaps another session to re-examine. I don't know
12 whether there are questions from the Bench which might take whatever time
13 they take, and then questions by the parties after the questions by the
14 Bench. So it's very difficult for me to come to your rescue, sir.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll see how things pan out. We'll
16 be ready if you give us the go-ahead, but we'll wait up.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
18 Sir, unfortunately, we are not done with you. You will still
19 have to come back tomorrow, but tomorrow we start early in the morning,
20 not in the afternoon. We start at 9.00 in Courtroom III.
21 Once again I remind you that you may not discuss the case with
22 anybody, and in particular not with your -- the counsel for --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 The matter stands adjourned until tomorrow at 9.00 in
1 Courtroom III. Court adjourned.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day
4 of March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.