Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10847

 1                           Thursday, 11 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Could you please call the case, Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

11     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

13     the day starting with the Prosecution, please.

14             MR. SAXON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon,

15     Bronagh McKenna, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much Mr. Saxon.

17             Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

19     afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic will be

20     defended today by Mr. Novak Lukic and Mr. Boris Zorko.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.

22                           WITNESS:  BRANKO GAJIC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, Mr. Gajic.  Just to remind you

25     that you're still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of


Page 10848

 1     your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

 2     truth.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I

 4     understand that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             Mr. Lukic.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:  [Continued]

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, good afternoon once again.

 9        A.   Good afternoon.

10        Q.   We shall continue where we stopped yesterday.  You might remember

11     that at the end of the day of yesterday we spoke about some of your

12     colleagues who originated from the territories where the war was waged.

13     You mentioned some names.  You mentioned your colleague from the security

14     administration, Mr. Svilar.  You told us when he retired.  Do you know

15     whether since -- whether between 2003 and the day of his retirement he

16     was promoted?

17        A.   Mr. Lukic, yes, he was, from the rank of lieutenant-colonel to

18     the rank of colonel.

19        Q.   I will continue with this subject.  So the relationships between

20     the three armies, and could we please focus on the security-related

21     issues, because this is exactly why you are here as a witness.

22             Yesterday, you told us -- this is on page 79 of our working

23     transcript.  I asked you about the contacts, and you told us that these

24     were ad hoc contacts.  Do you remember that?

25        A.   Yes, I do.


Page 10849

 1        Q.   As the institution, the security administration, did you request

 2     from the security organs of the Army of Krajina and security organs of

 3     the Army of Republika Srpska to send any reports to you?

 4        A.   Mr. Lukic, we didn't.

 5        Q.   Did you request from them to provide specific information on some

 6     specific events or incidents to provide some specific facts?

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, they were entirely independent in making any decisions

 8     as to what they would report to us in our security administration.

 9        Q.   Still, you didn't answer my question.  Do you remember whether on

10     any occasion you requested from them to provide any specific information?

11        A.   As far as I can remember, no.

12        Q.   Do you remember whether you requested from the security organs of

13     the Serbian Army of Krajina and the security organs of the Army of

14     Republika Srpska to come to any meetings at the security administration?

15        A.   Mr. Lukic, no.

16        Q.   I have yet another question which is related to the general tasks

17     and responsibilities of the security administration that we discussed

18     yesterday, but we did not raise this issue yesterday.

19             Was the security administration tactically responsible for

20     certain materials, equipment of the Army of Yugoslavia?  Was there any

21     specific document regulating that responsibility?

22        A.   Mr. Lukic, the security administration was tactically responsible

23     for equipping units of military police with special equipment, and it was

24     also tactically responsible for equipping security organs with material

25     and technical equipment, as we called it.


Page 10850

 1        Q.   Could you give us any example for the sake of Their Honours, so

 2     possibly if you could illustrate what kind of equipment we are talking

 3     about that the security administration was responsible for.

 4        A.   Mr. Lukic, if we are talking about the equipment of the military

 5     police, we can talk about protective vests, for example, some special

 6     weapons.  So automatic weapons also.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just interrupt.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Handcuffs as well.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see the interpreter is struggling to keep pace.

10     Can you just slow down a little bit, both of you, and give each other

11     some time after speaking to allow the interpreter to interpret.  Thank

12     you.

13             Carry on, Mr. Gajic.  What else?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15             So this was related to the equipment of the military police.  If

16     we are talking about the equipment for the security organs, then these

17     were different devices for intercepting telephone conversations or

18     surveillance, also devices for searching apartments and so on.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask.  At page 3 -- I beg your

20     pardon.  Yes.  At page 4, line 3, you also mentioned automatic weapons.

21     What kind of automatic weapons are these?  What are these weapons?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are talking about

23     handguns, pistols, or rifles which had snipers or silencers, and they

24     were used for any -- any conflicts with terrorists.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.


Page 10851

 1             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Gajic, do you know whether the security administration as a

 4     body that was technically responsible sent any -- or received, rather,

 5     any requests from these two armies for the equipment, the weapons of the

 6     kind that you just described, and whether the security administration

 7     responded to such requests?

 8        A.   Mr. Lukic, as far as I remember, there was only one request which

 9     came from the Serbian Army of Krajina for a certain quantity of such

10     special equipment, and they provided a list of desired equipment.  It

11     came to us through the General Staff, and we were asked to respond.  As

12     far as I remember, there was also a note of the Chief of the

13     General Staff who said, if we can, to provide some of this equipment but

14     without endangering the situation of our military police, and we answered

15     that we did not have any equipment that we could provide them with

16     because we did not even have sufficient equipment for our own units.  We

17     only had some smoke boxes that we could provide to them.

18        Q.   Who was responsible in the security administration to respond on

19     behalf of the security administration as to whether you can provide them

20     with the desired equipment or not?

21        A.   This was the chief of the security administration, and when we

22     are talking about the military police units, he responded following a

23     proposal that he received from the chief of the military police

24     department.

25        Q.   Yesterday when I asked about the names in the security bodies of


Page 10852

 1     these two armies, you mentioned some of the names.  So now I have a few

 2     questions related to the security officers from the Army of Republika

 3     Srpska.  You mentioned three names, Tolimir, Salapura, and Beara.  Do you

 4     remember saying that?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   During the war did you see any of those three individuals and

 7     where?

 8        A.   Mr. Lukic, I saw all of them occasionally when they came to

 9     Belgrade.  They would visit their families, because the families of all

10     three of them lived in Belgrade.  So on those occasions they would also

11     come to the security administration.

12        Q.   So to make it more precise, you saw them on the premises of the

13     security administration.

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   When they came to the security administration, were their visits

16     pre-arranged?  Were they announced?  Did you know they would come?

17        A.   Mr. Lukic, in case of General Tolimir, as a rule he never

18     announced his visit.  Captain Beara occasionally announced that he would

19     come, and Colonel Salapura, given that he was chief of the military

20     intelligence administration, as far as I remember, he only came once to

21     my office.

22        Q.   You know which period we are interested in, so after you came

23     back to the security administration in 1994.  So when you say

24     "occasionally," what do you mean more specifically?  Was it once in a

25     month, once in a week, or three times a week?  So in the period between


Page 10853

 1     1994 and the end of December 1995 when the war ended.

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, when I said "occasionally," this means that they would

 3     come once every three to five months.

 4        Q.   When they came to you, for example, Mr. Beara, did you ask any

 5     information from him?  Did you request any information in writing or oral

 6     reports?  So what was that discussion all about that you had with him?

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, when Mr. Beara, who was chief of the security

 8     administration of the Army of Republika Srpska, when he came, he would

 9     provide us with an oral description or his estimate of the security

10     situation in Republika Srpska, and he would generally speak about combat

11     operations, and what we were particularly interested in were any

12     implications that this could have for the security of the Federal

13     Republic of Yugoslavia and our army, because this was our fundamental

14     task as I explained yesterday.

15        Q.   Could you give us an example?  So in the entire territory where

16     the war was waged, what was it that you were interested in?  What was it

17     that could have had any implications for the Army of Yugoslavia?

18        A.   Mr. Lukic, these were combat operations that took place closer to

19     our border.  So it was possible for certain armed groups to cross the

20     border whether illegally or in any other way and thus come to the

21     territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Furthermore, we were

22     interested in learning about paramilitary units that were present in that

23     territory because these also involved citizens of the Federal Republic of

24     Yugoslavia, and this is what we were interested in, to learn about them

25     if they had such information, because such citizens were armed, and


Page 10854

 1     therefore they also represented a threat for the Federal Republic of

 2     Yugoslavia.  And obviously we were also interested in smuggling,

 3     particularly smuggling of arms and military equipment.

 4             Just -- let me just provide you with one example.  At that time,

 5     a single bullet for a Kalashnikov rifle was worth $3.00 on the black

 6     market, and obviously tens of millions of such bullets of different

 7     calibres were smuggled.

 8        Q.   Did the security administration of the Army of Yugoslavia have

 9     any of its people, so to say, or their informers in the Army of Republika

10     Srpska and the Army of Serbian Krajina?  So regardless of the official

11     security organs.

12        A.   Mr. Lukic, no, we did not, because we thought that the

13     information we received from the official organs were sufficient for us.

14     And we also had some operational sources of our own which we inherited

15     from the former JNA, and they were situated in the territory of Croatia

16     or Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17        Q.   Did the security administration have the right to set up its own

18     operation centres or forward the posts in third countries, outposts in

19     third countries?

20        A.   It wasn't the security administration; it was the military

21     intelligence administration of the General Staff of the VJ that had the

22     right to do that.

23        Q.   Can you please explain for the benefit of the Chamber what the

24     powers are of the intelligence administration in relation to third

25     countries?


Page 10855

 1        A.   Mr. Lukic, the intelligence administration can set up outposts in

 2     third countries abroad based on assessments or perceived needs.  It can

 3     set up one or more intelligence centres.  Such an intelligence centre

 4     would normally have several people working there with a back-up unit.

 5     There would be chiefs there and a number of operatives and logisticians.

 6     This is not a public installation.  Rather, it is a covert one.  They use

 7     operative communication lines, agents, and intelligence technology in

 8     order to gather such intelligence as I explained yesterday.

 9        Q.   What about the army of whichever country the intelligence centre

10     happens to be based in, are they normally aware of any exchange of

11     information going on in that way?

12        A.   No.  Normally that is not the case.  These are normally covert

13     operations, and the country normally doesn't know.  The building itself

14     may be camouflaged or disguised in some way.  It may, for example, bear

15     the name of a -- of a nonexistent company, whereas in fact it is an

16     intelligence centre.

17        Q.   We know that you were educated in Germany as well.  Setting up of

18     intelligence centres such as this, is that something that is an

19     established practice in other armies across the world?

20        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic, that is definitely the case.

21        Q.   What does it mean to process a person in operative sense?  What

22     is the operative processing of a person?

23        A.   Mr. Lukic, operative processing is normally undertaken in

24     relation to persons already suspected of engaging in some sort of

25     activity, but it must be a well-founded suspicion, not just any kind of


Page 10856

 1     suspicion.  A well-founded suspicion means normally that there is already

 2     evidence available showing that this person is involved in some sort of

 3     illegal activity.  It then becomes necessary to take certain peculiar

 4     steps and deploy peculiar technical means with the objective of proving

 5     that this person is indeed involved in some form of illegal activity, and

 6     then one must apply this operative processing at the proposal of the

 7     chief of security of the General Staff of the VJ and the decision is

 8     approved by the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ.

 9        Q.   When you say "unlawful activity" or "unauthorised activity," what

10     sort of activity would you as the security administration be interested

11     in or be looking into?  We did speak about that yesterday, but could you

12     just run it past us again, please.

13        A.   Mr. Lukic, let me give you specific example.  You have one or

14     more persons secretly organising themselves in order to carry out a

15     terrorist attack against a military facility or a member of the VJ, or,

16     for example, a group of persons are secretly organising themselves in

17     order to conduct espionage in order to obtain some secret documents such

18     as state secrets concerning the use and deployment of the VJ, cases such

19     as these.

20        Q.   General Gajic, do you know that security bodies or of the

21     security administration at any point in time ever asked anyone from the

22     VRS or the SVK to process any particular person in this way or to make a

23     person the subject of their investigations?

24        A.   No, Mr. Lukic.  No such thing can be done without prior approval

25     from the chief of security of the security administration.


Page 10857

 1        Q.   Lines 18 --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 3             MR. SAXON:  It appears that the witness has not answered the

 4     question of Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's fine.  I will repeat that, the

 6     correction, though.  Just to be perfectly specific, page 10, line 18,

 7     there is a blank there.  I said the VRS.

 8        Q.   General, it's perfectly simple.  Please answer my question, yes

 9     or no.  Do you know if at any point in time anyone from the VJ asked

10     anyone from the VRS or the SVK to subject a person to this sort of

11     operative processing?

12        A.   No, Mr. Lukic, no one ever did.

13        Q.   Were you aware that anyone from the VRS or the SVK ever subjected

14     a person to this kind of operative processing who belonged to the VJ?

15     Did anyone ever approach you for approval of about anything like that?

16        A.   No, Mr. Lukic, not as far as I know.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I'm not quite sure, because I don't

18     understand B/C/S, and this is happening a second time.  The questioning

19     in English at page 11, line 9, says:  "Were you aware that ..."

20             Also, at page 10, line 16:  "Do you know that ..."

21             I don't know what the question was, but a reading of the sentence

22     where you said, "Do you know that," the impression given to the reader is

23     that you, the questioner, know that that happened, but you just want to

24     know whether the witness knew if it did happen, and I don't want to

25     suggest how the question should be asked, but -- I just want to


Page 10858

 1     understand that that's the question --

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, Your Honour.  I

 3     understand your point.  I understand fully.  I fully understand what --

 4     the question was interpreted properly, but it might give rise to some

 5     misunderstanding.

 6        Q.   Both questions that I asked you, sir, the first question was

 7     this:  Were you personally aware of any instance at any point in time

 8     where anyone at all from the VRS or the SVK subjected a person from the

 9     VJ to operative processing?

10        A.   Mr. Lukic, no, I'm not aware of that.

11        Q.   Do you know if the VJ at any point required such --

12             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Lukic please

13     repeat that question.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please repeat your question, Mr. Lukic.  The

15     interpreters didn't hear you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Sir, are you aware, General Gajic, whether anyone from the VJ at

18     any point in time requested the security officers of the VRS or the SVK

19     to conduct any operative processing like that?

20        A.   No, Mr. Lukic, I'm not aware of that.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, does that make it more

22     intelligible?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the President, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Yes, Mr. Lukic.


Page 10859

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Sir, you mentioned yesterday who the officers were of that body

 3     in the SVK, and you mentioned Rade Raseta.  Did you at any time during

 4     the war actually see Mr. Raseta?  Under what conditions, circumstances,

 5     and when?

 6        A.   No.  At the time when I was transferred from the 1st army back to

 7     the security administration which was in early April 1994 and then all

 8     the way up until the end of the war, as far as I remember, I never saw

 9     Colonel Raseta.

10        Q.   Did you perhaps hear whether he came to the security

11     administration in order to meet anyone there?  What might have been the

12     reasons?  Do you have any information about that?

13        A.   Mr. Lukic, I do know that Colonel Raseta came to the security

14     administration.  I can't tell you exactly how many times, whether twice,

15     perhaps three times.  He would normally see the chief of the security

16     administration, and General Dimitrijevic was the person who introduced me

17     to him.

18        Q.   General Dimitrijevic introduced you to him.  But was he there

19     because General Dimitrijevic invited him, or was there perhaps a

20     different reason?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

22             MR. SAXON:  Well, the way the question is posed, it seems to call

23     for speculation.  The proper question, seems to me, was whether this

24     witness knows why Mr. Raseta was there.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I asked a very specific question.


Page 10860

 1     Was he there because he was invited or not?  I think that's probably the

 2     first thing that needs clarifying, and that's what I'm trying to do.  Was

 3     it just an ad hoc thing, or was it actually at someone's request?

 4             And then my next question was going to be, does the witness know

 5     what the reason was?  I don't think that is -- I mean, speculation in any

 6     shape or form.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.  However, I want to say to

 8     you if he answers "no" to your question as it stands, I don't know why

 9     you would have to ask him the reason, because then he wouldn't -- but

10     anyway, carry on.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Very briefly, General Gajic, you knew that Raseta was there to

13     see him.  Did General Dimitrijevic ever tell you whether there was a

14     reason for him coming, or an invitation or anything else?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  One question at a time, Mr. Lukic.  One question

16     at a time, not any reason or an invitation or anything else.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Did General Dimitrijevic tell you how Raseta came to be there?

19        A.   No, Mr. Lukic, he never explained anything.

20        Q.   Did General Dimitrijevic tell you whether he had requested any

21     sort of report from Raseta?  What were the facts they discussed,

22     generally speaking?

23        A.   Mr. Lukic, as for your first question, the answer is no.  As for

24     your second question, General Dimitrijevic informed me they talked about

25     all the same subjects and in much the same way as previously with the


Page 10861

 1     security organs from the VRS, except this was now in relation to the

 2     Serbian Republic of Krajina.

 3        Q.   OTP Exhibit P1926, please.

 4             [In English] This is P Exhibit 1926.

 5             [Interpretation] You mentioned Colonel Smiljanic as well, did you

 6     not, as being with the security of the SVK?  I showed you this document

 7     during proofing.  Can we please go straight to page 2 of this document.

 8             Could you please tell me what this is.  What sort of a document

 9     is this?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we zoom into these documents, please.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, this is called

12     information.  It's a kind of document envisaged in an internal rule

13     governing the work of the security organs.  It's called "Instructions on

14     documentation and records."  So the purpose of a document like this is

15     simply to inform.

16        Q.   Look at the date, the 1st of July, 1994.  It was delivered to the

17     security administration of the General Staff of the VJ and also to the

18     security organ of the Main Staff of the SVK.

19             Sir, do you remember seeing documents of this kind or indeed

20     receiving documents of this kind during the war?

21        A.   Mr. Lukic, as far as I remember, there may have been several

22     documents like this from the SVK.  As for the VRS, we received none at

23     all or none that I can remember.

24        Q.   You've read this document.  Let's not dwell on it, at least not

25     in its entirety.  If you believe it necessary, by all means go through


Page 10862

 1     the entire document, but tell me this:  If you look at this document, do

 2     you find anything of potential relevance to you as a security officer of

 3     the VJ?

 4        A.   Mr. Lukic, the document in its entirety relates to the situation

 5     in the autonomous province of Western Bosnia.  The 5th Muslim Corps was

 6     deployed there and actually conducting combat operations.  This is the

 7     border to the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  This document discusses

 8     problems that occurred during the combat operations in which they engaged

 9     the 5th Muslim Corps.  Some of the VRS forces were involved in that, and

10     all of this happened in the autonomous province of Western Bosnia.  This

11     document addresses that issue specific and also says that as far as the

12     leadership was concerned of the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia,

13     the leader at the time being Fikret Abdic, there were divisions within

14     the leadership.  Some favour the continuation of fighting against the

15     5th Muslim Corps.  There were others who favoured a cessation to these

16     hostilities and proposed that a part of the army [as interpreted] get

17     directly involved in fighting the 5th Muslim Corps.

18        Q.   Is any of the information included in this document of any

19     relevance to the security organs of the VJ?

20        A.   Mr. Lukic, it was relevant since it potentially had a direct

21     bearing on the Republic of Serbian Krajina, especially the Knin area.

22     This was important terms of our assessments both in the level of the

23     General Staff and also because we had other information indicating that

24     Croatia was readying for offensive operations in co-operation with the

25     Muslim forces in this very area.


Page 10863

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On page 16, line 6, the witness said

 2     Serbian Army of Krajina and not just part of the army.

 3             All right.  If we could now see another of the Prosecution's

 4     evidence or exhibits.  This is P2334.

 5        Q.   This is a document of the General -- or, rather, Main Staff of

 6     the Serbian Army of Krajina, of the security department, of the 2nd of

 7     May, 1995, and it is sent to the security administration of the

 8     General Staff, signed by Colonel Raseta, who was in charge of the

 9     security.

10             Did you see this document before, General?

11        A.   Mr. Lukic, yes, I did.

12        Q.   Do you remember this report from the times when it was written,

13     or do you only remember it from the time when I showed it to you?  So can

14     you remember whether you knew about this document earlier on?

15        A.   Mr. Lukic, to be quite honest, I recall when you showed me this

16     document, but I did recognise its contents.

17        Q.   Just to make things clear, the contents of this document are

18     related to the time of the Operation Flash, the attack against the

19     Serbian Republic of Krajina.  Could we please turn to page 3.

20             The document is rather self-evident --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While we're turning to page 3, Mr. Gajic, can you

22     remember when you first saw this document ever?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this document for the first

24     time when it arrived to my administration, as far as I can recall.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.


Page 10864

 1             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Here on page 3, which we can see now on the screen, we can see

 4     the stamp proving the reception.  Is this the date when the document

 5     arrived to your administration, the 2nd of May?

 6        A.   Mr. Lukic, yes.

 7        Q.   So the very day it was written it was also logged in your

 8     administration.  In this document there is mention of rocket attacks

 9     against Zagreb, the situation in Western Slavonia, and I am interested in

10     what is written on page 3.  Here we can see that discussions are

11     mentioned among the leaders of the Republic of Srpska Krajina.  Was this

12     information in any way relevant for the security of the Army of

13     Yugoslavia?

14        A.   Mr. Lukic, this information was not only relevant for the Army of

15     Yugoslavia, as you said, and its security, in my mind it was very

16     relevant for the leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and

17     their estimates and their decisions, because on this page 3 that you have

18     now -- now shown me, the contents of what is written here have to do with

19     the meeting of the Supreme Defence Council of the Republic of Serbian

20     Krajina, and we can see that there was very clear division between the

21     leaders.  In one group we had the president, Milan Martic, and chief of

22     Main Staff of the Army of Serbian Krajina, General Celeketic, and some

23     others, and they were in favour of the continuation of the war.  And

24     there was another fraction which was in favour of negotiations and a

25     peaceful solution.


Page 10865

 1             Why am I saying that this was very relevant not only for the army

 2     but also for the leadership of the state?  Because at that time the

 3     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, our military and political leadership,

 4     were fully in favour of peace initiatives and the plan of the

 5     Contact Group as well as some other plans which aimed at resolving the

 6     problems between Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Croatia in peaceful

 7     way.  So this was something that actually was a kind of provocation for

 8     those efforts.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Could we please now look at another document, P2336.

10     P2336.

11             Now, this document was again signed by Colonel Raseta on the 26th

12     of May, 1995, and it was sent to the commander of the Serbian Army of

13     Krajina.  I think it's self-evident, so I will not ask much about this

14     report, but my question is, did you receive in the security

15     administration the reports of this kind compiled by Colonel Raseta?

16        A.   Mr. Lukic, no, because it is clearly stated here who was the

17     addressee of this report, and it is specified very clearly.

18        Q.   Thank you.  The next document I would like to show is yet another

19     OTP exhibit, P1018.  We will see yet another report by Colonel Raseta,

20     dated 3rd of August, 1995, and addressed to the security administration

21     of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, or specifically to

22     General Dimitrijevic personally.

23             You can see it on the screen, but I can see that you've found it

24     in your folder as well.

25             General, this document, did you see it before?  If so, when?  Do


Page 10866

 1     you remember this report?

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, to be quite honest, when you showed me this document,

 3     then I recalled it.  Obviously one can't remember all the details, but

 4     when I saw the contents, I recalled that report.

 5        Q.   Given the date, which period does this report refer to?  So which

 6     events does it refer to?

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, the date is August the 3rd, 1995.  So this was two

 8     days before the Croatian Operation Storm against the Knin area.

 9        Q.   If we could now move to page 4.  So this is the last page both in

10     the English and B/C/S.  I apologise.  We seem to need the previous page

11     in English.

12             What is written here under item 3?  It says:  "The situation on

13     the territory."  Without reading this out, I would like to know if what

14     is written here was in any way relevant for the security of the Federal

15     Republic of Yugoslavia.

16        A.   Mr. Lukic, my answer is yes, and I can also tell you why.  In the

17     second paragraph of item 3, we can see that the president of the

18     government of the Republic of Srpska Krajina, Milan Babic, invited

19     ministers to flee from Knin, so to abandon the people and abandon the

20     army, to leave them there.  And in the previous paragraph we can see that

21     among the population in the Republic of Serbian Krajina there was panic,

22     possibly also caused by the Operation Flash which took place in May, and

23     that the population was accusing the leadership of the Republic of

24     Serbian Krajina for bringing about such a difficult situation.  And

25     obviously this was very significant, not only for the military


Page 10867

 1     leadership, but also for the political leadership.  This information was

 2     needed for any decisions they might make, consider -- considering any

 3     peace plans.

 4        Q.   After the Operation Storm, were there any consequences that were

 5     relevant for the security of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 6        A.   Mr. Lukic, there were numerous consequences.  First of all, a

 7     large number of refugees, as far as I remember, more than 200.000 people

 8     came to the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and this was

 9     a large humanitarian but also security problem.  Furthermore, a large

10     number of members of the Serbian Army of Krajina and members of their

11     families were in very dire situation.

12             As regards our intelligence activities, we also felt more

13     offensive, more specific activity coming from the direction of Croatia,

14     because after that operation Tudjman was announcing another operation

15     against Eastern Slavonia, which was the zone of responsibility of the

16     11th Corps.

17        Q.   I think this was a very good example now that you mentioned

18     intelligence activities.  Why did you describe this as intelligence

19     activities rather than security activities when you mentioned Croatia?

20        A.   Because the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was a foreign country

21     and an enemy, and obviously it was the intelligence officers that were

22     most involved, but also the counter-intelligence service could collect

23     certain data, but this was not the bulk of their activities.

24        Q.   Both these reports by Colonel Raseta, one was related to the

25     Operation Flash, that one of the 2nd of May, and the other one of the 3rd


Page 10868

 1     of August was related to the imminent Operation Storm, did you know given

 2     the exceptional circumstances at the time whether your security

 3     administration requested any reports from Colonel Raseta, or were these

 4     reports sent at his own initiative?  Do you know?

 5        A.   Mr. Lukic, as far as I know, we did not request any such reports,

 6     but it was the estimate of Colonel Raseta to send them, and I can only

 7     applaud his estimates.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could we please have a look at yet another OTP's

 9     exhibit.  This was P1084.  With this we will move to some issues related

10     to another army.  I don't believe that this is a correct document, so --

11     P1084.  I apologise.  This may have been my mistake.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I gave you a wrong

13     number, and also we need to move into closed session for the next

14     document.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document --

17             [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             And what is the document?

21             MR. LUKIC:  P1854.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   This may have been marked wrongly, General, in your binder.  This

25     is a document of the security administration sent to the sector for


Page 10869

 1     security issues of the Main Staff of the VRS, signed by Captain Beara --

 2     or, rather, it was the document coming from the Main Staff's security

 3     department and sent to the security administration of the General Staff.

 4     Do you remember this document from previous times?

 5        A.   Mr. Lukic, I do.

 6        Q.   When you say you remember it, do you remember it from those days?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   On the second page we can see the stamp proving the reception of

 9     the document.  I don't believe that the date is legible, but do you

10     remember that you saw this document at approximately the time when it was

11     written in 1995?

12        A.   Mr. Lukic, yes.

13        Q.   Can you tell me, what do you know concerning the contents of this

14     document?

15        A.   Mr. Lukic, I remember this document because it was created in

16     some very specific circumstances.  It is dated 11th of August, 1995.  And

17     on the 5th of August the Croatian Army's Operation Storm was launched

18     against the Knin area of Krajina.  What preceded it was the

19     Operation Flash in May of 1995.

20             These two operations resulted in a huge number of refugees,

21     several hundreds of thousands of refugees.  And in this document we can

22     read about a very specific situation.  Actually, it is telling us that we

23     can expect a large number of refugees also from the territory of

24     Republika Srpska -- or, actually, from the territory of the municipality

25     of Drvar.  And this operation was led by the legitimate War Presidency


Page 10870

 1     which invited the population to abandon the territory of the municipality

 2     of Drvar and some other municipalities which would obviously cause yet

 3     another security problem and humanitarian problem for the Federal

 4     Republic of Yugoslavia, and it could also have very negative consequences

 5     for the Army of Republika Srpska.  Obviously, once the population leaves

 6     the territory, it is well known that the army will follow, and this is

 7     why I can remember the contents of this document.  I believe this was a

 8     very significant document both for the army and for the political

 9     leadership of our country.

10        Q.   From the time you first came to work with the security

11     administration in 1994 and all the way up until the end of 1995, do you

12     remember how many reports like this from Mr. Beara did you receive in

13     this shape or format?

14        A.   Mr. Lukic, we did not receive any of these in writing.  I can't

15     remember if there was perhaps the occasional report or not.  But during

16     those contacts and the visits by Beara, one of his subordinates, we would

17     hear oral reports like this, stories like this one, corroborating what

18     this document says.

19        Q.   Did the security administration have any information about any

20     information leaks from the VJ, information being leaked to any other

21     army?

22        A.   Mr. Lukic, the answer is yes.

23        Q.   Can we please have Defence 65 ter document 00886D.

24             [In English] 00886D.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you still want to stay in private session?


Page 10871

 1             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   This is a document by the corps commander of the special units of

 9     the VJ, Colonel Miodrag Panic.  The date is September 1995.  Can you tell

10     us what this document talks about, General?

11        A.   Mr. Lukic, this document was produced pursuant to an order from

12     the Chief of the General Staff, dated the 25th of August, 1995.  This is

13     in relation to some leaks of classified military information concerning

14     equipment, both equipment used for combat and noncombat equipment,

15     available to the VJ.  This was leaked to unauthorised officials from the

16     Republic of Serbian Krajina and the RS.  The actual information was

17     leaked by sources within the VJ.  This is a warning by the Chief of the

18     General Staff, and then the corps commander of the special units conveyed

19     this to his subordinates.  This is a warning and a ban, meaning this

20     would no longer be tolerated.

21        Q.   The first paragraph is quite specific about the fact that

22     information leaks such as this were quite typical in terms of the

23     equipment in the possession of the VJ and its material war reserves.  Why

24     was it important to keep this kind of information from the VRS or the

25     SVK?


Page 10872

 1        A.   Mr.  Lukic, there are two reasons why this would have been

 2     important.  The first reason being this information might eventually have

 3     reached foreign intelligence agencies, and then these agencies would have

 4     known whatever they needed to know about the combat capability of the VJ

 5     and its equipment and material resources.

 6             Secondly, to be quite honest, there were constant complaints from

 7     the SVK and the VRS to the tune of, You have the equipment, you have the

 8     means, and yet you're not giving us a hand.  Therefore, rumours were

 9     being spread that were simply untrue and quite biased, despite which all

10     these roomers had certain consequences that we had to deal with.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this document be received,

12     Your Honours, please.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

14     please be given an exhibit number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

16     Exhibit D267.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   General, did the security administration have any contacts with

20     any representatives of foreign armies in the FRY?  What sort of contacts?

21     Do you have any personal knowledge of anything like that?

22        A.   Mr. Lukic, a security administration had contacts with a number

23     of military diplomatic representatives of foreign countries accredited in

24     Belgrade.  Most of those representatives were from countries of the West,

25     Western countries.  Normally they would request these meetings or


Page 10873

 1     contacts.  There were also briefings organised by our administration for

 2     liaising with foreign representatives.

 3        Q.   Can you tell me specifically, if you remember, who was there, who

 4     you met.  Did you personally meet anyone?

 5        A.   Mr. Lukic, I personally did not meet anyone, not up until 1997,

 6     which was when we had some contacts with people from the American

 7     agencies.  Normally it was the chief of the security administration,

 8     General Dimitrijevic, who did have contacts.

 9        Q.   Did he pass information along to you, who he met and what they

10     talked about?  I want know about up until the end of the war, the end of

11     1995.

12        A.   Mr. Lukic, I was up to date on everything.  General Dimitrijevic

13     would tell me who he was on his way to meet.  Sometimes he wanted

14     documents prepared for him which he could then discuss with these men,

15     the representatives, and every time he was back from those meetings -- or

16     before he -- he would ever about, he would invariably inform the Chief of

17     the General Staff, he would confer with him, and often he went to see the

18     Chief of the General Staff to discuss this with him and pick topics

19     potentially to be discussed with these representatives.

20             Every time he came back, General Dimitrijevic would go to the

21     Chief of the General Staff to convey to him whatever was discussed at

22     those meetings.

23             In a very general way I, too, was informed about the subject

24     matter discussed at those meetings.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think there's an error on page 26,


Page 10874

 1     line 20.  He said sometimes he wanted information, and the reference here

 2     is to document.

 3        Q.   General, just to make sure.  I'm not sure I understood myself.

 4     Did General Dimitrijevic ask for documents to be prepared for him or just

 5     for information to be provided for those meetings?

 6        A.   Information, Mr. Lukic.

 7        Q.   What was the substance of those talks?  Did General Dimitrijevic

 8     tell you?

 9        A.   Mr. Lukic, the gist of all the talks was this:  The military and

10     diplomatic representatives, particularly of the most influential Western

11     countries, wanted to know about the views and positions of the military

12     and even State leadership vis-a-vis the peace initiatives of the

13     international community.

14             Secondly, most of those representatives were fair.  They would

15     provide their own assessments and views that were sometimes helpful to us

16     at the security administration, but also to the state leaders in their

17     work with these peace initiatives, agreeing to the Contact Group plan and

18     all the other initiatives that were in progress back then.

19        Q.   Did General Dimitrijevic ever tell you whether any crimes were

20     discussed at any of those meetings, committed by whoever?

21        A.   General Dimitrijevic never mentioned that as one of the subjects

22     being discussed.

23        Q.   Do you remember any names, what those people were called, the

24     high representatives that General Dimitrijevic met?

25        A.   Yes, I do, Mr. Lukic.  The USA representative Hutchouse [as


Page 10875

 1     interpreted], who was followed by Colonel Fischer.  Colonel Ariolf [as

 2     interpreted] on behalf of Italy, he was a military envoy.  It has been a

 3     long time.  That's as much as I can remember.

 4        Q.   Our next document -- yesterday, at the beginning we spoke about

 5     the information that you had about groups secretly arming themselves

 6     before the clashes broke out.  Did the security administration ever get

 7     any information concerning citizens of other countries who were members

 8     of the BH Army, Croatia's army, or any other army?

 9        A.   Yes, indeed, Mr. Lukic.  That was the case.

10        Q.   Can we please have Defence 65 ter 00719D.  This is a document by

11     the chef de cabinet of the General Staff of the VJ.  Dispatch on the 11th

12     of February, 1992, to the Federal Ministry of Foreign Affairs.  Can we

13     please go to page 2 of the document.

14             General, what is this?  I believe the document speaks for itself.

15     What sort of information is at stake here?

16        A.   Mr. Lukic, if you look at the heading, you see what the document

17     is about and what the information is about.  It's about the role of

18     Croatia.  As is well known at the time Croatia was already an

19     internationally recognised country.  So this discusses the role of

20     Croatia in the illegal arming and making it possible for foreign

21     mercenaries to cross its territory and use their civilian and military

22     infrastructure in order to reach Bosnia and Herzegovina by illegal

23     channels even before the clashes ever broke out in 1992 over in Bosnia

24     and Herzegovina, and even before Bosnia and Herzegovina became an

25     independent country.  Its independence was proclaimed on the 7th of


Page 10876

 1     April, 1992.  The international recognition followed.

 2             So Croatia was counteracting the resolutions of the Security

 3     Council.

 4        Q.   Why would the security administration be interested in any --

 5             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Lukic please be

 6     asked to repeat the question.  We didn't understand.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Gajic.

 8             Mr. Lukic, the interpreter didn't hear the question.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

10        Q.   Why did the security administration want to know about such

11     information as mentioned in the document?

12        A.   Mr. Lukic, we wanted to know about this type of information

13     because for the most part we are dealing here with members of the

14     Mujahedin, who posed a certain security threat to the security of the

15     FRY.  Even back then, we were facing the problem of Kosovo.  We already

16     had information at the time indicating that some of these mercenaries,

17     particularly the Mujahedin, were seeping into Kosovo across the Albanian

18     border, even as early on as 1993.  Therefore, it was particularly

19     important for us to be familiar with this type of information.

20             And if I may just add something.  It was particularly important

21     because as early on as this, we were receiving information showing that

22     in Zenica a camp had been set up for the training of these Mujahedin.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would that be an appropriate --

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we might just have a this document

25     received, please, Your Honours.


Page 10877

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 4     Exhibit D268.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  We will then be at an

 6     appropriate time.  We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.  Court

 7     adjourned.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, I will move to an entirely different subject.  We will

13     talk about the events of February 1995 [as interpreted], the events in

14     Srebrenica and Zepa.

15             Could we please see on the screen document from the 65 ter list,

16     00663D.

17             [In English] 00663D.

18             [Interpretation] Can you see it on the screen?  If not, you also

19     have it in your binder.

20             This is an information on the state of the Muslim forces in the

21     Zepa enclave, dated 14th of July, 1995, sent by the 2nd administration of

22     the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

23             Did you find this document?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   First of all, can you tell us something about the form of this


Page 10878

 1     document.  Whose document was it, and who was it sent to?

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, this is an information of the 2nd administration of

 3     the General Staff of the VJ that was sent daily, first of all to the

 4     operations centre, to the Chief of the General Staff, and then to the

 5     security administration, although I need to say that not all the

 6     documents of this kind, informations, reached the security

 7     administration.

 8        Q.   Down there we can see that this information was to be submitted

 9     to the Colonel-General Momcilo Perisic; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   In the first paragraph we can see -- I will read it out because

12     it is a short paragraph.

13             "Having taken the Srebrenica enclave, units of the VRS

14     concentrated their forces around the Zepa enclave, and on the 12th of

15     July, 1995, they issued an ultimatum to the commander of the 1st Zepa

16     Brigade ..."

17             I am particularly interested in what is written in paragraph 4,

18     where it says that one 80-man strong Muslim unit encircled a Ukrainian

19     company at 1235 hours and did not allow it to move.

20             Were you aware, General, in those days of problems in Zepa,

21     particularly in relation to the Ukrainian battalion?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   What was the source of your information?

24        A.   Mr. Lukic, it was first of all General Dimitrijevic who presented

25     this problem to me.


Page 10879

 1        Q.   What was it that General Dimitrijevic said?

 2        A.   General Dimitrijevic told me during our morning meetings that I

 3     described yesterday that General Perisic will have to go, if I remember

 4     well, he said, To Mladic, to Republika Srpska.  So I asked him why, what

 5     was the problem?  And he told me, Well, it seems that there was a serious

 6     problem regarding the Ukrainian battalion.  And he added that it seemed

 7     that the Ukrainian battalion was encircled.  And bearing in mind

 8     everything that was happening with the peace talks, this could become a

 9     serious problem that could have some unwanted consequences since these

10     were international forces.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

12     this document into evidence.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

14             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, I'm not objecting to the admission of

15     the document.  However, I do have some concerns about the quality of the

16     translation, and for that reason I would suggest perhaps this should be

17     MFI'd at this time.

18             For example, there appears to be some text in the B/C/S original

19     at the bottom which we don't find -- at least I don't find in the

20     English.  And at the same time, at the centre of the page, towards the

21     bottom of the English translation, we see, "This is a true copy of the

22     original," certified by a signature and stamped, but I don't see any such

23     markings in the original.  So I'm wondering perhaps if this could be sent

24     to CLSS for a revised translation.  If it could be MFI'd.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.


Page 10880

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no objections, Your Honour.  I

 2     agree.  We did get this officially from CLSS.  It's an official

 3     translation.  Nevertheless, if there's a need to run a check, we might as

 4     well MFI the document for our present purposes.  What Mr. Saxon just said

 5     is perfectly right.  It needs checking.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Just two questions from me before we

 7     admit it.

 8             When you introduced this topic now, you said -- and this is at

 9     page 30, line 18:  "General, I'll move to an entirely different subject."

10     I see it says difficult subject.  You said different subject.  "I will

11     move to February 1995."

12             Now, this is the only document that you have shown the witness

13     since that introduction, and I see it's July 1995.  Now, I wanted to be

14     sure with you, did you mean -- did you say February 1995?  Or did you say

15     something else, because --

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Because February 1995, the events in Srebrenica

18     and Zepa.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You have done very well to observe

20     that, Your Honour.  It must be my error or the interpreter's error.  I

21     was trying to say that I was moving on to an entirely different subject,

22     and secondly, I mentioned July 1995.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The second question is, I -- looking at this

24     document, I'm not able -- looking at the English part of translation, I'm

25     not able to determine whom it comes from.


Page 10881

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd best just ask the witness

 2     perhaps.

 3        Q.   Witness, can we see who --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And who it is going to.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [previous translation continues] ...

 6     and who it is addressed to.

 7        Q.   General, based on what the document says, who is it sending this

 8     document and who is the addressee?

 9        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Lukic, the bottom of this document states

10     2nd administration of the General Staff of the VJ on the right-hand side.

11     On the left-hand side just below the date, the 14th of July, 1995,

12     delivered to Colonel-General Momcilo Perisic.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for that, but who does it come from?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the 2nd

15     administration, the military intelligence administration.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of which army?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The VJ, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where do we see -- where do we see that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Okay.  The Judge has shown me.  Thank you

21     so much.

22             Okay.  The document is admitted into evidence.  And may it please

23     be given an exhibit number and be marked for identification.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

25     Exhibit 269, marked for identification.  Thank you.


Page 10882

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Now I would like to see another document on the screen.  This is

 3     from the 65 ter list, 00666D.  This is the information number 115 of the

 4     2nd administration of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, dated

 5     the 18th of July, 1995.  And it is mentioned here that the liaison

 6     officer of "the Ukrainian battalion in Glina approached us with a request

 7     following the capturing of a Ukrainian UNPROFOR company in Gorazde to

 8     receive three representatives of their General Staff in the Federal

 9     Republic of Yugoslavia and help them get in touch with the General Staff

10     of the Army of Republika Srpska in order to extract or liberate the

11     above-mentioned company."

12             General, do you know whether General Perisic went there in those

13     days as it was announced to you by General Dimitrijevic?  So did he go to

14     the Main Staff of the VRS and why?

15        A.   Yes, I know about that because General Dimitrijevic told me that

16     General Perisic went to Republika Srpska to try and help resolve this

17     situation.  First of all, to see for himself what this problem was all

18     about and then to try and help for this company to be de-blocked or

19     released.

20        Q.   Do you know whether the Ukrainian battalion left the territory of

21     Zepa in those days?  Do you remember?

22        A.   Mr. Lukic, I can't remember that, but I do remember that I read

23     later on in an information or another document, I can't recall precisely,

24     that that battalion was de-blocked and that they once again regained some

25     normal conditions within which they could operate.


Page 10883

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

 3     into evidence.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 7     Exhibit D270.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Did the security administration receive any information

11     concerning any events on the River Drina following the events in Zepa, so

12     anything to -- to the content that somebody swam over Drina, possibly

13     trying to flee?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   What was it that you can remember concerning this?

16        A.   On the 31st of July, we received a telegram from the 2nd Military

17     District, and this was actually from the security organ of the

18     15th Border Battalion, which reported their direct superiors, and this

19     was the security organ of the Uzice Corps, and as I said, we received

20     this from the security organ of the 2nd Army, and the Uzice Corps at the

21     time belonged to the 2nd Army.  So we received the information that a

22     certain number of members of the Muslim army swam over the Drina River

23     and thus came to the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

24        Q.   Do you know for how long a period of time this lasted and how

25     many people swam across the river?


Page 10884

 1        A.   As far as I remember, it lasted for several days, possibly 3rd

 2     and 4th of August.  And if I remember well, it was several hundreds of

 3     members of the Muslim armed forces.

 4        Q.   What happened to those people thereafter?  Do you remember?

 5        A.   Mr. Lukic, in the first information, we learned that the command

 6     immediately set up a three-member reception commission.  If I recall

 7     well, the names of the members of this commission were also included in

 8     the information received.  So they were registering all these people.

 9     Quite a few of them were in poor condition.  They caught colds or they

10     were wet, so their reception was organised.  So the security organ was

11     also engaged to make sure that nothing would happen to those people.

12        Q.   When you say the command, which command are you talking about?

13     Who organised this?

14        A.   Mr. Lukic, this was the command of the 15th Border Battalion.

15     And through the chain of command, they informed their superiors at the

16     Uzice Corps about this issue, and further on through the 2nd Army, the

17     Chief of the General Staff and the General Staff as such also received

18     this information.

19        Q.   It is perfectly clear to me, but for the record, we just have to

20     make sure we know which army we are talking about.

21        A.   I apologise, Mr. Lukic.  The Army of Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   Could we please see on the screen document from the 65 ter

23     list 01131D.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you can see how this

25     was translated by our translation service, and I need to inform you that


Page 10885

 1     we are talking about a -- a set of 12 documents, each document consisting

 2     of four or five pages of names, and the translation service thus far

 3     provided this kind of translation, and if you allow me, I will now use

 4     this document with the witness, and we will focus only on the names that

 5     are legible.

 6             If Your Honours would like us to provide the entire document,

 7     then I will request the translation service to do that, but I know that

 8     this is their usual way of doing it when it is difficult to read the

 9     names.  So I would just like to go through some of the items with the

10     witness and I will see what the reaction will be of Your Honours and my

11     learned colleague from the Prosecution.  So all I can tell you now is

12     that we are talking about 12 documents, each of them containing four or

13     five pages, and this is the kind of information contained in these

14     documents.  But if you allow me, would I like first of all to ask the

15     witness certain questions and possibly he will clarify the meaning of

16     this document.

17        Q.   What is it, sir, that we can see in front of us now?

18        A.   Mr. Lukic, this is a list of members of the Muslim armed forces

19     who, after the 31st of July, 1995, and thereafter, came to the territory

20     of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and it also contains some data.

21        Q.   Could you tell us which data were entered into this document.

22        A.   Mr. Lukic, first of all maybe I can comment on the heading.  You

23     can see "Military post number 2493," and you can see the date.  This is

24     the 1st of August.  Yes, the 1st of August.

25        Q.   Just a second, sir.  You said 1998.


Page 10886

 1        A.   No, 1995.  So this is the military post designating the 15th

 2     Border Battalion.  And here we can see a list that contains different

 3     columns.  First of all, the number, then the name, father's name, and the

 4     last name.  In the third column we can see the date of birth and the

 5     place of birth.  So the third column is divided into two.  Then the

 6     fourth column is unit that the person comes from, and the last column is

 7     their occupation.  And at the end of each list you can see that the

 8     person who compiled the list signed it.

 9        Q.   Just to clarify the numbers.  So column 5 is the membership of

10     the unit, and column 6 the occupation; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, I apologise.

12        Q.   Could we please see the last page of this document in the B/C/S,

13     and this is the portion that has been translated for Their Honours in

14     English.  Here we can see the hand-over commission and the reception or

15     admittance commission.  Here where we can see the hand-over commission,

16     the persons listed here, which institution they came from?

17        A.   Mr. Lukic, we can see that these were officers of the 15th Border

18     Battalion of the Army of Yugoslavia.  I can read their names.

19        Q.   That will not be necessary.  Can you tell us this reception

20     commission or admittance commission, which institution they came from?

21        A.   Mr. Lukic, these were representatives of the Ministry of the

22     Interior, and you can see that the commission consisted of three members

23     who acted as a commission, as a group, when they received these persons,

24     and this is why they signed this here.

25        Q.   In this column which says "Unit," we can see certain data.  Could


Page 10887

 1     you tell us members of whose army were those based on the data entered

 2     under "Unit"?

 3        A.   Mr. Lukic, we can see that these were members of the Muslim armed

 4     forces.

 5        Q.   And the last number on this list is 53.  So it says, "Concluded

 6     with number 53;" is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have another list that was

 9     typewritten which is probably legible a bit more, but now I would like to

10     tender this list, this document, into evidence.  I suggest that we do not

11     go document by document, but because they're of the same type, if my

12     learned colleague from the OTP has into objection, then I would not put

13     all of these documents before the witness, but I suggest that we tender

14     them as such.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

16             MR. SAXON:  I don't have an objection to proceeding that way.

17     However, I do have a question regarding translation and what exactly then

18     is being admitted.  Is it Mr. Lukic's proposition to tender each of these

19     lists in their entirety, because if that's the case, then I would ask

20     that we get a full English translation and that it be marked for

21     identification at this time until we get the full translations.  If he's

22     only using excerpts as an example, then would I simply like that to be

23     entered into record that that is what's -- that is the exhibit.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Given the data entered into these


Page 10888

 1     lists, that these were members of identified units, I would suggest that

 2     we translate these entire lists and that we then tender them as such or

 3     that we, rather, receive them as such, and in meantime we can MFI them.

 4             Your Honour, if you allow me, maybe I could show you another

 5     example in the meantime which is typewritten, so possibly it would be

 6     better even for people who do not understand Serbian, because you could

 7     see what kind of data are entered into those lists.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't think there's any problem with the kind of

 9     data that's entered into the list.  The problem is the one that was

10     raised by Mr. Saxon, and you seem to agree to his suggestion, that we

11     mark them for identification and we get them translated, and then we can

12     move on to the next point.  Okay?  Then the documents are admitted into

13     evidence.  May they please be given an exhibit number and be marked for

14     identification.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

16     Exhibit D271, marked for identification.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just so that we are clear, are the parties agreed,

18     in fact, that the entire 12 documents that you referred to are being so

19     admitted and they will be so translated?  Or is it just this document?

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.  I suggested -- now my case

21     manager informed me that there are 14 lists.  Could you hold on just a

22     second, please.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right.  And they under

25     14 different numbers on our 65 ter list.  So I would propose for all of


Page 10889

 1     them to now be given their MFI numbers without presenting them one by one

 2     to the witness, or possibly we can also do it outside the courtroom,

 3     whatever the secretariat believes best.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess you have no objection to that, Mr. Saxon?

 5             MR. SAXON:  No, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then we'll do it so, and can it be done

 7     outside court, and then you can move on to the next point.  Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             While we are still on this subject, could the witness please be

10     shown 65 ter 00851D.

11             The document has been translated into English in its entirety,

12     Your Honours.

13        Q.   Mr. Gajic, what does this document tell us?  Whose document is

14     it?  And can you see it?

15        A.   Yes, I can.  This is a document by the Ministry of the Interior

16     of the Republic of Serbia, specifically the Uzice Secretariat of the

17     Interior.  The date is the 3rd of August, 1995.

18        Q.   Does this document talk about the same developments that you

19     described a while ago?

20        A.   Indeed, Mr. Lukic.  This is a list of ethnic Muslims who belonged

21     to the Muslim armed forces, and that is what we have been talking about.

22        Q.   Very well.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

25     please be given an exhibit number.


Page 10890

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 2     Exhibit 272.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Could we please have 65 ter 00821D.  The date is the 8th of

 7     March, 1996.

 8             Wait a minute, sir.  We want this on our screens.  As soon as you

 9     can see it, tell us whose document it is and what it's about.

10             Who is the author of this document, General?

11        A.   This is information on the living conditions among the members of

12     the Muslim armed forces in the reception centres of Mitrovo Polje and

13     Vranicka [as interpreted] Polje.  The document was produced, as you said,

14     on the 8th of March, 1996, by the SUP of Uzice, which was under the

15     Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia.

16        Q.   There is a reference here to a total of 799 persons in

17     paragraph 1, the time period being from the 31st of July to the 25th of

18     October.

19             General, based on this report are these the same persons that you

20     mentioned a minute ago?

21        A.   Indeed, Mr. Lukic.

22        Q.   Moreover, the document states that the public was informed about

23     the active involvement of the MUP, UNHCR, and the International

24     Red Cross, members of foreign diplomatic representations came as well,

25     the embassies, and international media as well.  I'm just summing up?


Page 10891

 1     I'm trying to avoid reading the entire document.  I did show you this

 2     during proofing.

 3             Did you know at the time about what this says.  And is this

 4     really what happened?

 5        A.   Yes, I knew that at the time.

 6        Q.   Page 2, there is something that I find interesting.  If you could

 7     please comment, sir.  It's the last paragraph on that page.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next page in the English, please.

 9             Your Honours, it's the sentence at the top of the page.  Foreign

10     currency is mentioned there and an exchange office that was established.

11        Q.   Do you know whether any money was seized from those people?  Were

12     there any problems like that at all?

13        A.   No, Mr. Lukic, there were no problems like that at all.  As you

14     suggest, International Red Cross was informed immediately as well as the

15     UNHCR, and they made a great effort to put these people up.

16        Q.   What became of these persons later on, if you know, sir.

17        A.   Mr. Lukic, I know that those persons were allowed to decide for

18     themselves as to what their next destination would be upon leaving the

19     reception centres.  As far as I know, most of them headed west, most of

20     them through Hungary.  Every security measure available was taken in the

21     process.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

24     please be given an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned


Page 10892

 1     Exhibit D273.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Another document on this same topic, 65 ter 00822D.

 6             Sir, are you familiar with this document?  What can you tell us

 7     about it?

 8        A.   Indeed I am, Mr. Lukic.  The date is the 26th of October, 1995.

 9     It talks about a report produced by two forensic epidemiological teams or

10     health teams who examined all the members of the Muslim armed forces in

11     these two reception centres here.  They performed medical checks and duly

12     submitted a report about that.  They also actually signed this report

13     after they proposed certain measures.

14        Q.   There are references here to two facilities.  One of them is the

15     Vranisko [as interpreted] Polje reception centre; and the other is the

16     Mitrovo Polje reception centre.  Do you in fact know that the Muslims who

17     had swum across the Drina River in early August were in those reception

18     centres?

19        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic, I actually knew that.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

22     please be given an exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

24     Exhibit D274.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.


Page 10893

 1             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm done with this subject.

 3        Q.   General, I asked you when we discussed your CV, Where were you

 4     serving late in 1993 and early 1994?

 5        A.   I was chief of the security department of the 1st Army command in

 6     Belgrade at the time, Mr. Lukic.

 7        Q.   When did you take up that position, sir?

 8        A.   On the 1st of August, 1992.

 9        Q.   When did you go back to the security administration?

10        A.   I got a transfer back to the security administration in early

11     April 1994.

12        Q.   While you were chief of security in the 1st Army, did you ever

13     hear of the Drina plan?

14        A.   No, I didn't, Mr. Lukic.

15        Q.   When you were back to the security administration, did you

16     perhaps then hear of the Drina plan?

17        A.   Mr. Lukic, again the answer is no.

18        Q.   Could we please have P215.  Thank you.

19             You were shown this document during proofing, General.  Did you

20     ever see this document at any point in time before we commenced your

21     proofing, sir?

22        A.   No, sir, Mr. Lukic.  The first time I set eyes on this document

23     was during proofing.

24        Q.   We saw that document on the -- the remit of the security

25     administration.  We looked at all the organisational units of the


Page 10894

 1     General Staff of the VJ, and the security administration is involved in

 2     the drafting of a plan on the use of --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I'm not saying you shouldn't show the

 4     witness the document, but he said he had never heard of the Drina plan,

 5     he'd never seen the Drina plan before until you proofed him.  What can he

 6     tell us about this document?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask the witness

 8     about this.

 9        Q.   When plans such as this are produced, what is the role of the

10     security organ in that process?

11        A.   Mr. Lukic, the security administration draws up what we call an

12     attachment which is then attached to this kind of plan.  It has two

13     components.  One is an assessment, and the other is a security plan, a

14     single document with two components, hence.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   When a plan like this is drawn up at the strategic level, the

17     level of the General Staff, are there any activities by the army at lower

18     levels during the implementation?  Particularly, I have in mind the

19     security organ.

20        A.   Mr. Lukic, when a plan like this is drawn up at the strategic

21     level, meaning the General Staff of the VJ, all the subordinate strategic

22     commands, meaning the armies, must then be given other documents as well,

23     a decision and an extract from a directive such as this, which then

24     allows them to produce their own documents.  The security organ at the

25     level of an army would then use these excerpts from the security plan,


Page 10895

 1     which was produced by the General Staff, and then they would get this and

 2     produce the same kind of document at the army level.

 3        Q.   When a document like this is produced at the General Staff level,

 4     who proposes the part about the commitment of the security bodies, and

 5     who then goes on to approve it?

 6        A.   The security administration does, Mr. Lukic -- or, rather, an

 7     officer appointed by the chief of the security administration to be

 8     involved in the production of this plan, and the whole thing is approved

 9     by the person who normally approves all such documents, that being the

10     Chief of the General Staff.

11        Q.   I'm done with this document.  General, under the rules of service

12     governing the work of security bodies, was any co-operation envisaged

13     between the security organs and -- and the state security organs, and I

14     mean the MUP bodies in charge of state security?

15        A.   Mr. Lukic, in the former Yugoslavia, as we call it, there was a

16     set of instructions called "Instructions regarding mutual relations and

17     co-operation between the state security service and the security

18     administration, the General Staff of the VJ."

19             After Yugoslavia's break-up and once the new FRY was established,

20     there was no new set of instructions.  The old one applied.

21     Nevertheless, it was never really used.

22        Q.   In point of fact, throughout the period that we're talking about,

23     and I'm sure you realise by now what we're looking into, specifically

24     during the war between 1992 and 1995, what was your co-operation with the

25     State Security Service of the FRY?


Page 10896

 1        A.   To use a military term, tactical level and partially also at the

 2     operative level, it was fair and square.  We dealt with some specific

 3     issues, specific cases involving foreign agencies, terrorism, crime, and

 4     so on and so forth.  At the strategic level, the co-operation, however,

 5     was quite poor.  I shall be bold enough to add that it wasn't our fault,

 6     but, rather, that of the other side, of our counterpart.

 7        Q.   When you say the strategic level, who exactly do you mean?  And

 8     when you say your counterpart, who exactly do you mean?

 9        A.   Mr. Lukic, when I say the strategic level, I mean the security

10     administration or the heads of the State Security Service of the Republic

11     of Serbia.

12        Q.   Who was at the head of the state security of the Republic of

13     Serbia at the time?

14        A.   The head of the state security sector at the time was

15     Mr. Jovica Stanisic.

16        Q.   Did you have any sort of relationship in terms of communication

17     and co-operation with the state security bodies of Republika Srpska and

18     the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

19        A.   No, none at all.

20        Q.   Mr. Gajic, by way of a conclusion, I have only one topic left to

21     raise before I can conclude my examination.

22             During the war did you ever receive any information about crimes,

23     specifically the crimes in Srebrenica and Sarajevo through any official

24     intelligence reports?

25        A.   No, Mr. Lukic.  That was never the case.


Page 10897

 1        Q.   Did you ever receive anything from the security bodies in terms

 2     of reports talking about the crimes in Srebrenica and Sarajevo during the

 3     war?

 4        A.   Again, Mr. Lukic, the answer is no.

 5        Q.   Could we please have 65 ter 01091D.  This is a report of the

 6     Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia, dated 21st of July, 1997,

 7     sent to the National Council for co-operation with the ICTY.  You can see

 8     in the heading the basis for this request was the defence of

 9     Mr. Momcilo Perisic.

10             Under 1, we can see that the military security and military

11     intelligence agencies of the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of

12     Serbia are mentioned.  Could you tell us, these bodies, which other

13     bodies did they replace?

14        A.   The military security agency replaced the security administration

15     of the -- of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia; and the

16     military intelligence agency replaced the military intelligence

17     administration of the General Staff.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please receive

19     an exhibit number for this document.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

21     please be given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

23     Exhibit D275.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] With this I have completed my


Page 10898

 1     examination, Mr. Gajic.  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at all.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

 4             Mr. Saxon.

 5             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  May I just have a moment to

 6     get myself organised?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By all means, Mr. Saxon.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, General Gajic.  My name is Dan Saxon, and I'm

10     representing the Prosecution today.

11        A.   Good afternoon, sir.

12        Q.   I have some questions for you, if I can.  If I may, maybe I'll

13     just start close to where Mr. Lukic left off.  He showed you a plan that

14     has been referred to as the Drina plan.  It was Prosecution Exhibit P215.

15     It's actually -- the full title is "The plan Drina for the use of the

16     Yugoslav Army, Army of Republika Srpska, and the Serb Army of Krajina."

17     And I believe you testified a few minutes ago that you had never heard of

18     this plan, although you also explained the responsibilities of the

19     security administration with respect to these kinds of plans, and you've

20     testified today about the importance of the situation close to the border

21     or the borders of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and how that was

22     relevant and important to the security administration.  And so I guess I

23     would just ask you, first of all, in order to be able to protect the

24     borders of the FRY during the armed conflict between 1993 and 1995,

25     the -- the FRY, and, of course, the Army of Yugoslavia would want to have


Page 10899

 1     a plan in place, wouldn't it, in case, for example, an event such as

 2     Operation Storm or Operation Flash occurred?

 3        A.   Sir, you asked many different questions, so I will try to answer

 4     one by one.  It is rather difficult to answer to this question which says

 5     "wouldn't it."  But first of all, when it comes to the directive, I said

 6     that the first time I saw this directive was from the hands of Mr. Lukic.

 7     Before then I never saw it.

 8             Secondly, I said that while I was the chief of security

 9     department of the command of the 1st Army, I also never received any

10     document that would have "Drina" in its title.  When I came back to the

11     security administration again, I never saw any document marked with the

12     word "Drina."  So the first time I saw a document marked with the word

13     "Drina," this was when Counsel Lukic showed it to me.  I never

14     participated in its drafting, in any phase of its drafting.  And secondly

15     when you said that -- as I said, I never participated in drafting of the

16     plans or this directive, and I talked about the obligations of the

17     security organs when a similar war plan or directive was drafted.  So

18     whenever such a document was drafted at a security level, the security

19     administration would always provide its contribution, and that

20     contribution would consist of two elements, the textual element and a

21     table that would be called a plan of security.

22             So I can't really answer any questions concerning this particular

23     document because I never saw it.  I did not participate in --

24        Q.   General, sorry.  I never suggested that you had seen this

25     document, and I haven't asked you about this document.  Let me try to ask


Page 10900

 1     my question more simply.

 2             Given the circumstances taking place in the area of the former

 3     Yugoslavia in 1994/1995, as a prudent armed force, the Army of Yugoslavia

 4     needed to have a plan in case the security of its borders were

 5     threatened; right?

 6        A.   Yes, sir.  It had its war plan.  The Army of Yugoslavia did have

 7     the war plan.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And this plan, in case -- for example, in case Croatian

 9     forces threatened to invade the -- or did invade the territories of the

10     Republic of Serbian Krajina and Republika Srpska, what was the -- what

11     was the plan to defend the borders of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

12        A.   Sir, in case of an aggression, we had a defence plan for the

13     protection of the territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of

14     Yugoslavia.

15        Q.   And the name of that plan?

16        A.   I'm not sure that I can say this.  I'm not sure that I'm not

17     under the obligation to protect this confidential information concerning

18     the name of that plan.

19        Q.   Then I'll withdraw my question.  Can you tell us where such a

20     plan has been recorded or kept?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would suggest if we continue with

23     this line of questioning to move into a private session.

24             MR. SAXON:  Very well.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.


Page 10901

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 10902

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

11             MR. SAXON:

12        Q.   General Gajic, on Wednesday at -- this is at page 10840 of the

13     transcript.  You agreed with the proposition put to you by Mr. Lukic that

14     the VJ, the VRS, and the SVK were "three entirely separate and

15     independent armies."  Do you recall that?

16        A.   I recall that, sir.

17        Q.   And again yesterday, this is at pages 10842 to 10843, you

18     described how the chief of the intelligence security sector of the VRS

19     was Colonel and later General Zdravko Tolimir.  You described how

20     Ljubisa Beara was chief of the VRS military security sector, and how

21     Colonel Petar Salapura was the chief of military intelligence for the

22     VRS.  Do you recall that?

23        A.   Yes, I recall that, sir.

24        Q.   Were you aware that each of these men were assigned to the

25     30th Personnel Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia?  I should say, of the


Page 10903

 1     General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia.

 2        A.   I was aware that they were on the register of the 30th Personnel

 3     Centre.

 4        Q.   I see.

 5             MR. SAXON:  Well, can we show the witness what is P2698, please.

 6        Q.   And, General Gajic, this is an extract of the VJ personnel file

 7     of Petar Salapura.

 8             MR. SAXON:  And if we could scroll down a bit, please, in the

 9     B/C/S version.  And if we could go to page 5 of the English version,

10     please.

11        Q.   General, if you direct your attention to the second row from the

12     bottom, you'll see it says there that Petar Salapura was transferred and

13     assigned to the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia's 30th Personnel

14     Centre.  Do you see that?

15        A.   Could you please read this once again?  I have difficulty reading

16     this.

17             MR. SAXON:  Can we please scroll to the --

18        Q.   We see in the left-hand corner it says -- left-hand column, it

19     says:

20             "Transferred and assigned in keeping with MF outside the garrison

21     due to service requirements, chief of intelligence department."

22             And the next column to the right:

23             "General Staff, 30th Personnel Centre, Belgrade garrison."

24             Do you see that?

25        A.   Yes, I can.


Page 10904

 1        Q.   And then further to the right, we see, "10 November 1993."  So

 2     can we agree that Colonel Salapura was transferred and assigned to the

 3     30th Personnel Centre?

 4        A.   Sir, he was merely registered in the 30th personnel centre in

 5     order to be able to resolve his status-related and social entitlements,

 6     and this was the purpose for which the 30th Personnel Centre was

 7     established, the 30th Personnel Centre which was, as far as I know, under

 8     the administration for personnel affairs of the General Staff of the VJ.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Saxon, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

10     You've referred to this column which says, "10th November 1993."  What is

11     the heading of that column at the beginning of this chapter?

12             MR. SAXON:  "Period from-to."

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. SAXON:

15        Q.   Well, sir, can we agree on this:  The document says, "transferred

16     and assigned," does it not?

17        A.   Yes, this is what the document says, but I explained what was the

18     function of the 30th Personnel Centre and why it was established.

19        Q.   And military documents are meant to be precise; right?

20        A.   Sir, I am not an expert for personnel issues.  I am a

21     counter-intelligence officer, and I can tell you as much as I know

22     concerning the 30th Personnel Centre.

23        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you now.  I asked you a very simple

24     question.  I'll repeat it, and I'd like an answer.

25             Military documents are meant to be precise; right?


Page 10905

 1        A.   Generally speaking, yes.

 2             MR. SAXON:  Can we show -- we can leave this document, and can we

 3     show P2128, please.

 4        Q.   And we see here the first page.  We see in handwriting, "Order by

 5     the chief, PRU, number 5-34."  And then we see, "9, 7 February 1994."

 6             General Gajic, are you aware whether the acronym PRU refers to

 7     personnel, or personnel order or administration?

 8        A.   Unfortunately, I can't say that.  I don't know.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   I don't know what PRU stands for.

11             MR. SAXON:  Okay.  Can we move to the next page in both

12     languages, please.

13        Q.   And if we could focus on what's at the top of the screen, please.

14     It says:

15             "Order number 5-34 of the chief of personnel administration of

16     the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army of February 7th, 1994."

17             And then below that it says:  "Transferred and appointed."

18             Are you following me, General?

19        A.   Yes, I am, sir.

20             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to page 3 in the English version, please,

21     and the next page in the B/C/S version.  And if you -- actually,

22     Mr. Registrar, if you could focus on number 3, which is starting in the

23     middle of the page in the B/C/S version to make it easier for

24     General Gajic.  Thank you.

25        Q.   You see, General Gajic, if we --


Page 10906

 1             MR. SAXON:  And if we could scroll down in the English, please.

 2        Q.   Again we see an order related to Petar Salapura.  It says:

 3             "At the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia."

 4             And, actually --

 5             "30th Personnel Centre, Main Staff, as chief of the intelligence

 6     department."

 7             MR. SAXON:  And can we go to the next page in English, please.

 8        Q.   We see what it says.

 9             "He is transferred and appointed as per the needs of the service,

10     effective 10 November 1993, when the establishment was prescribed."

11             Are you following me?

12        A.   Where is this?  We are talking about Petar Salapura, are we?  I

13     apologise.

14        Q.   Yes.  Towards the bottom of the page in your version.

15        A.   Yes, yes, I can see this.

16             MR. SAXON:  And then if you look -- can we go one page forward in

17     the B/C/S version.  Same page in English.

18        Q.   And there we see "Zdravko Tolimir."

19             MR. SAXON:  I see Mr. Lukic is on his feet.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, on the previous page you can

22     see the name and the surname in B/C/S, so possibly the witness should be

23     shown the previous page, first of all.

24             MR. SAXON:  I'm grateful.  Could we move back to the previous

25     page and focus on the bottom.


Page 10907

 1        Q.   You see Mr. Tolimir is mentioned there?  Item number 4.

 2        A.   Yes, I can see that, sir.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MR. SAXON:  And can we then go to the next page in Serbo-Croat,

 5     please.

 6        Q.   And we see now that Mr. Tolimir is at the General Staff of the

 7     Army of Yugoslavia, he's being transferred and appointed to the

 8     30th Personnel Centre, Main Staff, as assistant chief.

 9             Again, below, he is transferred and appointed as per the needs of

10     the service, effective 10 November 1993.

11             Are you with me?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. SAXON:  Okay.  Your Honour, I see the time.  Shall we pause

14     now and we'll continue with this document.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, please.  We'll take a break and come back at

16     quarter to 6.00.  Court adjourned.

17                           --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

20             MR. SAXON:

21        Q.   General Gajic, we were reviewing --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Saxon, please.

23             MR. SAXON:  I'm very sorry.

24        Q.   We were reviewing what is Exhibit P2128, and I believe when we

25     stopped we were looking at the entry for Colonel Tolimir.  Do you see


Page 10908

 1     that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Where he is transferred and appointed as per the needs of the

 4     service, effective 10 November 1993.  And he's being transferred and

 5     appointed to the 30th Personnel Centre.  Isn't that what this document

 6     indicates?

 7        A.   Yes, sir.  That's right.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Okay.  Can we please turn to page 17 in the English

 9     version.  And I will give a page number in the Serbo-Croat version, if I

10     can.  We'd be looking for entry number 27 in the Serbo-Croat version,

11     which is on page 15.  Are we on -- now can we go to page 15 in the --

12     there we go.  Okay.  And if we could -- actually, can we please go

13     forward one page in B/C/S, please.  And if we could - thank you - zoom in

14     on what is number 27.  And if we could scroll to the bottom of the page

15     in English, please.

16        Q.   And you'll see here, General Gajic, Ljubisa Beara, a gentleman

17     who you knew, to the Yugoslav army General Staff, 30th Personnel Centre,

18     as chief of department.  And on the right-hand side we see the date,

19     10 November 1993.

20             MR. SAXON:  Can we move forward one page in the English version,

21     please.

22        Q.   And we see, again with respect to Mr. Beara, that he was also --

23     he was transferred and appointed as per the needs of the service.  Do you

24     see that, General Gajic?

25        A.   I see that.


Page 10909

 1        Q.   So can we agree that Ljubisa Beara was also transferred and

 2     appointed to the 30th Personnel Centre?

 3        A.   Sir, his record was being kept by the 30th Personnel Centre so

 4     that he could avail himself of his social benefits and status

 5     entitlements.  As far as I know as I said yesterday he was the chief of

 6     the security administration and the General Staff of the VJ.  Therefore,

 7     he was outside the chain of command of the VJ and was now part of the

 8     chain of command of the VRS.  I have to say I am no professional in this

 9     matter, but that is my interpretation.

10        Q.   Well, do I take your response, General, to my question as a yes

11     or as a no?

12        A.   Sir, what is your question?

13        Q.   I'll repeat it.  I thought it was pretty clear.

14             My question was, can we agree that Ljubisa Beara was also

15     transferred and appointed to the 30th Personnel Centre?  You can answer

16     "Yes," "No," "I don't know."

17        A.   I don't understand the question.  I explained what I believe the

18     answer should be.  I know of no other answer.

19        Q.   Well, can we agree that the document, this order that was issued

20     in February 1994, uses the language "transferred and appointed," doesn't

21     it?  Isn't that the language that we saw?

22        A.   That's right, sir.  That's what it says.

23        Q.   The document doesn't use the term, "is registered in the

24     30th Personnel Centre," does it?

25        A.   That's right, sir.


Page 10910

 1        Q.   Did you know a man named Svetozar Kosoric from the JNA and the

 2     Army of Yugoslavia?  I'll spell that, K-o-s-o-r-i-c, with the diacritic.

 3     Svetozar Kosoric.  Did you know him?

 4        A.   No, sir.  That name doesn't ring a bell, not based on what you

 5     said.

 6             MR. SAXON:  Okay.  Can we please show the witness what is

 7     Exhibit P2518, please.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I believe it's confidential, Mr. Saxon.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  You're absolutely

10     correct.  Can we move into private session.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

12 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             Yes, Mr. Lukic -- I beg your pardon.

16             Mr. Saxon.

17             MR. SAXON:  I'll take that as a compliment, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

19             MR. SAXON:

20        Q.   If you take a look at this document, General Gajic, you will see

21     it is a request from the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska Army, dated

22     the 23rd of May, 1995, titled, "Request, sending officers on assignment

23     pursuant to Article 58 of the Yugoslav Army Law."

24             And then we see it says stamped "personally to," and then "the

25     Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army."  Do you see that?


Page 10911

 1        A.   I see that, sir.

 2        Q.   And this document is from the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff of

 3     the VRS, lieutenant General Manojlo Jovanovic.  And it says:

 4             "Based on the real need for the engagement of specific Yugoslav

 5     Army officers in VRS commands and units, we request you to send the

 6     following officers for temporary assistance, pursuant to Article 58 of

 7     the Yugoslav Army Law."

 8             And the first officer, forgive me if I'm mispronouncing his name,

 9     Svetozar Kosoric, son of Djoko, lieutenant-colonel.

10             "Currently chief of the VJ special units corps armoured brigade,

11     organ for intelligence affairs, in order to appoint him as the chief of

12     the VRS Drina Corps Command Department for Intelligences Affairs."

13             Are you following me?

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15        Q.   And then we see the second gentleman, Branko Karlica.

16             "Currently a desk officer at the Yugoslav Army General Staff 2nd

17     administration."

18             Did you know Branko Karlica?

19        A.   Officer number one and officer number two are members of the

20     military intelligence administration not of the security administration

21     of the General Staff of the VJ.

22        Q.   Fine.  My question was, Did you know Branko Karlica?

23        A.   No, sir, I didn't.

24        Q.   It says:

25             "... the mentioned officers have expressed their willingness to


Page 10912

 1     be temporarily assigned and sent to the relevant VRS commands, whereby

 2     their status should be regulated adequately with their appointments in

 3     the VJ units being put on temporary stay."

 4             And then it says:

 5             "As the mentioned officers have a professional background that is

 6     crucial to us, and as they were born in these territories, we hope that

 7     you will have understanding."

 8             Have you been following me?

 9        A.   Yes, sir.

10             MR. SAXON:  Can we now show the witness -- and, Your Honours, we

11     can move back into public session, please.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will do that -- I just wanted to check

13     something.  You ...

14             MR. SAXON:  Can I assist you, Your Honour?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No thanks.  You did not need to assist me.  The

16     transcript has done so.  Thank you so much.

17             MR. SAXON:  Okay.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

22             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

23             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show General Gajic Exhibit P2103.

24        Q.   And here we see a document, General Gajic, from the Drina Corps

25     commander, dated the 20th of August, 1995, by which Svetozar Kosoric has


Page 10913

 1     been appointed as the chief of the intelligence department, the

 2     intelligence security organ and the ground forces of the corps, the

 3     30th Personnel Centre of the General Staff, the army of Yugoslav Army.

 4     You see that?

 5        A.   Yes, I do, sir.

 6             MR. SAXON:  Can we scroll to the -- can we go to the -- can we go

 7     to the next page in English.  Excuse me.  If we stay on the -- I'm sorry.

 8     Can we please go back to the first page in English.  It's my fault.

 9     Focus on the bottom of the page, please.  And can we please scroll down

10     in the B/C/S version.

11             So we see the document explains that Mr. Kosoric has been

12     standing in as -- for the chief of the intelligence department in

13     accordance with this order from the 19th of June, 1995.

14             Can we go to the next page in English, please.

15        Q.   And the last section or provision, we see the words "Statement of

16     reasons."  And it says:

17              "Chief of intelligence department formation post at ground

18     forces corps, the 30th Personnel Centre, General Staff of the VJ, has

19     been unfulfilled for a longer period of time, so Acting Officer had to be

20     appointed until replenishment will be perform in any other way."

21             So we see that Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric -- excuse me,

22     Colonel Kosoric was appointed in this position through the 30th Personnel

23     Centre; right?

24        A.   I've explained that, and I have nothing to add.  I said as much

25     as I could.


Page 10914

 1        Q.   Did you know Vujadin Popovic, sir, in the JNA, in the Army of

 2     Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   No, sir.  I don't remember.

 4        Q.   You didn't know them, or you don't remember?  I'm sorry.

 5        A.   I didn't know him.

 6        Q.   All right.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Can we move into private session, please,

 8     Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

10     [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

14             MR. SAXON:  Can we show the witness P2066, please.  And that does

15     not look like the right exhibit at all.  Is that P2066?  2066.  I'm

16     sorry.

17        Q.   General Gajic, this is an extract, if you will, from the VJ

18     personnel file of Vujadin Popovic.

19             MR. SAXON:  And if we could turn, please, to page 2 in the

20     English version, please.  And if we could focus -- there we go.  Thank

21     you so much.

22        Q.   And you'll see, General Gajic, around halfway down the page in

23     your version we see that Mr. Popovic became the head of the security

24     department in the intelligence security organ in the 30th Personnel

25     Centre of the General Staff of the VJ beginning on the 1st of February,


Page 10915

 1     1995.  Do you see that?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   Okay.  If we can remain in private session.  Did you know a

 4     gentleman, sir, named Radoslav Jankovic in the JNA, the VJ?

 5        A.   Sir, I don't remember that.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness Exhibit P2519.

 8        Q.   You'll see, General Gajic, this is a document from the Main Staff

 9     of the Army of Republika Srpska, dated the 25th of April, 1995.  There's

10     a handwritten note at the top.  It says:

11             "Krga, proposal, but after talks with them."

12             And then it says:

13             "To the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, to the attention of

14     the Chief of Staff."

15             Branko Krga was a member of the General Staff of the Army of

16     Yugoslavia, wasn't he, in 1995?

17        A.   Yes, sir.

18        Q.   And his position was what?

19        A.   Sir, he was chief of the military intelligence administration.

20        Q.   And the document says:

21             "Please, as soon as possible send us the following officers for

22     duty in the VRS Main Staff intelligence administration."

23             The first person is Colonel Rade Katic, who previously spent one

24     year of service in the VRS Main Staff, but then he returned to duty in

25     the VJ Main Staff.


Page 10916

 1             Second person, Lieutenant-Colonel Radoslav Jankovic, currently on

 2     duty in the VJ General Staff 2nd administration.

 3             "On your request he was temporarily reassigned to the VRS Main

 4     Staff intelligence administration where he spent two months.

 5             "Both persons are born in the territory of the Republika Srpska,

 6     where their parents still reside."

 7             And then it says:

 8             "As the VRS Main Staff administration remains undermanned, there

 9     are only four officers and one non-commissioned officer, but the extent

10     of the job is increasing, especially in the section for analysis.  I

11     kindly ask you to grant this request as soon as possible."  And then we

12     see that it's from General Ratko Mladic.

13             Do you see that?

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15        Q.   And then there is message at the bottom of the page from

16     Sinisa Borovic, addressed to, "Sir, Colonel."

17             "We forward you the VRS Main Staff telegram and inform you that

18     the chief of the VJ General Staff ordered:  'Krga, proposal, but after

19     talks with them.'"

20             MR. SAXON:  Can we please move back into public session,

21     Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  With the document still on the screen?

23             MR. SAXON:  Without it, Your Honour.  We can leave this document

24     now.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Main the document please be removed, and may the


Page 10917

 1     Chamber please move into open session.

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 6             MR. SAXON:  And I'd like to play some excerpts from what is P438,

 7     some video material.

 8        Q.   And, General Gajic, I'm going to show you some video material

 9     from a meeting that was held at the Hotel Fontana in the town of

10     Bratunac, in Republika Srpska, on the 13th of July, 1995.  And I'm going

11     to stop it at certain points.

12             Can we start at 1:42:45.  It takes a while, Your Honour, to bring

13     this up on Sanction.

14             One hour, 42 minutes, and 45 seconds.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. SAXON:  Stop there, please.

17        Q.   General, the man facing us -- we're at 1:42:52.

18             General, the man facing us who is bald with the moustache has

19     been identified in testimony before this Chamber as Colonel

20     Svetozar Kosoric.

21             MR. SAXON:  Can we continue now to 1:44:30, and then start again,

22     please.  Just fast-forward, please.  Can we move forward, please.  It's

23     very difficult to see.  Can we move forward, please, to 1:45:09.

24        Q.   If we stop there at 1:45:11, again at the far right-hand corner

25     of the table we see Colonel Kosoric.


Page 10918

 1             MR. SAXON:  Can we fast forward, please, to 1:50:29.

 2        Q.   General, the man facing us on the other side of the table, this

 3     is at 1:50:29, with the moustache, has been identified by witnesses in

 4     these proceedings as Colonel Vujadin Popovic.  And if we could -- and the

 5     man at the end of the table, on the left end, facing us, has been

 6     identified as Radoslav Jankovic.

 7             Now, my question for you is, you've talked about the fact that

 8     you knew Mr. Tolimir, Salapura, Beara, because you knew them from the

 9     security intelligence organs, that they were serving in the VRS.  We've

10     just seen these gentlemen here, Kosoric, Popovic, Jankovic, also serving

11     in the VRS, coming from the Army of Yugoslavia.

12             I want to go back to your position that you made earlier about

13     these being separate and independent armies.  Wouldn't it be fair to say,

14     General Gajic, that the VRS was dependent on the VJ for its senior-level

15     security and intelligence officers?  Isn't that really what this evidence

16     shows?

17        A.   No, sir.

18        Q.   Okay.  We can't --

19        A.   I can also explain.

20        Q.   All right.  Please.

21        A.   You started, if you excuse me, by asking me the questions that

22     should have come later, and you didn't ask me what I tried to explain,

23     and this is how the 30th Personnel Centre was set up and what its role

24     actually was.

25             So these were officers who were -- who were dispatched and


Page 10919

 1     voluntarily so.  You saw from the documents that interviews were carried

 2     out with them.  So they were dispatched voluntarily to the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska, and they were appointed at certain positions within the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska.  So they were outside the chain of command of

 5     the VJ, and they were now within the chain of command of the Army of

 6     Republika Srpska.

 7             The 30th Personnel Centre was formed, if you allow me -- please

 8     allow me, because these are some of the principal issues.

 9             The 30th Personnel Centre was formed in order to keep the records

10     of these persons so that these persons could regulate their

11     status-related issues which they were entitled to pursuant to law.  This

12     is my answer.

13        Q.   General Gajic, where did you see in the documents that I've shown

14     you that these gentlemen were dispatched voluntarily to the Army of

15     Republika Srpska?  Where did you see that?  Where did I show you a

16     document that Ljubisa Beara was dispatched voluntarily to the Army of

17     Republika Srpska, Petar Salapura --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon now asked three questions.

20     First of all, a general question and then some specific questions.  So

21     possibly he would like to rephrase those questions, or ask them one by

22     one.

23             MR. SAXON:  My colleague makes a fair point.

24        Q.   General --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If -- I may not remember which of these exhibits


Page 10920

 1     you showed us, but there's one where it was talking about two gentlemen

 2     who were interviewed and said they were willing to go back.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Okay.  We'll go back to that.  Ah, yes.  Can we --

 4     can we show the witness what is P2518, please.  And can the Registry help

 5     me whether this is a -- can we move into private session.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 7             Sorry, Mr. Court Usher.

 8 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

12             MR. SAXON:  Okay.  Can we scroll down to the bottom of the page

13     in English, please.

14        Q.   And we see in this document, General Gajic, that you are right

15     with respect to these two individuals, Svetozar Kosoric and

16     Branko Karlica.  It says that they have expressed their willingness to be

17     temporarily assigned and sent to the relevant VRS commands.

18             Now, can we move out of public session?  We don't need this

19     document any more.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into -- do you want to

21     stay in closed session while you object, sir, or --

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one thing I would like to say.

23     Possibly we can clarify this with the witness now or I'll do it in my

24     redirect, but we have a significant problem with the translation of the

25     portion that was in the original written by hand.  We have a problem with


Page 10921

 1     the translation of that part.  But I apologise, Your Honours.  I will

 2     address this issue in my redirect.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 4             May the document please be removed from the screen.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the President, please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the document please be removed from the

 7     screen.  Thank you.

 8             It has now been removed.  May the Chamber now move into open

 9     session.

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

14             MR. SAXON:

15        Q.   I don't think you've really answered -- you've really explained

16     your response, sir.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the question that you had asked was:

18             "Where in any of the documents that I've shown you is it

19     mentioned that they went willingly."

20             Now, and --

21             MR. SAXON:  And we've seen -- [overlapping speakers]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now the exhibit has answered you.

23             MR. SAXON:  That's correct, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine, so he has answered the question.

25             MR. SAXON:  He has, Your Honour.  I'm going to move back to


Page 10922

 1     another question.

 2        Q.   I had asked you, General Gajic, wouldn't it be fair to say that

 3     the VRS was dependent on the Army of Yugoslavia for its senior-level

 4     security and intelligence officers, and you said no.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So he answered your question.

 6             MR. SAXON:  That's correct, Your Honour.  That is correct.

 7             I will move on now to a different topic.  Can we show the

 8     witness, please, what is P1151.  We can stay in public session.

 9             Actually, it's a related topic.  It's still related to this issue

10     of separate and independent armies.

11        Q.   We see, General, that this is a document from the Main Staff, the

12     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, personnel administration, the

13     40th Personnel Centre.  It's addressed to the Main Staff of the 40th

14     Personnel Centre.  And we see here it says that:

15             "The Army of Yugoslavia Military School -- Military Centre,

16     requests that Djuro Vojkovic, Captain 1st Class, return to the duty in

17     the military school centre of the VJ as soon as possible due to special

18     needs of the service."

19             And then it explains:

20             "He is currently in the 11th Corps of the 40th Personnel Centre,

21     where he was sent temporarily pursuant to Article 271 of the Law on the

22     Service in the Armed Forces."

23             And it requests that Captain Vojkovic be issued with the

24     authorisation to return to his parent unit.

25             Do you see that?


Page 10923

 1        A.   Yes, I do, sir.

 2        Q.   So after the Army of Yugoslavia transferred officers to the Army

 3     of Serbian Krajina via the 40th Personnel Centre, they would also arrange

 4     sometimes to bring them home if the needs of the Army of Yugoslavia

 5     required it.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the way this question

 8     was posed is a rather complicated one.

 9             [In English] If the Army of Yugoslavia transferred officers to

10     the Army of Serbian Krajina.

11             MR. SAXON:  I can break it down.

12        Q.   After VJ officers were assigned to the 40th Personnel Centre and

13     served in the army of the Serbian Republic of Krajina, the VJ also, if

14     their needs -- the VJ also would call them back if their needs depended

15     on it; right?

16        A.   Sir, this would be my interpretation of this document.  The

17     Captain 1st Class of the Technical Service, Vojnovic [sic], Djuro, during

18     an interview agreed voluntarily to join the Army of Serbian Krajina.  At

19     that point he exited from the chain of command of the VJ and entered the

20     chain of command of the Army of Serbian Krajina where he was appointed at

21     a particular duty.  And in order for his status to be regulated, his

22     record was entered into the records of the 40th Personnel Centre.  Then

23     it was estimated the Army of Yugoslavia for this person who voluntarily

24     left, that he was needed because of the combat readiness of the Army of

25     Yugoslavia, and for that reason it was requested that he returned because


Page 10924

 1     he was needed for the combat readiness which was always our primary task.

 2     So this is my interpretation of this document.

 3        Q.   Well, all right.  Let me -- let's talk about your response,

 4     please, step-by-step.

 5             You say that this document indicates that Captain 1st Class

 6     Vojnovic [sic], during an interview agreed voluntarily to join the Army

 7     of Serbian Krajina.  Can you tell us where within the four corners of

 8     this document we see that information?

 9        A.   Sir, we cannot see that first part.  That is what we are lacking

10     here.  We do not have any explanation of the conditions within which this

11     person left.  So it was decision of the Supreme Defence Council, and they

12     were orders of the president of the FRY and Chief of the General Staff to

13     form the personnel centres, and pursuant to all these decisions the

14     officers could be sent to the Army of Republika Srpska and

15     Serbian Krajina only voluntarily, only following an interview, and only

16     if they signed a statement to the effect that they went there

17     voluntarily.  This is what we can't see here, but I know that these

18     orders were in place, that these decisions were in place, and this is why

19     I conclude that the same procedure was undertaken for Mr. Vojnovic [sic],

20     and I can only assume that he was also born in the territory of Croatia.

21        Q.   All right.  Let's take this a little bit more slowly, please.

22             If I understand your response, not just to my last question but

23     to the question before that, you said that it was requested that

24     Captain Vojnovic [sic] be returned because he was needed for the combat

25     readiness, "which was always our primary task."


Page 10925

 1             So the point being Captain Vojnovic [sic] was needed for the

 2     readiness of the VJ.  Is that what was happening here?

 3        A.   Sir, it is said here that he had to report to the duty at the

 4     centre of military schools of the Army of Yugoslavia.  So this was the

 5     educational institution, and he was probably needed there.  I do not know

 6     what his speciality was.  I can't read that anywhere in this document.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Can we show the witness P2598, please.

 8        Q.   We're going to -- we're not going to focus on Captain Vojnovic

 9     [sic] any more.

10             You'll see, General Gajic, this is an order of the chief of the

11     personnel administration of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia,

12     dated 17 June, 1994.

13             MR. SAXON:  Can we scroll up in the English, please.  Scroll up

14     in the English, please.  Thank you.

15        Q.   We see at the top, it says:  "Order number 5-193."  Do you see

16     that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   All right.  And the first page tells us that:

19             "Pursuant to item 7, subparagraph 4 and 5," et cetera, "... on

20     determining authorities and on responsibilities of commanding officers in

21     solving relations in the service of the Army of Yugoslavia ..."

22             We see a number of people is appointed as per peacetime

23     establishment.

24             MR. SAXON:  And can we please go to page 9 in the English version

25     and page 8 in the B/C/S version.  And if we could actually focus on the


Page 10926

 1     bottom of the page, please.  Bottom of the page in English.

 2        Q.   And if you take a look, General, at item 13.  Above that we see

 3     the heading, "To 1st Army ... operations group 'Drina.'"

 4             And below that, number 13, we see:

 5             "Tihomir Babic, son of Zivko, Infantry Captain 1st Class ... to

 6     the Loznica Garrison."  Dated 17 June, 1994.

 7             And then it says:

 8             "Now:  Duty post at the 30th Personnel Centre of the Yugoslav

 9     Army General Staff ..."

10             Do you see that?

11        A.   Yes, I do, sir.

12        Q.   Now -- okay.

13             MR. SAXON:  Can we go to the next page in English, please.  And

14     if we could focus on the top of the page in English.

15        Q.   And, General, we're looking at a line that begins with,

16     "Responsible commanding officer."  Do you have that in your page in the

17     bottom?  It says --

18        A.   Yes, do, sir.

19        Q.   It says:

20             "Responsible commanding officer will appoint the named person

21     immediately.  Upon receipt of the document on appointment, he shall be

22     immediately released from duty as per peacetime and sent to the new

23     duty."

24             MR. SAXON:  Now, can we please leave this document, and can we

25     show the witness Exhibit P1856.


Page 10927

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but --

 2             MR. SAXON:  I needed to show him this document as an introduction

 3     to the document that's coming, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MR. SAXON:

 6        Q.   General Gajic, this document is from the Main Staff of the Army

 7     of the Republika Srpska, Sector for Organisation, Mobilisation and

 8     Personnel.  It's dated 14th of August, 1994.  Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   It says:  "Tihomir Babic, Captain 1st Class."

11             Then it says:

12             "Execution of an order regarding transfer.  To the command of the

13     Drina Corps."

14             It says:

15             "Further to an order number 5-193, dated 17 June 1994," which was

16     the order that we just saw, P1151 -- excuse me, P2598.

17             It says further to that order:

18             "Tihomir Babic, Infantry Captain 1st Class, is transferred from

19     the 30th Personnel Centre to the VJ unit."

20             And then it says:

21             "The aforementioned shall be forthwith discharged from his

22     present unit and dispatched into transfer."

23             Have you been following me?

24        A.   Yes, all the time.

25        Q.   Now, this document that we're looking at now, this execution of


Page 10928

 1     an order regarding transfer, it's issued by the Main Staff of the Army of

 2     Republika Srpska; right?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is what is written at the top of the document, "Main

 4     Staff, Army of the Republika Srpska, Sector for Organisation,

 5     Mobilisation, Personnel."

 6        Q.   All right.  Please help us with this:  If the VJ and the VRS were

 7     two separate and independent armies, how is it that an officer in the VRS

 8     Main Staff had the power to execute an order to transfer Captain Babic

 9     from a VJ General Staff unit to another VJ army unit?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no objections regarding this

12     question, but I would kindly ask the interpreters to repeat their

13     interpretation into Serbian of the question by Mr. Saxon.  The way it has

14     been interpreted, I believe it might cause some confusion.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Interpreters, will you please repeat the

16     interpretation to the witness.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, we have exactly the reverse

18     here of what we had previously.  We have Babic Tihomir, son of Zivko, an

19     officer, who was sent on a voluntary basis to the VRS, meaning he was now

20     outside the chain of command of the VJ.  He was appointed not to the

21     Main Staff of the VRS but, rather, to the Hercegovina Corps.  On the

22     left-hand side, towards the bottom of the document, you will find the

23     signature of Assistant Commander Major General Mico Grubor.

24             It is very likely, although we have no -- none of the previous

25     documents which I suppose should exist, that the army had the need for


Page 10929

 1     Babic Tihomir, son of Zivko, to be returned to the VJ and appointed to

 2     the Loznica unit with the VJ.  Most probably there had been a request by

 3     the VJ for that officer to be relieved of his duties with the VRS.  He

 4     was now outside the chain of command of the VRS.  And then through the

 5     30th Personnel Centre, he was taken off the file in terms of social

 6     benefits and his status there and was now back within the chain of

 7     command of the VJ.  An order is here issued for his appointment to the

 8     VJ.

 9             That is my understanding, and I believe my interpretation is

10     correct.

11             MR. SAXON:

12        Q.   The thing is, General, that you haven't answered my question.

13     We've reviewed the documents.  We know what the documents say.  But my

14     question -- I didn't ask you to tell us what the documents say.

15             Let me lay out the situation here for you.  We saw Exhibit P2598

16     which was the document bearing order number 5-193.  That contained the

17     order for Captain Tihomir Babic to be transferred from the 30th Personnel

18     Centre of the General Staff of the VJ to a position in the 1st Army.  And

19     now on our screen we see P1856, which is a document issued by a member of

20     the VRS entitled, "Execution of an order regarding transfer," regarding

21     Captain Babic.  And I'll repeat my question.

22             You told us very emphatically yesterday that the VRS -- well,

23     that the VRS, the SVK, and the VJ were three separate and independent

24     armies.  So my question is:  If the VJ and the VRS were two separate and

25     independent armies, how is it that an officer in the VRS had the power to


Page 10930

 1     execute an order to transfer Captain Babic from a unit of the VJ General

 2     Staff to another unit of the VJ?  Help us understand this, please.

 3        A.   Sir, I answered this question to the best of my ability.  I am

 4     not a personnel officer.  I'm no professional in that field.  I stand by

 5     my previous answers, which doesn't mean you may not come across better

 6     qualified individuals to study this particular issue.  I know what I

 7     know, and I have said as much.

 8        Q.   You see, the difficulty I have with that response, General Gajic,

 9     is that you've made some very emphatic propositions about

10     personnel-related matters today in response to my question about what

11     it -- what the 30th Personnel Centre was, about how persons came to

12     become members of the Army of Republika Srpska or the Army of Republika

13     Srpska Krajina.  So it's difficult for me, then, to understand your last

14     response, which now you're saying you don't know too much about

15     personnel-related matters.

16        A.   Sir, I'm afraid you didn't understand.  I answered based on the

17     decisions and orders regulating the issue in the spirit of the law.  If I

18     have failed to meet your expectations, I can only say that I'm sorry, but

19     I am unable to offer any other answer.  I stand by my answer.  My answer

20     is based on decisions and orders.

21             I did not deal with these issues.  You're asking me about

22     personnel-related matters here.  You have shown me some of these forms

23     and documents, that there were things there that I simply don't

24     understand.  I am not privy to the technicalities, and they're very hard

25     for me to decipher.  You asked me to explain; I have to say I did my best


Page 10931

 1     to help you along with this, but I can't be expected to say something I

 2     simply don't know.  It wouldn't be fair.

 3        Q.   I certainly accept that, General.  Would it be fair then to say

 4     that you weren't privy to all the technicalities regarding whether these

 5     were three separate and independent armies or not?  Is that fair?

 6        A.   As far as that is concerned, whether these were, in fact, three

 7     independent and separate armies, I have to be categorical about that.

 8     They were.

 9        Q.   But you weren't privy to all of the technicalities that might

10     have -- that might shed some light on this particular topic; is that

11     right?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think Mr. Saxon is very close to

14     speculation or asking the witness to speculate with this question.

15             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I'm asking a factual question.  I'm

16     testing the evidence of this witness.  I'm following up one of his

17     questions with a question of my own.  I don't think that there's anything

18     speculative about my question.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

20             MR. SAXON:

21        Q.   Do you want me to repeat my question, General Gajic?

22        A.   Yes, please.

23        Q.   You're categorical about the in fact these were three independent

24     and separate armies, and my question for you is:  You weren't privy to

25     all of the technicalities - that was the term you used - that might shed


Page 10932

 1     some light on this particular topic; correct?

 2        A.   Sir, I explained everything I could.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I'm about to move to another topic.  I

 4     see it's 5 to 7.00.  Can we pause at this time, or do you want me to

 5     start another topic?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are in your hands, Mr. Saxon.  If you want us

 7     to pause, we shall pause.  I don't know how long the next topic is going

 8     to take.  You know better.

 9             MR. SAXON:  It will take a while, Your Honour, so if we could

10     pause, I would be grateful.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a technical issue to raise

14     before we break for the day.  We sit in the morning tomorrow.  Could I

15     please be given an indication on the length of the remaining cross by

16     Mr. Saxon?  I have an idea about my own re-examination.  I am asking this

17     in view of the next witness who is lined up, if there is too little time

18     left for the next witness, and I am also in charge of examining the next

19     witness.  I'm not sure about Mr. Saxon's position regarding that.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, are you able to help your colleague?

21             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, at this point I can say I believe I will

22     take at least one session.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does that help you, Mr. Lukic?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will have at least a session for my

25     re-examination.  Therefore, if there is still some daylight after that,


Page 10933

 1     as they say, I will try to see what the Chamber's position is in terms of

 2     maybe not calling the next witness if there's too little time.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can the Chamber hear you at the time, sir?  Let's

 4     cross the bridge when we get to it.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No problem, Your Honour.  I was just

 6     wondering whether I should bring the witness into the building and keep

 7     him waiting here, but we can, as you said, cross that bridge when we come

 8     to it.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  From what both of you have said, it looks like we

10     will use two sessions tomorrow.  Mr. Saxon will take at least a session.

11     You will take perhaps another session to re-examine.  I don't know

12     whether there are questions from the Bench which might take whatever time

13     they take, and then questions by the parties after the questions by the

14     Bench.  So it's very difficult for me to come to your rescue, sir.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll see how things pan out.  We'll

16     be ready if you give us the go-ahead, but we'll wait up.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

18             Sir, unfortunately, we are not done with you.  You will still

19     have to come back tomorrow, but tomorrow we start early in the morning,

20     not in the afternoon.  We start at 9.00 in Courtroom III.

21             Once again I remind you that you may not discuss the case with

22     anybody, and in particular not with your -- the counsel for --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             The matter stands adjourned until tomorrow at 9.00 in


Page 10934

 1     Courtroom III.  Court adjourned.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day

 4                           of March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.

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