Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10935

 1                           Friday, 12 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

10     everyone in and around the courtroom this is case number IT-04-81-T, the

11     Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             Could we have appearances for the day, starting with the

14     Prosecution, please.

15             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon,

16     Bronagh McKenna, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

18             And for the Defence.

19             MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't hear any interpretation.

21             MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic I just want to be sure that

23     everybody can hear the English interpretation.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Can everyone hear the English interpretation

25     now?

Page 10936

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Interpreter.  We didn't hear you up

 2     to now.

 3             Anybody else?  Judge, can you hear?  Okay.

 4                           WITNESS:  BRANKO GAJIC [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, Mr. Gajic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I remind once again that you are bound by the oath

 9     that you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the

10     whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             Mr. Saxon.

14             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon:  [Continued]

16        Q.   Good morning, General Gajic.

17        A.   Good morning, sir.

18        Q.   Yesterday, page 7, lines 11 through 15 of the LiveNote, you

19     explained that during the war the security administration was

20     particularly concerned about combat operations that took place closer to

21     the border with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Do you remember

22     that?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness Exhibit P1926, please.

25        Q.   And just briefly, General, Mr. Lukic discussed this document with

Page 10937

 1     you yesterday.  This is at pages 14 to 15 of the LiveNote.  And as we

 2     see, it's a report from the security department of the Main Staff of the

 3     Serbian Army of Krajina, dated the 1st of July, 1994, and it's submitted

 4     to the security administration of the VJ General Staff, as well as to the

 5     security department of the Main Staff of the Serbian Army of Krajina.

 6     And yesterday, Mr. Lukic asked you whether you remembered seeing

 7     documents of this kind or indeed receiving documents of this kind during

 8     the war, and you responded:

 9             "Mr. Lukic, as far as I remember, there may have been several

10     documents like this from the SVK.  As for the VRS, we received none at

11     all or none that I can remember."

12             Do you remember that testimony?

13        A.   I do, sir.  If I may just add one thing.  What I had in mind was

14     the formal procedure [as interpreted] for documents under the rules and

15     documents and records of the security administration.

16        Q.   One moment, please.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.  Can we -- Mr. Saxon has asked for

18     a moment.  Maybe if you can just wait for him.

19             Are you okay now, Mr. Saxon?

20             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Objection, page 3, line 10.  He said

23     the formal appearance of the document or the format of the document.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's a correction, not an objection.  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, correction.

Page 10938

 1             MR. SAXON:

 2        Q.   All right, General.  I want to make sure that I understand your

 3     testimony, and we've just had a correction from -- from Mr. Lukic.  So

 4     what you wanted to add --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What he wanted to say is instead of "formal

 6     procedure," "formal appearance" of the documents.  In other words, the

 7     format of the document.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Okay.

 9        Q.   So -- so -- very well.  In other words, you don't recall -- as

10     far as you remember, you did not receive documents in this format from

11     the VRS.

12        A.   That's right, sir.  That's precisely what I had in mind.

13        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to show you, if we can, P2179, please.

14             General, this document, it's dated the 14th of May, 1995.  It's

15     from the intelligence and security sector of the VRS Main Staff.  It's

16     entitled "Intelligence Report," and take a moment to look at the first

17     page, the different matters that are being discussed here about pressures

18     being put on the FRY by the West, activities of officers of the HVO.  The

19     bottom of the page in English:

20             "On the 14th of May, diversionary activities of Muslims ..."

21             And if we could please go to the middle of the second page,

22     please, in both languages.

23             You'll see here, General Gajic, a paragraph beginning with "The

24     commands of the 218th Light Brigade."  Do you see that?

25        A.   I see that, sir.

Page 10939

 1        Q.   It talks about how the commands of the 218th Light Brigade and

 2     the 28th Division in Srebrenica are disseminating information that our

 3     forces are planning to sever the corridor between Srebrenica and Zepa,

 4     and hence they have sent a company from the 281st Light Brigade to the

 5     area of the village of -- I'm sorry for my mispronunciation, Podravanje,

 6     and they have deployed two other companies for securing the corridor.  We

 7     have confirmed reports that the command of the 28th Division is carrying

 8     out preparations for offensive operations from the Srebrenica enclave and

 9     Zepa to link up with parts of the 23rd, 26th, and 24th Divisions."

10             Have you been following me, sir?

11        A.   I have, sir.

12             MR. SAXON:  And if we could go to the last page, please, in both

13     versions.  And can we please scroll down in the B/C/S version, please.

14     Thank you.

15        Q.   You'll see, General, that this report comes from Zdravko Tolimir,

16     and I'd like you please to focus your attention on the very last line

17     under "CC."  You see there the very last line at the bottom of your page

18     it says UP, GS, VJ.  That P is actually a typographical error, isn't it?

19     That should be UB for security administration?

20        A.   That's right, sir.

21        Q.   So this document was sent to the security administration of the

22     VJ General Staff and the 2nd administration of the General Staff of the

23     VJ; right?

24        A.   That's right, sir.

25             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness P1831, sir.

Page 10940

 1        Q.   General Gajic, this is a document.  It's dated the 18th of May,

 2     1995.  It's from the intelligence and security section of the VRS Main

 3     Staff.  It's titled "Intelligence Information."  And we see reports on

 4     the first page about foreign affairs ministers of EU countries who were

 5     meeting in Lisbon, dissemination of information by the West.

 6             MR. SAXON:  And if we could please turn to page 3 in both English

 7     and B/C/S, please.

 8        Q.   Towards the middle of the page, General Gajic, in your version,

 9     we see a paragraph that begins with the phrase "Muslim propaganda."  Do

10     you see that?

11        A.   I see that, sir.

12        Q.   According to that paragraph:

13             "Muslim propaganda is emphasising alleged VRS operations towards

14     enclaves in the Podrinje region.  They have started occupying UNPROFOR

15     check-points in the Srebrenica area, while in the Gorazde area, on the

16     Gorazde-Ilovaca road, they're using UNPROFOR vehicles to manoeuvre forces

17     and transport materiel and technical equipment, which all indicates that

18     they are preparing offensive operations from the enclaves."

19             So again, in this information we see information regarding the

20     preparation of offensive operations from enclaves that are close to the

21     border with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; right?

22        A.   Yes, sir.

23             MR. SAXON:  And if we scroll down, please, at the bottom of the

24     B/C/S version.  And can we go to the next page in English.  Thank you.

25     And further down in the English, please.

Page 10941

 1        Q.   What we see, General, that this document came from

 2     Petar Salapura.  And we see under -- at the very bottom of the CC section

 3     we see:  "UB of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army."  That's the

 4     security administration, isn't it?  Your former administration?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   So again, this is an example of information sent from the VRS

 7     intelligence and security sector that was sent to your administration in

 8     the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia; correct?

 9        A.   That's right, sir.

10             MR. SAXON:  Can we see Exhibit P2184, please.

11        Q.   General Gajic, this document is dated 19th of May, 1995, from the

12     intelligence affairs sector of the Main Staff of the VRS.  It's entitled

13     "Intelligence Report."  And on the first page we see information about

14     Muslims who are illegally importing weapons and military equipment.

15             MR. SAXON:  And if we could go to page 3 in the English version

16     and page 2 in the B/C/S version, please.

17        Q.   General Gajic, if you could direct your attention to the first

18     full paragraph on the page in front of you beginning with "We have

19     confirmed ..."  It says:

20             "We have confirmed the information that the 28th Division is

21     undergoing intensive preparations for offensive activities in order to

22     link up with parts of the 23rd Division in the Han Pogled sector.  As

23     part of the offensive preparations from the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves,

24     they have taken possession of important facilities to secure the corridor

25     linking the enclaves, and they have partially grouped forces in the

Page 10942

 1     western part of the enclaves.  They have taken Podravanje, Ljeskovik,

 2     Susica, Stublic, Brloznik, Sadilov Cair, Godjenje, and Ljubomislje, and

 3     Gusinac, which are outside the so-called demilitarised zone, in order to

 4     take better conditions for offensive activities."

 5             Now, that 28th Division, that's 28th Division of the ABiH, isn't

 6     it?

 7        A.   That is correct, sir.

 8             MR. SAXON:  And can we scroll down in the B/C/S version, please,

 9     and can we please go to the last page of the English version.

10             I'm sorry, can we go back one page back in English, to the bottom

11     of the page.

12        Q.   We see, General, that this came from Major General Tolimir.  And

13     if we go one page further in the English, please, we see that this

14     document was also sent to the security administration of the

15     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.  Isn't that right?

16        A.   Yes, that's right, sir.

17             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness Exhibit P2178.

18        Q.   This document is dated the 21st of May, 1995.  It's from the

19     intelligence and security sector of the Main Staff of the VRS.  It's

20     titled "Intelligence Report," and we see information on the first page

21     about intelligence services of Western countries.

22             MR. SAXON:  And if we can turn to page 2 in the English and

23     page 2 in B/C/S, please.  And can we focus on the top of the page in the

24     B/C/S version.  Thank you so much.

25        Q.   And, General, you'll see at the top of the page in your version

Page 10943

 1     it says:

 2             "The Muslims in the Gorazde enclave continued with the supply of

 3     ammunition by air and establishing and maintaining a high level of combat

 4     readiness.  The command of the 81st Division is disseminating information

 5     that it has allegedly abandoned offensive operations due to the losses

 6     suffered by the 82nd Division at Treskavica.  We have confirmed reports

 7     that in the recent period they obtained fuel," something is crossed out

 8     and then written by hand, "from UNPROFOR.  The Muslim leadership is

 9     trying to avoid medical evacuation and prevent the abandonment of the

10     enclave."

11             Then in the next paragraph it says:

12             "They are trying to organise the return of the population to

13     Gorazde under the pretext of reuniting families.  On the territory of

14     Srebrenica, the Muslims are reinforcing and replenishing forces along the

15     forward line of defence, particularly in the Suceska area."

16             Have you been following me?

17        A.   Yes, sir, indeed I have.

18        Q.   So now we have information about another enclave that's quite

19     close to the border of the FRY; is that right?

20        A.   That's right, sir.

21             MR. SAXON:  Can we scroll down in the B/C/S version, please, and

22     in the English version.  Can we go to the next page in English, please.

23        Q.   And we see this document also comes from Petar Salapura, and in

24     the CC section, the last line, we see this document was sent to the UB,

25     the security administration of the VJ General Staff.  Is that right?

Page 10944

 1        A.   Yes, sir, that is right.

 2             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness P2180.

 3        Q.   General Gajic, this document is dated now the 26th of May, 1995.

 4     It is from the intelligence and security sector of the Main Staff of the

 5     VRS.  It's entitled "Intelligence Report."

 6             MR. SAXON:  And if we could scroll down this page in both

 7     versions, please.

 8        Q.   And in the second paragraph from the bottom, General, we see

 9     the -- it begins with "The Muslim media."  Do you see that?

10        A.   I see that, sir.

11        Q.   It says:

12             "The Muslim media are euphorically reporting on the allegedly

13     large number of victims among the civilian population on the territory of

14     Tuzla, and in so doing wish to force the continuation of NATO air-strikes

15     against VRS features and positions."

16             Now, the fact that NATO air-strikes might occur in an area

17     relatively close to the border of the FRY, that's something that the

18     security administration of the VJ General Staff would have been

19     interested in.  Is that fair?

20        A.   Yes, sir.  You could put it that way.

21             MR. SAXON:  Can we please go to the last page -- actually, the

22     second to last page in English, which is one page ahead, and the next

23     page in B/C/S, please.  And if we could focus on the bottom of the page,

24     actually, please, in both languages.

25        Q.   General Gajic, you will see that this document is from Colonel

Page 10945

 1     Jovica Karanovic, and in the CC section it is being sent as well to the

 2     security administration of the General Staff of the VJ.

 3             Are you following me?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.

 5        Q.   So there was information from the VRS security and intelligence

 6     organs forwarded to your administration during the war, wasn't there?

 7        A.   That's right, sir.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness D269.  It's

10     Exhibit D269.

11        Q.   General Gajic, Mr. Lukic discussed this document with you

12     yesterday.

13             MR. SAXON:  Can we scroll down in the B/C/S version, please.

14        Q.   We see at the top of this document it begins with the title

15     "Report number 2-107/1 on the state of the Muslim forces in the Zepa

16     enclave."  And then the next paragraph begins with:

17             "Having taken the Srebrenica enclave, VRS units concentrated

18     their forces around the Zepa enclave ..."

19             And we see that this report was submitted by the 2nd

20     administration of the VJ General Staff to General Perisic on the 14th of

21     July, 1995.  So let's just take this step-by-step.

22             This document shows that by the 14th of July, the security

23     administration of the VJ General Staff had information that the VRS had

24     taken the Srebrenica enclave; right?

25        A.   [No interpretation]

Page 10946

 1        Q.   I did not hear an English translation to what the witness -- to

 2     the witness's response.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  "That is correct, sir," said the witness.

 4             MR. SAXON:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   And on that day, the 14th, the security administration sent that

 6     information to Momcilo Perisic.

 7        A.   No, sir.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9        A.   The intelligence administration.

10        Q.   I see.  Thank you, sir.  Thank you for that correction.

11             Prior to the 14th --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I'm lost.  You said, And on that day,

13     the 14th, the security administration sent that information to

14     Momcilo Perisic.  The answer is, No, sir.  Question, All right.  The

15     intelligence administration.

16             What about the intelligence administration?

17             MR. SAXON:

18        Q.   General Gajic, I believe you were correcting a proposition in my

19     question.  I had put the question to you that it was the security

20     administration that provided this information to General Perisic, but in

21     your response you corrected me by saying that, No, this information came

22     from the intelligence administration.  Have we got it right?

23        A.   Yes, you have understood me perfectly now.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very important that the record is clear.

25             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 10947

 1        Q.   And put another way, when it says the 2nd administration of the

 2     General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, that's a reference to the

 3     intelligence administration; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, correct, sir.

 5        Q.   So prior to the 14th, do you know that -- whether the

 6     intelligence administration had received information that the VRS

 7     offensive at Srebrenica had begun?  Do you know that?

 8        A.   As far as I can remember, there were reports about those combat

 9     activities in that area.

10        Q.   Prior to the 14th.

11        A.   Yes.  That's what I had in mind.

12        Q.   Can you recall, sir, what was -- what were the first reports or

13     the first information that you received about the VRS combat activities

14     in the Srebrenica area?

15        A.   Well, sir, it was quite a long time ago.  I can't remember all

16     the details.  If you were to show me a document, perhaps that would

17     assist me.  Now, whether it was the beginning of July or -- or a date

18     around there, I really cannot be more precise, but I do know that there

19     were reports roughly of this kind of content that there were operations,

20     provocations from the Srebrenica zone, and the reaction the Army of

21     Republika Srpska.  Those reports had that kind of content.

22        Q.   Can you recall if those reports were coming to your

23     administration in July of 1995 on a daily basis?

24        A.   As far as I can remember, perhaps not every day, but they did

25     come on a more or less regular basis.

Page 10948

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered, but

 2     I think Mr. Saxon should be more precise, on page 13, line 15, when he

 3     says "those reports," because before that he asked when he first heard

 4     about that, and then perhaps he could ask the witness on the basis of

 5     which reports he had that information.  I don't think the question was

 6     precise enough.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Well, Your Honour --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not the question.  That's the answer.  The

 9     statement "those reports had that kind of content" is the answer.  I'm

10     talking about line 15.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw my objection, sir.

12             MR. SAXON:

13        Q.   And this information that was coming to your administration about

14     events around Srebrenica prior to 14th of July, your administration would

15     have also passed that information on to General Perisic.

16        A.   No, sir.  Those were reports of the intelligence administration

17     of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, and copies of those

18     reports would go to General Perisic, but the 2nd administration quite

19     regularly did send a copy of those reports to the security administration

20     as well.

21        Q.   Okay.  So thank you for that clarification.  So the point being

22     these reports about events around Srebrenica prior to the 14th of July

23     would have been sent -- would have been passed by the intelligence

24     administration to General Perisic.

25        A.   I'm sorry, sir.  I didn't quite understand your question.  Could

Page 10949

 1     you please repeat it.

 2        Q.   My mistake probably.  I initially asked you a moment ago whether

 3     your administration, the security administration, would have passed on

 4     information about the events around Srebrenica prior to the 14th of July

 5     on to General Perisic, and you corrected me.  And if I understood your

 6     point, your point is, it would have been the intelligence administration

 7     that would have passed this information on to General Perisic.  Have I

 8     got it?

 9        A.   Yes, sir, but I must add to that, and I apologise.  The

10     intelligence administration, and I spoke about that yesterday, would send

11     a copy of those reports to the operations centre of the General Staff of

12     the Army of Yugoslavia so that the duty team would enter it in their

13     report for the Chief of the General Staff, the contents of those reports.

14             I apologise for not saying that at first.

15        Q.   Thank you, sir.  All right.  I'm going to move to another topic

16     now.

17             MR. SAXON:  We can remove this document.

18        Q.   General Gajic, yesterday, you and I were discussing members of

19     the Army of Yugoslavia who went to serve in the VRS or the SVK, and at

20     pages -- if I read our discussions at pages 71, 75, 76 of -- of the

21     LiveNote transcript, your position appears to be that all those members

22     of the VJ who went to serve in the VRS and/or the SVK did so voluntarily.

23             Have I summarised your position accurately?

24        A.   Yes, you have, sir.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 10950

 1             MR. SAXON:  Can we show the witness Exhibit P822, please.

 2        Q.   General Gajic, I'll give you a moment to take a look at this

 3     document.  This is a court judgement.  It's from the 2nd Municipal Court

 4     in Belgrade, and it refers to a legal matter brought by

 5     Dragomir Milosevic.  And in the second paragraph entitled "Judgement" --

 6     actually, if we stay with the first paragraph, we see here that the

 7     parties are Dragomir Milosevic against the Federal Republic of

 8     Yugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro.

 9             And then if we move to the paragraph that's entitled "Judgement,"

10     it says that:

11             "The claim brought by the plaintiff Dragomir Milosevic from

12     Belgrade ... is hereby partly upheld, and the SRJ-SMO State is ordered to

13     compensate the plaintiff for the nonmaterial damages he suffered and to

14     pay the following amounts ..."

15             And then we see a series of amounts in dinars.  Are you following

16     me?

17        A.   Yes, I'm following, sir.

18             MR. SAXON:  Could we scroll down in the B/C/S version, please,

19     and in the English version as well.

20        Q.   And we see there's a section called "Statement of Reasons."  And

21     just briefly, the very start says:

22             "In his claim and through his authorised agent during trial, the

23     plaintiff alleged that on 17 May 1995, he was wounded in the course of

24     combat activities on the Bosut facility in the general sector of Zlatiste

25     near Sarajevo."

Page 10951

 1             Are you following me?

 2        A.   Yes, I am following.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Can we please turn to page 3 in both languages, sir.

 4        Q.   And I'd like to focus on the bottom of page 3 in the English

 5     version and the top of page 3 in the B/C/S version, if we can.  And,

 6     General, you'll see at the top of your version it says that:

 7             "The plaintiff Dragomir Milosevic ... stated that he had retired

 8     on the 1st of February 1997.  Prior to that he had been a professional

 9     officer of the JNA army, and then the Army of Yugoslavia, that he had

10     served in the Army of Republika Srpska in Sarajevo with the rank of major

11     general, that from 1993 until his retirement, he has resided and worked

12     in Sarajevo, although he was registered with military post 3001

13     Belgrade."

14             Been following me?

15        A.   I'm sorry, which paragraph is that?

16        Q.   In your version, General, it should be at the top of page 3.

17             MR. SAXON:  Well, we're on the wrong page on e-court.  That's the

18     problem in B/C/S.  We need page 3 in e-court.  We need the next page,

19     please, and can we please focus in on the top of the page.

20        Q.   I'll give you just a moment, General, to read what I've just

21     actually read out in English.

22             Do you see that text there now, sir?

23        A.   Yes, I do, thank you.

24        Q.   And in that paragraph it continues:

25             "He had lived and worked for years in Sarajevo as a professional

Page 10952

 1     JNA officer when the war broke out and was on the records of military

 2     post 3001 Belgrade while serving in Sarajevo-Lukavica."

 3             And then it says:

 4             "Furthermore, he stated that before the establishment of the

 5     State of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, professional JNA officers

 6     who originated from Serbia were invited to state in writing whether they

 7     wanted to return to Serbia, that, since he had been born in Serbia in

 8     Murgaz, Ub municipality --"

 9             MR. SAXON:  Can we move to the next page in English, please.

10        Q.    "... the plaintiff had stated in writing that he wanted to live

11     and work in Serbia as a professional officer, which was accepted so that

12     he was assigned to military post 3001 Belgrade.  But a decision was made

13     in the form of a written order that as a member of this military post, he

14     would serve in Sarajevo as a member of military post 7598 Sarajevo.  That

15     is how it happened that on 17 May 1995, he was wounded during combat

16     operations at the Bosut facility ..."

17             Have you been following me?

18        A.   Yes, I have, sir.

19        Q.   General, this court judgement indicates that General Dragomir

20     Milosevic did not go to serve in the VRS voluntarily.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think the question in the way it

23     has been put by Mr. Saxon cannot be put in this way.  Mr. Saxon has just

24     said what Mr. Milosevic stated as a party to the proceedings, and the

25     question has been worded differently.

Page 10953

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure I understand your objection,

 2     sir.  Are you saying Mr. Saxon is embellishing what's on the record of

 3     the court?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What Mr. Saxon has read shows that

 5     this is not the judgement of the court but a statement of the plaintiff,

 6     but the question put by Mr. Saxon in this way gives the impression that

 7     it is part of the court judgement.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

 9             MR. SAXON:  I can rephrase my question, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By all means.

11             MR. SAXON:

12        Q.   The version of events provided by Dragomir Milosevic and as

13     recorded in this document indicates that Dragomir Milosevic did not go to

14     serve in the VRS voluntarily.  Correct?

15        A.   On the basis of his statement, yes.  That is his statement.  That

16     is what he says.

17        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to move to a different topic now.  We can move

18     from this document.

19             Yesterday, General, in response to a question from Mr. Lukic, you

20     said that during the war you never received any official intelligence

21     reports about crimes in Srebrenica or Sarajevo.  Do you recall that

22     testimony?

23        A.   I do remember, sir.

24        Q.   I'd like to focus, please, on the subject of crimes that occurred

25     in Sarajevo.  In your testimony yesterday, you referred to official

Page 10954

 1     intelligence reports.  My first question for you is, during the war did

 2     you receive any official reports from VJ units outside the intelligence

 3     organs describing crimes committed by Serb forces against Muslims in

 4     Sarajevo?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure that I heard the

 7     interpretation properly, so I would ask the interpreter to -- to repeat

 8     this question once again.  Line -- page 19, line 18.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the interpreter please repeat this question at

10     page 19, line 18.

11             Are you there, interpreter?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter just repeated the question,

13     Your Honour.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I do not recall any such

15     reports.

16             MR. SAXON:

17        Q.   All right.  During the war -- [B/C/S on English channel].

18             MR. SAXON:  I just heard something in my earphones.  I don't know

19     whether it's important or not.

20             May I continue?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also heard it.  It looks like there is a crossed

23     line on the interpretation.  Even before that, since we started this

24     morning, there is somebody in another language in the background on my

25     earphone.  I don't know whether I'm the only one who's hearing this.

Page 10955

 1             MR. SAXON:  As you've pointed it out, Your Honour, I can vaguely

 2     hear.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, and it's been disturbing me the whole

 4     morning, by I thought I'll bear it, but now it's getting louder and

 5     louder.  I don't know whether there's anything that can be done by the

 6     technicians to help us.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will proceed, and hopefully the technicians are

 9     attending to the matter.

10             MR. SAXON:

11        Q.   General Gajic, during the war did you receive any official

12     reports from other FRY institutions or agencies, that is, apart from the

13     Army of Yugoslavia, describing crimes committed by Serb forces against

14     Muslims in Sarajevo?

15        A.   Sir, I do not remember any such reports, either, reaching me.

16        Q.   During the war, apart from official military or government

17     reports, then, did you receive any information at all about crimes

18     committed by Serb forces against Muslims in Sarajevo?

19        A.   I think I've answered that question, sir.  I don't remember

20     receiving any report at all about the crimes against Muslims.  I don't

21     remember.  Therefore, I'm unable to say.  If you have any evidence or

22     something that you're willing to show me, perhaps then we can take it

23     further.

24        Q.   Perhaps my question wasn't as clear as it could have been.  Up to

25     now I've been asking you questions about official reports because that

Page 10956

 1     was the basis of your testimony yesterday in response to a question from

 2     Mr. Lukic, and you've explained very clearly now that you've not received

 3     any official reports from the government of the former Yugoslavia, from

 4     the VJ army, about crimes committed in Sarajevo against Muslims.  So

 5     let's leave the universe of official reporting.  Okay.  Let's leave that

 6     universe now.

 7             During the war, did you receive any information at all about

 8     crimes committed by Serb forces against Muslims in Sarajevo?

 9        A.   As far as I remember, there was no official information that came

10     our way.  There were reports in the media, but those were quite

11     contradictory.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Gajic, you're saying as far as you remember,

13     there was no official information.  The question is, forget about

14     official information; you're being asked about information from anywhere.

15     It does not have to be official.  Try to listen to the question, and try

16     to answer the question as succinctly as you possibly can.

17             Mr. Saxon is no longer talking about official reports now or

18     official information.  He's talking about any information.  It could be

19     from the newspaper, from the radio, from TV, from gossip, from anywhere.

20             You can answer.

21             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can try to be of

23     assistance.  When one says "information" in the Serbian language, it

24     sounds official.  The word -- the word "information" itself in the

25     Serbian language sounds like an official document, and that is why I

Page 10957

 1     think it is a good idea that you, Your Honour, have explained to the

 2     witness.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]... information cannot be a

 4     document.  And I don't know B/C/S, but I can't leave that the word

 5     "information" can mean a document.  I'm surprised that it actually means

 6     "official."

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the Serbian language the word is

 8     often used in that sense, meaning an official report.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what -- what do you say in the Serbian

10     language if you want to talk about unofficial information?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "Did you have any indication."

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indication.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Or knowledge.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Anyway, we've explained the question to the

15     witness.  I think the witness can answer.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I thank you for this

17     intervention.  I understand the question.  The answer is, yes, there were

18     reports in the media.  It was from the media that we gleaned [realtime

19     transcript read in error "cleaned"] our earliest information regarding

20     the crimes in Srebrenica.

21             MR. SAXON:

22        Q.   General Gajic, I'm asking you now to focus on information

23     regarding crimes in Sarajevo.  That's what I've been asking you about.

24     So let's stay with Sarajevo, please.  Okay?

25             I'll ask the question this way:  Did you receive any - I'm afraid

Page 10958

 1     to use the word now - information or indications in the media or other

 2     unofficial sources about crimes committed by Serb forces against Muslims

 3     in Sarajevo?

 4        A.   Sir, we have the media reports, but we also had intelligence

 5     about the situation in Sarajevo, the siege of Sarajevo, the fighting

 6     between the Muslim armed forces and the VRS.  As for --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Gajic, can I ask you to please listen to the

 8     question and answer the question that is asked.  Now, again you're

 9     bringing us back to official information now, because you are now saying,

10     Sir, we have the media reports, but we also had the intelligence.

11             Forget about intelligence, because that's official information.

12     You're being asked about unofficial information, and please stick to

13     that.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And thank you for your

17     intervention.

18             There were media reports, and it could be seen on TV, things

19     about the crimes that were shown there.

20             MR. SAXON:

21        Q.   Could you be a little bit more specific, sir.  What things could

22     be seen on television?

23        A.   Specifically the Markale incident, but there were conflicting

24     reports, and it was difficult to understand what exactly had occurred

25     there.  That much I remember.

Page 10959

 1        Q.   Are you referring to the Markale incident in August of 1995?

 2        A.   Yes, that is right, sir.

 3        Q.   Prior to August of 1995, let's go back to, let's say, 1992, 1993,

 4     1994, beginning of 1995.  Did you see any reports on television -- excuse

 5     me, any indications on television indicating that crimes might be

 6     committed, were being committed in Sarajevo.

 7        A.   Sir, I don't remember that.  From 1993 to April 1994, I was not

 8     in the security administration.  I had a different post elsewhere, and I

 9     really don't remember.

10        Q.   Sir, the questions I'm asking you have nothing to do with where

11     you were working at the time.  I'm asking you about what you saw on

12     television.  I'm talking about unofficial information, unofficial

13     indications.  So my question for you is:  During 1992, 1993, 1994, first

14     half of 1995, did you see indications on television that Serbian forces

15     might be committing crimes against Muslims in Sarajevo?

16        A.   Sir, apart from Markale, I had no other knowledge.

17        Q.   Very well.  Let's turn our minds to the events in Srebrenica.

18     General Gajic, during the war - so that would be now through Dayton, the

19     end of 1995 - did you receive any official reports -- actually, I should

20     back up just so we can do this as clearly as possible.

21             In your testimony yesterday, you confirmed that you never

22     received any official intelligence reports about crimes in Srebrenica.

23     So my question for you now, sir, is:  During the war, did you receive any

24     official reports from VJ units or organs outside the intelligence organs

25     describing crimes committed by Serb forces against Muslims in Srebrenica?

Page 10960

 1        A.   Sir, not as far as I remember, not a single one.

 2        Q.   During the war did you receive any official reports from other

 3     FRY institutions or agencies apart from the VJ describing crimes

 4     committed by Serb forces against Muslims in Srebrenica?

 5        A.   Sir, not as far as I remember.

 6        Q.   Let's go into the realm now of unofficial information or

 7     unofficial indications.  During the war did you receive any unofficial

 8     information or indications about crimes committed by Serb forces against

 9     Muslims in Srebrenica?

10        A.   Yes, sir, again from the media.

11        Q.   And what information did you receive?

12        A.   Sir, as far as I remember, one of the foreign news agencies, I

13     believe sometime around July, it's very difficult for me to pinpoint the

14     exact point in time, spoke to one of the eyewitnesses, and then the

15     witness described the crimes in Srebrenica and stated what he knew about

16     them.

17        Q.   And this information in the news media came to your attention at

18     that time?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand that question, sir.  The

20     witness has just told you what he heard --

21             MR. SAXON:  Very well, sir.  Absolutely right, sir.  It's Friday.

22        Q.   And what did you do with this information when you received it?

23        A.   Sir, those were individual indications, unverified at the time.

24     Quite simply, I found it difficult when I read that, when I familiarised

25     myself with that, to even believe it.  I simply could not bring myself to

Page 10961

 1     believe that anything like that had happened.  There was a lot of

 2     conflicting coverage and reports in the press and in the media, generally

 3     speaking.  It was very difficult to wade through all that conflicting

 4     information at the time and arrive at an accurate assessment of the

 5     situation.

 6        Q.   And what did you do with that conflicting coverage and reports in

 7     the media if -- did you do anything with it?

 8        A.   Sir, no, we didn't.  This wasn't a counter-intelligence issue, if

 9     I may put it that way.  This would have been the subject of an

10     intelligence report, and that was for other bodies such as the judicial

11     bodies, and so on and so forth.

12        Q.   I want to make sure I understand your evidence when you say this

13     wasn't a counter-intelligence issue.

14             The report -- the media report or the information that you

15     received was that a large number of Muslims had been killed by Serb

16     forces in around Srebrenica; is that right?

17        A.   That's what the media claimed, yes.

18        Q.   Srebrenica is close, geographically close to the border of the

19     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Isn't that right?

20        A.   That's right, sir.

21        Q.   When large numbers of people are killed, that often leads to

22     additional humanitarian problems, like flows of refugees.

23        A.   That is right, sir.

24        Q.   And a big part of your job was assessing information, wasn't it?

25        A.   That's right, sir.

Page 10962

 1        Q.   And wouldn't it have been relevant to the security of the state

 2     of the FRY that there might be additional humanitarian problems so close

 3     to the FRY border?

 4        A.   That is right, sir.  This would have constituted a humanitarian

 5     problem, but quite certainly also a security problem.

 6        Q.   So how is it that you say that this was not an issue related to

 7     counter-intelligence?

 8        A.   Well, sir, only insofar as what I explained yesterday about the

 9     Muslim soldiers escaping from Zepa into Serbia's territory.  Had that

10     been the case with Srebrenica, it no doubt would have constituted a

11     security problem, and security officials would have been there to make

12     sure those people were adequately taken care of and put up, those fleeing

13     the Srebrenica area.

14             As far as the Srebrenica area itself was concerned, of course we

15     were following the situation to make sure whether there would be waves of

16     refugees that we would then be treating in keeping with International Law

17     of War and all the other humanitarian laws on conventions.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would that be an appropriate time, or would you

19     like to ask that one question?

20             MR. SAXON:  I'm so sorry, Your Honour, but may I ask that one

21     question, please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

23             MR. SAXON:

24        Q.   So -- then I'll ask you again, sir, a question I asked a few

25     moments ago.  Are you saying you did nothing with this information, as

Page 10963

 1     conflicting as it might have been?  Is that your evidence?

 2        A.   That's what I said, sir.  I also said that it would have been

 3     other bodies that would have been in charge of reacting to something like

 4     that, primarily the judicial bodies, but also the VRS, as well as other

 5     bodies at a later stage.

 6             MR. SAXON:  Shall we take the first break, Your Honour?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take the break and come back at quarter to

 8     11.00.  Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

12             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, before I continue, there is a small

13     error in the transcript that I'd like to ask to be changed.  This is at

14     page 23, line 10, and the witness is speaking about reports in the media,

15     and in the transcript, English transcript, it says, "It was from the

16     media that we cleaned our earliest information," and I think that should

17     be "gleaned" with a G as opposed to a C.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

19             MR. SAXON:

20        Q.   General Gajic, before the break we were talking about these media

21     reports related to the events in Srebrenica that -- that reached you in

22     July of 1995.  Can you tell us, sir, did -- did any person or part of the

23     VJ General Staff act on these reports?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 26, line 4.  The witness

Page 10964

 1     answered that information in a foreign publication was published sometime

 2     in July 1995, but he didn't say when he heard that information, and now

 3     the Prosecutor is implying as if he had heard about it in July.

 4             MR. SAXON:  Well, Your Honour --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.

 6             MR. SAXON:  I was actually instructed by the Bench earlier that

 7     the witness had -- had said that there were foreign news agencies, I

 8     believe sometime around July, and the witness described the crimes in

 9     Srebrenica and stated what he knew about them, and you, yourself,

10     Your Honour, indicated to me that I didn't need to ask the witness

11     whether that came to his attention at the time.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, where are you reading now?

13             MR. SAXON:  Page 26.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Line?

15             MR. SAXON:  Beginning at line 2.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What did I say?  When -- when did the Bench

17     instruct you to --

18             MR. SAXON:  Line 10, Your Honour, when I asked what was, in fact,

19     a redundant question, and you politely urged me to move on.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  And I didn't indicate when he had heard.

21     When he had heard, he mentions himself in the answer at line 2 -- at

22     line 4.

23             MR. SAXON:  Correct, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  I'll tell you what my problem is with your

25     question, Mr. Saxon.  Just give me a moment.

Page 10965

 1             At page 28, starting at line 6, the witness has told you what

 2     they did.  He says:

 3             "As far as the Srebrenica area itself was concerned, of course we

 4     were following the situation to make sure whether there would be waves of

 5     refugees that we would then be treating in keeping with International Law

 6     of War and all the other humanitarian laws on conventions."

 7             Then you said at line 16:

 8             "So then I'll ask you again, sir, a question I asked you a few

 9     moments ago.  Are you saying you did nothing with this information?"

10             Now he's just told you what they did, you know, and your current

11     question is still going in that line; you still want to know what they

12     did.  He has told you what they did, unless you want to say that they do

13     anything else in addition to what he has already told you.

14             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   In --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I read your ruling on

18     page 26, line 10, in relation to what I said a minute ago.  Nevertheless,

19     I stand by my previous objection.  If you could please test that again.

20     I'm trying to see what Mr. Saxon actually wanted to ask.

21             You see at lines 4 through 7, the answer that we see there.

22     Perhaps it's not a good idea to say this in front of the witness, but the

23     answer doesn't show what Mr. Saxon is implying in his question.

24             "[In English] Sir, as far as I remember, one of the foreign news

25     agencies, I believe sometime around July.  It's very difficult for me to

Page 10966

 1     pinpoint the exact point in time, spoke to the one of eyewitness, and

 2     then the witness described the crimes in Srebrenica and the state."

 3             [Interpretation] He talks about a conversation with this witness

 4     that was published in July, but he never actually said when he found out

 5     about it.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fair enough.  So you want Mr. Saxon to find out

 7     when he found out.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why can't you do that in re-examination if he

10     doesn't know how to find that?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, because in this question

12     Mr. Saxon is putting it to the witness that he heard that in July,

13     whereas in -- in fact the witness's answer does not suggest that.  I'm

14     talking about Mr. Saxon's last question.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

16             MR. SAXON:

17        Q.   General Gajic, earlier today you referred to a foreign media

18     report sometime in July of 1995 about the events around Srebrenica.  Do

19     you recall when you saw or heard that foreign media report?

20        A.   Sir, as far as I remember, and again I have to say I can't

21     pinpoint the date, but it might have been 10 or 15 days later, before I

22     had an opportunity to read that.  I'm not sure if it was one of the

23     printed media in the FRY that carried the report or not.  I'm not

24     certain.  Nevertheless, it did occur at least 10 to 15 days later, after

25     the foreign news agency first published the account.

Page 10967

 1             I'm not sure if I --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Gajic, 10 or 15 days later than what?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after the foreign news

 4     agency first published the account, 10 or 15 days later, a newspaper from

 5     the FRY also carried the account of this eyewitness who described the

 6     crimes in Srebrenica.  I'm not sure if that makes it any clearer.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Until we know when the foreign media carried it

 8     out, we are not able to add 10 or 15 days later.  So if you tell us when

 9     the foreign media reported that news, then we can add 10 or 15 days later

10     to -- to determine when you became aware of it.

11             Are you able to tell us when the foreign media reported the news?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I remember,

13     sometime after the 20th of July.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's satisfactory?

15             MR. SAXON:  That's as far as we can go, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             MR. SAXON:  Okay.  Can we move into -- actually, one moment,

18     please.

19        Q.   Do you know, General Gajic, after these reports appeared in the

20     media in Belgrade, do you know whether particular organs in the VJ

21     General Staff took any particular measures with respect to these reports?

22        A.   Sir, not as far as I remember.  It was a different country.

23     Republika Srpska was a different country.  It had its own judiciary, its

24     own army, and this would have been something for them to deal with.  It

25     was certainly beyond our own remit.

Page 10968

 1             MR. SAXON:  Can we move into private session, please,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10969

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

22             MR. SAXON:  Can we show the witness what is D268, please.

23        Q.   You'll recall, General Gajic, that Mr. Lukic discussed this

24     document with you yesterday.  It was at page 29 of the LiveNote, lines 1

25     through 9.

Page 10970

 1             MR. SAXON:  And can we go to the next page, please, in both

 2     languages.

 3        Q.   This has to do with the role of foreign mercenaries fighting

 4     against the Serbian people.  Do you recall?

 5        A.   I do, sir.

 6        Q.   And starting at the first line of page 29, this is what you said,

 7     you said:

 8             "So this discusses the role of Croatia in the illegal arming and

 9     making it possible for foreign mercenaries to cross its territory and use

10     their civilian and military infrastructure in order to reach Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina by illegal channels even before the clashes ever broke out in

12     1992 over in Bosnia and Herzegovina and even before Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina became an independent country."

14             And then you said at line 9:

15             "So Croatia was counter-acting the resolutions of the Security

16     Council."

17             Do you recall that testimony?

18        A.   I do, sir.

19        Q.   General, is it your position that in March, April, early May

20     1992, the JNA was essentially a neutral player in the escalating conflict

21     between the ethnic Serb and Muslim communities in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22        A.   Sir, yes.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness what is Exhibit P164,

25     please.

Page 10971

 1        Q.   We see here a cover sheet dated the 10th of December, 1991, from

 2     the Federal Secretariat for National Defence.  This is being sent to the

 3     commander of the 9th corps, and it says:

 4             "We hereby enclose the directive of the Federal Secretary for

 5     National Defence on the use of the armed forces in the forthcoming

 6     period."

 7             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to the next page, please.

 8        Q.   And you'll see, General Gajic, we see this is entitled the same

 9     title, the directive:

10             "The directive on the use of the armed forces for the preparation

11     and performance of combat operations in the forthcoming period."

12             MR. SAXON:  Can we go first to the last page in both versions and

13     focus on the bottom.

14        Q.   You'll see, General Gajic, this directive comes from army General

15     Veljko Kadijevic.

16        A.   Yes, I'm following.

17             MR. SAXON:  Can we please go to page 3 in both languages, please.

18        Q.   General, I'd like you to focus on the paragraph underneath II

19     which says the following:

20             "Our armed forces are entering a new period of exceptional

21     significance for accomplishing the ultimate aims of the war:  protection

22     of the Serbian population, a peaceful resolution of the Yugoslav crisis,

23     and the creation of conditions in which Yugoslavia may be preserved for

24     those peoples that wish to live in it."

25             General Kadijevic did not mention the protection of the Croat

Page 10972

 1     population, did he?

 2        A.   No, but I have an explanation for that.

 3        Q.   General Kadijevic did not mention the protection of the Muslim

 4     population, did he?

 5        A.   No, but I have an explanation for it.

 6        Q.   And so by the end of 1991 - this is December now - the JNA had

 7     evolved from a multi-ethnic military force whose purpose was the

 8     protection of all peoples in Yugoslavia into a military force whose

 9     purpose it was to protect Serbian interests.  Do you agree?

10        A.   No, I do not.

11             MR. SAXON:  Can we show the witness what is Exhibit P185.

12        Q.   General Gajic, this document dated the 20th of March, 1992, it's

13     directed to the attention of the Chief of the General Staff.  It's from

14     the command of the 2nd Military District.  That would have been the JNA's

15     military district that would have included Sarajevo; correct?

16        A.   Correct, sir.

17        Q.   It's from Commander, General Milutin Kukanjac, and on the cover

18     page it says:

19             "Enclosed with the document, please find the requested assessment

20     with annexes concerning the situation and problems in the territory of

21     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."

22             Can you take --

23             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to the next page, please.  And the next

24     page.

25        Q.   I'd like to give you a moment to review that first page.  If we

Page 10973

 1     can, at the very top of that page under "General comments," it says:

 2             "Attached to this evaluation please find the following maps:

 3             "Deployment of the JNA volunteer units in the zone of the 2nd

 4     VO ..?"

 5             "VO" stands for "military district;" is that right?

 6        A.   That's right, sir.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Can we go to the next page in both languages, please.

 8     And here I'd like to correct an error in the English translation.  Can we

 9     scroll down in the B/C/S version, please.  Can we go up in the B/C/S

10     version then.  If we could go forward one more page in B/C/S, please.

11     Okay.  And if we could focus on paragraph 3.

12        Q.   General, you'll see towards the bottom of paragraph 3(a), we see

13     a date there.  It's about four lines up from the bottom of the paragraph,

14     and in your version it says 3 to 4 March 1992, doesn't it?

15        A.   Correct, sir.

16             MR. SAXON:  So, Your Honours, in that same paragraph where it

17     says 3 to 4 April, that's an error; it should actually say March.

18             And if we can please turn to page --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where does the correction come from?  Why do you

20     want to change this to March?  How did this error come about?

21             MR. SAXON:  The error is in the English translation, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, okay.

23             MR. SAXON:  It says April.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

25             MR. SAXON:  And the witness has clarified that it's March.

Page 10974

 1     That's all.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 3             MR. SAXON:  That's all.  If we can please turn to page 6 in the

 4     English and page 8 in the B/C/S version, please.  Actually, can we scroll

 5     up in English, please.  And can we go back one page in B/C/S.  Thank you.

 6     And focus on the bottom of the page.  There we go.

 7        Q.   General, you'll see there the number 5 in parentheses, and it

 8     says, "Volunteer forces in the 2nd Military District zone ..."  Are you

 9     with me?

10        A.   Yes, I'm with you.

11        Q.   First it says:

12             "The volunteer units in the 2nd Military District zone are

13     indicated on the map and in the legend in great detail.  In this

14     connection, the following should also be pointed out:  The listed units

15     are organised in companies, detachments and battalions."

16             And it says, then, in subparagraph (b):

17             "The enlisted men number 69.198."

18             Do you see that?

19        A.   I do, sir.

20        Q.   Can we briefly leave this document -- actually, no.  Stay here

21     for a moment, I think.

22             Under (c) it says:

23             "No volunteers are potential conscripts for the regular units of

24     the 2nd Military District, and only a small number are from the

25     Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  In other words, the

Page 10975

 1     volunteer units are not part of the JNA and the TO establishment

 2     structure."

 3        A.   Sir, I apologise.  RJ is not an abbreviation for regular units

 4     but wartime units.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.  And are you following me with the rest of

 6     subparagraph (c)?

 7        A.   I have followed.

 8        Q.   These volunteer units were not part of the JNA or the TO

 9     establishment structure because these were Bosnian Serb volunteers.

10     Isn't that right?

11        A.   I don't know, sir, what the actual personnel were, but I know

12     that according to the rules in force at the time in the Yugoslav People's

13     Army, it was lawful to form volunteer units.

14        Q.   All right.  Well, let's keep moving here.  If you take a look at

15     subparagraph (d), it refers to numbers of men in the corps zones, and

16     then we see in subparagraph (f):

17             "The JNA has distributed 51.900 weapons (75 per cent), and the

18     SDS 17.298."

19             We're talking about distribution of weapons to Bosnian Serb

20     volunteers, aren't we?

21        A.   I've already answered that question, sir, regarding the

22     composition of the personnel and the rules of the Yugoslav People's Army.

23        Q.   Isn't your evidence, General Gajic, that the JNA at this time was

24     distributing weapons to Muslims and Croats?

25        A.   Sir, I do not have the necessary information, so I'm unable to

Page 10976

 1     answer that question.

 2        Q.   Subparagraph (g) says:

 3             "In Sarajevo, 300 automatic rifles have been distributed so far

 4     to retired officers (reliable ones), and in the next 3 to 4 days another

 5     100 people will be armed ..."

 6             If we go back up the page a little bit to this number, the

 7     enlisted men number, 69.198, these enlisted men eventually became part of

 8     the Army of Republika Srpska, didn't they?

 9        A.   Sir, I don't know.  Probably.  Probably the number were included,

10     but whether they all were, I don't know.  I don't have the necessary

11     information.

12        Q.   Okay.  Focus on this number in subparagraph (b):

13             "The enlisted men number 69.198."

14             Keep that number in your mind for a moment, please.

15             MR. SAXON:  Can we show the witness Exhibit P186.

16        Q.   This is a -- part of the legend to General Kadijevic's [sic]

17     directive, and if you just take a look at the total in the column on the

18     right, you see the -- we see the word "TOTAL" in all capital letters and

19     then the number 69.198.  Do you see that?

20        A.   Yes, I see it, sir.

21        Q.   And it's broken down -- if you take a look at the -- I don't --

22     the first seven to ten municipalities on this legend, they are all

23     municipalities in the Sarajevo area, aren't they?

24        A.   Not all of them, sir.

25        Q.   All right.  The first seven?

Page 10977

 1        A.   Yes, the first seven are.

 2        Q.   But we see that there are also men available in other parts of

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina, for example, number 52, Banja Luka, 2.000 men.

 4     Do you see that?

 5        A.   Yes, I do, sir.

 6        Q.   Sanski Most, 1.000 men, et cetera.  These are the volunteer units

 7     that were mentioned in the previous document as are indicated in the

 8     legend.

 9             MR. SAXON:  I see my colleague is on his feet.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether Mr. Saxon made a

12     mistake on page 42, line 5, when he said that this document was an

13     attachment to the directive of the General Kadijevic.  I think it's an

14     attachment to General Kukanjac's document.  I think.  I am not sure.

15             MR. SAXON:  I'm grateful to Mr. Lukic for that correction.  He's

16     absolutely right.  I misspoke.  It is an attachment to P185, which was

17     the document from General Kukanjac.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. SAXON:

21        Q.   Now, these documents were produced in March of 1992, and it's

22     true, isn't it, that prior to the outbreak of hostilities, Bosnian Serb

23     forces, you can call them volunteer, what you will, were supported by the

24     JNA's provision of weaponry and material to the Bosnian Serbs?

25        A.   Sir, as far as I saw and concluded, these were volunteer units,

Page 10978

 1     and I told you what I had to say about volunteer units.  But allow me to

 2     say something, because you didn't give me a chance to do that in answer

 3     to a couple of your questions.  I said yes, but I have an explanation.

 4             You have given me quite a lot of information here.

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   I may continue.

 7             I think causes and effects have been confused here.  I have been

 8     following very carefully what you have been saying, but in the reports

 9     and the assessments that you have shown, you have left out some very

10     significant segments which refer to an assessment of the situation in the

11     territory of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina and the position that the

12     Yugoslav People's Army found itself in, and all the measures that were

13     taken were preventive measures, because all our assessments and

14     indubitable evidence showed that both in Croatia and Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina a war was in the offing and being prepared against the JNA.

16     We may, if you feel it necessary, to analyse these documents, looking at

17     them from this other side, if I can put it that way.

18        Q.   If my colleague wants to discuss angles from the other side, he

19     can certainly do that on re-direct examination.  But you describe these

20     measures taken by the Yugoslav People's Army as preventive measures.

21     Within this concept of preventive measures, would that include assisting

22     units, Bosnian Serb units, in driving out non-Serbs from communities such

23     as Bijeljina, Zvornik, and Visegrad?

24        A.   Sir, that was not the plan or the order or the project of the

25     JNA.  Quite the contrary, in fact.  There is incontrovertible evidence to

Page 10979

 1     the contrary.  In Croatia, both Croats and Serbs who were facing threats

 2     took refuge in JNA barracks.  There is, I repeat, hard incontrovertible

 3     evidence to that effect.

 4        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to show --

 5             MR. SAXON:  Actually, I can't show the witness something.

 6        Q.   I'm going to read some evidence that this Chamber has received,

 7     General?

 8             MR. SAXON:  And, Your Honour, without giving the source of this

 9     evidence, it is Exhibit P80.  It's a public exhibit.  And I'm going to

10     read from paragraphs 63, 65, and 67.

11        Q.   General, according to one witness in this case, there was a

12     specific chronology in this sequence of events, referring to events in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina in the first part of 1992.

14             "Similar things had occurred in Bijeljina, Zvornik, and also in

15     Visegrad."

16             MR. SAXON:  Can we please take this off the screen, please.  I

17     didn't ask that this -- thank you.

18        Q.   "And also in Visegrad, although I was not familiar to which

19     extent this had occurred in Visegrad.  The volunteers would first come to

20     a certain place and then the killings, liquidations, the intimidation of

21     the population, panic, and so forth would follow.  Then the JNA would

22     come in with the ostensible intention of establishing order.  However,

23     all this would frighten the Muslim population, and they would be

24     ethnically cleansed.  The fact that the army arrived in Bratunac two or

25     three days after the volunteers points to the fact that the same pattern

Page 10980

 1     of events would be followed in Bratunac.  All these events were conceived

 2     with the goal of enabling the Serbs to take over power, and all this was

 3     connected with the implementation of plan A and plan B and the creation

 4     of Republika Srpska."

 5             From the same witness, paragraph 65:

 6             "The first part of events is related to April 1992 and the

 7     municipalities of Zvornik, Bijeljina, Bratunac, Visegrad, and Srebrenica,

 8     and must be linked to the moving out of the population.  These events, in

 9     effect, led to the population moving away from the Podrinje region.  I'm

10     absolutely convinced that none of these events were accidental.  All the

11     events had been planned."

12             And from paragraph 67:

13             "The conduct of the JNA, which was the official army at the time,

14     also bears out this thesis.  The JNA remained in Bosnia until 15 May.  It

15     was clear that the JNA placed itself on the side of the Serbs and that it

16     assisted in implementing the plan."

17             Don't you agree, General Gajic, that by May 1992, the JNA was

18     assisting Bosnian Serb forces in the ethnic cleansing of non-Serb

19     communities in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20        A.   Sir, I disagree.  The portions of the statement that you quote

21     contradict what Mr. Lukic was questioning me about yesterday in relation

22     to the order of the BH Presidency, dated the 27th of April, and the order

23     of the commander of the TO staff and interior minister of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated the 29th of April, 1992, declaring war on the

25     JNA, after which all of the JNA barracks and installations were besieged.

Page 10981

 1     Therefore, according to this statement, even if the JNA had wanted to

 2     leave, it simply couldn't have left because all the roads out were

 3     blocked.  Therefore, this statement is contradictory.  I can understand

 4     that though.  This is no more than a single person's account.

 5        Q.   Do you think, sir, that the provision of arms to the SDS

 6     political party was a method to prevent violence that was used by the

 7     JNA?  That's what General Kukanjac described in Exhibit P185.  Was that

 8     another preventive measure to stop war from breaking out?

 9        A.   Sir, the statement that was made that the weapons were partly

10     distributed also to members of the SDS is possible.  I would say those

11     were military conscripts who received weapons, and politically they were

12     in favour of the SDS.  In a political sense, though, the JNA, and I don't

13     think I should be repeating this, saw its hand forced by the Bosnian

14     leadership, all the other institutions and the paramilitary formations

15     involved.  The JNA, and I think I can say that because I was near the

16     very top of the hierarchy in the security administration, never meant to

17     stir up ethnic hatred.  We were and have remained a multi-ethnic army,

18     and we loved all of the ethnic groups in the former JNA.  We were brought

19     up in that spirit.

20        Q.   And because the JNA, as you put it --

21             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note:  In the former Yugoslavia,

22     not the former JNA.

23             MR. SAXON:

24        Q.   And because the JNA, as you put it, saw its hand forced it

25     decided to arm Bosnian Serb units in Bosnia and Herzegovina in early

Page 10982

 1     1992.  Isn't that right?

 2        A.   Sir, objectively speaking, the Serbs were the ethnic group in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina that was in jeopardy at the time.  In 1990, the

 4     Muslims had established the People's Patriotic League across

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, although formally they advocated a peaceful political

 6     solution to the problems in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In actual fact, as we

 7     saw yesterday, they opted for war.

 8        Q.   Can I interrupt, General.  I'm going to stop you now.  So then

 9     can I take your response --

10        A.   I do apologise.

11        Q.   It's all right.  Can I take your response, then, to my question

12     as a yes?

13        A.   Yes.  You can tell by looking at this that part of the weapons

14     were distributed to Serbs, and to some extent those were volunteers

15     units.  The people described here as the SDS were people who had their

16     wartime assignments to wartime units, but their presence was not required

17     in the army and they were taken off this war roster.  That was the normal

18     procedure.  Volunteer units were now set up, which, under the rules that

19     applied in the JNA at the time, was allowed.

20        Q.   And the military leadership of the JNA approved this policy of

21     arming the Bosnian Serb volunteer units, because, as you put it, their

22     hand was forced.

23        A.   Yes.  That was the reaction, but the JNA was in favour of a

24     political solution and a peaceful withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina, as was in fact later the case in the Republic of Macedonia.

Page 10983

 1        Q.   Now, earlier we looked at a document that was Exhibit D268, the

 2     document about foreign mercenaries, and with respect to that document,

 3     you made the comment that Croatia was involved in illegal arming and that

 4     Croatia was counteracting the Resolutions of the Security Council.

 5             With respect to the arming of the Bosnian Serb units by the JNA,

 6     the same could be said for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at the

 7     time, couldn't it?  It was counteracting the Resolutions of the UN

 8     Security Council?

 9        A.   Sir, Croatia was an internationally recognised country.  Bosnian

10     Serbs were an ethnic group within Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The

11     international recognition did not come before the 7th of April, 1992, and

12     they were a group in jeopardy at the time.  I see this as a substantial

13     distinction.

14        Q.   All right.  And, effectively, beginning in late 1991 or early

15     1992, the political and military leadership of the Federal Republic of

16     Yugoslavia determined to do whatever it could to protect the Bosnian

17     Serbs.  Isn't that right?

18        A.   Sir, can you please repeat the question.  I'm not sure you were

19     sufficiently specific.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe the confusion stems from the

21     period of time specified here.  There is mention there of the Federal

22     Republic of Yugoslavia, and we know that it had not been established

23     before May that year.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I hope it's not asking too

25     much, could you please repeat the question.

Page 10984

 1             MR. SAXON:

 2        Q.   It's not asking too much.  It's fine.

 3             By early 1992, it was the policy of the political and military

 4     leadership of the -- what was still then the Socialist Federal Republic

 5     of Yugoslavia to do whatever was possible to protect the Bosnian Serbs.

 6        A.   Sir, the JNA and the military leadership at the time had as their

 7     main objective the preservation of the SFRY.  They wanted to leave it to

 8     the politicians to decide on its future.  Objectively speaking,

 9     Croatia Serbs were the group at the time facing the greatest jeopardy.

10     Following Croatia's declaration of independence, the first law that was

11     adopted was a set of amendments to the constitution defining the Serbs as

12     an ethnic minority; whereas previously they had been defined as a

13     constituent nation.  Needless to say, the Serbs were not consulted on

14     this occasion.

15        Q.   All right.  Let me try to ask my question a bit more

16     specifically.

17             The -- by early 1992, the JNA was carrying out a state policy to

18     do whatever was possible to assist and protect the Serbs in the Republika

19     Srpska Krajina; right?

20        A.   Yes, sir.  I would not like to repeat myself, but they were the

21     group that was more at risk than any other group at the time.

22        Q.   And at the same time, the JNA was carrying out a state policy to

23     do whatever was possible to assist and protect the Serbs in Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina.  Isn't that right?

25        A.   Sir, the JNA had its primary objective the task of keeping

Page 10985

 1     clashes from breaking out between the three ethnic groups that had up to

 2     that point in time lived side by side peacefully in a single country for

 3     50 years.  Nevertheless, political factors and a number of other

 4     influences at the time kept that from happening.  What that eventually

 5     led to, regrettably, was an enormous tragedy for everyone involved.

 6        Q.   I fully agree with that, General, but can I take your response to

 7     my question to be a yes?

 8        A.   Yes, that can be taken to be an affirmative answer, especially in

 9     conjunction with the explanations that I have provided previously.

10        Q.   All right.  And this state policy continued even when the SFRY

11     became the FRY, and that state policy continued, really, throughout 1992,

12     1993, and until the Dayton Peace Accords at the end of 1995.  Isn't that

13     right?

14        A.   Yes, sir.  Yugoslavia state and military leadership advocated a

15     peaceful solution, and they consistently backed all the peace initiatives

16     of the international community.

17        Q.   The policy I was referring to was the policy to do whatever was

18     possible to assist the Serbian populations in Republika Srpska Krajina

19     and the Republika Srpska.  That's the policy I was referring to, sir.  So

20     my question was, the JNA and then later the VJ, continued to carry out

21     that policy until the end of the war, until the Dayton Peace Accords in

22     late 1995.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, just because of the

25     significance of this particular question and answer, could we please

Page 10986

 1     specify what policy we are talking about.  This question has been

 2     dragging on for some time, and I think the witness should be told in no

 3     uncertain terms which period of time is in question and in what way the

 4     SFRY Presidency gave its backing to Republika Srpska.

 5             MR. SAXON:  I think the witness, first of all, has answered my

 6     question with respect to the first part of 1992.  The policy, I stated

 7     very clearly in my question, it's at line 25 of page 50, onto line 1 of

 8     page 51, but I will repeat the question.

 9        Q.   General, with respect to this state policy to try and assist and

10     protect the Serbian communities in the Republika Srpska and the Republika

11     Srpska Krajina, that remained state policy of the Federal Republic of

12     Yugoslavia through the end of the war in 1995, through the Dayton Peace

13     Accords, didn't it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And the JNA, and then later the VJ, continued then to carry out

16     that state policy through the end of the war; right?

17        A.   Sir, I think I have answered that.

18        Q.   But I need -- well, just so the record's clear, is the answer

19     "Yes"?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the VJ's efforts to carry out this state policy to protect,

22     Serb populations in Republika Srpska Krajina and the Republika Srpska,

23     that included, for example, the deploying -- or transferring of officers

24     from the VJ to the armies of the Republika Srpska and the Army of

25     Republika Srpska Krajina, didn't it?

Page 10987

 1        A.   Sir, I think I explained that yesterday, but I'll repeat anyway.

 2             There were several different categories of officers in the VRS.

 3     As far as the VJ is concerned, it was on a voluntary basis that officers

 4     were seconded to the VRS, specifically those who had been born in

 5     Republika Srpska and were serving in the VJ.  The same applied to any

 6     other members of the VJ who of their own free will chose to go to the

 7     VRS.

 8        Q.   Pause there, please.  But it was the -- it was the policy --

 9     became the policy and the programme of the VJ to facilitate and permit

10     these secondments of officers; right?

11        A.   No, sir.  That was a decision taken by the Supreme Defence

12     Council and all the other supreme state bodies, including the FRY

13     parliament.  General Staff of the VJ was the body that executed all these

14     decisions and orders.

15        Q.   Very well.  So it was the General Staff of the VJ that executed

16     these policies.

17        A.   Yes, that is right.

18        Q.   And --

19        A.   Those decisions.

20        Q.   Yes.  And the state policy to protect and assist the -- actually,

21     let me step back for a moment.

22             The VJ's efforts to carry out this state policy to protect Serb

23     populations in the Republika Srpska Krajina and the Republika Srpska also

24     included, for example, the sending of large quantities of materiel,

25     weapons, ammunition, fuel, medical supplies to the Army of Republika

Page 10988

 1     Srpska and the army of the Serbian Republic of Krajina; right?

 2        A.   Sir, if you mean military aid, the answer is yes.  Again,

 3     pursuant to decisions taken by the appropriate state bodies, the supreme

 4     state bodies.  We never tried to conceal that.  It was a matter of public

 5     record.

 6        Q.   And it would have been extremely difficult for the VRS and the

 7     SVK to conduct their own activities during the war without these

 8     different kinds of assistance received from the VJ.  Isn't that right?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  This is asking the

11     witness to speculate.

12             MR. SAXON:  This witness is a career military officer,

13     Your Honour, who was there at the time, and he should be able to at least

14     provide his belief or opinion on this.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is he giving evidence as a military expert?

16             MR. SAXON:  He is not giving his evidence as a military expert,

17     Your Honour, but he is --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're asking for his personal opinion.

19             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness is a security officer,

21     and now his opinion is being elicited on materiel aid and its possible

22     significance to the VRS and the SVK, two altogether different armies.  I

23     think what this leads to is pure speculation.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon says he's not asking him as an expert,

25     so he's not asking him as a security officer in the VJ but just his

Page 10989

 1     opinion as a military officer, and of course he's quite free to say he's

 2     able to answer the question or not able to answer that question.  So your

 3     objection is overruled.

 4             MR. SAXON:

 5        Q.   Shall I repeat my question, General Gajic?

 6        A.   Yes, please, sir.

 7        Q.   It would have been extremely difficult for the VRS and the SVK to

 8     conduct their own activities during the war without these different kinds

 9     of assistance received from the Army of Yugoslavia.  Isn't that right?

10        A.   Sir, I disagree.  I believe the VRS had sufficient material

11     resources available to it to engage in all their activities.

12             There is another thing.  I'm not sure how much you know about

13     Serbs.  Serbs tend to be able to find their way around and get places.

14     Had it not been for the aid, they would have found another way to do what

15     they were trying to do.  Therefore, I don't think that was essential to

16     their activity, at least not as enshrined in your original question.

17        Q.   But because of the aid that came from the VJ, there was no need

18     to, as you put it, find another way to do what they were trying to do;

19     right?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered the

22     question, on page 54, line 18 and 19.

23             MR. SAXON:  I think I'm asking a different question, Your Honour,

24     based on the response of the witness.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  After that answer at page 54 the witness said

Page 10990

 1     something else that prompted the question you asked.  He said they would

 2     have other ways of finding aid elsewhere.  So that's a follow-up on that

 3     answer.

 4             Objection overruled.

 5             MR. SAXON:

 6        Q.   General Gajic, because of the aid that came from the VJ, there

 7     was no need to, as you put it, for the VRS and the SVK to find another

 8     way to do what they were trying to do.  Isn't that right?

 9        A.   Sir, I have different information, and that is that the Army of

10     Republika Srpska supplied itself from other channels, from Bulgaria,

11     Romania, for instance.  They had their own channels and connections

12     through which they supplied themselves with materiel and equipment.  Even

13     from Greece.

14        Q.   The senior officer corps of the VRS and the SVK were made up

15     predominantly of officers from the Army of Yugoslavia who were seconded

16     to the VRS and the SVK.  Isn't that right?

17        A.   Sir, that's not quite correct.  When the former Yugoslav People's

18     Army ceased to exist, the largest number of senior staff born in Croatia

19     and who had served in Croatia or in Bosnia-Herzegovina and had served in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina voluntarily stayed behind in the Army of the Republika

21     Srpska and the army of the Serbian Krajina.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would that be a convenient moment?

23             MR. SAXON:  It would, Your Honour.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at half past

25     12.00.  Court adjourned.

Page 10991

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 4             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   General, I'd like to go back for a moment to a discussion we had

 6     before the break, and I had asked you about the VJ's efforts to carry

 7     out -- this is at page 53, beginning at line 5, and I'd asked you about

 8     the VJ's provision of military aid to the armies of Republika Srpska and

 9     the army of Serbian Republic of Krajina, and you said to me:

10             "Sir, if you mean military aid, the answer is yes.  Again,

11     pursuant to decisions taken by the appropriate state bodies, the supreme

12     state bodies, we never tried to conceal that.  It was a matter of public

13     record."

14             Do you recall that?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16        Q.   So is it your evidence that the -- the VJ gave its assistance and

17     military aid to the VRS and the SVK publicly?

18        A.   Well, sir, when I said that it was common knowledge that the

19     public was aware of it, there were articles in the press about it, and as

20     far as I can remember I think this was discussed by the delegates in

21     parliament, so it was in that context that I had in mind when I said it

22     was in the public record.

23        Q.   When you say, "We never tried to conceal that," who is the "we"

24     that you're referring to?

25        A.   Thank you for this question.  I wasn't specific enough.  I mean

Page 10992

 1     the state, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 2        Q.   And do you include within that state, within that "we," the Army

 3     of Yugoslavia, that nor did the Army of Yugoslavia try to conceal this

 4     military aid?

 5        A.   Well, the Army of Yugoslavia, I don't think in public, but the

 6     state bodies presented it, but I think it was well known even to military

 7     and political representatives accredited to Belgrade.  They knew about

 8     that.  They were aware of it.

 9        Q.   Well, you're aware, aren't you, that in May 1992 the

10     United Nations imposed sanctions against the Federal Republic of

11     Yugoslavia?

12        A.   Yes, I am aware of that.

13        Q.   Do you recall why those sanctions were imposed?

14        A.   Well, sir, I think the sanctions were imposed to force all the

15     parties to deal with problems by political means in the former

16     Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   But specifically, the sanctions were imposed against the FRY

18     because of the FRY's assistance, military assistance, to the Republika

19     Srpska and Republic of Serbian Krajina; right?

20        A.   I don't think so.  I don't think that was the only reason.  At

21     the time, it was felt that -- or, rather, the international community

22     felt that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was not cooperative enough

23     in those efforts to find a political settlement to the problems in the

24     former Yugoslavia.

25        Q.   When you say "it was not the only reason," but the military

Page 10993

 1     assistance was one reason, wasn't it?

 2        A.   Sir, probably, yes.

 3        Q.   And these sanctions that were imposed by the UN against the FRY,

 4     they were not fully lifted until after the Dayton Accords.  Isn't that

 5     right?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, they were lifted selectively.

 7        Q.   They were not fully lifted until after the Dayton Accords; right?

 8        A.   As far as I can remember, yes.  That's -- they were not lifted.

 9        Q.   Now, if sanctions are imposed on a state by the international

10     community, such sanctions would effectively be a threat to the well-being

11     of that state.  Isn't that right?

12        A.   Yes, yes.  The answer is yes.

13        Q.   And so it would at that time, between 1992 and the

14     Dayton Accords, the end of 1995, it was not in the interests of the FRY

15     to see sanctions tightened, was it?

16        A.   No, of course.

17        Q.   It would not, then, have been in the interests of the FRY, or of

18     the VJ for that matter, to permit its military assistance to the RS and

19     the RSK to occur publicly.  Isn't that right?

20        A.   Well, this is a bit -- I think I've answered at that question.

21     It seems to me rather a dual question.  I think I answered the question.

22        Q.   Let me ask the question in another way.  Since it was not in the

23     interests of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to see sanctions

24     tightened, it would have been against the interests of the FRY -- I'm

25     going to ask the question hopefully in a simpler way.

Page 10994

 1             Since it was not in the interests of the Federal Republic of

 2     Yugoslavia to see sanctions tightened, it would have been in the

 3     interests of the FRY, and therefore of the VJ, to conceal the continued

 4     provision of military aid to the Army of Republika Srpska and the army of

 5     the Serbian Republic of Krajina; right?

 6        A.   Sir, decisions about that aid were made by the highest state

 7     leadership, and they regulated how this aid should be extended, in what

 8     way, whether this should be known or not, et cetera.  These were

 9     political decisions, the details of which I am not familiar with.  They

10     were political decisions.

11        Q.   Right.  Moving on to another topic --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, yesterday you indicated you might take

13     a session.  You have taken two.  How much longer are you going to be?

14             MR. SAXON:  Hopefully about five minutes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. SAXON:  Can we show the witness Exhibit D273, please.

17        Q.   You see, General, this is a report that Mr. Lukic showed you

18     yesterday on the living conditions and presence of members of Muslim

19     armed forces at the holding centres at Mitrovo Polje and Branesko Polje.

20     Do you remember looking at this document?

21        A.   I do.

22        Q.   And it says in the beginning, the first paragraph, in the period

23     from 31 July to 25 October 1995, larger and smaller groups of Muslim

24     armed forces entered the FRY from the Zepa area, numbering a total of

25     799 persons.  And then these 799 persons were -- remained within these

Page 10995

 1     holding centres; is that right?

 2        A.   Sir, first of all it was the army that took them in and a

 3     commission that was formed as I described yesterday, and they were

 4     registered and then --

 5        Q.   All I need is a yes or no answer to my question, sir.

 6        A.   No.  At first, no.

 7        Q.   Well, eventually these 799 persons found their way to these

 8     holding centres; right?

 9        A.   I didn't get the interpretation.

10             That is right.

11        Q.   Okay.  This document deals with Muslims who crossed over in the

12     period 31 July through 25 October.  Do you know what happened to the

13     Muslims who crossed the Drina River from the Srebrenica-Zepa areas and

14     entered the FRY between the middle of July and 31 July, 1995?

15        A.   Sir, as far as I know, yesterday when I was looking through those

16     lists, I noted that among the members of the armed forces, the Muslim

17     armed forces, there were members of the 28th Division and certain

18     brigades from the 28th Division.  And as for the period you have

19     specified, I don't know -- or, rather, I don't remember.

20        Q.   Well, the truth is, General, that those Muslims who crossed over

21     before the 31st of July were returned to the Republika Srpska and killed.

22     Isn't that the truth?

23        A.   Sir, that is something that I absolutely am not aware of.

24        Q.   During your direct examination, this is at page 44 of the

25     LiveNote, discussing this same document, Mr. Lukic asked you what became

Page 10996

 1     of these persons, the persons who are -- the 799 persons mentioned in

 2     this report.  And at page 44, beginning at line 16, you said the

 3     following:

 4             "Mr. Lukic, I know that those persons were allowed to decide for

 5     themselves as to what their next destination would be upon leaving the

 6     reception centres.  As far as I know, most of them headed west, most of

 7     them through Hungary.  Every security measure available was taken in the

 8     process."

 9             Do you know, sir, if any of those Muslims expressed a desire to

10     return to Republika Srpska in the last part of 1995?

11        A.   Sir, I don't know that.

12        Q.   General, thank you very much for your time and your patience with

13     my questions.

14             MR. SAXON:  I'll pass the witness, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

16             Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon, for this

18     co-ordination of efforts.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] General, good afternoon once again.

21        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.

22        Q.   I assume you wish to return to your family as soon as possible,

23     so I shall try and focus on the most important points so that we can

24     really finished today.

25             My first question -- for my first question, could we go into

Page 10997

 1     private session, and could we put P215 on the screen.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could the Chamber please move into private

 3     session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10998

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.  Sorry.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, Mr. Saxon asking you whether you stand by your thesis

13     that these were three separate armies, showed you a set of documents that

14     I should like us to go back to, and they relate to the personnel status

15     of certain officers.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have on the screen P2128,

17     page 3, please.

18        Q.   We'll first look at the name of Mr. Tolimir.  This was shown to

19     you by the Prosecutor.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 3, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have page 3.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The bottom part of the page when we

23     see the data for Mr. Zdravko Tolimir.

24        Q.   In the examination-in-chief, it was stated that Mr. Tolimir,

25     Zdravko, was assistant for -- of the Chief of Staff for intelligence.

Page 10999

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now let us look at the B/C/S page 3,

 2     please.  The English is okay.

 3        Q.   You said that you're not very familiar with personnel affairs,

 4     but what I'm going to ask you is more in your professional field.

 5             The date mentioned is the 10th of November, 1993.  You see the

 6     date, and Mr. Saxon mentioned it.

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   And it is stated, as Mr. Saxon said, that he's being appointed to

 9     the Chief of Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia in the 30th centre of the

10     Main Staff under that date as assistant chief.  Then a bit lower it says

11     that until then, according to the peacetime establishment, he was chief

12     of the security organ in the command of the 2nd Military District, FC

13     Colonel PG11 as of the 30th of August, 1990, Sarajevo Garrison.  Do you

14     see that?

15        A.   Yes, I do, Mr. Lukic.

16        Q.   Yesterday and today we saw several documents where the

17     2nd Military District is mentioned and signed by General Kukanjac.  Did

18     the 2nd Military District exist until the 10th of November, 1993?

19        A.   Mr. Lukic, it did not.

20        Q.   When did the 2nd Military District cease to exist?

21        A.   Mr. Lukic, as far as I can remember around the 15th of May when

22     the pull-out started, that is May 1992 when the pull out of the JNA from

23     Bosnia and Herzegovina started.

24        Q.   In the structure of the Yugoslav People's Army -- or, rather, the

25     Army of Yugoslavia, after the formation of the Army of Yugoslavia, did

Page 11000

 1     the 2nd Military District exist after May 1992?

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, it did not.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now put on the screen

 4     document from the 65 ter list of the Prosecution, 7386.  In the B/C/S

 5     page 41.  This document in the set of Defence documents.  Unfortunately,

 6     we do not have an English translation of this document, so I will cover

 7     it with the help of the witness, or at least parts of it.

 8        Q.   I'm going to read it aloud, and could the witness just confirm

 9     whether I'm reading correctly.

10             It is a decree by the president of the Republika Srpska, dated

11     the 16th of December, 1992.

12             "Pursuant to Article 11, 168 and 369 of the Law on the Army of

13     Republika Srpska, according to peacetime and wartime establishment we

14     appoint Tolimir Zdravko."

15             I leave out the data, and then says in capitals:

16             "To the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, the Sector

17     for Intelligence, Security Affairs."

18             Then I leave out again some details, and lower down it says:

19             "Up until now, according to peacetime establishment, he was head

20     of the administration for security, intelligence affairs in the

21     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, establishment rank

22     major general, group 9, dated the 10th of June, 1992."

23             Then again I leave out some of the text, we'll just see who is

24     the signatory.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we scroll up.

Page 11001

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2             Signature, the President of Republika Srpska,

 3     Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

 4             Have I read out correctly this document?

 5        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic, you read it out correctly.

 6        Q.   What does this document tell you?  In which army and when and at

 7     what position was Mr. Tolimir?

 8        A.   Mr. Lukic, this document clearly shows that Zdravko Tolimir, by

 9     decree of the president of the Republic of Srpska, Radovan Karadzic, was

10     appointed to a general's position on the 10th of June, 1992, and to the

11     Main Staff of the Serbian Army of Krajina, and that is the competence of

12     the president of the republic.

13        Q.   I think you made a slip of the tongue.  You didn't mean the Army

14     of Krajina but the Army of Republika Srpska.

15        A.   I apologise.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would tender this

17     document into evidence.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

19             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I don't object to the admission of the

20     document, but since we do not have an English translation, I'd ask that

21     it be marked for identification at this time.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's only fair, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's something else

24     that I might add, and I see the Registrar was going to react.  This

25     document under number 1796P is in the evidence in the B/C/S version, but

Page 11002

 1     other portions have been admitted in English.  If you remember, those are

 2     personnel files, and to the best of my understanding of your

 3     instructions, only what has been translated into English is part of the

 4     P evidence, and now we need to have a new number for the rest of the

 5     document.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think we should follow the practice that we have

 8     been following all the time.  Documents which belong must stay together.

 9     We'll make it part of P1796, but this part will be MFI'd until the

10     translation is provided.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour.

12        Q.   May we now please go back in relation to Petar Salapura, OTP

13     Exhibit P2128, page 3 in the B/C/S, I believe.  The same page number in

14     English.

15             You testified in relation to Petar Salapura, that he was in the

16     intelligence organ, intelligence security organ of the Main Staff of the

17     VRS.

18        A.   That's right, Mr. Lukic.

19             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note:  Can Mr. Lukic please speak

20     closer into the microphone.  The interpreter can't hear him.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you heard that?  Please speak closer to

22     the microphone.  The interpreter don't hear you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I didn't, and I apologise.

24        Q.   I think we might as well keep this, this portion in English,

25     although the name Petar Salapura occurs in the previous page.  And the

Page 11003

 1     Prosecutor showed you this.  Mr. Saxon used this document to put it to

 2     you that Petar Salapura on the 10th of November, 1993, was appointed to

 3     the 30th Personnel Centre, the General Staff of the VJ, chief of the

 4     intelligence department.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The first sentence that you can see

 6     in English, Your Honours, is the sentence that I will be asking the

 7     witness a question about.

 8        Q.   Just as I asked you in relation to Mr. Tolimir a minute ago, I

 9     will ask you about Mr. Salapura too.  Do you know that on the 10th of

10     November, 1993, there was something called the 2nd Military District in

11     the VJ?

12        A.   No, Mr. Lukic, I didn't know that.

13             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

15             MR. SAXON:  I'm very sorry to interrupt.  It's just -- could we

16     have the --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The correct page?

18             MR. SAXON:  The correct page on the e-court, please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I heard Mr. Lukic earlier say, "Let's stay with

20     this page" -- [overlapping speakers]... the previous page, so --

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We might as well show the previous

22     page just to make sure it's in reference to Mr. Salapura.  This part of

23     the document is in English, and that's what I am discussing with the

24     witness.  Therefore -- so just to repeat this, in English you can see

25     number 3, first name, last name, date, the 10th of November, 1993.  And

Page 11004

 1     what Mr. Saxon showed you yesterday.  And now could we please move on to

 2     the next page and focus on my question.

 3        Q.   Where was he based on this document, or where had he been up to

 4     this date, I asked you.  And you answered the question, Mr. Gajic.  You

 5     said that on the 10th of November, 1993, there was no such thing as a

 6     2nd Military District.

 7        A.   That's right.

 8        Q.   Not in the VJ at any rate.

 9             And what about February 1992?  Was there such a thing as the

10     2nd Military District back in February?

11        A.   Yes, there was.  There was at that time, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm done with this document, and I'm

13     moving on to another document that you were shown by Mr. Saxon yesterday.

14     This requires private session.  This is P2518.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May we please move into private session.

16 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're -- we're in private session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Yesterday I made an objection about the transcript, about the

22     translation specifically.  I would like to read this back and the general

23     can please confirm whether my reading is accurate.  The handwritten

24     portion, General.

25             "Call and send if he wants.  If not, a proposal."

Page 11005

 1             Is my reading correct?

 2        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic, your reading is correct.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You see the discrepancy,

 4     Your Honours, between the translation.  Since this is actually

 5     significant, I move that we request an official translation of the

 6     handwritten portion from CLSS.

 7        Q.   General, are you familiar with this person's handwriting by any

 8     chance?

 9        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic, certainly.  This is Momcilo Perisic, chief of the

10     General Staff, and it actually reads "MP," Momcilo Perisic, his very own

11     initials.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You just ask that we get an official translation

13     of this document.  So to be able to do that, then we must change the

14     status of the document from an exhibit to an exhibit marked for

15     identification pending that translation.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If Mr. Saxon agrees, if the Chamber

17     agrees, based on what we have just quoted in the courtroom, which was

18     interpreted accurately, I believe, I think there is no longer a need for

19     an official translation of the entire document.  That need has been

20     obviated.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you say so.

22             And if Mr. Saxon agrees.

23             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I think the better procedure would be to

24     get an official translation.  That's what I would ask.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If the parties can't agree, then may we get an

Page 11006

 1     official translation, and for that reason, therefore, P2518 shall be

 2     marked for identification.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we please go back into open

 6     session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move back into open

 8     session.

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 2 -- P2103.

14        Q.   Another document you were shown by Mr. Saxon.  It's about

15     Mr. Svetozar Kosoric.  This is an order by the commander of the

16     Drina Corps, signed by Commander General Krstic.

17             Let me ask you, first of all, the Drina Corps was part of which

18     army?

19        A.   The VRS, Mr. Lukic.

20        Q.   A brief follow-up question on this document.  He was appointed as

21     a delegate of the chief of the intelligence department in the organ for

22     intelligence security-related issues in a corps of the land forces in the

23     30th Personnel Centre.  You were a security officer yourself.  Therefore,

24     I will ask you this:  Are you familiar with the fact that within the

25     establishment of the VJ at the time there was a post like this such as I

Page 11007

 1     have just read out to you?

 2        A.   No, Mr. Lukic.  There was the security department of the corps.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have P1151 brought up

 5     on our screens.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Another document that you were shown by Mr. Saxon.  You remember

 7     this document, sir, don't you?

 8        A.   Indeed I do, Mr. Lukic.

 9        Q.   This is a document by the recruitment, mobilisation sector of the

10     General Staff of the VJ.  It was sent to the personnel administration on

11     of the 40th Personnel Centre.  The last paragraph, and that's in relation

12     to the preceding two paragraphs:

13             "Please issue the above-mentioned person with an authorisation to

14     return to his original unit and a receipt for the time he spent in the

15     40th Personnel Centre."

16             Had the VRS been a component of the VJ, would there have to be a

17     need for approval to be granted like this?

18        A.   No.  It would have been much simpler.  An order would have to be

19     issued.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have P7314, B/C/S

21     page 10, English page 7.  These are instructions governing the work of --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  7314 we don't have, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 734.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Instructions governing the work of

Page 11008

 1     the special personnel centres, dated November 1993.  This is page 1, and

 2     can we please have page 10 of the English -- rather, page 10 of the

 3     B/C/S, and page 10 of the English which happens to be the last page.

 4        Q.   I don't believe you've seen this document before, General.

 5     Nevertheless, I will read out a portion to you and ask to have your

 6     position on that.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 33, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   "In keeping with the service requirements, professional soldiers

 9     and civilian personnel sent or transferred to the personnel centre may be

10     returned, assigned, or transferred to VJ units, institutions with the

11     consent or on the recommendation of the KC Main Staff.  Consent or

12     recommendations for persons described under paragraph 1 herein shall be

13     sent to the KC personnel department, which shall immediately draw up the

14     documents stipulated and direct the persons to report to his previous

15     unit, institution, or transfer, assign, or appoint them to a post within

16     the purview of the VJ and GS, Chief of the General Staff and President of

17     the FRY in the Yugoslav Army."

18             Is this consistent with what you were shown a minute ago?  Is

19     this the kind of approval that is sought for someone to go back?

20        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21        Q.   And what about this, sir:  If someone leaves the VRS without

22     seeking proper authorisation from the VRS, what would their status be in

23     that army?

24        A.   Mr. Lukic, they would have the status of a deserter because that

25     person is within their chain of command.

Page 11009

 1        Q.   P2598, please.  The B/C/S reference is page 8, and the English is

 2     page 9.  2598.  Yes, that's right.

 3             We are looking for Tihomir Babic.  You remember being asked

 4     questions about him yesterday.

 5        A.   Yes, I do, Mr. Lukic.

 6        Q.   Mr. Saxon talked to you about some information regarding

 7     Mr. Tihomir Babic in this document, his actual return to the VJ.  The

 8     Loznica Garrison would be in the VJ; right?

 9        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10        Q.   I apologise if the question was leading.  I'm just trying to save

11     time and conclude as soon as possible.

12             Could this person have returned to the Loznica Garrison, could

13     this order have been issued without previous authorisation from the

14     Main Staff of the VRS Main Staff?

15        A.   No, Mr. Lukic, that would not have been possible.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see Prosecution

17     Exhibit P1856.

18             [In English] P1856.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] This is another document that you were shown by

20     Mr. Saxon yesterday, and it was about the same person?

21        A.   Yes, indeed.

22        Q.   Document of the Main Staff of the VRS sent to the command of the

23     Drina Corps.

24             I just want to know your position, sir, on the substance of this

25     order.  It says Tihomir Babic infantry is transferred from the

Page 11010

 1     30th Personnel Centre to a VJ unit pursuant to an order by the relevant

 2     officer.  Do you see that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Based on what it says, the 30th Personnel Centre would be in the

 5     VJ, wouldn't it?

 6        A.   It was subordinated to the personnel administration.

 7        Q.   The document says -- can you take a look at what it says?  He was

 8     transferred from the 30th personnel centre to a VJ unit.  Does this

 9     decision effectively take him back to a VJ unit?

10        A.   Yes, that's precisely what it does.  He's hereby returning to a

11     VJ unit.

12             I'm sorry, I didn't quite fully understand your question the

13     first time around.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

15             MR. SAXON:  That was quite a leading question, but I see that the

16     witness has answered it.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are aware of time constraints, but we must stay

18     within the rules.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I'm done with this set of documents, and I'm about to embark on a

21     set of questions in relation to a much-debated subject, specifically we

22     talked about this yesterday.  Were these three different armies, or in

23     fact a single army?  We have looked at a number of documents.  We

24     analysed the rules of service of the security organ suggesting that the

25     security administration was the supreme technical body in terms of

Page 11011

 1     security in the VJ.

 2        A.   Yes.  That's quite right, Mr. Lukic.

 3        Q.   What security organ is directly subordinated to the security

 4     administration in terms of security-related issues?

 5        A.   Mr. Lukic, that would have been the security department of the

 6     army.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 8             MR. SAXON:  I don't think this question arises out of

 9     cross-examination, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I please be allowed to ask two

12     further questions to explain why this is pertinent as to whether these

13     were three different armies or not.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm afraid, Mr. Lukic, there is an objection.

15     You've got to deal with the objection before you can ask any further

16     questions.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon asked a whole set of

18     questions about whether these were in fact three different armies or not.

19     I'm asking this question to see about the security chain of command of

20     the VJ.  I'm trying to ask the witness about the chain of command in

21     which the VRS and SVK security organs were.  I think this question stems

22     directly from the cross-examination by Mr. Saxon.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're shaking your head, Mr. Saxon.  Are you

24     saying you never asked any question about whether these are three

25     separate armies or one army?

Page 11012

 1             MR. SAXON:  I did, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You did.

 3             MR. SAXON:  I --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Well, looking at the security chain of command, who was

 7     subordinated to the army security organs?

 8        A.   Mr. Lukic, it was the corps's security bodies that were

 9     subordinated to them in the security chain of command.  I'm talking about

10     the VJ.

11        Q.   In a technical sense, and we looked at all those documents about

12     technical guidance, you, when I say you, I mean the security

13     administration, were you in a position to issue any instructions or

14     orders in terms of technical guidance to those subordinated organs?

15        A.   Yes.  That is the case, Mr. Lukic.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Sorry, Mr. Lukic.

17             I don't know whether everybody else is hearing what I'm hearing.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honours, there is phone ringing in the

19     English booth, but we have absolutely nothing to do with that, and don't

20     know why that is the case.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

22             Thank you very much, Mr. Interpreter.

23             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   You as the security administration, were you in a position to

Page 11013

 1     issue an order like that to any security organ from the VRS or indeed the

 2     SVK?

 3        A.   Mr. Lukic, a categorical answer would be no.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let's try to be more specific.  Do you know of anyone

 5     from the security administration adopting an order, a set of instructions

 6     perhaps, an assignment for Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Beara, Mr. Raseta, or any of

 7     the security officials of those armies?

 8        A.   Mr. Lukic, the answer is no.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You were shown a set of documents by Mr. Saxon today,

10     intelligence information of the intelligence security organ of the VRS,

11     dated May 1995.  Among other addressees, there were two in the VJ, one

12     being the personnel administration -- the security administration; the

13     other being the intelligence administration.  I would like you to focus

14     your attention on certain types of information, primarily in relation to

15     the 28th Division.

16             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Lukic please

17     speak closer to the microphone or speak up because I can't hear him

18     properly.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters would like you to speak closer to

20     microphone or speak up because they are not able to hear you, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   These reports describe the activities of which army primarily?

23        A.   Mr. Lukic, the activities of the VRS.

24        Q.   What about these intelligence reports?  When they describe the

25     activities of the VRS, do they focus on such information showing what the

Page 11014

 1     enemy was doing or what the VRS was doing?

 2        A.   These focus on enemy activity and any reaction by the VRS.

 3        Q.   Why are these reports signed by intelligence officers with the

 4     intelligence and security department of the VRS?  Why not by Beara

 5     himself?  Can you comment, sir, please, because we saw that all these

 6     documents were signed by intelligence officers.

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, the simple reason was that this was intelligence they

 8     were dealing with gathered by intelligence officers using their own

 9     methods and means.  This wasn't pure counter-intelligence work, as I

10     believe I explained to Mr. Saxon in roughly the same terms.

11        Q.   You were shown the Dragomir Milosevic sentence from the

12     Dragomir Milosevic trial.  You saw the basis for that?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Dragomir Milosevic sentence from his trial, or the

14     judgement in his claim in Belgrade?

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is P822.

16        Q.   On that occasion --

17             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Lukic please face

18     the microphone and not away from the microphone.  We really can't hear

19     him.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please face the microphone.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It must be the courtroom.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We can't get you a longer microphone.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You looked at the sentence.  Mr. Saxon showed you the sentence.

25     In what capacity was Mr. Milosevic heard there?  I know you're not lawyer

Page 11015

 1     yourself.

 2        A.   As far as I could tell, he was the plaintiff.  He brought charges

 3     against the state.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have the document that

 5     we were looking at, P164.  We looked at that with Mr. Saxon a while ago.

 6     That is the report by General Kukanjac.

 7        Q.   Mr. Saxon showed you this document while explaining his theory

 8     that the army was not neutral, rather that it was primarily protecting

 9     the Serb interests.  You answered questions about that a while ago,

10     didn't you?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Switch off the other mike.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I gave the wrong number.  P5 --

14             [In English] P185, B/C/S 5, English 5.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say the number again.

16             MR. LUKIC:  P185.  Page 5 English, page 5 B/C/S.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] I'm reading what it says under (b).  Mr. Saxon

18     told you it refers to an event that occurred in March 1992 in Sarajevo.

19     Mr. Kukanjac says here:

20             "Thanks to a strong anti-army campaign by the SDA leadership, the

21     mass media, and some other institutions, the majority of the Muslim

22     population has a fairly reserved attitude towards our army.  However, the

23     role of the JNA on the said night has helped considerably to restore the

24     confidence of the Muslim population in the JNA.  The district command

25     received the most telegrams, letters, and telephone calls from Muslims

Page 11016

 1     thanking us for having prevented bloodshed.  We have information that the

 2     SDA and some other party leaderships are considering a plan to again turn

 3     the Muslim people against the JNA.  So far they have not been successful

 4     in that."

 5             General, before the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was formed in

 6     May 1992, or, rather, during the existence the former SFRY, what was the

 7     constitutional role of the JNA?

 8        A.   Mr. Lukic, the main constitutional role of the JNA was to protect

 9     the integrity and sovereignty of the then Socialist Federal Republic of

10     Yugoslavia.

11        Q.   In performing this task, was the JNA for or against all those who

12     wished to remain within the SFRY?

13        A.   Mr. Lukic, from the very beginning the military leadership was in

14     favour of the survival of Yugoslavia, but for the peoples of Yugoslavia

15     to decide their own destiny and that the JNA would accept any political

16     decision.

17        Q.   Do you know whether the JNA armed in those days those who wanted

18     to leave the SFRY, that is, those with secessionist intentions?

19        A.   Mr. Lukic, the answer is no.

20        Q.   In view of this basic or fundamental constitutional role of the

21     JNA, did it act in accordance with the decisions of the highest political

22     leadership of the then SFRY with respect to the arming of those who

23     recognised the SFRY and the JNA?

24        A.   Mr. Lukic, the answer is yes.

25        Q.   Do you know whether there were any distinctions made on an ethnic

Page 11017

 1     basis of those who accepted the JNA and the constitutional order of the

 2     SFRY and were not Serbs?

 3        A.   Mr. Lukic, there was no distinction.  For as long as the JNA

 4     existed, it was absolutely multi-ethnic.

 5        Q.   Do you know whether through the bodies of Territorial Defence

 6     which accepted the SFRY using those TO organs were Muslim and Croats that

 7     accepted the TO also armed?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I have just one more question.  Let me see your answer on

10     page 51, line 24, in answer to a question by Mr. Saxon.  Here is the

11     question put to you by Mr. Saxon:

12             "[In English] General, with respect to this state policy to try

13     to assist and to protect the Serbian communities in Republika Srpska and

14     Republika Srpska Krajina, that remained the state policy of the Federal

15     Republic of Yugoslavia through the end of the war in 1995 to the Dayton

16     Peace Accords, didn't it?"

17             [Interpretation] Your answer was, Yes.

18             You remember this question?

19        A.   Yes, I do, Mr. Lukic.

20        Q.   And that was a sequence of questions, because according to

21     Mr. Saxon's case, the leadership now of the Federal Republic of

22     Yugoslavia and the Army of Yugoslavia supported the demands of

23     Republika Srpska and the Serbian people in Republika Srpska and the

24     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  My question is, have you heard of the

25     Vance-Owen Plan?

Page 11018

 1        A.   Yes, of course, in 1993.

 2        Q.   What was the proposal behind what plan, do you know?

 3        A.   Mr. Lukic, the plan proposed that a peaceful settlement be

 4     accepted in Bosnia and Herzegovina and that the war be ended.

 5        Q.   What was the position of the leadership of the Federal Republic

 6     of Yugoslavia and the Army of Yugoslavia in respect to at that plan?

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Army of

 8     Yugoslavia unequivocally accepted that plan.

 9        Q.   And what was the position of Republika Srpska and the Army of

10     Republika Srpska in connection with that plan?

11        A.   Mr. Lukic, the leadership of Republika Srpska and the military

12     leadership of Republika Srpska rejected the plan, and the plan was

13     rejected at a meeting of the Assembly of Republika Srpska.  And also

14     present on that occasion was Mr. Mitsotakis, who was at the time

15     prime minister of Greece, and Milosevic.

16        Q.   Do you remember what was the position of President

17     Slobodan Milosevic and Mr. Mitsotakis at that Assembly meeting?

18        A.   Mr. Lukic, it was unpleasant.  Every attempt to persuade the

19     people that there was no other alternative, that the alternative was war

20     or peace and -- however, they did not accept.  Republika Srpska, the

21     Assembly of Republika Srpska, did not accept it, and the highest

22     leadership of that republic.

23        Q.   Who proposed peace, and who proposed that the plan be accepted in

24     that Assembly?

25        A.   Mr. Lukic, Milosevic on behalf of the Federal Republic of

Page 11019

 1     Yugoslavia and Mitsotakis from Greece.

 2        Q.   Mr. Gajic, have you heard of the Contact Group Plan?

 3        A.   Yes, I heard of it.  This was from August -- or, rather, from the

 4     middle of 1994.

 5        Q.   What was the position of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and

 6     the Army of Yugoslavia with respect to that plan?

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, it was absolutely accepted by the Federal Republic of

 8     Yugoslavia and the Army of Yugoslavia as -- I would say as the last

 9     chance for achieving peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10        Q.   What was the position of the political leadership of

11     Republika Srpska and the Army of Republika Srpska in respect to the

12     adoption of the Contact Group Plan?

13        A.   Mr. Lukic, they emphatically rejected that plan, and they treated

14     this as a betrayal of their interests, the interests of Republika Srpska.

15        Q.   Did this have certain consequences in relations between the

16     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska?

17        A.   Immediately after this, sanctions were enforced against

18     Republika Srpska by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

19        Q.   In view of what I read out a moment ago and that Mr. Saxon asked

20     you about, do you still consider that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

21     and the Army of Yugoslavia always supported the positions of

22     Republika Srpska and the Army of Republika Srpska until the end of the

23     war in 1995?

24        A.   No, I was not precise in answering that question.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gajic.

Page 11020

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to all of you and the

 2     interpreters for the speed of my questions, but I wanted to complete this

 3     testimony by the end of the day.

 4                           Questioned by the Court:

 5             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, I have a question to

 6     put to you.  To be quite honest, I have some difficulty in believing

 7     regarding what you said about the events in Srebrenica and when you said

 8     that you learnt about what was happening after the beginning of the month

 9     of August, several days after the event.  I wonder, you were head of

10     military security.  Where do you get information that allows you to do

11     your work in the field of security.  Where does your information come

12     from?

13        A.   Your Honour, pursuant to the information we received, they came

14     from the military intelligence administration of the General Staff of the

15     Army of Yugoslavia and the intelligence information that we received from

16     the intelligence sector of the Army of Republika Srpska.

17             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Therefore, that information came

18     from the ground, came from military men who were in the field.

19        A.   Your Honour, yes, that is correct.

20             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Therefore, in spite of the fact

21     that you had information coming directly from soldiers who were in

22     Srebrenica during the events of the month of July, so no information

23     reached you before the beginning of the month of August or mid-August?

24     And again through the media, according to what you told us.  It was only

25     from the media that you learnt what had happened.

Page 11021

 1        A.   Your Honour, in the information that I referred to, there was no

 2     information about crimes committed in Srebrenica.

 3             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] That is why I'm so astonished.

 4     You had no information of crimes committed in Srebrenica; whereas you had

 5     men on the ground who were informing you.  So I really don't know.  Maybe

 6     your intelligence services were not too effective, but I am having

 7     difficulty in understanding that.

 8        A.   Your Honour, those were not our intelligence organs in

 9     Republika Srpska.  They were members of the intelligence organs of the

10     Army of Republika Srpska.  So that means of quite a different army, and

11     they informed us.

12             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I see, but I am talking about the

13     Yugoslav Army.  You had your own men who were informing you from

14     Republika Srpska.  You did not depend exclusively on the information from

15     the VRS.

16        A.   Your Honour, those operative positions, as we called them, with

17     the collapse or break-up of Yugoslavia, most of them went abroad.  So we

18     had far more information reaching us as to what was happening abroad

19     regarding illegal arming, mercenaries, and so on, which they sent us on a

20     regular basis.

21             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, it's not credible what

22     you're saying.  Half of the officers who were in the VRS, they came from

23     the VJ, a large number in any event, a certain percentage anyway.  They

24     were paid by you, and they were not informing you?

25        A.   Your Honour, we in the counter-intelligence had our own sources

Page 11022

 1     that were registered sources.  They were not all members of -- not all

 2     members of the army were obliged to inform the counter-intelligence

 3     service.

 4             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  I won't insist,

 5     because you're not going to answer my question.  I do not find you to be

 6     very credible in your answers.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Judge.

 8             JUDGE DAVID:  General, I will ask you a very brief question due

 9     to the hour.

10             The Prosecutor, as well as Mr. Lukic, showed you an exhibit in

11     which General Dragomir Milosevic demanded the state of Serbia and

12     Montenegro for injuries suffered during his tenure of the

13     Republika Srpska, as he said in the narrative.

14             My question to you:  As a general of the Yugoslav Army who also

15     had experience in the Army of Republika Srpska, as you said, why this

16     demand even though you are not a lawyer, was not issued against

17     Republika Srpska and only to the Republic of Serbia and Montenegro?  Do

18     you know why?  Is any information in your possession, official or

19     nonofficial, not only as a security officer but as a general and soldier

20     of the -- of both armies.

21        A.   Your Honour, I saw this document for the first time, and I'm

22     really not familiar with the case, so I can't give you a proper answer

23     and meet your interest.  I'm afraid that if I were to say anything due to

24     lack of knowledge, I could be misleading, so I do apologise.

25             JUDGE DAVID:  Do you know of any officer of the 30th Personnel

Page 11023

 1     Centre who, suffering injuries at the front in the Republika Srpska Army,

 2     had ever issued a demand against the Republika Srpska?  Do you know of

 3     any case?

 4        A.   Your Honours, I do not.  I am not familiar with any single case.

 5             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are the parties going to have questions arising

 7     from the questions from the Bench?

 8             Mr. Saxon?

 9             MR. SAXON:  No, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             Mr. Gajic, that brings us to the end of your testimony.  Thank

14     you very much for coming to testify at the Tribunal.  You are now

15     excused.  You may stand down, and please travel well back home.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, ladies and gentlemen,

17     thank you for your fairness, and I wish you a pleasant weekend.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Thank you.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The matter stands adjourned to Monday, the 15th of

21     March, at 9.00 in the morning in Courtroom II.  Court adjourned.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day

24                           of March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.

25