1 Friday, 12 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everyone in and around the
8 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
10 everyone in and around the courtroom this is case number IT-04-81-T, the
11 Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 Could we have appearances for the day, starting with the
14 Prosecution, please.
15 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. Dan Saxon,
16 Bronagh McKenna, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
18 And for the Defence.
19 MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't hear any interpretation.
21 MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic I just want to be sure that
23 everybody can hear the English interpretation.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Can everyone hear the English interpretation
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Interpreter. We didn't hear you up
2 to now.
3 Anybody else? Judge, can you hear? Okay.
4 WITNESS: BRANKO GAJIC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Gajic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I remind once again that you are bound by the oath
9 that you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the
10 whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, General Gajic.
17 A. Good morning, sir.
18 Q. Yesterday, page 7, lines 11 through 15 of the LiveNote, you
19 explained that during the war the security administration was
20 particularly concerned about combat operations that took place closer to
21 the border with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Do you remember
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness Exhibit P1926, please.
25 Q. And just briefly, General, Mr. Lukic discussed this document with
1 you yesterday. This is at pages 14 to 15 of the LiveNote. And as we
2 see, it's a report from the security department of the Main Staff of the
3 Serbian Army of Krajina, dated the 1st of July, 1994, and it's submitted
4 to the security administration of the VJ General Staff, as well as to the
5 security department of the Main Staff of the Serbian Army of Krajina.
6 And yesterday, Mr. Lukic asked you whether you remembered seeing
7 documents of this kind or indeed receiving documents of this kind during
8 the war, and you responded:
9 "Mr. Lukic, as far as I remember, there may have been several
10 documents like this from the SVK. As for the VRS, we received none at
11 all or none that I can remember."
12 Do you remember that testimony?
13 A. I do, sir. If I may just add one thing. What I had in mind was
14 the formal procedure [as interpreted] for documents under the rules and
15 documents and records of the security administration.
16 Q. One moment, please.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic. Can we -- Mr. Saxon has asked for
18 a moment. Maybe if you can just wait for him.
19 Are you okay now, Mr. Saxon?
20 MR. SAXON: Yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Objection, page 3, line 10. He said
23 the formal appearance of the document or the format of the document.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's a correction, not an objection. Thank you.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, correction.
1 MR. SAXON:
2 Q. All right, General. I want to make sure that I understand your
3 testimony, and we've just had a correction from -- from Mr. Lukic. So
4 what you wanted to add --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: What he wanted to say is instead of "formal
6 procedure," "formal appearance" of the documents. In other words, the
7 format of the document.
8 MR. SAXON: Okay.
9 Q. So -- so -- very well. In other words, you don't recall -- as
10 far as you remember, you did not receive documents in this format from
11 the VRS.
12 A. That's right, sir. That's precisely what I had in mind.
13 Q. Okay. I'd like to show you, if we can, P2179, please.
14 General, this document, it's dated the 14th of May, 1995. It's
15 from the intelligence and security sector of the VRS Main Staff. It's
16 entitled "Intelligence Report," and take a moment to look at the first
17 page, the different matters that are being discussed here about pressures
18 being put on the FRY by the West, activities of officers of the HVO. The
19 bottom of the page in English:
20 "On the 14th of May, diversionary activities of Muslims ..."
21 And if we could please go to the middle of the second page,
22 please, in both languages.
23 You'll see here, General Gajic, a paragraph beginning with "The
24 commands of the 218th Light Brigade." Do you see that?
25 A. I see that, sir.
1 Q. It talks about how the commands of the 218th Light Brigade and
2 the 28th Division in Srebrenica are disseminating information that our
3 forces are planning to sever the corridor between Srebrenica and Zepa,
4 and hence they have sent a company from the 281st Light Brigade to the
5 area of the village of -- I'm sorry for my mispronunciation, Podravanje,
6 and they have deployed two other companies for securing the corridor. We
7 have confirmed reports that the command of the 28th Division is carrying
8 out preparations for offensive operations from the Srebrenica enclave and
9 Zepa to link up with parts of the 23rd, 26th, and 24th Divisions."
10 Have you been following me, sir?
11 A. I have, sir.
12 MR. SAXON: And if we could go to the last page, please, in both
13 versions. And can we please scroll down in the B/C/S version, please.
14 Thank you.
15 Q. You'll see, General, that this report comes from Zdravko Tolimir,
16 and I'd like you please to focus your attention on the very last line
17 under "CC." You see there the very last line at the bottom of your page
18 it says UP, GS, VJ. That P is actually a typographical error, isn't it?
19 That should be UB for security administration?
20 A. That's right, sir.
21 Q. So this document was sent to the security administration of the
22 VJ General Staff and the 2nd administration of the General Staff of the
23 VJ; right?
24 A. That's right, sir.
25 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness P1831, sir.
1 Q. General Gajic, this is a document. It's dated the 18th of May,
2 1995. It's from the intelligence and security section of the VRS Main
3 Staff. It's titled "Intelligence Information." And we see reports on
4 the first page about foreign affairs ministers of EU countries who were
5 meeting in Lisbon
6 MR. SAXON: And if we could please turn to page 3 in both English
7 and B/C/S, please.
8 Q. Towards the middle of the page, General Gajic, in your version,
9 we see a paragraph that begins with the phrase "Muslim propaganda." Do
10 you see that?
11 A. I see that, sir.
12 Q. According to that paragraph:
13 "Muslim propaganda is emphasising alleged VRS operations towards
14 enclaves in the Podrinje region. They have started occupying UNPROFOR
15 check-points in the Srebrenica area, while in the Gorazde area, on the
16 Gorazde-Ilovaca road, they're using UNPROFOR vehicles to manoeuvre forces
17 and transport materiel and technical equipment, which all indicates that
18 they are preparing offensive operations from the enclaves."
19 So again, in this information we see information regarding the
20 preparation of offensive operations from enclaves that are close to the
21 border with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; right?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 MR. SAXON: And if we scroll down, please, at the bottom of the
24 B/C/S version. And can we go to the next page in English. Thank you.
25 And further down in the English, please.
1 Q. What we see, General, that this document came from
2 Petar Salapura. And we see under -- at the very bottom of the CC section
3 we see: "UB of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army." That's the
4 security administration, isn't it? Your former administration?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. So again, this is an example of information sent from the VRS
7 intelligence and security sector that was sent to your administration in
8 the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia; correct?
9 A. That's right, sir.
10 MR. SAXON: Can we see Exhibit P2184, please.
11 Q. General Gajic, this document is dated 19th of May, 1995, from the
12 intelligence affairs sector of the Main Staff of the VRS. It's entitled
13 "Intelligence Report." And on the first page we see information about
14 Muslims who are illegally importing weapons and military equipment.
15 MR. SAXON: And if we could go to page 3 in the English version
16 and page 2 in the B/C/S version, please.
17 Q. General Gajic, if you could direct your attention to the first
18 full paragraph on the page in front of you beginning with "We have
19 confirmed ..." It says:
20 "We have confirmed the information that the 28th Division is
21 undergoing intensive preparations for offensive activities in order to
22 link up with parts of the 23rd Division in the Han Pogled sector. As
23 part of the offensive preparations from the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves,
24 they have taken possession of important facilities to secure the corridor
25 linking the enclaves, and they have partially grouped forces in the
1 western part of the enclaves. They have taken Podravanje, Ljeskovik,
2 Susica, Stublic, Brloznik, Sadilov Cair, Godjenje, and Ljubomislje, and
3 Gusinac, which are outside the so-called demilitarised zone, in order to
4 take better conditions for offensive activities."
5 Now, that 28th Division, that's 28th Division of the ABiH, isn't
7 A. That is correct, sir.
8 MR. SAXON: And can we scroll down in the B/C/S version, please,
9 and can we please go to the last page of the English version.
10 I'm sorry, can we go back one page back in English, to the bottom
11 of the page.
12 Q. We see, General, that this came from Major General Tolimir. And
13 if we go one page further in the English, please, we see that this
14 document was also sent to the security administration of the
15 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia
16 A. Yes, that's right, sir.
17 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness Exhibit P2178.
18 Q. This document is dated the 21st of May, 1995. It's from the
19 intelligence and security sector of the Main Staff of the VRS. It's
20 titled "Intelligence Report," and we see information on the first page
21 about intelligence services of Western countries.
22 MR. SAXON: And if we can turn to page 2 in the English and
23 page 2 in B/C/S, please. And can we focus on the top of the page in the
24 B/C/S version. Thank you so much.
25 Q. And, General, you'll see at the top of the page in your version
1 it says:
2 "The Muslims in the Gorazde enclave continued with the supply of
3 ammunition by air and establishing and maintaining a high level of combat
4 readiness. The command of the 81st Division is disseminating information
5 that it has allegedly abandoned offensive operations due to the losses
6 suffered by the 82nd Division at Treskavica. We have confirmed reports
7 that in the recent period they obtained fuel," something is crossed out
8 and then written by hand, "from UNPROFOR. The Muslim leadership is
9 trying to avoid medical evacuation and prevent the abandonment of the
11 Then in the next paragraph it says:
12 "They are trying to organise the return of the population to
13 Gorazde under the pretext of reuniting families. On the territory of
14 Srebrenica, the Muslims are reinforcing and replenishing forces along the
15 forward line of defence, particularly in the Suceska area."
16 Have you been following me?
17 A. Yes, sir, indeed I have.
18 Q. So now we have information about another enclave that's quite
19 close to the border of the FRY; is that right?
20 A. That's right, sir.
21 MR. SAXON: Can we scroll down in the B/C/S version, please, and
22 in the English version. Can we go to the next page in English, please.
23 Q. And we see this document also comes from Petar Salapura, and in
24 the CC section, the last line, we see this document was sent to the UB,
25 the security administration of the VJ General Staff. Is that right?
1 A. Yes, sir, that is right.
2 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness P2180.
3 Q. General Gajic, this document is dated now the 26th of May, 1995.
4 It is from the intelligence and security sector of the Main Staff of the
5 VRS. It's entitled "Intelligence Report."
6 MR. SAXON: And if we could scroll down this page in both
7 versions, please.
8 Q. And in the second paragraph from the bottom, General, we see
9 the -- it begins with "The Muslim media." Do you see that?
10 A. I see that, sir.
11 Q. It says:
12 "The Muslim media are euphorically reporting on the allegedly
13 large number of victims among the civilian population on the territory of
15 against VRS features and positions."
16 Now, the fact that NATO air-strikes might occur in an area
17 relatively close to the border of the FRY, that's something that the
18 security administration of the VJ General Staff would have been
19 interested in. Is that fair?
20 A. Yes, sir. You could put it that way.
21 MR. SAXON: Can we please go to the last page -- actually, the
22 second to last page in English, which is one page ahead, and the next
23 page in B/C/S, please. And if we could focus on the bottom of the page,
24 actually, please, in both languages.
25 Q. General Gajic, you will see that this document is from Colonel
1 Jovica Karanovic, and in the CC section it is being sent as well to the
2 security administration of the General Staff of the VJ.
3 Are you following me?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. So there was information from the VRS security and intelligence
6 organs forwarded to your administration during the war, wasn't there?
7 A. That's right, sir.
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness D269. It's
10 Exhibit D269.
11 Q. General Gajic, Mr. Lukic discussed this document with you
13 MR. SAXON: Can we scroll down in the B/C/S version, please.
14 Q. We see at the top of this document it begins with the title
15 "Report number 2-107/1 on the state of the Muslim forces in the Zepa
16 enclave." And then the next paragraph begins with:
17 "Having taken the Srebrenica enclave, VRS units concentrated
18 their forces around the Zepa enclave ..."
19 And we see that this report was submitted by the 2nd
20 administration of the VJ General Staff to General Perisic on the 14th of
21 July, 1995. So let's just take this step-by-step.
22 This document shows that by the 14th of July, the security
23 administration of the VJ General Staff had information that the VRS had
24 taken the Srebrenica enclave; right?
25 A. [No interpretation]
1 Q. I did not hear an English translation to what the witness -- to
2 the witness's response.
3 THE INTERPRETER: "That is correct, sir," said the witness.
4 MR. SAXON: Thank you.
5 Q. And on that day, the 14th, the security administration sent that
6 information to Momcilo Perisic.
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. The intelligence administration.
10 Q. I see. Thank you, sir. Thank you for that correction.
11 Prior to the 14th --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I'm lost. You said, And on that day,
13 the 14th, the security administration sent that information to
14 Momcilo Perisic. The answer is, No, sir. Question, All right. The
15 intelligence administration.
16 What about the intelligence administration?
17 MR. SAXON:
18 Q. General Gajic, I believe you were correcting a proposition in my
19 question. I had put the question to you that it was the security
20 administration that provided this information to General Perisic, but in
21 your response you corrected me by saying that, No, this information came
22 from the intelligence administration. Have we got it right?
23 A. Yes, you have understood me perfectly now.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very important that the record is clear.
25 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. And put another way, when it says the 2nd administration of the
2 General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, that's a reference to the
3 intelligence administration; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, correct, sir.
5 Q. So prior to the 14th, do you know that -- whether the
6 intelligence administration had received information that the VRS
7 offensive at Srebrenica had begun? Do you know that?
8 A. As far as I can remember, there were reports about those combat
9 activities in that area.
10 Q. Prior to the 14th.
11 A. Yes. That's what I had in mind.
12 Q. Can you recall, sir, what was -- what were the first reports or
13 the first information that you received about the VRS combat activities
14 in the Srebrenica area?
15 A. Well, sir, it was quite a long time ago. I can't remember all
16 the details. If you were to show me a document, perhaps that would
17 assist me. Now, whether it was the beginning of July or -- or a date
18 around there, I really cannot be more precise, but I do know that there
19 were reports roughly of this kind of content that there were operations,
20 provocations from the Srebrenica zone, and the reaction the Army of
21 Republika Srpska. Those reports had that kind of content.
22 Q. Can you recall if those reports were coming to your
23 administration in July of 1995 on a daily basis?
24 A. As far as I can remember, perhaps not every day, but they did
25 come on a more or less regular basis.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered, but
2 I think Mr. Saxon should be more precise, on page 13, line 15, when he
3 says "those reports," because before that he asked when he first heard
4 about that, and then perhaps he could ask the witness on the basis of
5 which reports he had that information. I don't think the question was
6 precise enough.
7 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the question. That's the answer. The
9 statement "those reports had that kind of content" is the answer. I'm
10 talking about line 15.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw my objection, sir.
12 MR. SAXON:
13 Q. And this information that was coming to your administration about
14 events around Srebrenica prior to 14th of July, your administration would
15 have also passed that information on to General Perisic.
16 A. No, sir. Those were reports of the intelligence administration
17 of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, and copies of those
18 reports would go to General Perisic, but the 2nd administration quite
19 regularly did send a copy of those reports to the security administration
20 as well.
21 Q. Okay. So thank you for that clarification. So the point being
22 these reports about events around Srebrenica prior to the 14th of July
23 would have been sent -- would have been passed by the intelligence
24 administration to General Perisic.
25 A. I'm sorry, sir. I didn't quite understand your question. Could
1 you please repeat it.
2 Q. My mistake probably. I initially asked you a moment ago whether
3 your administration, the security administration, would have passed on
4 information about the events around Srebrenica prior to the 14th of July
5 on to General Perisic, and you corrected me. And if I understood your
6 point, your point is, it would have been the intelligence administration
7 that would have passed this information on to General Perisic. Have I
8 got it?
9 A. Yes, sir, but I must add to that, and I apologise. The
10 intelligence administration, and I spoke about that yesterday, would send
11 a copy of those reports to the operations centre of the General Staff of
12 the Army of Yugoslavia so that the duty team would enter it in their
13 report for the Chief of the General Staff, the contents of those reports.
14 I apologise for not saying that at first.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. All right. I'm going to move to another topic
17 MR. SAXON: We can remove this document.
18 Q. General Gajic, yesterday, you and I were discussing members of
19 the Army of Yugoslavia who went to serve in the VRS or the SVK, and at
20 pages -- if I read our discussions at pages 71, 75, 76 of -- of the
21 LiveNote transcript, your position appears to be that all those members
22 of the VJ who went to serve in the VRS and/or the SVK did so voluntarily.
23 Have I summarised your position accurately?
24 A. Yes, you have, sir.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness Exhibit P822, please.
2 Q. General Gajic, I'll give you a moment to take a look at this
3 document. This is a court judgement. It's from the 2nd Municipal Court
4 in Belgrade
5 Dragomir Milosevic. And in the second paragraph entitled "Judgement" --
6 actually, if we stay with the first paragraph, we see here that the
7 parties are Dragomir Milosevic against the Federal Republic
9 And then if we move to the paragraph that's entitled "Judgement,"
10 it says that:
11 "The claim brought by the plaintiff Dragomir Milosevic from
13 compensate the plaintiff for the nonmaterial damages he suffered and to
14 pay the following amounts ..."
15 And then we see a series of amounts in dinars. Are you following
17 A. Yes, I'm following, sir.
18 MR. SAXON: Could we scroll down in the B/C/S version, please,
19 and in the English version as well.
20 Q. And we see there's a section called "Statement of Reasons." And
21 just briefly, the very start says:
22 "In his claim and through his authorised agent during trial, the
23 plaintiff alleged that on 17 May 1995
24 combat activities on the Bosut facility in the general sector of Zlatiste
25 near Sarajevo
1 Are you following me?
2 A. Yes, I am following.
3 MR. SAXON: Can we please turn to page 3 in both languages, sir.
4 Q. And I'd like to focus on the bottom of page 3 in the English
5 version and the top of page 3 in the B/C/S version, if we can. And,
6 General, you'll see at the top of your version it says that:
7 "The plaintiff Dragomir Milosevic ... stated that he had retired
8 on the 1st of February 1997. Prior to that he had been a professional
9 officer of the JNA army, and then the Army of Yugoslavia, that he had
10 served in the Army of Republika Srpska in Sarajevo with the rank of major
11 general, that from 1993 until his retirement, he has resided and worked
12 in Sarajevo
14 Been following me?
15 A. I'm sorry, which paragraph is that?
16 Q. In your version, General, it should be at the top of page 3.
17 MR. SAXON: Well, we're on the wrong page on e-court. That's the
18 problem in B/C/S. We need page 3 in e-court. We need the next page,
19 please, and can we please focus in on the top of the page.
20 Q. I'll give you just a moment, General, to read what I've just
21 actually read out in English.
22 Do you see that text there now, sir?
23 A. Yes, I do, thank you.
24 Q. And in that paragraph it continues:
25 "He had lived and worked for years in Sarajevo as a professional
1 JNA officer when the war broke out and was on the records of military
2 post 3001 Belgrade
3 And then it says:
4 "Furthermore, he stated that before the establishment of the
5 State of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, professional JNA officers
6 who originated from Serbia
7 wanted to return to Serbia
8 Murgaz, Ub municipality --"
9 MR. SAXON: Can we move to the next page in English, please.
10 Q. "... the plaintiff had stated in writing that he wanted to live
11 and work in Serbia
12 he was assigned to military post 3001 Belgrade. But a decision was made
13 in the form of a written order that as a member of this military post, he
14 would serve in Sarajevo
15 is how it happened that on 17 May 1995
16 operations at the Bosut facility ..."
17 Have you been following me?
18 A. Yes, I have, sir.
19 Q. General, this court judgement indicates that General Dragomir
20 Milosevic did not go to serve in the VRS voluntarily.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think the question in the way it
23 has been put by Mr. Saxon cannot be put in this way. Mr. Saxon has just
24 said what Mr. Milosevic stated as a party to the proceedings, and the
25 question has been worded differently.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure I understand your objection,
2 sir. Are you saying Mr. Saxon is embellishing what's on the record of
3 the court?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What Mr. Saxon has read shows that
5 this is not the judgement of the court but a statement of the plaintiff,
6 but the question put by Mr. Saxon in this way gives the impression that
7 it is part of the court judgement.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
9 MR. SAXON: I can rephrase my question, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means.
11 MR. SAXON:
12 Q. The version of events provided by Dragomir Milosevic and as
13 recorded in this document indicates that Dragomir Milosevic did not go to
14 serve in the VRS voluntarily. Correct?
15 A. On the basis of his statement, yes. That is his statement. That
16 is what he says.
17 Q. Okay. I'm going to move to a different topic now. We can move
18 from this document.
19 Yesterday, General, in response to a question from Mr. Lukic, you
20 said that during the war you never received any official intelligence
21 reports about crimes in Srebrenica or Sarajevo. Do you recall that
23 A. I do remember, sir.
24 Q. I'd like to focus, please, on the subject of crimes that occurred
25 in Sarajevo
1 intelligence reports. My first question for you is, during the war did
2 you receive any official reports from VJ units outside the intelligence
3 organs describing crimes committed by Serb forces against Muslims in
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure that I heard the
7 interpretation properly, so I would ask the interpreter to -- to repeat
8 this question once again. Line -- page 19, line 18.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the interpreter please repeat this question at
10 page 19, line 18.
11 Are you there, interpreter?
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter just repeated the question,
13 Your Honour.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I do not recall any such
16 MR. SAXON:
17 Q. All right. During the war -- [B/C/S on English channel].
18 MR. SAXON: I just heard something in my earphones. I don't know
19 whether it's important or not.
20 May I continue?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I also heard it. It looks like there is a crossed
23 line on the interpretation. Even before that, since we started this
24 morning, there is somebody in another language in the background on my
25 earphone. I don't know whether I'm the only one who's hearing this.
1 MR. SAXON: As you've pointed it out, Your Honour, I can vaguely
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, and it's been disturbing me the whole
4 morning, by I thought I'll bear it, but now it's getting louder and
5 louder. I don't know whether there's anything that can be done by the
6 technicians to help us.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will proceed, and hopefully the technicians are
9 attending to the matter.
10 MR. SAXON:
11 Q. General Gajic, during the war did you receive any official
12 reports from other FRY institutions or agencies, that is, apart from the
13 Army of Yugoslavia
14 Muslims in Sarajevo
15 A. Sir, I do not remember any such reports, either, reaching me.
16 Q. During the war, apart from official military or government
17 reports, then, did you receive any information at all about crimes
18 committed by Serb forces against Muslims in Sarajevo?
19 A. I think I've answered that question, sir. I don't remember
20 receiving any report at all about the crimes against Muslims. I don't
21 remember. Therefore, I'm unable to say. If you have any evidence or
22 something that you're willing to show me, perhaps then we can take it
24 Q. Perhaps my question wasn't as clear as it could have been. Up to
25 now I've been asking you questions about official reports because that
1 was the basis of your testimony yesterday in response to a question from
2 Mr. Lukic, and you've explained very clearly now that you've not received
3 any official reports from the government of the former Yugoslavia, from
4 the VJ army, about crimes committed in Sarajevo against Muslims. So
5 let's leave the universe of official reporting. Okay. Let's leave that
6 universe now.
7 During the war, did you receive any information at all about
8 crimes committed by Serb forces against Muslims in Sarajevo?
9 A. As far as I remember, there was no official information that came
10 our way. There were reports in the media, but those were quite
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Gajic, you're saying as far as you remember,
13 there was no official information. The question is, forget about
14 official information; you're being asked about information from anywhere.
15 It does not have to be official. Try to listen to the question, and try
16 to answer the question as succinctly as you possibly can.
17 Mr. Saxon is no longer talking about official reports now or
18 official information. He's talking about any information. It could be
19 from the newspaper, from the radio, from TV, from gossip, from anywhere.
20 You can answer.
21 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can try to be of
23 assistance. When one says "information" in the Serbian language, it
24 sounds official. The word -- the word "information" itself in the
25 Serbian language sounds like an official document, and that is why I
1 think it is a good idea that you, Your Honour, have explained to the
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]... information cannot be a
4 document. And I don't know B/C/S, but I can't leave that the word
5 "information" can mean a document. I'm surprised that it actually means
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the Serbian language the word is
8 often used in that sense, meaning an official report.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what -- what do you say in the Serbian
10 language if you want to talk about unofficial information?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "Did you have any indication."
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indication.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Or knowledge.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Anyway, we've explained the question to the
15 witness. I think the witness can answer.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I thank you for this
17 intervention. I understand the question. The answer is, yes, there were
18 reports in the media. It was from the media that we gleaned [realtime
19 transcript read in error "cleaned"] our earliest information regarding
20 the crimes in Srebrenica.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. General Gajic, I'm asking you now to focus on information
23 regarding crimes in Sarajevo
24 So let's stay with Sarajevo
25 I'll ask the question this way: Did you receive any - I'm afraid
1 to use the word now - information or indications in the media or other
2 unofficial sources about crimes committed by Serb forces against Muslims
3 in Sarajevo
4 A. Sir, we have the media reports, but we also had intelligence
5 about the situation in Sarajevo
6 between the Muslim armed forces and the VRS. As for --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Gajic, can I ask you to please listen to the
8 question and answer the question that is asked. Now, again you're
9 bringing us back to official information now, because you are now saying,
10 Sir, we have the media reports, but we also had the intelligence.
11 Forget about intelligence, because that's official information.
12 You're being asked about unofficial information, and please stick to
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And thank you for your
18 There were media reports, and it could be seen on TV, things
19 about the crimes that were shown there.
20 MR. SAXON:
21 Q. Could you be a little bit more specific, sir. What things could
22 be seen on television?
23 A. Specifically the Markale incident, but there were conflicting
24 reports, and it was difficult to understand what exactly had occurred
25 there. That much I remember.
1 Q. Are you referring to the Markale incident in August of 1995?
2 A. Yes, that is right, sir.
3 Q. Prior to August of 1995, let's go back to, let's say, 1992, 1993,
4 1994, beginning of 1995. Did you see any reports on television -- excuse
5 me, any indications on television indicating that crimes might be
6 committed, were being committed in Sarajevo.
7 A. Sir, I don't remember that. From 1993 to April 1994, I was not
8 in the security administration. I had a different post elsewhere, and I
9 really don't remember.
10 Q. Sir, the questions I'm asking you have nothing to do with where
11 you were working at the time. I'm asking you about what you saw on
12 television. I'm talking about unofficial information, unofficial
13 indications. So my question for you is: During 1992, 1993, 1994, first
14 half of 1995, did you see indications on television that Serbian forces
15 might be committing crimes against Muslims in Sarajevo?
16 A. Sir, apart from Markale, I had no other knowledge.
17 Q. Very well. Let's turn our minds to the events in Srebrenica.
18 General Gajic, during the war - so that would be now through Dayton
19 end of 1995 - did you receive any official reports -- actually, I should
20 back up just so we can do this as clearly as possible.
21 In your testimony yesterday, you confirmed that you never
22 received any official intelligence reports about crimes in Srebrenica.
23 So my question for you now, sir, is: During the war, did you receive any
24 official reports from VJ units or organs outside the intelligence organs
25 describing crimes committed by Serb forces against Muslims in Srebrenica?
1 A. Sir, not as far as I remember, not a single one.
2 Q. During the war did you receive any official reports from other
3 FRY institutions or agencies apart from the VJ describing crimes
4 committed by Serb forces against Muslims in Srebrenica?
5 A. Sir, not as far as I remember.
6 Q. Let's go into the realm now of unofficial information or
7 unofficial indications. During the war did you receive any unofficial
8 information or indications about crimes committed by Serb forces against
9 Muslims in Srebrenica?
10 A. Yes, sir, again from the media.
11 Q. And what information did you receive?
12 A. Sir, as far as I remember, one of the foreign news agencies, I
13 believe sometime around July, it's very difficult for me to pinpoint the
14 exact point in time, spoke to one of the eyewitnesses, and then the
15 witness described the crimes in Srebrenica and stated what he knew about
17 Q. And this information in the news media came to your attention at
18 that time?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand that question, sir. The
20 witness has just told you what he heard --
21 MR. SAXON: Very well, sir. Absolutely right, sir. It's Friday.
22 Q. And what did you do with this information when you received it?
23 A. Sir, those were individual indications, unverified at the time.
24 Quite simply, I found it difficult when I read that, when I familiarised
25 myself with that, to even believe it. I simply could not bring myself to
1 believe that anything like that had happened. There was a lot of
2 conflicting coverage and reports in the press and in the media, generally
3 speaking. It was very difficult to wade through all that conflicting
4 information at the time and arrive at an accurate assessment of the
6 Q. And what did you do with that conflicting coverage and reports in
7 the media if -- did you do anything with it?
8 A. Sir, no, we didn't. This wasn't a counter-intelligence issue, if
9 I may put it that way. This would have been the subject of an
10 intelligence report, and that was for other bodies such as the judicial
11 bodies, and so on and so forth.
12 Q. I want to make sure I understand your evidence when you say this
13 wasn't a counter-intelligence issue.
14 The report -- the media report or the information that you
15 received was that a large number of Muslims had been killed by Serb
16 forces in around Srebrenica; is that right?
17 A. That's what the media claimed, yes.
18 Q. Srebrenica is close, geographically close to the border of the
19 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Isn't that right?
20 A. That's right, sir.
21 Q. When large numbers of people are killed, that often leads to
22 additional humanitarian problems, like flows of refugees.
23 A. That is right, sir.
24 Q. And a big part of your job was assessing information, wasn't it?
25 A. That's right, sir.
1 Q. And wouldn't it have been relevant to the security of the state
2 of the FRY that there might be additional humanitarian problems so close
3 to the FRY border?
4 A. That is right, sir. This would have constituted a humanitarian
5 problem, but quite certainly also a security problem.
6 Q. So how is it that you say that this was not an issue related to
8 A. Well, sir, only insofar as what I explained yesterday about the
9 Muslim soldiers escaping from Zepa into Serbia's territory. Had that
10 been the case with Srebrenica, it no doubt would have constituted a
11 security problem, and security officials would have been there to make
12 sure those people were adequately taken care of and put up, those fleeing
13 the Srebrenica area.
14 As far as the Srebrenica area itself was concerned, of course we
15 were following the situation to make sure whether there would be waves of
16 refugees that we would then be treating in keeping with International Law
17 of War and all the other humanitarian laws on conventions.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be an appropriate time, or would you
19 like to ask that one question?
20 MR. SAXON: I'm so sorry, Your Honour, but may I ask that one
21 question, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
23 MR. SAXON:
24 Q. So -- then I'll ask you again, sir, a question I asked a few
25 moments ago. Are you saying you did nothing with this information, as
1 conflicting as it might have been? Is that your evidence?
2 A. That's what I said, sir. I also said that it would have been
3 other bodies that would have been in charge of reacting to something like
4 that, primarily the judicial bodies, but also the VRS, as well as other
5 bodies at a later stage.
6 MR. SAXON: Shall we take the first break, Your Honour?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take the break and come back at quarter to
8 11.00. Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
12 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, before I continue, there is a small
13 error in the transcript that I'd like to ask to be changed. This is at
14 page 23, line 10, and the witness is speaking about reports in the media,
15 and in the transcript, English transcript, it says, "It was from the
16 media that we cleaned our earliest information," and I think that should
17 be "gleaned" with a G as opposed to a C.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON:
20 Q. General Gajic, before the break we were talking about these media
21 reports related to the events in Srebrenica that -- that reached you in
22 July of 1995. Can you tell us, sir, did -- did any person or part of the
23 VJ General Staff act on these reports?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 26, line 4. The witness
1 answered that information in a foreign publication was published sometime
2 in July 1995, but he didn't say when he heard that information, and now
3 the Prosecutor is implying as if he had heard about it in July.
4 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
6 MR. SAXON: I was actually instructed by the Bench earlier that
7 the witness had -- had said that there were foreign news agencies, I
8 believe sometime around July, and the witness described the crimes in
9 Srebrenica and stated what he knew about them, and you, yourself,
10 Your Honour, indicated to me that I didn't need to ask the witness
11 whether that came to his attention at the time.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, where are you reading now?
13 MR. SAXON: Page 26.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Line?
15 MR. SAXON: Beginning at line 2.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did I say? When -- when did the Bench
17 instruct you to --
18 MR. SAXON: Line 10, Your Honour, when I asked what was, in fact,
19 a redundant question, and you politely urged me to move on.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. And I didn't indicate when he had heard.
21 When he had heard, he mentions himself in the answer at line 2 -- at
22 line 4.
23 MR. SAXON: Correct, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. I'll tell you what my problem is with your
25 question, Mr. Saxon. Just give me a moment.
1 At page 28, starting at line 6, the witness has told you what
2 they did. He says:
3 "As far as the Srebrenica area itself was concerned, of course we
4 were following the situation to make sure whether there would be waves of
5 refugees that we would then be treating in keeping with International Law
6 of War and all the other humanitarian laws on conventions."
7 Then you said at line 16:
8 "So then I'll ask you again, sir, a question I asked you a few
9 moments ago. Are you saying you did nothing with this information?"
10 Now he's just told you what they did, you know, and your current
11 question is still going in that line; you still want to know what they
12 did. He has told you what they did, unless you want to say that they do
13 anything else in addition to what he has already told you.
14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. In --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I read your ruling on
18 page 26, line 10, in relation to what I said a minute ago. Nevertheless,
19 I stand by my previous objection. If you could please test that again.
20 I'm trying to see what Mr. Saxon actually wanted to ask.
21 You see at lines 4 through 7, the answer that we see there.
22 Perhaps it's not a good idea to say this in front of the witness, but the
23 answer doesn't show what Mr. Saxon is implying in his question.
24 "[In English] Sir, as far as I remember, one of the foreign news
25 agencies, I believe sometime around July. It's very difficult for me to
1 pinpoint the exact point in time, spoke to the one of eyewitness, and
2 then the witness described the crimes in Srebrenica and the state."
3 [Interpretation] He talks about a conversation with this witness
4 that was published in July, but he never actually said when he found out
5 about it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fair enough. So you want Mr. Saxon to find out
7 when he found out.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why can't you do that in re-examination if he
10 doesn't know how to find that?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, because in this question
12 Mr. Saxon is putting it to the witness that he heard that in July,
13 whereas in -- in fact the witness's answer does not suggest that. I'm
14 talking about Mr. Saxon's last question.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON:
17 Q. General Gajic, earlier today you referred to a foreign media
18 report sometime in July of 1995 about the events around Srebrenica. Do
19 you recall when you saw or heard that foreign media report?
20 A. Sir, as far as I remember, and again I have to say I can't
21 pinpoint the date, but it might have been 10 or 15 days later, before I
22 had an opportunity to read that. I'm not sure if it was one of the
23 printed media in the FRY that carried the report or not. I'm not
24 certain. Nevertheless, it did occur at least 10 to 15 days later, after
25 the foreign news agency first published the account.
1 I'm not sure if I --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Gajic, 10 or 15 days later than what?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after the foreign news
4 agency first published the account, 10 or 15 days later, a newspaper from
5 the FRY also carried the account of this eyewitness who described the
6 crimes in Srebrenica. I'm not sure if that makes it any clearer.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Until we know when the foreign media carried it
8 out, we are not able to add 10 or 15 days later. So if you tell us when
9 the foreign media reported that news, then we can add 10 or 15 days later
10 to -- to determine when you became aware of it.
11 Are you able to tell us when the foreign media reported the news?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I remember,
13 sometime after the 20th of July.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's satisfactory?
15 MR. SAXON: That's as far as we can go, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 MR. SAXON: Okay. Can we move into -- actually, one moment,
19 Q. Do you know, General Gajic, after these reports appeared in the
20 media in Belgrade
21 General Staff took any particular measures with respect to these reports?
22 A. Sir, not as far as I remember. It was a different country.
23 Republika Srpska was a different country. It had its own judiciary, its
24 own army, and this would have been something for them to deal with. It
25 was certainly beyond our own remit.
1 MR. SAXON: Can we move into private session, please,
2 Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
4 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
22 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness what is D268, please.
23 Q. You'll recall, General Gajic, that Mr. Lukic discussed this
24 document with you yesterday. It was at page 29 of the LiveNote, lines 1
25 through 9.
1 MR. SAXON: And can we go to the next page, please, in both
3 Q. This has to do with the role of foreign mercenaries fighting
4 against the Serbian people. Do you recall?
5 A. I do, sir.
6 Q. And starting at the first line of page 29, this is what you said,
7 you said:
8 "So this discusses the role of Croatia in the illegal arming and
9 making it possible for foreign mercenaries to cross its territory and use
10 their civilian and military infrastructure in order to reach Bosnia
12 1992 over in Bosnia and Herzegovina and even before Bosnia
14 And then you said at line 9:
15 "So Croatia
17 Do you recall that testimony?
18 A. I do, sir.
19 Q. General, is it your position that in March, April, early May
20 1992, the JNA was essentially a neutral player in the escalating conflict
21 between the ethnic Serb and Muslim communities in Bosnia and Herzegovina
22 A. Sir, yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness what is Exhibit P164,
1 Q. We see here a cover sheet dated the 10th of December, 1991, from
2 the Federal Secretariat for National Defence. This is being sent to the
3 commander of the 9th corps, and it says:
4 "We hereby enclose the directive of the Federal Secretary for
5 National Defence on the use of the armed forces in the forthcoming
7 MR. SAXON: Can we turn to the next page, please.
8 Q. And you'll see, General Gajic, we see this is entitled the same
9 title, the directive:
10 "The directive on the use of the armed forces for the preparation
11 and performance of combat operations in the forthcoming period."
12 MR. SAXON: Can we go first to the last page in both versions and
13 focus on the bottom.
14 Q. You'll see, General Gajic, this directive comes from army General
15 Veljko Kadijevic.
16 A. Yes, I'm following.
17 MR. SAXON: Can we please go to page 3 in both languages, please.
18 Q. General, I'd like you to focus on the paragraph underneath II
19 which says the following:
20 "Our armed forces are entering a new period of exceptional
21 significance for accomplishing the ultimate aims of the war: protection
22 of the Serbian population, a peaceful resolution of the Yugoslav crisis,
23 and the creation of conditions in which Yugoslavia may be preserved for
24 those peoples that wish to live in it."
25 General Kadijevic did not mention the protection of the Croat
1 population, did he?
2 A. No, but I have an explanation for that.
3 Q. General Kadijevic did not mention the protection of the Muslim
4 population, did he?
5 A. No, but I have an explanation for it.
6 Q. And so by the end of 1991 - this is December now - the JNA had
7 evolved from a multi-ethnic military force whose purpose was the
8 protection of all peoples in Yugoslavia
9 purpose it was to protect Serbian interests. Do you agree?
10 A. No, I do not.
11 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness what is Exhibit P185.
12 Q. General Gajic, this document dated the 20th of March, 1992
13 directed to the attention of the Chief of the General Staff. It's from
14 the command of the 2nd Military District. That would have been the JNA's
15 military district that would have included Sarajevo; correct?
16 A. Correct, sir.
17 Q. It's from Commander, General Milutin Kukanjac, and on the cover
18 page it says:
19 "Enclosed with the document, please find the requested assessment
20 with annexes concerning the situation and problems in the territory of
21 the Socialist Republic
22 Can you take --
23 MR. SAXON: Can we turn to the next page, please. And the next
25 Q. I'd like to give you a moment to review that first page. If we
1 can, at the very top of that page under "General comments," it says:
2 "Attached to this evaluation please find the following maps:
3 "Deployment of the JNA volunteer units in the zone of the 2nd
4 VO ..?"
5 "VO" stands for "military district;" is that right?
6 A. That's right, sir.
7 MR. SAXON: Can we go to the next page in both languages, please.
8 And here I'd like to correct an error in the English translation. Can we
9 scroll down in the B/C/S version, please. Can we go up in the B/C/S
10 version then. If we could go forward one more page in B/C/S, please.
11 Okay. And if we could focus on paragraph 3.
12 Q. General, you'll see towards the bottom of paragraph 3(a), we see
13 a date there. It's about four lines up from the bottom of the paragraph,
14 and in your version it says 3 to 4 March 1992, doesn't it?
15 A. Correct, sir.
16 MR. SAXON: So, Your Honours, in that same paragraph where it
17 says 3 to 4 April, that's an error; it should actually say March.
18 And if we can please turn to page --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where does the correction come from? Why do you
20 want to change this to March? How did this error come about?
21 MR. SAXON: The error is in the English translation, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, okay.
23 MR. SAXON: It says April.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
25 MR. SAXON: And the witness has clarified that it's March.
1 That's all.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
3 MR. SAXON: That's all. If we can please turn to page 6 in the
4 English and page 8 in the B/C/S version, please. Actually, can we scroll
5 up in English, please. And can we go back one page in B/C/S. Thank you.
6 And focus on the bottom of the page. There we go.
7 Q. General, you'll see there the number 5 in parentheses, and it
8 says, "Volunteer forces in the 2nd Military District zone ..." Are you
9 with me?
10 A. Yes, I'm with you.
11 Q. First it says:
12 "The volunteer units in the 2nd Military District zone are
13 indicated on the map and in the legend in great detail. In this
14 connection, the following should also be pointed out: The listed units
15 are organised in companies, detachments and battalions."
16 And it says, then, in subparagraph (b):
17 "The enlisted men number 69.198."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. I do, sir.
20 Q. Can we briefly leave this document -- actually, no. Stay here
21 for a moment, I think.
22 Under (c) it says:
23 "No volunteers are potential conscripts for the regular units of
24 the 2nd Military District, and only a small number are from the
25 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In other words, the
1 volunteer units are not part of the JNA and the TO establishment
3 A. Sir, I apologise. RJ is not an abbreviation for regular units
4 but wartime units.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. And are you following me with the rest of
6 subparagraph (c)?
7 A. I have followed.
8 Q. These volunteer units were not part of the JNA or the TO
9 establishment structure because these were Bosnian Serb volunteers.
10 Isn't that right?
11 A. I don't know, sir, what the actual personnel were, but I know
12 that according to the rules in force at the time in the Yugoslav People's
13 Army, it was lawful to form volunteer units.
14 Q. All right. Well, let's keep moving here. If you take a look at
15 subparagraph (d), it refers to numbers of men in the corps zones, and
16 then we see in subparagraph (f):
17 "The JNA has distributed 51.900 weapons (75 per cent), and the
19 We're talking about distribution of weapons to Bosnian Serb
20 volunteers, aren't we?
21 A. I've already answered that question, sir, regarding the
22 composition of the personnel and the rules of the Yugoslav People's Army.
23 Q. Isn't your evidence, General Gajic, that the JNA at this time was
24 distributing weapons to Muslims and Croats?
25 A. Sir, I do not have the necessary information, so I'm unable to
1 answer that question.
2 Q. Subparagraph (g) says:
3 "In Sarajevo
4 to retired officers (reliable ones), and in the next 3 to 4 days another
5 100 people will be armed ..."
6 If we go back up the page a little bit to this number, the
7 enlisted men number, 69.198, these enlisted men eventually became part of
8 the Army of Republika Srpska, didn't they?
9 A. Sir, I don't know. Probably. Probably the number were included,
10 but whether they all were, I don't know. I don't have the necessary
12 Q. Okay. Focus on this number in subparagraph (b):
13 "The enlisted men number 69.198."
14 Keep that number in your mind for a moment, please.
15 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness Exhibit P186.
16 Q. This is a -- part of the legend to General Kadijevic's [sic]
17 directive, and if you just take a look at the total in the column on the
18 right, you see the -- we see the word "TOTAL" in all capital letters and
19 then the number 69.198. Do you see that?
20 A. Yes, I see it, sir.
21 Q. And it's broken down -- if you take a look at the -- I don't --
22 the first seven to ten
23 municipalities in the Sarajevo
24 A. Not all of them, sir.
25 Q. All right. The first seven?
1 A. Yes, the first seven are.
2 Q. But we see that there are also men available in other parts of
3 Bosnia and Herzegovina, for example, number 52, Banja Luka, 2.000 men.
4 Do you see that?
5 A. Yes, I do, sir.
7 that were mentioned in the previous document as are indicated in the
9 MR. SAXON: I see my colleague is on his feet.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether Mr. Saxon made a
12 mistake on page 42, line 5, when he said that this document was an
13 attachment to the directive of the General Kadijevic. I think it's an
14 attachment to General Kukanjac's document. I think. I am not sure.
15 MR. SAXON: I'm grateful to Mr. Lukic for that correction. He's
16 absolutely right. I misspoke. It is an attachment to P185, which was
17 the document from General Kukanjac.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. SAXON:
21 Q. Now, these documents were produced in March of 1992, and it's
22 true, isn't it, that prior to the outbreak of hostilities, Bosnian Serb
23 forces, you can call them volunteer, what you will, were supported by the
24 JNA's provision of weaponry and material to the Bosnian Serbs?
25 A. Sir, as far as I saw and concluded, these were volunteer units,
1 and I told you what I had to say about volunteer units. But allow me to
2 say something, because you didn't give me a chance to do that in answer
3 to a couple of your questions. I said yes, but I have an explanation.
4 You have given me quite a lot of information here.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I may continue.
7 I think causes and effects have been confused here. I have been
8 following very carefully what you have been saying, but in the reports
9 and the assessments that you have shown, you have left out some very
10 significant segments which refer to an assessment of the situation in the
11 territory of Croatia
12 Yugoslav People's Army found itself in, and all the measures that were
13 taken were preventive measures, because all our assessments and
14 indubitable evidence showed that both in Croatia and Bosnia
16 We may, if you feel it necessary, to analyse these documents, looking at
17 them from this other side, if I can put it that way.
18 Q. If my colleague wants to discuss angles from the other side, he
19 can certainly do that on re-direct examination. But you describe these
20 measures taken by the Yugoslav People's Army as preventive measures.
21 Within this concept of preventive measures, would that include assisting
22 units, Bosnian Serb units, in driving out non-Serbs from communities such
23 as Bijeljina, Zvornik, and Visegrad?
24 A. Sir, that was not the plan or the order or the project of the
25 JNA. Quite the contrary, in fact. There is incontrovertible evidence to
1 the contrary. In Croatia
2 took refuge in JNA barracks. There is, I repeat, hard incontrovertible
3 evidence to that effect.
4 Q. Okay. I'd like to show --
5 MR. SAXON: Actually, I can't show the witness something.
6 Q. I'm going to read some evidence that this Chamber has received,
8 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honour, without giving the source of this
9 evidence, it is Exhibit P80. It's a public exhibit. And I'm going to
10 read from paragraphs 63, 65, and 67.
11 Q. General, according to one witness in this case, there was a
12 specific chronology in this sequence of events, referring to events in
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the first part of 1992.
14 "Similar things had occurred in Bijeljina, Zvornik, and also in
16 MR. SAXON: Can we please take this off the screen, please. I
17 didn't ask that this -- thank you.
18 Q. "And also in Visegrad, although I was not familiar to which
19 extent this had occurred in Visegrad. The volunteers would first come to
20 a certain place and then the killings, liquidations, the intimidation of
21 the population, panic, and so forth would follow. Then the JNA would
22 come in with the ostensible intention of establishing order. However,
23 all this would frighten the Muslim population, and they would be
24 ethnically cleansed. The fact that the army arrived in Bratunac two or
25 three days after the volunteers points to the fact that the same pattern
1 of events would be followed in Bratunac. All these events were conceived
2 with the goal of enabling the Serbs to take over power, and all this was
3 connected with the implementation of plan A and plan B and the creation
4 of Republika Srpska."
5 From the same witness, paragraph 65:
6 "The first part of events is related to April 1992 and the
7 municipalities of Zvornik, Bijeljina, Bratunac, Visegrad, and Srebrenica,
8 and must be linked to the moving out of the population. These events, in
9 effect, led to the population moving away from the Podrinje region. I'm
10 absolutely convinced that none of these events were accidental. All the
11 events had been planned."
12 And from paragraph 67:
13 "The conduct of the JNA, which was the official army at the time,
14 also bears out this thesis. The JNA remained in Bosnia until 15 May. It
15 was clear that the JNA placed itself on the side of the Serbs and that it
16 assisted in implementing the plan."
17 Don't you agree, General Gajic, that by May 1992, the JNA was
18 assisting Bosnian Serb forces in the ethnic cleansing of non-Serb
19 communities in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
20 A. Sir, I disagree. The portions of the statement that you quote
21 contradict what Mr. Lukic was questioning me about yesterday in relation
22 to the order of the BH Presidency, dated the 27th of April, and the order
23 of the commander of the TO staff and interior minister of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated the 29th of April, 1992, declaring war on the
25 JNA, after which all of the JNA barracks and installations were besieged.
1 Therefore, according to this statement, even if the JNA had wanted to
2 leave, it simply couldn't have left because all the roads out were
3 blocked. Therefore, this statement is contradictory. I can understand
4 that though. This is no more than a single person's account.
5 Q. Do you think, sir, that the provision of arms to the SDS
6 political party was a method to prevent violence that was used by the
7 JNA? That's what General Kukanjac described in Exhibit P185. Was that
8 another preventive measure to stop war from breaking out?
9 A. Sir, the statement that was made that the weapons were partly
10 distributed also to members of the SDS
11 were military conscripts who received weapons, and politically they were
12 in favour of the SDS
13 think I should be repeating this, saw its hand forced by the Bosnian
14 leadership, all the other institutions and the paramilitary formations
15 involved. The JNA, and I think I can say that because I was near the
16 very top of the hierarchy in the security administration, never meant to
17 stir up ethnic hatred. We were and have remained a multi-ethnic army,
18 and we loved all of the ethnic groups in the former JNA. We were brought
19 up in that spirit.
20 Q. And because the JNA, as you put it --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: In the former Yugoslavia
22 not the former JNA.
23 MR. SAXON:
24 Q. And because the JNA, as you put it, saw its hand forced it
25 decided to arm Bosnian Serb units in Bosnia and Herzegovina in early
1 1992. Isn't that right?
2 A. Sir, objectively speaking, the Serbs were the ethnic group in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina that was in jeopardy at the time. In 1990, the
4 Muslims had established the People's Patriotic League across
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, although formally they advocated a peaceful political
6 solution to the problems in Bosnia-Herzegovina. In actual fact, as we
7 saw yesterday, they opted for war.
8 Q. Can I interrupt, General. I'm going to stop you now. So then
9 can I take your response --
10 A. I do apologise.
11 Q. It's all right. Can I take your response, then, to my question
12 as a yes?
13 A. Yes. You can tell by looking at this that part of the weapons
14 were distributed to Serbs, and to some extent those were volunteers
15 units. The people described here as the SDS were people who had their
16 wartime assignments to wartime units, but their presence was not required
17 in the army and they were taken off this war roster. That was the normal
18 procedure. Volunteer units were now set up, which, under the rules that
19 applied in the JNA at the time, was allowed.
20 Q. And the military leadership of the JNA approved this policy of
21 arming the Bosnian Serb volunteer units, because, as you put it, their
22 hand was forced.
23 A. Yes. That was the reaction, but the JNA was in favour of a
24 political solution and a peaceful withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia
1 Q. Now, earlier we looked at a document that was Exhibit D268, the
2 document about foreign mercenaries, and with respect to that document,
3 you made the comment that Croatia
5 With respect to the arming of the Bosnian Serb units by the JNA,
6 the same could be said for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at the
7 time, couldn't it? It was counteracting the Resolutions of the UN
8 Security Council?
9 A. Sir, Croatia
10 Serbs were an ethnic group within Bosnia and Herzegovina. The
11 international recognition did not come before the 7th of April, 1992
12 they were a group in jeopardy at the time. I see this as a substantial
14 Q. All right. And, effectively, beginning in late 1991 or early
15 1992, the political and military leadership of the Federal Republic
17 Serbs. Isn't that right?
18 A. Sir, can you please repeat the question. I'm not sure you were
19 sufficiently specific.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe the confusion stems from the
21 period of time specified here. There is mention there of the Federal
22 Republic of Yugoslavia
23 before May that year.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I hope it's not asking too
25 much, could you please repeat the question.
1 MR. SAXON:
2 Q. It's not asking too much. It's fine.
3 By early 1992, it was the policy of the political and military
4 leadership of the -- what was still then the Socialist Federal Republic
5 of Yugoslavia
6 A. Sir, the JNA and the military leadership at the time had as their
7 main objective the preservation of the SFRY. They wanted to leave it to
8 the politicians to decide on its future. Objectively speaking,
9 Croatia Serbs were the group at the time facing the greatest jeopardy.
10 Following Croatia
11 adopted was a set of amendments to the constitution defining the Serbs as
12 an ethnic minority; whereas previously they had been defined as a
13 constituent nation. Needless to say, the Serbs were not consulted on
14 this occasion.
15 Q. All right. Let me try to ask my question a bit more
17 The -- by early 1992, the JNA was carrying out a state policy to
18 do whatever was possible to assist and protect the Serbs in the Republika
19 Srpska Krajina; right?
20 A. Yes, sir. I would not like to repeat myself, but they were the
21 group that was more at risk than any other group at the time.
22 Q. And at the same time, the JNA was carrying out a state policy to
23 do whatever was possible to assist and protect the Serbs in Bosnia
25 A. Sir, the JNA had its primary objective the task of keeping
1 clashes from breaking out between the three ethnic groups that had up to
2 that point in time lived side by side peacefully in a single country for
3 50 years. Nevertheless, political factors and a number of other
4 influences at the time kept that from happening. What that eventually
5 led to, regrettably, was an enormous tragedy for everyone involved.
6 Q. I fully agree with that, General, but can I take your response to
7 my question to be a yes?
8 A. Yes, that can be taken to be an affirmative answer, especially in
9 conjunction with the explanations that I have provided previously.
10 Q. All right. And this state policy continued even when the SFRY
11 became the FRY, and that state policy continued, really, throughout 1992,
12 1993, and until the Dayton Peace Accords at the end of 1995. Isn't that
14 A. Yes, sir. Yugoslavia
15 peaceful solution, and they consistently backed all the peace initiatives
16 of the international community.
17 Q. The policy I was referring to was the policy to do whatever was
18 possible to assist the Serbian populations in Republika Srpska Krajina
19 and the Republika Srpska. That's the policy I was referring to, sir. So
20 my question was, the JNA and then later the VJ, continued to carry out
21 that policy until the end of the war, until the Dayton Peace Accords in
22 late 1995.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, just because of the
25 significance of this particular question and answer, could we please
1 specify what policy we are talking about. This question has been
2 dragging on for some time, and I think the witness should be told in no
3 uncertain terms which period of time is in question and in what way the
4 SFRY Presidency gave its backing to Republika Srpska.
5 MR. SAXON: I think the witness, first of all, has answered my
6 question with respect to the first part of 1992. The policy, I stated
7 very clearly in my question, it's at line 25 of page 50, onto line 1 of
8 page 51, but I will repeat the question.
9 Q. General, with respect to this state policy to try and assist and
10 protect the Serbian communities in the Republika Srpska and the Republika
11 Srpska Krajina, that remained state policy of the Federal Republic
13 Accords, didn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the JNA, and then later the VJ, continued then to carry out
16 that state policy through the end of the war; right?
17 A. Sir, I think I have answered that.
18 Q. But I need -- well, just so the record's clear, is the answer
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the VJ's efforts to carry out this state policy to protect,
22 Serb populations in Republika Srpska Krajina and the Republika Srpska,
23 that included, for example, the deploying -- or transferring of officers
24 from the VJ to the armies of the Republika Srpska and the Army of
25 Republika Srpska Krajina, didn't it?
1 A. Sir, I think I explained that yesterday, but I'll repeat anyway.
2 There were several different categories of officers in the VRS.
3 As far as the VJ is concerned, it was on a voluntary basis that officers
4 were seconded to the VRS, specifically those who had been born in
5 Republika Srpska and were serving in the VJ. The same applied to any
6 other members of the VJ who of their own free will chose to go to the
8 Q. Pause there, please. But it was the -- it was the policy --
9 became the policy and the programme of the VJ to facilitate and permit
10 these secondments of officers; right?
11 A. No, sir. That was a decision taken by the Supreme Defence
12 Council and all the other supreme state bodies, including the FRY
13 parliament. General Staff of the VJ was the body that executed all these
14 decisions and orders.
15 Q. Very well. So it was the General Staff of the VJ that executed
16 these policies.
17 A. Yes, that is right.
18 Q. And --
19 A. Those decisions.
20 Q. Yes. And the state policy to protect and assist the -- actually,
21 let me step back for a moment.
22 The VJ's efforts to carry out this state policy to protect Serb
23 populations in the Republika Srpska Krajina and the Republika Srpska also
24 included, for example, the sending of large quantities of materiel,
25 weapons, ammunition, fuel, medical supplies to the Army of Republika
1 Srpska and the army of the Serbian Republic
2 A. Sir, if you mean military aid, the answer is yes. Again,
3 pursuant to decisions taken by the appropriate state bodies, the supreme
4 state bodies. We never tried to conceal that. It was a matter of public
6 Q. And it would have been extremely difficult for the VRS and the
7 SVK to conduct their own activities during the war without these
8 different kinds of assistance received from the VJ. Isn't that right?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Objection. This is asking the
11 witness to speculate.
12 MR. SAXON: This witness is a career military officer,
13 Your Honour, who was there at the time, and he should be able to at least
14 provide his belief or opinion on this.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is he giving evidence as a military expert?
16 MR. SAXON: He is not giving his evidence as a military expert,
17 Your Honour, but he is --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're asking for his personal opinion.
19 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness is a security officer,
21 and now his opinion is being elicited on materiel aid and its possible
22 significance to the VRS and the SVK, two altogether different armies. I
23 think what this leads to is pure speculation.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon says he's not asking him as an expert,
25 so he's not asking him as a security officer in the VJ but just his
1 opinion as a military officer, and of course he's quite free to say he's
2 able to answer the question or not able to answer that question. So your
3 objection is overruled.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Shall I repeat my question, General Gajic?
6 A. Yes, please, sir.
7 Q. It would have been extremely difficult for the VRS and the SVK to
8 conduct their own activities during the war without these different kinds
9 of assistance received from the Army of Yugoslavia. Isn't that right?
10 A. Sir, I disagree. I believe the VRS had sufficient material
11 resources available to it to engage in all their activities.
12 There is another thing. I'm not sure how much you know about
13 Serbs. Serbs tend to be able to find their way around and get places.
14 Had it not been for the aid, they would have found another way to do what
15 they were trying to do. Therefore, I don't think that was essential to
16 their activity, at least not as enshrined in your original question.
17 Q. But because of the aid that came from the VJ, there was no need
18 to, as you put it, find another way to do what they were trying to do;
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered the
22 question, on page 54, line 18 and 19.
23 MR. SAXON: I think I'm asking a different question, Your Honour,
24 based on the response of the witness.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: After that answer at page 54 the witness said
1 something else that prompted the question you asked. He said they would
2 have other ways of finding aid elsewhere. So that's a follow-up on that
4 Objection overruled.
5 MR. SAXON:
6 Q. General Gajic, because of the aid that came from the VJ, there
7 was no need to, as you put it, for the VRS and the SVK to find another
8 way to do what they were trying to do. Isn't that right?
9 A. Sir, I have different information, and that is that the Army of
10 Republika Srpska supplied itself from other channels, from Bulgaria
12 through which they supplied themselves with materiel and equipment. Even
13 from Greece
14 Q. The senior officer corps of the VRS and the SVK were made up
15 predominantly of officers from the Army of Yugoslavia who were seconded
16 to the VRS and the SVK. Isn't that right?
17 A. Sir, that's not quite correct. When the former Yugoslav People's
18 Army ceased to exist, the largest number of senior staff born in Croatia
19 and who had served in Croatia
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina voluntarily stayed behind in the Army of the Republika
21 Srpska and the army of the Serbian Krajina.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be a convenient moment?
23 MR. SAXON: It would, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at half past
25 12.00. Court adjourned.
1 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. General, I'd like to go back for a moment to a discussion we had
6 before the break, and I had asked you about the VJ's efforts to carry
7 out -- this is at page 53, beginning at line 5, and I'd asked you about
8 the VJ's provision of military aid to the armies of Republika Srpska and
9 the army of Serbian Republic
10 "Sir, if you mean military aid, the answer is yes. Again,
11 pursuant to decisions taken by the appropriate state bodies, the supreme
12 state bodies, we never tried to conceal that. It was a matter of public
14 Do you recall that?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. So is it your evidence that the -- the VJ gave its assistance and
17 military aid to the VRS and the SVK publicly?
18 A. Well, sir, when I said that it was common knowledge that the
19 public was aware of it, there were articles in the press about it, and as
20 far as I can remember I think this was discussed by the delegates in
21 parliament, so it was in that context that I had in mind when I said it
22 was in the public record.
23 Q. When you say, "We never tried to conceal that," who is the "we"
24 that you're referring to?
25 A. Thank you for this question. I wasn't specific enough. I mean
1 the state, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
2 Q. And do you include within that state, within that "we," the Army
3 of Yugoslavia
4 military aid?
5 A. Well, the Army of Yugoslavia, I don't think in public, but the
6 state bodies presented it, but I think it was well known even to military
7 and political representatives accredited to Belgrade. They knew about
8 that. They were aware of it.
9 Q. Well, you're aware, aren't you, that in May 1992 the
10 United Nations imposed sanctions against the Federal Republic
12 A. Yes, I am aware of that.
13 Q. Do you recall why those sanctions were imposed?
14 A. Well, sir, I think the sanctions were imposed to force all the
15 parties to deal with problems by political means in the former
17 Q. But specifically, the sanctions were imposed against the FRY
18 because of the FRY's assistance, military assistance, to the Republika
19 Srpska and Republic of Serbian Krajina; right?
20 A. I don't think so. I don't think that was the only reason. At
21 the time, it was felt that -- or, rather, the international community
22 felt that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was not cooperative enough
23 in those efforts to find a political settlement to the problems in the
24 former Yugoslavia
25 Q. When you say "it was not the only reason," but the military
1 assistance was one reason, wasn't it?
2 A. Sir, probably, yes.
3 Q. And these sanctions that were imposed by the UN against the FRY,
4 they were not fully lifted until after the Dayton Accords. Isn't that
6 A. As far as I can remember, they were lifted selectively.
7 Q. They were not fully lifted until after the Dayton Accords; right?
8 A. As far as I can remember, yes. That's -- they were not lifted.
9 Q. Now, if sanctions are imposed on a state by the international
10 community, such sanctions would effectively be a threat to the well-being
11 of that state. Isn't that right?
12 A. Yes, yes. The answer is yes.
13 Q. And so it would at that time, between 1992 and the
14 Dayton Accords, the end of 1995, it was not in the interests of the FRY
15 to see sanctions tightened, was it?
16 A. No, of course.
17 Q. It would not, then, have been in the interests of the FRY, or of
18 the VJ for that matter, to permit its military assistance to the RS and
19 the RSK to occur publicly. Isn't that right?
20 A. Well, this is a bit -- I think I've answered at that question.
21 It seems to me rather a dual question. I think I answered the question.
22 Q. Let me ask the question in another way. Since it was not in the
23 interests of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to see sanctions
24 tightened, it would have been against the interests of the FRY -- I'm
25 going to ask the question hopefully in a simpler way.
1 Since it was not in the interests of the Federal Republic
3 interests of the FRY, and therefore of the VJ, to conceal the continued
4 provision of military aid to the Army of Republika Srpska and the army of
5 the Serbian Republic
6 A. Sir, decisions about that aid were made by the highest state
7 leadership, and they regulated how this aid should be extended, in what
8 way, whether this should be known or not, et cetera. These were
9 political decisions, the details of which I am not familiar with. They
10 were political decisions.
11 Q. Right. Moving on to another topic --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, yesterday you indicated you might take
13 a session. You have taken two. How much longer are you going to be?
14 MR. SAXON: Hopefully about five minutes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness Exhibit D273, please.
17 Q. You see, General, this is a report that Mr. Lukic showed you
18 yesterday on the living conditions and presence of members of Muslim
19 armed forces at the holding centres at Mitrovo Polje and Branesko Polje.
20 Do you remember looking at this document?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. And it says in the beginning, the first paragraph, in the period
23 from 31 July to 25 October 1995
24 armed forces entered the FRY from the Zepa area, numbering a total of
25 799 persons. And then these 799 persons were -- remained within these
1 holding centres; is that right?
2 A. Sir, first of all it was the army that took them in and a
3 commission that was formed as I described yesterday, and they were
4 registered and then --
5 Q. All I need is a yes or no answer to my question, sir.
6 A. No. At first, no.
7 Q. Well, eventually these 799 persons found their way to these
8 holding centres; right?
9 A. I didn't get the interpretation.
10 That is right.
11 Q. Okay. This document deals with Muslims who crossed over in the
12 period 31 July through 25 October. Do you know what happened to the
13 Muslims who crossed the Drina River
14 entered the FRY between the middle of July and 31 July, 1995?
15 A. Sir, as far as I know, yesterday when I was looking through those
16 lists, I noted that among the members of the armed forces, the Muslim
17 armed forces, there were members of the 28th Division and certain
18 brigades from the 28th Division. And as for the period you have
19 specified, I don't know -- or, rather, I don't remember.
20 Q. Well, the truth is, General, that those Muslims who crossed over
21 before the 31st of July were returned to the Republika Srpska and killed.
22 Isn't that the truth?
23 A. Sir, that is something that I absolutely am not aware of.
24 Q. During your direct examination, this is at page 44 of the
25 LiveNote, discussing this same document, Mr. Lukic asked you what became
1 of these persons, the persons who are -- the 799 persons mentioned in
2 this report. And at page 44, beginning at line 16, you said the
4 "Mr. Lukic, I know that those persons were allowed to decide for
5 themselves as to what their next destination would be upon leaving the
6 reception centres. As far as I know, most of them headed west, most of
7 them through Hungary
9 Do you know, sir, if any of those Muslims expressed a desire to
10 return to Republika Srpska in the last part of 1995?
11 A. Sir, I don't know that.
12 Q. General, thank you very much for your time and your patience with
13 my questions.
14 MR. SAXON: I'll pass the witness, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
16 Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon, for this
18 co-ordination of efforts.
19 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] General, good afternoon once again.
21 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.
22 Q. I assume you wish to return to your family as soon as possible,
23 so I shall try and focus on the most important points so that we can
24 really finished today.
25 My first question -- for my first question, could we go into
1 private session, and could we put P215 on the screen.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the Chamber please move into private
4 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session. Sorry.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, Mr. Saxon asking you whether you stand by your thesis
13 that these were three separate armies, showed you a set of documents that
14 I should like us to go back to, and they relate to the personnel status
15 of certain officers.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have on the screen P2128,
17 page 3, please.
18 Q. We'll first look at the name of Mr. Tolimir. This was shown to
19 you by the Prosecutor.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 3, please.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have page 3.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The bottom part of the page when we
23 see the data for Mr. Zdravko Tolimir.
24 Q. In the examination-in-chief, it was stated that Mr. Tolimir,
25 Zdravko, was assistant for -- of the Chief of Staff for intelligence.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now let us look at the B/C/S page 3,
2 please. The English is okay.
3 Q. You said that you're not very familiar with personnel affairs,
4 but what I'm going to ask you is more in your professional field.
5 The date mentioned is the 10th of November, 1993. You see the
6 date, and Mr. Saxon mentioned it.
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And it is stated, as Mr. Saxon said, that he's being appointed to
9 the Chief of Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia in the 30th centre of the
10 Main Staff under that date as assistant chief. Then a bit lower it says
11 that until then, according to the peacetime establishment, he was chief
12 of the security organ in the command of the 2nd Military District, FC
13 Colonel PG11 as of the 30th of August, 1990, Sarajevo Garrison. Do you
14 see that?
15 A. Yes, I do, Mr. Lukic.
16 Q. Yesterday and today we saw several documents where the
17 2nd Military District is mentioned and signed by General Kukanjac. Did
18 the 2nd Military District exist until the 10th of November, 1993?
19 A. Mr. Lukic, it did not.
20 Q. When did the 2nd Military District cease to exist?
21 A. Mr. Lukic, as far as I can remember around the 15th of May when
22 the pull-out started, that is May 1992 when the pull out of the JNA from
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina started.
24 Q. In the structure of the Yugoslav People's Army -- or, rather, the
25 Army of Yugoslavia
1 the 2nd Military District exist after May 1992?
2 A. Mr. Lukic, it did not.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now put on the screen
4 document from the 65 ter list of the Prosecution, 7386. In the B/C/S
5 page 41. This document in the set of Defence documents. Unfortunately,
6 we do not have an English translation of this document, so I will cover
7 it with the help of the witness, or at least parts of it.
8 Q. I'm going to read it aloud, and could the witness just confirm
9 whether I'm reading correctly.
10 It is a decree by the president of the Republika Srpska, dated
11 the 16th of December, 1992.
12 "Pursuant to Article 11, 168 and 369 of the Law on the Army of
13 Republika Srpska, according to peacetime and wartime establishment we
14 appoint Tolimir Zdravko."
15 I leave out the data, and then says in capitals:
16 "To the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, the Sector
17 for Intelligence, Security Affairs."
18 Then I leave out again some details, and lower down it says:
19 "Up until now, according to peacetime establishment, he was head
20 of the administration for security, intelligence affairs in the
21 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, establishment rank
22 major general, group 9, dated the 10th of June, 1992."
23 Then again I leave out some of the text, we'll just see who is
24 the signatory.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we scroll up.
1 Q. Yes.
2 Signature, the President of Republika Srpska,
3 Dr. Radovan Karadzic.
4 Have I read out correctly this document?
5 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic, you read it out correctly.
6 Q. What does this document tell you? In which army and when and at
7 what position was Mr. Tolimir?
8 A. Mr. Lukic, this document clearly shows that Zdravko Tolimir, by
9 decree of the president of the Republic of Srpska
10 appointed to a general's position on the 10th of June, 1992, and to the
11 Main Staff of the Serbian Army of Krajina, and that is the competence of
12 the president of the republic.
13 Q. I think you made a slip of the tongue. You didn't mean the Army
14 of Krajina but the Army of Republika Srpska.
15 A. I apologise.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would tender this
17 document into evidence.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I don't object to the admission of the
20 document, but since we do not have an English translation, I'd ask that
21 it be marked for identification at this time.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's only fair, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's something else
24 that I might add, and I see the Registrar was going to react. This
25 document under number 1796P is in the evidence in the B/C/S version, but
1 other portions have been admitted in English. If you remember, those are
2 personnel files, and to the best of my understanding of your
3 instructions, only what has been translated into English is part of the
4 P evidence, and now we need to have a new number for the rest of the
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think we should follow the practice that we have
8 been following all the time. Documents which belong must stay together.
9 We'll make it part of P1796, but this part will be MFI'd until the
10 translation is provided.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour.
12 Q. May we now please go back in relation to Petar Salapura, OTP
13 Exhibit P2128, page 3 in the B/C/S, I believe. The same page number in
15 You testified in relation to Petar Salapura, that he was in the
16 intelligence organ, intelligence security organ of the Main Staff of the
18 A. That's right, Mr. Lukic.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Can Mr. Lukic please speak
20 closer into the microphone. The interpreter can't hear him.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, you heard that? Please speak closer to
22 the microphone. The interpreter don't hear you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I didn't, and I apologise.
24 Q. I think we might as well keep this, this portion in English,
25 although the name Petar Salapura occurs in the previous page. And the
1 Prosecutor showed you this. Mr. Saxon used this document to put it to
2 you that Petar Salapura on the 10th of November, 1993, was appointed to
3 the 30th Personnel Centre, the General Staff of the VJ, chief of the
4 intelligence department.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The first sentence that you can see
6 in English, Your Honours, is the sentence that I will be asking the
7 witness a question about.
8 Q. Just as I asked you in relation to Mr. Tolimir a minute ago, I
9 will ask you about Mr. Salapura too. Do you know that on the 10th of
10 November, 1993, there was something called the 2nd Military District in
11 the VJ?
12 A. No, Mr. Lukic, I didn't know that.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
15 MR. SAXON: I'm very sorry to interrupt. It's just -- could we
16 have the --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The correct page?
18 MR. SAXON: The correct page on the e-court, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I heard Mr. Lukic earlier say, "Let's stay with
20 this page" -- [overlapping speakers]... the previous page, so --
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We might as well show the previous
22 page just to make sure it's in reference to Mr. Salapura. This part of
23 the document is in English, and that's what I am discussing with the
24 witness. Therefore -- so just to repeat this, in English you can see
25 number 3, first name, last name, date, the 10th of November, 1993. And
1 what Mr. Saxon showed you yesterday. And now could we please move on to
2 the next page and focus on my question.
3 Q. Where was he based on this document, or where had he been up to
4 this date, I asked you. And you answered the question, Mr. Gajic. You
5 said that on the 10th of November, 1993, there was no such thing as a
6 2nd Military District.
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Not in the VJ at any rate.
9 And what about February 1992? Was there such a thing as the
10 2nd Military District back in February?
11 A. Yes, there was. There was at that time, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm done with this document, and I'm
13 moving on to another document that you were shown by Mr. Saxon yesterday.
14 This requires private session. This is P2518.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please move into private session.
16 [Private session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're -- we're in private session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Yesterday I made an objection about the transcript, about the
22 translation specifically. I would like to read this back and the general
23 can please confirm whether my reading is accurate. The handwritten
24 portion, General.
25 "Call and send if he wants. If not, a proposal."
1 Is my reading correct?
2 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic, your reading is correct.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You see the discrepancy,
4 Your Honours, between the translation. Since this is actually
5 significant, I move that we request an official translation of the
6 handwritten portion from CLSS.
7 Q. General, are you familiar with this person's handwriting by any
9 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic, certainly. This is Momcilo Perisic, chief of the
10 General Staff, and it actually reads "MP," Momcilo Perisic, his very own
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You just ask that we get an official translation
13 of this document. So to be able to do that, then we must change the
14 status of the document from an exhibit to an exhibit marked for
15 identification pending that translation.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If Mr. Saxon agrees, if the Chamber
17 agrees, based on what we have just quoted in the courtroom, which was
18 interpreted accurately, I believe, I think there is no longer a need for
19 an official translation of the entire document. That need has been
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you say so.
22 And if Mr. Saxon agrees.
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I think the better procedure would be to
24 get an official translation. That's what I would ask.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: If the parties can't agree, then may we get an
1 official translation, and for that reason, therefore, P2518 shall be
2 marked for identification.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we please go back into open
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move back into open
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 2 -- P2103.
14 Q. Another document you were shown by Mr. Saxon. It's about
15 Mr. Svetozar Kosoric. This is an order by the commander of the
16 Drina Corps, signed by Commander General Krstic.
17 Let me ask you, first of all, the Drina Corps was part of which
19 A. The VRS, Mr. Lukic.
20 Q. A brief follow-up question on this document. He was appointed as
21 a delegate of the chief of the intelligence department in the organ for
22 intelligence security-related issues in a corps of the land forces in the
23 30th Personnel Centre. You were a security officer yourself. Therefore,
24 I will ask you this: Are you familiar with the fact that within the
25 establishment of the VJ at the time there was a post like this such as I
1 have just read out to you?
2 A. No, Mr. Lukic. There was the security department of the corps.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have P1151 brought up
5 on our screens. Thank you.
6 Q. Another document that you were shown by Mr. Saxon. You remember
7 this document, sir, don't you?
8 A. Indeed I do, Mr. Lukic.
9 Q. This is a document by the recruitment, mobilisation sector of the
10 General Staff of the VJ. It was sent to the personnel administration on
11 of the 40th Personnel Centre. The last paragraph, and that's in relation
12 to the preceding two paragraphs:
13 "Please issue the above-mentioned person with an authorisation to
14 return to his original unit and a receipt for the time he spent in the
15 40th Personnel Centre."
16 Had the VRS been a component of the VJ, would there have to be a
17 need for approval to be granted like this?
18 A. No. It would have been much simpler. An order would have to be
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have P7314, B/C/S
21 page 10, English page 7. These are instructions governing the work of --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: 7314 we don't have, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 734.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Instructions governing the work of
1 the special personnel centres, dated November 1993. This is page 1, and
2 can we please have page 10 of the English -- rather, page 10 of the
3 B/C/S, and page 10 of the English which happens to be the last page.
4 Q. I don't believe you've seen this document before, General.
5 Nevertheless, I will read out a portion to you and ask to have your
6 position on that.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 33, Your Honours.
8 Q. "In keeping with the service requirements, professional soldiers
9 and civilian personnel sent or transferred to the personnel centre may be
10 returned, assigned, or transferred to VJ units, institutions with the
11 consent or on the recommendation of the KC Main Staff. Consent or
12 recommendations for persons described under paragraph 1 herein shall be
13 sent to the KC personnel department, which shall immediately draw up the
14 documents stipulated and direct the persons to report to his previous
15 unit, institution, or transfer, assign, or appoint them to a post within
16 the purview of the VJ and GS, Chief of the General Staff and President of
17 the FRY in the Yugoslav Army."
18 Is this consistent with what you were shown a minute ago? Is
19 this the kind of approval that is sought for someone to go back?
20 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
21 Q. And what about this, sir: If someone leaves the VRS without
22 seeking proper authorisation from the VRS, what would their status be in
23 that army?
24 A. Mr. Lukic, they would have the status of a deserter because that
25 person is within their chain of command.
1 Q. P2598, please. The B/C/S reference is page 8, and the English is
2 page 9. 2598. Yes, that's right.
3 We are looking for Tihomir Babic. You remember being asked
4 questions about him yesterday.
5 A. Yes, I do, Mr. Lukic.
6 Q. Mr. Saxon talked to you about some information regarding
7 Mr. Tihomir Babic in this document, his actual return to the VJ. The
8 Loznica Garrison would be in the VJ; right?
9 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 Q. I apologise if the question was leading. I'm just trying to save
11 time and conclude as soon as possible.
12 Could this person have returned to the Loznica Garrison, could
13 this order have been issued without previous authorisation from the
14 Main Staff of the VRS Main Staff?
15 A. No, Mr. Lukic, that would not have been possible.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see Prosecution
17 Exhibit P1856.
18 [In English] P1856.
19 Q. [Interpretation] This is another document that you were shown by
20 Mr. Saxon yesterday, and it was about the same person?
21 A. Yes, indeed.
22 Q. Document of the Main Staff of the VRS sent to the command of the
24 I just want to know your position, sir, on the substance of this
25 order. It says Tihomir Babic infantry is transferred from the
1 30th Personnel Centre to a VJ unit pursuant to an order by the relevant
2 officer. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Based on what it says, the 30th Personnel Centre would be in the
5 VJ, wouldn't it?
6 A. It was subordinated to the personnel administration.
7 Q. The document says -- can you take a look at what it says? He was
8 transferred from the 30th personnel centre to a VJ unit. Does this
9 decision effectively take him back to a VJ unit?
10 A. Yes, that's precisely what it does. He's hereby returning to a
11 VJ unit.
12 I'm sorry, I didn't quite fully understand your question the
13 first time around.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
15 MR. SAXON: That was quite a leading question, but I see that the
16 witness has answered it.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are aware of time constraints, but we must stay
18 within the rules.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I'm done with this set of documents, and I'm about to embark on a
21 set of questions in relation to a much-debated subject, specifically we
22 talked about this yesterday. Were these three different armies, or in
23 fact a single army? We have looked at a number of documents. We
24 analysed the rules of service of the security organ suggesting that the
25 security administration was the supreme technical body in terms of
1 security in the VJ.
2 A. Yes. That's quite right, Mr. Lukic.
3 Q. What security organ is directly subordinated to the security
4 administration in terms of security-related issues?
5 A. Mr. Lukic, that would have been the security department of the
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON: I don't think this question arises out of
9 cross-examination, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I please be allowed to ask two
12 further questions to explain why this is pertinent as to whether these
13 were three different armies or not.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm afraid, Mr. Lukic, there is an objection.
15 You've got to deal with the objection before you can ask any further
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon asked a whole set of
18 questions about whether these were in fact three different armies or not.
19 I'm asking this question to see about the security chain of command of
20 the VJ. I'm trying to ask the witness about the chain of command in
21 which the VRS and SVK security organs were. I think this question stems
22 directly from the cross-examination by Mr. Saxon.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're shaking your head, Mr. Saxon. Are you
24 saying you never asked any question about whether these are three
25 separate armies or one army?
1 MR. SAXON: I did, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You did.
3 MR. SAXON: I --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Well, looking at the security chain of command, who was
7 subordinated to the army security organs?
8 A. Mr. Lukic, it was the corps's security bodies that were
9 subordinated to them in the security chain of command. I'm talking about
10 the VJ.
11 Q. In a technical sense, and we looked at all those documents about
12 technical guidance, you, when I say you, I mean the security
13 administration, were you in a position to issue any instructions or
14 orders in terms of technical guidance to those subordinated organs?
15 A. Yes. That is the case, Mr. Lukic.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Sorry, Mr. Lukic.
17 I don't know whether everybody else is hearing what I'm hearing.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, there is phone ringing in the
19 English booth, but we have absolutely nothing to do with that, and don't
20 know why that is the case.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
22 Thank you very much, Mr. Interpreter.
23 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You as the security administration, were you in a position to
1 issue an order like that to any security organ from the VRS or indeed the
3 A. Mr. Lukic, a categorical answer would be no.
4 Q. Thank you. Let's try to be more specific. Do you know of anyone
5 from the security administration adopting an order, a set of instructions
6 perhaps, an assignment for Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Beara, Mr. Raseta, or any of
7 the security officials of those armies?
8 A. Mr. Lukic, the answer is no.
9 Q. Thank you. You were shown a set of documents by Mr. Saxon today,
10 intelligence information of the intelligence security organ of the VRS,
11 dated May 1995. Among other addressees, there were two in the VJ, one
12 being the personnel administration -- the security administration; the
13 other being the intelligence administration. I would like you to focus
14 your attention on certain types of information, primarily in relation to
15 the 28th Division.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Lukic please
17 speak closer to the microphone or speak up because I can't hear him
18 properly. Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters would like you to speak closer to
20 microphone or speak up because they are not able to hear you, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. These reports describe the activities of which army primarily?
23 A. Mr. Lukic, the activities of the VRS.
24 Q. What about these intelligence reports? When they describe the
25 activities of the VRS, do they focus on such information showing what the
1 enemy was doing or what the VRS was doing?
2 A. These focus on enemy activity and any reaction by the VRS.
3 Q. Why are these reports signed by intelligence officers with the
4 intelligence and security department of the VRS? Why not by Beara
5 himself? Can you comment, sir, please, because we saw that all these
6 documents were signed by intelligence officers.
7 A. Mr. Lukic, the simple reason was that this was intelligence they
8 were dealing with gathered by intelligence officers using their own
9 methods and means. This wasn't pure counter-intelligence work, as I
10 believe I explained to Mr. Saxon in roughly the same terms.
11 Q. You were shown the Dragomir Milosevic sentence from the
12 Dragomir Milosevic trial. You saw the basis for that?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Dragomir Milosevic sentence from his trial, or the
14 judgement in his claim in Belgrade
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is P822.
16 Q. On that occasion --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Lukic please face
18 the microphone and not away from the microphone. We really can't hear
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please face the microphone.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It must be the courtroom.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: We can't get you a longer microphone.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You looked at the sentence. Mr. Saxon showed you the sentence.
25 In what capacity was Mr. Milosevic heard there? I know you're not lawyer
2 A. As far as I could tell, he was the plaintiff. He brought charges
3 against the state.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have the document that
5 we were looking at, P164. We looked at that with Mr. Saxon a while ago.
6 That is the report by General Kukanjac.
7 Q. Mr. Saxon showed you this document while explaining his theory
8 that the army was not neutral, rather that it was primarily protecting
9 the Serb interests. You answered questions about that a while ago,
10 didn't you?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Switch off the other mike.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I gave the wrong number. P5 --
14 [In English] P185, B/C/S 5, English 5.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say the number again.
16 MR. LUKIC: P185. Page 5 English, page 5 B/C/S.
17 Q. [Interpretation] I'm reading what it says under (b). Mr. Saxon
18 told you it refers to an event that occurred in March 1992 in Sarajevo
19 Mr. Kukanjac says here:
20 "Thanks to a strong anti-army campaign by the SDA leadership, the
21 mass media, and some other institutions, the majority of the Muslim
22 population has a fairly reserved attitude towards our army. However, the
23 role of the JNA on the said night has helped considerably to restore the
24 confidence of the Muslim population in the JNA. The district command
25 received the most telegrams, letters, and telephone calls from Muslims
1 thanking us for having prevented bloodshed. We have information that the
2 SDA and some other party leaderships are considering a plan to again turn
3 the Muslim people against the JNA. So far they have not been successful
4 in that."
5 General, before the Federal Republic
6 May 1992, or, rather, during the existence the former SFRY, what was the
7 constitutional role of the JNA?
8 A. Mr. Lukic, the main constitutional role of the JNA was to protect
9 the integrity and sovereignty of the then Socialist Federal Republic of
11 Q. In performing this task, was the JNA for or against all those who
12 wished to remain within the SFRY?
13 A. Mr. Lukic, from the very beginning the military leadership was in
14 favour of the survival of Yugoslavia
15 to decide their own destiny and that the JNA would accept any political
17 Q. Do you know whether the JNA armed in those days those who wanted
18 to leave the SFRY, that is, those with secessionist intentions?
19 A. Mr. Lukic, the answer is no.
20 Q. In view of this basic or fundamental constitutional role of the
21 JNA, did it act in accordance with the decisions of the highest political
22 leadership of the then SFRY with respect to the arming of those who
23 recognised the SFRY and the JNA?
24 A. Mr. Lukic, the answer is yes.
25 Q. Do you know whether there were any distinctions made on an ethnic
1 basis of those who accepted the JNA and the constitutional order of the
2 SFRY and were not Serbs?
3 A. Mr. Lukic, there was no distinction. For as long as the JNA
4 existed, it was absolutely multi-ethnic.
5 Q. Do you know whether through the bodies of Territorial Defence
6 which accepted the SFRY using those TO organs were Muslim and Croats that
7 accepted the TO also armed?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I have just one more question. Let me see your answer on
10 page 51, line 24, in answer to a question by Mr. Saxon. Here is the
11 question put to you by Mr. Saxon:
12 "[In English] General, with respect to this state policy to try
13 to assist and to protect the Serbian communities in Republika Srpska and
14 Republika Srpska Krajina, that remained the state policy of the Federal
15 Republic of Yugoslavia
16 Peace Accords, didn't it?"
17 [Interpretation] Your answer was, Yes.
18 You remember this question?
19 A. Yes, I do, Mr. Lukic.
20 Q. And that was a sequence of questions, because according to
21 Mr. Saxon's case, the leadership now of the Federal Republic
23 Republika Srpska and the Serbian people in Republika Srpska and the
24 Republic of Serbian
25 Vance-Owen Plan?
1 A. Yes, of course, in 1993.
2 Q. What was the proposal behind what plan, do you know?
3 A. Mr. Lukic, the plan proposed that a peaceful settlement be
4 accepted in Bosnia and Herzegovina and that the war be ended.
5 Q. What was the position of the leadership of the Federal Republic
6 of Yugoslavia
7 A. Mr. Lukic, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Army of
9 Q. And what was the position of Republika Srpska and the Army of
10 Republika Srpska in connection with that plan?
11 A. Mr. Lukic, the leadership of Republika Srpska and the military
12 leadership of Republika Srpska rejected the plan, and the plan was
13 rejected at a meeting of the Assembly of Republika Srpska. And also
14 present on that occasion was Mr. Mitsotakis, who was at the time
15 prime minister of Greece
16 Q. Do you remember what was the position of President
17 Slobodan Milosevic and Mr. Mitsotakis at that Assembly meeting?
18 A. Mr. Lukic, it was unpleasant. Every attempt to persuade the
19 people that there was no other alternative, that the alternative was war
20 or peace and -- however, they did not accept. Republika Srpska, the
21 Assembly of Republika Srpska, did not accept it, and the highest
22 leadership of that republic.
23 Q. Who proposed peace, and who proposed that the plan be accepted in
24 that Assembly?
25 A. Mr. Lukic, Milosevic on behalf of the Federal Republic
2 Q. Mr. Gajic, have you heard of the Contact Group Plan?
3 A. Yes, I heard of it. This was from August -- or, rather, from the
4 middle of 1994.
5 Q. What was the position of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
6 the Army of Yugoslavia with respect to that plan?
7 A. Mr. Lukic, it was absolutely accepted by the Federal Republic
9 chance for achieving peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 Q. What was the position of the political leadership of
11 Republika Srpska and the Army of Republika Srpska in respect to the
12 adoption of the Contact Group Plan?
13 A. Mr. Lukic, they emphatically rejected that plan, and they treated
14 this as a betrayal of their interests, the interests of Republika Srpska.
15 Q. Did this have certain consequences in relations between the
16 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska?
17 A. Immediately after this, sanctions were enforced against
18 Republika Srpska by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
19 Q. In view of what I read out a moment ago and that Mr. Saxon asked
20 you about, do you still consider that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
21 and the Army of Yugoslavia always supported the positions of
22 Republika Srpska and the Army of Republika Srpska until the end of the
23 war in 1995?
24 A. No, I was not precise in answering that question.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gajic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to all of you and the
2 interpreters for the speed of my questions, but I wanted to complete this
3 testimony by the end of the day.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, I have a question to
6 put to you. To be quite honest, I have some difficulty in believing
7 regarding what you said about the events in Srebrenica and when you said
8 that you learnt about what was happening after the beginning of the month
9 of August, several days after the event. I wonder, you were head of
10 military security. Where do you get information that allows you to do
11 your work in the field of security. Where does your information come
13 A. Your Honour, pursuant to the information we received, they came
14 from the military intelligence administration of the General Staff of the
15 Army of Yugoslavia
16 the intelligence sector of the Army of Republika Srpska.
17 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Therefore, that information came
18 from the ground, came from military men who were in the field.
19 A. Your Honour, yes, that is correct.
20 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Therefore, in spite of the fact
21 that you had information coming directly from soldiers who were in
22 Srebrenica during the events of the month of July, so no information
23 reached you before the beginning of the month of August or mid-August?
24 And again through the media, according to what you told us. It was only
25 from the media that you learnt what had happened.
1 A. Your Honour, in the information that I referred to, there was no
2 information about crimes committed in Srebrenica.
3 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] That is why I'm so astonished.
4 You had no information of crimes committed in Srebrenica; whereas you had
5 men on the ground who were informing you. So I really don't know. Maybe
6 your intelligence services were not too effective, but I am having
7 difficulty in understanding that.
8 A. Your Honour, those were not our intelligence organs in
9 Republika Srpska. They were members of the intelligence organs of the
10 Army of Republika Srpska. So that means of quite a different army, and
11 they informed us.
12 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I see, but I am talking about the
13 Yugoslav Army. You had your own men who were informing you from
14 Republika Srpska. You did not depend exclusively on the information from
15 the VRS.
16 A. Your Honour, those operative positions, as we called them, with
17 the collapse or break-up of Yugoslavia
18 had far more information reaching us as to what was happening abroad
19 regarding illegal arming, mercenaries, and so on, which they sent us on a
20 regular basis.
21 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, it's not credible what
22 you're saying. Half of the officers who were in the VRS, they came from
23 the VJ, a large number in any event, a certain percentage anyway. They
24 were paid by you, and they were not informing you?
25 A. Your Honour, we in the counter-intelligence had our own sources
1 that were registered sources. They were not all members of -- not all
2 members of the army were obliged to inform the counter-intelligence
4 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. I won't insist,
5 because you're not going to answer my question. I do not find you to be
6 very credible in your answers.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Judge.
8 JUDGE DAVID: General, I will ask you a very brief question due
9 to the hour.
10 The Prosecutor, as well as Mr. Lukic, showed you an exhibit in
11 which General Dragomir Milosevic demanded the state of Serbia
13 Republika Srpska, as he said in the narrative.
14 My question to you: As a general of the Yugoslav Army who also
15 had experience in the Army of Republika Srpska, as you said, why this
16 demand even though you are not a lawyer, was not issued against
17 Republika Srpska and only to the Republic of Serbia
18 you know why? Is any information in your possession, official or
19 nonofficial, not only as a security officer but as a general and soldier
20 of the -- of both armies.
21 A. Your Honour, I saw this document for the first time, and I'm
22 really not familiar with the case, so I can't give you a proper answer
23 and meet your interest. I'm afraid that if I were to say anything due to
24 lack of knowledge, I could be misleading, so I do apologise.
25 JUDGE DAVID: Do you know of any officer of the 30th Personnel
1 Centre who, suffering injuries at the front in the Republika Srpska Army,
2 had ever issued a demand against the Republika Srpska? Do you know of
3 any case?
4 A. Your Honours, I do not. I am not familiar with any single case.
5 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are the parties going to have questions arising
7 from the questions from the Bench?
8 Mr. Saxon?
9 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Mr. Gajic, that brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank
14 you very much for coming to testify at the Tribunal. You are now
15 excused. You may stand down, and please travel well back home.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, ladies and gentlemen,
17 thank you for your fairness, and I wish you a pleasant weekend.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Thank you.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The matter stands adjourned to Monday, the 15th of
21 March, at 9.00 in the morning in Courtroom II. Court adjourned.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.
23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day
24 of March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.