Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11258

 1                           Tuesday, 23 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 8             Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom.

 9             This is case number IT-04-81-T, The Prosecutor versus

10     Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Could we have the appearances for the day, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. SAXON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon,

15     Bronagh McKenna, and Inger de Ru.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

17             And for the Defence.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

19             Good afternoon to all participants in these proceedings.

20     Mr. Perisic is represented today by Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, and

21     Boris Zorko.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             For the record, the Chamber is still sitting pursuant to

24     Rule 15 bis in Judge David's absence.  He is still indisposed.

25             Good afternoon, Mr. Malcic.  Good afternoon, Mr. Malcic.

Page 11259

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to remind you, sir, that you are still bound

 3     by the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell

 4     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  STOJAN MALCIC [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much -- thank you.

 9             Mr. Lukic.

10                           Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, good afternoon.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13        Q.   We will continue from where we broke off yesterday.  However, in

14     order to ensure continuity, can we please look at the document we ended

15     with yesterday.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we have D301 on our screens,

17     please.

18        Q.   Let us recall what we discussed yesterday.

19             We actually finished with this document.  This is important

20     because I would like to ensure continuity in terms of your career that

21     we're dealing with now.

22             This is a document of the Minister of Defence of

23     Republika Srpska, Mr. Kovacevic, appointing you to the Main Staff of the

24     Army of Republika Srpska.  You are appointed head of the department for

25     personnel affairs and, at the same time, you were deputy assistant

Page 11260

 1     commander for organisation, mobilisation, and personnel affairs.  And

 2     that is part of the sector for organisation, mobilisation, and personal

 3     affairs.  It's a complicated name.  But, according to this document, that

 4     was the appointment that you had then on the 3rd of September, 1993.

 5             So we've already seen that.

 6        A.   That is the post I held until the end of the war.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I must remind counsel and witness to please break

 8     between question and answer.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, yes.

10        Q.   When this order was passed, what was the document that followed

11     this order dated the 3rd of September, 1993?

12        A.   The next document was the report on hand-over of duty; I signed

13     it; and it was certified by my superior officer.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document

15     [In English] doc ID 1D11-0493.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does it have a D at the end?

17             MR. LUKIC:  No.  It's not from 65 ter Defence witnesses.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] What is this now, Mr. Malcic?

19        A.   This is a report on taking up duty on the basis of the previous

20     order.  We see here the exact date when I assumed that duty.  I signed

21     the document.  And it was certified by Mico Grubor, my superior.

22        Q.   So let me not repeat that long name of your new position.  But it

23     was within the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

24             You were appointed chief of a department?

25        A.   Yes, on the basis of the previous order.

Page 11261

 1        Q.   In relation to your status rights concerning your salary, what

 2     happened on the basis of this document?

 3        A.   The order that we previously saw on our screen -- and in this

 4     report, we saw that I was receiving a salary that was two salary grades

 5     higher than previously, because I'm moving towards number 1.  I'm moving

 6     towards the top level, number 1.  This document is sent to the military

 7     accounting centre, "racunovodstveni," because it changed its name often.

 8     It was called "racunski," computer centre, as well.  So that is what I'm

 9     going call it.  That was the centre that actually calculated the salaries

10     of active-duty military personnel.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, but the question was, On this form here,

12     what happened to your salary?  We see here there is an 8 and a 7.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of this document, I

14     started receiving my new salary, because this document was sent to the

15     military accounting centre, where the salary was calculated on the basis

16     of new elements.  I had a higher position group now, that is to say, I

17     was better paid.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Group 8?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have an exhibit number

22     for this document, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

24     please be given an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00302.

Page 11262

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   We are dealing with matters chronologically now.  This is before

 4     the personnel centres were established.

 5             In addition to your regular salary, during this first period of

 6     time, did you receive any other benefits?  Did you enjoy any other status

 7     benefits as if you were a member of the Army of Yugoslavia?

 8        A.   As far as I can remember, at the time, they just recognised that

 9     we would have a higher salary on the basis of the payment group

10     concerned.  I'm not sure and I do not recall that we received any extra

11     benefits, as prescribed by the rules on payments, such as a separation

12     grant and other grants and benefits.  Perhaps we did receive them;

13     perhaps we didn't.  At this point in time, I really cannot remember.

14        Q.   Now we're going to look at a document and perhaps that will jog

15     your memory.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have on our screens

17     now [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... 1D11-0500.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

19             MR. LUKIC:  Doc ID 1D11-0500.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   We saw that your appointment took place and that it was on the

23     3rd of September that the minister made that decision for the period

24     starting the 1st of June, 1993.

25             We, in this courtroom, know that this is the period before the

Page 11263

 1     personnel centres were established.  Can you tell us what this is?

 2        A.   It was only in mid-1993, as I see in this document, that we

 3     received instructions to the effect that we could make decisions for

 4     active-duty personnel serving in the Army of Republika Srpska on benefits

 5     enjoyed on account of living separately from one's family.  We did not

 6     live with our families, so that was an entitlement we had on the basis of

 7     the rules and regulations.  We were entitled to an allowance if we did

 8     not live within the same garrison with our families.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at page 2,

10     please.

11        Q.   What we see here is that this was submitted to various

12     addressees.  Can you tell us who the addressees were and whose stamp this

13     is?

14        A.   This document goes directly to the military accounting centre in

15     Belgrade where my salary was calculated, and the square stamp is -- or,

16     rather, the other stamp by the signature is of the

17     Army of Republika Srpska, the round stamp.  And here you can see that the

18     accounting centre in Belgrade received the document, that is, the square

19     stamp that we see below.  And they therefore received it.

20        Q.   You said the centre in Belgrade?

21        A.   Here it says the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence in

22     Belgrade.  I told you, they changed their name several times, so please

23     do forgive me if I get a bit confused.

24        Q.   Who signed the document?

25        A.   My superior at the time, Mico Grubor.

Page 11264

 1        Q.   Whose stamp is this, which army?

 2        A.   As I said a moment ago, it's a stamp -- it is, rather, the stamp

 3     of the military post code of the Main Staff of the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska.  At that time, it was denoted Sarajevo.

 5        Q.   At that time, before personnel centres were established, were

 6     these documents sent directly to the accounting centre?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please get an exhibit number

 9     for this document, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

11     please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D00303.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And another document, please.  I'd

15     like us to have a look at it.

16             The document is doc ID [In English] [Previous translation

17     continues] ... 11-0492.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you see this right?

19        A.   Could you please zoom in a bit?  Very well.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the English now

21     as well so that the Trial Chamber can follow.

22        Q.   What is this document?  What does it speak of?

23        A.   This is a decision of Military Post 7572, or, rather, the

24     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  It is a decision pertaining

25     to myself, stating that I am entitled to benefits that are actually a

Page 11265

 1     hardship allowance, because we received information then that they were

 2     entitled to such benefits too.  In order to enjoy this benefit, a proper

 3     document had to be passed and that is this particular decision.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the bottom of the

 5     document so that we see who signed it.

 6        Q.   We saw that it was the military post code of Sarajevo?

 7        A.   This document specifically was signed by commander of the

 8     Main Staff Colonel General Ratko Mladic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we move the document to the

10     left a bit so that we can see who it was sent to.

11        Q.   It says here RC MO VG?

12        A.   It says "To the person concerned."  That's what it says first.

13     So I received a copy.  That is the first bullet point.  One copy was sent

14     directly to the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence of the

15     Army of Yugoslavia and yet another copy was sent to archives.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom out because I am

17     looking for another comment.

18        Q.   See here on the right there is something else; there's a stamp?

19     Could you perhaps tell us whose stamp that is on the right-hand side?

20        A.   It is the stamp of the controller from the accounting centre of

21     the Ministry of Defence of the Army of Yugoslavia hereby certifying that

22     the decision was reached in accordance with the rules in the

23     Army of Yugoslavia.  Therefore, that I'm entitled to these benefits.

24        Q.   First I'm going to ask you whether you remember, whether you, in

25     the personnel administration of the Main Staff, whether you ever had

Page 11266

 1     documents returned to you.  If that was the case, why were they returned

 2     to you?

 3        A.   We did our best to ensure that every one of our documents is

 4     proper.  If a document that was not right would be sent to the accounting

 5     centre of the Ministry of Defence of the Army of Yugoslavia, then this

 6     controller who controlled these documents would return this document to

 7     us directly to the Main Staff, noting that we had made an error.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us how many such cases had you in your career, if

 9     any?

10        A.   I do not remember that there ever were such cases specifically in

11     relation to what we did at the Main Staff.  But if that did happen, we

12     did as ordered.  We rectified the mistake concerned, and we'd send a

13     proper document.

14        Q.   Was it possible for anyone in the accounting centre to order you

15     to do anything, or did they just furnish comments?

16             MR. SAXON:  Objection.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

18             MR. SAXON:  Well, the way that was question was structured,

19     particularly after the last response of the witness, suggests the answer

20     that Mr. Lukic wants.  It's a leading question.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I asked a simple question of

23     the witness.  I didn't include any leading or suggestive remark.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are -- are you suggesting something, sir.  You

25     had asked the question previously.  It got answered.  And if you -- you

Page 11267

 1     want further information, still ask an open-ended question.  Don't

 2     suggest an answer.  You are suggesting an answer.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase it, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   If the accounting centre found out that the document was not

 5     consistent with the VJ rules and regulations, what would your course of

 6     action be in that case?

 7             MR. SAXON:  Objection.  Asked and answered.  The witness has

 8     already testified, we did as ordered; we rectified the mistake concerned

 9     and would send a proper document.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second, please.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.  The witness

12     said that rectification had to be done as ordered, but I wanted to

13     establish who was it who was entitled to order them to do such things.

14     That is what I wanted to elicit from the witness.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question that you put didn't ask for that

18     information that you're now saying you want.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have to go step by step to see what

20     happens in the event of irregularities established or found out by the

21     accounting centre.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... put the

23     question -- put the question to the witness that you've just explained to

24     the Bench you want to put.  Who ordered.  That's the question.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11268

 1        Q.   Mr. Malcic, who ordered you or who was entitled to order you to

 2     rectify a mistake, if any?

 3        A.   I am a professional serviceman, and I only know the relationship

 4     between superiors and subordinates.  Only professional staff worked at

 5     the accounting centre who processed our documents.  They didn't have any

 6     powers to issue any orders.  They could only establish that something was

 7     contrary to the applicable regulations, and in that case they would

 8     return such document to us.  I made a slip of the tongue when I said that

 9     we were ordered by them to correct our mistakes.  They would, rather,

10     tell us that we had made a mistake in a decision and that we should

11     rectify this mistake.  They would tell us specifically which mistake was

12     in question, and that is what I had in mind when I gave you my answer.

13     And I apologise for using the military vocabulary that I'm used to.

14             It could have been a civilian working in the accounting centre or

15     maybe an active-duty serviceman.  And particularly, if it were a

16     civilian, there was no way for such a civilian to give us any orders to

17     do anything.

18        Q.   As a follow-up, was anyone from the VJ entitled to give you any

19     orders?

20        A.   I never received any order from the Yugoslav Army.  All the

21     orders were received by my superior who was in the Main Staff of

22     Republika Srpska.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have an exhibit number

24     for this document, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, can we go to the last page of

Page 11269

 1     this document, please.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  After that, I've noticed a

 3     slight mistake in the interpretation or in the translation.  But we'll

 4     deal with that later.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  As to the list of addressees where the name

 6     of the witness is mentioned and then the second bullet in -- second

 7     bullet, the interpretation told us that that is the accounting centre of

 8     the Ministry of Defence of the Serbian army.  Is that the correct

 9     interpretation?  It suggested that the Serbian army had a

10     Ministry of Defence.  That's how it has been interpreted on several

11     occasions.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Republika Srpska had

13     its Ministry of Defence.  But as it's written here, it's the

14     Ministry of Defence of the Yugoslav Army.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Microphone, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry.  I will repeat myself.

18             My question is:  Does the Yugoslav Army have a Ministry of

19     Defence, or does the Ministry of Defence belong to the state of

20     Yugoslavia?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  You first said Serbia,

22     and that is why -- caused confusion with my --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if the witness can help

25     us with that, or are you asking me to comment on this?  Maybe we should

Page 11270

 1     better ask the witness about this.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... witness.  I'm

 3     asking the witness whether that -- is he correctly interpreted?

 4             That addressee, sir, is interpreted in English as -- I suppose

 5     the RC is the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence of the

 6     Yugoslav Army.

 7             Is that what -- the name of that addressee?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... question to

10     you is: Does the Yugoslav Army have a Ministry of Defence?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, the Yugoslav Army

12     does not have the Ministry of Defence.  The federal government -- the

13     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had its government with ministries,

14     various ministries, one of the ministries was the Ministry of Defence of

15     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... understand the

17     name the Ministry of Defence of the Yugoslav Army; that's why I'm

18     asking my -- whether you were correctly interpreted.  Because that name

19     suggests that this Ministry of Defence belongs to the Yugoslav Army and

20     not to the Federation of Yugoslavia.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how we called it in an

22     abbreviated form.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, okay.

24             You may proceed, sir.

25             You said you wanted to correct something before we continued.

Page 11271

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  In the English translation on

 2     the previous page and now it says that it's written "Stojan Ivacic."  And

 3     you can also see in the English translation if you scroll it up a bit, or

 4     down, in the second paragraph it says -- in the second and third

 5     paragraphs it says "Stojan Ivacic."  I suppose it's just a typo.  If we

 6     establish here for the record that we are talking about Stojan Malcic, I

 7     suppose we don't have to send the translation back for correction.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

 9             MR. SAXON:  It's fine with the Prosecution, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Then it's fine.  Then the document is

11     admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00304.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Just before we continue, I want to

15     make sure that I understood properly.

16             You said that you would not receive orders from the accounting

17     services, from the Yugoslav Army, but from your superiors, from your

18     immediate superiors.  Did they receive orders from the accounting centres

19     of the Yugoslav Army?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  If I may explain, the

21     accounting centre was a centre that only performed technical services, in

22     terms of computing salaries, based on the documents that we supplied to

23     them.  They didn't have any powers or authority to command.  They were a

24     simple service that were processing our documents.

25             When I said that some documents were returned to us if there were

Page 11272

 1     irregularities, I made a slip of the tongue when I said that we were

 2     ordered by them to correct the mistake.  We were just told by them to

 3     correct the mistake that was found out.  Because a technical service

 4     cannot order anything to anyone; all they can do is to perform the duty

 5     that they're supposed to do, based on the documents that they receive.

 6             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I do understand.  It is quite

 7     logical.

 8             If you were to turn down, if you did think that it was not a

 9     mistake, and if you would not correct the error, what would happen?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We couldn't refuse to correct the

11     mistake because it was very obvious from the document where the mistake

12     occurred, if we compared this document to the applicable rules and

13     regulations.

14             These were simply technical or clerical errors.

15             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Could there be no mistake in terms

16     of interpreting the text of ruling the accounting centre?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That could not happen to me when I

18     drafted this decision because these things were done by professionals who

19     interpreted everything properly.  We spoke here, if such thing happened.

20     I underlined that nothing of the kind happened to me.  I did my best to

21     avoid making such mistakes in the document that I drafted with my staff

22     at the personnel department of the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska.

23             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Yesterday, towards the end, we spoke about how you heard about

Page 11273

 1     the establishing of the personnel centres and with whom you contacted

 2     after their inception.  You spoke about your contacts with Mr. Mijic and

 3     about the records that were set up following the establishment of the

 4     personnel centres.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P2128.  That's a

 6     Prosecution exhibit.

 7        Q.   This is a document that have quite a few pages.  We are going to

 8     look at page 1 first.

 9             This is a compound order of the head of the personnel

10     administration of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army dated the

11     7th of February, 1994, and the first name mentioned here is Mico Grubor.

12             Let me first ask you, Mr. Malcic, do you know what this document

13     is about and who drafted it?

14        A.   This is an order on the appointment of active-duty officers

15     serving in the Army of Republika Srpska according to establishment and

16     according to the positions that they were appointed to in the

17     Army of Republika Srpska.

18        Q.   But as can you see in this document, it's written something else.

19     It says Mico Grubor, 7th of February, 1994, as of 10th of November, 1993,

20     shall be appointed to the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army to the

21     30th Personnel Centre as assistant chief of the General Staff.

22             Let me first ask you this:  Was Mr. Mico Grubor ever in the

23     General Staff of the Yugoslav Army and its 30th Personnel Centre, as

24     stated in this document?

25        A.   General Mico Grubor, from 1992, was assistant chief of the

Page 11274

 1     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska for mobilisation and

 2     personnel.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please switch off the

 4     microphone while the witness is speaking.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you asked to please switch off your microphone

 6     when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So what were you told?  Why do we see here the

 9     30th Personnel Centre mentioned here if he remained in the VRS?

10        A.   This order shows that the 30th Personnel Centre was established

11     on the 10th of November, 1993; whereas, the order was written on the

12     7th of February, 1994.

13             This period of approximately two months was required for setting

14     up exact records for active-duty servicemen in the

15     Army of Republika Srpska and that they be collated.  I, as the head of

16     the personnel department of the Main Staff of the VRS, and Gojko Mijic

17     from the 30th Personnel Centre of the VJ, as is written here, were to do

18     that.  This 30th Personnel Centre now operated as a technical service who

19     received proposals and documents from us in the Army of Republika Srpska;

20     and then, in turn, this centre verified whether the documents were issued

21     in accordance with the VJ rules and regulations and whether, as such, can

22     be forward to the accounting centre for payment.

23             For that reason, he had to, based on our proposals that we

24     supplied in the meantime, to appoint all the officers that served in the

25     Army of Republika Srpska as shown here in this order.  It says here that

Page 11275

 1     Mico Grubor was appointed, and the -- the first line it says in the

 2     General Staff of the VJ and actually to its 30th Personnel Centre.

 3     However, the other details confirm that he was serving in the Main Staff

 4     of the Army of Republika Srpska and discharging the duty of assistant

 5     commander for organisation, mobilisation, and personnel affairs.

 6        Q.   Please don't touch the screen.

 7        A.   I apologise.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... little bit.  I

 9     guess it may have disappeared in some of the screens.

10             At page 16, line 11, and at page -- any way, it's two places.

11     The first being at page 16, line 11, we are being told of the date of the

12     10th of November, 1993, or -- and also page 17, line 2,

13     10th of November, 1993.  I see 12th.  I don't see 10th on the document.

14             Can I be helped, please, just to make sure that we have the same

15     document.  On the document I see the date of the 12th, and I looked at

16     both the B/C/S and the English.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Your Honours, perhaps it would

18     be a good idea if the witness could put a circle around where he sees

19     this date, the 10th of November, 1993, using this electronic pen.

20        Q.   Just a moment, Mr. Malcic, please wait.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That will be very helpful.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 10th of November, 1993.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now I see -- oh, okay.  Thank you.

25             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

Page 11276

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Who provided these data to the 30th Personnel Centre, these

 3     codes?

 4        A.   Codes?

 5        Q.   I'll ask you specifically.  How is it that you see that

 6     Mico Grubor is in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska?  Is

 7     there a parameter specifying that?

 8        A.   I know that these orders were made on the basis of our orders, on

 9     the basis of which these officers were truly appointed to duties in the

10     Army of Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   Now, which are the parameters involved?  I'll ask you a

12     specifically only about this number 3500 or, rather, the document we

13     looked at yesterday.

14        A.   Oh, that code.  3500.  That is from our formation of the

15     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  Because further on it says

16     in the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, in the

17     30th Personnel Centre in the Main Staff.  So the Main Staff is what

18     counts, and that is its code.  3500.  When the establishment was being

19     worked out on the basis of the code table, this was specified for the

20     Main Staff.  That is our code for the Army of Republika Srpska.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now go at -- go to page --

22     well, I don't know what the witness marked now.  Should we have that

23     admitted as a separate exhibit or not?  Perhaps it's clear enough to the

24     Trial Chamber.  Perhaps -- well, no problem.  No, it's okay.

25             In B/C/S, 25.  And in English, 27 and part of page 28, please.

Page 11277

 1        Q.   In this same document, we also see the following information.

 2     Malcic Stojan, son of Petar, again, the 10th of November, 1993, is

 3     referred to as a date.  And then it says:

 4             "General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, 30th Personnel Centre

 5     in the Main Staff, as section chief."

 6             Now I'm going to ask you the following, Mr. Malcic.  A few

 7     moments ago we read that long title that you held when you were appointed

 8     to this duty, so I don't want to repeat it once again.  During your

 9     military service, were you -- did you ever serve in the

10     30th Personnel Centre of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia in

11     the Main Staff as section chief?

12        A.   No.  No.  May I explain?

13        Q.   Could you please repeat when this order was ordered --

14     February -- issued, February 1994.  What position did you hold?

15        A.   Head of the personnel department in the sector for mobilisation

16     and organisational affairs in the Main Staff of the

17     Army of Republika Srpska.  It's a long title.

18        Q.   Did you receive this document from the 30th Personnel Centre,

19     and, after that, did you do anything at your personnel department in this

20     regard?

21        A.   I received this document.  And on the basis of this document, I

22     compiled a report on the hand-over of duty.  And I signed it and

23     Mico Grubor, my superior, signed it as well, and we sent it back to the

24     30th Personnel Centre so that they would then forward it to the

25     accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence of the Army of

Page 11278

 1     Republika Srpska -- of the Army of Yugoslav because we could not

 2     communicate directly anymore with them.  We had to go through the

 3     personnel centre because they were there to --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down, sir.  The interpreter is struggling.

 5     Okay?

 6             You may continue.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That report on the hand-over of

 8     duty, let me repeat that.  We submitted that to the

 9     30th Personnel Centre, because now we had that organ as a technical

10     service controlling our documents.  And then they forwarded it to the

11     accounting centre.  We could not communicate directly with the accounting

12     centre any longer, except in some urgent cases perhaps we could address

13     them directly then.  I'm not sure.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In terms of form, was it the same document that you sent earlier

16     on to the accounting centre directly?

17        A.   It is exactly the same form.  I think that we used the exact same

18     forms, the ones that we found and that were used in the former JNA.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at another

20     document.  Could we have it on our screens.

21             Just a second, Your Honours.

22                           [Defence counsel confer]

23             MR. LUKIC:  Doc ID [Interpretation] 1D11-0491, please.

24        Q.   This is a report on taking up duty.  The date is the

25     10th of November, 1993.  It concerns Stojan Malcic, who took up duty on

Page 11279

 1     the 10th of November, 1993, chief of section in the Main Staff in the

 2     30th Personnel Centre, the Yugoslavia army General Staff.

 3             What can you tell me about this document, Mr. Malcic?

 4        A.   This is a report on taking up duty on the basis of the previous

 5     order that we saw here on the screen.

 6             We see here that it was exactly on the 10th of November, 1993,

 7     that I took up the duty of chief of section, as it says here.  It was

 8     department, actually, but in order to have the proper kind of document,

 9     what was written in the order had to be copied verbatim.

10             So we sent this in two copies to that technical service of ours,

11     that 30th Personnel Centre.  One copy was certified here by the signature

12     of my superior, Mico Grubor.  The other one was signed, but it did not

13     have a stamp.  It's Military Post Code 3001 that was stamped there, that

14     is to say, the 30th Personnel Centre.  And that was supposed to show the

15     accounting centre that the document had gone through the

16     30th Personnel Centre.

17        Q.   Just a moment, please, let us be more specific.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the bottom of the

19     document, please.

20        Q.   We see here the stamp of Military Post 3001.  In the Main Staff

21     of the Army of Republika Srpska, did you have that stamp of the

22     Military Post 3001?

23        A.   No, we did not.

24        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, did anyone in the Main Staff of

25     the Army of Republika Srpska have that stamp?

Page 11280

 1        A.   No.  This is a stamp --

 2        Q.   Just a moment, please.  To the best of your knowledge, who had

 3     this stamp, and when is this stamp affixed on a document?

 4        A.   It is only the 30th Personnel Centre that had this stamp and also

 5     that square stamp.  So the round stamp and the square stamp was only in

 6     the 30th Personnel Centre.  Gojko Mijic had it.  As far as I know, no one

 7     else had these stamps.

 8        Q.   The document was signed by who?

 9        A.   Can you see here very nicely, Mico Grubor, my superior in the

10     Army of the Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   Tell me, now, why is there no stamp here of the

12     Army of Republika Srpska, what you tried to explain to us a few moments

13     ago?

14        A.   Because that is what was agreed upon technically, that I should

15     submit two such forms to the 30th Personnel Centre; one stamped with a

16     stamp of the Main Staff.  I think that 7572 Sarajevo was the

17     military post code.  And the other document would not be stamped, it

18     would just be signed.  Then when it arrives in the 30th Personnel Centre,

19     then Gojko Mijic sees that this second copy was signed by the officer,

20     and then he affixes the stamp of Military Post 3001.  And that was the

21     agreement that this is how we would deal with documents.

22        Q.   Once again, I'm going to ask you, since you signed this document,

23     were you ever chief of sector in the Main Staff of the

24     30th Personnel Centre of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia?

25        A.   I see that you're asking me this question for the second time

Page 11281

 1     now.  I hope that you understand this time.

 2             This order consists of two parts; the left side where we write

 3     the names according to establishment as we saw and on the right-hand side

 4     where we just have these numbers.  Now, these numbers were set on the

 5     basis of code tables, on the basis of instructions for dealing with these

 6     names that were later on used for automatic data processing as we called

 7     it then.  Since the code tables could actually deal with my name because

 8     my name was not very long, so Mijic just cut this short.  Some people

 9     were chiefs of sections, others were chiefs of department, but it was

10     easier for him to put that code for chief of section.  And then he would

11     have that code and that would mean that it was in that organ.

12             I don't know if I'm being clear about this.

13        Q.   Did you ever serve in the Army of Yugoslavia?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   The stamp that you see here on the right-hand side, it says the

16     13th of May, 1994.  Seen as correct.

17        A.   Again, this is the controller at the accounting centre.  I cannot

18     see on the basis of the signature whether it's a military person or a

19     civilian.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have an exhibit

21     number for this document, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

23     an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00305.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 11282

 1             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Yesterday we looked at the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska,

 4     and I would like us to have a look at another document now.

 5             We'd like to hear your comments with regard to another topic

 6     [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... 117.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say that again, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have to move into private session.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

10                           [Private session]

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Page 11283

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12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   When we discussed appointments a while ago, I have a question in

17     relation to that.  If a professional serviceman in the

18     Army of Republika Srpska is transferred from one post to another, was

19     there anyone in the Yugoslav Army that took part in this decision?

20        A.   No.  That was exclusively under the jurisdiction of the officer

21     in charge of the VRS, pursuant to the decree on the status-related issues

22     in the VRS.  We didn't use any other documents as a basis for

23     appointments.  No one could give us any written or oral order in that

24     respect with the exception of the officer in charge.

25        Q.   If this transfer from one post to another does not affect in any

Page 11287

 1     way his status-related benefits, salary, and things like that, do you at

 2     all have to inform the personnel centre thereof?

 3        A.   No.  There was no need for that because the -- it didn't produce

 4     any effect on the salary.  We could only provide a copy of this document

 5     for the purpose of updating the personal file of that individual so that

 6     there wouldn't be any surprises at a later stage when it's discovered

 7     that he was transferred from one post to another.

 8        Q.   Let us now talk about promotions.

 9             According to the regulations of the Army of Republika Srpska, who

10     decided on promotions?

11        A.   Only the officer in charge defined by the bylaw or by the decree

12     who made a decision on promotions of officers.

13        Q.   Yesterday we reviewed the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska,

14     which provides promotions and who decides on promotions of the

15     highest-ranking officers.  For example, who issues a decision when we are

16     speaking about promotion to the rank of general?

17        A.   The president of the republic issues a decree promoting a -- an

18     individual to the rank of general, that is to say, the president of

19     Republika Srpska.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   I don't know if I'm going to use the proper term.  What is the

23     Personnel Council of the Main Staff of the VRS -- or, rather, was there

24     any kind of body in the Main Staff that was involved in any way in

25     promotions of officers?

Page 11288

 1        A.   Immediately, when the Army of Republika Srpska was set up, and

 2     pursuant to the establishment, an order was issued to that -- which

 3     provided that all the promotions and appointments shall be --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 5     repeat the last answer.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

 7     answer, sir.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I'm going to repeat the whole question.

10             So can you tell us what was the Personnel Council of the

11     Main Staff of the VRS?

12        A.   The Personnel Council of the Main Staff of the VRS was a body

13     established at the level of the Main Staff of the VRS.  Its task was to

14     discuss and reach decisions on promotions and decorations of all members

15     of the Army of Republika Srpska.  That's in the shortest possible way

16     that I can explain this.

17        Q.   Do you know who sat on this council, roughly speaking?

18        A.   As far as I remember, the Personnel Council of the commander of

19     the Main Staff was made up of the commander of the Main Staff, all his

20     assistants, the corps commanders, the commander of the air force and

21     anti-aircraft defence, and sometimes, by invitation, the commanders of

22     the staff units of the communications regiment, the protection regiment,

23     the logistics base, and other units that I cannot remember at the moment

24     took part in the work of the council; or, chiefs of branches in the

25     Main Staff of Republika Srpska.

Page 11289

 1        Q.   How often did this council meet?  I am not looking for a precise

 2     answer.

 3        A.   As far as I know, it met twice a year:  On the 28th of June,

 4     which is the patron saint day of the VRS; and towards the end of the year

 5     on the day of Republika Srpska.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at half -- at

 7     4.00.

 8             Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you. [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Before the break, we started talking about promotions and the

14     Personnel Council of the Main Staff of the VRS.  You told us the

15     composition of the council and how often it met.

16             Can you tell us now what was basically the role of this council?

17     What did it discuss, and what decisions it took.  Can you tell us also

18     what kind of documents were prepared for the council sessions, and did

19     you take part in the preparation of these documents?

20        A.   The Personnel Council mainly discussed the status-related issues

21     of all officers and non-commissioned officers serving in the

22     Army of Republika Srpska.  Primarily, it discussed promotions,

23     appointments of officers with higher ranks that were under the

24     jurisdiction of the minister of defence, and also under the jurisdiction

25     of the commander of the Main Staff.

Page 11290

 1             The Personnel Council of the Main Staff discussed and took

 2     decisions on decorations to be accorded to all members of the

 3     Army of Republika Srpska, starting from privates up to the

 4     highest-ranking officers in the VRS.  It drafted proposals.  Actually, we

 5     drafted proposals, submitted them to the minister of defence for further

 6     processing, because it was under the jurisdiction of the president of

 7     Republika Srpska to accord decorations to members of the VRS by issuing

 8     decrees to that effect.

 9             I, myself, made all the technical preparations alongside with my

10     direct subordinates by collecting information from lower-ranking units.

11             I would like to underline that each corps commander had his own

12     Personnel Council.  These councils discussed the aforementioned issues

13     relating to the members of their respective corps.

14        Q.   The person in charge, regardless of whether it's the president of

15     the republic or the minister of defence or the commander of the

16     Main Staff, whoever is in charge of promotions once a decision on that is

17     passed, what happens with the document?  Does that have anything to do

18     with your personal department?

19        A.   Yes, because I prepared all the necessary information through my

20     superior officer and personally at the Personnel Council sessions.  I

21     would present that to them so that a proper decision would be made.  It

22     is only logical that I would be informed as to which proposals of ours

23     were accepted and which were not.  At any rate, for the most part, if I

24     remember correctly, I actually cannot remember having a single one of our

25     proposals refused.  They were all discussed in detail, and appropriate

Page 11291

 1     decisions were made on the basis of regulations in the

 2     Army of Republika Srpska.

 3             When the officer in charge would finally make his order on a

 4     person's promotion, that order would be final for us.  And it is through

 5     regular channels, through subordinate units, it was communicated to all

 6     the persons involved.  Everyone had to be made aware of it personally,

 7     and every person, therefore, had to change rank insignia on their

 8     respective uniforms.

 9             Since this also affected salaries, because salaries were

10     determined on the basis of rank and position group, I would take a

11     certified copy of that order -- or, rather, send it to the

12     30th Personnel Centre for their further procedure.

13        Q.   Do you know what happened afterwards within the

14     30th Personnel Centre up until the salary was ultimately affected, as you

15     had put it?  What happened with the decision?

16        A.   As far as I can remember, the 30th Personnel Centre, headed by

17     Gojko Mijic, had that order of ours typed up in the

18     30th Personnel Centre.  Then it would be sent to the accounting centre

19     for implementation.  In our order, we would write our exact establishment

20     name on the basis of our establishment book, and then Mijic, in addition

21     to that, added, further up, the General Staff, the 30th Personnel Centre;

22     and all the rest of the information remained as originally written up in

23     our document.

24        Q.   Did it ever happen that somebody was first promoted in the

25     30th Personnel Centre or the Army of Yugoslavia rather than in the

Page 11292

 1     Army of Republika Srpska, or was this course always followed, the one

 2     that you told us about just now?

 3        A.   As far as I know, this was the regular channel for verifying our

 4     ranks, as we called it in our very own jargon.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document 65 ter,

 6     Defence [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... 961D.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please move into

 9     private session.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

11                           [Private session]

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Page 11301

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 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Malcic, who assessed the performance of an officer?

 9        A.   There were rules of assessment of officers in the JNA which we

10     continued to apply in practice.  From the battalion commander upwards

11     were the officers who did those assessments.  There were regular

12     assessments and extraordinary assessments.

13        Q.   When were these regular assessments made?

14        A.   Officers were regularly assessed, as far as I remember, once in

15     four years.  As for extraordinary assessments, if, after a year following

16     an assessment, this officer assumed another duty, was transferred to

17     another unit, or went to attend training, and in other situations that I

18     cannot remember now.

19        Q.   What kind of elements are taken into account when assessing the

20     professional work of an officer?

21        A.   According to the rules, it was accurately determined what

22     elements should be included into the assessment, but at the moment I

23     cannot remember them.

24        Q.   Does this assessment have any impact on an officer's salary?

25        A.   The officer who receives the grade "excellent" or "exceptionally

Page 11302

 1     successful" after a certain period of time spent with a specific rank was

 2     entitled to be moved to a higher salary group.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move again into private

 4     session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

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10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   A few moments ago, you talked to us about assessments and who it

16     was that made assessments.  When you worked in the personnel department

17     of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, did you ever hear of

18     anyone from the Army of Yugoslavia interfering with assessments made for

19     any officer in the Army of Republika Srpska?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   In order for an officer from the Army of Republika Srpska to

22     return to the Army of Yugoslavia, was it necessary to receive approval or

23     consent from the officer in charge in the Army of Republika Srpska?

24        A.   Once the 30th Personnel Centre was established, it was

25     indispensable to have the consent of the officer in charge from the

Page 11310

 1     Army of Republika Srpska for an officer to return to the

 2     Army of Yugoslavia.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we'll have to go back

 4     into private session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

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 3   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.

17             Court adjourned.

18                           --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Malcic, yesterday you testified to the effect of your

23     becoming a member of the Army of Republika Srpska and how you arrived in

24     Han Pijesak.

25             When you arrived Han Pijesak, did you ask approval from anyone in

Page 11317

 1     the VJ to join the Army of Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Did you ever hear of any of your fellow officers on the

 4     Main Staff having asked for permission to become members of the

 5     Army of Republika Srpska from anyone in the VJ?

 6        A.   In May and June 1992, I had an occasion to socialise with a large

 7     number of officers, active-duty JNA officers, who remained in the

 8     Army of Republika Srpska.

 9             As far as I remember, none of them had requested any permission

10     from anyone.  It was sufficient for us to hear an announcement by the

11     Presidency of the SFRY, or the FRY - I don't know how it was called at

12     the time - on TV, stating that the officers who were born in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina should remain in the Army of Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   Later on, the officers who were sent pursuant to Article 271, do

15     you know whether they received permission from their superior officers in

16     the VJ to join the Army of Republika Srpska?

17        A.   I don't remember the exact date or the period when the JNA, in

18     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, changed its name into the

19     Yugoslav Army.  But I do know quite a few officers who were born in

20     Bosnia and Herzegovina and were serving in the garrisons in the territory

21     of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, i.e., Serbia and Montenegro.  Many

22     of them wished to join the Army of Republika Srpska from the very

23     beginning.  However, they didn't know how to do that, because they didn't

24     want to leave their units as deserters which would result in their

25     superior officers issuing a decision on the termination of their service.

Page 11318

 1     They, rather, sought approval from the officer in charge to join the

 2     Army of Republika Srpska.

 3             These officers, in 1992, up until the establishment of the

 4     30th Personnel Centre, were sent, pursuant to Article 271 of the

 5     Law on the Yugoslav Army.  When they reported to the officer in charge in

 6     the Army of Republika Srpska, they were immediately appointed to their

 7     establishment posts in the Army of Republika Srpska, corresponding to

 8     their ranks and their qualifications.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10        A.   Can I just add one more sentence?

11             Most often, they went to their birth places to be assigned to the

12     units that were being formed in those garrisons.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             Mr. Malcic, did you ever receive a military ID issued by the

15     Yugoslav Army?

16        A.   No.  I used the military ID of the Yugoslav People's Army in

17     which the Military Post of the Main Staff of the VRS was written, and at

18     the beginning that was the only document that I had testifying to my

19     membership in the Army of Republika Srpska.  Later on, I don't remember

20     exactly when that happened, I was issued an ID of the

21     Army of Republika Srpska, as was the case with many other of my fellow

22     officers.

23        Q.   Whose personal ID did you have at the time?

24        A.   I had an ID of Republika Srpska, a personal ID.

25        Q.   Mr. Malcic, did you at one point acquire the citizenship of the

Page 11319

 1     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?  And when was that?

 2        A.   I acquired the FRY citizenship when I retired and when my service

 3     was terminated.  That enabled me later to exercise certain monetary

 4     rights, pursuant to the laws in force at the time, which I hadn't been

 5     able to collect when I was an active serviceman.  And I even didn't know

 6     that I was entitled to such allowances and compensations until I retired.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask for a little bit of

 8     clarification.

 9             I don't understand what you mean, Mr. Malcic, when you say you

10     used the military ID of the Yugoslav People's Army in which the

11     Military Post of the Main Staff of the VRS was written.

12             I thought that the -- well, that's -- is that not what you said?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I said.  Poor

14     interpretation.  Poor interpretation.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Let's get it corrected.

16             What did you say?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Immediately in 1992 we did not

18     print military IDs of the Army of Republika Srpska because that was not

19     one of our priorities.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm going to ask you to go please straight to the

21     question.  Don't give me background information.

22             What did you say?  What military ID did you use, and what was

23     written on it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had a military ID of the

25     Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA.  And in that ID, we just wrote

Page 11320

 1     "Military Post 7527 Sarajevo," which is the Military Post of the

 2     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 3             In the Army of Republika Srpska, I used that as proof of the fact

 4     that I was an active-duty military officer.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When was Military Post 7527 Sarajevo written on

 6     this ID?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the establishment of the

 8     Main Staff was made.  Then every formation had its peacetime and war time

 9     Military Post.  On the basis of that establishment, I was assigned to the

10     military staff as assistant head of the personnel department in the

11     administration for personnel affairs.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In short, it was written when you joined the VRS;

13     is that what you are saying?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             You may proceed.

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Malcic, did anyone from the Army of Yugoslavia ask you to

20     appoint someone to a particular position in the Army of Republika Srpska?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Did anyone from the Army of Yugoslavia -- or, rather, do you know

23     whether anyone from the Army of Yugoslavia asked an officer to transfer

24     an officer within the Army of Republika Srpska from one post to another?

25        A.   No.  That was only for the officer in charge to decide, and no

Page 11321

 1     one could interfere with that, not any other officer in the

 2     Army of Republika Srpska, let alone outside the Army of Republika Srpska.

 3        Q.   Now I'm going to move on to my last set of questions, Mr. Malcic,

 4     and that will conclude my examination-in-chief.

 5             While you were in the Army of Republika Srpska, did you receive

 6     your salary all the time, every month, from the

 7     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you remember when the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia imposed

10     sanctions on Republika Srpska in 1994?  Do you remember whether that

11     affected your salary in any way?

12        A.   When sanctions were imposed against Republika Srpska towards the

13     end of the summer of 1995 - isn't that right? - it was 1994, rather.

14     Then salaries were no longer paid to active duty military personnel

15     either.

16        Q.   Do you remember how long that went on?

17        A.   That went on for five to six months, however.

18        Q.   So what did you and your family live on in that period?

19        A.   In that period, my family lived in Banja Luka.  As soon as I told

20     my wife that there was no more salary, she went to the Red Cross.  She

21     registered herself and our two daughters, stating that we no longer had a

22     permanent source of income.  Then my family was put on this list for

23     receiving supplies from the Red Cross, like all refugees who fled from

24     the territory of the Federation to Banja Luka.

25             From the Red Cross, they received supplies, food supplies.  Then

Page 11322

 1     soap and detergents and a bit of clothing.  And that's how they lived.

 2     They received that every month, and that is how they lived from month to

 3     month.  That is to say, my family lived like all other refugees in this

 4     state of war, and, therefore, they did not die of hunger.  As far as I

 5     know, no one starved at the time in Republika Srpska or in the Federal

 6     Republic of Yugoslavia.  There were some humanitarian organisations who

 7     made an effort to provide people with these supplies so that they could

 8     survive.

 9        Q.   Just a moment, please.

10             Do you know whether any officer of the Army of Republika Srpska,

11     in that period of time, when you did not receive salaries, leave the

12     Army of Republika Srpska?

13        A.   As far as I know, not a single officer left when salaries were no

14     longer being paid out.  They did not leave the Army of Republika Srpska.

15     That gave us even more moral strength to persevere in carrying out our

16     duties and to prove to the one who imposed sanctions on us that we do

17     have an alternative response and that we can survive.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Malcic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded my

20     examination-in-chief of this witness.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22             Mr. Saxon.

23             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, I note the time and that normally we

24     would have about 55 minutes more for this session.  I would ask

25     permission to adjourn until 2.15 tomorrow to start my cross-examination.

Page 11323

 1     There are several translations that the Prosecution is waiting for.  They

 2     are coming in as we speak.  The last one or two may not arrive until

 3     tomorrow morning, and they will possibly affect how I conduct this

 4     cross-examination.

 5             So I would -- I -- I very much believe, Your Honour, that if I

 6     start tomorrow at 2.15, I will also finish the cross-examination

 7     tomorrow, to leave Thursday for re-direct and any Judges' questions.

 8             So that would be my request, Your Honour, if that would be

 9     possible.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you put your hand on the big book?

11             MR. SAXON:  I do, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             Okay.  We'll then take an adjournment.

14             Unfortunately, Mr. Malcic, we are not in a position to begin with

15     your cross-examination.  I have got to remind you once again that you may

16     not discuss the case with anybody and especially not with your lawyers.

17     You will come back tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in the

18     same courtroom.  Okay?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Court adjourned until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00,

21     in Courtroom II.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.05 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of

25                           March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.