1 Tuesday, 13 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everyone in and around the
6 courtroom. Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
9 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar. Could we have
11 the appearances for the day start with the Prosecution, please.
12 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honour. Good morning, everyone
13 in the courtroom. Mark Harmon, Barney Thomas, Carmela Javier for the
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the Defence.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours and to all.
17 Boris Zorko, Chad
18 behalf of Mr. Perisic.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Guy-Smith.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. I believe we should probably
21 go back into private session based upon the situation that we were in
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 11446-11452 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the record, we are in
5 open session. May the witness please be called.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 WITNESS: BORIVOJE JOVANIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, sir.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning. I know you're seeing me for the
12 first time, but I presume that at the beginning of your testimony you
13 made a declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else
14 but the truth. I remind you that you are still bound by that
15 declaration. Thank you so much.
16 Mr. Thomas.
17 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Thomas:
19 Q. Now, General, good morning. My name is Barney Thomas. I'm a
20 lawyer for the Prosecution. I have the opportunity at this stage to ask
21 you some questions about your testimony yesterday. I ask you, please, to
22 listen carefully to my questions and answer only my question. If you
23 have any -- if my question is unclear or if there is anything you do not
24 understand, please let me know and we will deal with that as it arises.
25 Is that clear, sir?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Sir, I'd like to deal firstly with just a couple of
3 issues arising out of the budget preparation process. Firstly, after the
4 restructuring of the MOD and the SSNO, is it the position that under the
5 new system the only source of financing for the VJ was the federal
6 budget? In other words, 100 per cent from the federal budget?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. And you spoke yesterday about this first phase and the process
9 being the preparation of a plan by the VJ General Staff, a plan for --
10 which identified its needs and effectively contained its assessment of
11 the funds that it would require to meet those needs. Is it the position
12 that that exercise was within the domain of the General Staff of the VJ?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. There would be, nevertheless, some discussions between the MOD
15 and the General Staff of the VJ, but these would be more directed towards
16 what sort of funds would be available and ensuring that the VJ somehow
17 was able to prepare a plan that would be accepted in terms of the funding
18 that was available. Is that -- is that a fair summary of the purpose of
19 the discussions between the MOD and the VJ General Staff?
20 A. It is.
21 Q. You spoke yesterday about the -- the very high proportion of the
22 plan and ultimately the budget that was made up of the salary component
23 for VJ officers. Do I understand that in the plan prepared by the
24 VJ General Staff they included the salary component for VJ officers, and
25 they identified in the plan how much money would be required to pay VJ
2 A. That's right. However, the final calculation of the final sum
3 involved was done by the ministry. It was the General Staff that dealt
4 with it on the basis of the numbers involved. However, since salaries
5 contain all the contributions that I referred to yesterday, so all of
6 that was part of the budget, then the ministry dealt with that. The
7 General Staff made the calculations involved of the personnel numbers
8 involved. I don't know if I am being clear on this.
9 Q. Just so I am clear, the General Staff would identify in the plan
10 how many officers needed to be paid and presumably at what different pay
11 levels they would be?
12 A. That's right. However, the payment groups or levels were not
13 shown in the plan. The actual salary contained the group involved. So
14 in the plan you could not see what the structure of ranks was or - how
15 should I put this? - who held which post, and you couldn't see those
16 groups. What was said was such and such an amount was needed for
17 commissioned officers, such and such an amount for non-commissioned
18 officers, and so on and so forth. There is no specific reference to the
19 number of colonels or lieutenant-colonels and what salary groups they had
20 because that would be way too operative for that level of the budget.
21 Q. I see. So the VJ -- the General Staff identified the number of
22 officers by category and a total sum required to meet the salaries
23 obligations relating to all the officers and servicemen in the VJ; is
24 that right?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Included in the salary component of the VJ General Staff plan
2 would be funds sufficient to also pay the salaries of those whose status
3 was regulated by the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres, wouldn't they?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. And when the plan was incorporated into the defence plan and
6 submitted and ultimately adopted as part of the federal budget, the money
7 earmarked for VJ salaries would be paid to all VJ officers, including
8 those whose service was regulated through the 30th and 40th Personnel
9 Centres, wouldn't it?
10 A. That's correct. However, it wasn't paid through the accounting
11 centre of the General Staff of the army. It was paid through the
12 accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence.
13 Q. Nevertheless, it was credited against the budget or the funds
14 identified as the budget as being approved for the payment of VJ
15 salaries; correct?
16 A. Could you please clarify that.
17 Q. The MOD was able to disburse those funds to those officers
18 because the federal budget had approved the payment of those funds to VJ
19 officers, hadn't it?
20 A. That's right. Exactly.
21 Q. Okay. Was it known to you that the salary component of the VJ
22 plan included the sums being paid to officers whose service was regulated
23 by the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres? Did you know that?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Haven't you already said so -- asked this
25 question, sir? You've asked the witness whether:
1 "And when the plan was incorporated into the defence plan and
2 submitted and ultimately adopted as part of the federal budget, the money
3 earmarked for VJ salaries would be paid to all VJ officers, including
4 those whose service was regulated through the 30th and 40th Personnel
6 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. I'm asking him if he was specifically
7 aware at the time, but I appreciate it is implicit in his earlier answer.
8 I'll withdraw the question, Your Honour.
9 Q. Was the -- you mentioned yesterday that the federal budget was
10 advertised in the gazette. Was there any advertisement of the fact,
11 either in the gazette or elsewhere, that members or officers whose status
12 was regulated by the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres were being paid?
13 A. No. No, not for them and not for all other persons who were sent
14 from the VJ to work in other federal organs. That was not shown in the
15 Official Gazette, the number of officers who work in the ministry of
16 defence, and all of them are members who were sent to work there. Also,
17 the number of officers who worked in the military economy and other
18 federal organs, all of them were members of the army, but the army sent
19 them to work in those organs. That would be quite a burden on the
20 federal budget, though. It is a synthetic thing, the federal budget,
21 and --
22 Q. Just pause. Just pause. I'm sorry to interrupt you, sir. My
23 question was whether the fact that the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres'
24 members were being paid, was that something that was advertised at any
25 time, either in the gazette as part of the federal advertisement of the
1 federal budget --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. That question has been asked and answered.
4 Line 13, page 5, the answer is: "No, no, not for them ..."
5 MR. THOMAS: Well, sir, in my submission, when one reads the
6 balance of the answer that is recorded there, it is apparent that the
7 General isn't answering the question I put to him, which is why I want to
8 put the question again.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think what the General is saying in that part,
10 Mr. Thomas, is he says, "No, not for them," very specifically and then
11 gives you other categories of soldiers of the VJ who are sent on mission
12 to other organs of government just like the ones who are sent to the
13 30th and 40th Personnel Centre. And he says all these people are not
14 advertised as working -- as being paid even though they are in those
16 MR. THOMAS: I accept that, sir. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. THOMAS:
19 Q. Was the federal parliament or the Federal Assembly at the time
20 that it approved the defence budget aware that the salary component of
21 the VJ plan included payments to members of the 30th and 40th Personnel
23 A. There was a decision of the Presidency of the Federal Republic
25 the parliament was aware of that too.
1 Q. All right. Sir, you mentioned yesterday when you were talking
2 about the various components of salaries, that this was something that
3 was regulated by the federal government, and I just want to ask you a
4 question or two about that statement, please.
5 The various components were -- were regulated by laws or
6 regulations, weren't they?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Nevertheless, in the case of certain allowances, it would be a
9 decision of the General Staff of the VJ that activated the entitlement of
10 a particular officer or serviceman to that particular component of the
11 salary, wasn't it?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. So, for example, if we look at the contribution for service
14 performed under difficult and special conditions, we have a document that
15 I'd like you to look at, sir.
16 MR. THOMAS: And if we could have P741 on the screen,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Mr. Thomas, for this document or for any other
20 document, if the witness has any difficulty in looking at the screen, I
21 have them available in hard copy.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour, and I'm obliged to my
24 learned friend.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 MR. THOMAS:
2 Q. Now, General, you will see that this is decision of the
3 General staff of the Yugoslav Army. If we go to the last page in both
4 versions, you will see that it is signed by General Perisic. And if --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And if we go back to the first page -- if we go back to the first
7 page, you will see that it is a: "Decision on determining the tasks and
8 territory where service is performed under difficult (special)
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You will see, sir, in the first line of paragraph numbered 1 that
12 this relates to active-duty servicemen, servicemen under fixed-term
13 contract and civilians in the service of the VJ. And you will see that
14 under the definitions of what constitutes service under difficult or
15 special conditions in the next paragraph on that page, you will see at
16 the end of the second paragraph, under number 5, that this includes
17 territory where members of the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres are in
18 service. Do you see that, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you agree that the territory where the members of the 30th
21 Personnel Centres are in service was Bosnia?
22 A. I wouldn't be able to say that. This is most likely a general
23 type of a decision for all of such locations where military personnel is
24 appointed, and if a serviceman is being sent to the territory of Bosnia
25 and Herzegovina
1 be entitled to that compensation.
2 This is the first time I see this document, so I couldn't really
3 tell you more about it, but this document generally regulates this issue.
4 Q. All right, General. Let's take this a step at a time. Do you
5 agree that the 30th Personnel Centre was the organ responsible for
6 regulating the service of those officers who were serving in the VRS?
7 A. I suppose so. I wasn't involved with this matter. It wasn't
8 within my scope of responsibility, at least not within my service, but I
9 suppose that you're right. This organ is actually called a centre, but
10 it wasn't really a proper centre. This was just a group of people
11 working within the personnel centre, but it was outside of my scope of
13 Q. General, again, let's pause. You're not suggesting that this
14 small group of people working in the centre itself would be entitled to
15 compensation for service performed under difficult or special conditions?
16 A. This particular group of people, if you have in mind persons who
17 worked within the personnel centre on those matters, they did not work in
18 any difficult conditions. They worked in Belgrade within the building of
19 the General Staff. However -- rather, they worked within the personnel
20 administration. This order pertains to persons who were being sent to a
21 territory which meets these criteria and qualifies as locations where an
22 officer works under difficult conditions.
23 As for clerks working on personnel issues, they worked under the
24 same conditions as I did. They worked in offices.
25 Now, if you have in mind persons who were being sent by the
1 centre elsewhere, then, yes, you're right. But as for persons working on
2 personnel matters, they did not meet the criteria for work under
3 difficult conditions.
4 I hope I'm being clear.
5 Q. Perfectly, sir. Thank you. Once the decision has been issued,
6 in this instance by the Chief of the General Staff, the people listed in
7 that decision become entitled to this compensation, don't they?
8 A. [No interpretation].
9 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I didn't get a
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Neither did I. The witness said, "Tako je."
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said fine, yes.
13 MR. THOMAS:
14 Q. For that compensation to be paid by the accounting centre of the
15 MOD, the necessary information would have needed to have been sent by the
16 personnel administration of the VJ General Staff to the accounting centre
17 of the MOD; is that right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And that would be the case whenever, for example, somebody was
20 promoted or somebody became eligible for any other kind of allowance?
21 A. Correct. The personnel administration would issue appropriate
22 enactments. They would be sent to the accounting centre, and that would
23 regulate the status of that particular person when it comes to their
25 Q. Thank you, General. We can take that document off the screen and
1 move on to another topic briefly, which is the topic of war reserves.
2 I appreciate, sir, that this was not something that you were
3 directly involved with in your role at the MOD, but you provided some
4 testimony on this issue yesterday, and I'd like to discuss that with you
5 for a moment.
6 In any VJ plan, budget plan, there would be included a section
7 for the replenishment of war reserves, wouldn't there?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And once materiel, ammunition, weapons, any other material were
10 acquired or sent to the VJ, they formed part of its war reserves and
11 remained under the control of the General Staff of the VJ, didn't they?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. During -- well, up until the end of 1995, there was a steady
14 depletion of VJ war reserves, wasn't there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In fact, there was a serious depletion of war reserves, and the
17 VJ General Staff was always keenly interested in restoring combat
18 readiness by increasing its war reserves to a more appropriate level,
19 wasn't it?
20 A. That was natural. Let me just add that I know this to be so, but
21 I wasn't involved in these issues. It wasn't within my scope of
22 responsibilities. However, it is logical that war reserves had to be at
23 a certain level, and there are regulations providing for that depending
24 on the type of war reserves and materiel reserves, not only in our
25 country but in any other army and country in the world. There need to be
1 materiel and war reserves in various categories. They need to be placed
2 in certain locations, and again, depending on the type of the reserve,
3 there is also a time period provided during which they need to be
5 I know this as a soldier, but I did not deal with these
6 particular matters, except when there was a request to provide funds for
7 procuring these reserves. However, I was not interested in the type of
8 the reserves that were needed. I just needed to make sure that this
9 request fit in within the quotas and funds that could be allocated for
10 that purpose. I did not deal with it in any more detail. I dealt with
11 other issues in other fields. This particular matter fell within the
12 realm of the military economy field and it was under other organs.
13 In this particular case I can be of assistance to you only to the
14 extent that I need to know about these matters as a member of the Army of
16 this matter, but I did not personally deal with these issues.
17 Q. Well, as the person responsible for putting together the defence
18 budget, you would have been aware of the sums of money that the
19 VJ General Staff was seeking for the replenishment of war reserves?
20 A. I would have been aware of that.
21 Q. You would also have been aware that they were also never able to
22 get in the federal budget as much as they said they needed?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And you spoke, sir, yesterday of the Law on Property and the fact
25 that it meant that all movable property remained within the ownership of
1 the state. Does that -- sorry, go on.
2 A. Real property, according to the Law on Property, fell under the
3 jurisdiction of the federal government. As for movable property that was
4 procured for the needs of the army, that fell under the jurisdiction of
5 Ministry of Defence partially and partially under the General Staff of
6 the Army of Yugoslavia
7 Q. Well, under the Law on Property, there would have been no basis
8 for the Chief of the General Staff to appropriate VJ war reserves to the
9 VRS or the SVK, would there?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe that the question as posed lacks a
13 foundation, is outside of the competence of this witness's testimony.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
15 MR. THOMAS: I disagree with my learned friend's suggestion,
16 Your Honour. He led evidence yesterday from the General specifically on
17 Article 39 of the Law on Property to demonstrate that ownership of
18 movable assets in the VJ remained with the minister of defence, and
19 specifically that the VJ had no authority to sell, dispose, transfer, or
20 otherwise deal with immovable and movable property. I'm wishing to press
21 him on that answer, sir.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I was not here yesterday, but from what has
23 transpired this morning, I'm not quite sure whether you and the witness
24 are on the same page. You say now at page 21, line -- starting from
25 line 6:
1 "He led evidence yesterday from the General -- from the General
2 specifically on Article 39 of the Law on Property to demonstrate that
3 ownership of movable assets in the VJ remained with the minister of
5 Now, I thought I heard the witness saying, at page 20, starting
6 at line 17:
7 "Real property," by which I understood immovable property,
8 "according to the Law on Property, fell under the jurisdiction of the
9 federal government. As for movable property that was procured for the
10 needs of the army, that fell under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of
11 Defence partially and partially under the General Staff of the Army of
13 So where at page 21, line 10, you say the VJ had no authority to
14 sell or dispose, do remember that they had partial authority over the
16 MR. THOMAS: And that's what I'm seeking to explore with the --
17 with the witness, sir.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then the objection is overruled.
19 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. General, as I understand your evidence yesterday and the
21 Law on Property, the VJ was free to use its war reserves. It was free to
22 consume those war reserves which were consumable, such as ammunition, but
23 it was not free to dispose of or to transfer out of the jurisdiction
24 those parts of war reserves which were not consumable, and the example
25 you were given yesterday was of a tank.
1 Have I accurately summarised your position?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do I understand that a tank is described as
4 not consumable within the army? Within the VJ.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was given to the army for
6 their use.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. And what happens when its life
8 comes to an end? It cannot be used either because of damage or because
9 the engine has seized. It has just really come to the end of its life.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they could not repair it in our
11 repair plants and if the situation was such that it basically expired for
12 practical purposes and cannot be used anymore, then the minister of
13 defence would issue a decision on what to do with that tank. It could be
14 decommissioned. It could be recycled. It could be sell -- it could be
15 sold into scrap iron. It could be sold in parts.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me stop you there, sir. I'm not asking you
17 what becomes of it when its life comes to an end. I'm asking whether
18 during its life is it not a consumable? Precisely because its life does
19 come to an end, doesn't it become a consumable?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that would be a good reason,
21 because it has no practical purpose anymore. It cannot be used for its
22 original purpose. What purpose does a tank serve in the army? It serves
23 the purpose of training soldiers on how to use it, what to do with it --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You're obviously, perhaps, not able to
25 answer my question. I'm not asking about the purpose of a tank.
1 You may proceed, Mr. Thomas.
2 MR. THOMAS:
3 Q. General, there was no power under the Law on Property for the
4 Chief of General Staff of the VJ to give ammunition and weapons from the
5 VJ war reserves to the VRS or the SVK, was there?
6 A. No, but if there was a decision of the Supreme Defence Council on
7 that issue, then they would proceed in that manner.
8 MR. THOMAS: Could we have P1009 on the screen, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told it's under seal, sir.
10 MR. THOMAS: My apologies, Your Honour. It is. If we could
11 please move into private session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
13 [Private session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. May the curtain please be
16 brought down. Thank you.
17 Yes, Mr. Thomas.
18 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll just wait for P1009
19 on the screen, please.
20 Q. You will see that that is order of President Lilic --
21 President Lilic, General. Just take a moment to familiarise yourself
22 with what is on the screen in front of you.
23 My question is this: On the basis of this order, then, was the
24 Chief of the General Staff given the authority he needed to provide
25 weapons and military equipment to the VRS and the SVK?
1 A. I have to reiterate once again that all of these documents are
2 new to me. I did not work on these matters. I guess if it's written as
3 it is, that the Chief of the General Staff acted in accordance with it.
4 However, I do know that not a single piece of resource of the Army of
6 reserves and combat equipment that was in daily use, could not be taken
7 out of the Army of Yugoslavia without the previous decision of the
8 Supreme Defence Council.
9 However, let me repeat that I have trouble answering these
10 questions because they do not come under my competencies. I'm just
11 giving you what I know in general terms, that I learned of indirectly. I
12 did not deal with this in my work, and I'm not competent to answer these
13 questions in more detail. I don't think that my answers when it comes to
14 these matters are valid.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, I see you're on your feet. I'm not
16 quite sure why.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. I'm trying to get these microphones to
18 work. Apparently there's not a copy in B/C/S of the document that was
19 being discussed with the witness by Mr. Thomas. Once again, if -- if it
20 would be of some assistance, I'm more than happy to supply --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the screen shows -- the screen shows a B/C/S
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On the screen we can see a cover
24 letter by the National Council for Co-operation with The Hague Tribunal,
25 and the next page is the actual document in B/C/S.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. THOMAS: And I'm grateful to my learned friends, sir. I
3 hadn't observed that.
4 Q. General, please take the opportunity to read this document. This
5 is the document that I was intending that you read earlier. So please
6 forgive me. This was the document that should have been on the screen
7 for you, sir.
8 A. Let me say once again that I'm not able to comment on these
9 documents at all.
10 Q. All right. Thank you, General.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. Jovanic, would this document -- sorry.
12 Would this document, sir, confirm what you just told us at page 23,
13 line 17, where you said:
14 "No. But if there was a decision of the Supreme Defence Council
15 on that issue, then they would proceed in that manner."
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that that's how it is.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. General, dealing --
20 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry. We can take this document off the
21 screen, Your Honours, and move back into open session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session
23 after the document has been removed from the screen.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I guess we don't need to wait
2 for the page to run through before the blind is lifted.
3 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. General, I take it it was not part of your department's purpose
5 in the MOD to monitor the levels of VJ war reserves.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, did you hear the question?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.
8 MR. THOMAS:
9 Q. Can you tell us, sir, whose responsibility it was to monitor the
10 levels of VJ war reserves?
11 A. In the General Staff, the administrations that were responsible
12 based on the type of war reserves, and when it came to the Ministry, then
13 the organ responsible was the military economic sector.
14 Q. Do you know whether the MOD was aware that ammunitions and
15 weapons were being supplied by the VJ to the VRS and SVK? Was the MOD
16 aware of that?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: The MOD is a -- is an organ. It's an
19 institution, and the manner in which the question has been -- been asked
20 it would be impossible for the witness to answer whether or not the
21 entire Ministry of Defence was aware or not aware of something. If he's
22 asking whether a specific individual or individuals who were responsible
23 for the war economy had that information, that's a different question.
24 So I'd object on the question being vague and ambiguous.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
1 MR. THOMAS: I can be more precise, sir.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please be.
3 MR. THOMAS:
4 Q. Which persons or organs within the MOD would have been aware, to
5 your knowledge, that the VJ was supplying ammunitions and weapons to the
6 VRS and SVK?
7 A. I wouldn't want to --
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- discuss persons --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I apologise.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't want to discuss persons,
13 because persons changed over time. Now, are we talking about a specific
14 year, a specific period? In that case, I might remember who headed a
15 particular institution, but generally speaking, if we're talking about an
16 institution or a sector, it would be the military economic sector within
17 the --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can discuss -- if you don't want to discuss
19 persons, you can discuss offices, the office of the minister of defence,
20 the office of the deputy minister, the office of the General -- the Chief
21 of the General Staff of the VJ, for argument's sake, you know, even if
22 you don't give it a name. Which officials would have -- would have been
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The head of the military economic
25 sector and the heads of administrations within the military economic
1 sector depending on the type of resource involved, the type of asset, the
2 particular piece from the war reserves. That is my assessment.
3 My administration did not know about that and did not need to
4 know about that, but it is the military economic sector in the
5 Ministry of Defence that was supposed to know about that.
6 MR. THOMAS:
7 Q. General, did you know that the VJ was sending ammunitions and
8 weapons to the VRS and the SVK?
9 A. I specifically did not know about that. I may or may not assume
10 that that was the case, but now that I've seen these documents that
11 you've showed me, I mean, I hadn't seen them earlier, on the basis of
12 these documents I assume that that may have been the case. But, really,
13 I did not know about that specifically.
14 Q. Well, in the time that you headed up the finance and budget
15 department at the MOD and were responsible for coordinating the MOD and
16 VJ plans into a national budget, you told us that your department would
17 frequently engage in discussions with the General Staff of the VJ
18 specifically to discuss what the VJ was asking for and to tell them
19 whether that was realistic given the funds that were likely to be made
21 In the context of those discussions, you must have been aware
22 what was VJ was spending its resources on, wouldn't you?
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 Q. And you were faced each year with requests for the replenishment
25 of war materiel, war materiel which was declining at a very fast rate,
1 wasn't it?
2 A. That's right.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The transcript does not reflect the
5 answer in line 8 on page 29. The witness said: "That's right."
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, there was no audible answer
7 in the booth.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we get help? What was the answer, those
9 who -- can we get the answer from the witness, sir.
10 MR. THOMAS: If it helps, sir, I heard, "Tako je," which I now
11 know what that means.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would rather you didn't testify. Let the
13 witness repeat the answer.
14 MR. THOMAS: I'll put the question again, sir.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, before the witness repeats the
17 answer, apparently there seems to be some difficulty with the booth,
18 because we're hearing words that apparently the interpretation booth is
19 not hearing. I don't know if his speakers need to be -- microphones need
20 to be turned up a bit or there's some other way that we can accommodate
21 the booth, because I'm hearing words, I know the Bench has heard words, I
22 know Mr. Thomas has heard words which apparently the interpreter has not.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could somebody please check the witness's
24 microphones and try to bring them closer to him, please.
25 Okay. Can you repeat the question, Mr. Thomas.
1 MR. THOMAS: I can, sir.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: "In the context of those discussions you must have
3 been aware what was VJ -- what VJ was spending its resources on, wouldn't
5 MR. THOMAS:
6 Q. And, General, was your answer yes?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. And given that you were aware of the very fast rate at which VJ
9 war reserves were being depleted and given that the VJ was a peacetime
10 army, where -- where were the VJ reserves going?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, the manner in which the question is asked
13 calls for speculation on the part of the witness. I know that Mr. Thomas
14 has a answer in his own head, but the manner in which he asked the
15 question certainly calls for speculation on the part of this witness.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
17 MR. THOMAS: I can rephrase the question.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
19 MR. THOMAS:
20 Q. Where did you think the VJ reserves were going?
21 A. The reserves of the Army of Yugoslavia were used for manning
22 units and institutions of the Army of Yugoslavia, because units conduct
23 training on a daily basis. Also, every day energy resources are being
24 used and different types of materiel, depending on the type of planning
25 based on the training plan of the Army of Yugoslavia. There are training
1 programmes that require a lot more resources, others that require less.
2 So every day certain amounts of equipment are being sent from these war
4 Now, the reserves go up and down, and depending upon that, annual
5 financial plans envisage the replenishment of these war reserves. So
6 life and work in the Army of Yugoslavia, especially the process of
7 training, requires the daily use of material, starting with fuel, reserve
8 food supplies, because there are two different types of food. In regular
9 peacetime conditions it is one type of food, and in the field there is a
10 different type of food that is provided, usually from the reserves. Then
11 ammunition is used in target practice. And let me not go into all of
12 that because that is not really my line of work. However, as far as that
13 is concerned, and that is what the army exists for, to train and to be
14 ready, every year there is replenishment depending on the financial
15 resources that the country has.
16 As the country's budget went down, there were less and less
17 resources for providing more materiel to the army, so the reserves could
18 not always be replenished at prescribed levels.
19 Salaries and pensions that ensure the standard of living of the
20 army are a fixed category, and every year certain amounts had to be
21 allocated for that on the basis of the regulations governing salaries.
22 Now, everything that remained was then allocated according to priorities,
23 and there was less and less all the time, including war reserves, and
24 that is how the volume of the war reserves went down. Now, to what
25 extent, that depended on the needs and priorities of the army in terms of
1 war material reserves. That is how I see this question.
2 Q. General, there was insufficient money to cover the VJ plan,
3 wasn't there?
4 A. That's right. Yes.
5 Q. The VJ would always ask for more than it was possible to give?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. The VJ was concerned about its low war reserves and the effect
8 that this would have on combat readiness?
9 A. Correct. And it wasn't only because of materiel reserves. It
10 also had to do with the other needs of the military.
11 Q. The MOD, that is, your department of the MOD, would engage with
12 the General Staff of the VJ in discussions about where costs could be
13 saved, where resources could be allocated from one point of expenditure
14 to another, all with the aim of getting the budget passed.
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. During --
17 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was going to ask you if that would be a
19 convenient moment or do you want -- do you want to wrap up something?
20 MR. THOMAS: I'm nearly done, sir, with this question.
21 Q. During those discussions, are you saying that the VJ General
22 Staff never raised with your department the question or the issue of
23 where their war reserves were going?
24 A. They had no need to do that in view of my administration, the
25 administration for finance and budget. For that purpose, there was the
1 military economic sector in the Ministry of Defence.
2 Q. Thank you, sir.
3 MR. THOMAS: That would be an appropriate place to stop.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a break and come back at quarter to.
5 Court adjourned.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
9 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. General, just a few questions and then you and I are done. You
11 spoke yesterday, sir, of the special-purpose production industry and the
12 fact that this was subordinated to the MOD, specifically the department
13 for military economy.
14 I'd like you to look, please, at document P2427, if we can have
15 that on the screen.
16 MR. THOMAS: And I'm sorry, Your Honours, before that comes up on
17 the screen, that is under seal. If we could please move into private
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
20 P24 ...
21 MR. THOMAS: P2427, sir.
22 [Private session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 MR. THOMAS:
1 Q. Just take a moment, sir, to read that document.
2 A. I cannot. All of it is blurred. It's a very poor copy.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have a hard copy which is also blurred, but it
5 may be better. I'm more than happy to see if that's of any assistance.
6 If you could show that to Mr. Thomas so he could confirm that's the
8 MR. THOMAS:
9 Q. Have you had the chance to read that document now, sir?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You will see that it's from General Mladic on behalf of the VRS,
12 addressed to the Chief of General Staff of the VJ personally. Before I
13 ask you a question about the document, I wonder if you could confirm some
14 details for us. Do you know that a FAB
15 A. I cannot give any comments, because I really do not know about
16 this. I'm not familiar with such matters at all.
17 Q. Sir, I just want you to deal with my specific question one at a
18 time. Do you know what a FAB
19 A. Very well. I assume it's some kind of a vehicle. I really don't
20 know. I'm not an expert in that field, and I really cannot tell
21 different things apart. I never worked with this kind of thing. I'm an
22 economist by training.
23 Q. Okay. Can you confirm for us, however, that the Krusik factory
24 is a special-purpose production facility situated in -- or near Valjevo
25 in Serbia
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And does come within those special-purpose facilities which you
3 described yesterday as being subordinated to the MOD?
4 A. Yes. The military economic sector of the Ministry of Defence;
5 that's right.
6 Q. You will see that the document refers to the director of the
7 Krusik factory wanting approval from the Chief of the General Staff of
8 the VJ before the 40 items requested are to be supplied by Krusik to the
9 RS MOD. Do you see that?
10 A. I see that, but I think it was wrong of him to ask approval from
11 this person. He was supposed to ask the minister of defence for
13 Q. But nevertheless, what we have here, sir, is a situation, do we
14 not, where the approval of the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ is
15 being sought, don't we?
16 A. That is what this paper says, but I note that I really cannot
17 give my comments with regard to these documents. This is the first time
18 I see this. I never received any such documents. My administration
19 never received any such documents, and it is really not my line of work.
20 So please allow me not to give comments about this, because there are
21 other officers who would be in charge of that.
22 Q. Well, the difficulty, General, is that you have given an answer,
23 which is that this is incorrect. That should have been the approval of
24 the MOD that was sought. So I want to explore that for a moment.
25 Presumably the MOD, as the organ to which the special-purpose
1 factories were subordinated to, would have been aware of the proper
2 procedure; correct?
3 A. Well, I assume that he must have known about this document too.
4 The Chief of General Staff probably submitted this kind of document to
5 the minister of defence. This is my assumption because that would be the
6 right path. Now, how the situation actually evolved, I really do not
7 know. However, the special-purposes production industry could not do
8 anything without the approval of the minister of defence either. So it
9 is probably the path that this document took as well.
10 Q. All right. Well, let's look at another example.
11 MR. THOMAS: If we could have P2727 on the screen, please. Also
12 remaining in private session, Your Honours. And could we please have
13 page 2 in the B/C/S first of all; and in the English, I need document
14 with doc ID 0647-6775.
15 Q. Now, General, you will see here that this is a document from the
16 Ministry of Defence of the FRY, addressed to the office of the Chief of
17 the General Staff, and it is forwarding to the office of the Chief of the
18 General Staff a request from the Republika Srpska for the purchase of
19 Motorola radios for the needs of the Hercegovina Corps of the VRS. And
20 the Ministry of Defence is asking for the position of the Chief of the
21 General Staff on whether or not these items should be supplied by the MOD
22 to the VRS.
23 Do you know, sir, why that would be?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are these to be supplied by the MOD? Where do we
25 find that?
1 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. At the bottom of the -- sorry. If we can
2 go to -- the answer to that, sir, lies -- if we can go to the next
3 document, which is page 3 in the B/C/S, and document ID 0647-6775 --
4 sorry, 6776. It might be the next page of the document that's on the
5 screen in English.
6 Q. And, General, this is the attached request, and you will see that
7 it is from VRS to the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
8 Ministry of Defence, request for the purchase of equipment.
9 A. I see the document, but I cannot give any comments because I
10 really don't know about that. That was probably the right course to take
11 to resolve the matter, but I really had nothing to do with it -- or,
12 rather, the administration that I headed had nothing to do with it.
13 Q. Well, if we look at the first page of the B/C/S and English
14 doc ID 0647-6774, please.
15 Now, if you look at this document, sir, you will see that it is
16 the response from the General Staff to the Ministry of Defence giving its
17 consent to the purchase by the VRS of this equipment from the MOD.
18 Notwithstanding --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question still stands. Where do we see that it
20 is supplied by the MOD?
21 MR. THOMAS: The request, sir, was made -- I'm sorry,
22 Your Honour. The request -- the original request from the RS was
23 directed to the MOD of the FRY.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but the request is for -- for the VRS to
25 purchase, not purchase from the MOD. They're saying to purchase.
1 They're asking for permission to purchase.
2 MR. THOMAS: They are, but the request is to the MOD.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. Fair enough.
4 MR. THOMAS: Okay.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The reason I say this is because you said --
6 earlier you talked about these Motorola things being supplied by the MOD.
7 MR. THOMAS:
8 Q. If we look, sir, at -- General, if we look at the document that's
9 on the screen at the moment, do you agree with me that the consent
10 appears to be given to the Ministry of Defence to supply to the VRS the
11 requested equipment as opposed to the VJ supplying the requested
13 A. That's what it says here.
14 Q. For the -- all right.
15 A. The Army of Yugoslavia was not competent to procure this. This
16 was normally procured by the minister of defence.
17 Q. Now, from whose budget would that procurement have been made?
18 A. In this particular case I wouldn't be able to say. This is the
19 first time I see this document. However, if the minister took the
20 decision for something to be purchased, then that must have been included
21 somewhere as an item in the plan, but I couldn't comment on this document
22 beyond this. If it was the Ministry of Defence that procured this, then
23 the only funding source for this was the plan. So there could not have
24 been any other funding, no other ministry could have purchased this for
25 them. But to repeat once again, I am not competent to comment on such
1 documents because they were outside of my purview. I did not deal with
2 such issues.
3 Q. The --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas --
5 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- sorry. I'm sorry to do this, but I just want
7 to make sure I'm with you. You say at page 38, line 16:
8 "Do you agree with me that the consent appears to be given to
9 the Ministry of Defence to supply to the VRS the requested equipment as
10 opposed to the VJ supplying the requested equipment?"
11 Could you please, by looking at this document, tell me where that
12 position comes from, where this comes from? I may be misreading this
14 MR. THOMAS: Well, sir, but perhaps we should ask the witness
15 that. He --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's your question. I'm asking you about the
17 question you posed to the witness.
18 MR. THOMAS: No problem. The request comes in from the VRS to
19 the MOD. It is addressed to the MOD. We want to purchase Motorolas.
20 The MOD sends it to the General Staff saying, What's your position on
21 this request? The VJ writes back to the MOD saying, Yes, we can agree
22 that they can purchase it.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, where from that do you get it that the MOD is
24 to supply the VRS?
25 MR. THOMAS: Well, that's why I asked the witness that this is
1 what the import of these documents is. The request is being made to the
2 MOD. The MOD hasn't instructed or passed on the request to the VJ. It
3 has simply asked for the VJ's position --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
5 MR. THOMAS: -- as to whether or not the sale could be made.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. But my question to you is: Where do we get
7 it from this document that the Ministry of Defence is to supply the VRS
8 with the requested equipment, because I see here granting of permission
9 to purchase, from whatever source.
10 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Well, that's an interpretation, sir.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not an interpretation.
12 "We hereby inform you that the General Staff of the Yugoslav
13 Army agreed that the Army of the Republika Srpska purchase for the needs
14 of the Hercegovina Corps mobile and stable RTIU type Motorola in
15 accordance with the specifications delivered by the bureau of the
16 Republika Srpska."
17 They agreed that they purchase. I don't see where the supplier
18 is mentioned.
19 MR. THOMAS: I agree sir. I agree, sir. But the witness agreed
20 that this was a purchase from the MOD.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but this is my problem with you and the
22 General, that you are putting interpretations to this document that is
23 not apparent from the document.
24 MR. THOMAS: But that's the interpretation the General agrees
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, you put it to him --
2 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I did.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You -- you -- yeah.
4 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I did. That's my interpretation of the
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
7 MR. THOMAS: I put it to him and he agreed with that
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
10 MR. THOMAS: So I appreciate Your Honour's position and that's
11 why I --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, yeah. My position is with the paper, with
13 the document before us. Okay.
14 MR. THOMAS: Okay.
15 Q. Now, General, what I want to ask you is this: The federal -- the
16 national defence budget provided for the procurement of military
17 material, for example, communication, Motorola equipment. Not
18 specifically, but it provided for the VJ to be able to procure military
19 equipment, didn't it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The MOD part of the plan, as opposed to the VJ part of the plan,
22 did not provide for the procurement of military equipment, because the
23 MOD did not itself maintain war reserves, did it?
24 A. I didn't understand this.
25 Q. All right. For this purchase to have been made by the RS, was
1 this something that would have happened outside of the national defence
3 A. I don't know that.
4 Q. What part of the national defence budget provided for the
5 procurement of material for the VRS?
6 A. Based on the content of the budget, not a single one, because the
7 budget planned for the needs of the Army of Yugoslavia, and there were no
8 provisions made for any structures outside of the Army of Yugoslavia.
9 Q. So how is it that procurement can be made for the VRS?
10 A. In this particular case I really don't know. This is the first
11 time I see this document, and I'm really not aware of such procurements.
12 These procurements did not go via my administration. They went via
13 military economic sector.
14 Perhaps you need to clarify this with other witnesses or by using
15 some other channels, but I do not wish to make a mistake. This is not my
16 field of work, and I do -- I would rather not go into any matters that
17 were outside of my line of work.
18 All of these documents that pertain to requests for materiel and
19 for procurement have nothing to do with my administration. I would
20 kindly ask that such questions not be put to me.
21 Q. All right, General. Thank you.
22 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. That concludes my
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
25 Any re-examination?
1 Re-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
2 Q. I'd like to see if we can potentially obtain some clarification
3 with regard to the matter that you were just discussing with Mr. Thomas.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe we were in private session. We can go
5 into open session because I'm not going to be referring to the document
6 in specific.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. May the Chamber --
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I do, I'll ask.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH:
14 Q. If an -- if an independent state or party wished to purchase
15 material from the military industry that existed in Serbia, did you have
16 to be informed of that fact?
17 A. Not my administration specifically.
18 Q. In order for --
19 A. Not my administration specifically.
20 Q. In order for the military industry to engage in an economic
21 transaction, meaning the sale of goods, to your knowledge, did some
22 department in the military -- in the Ministry of Defence have to be
24 A. Yes, the military economic sector. When it came to an export of
25 a piece of equipment manufactured by military industry and sold overseas,
1 I suppose that the federal government had to be made aware of this as
2 well. But within the ministry, it was the military economic sector.
3 Q. Thank you. I wish to move on now to two or three other brief
4 matters. The first one being, prior to the break-up of the former
6 were stable and existed throughout the territory of the former
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. During the break-up of the former Yugoslavia, if you know, and if
10 you don't, please tell us, those reserves were diminished in part by
11 virtue of the fact that they were seized by the Croatian government or
12 Croatian forces --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
14 MR. THOMAS: Objection, leading, sir.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. As I told Mr. Thomas yesterday, I'm
17 not going to fight about leading questions.
18 Q. Do you know --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please don't lead.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH:
21 Q. Do you know what parties, if any, were responsible for the
22 depletion of the war reserves that existed in the former Yugoslavia
23 A. I did not understand your question.
24 Q. Sure. Let me put it to you in another way. During the break-up
25 of the former Yugoslavia
1 throughout the territory. Is that a fair statement?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Those war reserves which had previously been for the benefit of
4 the entire country had now been, if I can put it in terms, had now
5 been --
6 MR. THOMAS: Objection, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
8 MR. THOMAS: Objection, leading.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Now I think not.
10 Q. Had now been effected, is the question --
11 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Your Honour.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe --
13 MR. THOMAS: I've made an objection.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've got to wait for a ruling.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do apologise.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Even if you --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sorry. You're right. You're absolutely right.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not able to rule on this. Maybe my colleagues
19 might help me, simply because the question is not complete.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: "Those war reserves which had previously been for
22 the benefit of the entire country had now been, if I can put it in terms,
23 had now been --"
24 MR. GUY-SMITH:
25 Q. Effected by virtue of the break-up of the former Yugoslavia; is
1 that a correct statement?
2 MR. THOMAS: That's a leading question.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say "effected" or "affected"?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Effected.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That's leading, sir.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH:
7 Q. After the break-up of the former Yugoslavia or during the
8 break-up of the former Yugoslavia
9 regard to the war reserves that had existed in the former Yugoslavia as
10 an entire region? If you know.
11 A. I don't know specifically, but I suppose that as units pulled
12 out, whatever war reserves from depots they could take they took with
13 them, and whatever they couldn't take remained in the territory where
14 they were. However, I was not involved in these matters, so I wouldn't
15 know in greater detail.
16 Q. Thank you. Moving to another subject. With regard to the
17 Supreme Defence Council, which you have mentioned, do you know who
18 participated in those sessions? And by "who," I mean which individuals
19 and from what departments they came.
20 A. The composition of the Supreme Defence Council was as follows:
21 President of the country, of the state; presidents of the republics. So
22 those were the members of the Supreme Defence Council. However, as far
23 as I know, the sessions of the Supreme Defence Council were attended also
24 by the federal Prime Minister and occasionally, as needed, federal
25 finance minister if financial issues were discussed, budget and so on.
1 Sessions were also attended by the federal minister of defence and Chief
2 of the General Staff. They were not members of the Supreme Defence
3 Council, but when certain issues were discussed they attended.
4 I suppose that Supreme Defence Council also invited some other
5 persons who were in high positions and who could assist with certain
6 matters that were on the agenda.
7 That's my reply.
8 Q. Thank you. And finally, you were asked the following question by
9 Mr. Thomas, and you gave the following response, and I'll ask a question
10 after I give you this. You were asked:
11 "You would have also been aware that they were also never able to
12 get into the federal budget as much as they said they needed."
13 And your answer was:
14 "That's correct."
15 And my question to you is: In terms of planning a federal
16 budget, has anybody ever received as much as they said they needed?
17 A. Nobody received as much as they had asked for. Everybody always
18 asked for more, and they get what they get.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. I have no further questions.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Jovanic. That brings us to the
21 conclusion of your testimony. Thank you very much for taking the time to
22 come and testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused. You may stand
23 down, and please travel well back home.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: In terms of the application that was made this
2 morning, are we hearing one witness or is this the end of it? One more
3 witness or this is the end of it?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's the end of it for today, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: For the day, until the 3rd of May.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is correct, Your Honour. And we will keep
7 the Chamber informed as to the progress. In the event that anything
8 speeds up, we'll let the Chamber know that too.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Well, the matter stands adjourned until the
10 3rd of May. I may not have my diary with me so to a court to be
11 determined and a time to be determined.
12 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, before we adjourn may I just raise one
13 matter, a brief matter, and that is that I would like to regulate the
14 status of one exhibit. It is P2518. On the 12th of May, Your Honour
15 asked that that exhibit be MFI
16 CLSS, and that English --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 12th of May, 2009.
18 MR. HARMON: 12th of May, 2010, and it's -- I can refer Your
19 Honour to the transcript --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That date has not come yet.
21 MR. HARMON: 2009, I'm sorry, Your Honour. It's -- no, I'm
22 informed it was 2010. 12th of March, 2010, I've made a mistake. Yes.
23 And the transcript reference is page 11005 to 11006. Your Honour asked
24 that that document be MFI
25 translation from CLSS. That translation has been obtained. We would ask
1 permission that that be now uploaded into e-court and that the MFI
2 designation on that exhibit be removed.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's correct, and we concur.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 Mr. Registrar also concurs, so be it done. Okay. Court
6 adjourned until the 3rd of May.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.23 a.m.
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day
9 of May, 2010