Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11445

 1                           Tuesday, 13 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

 9     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.  Could we have

11     the appearances for the day start with the Prosecution, please.

12             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Good morning, everyone

13     in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Barney Thomas, Carmela Javier for the

14     Prosecution.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And for the Defence.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning, Your Honours and to all.

17     Boris Zorko, Chad Mair, Tina Drolec, Novak Lukic, and Gregor Guy-Smith on

18     behalf of Mr. Perisic.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Guy-Smith.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, Your Honour.  I believe we should probably

21     go back into private session based upon the situation that we were in

22     yesterday.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 11446











11 Pages 11446-11452 redacted. Private session.















Page 11453

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And for the record, we are in

 5     open session.  May the witness please be called.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7                           WITNESS:  BORIVOJE JOVANIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, sir.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning.  I know you're seeing me for the

12     first time, but I presume that at the beginning of your testimony you

13     made a declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else

14     but the truth.  I remind you that you are still bound by that

15     declaration.  Thank you so much.

16             Mr. Thomas.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thomas:

19        Q.   Now, General, good morning.  My name is Barney Thomas.  I'm a

20     lawyer for the Prosecution.  I have the opportunity at this stage to ask

21     you some questions about your testimony yesterday.  I ask you, please, to

22     listen carefully to my questions and answer only my question.  If you

23     have any -- if my question is unclear or if there is anything you do not

24     understand, please let me know and we will deal with that as it arises.

25             Is that clear, sir?

Page 11454

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   All right.  Sir, I'd like to deal firstly with just a couple of

 3     issues arising out of the budget preparation process.  Firstly, after the

 4     restructuring of the MOD and the SSNO, is it the position that under the

 5     new system the only source of financing for the VJ was the federal

 6     budget?  In other words, 100 per cent from the federal budget?

 7        A.   That's right.

 8        Q.   And you spoke yesterday about this first phase and the process

 9     being the preparation of a plan by the VJ General Staff, a plan for --

10     which identified its needs and effectively contained its assessment of

11     the funds that it would require to meet those needs.  Is it the position

12     that that exercise was within the domain of the General Staff of the VJ?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   There would be, nevertheless, some discussions between the MOD

15     and the General Staff of the VJ, but these would be more directed towards

16     what sort of funds would be available and ensuring that the VJ somehow

17     was able to prepare a plan that would be accepted in terms of the funding

18     that was available.  Is that -- is that a fair summary of the purpose of

19     the discussions between the MOD and the VJ General Staff?

20        A.   It is.

21        Q.   You spoke yesterday about the -- the very high proportion of the

22     plan and ultimately the budget that was made up of the salary component

23     for VJ officers.  Do I understand that in the plan prepared by the

24     VJ General Staff they included the salary component for VJ officers, and

25     they identified in the plan how much money would be required to pay VJ

Page 11455

 1     salaries?

 2        A.   That's right.  However, the final calculation of the final sum

 3     involved was done by the ministry.  It was the General Staff that dealt

 4     with it on the basis of the numbers involved.  However, since salaries

 5     contain all the contributions that I referred to yesterday, so all of

 6     that was part of the budget, then the ministry dealt with that.  The

 7     General Staff made the calculations involved of the personnel numbers

 8     involved.  I don't know if I am being clear on this.

 9        Q.   Just so I am clear, the General Staff would identify in the plan

10     how many officers needed to be paid and presumably at what different pay

11     levels they would be?

12        A.   That's right.  However, the payment groups or levels were not

13     shown in the plan.  The actual salary contained the group involved.  So

14     in the plan you could not see what the structure of ranks was or - how

15     should I put this? - who held which post, and you couldn't see those

16     groups.  What was said was such and such an amount was needed for

17     commissioned officers, such and such an amount for non-commissioned

18     officers, and so on and so forth.  There is no specific reference to the

19     number of colonels or lieutenant-colonels and what salary groups they had

20     because that would be way too operative for that level of the budget.

21        Q.   I see.  So the VJ -- the General Staff identified the number of

22     officers by category and a total sum required to meet the salaries

23     obligations relating to all the officers and servicemen in the VJ; is

24     that right?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 11456

 1        Q.   Included in the salary component of the VJ General Staff plan

 2     would be funds sufficient to also pay the salaries of those whose status

 3     was regulated by the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres, wouldn't they?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   And when the plan was incorporated into the defence plan and

 6     submitted and ultimately adopted as part of the federal budget, the money

 7     earmarked for VJ salaries would be paid to all VJ officers, including

 8     those whose service was regulated through the 30th and 40th Personnel

 9     Centres, wouldn't it?

10        A.   That's correct.  However, it wasn't paid through the accounting

11     centre of the General Staff of the army.  It was paid through the

12     accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence.

13        Q.   Nevertheless, it was credited against the budget or the funds

14     identified as the budget as being approved for the payment of VJ

15     salaries; correct?

16        A.   Could you please clarify that.

17        Q.   The MOD was able to disburse those funds to those officers

18     because the federal budget had approved the payment of those funds to VJ

19     officers, hadn't it?

20        A.   That's right.  Exactly.

21        Q.   Okay.  Was it known to you that the salary component of the VJ

22     plan included the sums being paid to officers whose service was regulated

23     by the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres?  Did you know that?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Haven't you already said so -- asked this

25     question, sir?  You've asked the witness whether:

Page 11457

 1             "And when the plan was incorporated into the defence plan and

 2     submitted and ultimately adopted as part of the federal budget, the money

 3     earmarked for VJ salaries would be paid to all VJ officers, including

 4     those whose service was regulated through the 30th and 40th Personnel

 5     Centre."

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.  I'm asking him if he was specifically

 7     aware at the time, but I appreciate it is implicit in his earlier answer.

 8     I'll withdraw the question, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Was the -- you mentioned yesterday that the federal budget was

10     advertised in the gazette.  Was there any advertisement of the fact,

11     either in the gazette or elsewhere, that members or officers whose status

12     was regulated by the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres were being paid?

13        A.   No.  No, not for them and not for all other persons who were sent

14     from the VJ to work in other federal organs.  That was not shown in the

15     Official Gazette, the number of officers who work in the ministry of

16     defence, and all of them are members who were sent to work there.  Also,

17     the number of officers who worked in the military economy and other

18     federal organs, all of them were members of the army, but the army sent

19     them to work in those organs.  That would be quite a burden on the

20     federal budget, though.  It is a synthetic thing, the federal budget,

21     and --

22        Q.   Just pause.  Just pause.  I'm sorry to interrupt you, sir.  My

23     question was whether the fact that the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres'

24     members were being paid, was that something that was advertised at any

25     time, either in the gazette as part of the federal advertisement of the

Page 11458

 1     federal budget --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.  That question has been asked and answered.

 4     Line 13, page 5, the answer is:  "No, no, not for them ..."

 5             MR. THOMAS:  Well, sir, in my submission, when one reads the

 6     balance of the answer that is recorded there, it is apparent that the

 7     General isn't answering the question I put to him, which is why I want to

 8     put the question again.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think what the General is saying in that part,

10     Mr. Thomas, is he says, "No, not for them," very specifically and then

11     gives you other categories of soldiers of the VJ who are sent on mission

12     to other organs of government just like the ones who are sent to the

13     30th and 40th Personnel Centre.  And he says all these people are not

14     advertised as working -- as being paid even though they are in those

15     missions.

16             MR. THOMAS:  I accept that, sir.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. THOMAS:

19        Q.   Was the federal parliament or the Federal Assembly at the time

20     that it approved the defence budget aware that the salary component of

21     the VJ plan included payments to members of the 30th and 40th Personnel

22     Centres?

23        A.   There was a decision of the Presidency of the Federal Republic of

24     Yugoslavia in relation to such a system of payments, and I assume that

25     the parliament was aware of that too.

Page 11459

 1        Q.   All right.  Sir, you mentioned yesterday when you were talking

 2     about the various components of salaries, that this was something that

 3     was regulated by the federal government, and I just want to ask you a

 4     question or two about that statement, please.

 5             The various components were -- were regulated by laws or

 6     regulations, weren't they?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   Nevertheless, in the case of certain allowances, it would be a

 9     decision of the General Staff of the VJ that activated the entitlement of

10     a particular officer or serviceman to that particular component of the

11     salary, wasn't it?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   So, for example, if we look at the contribution for service

14     performed under difficult and special conditions, we have a document that

15     I'd like you to look at, sir.

16             MR. THOMAS:  And if we could have P741 on the screen,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Mr. Thomas, for this document or for any other

20     document, if the witness has any difficulty in looking at the screen, I

21     have them available in hard copy.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour, and I'm obliged to my

24     learned friend.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 11460

 1             MR. THOMAS:

 2        Q.   Now, General, you will see that this is decision of the

 3     General staff of the Yugoslav Army.  If we go to the last page in both

 4     versions, you will see that it is signed by General Perisic.  And if --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And if we go back to the first page -- if we go back to the first

 7     page, you will see that it is a:  "Decision on determining the tasks and

 8     territory where service is performed under difficult (special)

 9     conditions."

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You will see, sir, in the first line of paragraph numbered 1 that

12     this relates to active-duty servicemen, servicemen under fixed-term

13     contract and civilians in the service of the VJ.  And you will see that

14     under the definitions of what constitutes service under difficult or

15     special conditions in the next paragraph on that page, you will see at

16     the end of the second paragraph, under number 5, that this includes

17     territory where members of the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres are in

18     service.  Do you see that, sir?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you agree that the territory where the members of the 30th

21     Personnel Centres are in service was Bosnia?

22        A.   I wouldn't be able to say that.  This is most likely a general

23     type of a decision for all of such locations where military personnel is

24     appointed, and if a serviceman is being sent to the territory of Bosnia

25     and Herzegovina and he meets all these criteria, then such a person would

Page 11461

 1     be entitled to that compensation.

 2             This is the first time I see this document, so I couldn't really

 3     tell you more about it, but this document generally regulates this issue.

 4        Q.   All right, General.  Let's take this a step at a time.  Do you

 5     agree that the 30th Personnel Centre was the organ responsible for

 6     regulating the service of those officers who were serving in the VRS?

 7        A.   I suppose so.  I wasn't involved with this matter.  It wasn't

 8     within my scope of responsibility, at least not within my service, but I

 9     suppose that you're right.  This organ is actually called a centre, but

10     it wasn't really a proper centre.  This was just a group of people

11     working within the personnel centre, but it was outside of my scope of

12     responsibilities.

13        Q.   General, again, let's pause.  You're not suggesting that this

14     small group of people working in the centre itself would be entitled to

15     compensation for service performed under difficult or special conditions?

16        A.   This particular group of people, if you have in mind persons who

17     worked within the personnel centre on those matters, they did not work in

18     any difficult conditions.  They worked in Belgrade within the building of

19     the General Staff.  However -- rather, they worked within the personnel

20     administration.  This order pertains to persons who were being sent to a

21     territory which meets these criteria and qualifies as locations where an

22     officer works under difficult conditions.

23             As for clerks working on personnel issues, they worked under the

24     same conditions as I did.  They worked in offices.

25             Now, if you have in mind persons who were being sent by the

Page 11462

 1     centre elsewhere, then, yes, you're right.  But as for persons working on

 2     personnel matters, they did not meet the criteria for work under

 3     difficult conditions.

 4             I hope I'm being clear.

 5        Q.   Perfectly, sir.  Thank you.  Once the decision has been issued,

 6     in this instance by the Chief of the General Staff, the people listed in

 7     that decision become entitled to this compensation, don't they?

 8        A.   [No interpretation].

 9             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I didn't get a

10     translation.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Neither did I.  The witness said, "Tako je."

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said fine, yes.

13             MR. THOMAS:

14        Q.   For that compensation to be paid by the accounting centre of the

15     MOD, the necessary information would have needed to have been sent by the

16     personnel administration of the VJ General Staff to the accounting centre

17     of the MOD; is that right?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And that would be the case whenever, for example, somebody was

20     promoted or somebody became eligible for any other kind of allowance?

21        A.   Correct.  The personnel administration would issue appropriate

22     enactments.  They would be sent to the accounting centre, and that would

23     regulate the status of that particular person when it comes to their

24     salary.

25        Q.   Thank you, General.  We can take that document off the screen and

Page 11463

 1     move on to another topic briefly, which is the topic of war reserves.

 2             I appreciate, sir, that this was not something that you were

 3     directly involved with in your role at the MOD, but you provided some

 4     testimony on this issue yesterday, and I'd like to discuss that with you

 5     for a moment.

 6             In any VJ plan, budget plan, there would be included a section

 7     for the replenishment of war reserves, wouldn't there?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   And once materiel, ammunition, weapons, any other material were

10     acquired or sent to the VJ, they formed part of its war reserves and

11     remained under the control of the General Staff of the VJ, didn't they?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   During -- well, up until the end of 1995, there was a steady

14     depletion of VJ war reserves, wasn't there?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   In fact, there was a serious depletion of war reserves, and the

17     VJ General Staff was always keenly interested in restoring combat

18     readiness by increasing its war reserves to a more appropriate level,

19     wasn't it?

20        A.   That was natural.  Let me just add that I know this to be so, but

21     I wasn't involved in these issues.  It wasn't within my scope of

22     responsibilities.  However, it is logical that war reserves had to be at

23     a certain level, and there are regulations providing for that depending

24     on the type of war reserves and materiel reserves, not only in our

25     country but in any other army and country in the world.  There need to be

Page 11464

 1     materiel and war reserves in various categories.  They need to be placed

 2     in certain locations, and again, depending on the type of the reserve,

 3     there is also a time period provided during which they need to be

 4     ensured.

 5             I know this as a soldier, but I did not deal with these

 6     particular matters, except when there was a request to provide funds for

 7     procuring these reserves.  However, I was not interested in the type of

 8     the reserves that were needed.  I just needed to make sure that this

 9     request fit in within the quotas and funds that could be allocated for

10     that purpose.  I did not deal with it in any more detail.  I dealt with

11     other issues in other fields.  This particular matter fell within the

12     realm of the military economy field and it was under other organs.

13             In this particular case I can be of assistance to you only to the

14     extent that I need to know about these matters as a member of the Army of

15     Yugoslavia, what I need to know when it comes to the financial aspects of

16     this matter, but I did not personally deal with these issues.

17        Q.   Well, as the person responsible for putting together the defence

18     budget, you would have been aware of the sums of money that the

19     VJ General Staff was seeking for the replenishment of war reserves?

20        A.   I would have been aware of that.

21        Q.   You would also have been aware that they were also never able to

22     get in the federal budget as much as they said they needed?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   And you spoke, sir, yesterday of the Law on Property and the fact

25     that it meant that all movable property remained within the ownership of

Page 11465

 1     the state.  Does that -- sorry, go on.

 2        A.   Real property, according to the Law on Property, fell under the

 3     jurisdiction of the federal government.  As for movable property that was

 4     procured for the needs of the army, that fell under the jurisdiction of

 5     Ministry of Defence partially and partially under the General Staff of

 6     the Army of Yugoslavia.

 7        Q.   Well, under the Law on Property, there would have been no basis

 8     for the Chief of the General Staff to appropriate VJ war reserves to the

 9     VRS or the SVK, would there?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe that the question as posed lacks a

13     foundation, is outside of the competence of this witness's testimony.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

15             MR. THOMAS:  I disagree with my learned friend's suggestion,

16     Your Honour.  He led evidence yesterday from the General specifically on

17     Article 39 of the Law on Property to demonstrate that ownership of

18     movable assets in the VJ remained with the minister of defence, and

19     specifically that the VJ had no authority to sell, dispose, transfer, or

20     otherwise deal with immovable and movable property.  I'm wishing to press

21     him on that answer, sir.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I was not here yesterday, but from what has

23     transpired this morning, I'm not quite sure whether you and the witness

24     are on the same page.  You say now at page 21, line -- starting from

25     line 6:

Page 11466

 1             "He led evidence yesterday from the General -- from the General

 2     specifically on Article 39 of the Law on Property to demonstrate that

 3     ownership of movable assets in the VJ remained with the minister of

 4     defence."

 5             Now, I thought I heard the witness saying, at page 20, starting

 6     at line 17:

 7             "Real property," by which I understood immovable property,

 8     "according to the Law on Property, fell under the jurisdiction of the

 9     federal government.  As for movable property that was procured for the

10     needs of the army, that fell under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of

11     Defence partially and partially under the General Staff of the Army of

12     Yugoslavia."

13             So where at page 21, line 10, you say the VJ had no authority to

14     sell or dispose, do remember that they had partial authority over the

15     property.

16             MR. THOMAS:  And that's what I'm seeking to explore with the --

17     with the witness, sir.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then the objection is overruled.

19             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   General, as I understand your evidence yesterday and the

21     Law on Property, the VJ was free to use its war reserves.  It was free to

22     consume those war reserves which were consumable, such as ammunition, but

23     it was not free to dispose of or to transfer out of the jurisdiction

24     those parts of war reserves which were not consumable, and the example

25     you were given yesterday was of a tank.

Page 11467

 1             Have I accurately summarised your position?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And do I understand that a tank is described as

 4     not consumable within the army?  Within the VJ.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  It was given to the army for

 6     their use.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  And what happens when its life

 8     comes to an end?  It cannot be used either because of damage or because

 9     the engine has seized.  It has just really come to the end of its life.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they could not repair it in our

11     repair plants and if the situation was such that it basically expired for

12     practical purposes and cannot be used anymore, then the minister of

13     defence would issue a decision on what to do with that tank.  It could be

14     decommissioned.  It could be recycled.  It could be sell -- it could be

15     sold into scrap iron.  It could be sold in parts.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you there, sir.  I'm not asking you

17     what becomes of it when its life comes to an end.  I'm asking whether

18     during its life is it not a consumable?  Precisely because its life does

19     come to an end, doesn't it become a consumable?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that would be a good reason,

21     because it has no practical purpose anymore.  It cannot be used for its

22     original purpose.  What purpose does a tank serve in the army?  It serves

23     the purpose of training soldiers on how to use it, what to do with it --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  You're obviously, perhaps, not able to

25     answer my question.  I'm not asking about the purpose of a tank.

Page 11468

 1             You may proceed, Mr. Thomas.

 2             MR. THOMAS:

 3        Q.   General, there was no power under the Law on Property for the

 4     Chief of General Staff of the VJ to give ammunition and weapons from the

 5     VJ war reserves to the VRS or the SVK, was there?

 6        A.   No, but if there was a decision of the Supreme Defence Council on

 7     that issue, then they would proceed in that manner.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Could we have P1009 on the screen, please.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm told it's under seal, sir.

10             MR. THOMAS:  My apologies, Your Honour.  It is.  If we could

11     please move into private session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

13 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  May the curtain please be

16     brought down.  Thank you.

17             Yes, Mr. Thomas.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We'll just wait for P1009

19     on the screen, please.

20        Q.   You will see that that is order of President Lilic --

21     President Lilic, General.  Just take a moment to familiarise yourself

22     with what is on the screen in front of you.

23             My question is this:  On the basis of this order, then, was the

24     Chief of the General Staff given the authority he needed to provide

25     weapons and military equipment to the VRS and the SVK?

Page 11469

 1        A.   I have to reiterate once again that all of these documents are

 2     new to me.  I did not work on these matters.  I guess if it's written as

 3     it is, that the Chief of the General Staff acted in accordance with it.

 4     However, I do know that not a single piece of resource of the Army of

 5     Yugoslavia, especially those coming from the war reserves and materiel

 6     reserves and combat equipment that was in daily use, could not be taken

 7     out of the Army of Yugoslavia without the previous decision of the

 8     Supreme Defence Council.

 9             However, let me repeat that I have trouble answering these

10     questions because they do not come under my competencies.  I'm just

11     giving you what I know in general terms, that I learned of indirectly.  I

12     did not deal with this in my work, and I'm not competent to answer these

13     questions in more detail.  I don't think that my answers when it comes to

14     these matters are valid.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, I see you're on your feet.  I'm not

16     quite sure why.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.  I'm trying to get these microphones to

18     work.  Apparently there's not a copy in B/C/S of the document that was

19     being discussed with the witness by Mr. Thomas.  Once again, if -- if it

20     would be of some assistance, I'm more than happy to supply --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the screen shows -- the screen shows a B/C/S

22     document.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On the screen we can see a cover

24     letter by the National Council for Co-operation with The Hague Tribunal,

25     and the next page is the actual document in B/C/S.

Page 11470

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  And I'm grateful to my learned friends, sir.  I

 3     hadn't observed that.

 4        Q.   General, please take the opportunity to read this document.  This

 5     is the document that I was intending that you read earlier.  So please

 6     forgive me.  This was the document that should have been on the screen

 7     for you, sir.

 8        A.   Let me say once again that I'm not able to comment on these

 9     documents at all.

10        Q.   All right.  Thank you, General.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But, Mr. Jovanic, would this document -- sorry.

12     Would this document, sir, confirm what you just told us at page 23,

13     line 17, where you said:

14              "No.  But if there was a decision of the Supreme Defence Council

15     on that issue, then they would proceed in that manner."

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that that's how it is.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   General, dealing --

20             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry.  We can take this document off the

21     screen, Your Honours, and move back into open session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session

23     after the document has been removed from the screen.

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 11471

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  I guess we don't need to wait

 2     for the page to run through before the blind is lifted.

 3             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   General, I take it it was not part of your department's purpose

 5     in the MOD to monitor the levels of VJ war reserves.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, did you hear the question?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.

 8             MR. THOMAS:

 9        Q.   Can you tell us, sir, whose responsibility it was to monitor the

10     levels of VJ war reserves?

11        A.   In the General Staff, the administrations that were responsible

12     based on the type of war reserves, and when it came to the Ministry, then

13     the organ responsible was the military economic sector.

14        Q.   Do you know whether the MOD was aware that ammunitions and

15     weapons were being supplied by the VJ to the VRS and SVK?  Was the MOD

16     aware of that?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The MOD is a -- is an organ.  It's an

19     institution, and the manner in which the question has been -- been asked

20     it would be impossible for the witness to answer whether or not the

21     entire Ministry of Defence was aware or not aware of something.  If he's

22     asking whether a specific individual or individuals who were responsible

23     for the war economy had that information, that's a different question.

24     So I'd object on the question being vague and ambiguous.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

Page 11472

 1             MR. THOMAS:  I can be more precise, sir.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please be.

 3             MR. THOMAS:

 4        Q.   Which persons or organs within the MOD would have been aware, to

 5     your knowledge, that the VJ was supplying ammunitions and weapons to the

 6     VRS and SVK?

 7        A.   I wouldn't want to --

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- discuss persons --

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I apologise.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't want to discuss persons,

13     because persons changed over time.  Now, are we talking about a specific

14     year, a specific period?  In that case, I might remember who headed a

15     particular institution, but generally speaking, if we're talking about an

16     institution or a sector, it would be the military economic sector within

17     the --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can discuss -- if you don't want to discuss

19     persons, you can discuss offices, the office of the minister of defence,

20     the office of the deputy minister, the office of the General -- the Chief

21     of the General Staff of the VJ, for argument's sake, you know, even if

22     you don't give it a name.  Which officials would have -- would have been

23     aware?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The head of the military economic

25     sector and the heads of administrations within the military economic

Page 11473

 1     sector depending on the type of resource involved, the type of asset, the

 2     particular piece from the war reserves.  That is my assessment.

 3             My administration did not know about that and did not need to

 4     know about that, but it is the military economic sector in the

 5     Ministry of Defence that was supposed to know about that.

 6             MR. THOMAS:

 7        Q.   General, did you know that the VJ was sending ammunitions and

 8     weapons to the VRS and the SVK?

 9        A.   I specifically did not know about that.  I may or may not assume

10     that that was the case, but now that I've seen these documents that

11     you've showed me, I mean, I hadn't seen them earlier, on the basis of

12     these documents I assume that that may have been the case.  But, really,

13     I did not know about that specifically.

14        Q.   Well, in the time that you headed up the finance and budget

15     department at the MOD and were responsible for coordinating the MOD and

16     VJ plans into a national budget, you told us that your department would

17     frequently engage in discussions with the General Staff of the VJ

18     specifically to discuss what the VJ was asking for and to tell them

19     whether that was realistic given the funds that were likely to be made

20     available.

21             In the context of those discussions, you must have been aware

22     what was VJ was spending its resources on, wouldn't you?

23        A.   [No interpretation]

24        Q.   And you were faced each year with requests for the replenishment

25     of war materiel, war materiel which was declining at a very fast rate,

Page 11474

 1     wasn't it?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The transcript does not reflect the

 5     answer in line 8 on page 29.  The witness said:  "That's right."

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, there was no audible answer

 7     in the booth.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we get help?  What was the answer, those

 9     who -- can we get the answer from the witness, sir.

10             MR. THOMAS:  If it helps, sir, I heard, "Tako je," which I now

11     know what that means.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I would rather you didn't testify.  Let the

13     witness repeat the answer.

14             MR. THOMAS:  I'll put the question again, sir.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, before the witness repeats the

17     answer, apparently there seems to be some difficulty with the booth,

18     because we're hearing words that apparently the interpretation booth is

19     not hearing.  I don't know if his speakers need to be -- microphones need

20     to be turned up a bit or there's some other way that we can accommodate

21     the booth, because I'm hearing words, I know the Bench has heard words, I

22     know Mr. Thomas has heard words which apparently the interpreter has not.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could somebody please check the witness's

24     microphones and try to bring them closer to him, please.

25             Okay.  Can you repeat the question, Mr. Thomas.

Page 11475

 1             MR. THOMAS:  I can, sir.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  "In the context of those discussions you must have

 3     been aware what was VJ -- what VJ was spending its resources on, wouldn't

 4     you?"

 5             MR. THOMAS:

 6        Q.   And, General, was your answer yes?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   And given that you were aware of the very fast rate at which VJ

 9     war reserves were being depleted and given that the VJ was a peacetime

10     army, where -- where were the VJ reserves going?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, the manner in which the question is asked

13     calls for speculation on the part of the witness.  I know that Mr. Thomas

14     has a answer in his own head, but the manner in which he asked the

15     question certainly calls for speculation on the part of this witness.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

17             MR. THOMAS:  I can rephrase the question.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

19             MR. THOMAS:

20        Q.   Where did you think the VJ reserves were going?

21        A.   The reserves of the Army of Yugoslavia were used for manning

22     units and institutions of the Army of Yugoslavia, because units conduct

23     training on a daily basis.  Also, every day energy resources are being

24     used and different types of materiel, depending on the type of planning

25     based on the training plan of the Army of Yugoslavia.  There are training

Page 11476

 1     programmes that require a lot more resources, others that require less.

 2     So every day certain amounts of equipment are being sent from these war

 3     reserves.

 4             Now, the reserves go up and down, and depending upon that, annual

 5     financial plans envisage the replenishment of these war reserves.  So

 6     life and work in the Army of Yugoslavia, especially the process of

 7     training, requires the daily use of material, starting with fuel, reserve

 8     food supplies, because there are two different types of food.  In regular

 9     peacetime conditions it is one type of food, and in the field there is a

10     different type of food that is provided, usually from the reserves.  Then

11     ammunition is used in target practice.  And let me not go into all of

12     that because that is not really my line of work.  However, as far as that

13     is concerned, and that is what the army exists for, to train and to be

14     ready, every year there is replenishment depending on the financial

15     resources that the country has.

16             As the country's budget went down, there were less and less

17     resources for providing more materiel to the army, so the reserves could

18     not always be replenished at prescribed levels.

19             Salaries and pensions that ensure the standard of living of the

20     army are a fixed category, and every year certain amounts had to be

21     allocated for that on the basis of the regulations governing salaries.

22     Now, everything that remained was then allocated according to priorities,

23     and there was less and less all the time, including war reserves, and

24     that is how the volume of the war reserves went down.  Now, to what

25     extent, that depended on the needs and priorities of the army in terms of

Page 11477

 1     war material reserves.  That is how I see this question.

 2        Q.   General, there was insufficient money to cover the VJ plan,

 3     wasn't there?

 4        A.   That's right.  Yes.

 5        Q.   The VJ would always ask for more than it was possible to give?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   The VJ was concerned about its low war reserves and the effect

 8     that this would have on combat readiness?

 9        A.   Correct.  And it wasn't only because of materiel reserves.  It

10     also had to do with the other needs of the military.

11        Q.   The MOD, that is, your department of the MOD, would engage with

12     the General Staff of the VJ in discussions about where costs could be

13     saved, where resources could be allocated from one point of expenditure

14     to another, all with the aim of getting the budget passed.

15        A.   That's right.

16        Q.   During --

17             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was going to ask you if that would be a

19     convenient moment or do you want -- do you want to wrap up something?

20             MR. THOMAS:  I'm nearly done, sir, with this question.

21        Q.   During those discussions, are you saying that the VJ General

22     Staff never raised with your department the question or the issue of

23     where their war reserves were going?

24        A.   They had no need to do that in view of my administration, the

25     administration for finance and budget.  For that purpose, there was the

Page 11478

 1     military economic sector in the Ministry of Defence.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 3             MR. THOMAS:  That would be an appropriate place to stop.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will take a break and come back at quarter to.

 5     Court adjourned.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   General, just a few questions and then you and I are done.  You

11     spoke yesterday, sir, of the special-purpose production industry and the

12     fact that this was subordinated to the MOD, specifically the department

13     for military economy.

14             I'd like you to look, please, at document P2427, if we can have

15     that on the screen.

16             MR. THOMAS:  And I'm sorry, Your Honours, before that comes up on

17     the screen, that is under seal.  If we could please move into private

18     session.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

20     P24 ...

21             MR. THOMAS:  P2427, sir.

22 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             MR. THOMAS:

Page 11479

 1        Q.   Just take a moment, sir, to read that document.

 2        A.   I cannot.  All of it is blurred.  It's a very poor copy.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I have a hard copy which is also blurred, but it

 5     may be better.  I'm more than happy to see if that's of any assistance.

 6     If you could show that to Mr. Thomas so he could confirm that's the

 7     document.

 8             MR. THOMAS:

 9        Q.   Have you had the chance to read that document now, sir?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You will see that it's from General Mladic on behalf of the VRS,

12     addressed to the Chief of General Staff of the VJ personally.  Before I

13     ask you a question about the document, I wonder if you could confirm some

14     details for us.  Do you know that a FAB-275 is an air bomb?

15        A.   I cannot give any comments, because I really do not know about

16     this.  I'm not familiar with such matters at all.

17        Q.   Sir, I just want you to deal with my specific question one at a

18     time.  Do you know what a FAB-275 is?

19        A.   Very well.  I assume it's some kind of a vehicle.  I really don't

20     know.  I'm not an expert in that field, and I really cannot tell

21     different things apart.  I never worked with this kind of thing.  I'm an

22     economist by training.

23        Q.   Okay.  Can you confirm for us, however, that the Krusik factory

24     is a special-purpose production facility situated in -- or near Valjevo

25     in Serbia?

Page 11480

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And does come within those special-purpose facilities which you

 3     described yesterday as being subordinated to the MOD?

 4        A.   Yes.  The military economic sector of the Ministry of Defence;

 5     that's right.

 6        Q.   You will see that the document refers to the director of the

 7     Krusik factory wanting approval from the Chief of the General Staff of

 8     the VJ before the 40 items requested are to be supplied by Krusik to the

 9     RS MOD.  Do you see that?

10        A.   I see that, but I think it was wrong of him to ask approval from

11     this person.  He was supposed to ask the minister of defence for

12     approval.

13        Q.   But nevertheless, what we have here, sir, is a situation, do we

14     not, where the approval of the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ is

15     being sought, don't we?

16        A.   That is what this paper says, but I note that I really cannot

17     give my comments with regard to these documents.  This is the first time

18     I see this.  I never received any such documents.  My administration

19     never received any such documents, and it is really not my line of work.

20     So please allow me not to give comments about this, because there are

21     other officers who would be in charge of that.

22        Q.   Well, the difficulty, General, is that you have given an answer,

23     which is that this is incorrect.  That should have been the approval of

24     the MOD that was sought.  So I want to explore that for a moment.

25             Presumably the MOD, as the organ to which the special-purpose

Page 11481

 1     factories were subordinated to, would have been aware of the proper

 2     procedure; correct?

 3        A.   Well, I assume that he must have known about this document too.

 4     The Chief of General Staff probably submitted this kind of document to

 5     the minister of defence.  This is my assumption because that would be the

 6     right path.  Now, how the situation actually evolved, I really do not

 7     know.  However, the special-purposes production industry could not do

 8     anything without the approval of the minister of defence either.  So it

 9     is probably the path that this document took as well.

10        Q.   All right.  Well, let's look at another example.

11             MR. THOMAS:  If we could have P2727 on the screen, please.  Also

12     remaining in private session, Your Honours.  And could we please have

13     page 2 in the B/C/S first of all; and in the English, I need document

14     with doc ID 0647-6775.

15        Q.   Now, General, you will see here that this is a document from the

16     Ministry of Defence of the FRY, addressed to the office of the Chief of

17     the General Staff, and it is forwarding to the office of the Chief of the

18     General Staff a request from the Republika Srpska for the purchase of

19     Motorola radios for the needs of the Hercegovina Corps of the VRS.  And

20     the Ministry of Defence is asking for the position of the Chief of the

21     General Staff on whether or not these items should be supplied by the MOD

22     to the VRS.

23             Do you know, sir, why that would be?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are these to be supplied by the MOD?  Where do we

25     find that?

Page 11482

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.  At the bottom of the -- sorry.  If we can

 2     go to -- the answer to that, sir, lies -- if we can go to the next

 3     document, which is page 3 in the B/C/S, and document ID 0647-6775 --

 4     sorry, 6776.  It might be the next page of the document that's on the

 5     screen in English.

 6        Q.   And, General, this is the attached request, and you will see that

 7     it is from VRS to the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

 8     Ministry of Defence, request for the purchase of equipment.

 9        A.   I see the document, but I cannot give any comments because I

10     really don't know about that.  That was probably the right course to take

11     to resolve the matter, but I really had nothing to do with it -- or,

12     rather, the administration that I headed had nothing to do with it.

13        Q.   Well, if we look at the first page of the B/C/S and English

14     doc ID 0647-6774, please.

15             Now, if you look at this document, sir, you will see that it is

16     the response from the General Staff to the Ministry of Defence giving its

17     consent to the purchase by the VRS of this equipment from the MOD.

18     Notwithstanding --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question still stands.  Where do we see that it

20     is supplied by the MOD?

21             MR. THOMAS:  The request, sir, was made -- I'm sorry,

22     Your Honour.  The request -- the original request from the RS was

23     directed to the MOD of the FRY.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, but the request is for -- for the VRS to

25     purchase, not purchase from the MOD.  They're saying to purchase.

Page 11483

 1     They're asking for permission to purchase.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  They are, but the request is to the MOD.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  Fair enough.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Okay.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The reason I say this is because you said --

 6     earlier you talked about these Motorola things being supplied by the MOD.

 7             MR. THOMAS:

 8        Q.   If we look, sir, at -- General, if we look at the document that's

 9     on the screen at the moment, do you agree with me that the consent

10     appears to be given to the Ministry of Defence to supply to the VRS the

11     requested equipment as opposed to the VJ supplying the requested

12     equipment?

13        A.   That's what it says here.

14        Q.   For the -- all right.

15        A.   The Army of Yugoslavia was not competent to procure this.  This

16     was normally procured by the minister of defence.

17        Q.   Now, from whose budget would that procurement have been made?

18        A.   In this particular case I wouldn't be able to say.  This is the

19     first time I see this document.  However, if the minister took the

20     decision for something to be purchased, then that must have been included

21     somewhere as an item in the plan, but I couldn't comment on this document

22     beyond this.  If it was the Ministry of Defence that procured this, then

23     the only funding source for this was the plan.  So there could not have

24     been any other funding, no other ministry could have purchased this for

25     them.  But to repeat once again, I am not competent to comment on such

Page 11484

 1     documents because they were outside of my purview.  I did not deal with

 2     such issues.

 3        Q.   The --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas --

 5             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- sorry.  I'm sorry to do this, but I just want

 7     to make sure I'm with you.  You say at page 38, line 16:

 8              "Do you agree with me that the consent appears to be given to

 9     the Ministry of Defence to supply to the VRS the requested equipment as

10     opposed to the VJ supplying the requested equipment?"

11             Could you please, by looking at this document, tell me where that

12     position comes from, where this comes from?  I may be misreading this

13     document.

14             MR. THOMAS:  Well, sir, but perhaps we should ask the witness

15     that.  He --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's your question.  I'm asking you about the

17     question you posed to the witness.

18             MR. THOMAS:  No problem.  The request comes in from the VRS to

19     the MOD.  It is addressed to the MOD.  We want to purchase Motorolas.

20     The MOD sends it to the General Staff saying, What's your position on

21     this request?  The VJ writes back to the MOD saying, Yes, we can agree

22     that they can purchase it.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, where from that do you get it that the MOD is

24     to supply the VRS?

25             MR. THOMAS:  Well, that's why I asked the witness that this is

Page 11485

 1     what the import of these documents is.  The request is being made to the

 2     MOD.  The MOD hasn't instructed or passed on the request to the VJ.  It

 3     has simply asked for the VJ's position --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  -- as to whether or not the sale could be made.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But my question to you is:  Where do we get

 7     it from this document that the Ministry of Defence is to supply the VRS

 8     with the requested equipment, because I see here granting of permission

 9     to purchase, from whatever source.

10             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.  Well, that's an interpretation, sir.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's not an interpretation.

12              "We hereby inform you that the General Staff of the Yugoslav

13     Army agreed that the Army of the Republika Srpska purchase for the needs

14     of the Hercegovina Corps mobile and stable RTIU type Motorola in

15     accordance with the specifications delivered by the bureau of the

16     Republika Srpska."

17             They agreed that they purchase.  I don't see where the supplier

18     is mentioned.

19             MR. THOMAS:  I agree sir.  I agree, sir.  But the witness agreed

20     that this was a purchase from the MOD.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, but this is my problem with you and the

22     General, that you are putting interpretations to this document that is

23     not apparent from the document.

24             MR. THOMAS:  But that's the interpretation the General agrees

25     with.

Page 11486

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, you put it to him --

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, I did.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You -- you -- yeah.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, I did.  That's my interpretation of the

 5     document.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  I put it to him and he agreed with that

 8     interpretation.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

10             MR. THOMAS:  So I appreciate Your Honour's position and that's

11     why I --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no, yeah.  My position is with the paper, with

13     the document before us.  Okay.

14             MR. THOMAS:  Okay.

15        Q.   Now, General, what I want to ask you is this:  The federal -- the

16     national defence budget provided for the procurement of military

17     material, for example, communication, Motorola equipment.  Not

18     specifically, but it provided for the VJ to be able to procure military

19     equipment, didn't it?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   The MOD part of the plan, as opposed to the VJ part of the plan,

22     did not provide for the procurement of military equipment, because the

23     MOD did not itself maintain war reserves, did it?

24        A.   I didn't understand this.

25        Q.   All right.  For this purchase to have been made by the RS, was

Page 11487

 1     this something that would have happened outside of the national defence

 2     budget?

 3        A.   I don't know that.

 4        Q.   What part of the national defence budget provided for the

 5     procurement of material for the VRS?

 6        A.   Based on the content of the budget, not a single one, because the

 7     budget planned for the needs of the Army of Yugoslavia, and there were no

 8     provisions made for any structures outside of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 9        Q.   So how is it that procurement can be made for the VRS?

10        A.   In this particular case I really don't know.  This is the first

11     time I see this document, and I'm really not aware of such procurements.

12     These procurements did not go via my administration.  They went via

13     military economic sector.

14             Perhaps you need to clarify this with other witnesses or by using

15     some other channels, but I do not wish to make a mistake.  This is not my

16     field of work, and I do -- I would rather not go into any matters that

17     were outside of my line of work.

18             All of these documents that pertain to requests for materiel and

19     for procurement have nothing to do with my administration.  I would

20     kindly ask that such questions not be put to me.

21        Q.   All right, General.  Thank you.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  That concludes my

23     cross-examination.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

25             Any re-examination?

Page 11488

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

 2        Q.   I'd like to see if we can potentially obtain some clarification

 3     with regard to the matter that you were just discussing with Mr. Thomas.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe we were in private session.  We can go

 5     into open session because I'm not going to be referring to the document

 6     in specific.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  May the Chamber --

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I do, I'll ask.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:

14        Q.   If an -- if an independent state or party wished to purchase

15     material from the military industry that existed in Serbia, did you have

16     to be informed of that fact?

17        A.   Not my administration specifically.

18        Q.   In order for --

19        A.   Not my administration specifically.

20        Q.   In order for the military industry to engage in an economic

21     transaction, meaning the sale of goods, to your knowledge, did some

22     department in the military -- in the Ministry of Defence have to be

23     informed?

24        A.   Yes, the military economic sector.  When it came to an export of

25     a piece of equipment manufactured by military industry and sold overseas,

Page 11489

 1     I suppose that the federal government had to be made aware of this as

 2     well.  But within the ministry, it was the military economic sector.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I wish to move on now to two or three other brief

 4     matters.  The first one being, prior to the break-up of the former

 5     Yugoslavia, I take it that the war reserves that we have been discussing

 6     were stable and existed throughout the territory of the former

 7     Yugoslavia.  Would that be a fair statement?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   During the break-up of the former Yugoslavia, if you know, and if

10     you don't, please tell us, those reserves were diminished in part by

11     virtue of the fact that they were seized by the Croatian government or

12     Croatian forces --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

14             MR. THOMAS:  Objection, leading, sir.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.  As I told Mr. Thomas yesterday, I'm

17     not going to fight about leading questions.

18        Q.   Do you know --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please don't lead.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:

21        Q.   Do you know what parties, if any, were responsible for the

22     depletion of the war reserves that existed in the former Yugoslavia?

23        A.   I did not understand your question.

24        Q.   Sure.  Let me put it to you in another way.  During the break-up

25     of the former Yugoslavia, there were war reserves that -- that existed

Page 11490

 1     throughout the territory.  Is that a fair statement?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Those war reserves which had previously been for the benefit of

 4     the entire country had now been, if I can put it in terms, had now

 5     been --

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Objection, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Objection, leading.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Now I think not.

10        Q.   Had now been effected, is the question --

11             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't believe --

13             MR. THOMAS:  I've made an objection.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You've got to wait for a ruling.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do apologise.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Even if you --

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sorry.  You're right.  You're absolutely right.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not able to rule on this.  Maybe my colleagues

19     might help me, simply because the question is not complete.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  "Those war reserves which had previously been for

22     the benefit of the entire country had now been, if I can put it in terms,

23     had now been --"

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:

25        Q.   Effected by virtue of the break-up of the former Yugoslavia; is

Page 11491

 1     that a correct statement?

 2             MR. THOMAS:  That's a leading question.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say "effected" or "affected"?

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Effected.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  That's leading, sir.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 7        Q.   After the break-up of the former Yugoslavia or during the

 8     break-up of the former Yugoslavia, what, if anything, happened with

 9     regard to the war reserves that had existed in the former Yugoslavia as

10     an entire region?  If you know.

11        A.   I don't know specifically, but I suppose that as units pulled

12     out, whatever war reserves from depots they could take they took with

13     them, and whatever they couldn't take remained in the territory where

14     they were.  However, I was not involved in these matters, so I wouldn't

15     know in greater detail.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Moving to another subject.  With regard to the

17     Supreme Defence Council, which you have mentioned, do you know who

18     participated in those sessions?  And by "who," I mean which individuals

19     and from what departments they came.

20        A.   The composition of the Supreme Defence Council was as follows:

21     President of the country, of the state; presidents of the republics.  So

22     those were the members of the Supreme Defence Council.  However, as far

23     as I know, the sessions of the Supreme Defence Council were attended also

24     by the federal Prime Minister and occasionally, as needed, federal

25     finance minister if financial issues were discussed, budget and so on.

Page 11492

 1     Sessions were also attended by the federal minister of defence and Chief

 2     of the General Staff.  They were not members of the Supreme Defence

 3     Council, but when certain issues were discussed they attended.

 4             I suppose that Supreme Defence Council also invited some other

 5     persons who were in high positions and who could assist with certain

 6     matters that were on the agenda.

 7             That's my reply.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And finally, you were asked the following question by

 9     Mr. Thomas, and you gave the following response, and I'll ask a question

10     after I give you this.  You were asked:

11             "You would have also been aware that they were also never able to

12     get into the federal budget as much as they said they needed."

13             And your answer was:

14             "That's correct."

15             And my question to you is:  In terms of planning a federal

16     budget, has anybody ever received as much as they said they needed?

17        A.   Nobody received as much as they had asked for.  Everybody always

18     asked for more, and they get what they get.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Jovanic.  That brings us to the

21     conclusion of your testimony.  Thank you very much for taking the time to

22     come and testify at the Tribunal.  You are now excused.  You may stand

23     down, and please travel well back home.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 11493

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In terms of the application that was made this

 2     morning, are we hearing one witness or is this the end of it?  One more

 3     witness or this is the end of it?

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's the end of it for today, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For the day, until the 3rd of May.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That is correct, Your Honour.  And we will keep

 7     the Chamber informed as to the progress.  In the event that anything

 8     speeds up, we'll let the Chamber know that too.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Well, the matter stands adjourned until the

10     3rd of May.  I may not have my diary with me so to a court to be

11     determined and a time to be determined.

12             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, before we adjourn may I just raise one

13     matter, a brief matter, and that is that I would like to regulate the

14     status of one exhibit.  It is P2518.  On the 12th of May, Your Honour

15     asked that that exhibit be MFI'd, pending an official translation from

16     CLSS, and that English --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  12th of May, 2009.

18             MR. HARMON:  12th of May, 2010, and it's -- I can refer Your

19     Honour to the transcript --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That date has not come yet.

21             MR. HARMON:  2009, I'm sorry, Your Honour.  It's -- no, I'm

22     informed it was 2010.  12th of March, 2010, I've made a mistake.  Yes.

23     And the transcript reference is page 11005 to 11006.  Your Honour asked

24     that that document be MFI'd.  We've -- pending receipt of an English

25     translation from CLSS.  That translation has been obtained.  We would ask

Page 11494

 1     permission that that be now uploaded into e-court and that the MFI

 2     designation on that exhibit be removed.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's correct, and we concur.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 5             Mr. Registrar also concurs, so be it done.  Okay.  Court

 6     adjourned until the 3rd of May.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.23 a.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day

 9                           of May, 2010