1 Tuesday, 15 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. Sorry about the long delay.
7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 And could we have appearances for the day, starting with the
13 Prosecution, please.
14 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. Bronagh McKenna,
15 Dan Saxon, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
17 And for the Defence.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
19 morning to everyone in the courtroom. Novak Lukic and Boris Zorko for
20 the Defence of Mr. Perisic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
22 Once again, the Chamber is sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, in
23 Judge David's absence.
24 Do you want to call the witness, Mr. Lukic?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, by all means, Your Honour.
1 While we're waiting for the witness to be brought in, given that
2 we have a late start are we going to have a break in an hour and 15
3 minutes as usual? I should like to know to organise my examination.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think let's go for an hour and 15 minutes as
5 usual, and then we'll try to adjust as we go along. I tried to do it now
6 mentally but I couldn't work it out. I need paper, so we'll work it out.
7 MR. LUKIC: 11.25.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: As you please, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Skrbic -- I beg your pardon.
12 Put on your headphones.
13 Good morning, Mr. Skrbic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope you had a restful night. We're sorry that
16 we started late. We had technical problems with these gadgets, the
17 technological gadgets that we have here, and I hope you were not bored
18 waiting for us to get started since 9.00.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have
20 understanding for my colleagues. I do know something about technical
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 Just to remind you, Mr. Skrbic, that you are still bound by the
24 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the
25 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Thank you very
2 Mr. Lukic.
3 WITNESS: PETAR SKRBIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Skrbic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. Let us resume where we stopped yesterday, and that's, let me
9 remind you, the point where you were appointed assistant commander in the
10 2nd Krajina Corps for moral, religious affairs, which is roughly between
11 end of 1993 and the summer of 1994. Let us remind ourselves of that
12 time. Can you briefly describe for Their Honours what the tasks and
13 duties were of your department and specifically of you as the assistant
14 commander for that particular field.
15 A. As the very name of the department suggests, the tasks were - and
16 I will briefly describe them - to follow and monitor the situation with
17 regard to the morale of the 2nd Krajina Corps within the VRS and to file
18 a periodical, that's to say monthly, reports to the VRS superior levels
19 and the commander himself in fact. This is an important area in every
20 army. We would inform the general public through the mass media about
21 the activities in the area of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps.
22 We also published a paper of ours which was called the "Krajina Fighter,"
23 Krajiski Borac. And as far as the legal affairs are concerned, our role
24 was that of an administrative organ, although in my department I had a
25 professional lawyer who had been a judge before the war in Bosanski
1 Petrovac. Since he was mobilised, he was a member of my department.
2 Our prominent role was to tour the brigades and talk to troops
3 about the problems they had, to furnish them with cigarettes if we had
4 any, to inform them of the situation in other units and the corps as a
5 whole if we had any such information. That would briefly sum up the role
6 that we had.
7 Q. In professional terms, who was your superior or subordinate along
8 the professional chain of command in the VRS and what sort of
9 relationship existed between you and the Main Staff, if any, in the field
10 of morale and religious affairs and information?
11 A. On the issue of morale, I could not address the Main Staff on any
12 issues if I did not have the approval of the commander of the 2nd Krajina
13 Corps. However, in professional terms - and this is what you asked me
14 about in your question - I co-operated for the sector for morale,
15 religious, and legal affairs of the Main Staff of the VRS.
16 Q. You say that you toured the defence lines and you talked to
17 troops. What problems were there with regard to the morale in the VRS at
18 the time you were a member of the 2nd Krajina Corps?
19 A. All the difficulties that were experienced by those on the front
20 lines had their bearing on the morale, be it negative or positive. The
21 troops put a number of questions to us, many of whom we could not answer
22 specifically. For that reason, we would periodically write reports and
23 send them to brigade commanders. The idea behind this was to brief them
24 on all these issues; although, we knew up front that some of these
25 problems could not be resolved easily since the front lines were spread
1 out and we knew that many of the troops would never receive the
2 information that we sent down to subordinate units.
3 Q. In Republika Srpska did there exist the system of military
4 judiciary, in other words, a system of military prosecutor's offices and
5 military courts?
6 A. Yes, it did.
7 Q. Did there exist, and if so at which level, military disciplinary
8 courts in the Republika Srpska?
9 A. At the level of corps there existed military disciplinary courts,
10 at the level of all corps save for the 2nd Krajina Corps. In that
11 respect we had to rely on the military disciplinary court of the
12 1st Krajina Corps. The 1st Krajina Corps was headquartered in
13 Banja Luka.
14 Q. Did the members of the command, including the command, meet; did
15 they have regular meetings; and if so, how frequently would they meet
16 during your time there?
17 A. We had two types of meeting at the command of the 2nd Krajina
18 Corps. One set of meetings would normally take place every morning in
19 the operations centre of the 2nd Krajina Corps. It would be a briefing
20 where we would receive all the intelligence that had been gathered, and
21 we would be issued with direct tasks. The second sort of meetings were
22 meetings of the commanders of all the units of the 2nd Krajina Corps,
23 where issues would be discussed as per the various fields and they could
24 be summed up as follows: Operational field, morale, logistics issues --
25 THE INTERPRETER: And another one the interpreter didn't catch.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter didn't catch the third type of
2 professional line -- field that was mentioned. Can the witness please
3 repeat that. She caught operation field, morale, logistic issues --
4 MR. LUKIC: Personnel I think.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personnel issues.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. During your time in the 2nd Krajina Corps and when participating
9 in these meetings, what sort of information did you have on how the
10 logistics sector functioned in the 2nd Krajina Corps?
11 A. In addition to the operational and combat issues, logistics posed
12 the gravest of problems. That's because the 2nd Krajina Corps did not
13 have a proper logistics support; rather, through a set of coincidences
14 the brigades of the 2nd Krajina Corps had to rely on municipal bodies for
15 logistics. There were also donors in that regard, and occasionally we
16 would be given the logistics support from the Croatian army. The
17 2nd Krajina Corps otherwise relied on the 14th Logistics Base, which was
18 headquartered in Banja Luka.
19 Q. I'm interested specifically in the following. You said that you
20 would occasionally be assisted by the Croatian army as well. Can you
21 clarify this? What do you mean by that?
22 A. The Croatian army provided resources for the HVO, and I think it
23 was in the area of Zepce. That's opposite the area of responsibility of
24 the 2nd Krajina Corps. They particularly provided fuel and we were in
25 shortage of that. The agreement was that once they would be transporting
1 fuel and transiting the area of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps,
2 they should leave behind a certain amount of fuel. But this arrangement
3 was in place for as long as there existed the conflict with the Army
4 of -- the Muslim army, the BH army. Afterwards, the deal was off.
5 Q. You've explained this quite clearly for Their Honours and I don't
6 want to lead you in any way. Can you tell us what happened if there were
7 a certain number of tanker trucks involved?
8 A. Well, there's no need for you to lead me on anything. I told you
9 during proofing that if we agree that three tanker trucks would be on
10 their way with fuel, two of them would proceed on and one would be left
11 behind in our territory, stay with us. That was the deal. Let me add
12 that we did not in any way seize it from them. It was their offer in
13 exchange for passage across the territory of the 2nd Krajina Corps.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up document P1011.
16 Q. We will first look at page 1 and then at the last page. I'm
17 primarily interested in the form of the document, not the contents. On
18 page 1 it is written "Sector For Morale and Religious Affairs." And then
19 the date is the 27th of May, 1993, daily report number 1.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have the last page of the
21 document, please. And if we could enlarge the bottom part of it.
22 Q. It states: "Information service, to be delivered to the Main
23 Staff of the VRS, PKM1, KK, 2 KK, IBK, SRK, DK, HK, V, and PVL, and then
24 it's stated GS/VJ (administration for information) Ministry of Defence of
25 the FRY."
1 This is a document dating back to the period when you were still
2 a member of the Army of Yugoslavia in the administration for information
3 of the General Staff. Can I first ask you whose document this is because
4 the heading isn't that specific.
5 A. Mr. Lukic, you've explained what the heading of the document was,
6 which said that it was a document from the sector for morale, religious,
7 and legal affairs of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. You
8 then explained who the document was addressed to, but you referred to
9 abbreviations only. If need be, Your Honours, I can give you the full
11 Q. No need for that. I'll ask you specifically about one of these
12 acronyms, but my first question is this. While you were on the
13 administration for information of the General Staff of the Army of
14 Yugoslavia, did you have occasion to see documents such as this one, if
15 you recall?
16 A. I'm looking at a copy of a document whose authenticity is beyond
17 doubt, but a document such as this one is not something I had occasion to
18 see while I was in the administration for information.
19 Q. If such documents had been sent to the administration for
20 information, would they have been sent to the chief of the
21 administration, to you personally, or specifically tell us was it your
22 duty to be acquainted with all the documents that were received by the
24 A. All the documents that were sent to the administration would end
25 up on the desk of the chief of the administration, who would in turn
1 decide on a need-to-know basis who it was who had to be acquainted with
2 it. The contents of this document are such that the chief of the
3 administration could have understood the document to have been sent to
4 him for his information. In other words, he didn't have to forward it to
5 anyone. He could have only asked the secretary to file it in the
6 archives. However, where documents contained information that was
7 important in his view, he would inform members of the administration
8 thereof at meetings that were held specifically for briefing. He would
9 not, in that case, mention the source of that particular information.
10 Q. From the start of 1994 you held the position of the assistant
11 commander for morale, religious, and legal affairs in the 2nd Krajina
12 Corps. We were able to see that the document back then in May of 1995
13 was also sent to the KK. What does this abbreviation stand for -- that
14 it was sent to the 2nd KK, what does that stand for?
15 A. The acronym 2 KK stands for the 2nd Krajina Corps, but this isn't
16 the sort of document that I was able to see in the 2nd Krajina Corps nor
17 did the -- such documents come there later on. The document states or
18 purports to be a daily report. If you go back to the start of the
19 document, you'll see that it is a daily report. And with your leave, I
20 can tell you what sort of information we received in these documents.
21 Q. Just a second, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]...
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, just to make sure that the record is
24 clear, the English transcript, line 10, page 9, in the question from
25 Mr. Lukic describes the document as being from May of 1995. That may be
1 an error because both versions appear to say "May 1993." I just wanted
2 to keep the record clear. That's all.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we say it's from May 1993?
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Must have been a mistake,
7 either I made a mistake or a typo, but the witness spoke about May of
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 Sorry, Mr. Lukic. I -- you said to the witness a little earlier
11 that at the time of the issue of this document he was in the
12 administration of the VJ in the information service, and you asked him
13 whether he had occasion to receive it while he was there, and he says he
14 never saw it. Now you're asking him about the KK, which is the
15 Krajina Corps, and asking him whether he saw it while he was there. Now,
16 in 1993 he was in the administration of the VJ. There's no way he could
17 see this document in the 2nd Krajina Corps.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since the document in May 1995 was
19 sent to the administration and the 2nd Krajina Corps, what I wanted to
20 know is whether the witness, once he went to the Krajina Corps, whether
21 he saw such documents. So after 1994 whether such reports were sent to
22 the Krajina Corps. That was the second level of my question.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you then saying you don't take Mr. Saxon's
24 correction of line 10 of page 9 because you really did mean 1995? That
25 now in 1995 he was now in the 2nd Krajina Corps -- and therefore what are
1 you saying? Anyway, what you are saying is sequentially when he was in
2 the administration he didn't -- did he see it; and when he finally came
3 to the Krajina Corps, did he also see it?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My intention was to see whether there
7 was a continuity of these reports of the Prosecution in the entire period
8 mentioned in the indictment. The OTP offered evidence for 1993. I was
9 interested in exploring whether such documents existed in 1994 because
10 this witness was at the position, he held the position where he was
11 supposed to receive such reports.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. You may proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Skrbic, while you were in the 2nd Krajina Corps at the
15 position of the assistant for morale, but -- so it was end of 1993 until
16 the summer of 1994, what kind of information did you receive from the
17 Main Staff, from the sector for morale, religious, and legal affairs, and
18 how often did you receive such information?
19 A. From the sector for morale, religious, and legal affairs of the
20 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, we would receive information
21 on a monthly basis. The content of that information concerned the state
22 of morale in the Army of Republika Srpska. The information was compiled
23 on the basis of analysis and sublimation of the data which the sector had
24 received from all corps, independent units, and air force and
25 anti-aircraft defence.
1 Q. Thank you. Please continue.
2 A. The information coming from the sector for morale, religious, and
3 legal affairs of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska could not
4 be sent to the units without prior knowledge of the commander of the Main
5 Staff of the VRS.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in proofing I showed to
8 this witness this particular document, P1011, and all other documents up
9 to P1066. I have informed Mr. Saxon about it. These are daily reports
10 of the same kind, day by day. So as not to show all of these individual
11 documents to the witness, I just wanted to ask the witness to confirm
12 that I have showed these documents to him and to confirm that what he has
13 said just now pertains to all other five documents. I apologise, it
14 should be P1016.
15 These are daily reports of the type that you see on the screen,
16 just on sequential days. The last report is dated 18th of June, 1993.
17 So for that brief period of time we have five documents. If I were to
18 put a general question to the witness and ask him whether this pertains
19 to all other five documents I have showed him during proofing, then would
20 you approve that that would be an appropriate way to proceed without
21 showing each individual document to the witness?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're doing something that is never done,
23 Mr. Lukic. Maybe -- Mr. Saxon, do you have any comment to make on what
24 he is saying?
25 MR. SAXON: I think it would be more helpful if very briefly we
1 could hear a comment on the document because this may affect what I do
2 with my cross-examination, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: On which document?
4 MR. SAXON: On this series of five or six documents that
5 Mr. Lukic has just -- has just mentioned --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, that's what he wants to do, he wants to get
7 a comment from him on a generalised basis that --
8 MR. SAXON: Yeah --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- I think what he was asking if he were to be
10 shown the other five would these comments be the same as his comments
11 were on this one. That's all.
12 MR. SAXON: I'd like to hear -- before I take a final position,
13 I'd like to hear the question, but -- if I can.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ask your question, sir.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Skrbic, in proofing I showed you six documents similar to the
17 one you see on the screen. One is dated 28th of May, 1993; and then
18 there is another one on the same date indicating that it was the second
19 daily report for that day; and then we have another document on the 29th
20 of May, 1993, daily report number 1; and then 29th of May of 1993, daily
21 report number 2; and then finally 18th of August, 1993, or perhaps 18th
22 of June, again the same kind of document. Do you remember me showing you
23 these documents such as this one in proofing?
24 A. You showed all of these documents to me. Their contents are very
25 similar and my comment would be completely identical to the one I gave in
1 relation to the first document.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, the transcript interprets your question
3 as saying "and then finally 18th of August, 1993, or perhaps 18th of
4 June ..."
5 Now, is it August or is it June? Because it doesn't say "or
6 rather," it says "or perhaps."
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Let us be as specific as
8 possible concerning this document. Let us put this document only on the
9 screen, it's P1016 --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it the 18th of August or is it the 18th of
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can't see it well. It's not very
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Truly, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Put it on the screen.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the B/C/S heading please be
18 enlarged. It looks more like an 8, 08, to me, Your Honours, although I'm
19 not fully certain.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, it's looks like the English translation gave
21 it August, and then of course there's a question mark before the month.
22 It is what it says. I don't know what it says.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm now going through the text to see
24 whether there would be some indication there, but I really can't find my
25 way in it.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine, Mr. Lukic. You may proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Skrbic, let us now go to your new appointment. Please tell
4 us, when did you transfer to the Main Staff, pursuant to whose decision,
5 and to what position were you appointed?
6 A. Commander of the 2nd Krajina Corps, General Boris, received a
7 cable from the Main Staff of the VRS, indicating that
8 Colonel Petar Skrbic was to report to the Main Staff of the VRS on an
9 urgent basis in a day or two. I was informed about this by the corps
10 commander. He told me that he knew nothing about it, but I had to pack
11 my things and report to the Main Staff of the VRS. Therefore, based on
12 that cable I went to the Main Staff of the VRS I think on the 27th of
13 July. Should I repeat something?
14 Q. No, no. Thank you.
15 Could we now see on the screens part of your personnel file,
16 1D12-0319 is the English version. And could we also call -- all right.
17 Here it is. I'm being told that the draft English translation is linked
18 with this number so that the Judges can follow.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
20 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm just wondering, to make
21 it easier to follow along, is this document -- does this particular
22 document have a Defence 65 ter number?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This document is part of the
25 personnel file of Mr. Skrbic. The B/C/S has a -- is marked as P1688, but
1 this was not admitted into evidence, this particular portion, even though
2 it constitutes a part of the personnel file. I think that we have marked
3 it as such.
4 65 ter of the OTP 07837. I apologise to the interpreters.
5 Q. Mr. Skrbic, what do we see now on our screens? What document is
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And could we scroll down, please, to
8 see who signed the document.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I see on the screen is a
10 document which is a copy of the presidential decree of the president of
11 Republika Srpska, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, which indicates that
12 Colonel Skrbic was appointed to the establishment position in the sector
13 for organisational, mobilisation, and personnel affairs. Given that this
14 is an establishment position that requires a rank of a general, then it
15 is only the president of the republic who is authorised to appoint
16 persons to this position, which in this case was done by the rules, by
17 the president of the republic.
18 Could we now scroll up so I can tell you about something else
19 that I saw on the document.
20 You see that this document was handed in to me personally, and
21 this signature or initials are my initials.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You mean the ones in the upper right corner, handwritten
25 A. Yes, correct. It is in -- you can see in the Cyrillic script it
1 says "to the appointee," and then underneath you see my initials.
2 Q. Based on which regulations did the president of VRS -- or rather,
3 based on whose regulations did the president of the VRS issue this
4 presidential decree?
5 A. In the preamble of this presidential decree there is a specific
6 reference as to the regulations on the basis of which this presidential
7 decree was issued. It says here "pursuant to the Law on the Army of
8 Republika Srpska," Article 11 and so on, and then there's an indication
9 of the "Official Gazette" in which this law was published. So this was
10 done on the basis of the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska.
11 Q. Who was your predecessor in that position, in the position to
12 which you were appointed?
13 A. Before me this position was held by General Mico Grubor.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see another document on
15 the screens, a document coming from the same source which is a personnel
16 file of Colonel Skrbic which was admitted into evidence as P1688. Could
17 we now see 1D12-0317.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we take this one off, Mr. Lukic, what
19 was the number of this one?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The previous one?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, this one. This --
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The previous, yes, I would like to
23 tender it into evidence, but since we only have draft translation perhaps
24 we should MFI it first.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but what was the 65 ter number of this one,
1 this one that appoints the witness to the Republic of Srpska
2 General Staff, sector for organisational, mobilisation --
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, please. Let me check
4 something with my case manager.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm checking this with my case
7 manager to make it easier for everybody. I think that in addition to the
8 fact that this document was on the OTP 65 ter list, we also had the
9 personnel file on our OTP list with a different number. So I will now
10 give you the Defence 65 ter number, but I will need only certain pages
11 from this personnel file. Give us just a second, please.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On our 65 ter list it's under a wrong
14 number. It's not a four-digit number, but it can be found under number
15 285. So this is why I will propose that it now be assigned the following
16 65 ter number: 03330D, and I seek to tender it into evidence and MFI it
17 until the final translation comes in.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: 03330D, triple zero?
19 MR. LUKIC: That's right.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you are tendering it into evidence?
21 You're saying you're tendering it into evidence?
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The document is admitted into evidence,
24 marked for identification, may it please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
1 Exhibit Number D327, marked for identification. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now call 1D12-0317, please.
3 Again, this is a document that comes from the personnel file and it can
4 be found under the same number, and since I will ask that it be tendered
5 into evidence I will now assign the following number to it, 03331D.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you're taking a break and looking at the
7 documents, can I tell you about the times now, Mr. --
8 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hmm.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Instead of going to 11.25, can we go to 11.40?
10 MR. LUKIC: 11.40?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: 11.4-0, 20 to 12.00.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't know how focused the
13 witness will be. It's not a problem with me if we sit for a bit longer.
14 I don't think we have the right document on our screen. I will
15 have to call up a different number. 1D12-0321.
16 Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Skrbic, what is this document about, can you tell us?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And can we see the signature block.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a copy of what is
20 indubitably an authentic document because I recognise my signature. This
21 is a record on the transfer of duty. General Mico Grubor handed his duty
22 over to me, Petar Skrbic, pursuant to the order of the commander of the
23 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. What was this transfer of duty like, can you describe it in a few
2 A. The transfer of duty took place on the 14th of August, I believe,
3 in the presence of the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS. There's a
4 procedure in place.
5 Q. We will not be going into that.
6 A. Yes, no need for that. The commander congratulated me on the
7 position and wished Mico Grubor who retired good health. He told me that
8 there were impending tasks ahead of me and wished me good luck.
9 Q. Can you comment on this sentence:
10 "In the course of the transfer of duty," and this is paragraph 2,
11 "the recipient was acquainted with work-plans and most important legal
12 and other documents governing the work of organisational,
13 mobilisation ..." it's a bit odd this formulation, "organisational,
14 mobilisation, and personnel organs."
15 A. Let me help with that. This is called the sector for
16 organisational, mobilisation, and personnel-related affairs. My
17 predecessor, General Grubor, handed over to me all the documents related
18 to the work of the sector; otherwise, my signature certifying that I
19 received my duties would have been pointless.
20 Q. Can you also comment on the last paragraph:
21 "The person who handed over his duty introduced his successor
22 with the methodology of work in the Main Staff of the VRS and the manner
23 of work related to the workings of this sector ..."
24 What was it that Mr. Grubor told you on the occasion? What was
25 it that he briefed you on?
1 A. Between the 27th of July, 1994, and the 14th of August, the
2 transfer of duty had to be fully carried out. He informed me in that
3 period what had been done by that point and what was left still for me to
4 do in the future. He also acquainted me with the work methodology and
5 with the relationship between that sector and the commander of the Main
6 Staff and the way in which documentation had to be prepared for the
7 meeting of commanders.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document into
9 evidence, Your Honours. We have a draft translation here as well.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
11 MR. SAXON: Just one point of clarification. Can Mr. Lukic
12 confirm that this document, like the last one, originates from what is
13 Prosecution P1688; is that correct?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. I confirm that.
15 MR. SAXON: Okay.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's part and parcel of the personnel
18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, just a question. I'm not objecting to
19 the admission of the document. Perhaps this is a question for the
20 Court Officer. I'm just wondering whether it might be a more clear
21 practice for the record to add these additional documents to the existing
22 exhibit, the existing -- which presently has the number P1688 rather than
23 giving it a Defence exhibit number. But I am in the Court's hands on
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Court is in the hands of the parties,
1 actually, on that. You tell us what you want to do. Mr. Court --
2 Mr. Registrar, you might perhaps want to guide us.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, if these documents have not been
4 tendered or admitted in evidence by the OTP or admitted into evidence by
5 the Trial Chamber, then there is no need for them to be admitted under
6 the same exhibit number. It is basically up to the parties to decide how
7 to proceed. The Registry will support one or the other way. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand, Mr. Registrar's point. He
10 "If these documents have not been tendered or admitted in
11 evidence by the OTP or admitted into evidence by the Trial Chamber, then
12 there is no need for them to be admitted under the same ..."
13 Okay. So they can be given a new number. Okay.
14 Give them a new number, take them under your testimony.
15 Yes, sir.
16 MR. SAXON: I'm just thinking for the record down the road,
17 Your Honour, wouldn't it be simpler to have a single exhibit containing
18 all the documents, the subdocuments, that each party wants as part of
19 that exhibit, particularly when we're talking about complex and
20 voluminous exhibits or files such as a personnel file ? In the case of
21 Mr. Skrbic, his personnel file contains many, many pages. I don't know
22 what Mr. Lukic's position is.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You see --
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, I am fully
25 in agreement with Mr. Saxon on this score. The Prosecution has had
1 admitted a part of the personnel file of Mr. Skrbic as their exhibit.
2 This relates to his status mostly. When at one point we will be
3 analysing the case file and you will be examining it too, it would be
4 useful to have the personnel file in one exhibit rather than have to put
5 the various pieces together. We will have more of such situations as
6 this one. We will have portions of personnel files of certain
7 individuals presented here, other portions of which were already admitted
8 previously as Prosecution exhibits.
9 So perhaps in this way we would make it easier for us to examine
10 these exhibits at some point. Because you will have portions admitted as
11 Prosecution exhibits where they will try to show that he was part of the
12 personnel centre, then you will also have our exhibits which will be part
13 of his same file. Maybe this will be easier for all the parties involved
14 at some point when they go back to these exhibits. It's a suggestion of
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then there -- there should be a way of
17 alerting the Chamber which documents which form part of the same exhibit
18 were tendered by the Prosecution and which by the Defence, because
19 otherwise we -- I'm just thinking when we are writing the judgement, we
20 should be able to know what is Defence evidence and what is Prosecution
21 evidence. And if we're going to find an exhibit that is a P exhibit
22 containing Defence documents inside without us knowing that those
23 documents came from the Defence, we might treat them as Prosecution
24 documents and I don't -- all I'm saying is we need a workable way. And
25 the reason I was saying you put it in as a Defence exhibit to us because
1 I wanted to see what is Defence evidence and what is Prosecution
2 evidence, but at the same time I realise that if we're having voluminous
3 exhibits it's -- doesn't serve the purpose to duplicate what's already in
4 there. The question, however, here is in P1688 are these documents
5 there, these documents that you are showing us on the screen, are they
6 already there?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, what is -- the question now is
8 the way you regard these documents. These are documents P1688 in terms
9 of the B/C/S which has hundreds of pages. However, the Prosecution has
10 only asked to admit a dozen of the pages of this document. So I suppose
11 you would only have in English translated those portions that the
12 Prosecution has asked to have admitted into evidence.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: As you might be aware, the Chamber is illiterate
14 in B/C/S. So the hundreds of pages in B/C/S that are part of 1688 mean
15 absolutely nothing to the Chamber, only the English ones would mean
16 something. So your English ones will also mean something. The question
17 is when they come into P1688, the Chamber must be able to identify which
18 are tendered by the Defence and which are tendered by the Prosecution.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can't offer you a solution on that
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then -- okay. But then I'm asking you the
22 question: Are your English parts of P1688, the ones that you are
23 tendering today, are they already in the Prosecution's P1688?
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. They didn't want to have
25 portions of the document translated that they weren't interested in, and
1 I understand their position.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then if they are not already in P1688, I think
3 they might as well come in as a Defence exhibit. Because P1688 --
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Obviously this is something that
5 we'll have to --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: P1688 doesn't have them as we stand, as things
7 stand right now, in English; it has them in B/C/S and we are not going to
8 read the B/C/S.
9 MR. LUKIC: Right.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then -- the document then, if there is no
11 objection to it being admitted, it's been admitted. May it please be
12 given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
14 Exhibit D328.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, is this official translation or not or
17 shall we mark it for identification?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, it's a draft translation.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then it's marked for identification.
20 Is there a way, even though this is a Defence exhibit, in which
21 we can indicate its link to P1688? Is there a way?
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Mr. Registrar is very kindly going to make
24 a note in the transcript to link it, this one and the previous one.
25 Henceforth, if there are any such links, can we mention that so that he
1 can make that link. And if you don't mention it, he won't do it because
2 he won't know. Thank you.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. It will be
4 helpful to all of us.
5 Can we now call up the Defence 65 ter document 00483D.
6 Q. What we have on our screens is the decision on the establishment
7 organisation, formation, command and control of the Army of Serbian
8 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. At the time this document was made,
9 Mr. Skrbic, you were not a member of the VRS; but are you familiar with
10 the document?
11 A. Yes, I'm familiar with the document because my predecessor handed
12 over to -- handed it over to me.
13 Q. Can you explain in a few words what this is all about, us being
14 laymen in this field?
15 A. In military terms this document is an organisational order for
16 the setting up of the Army of Republika Srpska, in view of the fact that
17 the Army of Republika Srpska was set up on the 12th of May, 1992,
18 pursuant to a decision of the National Assembly of the Serbian Republic
19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn now to the next page.
21 I'm interested in item 4.
22 Can we look -- see item 4, can we go either up or down because we
23 don't see it in the B/C/S, item 4. I think it's further down in relation
24 to this portion. No, we need the next page, the bottom part.
25 Q. Item 4 reads as follows:
1 "The command and control of operational groups on the front shall
2 be carried out by the Main Staff of the Army of Serbian Republic of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina which is immediately subordinated to the Presidency of
4 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
5 To your knowledge, was this the way and the basis on which the
6 army units operated throughout the war in the territory of
8 A. For the sake of precision, let me say this: The formulations
9 used in item 4 were modified to a certain extent because the Army of
10 Republika Srpska, i.e., the Main Staff, was subordinated to the president
11 of Republika Srpska, and that's the modification involved. Other than
12 that, the superior/subordinate relationship has been reflected
13 accurately. The army was subordinated to the -- to a civilian organ, to
14 the Presidency, and at a later date to the president himself.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in both the
16 B/C/S and the English. The English text starts on the previous page in
18 Q. Let me ask you first who the author of the document is.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The bottom of the next page. Can we
20 have the bottom part of the page in the B/C/S to see who the author of
21 the document is.
22 Q. Can you tell us, General.
23 A. Mr. Lukic, the document was signed by the president of the
24 Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
25 Radovan Karadzic. The authors of the document were members of the Main
1 Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and the members of the Ministry of
2 Defence of Republika Srpska.
3 Q. Thank you. That's a very precise answer. I will read out the
4 portion which starts at the top of the page in the B/C/S, and Their
5 Honours can follow in English at the bottom.
6 "In order for the commands and units of the Army of the Serbian
7 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to be set up, immediately call on all
8 the Serbian people who are members of the Yugoslav People's Army to place
9 themselves at the disposal of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia
10 and Herzegovina with their entire equipment and weapons, either
11 individually or with their units."
12 We discussed this yesterday. Were you aware of the fact that at
13 the time there was issued a public proclamation by the authorities of
14 Republika Srpska, calling upon JNA members outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
15 Is this something that is consistent with your memory?
16 A. Yes. Of course this does not only relate to the territory of the
17 FRY, it also relates to the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
18 Q. Can you -- can we please have your comments on the next paragraph
19 as well.
20 "The commands of corps, brigades, regiments, and support units
21 shall be formed from members of the JNA who refuse or reject the decision
22 of the FRY Presidency to withdraw to the territory of the
23 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Equip and arm them with the equipment
24 and weapons that those who are now members of the JNA would place at the
25 disposal of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
1 Yesterday, we saw a document where the president -- where the
2 Presidency of Yugoslavia was mentioned, which has to do with this. And
3 can we have your comments on it. It was a closed session of the
4 Presidency. Or let me ask you this: If the Presidency of the FRY had
5 called on members of the JNA to return to the FRY, was this an obligation
6 on their part to do so or what were the consequences involved if they
7 refused to comply with this decision and stayed on in the JNA in
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, later to become the Army of Republika Srpska?
9 A. Well, this wouldn't really be the military terminology that would
10 be used where it is stated where they refused to comply with the decision
11 of the Presidency. Well, it does, however, reflect accurately the
12 situation as it existed. There were individuals who refused to comply
13 with this decision. There were also individuals among them who were not
14 native Bosnians, but they were serving in Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were
15 176 of them who hailed from Macedonia, Serbia, even Croatia and who
16 decided and said that they would stay there.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tender this document into evidence,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And this translation here is official?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
23 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given
24 an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
1 Exhibit D329. Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have another document
4 from the 65 ter list of the Defence -- just a second, please.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. General, I wanted to call a document on the screen, but I have
8 just been told that the translation is not yet available. Perhaps it
9 will be available tomorrow. Let me ask you, however, what is an order on
10 specifying jurisdiction and relationship between senior officers in the
11 Army of Republika Srpska? Do you know anything about that document?
12 A. The order that you're mentioning has to do with accurate
13 regulating of jurisdictions and powers when it comes to transferring,
14 promoting personnel, and so on. This order can only be issued by the
15 minister of defence, and this is something that the minister did at the
16 very beginning of the war. The Main Staff of the Army of Republika
17 Srpska continually complied with the decisions of and orders of the
18 minister of defence in these matters.
19 Q. Simply speaking, what does this order do? Who decides at which
20 level about what issues? Or perhaps you could illustrate this with an
22 A. This document specifies clearly what it is that the corps
23 commander does, brigade commander, commander of an independent regiment,
24 commander of the Main Staff of the VRS. And given that this is the area
25 that I'm most familiar with, this document also clearly specifies what
1 powers commander of the Army of Republika Srpska has when it comes to
2 promotions and other affairs. Let me just say this, that the commander
3 of the Army of Republika Srpska was authorised to promote officers from
4 the rank of major until the rank of lieutenant-colonel.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before Mr. Saxon stands up, you keep
6 referring to this document. What document are you referring to,
7 Mr. Skrbic, in your answer -- the question was:
8 "Simply speaking, what does this order do? Who decides at which
9 level about what issues? Or perhaps you could illustrate this with an
11 And your first -- your answer was:
12 "This document specifies ..."
13 I'm not sure what document you're referring to. You're asking --
14 you're being asked about the relationship and you're referring to a
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since I know exactly
17 to which this pertains, I apologise, I thought that you would know what I
18 know. I'm referring to the document specifying the powers, the
19 jurisdiction, which unfortunately you don't have on the screens so you
20 don't see the actual document. And this document on powers or
21 competencies regulates the relations and competencies from the level of
22 brigade up until the level of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
25 Mr. Saxon, you had something to say.
1 MR. SAXON: Two matters -- two matters, Your Honour. One is --
2 well, first of all, the Prosecution is feeling disadvantaged at this
3 moment because the witness is making long explanations, referring
4 apparently to a particular document which we don't have available.
5 Second of all, Mr. Lukic referred to document D329. I assume that is a
6 Defence exhibit. I don't have that on the Defence's list of exhibits
7 that they would be using with this witness.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, Mr. -- you --
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This must be an interpretation
10 mistake. I said document 00072D. That's the 65 ter number. And this
11 document is on the list.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Lukic -- this 00072D, when did you
13 refer to it?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's on our 65 ter list --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but which document is this? Mr. --
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is the document I was going to
17 show to the witness, but we are lacking the translation.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you never mentioned the number of that
19 document. You stopped short of mentioning the number. But let me tell
20 you -- let me take you back to what Mr. Saxon is talking about.
21 Mr. Saxon is talking about D329. That's the last exhibit which was
22 65 ter 00483D.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you say you don't have that on the 65 ter
25 exhibit list of the Defence?
1 MR. SAXON: [Microphone not activated]
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 MR. SAXON: I misunderstood and I withdraw that objection.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 The other issue you had raised was?
6 MR. SAXON: 72D, Your Honour. I do have a copy of the B/C/S;
7 however, I am still a bit at sea when we're having these long
8 explanations by General Skrbic. And perhaps --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because you don't have the English version?
10 MR. SAXON: Correct, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah --
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We sent this document to CLSS a long
13 time ago, and I have to apologise to everybody, especially to the
14 Prosecution, for not providing at least a draft translation. This is --
15 but since we are lacking the translation, I thought it was better to deal
16 with this document tomorrow when we have the translation.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's do that, deal with it tomorrow. Can you go
18 to the next document that has translation?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Certainly.
20 Q. Mr. Skrbic, have you heard of the 30th Personnel Centre of the
21 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us when did you hear of it for the first time?
24 A. Well, I couldn't pin-point the date, but I think it was in late
25 1994 or at around that time.
1 Q. Let me phrase my question in these terms. When on the 17th of
2 December, 1993, you went to the Army of Republika Srpska, was anything
3 mentioned to you at the time? Did you know at that time that it existed,
4 the 30th Personnel Centre, do you remember this?
5 A. Yes, I remember it well. I didn't know.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see P00734.
8 Q. This is the instructions on the way in which the special
9 personnel centres are to work and the programme of their activity dated
10 the 8th of December, 1993. Let me phrase the question like this: When
11 was the first time you saw the document?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Has he ever seen the document?
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you place that on the record?
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 Q. Sir, have you ever seen this document?
17 A. Could I see the signature, please.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the last page.
19 Q. I have a hard copy too if you want to see that.
20 A. Can we go back to the beginning, please.
21 Your Honours, I heard about this document in 1997 when I came to
22 the Army of Yugoslavia, and I saw it for the first time in 1998.
23 Q. When handing over duties to you, did Mr. Grubor tell you anything
24 about the existence of this document? Did he tell you that there was
25 such a document entitled "Instructions on the Functioning of Personnel
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, the witness has just told us that he
3 first heard about this document in 1997 and saw it for the first time in
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, he said that he saw it, and I
6 wanted to ask him whether he had heard about the existence of these
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen to the witness. He heard about it in 1997
9 for the first time. He saw it for the first time in 1998.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You are quite right. I apologise.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen to your witness.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. At the time when you arrived to the position of the assistant
14 commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, from that moment on and until or
15 while you were at the Army of Republika Srpska, did you contact anybody
16 from the 30th Personnel Centre?
17 A. Yes, I did contact them.
18 Q. Whom did you contact?
19 A. Can I mention names?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. With Colonel Gojko Mijic.
22 Q. To whom -- to which army did Gojko Mijic belong, he was a member
23 of which army?
24 A. Colonel Gojko Mijic was a member of the Army of Yugoslavia.
25 Q. Did you visit the premises of the 30th Personnel Centre while
1 still a member of the Army of Republika Srpska?
2 A. Very seldom, but I did go.
3 Q. Did you know at that time to whom the 30th Personnel Centre of
4 the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia was subordinated?
5 A. I certainly knew that. If necessary, I can tell you to whom it
6 was subordinated.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. The 30th Personnel Centre fell within the personnel
9 administration of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.
10 Q. And who at that time headed the personnel department of the
11 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia?
12 A. I don't know if the interpretation is completed. The chief of
13 the personnel administration at that time was General Dusan Zoric.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is this a good time for
15 our break?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: After the witness's answer, yes. Okay. We've got
17 the answer. Thank you so much.
18 We'll take a break and come back at ten past 12.00. Court
20 --- Recess taken at 11.38 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. You can go to the end of
23 the day.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 Q. I would like now to turn to another topic, namely, the structure
1 of the Main Staff of the VRS.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with the assistance of
3 Mr. Saxon, I have this organigram of the Main Staff of the Army of
4 Republika Srpska from June of 1995. A similar document was used in the
5 Popovic case when the witness testified about the structure of the Main
6 Staff. So I would suggest that a copy in English be given to the Bench
7 and then we also have a copy in the B/C/S and we can use hard copies to
8 go over this issue.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
10 MR. SAXON: Yes, that's fine, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] While proofing the witness I
13 realised - and Mr. Saxon can confirm this - that the witness has a
14 problem with the names and translations of some of the titles. So I will
15 be putting questions to the witness and then I think we can clarify this
16 this way.
17 Could Mr. Skrbic see a hard copy because the font is quite small.
18 Q. Mr. Skrbic, I will be putting questions to you so that we can
19 clarify the names of certain parts of the Main Staff, and then this
20 picture will be quite useful in understanding the structure of the Main
21 Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. I'm now talking about the period
22 of time when you arrived in the summer, in August, of 1994, until the end
23 of the war. My first question is this -- or perhaps I should just let
24 you comment on the organigram, to tell us who comprised the Main Staff of
25 the Army of Republika Srpska.
1 A. Since I can't see when interpretation ends, may I begin now?
2 Q. Please go ahead.
3 A. Commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska is
4 indicated correctly. Chief of the sector for operative and staff affairs
5 is Lieutenant-General Milovanovic, Manojlo Milovanovic. Where it says
6 "staff" on the left side of this organigram --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Skrbic, you're saying Mr. Milovanovic
8 is chief of the sector for operative and staff affairs?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But he's given here as chief of the Main Staff.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, his exact title is as
12 I have told you, chief of the sector for operative and staff affairs, and
13 at the same time deputy commander.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, is your organigram describing the
15 titles correctly?
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In proofing Mr. Skrbic had some
17 observations to certain titles in B/C/S. This is a document produced by
18 the OTP in another case. So this document in the B/C/S also reads "chief
19 of the Main Staff." And when I asked Mr. Skrbic about this, he said that
20 in the establishment terms of the Army of Republika Srpska
21 General Milovanovic was as he has just told us, deputy commander and at
22 the same time chief of the sector, and so on.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, this may have been a Prosecution
24 document in another case. You have adopted it as your exhibit and it
25 does not speak to what your witness is saying. So -- okay, but we accept
1 that explanation, but just note that your document doesn't speak to what
2 your -- at least you should have amended it to suit your purposes.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, since
4 Mr. Skrbic has certain reservations when it comes to some titles, I will
5 not tender this into evidence. I simply want you to follow his evidence
6 and see the relations as indicated in organigram. As for any
7 discrepancies between what is in the document and what Mr. Skrbic says, I
8 won't rely on that at all. I simply want him to give evidence about the
9 Main Staff and for you to be able to see how that looks -- how that
10 structure looks on paper.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You can continue, Mr. Skrbic. How was the Main Staff divided,
14 into which parts?
15 A. I want to give you the exact terms when it comes to the structure
16 of the Main Staff, and this is why I made the correction I made about the
17 chief of the Main Staff. Now I will continue. In this entire horizontal
18 line we shouldn't have any departments. There were no departments.
19 There were sectors. But let us now move to this area where it says
20 "General Miletic." His name was not Radovan, his name was Radivoje, and
21 it was administration for operations and training. I don't know --
22 Q. So as not to spend too much time with the document, just give us
23 in general terms.
24 A. Well, in general terms there should be no departments, rather,
25 there should be sectors, sector administration for air force and
1 anti-aircraft defence. Then we should have a sector for security and
2 intelligence, sector for religious and morale affairs, sector for
3 reinforcement and personnel affairs, logistical sector or sector for
4 logistics, and administration for planning, development, and finance.
5 These are the exact terms.
6 Q. At the head of these sectors and administrations, who was
7 appointed to these positions in establishment terms? What was the name
8 for the person heading a sector?
9 A. I have understood your question, Mr. Lukic. I'm just waiting for
10 interpretation. I'm not sure when it ends. At the head of all sectors
11 and independent administrations within the Main Staff of the VRS, there
12 were assistant commanders of the commander of the Main Staff of VRS who
13 were at the same time chiefs of those sectors.
14 Q. We have already heard some evidence here. There was a witness
15 before you testifying about your sector and what it comprised.
16 Therefore, would you please tell us now about the sector for logistics.
17 What did it comprise? What did that sector have under it? Who headed
18 that sector, tell us first?
19 A. Sector for logistics was headed by General Djukic. That sector
20 comprised the largest number of administrations and departments,
21 including quartermaster service, traffic service, technical service, and
22 medical corps.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand you to say that the sector
24 mentioned here as sector for rear services is actually the sector for
1 MR. LUKIC: That's right, Your Honour.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Where was the headquarters of the Main Staff of
3 VRS located, where was its seat?
4 A. I will now give you a very specific military terms. The main
5 command post of the Main Staff of the VRS was in Crna Rijeka. As for the
6 logistics command post of the Main Staff was in the Han Pijesak
7 settlement. Crna Rijeka, where the main command post was, was some 20
8 kilometres away from Han Pijesak. As for the logistics or rear command
9 post, General Djukic who headed that sector, he was located there
10 together with all of his services as well as General Skrbic, myself, and
11 all of my services. So all of us were located in that location. All
12 other parts of the Main Staff were located at Crna Rijeka.
13 Q. In addition to these sectors and independent administrations, did
14 the Main Staff of the VRS have some other additional organs of services?
15 A. Yes, it did. The Main Staff had independent units of the Main
16 Staff which were the communications regiment, 67th Communications
17 Regiment; 63rd Defence Protection Motorised Regiment; then the hospital
18 of the Main Staff which was located at Sokolac; military medical centre
19 of the Main Staff which was located in Banja Luka; centre for automatic
20 processing of data, also located in Banja Luka; accounting centre, which
21 again was in Banja Luka; and if necessary, I can also give you some
22 additional services that existed.
23 Q. No. For the needs of this trial I'm only interested in another
24 organisational unit which is logistics bases. Do you know whether there
25 were any logistics bases in the VRS; and if so, to whom they were
1 subordinated in the chain of command?
2 A. Yes, there were four logistical bases located in Banja Luka,
3 Bileca, Bijeljina, and Sokolac. They were subordinated directly to the
4 commander of the Main Staff of the VRS; and as for specialised affairs,
5 they came under the chief of the sector for logistics.
6 Q. Thank you. Was there a collegium or some other collective body
7 which met within the Main Staff?
8 A. Yes, there was a collegium. I apologise if I'm rushing. I don't
9 see the transcript, so please warn me to slow down if necessary.
10 Q. No, no, that's fine.
11 A. So the question was about the collegium. The commander of the
12 Main Staff had two types of collegiums: The inner collegium which
13 comprised his assistants and the expanded collegium which in addition to
14 his assistants also included commanders of all corps and commanders of
15 logistics bases.
16 Q. With another witness we saw names of certain corps, and I'm sure
17 that the Trial Chamber's already familiar with some of the names
18 indicated here. Let me just ask you this: Who headed the independent
19 administration for development and finances during the war?
20 A. The exact name of the administration is administration for
21 planning, development, and finances, and it was headed by
22 General Stevan Tomic.
23 Q. You've already said about Gvero, that he was the head of
24 administration for security intelligence. Can you tell us who was the
25 head of the administration for air force and anti-aircraft defence?
1 A. This administration was headed by General Jovo Maric.
2 Q. This structure of the Main Staff that you've just discussed, did
3 it change during the war? And I mean in the period leading to the Dayton
5 A. No, it did not change.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did I hear you well that you're saying -- where is
8 that now? Yeah. Page 42, line 14, you're saying:
9 "You've already said about Gvero, that he was the head of
10 administration for security intelligence."
11 What is it you were saying?
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. I said that we know already what
13 position was held by Mr. Gvero and we know who held positions in the
14 intelligence administration from previous testimonies. So that's why I
15 wanted to skip that.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Whenever I want to speed things up, I
18 seem to complicate them further.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then we should take it slowly.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We no longer need the document. It
21 can be taken off the ELMO so that the witness can follow the transcript
22 of his testimony. I do not wish to tender the document. I merely wanted
23 Their Honours to follow the witness 's testimony more easily.
24 Now that we're still on these structural issues, I will be
25 calling up a document which is not on the 65 ter list but which I will
1 ask that it be tendered -- that it be admitted. It was marked as dock
2 ID 1D12-0187. And I'll call it the working or operations map of the Army
3 of Republika Srpska. It's not contained on our 65 ter list, as I said,
4 Your Honours. I found about this document when for the first time I
5 talked to Mr. Skrbic a month and a half ago, when we had a proofing
6 session after a long break, he referred to this document that was shown
7 to him during a proofing session for his testimony in the Popovic case.
8 I found that the document was used in open session in that case, and on
9 the 12th of April earlier this year I sent the document to the OTP and I
10 notified Mr. Saxon about my intention to use it. That's the first
11 important thing that I want to mention about this document.
12 The second point is that the document has 104 pages. It is very
13 voluminous. In the Popovic case, only in the first seven pages of the
14 document were translated into English. I told -- or rather, it's a list,
15 in fact. You will see what sort of information is contained in that
16 list, and I believe that once you do you will share my view that the
17 entire document should be translated because the contents are of
18 paramount importance for this trial. I wanted to see with Mr. Saxon if
19 he agrees whether we can use the document with this witness, and if we
20 could agree for the document to be sent to the CLSS and at a later stage
21 in due time have it translated in its entirety.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, first of all you'll notice that I'm not
24 standing up to address the Chamber, and I am not being disrespectful but
25 simply a few minutes ago I began to have some difficulty with my back and
1 it would probably take me several minutes right now to stand up and
2 address you. So in the interests of saving time, with your leave, I will
3 address you from this sitting position.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you've taken the leave without being granted
5 it yet, Mr. Saxon, so carry on.
6 MR. SAXON: I have taken the leave, Your Honour, but I felt I
7 needed to do that.
8 Your Honour, I would simply like to ask Mr. Lukic whether he can
9 confirm precisely when the Defence received this document. It's my
10 understanding that at least a portion of this document would have been
11 provided to the Defence on the 31st of December last year as part of the
12 Prosecution's disclosure of materials that were used with General Skrbic
13 during his prior testimony in the case of Popovic et al., and so I'd like
14 some more clarification, please, from Mr. Lukic on the establishment of
15 good cause for not having placed this document on the Defence 65 ter
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document, a part of which,
19 several pages of which we received from the OTP as Mr. Saxon said in
20 December of last year, did not constitute a significant document for us
21 until we realised the gist of it with Mr. Skrbic, and that was only at
22 the point when Mr. Skrbic came to The Hague and when I started my
23 proofing session with him. This was on the 10th of April, I believe.
24 The very next day, as soon as I realised the point of the document, its
25 importance, and as soon as I got hold of it from the database of the file
1 in the Popovic case, I informed Mr. Saxon about it. It took someone to
2 show the document to me - and this was Mr. Skrbic - to indicate the
3 information contained in the document and the significance of it.
4 When Mr. Skrbic explained to me what sort of information can be
5 found there, I immediately notified Mr. Saxon and told him that I wanted
6 to use the document with the witness. The document contains names and
7 formations of all the officers of the Army of Republika Srpska, and I
8 mean active service officers; the date of their entry into duty into
9 duty; and the name of the person who assigned them there. And it's not
10 easy to comprehend the information in the document unless someone is
11 there who can explain it for you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't stand up. Carry on.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, briefly, the Prosecution does not
14 believe that the Defence has established good cause for not placing this
15 document on its Rule 65 ter list. Its Rule 65 ter list was due nearly a
16 month after the Defence received a portion of this document. It could
17 have evaluated the importance of the document at the end of December; the
18 Defence did not do that and it has not -- Mr. Lukic has not provided a
19 basis for adding it to the 65 ter list today.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order for me to
21 respond to this, you would need to have the document in front of you.
22 This is my answer: The document does not have a title. I received
23 several pages of the document from the Prosecution. In order for you to
24 see what this is about, you would need to see the document on the screen
25 and then you will decide whether I acted with due diligence or not. I
1 acted as soon as I became aware of the contents of the document, and this
2 was made possible only through my conversation with the person who knew
3 something about it. And the moment I realised this, I got in touch with
4 Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but the Defence received
6 about half of this document from the Prosecution in March of 2007 because
7 about half of this document was Prosecution 65 ter exhibit 5600, which
8 the Prosecution eventually chose not to tender. So the Defence was
9 clearly on notice of -- about the information in about half of this
10 document several years ago.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is a new fact, Mr. Lukic. It's not just
12 December last year. It's about 2007 that you are supposed to have become
13 aware of this document.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I stand by my earlier submissions,
15 i.e., that the document does not have a title and it seems to contain an
16 incomprehensible sort of list. Of course, if you do not see this as a
17 justification for me to have realised the importance of this document
18 only this late, then I am in your hands. But in view of the vagueness of
19 this document on the face of it, the difficulty to comprehend it, you
20 also have to keep in mind that the document did not have any sort of
21 markings, any sort of indicators, and if the document was indeed
22 disclosed as early as that - and I don't have reason to doubt what
23 Mr. Saxon says - still, we were not unable [as interpreted] to grasp the
24 importance of the document. If you think that we acted without due
25 diligence, I suggest that you first look at the document and see all the
1 hallmarks it bears and see how difficult it is to glean from it the
2 actual value it might have.
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, just a point of clarification. On
4 e-court Prosecution's 65 ter number 5600, the document is described as
5 "extract from VRS Main Staff personnel employment records." So I don't
6 agree with Mr. Lukic's submission that it was so hard to understand at
7 first blush what information might be in this document.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I wanted to ask from Mr. Lukic is whether
9 that it's known -- I understand that you say there is no title. But is
10 there no narration of what the document is about in the document itself?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document contains a list --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, you're not answering my question. My question
13 is: Is there no narration of what the document is about, a cover sheet
14 to the document that says: This document is this, it deals with this
16 Then do you disagree with Mr. Saxon that the e-court description
17 by the Prosecution of the document is that this is a list of personnel
18 staff of the VRS or something like that? Surely that heading should have
19 given an idea?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] One of the Prosecution cases and one
21 of the allegations in the indictment is that Mr. Perisic continued the
22 practice of deploying VJ officers to the VRS and the Army of the Serbian
23 Krajina. I think that based on such an indictment it is important for
24 Their Honours to have the information as to when the VJ officers went to
25 join the Army of Republika Srpska. Now, the information containing the
1 date on their entry into duty with the VRS is something that I was unable
2 to have until Mr. Skrbic told me about it. And this piece of information
3 is very important for the establishment of facts in this case. Nowhere
4 in this document is there a column with the heading "date" --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, it will help us to make better progress
6 if we can listen to one another and answer to the questions and issues
7 that are raised. We are not now talking about the importance of this
8 document to the case; we are talking about procedural steps that the
9 Defence should have taken to make sure that this document can be tendered
10 into evidence. Your learned colleague is disputing those procedural
11 steps. Now, yes the document might be important, but if the procedural
12 steps have not been taken it may not see the light of day within the
13 evidence of the case no matter how important it might be. So let's
14 listen to one another and deal with the issue at hand before we get to
15 the next one.
16 The point that Mr. Saxon is making is that the Prosecution gave a
17 title to this document on the e-court when they disclosed it to the
18 Defence in 2007.
19 Is that when it happened, sir, the title? Don't stand up. You
20 can take it that you can sit.
21 MR. SAXON: Thank you. Your Honour, I cannot tell you at this
22 moment when that description was placed on e-court. I can't -- I don't
23 believe that we had our e-court system up and running in 2007. I can't
24 make that attestment to --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right. If you can't make, then --
1 MR. SAXON: But before the case began, before this trial began,
2 we did have our documents on e-court with these descriptions,
3 Your Honour. Certainly by September 2008 this description would have
4 been there on e-court for P -- for Prosecution 65 ter number 5600, which
5 contains about half the pages in this document.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We now understand that we -- and we have
7 heard Mr. Lukic's explanation. Let me ask you, Mr. Saxon, Mr. Lukic says
8 he notified you around the 12th of April of his intention to use this
9 document once he became aware of its significance in the trial. What
10 prejudice, if any, does the Prosecution suffer by that late notification?
11 MR. SAXON: Well, one prejudice, Your Honour, is that the
12 Prosecution -- it was never clear to the Prosecution where this document
13 came from and how the Defence obtained it. And I have been trying to
14 ascertain -- clarify that with the Defence for the last two weeks.
15 Second of all, Your Honour, there is, as far as I'm aware, there is no
16 English translation of this document. So the Prosecution is unable to
17 study the specific contents of it. So with all this uncertainty,
18 Your Honour, I submit there is prejudice to the Prosecution, for the
19 Defence to be adding it to its 65 ter list at this time.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: My apologies.
23 I have very serious problems with the submissions of the parties.
24 You know, it's becoming a cat-and-mouse game. When you now say it was
25 never clear to the Prosecution where this document came from and how the
1 Defence obtained it, when you have just told us that you disclosed it to
2 the Defence and you'd -- and that Mr. Registrar tells me that the
3 creation date of the document in e-court is the 6th of March, 2008 --
4 May, then I fail to understand you. You create the document, you give --
5 you disclose to the Defence, the Defence sends it back to you, you now
6 query where they get it -- got it from and how the Defence obtained it.
7 MR. SAXON: May I interject, Your Honour, with respect?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
9 MR. SAXON: I meant to create no confusion. I meant to imply --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I understand your meaning. But the fact is
11 that confusion has been created.
12 MR. SAXON: I accept that, Your Honour. I take your point.
13 Your Honour, the confusion that I had was based on a number of
14 personal discussions and e-mail conversations between myself and the
15 Defence over the last two weeks as to why -- as to when the Defence first
16 received this document. And it's as a result of those discussions that I
17 finally went back and -- to our own -- to the Prosecution's own -- own
18 disclosure records and checked when the Defence would have received a
19 portion of this document which was in -- from -- it received a portion of
20 this document as part of the Prosecution's 65 ter list in 2007. It
21 received another portion during the disclosure of materials related to
22 the testimony of this witness in late December of last year.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, here's my point: My point is you created the
24 document as far back as 2007, let us say, probably earlier than that.
25 Okay. You disclosed it to the Defence. The Defence discloses back to
1 you. Even if disclosing it on the 12th of April was too late for proper
2 notice, this is a document you have had since 2007. This is a document
3 that you have gone through and you prepared your Prosecution case. This
4 is a document that you should therefore have gone through and be having
5 knowledge of. What prejudice can you suffer?
6 I mean, if we just look at the real facts, let alone the
7 technicalities of who did what at what stage, you have had this document
8 at least at the earliest in 2007.
9 MR. SAXON: The only -- the only remaining prejudice,
10 Your Honour, is not knowing that this document was going to be part of
11 the Defence case until this --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. But until the 12th of April.
13 MR. SAXON: Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I'm saying on the 12th of April your colleague
15 gives you notification of his intention to use the document, a document
16 that you have had since 2007. And the question still remains: What
17 prejudice, if any, does the Prosecution suffer?
18 The question of disclosure is a question of notice --
19 MR. SAXON: I stand --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's just notice.
21 MR. SAXON: I am taking your point, Your Honour, and I'm in your
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're in my hands?
24 You may use the document.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 I would like to give the following number to this document and
2 that's 03332D, and I would like to call up page 1 of this document. We
3 have it in e-court --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
5 Am I now getting lost? I thought we are on ID 120187? Now
6 you're coming up with a new number?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. This is the 65 ter number that I
8 will give to it now because it's not on our list, and of course the
9 number by which it can be found in e-court is 1D12 --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: My apologies --
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- and we already have the English
12 version on the screen. So 1D12-0132D -- no, the page that I want on the
13 screen is the other one.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's take it one step at a document. The name of
15 the document now is going to be 03332D. Is that it?
16 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hmm.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you're saying -- what page do you want?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] These are the corresponding pages on
21 the screen. It's 1D12-0295, that's the B/C/S page in e-court, and the
22 corresponding page in English.
23 Q. Mr. Skrbic, what is this document about?
24 A. The copy that I'm seeing here is called the working map of the
25 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. I also had a copy of it and
1 I used it to monitor the situation and the activities of certain
2 individuals in the service. It contains - and can you please zoom in the
3 English translation. I should like to be able to see if the columns
4 tally in the two versions. Where it says "establishment" --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just interrupt you, Mr. Skrbic, are you able
6 to read the B/C/S on that screen?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up near the top it says the "Main
8 Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska" and the same is written in the
9 English translation.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The small print inside the body of the document,
11 are you able to read it? That's my question.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If you are able to read it, fine.
14 If we could zoom in a little bit on the English side. Thank you.
15 You may proceed. I'm sorry for the interruption.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So it says "formation" in capital
17 letters in Serbian, that's to say "establishment." This portion of the
18 document contains elements of the establishment of all the units, and
19 these are elements that do not change, from the Main Staff down. The
20 next column, if you could please zoom in on the Serbian version, although
21 I think that's where it says "last name."
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Perhaps it would be a good idea to hand a hard copy to
24 Mr. Skrbic. I think it's fine on the screen now as well, Mr. Skrbic.
25 A. Yes. It is quite visible, but I can't see the entire column so
1 I'll use the hard copy that you've handed me now.
2 The next column, the one next to "establishment" says "family
3 name, first name, father's name." In that column you will see that this
4 is the sort of information that is entered and these of course are
5 changeable sort of elements, elements that will change. The next column
6 says "rank." The acronym "VES" stands for military occupational
7 speciality, and acronym "PG" stands for salary level, and actual
8 information of course will be entered into this column as well.
9 The next column is entitled "Pursuant to Whose Order the
10 Appointment is Made." Data is entered into this column that will have
11 originated from the order or the decision pursuant to which the
12 individual has been appointed to a given post. The next column is
13 entitled "unit/institution" with which the individual is listed, and the
14 column contains information about the military post and the establishment
15 rank under which the individual is listed.
16 The next column is entitled "remarks," so that's the way it could
17 be interpreted into English, as "remarks." And in fact what is entered
18 into this column is the information or the date of entry into duty of
19 that particular individual.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it possible to keep shifting so that we keep
21 seeing these columns? Thank you so much.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Skrbic, can you now read for us what the document states for
24 Ratko Mladic, for General Ratko Mladic? What sort of information is
25 indicated there?
1 A. Let's take it in proper order from the left to the right side.
2 First of all, it is stated that it's the Main Staff of the Army of
3 Republika Srpska. That's the establishment rank. Next it says
4 "commander." Next it says "colonel-general." Number 31099 stands for
5 the military occupational speciality, and there is also the salary group
6 or level which is 02. And let me repeat, these are standing elements,
7 elements that are permanent. What follows next is information that will
8 change from individual to individual or proper names. In other words,
9 since we are with the commander it is stated that Mladic, Ratko, son of
10 Nedjo, was appointed to this particular post whose rank at the time was
11 lieutenant-general --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Colonel-general.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the next column it is stated
14 that his appointment was effected pursuant to a decree of the president
15 of Republika Srpska from 1992 in the military post 7572 at the Main
16 Staff. His duty commenced on the 20th of May, 1992.
17 However, in my view, Your Honour, the -- there is a mistake in
18 the column listing his rank because his rank at the time was not one of
19 colonel-general but one of lieutenant-general, and I can tell you that
20 for a fact.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Thank you so much.
22 Did you say, sir, under the column showing "rank VES PG BOD," you
23 said 31099 signifies the military speciality, something like that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And two columns to the right where it talks of
1 personal rank VES, you said also VES signifies military speciality?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: But in this column the military speciality is
4 signified by the figure 31180 and not 31099. What is the difference?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The difference lies in the fact
6 that the establishment requires the VES of 31099, which means that the
7 individual concerned has graduated from the highest-level military
8 schools. And as for this other number, I can't really recall at this
9 time what it stands for. But this is the actual VES of the gentleman
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: 31099?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and that I know what it stands
13 for. 31 means that it's a VES of an officer. And 099 means that it --
14 he must have graduated from the highest-level military schools in order
15 for him to be appointed.
16 Now, as for 31180, I can't recall what that stands for because I
17 do know that Mr. Mladic has graduated from the highest-level military
18 schools and that's why he should probably have as his VES number 31099
19 because he had graduated from the School of National Defence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the war.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. In order to make sure that everything is clear, let us look at
24 your position.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see page 1D12-0310. We have
1 a draft translation which we did in proofing. I think you will be able
2 to follow, Your Honours. You will be able to follow the evidence of
3 Mr. Skrbic because the information in Serbian is self-explanatory in that
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document doesn't give us the VES of
6 Mr. Skrbic nor the PG of his -- nor his PG, nor his rank.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You will see the B/C/S version,
8 Your Honours. I think that everything will become clear so that you can
9 follow his evidence, but of course we will prepare the translation.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And while we're waiting to see, was there -- the
11 translation to ...
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was the previous page which gave the translation
14 about Ratko Mladic, is that official translation or draft translation?
15 MR. LUKIC: That is official translation.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: This one is draft?
17 MR. LUKIC: That's right.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
19 MR. LUKIC: I think only first seven pages of the documents were
20 official translated.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 20 in the electronic version,
23 please. Could we zoom in to the middle portion, please, in the B/C/S.
24 It's upside down.
25 Q. Mr. Skrbic, the Chamber does not have the entire version in
1 English, so please tell us this portion where it says "sector for
2 organisational, mobilisation, and personnel affairs," what does it say
4 A. So I'm reading from left to right. The first three columns
5 contain permanent establishment elements which are required for this
6 position, which means sector for organisational, mobilisation, and
7 personnel affairs. The second column defines the name of the duty,
8 position. Assistant commander for organisational, mobilisation, and
9 personnel affairs. Then the next column is the establishment rank, which
10 is major-general. Underneath we see the VES, which again indicates that
11 this person must graduate from the School for National Defence. 05 is
12 the PG, is the salary level. Then in the next column you see from top to
13 bottom that this position was occupied by Stevo -- by Mico Grubor, son of
14 Stevo, following which Petar Skrbic, son of Branko, came to this
16 Could you please move to the left.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we are at the left and you are still
18 thinking, I have a few questions --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't -- you misunderstood me.
20 To the left on the screen.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
22 Can we stay here in the meantime for the purposes of my question.
23 Under the first column, sector for organisational, mobilisation, and
24 personnel affairs, there is a figure 110, what does it mean?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure what that means.
1 Perhaps it's some sort of a number which indicates which sector it is in
2 sequence of other sectors, but I'm not sure.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know what the figure 4500 means?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that figure, but I don't know
5 what it stands for, Your Honours. I can't remember all of these things.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let's go to the next column, there is a
7 figure 230039. Do you know what that means?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Uh-huh -- 230039. Can I see the
9 heading? Perhaps I can conclude based on the heading what this is about.
10 No, I can't make any conclusions.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then you can ask the screen to go where you
12 wanted it to go. Thank you so much.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
14 Now, Your Honours, I know what this is about so I can give you
15 very specific information. At the time when I was appointed, my rank was
16 that of a colonel, not major-general. My real VES is 31378, which means
17 that I have graduated from the school for anti-aircraft defence, rocket
18 department. And then this other number means that I graduated from
19 the -- another military school after the military academy. The next
20 column indicates that I was appointed by means of a decree of the
21 president of Republika Srpska, number 01-1585/94. The next column says
22 that I serve at the military post 7572, which stands for the Main Staff
23 of the VRS, that's its military post number. And then the next column
24 indicates that I was appointed on the 15th of August, 1994, that's the
25 date of entry into service for that position.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm struggling to find these numbers 01-1585/94.
2 I can see 7572. So I'm not quite sure where you were when you were
3 talking about that.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's the number of the presidential
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've got it. Thanks.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. General, there's a discrepancy that I have just seen, and it
10 pertains both to Mr. Mladic's data and your data. In both situations you
11 observed that the factual situation concerning the rank did not
12 correspond to what the rank was at the time of the appointment. My
13 question is: Was it possible that this information was entered later?
14 Because it says here that you were major-general and the same applied to
15 Mladic, and you said in relation to both of you that at the time of the
16 appointment neither of you had the rank indicated here. So do you know
17 about this without speculating?
18 A. I'm not speculating. I'm not speculating, Mr. Lukic. The data
19 processing people who receive this information, they get a whole bunch of
20 documents and there is a delay in entering. And when they know the
21 actual rank, then they enter the actual rank. So there is a discrepancy
22 here between the actual rank and the rank indicated here. As for other
23 columns, they reflect actual data. The data processing clerk simply
24 knew, knew the ranks that we held in real time.
25 Q. All right. So who enters data into this database?
1 A. The data is entered by computer specialists based on the
2 documents that are given to them.
3 Q. Another question. During our proofing session we went over this
4 document and you explained it to me. Do you know in this column where it
5 says on the basis of whose order the appointment was made, in relation to
6 the entire document whose orders were these, of which authorities, of
7 which state? So which state issued the orders appointing all of these
8 persons and in which army was it done?
9 A. All of these orders or decrees - and sometimes there were orders
10 issued and sometimes decrees - it is the president that issues decrees
11 and all other commanders issue orders. So all of this data is entered
12 exclusively on the basis of enactments of the Army of Republika Srpska
13 and the state of Republika Srpska when it comes to decrees because, as I
14 said, the decrees are issued by the president of the country.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we tender this
16 into evidence and MFI it. And I don't want to burden either the CLSS or
17 you, and I propose that I get in touch with CLSS to see what exactly
18 needs to be translated and I can co-ordinate this with Mr. Saxon to see
19 that only the bits that are important for this case are translated. But
20 so as not to waste any further time, I suggest that we mark this document
21 for identification as Defence exhibit.
22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I do have an objection to make, not to
23 the document per say, to the fact that I note at page 61, line 20,
24 Mr. Lukic begins his question saying:
25 "During our proofing session we went over this document and you
1 explained it to me."
2 I certainly would like to state for the record that I don't
3 believe in any proofing note we have received any explanation of this
4 document from the Defence.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, this is a completely different issue. What
6 bearing does it have on the tendering of this document into evidence?
7 MR. SAXON: I'm not objecting to the tendering of the document.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. So can we deal with the tendering of the
9 evidence --
10 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- of this document. And then you can raise your
12 problems with Mr. Lukic separately.
13 The document then is admitted into evidence and marked for
14 identification. May it please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be
16 Exhibit D330, marked for identification. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 Now, Mr. Saxon, do you want to pitch a fight with Mr. Lukic about
19 what he should and shouldn't have done during proofing or after proofing?
20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm searching in the Rules for an
21 appropriate Rule to cite and I'm not finding -- I'm not finding it. I
22 will raise this matter at a later time.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 MR. SAXON: If I can find better grounds.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the sake of the
3 transcript I have to comment on what Mr. Saxon has just said.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you --
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- and it has to do --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do that, can we just have it on record
7 that this document is MFI'd for further translations. Thank you.
8 You may proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Wishing to avoid any problems with
10 translation of the document, in my meeting with Mr. Saxon and Mr. Harmon
11 a week ago, I suggested to Mr. Saxon concerning this column where it says
12 pursuant to whose orders the appointment was made, meaning that it was
13 done only on the basis of enactments of the Army of Republika Srpska, I
14 indicated to Mr. Saxon a week ago what I had heard from Mr. Skrbic, and I
15 mentioned it to him wishing to avoid burdening the CLSS any further.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are you addressing?
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But that was my intention but I will
18 need to do it now.
19 Mr. Saxon has just said that he didn't know that in my proofing I
20 went over this with Mr. Skrbic, and this is why he's now against us
21 tendering this document into evidence. And what I'm claiming is that
22 Mr. Saxon was aware of the fact and that he was informed so during the
23 meeting we had with him and Mr. Harmon.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, in the interests of time, let's again
25 listen to one another.
1 Mr. Saxon has withdrawn this objection pending him finding the
2 relevant Rule that supports him in the Rules. So you will respond to him
3 at that time, not now. Okay. Thank you.
4 Carry on with the witness.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are forgiven.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move to a different topic.
8 Just a second, please.
9 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Skrbic, what were the competencies of your
10 sector? We're now moving to a completely different topic, to status
11 issues within the service, and I would like to go -- to refer to the
12 legal regulations. What are the competencies of your sector when it
13 comes to appointing certain persons to positions in the Army of Republika
14 Srpska? What do you do? What kind of information do you receive? And
15 what do you decide upon and how do you decide upon it?
16 A. The sector that I headed dealt with personnel, organisational,
17 and mobilisational issues. I do not want to tire down anyone listening
18 to me, so I will only speak about the main part of the work conducted by
19 my sector which were the personnel affairs. And this part of our work
20 contains the schooling, proposals for promotion, proposals for transfer,
21 and proposals for deployment and appointments of active and reserve
22 officers of the Army of Republika Srpska, based on the proposal of data
23 that we received from subordinate units which were corps commands.
24 Q. All right. Let us go subject by subject. Let us first deal with
25 appointments, appointments to positions. What do you do? Who makes the
1 proposal? What is then done? And who makes the final decision?
2 A. Appointments, promotions, and transfers were done almost
3 simultaneously. However, since you asked me about appointments, then
4 this is what I can say. We prepare documents and proposals for the
5 commander of the Main Staff on appointments of certain position --
6 certain persons to certain establishment positions, and we saw that this
7 was all defined in establishment terms. These appointment proposals are
8 debated at the collegium of the Main Staff, where all members of the Main
9 Staff can participate in the discussion. However, it is the commander of
10 the Main Staff that makes the final decision and informs everybody of it.
11 For example, Petar Petrovic will be appointed brigade commander.
12 Following that, we write up the order on appointment if it
13 involves a rank up to the level of colonel. When it comes to generals or
14 colonels promoted to establishment positions of a general, then we
15 prepare paperwork, take it to the president of the republic, a commander
16 of the Main Staff gives the explanation. If the president adopts that
17 explanation, then he issues a presidential decree; if not, then that
18 appointment is denied. When I said "president of the republic," I was
19 referring to president of Republika Srpska.
20 Q. In that decision-making on appointments, did anybody from the
21 Army of Yugoslavia participate in that process?
22 A. Nobody from the Army of Yugoslavia influenced this process at any
23 stage, either directly or indirectly.
24 Q. Did this process have anything to do with the 30th Personnel
25 Centre; and if so, what was it when it came to appointments?
1 A. The only link that existed was that a new, amended information
2 was provided by the Army of Republika Srpska to the 30th Personnel Centre
3 in order for that new information to be entered into records and in order
4 to regulate the entitlements that that person has based on that position
5 in terms of salary level, et cetera, et cetera.
6 Q. Let us take you as an example. You were assistant commander for
7 morale in the 2nd Krajina Corps, and then in August of 1994 you were
8 appointed assistant commander at the Main Staff. The change of the
9 establishment position, did it also entail a change in the salary level,
10 in the quotient based on which salary was calculated?
11 A. I can give you a very specific answer, because in the 2nd Krajina
12 Corps my salary level was 07. Once I transferred to the Main Staff, even
13 though I still had the same rank of colonel, my salary level was 05, even
14 though it's a lower number it actually means that I was entitled to
15 bigger benefits.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have 65 ter of Defence
18 00231D, could we call that document up, please.
19 While we're waiting for the English, this is a decree, a decree
20 of the president of the republic, of Republika Srpska, dated the 15th of
21 June, 1992, by way of which Bogdan Subotic is appointed to the Government
22 of Republika Srpska, according -- he's appointed minister of defence
23 according to the peace time and war time establishment.
24 Q. The Trial Chamber has already seen a number of such documents, so
25 I will not dwell on this, but when we spoke about competencies earlier
1 on, tell us who was competent for deciding to appoint persons to this
2 establishment position?
3 A. It is the president of Republika Srpska who has the power to do
4 that. Now, as to who proposed this person to this position, I don't know
5 that. Given that the minister of defence is a civilian organ, then
6 Mr. Subotic could not become employed there since he was in the military.
7 So in the Army of Republika Srpska the personnel of the --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry, Mr. Skrbic, the interpreter missed
10 something she would like you to repeat. She's been with you up to where
11 you said "given that the minister of defence is a civilian organ, then
12 Mr. Subotic could not become employed there since he was in the
13 military." Can you then continue from there?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to specify.
15 He could become employed at the Ministry of Defence, which is a civilian
16 organ, but he could not become employed as a civilian because he was in
17 the military. I hope the interpreter is following me well. Up until
18 that time in the army -- or rather, due to that time -- due to that, in
19 the Army of Republika Srpska there was a special department filled by
20 military persons. And whenever the Ministry of Defence had people
21 employed there who were in the military, they had to be appointed
22 pursuant to establishment terms. As a result of that, this decree is in
23 accordance with that principle even though General Subotic was appointed
24 to the Ministry of Defence which was a civilian organ.
25 I hope I was clear enough.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is the interpreters who had asked you to repeat
2 yourself. I hope you have been clear enough to them. I don't ...
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness was rather
4 clear. Now, to what extent all of us understand this is a different
5 matter. These are very, very narrow, professional, specialised concepts.
6 So, Your Honours, can we tender this into evidence?
7 MR. SAXON: No objection, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I wasn't sure whether you were saying: No,
9 I object, or whether -- okay. The document is admitted into evidence.
10 May it please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
12 Exhibit D331. Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now could we please see the Defence
14 Exhibit D118.
15 We will have to go into closed session.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session --
17 do you want closed session or do you want private session?
18 MR. LUKIC: No, private, private, Your Honour. Private.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 11677-11678 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Skrbic, I remind you once again of what I told you at the end
10 of the session yesterday, not to talk to anybody about the case until and
11 unless you are excused from further testifying.
12 We stand adjourned to tomorrow at, again, 9.00 in the morning,
13 the same courtroom. We hope we will not have the technical problems that
14 we had this morning and that we will start promptly at 9.00 tomorrow.
15 And have a good rest.
16 Court adjourned.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of
19 June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.