1 Monday, 5 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.
11 Could you we have the appearances, please, for the day starting
12 with the Prosecution.
13 MR. THOMAS: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
14 everybody in and around the courtroom. Carmela Javier and Barney Thomas
15 for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas.
17 And for the Defence.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning to all. Boris Zorko, Chad Mair,
19 Nadia Galinier, who is our new intern, Alex Fielding, Novak Lukic, and
20 Gregor Guy-Smith appearing on behalf of Mr. Perisic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would like to point out that
23 we have a lot of interference, a lot of buzzing in the headphones.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Interpreter. We'll try and -- is
25 there anything we can do to help?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Technical department should know, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 THE WITNESS: JUGOSLAV KODZOPELJIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir. You may be seated.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And good morning to you, sir.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 Mr. Guy-Smith, do I call on you?
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Initially, we have a
16 binder to present to the witness. Mr. Thomas has had an opportunity to
17 look at the binder prior to the proceedings beginning today.
18 Examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
19 Q. Good morning, sir.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Could you state your name for the record, please, and spell your
22 last name.
23 A. My name is Jugoslav Kodzopeljic. J-u-g-o-s-l-a-v, Jugoslav.
24 K-o-d-z-o-p-e-l-j-i-c, Kodzopeljic.
25 Q. Thank you. And how old are you, sir?
1 A. Sixty-nine.
2 Q. And where were you born?
3 A. I was born in Kljajic, in the -- in Republika Serbia -- in
4 Republic of Serbia.
5 Q. Are you -- are you presently working or are you retired?
6 A. I'm retired.
7 Q. And was there a period of time when you were working for the
8 military in the former Yugoslavia?
9 A. Yes. I spent my entire professional career in the army, in the
10 JNA and in the Army of Yugoslavia.
11 Q. And when did you retire, sir, from the army?
12 A. I retired in the year 2000.
13 Q. I'd like to spend some time on briefly going through your
14 military career. Could you tell us, apart from the educational part of
15 your time in the army, what was your first duty in the army and what year
16 was that?
17 A. I was the commander of a technical platoon in the communications
18 regiment of the command.
19 Q. And when you use the term "technical platoon," could you explain
20 to us what you mean by that, sir.
21 A. A technical platoon is a unit in which an officer has to perform
22 his duties as its commander and has two functions, that of supplying and
23 that of maintaining equipment.
24 Q. And how long did you keep that position?
25 A. I occupied that position for a period of three years.
1 Q. And what period of time are we talking about with regard to this
2 first duty? What years are we discussing here, sir?
3 A. From 1962 until 1965.
4 Q. Thereafter, what was your next assignment, sir?
5 A. I was then appointed as the chief of the transport department in
6 that very same unit, in that very same communications regiment.
7 Q. And for what period of time did you occupy that particular
9 A. I occupied that position for about one year.
10 Q. And thereafter, what was your next duty, sir?
11 A. I was then sent to the school of mechanics in Belgrade to pursue
12 my studies there.
13 Q. And I take it you pursued your studies for some period of time in
15 A. Yes. I graduated from the school of mechanical engineering in
16 Belgrade in 1968.
17 Q. After you graduated from the school of mechanical engineering in
18 Belgrade in 1968, what post did you obtain in the army?
19 A. I was transferred to the transport school in Titograd.
20 Q. How long were you there?
21 A. I was there until 1973.
22 Q. And in 1973, where did you go to next with -- in the context of
23 your career in the army?
24 A. In 1973, I was transferred to the technical department of the
25 then-Federal Secretariat for National Defence.
1 Q. And how long did you maintain your position in the technical
2 department of the - as you've put it - then-National Secretariat of
3 Federal Defence?
4 A. Yes, at the time it was the Federal Secretariat for
5 National Defence and later it was the Federal Ministry of Defence. I was
6 there until the end of my professional career.
7 Q. Before we go any further with regard to what your duties were in
8 the technical department, when did the position change? And by that I
9 mean, when did you change from being in the technical department of the
10 National Secretariat for Defence to the, as you've put it here,
11 secretariat for the -- I believe you said Ministry of Defence, but I
12 could be incorrect. What year was that?
13 A. I couldn't say exactly.
14 Q. Very well. With regard to your working in -- in the technical
15 department, what is the technical department? What are the duties and
16 functions of the technical department?
17 A. The technical department has two main functions, generally
18 speaking. It's responsible for all the equipment used by the land army,
19 and in the tactical sense it's also responsible for a certain amount of
20 equipment as is the case for all other tactical agents.
21 Q. And when you're referring to all of the equipment used by the
22 land army, I take it that you are, by making that statement, excluding
23 some aspects of the military.
24 A. Yes. Everything that is the tactical responsibility of the air
25 force and of the navy was not something that we were responsible for.
1 Q. Very well. And with regard to the issue of the statement you've
2 made here which is "in the tactical sense it's also responsible for a
3 certain amount of equipment," when you use the term "tactical," could you
4 explain to us what you mean by that -- by that term in a military sense?
5 A. Yes, I can, although it's a fairly broad area, but I'll try to
6 give you an answer very briefly.
7 As in the case of all other technical agents, for example, the
8 use of -- in the case of the use of tanks, you have to deal with armoured
9 vehicles. Well, in the case of my department, my department was
10 responsible for systems that provided technical supplies for the land
11 army, technical support for the land army. They provided electronic
12 systems for the entire army and machinery for the entire army, apart for
13 certain specific elements for the navy and for the air force.
14 Q. Now, you told us earlier that you served in both the JNA and in
15 the VJ. Could you tell us, when you began your service in the VJ or when
16 you stopped your service in the JNA, what occurred, if you could tell us.
17 A. I can't remember the year. As far as the technical department is
18 concerned, there were no changes with regard to its sphere of
19 responsibility. All the tasks that we previously carried out were tasks
20 that we continued to carry out in the Army of Yugoslavia.
21 Q. I understand what you've said there. Without referring to a
22 specific date at this time, can you tell us was there any particular
23 event or series of events that caused you to change from being in the JNA
24 to being in the VJ?
25 A. Well, it was the consequence of well-known events. Republics,
1 certain republics, seceded, became independent. The SRJ became an
2 independent entity.
3 Q. And when you say "certain republics seceded," could you identify
4 for us those republics that you're referring to when you say that certain
5 republics seceded.
6 A. Yes, the Republic of Slovenia, the Republic of Croatia, and the
7 Republic of Macedonia.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is meant by "SRJ"?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,
10 the FRY, F-R-Y.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH:
12 Q. Before the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, what was the nation
13 state that you were serving in the military called?
14 A. It was called the SFRJ.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. You're welcome.
17 Q. Before, as you've put it, secession of -- and I'm going to focus
18 now on Slovenia and Croatia. Before the secession of Slovenia and
19 Croatia, could you tell us what army was stationed in those republics?
20 A. There were armies in the Republic of Slovenia -- or, rather, in
21 all the republics. The 9th Army was in Slovenia. In Croatia there was
22 the 5th Army.
23 Q. And the 9th Army and the 5th Army, were armies that belonged to
24 what general army? What was the name of that specific army at that time?
25 A. It was an integral part of the army of the SFRJ.
1 Q. And during that period of time, when the armies in Slovenia and
2 Croatia were an integral part of the SFRJ, the military assets that
3 existed in those republics belonged to whom, if you know?
4 A. They belonged to the common army of the SFRJ.
5 Q. Now, those assets, and let's take for -- let's take Slovenia for
6 an example, those assets that belonged to the army of the SFRJ, are those
7 the kinds of assets that you're referring to when you discuss what your
8 duties were in terms of technical administration?
9 A. Yes, those were the assets concerned, among other things.
10 Q. Understood. And I take it that your answer would be the same
11 with regard to Croatia in terms of the assets that were in Croatia.
12 A. Absolutely.
13 Q. As you sit here today, do you recall whether or not the
14 JNA - which is how I'm going to designate the army for the former
15 republic of -- Federal Republic of Yugoslavia - left Slovenia at a
16 particular time after Slovenia's secession from the country, the SFRY?
17 A. Yes, I do remember that the JNA had withdrawn from Slovenia.
18 Q. And when it withdrew from Slovenia, what, if anything, did it
19 take with it, if you know?
20 A. Yes. The army took what it could take with it.
21 Q. And with regard to the balance of those materiels, do you know
22 what occurred to those materiels and assets? Were they sold? Were they
23 ceded over? Were they abandoned?
24 A. Those assets remained in the hands of the Slovenian defence
1 Q. And with regard to Croatia, what happened -- I should ask you the
2 same question with regard to Croatia. When the JNA withdrew from
3 Croatia, what did it do with its assets?
4 A. The situation is a little bit too complicated for me to explain,
5 but I would like to say that the units or forces of Croatia also seized
6 certain assets; first of all, those that -- well, the assets of the
7 Territorial Defence, and then when they could enlarge the blockade, they
8 took assets from JNA units. They also took what they could from JNA
10 Q. Now, I've been using the term in a very general sense here, that
11 being the term "assets." Could you describe with some specificity, if
12 possible, what the kinds of assets that we've been discussing involve?
13 A. Everything that is part of weapons and military equipment, all
14 the sort of mobile assets for units and institutions within the army, the
15 army of the JNA, of the SFRJ, all such assets that belong to that army.
16 So we had infantry weapons, artillery weapons, armoured equipment. And
17 then there were hospitals, rehabilitation centres, warehouses, depots.
18 These were all the assets that the army had at its disposal at the time.
19 Q. Understood. And at some point in time were you involved in
20 preparing a report concerning assets that were left in the two respective
21 republics that we've just discussed, Slovenia and Croatia?
22 A. I didn't directly participate in such an activity, but a colonel
23 from my technical department was a member of the commission that worked
24 on this and submitted such a report to the relevant authorities.
25 Q. And what was the commission that you've just mentioned called, if
1 you recall?
2 A. I think it was a commission for the division of assets and
3 liabilities, but I'm not a hundred per cent sure.
4 Q. And do you recall, as you sit here today, who that report was
5 submitted to? What was the purpose of that report?
6 A. The report was submitted to the international community. I can't
7 remember who was responsible for that project on behalf of the
8 international community at the time.
9 Q. Very well. We have some -- some documents that go further into
10 this particular report that we'll discuss momentarily. But at this point
11 I'd like to move on. We'll come back to this particular issue.
12 I know that we've in some senses jumped ahead it terms of -- in
13 terms of your career, but let me ask you this: Between the time that you
14 first became involved in the technical administration up until the time
15 of your retirement, did you always maintain the same position within the
16 technical administration, or did your positions change over time?
17 A. I started my work at the technical department from the lowest of
18 positions, and I ended up as the head of the administration. Initially I
19 was just a desk officer, then I was a senior officer, then I became the
20 head of division, then I became the deputy head of the technical
21 administration, and then in 1992 I became the head of the technical
22 service, and in 1993 the head of the technical administration.
23 Q. With regard to the technical service as opposed to the technical
24 administration, could you explain to us what the distinctions are in
25 terms of your duties between being the head of the technical service and
1 the head of the technical administration?
2 A. Yes. I can explain that. At one point, due to the downsizing of
3 the personnel and the state itself, the air force technical, the navy
4 technical, and the land technical services were pooled together, and at
5 that period I was the head of the technical service and at the same time
6 the deputy head of administration of the administration that was devised
7 in that manner in that period, which meant that it compiled three
8 services: air force, land, and navy.
9 Q. And with regard to the -- being the deputy head of the
10 administration, what were your duties above and beyond, or were -- did
11 you have any duties above and beyond those that you have discussed with
12 us thus far?
13 A. According to establishment, the chief of the first department is
14 at the same time the deputy head of the technical administration. There
15 are three departments in technical department in general. I was the head
16 of the first department and the deputy head of the technical
17 administration at the same time. So the deputy was not responsible for
18 all the duties assigned to the technical administration except in the
19 event when the head of the technical department is away or absent.
20 Q. And at some point in time, if I understand your testimony
21 correctly, you became the head of the entire technical administration?
22 A. Yes, that's right. That took place after these technical
23 administrations were separated. I'm talking about the air force and the
24 navy. I became the head of the technical department.
25 Q. And when you became the head of the technical department, who
1 were you subordinated to?
2 A. My superior officer was the assistant of the chief of
3 General Staff for logistics.
4 Q. And who was that?
5 A. At the time, that was General Milovanovic.
6 Q. And so we could focus in time, could you put a year on that, the
7 year that you became the head?
8 A. Yes. That was in 1993.
9 Q. Now, was your relationship to the Ministry of Defence -- let me
10 put the question to you in a different way.
11 Were you or were you not subordinated to the Ministry of Defence?
12 A. No. As the head of the technical administration, I was never
13 subordinated to the Ministry of Defence, nor was the logistics sector
14 subordinated to the ministry either.
15 Q. To your -- to your knowledge, was there a difference or was the
16 same structure in place before, and by that I mean under the SFRY, and
17 after, under the FRY, with regard to the manner in which the
18 Ministry of Defence and the army operated?
19 A. Yes. Changes were taking place. I can't remember when that
20 occurred, but the General Staff became subordinated to the
21 Ministry of Defence. However, in certain periods, the General Staff was
22 practically independent, as it were.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. This is to the best of my recollection after 25 or 30 years.
25 Q. Understood. And with regard to the -- with regard to the issue
1 of financing for the army, were you involved in any aspect at all of
2 planning for the financing or the budget of either - let me do this
3 first - for the JNA. Were you involved in any of the planning for the
4 budget for the JNA when you were working under the -- under the auspices
5 of the JNA?
6 A. I would kindly ask that your volume be increased -- or, rather,
7 the volume of the translation. I can't hear it very well.
8 Yes. It's perfect now. Thank you.
9 My administration, in all stages of preparing the budget,
10 participated in compliance with the scope of our responsibilities; just
11 like any other technical agent or strategical agent, the technical
12 administration had to prepare an annual plan, to carry out analysis, and
13 submit relevant reports.
14 Q. And in terms of the plan that you were involved in, what were
15 the - and let me use this word to see -- or phrase to see if it
16 works - what were the components parts that you considered in drawing up
17 your plan?
18 A. If I understood your question correctly, I can tell you that all
19 army units and institutions of the SFRY and, at later period, FRY, who
20 were integral part of the army and for which we were responsible in terms
21 of providing technical support, all of this was within the scope of
22 responsibilities of our planning duties.
23 I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, if that is what you
24 had referred to.
25 Q. You certainly did understand me in the most general of terms,
1 because my question was put in the most general of terms. Let me
2 introduce both a concept and a reality to you and see where we go from
4 Dealing with the issue of logistics, could you first of all tell
5 the Chamber what logistics entail, when that term is used.
6 A. We didn't use the term "logistics." Our military system didn't
7 function on the principles of logistics. We called that "rear support,"
8 and that meant providing technical support, transport support, medical
9 support, civil engineering and construction support, and veterinary
10 support. I believe I didn't omit any of the components.
11 Q. You mentioned that you didn't use the term "logistics" but you,
12 rather, used the term "rear support." I'd like to go back in time with
13 you just for a moment because you -- it seems that you're familiar with
14 the term of "logistics."
15 Was there a point of time in your career where you received any
16 kind of training, specialised training, abroad?
17 A. I said that I went through all positions in the technical
18 administration. At one point, I was the head of the department for
19 development. And in that period I had a honour and a privilege to pay
20 visits to certain armies in different countries, to become familiarised
21 with their systems of technical support, i.e., logistics. I went to
22 England, Germany, Russia, Greece, the Ukraine, and maybe some other
23 countries where I learned about what they -- their concept of the job
24 that we did was. And thanks to my predecessor, Admiral Praprotnik, who
25 had been the head of the technical administration, we both studied the
1 logistic systems, and at one point we even initiated the introduction of
2 a logistic system rather than the rear support system. And it all went
3 on until these events that we know took place and until my retirement.
4 Our idea was to have such an organisation that would pursue the
5 logistical logic, so to speak, of providing support to the army.
6 Naturally, since I had the honour of having a Ph.D. and becoming
7 a university professor, whatever I learned abroad I had an opportunity to
8 teach in our schools and academies and in the course of conducting
9 various courses all across the country.
10 Q. If I might, with regard to what you've just told us, did you
11 learn about the NATO system of logistical support?
12 A. Yes. That was precisely the purpose of my visit with
13 General Sljivic to England and Germany. Actually a whole group of us
14 went there.
15 Q. Let me ask you this. This maybe self-evident, but was the SFRY
16 part of NATO?
17 A. No. We have never been part of NATO.
18 Q. Was the SFRY part of the Warsaw Pact?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Was there a group of nations that you can identify that you were
21 part of? And by this I'm asking whether you were a part of a group of
22 non-aligned nations during the period of time that you were in the
23 military with the SFRY.
24 A. Yes. My country was both a member and also part of the
25 leadership of the non-aligned movements.
1 Q. And when the SFRY became the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, I
2 take it that your answer would remain the same; and by that I mean that
3 you were -- your country was neither a member of NATO, nor was it a
4 member of the Warsaw Pact.
5 A. Until I retired, we were neither a member of the NATO nor a
6 member of the Warsaw Pact.
7 Q. Just a brief digression. Are you aware of the Partnership for
8 Peace programme which involves non-aligned nations becoming part of NATO?
9 A. Look, the position of the head of the technical administration
10 did not involve such matters. I can only tell you this as an ordinary
12 Q. Well, we'll get to you being an ordinary citizen later on in your
13 testimony, perhaps.
14 I want to return now, just for a moment, because I think we can
15 at this time. If you would go to your binder, and you will see in your
16 binder there are two sections: There's -- one section has an orange tab,
17 a large tab divider, and then there's another section that has a green
18 divider. And if you would go to the part of your binder that has the
19 green divider in it.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could call up on the screen D609.
21 Q. So if you would go to the -- I'm sorry. I do this all the time.
22 It's 609D.
23 If you would go to the -- flip your -- flip your binder to the
24 green section.
25 And perhaps the usher could be of some assistance to you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And, Mr. Thomas, you do confirm that you have seen
2 that binder?
3 MR. THOMAS: I have seen the binder, sir, thank you.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe I mentioned that at the beginning. I
5 thought that he had confirmed it. I --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, he didn't confirm.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh, I apologise, Your Honour. I should have
8 waited for more than a nod from Mr. Thomas.
9 Q. If you could -- I don't know if you're on 609D. Do you see that
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. We were earlier discussing --
13 There we go. Now it's in English as well.
14 We were earlier discussing the report, and do you recognise this
15 as being the part or the face page of the report concerning assets with
16 regard to Croatia?
17 A. Yes, that's part of the report compiled by the commission that I
18 mentioned earlier in which a colonel from my administration took part.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I seek its admission.
21 MR. THOMAS: Your Honour, I was provided with a list of documents
22 only last night --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll hold off and give you some --
24 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll hold off and give you some more time.
1 Q. I'm going to show you --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have this MFI'd at this time.
3 MR. THOMAS: It's just I haven't seen it, sir, so I will have to
4 review the document before I can take any position on its admission.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to see a little more than just the
6 face of the report too.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh. Well, please. If we turn to the next page.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
9 please be given an exhibit number, and it will be marked for
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 375, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH:
14 Q. I'm going to show you now a series of documents and you just take
15 a look at them. Well, it's going to be probably easier to do it another
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we now have up on the screen 1293D. 1293D.
18 And for purposes of ease, Mr. Registrar, I will be calling
19 thereafter 1294, 1295, and 1296.
20 Q. I'd just like you to take a look at this document, if you could.
21 Do you recognise this document?
22 A. Yes, for the main part, because it was us who had prepared it.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would seek its admission along the same terms
24 as the previous document.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Certainly. May it please be given an exhibit
1 number and marked for identification.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D376, marked for
3 identification, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could now have 1294D.
6 Q. And I'd ask you to go through the same exercise. If you could
7 take a look at the document, sir. And there are a number pages, so it we
8 could go to the next page of this document. After you've seen the first
9 page, if we could go to the next page. For the benefit of both
10 Mr. Thomas as well as the Chamber.
11 Now, I'm looking at the -- at the next page, and I see -- that's
12 okay. Never mind.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: And could we go to the next page, please, so we
14 can see the -- in English, the types of assets that are being discussed.
15 Q. And I would seek this document's admission, assuming that
16 Mr. Kodzopeljic, your response is the same, which is this is a document
17 that you recognise with regard to the matter we were discussing earlier
18 concerning the report.
19 A. This is just a section of the whole volume of this material. And
20 as far as I know, this material has been translated into French and given
21 to this international organisation for consideration.
22 Q. That -- that may well be the case. I don't know. I take your
23 word for it.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Would I seek this document's admission on the
25 same terms as the previous documents, that it be MFI'd at this time.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
2 please be given an exhibit number and be marked for identification.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D377, marked for
4 identification, Your Honours.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: And with the Registrar's indulgence, could we now
6 have 1295D up on the screen.
7 Q. And if you could go to your binder and take a look at, I believe
8 it's the next tab in order, 1295D. If you could take a look at that
9 particular document. 1295D.
10 Once again, this is a document consisting of a number of pages.
11 I don't know if you've had an opportunity to look at all of them. And if
12 you have, can you confirm for us that this is again part of that same
13 report that we were referring to?
14 A. Yes, that is exactly what I said a minute ago.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: And for purposes of -- and for purposes of the
16 Chamber's ability to see the document, could you please, Mr. Registrar,
17 scroll through the pages in English.
18 If you could -- I don't know how quickly we should move through
19 these pages.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine, Mr. Guy-Smith. We can move as fast
21 as you like.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. Could we see the next page. Could we
23 see the next page. Could we see the next page. I'm kidding. I'm
24 kidding. Very good.
25 And could we now have the -- I believe we're up to 1296D.
1 Q. And, once again, if you could go through the same exercise, sir.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want to do with this one?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I do. I would like to move its admission
4 under the same terms and conditions as those previously sought.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
6 number and marked for identification, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D378, marked for
8 identification, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH:
11 Q. And I take it that your response with regard to this document is
12 the same as the one that you've previously given?
13 A. Yes. This is an integral part of what we were speaking about,
14 because there's a lot of equipment, as I said, that remained there or was
15 destroyed or was confiscated.
16 Q. In your testimony, you discussed, previously, Slovenia and
17 Croatia. Was the same kind of report made with regard to --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not sure that I've moved that last one. Let
19 me do so. Under the same terms -- under the same terms and conditions.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
21 an exhibit number and be marked for identification.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D379, marked for
23 identification, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's a chart, but I don't think it's a -- never
2 I'd like to have -- the next document is 1298D.
3 Q. And this -- once again, this is a series of documents. And in
4 your testimony you'd previously mentioned Slovenia and Croatia. I want
5 to turn to the issue of Bosnia-Herzegovina and ask you whether or not a
6 similar type of report was made with regard to those assets or logistics
7 that were there.
8 A. Yes. Yes. In the same way, the same commission was involved,
9 and the same procedure was followed.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have 1298D.
11 And, Mr. Thomas, it will be a series of documents: 1298 all the
12 way up to 1312.
13 Q. Take a look at this document. Is that -- is this a document that
14 you're familiar with, with regard to the reports you're talking about?
15 A. You mean 1298D?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: And -- thank you, Mr. Registrar.
19 Q. Now, looking at this -- this document, and looking, for example,
20 at the page we're on now, page 2, there's an entry here, for example, of
21 OT -- I'm going - one, two, three - four lines down. It says:
22 "OTM-60, armoured personnel carrier."
23 What's that? What is that, an armoured personnel carrier?
24 What's its function?
25 A. It's an armoured vehicle that transports members of the infantry
1 to engage in combat.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could, Mr. Registrar, if we could go back
3 to the very first page for a moment.
4 Q. Looking at the first page, I note that the first entry is a
5 125-millimetre M-84 tank, medium. And could you tell us what that is,
7 A. It's a tank which was made by the SFRY, having obtained a licence
8 to do so from the Soviet Union. It was based on the tank T-72.
9 Q. And the numbers here, 125-mm, what does that stand for?
10 A. 125-mm; it means that the calibre of the gun was 125 millimetres.
11 Q. And is -- if you know, is that considered to be a light weapon, a
12 medium weapon, a heavy weapon; a gun with 125 millimetres?
13 A. It's considered to be a heavy, offensive weapon.
14 Q. The second entry on page 1 is a T-55 tank, 100-millimetre,
15 medium. With regard to the 100 millimetre, is that considered to be a
16 light, medium, or a heavy weapon?
17 A. Well, I'm not really a specialist in armoured vehicles, but all
18 tanks, offensive weapons, they're categorised as light, medium, or heavy.
19 I couldn't really say. 55 is perhaps a medium one, and 125 is perhaps a
20 heavy one.
21 Q. Understood. And within the entries on -- in item number 2, it
22 says "T-55" at the very bottom. If you look, it says "T-55 tanks total,"
23 and there's a number. What does that number signify? The number here is
25 A. Yes. It has to do with the amount of tanks that remained in the
1 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina after the JNA units and institutions
2 had withdrawn.
3 Q. With regard to what you've just said there, that's 336
4 100-millimetre T-55 tanks. If we were to go back and look at number 1,
5 the same would be true with regard to the M-84 tanks, that a total of
6 69 of those were left; correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would seek this document's admission along the
9 same terms and conditions as the previous documents previously entered.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
11 number and marked for identification, please.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D380, marked for
13 identification, Your Honour.
14 A. Thank you.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could now have 1299D.
16 Q. If you could look at 1299D. Do you recognise this document?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would seek its admission on the same terms and
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Submitted. May it please be given an exhibit
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D381, marked for
23 identification, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: 1300D.
1 Q. Have you had a chance to look at this document?
2 A. Yes. As I have said, Colonel Tomislav Antic worked on this
3 within my administration.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would its admission under the same terms and
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
7 number and be given -- marked for identification.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit D382, marked for
9 identification, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: 1301D.
12 Q. I would ask you the same question; I assume that I would get the
13 same response.
14 A. Absolutely identical.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would seek its admission under the same terms
16 and conditions.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be admitted and be given an exhibit
18 number and marked for identification.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D382, marked for identification,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm going to stop there at this point. I note
23 the time. I know it's a few minutes early. I'm going to be moving into
24 a new subject. I suggest that we take the break at this point in time.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a break and come back at quarter to
1 11.00. Court adjourned.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like to turn, now,
6 to the basic functions of the technical administration. And if we could
7 have up on the screen 1114D. And I need to double-check something. I
8 believe this is part of a previous document that has been introduced as
9 D200, MFI. And I'd like to go to page 23 in e-court. Page 23, please.
10 Q. I'd like you, if you could, to review this page, and I believe
11 it's also going to be the next page. This is section 22.3, concerning
12 the technical administration.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Wait a minute. We seem to be having some
14 technical uploading issues, so let me speak to Mr. Zorko for a second.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I've been informed that the English -- that the
17 English that's up is not the proper draft translation. There's another
18 draft translation which is presently not up. It's only in hard copy. So
19 if you can take off the English.
20 If we could go to the top of the document. Right there is
21 perfect, where it says 22.3.
22 Q. Could you tell us what that says right there, after 22.3? What
23 is the title?
24 A. The title is "The basic functions of the technical
1 Q. Okay. And with regard to the first bullet point - and I'm not
2 going to read the entire document - but with regard to the first bullet
3 point, what are the basic functions that are listed there?
4 A. The planning, organising, and functioning of the system of
5 technical support within the army.
6 Q. And then under that there is another subtitle, and what is that
8 A. Yes. Within that framework it has to do with providing technical
9 and materiel equipment. It has to do with maintenance, the maintenance
10 of technical equipment and materiel; and developing the equipment; and
11 providing the Army of Yugoslavia with equipment that comes within the
12 framework of tactical responsibility; and participating in supporting --
13 providing support in tactical terms.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. Could we go to the next page.
15 Q. And continuing, just with the remaining bullet points.
16 A. Yes. It has to do with standardising and unifying technical
17 equipment and materiel for the land army. It has to do with certain
18 names, with weather reports for the technical and materiel service of the
19 land army. And it also has to do with regulative and normative
21 Q. I'm just going to ask you for the next sub-heading. I'm not
22 going to ask you to go through all of that at this time. We'll come back
23 to it later when we have an English translation.
24 What is the next sub-heading on the document?
25 A. You mean after this; that's what you have in mind? "Tasks."
1 Q. Very well. And we'll stop -- and we'll just stop right there for
2 the moment, and we'll come back to this once we have a English
3 translation up.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: It can be taken off the screen.
5 Q. Now, we've previously discussed, in a brief sense, the issue of
6 planning for the -- or assisting in the planning for the budget. And in
7 that regard we've discussed the matter of logistics. With regard to the
8 planning aspect of the budget, I'd like to focus your attention on the
9 issue of something which were called "materiel lists," if I might. And
10 what I'd like to do with you, if -- if we can, is get an understanding of
11 what is the function of a materiel list and what is the procedure that is
12 used with regard to materiel lists. I'm trying to figure out a way of
13 doing this in an a relatively simple fashion.
14 So, first of all, what I'd like to know is, if you could: Could
15 you tell us what is a materiel list used for? Why do we have materiel
16 lists in the army?
17 A. May I make a few introductory remarks before I deal with that
19 Q. I believe that you can, if they're related to the issue of -- if
20 it's the issue of materiel lists, yes. Please go ahead.
21 A. Yes, they are. In my country - and that's especially the case in
22 the army - all equipment or state property, all socially owned property
23 previously would be listed and recorded in relevant documents. So
24 anything that a unit or an institution from the JNA or the
25 Army of Yugoslavia had would have to be noted, recorded, in certain
1 documents, and someone would be responsible for those records.
2 Naturally, there are certain regulations according to which the officer
3 in charge has the right to avail himself of certain equipment. He can
4 categorise the equipment. And he can assign equipment and can sell such
5 equipment. So all equipment in an army is recorded, and these records
6 can be found in the relevant documents.
7 So we have a list of everything, of all the equipment that the
8 army has at its disposal, and this can be found in certain books, in
9 digital form in computers, and at the relevant levels of command. The
10 system in question is then checked and controlled.
11 Q. Hold on for a minute before you go any further. You say the
12 system in question is then checked and controlled. What are the --
13 what's the importance of checks and controls in the army with regard to
14 the logistics that we're talking about? Why is that an important thing
15 for an army to be able to do?
16 A. The state gives an army its property, makes it responsible for
17 that property. Therefore, it is necessary to ensure that it is used in
18 an efficient and economic manner.
19 Now, to attain this objective, to be sure that we know who has
20 what at his or her disposal, to know whether something is being sent out
21 of the system or is coming into the system, it is necessary to have
22 materiel documents. There is a certain staff who are responsible for
23 keeping records of such equipment. And as part of this record-keeping,
24 as part of the system in question, we also have materiel lists that you
25 have mentioned. So these materiel lists are part of the system. This
1 means that nothing can leave a unit without this being reflected in the
2 documents I have mentioned. Nothing can enter the unit; no logistical
3 equipment can enter a given unit if it's not recorded in the relevant
4 documents. So this then becomes part of the system, and then at any
5 level of command it is possible to see who has what at his or her
7 So the purpose of these materiel lists is to regulate the changes
8 that take place within the system I have been describing to you.
9 Q. With regard to the issue that we were discussing earlier, that
10 being the issue of planning the budget, what importance, if any, do the
11 materiel lists have with regard to those plans?
12 A. The materiel lists are important in that on the basis of these
13 lists, the officer in charge drawing up a plan knows exactly what he has
14 at his disposal, know what's coming according to the norms applicable to
15 each unit and to each type of asset, and on the basis of that he can be
16 able to draw up plans for the next year or for the next five-year period,
17 as the financial plans were usually made for.
18 Q. And in regard to what you've just said concerning drawing up a
19 plan for the officer in charge, knowing exactly what is at his disposal,
20 to what extent is the accuracy and completeness of those lists of any
21 importance with regard to planning for the budget?
22 A. The accuracy is extremely important. Or rather, no accuracies --
23 inaccuracies are allowed; because without such an inventory of military
24 assets, an army cannot operate or exist.
25 Q. And why is that?
1 A. There are several reasons for that. Firstly, each level of
2 command knows exactly what has at their disposal, what they can use, and
3 in what way. That means that according to their technical responsibility
4 each individual knows what is within their purview and which assets they
5 have been entrusted by the state to manage and run in a purposeful and
6 economical way.
7 I'm not quite sure if I gave you a full answer.
8 Q. Well, I'm sure that if you have not, the answer will become --
9 become more complete in the fullness of time as we discuss the issue, the
10 issue surrounding materiel lists. So don't concern yourself at this
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: What I'd like to do at this point in time is I'd
13 like to have 3371D up on the screen, page 63 in e-court. And the draft
14 translation of that document is 1D12-0553. Page 63.
15 Q. I note at the upper right-hand corner there is an item in bold
16 with the number 14, and thereafter there's a parenthetical phrase. Could
17 you tell us whether or not that designates the form number?
18 A. The entire system that I spoke with relation to materiel
19 transactions in the JNA later and the VJ is governed by specific
20 regulations. Specifically, we're talking about the regulation about
21 materiel bookkeeping, and this is Attachment 14 of that particular
22 regulation, and I think it dates back to 1993.
23 These instructions and regulations changed over time. However,
24 this whole area was always regulated in a certain manner and its
25 substance never changed. In other words, operating weapons and other
1 assets that the army had, substantially and materially, haven't changed,
2 except that computerised system has been introduced into the process of
3 compiling inventories and reports.
4 Q. Understood. And I note that there is the number MP-20 on the --
5 excuse me, MP-20 in the upper right-hand corner, and I take it that's the
6 form number for this particular document. This is an MP-20 form?
7 A. MP stance for materiel transactions, and 20 is the ordinal number
8 of the form that has to be filled out in order to implement this
9 bookkeeping. And this is not within the purview of the technical
10 administration but, rather, financial administration of the
11 Ministry of Defence. So this is not the form that my service used, but,
12 rather, it came from another service. These forms serve for other
13 purposes as well, not only for the technical service.
14 Q. I want to make sure that we understood your answer because I'm
15 told there may be a translation issue.
16 With regard to your answer, MP stands for accounting, for
17 materiel accounting, not materiel translations. Is that accurate?
18 A. Literally translated, materiel transactions, because that's the
19 system of transactions, whereas accounting and bookkeeping is just one
20 element of this transaction system.
21 Q. Now, this particular form is a form that, as I understand it, is
22 necessary to be filled out in order for anything of a logistics nature to
23 move from one place to another, to go from a sender to a receiver. Is
24 that a fair statement?
25 A. Precisely so. Only, it is possible to transfer an asset from one
1 one location to another. But the point is that it's moved from one unit
2 to another. That is the crucial point. Because each unit within the
3 system of materiel bookkeeping has its own code number, and if -- due to
4 a change within their system, this has to be recorded in this way.
5 Q. Understood. And when the -- when this particular form is filled
6 out, could you tell us how many copies of the form are involved in one
7 transaction? Is it a single piece of paper or multiple pieces of paper?
8 A. This form is filled out in several copies. That has always been
9 the case, regardless of the fact whether the bookkeeping is done on hard
10 copies or on computers. However, as to the number of these MP-20 lists,
11 depend on the type of transaction or, rather, the change to which the
12 asset was subject: whether it was moving from one unit to another, from
13 one army to another, whether it's been procured from abroad, whether it's
14 been procured for a local factory, et cetera.
15 Q. And when dealing with the issue of delivery, delivering, for
16 example, let's say, one -- one gun, if you're moving a gun from one place
17 to another, how many -- would there be -- well, that would be leading. I
18 won't do that.
19 How many sheets would be involved? Is it -- is it -- go ahead.
20 A. At least five copies, sometimes even up to seven.
21 Q. With regard -- let's use the five copies as an example. If there
22 was a delivery of, for example -- let's make it -- let's say a hundred
23 guns. Looking at that particular form, is that a form that would be
25 A. Yes. That would be the form that an organ in charge would have
1 to fill out.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I seek the -- I seek its admission at this time.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit D384, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I ask that it be MFI'd.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given -- marked for
10 Yes, Mr. Thomas.
11 MR. THOMAS: If it assists, Your Honour, I have no difficulty
12 with the document being admitted. It doesn't need to be MFI'd unless
13 there's another reason to MFI it.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith?
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think we're okay then. It can be admitted.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. It's admitted.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Now, what I'd like to do is I'd like to -- I
18 don't know if we need to take a screen shot of this and do it again,
19 because I'm going to use this same document a number of times.
20 And if all goes easily and well, we will be doing this five
21 times. If all goes easily and well. If not, we will revert to some
22 other system. But this should work.
23 Q. With regard to the -- the number of forms, there were a minimum
24 of five forms. And with Mr. Thomas's indulgence, I'm going to lead you
25 just for a quick second in terms of -- if you could tell us the colour of
1 the copies of the forms. Was -- and nothing more than that. The very
2 first form on the top of the pile would be -- would it be white; correct?
3 A. [No verbal response]
4 Q. Thereafter, there would be the same form that would be blue --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: He didn't answer.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh, I thought he did. He nodded.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I saw the nod.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I did too.
9 Q. You need to answer vocally, sir.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the next form would be blue; correct?
12 A. At the time when I was working at the technical administration,
13 we had one white, one blue copy, and the rest of the copies were pink.
14 Q. Okay. And I take it at the time that you were working at the
15 technical administration the paper itself had the ability to be written
16 on in the first copy, and whatever was written on the first copy would go
17 through the balance of the copies. Like carbon paper. Old school.
18 A. Well, it depended on the time and the speed of movement of these
19 forms. However, initially, each copy had to contain the initiation of an
21 Q. The first copy, the white copy, in terms of the white copy, what
22 information would be filled out on the white copy with regards to the
23 delivery of the - as we put it - 100 guns. And if you could look at the
24 form, and with the assistance of Madam Usher and the magic pen that we
25 have, if you could put a tick mark in each of the boxes that would be
1 filled out by the person who is entering data into the white copy.
2 A. Could we please increase this by 25 per cent? [Marks]
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't know if we can increase it by -- yes, it
4 seems to be getting -- good.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On my screen it has remained the
6 same. It's not enlarged.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH:
8 Q. Well, can you -- if you can work with it -- if you can work this
9 screen for this particular form, that'll be great. We'll see what we can
10 do about increasing it for you on the next one.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does the witness not have this document in hard
12 copy in his binder? Can't we use the ELMO if he wants it bigger?
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's actually an excellent idea. And we
14 have -- and if it's not in his binder, we have another copy of it in hard
16 Considering the effort that the gentleman's going through. I
17 suggest that we follow the Chamber's suggestion and move to the ELMO.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Usher is busy doing that.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Madam Usher, here. We have another copy of it.
20 You could show it to -- if you ...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I marked this in colour red, but I
22 don't know if it's visible everywhere.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. I understand.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if the Chamber -- if the Chamber's able to
1 see it, then we can continue in this way. Or we can -- we can just move
2 to the ELMO and hard copy, if that makes it easier for all people to see
3 it. And I think it might, noticing the way they were all leaning over
4 the screens.
5 Madam Usher, if I might give to you, initially, two markers. One
6 is yellow, one is orange.
8 Q. If you could go through -- if you could go through the same
9 exercise once again, sir.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Now, the -- is there anything at the bottom? There may be
12 something on the bottom of the screen. But just staying at the top of
13 the screen for the moment, you've marked a number of boxes, and are those
14 the boxes that are filled out by the sender of the materiel? And in this
15 instance it would be the hundred rifles that we've discussed.
16 A. I'll have to explain.
17 Q. Please do.
18 A. This materiel list can be filled out -- or, rather, let's begin
19 like this: Let's say that the materiel is either in a depot or in a
20 unit. Now, if the officer in charge of that depot issues an order, it is
21 him who is going to fill out as I have marked on this form. Now, that is
22 sent to his depot. And, of course, there are people in the depot who are
23 handling these army assets.
24 Q. I'd like to ask you a quick question, which is with regard to box
25 number 24, 25, and 26 on the form, which is, What is box number 24 for?
1 What information is filled out in box number 24?
2 A. It's a very important piece of information for the system of
3 materiel bookkeeping. The nomenclature number of the JNA is entered
4 there and the name of the asset. So it's not enough to say "gun this and
5 this." You need to enter a 12-digit number. This 12-digit number gives
6 you an exact identification of which particular asset is in question.
7 Q. Could you refer to the ELMO, which is the other -- which is the
8 hard copy, and in box number 24 put in the words "12-digit number."
9 In box number 24 --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- put in "12-digit number."
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Perfect, yes. And that's the thing you're talking about when
14 you're referring to a nomenclature that has to be identified, the
15 specific item that is being delivered or transferred?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In box number 25, is there a particular designation that goes
18 into that particular box?
19 A. Since we are talking about computerised bookkeeping, codes are
20 entered here, referring to certain measures. For example, you use
21 pieces. Kilogramme would be designated by another number, et cetera.
22 This is also very accurately specified in the nomenclature so that you
23 know always exactly which unit of measure is applied. You cannot express
24 everything in kilogrammes, for example.
25 Q. If you're dealing with, for example, pieces, unit pieces, what
1 number would be -- what would you be using?
2 A. 60, 6-0.
3 Q. And box number 26 is for what purpose, sir?
4 A. All pieces of equipment and materiel, with a view of keeping
5 records with regard to replenishment and their quality. And there's a
6 specific instruction to identify the category and quality; for example,
7 there's a category which says "New asset." And then after a few years it
8 will move to category 2, et cetera. So in this box you enter the data
9 that the service has with respect to the category of a particular asset.
10 Q. And can you give us an example of a category of a particular
11 asset that you would enter in that box? You have 60 here, so what would
12 you enter in the next box, for example?
13 A. For example, if you say guns, if they're fully combat ready after
14 they had been repaired, they would be marked as category 1.
15 Q. Very well. Now, with regard to the boxes that you have placed
16 yellow markings, are those the entirety of the boxes that are marked by
17 you in which data is entered in the first instance in the white copy, or
18 are there other box that also are dealt with in the white copy?
19 A. This has been done by an organ who initiates this list and issues
20 an order. Now this is dispatched to the depot people who have to
21 implement that physically.
22 Q. And when it's dispatched to the depot people who have to
23 implement the order physically, what, if any, boxes do they put any
24 information in to indicate that they have, in fact, implemented,
25 physically, the order? Or put in other terms, they've done what they're
1 supposed to do by virtue of the order they've been just given.
2 A. They have to fill out the following boxes: Number, date,
3 signature, professional service organ, and the commission that is
4 supposed to put this into practice. This has to be signed by the order
5 issuer, the handler, and the -- those amending the form number 50 by way
6 of reducing the quantity that had existed before.
7 Q. Could you do us a favour and please -- please mark in yellow
8 those boxes that you've just put a dot in.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Now, you mentioned -- you mentioned, I believe, the word
11 "commission," which is in box number 35. What is the commission that
12 you're referring to?
13 A. I have to explain this. Sometimes one person can deal with
14 equipment being handed in, and sometimes it's the commission. Usually
15 for complex equipment you have the commission that is involved. So it's
16 the commission of a warehouse or of a supply unit that does this work,
17 and they physically deliver the item to the relevant person, or they send
18 it for transport by rail or by some other means or to some other unit.
19 Q. With regard to the white form, the first form that we've been
20 discussing, are there any other entries on that form in order to indicate
21 that it is a completed transaction up to this point, that all the parties
22 have done what they're supposed to do? And by that I'm referring to any
23 kind of stamps or any other entries that are put on the form.
24 A. According to the instructions for materiel auditing, all parties
25 involved in this procedure have to certify their signature with a stamp.
1 Q. And where would that certification occur?
2 A. Under 37. The person issuing the order has to certify the
3 procedure with a stamp.
4 Q. Could you do us the kindness of taking the pen and drawing a
5 circle to indicate the stamp, where the stamp would be.
6 A. [Marks] -- I apologise. [Marks]
7 Q. I see that you've -- you've -- you've indicated, I take it, that
8 the place where you've drawn the black circle is incorrect and the stamp
9 should be up above where you've presently drawn a circle in yellow;
11 A. Yes, yes. Where it's written "MP," the stamp rubric.
12 Q. Just for purposes of clarity, if you would draw a red -- a red
13 circle over where the yellow circle that you just drew was, so we know
14 that that's -- just --
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Perfect. There we go. And that would be the stamp; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who retains this copy?
19 A. It depends on the situation, and the situations can be of various
20 kinds. But, in general, this form, this pink form and four copies, a
21 blue copy and four pink copies, forwarded -- are sent into the system.
22 So this official only has one pink copy at his disposal, only retains
23 that pink copy.
24 Q. Okay. And who retains the white copy? We haven't got to the
25 pink copies yet, but who retains the white copy?
1 A. The white and blue copies and a certain number of pink copies are
2 forwarded into the system. One pink copy accompanies the goods, the
3 equipment. It's either transported by train, or it's taken by the person
4 who came to take charge of the item in question. Or the person who takes
5 charge of the asset retains one pink copy.
6 Q. Okay. Before we get to the asset -- the asset being sent out,
7 does the -- does the manager of the warehouse from where -- from the
8 place where the goods were sent retain a copy, one of the pink copies
9 that you've referred to?
10 A. Yes. That's what I said. One pink copy remain in the warehouse,
11 in the supply unit. And on that basis, in column 39, this is noted. The
12 100 guns in question are noted as having been deducted.
13 Q. If I can hand you another blank copy, please.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Put that on top. It will it be -- yes.
15 Q. With regard -- this will be the pink copy that you just referred
16 to. I take it that all of information that you have mentioned that is
17 filled out on the white copy is also filled out on the pink copy. And in
18 addition, there are certain boxes on this pink copy that are filled out
19 by the -- what I'll call the warehouse manager; is that correct?
20 Now, I'm --
21 A. Yes. This only concerns column 39.
22 Q. Could you take the orange pen and just put a marking on -- on
23 box 39.
24 A. [Marks]. This then has to do with a different form.
25 Q. Okay. Could you do me the kindness of -- at the top of the form,
1 write the word "pink," since you've indicated this is a pink copy.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Now, you've told us that the materiel --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, sir.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we to understand that these copies are really
6 not copies of one another? There is certain information that goes on
7 certain colour copies and certain information that goes on other colour
8 copies? And I ask this because of the question you asked by saying, at
9 line -- page 41, line 9:
10 "... in addition, there are certain boxes on this pink copy that
11 are filled out by ... what I'll call the warehouse manager; that is
13 Providing the context of what you said earlier, I'm left with the
14 impression that this information that you're referring to on that
15 sentence was -- is not contained in the white copy.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be correct, Your Honour, with regard
17 to the box that he's filled out on the first pink copy. That would be
18 box 38. That would not be kept on the white copy. So the white -- the
19 white copy -- if we were to have him fill in all of the parts of this
20 pink copy, he would have -- there would be yellows in all of the areas
21 where he's put them on the white copy, which I'm more than happy to have
22 him do so you can see the difference of the way that it would look,
23 because -- visually, since we're dealing with five copies.
24 But that would be new information. The white copy would only be
25 in yellow. The first pink copy that we discussed has the new addition of
1 the information that is in orange, which is someone's signature. And
2 this is for a tracking device so you can see with regard to the -- now
3 the issue of who would handle the materiel in the warehouse. The way
4 that that's understood is by that particular box being filled out.
5 Now, I hope that's clear. Because if it's not clear, I want to
6 make sure it is clear because ultimately we're going to be dealing,
7 specifically, with the materiel lists that the Prosecution has introduced
8 in this case and have a discussion about them.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well -- yeah.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: So I want to make sure that -- I want to make
11 sure that the system is understood first so that when we actually get to
12 the materiel lists that have been introduced by the Prosecution, the
13 Chamber has an appreciation of what the system is that should have been
14 utilised, what is the methodology that's used, what are the requirements
15 therein, in a physical fashion, so that you can see what the positive and
16 negative aspects are to the forms that the Prosecution has introduced.
17 Because we obviously contend there's certain matters that need to be
18 discussed, but I'm not going to go -- that -- we'll take that no further
19 at this point.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH:
22 Q. For purposes of clarification, because it might be of some
23 assistance, with regard to the pink copy that you have of right now,
24 which is the pink copy that is, as I understand it, retained by the
25 manager of the warehouse, could you -- could you fill in the boxes in
1 yellow that you had previously filled in in the white copy to show the
2 progression of the delivery.
3 A. There's a little difference. All five copies have been filled in
4 in an identical manner so far, but the fifth copy, which remains in the
5 warehouse, in that case, column 39 doesn't have to be filled in because
6 when the equipment and records are sent out, no one has to know where he
7 made a record of everything. So all four copies are sent on, but one
8 accompanies the goods being delivered. And three copies, the white copy,
9 the pink one, and the blue one, are sent to the command of the unit that
10 is to receive the equipment in question.
11 Q. Understood.
12 With that explanation, let us now move to the blue copy.
13 With regard to this particular copy, this is a copy -- who -- who
14 has physical possession of this copy? Is this the person who receives
15 the goods?
16 A. I'm not sure you've understood me. All three copies, the white
17 one, the blue one, and one pink copy, are sent to the unit, to the
18 command of the unit who is to receive the items in question. So all
19 three copies are sent there. And at that point, well, they're sent to
20 the command. He doesn't have to receive this on the very same day. He
21 doesn't have to receive the guns on the same day. He waits for the post,
22 for this to arrive. When it arrives, he asks his manager whether -- or
23 his officer whether he has received this. He brings the list and says,
24 "Yes, I've received it." And then he fills in this right-hand corner at
25 the top, and that concerns all three copies that are used by the person
1 or the official receiving the assets.
2 Q. If I could interrupt you there. With regard to -- this will be
3 the blue copy. With regard to the blue copy, if you could first of all
4 put at the top of the page "Blue."
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Now, you had indicated that the receiver fills out a certain
7 number of the boxes. Could you use that particular marker and draw a
8 line in the boxes that are filled out by the receiver.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. If I could stop you there. Are there further box that are filled
11 out -- I saw that you were about to fill out another box -- further boxes
12 filled out by the receiver?
13 A. It depends on the type of transaction, on whether payment has
14 been made or not. There are certain other columns for other purposes.
15 Q. And with regard to the very bottom of the form, which boxes in
16 the bottom of the form are filled out by the receiver?
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Now, with regard to this particular form, which is the blue form,
19 is the information that is contained on the left-hand side of that form
20 information that has been filled out as well? And that was information
21 you had previously filled out in yellow.
22 Could you please take the yellow --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you please take the yellow marker and, using the yellow
25 marker, fill in those boxes.
1 A. This is filled in by the sender.
2 Q. That's correct.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And I believe that you'd indicated, with regard to the sender,
5 there was a stamp on -- there was a stamp on the signature. Could you
6 use the red pen, once again, and show us where the stamp would be.
7 A. Yes. From the sender. [Marks]
8 Q. Thank you. Wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on --
9 A. Or the receiver.
10 Q. Okay. So you've now -- you now have -- you've marked two circles
11 in red, both which indicate stamps, one for the sender and one for the
12 receiver; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And so we're clear about this particular copy which we've called
15 the blue copy, the information that was filled out by the sender is in
16 yellow, the information that was filled out by the receiver is in green;
18 A. That's how the form has been, in fact, divided, if you have
19 noticed this.
20 Q. If you go to the very bottom of the form. With regard to boxes
21 number -- box number 38 -- or I may -- I don't know if it's 38 or 39.
22 I'm not sure. Now, that's the form -- don't use the red pen. With
23 regard --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Take that pen away from that man.
25 Q. With regard to those particular -- those particular boxes, are
1 those boxes also filled out on the blue form as you had previously done,
2 I believe, in orange? They were signed. 38 and 39. 38 and 39.
3 A. 38 and 39. This has to be filled in by the sender, the official
4 in charge of the assets.
5 Q. Very well. Now, are there any further forms that are filled out
6 with regard to this particular transaction? Because you'd mentioned
7 there were a number of pinks. Is there another pink form, then, that has
8 further information from the information that we find on the blue form?
9 A. I'm not sure you've understood me correctly. The white copy, the
10 blue one, and the pink one are sent to the command of the unit receiving
11 the assets, and one pink copy remains in the hands of the manager, of the
12 official who received this.
13 Q. That's understood. Now, we haven't filled that form out yet,
14 have we? The pink form that remains in the hands of the manager that
15 receives it.
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Could you put on the top of this form "Pink 2," using the --
18 now -- don't use orange. Let's use -- don't use orange. Here, use the
19 blue pen.
20 Now, with regard to this form, all of the information that we
21 have discussed that was filled out on the blue form would also exist in
22 that form, which we'll do at the very end. And, in addition, is there
23 any further information that is filled out on pink 2?
24 A. The only difference is that it is audited. We're talking about
25 box 42, because he has his books, his archives.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. If we could move that further up.
2 Q. When you said 42, could you put an X in that box, 42.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And with regard to boxes 40 and 41, when are those boxes filled
6 A. These boxes are filled out in all four -- three forms. It
7 depends on who -- on whether the person who brought the goods brought
8 that form too. So either three or four forms are filled in.
9 Q. With all of these forms filled in.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I think, with the Court's indulgence as well
11 as Mr. Thomas, he can fill the form out -- the balance of the form in the
12 break, and we'll check it, rather than taking up the time to do it.
13 Q. With this form now being filled out, is the transaction completed
14 for the purposes of accounting? Are all the forms that are necessary
15 done so that the delivery can be tracked?
16 A. No. In fact, these three forms, the white one, the blue one, and
17 one pink form, are sent to the person who received it for materiel
18 auditing. The white and pink copy are certified. They're filled in.
19 The pink one is filled in, too. And then, in an identical manner, he
20 certifies that the goods, the assets, were received. Having received the
21 relevant information, these forms are sent on. The pink form is sent to
22 the person who sent the goods, the assets; the white copy is retained by
23 the official; and the pink copy is retained by the technical department
24 or the person who is in charge of logistics supplies in the unit.
25 On the basis of these two documents, the white one and the pink
1 one, an entry is made in the books. An entry can't be made in the books
2 until the receiver says that these items have been listed in the book.
3 Once this has been done, then the process, the transactional process, is
4 completed, the one that concerns the warehouse and what was delivered by
5 the warehouse, because -- perhaps I haven't said this: The white copy is
6 sent by the receiver to his accounting department. The pink one is given
7 to the sender who sends the copy to his own auditing department.
8 Q. Let me ask you this question: Once this transaction is
9 completed, how many different points are there, for purposes of
10 double-checking, to make sure that the asset claimed to be sent was in
11 fact received or the asset alleged to be received was in fact sent? How
12 many different places can you look at to make sure that that's occurred?
13 And what I'm looking for here is a question -- a system of checks
14 and balances here that you were talking about in terms of the importance
15 of accuracy in the system.
16 A. There would be a minimum of five such points and perhaps even
18 Q. And with regard to the issue that we were talking about at the
19 beginning, which is planning for the budget, is this information
20 information which is critical for purposes of that planning, to have
21 these forms accurately filled out and be in a position to know and to be
22 able to track whatever the particular piece of -- of equipment is?
23 A. Yes. Why do I say four, five, or six, or a minimum five and
24 perhaps even six? Well, because some of the documents remain in the
25 units that are -- handed over the equipment or received equipment. Some
1 documents go to the centre in the relevant -- at the relevant level of
2 control and command. One report goes to the Ministry of Defence where
3 the situation, with regard to the equipment, can also be checked in
4 regard to the units concerned.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I see the time.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at half past
8 12.00. Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH:
13 Q. Hopefully we've made things clearer, but perhaps we have not.
14 What I'd like to do is ask you the following question with regard to the
15 number of forms that the accounting department needs in order to verify
16 that a transaction has occurred, and by that I mean that a piece of
17 equipment has gone from the sender and been received properly.
18 A. Provided I managed to explain the procedure to you, although I'm
19 not an expert in dealing with these documents, but I have been using them
20 in my system, I would like to say that the blue copy is kept by the
21 materiel bookkeeping of the sending unit; the white copy is retained by
22 the receiving unit; one pink copy is held by the handler who had handed
23 over the asset; and the other pink copy is kept by the handler who
24 received the goods. And they are used for entering changes in their
25 records, that is to say, on MP-10 form.
1 As I said in the course of transfer, one of the documents may
2 accompany the asset, and this copy is maintained by the technical service
3 organ in the receiving unit, purely for keeping records. So it is not
4 particularly important, but is, nevertheless, necessary as an element of
5 the transaction.
6 Q. I just looked at your last answer, and I'm a bit confused. I --
7 you indicated the blue copy is kept by the sender and the white copy is
8 retained by the receiving unit. I had thought that it was the reverse of
9 that. That this was, in fact, the white copy that was retained by the
10 sender and the blue copy that was -- the blue copy that was the receiving
11 unit's copy. Am I incorrect in that?
12 A. What I have just said is correct. The blue one is kept by the
13 sender, and the white one is kept by the recipient.
14 Q. Very well. With regard to the issue of the budget and planning
15 the budget, these materiel lists have what significance? Are they
16 necessary in order to plan the budget?
17 A. The materiel lists as documents, from the moment that something
18 is being sent by the sender and received by the recipient, they are no
19 longer significant in the sense of information exchange because the
20 respective centres, the bookkeeping centres, have exact data about who
21 sent what and who received what. Therefore, one can keep these forms for
22 a certain number of years and thereafter are destroyed.
23 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what the significance is, if any, where
24 the form is not filled out completely and accurately with regard to the
25 data that is necessary for planning the budget? And I'm referring to the
1 kinds of things that you're doing in terms of understanding what assets
2 you have available, what assets have been used, what assets have been
3 transferred, what assets have been retained.
4 A. Sir, I can tell you this: That the accuracy of keeping records
5 of this nature and their processes in financial centres is something that
6 the system of materiel transactions is very much dependent upon in the
7 army. And as far as I know, the same applies to state assets. One must
8 treat military assets in this way, otherwise it is impossible to
9 implement any command unless this procedure is adhered to in a very
10 precise and accurate manner.
11 Q. Thank you. I'm going to go back to something that we were
12 referring to before because I understand that it's now available to us.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have 1301D on the screen.
14 I believe that was where we left off, and I'm using -- this was
15 the last document that was introduced in evidence -- introduced into
16 evidence MFI'd; correct?
17 Q. I'd just like you to take a look at this document for a quick
18 second, just to focus you.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: And could we now take a look at 1303 D.
20 Q. Previously when we were referring to this report, do you
21 recognise this document as being one of the documents that you were
22 discussing in terms of the issue with regard to assets in the
23 Republics of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. I believe that this is an integral part of the report sent to the
25 international community for the purpose of the division of assets and
1 liabilities, and this is a summarised review for a particular addressee
2 that is indicated on the top.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I move its admission on the same terms and
4 conditions that were previously discussed.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is now 13012, or what is it?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: This is 1303.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: 13 --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please let us be very precise.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: 1303D.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. --
11 MR. GUY-SMITH:
12 Q. We were. We're referring to numbers. It's perfectly fine.
13 A. Are we talking here about the review of movable and immovable
15 Q. Yes, we are.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 The document 1303D is admitted into evidence. May it please be
18 given an exhibit number and marked for identification.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this would be Exhibit D385, marked
20 for identification, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 Mr. Guy-Smith, you are aware and you do remember that 1301D has
23 not been tendered. You said -- you asked the witness just to have a
24 brief look at it and --
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'd been informed that it had been tendered. If
1 it'd not been tendered, I move its admission under the same terms and
2 conditions as previously sought. And I do apologise to the Court if I've
3 missed the document.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. It is indeed D383, marked for
5 identification. Sorry. My apologies.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Too many documents this morning, Your Honour.
7 Fortunately they're not all -- fortunately they're not all forms.
8 I'm now going to ask you to call up 1308D.
9 And, Mr. Registrar, for your purposes, I'll be calling up 0910,
10 11, and 12 in order, to make your life a bit easier.
11 Q. I take it that your response would be the same with regard to
12 this -- this document, which is part of that same report.
13 A. Yes. It's part of the same report.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I move its admission under the same terms and
15 conditions. And ask Mr. Registrar to pull up the next document after the
16 Court has ruled.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
18 please be given an exhibit number and be marked for identification.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D386, marked for
20 identification, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 And you said the next document is 0910?
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: 1309. It was -- it's going to be -- Your Honour,
24 it's going to be 1309, 1310, 1311, and 1312 sequentially.
25 Q. Once again, I assume that your answer will be the same, which is
1 this is -- this is part of that same package that we were referring to
3 A. Yes. I have just only received it on my screen. Yes, yes. It's
4 the same report.
5 Q. I do apologise.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could move its admission.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
8 given an exhibit number. But may I just be clear what it is. We've just
9 had a summary of assets left in Croatia moved and now we've got this one,
10 which is not a form, which is actually 1309D.
11 Is it this one or the previous one?
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: It should be a form, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. That's the previous one, which is
14 the one about Croatia. That's right. This one.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Correct. That's 1309.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. Okay. This one is admitted. May
17 it please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D387, marked for
19 identification, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: And for purposes of focus and clarification, the
22 next document which would be 1310 refers to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is a summary of military
24 facilities from that same report.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might ask a question here.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I -- is this equipment left in Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 with the ABiH Army or with the VRS?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH:
5 Q. Did you hear His Honour's question?
6 A. Yes. Yes, I did. I thought His Honour gave the floor to you.
7 This is a summary of immovable assets of the JNA, the Republic of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as at 31st December, 1990. That was the situation
9 that prevailed at the moment prior to any events taking place.
10 Q. I understand that answer, but His Honour has asked you a
11 different question which is --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think my question becomes irrelevant. Thank
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. Well, actually, you anticipated my
15 question at the conclusion of all of these documents.
16 If we could -- if we could now have 1311D on --
17 I need to move this to admission under the same terms and
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given the same
21 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P388 [sic], marked for
22 identification, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say "P," Mr. Registrar?
24 THE REGISTRAR: I'm very sorry. It would be D388, marked for
25 identification, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: 1311D, please.
3 Q. This refers to Macedonia?
4 A. Yes. It's from the same package of the estimation of the value
5 of assets as at 31st of December, 1990, that is to say, the value of the
6 military assets that the army had at its disposal and that the army
7 managed in that particular republic.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I move its admission under the same terms and
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
11 number and marked for identification.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D389, marked for
13 identification, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could have 1312D.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have looked at it, and I
17 think that this is now the summary regarding the value of military
18 immovables and their values of the former JNA regarding Serbia and
19 Montenegro and the other republics that have seceded as at
20 31st of December, 1990, and this reflects the value, expressed in
21 US dollars, of the property that the army had at that moment.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I seek its admission under the same terms and
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given an
25 exhibit number and be marked for identification.
1 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D390, marked for
2 identification, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH:
5 Q. Now, His Honour had asked you a question earlier, which I'm going
6 to ask you again, which is: With regard to this series of documents that
7 we've looked at in terms of both movable and immovable assets, are these
8 assets that were left by the JNA for the benefit of the ABiH, for the
9 benefit of the VRS, for the benefit of some other institution or
10 institutions, if you know?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're asking specifically about
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And the focus -- the focus that His Honour has put on the
15 question, which is specifically Bosnia-Herzegovina. Obviously, that
16 would define the ABiH and the VRS.
17 A. I believe that we are talking here about two different issues.
18 One issue is the stock-taking of the JNA assets on the
19 31st of December, 1990, and the second issue is that we have summaries of
20 what was left in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 Q. Thank you very much for that correction.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Mr. Registrar, you can take this particular
23 document off the screen.
24 Q. With regard to your last answer and specifically with regard to
25 the second issue of summaries of what was left in the territory of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, are those summaries of what was left in the territory
2 of the Bosnia-Herzegovina left for the ABiH, for the VRS, if you know, or
3 for some other institution or organisation?
4 A. If I have seen the summary in detail, we are talking about the
5 entire bulk of assets that the JNA had in the territory of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. However, how this was divided at a later stage is a
7 completely different issue.
8 Q. With regard to what you've just said, to your knowledge was there
9 agreement to leave military assets, when the JNA left, for the benefit of
10 the ABiH Army?
11 A. I don't think I can give you a precise answer to that. However,
12 I don't think there was any agreement reached though.
13 Q. Thank you. I now want to go to the issue of the special-purpose
14 industry, if I might.
15 Before the break-up of the former Yugoslavia, could you estimate
16 for us, if you know, the extent to which the economy was based on the
17 military industry or military production and manufacture?
18 A. I can't give you an estimation. I know that at least 50 per cent
19 remained in the aforementioned republics, and 50 per cent remain in the
21 Now, what was the contribution of those to the economy as a
22 whole? I can't give you even a rough answer.
23 Q. I'm asking you a slightly different question. Before the
24 break-up of the former Yugoslavia, there are those that have said that
25 the majority of the industry was predicated upon the production of
1 military goods and that the former Yugoslavia was a nation that was
2 increasingly becoming a nation that was producing military goods for both
3 internal use as well as for export to other nations, formally, before the
5 A. All I know is that the special-purpose industry or the military
6 complex manufactured up to 80 per cent of weapons and equipment for the
7 army, which means that the army received these domestically-manufactured
8 products. There were years in which the value of our exports of weapon
9 and equipment amounted even up to two billion US dollars. However, what
10 was the proportion of that amount with regard to the total state revenue,
11 I don't know.
12 Q. Could you tell us, During the period of time that it was
13 receiving an annual revenue up of to some two billion dollars, as you've
14 estimated it, if you know, where was the former Yugoslavia in terms of
15 production of what I call military goods? Could you -- could you give it
16 a ranking? Was it 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th, 12th?
17 A. You know, I'm an engineer, and I can only speak from that point
18 of view, by applying certain criteria. I have heard and there were
19 reports in the press that we were the fourth or the fifth or the sixth
20 exporting country. However, which criteria were used in order to
21 achieve -- or, rather, to come to this conclusion, I really don't know.
22 Q. Understood. With regard to the issue of special-purpose
23 industry, prior to the break-up, could you tell us, if you know, how many
24 locations there were throughout the country of special-purpose industry
25 factories or research departments or locations?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if I might, if we could have 3370D up on the
2 screen, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH:
5 Q. In a moment.
6 All right. Taking a look at this particular map, I note on this
7 map that there are a number of areas that designate a special -- there
8 are a number of areas on the map that have numbers upon them. Can you
9 identify for us what those numbers represent?
10 A. Sir, this represents where the technical services were located
11 but not for special purposes. This was part of the army; they were
12 subordinated to the army. Whereas special-purposes production was, so to
13 speak, was subordinated to the Ministry of Defence or worked under their
14 auspices, so to put it.
15 Q. Let's stay with this map then. We'll discuss this matter, and
16 then we'll tie that into the special-purpose industry in a moment.
17 Could you tell us, considering your answer, what number 1 on the
18 map stands for?
19 A. Number 1 is the repair and maintenance institute in Cacak.
20 Q. Number 2?
21 A. Number 2 is the technical -- the repair and maintenance institute
22 for ammunition based in Kragujevac.
23 Q. And number 3?
24 A. This is the air force repair institute, Batajnica, in Belgrade,
25 and they were responsible for air force equipment and for their
2 Q. Number 4.
3 A. This is the navy repair institute, Tivat, in Montenegro, and they
4 would repair and maintain navy equipment.
5 Q. Regards to 1, 2, and 3, those all seem to be designated in the
6 geographical location of Serbia. Were those specific institutes under
7 your technical administration?
8 A. 1 and 2 are under my administration, the repairs institute in
9 Cacak and Kragujevac. Number 3, the Batajnica repairer's institute, was
10 under the chief of the air force administration within the General Staff.
11 Q. And if I understood your testimony earlier, the reason that
12 number 3 would not be under your authority was because it was air force
13 and not land army and you were responsible for land army issues.
14 A. That's correct.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
16 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, I wonder if my friend could
17 particularise that -- those two questions as to time. As we know,
18 there's be a re-organisation of the MOD in the General Staff that
19 occurred at a period near the beginning of our indictment, and I just
20 want to place the answers in the appropriate time.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'd be happy to.
23 Q. With regard to Cacak and Kragujevac, when you were the chief --
24 when they were under your technical administration, what years are we
25 referring to?
1 A. At the time of the JNA and at the time of the SRJ -- or, rather,
2 the FRY, F-R-Y.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to give years? From what year to
4 what year?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from the time that I was
6 appointed as chief and then up until the time I was transferred to the
7 Ministry of Defence. All these institutions are still under those
8 logistics sectors in the army to this very day, 1 and 2.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you remind us when you were appointed the
10 chief and when you were transferred to the Ministry of Defence? I know
11 you've mentioned this earlier, but if you could just remind us.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 1993 until 1999 I was the
13 chief of the technical administration, and in the year 2000 towards the
14 end of March and the beginning of April, on the 2nd of April, I was
15 transferred to the Ministry of Defence.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. With regard to number 4, I heard the word "navy," so was -- I
20 immediately questioned whether or not that was a technical area that was
21 under your -- that was under your authority, because you said "navy."
22 Was it? The area that was in Montenegro.
23 A. No. That was under the navy technical administration.
24 Q. With regard to numbers -- well, number 5. That's in the
25 geographic location of Croatia according to this map. First of all,
1 which institute was that, if you know?
2 A. That was the air force repairs institute in Velika Gorica. They
3 repaired and maintained aircraft.
4 Q. In 1993, was that particular repairs institute a repairs
5 institute that did work for or in conjunction with the VJ, to your
7 A. Up until 1993.
8 Q. After 1993?
9 A. No. It was no longer part of the Army of Yugoslavia then.
10 Q. Do you -- do you know when it ceased being part of the
11 Army of Yugoslavia?
12 A. No, I can't remember the date.
13 Q. You previously had indicated that Croatia was one of the
14 republics that had seceded from the former entire -- the SFRY, let me put
15 it that way. And when Croatia seceded from the SFRY, was it at or about
16 that time or that specific date that this particular institute ceased
17 being an institute that was under the auspices of the army?
18 A. During that period.
19 Q. And that army was -- that army was the JNA or the VJ, just so
20 we're clear, because I know that you've used both JNA and VJ, depending
21 on whether we're talking about before or after the break-up.
22 A. It was the JNA at the time.
23 Q. Very well. With regard to number 6 on the map, what was that
25 A. That's the repairs and maintenance institute Bregana. It says
1 it's in Croatia here, but the institute itself was, in fact, in Croatia,
2 but all the employees -- or most of the employees, at least, were located
3 in Slovenia.
4 Q. And it was a repair and maintenance institute for what purpose?
5 A. That institute was under the authority of the technical
6 administration. It would repair and maintain non-combat vehicles,
7 artillery pieces, and some of the artillery. Artillery, ammunition, and
8 some artillery pieces.
9 Q. After Slovenia and Croatia engaged in their secession, was that
10 particular institute part of the support of the JNA?
11 A. No. It was immediately put in their hands.
12 Q. And when you say "put in their hands," whose hands?
13 A. The hands of the Army of Croatia.
14 Q. With regard to number 7, could you identify that for us, please.
15 A. Number 7 is the navy repairs institute located in Sibenik.
16 Q. And with regard to this particular institute located in Sibenik,
17 was that again something that became a Croatian institute for the benefit
18 of the Croatian military after Croatia seceded, as you put it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Number 8?
21 A. The navy repairs institute in Split.
22 Q. And I -- would it be fair to say that your answer would be the
23 same with regard to number 8 as it was with regard to those other
24 institutes that are located in the geographic area of Croatia and -- and
25 Slovenia, as you mentioned, with regard to what is designated as number 6
1 on this particular map?
2 A. You're quite right.
3 Q. Number 9, please.
4 A. This is the air force repairs institute in Banja Luka.
5 Q. And under whose auspices was the air force supplies institute in
6 Banja Luka after the secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. As far as I know, we didn't have a repairs institute in
8 Banja Luka. I don't know where this information was obtained, but I
9 know -- not familiar with any such case. Perhaps Kosmos, the factory, is
10 what they had in mind, but I'm not aware of the fact that there was a
11 repairs institute located in Banja Luka. We're obviously dealing with an
12 air force repairs institute here.
13 Q. Was -- was that an air force repairs institute that was under the
14 auspices of the VJ or under the auspices of another army, if you know?
15 A. Well, I'm telling you that I'm not aware of the existence of a
16 repairs institute there.
17 Q. Very well. With regard to number 10.
18 A. The Rajlovac air force repairs institute. As far as I know, it
19 fell into the hands of Republika Srpska. It's on the border of the
20 territory there, so I can't say for certain.
21 Q. And when you say that the territory of the Republic of Srpska,
22 did the Republic of Srpska have its own army?
23 A. Yes, it did.
24 Q. And what army was that? What was the name of that army?
25 A. The Army of Republika Srpska, the VRS.
1 Q. Looking at number 11, if we could. Could you identify that for
3 A. It's not correctly written here. It's the technical repairs
4 institute - not the VRZ, not the air force repairs institute - in
6 Q. And you say it's a technical repairs institute, and what is the
7 distinction between --
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. What is the distinction between a technical institute and what is
10 written here?
11 A. A technical repairs institute -- well, a technical department
12 called all its services technical repair institutes. But in the case of
13 the air force, it was called the air force repairs institute; in the case
14 of the navy, the navy repairs institute. These are the relevant
15 abbreviations that are used. And this institute was under the technical
17 Q. And when you say it "was under the technical administration,"
18 once again the same question that I've asked before: After a point in
19 time, and you've introduced a -- the Republika Srpska into your
20 discussion, was this particular technical repairs institute part of the
21 Republika Srpska, part of the ABiH, Bosnia-Herzegovina, a part of FRY?
22 A. After the events, it was the repairs institute -- or a repairs
23 institute of the ABiH, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 Q. Did it remain that, or did it at some point in time become a
25 repair institute for any other country, as you recall?
1 A. I think that this repairs institute was subsequently destroyed.
2 It no longer existed. It was no longer involved in that sphere of
4 Q. Very well. And, finally, number 12.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But just before we go to number 12.
6 Before it was destroyed, did it belong to any other country other
7 than Bosnia and Herzegovina?
8 I'm going back to your question, Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't think so.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: So I assume that the letters that are written in
12 brackets on the legend on this map denote the country to which these
13 belong. Now, I see there is "RS" in brackets after number 11. Is that a
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. And, finally, number 12 on this particular map. Could you
20 identify that for us, please?
21 A. Yes. That's the technical repairs institute in Travnik. It was
22 involved in repairing and maintaining electronics for weapon systems. It
23 was part of the technical administration, while this was still possible.
24 Subsequently, it became part of the ABiH army.
25 Q. And when you say "subsequently became part of the ABiH army," you
1 have used the term on a number of occasions of "after the events." Are
2 we to take that to mean after the various secessions of the republics
3 that you referred to before, when you use the term "after the events"?
4 A. I'm using that term deliberately because it was a dynamic
5 process, and some institutes even fell into the hands of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina or Croatia prior to the establishment of the various
7 republics or the various states.
8 Q. Understood.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't. Then when you say "after the events,"
10 what events are you referring to?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the time at which
12 Republika Srpska was declared; the existence of Republika Srpska, as well
13 as the existence of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I seek this document's admission.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D391, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH:
22 Q. And we've been -- we've been discussing briefly the issue of
23 technical institutes, and I think we were somewhat waylaid because I
24 started off the discussion with regard to the issue of special-purpose
25 industries. So if you could bear with me. Could you define for us what
1 special-purpose industries are?
2 A. I can say a few words about the subject. This was an industry in
3 the SFRY that was adapted to produce weapons and military equipment in
4 accordance with the requests made by the relevant ministries.
5 Q. And when -- was this a single industry, or were these a number of
6 different industries with -- that had different functions?
7 A. This industry was represented by a number of companies in the
8 territory of the SFRY, and the intention was for each republic to have
9 certain possibilities to satisfy the needs of the JNA. And everyone
10 participated in the budget.
11 Q. And I understand we're talking about the SFRY. And do you know
12 what the considerations were with regard to, as you put it, the intention
13 for each republic to have certain possibilities to satisfy the needs of
14 the JNA? Was that -- if you know, was that an economic consideration?
15 Was that a military consideration? Was it a combination of
16 considerations that focused on the intention being for each republic to
17 have certain possibilities to satisfy the needs?
18 A. As an engineer, I can say that the main criterion was that each
19 republic should participate in carrying out certain tasks and should be
20 able to benefit from the military industry. Another criterion was that
21 part of the special-purposes production should be located in the central
22 part of the state, mainly in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, so
23 that the industry would be protected in the case of a possible attack.
24 But the main criterion - and I know this for sure because I was at the
25 head of the sector for a year or so - the main criterion was that each
1 republic should participate in producing weapons and military equipment.
2 Q. You've just mentioned something which is that the
3 special-purposes production should be located in the central part of the
4 state, mainly in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, so that the
5 industry would be protected in the case of a possibility of attack, and
6 I'm wondering whether or not you can give us any other information about
7 that, because it sounds to me like you're discussing one of the
8 underlying principles that existed in the SFRY with regard to the kind of
9 structure the military had and the kinds of concerns that it had.
10 And if I'm being too vague, part of what -- part of what I'm
11 thinking about is that you had previously mentioned that you were neither
12 a NATO nation nor a Warsaw Pact nation, and that you were -- you haven't
13 said that you were sandwiched in between the two, but, geographically,
14 the SFRY held somewhat of a unique position.
15 A. I think that your question contains the answer. We considered
16 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina to be the bulwark from which the
17 entire Yugoslavia could be defended.
18 Q. I thank you for your answer.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I apologise to Mr. Thomas.
20 Q. In terms of the special-purpose industry's ability to do
21 business, were they under the SFRY? Were they allowed to do business
22 domestically, internationally, both, either, neither?
23 A. As far as that is concerned, I can say that there were certain
24 regulations that made this possible, and they could engage in business
25 for the army and on the local market, and they could also export. Much
1 of what was produced for special purposes was intended for export.
2 Q. And with regard to that which was produced, which was intended
3 for export, if you know, were the nature of those contracts? Were those
4 contracts that existed with the state, or were those contracts that
5 existed with the specific special-purpose industry itself, or both?
6 A. No. On the whole, we had state contracts, contracts with
7 Federal Ministry of Defence. They would draw up the contracts.
8 Institutes that had been authorised by the Ministry of Defence to do this
9 would draft that contracts, the SDPR or the supplies administration
10 within the Ministry of Defence.
11 Q. Using the term "Ministry of Defence," and I'm of some confusion
12 here, under the SFRY was the Ministry of Defence an independent organ of
13 the state, or was it part and parcel of another organ? Was it a unified
14 system there or was there a distinction?
15 A. Perhaps I was vague. I was talking about the Federal Secretariat
16 for National Defence, abbreviated SSNO.
17 Q. Is the SSNO, just so that we're clear, the SSNO and the Ministry
18 of Defence, are those the same kinds of -- of organs, or are there some
19 distinctions between those two organs, the SSNO and the Ministry of
21 A. The only difference was that the SSNO existed until the break-up
22 of the country, and after that we had the Ministry of Defence.
23 Q. Okay. After the break-up of the country, did the special-purpose
24 industries have the right to privately contract with foreign entities,
25 whatever they may be?
1 A. That was a difficult period for the special-purpose industry,
2 when the needs for equipment and equipment were reduced due to the lack
3 of funds. Therefore, each factory had to find its own way of coping with
4 the situation.
5 As much as I'm able to reply to your question, I don't think that
6 any of them concluded any contract directly. I think it all had to go
7 through the SDPR. That is to say, while I was at the head of that
8 department, we didn't conclude a single contract -- or, rather, no
9 factory concluded a single contract with anyone without the consent of my
10 administration or at least its approval.
11 Q. You indicated that there was a difficult period for the
12 special-purpose industry when the needs for equipment and equipment were
13 reduced due to lack of funds. When you're referring to the issue of lack
14 of funds, which lack of funds are you referring to? Whose lack of funds
15 are being identified there?
16 A. With regard to the needs of the army, certain funds are earmarked
17 in the budget for procurement of equipment locally. Since the state
18 lacked enough funds for these specific purposes, this caused the shortage
19 of financial means for procuring locally whatever was needed by the
20 Yugoslav Army.
21 Q. Before the break-up of the SFRY, can you tell us, if you know,
22 about how many factories that were distributed throughout the republic,
23 as you've explained to us, existed? Throughout the country, in total, if
24 you can.
25 A. I think that there were several dozens. Let's say between
1 80 or 90 factories within the industry complex. However, this complex
2 expanded by engaging subcontractors for the production process, so that
3 we can say that even thousands of businesses or companies were involved
4 in the protection, of course, with different percentage of participates
5 and different revenues generated.
6 Q. After, when the SFRY broke up and you had the FRY, could you tell
7 us about how many special-purpose industry factories were contained
8 within the -- within FRY?
9 A. After the break-up of the country, approximately 14 factories and
10 enterprises remained in the FRY. And later, this number increased to
11 14 or 16.
12 Q. Now, before the break-up of the FRY, were the special-purpose
13 industries throughout the country independent or interdependent on each
14 other? I'm sorry, let me say that -- independent of each other or
15 interdependent on each other?
16 A. Yes. That was precisely what caused the problem, because they
17 were totally dependent on each other. In most cases, it was impossible
18 for one single factory to produce one final product. It had to be
19 manufactured by at least three or four different companies. For example,
20 if you wanted to produce a rifle bullet, it involved at least the
21 involvement of five companies in the process.
22 Q. Well, after the war started, did the special-purpose industries
23 stopped working with each other? Did they continue working with each
24 other? What happened if there was this -- a reality of the
25 interdependence of these companies working with each other in order to
1 finalise a product?
2 A. The majority of equipment and weapons were planned to produce by
3 way of co-operation between the companies from Slovenia via
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia, and in some instances even it included
5 Montenegro and Macedonia. After the break-up, we tried to produce as
6 many elements in our factories in order to supersede the input of the
7 factories that remained in other republics. For that purpose, we
8 provided certain documents to the government through the
9 Ministry of Defence, and that was the so-called process of transfer of
10 production of military equipment from other areas to the territory of the
12 Q. I understand that. But with regard to the question that I've
13 asked you, did the co-operation between special-purpose industries in
14 various republics, including, for example, the FRY and BiH and Croatia,
15 continue or discontinue after the war started?
16 A. Now I understand your question. This co-operation was not
17 discontinued, notwithstanding a very difficult situation which sometimes
18 amounted to war. Even under such difficult circumstances they tried to
19 co-operate as much as they could.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we're waiting for Mr. Guy-Smith, can you
21 tell us, What does "SDPR" stand for?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. It's a federal
23 institution intended for analysing foreign markets and adapting its
24 capacities to it and then to work through its representative offices
25 abroad towards selling military equipment produced in the SFRY and in the
1 Republic of Serbia nowadays, and it stands for Federal Administration or
2 Directorate for Trading in Special-Purpose Products.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH:
6 Q. With regard to the special-purpose industry in FRY, can you tell
7 us whether or not the special-purpose industries in FRY were reliant on
8 either the special-purpose industries in the BiH and/or Croatia for
9 production of such things as tanks, bullets, mines, and other weapons of
11 A. I don't know which period you're referring to.
12 Q. After the war started.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry.
14 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
15 MR. GUY-SMITH:
16 Q. Hold on. His Honour's --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no. Carry on.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. Do you have my question in mind?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. Yes, I've heard your question.
23 After the outbreak of war, although there were problems in this
24 co-operation, people found a way to deal with that because it was a
25 matter of survival for them and their families as well. So these
1 institutions continued to co-operate to the extent that it was possible.
2 Of course, it was burdened with various problems, but they did continue
3 to work together wherever it was possible.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I note the time.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: We, unfortunately, have to break up now. We can't
6 finish with you because the next Court must come in. You will have to
7 come back tomorrow again at 9.00 in the same courtroom.
8 While you are out of court, I may just warn you that you are --
9 you may not discuss the case with anybody, least of all counsel for the
10 Defence, until you finish your testimony.
11 I see you're nodding. I guess that means you do understand.
12 And, therefore, court adjourned to 9.00 tomorrow morning, Courtroom II.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day
16 of July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.