Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12329

 1                           Tuesday, 6 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is IT-04-81-T,

 9     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have the appearances

11     for the day, starting with the Prosecution.

12             MR. THOMAS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

13     everybody in and around the courtroom.  Carmela Javier and Barney Thomas

14     for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Thomas.  And for the

16     Defence.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to all.

18     Boris Zorko, Chad Mair, Alex Fielding, Nadia Galinier and

19     Gregor Guy-Smith for Mr. Perisic.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

21             Good morning, Mr. Kodzopeljic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just remind you that -- the witness can't hear

24     any interpretation.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear it now.

Page 12330

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Just to remind you that you

 2     are bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony

 3     to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 4     Thank you so much.

 5             Mr. Guy-Smith.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  There's been discussion

 7     between myself and Mr. Thomas, and I think -- well, it would be better

 8     probably for Mr. Thomas to say it than I because that way he's going to

 9     have to confirm it any event.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

11             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, just to advise you that the MFI status

12     of the exhibits tendered yesterday can be removed and those can be

13     admitted as exhibits.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] I beg your pardon.  I

15     will have to say it again my mike was off.  All the exhibits that were

16     tendered yesterday?

17             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Registrar, are you able to check that out for

19     us and make sure that it's done?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  We have 15 MFI from yesterday

21     and they can easily be de-MFI'd.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, sir.  If you would do so.

23             Mr. Guy-Smith.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you so much.  If the usher would be so kind

25     as to give the witness the binder.

Page 12331

 1                           WITNESS: JUGOSLAV KODZOPELJIC [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

 3                           Examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:  [Continued]

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kodzopeljic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Yesterday, we were discussing aspects of the special-purpose

 7     industry, and I'd like to continue with that particular topic at this

 8     point in time.

 9             There was a -- I believe it was a factory that Sloboda

10     Cokac [sic] or Kocac [sic], was there not?  I'm being --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't think your sentence is complete.  You say

12     "I believe it was a factory that Slobodan Cacak."

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Cacic [sic].

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but what about it?

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Was there not.  That was it.  I believe it's a

16     factory at Slobodan Cacak, was there not.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's just that the transcript says, I believe it

18     was.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Ah, I see.  There was.  Let me just start the

20     whole thing again and hopefully I'll get the proper pronunciation.

21        Q.   There was a factory at Cacak, was there not?

22        A.   Yes, and it still exists.

23        Q.   And that factory, was that a special-purpose industry factory or

24     was that a military factory?

25        A.   It was a special-purpose production factory, and it still

Page 12332

 1     operates in the same field nowadays.

 2        Q.   With regard to that factory using, for example, do you recall

 3     whether or not the manner in which payment was made to the factory or to

 4     workers in the factory was based on an estimation of the total number of

 5     worker hours or not?  For example, what I mean by that, is that factory

 6     would engage itself in 10.000 worker hours per month?

 7        A.   No, the payment was effected on the basis of contracts concluded

 8     with the army or someone else.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go ahead lest I forget this

10     question.  What is the difference between a military factory and a

11     special-purpose factory?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we do not make that

13     distinction.  It's called the special-purpose factory.  It's not called a

14     military factory.  You can use it in a colloquial manner, but in official

15     documents and within the system itself it is called the special-purpose

16     production.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The reason I'm asking is because Mr. Guy-Smith

18     asked you if this factory at Cacak was a special-purpose industry factory

19     or a military factory, and you said no, it was a special-purpose

20     production factory.  You didn't say what is a military factory or that

21     means one and the same thing.  You said no, it is a special purpose.  So

22     I thought maybe there is a difference.  There is no difference.  Thank

23     you.

24             You may proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.  Thank you.

Page 12333

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no difference.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 3        Q.   In your answer on page 3, lines 24 and 25, you said:

 4             "No, the payment was effected on the payment of contracts

 5     concluded with the army or someone else."

 6             With regard to the second part of that answer "or someone else,"

 7     could you identify for us who you mean by "someone else."  What people or

 8     institutions are you referring to when you say "someone else"?

 9        A.   Allow me to say a few sentences if order to clarify it better.

10        Q.   If you could answer my question, and if it needs clarification

11     thereafter, that would be fine.

12             When you say "someone else," who are you referring to?

13        A.   The -- a special-purpose factory is allowed to conclude contracts

14     locally or abroad with anyone for the purpose of producing items in that

15     factory.

16        Q.   And with regard to this special-purpose factory concluding

17     contracts locally or abroad outside of the army, could you identify for

18     us in your experience those kinds of institutions that the

19     special-purpose industry concluded contracts with, if you know.

20        A.   As far as I can remember and later on when I worked in that area,

21     they were allowed, for instance, to conclude a contract with the police

22     or with any party involved in All People's Defence, civilian defence, or

23     for that matter with anyone on the market, because this special-purpose

24     factory didn't produce only military equipment.  It manufactured other

25     devices as well, because this particular factory had several plants.

Page 12334

 1        Q.   With regard to the general proposition here as opposed to the

 2     specific special-purpose factory that we're referring to, when you

 3     indicate that they were allowed to conclude a contract with any party

 4     involved in All People's Defence, you introduced a concept that we have

 5     heretofore not discussed.  Could you tell us what All People's Defence

 6     refers to?

 7        A.   Yes, you're right.  It's a rather broader term, but what I'm

 8     talking in particular is that each republic had its own organisation

 9     involved in - how shall I put it? - in a system aimed at preparations for

10     potential defence.  Within that system they had assets that were actually

11     military assets, and for that particular segment they were allowed to

12     conclude contracts directly with Sloboda.

13        Q.   When you say that each republic had its own organisation involved

14     in the system -- in a system aimed at preparations for potential defence,

15     are you referring to all of the republics that were part of the SFRY?

16        A.   Yes.  All the republics had their own respective Territorial

17     Defence staffs.

18        Q.   And was that in -- was that in addition to the JNA?

19        A.   Yes, with the JNA.

20        Q.   You've indicated, yes, with the JNA, and my question is slightly

21     different -- different.  Was the system of All Peoples Defence that you

22     have discussed that was able to contract with the special-purpose

23     industries a system that existed independently or - and I'll put it that

24     way - independently of the JNA?

25        A.   Yes, that is exactly what I wanted to say.  According to

Page 12335

 1     regulations governing the special-purpose production, it was laid out how

 2     this had to be done.  Each factory had an annual production plant and

 3     such plant envisaged what the factory was going to do in the following

 4     year, and these plants had to be approved by the SSNO and its

 5     administration for research, administration, and production which was an

 6     integral part of the SSNO, which is the Federal Secretariat for National

 7     Defence.  So in a way it was still under the supervision of the SSNO and

 8     had to be done with their permission.

 9        Q.   Let me ask you this:  After the break-up of the former

10     Yugoslavia, when the SFRY became the FRY, with regard to this specific

11     issue that we're discussing here in terms of the regulations governing

12     the special-purpose production, was that special-purpose production under

13     the authority of the Ministry of Interior, the Ministry of Defence, the

14     police, the federal government, the army?

15        A.   The special-purpose production remained under the authority of

16     the Federal Ministry of Defence.

17        Q.   And after the break-up of the former Yugoslavia when SFRY became

18     FRY.  Was there or was there not a division of authority between the

19     army, the VJ, and the MOD?  And by that I mean was the VJ subordinated to

20     the SDC and independent of the Ministry of Defence?

21        A.   I believe that that was the case, but I can't remember the exact

22     time-line, but I know that we were part of the system as you have

23     described it.

24        Q.   Very well.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just ask a question while Mr. Guy-Smith is

Page 12336

 1     sorting himself out.

 2             You've just told us that the special-purpose industries were

 3     under the authority of the Ministry of Defence, and you did mention this

 4     yesterday as well, but yesterday you also at some other stage, and I'm

 5     not able to give you the page number now unless I have to search for it,

 6     you also said that the special-purpose industry could not sell products

 7     to other people or other institutions without your permission.  And when

 8     you said your permission, I understood you to mean your administration

 9     under which you worked.  Did I mishear you or did I hear you well?

10        A.   Yes, that was precisely the case.  I said a minute ago that

11     annual production plans were drawn up for the special-purpose industry.

12     These plans had to be approved by the Ministry of Defence.  Now, what was

13     contained in that plan and who the potential clients were going to be

14     depended on what was envisaged in the plan.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you talked of your administration, are you

16     not -- were you not talking of your administration within the army?  I

17     thought -- the impression I've got was that you were saying these

18     special-purpose industries are under the Ministry of Defence and they're

19     not under the army, but as I say, yesterday I thought I heard you say

20     that for them to make these contracts, they've got to do so with the

21     approval of the administration, of which you were a head, in the army.

22     Yesterday, if you will look at page 71 of yesterday's transcript,

23     line 22, it might perhaps be of help.

24             Right.  You say if -- I'll start at line 19 of page 71 of

25     yesterday:

Page 12337

 1             "As much as I'm able to reply to your question, I don't think any

 2     of them concluded any contract directly.  I think it all had to go

 3     through the SDPR.  That is to say, while I was at the head of that

 4     department, we didn't conclude a single contract -- or, rather, no

 5     factory concluded a single contract with anyone without the consent of my

 6     administration or at least its approval."

 7             That's -- now, the reason I'm asking you this question is because

 8     if you have to give approval for them to conclude a contract, I cannot

 9     understand how that happens if they are not under your supervision but

10     they're under the supervision of the Ministry of Defence.

11             Do you understood my problem?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  What happened

13     was --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I would like you -- yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was due to the fact that I

16     played both roles.  So I would like to reiterate and be more specific.

17     When I spoke about the administration, I am talking about the

18     administration that existed when I was assistant minister for military

19     economic activities, and I spoke about myself in that capacity, and not

20     in the capacity of the head of the administration within the

21     General Staff.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  That's all the explanation I

23     wanted, just to make sure which is which.  Okay.

24             Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:

Page 12338

 1        Q.   A moment ago you mentioned the issue of the annual production

 2     plan, and I'd like to take a moment and see if I understand how the

 3     annual production plan operated.  And perhaps if you could explain it,

 4     that would be better than me leading you here, which is could you tell us

 5     what is envisioned in the annual production plan for a specific factory?

 6        A.   Within the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, which later

 7     became the Federal Ministry of Defence, there is an administration

 8     called -- an administration for research, development, and production,

 9     and there's also another administration called the procurement

10     administration.

11             Of course, what we discussed yesterday with regard to the budget,

12     the army and the General Staff specified their requirements and put them

13     forward to the Ministry of Defence for the coming year, and they say that

14     according to the funds available, we would like to procure this and that

15     from the special-purpose industry.  So the research, development, and

16     production administration in the Federal Ministry of Defence establishes

17     contacts with special-purpose factories, and tell them that they had been

18     given specific requirements by the General Staff.  Therefore, can you

19     tell us and give us a quotation with regard to the capacity that you have

20     for producing the required items.

21             It's a dynamic process.  They respond and explain their capacity.

22     So if that is feasible, then the procurement administration concludes

23     contracts for those items for the following year.

24             Other capacities that are insufficient or are rather -- or are,

25     rather, not employed, they intend to employ them to produce items that

Page 12339

 1     they would be offering on the market.  They also have to do this through

 2     co-operation and inform the administration that there were requirements

 3     for such products from abroad.  So this is how it operated.

 4        Q.   So if I -- if I understand your answer correctly, there are

 5     within the annual production plan two separate and distinct areas in

 6     which any given special-purpose industry produces material which is

 7     military in nature.  One is for -- pursuant to the discussion with the

 8     MOD, and the Ministry of Defence's determination of what the requirements

 9     are, and the other is what I'm going to call generically the private

10     sector, which could include institutions, other armies, other nation

11     states.

12        A.   Yes.  That's how it worked, but their involvement in production

13     for other states and other army nevertheless had to be effected through

14     the Ministry of Defence -- or, rather, the SDPR.  However when, it came

15     to the civilian sector, it was up to them to conclude independent

16     contracts.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now I want to see if you will confirm or not, since

18     you've talked about special-purpose industries, whether or not the

19     following rules apply.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And if we could have on the screen 3372D.  And

21     just if -- we need to look at the first page in both languages and then

22     we'll move on.

23        Q.   Okay.  We don't have the first page in English, so let me ask you

24     this question:  Could you, looking at the B/C/S part of the screen, tell

25     us what that says.  What is it?

Page 12340

 1        A.    "This rule on military institutions which operate on the

 2     principle of obtaining and division of revenues."

 3        Q.   And if we could go to B/C/S pages 29 -- first of all, if we go to

 4     B/C/S page 23.  And with regard to one of the issues that we have been

 5     speaking about generally, looking at the bottom of the page, which is

 6     circled, it says -- that's Article 90, and is that the rule with regard

 7     to how gross income is to be determined?

 8        A.   Yes, but this applies to merely institutions which base their

 9     business on generating and distributing income.  This is not

10     special-purpose industry.  These are overhaul [realtime transcript read

11     in error "overall"] institutions that we discussed yesterday.

12        Q.   I see.  And with regard to Article 90, I note that it has the

13     term "JNA" here in section number 1.  Was the same rule used when the JNA

14     transformed into the VJ or were there different rules that were used at

15     that time?

16        A.   The same rule and the same instructions applied containing the

17     same postulates.

18        Q.   And those postulates are:

19             "The total gross is verified from charged income by the

20     institution from:

21             "1. Realisation of products, services and goods for the needs

22     of," and I'm going to put in here the generically army.

23             "2. By purchasing products, goods and services on domestic and

24     foreign markets."

25             Right?  That's what it says?

Page 12341

 1        A.   You're right.  You're absolutely right.

 2        Q.   Heeding the --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Apologies for the interruption, Your Honour.

 5     There's just a mistake in the transcript at page 11, line 23.  I think

 6     that should be a reference to "overhaul institutions" not "overall

 7     institutions."

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.  I was wondering what that

 9     refers to.  Even overhaul I still don't understand, but anyway.  Yes,

10     Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Heeding the Court's previous admonition, we can

12     take this document off the screen at this time since I've read the

13     entirety of the language.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  May we remove -- the

15     document may be removed.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:

17        Q.   Now, could you do us a kindness of explaining the differences

18     between what we've just discussed in the special-purpose industry?

19        A.   I do not understand your question, sir.

20        Q.   My question is is the same formulation used with the

21     special-purpose industry as was used in Article 90 that we just

22     discussed?  Or was there a different formulation?

23        A.   The procedure was very similar.  The technology of the procedure

24     was very similar.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now, when you say the technology of the procedure was very

Page 12342

 1     similar I'm at a bit of a loss in terms of what you mean by the

 2     technology of the procedure.  If you could be of some assistance there?

 3        A.   I did try a minute ago to explain in that a company which is

 4     supposed to draw its plans for the next year, and if that company

 5     performs within the special-purpose industry, receives a task from the

 6     Ministry of Defence which is based on the requirements of the military.

 7        Q.   Let me interrupt you.  Perhaps the difficulty we're having is

 8     with the word "technology."  The use of that word in that particular --

 9     in that particular answer, I think, was causing -- was causing me some

10     difficulty.  I would -- I probably would have used another word or

11     perhaps its translation.  We understood your answer previously.  But now

12     that the President has a look of query on his face, so I'm going to stop.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought your question still was you want to know

14     from the witness how the total gross is verified from -- for purposes of

15     special-purpose industries.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That is an excellent way of putting the question

17     that I want to get, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you said the difference --

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yeah, that's right.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- he didn't know what you're talking about.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's correct.

22        Q.   Taking Judge Moloto's question and adopting it with his

23     permission, could you tell us whether or not the article that we just

24     read, Article 90, is the same manner in which the total gross is verified

25     for purpose of the special-purpose industry or was a different

Page 12343

 1     methodology used?

 2        A.   I will repeat.  The principle was not identical but it was

 3     similar.  Firstly, plans are drawn based on the requirements of the army,

 4     and then when it comes to the other elements --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm going to interrupt you, sir.  We understand

 6     that.  That is the plan of production.  How is gross income verified?  Do

 7     you -- for purpose of special-purpose industries, do you verify it by

 8     what has been sold minus what has been purchased, you know?  As Article

 9     90 says.  Article 90 is telling us how you verify gross income is cost of

10     sales minus -- or from where -- what is sold finally.  Am I confusing you

11     further?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm an engineer and I have problem

13     with finances and how financial plans are drawn.  For example, I want to

14     produce a hundred tanks.  I conclude a contract with the authorities as

15     to how many tanks they're going to finance, and they pay me, and what I

16     receive I spend on production materials, electricity, salaries and all of

17     the other costs that are incurred within the production process.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do you -- how do you then determine your gross

19     profit?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not very well-versed in

21     finances.  However, I assume that in the course of the production if I

22     don't use all the materials, if I don't use all the money for the

23     salaries, whatever costs that I've -- that I've had I deduct from what

24     has been contracted and that's my profit.  Maybe our systems differ.  In

25     my system workers' payments are also costs.  Maybe in your system it's

Page 12344

 1     different.  I don't know.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We're not talking systems -- different systems

 3     here.  All we want to know what happened in the former Yugoslavia.

 4             You see, Article 90 that we looked at just now told us how gross

 5     profit is determined for overhaul industries.  Mr. Guy-Smith wants to

 6     know how the same thing was determined for special-purpose industries.

 7     You say the principle is similar but you articulate it differently from

 8     where it stands in Article 90.  This is the reason we are having this

 9     discussion, because we're trying to clarify how gross profit was

10     determined for special-purpose industries and how differently that was

11     from Article 90, which is for overall industries.

12             If you do know.  If you don't know -- as you say, you're an

13     engineer, sorry, you don't know, and you can just tell us you don't know.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me say I don't know then.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Kodzopeljic.

16             Sorry.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Perfectly fine.

18        Q.   I will take note of your proclamation you're an engineer and

19     adjust some of our discussion accordingly.

20             Were you ever made aware in 1994 of the Supreme Defence Council

21     deciding to organise foreign trade in weapons and military equipment

22     through one state-owned enterprise under the absolute control of the

23     federal government and the Federal Ministry of Defence?  Were you ever

24     made aware of whether that happened --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

Page 12345

 1             MR. THOMAS:  That's a leading question, Your Honours.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  He can say, yes, I was made aware of it or I

 3     wasn't aware of it.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  That makes it a leading question.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, here we go into the argument of that was

 6     leading or not.  I'll put it -- I can ask:  To your knowledge did the

 7     Supreme Defence Council ever conclude that they would organise foreign

 8     trade in weapons and military equipment through one state-owned

 9     enterprise.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]  Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do apologise, Your Honour.  I was rephrasing

13     the question.  I was taking his comment into mind.  I was trying to

14     rephrase the question.  You're right, there was an objection.  I do

15     apologise.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All right.  Okay.  If you want to rephrase, go

17     ahead.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:

19        Q.   To your knowledge, did the supreme council --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Defence council.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Supreme Defence Council in 1994 ever conclude that they would

23     organise foreign trade in weapons and military equipment through one

24     state-owned enterprise under the control of the federal government and

25     the Federal Ministry of Defence.  And if you are, that's fine, and if

Page 12346

 1     you're not, that's fine.

 2        A.   I'm not aware of that decision, but I do know that that company

 3     has existed for 30 or 40 years now.

 4        Q.   That's not my question, and you've answered it by saying you're

 5     not aware of the decision and I thank you.

 6             I'd like to move back now to the area of material lists, and

 7     before we go into any specific material lists, one of the things that we

 8     were discussing yesterday was material lists and accounting and the

 9     relationship between the accounting departments and the material lists.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And if we could have D384.  And I'm going to be

11     going to B/C/S page 10, and my understanding is that the English is

12     1D12-0549.

13        Q.   Now, what I'd like you to do -- can you see the screen or do you

14     need to have it a little bit larger?

15        A.   It has to be a bit larger, please.

16        Q.   And I'm focusing -- I'm going to be focusing your attention on

17     Articles 80, 81 initially.  And I'd just like you to take a quick glance

18     at Article 80 and 81, if you could.  And if you could tell us when you've

19     finished reviewing the document.

20        A.   As far as I'm concerned, you can go ahead.

21        Q.   Thank you.  With regard to Article 80, is this one of the

22     articles that regulated this particular issue, and by that I mean the

23     issue of material accounting documentation?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And with regard to Article 81, if you could specifically take a

Page 12347

 1     look down towards the bottom part of the page.  There are a series of

 2     numbers that discuss what each material accounting document -- and here

 3     it says obligatory contains, and after that there are some eight

 4     requirements.  Do you see that?

 5        A.   Yes.  It is all spelled out very correctly and very precisely.

 6        Q.   And with regard to those eight requirements, are the requirements

 7     that are contained in Article 81 requirements under which -- under which

 8     the various institutions had to operate as regards the informations to be

 9     contained in any accounting document?

10        A.   Precisely so.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could go to Article 85, both in the B/C/S

12     and in the English.  And in the B/C/S I think we're going to have to move

13     to the next page, I believe.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And if we can enlarge the English a little bit,

15     please.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:

17        Q.   First of all, just to make sure that we're on the same page, if

18     you could tell me what the heading is before we reach Article 85.  What

19     does -- what does that say in Serbian?

20        A.   "1.1 Material List."

21        Q.   And looking at Article 85, going down 1, 2, 3, paragraphs, I note

22     that there is a form number which is MP-20.  Is that the form that we

23     were discussing yesterday?

24        A.   Yes.  MP-20.  This MP stands for material business transactions,

25     and we discussed it yesterday, yes.

Page 12348

 1        Q.   I believe you explained to us that's what MP stood for yesterday.

 2     And there are a series of -- a series of -- what seem to be requirements

 3     under 1 and 2.  Could you take a look at that in -- in Article 85, that

 4     deal with both the sender and the receiver.

 5        A.   Precisely so.

 6        Q.   And with regard to -- with regard to this particular article, is

 7     this the article that guided and ruled the sending and receiving of

 8     material and what was required with -- with the list that was

 9     accompanying that material?

10        A.   Yes.  This is how things were regulated, and other situations

11     concerning property and goods were regulated by this.  In any case, this

12     regulates what senders are supposed to do.

13        Q.   And anyone else apart from senders?

14        A.   And those who received goods and material and all those within

15     their authority.

16        Q.   Thank you.  If we could now take a look at Article 87.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You'll have to go to the next page.

18        Q.   And with regard to -- I see.  Article 87 is on two pages, so

19     you -- the beginning of Article 87 is on -- is at the bottom of this page

20     in the lower right-hand side.  If you just take a quick look at that, and

21     when you've finished reading it, if we could move over to the second page

22     in B/C/S.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And I'd like you to, if you could, focus your attention on the

25     second paragraph for a moment.  And does this paragraph describe the

Page 12349

 1     manner of approval, certification, and recordation with regard to

 2     material?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And finally, Article 88.

 5        A.   Yes.  I've read it.

 6        Q.   Yesterday we were talking about copies and white copies and blue

 7     copies and pink copies, and I don't know whether we did terribly well in

 8     that regard in terms of making things clear to the Chamber, but with

 9     regard to the rules and regulations contained in Article 88, are these

10     the rules that apply to the manner in which material lists for sending,

11     for receiving, and for recordation are to be followed?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And the very last sentence of Article 88 -- and I just want to

14     make sure that we have the same translation.  Could you tell us what the

15     very last sentence in the second paragraph says in Article 88.

16        A.   "Material lists of the sender and the recipient are combined and

17     archived together."

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would move the admission of this document.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

21             MR. THOMAS:  It's a matter that could easily be rectified, sir,

22     but at the moment I have a relevance objection.  We just need to know

23     that these rules were in force in the FRY during the period of the

24     indictment as opposed to being applicable at any other period.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:

Page 12350

 1        Q.   Were these rules applied and in force in the FRY during the --

 2     during 1993, through and including the end of your tenure?

 3        A.   Could the page be moved to the left to display the number of the

 4     "Official Military Gazette" and the year of its publication.  12 October

 5     1995 this is.

 6             A similar instruction was in effect earlier.  Maybe the

 7     article --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Guy-Smith please switch off his

 9     microphone.  We can't hear the witness.  Thank you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe the relevant articles did not

11     bear the same number, but the rules were very similar.  Maybe you don't

12     understand what the "Military Official Gazette" is.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:

14        Q.   Why don't you tell us?

15        A.   All regulations published by the military were published in a

16     gazette called the "Official Military Gazette," and everybody was

17     duty-bound to refer to it and to use it.  All amendments were also

18     publicised and defined once they were published in the Official Gazette.

19        Q.   And with regard to the information and requirements that are

20     contained in the document that we've been discussing, is it my

21     understanding that of those requirements and that information is

22     something that was substantially similar?

23             I'll rephrase.  I'll rephrase, I'll rephrase, I'll rephrase.

24             With regard to the years prior to 1995, what were the

25     requirements, if you know, concerning material lists and accounting?

Page 12351

 1        A.   I can't say that these regulations were 100 per cent identical,

 2     but when it comes to the issue of material lists specifically, I can say

 3     that this regulation was completely identical.  There was no difference

 4     both in terms of substance and the subject of the regulation.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I move the document's admission.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 7     please be given an exhibit number -- I beg your pardon.  It is already

 8     admitted.  It is D384.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, then, we were fighting over something that

10     didn't need to be fought about.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you asked for it to come on the screen, you

12     called it by the -- by its exhibit number, D384.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:

14        Q.   If you could go to your binder, please.  I'd like you to take a

15     look at what I believe should be the first document in your binder, which

16     is P511.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Taking a look at this document, I have a couple of questions.

19             Initially the date of the document is the 26th of November, 1993,

20     and there -- the document discusses a barter agreement between Pretis and

21     Kragujevac Institute for Repairs.  What is meant by "barter agreement"?

22        A.   This is not a contract.  This is just permission given by the

23     Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska issued to Pretis Holding,

24     allowing them to conclude a contract with the depot in Kragujevac, and we

25     see beneath the specification and the subject of the contract.  So

Page 12352

 1     they're just giving their approval for this contract to be concluded.

 2        Q.   Could you tell us what, if anything, this has to do with the

 3     Chief of the General Staff of the VJ, if you know.

 4        A.   This document is not directly related to the Chief of the General

 5     Staff.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It can be taken off the screen.  If we could have

 8     on the screen for a moment P579.  No.  I apologise.  That's wrong.  We'll

 9     get to P579 in a minute or two.  Could we have on the screen P573.

10        Q.   Looking at this document and looking at the left-hand side of the

11     document which you've described to us is the area of the document which

12     is to be filled in by the sender, with regard to box number 4, which

13     identifies the name and address of the sender.  Could you tell us what

14     information is contained in that box, if any?

15        A.   Could you please enlarge it a little bit more if possible.  Can

16     you scroll down.  I would like to see box number 4.

17        Q.   You're going to have to scroll up, I think.  There you go.

18        A.   I'm sorry, I have forgotten your question.

19        Q.   My question is what information, if any, is contained in box

20     number 4, the name and address of the sender.

21        A.   It says "Name and place of sender," however, there is no

22     information about that.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That document can be taken off the screen.  If we

25     could now see -- I'm sorry.  You know what, since it's still up there.

Page 12353

 1     And if we could go to the bottom of the document, all the way to the

 2     bottom.

 3        Q.   Looking at the left-hand side of the document, you had indicated

 4     to us yesterday that there were a number of areas in the bottom of this

 5     document that had to be signed by responsible individuals in order to

 6     have accurate information.  Do you see any signature in boxes number 37,

 7     38, or 39?

 8        A.   No, there are no signatures.

 9        Q.   And with regard to box number 32 which has information concerning

10     the number, date, and signature, do you see any entries in that box?

11     That, once again, is on the left-hand side of the screen.

12        A.   On the left-hand side of the screen there's no number and no date

13     and no signature, which indicates that we don't know who approved this.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And with regard to the rules and regulations that we

15     were discussing earlier as they relate to the issue of a stamp from the

16     sender, do you see any stamp that indicates that the sender has stamped

17     the document to verify or approve its contents?

18        A.   No, I don't.  And a stamp should be affixed next to the signature

19     of the person in charge.  Since we don't have any signature, there's no

20     stamp either.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we see the next document, which is P572.

23        Q.   Looking at P572, with regard to -- if we could move over a little

24     bit more to the -- no, we're okay.

25             Looking at that same box again, the name and address of the

Page 12354

 1     sender, I note that there's some information contained in that box.

 2        A.   As far as I can see, it says GS VJ, which stands for General

 3     Staff of the Yugoslav Army, and then in parenthesis, Ladjevci, which is a

 4     place name.

 5        Q.   Looking at this particular entry, is that the type of entry that

 6     is sufficient for your purposes in determining the name and the address

 7     of the sender?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Whether or not it's sufficient for the witness's

10     purposes is irrelevant, Your Honours.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard -- let me rephrase.

12        Q.   With regard to the issue that we have been discussing previously,

13     which is the importance of the accuracy of these documents for purposes

14     of planning your budget, looking at this particular section, section

15     number 4, does this give you sufficient information upon which you can

16     rely for your audit?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

18             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I don't recall the witness

19     testifying about an audit.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm using the term "audit" in a generic sense and

21     by that I mean information that you would rely upon for purposes of

22     planning your budget.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

24             MR. THOMAS:  I'm just concerned, Your Honour, because at some

25     point yesterday Mr. Kodzopeljic said, "We don't rely on the material

Page 12355

 1     lists for the preparation of the budget."  They rely on other

 2     information.  So if my learned friend wants to phrase the question in

 3     that way, he will need to phrase it in a way which puts it back to

 4     whatever it is that Mr. Kodzopeljic needed the information from the

 5     material lists for.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 7        Q.   With regard to the question of whether or not you had full and

 8     complete information concerning preparation of your budget, is the

 9     question of who sends and who receives any particular item of importance

10     to you?

11             And excuse me, before you -- before you answer that question, I

12     think I'm going to have to take issue with what Mr. Thomas said.

13     Yesterday, at page 12280, the following question was asked and the

14     following answer was given:

15                 "Q.  With regard to the issue that we were discussing

16     earlier, that being the issue of planning the budget, what importance, if

17     any, do the material lists have with regard to those plans?"

18             Answer commencing on line 12:

19                 "A.  The material lists are important and on the basis of

20     these lists the officer in charge drawing up a plan knows exactly what he

21     has at his disposal, knows what's coming according to norms applicable to

22     each unit and to each type of asset, and on the basis of that he can be

23     able to draw up plans for the next year or for the next five-year period

24     as the financial plans were usually made for."

25             So I would take issue with Mr. Thomas's position.

Page 12356

 1             MR. THOMAS:  I note the time, Your Honours.  I wonder if I could

 2     just have a moment to consider that.  I'll discuss the matter with my

 3     learned friend, and we can have an agreed position.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I apologise for going over the time.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will take a break and come back at quarter to.

 6     Court adjourned.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Mr. Registrar, if we could go back to the exhibit

11     that we had on the screen before the break, which I believe was P572.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think on that exhibit you -- Mr. Thomas was

13     going to discuss something with you during the break.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We've had a discussion.  I think we've come to an

15     agreement.  I'm going to -- I'm going to venture a question and hope that

16     the question ventured is the agreement we've made.  I think it is.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I see Mr. Thomas is smiling, so I take that

18     as an agreement.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:

20        Q.   Going back to box number 4, reviewing the information that is

21     contained in box number 4, what difficulties, if any, does the

22     information that is contained on this exhibit cause for purposes of your

23     planning?

24        A.   In my view, as it is written here, what it says here, GS VJ

25     Ladjevci, indicates that the information is insufficient, because I would

Page 12357

 1     say that the handwriting is the same as that of the person who has

 2     received the item.

 3        Q.   Very well.  I'm not going to focus on some other areas in this

 4     particular exhibit, but I would like to ask you one question, which is

 5     going to box number 23.  There are two entries.  Looking at the second

 6     entry concerning 90-millimetre M-79.  I'm looking at the B/C/S copy, and

 7     in the B/C/S copy I don't see any information in the box called "Category

 8     and Year of Production."  Do you see any information there?  Let me just

 9     ask you that question.  Do you see any information there?

10        A.   No, there's no information.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would note, Your Honours, that in the English

12     copy the number "1" is inserted into the English copy.  I don't know

13     where that information comes from.  That clearly is not an issue

14     concerning translation.  It may be an issue concerning something else,

15     but I think that should be noted with regard to this exhibit.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Noted.  There is something else I also do note,

17     that in -- in the box number 28, in the English there is 1.936, which I

18     don't see in the B/C/S.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's correct, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And in the B/C/S there is a number 50, which I

21     don't see in the English.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would agree with you entirely.  So obviously

23     there's some difficulties in terms of where this -- where the information

24     came from in the English copy.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And where the information went to from the -- the

Page 12358

 1     50 from the B/C/S copy.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would agree.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Sir, if it's of any assistance, plainly there has

 5     been some error in transcription.  The Prosecution accepts that what

 6     should be in the English version is that 1 shouldn't be there, and

 7     instead of the 1.936, there should be a 50 in column number 28.  That's

 8     clear.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any comment, Mr. Guy-Smith?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No comment at this time.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may carry on.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  If we could have now on the screen

13     P574.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, I would like to go down to the

15     bottom of this form before we remove it.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I note that -- if we can scroll up the B/C/S,

18     please, a little bit.  Sorry.  Can you move it the opposite direction

19     first?  Okay.  Scroll it up.

20             Now, I don't see anything in boxes 37, 38, and 39.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's correct, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In both the B/C/S and in the English.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's correct, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So I would have expected that an official of the

25     General Staff of the VJ should have signed there as the sender.

Page 12359

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Assuming that the information is correct in box

 2     number 4, that one can assume that the General Staff, then one would

 3     think that that would be signed by someone at the General Staff.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what I'm saying.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So --

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think this presents a series of difficulties in

 8     terms of what the exhibit actually stands for and how it can be relied

 9     upon.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then who --

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I just think there are a series of --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm just making observations --

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- factual observations at this stage.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Absolutely.  Understood.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I don't see the signature of the sender or

17     even his or her stamp, the stamp that I see here, if one looks at the

18     signed part, it looks like there's a stamp of the recipient.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's my -- that would be my best understanding

20     of what we have -- what we have been told, yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you confirm that, Mr. Thomas?

22             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir, that's correct.  We have no signature or

23     stamp for the sender.  We have the signature and stamp of the receiver.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Okay.  Now you called for what

25     else, Mr. --

Page 12360

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe I called for --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  574.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  574, yes.

 4        Q.   In 574, I'd like to focus your attention on the upper left-hand

 5     corner of the document.  And if you could confirm for us -- once we get

 6     the B/C/S.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't have the B/C/S yet.

 8        Q.   Looking at -- looking at your copy in the binder, I'm going to be

 9     directing, and I'll just tell you where I'm going to be directing your

10     attention.  We'll wait for it to come up on the screen.  I'm going to be

11     directing your attention to the left-hand side of this particular -- ah,

12     good.  Directing your attention to the left-hand side of the sheet, would

13     you confirm that -- that none of the boxes in the left-hand corner, from

14     boxes 1 through 10, have any information in them but for box number 4?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   And with regard to the information that's contained in box number

17     4, that is similar to the information we discussed in the previous

18     exhibit of the Prosecution, P572, except that I believe the parentheses

19     have a different name in them.

20        A.   Yes, that's right.  It says "Lunjevica."

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, I would have thought that in box

22     number 2 there is some information of sorts.  "Military Post, Financial

23     Organ 4."

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe that's the -- that's the title of that

25     box.

Page 12361

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that the title of the box?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's what I understood it to be, yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My apologies.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No problem.

 5        Q.   And I take it that your answer would be the same with regard to

 6     the information that's contained in box number 4 here that you gave us in

 7     terms of P572.

 8        A.   Yes, only we have a different place name in parentheses, which is

 9     Lunjevica.

10        Q.   And with regard to the bottom left-hand part of this particular

11     document, we once again have no signatures in box -- in box number 32,

12     37, 38, 39, nor do we have a stamp.  Am I correct in that regard?

13        A.   Yes, you are, and I can see the same situation in the document in

14     front of me.  But, please, nomenclature number is incorrect, and in the

15     previous document there was no such number at all.  So practically one

16     cannot know in any way whatsoever what particular item has been delivered

17     or issued.  I'm talking about box number 24.

18        Q.   Thank you for that addition.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could go to 575.  We take that off the

20     screen and go to the next document, which is P575.

21        Q.   Now, with regard to this particular document, once again let's

22     start with box number 4.  Does -- does that box contain information which

23     causes difficulty in planning or does not cause difficulty in planning?

24        A.   There is enough information there.

25        Q.   And going to the bottom of the document on the left-hand side.  I

Page 12362

 1     note there seems to be evidence of some stamp, a part of stamp which is

 2     legible, and there is a name contained in this particular document in box

 3     number 38; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, okay.

 5        Q.   Now, I'd like to go back just for a moment.  Could you -- to box

 6     number 4.  Could you tell us what you can see in the B/C/S version of box

 7     number 4, what it says?

 8        A.   What I can see is "Mrsac Kraljevo."

 9        Q.   Thank you very much.  I would note that in the English exhibit,

10     P575, the number "5?92" has been inserted with regard to the information

11     contained in box number 4, and also at the top of P575 it indicates --

12     excuse me.  Well, it indicates in English, says -- there's handwritten

13     entered "Tisca."

14             Looking at the top right section of the form P575, do you see any

15     handwriting upon it with the name Tisca?

16        A.   Well, I don't have the English version, do I.

17        Q.   The B/C/S version.

18        A.   No, I don't see that in the Serbian version.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20        A.   Again I apologise.  The nomenclature number is not correct under

21     24.

22        Q.   We'll get to that, but thank you.

23        A.   So it's impossible to know --

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  He's referring to the box number 24.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And he made the similar comment with the previous

Page 12363

 1     exhibit.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  He did, yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What I didn't understand and I would now like to

 4     understand is what do you mean, sir, it is not correct?  What is wrong

 5     with it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, all the property

 7     belonging to the JNA was listed and could be located in an automated

 8     information system.  Everything is there, every spare part, every cannon,

 9     every tank, and each of them is identified by a 12-digit number.  Every

10     spare part on a tank, on a cannon, all of those have a 12-digit figure.

11     If that wasn't the case, nobody would know what we were talking about.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And was that the mistake also with the

13     previous document, that it didn't have a 12-digit number?  Thank you.  At

14     least now I understand what you mean by it's incorrect.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:

16        Q.   And with regard to this particular exhibit, you had discussed the

17     issue of a stamp for the -- a received stamp.  There were two stamps at

18     the bottom of the document.  Does this document have a stamp upon it in

19     B/C/S?  The B/C/S version.

20        A.   I have only one.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we now see P576.

23        Q.   Once again I'm going to be focusing your attention -- perfect.  I

24     will first focus your attention on the upper left-hand corner, and I'm

25     going to ask you the question that I asked you previously with regard to

Page 12364

 1     boxes 1 through 10.  None of the boxes are completed except for box

 2     number 4, which once again has the information contained, which is "GS

 3     VJ," and then there is a parentheses, "(Bog. Banja)."

 4        A.   Yes, you're right.  Ah, we're talking about Bogutovacka Banja.

 5     That's the only difference.

 6        Q.   And with regard to this document, I take it that your answer

 7     would be the same as with regard to the previous documents that this

 8     causes you difficulty in terms of planning.

 9        A.   Yes.  It's impossible to know what this is about.

10        Q.   And I'm now going to the bottom of the document, if we could.  I

11     see that this document, I believe, suffers from some of the same

12     infirmities that you referred to before, which is that there's no entry

13     with regard to box number 32, 37, 38, and 39, and there is no stamp.

14        A.   You are right.

15        Q.   Now, with regard to box number 29, after the entry of "296," do

16     you see any entry in that box?  Is there any writing at all within that

17     box?

18        A.   Nothing in my copy.

19        Q.   I notice in the English translation there is the following

20     insertion:  "/? bullet/."  I'm just noting that so that the Chamber and

21     Mr. Thomas are aware of the distinctions in the B/C/S version and the

22     version and the version that is called the translated version.

23             I also would note and it would be of some help here which is with

24     regard to the next entry that concerns 152 -- which says "152 mm," there

25     is a number in the B/C/S version which is 192; correct?

Page 12365

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And I would also note that that number is not existent in the

 3     English translation of P576.

 4        A.   I again draw your attention to the fact that the nomenclature

 5     number is not complete.  I insist on that.

 6        Q.   Understood.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Again, Your Honours no, dispute from the

 8     Prosecution.  That doesn't appear to be any abbreviation such as is

 9     referred to in column 29, and that that could be certainly disregarded.

10     And again, no dispute from the Prosecution that the number 192 should be

11     in column number 28 of the English.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard to --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was just going to ask under number 24, box

17     number 24 --

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  Yes, I'm here.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That item that Mr. Guy-Smith referred to, 152 mm

20     round A-20, I do not see a 12-digit number there.  Do you have any

21     comment to make?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't see that.  152 A-20.

23     Is that it?  No, I don't know what this is.  I don't know.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And -- and the item above it, it's got in the

25     English a nine-digit number.  Looking at the B/C/S, I see that before the

Page 12366

 1     nine digits that is a smudge.  Do you have any comment on that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my copy there is a smudge, then

 3     there is some space, and after that there is TFG, which is a kind of a

 4     grenade.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  TFG.  I thought the TFG is in the lower box, the

 6     one you -- the 152 box that you say you can't decipher.  Do you see a TFG

 7     in the first box under 24, or do you see TFG in the second box under 24?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Box 24, under 2.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If we could now go to

11     P577.

12        Q.   Once again referring your attention to the upper left-hand

13     corner.  I would ask you the same question I've asked you before

14     concerning the previous exhibits of the Prosecution, and with regard to

15     the first ten boxes, there is no information except for the information

16     which is contained in box number 4, which says "General Staff VJ."

17        A.   Yes.  That's the only thing I can see, the "General Staff VJ" in

18     its abbreviated form.

19        Q.   And does this cause you the same difficulties that you referred

20     to in your previous testimony concerning the immediately preceding

21     exhibits that we have discussed?

22        A.   The same difficulty, yes.

23        Q.   And with regard to the issue in the lower left-hand corner,

24     specifically boxes 32, 37, 38, 39, would you confirm that there is no

25     information contained in those boxes?  And would you --

Page 12367

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   -- confirm that there is no stamp?

 3        A.   No stamp either.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could now see P579.

 6        Q.   Now, P579 has some entries in those areas that I've been

 7     referring to previously.  There is an entry in -- I believe it's the box

 8     immediately to the right of number 6, which is a date which says --

 9     there's an entry there.  Could you tell us what that says?

10        A.   No, I can't.

11        Q.   Can you see that there's some typewriting in that area or some --

12        A.   Well, yes, as far as I can tell.

13        Q.   And there is below that some more typewriting, some more area

14     which is in black.  Can you identify what that says for us?

15        A.   I believe that it denotes military post 9808.  This is what it

16     says.  If you're referring to that particular box.

17        Q.   That would be box number 4.  I'm actually referring to above box

18     number 4.  Above box number 4 in the area which I think there is the box

19     for place, which is box number 11.  And there seems to be some

20     typewriting there.  Can you identify what that is?

21        A.   No, I can't.

22        Q.   Before we get down to the -- let's do it the same way that we've

23     done the other ones.

24             At the bottom, on the left-hand side, their seems to be a

25     signature that can be seen, and there also seems to be a stamp.  Would

Page 12368

 1     you agree with that?

 2        A.   Yes.  Something of the kind is there, but I cannot see either the

 3     stamp or the signature.  I can't discern any of those.

 4        Q.   And with regard since we've been talking about the issue of

 5     nomenclature in terms of number 24, here there seems to be some -- under

 6     24 there seem to be these 12-digit --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thirteen.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   These 13 digits that are the nomenclature digits which you

10     discussed with us yesterday?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   If we could go to --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you comment on the fact that these are 13

14     and not 12?

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:

16        Q.   These are 13 numbers, not 12.  I said 12 and there are 13

17     numbers; correct?  Looking at the document.

18        A.   Actually, there are 12.  I don't know what the 13th means.

19        Q.   So looking at the document itself in response to what we're

20     discussing, there are 13 numbers here.  We have 4, a dash 4, and then --

21        A.   Yes, you're right.  You're right.

22        Q.   And you say that you don't know what 13 numbers means?  For

23     purposes of nomenclature.

24        A.   Yes.  I -- I am aware of the 12 numbers, but I'm not aware of the

25     meaning of the 13th.  I don't know what the 13th means, yes.

Page 12369

 1        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  If we could go to -- scroll up to the top

 2     of 579.  And looking in boxes number 16 which is a box that designates a

 3     number, and box number 19, a box designates a date, do you see any

 4     information contained in those two particular boxes?

 5        A.   It's not very legible.  My version is not very legible.  Yes.  I

 6     don't think so.  I don't think that there is anything there.  I don't see

 7     any information contained in there.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And if I -- and if I might for purposes of the discussion

 9     that I've been having before, I would note that in P79 in the English

10     copy there is both a number which has been inserted in box number 16 and

11     a date which has been inserted in box number 19, which are not reflected

12     in the original B/C/S document.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

14             MR. THOMAS:  That's accepted, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:

17        Q.   If we could just scroll down to the bottom of the document one

18     more time in B/C/S, on the right-hand side [Microphone not activated].

19             I'm looking at boxes number 40 and 41 in the B/C/S version.  Do

20     you see any entries there?

21        A.   Nothing in my version.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would note for the record that in the English

23     version there are inserted two names as constituting signatures on this

24     document.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you want the witness to comment on that or --

Page 12370

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  First of all, I'm --

 2             MR. THOMAS:  I would accept, sir, that there isn't anything

 3     entered in boxes 40 and 41 in the B/C/S original, but there is a

 4     signature in the box above.  Or what appears to be a signature in the box

 5     above.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] You mean box 36?

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I think that as a matter of fact, with regard

 9     to 36 it indicates signed by someone, but I'm not arguing or asking for

10     any comment with regard to that particular issue.

11             MR. THOMAS:  No.  I see that.  My learned friend is right.  I

12     would accept that boxes 40 and 41 don't contain any entry.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:

15        Q.   And with regard to signatures in those boxes, what was the

16     purpose for those signatures?

17        A.   The purpose was as follows:  People who received were either the

18     logistics platoon or somebody else, had to confirm receipt and had to

19     confirm that they filed that receipt into their MP-20 form, in their

20     chart.

21        Q.   And finally with regard to this particular exhibit of the

22     plaintiff, I note there is no stamp in the area where -- concerning these

23     boxes, boxes 40, 41, on the right-hand side.  Would you confirm that?

24        A.   I confirm that.

25        Q.   Thank you.  If we could now see P580.

Page 12371

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, can we look at box 14.  What

 2     happened to my thing?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we look at box 14, but my --

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Surely, absolutely.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- my document disappeared.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, let's get it back.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  Who is the intended recipient according to

 9     that box?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  I think we have the -- I think we

11     have the -- I think we have the wrong.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I didn't think so, Mr. --

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, no.  You're absolutely right, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, these -- this equipment, who is it being

15     delivered to according to this delivery sheet judging by box 14?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say here who the

17     equipment was delivered to.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It doesn't say.  Well, can we note then that if it

19     doesn't say in the B/C/S version, in the English version it says:  "NGS

20     VJ, STPOV 6748-1 of 12.11.1993."  "Decision" of that.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Decision," yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, my question, then, is:  Do you have any

23     comment on that entry?  I thought according to how you explained

24     yesterday, we entered the particulars of the intended receiver of the

25     equipment.  We don't write there by whose decision the document is being

Page 12372

 1     executed.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are absolutely right,

 3     Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Okay.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have that document taken off the

 8     screen and the next document, which is P580.

 9        Q.   With regard to P580, would you confirm that none of the boxes in

10     the upper left-hand corner have information of any kind in them except

11     for box number 5 which indicates a loading station, Batajnica.

12        A.   Yes, I can confirm that, and also at the very top it says

13     "Receipt."  Above all these boxes there is line which says delivery sheet

14     for receipt.

15        Q.   With regard to the information that is contained in box number

16     24, would you confirm that there are no nomenclature numbers of any sort

17     for those entries?

18        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

19        Q.   With regard to the bottom on the left hand, would you confirm, as

20     you have previously with regard to boxes 32, 37, 38, 39, there is no

21     information entered, nor is there a stamp.

22        A.   No, there is no information.  I can confirm that.

23        Q.   With regard to box number 14, a box that we spoke about on the

24     previous document, it has some information.  As I understand it, what it

25     says is the "Drina Corps Command."

Page 12373

 1        A.   I confirm that.

 2        Q.   Is there contained therein any address as to where that -- where

 3     the receiver, the Drina Corps Command, was located?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   If you know, with regard to logistic material, would logistic

 6     material be kept at the location of the Drina Corps Command wherever that

 7     may be?  And "wherever," I mean in terms of an address.

 8        A.   Well, it will have to be specified very precisely to which depot

 9     it is going or to which logistical unit it's going.

10        Q.   Okay.  And when you say "depot" or "logistical unit," is --

11     that's something, I take it, that's distinct from the Drina Corps Command

12     itself.

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   With regard to the second entry under 24, it says "7. --" I'm

15     sorry.  I believe it says "7.62 mm rounds for TT."  That's the

16     translation I have.  Do you see any unit of measure there, and

17     specifically, do you see in box 25 the number 2?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   I would -- I'd note --

20        A.   I only have "PCS," which is abbreviation.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would note for the record that the English

22     Exhibit P580 has inserted there a number 2, which does not exist on the

23     original.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. --

25             MR. THOMAS:  That's accepted, Your Honour.

Page 12374

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could go to --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go to --

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Absolutely.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under that same number, 25, in the line of 7.65 mm

 5     round for pistol, we also -- I don't see any quantity -- unit of measure,

 6     rather.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Correct.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Nor do I see anything like that under the third

 9     line, "M80 'Zolja hand-held rocket launcher' 64 mm rocket."

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's correct, yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And under 26, is there any year of

12     production?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there isn't.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you.  At the bottom under 34 and

15     32, I see no dates in the English.  Are there any dates in the -- in the

16     B/C/S?

17             Mr. Kodzopeljic.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:

19        Q.   Yes, Mr. Kodzopeljic.  The Judge asked you a question, and let me

20     reiterate the question, which is:  At the bottom under 34 and 32, I see

21     dates in the English.  Are there any dates in the B/C/S?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see no dates.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry.  I see.  My apologies, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Let me do that again, Mr. Kodzopeljic, so the record is clear

25     here.  There are no dates --

Page 12375

 1        A.   No, there are none.  Not in number 34.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  If we could have the next exhibit,

 3     which is P581.

 4        Q.   With regard to P581, can you confirm that there is information,

 5     and I'm now referring you first to the upper left-hand side of this

 6     document, in box number 6, which is the box of the date.  There is the

 7     entry "2895 Ladjevci" under the centre's VK military bookkeeping centre.

 8     In box number 4 there is an entry.  What is that entry, sir?

 9        A.   In box 6 there's a date.  Sender Ladjevci VK --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.  There are

11     a lot of numbers.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:

13        Q.   Mr. Kodzopeljic, I don't know if you had an opportunity to hear

14     the translator.  Because you are reading, usually when we read we speed

15     up, so if you could slow down, please, so the translator can hear what

16     you say.  If you can repeat what you just said, sir.

17        A.   I'll repeat.  So box number 6, the date is 22/11/93.  Next to it

18     it says:  "Senders VKC, 2895 Ladjevci."  Then in box number 7, "302."  In

19     number 8, "21," and in box 11, "Ladjevci."  This is what I have on my

20     copy.

21        Q.   I understand, and I believe that's also what we have on our copy.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Except that the number 21 is in box 9 in the

23     English, not box 8.  I think also in the -- in the B/C/S.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think it's also in box 9 on the B/C/S, Your

25     Honour.  I think he may have misspoken.  With regard to --

Page 12376

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.  It's box

 2     number 9.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 4        Q.   With regard to the information contained in box number 4, what --

 5     what information do you have there?

 6        A.   I suppose that it reads "Military post," but I can't read the

 7     entire entry.  It says 2895, and I assume that the word next to it is

 8     Ladjevci.

 9        Q.   I'd like to go to the bottom of the page, if I could, directing

10     your attention to the left-hand side.  And if we could scroll down a

11     little bit more in the B/C/S version that would be most appreciated.  Can

12     you confirm here we see evidence of a stamp, and in box 38 we see a name

13     and what seems to be the evidence of a signature.

14        A.   Yes, I can confirm.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Going -- now scrolling up and moving to the

16     right-hand side of the document.

17             First of all, as I'm looking at the right-hand side, could you

18     confirm that until we come to box number 14, which are the name and the

19     address of the receiver, there is no information which is entered into

20     this document?

21        A.   I can confirm that there is no indication of the recipient, but

22     it says that this is pursuant to a decision issued by the NGS.

23        Q.   Before we get there, before we get there, I'm saying there's no

24     information whatsoever up to that particular box.  There's information

25     contained in that box and we'll talk about that in a minute, but first of

Page 12377

 1     all, there is no information contained in any of the boxes above that.

 2     Will you confirm that, in the B/C/S version?

 3        A.   There's no information.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would note for the record that in the English

 5     version of P581, in box number 16, which there is a number inserted.  In

 6     box number 19 there is a date inserted, and there also seems to be on the

 7     right-hand side under 18 which is "Analysis, type of change," a number

 8     "175" inserted.  None of this information exists on the original B/C/S

 9     document.

10             MR. THOMAS:  That's accepted, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:

13        Q.   Now referring to box number 14.  Box number 14 of Prosecution

14     Exhibit 581 I believe suffers from the same infirmities that you

15     previously discussed when we were discussing P579, that being that the

16     information contained in this box refers to a decision, does not refer to

17     a name or an address of a receiver.  Could you confirm that?

18        A.   Yes, I confirm that.

19        Q.   Okay.  If we could now go to the bottom of the document, focusing

20     our attention on the right-hand side.  In box number 36, do you see any

21     evidence of a signature, and similarly, in box number 40, 41, or 42, do

22     you see any evidence of any signatures?

23        A.   No, I don't.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Once again would I note for purposes of the

Page 12378

 1     record that with regard to P581, that in the English iteration of this

 2     document, in box number 32 it indicates "/signed/," and in box number 40

 3     there is an indication that says "/signed/."

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said in the first box was box?

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  36.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  That's accepted in relation to box 40, Your Honours,

 7     but I seem to recall that in relation to box number 36, when Mr. Lukic

 8     and I were dealing with these documents earlier in the case, that we

 9     needed to go back to the original.  So I can't remember at this point

10     what arrangements we came to at that time.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.  Then I with --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where's the original?  Why do we get the best

13     evidence rule?

14             MR. THOMAS:  Because it's scanned, Your Honour.  We have to use

15     e-court.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But looking on the -- looking on the scan here, do

17     you see any indication that there's a signature there?

18             MR. THOMAS:  Well, I see some markings.  I couldn't tell you,

19     Your Honour.  I wouldn't be prepared to say that that is not a --

20     signature.  Put it that way.  Obviously the translator has looked at it

21     and decided that there is a signature, but she wouldn't have or he

22     wouldn't have been acting off of a scanned copy, that would have been --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the same translator has written "signed" under

24     40, where you see nothing that that indicates.

25             MR. THOMAS:  True.  True.

Page 12379

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So how reliable can that person be?

 2             MR. THOMAS:  True.  Your Honours, for the purposes of this

 3     document, I'm prepared to accept that there isn't a signature in box

 4     number 36.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Now, I see a very black document on the

 6     screen.  Now, I'm not sure whether is this supposed to be the original of

 7     this thing?  Thank you.

 8             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.  You may proceed.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, that's fine.  If we could now have up on the

10     screen - excuse me - P582.

11        Q.   Directing your attention once again to the upper left-hand

12     corner, upper land corner of this document.  I note that there are some

13     entries.  I'd like to focus for the moment on box number 4, which is the

14     name and the address of the sender.  Is there any information contained

15     in that box as to the name or address of the sender?

16        A.   There's no information.

17        Q.   Looking down -- looking immediately above that in box number 8,

18     which is analysis, I see that on the right-hand side there is an entry

19     that says, I believe, "For type of change."  Is there any number there?

20     You see where I am?  That would be the right-hand box immediately above

21     box number 4.  There are two places.  One says "Account expenditures,"

22     and the other says "Type of change," in English.  Do you see those?

23        A.   There's nothing in the B/C/S version.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I note for purposes of the record with regard to

25     P582 that there is a number 575 inserted in "Type of change."  But before

Page 12380

 1     you -- if you'll just note that, Mr. Thomas, because there are I think

 2     some other issues with insertions in terms of this particular English

 3     document.

 4             If you go to the bottom of the document, please.

 5        Q.   Looking at the bottom of the document, is there any stamp on the

 6     bottom of this document?

 7        A.   I can't see one.

 8        Q.   And referring to the now upper right-hand corner of the document,

 9     in boxes number 16 and in box number 19 dealing respectively, box 16 with

10     a number and box 19 with a date, is there any information contained in

11     the B/C/S document in those two boxes?

12        A.   No.  No, there isn't.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would note for purposes of the record that with

14     regard to box number 16, there is an entry of "21/7-2-93," and in box

15     number 19 there is the insertion of a date of "24.11.1993."

16             MR. THOMAS:  That's accepted, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:

19        Q.   With regard to -- with regard to the information which is

20     contained in box number 14, I believe that you have previously commented

21     with regard to this kind of information which is similar to that which

22     you commented on in People's 579 and 581, which is that there is neither

23     the name nor the address of a receiver but, rather, the insertion of a

24     decision.  Can you confirm that, please?

25        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

Page 12381

 1        Q.   And if we could go to the bottom of the document on the

 2     right-hand side.  With regard to boxes number 40, 41, and 42, do you see

 3     any information contained in those boxes?

 4        A.   No, I don't.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would note for the record with regard to P582,

 6     that the English copy indicates in box number 40 "Ordered by /signed/,"

 7     information that is not contained in the B/C/S version.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Accepted, Your Honours.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could now have 583.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that --

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, could you look at box number 4

13     and comment on it, Mr. Kodzopeljic.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I thought I had covered that --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers].

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I thought I had covered that

17     [Overlapping speakers]and I apologise.  So why don't we just make sure,

18     because if it's not -- if you're not mindful of it, then I may not have

19     covered it and I do apologise.

20        Q.   With regard to box number 4 that His Honour has mentioned, box

21     number 4 contains what information, if any?  Concerning the name and the

22     address of the sender.

23        A.   There's no information contained in my copy.

24        Q.   And with regard to a question that I asked you previously, what

25     difficulty, if any, would this cause you in terms of the planning that

Page 12382

 1     you had to go through for your responsibilities?

 2        A.   This means that it is unknown who it was -- or, rather, from

 3     which depot the material was sent and which quantities have been

 4     decreased if there was any dispatch carried out.  So without such

 5     information, I cannot make any plans.

 6        Q.   I thank you.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I note the time -- excuse me.  Thank you, and

 8     I believe His Honour has a question.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Just before we go on our way.  In -- in box

10     number 26, I see that in the B/C/S you see "I, I, I, I" four I's, and

11     instead in the English we see "IS."  I'm not quite sure whether there is

12     a difference between those two, and if so, what is it?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in my version I have

14     Roman numeral I, which indicates category I.  I don't know what the

15     English version says.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very well then.  Thank you so much.  Mr. Guy-Smith

17     has indicated that he notes the time.  We'll take a break and come back

18     at half past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12 .34 p.m.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

23        Q.   If I could turn your attention --

24             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Guy-Smith, would you allow me to ask a

25     question?

Page 12383

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would be happy to sit and listen for a moment.

 3             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you very much.

 4             Witness, today Judge Moloto asked you, and this is on page 9,

 5     lines 5 to 10, to clarify about your functions, and you said:

 6              "I play both roles, both functions.  When I spoke about the

 7     administration, I talk of my capacity as assistant minister of military

 8     economic activities and not of my capacity of the head of

 9     administration."

10             I just wanted to ask you to elaborate on these two roles, on

11     these two functions, what is to say the interrelations of these functions

12     during your experience.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from 1993 to 1999; the

14     2nd of April of that year I was the chief of the technical administration

15     of the logistics sector of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

16     In other words, the Chief of the General Staff was my second-ranking

17     superior.

18             As of the 2nd of April, 1990 [as interpreted], until the moment I

19     was pensioned off, I was the assistant federal minister for defence in

20     charge of military economic activities.  That institution was under the

21     authority of the Ministry of Defence, and the Ministry of Defence was

22     part of the government.

23             JUDGE DAVID:  [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Judge David, please.

25             JUDGE DAVID:  I would like also to find out what kind of

Page 12384

 1     connections, interrelations, these two functions had between the two, and

 2     especially if in the functions in the army you had any orientation,

 3     control, supervision on any one or some of them of these special-purpose

 4     military industry.  So my first question is to find out on your

 5     experience the interrelations between these two functions.  Were they

 6     concurrent in some issues?  Were they totally exclusive, one from each

 7     other?  And at any rate, what kind of supervision, control, orientation,

 8     direction you had in the army over the special-purpose industries.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, Your Honour, I understand your

10     question conceptually.  I'm just concerned about one thing, as I'm

11     looking at the record, and I don't know whether this affects your

12     question or not.  It says at line 12:  "As of the 2nd of April, 1990."

13     And I don't know whether that date is an accurate date or not considering

14     what the gentleman has said before, and since you're talking about

15     interrelationship between the two, I just want to make sure that we're

16     dealing with the proper date independent of the conceptual issue that --

17             JUDGE DAVID:  [Overlapping speakers].

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Independent of the conceptional issue that you're

19     raising, so I just want to make sure that we have the right dates here.

20             JUDGE DAVID:  Absolutely.  I think that starting at 1993, you

21     said that in this answer that -- let me go back to your answer.  You

22     said:

23             From 1993 to 1999, 2nd of April of that year, he was the chief of

24     the technical administration of the logistics sector of the General Staff

25     of the Army of Yugoslavia.  "In other words, the chief of the General

Page 12385

 1     Staff was my second-ranking superior.  As of the 2nd April 1990, until

 2     the moment I was pensioned off, I was the assistant federal minister for

 3     defence in charge of military economic activities.  That institution was

 4     under the authority of the minister of the Ministry of Defence and the

 5     Ministry of Defence was part of the government."

 6             I just want to in this period that you mention, if there were any

 7     concurrent functions from 1993 on that you elaborate, you know, on the

 8     issue.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understand your question entirely, and once

10     again I have no problems with it conceptually.  My concern is this:  Is

11     only the issue of the date, because I think that your question

12     conceptually includes a longer period of date for these two functions

13     than may well be the case, and I think the issue is whether or not the

14     year 1990, April 2nd, 1990, is accurate or not, and that's all I'm

15     referring to.  I'm not referring to the other aspects of your question

16     whatsoever.

17             JUDGE DAVID:  I have not put any kind of limit in time, but the

18     witness himself has answered specifically on dates.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's what my concern is, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE DAVID:  And so I just wanted the answer not from your

21     comments, but I just wanted to clarify by the witness himself.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Once again I have absolutely no difficulty

23     whatsoever with what you're seeking to understand.  My only concern is

24     with regard to the April 2nd 1990 date, whether that date is an accurate

25     date or not, and perhaps if that could be clarified for the moment,

Page 12386

 1     because I don't know if it was a translation issue or whether or not it

 2     is in fact the operative date or not, because my understanding might be

 3     somewhat and in some fashion slightly different, and I don't wish to

 4     suggest anything whatsoever.  I'm just trying to be clear with regard to

 5     that one aspect of the date.

 6             JUDGE DAVID:  Let's ask the witness about the dates.

 7             I would like very much you to, Witness, to clarify on the time,

 8     the dates, you know.  I ask you a question.  You answer that.  You could

 9     say it is the same answer, it's a different answer, I don't know, as

10     Judge Moloto always said.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- thank you very much.  I don't

12     know, Your Honour.  I may have misspoken.  The date is 2nd April 1999,

13     and if I mentioned the year 1990, it's my mistake.  I misspoke.  I

14     apologise.

15             JUDGE DAVID:  So, Witness, during the year 1993 and on, you had

16     no dual functions; is that correct?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

18             JUDGE DAVID:  Is that correct?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE DAVID:  And during the time that you had this function in

21     the army, could you precise exactly the dates in which you had that

22     function in the army?  Please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 1993 up to the 2nd of April,

24     1999.  I was the chief of the technical administration of the logistics

25     sector, and my second ranking in command was the Chief of the General

Page 12387

 1     Staff.

 2             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you very much.  The additional question:

 3     During that time, from 1993 up to the 2nd April 1999, had you, as part of

 4     your function, any direction, orientation, supervision, control,

 5     participation on the production of this special industries?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.  I did not have any

 7     authority over them.

 8             JUDGE DAVID:  So in the description of your functions, there were

 9     nothing that imply a supervision or any orientation as to the

10     special-purpose industries.  Thank you very much.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely nothing.  There was

12     nothing in my job description with regard to that.

13             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you very much, Witness.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you for that clarification, Judge David.  I

16     think it's quite helpful for the record.

17             If we could now turn to P583.  I see we've -- great, we've

18     switched sides.  Wonderful.

19        Q.   If we could take a look at the upper left-hand side of the

20     document in B/C/S.  There's a series of questions that I've asked you

21     before, and I'd like you to, if you could, confirm with regard to the

22     information that is contained in the first ten boxes there is no

23     information whatsoever except for information contained in box number 4,

24     which indicates that the name and the address of the sender is the --

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I seem to be having some difficulty with my

Page 12388

 1     screen.  It's flickering on and off.  It's on again.  It's staying on for

 2     the moment at least.

 3        Q.   With regard to box number 4, the indication is the sender is the

 4     General Staff of the VJ, and in box number 5, there's an indication of a

 5     loading station, and I have in my translation the word "Kremna."  Can you

 6     confirm that?

 7        A.   I can confirm what I can see here.  It says GS VJ.  It doesn't

 8     say General Staff but GS VJ.  And in this box I read "Remna," but I

 9     assume that the implication is Kremna.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And I thank you for the correction with regard to box

11     number 4.  With regard to that information, I take it that the same

12     problem that you have discussed with us before concerning previous

13     exhibits, P exhibits, remains, which is that the difficulty you would

14     have in terms of planning exists because you don't have any kind of

15     information concerning a logistics centre or depot from which the

16     material came.

17        A.   [No interpretation]

18        Q.   Going to the bottom of this particular document, on the left-hand

19     side, please.  Could you confirm for us that with regard to the

20     information -- with regard to any information in boxes 32, 37, 38, and

21     39, there is no information whatsoever, there are no signatures, and

22     there is no stamp.

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   And now if we could move to the right-hand side of the document.

25     I note that at the bottom of the document there is an indication of some

Page 12389

 1     signatures, as well as a stamp; correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Moving up from the bottom of the document to box number 14, box

 4     number 14 says what, sir?

 5        A.   The "Drina Corps Command."

 6        Q.   And you described to us what the difficulties are with regard to

 7     the Drina Corps Command being designated as a place for receipt in your

 8     previous testimony; correct?

 9        A.   Correct.  It's a command.  It's not a depot.  It's not a

10     Logistics Unit.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In that respect, what does the entry on box number

12     15 mean, if anything at all?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as I know,

14     that was their depot.  I'm not a hundred per cent sure, but I believe

15     that it was one of the depots of the Drina Corps Command.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:

18        Q.   And we do see in box number 19 a date, do we not?  On the upper

19     right-hand side of the document.

20        A.   Yes, indeed, yes.

21        Q.   Could you help us in terms of that.  What does that entry

22     signify?

23        A.   "25th November 1993."  That's the date when somebody received

24     this.  And I'm referring to the materiel.  However, that was not the

25     person in the depot but his superior.

Page 12390

 1        Q.   Very well.  If we could now take a look -- on the same document

 2     if we could scroll to the left so that we can focus on box number 24, a

 3     box that we've discussed previously.  And with regard to the information

 4     that's contained in box number 24, would you confirm that there is -- I

 5     know, as you've put it, nomenclature numbers?

 6        A.   I can confirm that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we please now have on the screen 584.

 9        Q.   Taking a look at P584, and I would like to do this, if I can,

10     rapidly, would you be able to confirm that your answers would be the same

11     with regard to People's 584 in all respects as your answers were to 583,

12     and by that I'm going to run through this very generally, the information

13     that's contained in the upper left-hand side; the information that's

14     contained with regard to absence of signatures and stamp on the lower

15     left-hand side; the information that's contained on the lower right-hand

16     side concerning names, signatures, and stamps; the information that's

17     contained in the upper right-hand side concerning dates and the

18     Drina Corps recipient, as well as the information that Judge Moloto asked

19     you with regard to 15, as well as the fact that there are no indications,

20     as you put it, of nomenclature in box number 24.

21        A.   Almost identical as the previous form.

22        Q.   I do note one distinction, and that's in box number 29.  And

23     looking at the original in box number 29, do you see any information

24     contained in that box?  That would be on the right-hand side of the

25     document.

Page 12391

 1        A.   There's nothing in box 29 in my copy.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would note for the record that with regard to

 3     P584, the following information is contained in the first entry, which

 4     concerns "82 mm round for M74 MB."  Going to the issue of box 29, it says

 5     "/? bullet/," information that is not contained in the original.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  That's accepted, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Something that you didn't talk about with respect

 8     to the previous exhibit:  If you're talking about the distinctions

 9     between the two, is that under box 25 in the previous exhibit there was

10     no unit of measure.  You can call it back and check if you want to.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe you, Your Honour.  No reason to.

12             If could I have a moment.

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could now have on the screen 5 -- I just

15     made a mistake here.  585.

16        Q.   Once again, I think that -- and I'd like to do this rapidly again

17     with regard to the information that is contained.  In the upper left-hand

18     corner there is no information but for "GS VJ."  In the lower left-hand

19     corner there are no signatures in boxes 32, 37, 38, 39, nor is there a

20     stamp.  Would you confirm that?

21        A.   I confirm.

22        Q.   With regard to the upper left-hand corner, I believe that the

23     same answer that you gave with regard to previous exhibits remains, which

24     is there's information contained in box 14 of "Drina Corps Command."  And

25     there's also information contained in box 15, as well as there being a

Page 12392

 1     date.  Do you confirm that?

 2        A.   I do.

 3        Q.   And with regard to the lower right-hand portion of the document,

 4     I believe that of there -- there is both a signature and a stamp in --

 5     with regard to boxes 40 and 41; correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   Looking at the information that's contained in box 24, once again

 8     we see no nomenclature, a matter that we've discussed previously.

 9        A.   I confirm.

10        Q.   And if you could take a look at box number 29 and tell me if you

11     see any information contained in that box.

12        A.   Nothing in my copy.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would note for the record that with regard to

14     P585, the following information is inserted in the English copy:

15     "/? bullet/."

16             MR. THOMAS:  Accepted, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could turn to 586.

19        Q.   Now, looking at this particular document, I'd like to start at

20     the very -- at the top of the document, left-hand side again, and first

21     of all I'd like to go to the portion of the document that deals with the

22     issue of date.  Do you see any information contained therein, and if you

23     do, can you tell us what that information is?  That would be box number

24     6.

25        A.   Something had been entered, and then it was stricken out.

Page 12393

 1        Q.   With regard to box number 11, the box that says "Place," do you

 2     have any information contained in that box in the B/C/S?

 3        A.   No, there's nothing.

 4        Q.   Okay.  I would note that with regard to box number 11 in the

 5     English version, there is a word inserted which is "Paracin,"

 6     P-a-r-a-c-i-n, which does not appear in the original document.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Also accepted, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:

10        Q.   And with regard to the sender, there is a name there, is there

11     not?

12        A.   All I have in my copy is "Kragujevac."

13        Q.   And what was Kragujevac?

14        A.   Kragujevac is a town.

15        Q.   Going down to the bottom of this particular document, left-hand

16     side, once again with regard to box 32, 37, 38, and 39, there is no

17     information contained in there, and there is no stamp; correct?

18        A.   Completely correct.

19        Q.   Looking at the --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, I may be slow on the uptake.  I

21     don't seem to see boxes from 37 on my English.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe it's on -- I think they've flipped it

23     over to the next page.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, next page.  Okay.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And my apologies to you.  I have it on the back.

Page 12394

 1     It's on the back of my -- I don't see any insertions here.  There you go,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could go back to the face page again, or

 5     the front side of it.

 6             Hold on.  Let's stop.  Stop.  Let's stop here since we're here

 7     rather than flipping back and forth.  Oh well, too late.  I was going to

 8     make life easier and just take care of one part of it.

 9        Q.   With regard to the upper right-hand side --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second, Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I only have the English version.  I would also

13     like to look at the B/C/S version, please, if it's possible.

14             Thank you so much.

15             You may proceed.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   With regard to the upper right hand of this document, looking at

18     the date, the date that's indicated in your version is "21/12/1993";

19     correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And for purposes of the record itself, because we're trying to

22     see the extent of the accuracy with regard to the English version, in box

23     number 19 the date is "24.12.1993."

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could move that over, scroll to the right

25     for the Court.  Thank you.

Page 12395

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, Mr. Guy-Smith, you said on the B/C/S you see

 2     the date of 21, December, 1993.  I don't see that date.  I see that is

 3     the date of 211.  I beg your pardon.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Oh, you're absolutely right.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers].

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You're absolutely right, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no, no, yes.  It's 21/12/1993.  It's

 8     21/12/1993.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'd say that'd be --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, it is --

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Depending on how one reads it, it would be --

12     yeah.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  21/12/1993.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard to the lower right-hand corner?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no.  You're still talking about that same box

16     in the English.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  With regard to the English, the date is

18     24/12/1993.  So this is just a matter of a discrepancy between the two.

19     This is not an issue of insertion of information that was not contained

20     in the original.  And I don't know whether or not Mr. Thomas wishes to

21     confirm or not confirm that.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, that's accepted, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:

25        Q.   With regard to the lower right hand portion of this document.  If

Page 12396

 1     we could scroll down, please.  And on the English version we'll have to

 2     flip over to the other side, to the second page.

 3             As we have done in the past, will you confirm that in the lower

 4     right-hand side there are both signatures above a stamp?

 5        A.   Yes, I confirm.

 6        Q.   And finally moving to the centre of the document, there in box

 7     number 24 is no indication, as you've put it, of any nomenclature;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could now go to P587.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you talk about boxes 37, 38, and 39?

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe that I did, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  If you did, that's fine.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:

15        Q.   Looking at this document and referring your attention or

16     directing your attention to the upper left-hand corner, would you confirm

17     that there's no information contained in number 4, the name and the

18     address of the sender?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Could you confirm that there's no information contained in box

21     number 6, the date box?

22        A.   There is no information.

23        Q.   And with regard to the middle of the document - I'm doing this

24     slightly differently this time - in this document there are, in fact,

25     nomenclature numbers, are there not?

Page 12397

 1        A.   Yes, there are.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How many digits?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I count 13, Your Honour.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a 13-digit number.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you make of that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that each accounting

 7     centre had their additional mark in order to identify in a more precise

 8     way what has been issued to them, but I'm not sure about that.  I'm

 9     talking about specific points of receipt.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:

11        Q.   And with regard to this specific document -- if you could scroll

12     down to the lower left-hand side.  This document has in boxes 37 and 38

13     names of individuals, does it not?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   There are no signatures on the lower left-hand side, are there?

16        A.   Yes.  I would agree that there are no signatures.  There is

17     something blurred on the left-hand side, but it doesn't look like a

18     signature.

19        Q.   Very well.  Nor is there a stamp.

20        A.   No stamp.

21        Q.   With regard to the upper right-hand side of the document, there

22     seems to be at the top of the document a stamp.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And there's some -- there are some words there on the top -- on

25     the right-hand side.  Could you tell us what that says?  "Sluzi Kao

Page 12398

 1     Roze."  I don't know if I've pronounced that properly, and I do apologise

 2     if I haven't.  What does that mean?

 3        A.   You have pronounced it excellently.  "It shall serve as a pink

 4     copy of MP-20."

 5        Q.   I see.  And the pink copy is something that we were having some

 6     conversations about yesterday.  Okay.

 7             I'd like to go to box number 14 where it says the name and

 8     address of "Receiver," and it has an indication of "30th Personnel

 9     Centre" in English.  I don't know if it says the same in B/C/S.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  In other words, to your knowledge is the 30th Personnel

12     Centre a logistics base or a depot?

13        A.   No, it isn't.

14        Q.   And I --

15        A.   Neither.

16        Q.   I'd like to take a moment here and take a look at box number 23.

17     There are some numbers which are stamped into that box which says

18     04457312.  Do you see those numbers there, there on the right-hand side?

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, Madam Usher, the right-hand side of

20     the same document.  It's in box number 23.  You need to scroll to the

21     right-hand side of -- yes, in B/C/S, please.  Thank you, yes.  Do you see

22     those numbers?  Where it says "Transport paid by:  04457312"?

23        A.   I can't see that, not in my copy.

24        Q.   Let's make sure we're looking -- let's say we're making -- we're

25     looking at the same document.  Under box 14, directly under box 14

Page 12399

 1     there's a -- yes.  Thank you so much.  If we could put a band around that

 2     and open that up a little bit for the gentleman.  Oh, it's my eyes that

 3     are going bad.  My apologies.  It's box 21.

 4             Do you -- well, there are two things then, because in the

 5     English -- well, we'll get to the English.  Do you see that number,

 6     "04457312" in box 21?

 7        A.   Let me just find box number 21, but I don't see anything written

 8     there.

 9        Q.   If you look directly under box 14, there's box 15.  Do you see

10     that?  On the right-hand side of the document?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Directly to the right of box 15 is box 21.  Do you see that?

13        A.   That's right.  Yes, I can see it.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   Yes.  "04457312."

16        Q.   Do you have any idea what that number is?

17        A.   I have no idea.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I note that we have been seeing similar numbers,

19     0446 or whatever, on the other documents, but only in the B/C/S and not

20     in the English.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  But if I might --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I didn't know whether it was an ERN number or

23     something like that.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do believe that for purposes of clarification,

25     the document that I'm looking at that I received from the Prosecution

Page 12400

 1     indicates that the ERN number of the document is 04457312.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I've been seeing these numbers as we have been

 3     going through, but only on the B/C/S version.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, this is the first time that I --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is there in English.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It's the first time that I've come across it in

 7     English.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you able to help, Mr. Thomas?

 9             MR. THOMAS:  I'm not, sir.  It would appear to be an ERN number,

10     but I will -- I'll confirm that.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I've been assuming them to be that all the

12     time because I've been seeing them.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You may well be right.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe only because you were silent on them, on the

15     previous ones.  I thought --

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  This is kind of -- looking at these documents is

17     something like a treasure chest.  Every time you look at it you find --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Something new.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- out something new.

20             If we could go down to the bottom on the right-hand side.

21        Q.   Now, with regard to -- with regard to the bottom right-hand side,

22     with regard to boxes 40, 41, and 42, there is no information contained in

23     those boxes, is there?

24        A.   That's right.  But there's no 43.  There's only 40, 41, and 42.

25        Q.   I would agree with that.  Now, I want to make sure that we're in

Page 12401

 1     fact looking -- looking at the same document, so, Mr. Registrar, or

 2     whoever is controlling this document at this point, could we scroll to

 3     the next page.  Thank you.

 4             And with regard to the next page I note that in the -- on the

 5     bottom of that page there is a stamp and some names.  Bottom left-hand

 6     side, excuse me.

 7        A.   I agree.

 8        Q.   And with regard to the top left-hand side of the page, I take it

 9     that your answer would be the same that your answer was with regard to

10     page -- the first page of the document that we've seen, they're the same

11     information -- the same information is contained.

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   And going to the -- let me ask you this first of all before I go

14     any further:  In terms of a delivery sheet where you have multiple

15     sheets, does each page need to have the same information contained on it,

16     or can you have a first page and then a bunch of information with regard

17     to the actual type of supply that's being considered, and at the very end

18     page you could have a stamp?  Would that be permissible?

19        A.   Each and every copy have to be identical in that sense.

20        Q.   Okay.  Looking at the -- at the bottom of this page of -- of P --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  586.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  587.  587.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is this 587 now?

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon.

Page 12402

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 2        Q.   Looking at the bottom of page 587, looking at the right --

 3     right-hand side of the page, going -- well, we're at the bottom so we'll

 4     stay at the bottom.  Is there any indication of either a signature or a

 5     stamp?  Which would indicate receipt.

 6        A.   No.  There's no signature.  There no stamp.

 7        Q.   Top of the page.  Is there any indication of a date?

 8        A.   No, there isn't.

 9        Q.   And this page, unlike the page that we saw previously with regard

10     to the box saying "Transport paid," does not have any entry in it.  That

11     is also absent of any information; correct?

12        A.   You're right.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Turning to the next page, then, if we could.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see this next page is page 1.  Is this now the

15     next exhibit?  This is 588 now?

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No.  This is still 587.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But it starts at the first page.  It's not a page

18     2 of what you've just turned over.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  What I'm looking at and

20     perhaps I'm off, but let me just double-check just quickly because here

21     there need be no confusion, so give me two seconds.

22                           [Defence counsel confer]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Even looking at the "Equipment supplied," it looks

24     like it's a different thing.  The previous one was pipes.  Here it's

25     suspension bar and bolt.

Page 12403

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You're absolutely correct in that regard.  If

 2     you're referring to the very top of the page where after the ERN number

 3     it says page 1 of 1 of the document that we've been looking at, which is

 4     P587, consists, as I understand it, both in the B/C/S and in the English

 5     of a series of pages, and that's a manner that has been put into the

 6     system, and there are one, two, three, four, five pages.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And each one of them is a sperate --

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- material list.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's correct, Your Honour.  That's why I

11     stopped for a moment to ask about each one as to whether or not you could

12     have something at the beginning and something at the end with some kind

13     of indication in between with regard to the continuity of the

14     information.

15        Q.   With regard to this page, I take it your answers would be the

16     same as they have been in terms of those that preceded?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just tighten -- tighten your question a little bit

18     up.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure, I'd be more than happy.

20        Q.   Looking at the upper left-hand side, there is no information with

21     regard to box number 4, the name and address of the sender.  There is no

22     date.  There is other information contained therein.

23             Looking at the -- we're on -- looking at the bottom of the page,

24     there is -- you're going to have to -- in the English I think you're

25     going to have to go to the next page.

Page 12404

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you go to the next page, so that we don't

 2     page over backwards and forwards, would you like to deal with those 32,

 3     33, 34?

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Surely.

 5        Q.   There's no -- there's no -- there's no information contained in

 6     32 or 33 on the left-hand side of the document, nor is there any

 7     information contained -- if we could scroll to the --

 8        A.   There's no information.

 9        Q.   If we could scroll to the right.  Perfect.  And now if we could

10     just go to the next page on the -- in the English, please.  I want to

11     just go to the very top of that page in English.

12             Now, with regard to the very bottom left-hand side of the page in

13     B/C/S, we need to scroll to the -- perfect.

14             There are names located -- and there is a stamp.  Right?

15        A.   Yes, there is.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, continuing with the information that is contained in

17     the document remaining in English on the same page, and we're going to

18     have to turn to a next page in the B/C/S.  And if we could scroll down in

19     the English, please.

20             Now, all of the information that's contained here has

21     nomenclature entries of 12 digits which are typewritten.  Is that -- is

22     that -- can you confirm that?

23        A.   Yes, I can.

24        Q.   If we were to take a look at the second entry, which is

25     translated as "Small axle" in English, it says "/handwritten/ 7," and I'm

Page 12405

 1     not questioning whether it's a 7 or 3 or whatever the number might be,

 2     but my question to you is do you know what that handwritten number

 3     signifies since we had previously been discussing the issue of 12 versus

 4     13 digits?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   With regard to the handwritten number after the nomenclature --

 7     the 12-digit nomenclature number that you've referred to before, can you

 8     tell us what the significance is of that handwritten if you know?

 9        A.   I said this morning that this is an additional number that is

10     irrelevant in the information system.

11        Q.   Okay.  And looking at this -- at this document in its -- in its

12     entirety, can you tell us where this handwritten information came from?

13     Do you have any idea who is the author of this information?

14        A.   No, I don't.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And I believe --

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sorry?  I was going to move to the next page, but

17     I think you may have a question.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I do.  Are you able to tell us the significance of

19     these marks in the handwritten column?  There are right ticks and then

20     there are crossed zeros.  Would you by any chance know the significance

21     of that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that this

23     was approved by an officer, and upon his approval this was sent to the

24     depot, and the head of depot then says -- he looks at the list and says

25     what he has, what he hasn't, and how many of those things that he has --

Page 12406

 1     he actually has.  So I'm almost sure that that's that.  That's taking

 2     stock of what's on stock and what's not.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you saying -- if I may zoom in to my question.

 4     Are you saying those marks indicate what he has in stock and what he

 5     doesn't have in stock?  What do the -- what do the right -- the tick

 6     mean, the right tick mean?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This means that, for example, under

 8     3, as you're looking from the top of the page, that he has one item or

 9     one piece, and that can be issued.  Further on, he has two pieces that

10     can be issued.  And then the next one, two pieces requested but they are

11     not in stock, therefore, cannot be issued.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the crossed zeros would mean not in stock.

13     Thank you so much.

14             Mr. Guy-Smith.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're correct.  You're right, yes.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could now go to P588.

17        Q.   Now, taking a look at this document and referring to box number

18     6, there's a date, is there not?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In box number 4, what do you have as the name and address of the

21     sender?

22        A.   "TRZ Kragujevac."

23        Q.   And what does TRZ stand for?

24        A.   Repair and Maintenance Depot.

25        Q.   Now, as I understand your testimony, this would be distinct from

Page 12407

 1     a document that we looked at previously in which there was just the word

 2     "Kragujevac" in terms of designating a town.

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes.  An entirely different meaning is that.

 4        Q.   And I want to make sure that we have a proper translation here.

 5     Once again, with regard to TRZ, what does that stand for?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He just told you.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, I know, but I'm getting a -- I'm getting a

 8     hit from somebody who is more learned than I am in the language.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that the English

10     translation is not good.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:

12        Q.   Okay.  And what would -- what is the proper translation?

13        A.   It's a general overhaul.  It's a repair depot or institute, if

14     you will.  It's not a maintenance.  Maintenance stands for maintenance

15     and not for repairs.

16        Q.   Now, do you draw a -- so we're clear because you've used two

17     words here.  You've used the word "depot," and you've used the word

18     "institute."  Do you draw a distinction between those two words?

19             So for purposes of this, would there be a difference between a

20     repair depot and a repair institute?  Since we're talking about a

21     translation issue here, I just want to make sure that we're all using the

22     same language.

23        A.   It's an institution.  It's like a factory that does general

24     repair of ammunition which was very typical of our military unlike any

25     other military forces.  And when the interpreter says "depot," it means

Page 12408

 1     somewhere where things were stored, and this was not a storage.  This was

 2     not a depot.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to look at the right-hand side of this

 4     document, if I could, please.  Focus your attention on number 14, and

 5     could you tell us what's indicated there.

 6        A.   What I have here is "30.KC."

 7        Q.   Do you know what that signifies?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.  The 30th Personnel Centre.

 9        Q.   And with regard to the nomenclature number in box number 24, do

10     we have one?

11        A.   There are just the first four digits.

12        Q.   Okay.  And with regard to the issue of the category and year of

13     production, are there any entries in box number 26 with regard to the

14     category and year of production?

15        A.   This does not exist in my copy.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would note for purposes of the record that with

17     regard to Plaintiff's P588, there is the insertion of the number "01" on

18     the English copy.

19             MR. THOMAS:  That's accepted, Your Honours.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:

21        Q.   Going to the bottom of the document, looking at the left-hand

22     side -- I guess we're going to have to go once again over to page 2 in

23     the English.

24             Okay.  With that having been done so the Chamber has the benefit

25     of taking a look at the English translation, looking at the document in

Page 12409

 1     B/C/S would you confirm that there is a stamp and a signature in boxes 37

 2     and 38?

 3        A.   There are two signatures and a stamp.

 4        Q.   And above that, in the body of the area where there is

 5     information concerning the nomenclature and type of supplies, there's

 6     also another stamp.  Do you see that stamp?  And there's a signature.

 7        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 8        Q.   As you're looking at that right now, can you tell us what the

 9     significance of that is?

10        A.    "Received 2.000 --" sorry, "268 boxes or crates," and a date,

11     18th of June, and I don't see the -- and I believe that there is also an

12     indication of the time when those were received, at 1700 hours.

13             If you want me to explain, the ammunition was packed in crates or

14     boxes, and for this type of ammunition those boxes contain up to twenty

15     hundred eight rounds, and I believe that the figure 268 refers to the

16     packaging of the ammunition.

17        Q.   Very good.  Thank you for that.  Could you look at box number 41

18     on the lower right-hand side, please.  Box number 41 is a box where the

19     manager is supposed to sign; is that correct?  The receiving manager.

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And what are the responsibilities of a receiving manager, if you

22     know?

23        A.   Is it a manager or a handler?  You said a manager, and I suppose

24     you meant handler or shop steward.  Which do you mean?

25        Q.   I meant whoever the person who is supposed to sign in box 41 is.

Page 12410

 1     I have it translated as "Manager."  Perhaps I'm using the wrong word.  So

 2     I'm just going to box -- all I'm doing is going to box number 41.  What

 3     are the responsibilities of the individual who should sign in box number

 4     41, if you can tell us?

 5        A.   That was a person, a man who is directly charged with the

 6     materiel specified in the documents that he had.  In other words, if

 7     there is a depot, nobody can enter that depot without his approval.  If

 8     he's absent, he takes the depot keys with him so that nobody can get in

 9     while he's absent.

10        Q.   Looking at box number 41 on this document, is there any entry in

11     that box?

12        A.   Not in here.  The only thing we can see is the title, "Handler."

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would note for the record that with regard to

14     Plaintiff's 588, in the English version of this exhibit there is inserted

15     the following:  "/?SGV/."

16             MR. THOMAS:  That's accepted, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I wish you all a good day.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you wish us a good day, could we go back to

20     the first page of this document in both languages.  Could you -- if it's

21     possible at all to enlarge a little bit the B/C/S, because I would like

22     Mr. Kodzopeljic to see something.  Can you go -- move to the left,

23     please.  No, to the left.  The opposite direction.  No, no, no.  To the

24     left.  And can you bring it back.  Still go up.  Right.  And go more to

25     the -- or you can't go any further.

Page 12411

 1             Mr. Kodzopeljic, on the top right-hand corner of the B/C/S there

 2     is a word that looks like "Obrasac" or "Obrazac" which doesn't appear on

 3     the English.  Are you able to tell us what that might mean.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yesterday we already

 5     discussed that.  The word stands for "Form," and what should follow is

 6     "MP-20."  It's one of the forms from that set of instructions about

 7     bookkeeping and accounting.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Forgive me for my forget fullness.  But just by

 9     way of a comment, you see that 03591158 next to that word which again

10     looks like an ERN number.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I thank you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are thanked most heartily by me.

15             We are supposed to stop now for the day.  We will have to come

16     back tomorrow again, sir, at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon this

17     time, so you can sleep a little longer in the morning.  Same courtroom.

18             Court adjourned to quarter past 2.00 tomorrow afternoon.  Court

19     adjourned.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day

22                           of July, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.