Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12412

 1                           Wednesday, 7 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.31 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

10     number IT-04-81-T, The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Could we have appearances for the day, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. THOMAS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

15     everyone in and around the courtroom.  Carmela Javier and Barney Thomas

16     for the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

18             And for the Defence.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, and to all.  Boris

20     Zorko, Chad Mair, Alex Fielding, and Gregor Guy-Smith appearing on behalf

21     of Mr. Perisic.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

23             Good afternoon, Mr. Kodzopeljic.  Good afternoon.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Just to remind you, Mr. Kodzopeljic, I

Page 12413

 1     know you know this already, but it is still our duty to remind you that

 2     you're still bound by the declaration that you made at the beginning of

 3     your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but

 4     the truth.

 5             Thank you so much.

 6             Mr. Guy-Smith.

 7                           WITNESS:  JUGOSLAV KODZOPELJIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Examination by Mr. Guy-Smith: [Continued]

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             If I can have but a moment.  We seem to be have a technical

12     problem still.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Take your time.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We still have a minor technical problem.  We're

15     going to try to work around it.  But in the event that we have to go to

16     the ELMO, we are not in a position to see both the transcript of the

17     proceedings as well as whatever exhibit is being shown to the witness.

18     And to the extent there are any issues, it can be addressed to me

19     specifically by Mr. Zorko as they relate to translations, that puts out

20     as somewhat of a disadvantage for the moment.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Join the club, Mr. Guy-Smith.  We also can't see

22     anything on our screens.

23             I'm being advised that we should use the other one that is the

24     one over which have you no control for LiveNote.  And then within five

25     minutes the other one will work.

Page 12414

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.

 2        Q.   I'd like to continue where we left off yesterday.  I -- I note

 3     that you have your binder in front of you, and I'd like you to take a

 4     look at the next document which is P589.

 5        A.   I can see it.

 6        Q.   I'm going suggest that we do, for the purposes of -- of the

 7     examination at this point, is I'm going to ask you a series about the

 8     document which you have in hard copy, and then we can either have it on

 9     the screen -- have the document on the screen as we normally would, but

10     then we would not have the benefit of the transcript, or we can just work

11     for a minute with the document.

12             You know what?  Let me make another suggestion.  Let me try to do

13     something somewhat different for the moment, because if it's going to be

14     five minutes, perhaps what I can do is jump into -- I can go to another

15     subject matter for a moment, and I come back to this subject and see if

16     we can do it that way.  That might be probably a more efficacious use of

17     our time.

18             Mr. Kodzopeljic, during the period of -- of our discussions over

19     the last couple of days we have, in large measure, been discussing the

20     issue of special-purpose industry, and we have touched upon your specific

21     duties in the technical administration.  What I'd like you to do, if you

22     could, is I'd like you to explain to us the technical institutes and how

23     the military technical institutes, and specifically the military

24     institutes with regard to repair, fit into your duties, if you could.

25        A.   I can only speak of the technical and maintenance institutes that

Page 12415

 1     were under me.  It was the institute in Kragujevac [Realtime transcript

 2     read in error "Kraljevic"] and Cacak.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And with regard to those institutes, what were --

 4     what was the institute in Cacak responsible for?

 5        A.   The institute in Cacak maintained non-combat [as interpreted]

 6     motor vehicles, tanks, APCs, infantry weapons, in the sense of general

 7     maintenance.  Next, they also maintained some engineering and electronic

 8     equipment, as well as internal combustion engines, and that was the bulk

 9     of their work.

10        Q.   And with regard to the institute in Kraljevic [sic].  Could

11     you -- could you describe for us what its -- it did?

12        A.   The technical and maintenance depot or institute in Kragujevac

13     [Realtime transcript read in error "Kraljevic"] was specific, because it

14     only maintained and worked on ammunitions.  As far as I can tell you,

15     based on the principles of economics, they worked on ammunitions of

16     the -- of the 20 millimetre calibre onwards or upwards.  It simply was

17     not cost effective to maintain any ammunitions below that range.

18             I can also tell you that they worked on other types of mines and

19     explosives, but for the most part, they worked with the ordnance that was

20     of 20 millimetre calibre and up.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just ask -- okay.  Just before I do that,

22     Mr. Thomas.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Sorry, Your Honours.  I think there's an error in

24     the transcript.  The institute that was referred to, at least what I

25     heard Mr. Kodzopeljic refer to, was Kragujevac, and it's been recorded as

Page 12416

 1     "Kraljevic," page 3, line 25, and page 4, line 7, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you please correct us, Mr. Kodzopeljic.  Which

 3     was the correct name?

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And line 9 as well.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the technical and

 7     maintenance institute in Kragujevac, and the one before that is in Cacak.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay just before the screen disappears --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The very line that is disappearing says:

11             "The institute in Cacak maintained non-combat motor vehicles,

12     tanks, APCs, infantry weapons."

13             What do you mean by that?  How can tanks and infantry weapons and

14     APCs be non-combat vehicles?  Unless you were misquoted, you were

15     misinterpreted, but that's what the thing says here and now it's

16     disappeared.  I can't refer you to it.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then it must have been

18     misinterpreted.  I said that the technical institute in Cacak maintained

19     those; whereas, the one in Kragujevac, maintained only on ammunitions.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think that the Judge's question is slightly

21     different than what you responded to, Mr. Kodzopeljic.

22             You mentioned two kinds ever vehicles and hopefully we will get

23     it back after the whole technical -- the whole LiveNote issue is taken

24     care of.  I don't want to take what he said out of context.

25             So apparently my experiment to get into an area where we were not

Page 12417

 1     dealing with exhibits was not successful.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry about that Mr. Guy-Smith.  Carry on.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 5        Q.   And let me see if -- if we can work with your -- with your last

 6     answer by memory.

 7             You indicated that in Kragujevac there were two kinds of vehicles

 8     that were being maintained, and could you tell us again what those two

 9     kinds were?

10        A.   There seems to be a misunderstanding.  The technical maintenance

11     institute in Kragujevac generally refitted ammunitions.

12        Q.   My apologies.  That one I made a terrible mistake and I do

13     apologise.  Cacak.

14        A.   Yes.  The technical maintenance institute in Cacak maintained

15     infantry weapons, armoured combat vehicles such as tanks, electronic

16     equipment, vehicles, and I said non-combat motor vehicles, under which

17     our -- the vehicles, the weight of which is .75 tons, 1, and 1 and a half

18     tons.  These are transport vehicles that are not fitted with weapons, and

19     we referred to them as non-combat motor vehicles.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the important thing is that combat vehicles

21     are also repaired there, APCs, and infantry weapons and --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, Mr.  President.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, you may proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.

25        Q.   Now, in the first institute that we discussed, Cacak, were

Page 12418

 1     vehicles built at that institute?

 2        A.   No.  They did not produce vehicles.

 3        Q.   Was their function limited to -- put it another way.

 4             What was their function limited to?  It wasn't production.  So

 5     what was done with these vehicles, be they combat or non-combat vehicles?

 6        A.   I'll try to be brief.

 7             When a piece of equipment, combat or non-combat or whatever they

 8     had within their overhaul programme, is assessed as no longer be

 9     sufficient -- being sufficiently reliable to be used, it is sent to the

10     technical and maintenance or overhaul institute in Cacak.  Let's say it's

11     a tank.  They -- they then take it apart, control each and every part in

12     terms of material, quality, and dimension, and then reassemble the tank.

13     Should a part be of such poor quality that it could no longer be used, it

14     is replaced by a new or repaired spare part.  After that, the tank is

15     tested and, if it passes the test, it is considered to be basically a new

16     tank.

17        Q.   And as a new -- as a new tank, once it -- it passes its test,

18     does that tank then re-enter into the materiel of the VJ?  Or is it used

19     for some other -- or can it be used for some other purpose, or both?

20        A.   No.  It cannot be used for any other purpose.  It remains a

21     military asset.

22        Q.   With regard to the institute at Kragujevac, what was that

23     institute responsible for?

24        A.   To repeat, that technical and overhaul institute was in charge of

25     refitting ammunitions.

Page 12419

 1        Q.   And could you describe which -- to us what you mean by "refitting

 2     ammunition"?

 3        A.   Yes, briefly.  The technical characteristics of different types

 4     of ammunition is monitored, those stored in warehouses and generally used

 5     across the army, and based on the results of such monitoring, such types

 6     of ammunition that are found unsatisfactory are being refitted.  Let's

 7     say it's a bullet.  It is transported to the institute, disassembled.

 8     Each part is controlled to see whether it meets the technical

 9     characteristic threshold.  It is cleaned.  We technically refer to it as

10     de-labouration.

11             Following the exercise, the bullet is reassembled, and those

12     parts that are found unfit are replaced, because they were not within the

13     permissible range.

14             After that, such a bullet is protected, packaged, and used as a

15     new bullet for the next 15 or 20 years, depending on the type, the type

16     of ammunitions.

17        Q.   You talked here about bullets and indicated that they get

18     packaged and used as new bullets for the next 15 or 20 years, depending

19     on the type, the type of ammunitions.

20             But with regard to mines, do mines have the same -- what I would

21     call, and I don't know if this is a proper military term, but do mines

22     have the same shelf-life that bullets have, or is their shelf-life

23     different?

24        A.   In essence, it's the same.  I can expand perhaps.

25             The basic components used to determine shelf-life is the

Page 12420

 1     gunpowder and explosive material.  We have a separate centre, an

 2     institution used to monitor the production of ammunitions.  When any type

 3     of ammunition is produced, parts of explosive material are exempt and

 4     deposited in such monitoring centres.  Each batch, each series is

 5     monitored for end date, and that is why I cannot tell you precisely what

 6     the shelf-life is for each and every type of ammunition.

 7        Q.   I have the distinct impression that you're starting to speed up

 8     in the delivery of your answers.  If you could slow down a bit, I think

 9     it would be helpful to all.  And I do apologise for interrupting you.

10        A.   I'll try.

11             The shelf-life, after a general refitting process, depends on the

12     shelf-life or degree of reliability and stability of such components

13     built in during that process.  In case of new ammunition, such materials

14     are also monitored for their shelf-life.

15        Q.   I'd like to double-check something.  On line 6, your answer reads

16     the shelf-life after a generally fitting process?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  General refitting process.

18        Q.   And when you use the term "refitting," do you use that term in

19     a -- in a fashion that synonymous with the term "repair."  Is that the

20     same term that you're using, they have the same meaning for you with

21     regard the type of activity that's occurring?

22        A.   No, that's not the same type of activity.  Repair is simply

23     removing a single malfunction or two or three of them in a vehicle, for

24     example.  However, general refitting or a overhaul includes activities

25     precisely prescribed by technological processes.  They encompass a larger

Page 12421

 1     scope or a type of work that needs to be included in that process.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you saying refitting means overhauling?  Did

 3     you hear my question?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That would be what we refer

 5     to as general overhaul.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  In cases of "vehicles," we

 7     believe the more appropriate term would be "overhaul."  In case of

 8     "ammunition," "refitting" seems to be the better term.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:

11        Q.   With that in mind, I'd like, if you could, to explain in a brief

12     manner the subject of reserves.  And if you could tell us whether or not

13     there's one system of reserves or multiple systems of reserves, to your

14     knowledge, within VJ were there at the time that you were engaged in your

15     work in the VJ.

16        A.   It's a very broad area pertaining to the army as a whole.

17     Globally speaking, reserves are categorised as wartime reserves and

18     peacetime reserves or stocks.  Wartime reserves are found at troop level,

19     army level, and at the level of the Supreme Command.  Peacetime stocks

20     are usually found at the level of the Supreme Command and, to a certain

21     extent, at the middle level.

22        Q.   Let's stop right there and discuss the issue of wartime reserves

23     which you have told us are found at -- from what I can tell, three

24     different areas.  And by that I mean, troop level, army level, and the

25     level of Supreme Commander.

Page 12422

 1             With regard to the troop level of reserves, wartime reserves that

 2     is, what are you referring to?

 3        A.   Anything used in a war needs to be stockpiled in case there is a

 4     war and resupplied in times of war.  Those are such reserves that a

 5     particular unit carries with it, enabling it to engage in combat

 6     activities according to a pre-planned or envisaged number of days of

 7     engagement.

 8        Q.   And with regard to the wartime reserves that existed at a troop

 9     level, can you tell us what happens when those reserves are exhausted, or

10     is that something that does happen?

11        A.   If I understand your question well, if a unit is implementing

12     certain tasks, be it in times of peace or war, it consumes.  It uses a

13     certain level of assets.  The resupply needs to come from a higher level

14     so as to enable the unit to continue pursuing those activities in

15     peacetime and in wartime for a certain number of days.

16        Q.   And with regard to the resupply or replenishment to the troop

17     level, where does that come from?

18        A.   Well, let me put it this way.  Every army has a hierarchical

19     system of provisions.  In other words there are several levels in

20     providing various materials.  For instance, if a unit expends a certain

21     amount of some materiel, that will be resupplied by its subordinate

22     [as interpreted] command and, for the most part, this is done from the

23     army stockpiles, army reserves.

24        Q.   On line 14, I'm looking at the answer, it says:

25             "If a unit expends a certain amount of some materiel, that will

Page 12423

 1     be resupplied by its subordinate command."

 2             And that's a bit confusing to me.  Would that be accurate, and

 3     I'm wondering if I have a translation --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  It should be

 5     "superior command."

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you so much.

 7        Q.   So for the troop, the next level up, would be what -- what would

 8     that be called?  Would that be the army?  Would it go directly from the

 9     troop to the army in terms of superior command?

10        A.   Well, that depends.  For instance, if we are a brigade its

11     superior command would be a corps.

12        Q.   And as we go up the chain, as it were, in terms of reserves, do

13     each one of these sections have their own reserves designated as

14     belonging -- or designating as being to their benefit?

15        A.   That's correct.  Each level of command has their own designated

16     amount of reserves.

17        Q.   Now with regard to the issue of the reserves of the Supreme

18     Command, are those reserves, the reserves of the Supreme Command,

19     reserves that are utilised in the pipeline of replenishment to the troops

20     in the -- in wartime?

21        A.   That's exactly what their purpose is.

22        Q.   And with regard to the wartime reserves of the Supreme Command,

23     are those wartime reserves held collectively with all the others; or is

24     there some way that the reserves are designated as belonging to, for

25     example, the Supreme Command, as opposed to any army, corps, or brigade?

Page 12424

 1        A.   Well, that would depend on the type of asset.  A large part of

 2     the wartime reserves of the army and the Supreme Command are stockpiled

 3     in the same depots.  But if you remember what we said about the material

 4     lists, they are completely separate.  So they are held in the same depots

 5     but for record purposes, they are separate.

 6        Q.   When you say they -- when you say that for record purposes they

 7     are separate, just so we have some understanding here, are the -- are

 8     they also physically kept separate from the other reserves?  And by this

 9     I mean, do you have, for example, a designation that says, reserves

10     Supreme Command; reserves 1st Army; reserves, corps; reserves, brigade.

11     So you have actually in the area they are separated physically or is it a

12     paper separation?

13        A.   Well, you see, our army was large and we had ammunition depots

14     with a large number of warehouses.  For instance, one depot sometimes had

15     30 -- up to 36 warehouses.  And those warehouses were specifically

16     designated and the handlers of those warehouses were different.  Some

17     handlers handled the army reserves whereas others handled the reserves of

18     the command -- the Supreme Command.  Because it didn't make financial

19     sense, it wasn't efficient to hold the same assets in several different

20     physical warehouses or areas because those facilities had to be protected

21     from blasts.  They had to be especially built.  The power supply had to

22     be in the so-called S-system, and there are many other specifications and

23     rules and requirements to stockpile those reserves in a Safe way.

24        Q.   You introduced here a concept which is a power supply that had to

25     be in the so-called S-system.  Could you describe for us, obviously in

Page 12425

 1     general terms, was the S-system is so that we understand the importance

 2     of it and why there had to be a power supply that had a particular kind

 3     of power or particular kind of electric -- electric format?

 4        A.   Well, I just mentioned the power supply but the stockpiling or

 5     keeping reserves of ammunition and, of course, that would be different

 6     for tanks and cannons which are also stored in warehouses.  But the

 7     regulations are very strict and very detailed.  So, for instance, you're

 8     not allowed to use a certain type of shoe that can cause a certain

 9     electric short circuit or -- and the electric power system, the S-system

10     is such that it makes it impossible for -- which makes it impossible for

11     a short circuit to occur anywhere within that system.  That would be

12     roughly speaking.

13        Q.   Okay.  That's understood.  With regard to the reserves that

14     existed in the system of those reserves for purposes of the designation

15     war reserves, have you covered the -- not the entirety in terms of every

16     detail, but have you -- you've covered the basic system as it relates to

17     war reserves.  Because if we -- I'm going move on to peacetime reserves

18     in a moment, but I want to make sure that we have fully ventilated this

19     particular area of reserves.

20        A.   Yes.  In brief, that is a very complex system, and very

21     responsible, in terms of security and its significance for the state.

22        Q.   Now with regard to the -- the issue of use and replenishment, I

23     take it that the -- at the end of every fiscal year, calendar year, or

24     planning year, when you were talking about planning the budget for the

25     next year, if it was the next -- for the next annual year or for the next

Page 12426

 1     five years, since you discussed both kinds of plans, the use of materiel

 2     and ultimately of the amount of materiel that was left was something of

 3     considerable importance to your planning?

 4        A.   Absolutely.  The quantities were very important.  I have to say

 5     that every tactical handler, if you recall when we discussed this, had to

 6     take care and be aware of the quantities of his reserves.  In other

 7     words, the technical service is not in charge of the quantities that will

 8     be stored, but, rather, the handler himself is responsible to plan the

 9     expenditure of those assets in the course of the dynamics of the work

10     that is done.

11        Q.   Now with regard to the issue of peacetime reserves, was the

12     system of peacetime reserves, storage and use, distinct from that of war

13     reserves?

14        A.   As for my service itself, the system was the same within our

15     service.  Ammunition of any type, whether it was wartime reserve or

16     peacetime reserve, for me, in terms of its safekeeping, it -- it was

17     absolutely identical.  The system was identical.

18        Q.   And I -- I want to go back here, because perhaps we have a

19     translation issue; perhaps not.

20             With regard to the -- the matter that you were discussing just a

21     moment ago, that being the importance of having accurate understanding of

22     this information for your planning, your answer states at line 23:

23             "In other words, the technical service is not in charge of

24     quantities that will be stored, but, rather, the handler himself is

25     responsible to plan the expenditure of those" quantities, as I'm assuming

Page 12427

 1     the word that's missing, "in the course of the dynamic of the work that

 2     is done."

 3             And my question to you is:  Is it the handler who is responsible

 4     plan the expenditure of those quantities?

 5        A.   No I did not say that it was a handler.  I -- rather, I said that

 6     this was determined by the level -- the tactical level.  In other words,

 7     those who are responsible to implement it at their -- at the tactical

 8     level.

 9             If you'd like me to explain it in more detail, I can do that.

10        Q.   Please do so, because I want to make sure that we know who is

11     responsible for the job that is being performed.

12        A.   Well, when we discussed the General Staff for instance in the

13     land army of the General Staff.  The land armies consisted of several

14     administrations:  The infantry administration, the armoured mechanised

15     administration, the artillery administration, engineering administration,

16     the chemical and biological weapons administration, and perhaps I didn't

17     number them all, but if now we look at one of these administration, for

18     instance the infantry administration, it is responsible, it is the

19     holder.  It is the subject and the planner and it will use all the

20     infantry ammunition and weapons and it will take care and be responsible

21     for replenishment of the reserves and their expenditures.

22             If we're talking about the armoured administration, that

23     administration would be responsible for handling and utilisation of the

24     armoured vehicles to take care of the replenishment of ammunition for the

25     armoured assets and the same is true for the engineering administration.

Page 12428

 1     Or me, for instance, I was in charge - in the logistics sector - I was in

 2     charge of electrical energy and the assets used therefore, and also for

 3     equipment, tools, workshops, and maintenance and repairs for all the

 4     assets that are used with an army unit.  I think this would be it in

 5     brief.

 6             In other words let me repeat.  These subjects were responsible

 7     for the quantities of reserves, their expenditures, their issuance and

 8     utilisation; whereas, the technical service was in charge of securing and

 9     stockpiling those and issuing them at the time when it is so required.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11        A.   Ordered by them.

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Once again just to double-check something here.

14        Q.   In your last answer you said at line 23, "whereas the technical

15     service was in charge of securing and stockpiling those and issuing them

16     at the time whens it is so required.

17             Is that technical service or is that technical something else?

18     Is the term "technical service" the appropriate term to be using right

19     there?

20        A.   Yes.  Generally speaking the technical service or, rather, the

21     units and institutions within the technical service.

22        Q.   Thank you, I'm --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You also said starting from line 19 on the other

24     screen:

25             "These subjects were responsible for the quantities of reserves,

Page 12429

 1     their expenditure, their issuance, and utilisation; whereas, the

 2     technical service ..."

 3             What do you call -- what was the official name of these subjects?

 4             Earlier you used the word "handler."  I don't know whether those

 5     are the handlers.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can only repeat one more

 7     time:  We're not talking here about handlers but, rather, about agents or

 8     subjects at the tactical level such as, for instance, the infantry

 9     administration.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but what do you mean by subject?  These are

11     people, I suppose, and what -- what -- is that the official name?  They

12     are called subjects?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The administration -- the infantry

14     administration, which, under the regulations, is responsible for that

15     specific area.  They are responsible for certain tasks, for instance.

16     Those would be the subjects.  We called them the tactical subjects or

17     agents.  Implementers.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  So some are tactical; others are technical.

19     Those who looked after stockpiling are called technical.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Support, technical support, yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:

23        Q.   And with regard to the issue of peacetime reserves, you indicated

24     that they were -- for your purposes, your work was essentially the same.

25     With regard to the issue of accounting and the need to have accurate

Page 12430

 1     records for purposes of planning, as regards a peacetime army, once

 2     again, would accurate records be of importance to you, in terms of being

 3     able to plan for the future, be it an annual or a five-year plan?

 4        A.   I believe I've said that a number of times.

 5             For a tactical level subject, or agent, it is very important to

 6     know exactly what quantities of assets there are in -- in the whole

 7     system of warehouses.

 8             Maybe you didn't hear me.  It is very important for every

 9     tactical level subject to know exactly how much of what there is

10     available.

11        Q.   Irrespective of whether or not we're dealing with the issue of

12     being a peacetime army, wartime army, or an army that's in flux, as a

13     bottom line, which you've said here, which is:

14             "It is very important for every tactical level subject to know

15     exactly how much of what there is available."

16        A.   Absolutely.  I can confirm what you've just said.

17        Q.   And in the absence of -- in the absence for your purposes -- for

18     your job of knowing what was available, what difficulties did it create

19     for you, if any?

20        A.   Well, for us, it was important in terms of providing technical

21     support, building and reconstructing warehouses, collecting certain types

22     of materials in order to be more efficient.  And I can tell you for

23     instance that each facility that had stockpiles of rifles or pistols or

24     similar weapons, they had to be especially fitted with special methods of

25     stockpiling them, in order to prevent possible burglaries.  For us, it

Page 12431

 1     was important to have this at our disposal, in the economic sense, the

 2     stockpiles that are available for the tactical level users, or subjects.

 3        Q.   And with regard to what you've just said, is that the -- is that

 4     the only importance that existed, or were there other reasons why it was

 5     important for you to know what was available?

 6        A.   Well, I can't -- nothing else really comes to mind as to what

 7     kind of other problems there might be.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Hopefully there were no other problems.

 9             I believe that the system is working again.  And if such be the

10     case, then I would like us to turn to P589.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine, except we have three minutes to

12     dispose of before we take a break.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Why don't we take a break now then.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You want to --

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I can try.  Let me try.

16        Q.   If you could turn to your binder to P589.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  589.

18        Q.   With regard to this particular document, I'd like you to take a

19     look at -- as we have done before, the upper left-hand corner.  I note

20     that in box number 4, there is the name and the address of a sender.

21             Do you see that?

22             I'm sorry, there is information contained in box number 4

23     concerning the name and address of a sender.

24             Do you see that?

25        A.   Yes, I see it.

Page 12432

 1        Q.   And what does it say?

 2        A.   It is TRZ, Kragujevac.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to now go to the right-hand side of the

 4     document, the upper right-hand side of the document.  I note that no

 5     information is contained in any of the boxes except for box number 14.

 6     Can you confirm that?

 7        A.   Yes, I can.

 8        Q.   With regard do box number 14, could you tell what it says, sir.

 9        A.   30th -- or 30.KC.

10        Q.   And do you know what that stands for?

11        A.   As far as I know, that stands for personnel centre.

12        Q.   And with regard to this issue which is an issue that we discussed

13     yesterday, is this an address where logistics could be sent, the 30th

14     Personnel Centre?

15        A.   I cannot confirm that.  I cannot say that with certainty.  But,

16     as far as I knew, the 30th KC, that administration was in Belgrade

17     down-town Belgrade.  So it didn't make sense, for instance, for someone

18     from Kragujevac to send ammunition to Belgrade.  I believe that this has

19     to do with something else.  There's something -- something else going on

20     here.

21        Q.   Very well.  And after the break, we'll pick up ...

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             We will take a break and come back at 4.00.

24             Court adjourned.

25                           --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

Page 12433

 1                           --- On resuming at 3.58 p.m.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 4        Q.   In your last answer before the break, you said:  "There's

 5     something else going on here."

 6             Do you recall making that statement, sir?

 7        A.   Yes, I said so.

 8        Q.   Could you tell us what you meant by that.

 9        A.   I see that it only says the 30th KC, and I can't say what could

10     be behind that.  I only know of the 30th Personnel Centre.

11        Q.   And just for a moment, with regard to the 30th Personnel Centre,

12     do you know whether or not the 30th Personnel Centre was a name or

13     designation for some specific institution other than that which is named

14     here?

15        A.   I don't have much knowledge about the 30th Personnel Centre.

16        Q.   Very well.

17             Continuing looking at the document, if we could, and directing

18     your attention to box 24, a box that we have discussed before.  Can you

19     confirm that there is no nomenclature of either 12 or 13 digits in that

20     box?

21        A.   Yes.  Only the first four digits are there.

22        Q.   And with regard to the --

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we can scroll down to the bottom of the

24     document, left-hand side.

25        Q.   Do you see that there's -- both signatures as well as a stamp in

Page 12434

 1     boxes 32, 37, and 38?

 2        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 3        Q.   And with regard to the right hand -- bottom portion of the

 4     document, sir.  If we could scroll to the right.

 5             With regard to the right hand portion of the document, would you

 6     agree that there is no signature in boxes 39 [sic], 40, 41?

 7        A.   Aren't you referring to boxes 40, 41, and 42?

 8        Q.   Yes, I am.  And if I misspoke, your correction is appreciated.

 9        A.   Yes.  Because that concerns receipt.  There is no signature

10     there.

11        Q.   And can you confirm there's no stamp?

12        A.   There is none.

13        Q.   Between 1993 and 1996, I wonder if you can help us with regard to

14     an issue concerning your knowledge of whether or not there was any war

15     profiteering that occurred concerning assets of the -- of your -- of the

16     depots that you were involved in?

17        A.   I cannot confirm that.

18        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the -- the general issue of -- of war

19     profiteering, was that a matter that was of concern to the technical

20     administration at any level?

21        A.   The technical administration did not deal with that.  However, we

22     were concerned, if such information reached us.

23        Q.   And do you recall any such information reaching you?

24        A.   No, I can't recall any.  It was a long time ago.  I presume I

25     would need to be more specific, but I cannot recall anything.

Page 12435

 1        Q.   Very well.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could see P592.

 3        Q.   Now for P592, directing your attention to the upper left-hand

 4     corner, would you confirm that in the -- those boxes that we have been

 5     having discussions about, the only information that's contained in the

 6     upper left-hand corner is the box at number 4, where it says VJ?

 7        A.   I confirm that.  And at the top of the page, it says "receipt."

 8        Q.   You say at the top of the page it says "receipt."  Are you

 9     referring to the -- to the -- the typed-in word which looks to me like

10     "P-r-i-j-e-m"?

11        A.   Yes, precisely.

12        Q.   That word means "receipt"?

13        A.   Yes, receipt.  It means it was received.

14        Q.   Very well.  Before we go any further, I would note for the record

15     that the translation is "delivery," not "receipt."  In the English

16     version.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  So this, unlike the matters that we referred to

18     before, which were not subject to translation errors but, rather,

19     insertions, into the document, this would seem to be a translation issue.

20             I'm waiting for my -- my colleague to make a determination,

21     although he seems to be have having some further inquiry, so I will

22     continue on and we will get back to it today.

23             Now, if we could go to the --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I believe Mr. Thomas is standing up.

25             MR. THOMAS:  [Microphone not activated] Sorry, my mic is not

Page 12436

 1     working, Your Honours.

 2             Thank you.  The difficulty for me, Your Honours, is, obviously, I

 3     can't tell what the appropriate translation of the word is.  We just have

 4     to leave that for the moment.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very well.  That's all right.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 7             And if we could go to the lower left-hand side of the document,

 8     which will be on -- the next page in -- in English.

 9        Q.   Do you see any entries in -- in the left-hand side of the

10     document in boxes number 32, 37, 38, 39?

11        A.   I don't see anything.  I only note the stamp over box 39.

12        Q.   Could you tell us looking at that stamp where's that stamp from,

13     if you can tell?  Where does it signify it's from would be a better way

14     of putting it.

15        A.   The stamp reads:  Military Post 7111, Han Pijesak.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to remind us, in which former republic of the

17     SFRY is Han Pijesak?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Now, with regard to the upper right-hand side of

21     the document, can we take a look at that, please.

22        Q.   And focussing your attention on box number 14, could you tell us

23     what it says?

24        A.   It says:  "Drina Corps Command."

25        Q.   And with regard to the informations contained in box 24, there

Page 12437

 1     are a number of different entries.  Can you confirm for us that there is

 2     no nomenclature of either a 12- or 13-digit nature.

 3        A.   I can confirm that.

 4        Q.   And finally looking at the lower right-hand side of this

 5     particular document.  I note that there is in boxes number 40 and 41

 6     typewritten what seems to be signatures.  And that would be on the --

 7     there you go.  The second page of the English.

 8             Can you confirm that?

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10        Q.   Could you do us another kindness and remind us --

11        A.   It seems so to me, too.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, we didn't hear the interpreter.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  It seems so to me too.  The missing answer,

14     witness answer.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:

17        Q.   Could you do us the kindness of going back to the information

18     that's contained in box number 4 where it says "VJ" and tell us what, if

19     any, information that gives you with regard to the delivery of material?

20        A.   Well, this is the usual short form for Yugoslav Army, VJ.

21        Q.   Okay.  With regard to it designating the name and place of sender

22     for purposes of tracking where information came from, of what assistance

23     is this information to you?

24        A.   It's not of much help.

25        Q.   And why is that?

Page 12438

 1        A.   If this has to do with the Army of Yugoslavia, then you know very

 2     well what size of territory it encompassed.

 3        Q.   And when you say that, I -- I take it that you -- I do know that

 4     it was a large territory.  But can you be more specific in your comments

 5     as to why this is a difficulty, or why it is of little or no help?

 6        A.   Yes, now I understand the thrust of your question better.

 7             It means that if these quantities were, indeed, supplied, no

 8     identification can be made in terms of what tactical agent saw their

 9     tactical reserves reduced.  I cannot say whose reserves this came from.

10        Q.   If we could -- thank you.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we now see P595.

12        Q.   Referring your attention to the upper left-hand corner and

13     specifically referring your attention to box number 4, is the information

14     that's contained in box number 4 an address?

15        A.   It says NGS - VJ POV.BR,.85 - 89 of 22.09.95.

16        Q.   To your knowledge, is that an address?

17        A.   No.  The reference is to an order or a document, I suppose.

18        Q.   Now, that is the only part of the form that's filled out in the

19     upper left-hand corner, and by that I am referring to the boxes 1 through

20     10.

21             Can you confirm that?

22        A.   I can.

23        Q.   And I want to move in to the right-hand side of the document,

24     going to box 14.  In the previous exhibit that we saw, there was a stamp,

25     and I believe that you indicated that -- that the stamp contained the

Page 12439

 1     same information that's contained in -- in box 14, and by that I mean

 2     Military Post 7111, Han Pijesak?

 3        A.   It only says H. Pijesak, as opposed to the stamp.

 4        Q.   You are absolutely correct.  And with regard to this

 5     military post, do you know apart from this military post being in the

 6     former -- at one point in the former SFRY and in Bosnia-Herzegovina, do

 7     you know where this -- where this military post was physically?

 8        A.   No.  I don't have any idea.

 9        Q.   Do you know --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Mr. Guy-Smith, your question was -- in the

11     previous exhibit that we saw there was a stamp, and I believe that you

12     indicated that that stamp contained the name -- information that's

13     contained in box 14, and by that I mean military post.  I'm not quite

14     sure, are you suggesting that that stamp was in box 14 or are you

15     suggesting that what we saw on that stamp is the information that is now

16     in box 14?

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You -- you -- you have put it precisely with

18     regard to the second part.  And I wasn't trying to be confusing.  I was

19     talking about the information itself.  Not the stamp, but the information

20     itself that is contained on the stamp.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could direct our attention to box 24.

23        Q.   Once again, in terms of the issue surrounding nomenclature, would

24     you confirm that there is no nomenclature with regard to any of the six

25     types of supplies that are listed?

Page 12440

 1        A.   I confirm that.

 2        Q.   And if we could go down -- excuse me, if we could scroll -- thank

 3     you very much.

 4             Before we get to the bottom of the -- the form, after box number

 5     6, there's some writing.  Could you tell us what that says.  It's a

 6     handwritten -- it's handwriting without a number in front of it.  Can you

 7     tell us what that says?

 8        A.   In the box number 6?

 9        Q.   Directly below box number 6.  In terms -- after the -- where you

10     look at the type of supplies, there's six supplies listed.  You go to the

11     centre of the document.  You're --

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   There's something --

14        A.   I can see that.

15        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

16        A.   It says concluded with the ordinal number 6.

17        Q.   After that, do you see anything further in that particular area

18     of the document, the centre of the document.  Is there any other

19     handwritten information or -- or typewritten information?

20        A.   Not in my document.

21        Q.   Okay.  I would note for the record that in the English document

22     the following is inserted: "/illegible/ NGS-VJ/? Chief of General Staff,"

23     which is initial caps "- initial caps, Yugoslav Army /85-89, dated on

24     22.09.95."

25             This insertion is not contained on the original document, which

Page 12441

 1     has been introduced as plaintiff's 595.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  If I could just see the entire document in B/C/S,

 3     please, Your Honours.

 4             Thank you.  That's accepted.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Now we're going to the lower left hand section of

 7     the document.

 8        Q.   Do you confirm there's no data in any of the --

 9        A.   I can.

10        Q.   -- left hand section -- bottom left hand section of the document

11     which we have been discussing with, I believe all of the documents before

12     boxes 32, 37, 38, and 39.

13        A.   I can confirm that there's no information therein.

14        Q.   And with regard to the -- below the documents -- below those

15     boxes that we just referred, do you see any information whatsoever,

16     handwritten or typewritten.  Directly below those boxes, do you see

17     anything at all in the document that you're looking at?  Any handwriting

18     like a note or anything else?

19        A.   You mean below boxes 37, 38, and 39?

20        Q.   Yes, that's correct.

21        A.   On the copy before me, there is nothing.

22        Q.   And I would note for purposes of the record concerning the same

23     document, in the English version it says "VSB," that's all in caps,

24     "/expansion unknown/," then a line or two is dropped and it says

25     "/handwritten:/Tomo Basevic."  Tomo is spelled T-o-m-o, and Basevic is

Page 12442

 1     spelled B-a-s-e-v-i-c.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber would note that in the B/C/S --

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I see that --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- there is an abbreviation "VSB."

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I just saw that abbreviation, Your Honour, and

 6     I -- therefore retract that particular remark, but with regard to the

 7     secondary remark concerning "/handwritten:/Tomo Basevic," I maintain the

 8     position that I previously took.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  In respect of that document, sir, I wish to sight

10     the original before I take a position.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.

12        Q.   And concerning the lower right-hand side of the document, can you

13     confirm there is no stamp?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  P596, please.

16        Q.   Now this document contains information contained in box 4;

17     correct?  On the upper left-hand side.

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   Now, going to the bottom of the document - left-hand side - which

20     would be on page 2 of the English, is there any information whatsoever in

21     any of those boxes on the lower left-hand side concerning who it was

22     approved by, from the sender's standpoint, who it was ordered by, from

23     the sender's standpoint, who the manager was, from the sender's

24     standpoint, or who it was entered by?

25        A.   There is no information here whatsoever.  But to avoid any

Page 12443

 1     confusion, the VSB acronym means the military printing office, Belgrade.

 2     That was the entity that produced this form.  This was not a handwritten

 3     note.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And if we could turn to the right-hand side of this

 5     document, I note there is a stamp and signatures.  Can you confirm that?

 6        A.   Yes, I can.

 7        Q.   Now, using, for a moment, P596, for purposes of some of the

 8     discussion we've had before, and specifically referring to the bottom

 9     left-hand portion of this document, wherein there is no data whatsoever,

10     could you tell us what, if any, problems or difficulties are created by

11     this absence of information with regard to relying upon the accuracy of a

12     delivery?

13        A.   Well, we talked about this yesterday, and we saw what the

14     regulations were concerning this.  In other words, without accurately

15     entered information in the forms by the provider and without information

16     confirming receipt, I cannot really take this to be accurate.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we now please see P597.

19        Q.   Now, I think we have before us a different kind of document,

20     refreshingly.  And I'd like you to take a look at the document and see

21     whether you can be of any assistance and comment on what kind of a

22     document is this?

23        A.   In the left-hand corner, information is missing about the sender.

24     If I may put it that way.  It says SOUR and then below that, RO, and then

25     it says KR, in parentheses, and then it says telegram and telex.  As far

Page 12444

 1     as can I see the number is 10 through 21.

 2             So a portion of the text is missing.  Now, this is a form --

 3        Q.   Let me stop you there for the moment.

 4             Do you know what SOUR stands for?

 5        A.   That is an acronym for complex organisation of associated labour,

 6     because, at the time, that is what -- how business was done in our parts.

 7        Q.   And when you say "at that time that is how business was done in

 8     our parts," is the -- and I'll use the acronym here, was the SOUR a state

 9     company, a private company?  Could you be of some assistance to us with

10     regard to that?

11        A.   Yes.  The SOURs and OURs were state-owned companies, or, rather,

12     socially owned companies.

13        Q.   And when you say that they were socially owned companies just --

14     for purposes of clarity, were these socially owned companies both under

15     the SFRY and under FRY so that after the breakup of the former Yugoslavia

16     in and FRY there still existed socially owned companies?

17        A.   During the SFRY they did exist; whereas, in FRY the process of

18     privatisation began, or, rather, the transfer of property and capital was

19     done in a different manner.  So that, at first, and I'm not sure whether

20     even to this day some of these remnants still live on, because this is a

21     process, an ongoing process, and privatisation is under way in our parts.

22     How far it has gone, I don't know, because I haven't really been privy to

23     that.

24        Q.   And when you say it was a socially owned company, who was it

25     owned by?

Page 12445

 1        A.   Well, now you're asking me about things that I'm not really an

 2     expert for.  But I can say this.  There used to exist state capital and

 3     social capital in our country and that is how the companies were also

 4     established and -- but I can't really tell you anything more about that.

 5        Q.   And with regard to this SOUR was this a company that was under

 6     the authority of the army?

 7        A.   It was not within the army, but it was a state-owned company.

 8        Q.   With regard to the information that is contained in this

 9     document, looking at this information, can you tell us under the name of

10     the item number 1, what is the item?

11        A.   If I understand this correctly, under number 2, it says 82

12     millimetre shell M86.

13        Q.   What's that?

14        A.   And I don't know, below that there is something reading 9301-1.

15        Q.   And in the box above that, number 1, what is -- what is inserted

16     into that box?

17        A.   I think it says there "incendiary shell, 120 millimetre."

18        Q.   Now going to the right of -- of the number 1 where you think it

19     says incendiary shell, 120 millimetre, there's a place that indicates how

20     many were ordered and how many were issued.

21             Can you confirm that that's what it says on the document?

22        A.   Well, here, under -- in the box entitled "Quantity," there are

23     two sub-boxes.  One of them reads "ord," "ord." I assume that that is the

24     short form for "ordered."  And then it says in the next box, "issued."

25        Q.   I see the numbers are the same.  So -- and I don't know if you

Page 12446

 1     can confirm this or not.  I assume that what this means is that 20

 2     incendiary grenades of the size 120 millimetres were ordered and the same

 3     was issued?

 4        A.   Well, I assume the same thing.

 5        Q.   Okay.  With regard to -- with regard to the second box, which is

 6     referring to 82-millimetre grenades, M-86s, 100 were ordered and a

 7     hundred were issued.

 8        A.   Yes, precisely.  And we see a letter K before that, and I assume

 9     that stands for "pieces."  So 100 were ordered and 100 were issued.

10        Q.   Now, with regard to the discussion that we were having the

11     other -- we were having the other day, in terms of heavy weaponry, what

12     is the significance, if any, of 120 millimetres?

13        A.   That is a shell that is used for mortars which has a

14     120-millimetre diameter or phi.

15        Q.   And for the purposes of dealing with the issue of whether such a

16     shell is a light weapon, a medium weapon, or a heavy weapon, are you in a

17     position to give us any assistance in that regard as to whether or not a

18     120-millimetre shell could be designated in any of those three respects?

19        A.   I believe that I said yesterday or the day before yesterday that

20     under the Vienna Agreement, when the weapons for our army were supposed

21     to be reduced, it was considered that all the weapons that were 76

22     millimetre in calibre were offensive weapons, but depending on the type

23     of weapons, this would not -- could not be considered heavy weapons,

24     because these weapons were part of infantry units.  And I assume, as a

25     technical person, that these weapons could not be considered to be of a

Page 12447

 1     heavy calibres because their range was not very large -- very long.

 2     That's as far as I know.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kodzopeljic, so that we can release you early

 4     for you to go home, can I request that you try to keep your answers as

 5     short as possible.  When the question says "was this a light, medium, or

 6     heavy calibre weapon," just say light weapon or just say heavy, whichever

 7     the answer is.  That will help us to move a little faster.

 8             Thank you so much.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:

10        Q.   Once again, turning your attention to this document, do you see

11     anywhere in the document the designation "to the purchaser."  Are those

12     words contained on the document?

13        A.   As far as I can see, no.

14        Q.   Okay.  Once again, for purposes of record, they are contained in

15     the English version directly under --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note they are contained in the

17     B/C/S version as well.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Ah-hah.  Okay.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  In the box right of the title, dispatch note

20     number 115.  It says Kupcu, K-u-p-c-u, and then there is handwritten 93.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

22        Q.   I'd like you to take a look at the very bottom of the document

23     and there's a stamp there.  Do you know who that stamp belonged to or

24     what -- what that stamp signifies?  And by "belong to," who is the

25     company or the military unit or -- I think we've seen, for example,

Page 12448

 1     military units.  Is that a military unit stamp?

 2        A.   No, it isn't.

 3        Q.   What kind of a stamp is it?

 4        A.   This is a stamp, a company stamp, the Krusik Corporation, from

 5     Valjevo.

 6        Q.   So with the information -- with the information that is supplied

 7     in the document to the purchaser, can you tell us, looking at this

 8     document, who the purchaser is?

 9        A.   I assumed that it is the Drina Corps.

10        Q.   I see.  And --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's the basis of that assumption?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it says:  Dispatched to

13     company.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where does it say that, dispatched to the company.

15     Oh, okay.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's below that, where it says in bold

17     [Overlapping speakers] ...

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  under 115.  It says

20     dispatched to the company [Overlapping speakers] --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- Vlasenica.

23        Q.   And, finally, with regard to this document, do you see a date on

24     this document?

25        A.   I do.

Page 12449

 1        Q.   And what date is that?

 2        A.   November 4, 1993.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could see plaintiff's 598.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 7        Q.   The last dispatch note number we looked at in people's 597 was

 8     dispatch number 115.  Could you tell us what the dispatch note number is

 9     on this document?

10        A.   175.

11        Q.   Could you give us the date of this document, please.

12        A.   I'm not sure whether it's the 20th or 28th of December, and I

13     assume 1993.  1993.

14        Q.   And when you say you assume 1993, do you see those numbers on

15     this document a 9 and a 3.

16        A.   The 3 is legible but the 9, not really.

17        Q.   Okay.  The last document that we looked at, P597, was dispatched

18     to the company Drina Corps Vlasenica.  Could you tell us, according to

19     this document, who were the items dispatched to with regard to dispatch

20     note number 175?

21        A.   Do you mean what is -- what it says there?

22        Q.   That's correct.

23        A.   Under number 1, incendiary shell, 120 -- I apologise.

24        Q.   All I'm asking is who was it dispatched to.  It says, similar to

25     the last document there's a notation of who this material is dispatched

Page 12450

 1     to.  It says:  Dispatched to the company.  And who is the company that

 2     this is dispatched to?

 3        A.   Military Post 7111, Vlasenica.

 4        Q.   And if you look at the -- at the bottom, is it -- is this, once

 5     again, the Krusik stamp?

 6        A.   Well, yes, you can see it at the bottom.

 7        Q.   I'm hoping can you help us here.  Looking at these last two

 8     documents, considering the information that's contained in them with

 9     regard to the -- with -- a dispatch note number indicating to the

10     purchaser and that the parties involved being the Drina Corps in the

11     first document that we saw, 597, and VP Military Post 711, Vlasenica, in

12     the second document.  Could you tell us whether or not this involves the

13     sale of these items, that these items were being sold that were being

14     delivered?

15        A.   Well, here it says that it has only been delivered.

16        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the information considering it says to the

17     purchasers.  Is that of any help to us in that regard or not, or would

18     you need further information to make that determination?

19             JUDGE DAVID:  I have a question for the witness.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, following this there should

23     be an invoice sent to the company.

24             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Witness, this corporation the manufacturer,

25     Krusik, Valjevo, was under the supervision or the control of the VJ

Page 12451

 1     according to your knowledge?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was not.  It was not.

 3             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you for that clarification, Judge.

 6        Q.   You indicated that there should be an invoice sent to the

 7     company.  In the absence of the invoice, all you can tell us with regard

 8     to this document is that it is a -- it indicates that it was sent.  I

 9     want to use your words directly.

10             Yeah, there should be an invoice sent to the company.  Thank you.

11        A.   Well, the invoice may have sent by mail.

12        Q.   It may have been, but since we don't have one before us, I'm not

13     asking you to speculate in that regard.

14        A.   Correct.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I figured out a way of speeding some of this up,

16     so if you give me just a moment, I'm going to get through a series of

17     these exhibits.

18        Q.   Are you familiar with a company or institution called Pretis?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Where was Pretis located?

21        A.   In the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22        Q.   And to your knowledge, in 1993 was Pretis under the control of

23     the Bosnia-Herzegovina government, the Republika Srpska government, or

24     some other government?

25        A.   As far as I can remember, it was under the control of the

Page 12452

 1     government of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   Now, what was the function of Pretis?

 3        A.   Well, I cannot really answer that with certainty, but some

 4     weapons systems, for sure.

 5        Q.   And when you say "some weapons systems for sure," were those

 6     weapons systems that were being produced?  Were those weapons systems

 7     that were being repaired?  Were those weapons systems that were being

 8     maintained?  Any of those; all of those; none of those.

 9        A.   They actually manufactured weapons systems.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:

12        Q.   When -- when -- I just want to make sure that I'm understanding

13     what you're saying with regard to the translations.

14             Did you say weapons systems, did you say weaponry, or did you say

15     weapons with regard to what Pretis manufactured.

16        A.   No.  I said -- I said weapon assets.

17        Q.   Okay.  When you say "weapon assets," could you define for us what

18     you mean by weapon assets.

19        A.   For instance, a cannon.  That is a weapon asset.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now with regard to the size of Pretis, if you know, and by

21     that I mean physically, the size of the plant, can you tell us how big it

22     was?  If you know.

23        A.   I think it was a big plant.

24        Q.   Okay.  Do you by any chance -- once again if you know, if you

25     don't know, that's fine.  Do you by any chance have any idea as to what

Page 12453

 1     its production capacity was?

 2        A.   No, I don't know that.

 3        Q.   And when you say it was a big plant, can -- can you tell us once

 4     again if you know, from a standpoint of size, how many hectares or

 5     kilometres if it actually covered that kind of an area, it covered?  And

 6     I do believe that --

 7        A.   Oh, that, especially, I wouldn't know anything about.

 8        Q.   And just to remind the Chamber, I believe Pretis is one of the

 9     places that we had occasion to visit during our site visit.

10             I'd like to --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just wanted to say that if we are talking in

12     terms of area, then kilometre would be an inappropriate word to use.  It

13     would have to be square kilometres.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You're absolutely right.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... you said hectares.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I said hectares and I should have said square

17     kilometres.

18             Could we please have P978.

19        Q.   Looking at the upper left-hand corner.  We still don't have the

20     English up but that's where I will be focussing your attention.

21             Whose the document from?

22        A.   Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, logistics sector,

23     technical department.

24        Q.   What is the date?

25        A.   28 June 1990 -- and I can't see what year exactly.

Page 12454

 1        Q.   Going down after the section that discusses who this is to be

 2     delivered to and where it says "for," there's a paragraph that says:

 3             "Based on the order of the head of staff, hd Pretis, from Vogosca

 4     shall issue the following ammunition types and quantities for the needs

 5     of the Ilidza pbr."

 6             Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

 8        Q.   Thereafter, there are six entries concerning various types of

 9     weapons or material for weapons.

10        A.   This is ammunition.  Shells, rounds.

11        Q.   Thank you.  That's perfect.  That's fine.  No need to go further,

12     that's fine.

13             And with regard to the bottom, it says that:  "The approved

14     ammunition shall be collected by an Ilidza Brigade representative.  And

15     the commands of the Ilidza Brigade and Vogosca headquarters, Pretis shall

16     agree on the dynamics of delivery."

17             Could you comment on that what means as to who was delivering

18     what to who?

19        A.   The holding corporation, Pretis, delivered assets to the Drina

20     Brigade.  They delivered the assets specified.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we please have P1064 on the screen.

23             I'm sorry, I'm hearing a question.  I'm not sure.  I am.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you you're saying the holding company or

25     corporation Pretis delivered assets.  I thought this would be an order,

Page 12455

 1     not a delivery.

 2             "Based on the order of the head of staff, hd Pretis from Vogosca

 3     shall issue the following."  Is this something that is still to be

 4     issued?  It's not been delivered yet.  Whether it was delivered, there

 5     would have to be some other documentation following this one.  That's my

 6     understanding.

 7             Wouldn't you agree with that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are correct.  I may have been

 9     wrong about that.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Okay.  Thank you so much.  That's

11     all [Microphone not activated].

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Just following up on your question, Your Honour.

13        Q.   All said and done, this is a transaction that exists between the

14     VRS and Pretis.  Those are the parties to this transaction?

15        A.   Yes, precisely.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for asking that question.  When I

17     hesitated, that's the question I wanted to ask.  But can I follow up on

18     it.

19             Do you know what the command of Ilidza pbr Infantry Brigade is?

20             You don't know.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I don't know that.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do know who the commander of the SRK,

23     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then if you don't know the Sarajevo-Romanija

Page 12456

 1     Corps, I believe you wouldn't know the SRK, IKM-2, the Sarajevo-Romanija

 2     Corps forward command post?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know what "hd" stands for?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Holding.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  1064, please.

 8        Q.   If you could take a moment and take a look at this document.

 9     There are a number -- there are a number of pages in the document, so I'd

10     like you to take a look.  Go to your binder, please, 1064.  I think it

11     might be easier for you, because that way you can look at all of the

12     pages that are contained in this document.  There's seven total pages

13     in -- in hard copy in English.

14        A.   I found it.

15        Q.   If you could just -- if you could look at the document, just for

16     a moment.  Review the document.  Have you had a chance to review the

17     entire document?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   I'd like to turn to the second page of the document, if I could.

20     I believe that would be in -- in both English and in B/C/S.

21             Looking at the very top of the page, where it says in B/C/S

22     "ugovor."  Could you identify for us what kind of a document this is?

23        A.   It is a contract between two parties.

24        Q.   And could you look and tell us who the two parties are that this

25     is a contract between?

Page 12457

 1        A.   The Unis Pretis of Vogosca, and Krusik of Valjevo.

 2        Q.   And could you tell us what this subject matter is of the contract

 3     which is contained in Article 1?

 4        A.   Item 1, primer to gun cartridge, and 3, primary charge for a

 5     shell.

 6        Q.   Now, below that could you tell us what it says with regard to

 7     this contract and equipment that this contract concerns is.  There's a

 8     particular sentence right after the three items that you mentioned

 9     starting with "asortiman sredstava"?  I'm getting better, I think.

10        A.   In my document it says prices do not include packaging material

11     because the purchaser is under an obligation to have it returned, if

12     we're reading the same document.

13        Q.   Okay.  I'd like you to -- we are reading the same document, but

14     you've jumped ahead.  I'm still in Article number 1.  Right before we get

15     to Article number 2.  What does it say?

16        A.   Sorry, I found it now.

17             It says the contract can be amended by adding other types of

18     products, as needed by the purchasing party.

19        Q.   And who was the purchasing party?

20        A.   HK Krusik -- sorry.  The purchasing party was Unis Pretis of

21     Vogosca.

22        Q.   And who was the selling party?

23        A.   The selling party was HK Krusik of Valjevo.

24        Q.   I'd now like to go to Article 3.  And in Article 3 -- which I

25     think will be on the next page in English.

Page 12458

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I think you are going to have to just scroll

 2     down a bit in the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   In the B/C/S, the very last sentence on the page, could you tell

 4     us what the value of the contract between the buyer, Pretis, and the

 5     seller, Krusik, contemplated?

 6        A.   1.277.920 dinars.

 7        Q.   Well, could you go to the next page in B/C/S.

 8             And with regard to -- with regard to that, can you tell us what

 9     the --

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You have to scroll up to the top of the page.

11     And you're going to have to scroll down in the English; I'm terribly

12     sorry.

13        Q.   Could you tell us what obligation the buyer had to the seller

14     with regards to payment?

15        A.   The buyer undertakes to pay, within a period of eight days from

16     the date of the signing of the contract, an advance of 383.376 dinars,

17     which amounts to 30 per cent of the total value of the contract, on the

18     basis of an issued pro forma invoice to Giro account number

19     43900-601-7-2255 SDK, Valjevo.

20        Q.   And if we could now go to Article number 9 which will be --

21     perfect.  That's going on to be page, I believe it's going to be on page

22     6 of the English.

23             With regard to Article number 9 in terms of what occurs if there

24     is a dispute, looking at the second paragraph, what do the contracting

25     parties here contemplate with regard to the jurisdiction that will

Page 12459

 1     resolve any disputes that exists between them?

 2        A.   The competent court would be the district commercial court in

 3     Valjevo.

 4        Q.   And with regard to that -- that competent court, what do the

 5     contracting parties agree to with regard to whatever decision is reached

 6     in the event there is a dispute?

 7        A.   Whose decision is final and enforceable for both contracting

 8     parties.

 9        Q.   And looking at the very bottom of the document do you -- do you

10     see a stamp and a signature on this document?

11        A.   I can see it.  I see the stamps of both buyer and seller.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I note the time.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             Can we leave this on the screen, because I'll have one or two

16     questions.

17             We'll take the break and come back at a quarter to 6.00.

18             Court adjourned.

19                           --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, I believe that we left off with you

23     indicating that you wanted the document left up on the screen because you

24     had a couple of questions.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  It may just be one.

Page 12460

 1             Okay.  Let me ask that question, and then I'll come back to what

 2     I wanted to say.

 3             Just for the record, are you able to read for us the stamps and

 4     names of the people at the bottom of that contract?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm receiving French, I'm sorry.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry about that.

 7             Shall I --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My apologies.

10             Are you able to read for us the stamps and the names of the

11     peoples who have signed the document at the bottom of the document?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The right-hand side of the document

13     where it says buyer, it says "Unis Pretis, Vogosca."  And on the stamp, I

14     can read "Pretis, Vogosca, Unis, Pretis," and I can't make out the rest.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much [Microphone not activated].

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The left-hand side stamp, or,

17     actually, what I can read is as follows:  "Seller, HK Krusik, DD," which

18     means shareholding, "Valjevo."  On the stamp I see that it says, "Krusik

19     Holding Corporation."

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             Mr. Guy-Smith.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, Your Honour, just before I start we

23     seem to still be having technical problems.  At this point Mr. Zorko, who

24     also is our Case Manager, is not able to get on to any of the electric or

25     electronic systems that we have, be they an S-system or any other kind of

Page 12461

 1     system.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  While he is trying that, can I say what I

 3     want to say, which we can deal with without any electronics.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I also -- sure, I had a second matter that I

 5     wanted to speak to briefly, but so be it.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you need electronics to do what you want to

 7     say?

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say it then.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, during the last break I took a look at what

11     I had left to do.  I also appreciate the amount of time we estimated for

12     this witness, and I'm aware of the fact that I have exceeded that time,

13     but I think that we'll be okay in terms of the overall amount of time

14     that we have, and I have truncated my examination even more so so that I

15     believe there will be but a few questions more of this witness.  And then

16     I will have concluded so that -- to the extent we made an estimate that

17     was lesser than we thought, such things do occur in the fullness of a

18     trial, but I think that with regard to ultimately amount of time that

19     we'll be using we will be okay.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now when you say "but a few questions," how much

21     longer do you think you're going to be?  Because that's the point I

22     wanted to raise with you anyway.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.  I think I will be no more than another 20

24     minutes, if that.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead then [Microphone not activated].

Page 12462

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm going to try to do this in the absence of

 2     Mr. Zorko's assistance.  Hopefully it will work.

 3             If we could have up on the screen plaintiff's 1262.  There we go.

 4        Q.   Could you briefly take a look at this document and tell us, if

 5     you know, what kind of a document it is.

 6        A.   It is an order by the commander of Military Post 2082, Belgrade.

 7        Q.   With regard to the issue that we have been discussing for these

 8     past days, armed with this order and nothing more, and by that I mean any

 9     of the material lists that we have been discussing, are you able to tell

10     us whether or not this order was enacted or not; whether or not the

11     materials contained in the order were delivered or left any depot or

12     institution or not; whether they were received or not?

13        A.   I can't say that this materiel was actually dispatched or sent.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said also that this is an order.  Is this an

16     order?  Or is this a request based on an order?  And I called it a

17     request because it says:  Please issue from the below-stated VPs.  But

18     based on an order number so-and-so, of so-and-so.  The request is based

19     on an order.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  In my version, it says:  Issue

21     for the needs of the General Staff.  It's in the imperative.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:

24        Q.   And briefly, looking at the kinds of materiel to be issued, under

25     number 3, it has a number of rounds for 7.62-millimetre Browning.  And is

Page 12463

 1     that number in terms of -- in terms of a military distribution is that a

 2     large number, a small number?  It says 1.5 million pieces.  Is that a

 3     normal distribution amount?

 4        A.   In my book, this is a large quantity.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Are you armed with any information as to --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 8        Q.   With regard to the issue of refitting of ammunition, what period

 9     of time it would take to refit one and a half million rounds of

10     ammunition?

11        A.   I think I said already that the 7.62-millimetre calibre

12     ammunition is not something that can be refitted.  Hence, I can't say

13     what the time amount would be.

14        Q.   Okay.  With regard to refitting ammunition, could you tell us

15     with regard to -- in a generic sense the refitting of ammunition how long

16     it would take to refit 1.5 million rounds of ammunition?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Objection, Your Honours.  But if could I just have a

19     moment to read the transcript.

20             The witness has already answered that it can't be refitted,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He says 7.62-millimetre calibres cannot be

23     refitted.  The next question is with regards to refitting ammunition,

24     could you tell us with regard to or in a generic sense.

25             You stand by your objection?

Page 12464

 1             MR. THOMAS:  I change my objection to one of relevance,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.

 5        Q.   With regard to 20-millimetre rounds, is that a round that can be

 6     refitted?

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are asked to repeat the answer,

10     Mr. Kodzopeljic.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Such rounds go through the process

12     of general overhaul.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:

14        Q.   And could you tell us approximately how long it would take to

15     refit 20.000 rounds?

16        A.   I can't say.  It's done in batches and per work posts or places.

17     The whole assembly line is 150 to 200 metres long.  There are points and

18     cubicles equipped in such a way so as to avoid any possibility of an

19     explosion, hence, I truly can't say.

20        Q.   And, finally, with regard to the issue of -- of ammunition, could

21     you tell us, if you know, what period of time it would take for the

22     special-purpose industry factories that you are familiar with to produce

23     1.5 million rounds of ammunition, such as a 7.62-millimetre Browning.

24        A.   The factory at Prvi Partizan produced 100 million rounds per

25     year.

Page 12465

 1        Q.   Okay.  I understood.  I think that we can do the math from that

 2     position.

 3             If we could -- if we could now have up on the screen 8 --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, are you able to help us

 5     determine by looking at this document to whom it was addressed?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is addressed to three

 7     military posts, Military Post 8800, Kragujevac; Military Post 5292,

 8     Novi Sad; and Military Post 5292, Bogutovacka Banja.  That's what's

 9     stated at the bottom.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Military Post 8080,

11     Kragujevac; Military Post 4100, Novi Sad; and Military Post 9008,

12     Belgrade.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Yes, Mr. --

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could if we could turn our attention to 65

16     ter 838D.

17        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to the second paragraph in this

18     document after you've had a chance to review the document.

19        A.   I've seen it.

20        Q.   Okay.  With regard to what is stated in the second paragraph of

21     this document, is the issue of where and how requests were sent something

22     that was a topic of the conversation that you were made aware of?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And with regard to what's said here:  "In future please send your

25     requests through the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska Army and the FRY

Page 12466

 1     Federal Ministry of Defence."

 2             Are you in a position to comment?  If you are, that's fine; if

 3     you're not, that's fine as well.  Are you in a position to comment as to

 4     why such an admonition would have been made to the Ministry of Interior

 5     of the Republika Srpska?

 6        A.   As far as I can recall, that -- that was what was ordered.  It

 7     was ordered for these things to be done in that manner.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I seek the admission of this document.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you standing up, Mr. Thomas, or are you just

11     stretching.

12             MR. THOMAS:  I'm thinking, Your Honour, but I don't object to the

13     admission of the document.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  The document is admitted into

15     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D392, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And, finally, if we could have 65 ter 647D pulled

19     up.

20        Q.   Now, could you tell us the date of this document, please.

21        A.   12 September 1990 -- I cannot make out the next digit.  Still the

22     same; I can't really make it out, although you have zoomed in on it.

23        Q.   Okay.  If you could go down to the second full paragraph where --

24     which starts off with some numbers.

25             Could you read those numbers for us and see if that gives you any

Page 12467

 1     assistance with regard to dates as they relate to this document.  They're

 2     the numbers 12.09.1993.  And then there's some Cyrillic writing and then

 3     it says 0E08,00?

 4        A.   Well, I can't find it in my version.

 5        Q.   Okay.  If you would go to your binder and go to the section which

 6     are Defence exhibits.  Past the green -- past the green separator.

 7     There's a green separator.  No, keep on going.  There's a green separator

 8     in your binder.  The other way.  Yes.  Keep on -- perfect.  Looking for

 9     the number 647.

10             Take a look at 647.  Yes.  And if you could --

11        A.   Yes, I found it.

12        Q.   Great.  And if you could do us the kindness in the hard copy of

13     looking at the first full paragraph after it says:

14             "Note:  From a meeting of the chief of the Yugoslav Army General

15     Staff with responsible chiefs of General Staff administration following

16     aggression by the Croatian army against the RSK/Republic of Serb

17     Krajina/."

18             The next paragraph.  Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Okay.  Do you see some numbers there?

21        A.   The 12th of September, 1993.

22        Q.   With regard to -- once again all I'm talking about is the date.

23     I hope that will be become of some assistance to you with regard to this

24     document.

25             There was a meeting and looking at the list of attendees at this

Page 12468

 1     meeting, if you would go down to the fourth name from the very bottom of

 2     all the attendees.  I'd ask if you take a look at that name and see if

 3     you recognise that name as being yours?

 4        A.   Yes, that's my name and last name.

 5        Q.   And with regard to what occurred at that meeting, if you take a

 6     look at the second full paragraph after the list of names, could you tell

 7     us what that says.

 8        A.    "After brief consultations with the people responsible for NVO,

 9     which means weapons and materiel in the infantry, mechanised units,

10     artillery, and other participants, he decided that requests by the

11     Main Staff of the RSK for NVO and medical supplies should be met or

12     approved only to the extent to which they do not deplete the current

13     reserves of the Army of Yugoslavia."

14        Q.   With regard to the last part of what you have told us:  Only to

15     the extent to which they do not deplete the current reserves of the Army

16     of Yugoslavia, could you tell us why that was of importance?

17        A.   The chief of the General Staff ordered that the needs of the

18     Yugoslav Army should be regulated in this manner.  So whatever does not

19     affect that -- is not detrimental to the combat readiness of the Yugoslav

20     Army.

21        Q.   And with regard to the issues --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I'm going to have to interrupt here

23     because it is related to this very point.

24             Now, the English translation of this document does not use the

25     word "deplete," and I do know that the interpretation said "deplete."  It

Page 12469

 1     says "endanger," and there is an substantive difference between the use

 2     of those two.  Deplete means then you're left with nothing.  Endanger

 3     means you are getting me to a stage where my combat readiness is now

 4     being threatened.

 5             So given those stages, you would stop supply earlier or sooner,

 6     if as soon as my supplies are endangered I would stop giving you a

 7     supply; but deplete means I'll give you everything that I have.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will only read the next

 9     paragraph in that order.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The interpreters do not

11     see the bottom of the English translation.

12             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters do not see the bottom of the

14     English translation.  Could we please lift it up.  Thank you so much.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  And could the witness please read a bit more

16     slowly, thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please don't bring it down again.  Now you're

18     bringing down the bottom part of the English page.

19             You may read now, Mr. Kodzopeljic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it says the chief of

21     the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army has prohibited the deliveries of

22     weapons and materiel to the Army of Republika Srpska and the Serbian

23     Krajina which would endanger the norms that should be within the troop

24     reserves of units and the critical assets at the level of the army.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  That paragraph is on the

Page 12470

 1     next page in the English version.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we go to the next page in the English

 4     version so that Judge Moloto is able to see that information.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith, we are long ready.  Thank

 6     you so much.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Oh.  Just wanted to make sure that you had an

 8     opportunity to see the information.

 9             I would move for the admission of this document.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

11     please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D393, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I use the word "finally," I intend to

15     maintain that position, but if I could have but a brief moment for

16     conversation with my colleagues just to make sure that the "finally" is

17     finally.  I would appreciate it.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:

21        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Kodzopeljic, for your time and your

22     patience.  My colleague on the other side of the room, I believe, may

23     have a question or three to ask you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If I could just have a

Page 12471

 1     moment to organise myself with the lectern, sir.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, you may have the moment.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thomas:

 4        Q.   Mr. Kodzopeljic, good afternoon.  My name is Barney Thomas.  I'm

 5     a lawyer with the Prosecution.  I have the opportunity now, sir, to ask

 6     you some questions about the testimony you have given over the last few

 7     days.  I ask you, please, to listen carefully to the questions that I

 8     ask.  Answer only the question that have I asked, and if you need any

 9     further clarification from me regarding any of my questions, please let

10     me know.

11             Is that clear, sir?

12        A.   Clear.

13        Q.   I want to go back just to the first page of the document that we

14     see on the screen, please.

15             Now we see that that is dated September 1993.  And we see from

16     the list of names that you, at that time, occupied the position of the

17     deputy chief of the technical administration; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, that document can come off the screen

21     now.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. THOMAS:

24        Q.   The technical administration is part of the logistics sector of

25     the General Staff of the VJ; is that correct?

Page 12472

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You went from the deputy chief of the technical administration to

 3     the chief of the technical administration.

 4        A.   Well, that's not quite accurate.

 5        Q.   Did you stay as -- did you stay in the technical administration

 6     throughout the period of the war in Bosnia, in 1993 to 1995?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   At any point during that period did you become the head of the

 9     technical administration?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   The technical administration was, as I've already said, part of

12     the logistics sector of the General Staff of the VJ.

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   As chief of that administration, you would have been subordinated

15     to General Milovanovic who was the head of the logistics sector; is that

16     right?

17        A.   No.  He was the assistant chief of the General Staff for

18     logistics, and I was his subordinate.

19        Q.   Okay.  His immediate superior was General Perisic.

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   So you spent the entire period of 1993 to 1995 in the

22     General Staff of the VJ.

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   You remained in the General Staff of the VJ until 1999.

25        A.   Correct.

Page 12473

 1        Q.   Can you tell us, sir, what is the 30th Personnel Centre?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know that for certain.  I can't really be precise.

 3     Because, for me, of the chief of the technical administration, I had no

 4     ties to that administration.  I had no orders or did I have -- nor did I

 5     have any need to have any kind of cooperation with them.

 6        Q.   Well, sir, tell us what you know.

 7        A.   As far as I can remember, this was an institution that was

 8     established in Belgrade in order to enhance the cooperation between the

 9     Yugoslav Army and the Army of Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   And how did it do that, sir?

11        A.   I don't know that.

12        Q.   No idea?

13        A.   No.  That was irrelevant for my work, for my job.

14        Q.   You were six years in the General Staff and you don't know.

15        A.   I can just repeat that I had no common tasks with them that we

16     should resolve together.

17        Q.   Sir, we have looked at a number of material lists over the last

18     three day, haven't we?

19             A number of those refer to purported deliveries to the 30th

20     Personnel Centre.  As someone involved in logistics for six years as part

21     of the General Staff of the VJ, can you please explain to us, in the

22     context of deliveries of weapons and ammunition to the 30th Personnel

23     Centre, what that means?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please kindly speak into his

25     microphone.  Thank you.

Page 12474

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know in what sense you mean

 2     that, in what sense you want me to be more precise in my answer.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just in case you haven't do so yet, there is a

 4     request from the interpreters that you try to speak closely to your

 5     microphone.  I guess they find it a little hard to hear you,

 6     Mr. Kodzopeljic.

 7             MR. THOMAS:

 8        Q.   On delivery slips that we have seen, sir, the 30th Personnel

 9     Centre is named as the recipient, or intended recipient, of weapons and

10     ammunition.  Why, sir?

11        A.   I don't know the reason.

12        Q.   Can you tell us why the chief of the technical administration of

13     the logistics sector of the VJ General Staff doesn't know the answer to

14     that question?

15        A.   As I have said, we took care of the quantities that we had in our

16     warehouses, and we issued them as we received orders from our superiors

17     so that we did not keep track.  No documents were sent through the

18     technical department.  They were sent from the logistics basis, the 8th

19     logistics basis.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure that the number is

21     correct.

22             MR. THOMAS:

23        Q.   I'm not sure I follow you, sir.  Can you please explain why you,

24     holding the position that you did, cannot give us the answer to that

25     question?

Page 12475

 1        A.   I repeat, any order that was sent relating to supplies that was

 2     sent from the chief of the General Staff would go to either the 6th

 3     logistics base or through the army command.  It will not go through the

 4     technical administration.

 5        Q.   That doesn't explain, sir, why you, holding the position that you

 6     did in the General Staff from 1993 to 1999 does not know what that

 7     reference to the 30th Personnel Centre means.  What does it mean?

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  At this point I must rise, since the question has

 9     now been asked on a number of occasions.  He has received an answer on a

10     number of occasions.  It may not be the answer that he wishes, but,

11     nonetheless the question has been asked and answered now.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

13             MR. THOMAS:

14        Q.   Knowing, sir --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, Mr. Thomas, there is an objection.

16             MR. THOMAS:  Oh, I'm sorry.  I withdraw the question.  Sorry,

17     Your Honours.

18        Q.   Now, knowing, sir, what you know today, do you still not know the

19     answer to that question?

20        A.   I can say with full responsibility that only yesterday I read in

21     a book some details about that centre.

22        Q.   You discovered yesterday for the first time, sir?

23        A.   Well, I don't know how you understood what I said.  I told you

24     that I read some details yesterday, and I've already said that I knew

25     certain things which were of general nature that I was aware of.

Page 12476

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Could we please have Exhibit P1009 on the screen.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm advised that e-court is not responding.  But I

 4     guess that's -- they're still trying to do their best.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Looks like it's going to need a technician,

 7     Mr. Thomas, to be called in.

 8             If you are able to go to something else that doesn't need a

 9     document on the screen while we're waiting for the technician, it might

10     be of help.  If it's possible.

11             MR. THOMAS:  Let me just check for a moment, sir.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see something on the screen now.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Ah, thank you, Your Honour.  And I want page 3 in

14     the B/C/S, please, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Please take a moment to read that document, sir.

16        A.   I can see it.

17        Q.   What position did you hold in 1994?

18        A.   I was the chief of the technical administration.

19        Q.   What does that document mean, sir?

20        A.   This is an order by the president of the FRY on supplying the

21     30th and 40th Personnel Centre with weapons and military equipment.

22        Q.   And when the president of the federal republic orders the supply

23     of the 30th and 40th Personnel Centre with weapons and military

24     equipment, presumably the logistics sector of the VJ General Staff would

25     have been aware of that?

Page 12477

 1        A.   Yes.  You said that correctly.  It was the logistics, or the rear

 2     sector.

 3        Q.   So can you please tell me what supplying the 30th and 40th

 4     Personnel Centres with weapons and military equipment means?

 5        A.   I don't know that.  I see this order for the first time.  It is

 6     strictly confidential, and they are recorded separately.

 7        Q.   It suggests, does it not -- well, it expressly states, does it

 8     not, that the chief of the General Staff is responsible for putting this

 9     into effect?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, that is pushing it a bit.  It says that

11     he's authorised.  It doesn't say responsible.  One being authorised one

12     being responsible are distinct.  At least in English.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Well, let's take -- I can rephrase the question,

14     Your Honours.

15        Q.   We can see that, as at 1994, there was an order from the

16     president of the federal republic to supply arms to the 30th and 40th

17     Personnel Centres; correct?

18        A.   And military equipment too.

19        Q.   The chief of the General Staff was authorised to reconcile the

20     requests of the 30th and 40th Personnel Centre with the means of the army

21     to deliver on those requests, wasn't he, by that order?

22        A.   One could put it that way, yes.

23        Q.   The logistics sector is immediately subordinated to the chief of

24     the General Staff of the VJ.

25        A.   Yes, that's right.

Page 12478

 1        Q.   You were the technical -- you were the chief of the technical

 2     administration at the time.

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   How do you not know what this document means?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Has he said so?  Did he say he doesn't know what

 6     it means.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  He says he hasn't seen it, sir.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, those are two different things.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.  One is he hasn't seen it, but now that

10     he's seeing it.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  But then you're saying how do you say -- how

12     can you say -- how do you not know what this document means?  What I'm

13     asking you is, has he said he doesn't know what it means.

14             MR. THOMAS:  He says he hasn't seen it.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  That's a different story.

16             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But does that mean he doesn't know what means?

18             MR. THOMAS:  Well, that's what I'm asking him, sir.  Reading it

19     now for the first time --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but the question is -- there is no connection

21     between the two questions.

22             MR. THOMAS:  I understand that, sir.  I will rephrase it.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please.

24             MR. THOMAS:

25        Q.   What was the logistics sector responsible for?

Page 12479

 1        A.   In what sense do you mean?

 2        Q.   In a general sense.

 3        A.   The rear, or logistics sector, was in charge of providing

 4     technical support, medical support, quartermaster supplies, veterinary

 5     support, and construction support.

 6        Q.   And support to whom?

 7        A.   The whole army.

 8        Q.   And we see from this document that includes the 30th and 40th

 9     Personnel Centres.

10        A.   I don't know what you mean.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  We can take that off the

13     screen.

14             Can we have document P575 on the screen, please.

15        Q.   Now you may recall, sir, that when you looked at this document

16     yesterday you were asked about whether the handwriting at the very top

17     next to the number 044, either 6 or 8 or 0, at 0641, was the word

18     "Tisca," and you told us that you couldn't see any writing there.

19             MR. THOMAS:  And, Your Honours, I have the original of that

20     document, please.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, I'm -- I assume that Mr. Thomas intends on

23     showing the witness the document, and I certainly have no trouble in that

24     regard.  I should also inform the Court that I have seen the document.

25     Mr. Thomas was kind enough to show me the document prior to the

Page 12480

 1     proceedings today and, having seen the original of the document, as he

 2     confirmed previously with regard to documents in which insertions were

 3     made in the English that did not exist, I can tell that you I have seen

 4     the original and the word handwritten "Tisca" does appear to the

 5     satisfaction of the Defence.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  I'm grateful for that indication, Your Honours.  I

 8     need not deal with that document.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But before do you that, just so that the Chamber

10     is with the both of you.

11             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What are we talking about?  Unfortunately, I've

13     been trying to get this exhibit on my -- the screen that can I control,

14     so I can enlarge it enough for me to see.  This size can't I read.  Where

15     is this Tisca now again?

16             MR. THOMAS:  If Your Honour looks at the right-hand side, right

17     at the very top right-hand corner of the English translation.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Top.  All right.

19             MR. THOMAS:  There is handwritten entered "Tisca."

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On the B/C/S which -- yeah.  Handwritten, yeah.

21             MR. THOMAS:  And there was dispute yesterday as to whether or not

22     it appeared on the B/C/S.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  What I understand is that Mr. Thomas went back

25     and obtained the original from the archives.  It was a matter that I

Page 12481

 1     think you at some discussed with regard -- no, I don't know if it was

 2     specifically for this document or other documents.  I had an opportunity

 3     to look at the document --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- with Mr. Thomas, and as I said, the Defence

 6     agrees that that handwritten word is there.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 8             Yes, Mr. Thomas, you may proceed.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  There is one other, sir,

10     that I'd like to just clarify.  If we can have P581 on the screen.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith is on his feet again.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard to this document, if I'm not

13     mistaken, there had been an examination as to whether or not there was or

14     was not a signature in box number 36.  I've had an opportunity once again

15     to review the original, it was taken from the archives, and having

16     examined the original as taken from the archives, I would concur with

17     what I believe is my colleague's position, that there is in fact a

18     signature that can be seen on the original document which is not to be

19     found on the copy that we have been reviewing.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas --

21             MR. THOMAS:  Again, it's --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- may I suggest that if there are any other

23     documents that the two of you have discussed and over which you have come

24     to an agreement, can we just list them for the record and skip them if

25     you are agreed and forget asking the witness about it so that we can move

Page 12482

 1     on to some other issues that are contentious.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  There are none, sir.  There are just those two.

 3             Can we have document P573 on the screen, please.

 4        Q.   Sir, while this document is coming up on the screen, you were

 5     taken to a number of material lists over the last few days where you were

 6     asked to comment on the absence of materiel -- no, the absence of

 7     appropriate entries being made in the document and in particularly in

 8     relation to box 4, where the name and address of sender would not be

 9     recorded.

10             You see that this is one of those documents.  The question I have

11     for you though, sir, is that there are, despite the absence of any

12     entries in box number 4, there are other indicators on that document of

13     who the sender of materiel was, isn't there?

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would have to for the first time make an

15     objection that I don't think I've made here, which is argumentative by

16     virtue of the use of the term "despite."

17             That that would qualify the question asked as being

18     argumentative.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

20             MR. THOMAS:  I'm not going to waste time, Your Honour.  I can

21     rephrase the question.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

23             MR. THOMAS:

24        Q.   One way to tell who sent materiel was to look at box 4, isn't it?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 12483

 1        Q.   Another way to determine who sent materiel is to look at other

 2     boxes in the document, isn't it?

 3        A.   No.  Without that particular box, you cannot see who sent it.  It

 4     identifies the sender.

 5        Q.   Look at box number 3 -- sorry.  Look at box number 2, sir.

 6        A.   Please zoom in.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]  ...zoom in the

 8     English, please.

 9             MR. THOMAS:

10        Q.   Do you see an entry for the military post of the sender?

11        A.   No.  It says military post, MFO, or financial organ, of the

12     fourth level or degree, which needn't necessarily be the sender.

13        Q.   You see the place of the sender in box number 11?

14        A.   I see it.

15        Q.   We see also the box above that which shows the military

16     bookkeeping centre of this particular sender, don't we?

17        A.   Nis, yes.

18        Q.   Just for our own assistance, sir, where are Paracin and Nis?

19        A.   Paracin is to the north of Nis.  Nis is to the south of Paracin.

20     We can say that Nis is in the south of Serbia and Paracin in central

21     Serbia.

22        Q.   Okay.  Sir, that's my question.  Thank you.  If we scroll to the

23     right-hand side of the document, a name has just caught my eye.

24             We see there the recipient being the Drina Corps Command and the

25     destination station of the receiver being Tisca; is that right?

Page 12484

 1        A.   Destination station Tisca, correct.

 2        Q.   Can we go down to the bottom right-hand corner of the document,

 3     sir.  We have seen many of these, namely a signature and a stamp of the

 4     receiver, and, presumably, the regulations require these to be placed on

 5     the document once delivery has been received.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, we can take that document off the

 9     screen.

10             And can we please have document -- Exhibit P576 on the screen.

11        Q.   Now, sir, you were also asked about a number of entries where the

12     sender was shown as being the General Staff of the VJ, and a number of

13     those entries had a name in brackets afterwards.  For example, this

14     document, "Bog. Banja."  You see that?

15        A.   Yes, I see it.

16        Q.   And if we look at the first line of what is supplied, it appears

17     to be something in relation to a shape -- something in relation to a

18     self-propelled M-18 gun; is that right?

19        A.   No.  It says round, 76 millimetres.

20        Q.   For what, sir?

21        A.   For a self-propelled piece called M-18.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, is there a military post called

23     Bogutovacka Banja?

24        A.   No, there isn't.

25        Q.   There is no VJ Military Post in Bogutovacka Banja?

Page 12485

 1        A.   I don't know that.

 2        Q.   Where is Bogutovacka Banja?

 3        A.   In central Serbia.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Can we go to document P1269, please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Just before we do that.  Can we get some

 7     clarification with regard to the English translation of "self-propelled

 8     gun."

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Would Mr. Guy-Smith please move a little closer

10     to his microphone.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, I do apologise.  Could we get some --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] Put it a little closer, put

13     it a little closer.  That's better.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we get some clarification with regard to

15     the translation here of "self-propelled gun."  It now says

16     "self-propelled piece," and I don't know which particular translation

17     we're dealing with.  A gun is certainly distinct for a piece and to the

18     extent that these documents have exhibited difficulties with the

19     information contained therein and to the extent that the Chamber is going

20     to be relying on these documents for whatever purpose, ultimately.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where does it say piece?

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The witness said piece.  The document in English

23     says gun.  It says "/self-propelled gun/," and there seems to be a

24     distinction here.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Shouldn't then we -- I guess we rather know what a

Page 12486

 1     self-propelled gun is.  Shouldn't we get a translation of what the

 2     witness meant by piece?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That would be fine, Your Honour.  It's just

 4     before we leave the document, I think we have some clarification.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And can the witness also confirm that he said

 6     "piece" and not "gun."

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  He said self-propelled piece on line 7 -- at page

 8     71, line 25.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.  What do you mean by

10     self-propelled piece, Mr. Kodzopeljic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A self-propelled piece.  M-18 is an

12     asset with a mounted gun.  It's a 30-ton piece.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But I also heard you say what is ordered here are

14     rounds, not -- what -- I mustn't put words into your mouth.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't make this out precisely but

16     it says "Metak," I think.  Metak, 76 millimetres, meaning round.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Can we have P1269 on the screen, please.

19        Q.   You will see, sir, that this is a document dated 19

20     November 1993.

21             MR. THOMAS:  Can we please go to the second page in the English.

22        Q.   You can see from the document, sir, that it is issued by one

23     Lieutenant-Colonel Jevrem Cokic.  Do you know what position he held at

24     that time, sir?

25        A.   No.  It's Lieutenant-General Jevrem Cokic, 1st Army Commander.

Page 12487

 1        Q.   He is commander of the 1st Army?

 2        A.   At the time, yes.

 3        Q.   Of the VJ?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  Can we go back to the first page in the English,

 6     Your Honours.

 7        Q.   If you look, please, General -- sorry, Mr. Kodzopeljic, at the

 8     first paragraph of the document, I want to ask you, first of all, the

 9     same question that His Honour Judge Moloto asked you.  There's a

10     reference to an order issued by the chief of the General Staff of the VJ,

11     and what we have in the English translation is:  "Please issue from the

12     below-stated VPs, military posts, the following types and quantities of

13     ammunition for the needs of the General Staff of the Main Staff of the

14     Army of Republika Srpska."

15             And my question, sir, is:  Is it correct that the term there is

16     "please issue," or is it the imperative version, as you stated before?

17        A.   It's in the imperative.

18        Q.   Could we please scroll down to point number 4 in the English.

19             Now, that is an instruction to a Military Post number 5292-1 in

20     Bogutovacka Banja to issue rounds for a self-propelled -- 76-millimetre

21     rounds for a self-propelled M-18 weapon, isn't it?

22        A.   Yes, for that self-propelled weapon or piece, yes.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Could we please look at document P575.

24        Q.   Now we have the sender's details in box number 4 being, again,

25     defective in your view.  We have military post -- I'm sorry, we have an

Page 12488

 1     entry 5, question mark 92, Mrsac Kraljevo.  Was there a VJ Military Post

 2     number 5292 in Mrsac?

 3        A.   I am not certain.  Although I suppose as much.

 4        Q.   Well, if there -- okay.  We will see there that the second entry

 5     of materiel includes 2.000 rifle grenades.  Do you see that?

 6        A.   I see that written by hand in my version of the document.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And there is --

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Can we go back to P1269, please, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Now, while the English is being blown up, look at point number 3,

10     please.

11        A.   I see it.

12        Q.   You see a reference there to Military Post 5292, Mrsac.  You see

13     that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   To supply 2.000 -- amongst other things 2.000 pieces -- 2.000

16     rifle grenades.  Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   And this was the same document we were looking at a moment ago

19     which is the order of the 1st Army commander based on the decision of

20     General Perisic.  And we will see that the date of that order --

21             MR. THOMAS:  If we scroll to the top of the English, please.

22        Q.   -- is 19 November 1993.  Do you agree?

23        A.   It says contact-fuse rifle grenade.  Not just rifle grenade.

24        Q.   Okay.  Do you agree, sir, that the date of the order is 19

25     November 1993.

Page 12489

 1        A.   On my document, it also says the 19th of November of 1993.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, I have one remaining delivery slip

 3     relevant to this document.  I can deal with it very quickly and that will

 4     be the end of the delivery slips, if you will grant me the indulgence to

 5     just continue for a few moments.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your opposite number is on his feet.

 7             Mr. Guy-Smith.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm just unclear about one thing because you say

10     Mr. Thomas is referring to "an order" and he also used the term

11     "decision," and in the English of P1269 the first paragraph discusses an

12     order ST conference number 6748-2 of 12.11.1993 by commander of the

13     GS VJ, General Staff of Yugoslavia, and another one, which is 6748-1 of

14     12.11.1993.  And I'm unclear as to whether or not he is referring to that

15     as being the order or the document itself that he is discussing with

16     Mr. Kodzopeljic being the order.

17             If we could just have some clarification, I would appreciate it.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

19             MR. THOMAS:  I was referring to the order of the 1st Army

20     commander, sir.

21             So if we could go -- if I can be permitted to continue for just a

22     few moments, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

24             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.

25             The last document, please, P578.

Page 12490

 1        Q.   If you look in box number 4, sir, we have a reference to the

 2     sender being the Yugoslav Army General Staff Bogovada.  Where is

 3     Bogovada, sir?

 4        A.   In my document it says VJ Bogovadza, and as I told you already it

 5     is in central Serbia.  It's a warehouse.  I can tell that you in that

 6     particular warehouse there was materiel stored originating or being

 7     assigned to a number of different military posts.

 8        Q.   So do you now suggest, sir, that the reference in box number 4 is

 9     likely to that warehouse?

10        A.   That is my presumption.

11        Q.   And maybe to add force to your presumption, if we look at the

12     materiel supplied we have 7.9-millimetre rounds, 800.000 -- 800.100.  Do

13     you see that?

14        A.   Yes.  800.100 pieces.  However, this is only my presumption.  It

15     was entered by the handler or actually the person receiving it.  It is

16     the same handwriting.  He presumed it had arrived from that particular

17     warehouse in Serbia.  He was probably told or learned by other means that

18     this was so.  However, I can't tell you with any precision that it was

19     indeed sent by the military post in Bogovadza.  I would need additional

20     documents to corroborate, if this is actually true.

21             MR. THOMAS:  If we go to P1269 for the last time.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought you said this was the last document.

23             MR. THOMAS:  This was the last document to enable me to finish

24     1269, sir.

25        Q.   This is the same 1st Army document we were -- 1st Army order we

Page 12491

 1     were looking at before, sir, and you will see entry number 1,

 2     Military Post VP 8236, Bogovadza, 800.000 rounds of 7.9 ammunition.  You

 3     see that, sir?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   One last question before we finish.  Can you tell the name of the

 6     book, sir, that you were reading that was telling you all about the 30th

 7     Personnel Centre?

 8        A.   It was written by Colonel Vuksic.  I don't know the title.

 9        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

10             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             Mr. Kodzopeljic, just to remind you once again that you are not

13     supposed to discuss the case until you are excused from testifying.  We

14     stand adjourned to tomorrow, 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom II.

15             Court adjourned.

16                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.08 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of July,

18                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.