Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13366

 1                           Thursday, 2 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Could we please call the case, Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Momcilo Perisic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             Could we have the appearances for the day, starting with the

14     Prosecution.

15             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, counsel,

16     everyone in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata, and

17     Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             And for the Defence.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

21     morning to everybody in the courtroom.  Appearing for Mr. Perisic today

22     are Boris Zorko, Tina Drolec, and Novak Lukic.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             Good morning, Mr. Novakovic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

Page 13367

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Novakovic.  You know what

 2     I'm going to be saying, that you've taken the declaration to tell the

 3     truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.  Thank you so

 4     much.

 5             Mr. Harmon.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           WITNESS:  MILE NOVAKOVIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]

10        Q.   Good morning, General Novakovic.

11        A.   Good morning, Mr. Harmon.

12        Q.   At the end of the session, we ran out of time, but you had asked

13     to see a document that -- and which I had reviewed with you paragraphs 11

14     and 12.  So let me call that document up to the screen because you wanted

15     to refer to paragraph 2 of that document.

16             MR. HARMON:  Could I have 65 ter 5989 on the screen, please.

17     Could we - let me see - go to the first page in the English, please.  I'd

18     like to display paragraph 2.  It's probably the first page of the

19     Serbian-language version as well.  No, it's not that page.

20        Q.   You can see the bottom of page 2 -- paragraph 2 in this, General.

21     We will turn the page so you can see the next page as well after you have

22     a chance to review the first portion of paragraph 2.

23             MR. HARMON:  If we could turn to --

24        Q.   Have you had a chance to review paragraph 2?

25             MR. HARMON:  Could we turn to the next page in the Serbian

Page 13368

 1     language.

 2        Q.   And --

 3        A.   Mr. Harmon, I believe that that was the preceding documents that

 4     you quoted extensive passages from and not this one, I think.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Sorry, I did not get a translation.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you sure you're on the same -- the correct

 7     channel, number 4, channel 4?

 8             MR. HARMON:  I have a slight problem with my plug here.  It

 9     wasn't -- okay.  I can read the answer.

10        Q.   Okay.  Then we will change to the other document.

11             MR. HARMON:  Could I have Prosecution Exhibit 2919 on the

12     monitor, please.  And, again, I would like the first page of the English,

13     and it is undoubtedly the first page of the Serbian version as well.

14        Q.   Okay.  General, you see in front of you paragraph 2.  It comes in

15     under the section of "Violations of the Cease-Fire."  Is that the section

16     you wanted to review and comment on?

17        A.   [No verbal response]

18        Q.   You have to answer audibly, sir.

19        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

20        Q.   All right.

21             MR. HARMON:  Then if we could -- for the witness, can you then go

22     to the next page in the Serbian language so he can review -- actually,

23     that's the section I think that the witness wanted to comment on.

24        Q.   Sir, what is your comment in respect of paragraph 2 of this

25     document?

Page 13369

 1        A.   It would be useful for me if I were to have this in front of my

 2     eyes, Mr. Harmon.  I apologise.  That would be on the preceding page, the

 3     one that you showed just earlier.

 4        Q.   All right.  Is that -- it should -- it appears now on the screen.

 5     The preceding page is on the monitor.  Yes, sir.  I invite your comment.

 6        A.   First of all, thank you for your effort, Mr. Harmon, for allowing

 7     me to see this.  I need this because you said - and by that you started

 8     that part of your intervention - that my statement was false, that the

 9     area of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was demilitarised and that that

10     claim was false because there existed paramilitary forces called

11     "posebne," or special units, of police.  Here and now I would like to

12     responding [as interpreted] to your thesis.

13             Special units of police were what today are anti-terrorist units,

14     which means for each such unit in the world which are specialised for

15     performing such tasks may in a sense be regarded as paramilitary if that

16     term, "paramilitary," encompasses their purpose, their equipment, their

17     training, and the character of tasks that they perform.  My claim, and I

18     repeat it, is this:  Special units of police were part and parcel of the

19     regular forces of police in the Republic of Serbian Krajina, that is, in

20     the UN protected areas.  Realistic -- in accordance with realistic needs

21     and the forms of threats to the population, they were structured in the

22     same way that police forces are structured around the world when taken

23     into account the character of threat to the population.

24             Mr. Harmon, you may know -- now say that in this document it is

25     stated that these are such forces.  But let's take things one at a time.

Page 13370

 1     For instance, in paragraph 2 it reads, in the row 3 in the Serbian

 2     language:

 3             "However, tension has been high in Sector South, particularly in

 4     the areas of the Peruca Dam, the Miljevci Plateau," and this is

 5     characteristic only in brackets, Mr. Harmon, "(where there was a

 6     Croatian army incursion on the 21st of June 1992) and Zemunik Airport; in

 7     these areas, heavy machine-guns and light mortars have sometimes been

 8     used."

 9             My thesis stays, Mr. Harmon, that in conditions where UNPROFOR

10     deployed in companies, in camps, encircled with wire with couple of

11     check-points along roads which control nobody and nothing, means that

12     anybody who is responsible for the security of the population in an area

13     should have sufficient force that would prevent such conduct or events.

14             I'm going to continue with the page 3.

15             If you allow me, let me focus --

16        Q.   Sir, if you could concentrate your mind and just distill what you

17     wanted to say very briefly.  I don't want to spend an enormous amount of

18     time on this.  You've testified earlier that one of the reasons these

19     forces existed was to prevent and to protect the Serbian population from

20     Croatian incursions.  That is in your testimony on direct examination.

21     You've made that point.  Do you have anything else, any other point you'd

22     like to make in respect of paragraph 2?

23        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

24        Q.   Could you do so succinctly, please.

25        A.   Referring to this document, you treat it as a judgement, as if it

Page 13371

 1     were a document whereby a panel of judges has determined the facts beyond

 2     reasonable doubt.  And this is how you treat that document, this is how

 3     you see it.  However, Mr. Harmon, this is a political document par

 4     excellence.  Therefore, between it and a possible judgement, there is a

 5     huge chasm, there is a huge difference.  And I'm invoking paragraph 2 to

 6     illustrate that.

 7             You see the words "where there's been an incursion of the

 8     Croatian army on 21st of June, 1992," is put in brackets.  It doesn't say

 9     that 40 people were killed, that their bodies were thrown into ravines,

10     and many of them have never been found.  You think this is insignificant?

11     What I mean:  Such documents reflect the relationship and the relations

12     of power in political sense, and these are documents which try to balance

13     out political power, which means some things are emphasised, some things

14     are interpreted in a certain way, certain marginal things come to the

15     fore, and some important things become marginalised.  And this is what I

16     illustrate on the basis of paragraph 2.

17             If you allow me, let's go to paragraph 3.

18        Q.   Sir, paragraph 3 speaks for itself.  It identifies a number of

19     major incidents, as characterised, in which Serbs were the victims of

20     Croatian incursions.  That's what paragraph 3 reflects.  That is what

21     this document reports to the Security Council.  This document is a report

22     to the Security Council.  And if you have -- I don't want to go into

23     detail on each one of these incidents that's described, or any other

24     incidents.

25             Have you concluded, sir, then your comments in respect of

Page 13372

 1     paragraph 2?

 2        A.   Yes, with respect to paragraph 2, I've finished my comments,

 3     Mr. Harmon.

 4        Q.   All right.  Thank you, sir.

 5             Now, what I would like to do very succinctly and quickly with

 6     you, General Novakovic, is have you affirm the following facts for me.  I

 7     will explain the fact to you -- in fact, General, on -- when the

 8     Territorial Defence and the special police units in approximately

 9     November of 1992 -- when the -- let me rephrase the question.

10             When the SVK was reorganised in November of 1992, the special

11     police units were absorbed into the SVK, were they not?

12        A.   That's correct, Mr. Harmon.  But you have not allowed me to

13     comment on the thesis concerning the falsehood of my claims about the

14     events with General Nambiar and Mr. Goulding.  But, however, the answer

15     to this question is yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  Can you comment on the claim -- can you comment on what we

17     discussed with -- what you testified to in -- with General Nambiar and

18     Marrack Goulding?  Can you do that succinctly, sir?  Apparently you want

19     to make a comment on your previous testimony.  Can you do that

20     succinctly?

21        A.   [No verbal response]

22        Q.   I can't hear -- I need to have an audible answer for the record.

23     You have to say either yes or no.  If you shake your head up and down,

24     the court reporter can't record that.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13373

 1        Q.   Okay, okay.  Would you then comment succinctly, sir, on what you

 2     want to say about General Nambiar and Marrack Goulding.

 3        A.   Believe me, Mr. Harmon, it is first and foremost in my best

 4     interest to provide succinct answers because I'm growing weary.

 5             You did not believe that Mr. Goulding was positively -- has had a

 6     positive attitude with respect to the demilitarisation of the Republic of

 7     Serbian Krajina.  I remember very well that after the meeting with

 8     Mr. Marrack Goulding in Knin that we were in a euphoric state because

 9     finally somebody said something positive about what we said.  What

10     happened between Knin and Jurik [phoen] when this report was finally

11     presented, I don't know.  But I can tell you what I remember quite well.

12             If I were to have something that I do not know and I don't need,

13     a team, then I would be able to show you General Nambiar's interviews

14     after his mandate was finished --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  General Novakovic, just tell us exactly what

16     happened between you and General Nambiar.  You've talked now for about

17     ten lines and you have still not told us enough of what happened between

18     you and Mr. Nambiar.

19             Why were you -- Why did the meeting end in euphoria?  What

20     happened?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I previously said, Your Honours,

22     that General Nambiar had no objections to the conduct of the Serbian side

23     in the implementation of the Vance Plan.

24             Mr. Harmon --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You see, you have told us that in your evidence in

Page 13374

 1     chief.  Mr. Harmon has shown you reports that state the contrary.  Now,

 2     you are supposed to comment on the reports that state the contrary, to

 3     show that what you are saying is correct and not what the report

 4     contains.  And that's what Mr. Harmon is giving you a chance to do.

 5     Please tell us that without repeating what you told us in evidence in

 6     chief.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only supplement that I know

 8     well that after leaving the mandate, General Nambiar gave interviews to

 9     international media which reflect what he told us in personal contacts,

10     and that was that the Serbian side, as opposed to the other side,

11     supported and implemented the Vance Plan.

12             MR. HARMON:

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, let me return to the topic I was discussing

14     with you, which was the absorption of the special police units into the

15     SVK.  What I'd like you to do is confirm the following information, if

16     you would:  The 80th Special Police Unit, of which you were commander,

17     was incorporated into the 21st Corps, was it not?

18        A.   That's correct, Mr. Harmon.

19        Q.   And did it retain the same designation that it had?  In other

20     words, when it was incorporated into the 21st Corps, was it a unit that

21     remained intact and was called the special police unit, or did it have

22     another designation?

23        A.   The 80th Brigade of Special Units of Police ceased to exist as a

24     unit.  The men from those units, in accordance with their skills, were

25     deployed into the units of the 21st Corps.

Page 13375

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, the 75th Special Police Unit from Knin and the

 2     92nd Special Police Unit from Benkovac were absorbed into the 7th Corps;

 3     is that correct?

 4        A.   Those units did not enter, but the men entered those units based

 5     on their competences for military service in the area -- in the units

 6     which were established in Northern Dalmatia, and that would be the

 7     7th Corps.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, the men who were in the 79th Special Police Unit in

 9     Korenica were absorbed into the Lika Corps; correct?

10        A.   They were accepted into the units of the Lika Corps, yes.

11        Q.   Men of the 83rd Special Police Units from Petrinje were absorbed

12     into the 39th Corps; do you affirm that?

13        A.   I can confirm that.  I can confirm for all the other units of

14     special units of police that in their areas of responsibility were

15     disbanded, and their men, as such, entered units of the newly established

16     SVK.  That's correct.  That's what I can confirm.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well, let me -- just for the record, so it's complete,

18     that would include:  The 85th Special Police from Okucani were absorbed

19     into the 18th Corps; the 87th Special Police from Vukovar were absorbed

20     into the 11th Corps; and the men from the 90th Special Police Unit in

21     Beli Manastir were absorbed into the 11th Corps.  Correct?

22        A.   Men from those units, but units as such were disbanded just as in

23     every other zone or area of responsibility.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. HARMON:  Could I have a Defence -- let me see.  Just one

Page 13376

 1     minute.  I may have the wrong exhibit.

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             MR. HARMON:  Could I have Defence Exhibit 442 MFI on the monitor,

 4     please.

 5             While we're waiting for the document to come up, could I have the

 6     last exhibit admitted into evidence; it's 65 ter 5989.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Exhibit 5989 is admitted into evidence.  May it

 8     please be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2920.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. HARMON:

12        Q.   Sir, this is an entry from the -- General Mladic's diary from --

13     of a meeting that took place on the 8th of November, 1993.  You reviewed

14     this with Defence counsel in proofing and testified extensively about it

15     in the course of your evidence in chief.  This is the meeting at which

16     the Drina Plan was ordered to be prepared by President Milosevic, isn't

17     it?

18        A.   I did not understand what kind of plan you meant, Mr. Harmon.

19        Q.   I meant the plan that ultimately became known as the Drina Plan.

20     You testified -- you testified earlier about a portion of --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are receiving a slightly different

23     interpretation into Serbian.  Mr. Harmon is referring to the Drina Plan.

24     So that the witness is not confused.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I get the interpretation

Page 13377

 1     "Drinski" Plan instead of "Drina" plan.

 2             MR. HARMON:

 3        Q.   I haven't heard of that plan yet, so it's the Drina Plan is what

 4     I'm referring to, sir.

 5             So this is where -- this is the meeting.  As you can see, you

 6     attended.  You can see the people who were present.  It was a large

 7     number of people in the political hierarchy in the Federal Republic

 8     of Yugoslavia, of the RSK, and of the RS, as well as military leaders

 9     from those entities.  There was a significant number of attendees.  And

10     it was at that meeting that Mr. Milosevic said to start compiling a

11     single war plan and define how to continue waging the war, a single plan

12     for all of the three armies.

13             I just want you to confirm that this is the meeting where that

14     took place?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess he said -- he confirmed that in chief.

16             MR. HARMON:  Okay.  Well, then, I want to move to a different

17     element of this document.

18        Q.   Sir, if I could turn to - just get the right page.

19             MR. HARMON:  If I could turn to page -- the next page in the

20     English version.  And if I could turn to -- I think it's the next page in

21     the Serbian-language version as well.

22        Q.   Do you see in your language, sir, a section that says

23     "Our Objective"?  Do you see that, sir?

24        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

25        Q.   Okay.  You'll see a section that says - and you testified -- you

Page 13378

 1     testified about this section in your evidence in chief.  You didn't

 2     testify about a line, however, in the section that says:

 3             "The basic precondition ..."

 4             The last line before the items that are asterisked says:

 5             "Break sanctions in every way possible."

 6             Do you see that?  Is that in your language version?  Then it

 7     should be on the -- do you see that?  If not, we'll go to the next

 8     page, sir, in the Serbian language.

 9        A.   I can see that.

10        Q.   Okay.  That's fine.  That's all I would -- okay.  Tell -- can

11     you, please --

12        A.   Yes, I can see it, Mr. Harmon.  But I don't know whether that's

13     what it says in English.  There are two lines at the beginning of the

14     paragraph, and it doesn't say "the basic objective" but "the basic

15     concept" or "idea."

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, do you -- I want to focus your attention, General, on

17     the line that says --

18        A.   As for the sanctions, it says --

19        Q.   It says:

20             "Break sanctions in every way possible" in the translation that I

21     have.  You attended that meeting.  What does that refer to, sir?  What do

22     you recall from that meeting?

23        A.   With regard to the minutes of the meeting, I remember from the

24     meeting that Mr. Milosevic spoke about the economic sanctions which had

25     been imposed on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and I remember well

Page 13379

 1     that he said that the existence of sanctions was an ideal environment for

 2     trade of all kind.  Instead of you seeking to buy weapons, people from

 3     all over the world come to you to sell it to you.  And I remember that

 4     that was exactly what Mr. Milosevic said with regard to what is noted

 5     here, to break sanctions in every way.  I believe that Mr. Milosevic was

 6     even in a good mood when he proffered that comment.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. HARMON:  Let me turn to page 25 of the English.

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             MR. HARMON:  And it's also 25 in the Serbian-language version.

11     Fine.  Thank you very much.

12        Q.   You see, I want to direct your attention to the comment next to

13     number 10.  It says:

14             "Rakic (RSK MO ..."

15             You told us he was the minister of defence.  He was an admiral,

16     wasn't he?

17        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon, he was an admiral --

18        Q.   And he was --

19        A.   -- and he was also the minister of defence of the Republic of

20     Serbian Krajina.

21        Q.   Do you know who paid his salary?

22        A.   I don't know who paid his salary, but there is no reason for me

23     not to believe that it was the ministry of the Federal Republic of

24     Yugoslavia.

25        Q.   Now, he makes a comment, and I want you to discuss with us your

Page 13380

 1     recollection of this comment and what was meant by it.  His comment is:

 2             "Our army is destitute ..."

 3             And I take it, first of all, he's referring to the SVK.  Can you

 4     confirm that?

 5        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 6        Q.   And, sir, tell us what Admiral Rakic was discussing in respect of

 7     that entry.

 8        A.   Admiral Rakic spoke -- what I had always stated at our requests

 9     for co-ordination, and that was that our situation was disastrous, that

10     we didn't have anything, and that those who were always in trenches,

11     those soldiers were in the worst situation.  They didn't have boots, they

12     didn't have uniforms, there was not enough food.  And I remember

13     perfectly at the time, Mr. Harmon, a detail that can be a good

14     illustration of the situation:  Even when there was food, there were no

15     spices; and even if food was prepared and given to the troops, they would

16     not eat it because it was not spicy, it didn't taste good.  And that's

17     what Admiral Rakic meant when he said what he did.

18        Q.   Why was Admiral Rakic raising the destitute condition of the SVK

19     at this meeting?

20        A.   Mr. Harmon, he believed that people around him were influential,

21     that they were decision-makers who could improve the situation.  At that

22     time, the most important influential and political authority was

23     Mr. Milosevic, and he was there, as well as members of the leadership of

24     Serbia, not the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia but Serbia.  And those

25     were people who could be instrumental in improving the financial and

Page 13381

 1     materiel situation of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 2        Q.   When you say those were people who could improve the financial

 3     and materiel situation of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina,

 4     are you referring to those are the people who would be in a position to

 5     provide the SVK with ammunition, for example, with tank companies, with

 6     artillery pieces, with materiel that's necessary for the standard

 7     functioning of an army?

 8        A.   If we are still talking about what the minister of defence of the

 9     Army of Srpska Krajina said, that didn't imply war equipment and materiel

10     but other types of materiel.  And what he expected from political

11     authorities was to make a decision and for the Government of the Republic

12     of Serbia together with the Government of the Republic of Serbian

13     Krajina, obviously who had not invested a lot of effort into that, to

14     find a practical solution to that issue.

15        Q.   You mentioned the types of materiel in your earlier answer:  Not

16     enough food, not enough boots, not enough uniforms.  What other types of

17     materiels was General -- Admiral Rakic referring to that the SVK needed

18     to acquire in order to function as an army?

19        A.   At that meeting, Admiral Rakic dealt with those issues that were

20     primarily within his remit.  In addition to the quartermaster's

21     equipment, Mr. Harmon, as we call it - and you said it yourself that

22     those were boots and uniforms and foodstuffs - primarily that's the fuel

23     and lubricants for the normal functioning of the Army of Republic of

24     Serbian Krajina.  We needed 800 to 1.000 tonnes a month.  It's not much,

25     but still we didn't have that.  Moreover, there was a problem with spare

Page 13382

 1     parts.  Also a problem with medical supplies.  There was a problem with

 2     repairs of our vehicles and the use of overall resources.

 3        Q.   Without that type of materiel, could the SVK have functioned as

 4     an army?

 5        A.   With the situation as it was and without all that, we managed to

 6     function in one way or another, Mr. Harmon.  But the situation

 7     deteriorated, and it was only a matter of time how long we could go on.

 8     And the consequences of -- were not suffered only by the troops and how

 9     many pieces of artillery they were ready to launch in a minute, but also

10     there was a question of the soldiers' morale.

11        Q.   Okay.  The issue on soldiers' morale is:  Without having

12     sufficient provisions, their morale deteriorated and that impacted on

13     whether they were willing to continue to serve in the SVK; correct?

14        A.   Yes, certainly, Mr. Harmon.  Unfortunately, there were men who

15     were weaker than others, and they left the territory of the Republic of

16     Serbian Krajina and their army.

17        Q.   Now --

18        A.   I believe --

19        Q.   Go on, sir.

20        A.   I apologise.  I mean people from Krajina, those who were born and

21     raised there and who resided there at the time.

22        Q.   Now, General, the next entry is your entry.  It says:

23             "We need two tank companies and one division for

24     Eastern Slavonia ..."

25             And then there are ellipses, suggesting that you continued and

Page 13383

 1     you had a lot more to say than that.

 2             What do you recall the issues you raised at that meeting?

 3        A.   Based on the command of the 11th Corps and my insight into the

 4     situation, in order to cover the entire front line, the support artillery

 5     which was meant to provide support to the defence, and in order to have

 6     some sort of manoeuvre force in the second line, I proffered a realistic

 7     military assessment.  I thought that we needed those things, and that's

 8     what I requested.

 9        Q.   And did you request any ammunition, any artillery pieces, beside

10     tanks?  Did you request any other sort of materiel at that meeting?

11        A.   That was just the basic requirement.  I always repeated my

12     requirements.  I must have been wearing people out.  I always repeated

13     that our equipment was exhausted, our ammunition was exhausted; and

14     always repeated those requests with regard to the equipment and materiel.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said, I always repeated

17     those requests and I'm sure that I -- that people found me boring.  And

18     that was not recorded.  That was never mentioned.

19             MR. HARMON:

20        Q.   Did you say that, sir?  Can you confirm that that's what you

21     said?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you not say you were wearing people out?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that most

Page 13384

 1     probably my requests were wearing people out, that people found me boring

 2     as a result of my requests.

 3             MR. HARMON:

 4        Q.   We're going to return to this document in just one minute, but

 5     I'd like -- before, could I have Prosecution Exhibit 2175 on the stand,

 6     and I want English e-court 0630-5913, B/C/S page 23 on the monitor.  Yes,

 7     this is the page.

 8             Sir, on -- you were -- you commented on this in your case in

 9     chief, particularly -- and I'm referring you to sub-part 3, the provision

10     of fuel and other propellants.  And you were asked:

11             "Did you, as the SVK, receive oil and fuel from the VJ?"

12             And this document, which is dated the -- I'll just find the date

13     on this.  This date -- this is the 23rd of September, 1993.  You were

14     asked --

15              JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where do we find that date, Mr. Harmon?

16             MR. HARMON:  We find it, Your Honour -- I've noted it, but let me

17     find the date.  Just bear with me for one minute.

18             Your Honour, the date is found on ET 06 -- 0630-5902 ET.  This

19     was a document -- this portion that I've referred to is a small portion

20     of a large document.  The larger document is entitled:

21             "Topics for discussion of the Chief of the General Staff of the

22     VJ with commanders of the Main Staffs of the Serbian Army of Krajina and

23     Republika Srpska."

24             And in brackets underneath that is a date, the

25     23rd of September, 1993.

Page 13385

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Registrar, I see you tried to give us that

 2     page, but you gave us 5905 instead of 5902 -- oh, okay.  I don't know.

 3             MR. HARMON:  And in the English version, Your Honour, you'll see

 4     it at the top, under the caption --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.

 6             MR. HARMON: -- that's the date --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 8             MR. HARMON: -- of the document.  And the part that I've referred

 9     to which is -- if we could then return to ET -- 0630-5913 ET, that is a

10     sub-part of this larger document.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. HARMON:

13        Q.   Now, sir, you testified in respect of this document.  You were

14     asked the question:

15             "Did you, as the SVK, receive oil and fuel from the VJ?"

16             And your answer at 13191, starting at line 1, you said:

17             "I don't know whether there was anything before this document,

18     but after that for sure nothing else came.  They themselves did not have

19     enough fuel to meet their everyday minimum requirements."

20             MR. HARMON:  Now, if we could turn back to Defence Exhibit 442

21     MFI, I'd like to go to page 26 of the English and the Serbian-language

22     version.

23             Could I have -- there we go.  Thank you very much.

24        Q.   Now, at this meeting on the 8th of November, 1993,

25     President Milosevic says the following:

Page 13386

 1             "The army must be a priority.

 2             "1.000 tonnes of fuel must go to the RSK."

 3             You see that passage, sir, next to the number 14?

 4        A.   Well, yes, I can see that, Mr. Harmon.

 5        Q.   So after the 23rd of September, did you receive this thousand

 6     tonnes of fuel?

 7        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Did you receive -- in addition to that 1.000 tonnes of

 9     fuel, did you receive other allotments of fuel from the Federal Republic

10     of Yugoslavia?

11        A.   While I was in command, certain quantities did arrive but not as

12     much as necessary.  In September, on the 9th of September, at the time of

13     this document, the strategic reserves of the fuel in possession of the

14     Serbian Republic of Krajina army were 27.000 litres, just one tank.  And

15     3 tonnes were assigned to an armoured battalion.  But now you should ask

16     me where that fuel came from in Serbia.

17        Q.   Let me deal with my examination the way I would like to,

18     General Novakovic.  First of all, in September -- you said:

19             "... on the 9th of September, at the time of this

20     document ..." --

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22        Q.   -- this document was the 23rd of September, not the 9th -- okay?

23             Now, address your question, where this fuel came from.  Where did

24     this thousand tonnes of fuel that President Milosevic sent to the RSK,

25     where did that come from?

Page 13387

 1        A.   As far as I know, I was not involved in fuel.  It was the

 2     Ministry of Defence, the prime minister, and my assistant for logistics

 3     who were dealing with fuel.  That fuel was obtained in the following way:

 4     Raw oil from Djeletovci in the eastern part of the Republic of

 5     Serbian Krajina was sent to the refinery in Pancevo, and from there we

 6     received a certain quantity of oil products.  And that's what I know.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 8             MR. HARMON:  Now, could we take a look at Defence Exhibit 441,

 9     please, MFI 441.  And I'd like to go, first of all, to the first page so

10     we can just see the date on this meeting.

11        Q.   This meeting is -- you recall, sir, is a meeting you attended in

12     Belgrade on the 21st of October, 1993.  It was attended by the people who

13     are identified on the first page.  You testified --

14             MR. HARMON:  If we could turn to the next page, please, in both

15     languages.

16        Q.   I just want to show you a portion of this document.  There's a

17     portion to the bottom of your page that says "questions," and I just want

18     you to refresh your recollection with that.

19             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, on this page, it's -- toward the bottom

20     of the page, it says "questions."

21        Q.   And this is the portion of your evidence where you said that two

22     units were transferred from the VRS to the Lika Corps.  You identified

23     General Boric and General Talic as being VRS generals.  And that, in

24     fact, they sent to Eastern Slavonia -- sorry, they sent two units, two

25     battalions, 500 men each, to the SVK.  Do you remember that testimony?

Page 13388

 1        A.   First of all, this confirms that a unit from Eastern Slavonia was

 2     dispatched.  I said that commanders of the 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps,

 3     Generals Boric and Talic, sent one battalion each, up to 500 men, to Lika

 4     for periods of up to one month.

 5        Q.   That's correct.  I thought I had summarised that.  Perhaps I

 6     didn't summarise it accurately.  But you have summarised your previous

 7     testimony accurately.

 8             Now, the question I have, sir:  When the VRS troops came into the

 9     area of responsibility of the SVK, did they continue to wear their VRS

10     insignia?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly switch off unnecessary mikes, please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Harmon.

13             MR. HARMON:

14        Q.   So they were operating in your theatre of operations with VRS

15     uniforms and VRS insignia, indicating that they were from the

16     1st Krajina Corps and the 2nd Krajina Corps of the VRS?

17        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.  I'm sure that not all of them wore insignia.

18     That was the state of their uniforms.  But those who had them wore them.

19        Q.   And was UNPROFOR operating in the area of responsibility where

20     the two battalions from the VRS had come?

21        A.   I do not understand your question.  What do you mean when you say

22     "the area of responsibility."  What is the area of responsibility?

23        Q.   You said that two battalions of VRS soldiers came into the

24     SVK territory.  Was UNPROFOR also operating in the same territory where

25     the VRS units had come?

Page 13389

 1        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell -- explain to me how President Milosevic

 3     could say and order that the VRS send troops to the SVK and that that

 4     order was executed.  Can you explain to me how that took place, how

 5     that's possible?

 6        A.   Mr. Milosevic could not issue an order to that effect.  It was

 7     his suggestion.  And in the minutes, it says for Boric and Talic to

 8     assist them.  If it had been an order, it would have been recorded

 9     differently.  It would have been recorded in this way:  I hereby order

10     that commanders of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Krajina Corps by this date send

11     so many men at such and such time, and those units shall be

12     resubordinated to so and so.  That would have been an order.

13             This is a suggestion.  Mr. Milosevic thought that units from

14     Eastern Slavonia should not be dispatched, given the fact that the

15     1st and 2nd Krajina Corps zones are in contact with the zones where the

16     problems arose.  That was a time when the Medacki Dzep situation arose.

17             Let me remind you, Mr. Harmon, of the fact that Republika Srpska

18     and the Republic of Serbian Krajina were being merged or united at least

19     three times.

20        Q.   Now, the entry says that by 27 October, 1993 - and this is on the

21     third page of this entry - two brigades equal about 3.000 men to be given

22     to the RSK to Lika.  That's the way the entry reads.  And the person who

23     proposed that solution was President Milosevic, and that solution was

24     executed.  Correct?

25        A.   No, Mr. Harmon.  I'm telling you that suggestion was not

Page 13390

 1     implemented.  It was suggested here that 3- to 5.000 men be sent;

 2     however, it didn't amount to even 1.000 men.  And just for a three- to

 3     four-week period that they stayed there.  And those men who, because of

 4     an increase of intensity and tensions after the Medak Dzep incursion,

 5     those men could, after that, be given an opportunity for some R and R to

 6     go home and rest.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. HARMON: [Microphone not activated] Could we --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10             MR. HARMON:  Could we take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 317.

11        Q.   We're going to be taking a look, sir, at your evidence in respect

12     of the Drina Plan.

13             MR. HARMON:  And if we could turn to page 3 of the English in

14     this document.

15        Q.   Now, sir, this was the aide-memoire for the co-ordination of

16     tasks of the VJ General Staff on 17 December 1993, and your attention

17     during your evidence in chief was directed to passages that relate to

18     number 1:

19             "Analysis of the implementation of tasks from the previous

20     co-ordination ..."

21             And then it had:

22             "(a) implemented tasks:  Plans for the use of the troops have

23     been fully developed up to the corps level."

24             And you were asked by Mr. Lukic what had been achieved up to the

25     corps level in terms of the implementation.  And your answer was, and I

Page 13391

 1     quote:

 2             "After a joint war plan had been drafted, we updated our war plan

 3     at the Main Staff level to the extent necessary by the modifications of

 4     the joint war plan and its schedules, meaning the entirety of the joint

 5     war plan.  However, at the corps level and lower, we did not draft the

 6     war plan."

 7             MR. HARMON:  Now, Your Honours, the only cite I have -- I didn't

 8     have the official transcript cite for that answer, but it's the LiveNote

 9     at page 38, lines 11 through 15.

10        Q.   Now, early, sir, we looked at the Defence Exhibit 442 MFI, which

11     was the Mladic diary entry, where general -- President Milosevic

12     suggested, in the presence of numerous political and military leaders,

13     that a war plan be created.

14             Your evidence was -- is to the effect that at a lower level from

15     the corps you didn't develop those war plans.  My question to you, sir,

16     is:  Did you at any time inform the attendees at the meeting of the

17     8th of November, including General Perisic, General Mladic, political

18     leaders, that you had not developed the war plan at the lower echelons,

19     the echelons below the corps level?

20        A.   If that is how my, then, answer is understood - I don't know how

21     it's reflected in English - well then it is partly inaccurate,

22     Mr. Harmon.

23        Q.   Well, I have --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not understand the question,

Page 13392

 1     Mr. Harmon, as asked.  And I listened to it in the Serbian language and

 2     I'm looking at it in the English language.  I would like the witness to

 3     leave the courtroom for a moment, please, to explain.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, Mr. Lukic asks that you excuse us

 5     for a short while.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What Mr. Harmon is referring to is

 9     17th of December, 1993, co-ordination of tasks meeting.  That's the

10     reference.  The meeting was held on the 8th of November, 1993; and the

11     Drina Plan, as we know, pursuant to P215, was drafted on the

12     14th of November I think, which means after this meeting.  So it's

13     unclear to me whether at the 8th of November meeting somebody was

14     informed about something which followed subsequently, which was done

15     later on.  And in this sense I believe that some confusion may be

16     engendered.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

18             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, Defence counsel examined the witness in

19     respect of P317, which is the aide-memoire for this co-ordination

20     meeting, at which time he asked him whether or not the implementation of

21     the war plan had been finished.  Now, the implementation of the war plan

22     was the implementation of a directive by President Milosevic to create a

23     war plan.  This witness testified that they had done so up to a certain

24     level, but below certain echelons they had not because he did not believe

25     that it was going to be -- essentially, he thought it was a futile

Page 13393

 1     exercise.  And therefore, he did not have his lower echelons implement

 2     the plan.

 3             What I have asked this witness is:  Did you inform the people who

 4     attended the meeting on the 8th of November, when President Milosevic

 5     suggested or said that a war plan should be created, that he didn't

 6     follow through?  That's the question I've asked him.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, you're not addressing the issue of dates

 8     that Mr. Lukic is raising.  And -- and -- You see, with all these

 9     documents not before us at the same time, it is very difficult for me

10     also to follow.  I can't just -- I'm not with you just looking at one

11     document.  I would like to see all of them before me and the various

12     dates of each document.

13             MR. HARMON:  I'm just reading, for a moment, Mr. Lukic's

14     intervention.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance.

16             MR. HARMON:  Well, from what I understand Mr. Lukic's

17     intervention to be, is that -- let me outline the dates, Your Honour.

18     The first date that's relevant is the 8th of November; that is the Mladic

19     diary entry where President Milosevic says:  Prepare a war plan.  That's

20     the 8th of November.

21             Now, this document that we have before us is December of 1993.

22     Mr. Lukic took --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, just a second.

24             MR. HARMON:  Yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, you said the document before us.  What is it

Page 13394

 1     called?

 2             MR. HARMON:  This document is called an aide-memoire for the

 3     co-ordination of tasks at the VJ on 17 December 1993, so this is a

 4     document -- and the document itself, then, if we turn to page 3, is dated

 5     the 17th of December.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All right.  And --

 7             MR. HARMON:  Okay?  So what Mr. Lukic -- I understood the

 8     examination of Mr. Lukic when he took the witness to the passage I have

 9     referred to, he asked him whether the plan, the war plans, had been fully

10     developed and had been achieved up to the corps level.  That's the war

11     plan that Milosevic had suggested be prepared on the 8th of November.

12     And the plan in the -- and let me just follow additionally.

13             Following that meeting, in fact, at the end of the diary entry

14     D442, there are entries from General Mladic outlining who on behalf of

15     the VRS was to prepare that directive and that plan.  And we have

16     evidence in the record that General Mladic, in fact, followed through.

17     And there are -- the complete VRS Drina War Plan is in the record.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, D442 -- you said D442.

19             MR. HARMON:  That is the diary entry.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what is the date of that entry?

21             MR. HARMON:  8 of November.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  But the 8 of November, that's when you say

23     Slobodan Milosevic said, Prepare a war plan?

24             MR. HARMON:  Yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  And is it on the same day that Mladic also

Page 13395

 1     follows up with --

 2             MR. HARMON:  And then in that same -- in 442 MFI, you see at the

 3     end of that --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, and I'm saying --

 5             MR. HARMON:  -- entry --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO: -- what is the date of the entry in 442?

 7             MR. HARMON:  Well, the date of the entry that I'm referring to is

 8     the 8th of November, 19 -- that's the -- that's the -- if we can pull it

 9     up, I can -- if we can pull up D442.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for His Honour, please.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see Mr. Lukic is on his feet.  You know, in my

14     tradition, two counsel don't stand up at the same time.  When the one is

15     standing and the other one stands up, the one standing sits down.  So I

16     never know who to go to.

17             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to help and speed things up

19     and resolve this confusion in the most elegant way.  If the question of

20     Mr. Harmon is whether in the period since the creation of the Drina Plan,

21     which was the 14th of November, 1993, until this co-ordination meeting,

22     which is on the 17th of December, 1993, whether Mr. Novakovic -- the fact

23     that that plan was not elaborated further than the Main Staff informed of

24     that -- the participants of the 8th of November meeting, if that was his

25     intention, I fully accept that kind of question, and I believe that the

Page 13396

 1     witness will be able to answer it.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Can I --

 3             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO: -- come up with a solution.  Let's take a break,

 5     and you sort it out.  You'll tell us when we come back.

 6             Court adjourned.  Come back at quarter to 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Has the issue been resolved, Mr. Harmon?

11             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, the question in English was -- what

12     Mr. Novak Lukic says was correct and proper.  The problem existed in the

13     interpretation that he received and that was the source of the confusion.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You may proceed.

15             MR. HARMON:  So just to, kind of, recap where we are, I have --

16     on the monitor, I have D442 MFI and I have the first page.  And this is

17     the meeting of the 8th of November, 1993, and it is the meeting where

18     Milosevic says that a war plan had to be created.  It identifies the

19     participants in that meeting, including General Novakovic.  And the

20     question that I asked General Novakovic related to his testimony where he

21     said:

22             "At the corps level and lower, we did not draft the war plan."

23        Q.   And my question, General Novakovic, was:  Did you inform the

24     participants who were identified, any of those participants, that you had

25     not followed through and drafted the war plan at the lower-echelon

Page 13397

 1     levels?

 2        A.   Mr. Harmon, the war plan of the SVK was -- had been drafted

 3     earlier than that and had existed as such.  However, my statement was

 4     this:  The updating of the war plan in the spirit of the adopted joint

 5     war plan was not done deeper than the Main Staff and corps levels, which

 6     means the planning of the use of corps by the Main Staff in the spirit of

 7     what were the new elements of the joint war plan labelled "Drina."

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, did you tell the participants of

 9     this meeting of the 8th of November, 1993, that you did not prepare the

10     war plan at the corps level and lower?  You can say yes; you can say no.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. HARMON:

14        Q.   Sir, the joint war plan or the Drina Plan was really quite

15     important for the SVK in its survival, wasn't it?

16        A.   Absolutely, yes, Mr. Harmon.

17        Q.   Why was it important, in your opinion?

18        A.   Because pursuant to its provisions, if it were to be implemented,

19     then the VJ and the VRS in a way would be participating in the defence of

20     the RSK.

21        Q.   And if the VJ and the VRS were to be participating in the defence

22     of the RSK, it was important that the lower echelon units, the brigades

23     and other units, have a plan of their own so they knew how to discharge

24     their responsibilities under the plan; correct?

25        A.   That is correct, Mr. Harmon.

Page 13398

 1        Q.   In fact, the lower echelons were instructed to draft a war plan,

 2     Drina, that applied to their own echelon levels, and I'm talking below

 3     the corps level.  That was, in fact, the case; they were given an order

 4     to do so, weren't they?

 5        A.   In accordance with the new war plan, Mr. Harmon, their missions

 6     and tasks remained the same because the next step that was necessary for

 7     the level below the corps level, meaning brigades and lower, to elaborate

 8     the new elements of the plan of use of the SVK was missing, did not

 9     materialise.

10             MR. HARMON:  Could we have XN100 on the monitor.  And I would

11     like B/C/S page 56 to be displayed.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  XN, is that a new document?

13             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is for impeachment purposes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may first see the document on

16     the screen before I voice my opinion.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You need to see it -- do you have a copy?  Okay.

18     Let's wait for the screen.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.  If it's used

20     only for the purposes of impeachment, then I stipulate.  I agree that

21     this document be shown to the witness.

22             MR. HARMON:

23        Q.   Sir, this is a document - take a look at it - it is dated the

24     17th of March, 1995, and it's entitled:

25             "Destruction of the invalidated PU."

Page 13399

 1             Now, what does "PU" stand for, sir?

 2        A.   "Plan of Use" or "Engagement Plan."

 3        Q.   Okay.  And do you see -- at the bottom, do you see a signature?

 4        A.   Commander Lieutenant-Colonel Rade Medic.

 5        Q.   Do you know him?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   He was the commander of the 1st Light Infantry -- or light

 8     brigade of the SVK.  Sir, this is an order, as you can see, and it says:

 9             "Pursuant to the 7th Corps command order ..." it gives a number,

10     "regarding the drafting and coming into force of the new engagement plan,

11     I hereby order:

12             "1.  By means of a commission, execute the destruction of the

13     1st Light Brigade 'Drina' Engagement Plan valid to date, as well as

14     excerpts from the 7th Corps Engagement Plan, invalidated through the

15     drafting of a new PU."

16             Then sub-part 2:

17             "I hereby designate the following persons in the commission for

18     the destruction of documents from the 'Drina' Engagement Plan ..."

19             So it's clear, is it not, General Novakovic, that a -- the

20     1st Light Brigade had a plan, a Drina Engagement Plan, for their own use;

21     correct?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   Now, did they draft the 1st Light Brigade Drina Engagement Plan

24     on their own initiative?

25        A.   No, Mr. Harmon.

Page 13400

 1        Q.   They would have had to -- they would have drafted the

 2     1st Light Brigade Drina Engagement Plan pursuant to an order from a

 3     higher authority; isn't that correct?

 4        A.   Mr. Harmon, when the joint war plan Drina was drafted, we created

 5     the new plan at the level of the Main Staff down to the level of corps.

 6     But as far as brigades are concerned, concerning the 1st Light Brigade,

 7     it be included, what they had before that in terms of missions and tasks,

 8     pursuant to the erstwhile plan of use, without any new elements from the

 9     Drina War Plan, they just copied, pasted it, and labelled it the

10     Drina War Plan.

11             This is what I'm trying to tell you.  And this -- I mean, by the

12     fact that there were no reshuffling of areas of responsibility or

13     issuance of any new tasks and missions to units at brigade and lower

14     levels, which would then have meant a drafting of a new war plan and

15     determining, within the Drina Plan of new missions, new areas of

16     responsibility, et cetera.  And this may be the reason for the confusion

17     about the reasons why this did not happen.  This is just labelling and

18     titling.  The plans of use of all brigades remained the same.  And this

19     is what I'm claiming.

20        Q.   Sir, you earlier testified that there was a war plan for the SVK.

21     You said when there was -- the Drina Plan was a joint war plan.  It

22     involved integrating the forces of the VRS and the VJ into the SVK war

23     plan.  So this was -- the war plan that was in the possession of the

24     1st Light Brigade did not have the use of the VJ and the use of the VRS

25     in it.  Those were new elements that had to be incorporated into the

Page 13401

 1     creation of the Drina Plan; isn't that right?

 2        A.   Mr. Harmon, new elements from the joint war plan, Drina, which

 3     should have been incorporated into the planning of the use of units at

 4     the brigade level, implied providing detailed instructions as to where,

 5     into what zone each of the units would arrive from the Army of Yugoslavia

 6     and the Army of Republika Srpska, either as part of the first echelon of

 7     the Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina or the second echelon.

 8             I here claim that the plan was not further elaborated, either the

 9     level of the Army of Yugoslavia, as far as I know, as well as the Army of

10     the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  The commanders of those units which

11     should have been deployed as per the Drina War Plan, the first necessary

12     step in order to provide a very precise mission to those units and the

13     units of our army, of the Army of Republika Srpska -- Serbian Krajina,

14     that step was never taken by the Army of Yugoslavia.  And that is why now

15     you have a new plan labelled "Drina."  But the missions and tasks are

16     only of the units of the VJ but were not elaborated at the lower level of

17     the VJ.

18             The further step of the elaboration was never carried out, either

19     at the level of the VJ or the level of the Army of Republika

20     Srpska Krajina.  It was never done.  It was never carried out.  If that

21     had been done, then we would now be in a position to say that a new war

22     plan, the new war plan, Drina, was elaborated at all levels.  The

23     Main Staff of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina could not do it

24     on its own.

25        Q.   Okay.  Well, you told us that the Army of the Republika Srpska

Page 13402

 1     Krajina couldn't do it on its own, that's why the Drina Plan was, in

 2     fact, created.  So you could have a plan that integrated the use of

 3     forces of the VRS and the VJ in conjunction with the SVK.  That was what

 4     the Drina Plan was, a joint war plan; correct?

 5        A.   Mr. Harmon, I don't know whether you said it, but it was

 6     interpreted to me that you are asking me about the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska, whereas I can't say anything about that.

 8        Q.   Let me repeat my question because it's apparent you did not

 9     understand my question.  The Drina War Plan was a joint war plan

10     describing the use of three -- of the VRS, the VJ, and the SVK.  That was

11     the Drina War Plan; correct?

12        A.   Correct, Mr. Harmon.

13        Q.   We have a document in front of us that is from the command of the

14     1st Light Brigade, and my question is:  Who, to your knowledge, ordered

15     them to prepare a Drina Plan that related to the 1st Light Brigade?

16             You said in your earlier evidence:

17             "We did not draft a war plan at the corps levels or lower."

18             The command of the 1st Light Brigade apparently had drafted a

19     Drina Engagement Plan that related to the use of their forces.  How did

20     it come about that they drafted a Drina Engagement Plan that related to

21     the 1st Light Brigade?

22        A.   I don't know why we keep on talking at cross-purposes.  The

23     1st Light Brigade did not draft the Drina War Plan.  They just used their

24     former plan of use that they previously had.  They marked it as "Drina"

25     because as of then the entire plan of the use of VRSK was labelled Drina.

Page 13403

 1     And as of then, that document was used in the 1st Light Brigade, and all

 2     the other brigades of the 7th Corps was called Drina.  However, it

 3     contained the same elements as the previous war plan.  And that was not

 4     done for the reasons that I already mentioned in my previous evidence.

 5     If you need me to do so, I will repeat all of them.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, who ordered the 1st Light Brigade

 7     to mark their plan "Drina Plan"?  You say they just marked it

 8     "Drina Plan," but there was no plan -- who ordered them to mark it

 9     "Drina Plan"?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could only have been ordered by

11     the command of the 7th Corps, which was their superior command.  And as

12     for the command of 7th Corps --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just -- you've answered my question.  Thank you.

14             MR. HARMON:

15        Q.   Now, let me direct your attention, on this document,

16     General Novakovic, to the passage above the word "order."  If you could

17     focus your attention on that.  It says:

18             "Pursuant to the 7th Corps command ..." and then it gives

19     numbers, "regarding the drafting and coming into force of the new

20     Engagement Plan."

21             Do you know what the new engagement plan was called?

22        A.   17 March 1995 is the date.  Subsequently, I heard that the name

23     of that war plan was Gvozd, G-v-o-z-d, as far as I know.

24        Q.   Thank you very much.  We'll turn to a different topic.

25             MR. HARMON:  Could I have that last exhibit, Your Honour, entered

Page 13404

 1     into evidence, given an exhibit number.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so entered.  May it please be given an

 3     exhibit number.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon, I'm advised that this exhibit consists

 6     of 90 pages.

 7             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour.  It is the B/C/S page 56.  And let

 8     me just check on the English page.

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, the English page would be ET 0672-6894.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Harmon.

12             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May we please then give that page -- those pages

14     an exhibit number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, the pages indicated will be

16     Exhibit P2921.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. HARMON:

19        Q.   General Novakovic, are you familiar with the Orkan rocket system?

20        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

21        Q.   Can you describe what that system is?

22        A.   It's a rocket system which was used for support in the JNA, as

23     far as I remember, and it was used on one occasion.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  It was manufactured

25     for the Yugoslav People's Army.

Page 13405

 1             MR. HARMON:

 2        Q.   Okay.  And you say it was used on one occasion.  On which --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness said that

 5     it was manufactured for the JNA as just one piece of equipment.  It was a

 6     once-only exercise.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But, you see, even that answer does not

 8     answer the question put to you.  The question put to you was:  Can you

 9     describe what that system is.  Not for whom it was manufactured and how

10     many times.

11             Can you explain what it is and how it operates?  If you can't, "I

12     cannot explain."  If you can, you can tell us.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

14             MR. HARMON:

15        Q.   Let me see --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What does "no" mean?  Do you mean, no, you cannot

17     explain?  You are not able to explain?  My question didn't call for a

18     "no" answer; it called for -- oh, yeah, you cannot explain.  Thank you.

19     Thank you.

20             MR. HARMON:

21        Q.   Let me see if you can affirm what I will be telling you in just a

22     minute, sir.  The Orkan rocket system was -- its primary military use was

23     to target soldiers and armoured vehicles; isn't that correct?

24        A.   I can't confirm that.  I can't say anything about the armoured

25     vehicles because as far as I know armoured vehicles were not targeted by

Page 13406

 1     that.

 2        Q.   I'm talking about its use in warfare.  Its use in warfare was to

 3     target soldiers and armoured vehicles.  Do you agree with that

 4     proposition or disagree with that proposition?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly switch off all unnecessary mikes.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All rocket systems, including

 8     Orkan, are used to destroy targets in the process of attack against

 9     manpower attacking in open spaces or groups of enemy soldiers which are

10     based somewhere stationary or on the move.

11             MR. HARMON:

12        Q.   And the Orkan rocket system was fitted with either a warhead

13     containing bomblets or anti-tank shells; is that correct, if you know?

14        A.   I believe that that's correct.  I believe that it had a warhead

15     and in the warhead it also had cluster bombs.  And when it comes to using

16     Orkan against armoured vehicles or tanks, I don't know whether it was

17     ever used against armoured vehicles or tanks.

18        Q.   Would the Orkan rocket system be a suitable system to fire in

19     populated areas?

20        A.   Mr. Harmon, it is intended for targeting targets in the space in

21     a certain area, in the area where enemy soldiers are deployed, especially

22     when those soldiers are in the process of attacking or while they are in

23     their bases.  As for settled areas, only if such a military base is

24     separate from that settled area, if it is clearly separated from the

25     settled area, or if there is a clear warning and repeated warning to the

Page 13407

 1     civilian population that they should move away from a military target and

 2     seek shelter in a secure area.

 3        Q.   Now, can you -- are you familiar with the LUNA rocket system, and

 4     can you describe what it is and its use?

 5        A.   That's a rocket system with a range of around 65 kilometres which

 6     is used to target significant targets of -- needless to say military

 7     targets within that range of the enemy territory.

 8        Q.   Do you know what its accuracy is?

 9        A.   I believe that its deviation is around 1 kilometre or up to

10     1 kilometre, which is a maximum if you do not have a full set of data

11     available to you.

12        Q.   Would a LUNA rocket be a suitable weapons system to employ

13     against a populated area?

14        A.   Mr. Harmon, there's no single system which should be used in a

15     populated area.  All combat systems are intended to open fire against

16     military targets.  When there is a civilian population in such zones and

17     the civilian populations was not previously alerted that such weapons

18     would be used, then I suppose that any use of such weaponry systems would

19     be inappropriate.

20        Q.   In your evidence in chief, you were critical of the Orkan rocket

21     attacks on Zagreb that occurred on the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1995; can you

22     explain why?

23        A.   I stated that in the statement that I previously provided.  I

24     said also that it was a morally and politically unacceptable action

25     because there was non-selective fire opened on a populated area.  And I

Page 13408

 1     also stated in the statement that you must have, I'm sure, that the only

 2     thing that resulted from that was damages to one's own people that were

 3     then exposed to even more repercussions in a situation when it was

 4     already in the hands of the Croatian army.  And I also said that there

 5     was no justification for such an act.

 6        Q.   While you were commander of the SVK, how many Orkan rocket

 7     systems were at your disposal?

 8        A.   One rocket system, Mr. Harmon.

 9        Q.   Was special authorisation required to use the Orkan rocket

10     system?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   So any artillery commander could fire Orkan rockets at any time

13     he wished?

14        A.   I don't understand a link between the existence of a base and the

15     authority of an artillery commander.  That's the interpretation that I've

16     received, but I can't establish a link between the two terms, I'm afraid.

17        Q.   Okay.  Let me try again.  You had one Orkan rocket system.  Whose

18     authority was required to be given before it could be used?

19        A.   Two cases were required to issue such a permission:  The first

20     case was an order by the Main Staff, when that system was under the

21     command of the Main Staff, which it was.  And the second case was when

22     the rocket system was assigned to a corps command which requested it in

23     view of the shape of the territory.  And the range of that system, it had

24     to be moved from one corps zone to another when necessary.  And in that

25     case, it would have been the corps commander who would have issued an

Page 13409

 1     order for its use.

 2        Q.   And the corps commander did not need the approval of the

 3     Main Staff to fire Orkan rockets?

 4        A.   If it was resubordinated to him, in such a situation the answer

 5     would be no.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And was the Orkan rocket system resubordinated to corps

 7     commanders while you were the commander of the SVK?

 8        A.   In certain situations, the Orkan system was resubordinated to

 9     various corps commanders.

10        Q.   What were those situations?

11        A.   When an all-out Croatian offensive was launched in January 1993

12     in the area of Maslenica, Ravni Kotari, Velebit Mountain, and the

13     Cetina River valley, there came a time when the Orkan system was

14     resubordinated to the commander of the 7th Corps.  This is what I

15     remember very well.  There may have been other such cases, but as I sit

16     here I can't remember, so I can't testify to that with any certainty.

17        Q.   Okay.  In respect of the LUNA rocket system, I ask you the same

18     questions.  First of all:  How many LUNA rocket systems did you have in

19     the SVK while you were the commander?

20        A.   Are you referring to the rocket -- to the Orkan rocket system,

21     or ... ?

22        Q.   No, sir, I asked you about the LUNA rocket system.

23        A.   None, Mr. Harmon.

24        Q.   Are you saying that while you were the commander of the SVK, the

25     SVK did not have any LUNA rockets?

Page 13410

 1        A.   What I'm saying is that we did not have any LUNA rocket system in

 2     the SVK.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, did you ever advocate, General Novakovic, that

 4     rockets be fired against Zagreb if towns in the RSK were attacked?

 5        A.   Rockets fired at Zagreb?  Only at military targets, Mr. Harmon.

 6     And I believe that all that should be put in a context and explained as

 7     part of the context.

 8        Q.   Well, let's take a look at 65 ter 6171.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that a new document?

10             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the --

12             MR. HARMON:  It is for impeachment purposes, Your Honour.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  You may proceed, Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:  I'm waiting for the English version to come on the

16     monitor, Your Honour.  I see it.

17        Q.   Sir, this is a document --

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   -- that is dated the 9th of June, 1993.  It is from the

20     Republika Serbia Krajina Main Staff of the Serbian army.  And it is

21     addressed to Slobodan Milosevic, the president of the Republic of Serbia.

22     And can we turn to the last page of the document.  You see two signatures

23     at the bottom of this document, General Novakovic.  Can you --

24        A.   That's correct, Mr. Harmon.

25        Q.   -- identify those signatures, please.

Page 13411

 1        A.   Yes.  On the left is my signature and on the right is

 2     Mr. Martic's signature.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Could we turn to the second page in English and the

 4     second page in the Serbian language.

 5        Q.   Okay, sir, this --

 6             MR. HARMON:  I'm directing Your Honours' attention and

 7     General Novakovic's attention to the passage in the English version that

 8     starts at the third paragraph.

 9        Q.   And for your benefit, General Novakovic, it reads -- the passage

10     I'm referring to is:

11             "The Croatian Army is numerically and technically superior.  The

12     beginning of an all-out aggression is expected on 11 June 1993, even

13     though 10 or 18 June 1993 are also being mentioned as critical dates.

14             "So far we have undertaken the following measures:"

15             And then if you go down to the portion that is underscored, it

16     says:

17             "We moved P-65 LUNA rockets from the Army Republika Srpska to the

18     area of Banija and Kordun to prevent aggression or carry out possible

19     attacks on Zagreb, should our towns come under attack."

20             You see that, sir?

21        A.   Yes, I can see that absolutely clearly, Mr. Harmon.

22        Q.   Now, in your letter to President Milosevic, you express clearly

23     that should there be an attack on the area, that you would carry out

24     possible attacks on Zagreb should your towns come under attack.  There is

25     no reference in this document to military targets, is there?

Page 13412

 1        A.   Mr. Harmon, kindly -- at least let's not ignore what is stated in

 2     here.  Would you allow me to read everything?  If this is something to

 3     impeach me, let's read what it says here.  Please.  I'm --

 4        Q.   Can you show me where it refers to military targets in this

 5     document?

 6        A.   I cannot show you anywhere, but I can show you where it reads "as

 7     means of a deterrent" and "possible action" and point out the fact that

 8     I'm a co-author of this document, not the sole author, Mr. Prosecutor,

 9     but co-author.

10        Q.   That's fine.  We can see that from the document, that you are a

11     co-author of this document, and you obviously read the document before

12     you signed it.

13        A.   Obviously.  I do claim that I signed it as a co-author of the

14     document.

15        Q.   Now --

16        A.   And you asked me whether in our composition we had LUNA R-65

17     rockets.  No, we did not have them, and this is clearly seen here from

18     this document.  A battalion of LUNA was part of the VRS, and the document

19     clearly states that that battalion was rebased from the Army of

20     Republika Srpska.  I don't know how can you impeach me in terms of my

21     statement that the SVK did not have in possession any LUNA rockets.

22             MR. HARMON:  Could we turn to XN310, please, and this is -- I'm

23     sorry, could this document be admitted into evidence.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

25     please be given an exhibit number.

Page 13413

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2922.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I suppose --

 3             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour, this is -- this next document is

 4     for purposes of impeachment.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not have any objections for that

 7     document to be used for those purposes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. HARMON:

10        Q.   Sir, this is an order.  It's dated the 28th of August, 1993.

11             MR. HARMON:  Could we go to the last page in the -- actually, the

12     second page in the English and I think the last page in the

13     Serbian-language version.

14        Q.   You see a typed name at the end of this order, sir?

15        A.   [No verbal response]

16        Q.   Sir, do you see a typed name at the end of the order?

17        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.  And I do not challenge this.  This is not

18     contentious.

19             MR. HARMON:  Could we turn to the next page in the English

20     version, please.

21        Q.   At the bottom -- not the stamp but at the bottom of the order it

22     indicates to whom -- to which units the order was delivered.  It starts

23     with the 7th and the 15th and the 21st, 39th, 18th, and 11th, and then,

24     in brackets, the 75th Logistics Base and the 105th, and it says "VBR."

25     Are those the units to which this order was delivered?

Page 13414

 1        A.   Yes, these are corps commands, logistics base, and the air

 2     brigade.

 3        Q.   And --

 4        A.   The air brigade.

 5        Q.   Sir, can you tell us what the acronym "VBR" stands for?

 6        A.   Which acronym do you mean, Mr. Harmon?

 7        Q.   At the end of the list of addressees, it says "VBR."

 8        A.   I mentioned a minute ago, the 105 Air Brigade, Air Force Brigade.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. HARMON:  Could we go to the first page in the English and the

11     first page in the Serbian-language version.

12        Q.   Now, under the word "order, I hereby order the following," I'd

13     like to direct your attention on paragraph 1.

14             It reads:

15             "Plan activities against military targets in Sibenik, Sinj,

16     Zadar, Gospic, Ogulin, Karlovac, Sisak, Sunja, Osijek, and Vinkovci."

17             And then it says:

18             "In case of artillery attacks against Knin, plan targeting Zagreb

19     as well."

20             Now, this doesn't say anything about military targets in Zagreb,

21     does it?

22        A.   In item 1, which determines the sense of everything stated here,

23     in the area following the word "I order," Mr. Harmon, it is clearly

24     stated "against military targets."  If civilian targets were meant, then

25     they would have been listed and expressly stated.  What this text

Page 13415

 1     discusses are military targets, action against which is being planned

 2     with artillery weapons which have deviations from metres to couple of

 3     tens of metres.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, we do not have much time, and I'm

 5     sure you'd like to go home.  You've been here for a very long time.  It

 6     would be very helpful if you could please listen carefully to the

 7     question and answer the question only.  Don't divert to other things.

 8             The question to you is simply this, that where Zagreb is

 9     mentioned, there is no mention of targeting military targets in Zagreb.

10             Can you see the third line of that paragraph?  Not the first

11     line.  Now you're referring us to the first line when the question is

12     about the third line.

13             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  "In case of artillery attacks against Knin, plan

15     targeting Zagreb as well."

16             Not:  "Military targets in Zagreb."

17             That's the question that is put to you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, it is correct that not

19     only for Zagreb but also for no of the towns and areas listed here where

20     action by artillery is planned for, it doesn't state what types of

21     targets is enumerated because that is made reference to in the first line

22     of that paragraph.  I don't know why we're singling out Zagreb here.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We're singling out Zagreb, Mr. Novakovic, because

24     for Sibenik, Sinj, Zadar, Gospic, Ogulin, Karlovac, Sisak, Sunja, Osijek,

25     and Vinkovci, you say they must target military targets; but you don't

Page 13416

 1     say they must target military targets when you come to Zagreb.  That's

 2     the distinction.

 3             And the question that is being put to you is:  Why do you have

 4     not -- why have you not targeted military targets with respect to Zagreb?

 5             It's a very simple question.  I don't know what the problem is.

 6             Yes, Mr. Lukic, you ...

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to point out a

 8     discrepancy in the English translation of this sentence with the original

 9     because in the original after the word "Vinkovci" there is a comma.  And

10     "in the case of artillery attacks against Knin, plan targeting Zagreb."

11     In the English version, those are two separate sentences.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stick by my explanation.  It is

13     stated above:  "Military targets."  And everything that is referred to

14     below that means military targets in all those areas, including Zagreb.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.

16             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

17             MR. HARMON:

18        Q.   In that same first entry, sir, let me direct your attention to

19     the following passage.  It says:

20             "The commanders of the 39th Corps and the 21st Corps should be

21     ready for targeting Zagreb with R-65, surface -- R-65, as well as for

22     reception of Orkan multiple rocket-launchers."

23             Now, the R-65 system is the LUNA rocket system, isn't it?

24        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.  And these are areas from which it was possible

25     to target military targets in the area of Zagreb.

Page 13417

 1        Q.   And whose R-65 LUNA rockets were to be deployed by the 39th Corps

 2     and the 21st Corps on the 28th of August, 1993?

 3        A.   I mentioned already once that those were the rocket systems from

 4     the VRS, Army of Republika Srpska.

 5        Q.   And how many -- how long did you essentially have on loan the

 6     R-65 LUNA rocket system?

 7             Let me repeat the question because you look confused, sir.

 8             How long did you have on loan from the VRS the R-65 LUNA rocket

 9     systems?  Did you have them for a month?  Did you have them for a week?

10     Did you have them for a year?  Did you have them for the entire time you

11     were the commander of the SVK?

12        A.   In events when our estimates were that threat is increased on the

13     basis of intelligence available to us, we requested that certain weaponry

14     or a battalion of such rockets were brought to the territory of the

15     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Such periods could have lasted for ten

16     days, 15 days.  I don't believe that there ever was a full month.

17        Q.   So it's fair to say, isn't it, while you assert that the SVK did

18     not have any LUNA rocket systems of their own, they had at their disposal

19     LUNA rocket systems from the VRS?

20        A.   The procedure was as follows:  When our estimate was that --

21        Q.   Sir, can you just answer my question.  My question was this - I'm

22     not interested in the procedure.  You assert that there were no

23     LUNA rocket systems in the SVK that you owned.

24             My question was:  You had them at their -- at your disposal from

25     the VRS; correct?

Page 13418

 1        A.   No, Mr. Harmon.  We had them at our disposal temporarily from

 2     time to time, whenever they responded positively to our requests.

 3        Q.   Okay.  That's the answer.  Thank you very much, sir.

 4             Now, let me -- in September of 1993, did you launch rocket

 5     attacks against Jastrebarsko and other cities?

 6        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 7        Q.   Did you use Orkan rockets against those targets in

 8     September of 1993?

 9        A.   To the best of my recollection, Orkan rockets were used against

10     some of the targets there.

11        Q.   Did you use Orkan rockets against Samobor in September of 1993?

12        A.   No, Mr. Harmon.  Those rockets were used to target barracks

13     housing the communications unit of the Main Staff of the Croatian army.

14     As far as I can remember, Orkan rockets were used against that target.

15        Q.   And were those -- was that target in the town of Samobor?

16        A.   That target was next to the town of Samobor, and the population

17     had been publicly warned about those -- that target being targeted for

18     several days prior to the attack over our public media.

19        Q.   Can you tell us, if you can recall, how many Orkan rockets were

20     fired against the town of Samobor?

21        A.   None at the town of Samobor, Mr. Harmon, but at the base of the

22     communications for the Main Staff of the Croatian army.  And I can't

23     recall how many missiles were used.

24        Q.   Okay.  In November of 1993, did you fire Orkan rockets and

25     LUNA rockets at Jastrebarsko and Samobor again?

Page 13419

 1        A.   In November 1993, if I understood your question correctly?

 2        Q.   Yes, sir.

 3        A.   I can't recall that, Mr. Harmon.

 4             MR. HARMON:  Could we look at XN403, please.

 5             Your Honour, I've been reminded to please request XN310 be given

 6     a number -- an exhibit number, if it could be given one.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 8     number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2923, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And XN403, for what purpose?

11             MR. HARMON:  Impeachment, Your Honour.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. HARMON: [Microphone not activated]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. HARMON:  Could I have page 1 of the English, please.

17     Thank you.

18        Q.   Sir, this is a newspaper article from "Vjesnik" dated the

19     13th of November, 1993.  Where is the newspaper "Vjesnik" located, in

20     which country?

21        A.   In Zagreb, in Croatia.

22        Q.   Okay.  And this article is entitled:

23             "Serbian War Criminals are Stepping Up Their Attacks Against

24     Croatian Towns."

25             And then it says:

Page 13420

 1             "'Orkan' and 'LUNA' missiles fired from territory under

 2     UN protection."

 3             And I want to direct your attention, sir, to B/C/S, the first

 4     page, in particular, sir, in the left-hand column, the first two

 5     paragraphs.

 6             MR. HARMON:  And, Your Honours, it is under the location Zagreb

 7     and then the first two paragraphs I direct Your Honours' attention to.

 8        Q.   And what this article reports, General Novakovic, is that, in the

 9     first paragraph:

10             "... around 8.00 a.m., four 'Orkan' rocket missiles hit the

11     Samobor region.  No one was killed, but three persons were wounded."

12             And then it says, in the next paragraph:

13             "Three 'Orkan' missiles fell ... simultaneously on the area of

14     Jastrebarsko.  Several persons were injured and several houses were

15     damaged.  A state of emergency was declared for the area of Jastrebarsko.

16     Explosives experts removed the scattered 'bomblets,' and the citizens

17     have been warned not to touch these objects."

18             Does this newspaper article, sir, refresh your recollection as to

19     whether Orkan rockets were fired in the Samobor region and at

20     Jastrebarsko in November of 1993?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to scroll up the B/C/S

23     document because of the date.  I don't want to suggest anything.

24     Mr. Harmon is asking questions with reference to November.  Could the

25     witness state which date the newspaper bears?

Page 13421

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This I did not write.  This is not

 2     what I invented.  This would be Zagreb, Monday, 30th --

 3     13th of September, 1993.  This is the date on the front page.

 4             MR. HARMON:

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that correction.  The English translation I

 6     have is an error, Your Honour.  I've been operating off the English

 7     translation since I do not read Cyrillic.

 8             And let me ask you, sir, having been -- seeing the correct date

 9     of September, does this refresh your recollection as to whether Orkan

10     rockets were fired at those two locations?

11        A.   Mr. Harmon, Orkan rockets were not used in action against those

12     two towns.  They were used against the bases of the Croatian army, as

13     I've already stated.

14        Q.   And where were those bases?  Tell me where the bases of those

15     armies were located, General Novakovic.

16        A.   You asked me about Samobor.  Quite next to Samobor there was a

17     barracks, and I know for sure that it is located outside the settled

18     area.  The barracks near Jastrebarsko is located north of the town of

19     Jastrebarsko.  Sisak was on the very front line, Mr. Harmon.  In Sisak,

20     Croatian forces were located there and our forces were located on the

21     outskirts, in the suburbs of Sisak.  Just as it was the case in Gospic,

22     Kutina, Ivanic-Grad -- well, Kutina and Ivanic-Grad were maybe 10 to

23     15 kilometres from the front line.  And Gospic was next to the front

24     line.  Pirovac -- well, I think it's in Dalmatia; I don't know where it

25     is.

Page 13422

 1             This was done around the time of the Medak Pocket, while the

 2     Croatian forces massacred the civilian population in the Medak Pocket,

 3     where we repeated for days what civilian targets we are going to target

 4     over the media.

 5             I would like you to trust me, Mr. Harmon.  You don't have to.

 6     Most of the targets that we threatened to target were in Zagreb, but none

 7     of those missiles from no weapons systems were fired against Zagreb.

 8     This was a certain dose of threat with previous announcement being made

 9     to the civilians.  And I repeat:  No missiles were fired at Zagreb.

10             MR. HARMON:  Can we turn, in this same exhibit, then, to

11     B/C/S page 2 and English page 3.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will have to mark it for identification pending

13     the correction of the date.

14             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour -- no, I'm -- Your Honour, I'm

15     asking if we could just turn to a different page.  I'm not asking for its

16     admission yet.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, I beg your pardon.

18             MR. HARMON:  The English page is page 3 and the B/C/S page is

19     page 2.  Or if -- the English page would be ET 0424-9858.

20        Q.   And, sir, I'm directing your attention to the column on the left

21     of this document.  It looks like it's fairly small.

22             MR. HARMON:  To -- no, below that, please.  Could you go a little

23     bit lower than that, please.  Yes, Thank you.  Keep going, scrolling

24     down.  That's fine.  Thank you.

25             And, Your Honours, I'm directing Your Honours' attention to the

Page 13423

 1     first para -- the first portion under "Galbraith in Karlovac and Lucko."

 2        Q.   And, sir, this article refers to a visit to the -- in the

 3     Zagreb -- I'm sorry, in the Lucko settlement near Zagreb where

 4     ambassador -- US Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith visited.  And I'm

 5     going to quote this.  And he says -- and he spoke with the local

 6     population:

 7             "As a consequence of these attacks, many houses have been

 8     destroyed and 12 people have been wounded.  The American ambassador

 9     noted" -- noted, "... he described the 'rocket attack on Zagreb' as an

10     'obvious act of terror.'  No military goals can be accomplished by

11     launching attacks on areas inhabited by civilians.  The ambassador

12     expressed his sympathy with the victims of both attacks."

13             Your comments, please.

14        A.   I cannot comment, Mr. Harmon, because this is a newspaper article

15     from a newspaper in war which engaged in war propaganda against the other

16     side.  How many people suffered injuries?  Well, what I only can say is

17     that I received information from UNPROFOR officers that the rockets aimed

18     at barracks of special police in the Lucko Garrison, which is located at

19     the airport - and airport, of course, presumes that there are no major

20     settlements around it - that there were no casualties or victims there;

21     that a crater was created when -- where the missile impacted and

22     exploded.

23             What the propaganda was derived from that, that's another

24     question in terms of what the journalists wrote.  You can read plenty

25     other things if you were to scroll up.

Page 13424

 1             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I note the time.  And I will seek the

 2     admission of this document after we take a break, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at half past

 4     12.00.  Court adjourned.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 9             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, two matters:  The first matter is I

10     would move for admission of XN403, ask that it be given an exhibit

11     number.  Because I need to then address the next exhibit.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  The document is admitted into evidence.

13     May it please be given an exhibit number.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And it will be marked for identification pending

16     the correction of the date.

17             MR. HARMON:  That's --

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P2924.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, the reason I asked the witness to step

21     out because I think we're going to have a brief discussion on the next

22     exhibit which I would like to introduce for both -- possibly impeachment

23     but also for the truth of the matter.  It is XN343.  I can explain what

24     it is, Your Honour.

25             It is a Croatian judgement against General Novakovic.  It's a

Page 13425

 1     judgement where he was convicted in absentia for war crime against the

 2     civilian population, the use of prohibited combat equipment, and

 3     destroying cultural and historical monuments.  He was sentenced to

 4     20 years' imprisonment.

 5             I'm not seeking to introduce the document for the truth of the

 6     contents of it, only for the truth that there is a judgement against him

 7     for the three crimes that I have described and that he has been sentenced

 8     to a term of imprisonment of 20 years.

 9             There is a description in here that found him guilty of certain

10     specific attacks.  I intend to put to the witness those elements, but I'm

11     not introducing the document for the truth of those matters, if I make

12     myself clear.  It's a fairly long judgement.  It describes specific

13     incidents.  I'm not introducing this document -- attempting to introduce

14     this document for that.

15             I can tell you, Your Honour, about the background of this

16     document, when we received it, and the like.  We disclosed it to the

17     Defence on the 23rd of June, 2010, by CD.  We received it on the

18     25th of July, 2001.  We had no reason to disclose it earlier because

19     General Novakovic was not on our witness list, he was only on the Defence

20     witness list.  And therefore we only disclosed it on the

21     23rd of June, 2010, when we -- it was confirmed that he would in fact,

22     you know, be coming to testify before this Tribunal.

23             I think it is in the interest of justice that the Court be aware

24     there is a judgement against General Novakovic in Zagreb as a result of a

25     trial in absentia and the nature of those charges.

Page 13426

 1             Those are my submissions, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am against the introduction of this

 4     decision into evidence.  In this judgement, the reference is made to some

 5     things which are beyond the description of what is the -- part of the

 6     jurisprudence of this Tribunal.  Certain crimes are described, or rather,

 7     facts in connection with those crimes, and the judgement was passed in

 8     absentia.

 9             It is true that we were disclosed by the -- this document by the

10     Prosecution.  I believe that this is an attempt on the part of Mr. Harmon

11     to introduce something through the backdoor which has to do something

12     with the indictment because Mile Novakovic is one of the persons listed

13     in the indictment against General Perisic, and within that context the

14     Prosecution should have expressed interest in a document of this nature

15     even earlier and not only when it found -- was found on the list of the

16     Defence witnesses.

17             I don't object to Mr. Harmon asking the witness whether he knows

18     that he had been tried and sentenced in Croatia in absentia and what was

19     the case against him, but I object to the document being introduced

20     because it goes beyond the purpose of impeaching the witness.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any reply?

22             MR. HARMON:  I have no reply, Your Honour.  I made my submissions

23     and I stand by them.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You see, Mr. Harmon, in your first submissions you

25     made two contradictory statements, and I would like to get clarity.  You

Page 13427

 1     first started by saying you are introducing the document for both

 2     impeachment and possibly -- also for the truth of it.  And later you said

 3     not for the truth of it but just for the -- to prove that there's a

 4     judgement that exists.  Now, I'm not quite sure what your purpose is.

 5             MR. HARMON:  I obviously did not make myself very clear.  I

 6     apologise, Your Honour.

 7             I don't know if this witness is going to admit that he has been

 8     convicted in Croatia for certain crimes or not.  So in terms of

 9     impeachment, I'm somewhat waiting to hear his answer on that.  So I may

10     be introducing it for purposes of impeachment.  Nevertheless, I am

11     seeking its admission for the truth that there exists in Croatia a

12     judgement against him for three crimes and a sentence of 20 years.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted) so I anticipate that he may or may not

16     know of the existence of this.  It might be my belief that he probably

17     does.  But -- so that's the first issue.

18             The second issue, Your Honour, is, there is described in this

19     judgement lots of facts about an incident on such and such a day, such

20     and such happened on this day, it describes what happened, and it also

21     describes - I'm interested in particular - in this document on the

22     charges dealing with the Orkan rocket attacks.  I'm not interested in the

23     incidents that deal with the artillery attacks on certain locations on

24     certain dates.  I'm not seeking its admission --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, my attention has been brought to a fact

Page 13428

 1     that previously when we discussed these kind of things we were in private

 2     session.

 3             Do the parties want to go into private session?

 4             MR. HARMON:  If that's what the practice has been.  I'm not aware

 5     of that practice, Your Honour, in terms of ...

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             MR. HARMON:  Fine.  Then I apologise, Your Honour.  That's not my

10     intention to divulge such a --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My problem, Mr. Harmon, is you keep saying you

12     want to introduce it to prove that there is a judgement against the

13     accused -- against the witness, and then you also want to refer to the

14     facts.  You see, if it is just to prove that there is a judgement against

15     him, then you are a little premature.  You can always rise with it if he

16     denies the existence of a judgement, number one.  Number two:  If it does

17     go in for that purpose and that purpose only, then we don't even need to

18     read it, we don't even need to know what is in there.  Those are findings

19     of a court; it's not evidence.  And we just say, There is this document

20     which says you have been convicted and you have been sentenced to

21     20 years for certain crimes.  That's all.

22             Now, I can understand the concern that has been raised by

23     Mr. Lukic because if you -- if it comes in and it is -- we are expected

24     to read it, then we are going to get a whole lot of other things that you

25     do not purport to prove.

Page 13429

 1             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I am not interested in polluting the

 2     record, taking advantage of a document that has facts that are not -- I'm

 3     not asserting here.  I'm going to ask the witness about the facts in the

 4     attacks for which he has been convicted; that's my intention.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.

 6             MR. HARMON:  I will get his answers.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  And if he admits them, there's no need for

 8     you to tender the document.

 9             MR. HARMON:  That is true.  I suspect he won't admit it.  I'm

10     just anticipating.  But we may be able to resolve this in a slightly

11     different way.  I mean, it may well be that Mr. Lukic and I can prepare a

12     stipulation that could be accepted by the Court; the stipulation being

13     that there is a judgement of conviction against General Novakovic and it

14     was as a result of a trial in absentia and he was convicted of the crimes

15     that I described and he was sentenced to 20 years.  I'm perfectly

16     satisfied to do that -- have that solution adopted as well.  But that

17     depends on Mr. Lukic and whether he's willing to enter into such a

18     stipulation.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I cannot say yes to that for a simple

21     reason.  This judgement was passed in absentia.  And you know what the

22     standards are of a trial in absentia and what is the essence of facts

23     adjudicated in that way.  I would have to discuss it with Mr. Harmon and

24     see what the wording of that stipulation would be.  I can accept that

25     there is a judgement passed in the Republic of Croatia by which certain

Page 13430

 1     persons were convicted in absentia, among them is Mr. Novakovic, who was

 2     sentenced to a term of 20 years, if that is enough at the moment by way

 3     of answering Mr. Harmon's proposal.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think what we should then do is call the witness

 5     in and you put the questions to him.  And if he denies, then you can sort

 6     out what the content of the stipulation shall be.

 7             MR. HARMON:  That's satisfactory.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             May the witness please come in.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             MR. HARMON:  Just for the record, Your Honour, are we in open

12     session?  I just want to confirm that we are in open session.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are in open session.

14             MR. HARMON:  That's what I thought.  Okay.  Thank you very much.

15        Q.   General Novakovic, are you aware that you were convicted in

16     Croatia for a war crime committed against the civilian population for the

17     use of prohibited combat equipment and for destroying cultural and

18     historical monuments and that that trial was in absentia?

19        A.   I do have information of that kind, although I'm not aware of any

20     details.

21        Q.   And when you say you're not aware of any details, are you aware

22     of the fact that the conviction, the judgement against you in Croatia is

23     for committing a war crime against the civilian population for the use of

24     prohibited combat equipment and for destroying cultural and historical

25     monuments?

Page 13431

 1        A.   I heard of a conviction of that kind.  Mr. Harmon, in the war I

 2     heard of at least three such convictions, so I really don't know what

 3     exactly are you referring to at this moment.

 4        Q.   What I'm referring to at this moment is the existence of a

 5     judgement in Croatia against you for those -- for having committed those

 6     three crimes.

 7        A.   Up to February 1993, Mr. Harmon, Croatian media published at

 8     least three times, usually on the eve of some negotiations, that I had

 9     been sentenced to a 20-year term in prison as a Serbian terrorist, and it

10     happened at least three times.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.

12             Now, did you, sir, on the 28th of February, 1993, attack the

13     Croatian towns of Vodice and Zaton with Orkan rockets?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before the witness answers, could

16     you, Your Honours, warn him about the rights not to incriminate himself

17     by answering this question and similar ones.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, you have the right not to answer

19     questions that will incriminate you in any proceedings that may or may be

20     instituted against you.  And I know that you came here as a witness, you

21     don't have a lawyer with you, but you are also entitled, should you need

22     legal assistance in how to deal with these questions, you are entitled to

23     consult one and get advice from him or her on how to deal with the

24     questions.  Would you like to have a lawyer to assist you?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no reason for that,

Page 13432

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  If you don't need a lawyer, just be aware,

 3     then, that you have been warned.  And when you answer any questions, you

 4     have the right not to incriminate yourself.  And we hope that you will be

 5     able to identify the questions that you think might incriminate you and

 6     where you want to react differently.  Okay?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             Let me just remind you what Mr. Harmon told you a little earlier

10     this morning.  When you nod your head, it doesn't get typed in.  So we --

11     that's why I look at you.  Even when you nod your head, we still want you

12     to say something so that the stenographer can type it for us.  Okay?

13             Yes, Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Harmon.

14             MR. HARMON:

15        Q.   Let me repeat my question, General Novakovic.  Did you or your

16     forces, on the 28th of February, 1993, attack the Croatian towns of

17     Vodice and Zaton with Orkan rockets?

18        A.   Mr. Harmon, I didn't order any such thing.  That's the truth.

19     Whether such attacks happened or not, I'm not in a position to know

20     because I never dealt with an issue of that particular date and who did

21     what on that particular date, who attacked whom.

22        Q.   Did your forces attack Sibenik on the 2nd of March, 1993, with

23     Orkan rockets?

24        A.   Mr. Harmon, I can't confirm that for any of those dates.  When

25     you put it to me like that, whatever I answered would be pure speculation

Page 13433

 1     on my part.

 2        Q.   I'm going to put a series of questions and -- relating -- the

 3     same type of question with a series of dates and locations, and I just

 4     ask you to answer those questions.

 5             Sir, on the 11th of March, 1993, did your forces attack Sibenik

 6     with Orkan rockets?

 7        A.   I don't know.  As I sit here, I can't answer your question,

 8     Mr. Harmon.

 9        Q.   On the 22nd of March, 1993, did your forces attack Sibenik with

10     Orkan rockets?

11        A.   I don't know, Mr. Harmon.

12        Q.   On the 23rd of March, 1993, did your forces attack Sibenik with

13     Orkan rockets?

14        A.   For the same reason, I can't answer any questions about any dates

15     17 or 18 years ago, and that includes this particular date as well.

16        Q.   I have one more date for you, General Novakovic, it's the

17     14th of April, 1993, did your forces attack Sibenik with Orkan rockets?

18        A.   I don't know that either, Mr. Harmon.

19        Q.   Do you recall, while you were commander of the SVK, ever giving

20     an order to your forces to attack Sibenik with Orkan rockets?

21        A.   No, Mr. Harmon.

22        Q.   That's -- the way I framed this isn't -- doesn't go for -- get me

23     a precise answer.  You don't recall doing it -- did you in fact, while

24     you were commander of the SVK, order your forces to attack Sibenik with

25     Orkan rockets?

Page 13434

 1        A.   I didn't issue any such orders.  If I had, I'm sure that I would

 2     have remembered.

 3        Q.   Did you -- again, while you were the commander of the SVK, did

 4     you give any orders to your forces to attack Sibenik with LUNA rockets?

 5        A.   LUNA rockets?  Never.

 6        Q.   Yes, sir.  Did you, while you were the commander of the SVK, give

 7     your forces any order, any orders whatsoever, to attack Sibenik?

 8        A.   Perhaps I issued an order to launch attacks against military

 9     targets in the general area of Sibenik.  That is something I can't rule

10     out.

11        Q.   What were the military targets in Sibenik while you were the

12     commander of the SVK?

13        A.   Mr. Harmon, the Sibenik harbour, the Zadar harbour, Sapurine were

14     places where the Croatian army forces were brought in to be deployed in

15     that area.  They were brought in from the depth of Croatia and from

16     Herzegovina.  Our scouts observed that process.  Moreover, in the general

17     area of Sibenik, Biograd [Realtime translation read in error "Beograd"],

18     and in that part there - and we're talking about settlements right behind

19     the front line - there were artillery batteries there operated by the

20     Croatian army.  There were also command posts which could also make

21     perfect military targets.  And if such a military target was detected, he

22     was attacked by the most appropriate artillery means.

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Who is "he"?  Mr. Novakovic, you are interpreted

25     as having said:

Page 13435

 1             "... if such a military target was detected, he was attacked by

 2     the most appropriate artillery means."

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter corrects herself:  It was attacked.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to avoid confusion and for the

 7     record, page 67, line 6, there is a reference to Beograd, and I believe

 8     the witness actually wanted to refer to another city, just to avoid

 9     confusion and to make the record clear.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, when you said:

11             "Our scouts observed that process.  Moreover, in the general area

12     of Sibenik ..." and which town?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Biograd.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you happy, Mr. Lukic?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  B-i.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  B-i?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  B-i-o-g-r-a-d?  Okay.  Biograd.  Thank you.

19             MR. HARMON:

20        Q.   In January of 1993 in -- when the Croat offensive was launched in

21     the area of Maslenica, Ravni Kotari, in the Velebit Mountain and in the

22     Cetina River valley, did you use Orkan rockets as a response to that

23     military offensive?

24        A.   Mr. Harmon, the Orkan rockets that you insist upon and other

25     means that were at our disposal were not used as a response or

Page 13436

 1     retaliation; they were used to target military targets, which means

 2     forces on the front line were targeted, forces being brought in were

 3     targeted, artillery positions were targeted.  That is the truth.

 4        Q.   So I take it the answer to my question is -- actually, let me ask

 5     you.  Is the -- what is the answer to my question?

 6             My question was:  In January of 1993 when there was a Croatian

 7     offensive launched in the areas I identified, did you use Orkan rockets

 8     as a response to that military offensive?

 9        A.   The Orkan rocket system was resubordinated to the command of the

10     7th Corps, and the command of the 7th Corps which defended that area

11     probably used it to target targets that they detected and which they

12     thought should be targeted with that weaponry.  And that would be my

13     answer to your question.

14        Q.   Were you ever informed of what targets they used the Orkan rocket

15     system against?

16        A.   I don't know whether this was part and parcel of regular combat

17     reports that corps commanders submitted to the Main Staff.  I can't

18     remember now.  The reports did not contain information on what weaponry

19     was used to -- against which targets.  It was a summary report on what

20     kind of activities and combat operations were conducted along which axes.

21        Q.   In the RSK, while you were commander, was there the -- a

22     manufacturing capacity to make Orkan rockets that were necessary for that

23     Orkan rocket system?

24        A.   As far as the manufacturing capacity to manufacture any kinds of

25     munitions, that's something we did not have.

Page 13437

 1        Q.   What was your source of supply for the Orkan rockets?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think, Mr. Harmon, in fairness to the witness,

 3     he testified before the break that they had one Orkan rocket-launcher,

 4     which was a once-off manufactured by the JNA, if I remember his testimony

 5     well.

 6             MR. HARMON:  I remember that as well, Your Honour.  But my

 7     question really was:  What was the source of the rockets that were used

 8     in that, we can say, borrowed system from the VRS?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  From the JNA -- the rocket -- I beg your pardon.

10     Oh, I beg your pardon.  I beg your pardon.  I'm thinking of the -- yeah,

11     you're talking about the Orkan rocket?

12             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  The LUNA rockets came from the VRS.  The

14     rocket -- the Orkan rocket came from the JNA, and it was only one.

15             MR. HARMON:  Fine.  Well, then -- okay --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  According to his earlier testimony.

17             MR. HARMON:  Thank you for correcting me, Your Honour.  You're

18     absolutely right.  I was confused.

19        Q.   Sir, for your one Orkan rocket launching system, what was your

20     source of supply for those rockets?

21        A.   Mr. Harmon, we had a certain number of those rockets.  And since

22     that weapon was manufactured in the town of Travnik in Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina, which was not under Serb control at the time, some of those

24     rockets were in Republika Srpska.  And I believe that a number of such

25     rockets were in the VJ.  I cannot be specific in terms of what I

Page 13438

 1     remember, rather, about that.

 2        Q.   Following the offensive in -- Croatian offensive in January 1993,

 3     your supply, supply of Orkan rockets that were available to you, had been

 4     exhausted, hadn't they?

 5        A.   Well, the bulk of those munitions were -- was spent, but rockets

 6     for the Orkan rocket system were not spent in great quantities.  They

 7     were used to target what the commanders deemed as the most important

 8     targets - for instance, a large unit being brought in and a dangerous

 9     artillery position - in the view of the commander of the day, and that

10     was the commander of the 7th Corps.

11             Do you allow me a question, Mr. Harmon, for you?

12        Q.   Well, let me -- I want to ask the questions, sir.

13             MR. HARMON:  Let me have XN309 on the monitor, please, and it's

14     for purposes of impeachment.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just take a look before I

17     speak.  I do not object to this document being used for impeachment.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. HARMON:

20        Q.   Sir, please examine the document that's in front of you.  This is

21     a document that is from the Republic of Serbian Krajina, General Staff of

22     the Serbian army, and it's a request for ammunition supply to the

23     General Staff of the VJ.  The date on your copy and on my original copy

24     is illegible, but there is a reference point in the text which gives us

25     some guidance as to when this request was made.  It -- this document says

Page 13439

 1     that:

 2             "You are familiar with the fact that we are in possession of the

 3     artillery rocket system 'Orkan' which is used in the entire area of the

 4     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Given that the armed forces of the

 5     Republic of Croatia launched an attack against the territory of the

 6     Republic of Serbian Krajina on 22nd January, 1993, we were forced to

 7     bring this artillery rocket system into action.  Such a system is

 8     invaluable -- of invaluable importance to us, and it helped in many ways

 9     to stable the situation at the front line.  The 262-millimetre rockets

10     'Orkan' which we had in stock have been used up so that we only have a

11     minimum number left at our disposal, which makes any further artillery

12     fire on our part in view of the expected spreading of the fighting

13     impossible.

14             "Given that we are in such a situation, we turn to you with a

15     request to deliver to us approximately 200 rockets with fuses."

16             So do you recall this request to the VJ General Staff that you

17     issued, General Novakovic?

18        A.   I don't recall specifically, but I'm not saying that I did not

19     send it.

20        Q.   And, in fact, following the offensive operations of the Croatian

21     army that were launched against you -- in fact, you didn't have many

22     Orkan rockets left, and you had to turn to available sources in the VJ to

23     replenish your depleted stocks; isn't that correct?

24        A.   I did not understand the last sentence.

25        Q.   Let me repeat the question, General Novakovic.  I said:

Page 13440

 1     Following the offensive operations that the Croatian army launched

 2     against you in January of 1993, you did not have many Orkan rockets left,

 3     and you had to turn to available sources, that is, the VJ, to replenish

 4     your depleted stocks of Orkan rockets; isn't that correct?

 5        A.   I allow for it being possible the same way that we addressed the

 6     Main Staff of the VRS in order for us to create stockpiles, because at

 7     the time those offensive operations continued.  We didn't want to fall

 8     below a certain minimum of stocks.

 9        Q.   Now, assist me, General Novakovic.  During the time you were

10     commander of the SVK, you had -- you've testified you had one Orkan

11     rocket system in the SVK.  Following your departure as commander of the

12     SVK until the end of the war, did you acquire any additional Orkan rocket

13     systems, or did you only have one Orkan rocket system throughout the war?

14     In other words -- actually, let me strike that question.

15             Throughout the war -- strike that.

16             After you were the commander of the SVK, General Novakovic, did

17     the SVK acquire an Orkan rocket system, or did it continue to rely on the

18     VRS to lend you such systems?

19        A.   The Orkan system was --

20        Q.   I'm sorry, General Novakovic, let me interrupt you.  I made a

21     mistake, okay, and I want to correct that.

22             Between the time you ended your period as commander of the SVK

23     until the end of the war, how many Orkan rocket systems were available to

24     you, the SVK?

25        A.   After no longer being commander of the SVK, none of such were

Page 13441

 1     available to me.  And the SVK had available just one system, as before

 2     that.

 3        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             MR. HARMON:

 6        Q.   Sorry.  Thank you, General Novakovic.

 7             MR. HARMON:  Could I have this document marked as an exhibit.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 9     please be given an exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2925.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. HARMON:

13        Q.   General, I want to turn our attention to Operation Pauk, which

14     you testified about.  You seem to be shaking your head, General.  Is

15     there a problem?

16        A.   I have a major problem, Mr. Harmon.  You expressed a compromising

17     fact: that I have been convicted in Croatia for very grave offences.

18     What -- let the Court check whether this is discrediting against me or

19     discrediting to somebody else.  Let me lay out the facts.

20             And I would like to ask the Presiding Judge to allow me to do the

21     following because I see it very important, and it goes to the credibility

22     of me as a witness and as a human being.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. Novakovic.  Be brief, please.

24     Don't be too long.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the judgement is

Page 13442

 1     concerned, Your Honours, on the 23rd of September, 2003, I found out

 2     about that judgement in the following way:  A person called like me was

 3     arrested in Macedonia on the basis of that judgement, bearing the same

 4     name and surname as I bear it.  After that, Croatian media obtained a

 5     statement of the Judge Mile Bilic, who tried president of

 6     Serbian Krajina, prime minister, commander of the SVK, and the

 7     spokesperson of the Main Staff, who handed down 20 years of prison, in

 8     his account.  The whole trial took 50 minutes.  And as it's stated in

 9     that judgement:  45 witnesses were examined; 200 records were also

10     examined; prosecutor's closing remarks and the defence counsel's closing

11     remarks were heard.

12             So far, nobody has ever mentioned this judgement anywhere, and

13     that dubious honour goes to Mr. Harmon.  I don't know whether Mr. Harmon

14     knows about the nature and character of this judgement and how it was

15     delivered.  And this is something that Your Honours can verify very

16     easily.

17             This is what I had to say.  And thank you very much,

18     Your Honours, for allowing me to say it.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.

20             Mr. Harmon.

21             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, for the record, the judgement of --

22     conviction against Mr. Novakovic is dated the 28th of February, 1995.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             MR. HARMON:

25        Q.   Sir, I want to turn your attention to Pauk.

Page 13443

 1             MR. HARMON:  If we could have D164 on the monitor, please.

 2     Thank you.

 3        Q.   General Novakovic, I'm going to request your assistance in this.

 4     You have used the pen that is in front of you, and you know how to mark

 5     this map.  What I'm interested in is could you just circle the area that

 6     was involved in Operation Pauk.

 7             I see we have -- oh, there we go, we erased it.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you very much, General.

10             MR. HARMON:  Could this be marked as Prosecution's next in order,

11     please.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

13     given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2926.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. HARMON:  Could I have Prosecution Exhibit 1853 on the

17     monitor, please.  And I'm interested in page 3 of the English and page 2

18     of the B/C/S.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, just -- has P2926 been captured?  Because I

20     saw it getting erased.  Okay.

21             MR. HARMON:  It has been.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. HARMON:

24        Q.   Can you -- while we're waiting for these images to appear,

25     General Novakovic, can you tell us what the purpose of the Pauk operation

Page 13444

 1     was?

 2        A.   As far as I could understand it, the purpose of Operation Spider,

 3     or Pauk, was for the refugees from the territory of Western Bosnia who

 4     found themselves in the territory of the RSK in Kordun and fighters who

 5     were loyal to Alija Izetbegovic [sic] who fled, together with their

 6     families, for them to return home.  This, how I understood it, was the

 7     main purpose and goal of that operation.

 8        Q.   Are you asserting, sir, that the Operation Pauk was a

 9     humanitarian operation?

10        A.   First and foremost of a humanitarian nature, yes.

11        Q.   Could we take a look at this document I've asked to be pulled up

12     on the monitor.  And I want to direct your attention, sir, to the

13     portion -- let's see if I have the correct page on this for you.

14             MR. HARMON:  Could we scroll up, please, on that -- down, please,

15     on that.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see Mr. Lukic is on his feet.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Perisic prompted me to highlight

18     an error in transcript.  Page 67 [as interpreted], line 10, when he

19     explained the nature -- purpose of the Operation Pauk.  And when he

20     mentioned forces loyal to, he should explain to whom they were loyal.

21             MR. HARMON:  I will examine the witness in due course on that

22     issue.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the witness said they were loyal to

24     Alija Izetbegovic.  And I think the correct reference is page 76, not 67,

25     as it was interpreted.

Page 13445

 1             MR. HARMON:  Okay.  I accept that's an error, Your Honour, and it

 2     should be -- I can ask the question.

 3        Q.   Sir, in your answer you said that "... the purpose of

 4     Operation ... Pauk, was for the refugees from the territory of

 5     Western Bosnia who found themselves in the territory of the RSK in Kordun

 6     and fighters who were loyal to Alija Izetbegovic ..."

 7             Did you mean that the people who were in Kordun were fighters who

 8     were loyal to Alija Izetbegovic or did you mean someone else?

 9        A.   No, no, no.  Fikret Abdic of course.  It's a mistake.

10        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for correcting that mistake.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. HARMON:  Thank you to counsel for bringing it to my

13     attention.

14        Q.   Sir, if we can go back to this -- the B/C/S document, I'm

15     interested in page 2 of the Serbian document.  Okay.

16             MR. HARMON:  Is this page 2 on this monitor yet?  I can't -- it

17     is.  All right.  I don't know if it is, Your Honour.  I want to be able

18     to locate for the witness the portion I want to direct his attention to,

19     and I'm having difficulty locating it myself on the Serbian-language

20     version.

21             I have located it.

22        Q.   Can you see, General Novakovic, at the top of the page it says --

23     Roman numeral II, it says "combat units"?

24        A.   I can see that, Mr. Harmon.

25        Q.   Now, I just want to check and see if this is the right page in

Page 13446

 1     English.

 2             MR. HARMON:  No.  Could I go back one page in English.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             So, Your Honours, also directing Your Honours' attention to

 5     Roman numeral II, it's about -- a little past halfway down the page.

 6        Q.   And, Mr. Novakovic, this is a document that says:

 7             "The VRSK and the VJ" --

 8        A.   I don't see it.

 9        Q.   Okay.  It's the fourth paragraph down for you, sir.  It should be

10     the fourth paragraph down.  Okay.

11             MR. HARMON:  Could we go back to the top of this document in the

12     Serbian language.

13        Q.   Do you see Roman numeral II at the top?

14        A.   Yes, I can see that.

15        Q.   Does that say "combat units"?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, do you see a paragraph that says:

18             "The VRSK and the VJ representatives held three meetings with

19     AP ZB President Fikret Abdic in Velika Kladusa, with the aim of preparing

20     an offensive activity by the AP ZB forces to regain seized territory and

21     liberate new territories ending at the Cazin area."

22             Do you see that?

23        A.   I can see that, Mr. Harmon, yes.

24        Q.   Now, General Novakovic, the 5th Corps of the ABiH posed a lethal

25     threat on your southern flanks, didn't it?

Page 13447

 1        A.   Lethal threat, that would be picturesque description.  I could

 2     not deem it as such.  It was a threat.  It was dangerous.  I can concede

 3     that.  But I'm not sure whether you are asking me questions about

 4     Operation Pauk, or Spider, or not.

 5        Q.   I'm asking you about the 5th Corps and whether the 5th Corps that

 6     was operating in the area that you circled for us on D164 posed a

 7     military threat to your southern flanks, to the RSK.  Did it or did it

 8     not?

 9        A.   It posed a threat, and it was active in an area which was broader

10     than that which are encircled.  You asked me to encircle the area where

11     Operation Pauk took place.  You did not ask me, Mr. Harmon, to delineate

12     the zone or area of responsibility of the 5th Corps.  I did not do that.

13     I did what you asked me to do.

14        Q.   Okay.  Did the 5th Corps operate in the area that you circled?

15        A.   Yes, in that area as well.

16        Q.   And did the 5th Corps operate -- that operated in that area pose

17     a threat to your southern flanks?

18        A.   It could pose a threat, and let's say that it did.

19        Q.   And did the 5th Corps also pose a military threat to the forces

20     of the VRS?

21        A.   Of course it did pose a threat.  The two were at war, weren't

22     they?

23        Q.   Now, can you please tell me, sir, what were the advantages to the

24     SVK if they reinstalled Fikret Abdic and his forces in the area that you

25     circled?

Page 13448

 1        A.   At the moment when this document was created, Mr. Harmon,

 2     Fikret Abdic's forces were in the area that I encircled.  Please, let's

 3     not get mixed up on that.  Let's avoid any confusion here.

 4        Q.   Let's try to be perfectly clear, General Novakovic.

 5     Operation Pauk was directed against the 5th Corps for the purpose of

 6     reinstalling Fikret Abdic in the area that you circled; isn't that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   In order for people to return and in order to prevent problems

 9     that had been created in Kordun, Mr. Harmon, and for us to have a

10     friendly rear, that was our position, Mr. Harmon, and those are the

11     facts.

12        Q.   So you wanted to reinstall Fikret Abdic along your rear flanks

13     because you would have an ally -- or at least a -- not -- you wouldn't

14     have an enemy that could potentially threaten the RSK's existence.  Do

15     you agree with that proposition or not?

16        A.   I agree, Mr. Harmon.  But that was not our only interest, and it

17     was not as it is described in this document here.

18        Q.   Okay.  My question then originally was -- I had you what the

19     military advantages were to the RSK if Fikret Abdic was in --

20     reinstalled.  What were the military advantages to the SVK -- to the VRS?

21     I'm sorry.

22        A.   Mr. Harmon, I believe that we are again talking at

23     cross-purposes.  Things have gotten so mixed up that the Trial Chamber

24     will never understand the gist of this situation.

25             At that time, Fikret Abdic's forces were in the territory, and

Page 13449

 1     there was nowhere for them to turn because they were already there.  At

 2     the moment on -- when I saw the document on the 20th of August, this

 3     year - and this document is dated June - after the 20th of August our

 4     biggest security problem is -- the security problem in Kordun was the

 5     number of citizens of Kordun, the overpopulation, and all the problems

 6     that arose from that fact.  And that actually became the main problem.

 7             We're talking about different periods.  We were not in a position

 8     to return them anywhere.  They were already there.  And once they left,

 9     their number one was this; number two is -- also what you are referring

10     to and that is friends in our rear flanks rather than enemies.  And

11     that's true.

12        Q.   Well, let's approach it slightly differently, General Novakovic.

13     What military forces were used in Operation Pauk?  Were SVK forces used

14     in Operation Pauk?

15        A.   Yes, partially, Mr. Harmon.

16        Q.   How many SVK forces were used, and what units were used in

17     Operation Pauk?

18        A.   From the Serbian Krajina army, support came in the form of two or

19     three artillery batteries -- not at all times, mind you.  Also, the

20     forces of the border detachment that normally manned the front line

21     facing the 5th Corps.  And as the front line was moved forward, those

22     forces moved there own front lines and kept on manning the front line and

23     defence lines facing the 5th Corps.

24             Sometimes even the Western Bosnian forces, or rather, forces

25     loyal to Fikret Abdic advanced across their lines.  Those were the

Page 13450

 1     participants on the side where Operation Pauk took place, and those were

 2     support forces from the Serbian Army of Krajina.  In order to enforce the

 3     21st border detachment, occasionally forces up to the strength of a

 4     company were brought in from all the three brigades of the 21st Corps,

 5     and that is also true.

 6        Q.   What forces of the VRS were involved in Operation Pauk?

 7        A.   VRS forces which were engaged, but not throughout the entire

 8     duration of the operation, were forces up to the strength of one

 9     battalion at most.  Mr. Harmon, I'm not talking about forces which were

10     engaged in a battle with the 5th Corps normally; I'm just talking about

11     Operation Pauk in the zone that I marked.

12        Q.   Sir, what forces from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia MUP were

13     involved in Operation Pauk?

14        A.   I cannot say that those men that had arrived from Serbia were

15     members of the federal MUP or the MUP of the Federal Republic of

16     Yugoslavia.  I never heard that.

17        Q.   Did you ever hear that MUP units or MUP personnel were engaged in

18     Operation Pauk?

19        A.   Well, as individuals.  But I was told that they were volunteers

20     from Serbia.  I don't know who they were.  I never inspected their IDs or

21     official documents, if they had them at all.

22        Q.   Did you ever meet with Jovica Stanisic in respect of

23     Operation Pauk?

24        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

25        Q.   Where did you meet with him?

Page 13451

 1        A.   In Kordun.

 2        Q.   Did you meet with him in Belgrade?

 3        A.   Yes, in Belgrade too.

 4        Q.   Who did you meet him with when you went to Belgrade to meet him

 5     in respect of Operation Pauk?

 6        A.   I don't remember, sir.  There were many such meetings involving

 7     different people, so it's very hard for me to remember.

 8        Q.   What Federal Republic of Yugoslavia members did you meet with in

 9     respect of Operation Pauk while you were involved in the operation?

10        A.   While I was involved in the operation or while I was army

11     commander?

12        Q.   While you were involved in Operation Pauk.

13        A.   I met with Mr. Milosevic.

14        Q.   On how many occasions?

15        A.   I think twice.

16        Q.   Now let me just return to the forces of the SVK because you

17     described them a moment ago and I want to ask you specifically.  Were

18     forces of the 21st Corps involved in Operation Pauk?

19        A.   Yes, I said that, and I can repeat it if --

20        Q.   No, there's no reason to repeat it.  Were forces of the

21     11th Corps used -- of the SVK used in Operation Pauk?

22        A.   Occasionally, for certain short periods, units ranging in

23     strength from a company to two companies were brought in.

24        Q.   Were VJ forces used in Operation Pauk?

25        A.   No, absolutely not.

Page 13452

 1        Q.   Beside the forces of the VRS, the SVK, and the FRY MUP, can you

 2     tell us what other military forces were used in Operation Pauk?

 3     Fikret Abdic's forces is another element --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think the witness said those were volunteers,

 7     not the FRY MUP.

 8             MR. HARMON:  That's what he said, Your Honour, yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what he said.

10             MR. HARMON:  I understand that.

11        Q.   We also failed to address Fikret Abdic's forces, sir.  They were

12     obviously involved in, obviously, Operation Pauk.  Were there any other

13     forces used in Operation Pauk beside the ones we have been exploring?

14        A.   Fikret Abdic's forces were the main part of the forces.  The

15     others were just occasional participants.  The other forces -- I don't

16     know.  Nothing comes to mind.  Maybe you can jog my memory, and if I can

17     remember anything, I'm certainly going to confirm what you asked me.

18     There's no reason for me to hide anything.

19             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, this would be an appropriate time to

20     take a break.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And do you want to jog his memory on this last

22     point before we take a break?

23             MR. HARMON:  No, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.

25             Once again, we haven't finished with you, Mr. Novakovic.  We'll

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 1     start again tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.  Again, you may not discuss

 2     the case with anybody.

 3             Court adjourned to 9.00 Friday morning in Courtroom II.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of

 7                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.