1 Friday, 3 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
8 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.
10 Good morning, everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number
11 IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you, Your
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Could we have appearances for the day, starting with the
15 Prosecution, please.
16 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.
17 Good morning, everyone in the courtroom. Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata,
18 Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 And for the Defence.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
22 morning to everybody in the courtroom and around the courtroom.
23 Appearing for Mr. Perisic today are Novak Lukic and Boris Zorko.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.
25 Good morning, Mr. Novakovic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sure by now you do know that you are bound by
3 the declaration you made at the beginning of the testimony to tell the
4 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Thank you very
6 Mr. Harmon.
7 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 WITNESS: MILE NOVAKOVIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, General Novakovic.
12 A. Good morning, Prosecutor Harmon.
13 Q. General, I'd like to finish your evidence this morning, and I'm
14 sure you would like to finish your evidence this morning as well, so
15 listen carefully to my questions and we will accomplish that task.
16 On what date did the refugees from the Cazin area enter into
17 Kordun and create a humanitarian crisis?
18 A. To the best of my recollection, Mr. Harmon, that was on the 20th
19 and 21st of August, 1994, the refugees came from the areas of Cazin and
20 Velika Kladusa.
21 Q. And on what date did Operation Pauk begin?
22 A. Operation Pauk, as far as I can remember, started in mid-December
24 MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecution Exhibit 902 on the monitor,
25 the first page of that exhibit in both languages, please.
1 Q. I can see that that copy in the Serbian language is a little
2 difficult to read off the monitor. Do you have problems reading that,
3 General? I have a hard copy for you if it is difficult for you to read.
4 A. This is really hardly legible on the screen, Mr. Harmon.
5 MR. HARMON: Could I have the assistance of the monitor and with
6 the Court's permission could I give the witness a hard copy of this
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may do so, sir.
9 MR. HARMON:
10 Q. Is that better, General?
11 A. Somewhat better, although --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Do you have a copy for the interpreters?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but it's better.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
15 MR. HARMON: I do not -- there is a copy for the interpreters.
16 Q. We will begin by identifying this document. First of all, this
17 is a document from the Main Staff of the VRS that is dated the 2nd of
18 July, 1994, and if we could go to the last page in the -- the
19 second-to-last page in the English, page 3, I want to see the signature
20 of the person who issued this combat order. Thank you. We can see it in
21 English. If we go into the B/C/S -- or actually, that's fine.
22 General, can you just look at the last page in the copy in front
23 of you and tell us whose name appears to be the person who issued this
25 A. On the last page in the left bottom corner I see the words
1 "Deputy Commander Lieutenant-General Manojlo Milovanovic."
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. HARMON: Could we return to the first page of the two
4 versions of this document.
5 Q. And, General, I want to direct your attention while you have the
6 document in hand I'm going to be discussing the paragraph 2, so if you
7 could get a head start and start reading that. All right. Paragraph 2
8 of this combat order reads that:
9 "Pursuant to the agreement between the Army of Yugoslavia, the
10 Army of Republika Srpska, the Serbian Army of Krajina, and the armed
11 forces of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia, Directive 6 issued
12 by the Supreme Command and the armed forces of Republika Srpska on 11
13 November 1993, and the agreement concluded in Vojnic on 24 June 1994
14 between the representatives of the Army of Yugoslavia, the Army of
15 Republika Srpska, the Army of Krajina, and the military representatives
16 of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia, the Army of Republika
17 Srpska has the task of starting offensive operations on 10 July, 1994
18 the direction of the River Una engaging as much as possible the forces of
19 the 5th Corps of the so-called BH Army, reaching the right bank of the
20 River Una, and thus making it possible to carry out the plans of the
21 armed forces of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia
22 control of the territory of Cazin Krajina."
23 Now, sir, let me ask you in respect of this document, have you
24 ever seen this document before?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Okay. This document at the beginning of paragraph 2 refers to an
2 agreement between the Army of Yugoslavia
3 Srpska, the Serbian Army of Krajina which you were the commander, and the
4 armed forces of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia
5 reference to an agreement. What was that agreement, sir?
6 A. You will have to ask that -- those who took part in reaching that
7 agreement. At that time, I was not in the command structure of the SVK
8 or the VRS or the VJ, Mr. Harmon.
9 Q. Okay. But you were still in the SVK and you were still an
10 advisor to -- you still held a high position in the army, did you not?
11 So an agreement between the VJ, the SVK, the VRS, and the autonomous
12 province of Western Bosnia
13 important, wouldn't it?
14 A. Mr. Harmon, this document is entitled -- is dated the 2nd of
15 July, 1994. I don't believe -- it's doubtful that at that time I was not
16 in the SVK, neither in those other two aforementioned armies, nor was I
17 in any way involved in preparing or reaching such an agreement, nor do I
18 know anything about that agreement.
19 Q. Okay. You say that you were not in the SVK on the 2nd of July,
20 1994? That's your testimony as translated.
21 A. That's correct. At the time I was deputy supreme commander for
22 national security and international relations, as I've stated on a number
23 of occasions.
24 Q. Did you still hold a post in the SVK on the 2nd of July, 1994?
25 Were you still a member of the SVK?
1 A. Mr. Harmon, I was assistant supreme commander for national
2 security and international relations. If I were to say that I was
3 involved in the SVK, then I would have to tell you what exact post I held
4 in the SVK at the time. At the time I held no posts in the SVK.
5 Q. Okay. Well, let's turn to the second part of this paragraph 2,
6 and it references a meeting -- an agreement that was concluded on the
7 24th of June, 1994, in Vojnic. Vojnic is in the RSK, it's a town in the
8 RSK, isn't it?
9 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon.
10 Q. And can you tell us anything about the -- an agreement that took
11 place in the RSK involving the representatives of the Army of Yugoslavia,
12 the Republika Srpska, the SVK, and the military representatives from the
13 autonomous province of Western Bosnia
14 A. Commander of the Serbian Army of Krajina was General Celeketic
15 and there was no love lost between us. What he took part I never took
16 part in, which means that I wasn't there in Vojnic concerning what you're
17 asking me about.
18 Q. Okay. We can see, General, at the end of this second paragraph
19 General Milovanovic says that the VRS is supposed to start offensive
20 operations on the 10th of July in the direction of the River Una, and
21 thus make it possible to carry out plans for Fikret Abdic's forces to
22 take full control over the Cazin Krajina. Operation Pauk had similar
23 objectives, that is, to take-over territory in the Cazin Krajina area,
24 didn't it?
25 A. Answering to your question about the similarities and differences
1 between these operations and Operation Pauk would require plenty of time
2 that you would deem unnecessary. In essence, those were operations
3 against the 5th Corps in both cases; that much is correct. With this
4 difference, the VRS before and after this operation and after what was
5 deemed -- labelled as Operation Pauk did take action through its 2nd
6 Krajina Corps against the 5th Corps in the Cazin region.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir. I'm done with this document.
8 A. Mr. Harmon.
9 Q. Yes, sir?
10 A. If you allow me, in paragraph 7 of this document let's clarify
11 matters for the benefit of the Bench. In sentence 1 it states:
12 "Operation is to be carried out under the title Una-94."
13 Does it present clearly that this is not Operation Pauk then, and
14 in such a light I don't know what the gist of your questions are --
15 Q. Sir, let me interrupt you for a minute. I never asserted that
16 this was Operation Pauk. I was asking you if there were similarities in
17 terms of the objectives between the Una operation and Operation Pauk.
18 And I believe you answered that question for me, so we are concluded with
19 this document.
20 Now, what was Operation Breza 94?
21 A. First I hear about an operation named Breza 94.
22 Q. Okay. If you don't know anything about it, we will conclude the
23 topic and we'll move to another topic, General.
24 What was the Pauk command?
25 A. Mr. Harmon, you are expecting me to say that I was commander of
1 the Pauk command. I answer that I was commander of Pauk command for that
2 part, referring to carrying out of combat operation; but I wasn't a
3 commander with full authority of a commander as defined in the word
4 "commander." And this needs an explanation if you'd like to hear it.
5 Q. Sir, my question -- we will get to that point. My question -- if
6 you listen carefully to my question I asked you: What was the Pauk
7 command? What was it?
8 A. Pauk command comprised of Supreme Command of the People's Defence
9 of the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia, Serif Mustedanagic was at
10 the head of that, and four to five Serbian officers headed by me who
11 assisted them in planning combat operations and in co-ordination of these
12 combat operations with the SVK.
13 Q. And did you have the role of the commander of the Pauk command or
14 did you have the title of commander in the Pauk command?
15 A. It is unclear to me what you mean - and I insist on it - what is
16 the role and what is the title, Mr. Harmon?
17 Q. Sir, I corrected my question and I changed it from the role to
18 the title. Were you -- did you issue orders under the title of commander
19 of Pauk command?
20 A. On the basis of what is agreed upon by the representatives of the
21 units taking part in specific action and if -- and agreed upon by
22 Fikret Abdic as the president of the Autonomous Province of Western
24 agreements and joint consultations for specific combat activities and
25 operations as a commander over the carrying out of such combat
2 Q. Now, I'll give you an opportunity to explain your role as opposed
3 to your title. What was your actual role in the Pauk operation? You
4 mentioned co-ordination. What forces were you co-ordinating?
5 A. I co-ordinated the use of those forces that I enumerated
6 yesterday as taking part in operations during Operation Pauk, and if need
7 be I may repeat those.
8 Q. We'll come to that later, sir. In terms of the orders that you
9 issued, did you issue combat orders?
10 A. I issued exclusively combat orders on the basis of decisions
11 taken by representatives of all the units and all the amassed that were
12 supposed to take part in such a combat activity or action or operation.
13 Q. Did you prepare regular combat reports?
14 A. Did I prepare regular combat reports you mean?
15 Q. That's what I asked you, sir, yes. Did you prepare regular
16 combat reports?
17 A. Regular combat reports, no; but interim combat reports, yes.
18 Q. Did you send those combat reports that you prepared to anyone?
19 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon.
20 Q. To whom did you send those combat reports?
21 A. As far as I can remember, such combat reports we would send to
22 the Main
24 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia on what was happening there.
25 Q. Did you send regular combat reports and extraordinary combat
1 reports to General Perisic?
2 A. Extraordinary reports, yes, but no regular reports as far as I
3 can remember. I wanted to keep him posted of the situation. To be -- to
4 use a precise military term, and this is an important distinction, those
5 reports were information in their character and purpose.
6 MR. HARMON: Could we have XN321 on the monitor, please, and I am
7 interested in 0 -- English translation 0280-6335, B/C/S page 2.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Purpose?
9 MR. HARMON: At this point I want to refresh the witness's
10 recollection with it if -- well, it's to impeach him, Your Honour, but I
11 want to explore this with him, so that's the purpose.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If it's used for impeachment, I do
14 not object for the document to be shown to the witness.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MR. HARMON:
17 Q. Sir, the document in front of you is a regular combat report. It
18 is dated the 3rd of May, 1995, and it bears a typed name, your name, at
19 the bottom. Do you recognise this document, sir?
20 A. I can see that, yes, Mr. Harmon.
21 Q. Now, this document --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry, Mr. Harmon.
23 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see a discrepancy in
25 the translation, and you will see that for yourself. In the date on the
1 original document -- I'm checking whether this is the same document, yes,
2 it is. It says here 11th of May in the original and in the English
3 translation is the 3rd of May, 1995. I only hope that this is the only
4 problem with translation.
5 MR. HARMON: This is the wrong document in B/C/S, so that's the
6 problem. The B/C/S version that I have says the 3rd of May, and perhaps
7 I gave you the wrong page reference but I don't think so. 0280-6335,
8 English translation.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you're sorting that out, Mr. Harmon --
10 MR. HARMON: Page 2.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- can we see the signed part in the English part,
13 MR. HARMON: Yes. Could the Registrar please go to the next page
14 in English.
15 Q. All right, sir, this --
16 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, may I proceed?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may.
18 MR. HARMON:
19 Q. General Novakovic, this has your typed name under the title of
20 "commander." And we can see, if we can go -- at the top that this
21 document emanates from the Pauk command. We can see that at the top of
22 the document on the first page in the English, if we could return to the
23 first page in the English.
24 Now, sir, this was sent to -- personally to General Perisic. It
25 doesn't say for information. It was sent to General Perisic, it was sent
1 to the -- obviously to General Celeketic, to the commander of the 21st
2 command, the 39th command, the 2nd Krajina Corps of the VRS, and it's a
3 regular combat report. How often did you send these types of regular
4 combat reports to General Perisic?
5 A. Mr. Harmon, the very list of people and their positions to whom
6 this combat report was sent shows that the report was sent to persons
7 who, apart from the Main Staff of the SVK, are not in a relationship of
8 subordination. So that is there was no hierarchy in place with regard to
9 the Pauk command. The Chief of General Staff of the VJ and the commander
10 of the 21st Corps and the commander of the 39th Corps and the commander
11 of the 2nd Krajina Corps in the last line, seem to be at an equal rank,
12 at an equal level --
13 Q. Let me stop you there for a minute. My question to you was: How
14 often did you send these types of regular combat reports to
15 General Perisic? That was my question. Can you answer that question,
17 A. If that was your question, I think it was about once a week.
18 Q. Why did you send a regular combat report to General Perisic once
19 a week?
20 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I sent information about the situation to
21 General Perisic for the same reason as to the commander of the 2nd Corps,
22 the commander of the 21st Corps of the SVK, and the commander of the 39th
23 Corps of the SVK, and that is for them to be familiar with the
24 development of the situation and the circumstances in the field.
25 Q. You also sent a request to General Perisic to provide you and
1 your operation with logistical assistance and materiel, didn't you?
2 A. Only when the Main Staff of the SVK couldn't provide or
3 Mr. Fikret Abdic in the ways that he had available, the ways and means he
4 had available, but I'm not familiar with them.
5 Q. Did the Pauk operation consume large amounts of ammunition, for
6 example, artillery shells?
7 A. I would sooner say that the consumption was normal, sir.
8 Q. Okay. The Pauk operation you told us began in December of 1994
9 and it ended in August of 1995, so there must have been a fairly large
10 consumption of ammunition, small arms ammunition, and artillery
11 ammunition. Would you agree with me or not agree with me?
12 A. In all militaries of the world, there are standards, Mr. Harmon,
13 standards with regards to ammunition consumption. Sometimes the unit of
14 measure is a day of warfare. So you can apply the standard to establish
15 how much ammunition will be required. If we were to apply NATO
16 standards, then the consumption was small.
17 Q. So tell me, what was the volume of small arms ammunition you
18 consumed in Operation Pauk, using the standards that you have described ?
19 A. No, sir, I cannot tell you off the top of my head. I don't want
20 to mention a ballpark figure and then it can turn out to be wrong. It's
21 the logistics officers who can say more about that, but there are
22 international standards, and I can -- and I'm speaking on the basis of
23 what I heard as going on on the front line. But I never dealt with the
24 figures and tables and such.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MR. HARMON:
2 Q. Sir, let me -- are you able to recall how many times you went to
3 General Perisic or sent requests to General Perisic for logistical
4 support for Operation Pauk?
5 A. I remember that it happened at least once.
6 Q. I won't pursue the matter further, General. Let me ask you as
7 the Pauk commander, sir, did you maintain a Pauk command operations
9 A. Well, to tell you the truth, in the BH press after the war I saw
10 a -- I saw the copy of such a log-book. I believe that it was kept for a
11 while. Whether it was kept all the time or not, I don't know. It was
12 kept, I suppose, by the officer in the operations room. But I repeat
13 that I saw entries from that log-book after the war in the BH media.
14 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could I tender XN321 into evidence,
15 please, could it be given an exhibit number.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
17 given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It shall be given
19 Exhibit P02927. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. General, isn't it standard operating procedure in the military
23 when there is an operation -- military operation being conducted to
24 maintain a log-book?
25 A. In a standard army and in a standard command, certainly,
1 Mr. Harmon; that is one of the basic standards. But this was not a
2 permanent formation nor an establishment unit, nor was it indeed a true
4 Q. So what you can tell us -- actually, let me take that back.
5 When an operations log-book is maintained, what is the purpose of
6 maintaining a log-book?
7 A. The purpose of the log-book is for all messages to be recorded in
8 the form it was received. It is not for the one entering it to interpret
9 it or to assess its credibility, but simply to make a note of it.
10 Q. And the note includes the person who communicated to the
11 operations room and -- correct? So the person who sent the message or
12 sent the order or transmitted a communication is recorded in an
13 operations log-book; correct?
14 A. The participants to a communication must be entered and the
15 nature of the communication, whether it's a report, an order, or anything
17 Q. Was there a communications log-book kept at the forward command
18 post for Operation Pauk?
19 A. I can neither confirm nor deny that. I didn't go to the forward
20 command post.
21 Q. Sir, when a log-book -- a log-book is issued and items are
22 recorded in it and you get to the last page of a log-book, is it supposed
23 to -- is there supposed to be an official closing of that book with the
24 signature from someone who will certify that the book has -- is an
25 official book?
1 A. Well, that would be the regular procedure.
2 Q. Okay. And who in the Pauk command would be the person who would
3 execute that procedure? Who would sign at the end of a log-book?
4 A. If we're speaking about the communications station, then it would
5 be the chief of communications.
6 Q. Okay. And what role did Cedo Bulat have in the Pauk command?
7 A. The late Colonel Cedomir Bulat was Chief of Staff in that Serbian
8 component of the Pauk command.
9 Q. Do you know what role, if any, he would have with the Pauk
10 command log-book in terms of its maintenance or in terms of its -- yeah,
11 in terms of its maintenance and possession?
12 A. Well, he must have been the person who organised the work of our
13 component of the command and who took care of the functioning of that
14 component, and the other component was the People's Defence of the
15 Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia.
16 Q. Now, during a military operation various participants have
17 code-names or call-signs; that's standard operating procedure, isn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was your code-name in Operation Pauk?
20 A. It was Pauk, Spider.
21 Q. Now, in terms of Operation Pauk, sir, were there battle groups?
22 A. For some combat assignments, battle groups were established.
23 Whether or not they were established depended on the purpose of the
24 manoeuvre --
25 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the last part of the witness's
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Sir, the interpreters didn't hear the last part of your answer.
4 Could you please repeat the last part of your answer.
5 A. Battle groups were established because they were not
6 establishment units. Battle groups of different strength and different
7 composition were formed for various assignments or for various phases of
8 the carrying out of combat missions. Their composition was not
9 permanent; it changed. So the answer is: Yes, they were formed
10 occasionally, but they were temporary units, temporary formations.
11 Q. And what are tactical groups? Is there a difference between a
12 battle group and a tactical group?
13 A. There is a difference in principle between a battle group and a
14 tactical group. Battle groups should be around about a battalion strong
15 or a reinforced battalion, whereas tactical groups are usually a brigade
16 plus something in addition.
17 Q. Now, do you remember -- you said essentially that these battle
18 groups -- I mean the tactical groups and battle groups are essentially
19 ad hoc. Depends on the situation. They were formed for particular
20 assignments. Did I understand your evidence properly?
21 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon, and their composition varied.
22 Q. Now, sir, yesterday at the end of your evidence I had asked you
23 which groups had participated in Operation Pauk, and you identified some
24 groups for me. And then you said nothing else came to mind. Maybe I
25 could jog your memory and you could remember. So let me try to jog your
1 memory. I want to show you a photograph.
2 MR. HARMON: And if I could have XN393 on the monitor.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Purpose?
4 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, just to see if the witness -- I may not
5 introduce this document. I want to show the witness this document; it
6 may assist him in remembering who certain people are and what their roles
7 are. I'm not seeking its introduction.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You haven't asked him about any people.
9 MR. HARMON: Well, if I am permitted to show him XN393, I intend
10 to ask him about the people who appear in the photograph.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't have a problem with such a
13 question being asked, but if Mr. Harmon were to tender this particular
14 photograph then he would have to state a reason.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Harmon.
16 MR. HARMON:
17 Q. Sir, let me direct your attention in this exhibit to the person
18 on the left of the image. Can you identify that person?
19 A. Mr. Harmon, I can not only identify the persons in this
20 photograph, I can also tell you where the place -- I can tell you the
21 place where it was taken and the time is -- can be seen in the photograph
23 Q. Well, let's start with identifying the person on the left. Who
24 is that?
25 A. This is Mr. Milorad Ulemek, also known as Legija.
1 Q. And you said you could identify both persons. Who's the person
2 then in the centre of this image holding the binoculars?
3 A. That's Slobodan Medic, who at that time was the commander of a
4 unit that had arrived from the eastern part, the 11th Corps. It only --
5 it was only supposed to stay for a limited time and it never saw combat.
6 If you wish, I can tell you where exactly this photograph was taken.
7 Q. Please, General. Where was it taken?
8 A. This photograph was taken at Gladno Brdo, 700 metres from the
9 place where -- when this photograph was taken, my electronic surveillance
10 unit discovered a Hamze Mujahedin group established by Bin Laden. We
11 opened fire and reduced their strength from 12 to 8. That is why I
12 exactly remember the place and time when this photograph was taken.
13 Whether or not Bin Laden was there at the time, perhaps -- I don't know.
14 But he may have been in Mr. Izetbegovic's office, though.
15 Q. We won't explore that possibility, General, but you were present
16 when this photograph was taken, weren't you?
17 A. Yes, I've just said that I was there.
18 Q. Okay. Now, this image was taken from a film. Have you seen the
19 film from which this image was taken?
20 A. Yes, sir, several times. It was broadcast several times on
21 Serbian television channels.
22 Q. Okay. Let us start with the man on the left, Legija. What
23 unit -- first of all, what role did he have in the Pauk operation?
24 A. For a while he was an advisor in the 2nd Brigade during
25 Operation Pauk, the 2nd Brigade of the People's Defence of the Autonomous
1 Province of Western Bosnia, and the commander's name was Zumret, I forget
2 his last name. Later when some other units of company level were added
3 to that brigade, he was the commander of the tactical group.
4 Q. He was the commander of Tactical Group 2, wasn't he?
5 A. Tactical Group 2.
6 Q. Did Tactical Group 2 come under your command, your specific
7 command or did it come under someone else's command?
8 A. Once the agreement was reached and the decision was taken to
9 launch a particular combat operation, then he too, like other unit
10 commanders of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia, were under my
11 technological command for the carrying out of that combat operation. But
12 when it wasn't about the carrying out of a combat operation the units of
13 Western Bosnia were not under my command nor were they units of the SVK
14 or any other units under my command. It even happened that we -- once we
15 planned a certain combat mission and a planned participant wouldn't take
16 part in the implementation, then it wouldn't be implemented.
17 Q. Before the Pauk operation, what unit did he come from?
18 A. Who are you asking me about, sir, Mr. Ulemek?
19 Q. I'm asking you about the man in the far left of the photograph,
20 Legija. Before Operation Pauk started he was in a military formation.
21 Can you tell us what military formation he was in?
22 A. No, I don't know which military formation he was in. You just
23 used his nickname to refer to him, Legija, whereas I called him by his
24 real name, Ulemek.
25 Q. Okay. Well, Mr. Ulemek was a member of a paramilitary formation
1 known as the Serb Volunteer Guard, wasn't he? He was a member of Arkan's
2 Tigers before he came to Operation Pauk; isn't that correct?
3 A. That Mr. Ulemek was a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard in
4 February 1993, that is correct; but outside that period and all the time
5 until Operation Pauk is something I cannot possibly know. But I know for
6 certain that he was in February 1993 because I saw him on -- that unit
7 came to help us after the Croatian offensive in Ravni Kotari in Dalmatia
8 Q. And how many members of Arkan's Tigers came with Mr. Ulemek to
9 assist in Operation Pauk?
10 A. Mr. Harmon, I had no way of finding out who belongs to the Tigers
11 or anybody else. I saw five or six men around Mr. Ulemek. Whether there
12 were others who belonged there or elsewhere, I had no possibility to find
13 out nor did I have the desire to do so.
14 Q. Why didn't you have the desire to do so? You were the commander
15 of Operation -- of Operation Pauk. Why didn't you have a desire to find
16 out what units within your available forces came from?
17 A. Mr. Harmon, I was interested in the strength of those units and
18 the problems with the use of those units in combat. I had no time to
19 check their IDs. I didn't even have the right to check the files of any
20 member of the SVK to see which unit they belonged to. Whoever was sent
21 there simply arrived and that there was no -- it wouldn't have been
22 logical for me to line them up and then check who belonged to which unit
23 and where they had come from.
24 Q. Who sent Mr. Ulemek to Operation Pauk?
25 A. I couldn't say, sir.
1 Q. Did you travel to Belgrade
2 commander of Operation Pauk?
3 A. Yes, once.
4 Q. And how long were you in Belgrade
5 A. I wasn't in Belgrade
6 without his company. As far as I understood, he had some burning
7 political problems, whereas I had my own activities there. I believe
8 that my stay there lasted for a day or two and I even think that he
9 didn't return with us after that spell in Belgrade -- no, he didn't.
10 Q. Do you remember when you travelled to Belgrade with Mr. Ulemek?
11 A. I believe that was sometime at the beginning of 1995, Mr. Harmon,
12 but I cannot specify the date.
13 Q. Okay. Who summoned you to Belgrade
14 A. I was supposed to go to visit Mr. Milosevic then, and I think
15 that Mr. Ulemek was supposed to meet Mr. Stanisic.
16 Q. Okay. Now, when Mr. Ulemek was the commander of Tactical Group
17 2, how many men were under his command?
18 A. I think it was approximately 1200, maybe at times 1500, men or
19 maybe I would be exaggerating. Slightly above 1.000 men at any rate.
20 Q. And Mr. Ulemek was convicted in March of 1993 [sic] for the
21 assassination of Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic, wasn't he?
22 A. Mr. Harmon, by my calculations that would be eight years. I
23 don't know what your drift is and what is the connection between me and
24 that event.
25 Q. Sir, if I say 19 -- can you just answer my question. Mr. Ulemek
1 was convicted only the 27th of May, 2007 - not 1993 as recorded - for the
2 assassination of Mr. Djindjic; is that correct?
3 MR. LUKIC: Objection.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I truly do not know how relevant this
6 question is for the testimony of this witness generally speaking. If
7 Mr. Harmon could explain.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe it goes to discredit me in
9 some way. I don't know.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Relevance, Mr. Harmon?
11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm just trying to complete the circle
12 on this -- who this person is and --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: But relevance?
14 MR. HARMON: Its relevance is that this man was a paramilitary,
15 and he was somebody who was sent to participate in this operation. It is
16 relevant only to identify who he is and for no other purpose.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, we -- that's not the relevance we require,
18 Mr. Harmon.
19 MR. HARMON: All right.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: We want the relevance to this case.
21 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour, I can't establish that.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then we will strike it out.
23 MR. HARMON: All right.
24 Q. Let's go to the next man in this image, sir, the man that you
25 have identified as Mr. Medic, the man holding the binoculars. What role
1 did he have in the operation?
2 A. No role, Mr. Harmon.
3 Q. What was he doing in the trench with you and Mr. Ulemek on the
4 6th of April, 1995?
5 A. Obviously, as can be seen here, he's observing his unit, some 50
6 men that he'd brought from the eastern part of the Republic of Serbian
7 Krajina. At the time, pursuant to an order of an epidemiologist were
8 isolated in quarantine because of an infectious disease that they
9 contracted by using dirty water. They were kept in isolation,
10 Madam Pajic, Dr. Pajic, epidemiologist treated them, and after they were
11 cured they were sent packing back from where they came from. So his role
12 and the role of his units was non-existent.
13 MR. HARMON: Can I have just a minute, Your Honours, I need to
14 consult that document. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MR. HARMON:
18 Q. General, did he have a nickname?
19 A. At the time, Mr. Harmon, I think they called him Boca because of
20 his first name, Slobodan.
21 Q. What was the name of the -- of his unit?
22 A. At the time there was no name, Mr. Harmon. It was a company
23 which came from the Mirkovci Brigade, from the area of Djeletovci where
24 it was deployed, and as such they were dispatched probably pursuant to a
25 Main Staff of the SVK order for them to be temporarily in our
1 composition. It bore no other name, but I do know what you're getting at
2 now, Mr. Harmon.
3 Q. Did the unit he commanded have the name the Skorpions?
4 A. Mr. Harmon, that unit did not bear that name at the time. I can
5 tell you frankly and you may or may not believe me. After the war, after
6 Skorpions started appearing in the press, I thought I knew several units
7 on the Croatian and Serbian side who called themselves dangerous names,
8 Skorpions, Cobras, Bears, Wolves, et cetera, but I never heard about
9 Skorpions, and then I was surprised six, seven years ago when I heard
10 that Slobodan Medic's unit had been named Skorpions. You may believe me,
11 you may not believe me, but I can't help it. At the time that unit did
12 not bear the name Skorpions because I never heard such a name at the time
14 Q. Let me see if I can jog your memory, General. You indicated that
15 Mr. Medic came from -- I think you said a particular area. I don't have
16 it on the transcript anymore. But I want to submit to you that he was
17 part of a special task unit from Belgrade
18 recollection, sir, as to where he came from?
19 A. Nothing could refresh my memory in the direction of what I do not
20 know, Mr. Harmon. While I was a commander I found him in the position
21 towards the village of Njemci
22 he in the meantime changed his position or -- after I no longer was
23 commander of the SVK is something I don't -- do not know, neither could I
24 know anything of the sort.
25 Q. Okay. Was the first time you met this man in -- on the 6th of
1 April in the particular trench where you found yourselves together?
2 A. For the third time in my testimony, Mr. Harmon, I repeat I saw
3 him while I toured the 11th Corps and the positions of the Mirkovci
4 Brigade. I cannot specify the number of that brigade. And that's --
5 that brigade was in the oilfields of Djeletovci and manned the front line
6 facing the village of Nijemci
8 Q. Sir, when you were the commander of Operation Pauk and he came
9 toward -- and he came to participate with a unit in Operation Pauk, was
10 this the first time - the 6th of April - that you met him? I'm talking
11 in the context of Operation Pauk. I'm not talking in terms of the
12 oilfields at Djeletovci.
13 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. When he came into the composition of this
14 group, that was the second time that I clapped my eyes on him in my life.
15 MR. HARMON: Could I --
16 Q. I want to show you a photograph of -- another photograph and I
17 want you to see if you can identify this individual. It's XN398.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we go to that photograph, what do you want
19 to do with this one?
20 MR. HARMON: I don't intend to seek its admission, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you. XN398. What's the purpose?
22 MR. HARMON: I just want to see if he can identify an individual
23 in a photograph.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no problems if the purpose is
1 the same.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 Mr. Harmon.
4 MR. HARMON:
5 Q. General, are you able to identify the man in the middle of the
6 photograph wearing a moustache?
7 A. That is Colonel Nikola Bobic of the SVK.
8 Q. Thank you, General. I've concluded my examination. I appreciate
9 your patience.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.
11 On that note can we take a break and come back at quarter to
12 11.00. Court adjourned.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the record show that Exhibit XN398 was not
17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if I, with the Court's permission, may
18 re-open for a few minutes, I want to ask the witness some questions that
19 arose as a result of his testimony at the end of the hour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
21 Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Novakovic will be
23 the most affected. Only briefly, because I believe we should be through
24 with the General today. I leave it in your hands to determine that,
25 since I have not started my re-direct.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may re-open.
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Sir, I want to focus my attention on your evidence that's found
4 at page 25, line -- starting at line 4 when I asked you if the unit that
5 was under the command of Mr. Medic was known as the Skorpions. And what
6 you -- your answer was that after the war the Skorpions started appearing
7 in the press. You went on to say:
8 "But I never heard about the Skorpions and I was surprised six or
9 seven years ago when I heard that Slobodan Medic's unit had been named
10 the Skorpions. You may believe me, you may not believe me, but I can't
11 help it. At that time that unit did not bear the name Skorpions because
12 I never heard such a name at that time anywhere."
13 Sir, I want to show you, if I could have XN315 on the -- as an
14 exhibit and I want to show you a portion of this video at 18 --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Purpose, Mr. Harmon?
17 MR. HARMON: To impeach the witness, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
19 Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not object it being used for
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Q. Sir, do you see the image that is before you at 00:18:02.0?
1 A. I can see it. I don't know what the date of the document is. I
2 don't know its provenance and this is the first time that I see it.
3 Q. Do you recognise the patch that's on the beret of the soldier who
4 is in the centre of the image?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, if the witness is seeing this for the
6 first time, how does he recognise?
7 MR. HARMON: Because the image of what is on the patch is very
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can see it, but recognise -- I suppose you're
10 suggesting that -- recognise from somewhere else?
11 MR. HARMON: No, then let me rephrase my question.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right.
13 MR. HARMON:
14 Q. Can you, sir, identify the patch that is on the beret of the man
15 in the centre of the image?
16 A. On this screen 18:02
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under 9 it is stated
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the witness looking at and what are we
21 looking at?
22 MR. HARMON: I don't know. I'm looking at an image at 18:02
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And there's no date of 6 April, 1995, on this that
24 I can see.
25 MR. HARMON: I can't see a date either.
1 Q. So, Witness, what are you referring to when you say -- when you
2 see a date? Perhaps you can assist us.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Novakovic, I can help by seeing
4 the reflection in the glass. I would like to instruct Mr. Novakovic not
5 to look at the document on one screen, but rather at the image on another
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see a photo on this
8 left-hand screen.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can -- could the Court Officer please -- court
10 usher please make sure that the witness is looking at the picture that we
11 are all looking at.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
14 MR. HARMON:
15 Q. Sir, are you able to identify that patch that is on the man's
16 beret in the image that is before you?
17 A. I cannot, Mr. Harmon. I've never seen a beret bearing such a
19 MR. HARMON: Could we -- Ms. Javier, could you go to the next
20 image, please.
21 Q. Okay. You have another image in front of you, sir, it is at
22 00:18:03.0. Can you identify the patch that is on this man's beret?
23 A. I cannot, Mr. Harmon. This is part of a footage that was
24 broadcast five or six years ago, and the images on the TV screen were
25 unclear, making it impossible to make out the insignia or patches, and
1 that was broadcast ten years after Operation Pauk. But I can tell you
2 with certainty that such people did not wear such patches during the
3 Operation Pauk. On the photograph that we discussed, Mr. Medic wore a
4 hat, camouflage hat. This is not from that operation. What I saw on TV
5 after the war, this refers to footage of them before they went into some
6 other combat action. In April 1995 in the area that we discussed, those
7 people did not wear such berets. This is the truth.
8 Q. Sir, the image that is on this man's beret is of a scorpion. You
9 can see clearly a tail at the top of the image and you can see at the
10 bottom two sets of claws. It's a scorpion, isn't it, yes or no?
11 A. Mr. Harmon, this resembles a swan in my perception.
12 Q. Okay. Well, we have -- we'll go to the next image if we could.
13 MR. HARMON: Could we have -- let me just have the -- we'll go to
14 a different item.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. -- carry on.
16 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would ask that this image be admitted
17 for purposes of impeachment.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: How does it impeach?
19 MR. HARMON: In -- it is our submission, Your Honour, that the
20 image depicts a scorpion --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: It may very well be, but the witness says he --
22 he'd never had it at the time when he was a commander. He never saw
23 anybody wearing this at the time when he was a commander. He's not
24 denying that this may not be a scorpion.
25 MR. HARMON: Let's go to the next image, then, Your Honour, if we
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, no.
3 MR. HARMON: Then --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen to my point.
5 MR. HARMON: I heard Your Honour and I accept Your Honour's point
6 and perhaps I could defer -- I don't want to talk over Your Honour. I'm
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right. I'm trying to say this -- yes, we can
9 see it's a scorpion. If this soldier wore this uniform with this patch
10 on his head at the time of Pauk, Operation Pauk, that would impeach the
11 witness. But if the witness says they didn't wear this kind of thing at
12 the time, I saw it ten years after the war, how does that impeach him?
13 MR. HARMON: Could I go to the next image, Your Honour, and
14 perhaps that will enlighten us?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You go to the next one.
16 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
17 Actually, if we can go to XN391 and have that on the monitor.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: XN315, what happens to it?
19 MR. HARMON: Nothing at the moment, Your Honour. I'm not seeking
20 its in admission at the moment, but if I could have XN391 on the monitor.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I guess it's still for the same purpose of
23 MR. HARMON: It is, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
25 Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not object to its being shown to
2 the witness for purposes of impeachment.
3 MR. HARMON:
4 Q. Witness, the person in the far right of this image is you, isn't
6 Did you hear my question, Witness? Is that you in the far right
7 of this image?
8 A. That's me, Mr. Harmon.
9 Q. Was that image shot during Operation Pauk?
10 A. It was, Mr. Harmon.
11 Q. Who is the man wearing the black beret who is to your immediate
13 A. I cannot claim unequivocally because of the blurred photo.
14 Colonel Bulat is the person with his back to us. I can recognise him by
15 his stature.
16 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that -- [Microphone not activated]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I ask that this image be -- I'm not
19 going to seek its admission now. I would like to play just a small
20 portion of the video from which this was taken. It might be able to
21 assist the witness in his identification of the man wearing the black
22 beret. That would be XN315. If we could play that image, Your Honour --
23 this part of XN315.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. HARMON:
1 Q. Did that assist you, sir, in identifying the man wearing the
3 A. It's possible that Mr. Medic, who we discussed today, was that
4 person. But I cannot claim beyond doubt, but it's possible that it is
5 Mr. Medic, the man we referred to today.
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 MR. HARMON: This video, Your Honour, is at 00:51:37.
8 Q. Can you -- does that assist you in identifying what the logo was
9 on his beret -- on his black beret?
10 A. It does not assist me. I do not recall at all what was on that
11 black beret. I'm telling you that his men either wore hats or nothing
12 at -- on their heads. I never paid any attention to any such patches or
13 head-gear or insignia. But absolutely I deny that anybody referred to
14 them by that name. You won't find that anywhere.
15 MR. HARMON: Just a minute, Your Honour. I just want to find
16 another portion of this film.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. HARMON:
19 Q. Sir, I want to show you --
20 MR. HARMON: I want to defer admission on this document and just
21 show the witness one other image. If we could play a portion of XN315,
22 starting at 00:00:56.4, if we could play that.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. HARMON: I've stopped this image at 00:01:07.1.
25 Q. And you see a man in the -- in a kind of a greenish jacket
1 wearing a hat and his hands are in his pocket. Who is that, sir?
2 A. I don't know, Mr. Harmon.
3 Q. Okay. Well, let's see if we can continue to play this and you
4 might be able to recognise him. I want you to also pay attention to the
5 people he is addressing in -- they're wearing black, they're in a
6 standing formation, they have berets, and the beret has an insignia on
8 [Video-clip played]
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see these men,
10 Mr. Harmon, and I'm certain that this photograph was not taken in the
11 period we've been referring to or, indeed, in the place we've been
12 referring to.
13 MR. HARMON:
14 Q. Okay. Who was the man who had his hands in his pocket and he had
15 a green jacket on and he was addressing the men in the black? Wasn't
16 that Mr. Medic?
17 A. I cannot be certain because the photograph is blurred. I can
18 only make assumptions, but I don't want to do that.
19 Q. Okay. Let's -- we'll continue to play this. It might be of
20 assistance to you, and we'll just focus on the flag that is in the right
21 side of this image at 00:01:27.2. You recognise what is in that image?
22 A. You mean here in front?
23 Q. Yes, sir. There's a flag that is next to the -- between the
24 second and third men from the right side of the image. You can see a
25 flag with a yellowish image. Do you know what that is? Isn't that a
2 A. If it is, then how come it has two heads? I'm not saying it
3 isn't, but how can a scorpion have two tails, one going left, one right?
4 And what does that have to do with the presence of a unit at a certain
5 time in a certain place? I'm saying that this photograph wasn't taken in
6 the area we've been referring to or at the time we've been referring to.
7 MR. HARMON: Can you continue, Ms. Javier, and play this.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. HARMON: Stop the image right there.
10 Q. Who is that gentleman? Are you able to identify the man in the
11 camouflage uniform at 00:02:38.3?
12 A. Absolutely not.
13 Q. And the man to his left with the moustache?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. I see a man in a camouflage uniform and one to his right, but I
17 can't see anybody to his left.
18 Q. There is a man at the right side of the image who is to the left
19 of the man in the camouflage uniform, and he has a moustache. Can you
20 identify that man?
21 A. No.
22 Q. We'll continue to play this film.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Q. Sir, we stopped at film at 00:04:29.6. Do you recognise these
2 A. I saw these clergymen in a footage that was broadcast as part of
3 a film about the Skorpions five or six years ago on Serbian TV. I cannot
4 confirm or deny what was said on TV then, but they were reporting about
5 their preparations before their departure to Eastern Bosnia in the summer
6 of 1995. That's what was said then, that they were blessed by these
7 clergymen before their departure. That's what was said about them. I
8 saw this on television a few years ago several times. And now you are
9 again reproducing this footage from Serbian TV. This was said to portray
10 their preparations before departure to Eastern Bosnia. I don't know the
11 persons that you have just shown me nor do I know these clergymen.
12 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we have stopped this film at timer --
13 I've already indicated the timer number, so I have no further -- we're
14 not going to view this film any further. I'm going to seek admission of
15 these items, but not at the moment until I can lay a better foundation
16 for them. So I've concluded my examination of this witness on this
17 particular point and I thank you, Your Honours, for permitting me to
18 re-open my cross-examination.
19 Q. Thank you, General.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
21 Mr. Lukic.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General, once more.
24 A. Good morning to you, too, sir.
25 Q. I hope this is the last time we meet on these premises. I'm
1 going to ask you a few questions about the topics that Mr. Harmon dealt
2 with. I'll be very concrete and I'll try to elicit short answers. We'll
3 see whether they will be easy too.
4 A. We'll try to achieve that.
5 Q. On the 1st of August [as interpreted], at the beginning of your
6 examination-in-chief, on the transcript page 13318, showed you extracts
7 from a personnel file and asked you whether in that file there is a
8 remark that at the time you were not an active-duty serviceman of the VJ,
9 you remember. And then you said that you had shown me -- that I had
10 shown you a document when your service in the VJ finished. Let us see
11 Prosecution Exhibit P1783.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you said on the 1st of August, did you mean
13 to say the 31st of August?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Harmon began his
15 examination on the 1st of September. Let me check.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: September, not August? Okay.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
18 Q. Mr. Novakovic, what can you say us about this document? Do you
19 know it? Is this your signature? And what is it about?
20 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic. This document is my statement that at the time
21 of the withdrawal of the JNA from the territory of the Serbian Krajina, I
22 do not agree to going to Serbia
23 territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
24 Q. It's dated 8 May 1992
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. After giving the statement, were you a member of the VJ?
2 A. No, I was not a member of the VJ in the sense of serving in the
3 VJ, but I still had the status of an officer of the VJ, as a former
4 member of the JNA.
5 Q. Based on that status, did you enjoy certain status-related
6 privileges as a member of the VJ?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. In that context Mr. Harmon asked you, upon which you explained
9 what you've just said, that you were no longer serving in the VJ from the
10 moment you signed this statement. Now let me ask you a general question.
11 What kind of relations are there in -- when you serve in a military?
12 A. They're the relations of subordination, military hierarchy, and
13 singleness of command.
14 Q. Did these relations exist when you were in the SVK?
15 A. Yes, naturally.
16 Q. Were there such relations in service under the law for those
17 serving in the VJ?
18 A. Yes, of course.
19 Q. While you were a member of the SVK, did you have a relationship
20 of subordination with anybody from the VJ?
21 A. No, because I was in the political leadership --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his last
23 sentence. Just a moment.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Lukic.
25 Mr. Novakovic, the witness is -- I beg your pardon, the
1 interpreter would like you to repeat your last answer, please. You said:
2 "No, because I was in the political leadership --" and then the
3 interpreter didn't hear the rest. What did you say. Okay. Tell us what
4 you said.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said the following:
6 No, because I was subordinated to the Supreme Defence Council of the
7 Republic of Serbian
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 Yes, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Novakovic, I must caution both myself and you to go a bit
12 slower for the sake of the interpreters. We must go back to that rhythm
13 of ours.
14 A. All right.
15 Q. Did General Perisic or his predecessor, General Zivota Panic,
16 transfer to you or were they able to transfer to you any authority to be
17 in -- to have a position of authority in the SVK?
18 A. No.
19 Q. I'll move on to a different topic. Mr. Harmon showed you a
20 document by means of which in the year 2000 you contacted the personnel
21 administration of the VJ and requested to be paid out the unpaid annual
22 leave benefits for the years 1993, 1994, and 1995. My question is the
23 following: In 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995 while you were in the war, did
24 it matter to you to get compensation for annual leave not requested?
25 A. No, I did -- I never even thought of taking annual leave.
1 Q. Did you know whether or not your officer colleagues from the SVK
2 at that time minded not being paid benefit for annual leave not requested
3 during the war?
4 A. No, but they --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please once again repeat his
6 last answer.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry, I beg your pardon, gentlemen.
8 Mr. Lukic and Mr. Novakovic, can you please slow down and allow
9 each other time to answer. We understand that you speak the same
10 language, but when one of you finishes talking, there is interpretation
11 still taking place.
12 Now, Mr. Novakovic, the question was:
13 "Did you know whether or not your officer colleagues from the SVK
14 at that time minded not being paid benefits for annual leave not
15 requested during the war?"
16 And then you had just started answering:
17 "No, but they --"
18 And then we couldn't hear what you said. Can you please repeat
19 your answer to that question.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but sometimes they requested
21 leave to take care of some important private and family-related issues,
22 with that leave counting against their annual leave.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Who would they turn to to be granted this sort of leave?
2 A. Each one of them would turn to their commander.
3 Q. Of which army?
4 A. Of the SVK, that's the army we're talking about.
5 Q. Mr. Harmon also showed parts of the discussion at the collegium
6 of the Chief of Staff of the VJ about what he called the Bulat case about
7 those inquiries, as it was mentioned within the General Staff of the VJ.
8 Let me ask you the following: We saw that statement that you signed in
9 Banja Luka about wishing to commence service in the VJ in September 1995.
10 Do you remember giving testimony to that effect and to what Mrksic said
11 to you?
12 A. That statement says that I agree to be appointed to the VJ
13 pursuant to a decision of the General Staff.
14 Q. Correct. Do you know whether Mr. Bulat also made such a
15 statement, was this something that was required of him too?
16 A. I cannot confirm that because Colonel Bulat wasn't in Banja Luka
17 with us then.
18 Q. Did the SVK in its structure have military disciplinary courts?
19 A. While I was commander, no.
20 Q. And the Law on the Serbian Army of the Krajina, does it envisage
21 the existence of military disciplinary courts, do you remember?
22 A. The existence of military disciplinary courts and military
23 criminal courts was envisaged; however, we didn't have personnel to
24 establish them.
25 Q. I'm specifically interested in military disciplinary courts,
1 whether they were established within units or commands, but you don't
2 know what -- how that developed once you were replaced, at least that is
3 how I understand your previous answer.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know where you get that understanding,
5 Mr. Lukic. Nothing developed during -- when he was commander. He says
6 he didn't have these disciplinary -- military disciplinary courts.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, yes.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. Now what are you talking about what
9 developed and what replaced what?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My question was whether the witness
11 knew that after his replacement from the position of commander of the SVK
12 military disciplinary courts started functioning in the SVK, that was my
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Phrase it that way. That's much better.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. When, according to you, did the SVK cease to exist as an
18 organised army?
19 A. On the 10th of August, 1995.
20 Q. Thank you. I'll move on to another topic that has to do with
21 Mr. Harmon's examination. On the same day Mr. Harmon asked you about
22 your housing odyssey to call it that, and you said that your request for
23 housing to be provided to you was only solved - which year was it?
24 A. 1998 I think -- 1997 or 1998.
25 Q. All right. What I would like to know is the following: You said
1 that in the Raska garrison it was found, although you had never been
2 there serving in the military; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. My question will be this: Do you recall when you filed your
5 request for housing? When was it that you lodged it?
6 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic. I filed it in May 1992, when the JNA was
7 withdrawing from the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
8 Q. Do you know when the personnel centres were established or -- in
9 other words, was the 40th Personnel Centre in function at the time when
10 you lodged your housing request?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. Let's broach another subject.
13 Mr. Harmon showed you documents - now I'm referring to your
14 examination-in-chief - concerning contacts you had with Mr. Nambiar and
15 Mr. Goulding. He showed you UN documents, you remember, concerning their
16 reports, focusing on the special units of police. His thesis, my learned
17 friend's thesis, was that in those reports those units were labelled as
18 paramilitary and that the UN was critical of them. My question to you
19 is: Let's be precise, did you while you were commander of the 80th
20 Brigade of special units of police, did you have immediate and personal
21 contacts with both Mr. Nambiar and Mr. Goulding?
22 A. With Mr. Nambiar, yes, directly; and with respect to contacts
23 with Mr. Goulding, I was related of those contacts by the person who took
24 part in those contacts and conversations.
25 Q. What's the name of that person?
1 A. Milos Zivkovic, the late Milos Zivkovic.
2 Q. Did General Nambiar in talking to you criticise the existence of
3 special units of police and sought measures in respect of those?
4 A. No, he did not, Mr. Lukic.
5 Q. Did any representative of the political leadership of the RSK
6 relate any information to you that representatives of the UN wanted those
7 special units of police to be disbanded?
8 A. No, Mr. Lukic.
9 Q. I'm moving to another subject. Mr. Harmon showed you an entry
10 from General Mladic's diary relating to the 8th of November, 1993,
11 meeting, a meeting attended by representatives of both political and
12 military leaderships, both of the FRY, the Republika Srpska, and Republic
13 of Serbian Krajina. And he showed you an entry relating to the words of
14 Minister Rakic and tried to elicit your comment, and you discussed the
15 financial and materiel condition of the SVK at the time. That would be
16 page 17 of LiveNote of the 31st of August [as interpreted]. You stated
17 that you started wearing people out with your constant requests?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Could you please explain who did you wear out and why did you
20 repeat your requests time and again?
21 A. I started wearing General Perisic and Mr. Milosevic out and all
22 those representatives of Serbia
23 the representatives of the government and leadership of the RSK. And for
24 that reason, I stopped attending those co-ordination of tasks meetings at
25 the General Staff of the VJ because I saw no purpose being served by my
2 Q. I'm moving on to another subject, but pertaining to the same
3 portion of Mr. Harmon's cross-questioning -- cross-examination, when it
4 came to fuel or oil, in connection with that you mentioned the Pancevo
5 refinery. As you explained, oil products would be obtained from them on
6 the basis of the arrangements that you explained. First of all, under
7 whose jurisdiction was the oil refinery of Pancevo at the time?
8 A. The Government of Serbia
9 Q. Did the VJ have -- hold any authority over the Pancevo oil
10 refinery or oil industry at large?
11 A. This was never so and it is difficult for me to presume that
12 something of the sort would be possible.
13 Q. You were also shown by Mr. Harmon an entry concerning the sending
14 of 3- to 5.000 members of the VRS to Lika, purporting to be the words of
15 President Milosevic, and you replied to the best of your knowledge that
16 two battalions or up to 1.000 men were sent. Do you recall saying that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it known to you whether anybody else -- anybody was brought to
19 account or castigated that only 1.000 and not 3- to 5.000 men were sent
20 after this conversation with President Milosevic?
21 A. Nobody was held responsible, neither did I resent that because I
22 simply knew that they did not have the men available.
23 Q. Let us deal with a number of issues concerning your replies
24 concerning the documents on the Drina War Plan. Answering
25 Mr. Harmon - and that would be page 31 of LiveNote of the 2nd of
1 December [as interpreted] - you said that with respect to the new Drina
2 Plan, unit war plans remained intact because, as you said, this next step
3 for the implementation of that plan never materialised. Do you recall
4 that answer?
5 A. Yes, I do recall that answer.
6 Q. Could you please tell us here, as a military expert, what would
7 be the definition of co-ordinated action by units?
8 A. Co-ordinated action is aligning the actions against the target in
9 time and place and by type of manoeuvre.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, please.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Units which are carrying out a co-ordinating action, irrespective
14 of which army or several armies at the time, what would be their mutual
16 A. Co-ordinated action is organised among units of the same level.
17 The term "co-ordinated action," Mr. Lukic, is referring to combat
18 actions. This is something I dealt with in my post-grad studies and this
19 is a very precise military term.
20 Q. For units to act in co-ordinated fashion, what is necessary to
21 have an operation carried out in co-ordinated action in terms of
22 preparations for that?
23 A. On the basis of the basic idea of the commander, a co-ordinated
24 action plan is drafted, you go out in the field, commander performs a
25 reconnaissance, and then the plan is tied to a certain area, facilities,
1 lines on the ground.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Could you please define the term "co-ordinated action," and that
5 is in the transcript, 47, row 7. Could you please repeat your definition
6 of co-ordinated action. There are certain discrepancy in the
8 A. It is alignment of actions by target, time, place, and manoeuvre.
9 These are my exact words.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show on the screen
11 Exhibit P215. That would be the Drina
12 please, to show us page 9 in B/C/S and 9 in English. I'm mistaken with
13 respect to both pages. Please, can we go back one page in B/C/S for a
14 moment. Let's keep the English page here and then we will turn the page.
15 Q. Please take a look at the paragraph headed:
16 "Task of the armed forces.
17 "1. Yugoslav Army."
18 And let's go -- let's turn both pages in B/C/S and English.
19 There is a portion of a sentence that I'd like to comment -- or elicit
20 comment from the witness about.
21 Your Honours, the relevant portion in English is the large
22 paragraph starting with: "Upon completing mobilisation ..."
23 General, I'm going to read the beginning of the sentence on the
24 preceding page, which continues on this page.
25 "Upon completing the mobilisation, the main forces are used to
1 organise the defence from the area of Hungary, Macedonia in the depth of
2 the territory, and Albania
3 co-ordinated action with SVK to dominate the line
4 Josipovic-Mikanovci-Samac and use VRS to destroy the enemy forces in the
6 of the Neretva river at the Mostar-Neum section."
7 I believe I have trouble with the English translation, but let me
8 ask you this: This is the task for the VJ pursuant to this Drina Plan,
9 and it says -- said that in offensive actions they have to co-ordinate
10 their actions with SVK to -- for that to be possible, what needs to be
11 done beforehand to have this joint action by the VJ and the SVK?
12 A. What is necessary is insert into the war plans of the SVK and the
13 VJ in the next step of the preparations of war plans, first of all, to
14 plan and draw on the map the tasks of units and prepare a separate
15 co-ordinated action or joint action plan, and then go out in the field
16 with unit commanders that are supposed to act in that designated area and
17 precise everything out on the ground, and that would be the
18 implementation of a plan as a plan.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go, please, to the next page
20 in B/C/S and the next page in English.
21 Your Honours, I'm going to read out the first sentence of this
22 paragraph where mention of SVK is made.
23 Q. "SVK -- the SVK with VRS reinforcements and in co-ordination
24 action with POd and special VJ forces ..." et cetera, et cetera?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I've been trying to follow what you're
1 reading. I can't see. Which paragraph is that one which starts with the
2 VJ or SVK?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that the English translation
4 doesn't match what I read out in Serbian. It's the first paragraph under
5 the title: "The Serbian Army of the Krajina."
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the third paragraph in both
7 Serbian and English.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. I will read out the paragraph once more in Serbian -- or maybe
10 you, General, read out this first paragraph first because of the
12 A. "The Serbian Army of the Krajina with VRS reinforcements and in
13 co-ordinated action with forward detachments of special VJ forces is to
14 prevent any surprises ..."
15 Q. Special forces of the VJ are mentioned here. General, do you
16 know whether at any time anybody contacted you about the implementation
17 of what is said in this document about the co-ordinated action of your
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. One other brief comment. On the same page in the B/C/S version
21 and in the following page of the English version, the use of
22 anti-aircraft defence and air force is mentioned, and I'll read out the
23 first sentence:
24 "With RV and PVO forces in co-ordinated action with ground forces
25 PVO," that is, anti-aircraft defence, "organised a joint anti-aircraft
1 system with the focus on the protection of the armed forces, features,
2 and most significant administrative and military and industrial centres
3 in the RS, RSK, and FRY."
4 Was a single anti-aircraft defence system ever established?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. General, all these facts that you have spoken about with regard
7 to the implementation of this plan, what did all this tell you, that
8 nobody contacted you from the --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Lukic please repeat his last
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, you are requested to please repeat your
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.
14 Q. General, given the fact that you didn't contact anybody in the VJ
15 or the VRS concerning the subsequent development of this plan, what did
16 that tell you at the time?
17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
19 MR. HARMON: I'm going to object. I'm not sure I understand the
20 question. Whether he didn't contact anybody. I'm not sure what that --
21 I'm not sure I don't comprehend the question.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed it doesn't make much sense couched like
23 that. The previous question, which now Mr. Lukic has departed from, was
24 given that -- well, General, all these facts that you have spoken about
25 with regards to the implementation of this plan, what did all this tell
1 you that nobody contacted you from -- and then you didn't finish that
2 sentence. Now, I don't know whether you want the witness to tell you
3 what it tells him that he did not contact anybody. What can tell him
4 anything is that nobody contacted him.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I wanted to hear
6 from the witness.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Except that the two questions are different, sir.
8 The first question was -- yeah -- I think that is what --
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Q. General, what did it mean to you, I mean the fact that you
11 weren't in contact from anybody -- with anybody from the VJ and the VRS
12 concerning the further implementation of this Drina Plan?
13 A. That the Drina Plan would never be implemented.
14 Q. When did you arrive at that conclusion? And I'm referring to
15 November 1993 when the Drina Plan was drafted.
16 A. Even then I thought that it would be very difficult to implement
17 the Drina
18 Q. I'm asking you when you realised that the Drina Plan would never
19 be implemented. When did you arrive at that conclusion?
20 A. At the moment when the commanders - the officers in charge in the
21 VJ and in the VRS - refused -- or rather, failed to arrive from the areas
22 where according to that plan their units should have been and where the
23 tasks of those units should have been elaborated in more detail. It was
25 Q. If this document was adopted in November 1993 -- November 1993
1 anyway, when did you expect them to arrive to do that?
2 A. All documents of the war plan at all levels of planning should
3 have been completed within two or three weeks. That is a realistic
4 dead-line for making such a plan at all levels.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Is this a convenient moment for the
6 break, Your Honours? I'll have a few questions for the witness left,
7 because I'm about to move on to another topic and only a few minutes are
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at half past
10 12.00. Court adjourned.
11 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see P2923 on our
15 screens, please.
16 Q. It's a document that Mr. Harmon showed to us during his
17 examination. It's your order dated 28 August 1993, where it is mentioned
18 that you ordered for -- ordered that action against targets in Osijek
19 Vinkovci be planned and in case of artillery action also against Zagreb
20 Do you remember that Mr. Harmon put it to you that Zagreb is singled out
21 and not mentioned with the rest of the towns that constitute military
22 targets? So let me first ask you: What does "planning" mean and what
23 was the purpose of this order?
24 A. For the artillery, planning means determining all three
25 co-ordinates of a particular target, not as an object in space but I mean
1 a particular target. Then decide on a type of weapons and the type of
2 fire to be opened.
3 Q. Do you know which targets in the city of Zagreb were selected to
4 be taken action against?
5 A. I don't remember precisely for any of these towns. They may have
6 been targets that are the headquarters of the highest state authorities
7 in charge of the army or targets of the police or military forces used
8 against us.
9 Q. Thank you. I have finished with this document.
10 Yesterday Mr. Harmon showed or put to you the allegations in the
11 court decision from 1995 by a Croatian court sentencing you to 20 years
12 of imprisonment because of the shelling of some towns in Croatia. Here's
13 my question to you: Apart from the occasion when you gave an interview
14 to the OTP of this Tribunal, did you ever meet any representatives of the
15 OTP; and if so, where and when?
16 A. I had several encounters with investigators of the ICTY even at
17 the time when they were banned from entering Serbia, as I said. To the
18 best of my recollection, in September 2001 in the building used by the
19 Tribunal in Belgrade Mr. Savo Strbac and I met Ms. Carla del Ponte. Her
20 head of office was there, I believe her name was -- she was later held
21 responsible for contempt of court here --
22 Q. That doesn't matter. But what was the topic of the conversation?
23 A. Ms. Carla del Ponte asked --
24 MR. HARMON: Objection, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
1 MR. HARMON: Objection, Your Honour. I'm not sure how this
2 relates to my cross-examination, a meeting with Carla del Ponte.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, that's the answer that was given. That was
4 not the question put.
5 MR. HARMON: Yes, so I object to that continued questioning on
6 this because it has no bearing on my cross-examination. The question
7 that starts out is -- relates to a question I asked in respect of charges
8 that -- a conviction against General Novakovic that was entered in a
9 Croatian court in 1995. We have now drifted to a conversation that
10 General Novakovic had with Carla del Ponte. It is not relevant, as far
11 as I can see, nor is it particularly responsive to the question, nor,
12 Your Honour, does it relate -- have any relationship to my
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that it relates to the
16 cross-examination and has a direct bearing on what Mr. Harmon put to the
17 witness concerning his conviction by Croatian court. That is why I want
18 to ask him what information he received from the OTP concerning these
19 particular matters. Since Mr. Harmon tried to impeach the witness by
20 asking these questions, I want to ask the witness what information he had
21 concerning what he was charged with. And it is -- I believe that is
22 relevant for the Trial Chamber.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: That last sentence you make is a question you can
24 put to the witness. The rest is -- has nothing to do with the crimes
25 in -- alleged in Croatia
1 the alleged crimes, but the conversation with members of the OTP -- he
2 was not charged by the members of this OTP in Croatia. And I guess
3 that's why Mr. Harmon is standing.
4 It would be perfectly correct to ask him what information he
5 received from anybody about the allegations in Croatia, and if he
6 received any information from Carla del Ponte so be it. But you can't
7 introduce the topic by directing him to OTP.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. General, you heard what kind of answer we're trying to elicit
10 from you, namely, what kind of information you received concerning the
11 charges Mr. Harmon spoke to you about and in -- and the link between you
12 and those charges.
13 A. I spoke directly to Ms. del Ponte about what the Croats, the
14 Croatian judiciary, charges me with and about the information they passed
15 on to the OTP of this Tribunal. And I said to her if she considers me
16 responsible for anything, that I would be willing to go to The Hague
17 immediately because I have no reason to hide nor did I do anything wrong.
18 Ms. del Ponte said to me that she doesn't have anything against me,
19 anything to charge me with.
20 Q. Thank you. I'll refer to the questions asked to you today by
21 Mr. Harmon.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see what was admitted
23 today as Exhibit P2927.
24 Q. Mr. Harmon showed you this today. It's entitled a regular combat
25 report which you sent to certain addressees, among others to the Chief of
1 the General Staff of the VJ. It is dated 11 May 1995, as you see in the
2 letterhead --
3 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Your Honour, I think this is the problem
4 with this document. It is dated the -- there are two dates, one date in
5 the Serbian-language version and one date in the English version. So I
6 believe Mr. Lukic pointed out that discrepancy earlier.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. Obviously it's been
8 uploaded in different versions. I would like to ask my learned
9 colleague, the version that he showed to the witness is the one dated the
10 3rd of May, 1995.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the version in English, but the thing is
13 that the B/C/S is dated differently.
14 MR. HARMON: I think I can assist in this matter, Your Honour.
15 If we could have B/C/S version -- B/C/S language page 2 of XN -- I'm
16 sorry, P2927 --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 2927.
18 MR. HARMON: -- if we could have B/C/S page 2, that will resolve
19 the dilemma.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, that's fine. The B/C/S is dated the 11th.
21 The English is dated the 3rd. Is it 3rd now? It was 11th just now a few
22 minutes ago.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 MR. HARMON: They have been reconciled now, the two exhibits,
25 Your Honour, on the monitor. They're both the 3rd of May.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But how did that date of the 11th change?
2 MR. HARMON: I can't say that. I believe that the exhibit that
3 was put on that showed the 11th of May was a different page in a larger
4 document. I can only speculate.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
6 Go on, Mr. ...
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am not absolutely satisfied with the
9 explanation. Both these pages purport to be first pages of a document.
10 That's why they've got a date on them and a heading. Either -- if this
11 one dated the 3rd of May is the original of which the English version is
12 a translation, then the one dated the 11th should then be - what is the
13 word? - what is the opposite of uploading? Must be offloaded from --
14 must be offloaded because then it -- I suspect that is a different
15 exhibit completely, and I don't think it has been tendered. It came in
16 by mistake. The intention was to tender the one dated the 3rd, but we
17 were given something wrong. So that one must come off.
18 MR. HARMON: I agree, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let it be offloaded.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. You may proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Because that is the document that the
23 witness testified about.
24 Q. So, General, now we have in front of us a document dated the 3rd
25 of May, 1995. I'm going to ask you the same question as a couple of
1 minutes ago. What does this date trigger memory of, what associations
2 you have with respect to this date and the days around it?
3 A. A Croatian offensive in the area of Western Slavonia was under
4 way in those days.
5 Q. Let's take a look at D164 and have it brought on the screen.
6 What was the name of that operation, General?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which operation?
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said the Croatian
9 offensive, that would be page 58, line 25.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The code-name is Flash or Blesak
11 and it's still known under that sobriquet.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You're going to see the map that you already saw and on which you
14 indicated certain things for our benefit. When it does appear, I would
15 like to ask you to draw two things on that map. But let us wait for a
16 second for it to appear.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we could zoom in on the map,
19 Q. And with the usher's help, Witness, I'm going to ask you to
20 indicate two things on this map.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If you, usher, would please assist
22 the General, to assist General Novakovic, although I see that the General
23 has become very skilful.
24 Q. Could you please indicate on this map the areas where you were
25 and where Operation Pauk on the 3rd of May, 1995, while it unfolded.
1 A. On the spot, sir, indicated by 1.
2 Q. And please indicate where the Croatian army aggression labelled
3 Flash was carried out in that period.
4 A. That would be the area marked by the number 2.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will move to tender this map into
6 evidence before it disappears.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
8 given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The map shall be given -- the
10 marked portion of the map shall be given Exhibit D00444. Thank you, Your
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
13 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. General, Operation Flash, this operation of the Croatian army and
16 the developments of that time in the territory of the Republic of Serbian
17 Krajina, did they have any implications on the security of the FRY and
18 was there any need to inform Chief of General Staff of the VJ of such
20 A. Of course, such an operation of -- at such large scale in the
21 vicinity would be something that not only the Chief of Staff of the VJ
22 but the Chief of Staff of the Hungarian army would have to be informed
24 Q. Thank you. Let's take a look at a document which has been XN32,
25 the designation given by the OTP to that document.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: XN320 or 320.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is not a document which is on
3 the --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon -- Mr. Lukic, when was XN320 tendered?
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That document, XN320, has not been
6 tendered. The OTP --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, but when did the OTP put it on the screen? I
8 don't have it.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] They did not upload it. I referred
10 to it because the OTP introduced that document into the e-court. That
11 document has not been shown to the Bench so far.
12 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, this -- I just wanted to confirm, this
13 document was not shown to the witness and I don't know what its
14 relationship is to the cross-examination. And perhaps Mr. Lukic would be
15 in a position to inform us how this relates to the cross-examination of
16 the witness.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like then to ask
18 Mr. Novakovic to step out of the courtroom for me to be able to do so.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Novakovic, will you please give us a bit of a
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As you can see, by its form it is the
24 same type of document as P2527 but the date is the 1st of July, 1995,
25 whereby Pauk command delivers this document exclusively to
1 Mr. Jovica Stanisic. It's not been addressed to the General Staff of the
2 VJ, and I would like to refute Mr. Harmon's thesis using this document in
3 respect of the periods of reporting and delivery of reports, whereby
4 Mr. Harmon tried to prove to Mr. Novakovic that he did deliver regular
5 reports to Mr. Stanisic -- sorry, Mr. Perisic, and this does follow from
6 cross-examination directly.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
8 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm not sure that this refutes the
9 testimony, but I'll leave it to Mr. Lukic to determine. The witness said
10 he delivered reports, regular combat reports, once a week to
11 General Perisic. That was his evidence as I recall it, so I'm not sure
12 this refutes that proposition.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, that was the evidence. But the proposition
14 put to him was that he made regular reports.
15 MR. HARMON: No, I agree, Your Honour. I asked him if he made --
16 how often he made regular combat report submissions to General Perisic
17 and my recollection is he said once a week. This is a regular combat
18 report. It doesn't mean that -- I don't want to say more. It's up to --
19 let's proceed, Your Honour. I have no objection.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
21 Call the witness, please.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Please take a look at this document, General, please, and then
1 I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. Do you recognise your
2 signature here?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. This purports to be, as it's entitled, regular combat report by
5 Pauk command dated the 1st of July, 1995, and in this case it is
6 addressed to the attention of Mr. J. Stanisic. When Mr. Harmon asked you
7 in his cross-examination about the regularity of delivering those combat
8 reports to General Perisic, you said that as far as you could remember
9 you provided one such report once a week or from time to time. My
10 question in this period why didn't you or did you continue to deliver
11 reports to the General Staff of the VJ, namely, General Perisic, during
12 that period?
13 A. As far as my memory serves me, Mr. Lukic, throughout the duration
14 of this operation we delivered reports to most of the people, as
15 specified earlier when those reports were called up. I don't see this as
16 a special case.
17 Q. Thank you. Well, I'm going to ask you --
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I propose that we tender this
19 document into evidence, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
21 given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this shall be admitted as
23 Exhibit D00445.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Harmon, towards the end of his cross-examination, asked you a
3 number of questions about Mr. Ulemek, Mr. Medic, and asked you about
4 their participation in Operation Pauk. You remember he showed you some
5 footage dated 6th of April, 1995, in that area.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please bring on the screen
7 P2783. I'm not sure whether this document is still under seal. The seal
8 may have been removed, but if not then we'll have to move into private
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Registrar, are you able to guide us?
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
13 [Private session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. These are excerpts from General Mladic's diary. The first one
18 that was disclosed to us about one and a half years ago and which the OTP
19 introduced into their evidence towards the end of their case. Could we
20 please turn to B/C/S page 10 and English page 10, please.
21 MR. HARMON: Excuse me.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
23 MR. HARMON: Could Mr. Lukic inform me whether this is a
24 reflection of a meeting that Mr. -- General Novakovic attended.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. I do not see that it has been
1 stated that General Novakovic attended that meeting. I'd like to ask
2 General Novakovic about something else in relation with the relationship
3 Ulemek and Medic had. I cannot see from this entry whether
4 General Novakovic attended that meeting at all.
5 MR. HARMON: Well, perhaps -- Your Honour, perhaps a question
6 could be put to the General before he's shown a document. If the
7 question is: What is the relationship between Ulemek and somebody else,
8 if he knows? That's a question that can be put to him without the use of
9 a document.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not want to dwell on these
11 issues. I would like to ask a specific question which follows from the
12 allegations in this diary which relate to Mr. Novakovic in the period
13 while Ulemek was present in the territory, as shown to the General by
14 Mr. Harmon. I'm going to discuss an entry in this diary which has direct
15 relationship with Mr. Harmon's questions put to the General.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You know, there is a practice that has taken place
17 in this Tribunal which makes life very difficult. According to my
18 understanding, before a document is shown to a witness you've got to lay
19 a foundation for that document. In this Tribunal documents are just put
20 on and then say: Okay, fine, I'm going to ask a question. And by the
21 time the question is asked, the very purpose of not showing the document
22 before the foundation is laid is undermined and it becomes water under
23 the bridge because now the witness has seen the document anyway. And
24 this exchange that you have now had with Mr. Harmon confuses me.
25 First of all, Mr. Harmon did not object to anything. He just
1 asked: Can I be told whether the witness attended this meeting. Now,
2 that's not an objection. That's not any reason why a question should not
3 be put. You gave an explanation of why you want to put the document to
4 the witness. I still don't understand why, you know. And it would be
5 helpful indeed, as Mr. Harmon suggests, if questions can be put to the
6 witness. Let's hear what they are, let's hear what the relevance is, and
7 if in the course of asking questions you either want to jog the memory of
8 the witness or you want to develop the point on your questions, then you
9 can show him the paper.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] When he asked General Novakovic the
11 question and asked about his departure to Belgrade with Ulemek --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ask those questions to the witness, deal with
13 those questions, develop a foundation for showing the witness the
14 document, Mr. Lukic. You see, you're explaining to us. We will follow
15 you if you deal with the questions that were asked in cross-examination
16 and you put them to the witness. We will understand what you are doing.
17 And if you want to show him a document, either in confirmation or in --
18 refuting what you are dealing with, then we will understand why the
19 document is coming on the screen. But when you don't show him the paper
20 before you've asked the questions -- am I being difficult?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I'll tell you what you people make difficult
23 for me. I don't know how to rule in what you're talking about. As I
24 say, there is no objection; there is just a question. And now the
25 following statements that Mr. Harmon made after asking about whether the
1 witness attended this meeting suggest an objection. He hasn't said so
2 expressly, but he shows dissatisfaction with you showing the witness this
3 document, you know, before you have told us why you want to show him a
4 document and before the Court can determine whether in fact you are
5 entitled to show him the document or not, depending on the relevance of
6 your questions.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
8 Q. General, I've just received instructions and in line with these
9 instructions I'm about to ask you the following question. In the spring
10 of 1995 what kind of relationship was there in place between
11 Jovica Stanisic and you as the commander of Pauk?
12 A. I believe that he was not fully satisfied that I was in the
13 position I was in.
14 Q. According to what you know, why did Mr. Stanisic dislike the fact
15 that you were in that position?
16 A. I believe that the basic reason was that I tried to think with my
17 own head and take decisions based on what I hear from the people around
18 me. And the gentleman who's been mentioned here, Mr. Ulemek, to my mind
19 was in a position for which he was not fit. And I stated as much.
20 Q. Please let us now look at this document. On the first page we
21 see reference to a meeting that took place on the 30th of June, 1995
22 the General Staff of the VJ with President Milosevic. And then in the
23 second sentence we see:
24 "I called FA," although I see on the English translation that
25 this -- these initials are already expanded, but let me ask you anyway,
1 General. Who did Mladic refer to when he -- with these initials, FA?
2 A. To Fikret Abdic.
3 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, so the record is clear, the question
4 that I understood was who did Mladic refer to and Mladic is not obviously
5 mentioned but President Milosevic is mentioned. And so I think the
6 record is inaccurate.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. -- did anybody refer to Mladic,
8 Mr. Harmon? I thought Mr. --
9 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour, at line 23.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you. Who did
11 Mladic refer to when he -- you meant Milosevic?
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I meant Mladic when he wrote the
13 initials FA because this is Mladic's handwriting, and I don't believe
14 that Milosevic actually uttered "FA." So I said "Mladic" because this is
15 Mladic's diary. Sorry for the confusion.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now we are with you, Mr. Lukic. Thank you so
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see pages 13 in both
19 B/C/S and English.
20 Q. It says here:
21 "JS: My men should be given maximum consideration when an
22 operation is planned.
23 "I don't trust Mile Novakovic, at least in terms of
24 expertise ..."
25 General, at that time did you have information to this effect
1 that Jovica Stanisic doesn't trust you as commander or didn't trust your
2 activities in the Pauk operation with regard to Ulemek?
3 A. I felt that their relations weren't very close. That's what I
4 knew. That Mr. Stanisic doubts my expertise, well that is something I
5 didn't know.
6 Q. General, you won't believe me, but I put it to you anyway: I'm
7 done with my examination. Thank you once more.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
9 Mr. -- oh, okay.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Novakovic, I also put it to you that you'll be
12 surprised that I'm telling you that we are done with your testimony. We
13 are so grateful you came here and testified before this Tribunal. You
14 have been here for a long time and we thank you for your co-operation
15 with the Tribunal. You are now excused. You may stand down and travel
16 well back home.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow, Mr. President, I
18 would like to thank you personally and the Trial Chamber for a correct
19 and humane attitude, and that is the memory I carry home with me. Thank
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon, Mr. Lukic.
1 May the Chamber please move into open session.
2 Sorry, we should have excused the witness in open session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will have the next witness ready
8 to appear in court on Monday and testify in accordance with the schedule.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then can we just deal with a minor housekeeping
10 matter. Mr. Lukic, are you able to give an estimation of how much longer
11 the Defence case is going to be?
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I know that's something of interest
13 to everybody, including myself. I would like to say immediately that it
14 is the Defence's wish to finish as soon as possible. I cannot be very
15 precise, but what I can say is that we are about to shorten our list of
16 witnesses. And after the testimony of Mr. Novakovic, we will again
17 eliminate some witnesses. I cannot be more precise than that because
18 there are now some technical matters that must be resolved with regards
19 to some important witnesses. I believe that we will know within two or
20 three weeks, for which period we already have a list of witnesses. And
21 then I will be in a position to be more precise as to the intended end of
22 the Defence case.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let me put my question slightly differently
24 to you. From a planning point of view, the Chamber would wish to have in
25 its hands at least closing briefs before we go for the winter recess.
1 Can you promise that we will -- we can achieve that?
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I cannot, as much as I would like to.
3 It is my desire to reach that goal, though.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we -- can the Chamber urge the parties,
5 including the Prosecution, that we work towards that goal?
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will certainly honour your request
7 and do whatever is in my power to meet that -- to reach that objective.
8 But although I don't want to go into great lengths, but I would like to
9 illustrate some of the problems the Defence is up against so this fits
10 into this topic that you have just broached.
11 We are still working on some matters so we don't have additional
12 matters that we don't have -- don't yet have a complete picture about.
13 But in order for me to be more specific, we would have to go into private
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 13525-13526 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 We stand adjourned to Monday morning, 9.00, Courtroom II. Court
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.20 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of
10 September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.