1 Wednesday, 8 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Mr. Registrar, good morning to you too and could you please
8 call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. Good morning, Your
10 Honours. Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom. This is
11 case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have the appearances
14 for the day, starting with the Prosecution.
15 MR. THOMAS: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
16 everybody in and around the courtroom. Carmela Javier, April Carter, and
17 Barney Thomas for the Prosecution.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the Defence.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning to all. Tina Drolec, Oonagh
20 O'Connor, Boris Zorko, Chad Mair, Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf
21 of Mr. Perisic.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 And good morning to you, Mr. Kadijevic.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind you that you are still bound by the
1 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the
2 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
3 Madam Carter.
4 MS. CARTER: May it please the Court.
5 WITNESS: RADOJICA KADIJEVIC [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Cross-examination by Ms. Carter:
8 Q. Good morning, sir.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. My name is April Carter, and I'm here on behalf of the
11 Prosecution and I have some questions to ask you about your testimony.
12 The first topic I would like to discover is in relation to the
13 special-purpose industry. I want to understand the organisations and the
14 facilities involved. Let's take for example, Pretis. If Pretis were to
15 want to establish a new line of materiels, what procedure would it go
16 through in order to take it from the idea to the actual production?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly switch off unnecessary microphones.
18 Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First let's say that Pretis is a
20 special-purpose industry in the Republika Srpska and it has nothing
21 whatsoever to do with the special-purpose industry in the Republic of
23 MS. CARTER:
24 Q. Can you tell me, what testing grounds were available in the
25 former Yugoslavia
1 A. In the former Yugoslavia
2 institution with its own capacities and there were also three testing
3 centres, the first one for land army, the second one for air force, and
4 the navy testing centre for the navy.
5 Q. Can you identify by name what those testing facilities were?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly switch off unnecessary microphones,
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did tell you their names but they
9 had their abbreviations as well. Would you be interested in those?
10 MS. CARTER:
11 Q. Sir, can you tell me what Nikinci is?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Carter. I thought you were still
13 dealing with the names of the companies.
14 MS. CARTER: I am, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the witness asked you whether you want both
16 the names and the abbreviations.
17 MS. CARTER: Okay. I can certainly do it that way, Your Honour.
18 Q. Sir, can you give us the names --
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, just for a moment. With regard to
20 Judge Moloto's focus, because of some of the distinctions that exist and
21 some of the confusions that we've been having the past couple of days,
22 are you taking the position that the testing centres and companies are
23 the same? Because Judge Moloto's question was dealing with the names of
24 companies and you indicated you were dealing with names of companies
25 whereas previously you've been talking about names of testing facilities.
1 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith. I'm actually referring to
2 the facilities themselves.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good enough. Let's get the names.
4 MS. CARTER:
5 Q. Can you please tell me the the names of those facilities?
6 A. Yes, I can. The land army had its testing facility and its name
7 was abbreviated as TOC. The air force had its own testing facility in
8 Batajnica. And when it comes to the navy, there was the navy testing
9 facility. Those three were institutions that were dealing with the
10 testing of equipment, both for domestically-produced equipment as well as
11 for the equipment that came from imports.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Kadijevic, what is the name of the navy
13 testing facility?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The abbreviation was MOC, M-O-C.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Now you've given us
16 abbreviations. Give us the full names of all the facilities that you
17 have given us acronyms of.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The full names for those three
19 testing centre are as follows: The Technical Testing Centre of the Land
20 Army, the Air Force Testing Centre, and the Navy Testing Centre.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Madam Carter.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, for purposes of the transcript and
23 clarification, since he has just given us full names, I would suggest
24 that we have initial caps, otherwise it doesn't look as if it's a name
25 but rather a description of a place in the transcript.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Stenographer, if you can take note of that.
2 Thank you. Madam Carter.
3 MS. CARTER:
4 Q. Sir, do you know of a facility by the name of Nikinci,
6 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that facility. I was there a number of
7 times. That's a technical testing facility for the testing of the land
8 army equipment. It is some 80 kilometres away from Belgrade.
9 Q. Who possesses this testing centre?
10 A. We could not talk about the ownership of the facility but rather
11 of the organisational structure of the entire army of Yugoslavia
12 testing centre was part of the General Staff structure and it was
13 affiliated with the assistant Chief of the General Staff for the land
14 army. The assistant chief was its superior body.
15 Q. Now, you've indicated that this facility was used for testing of
16 land army equipment. Was it used exclusively for the use of the testing
17 of VJ land army equipment?
18 A. No. It was also used for some equipment belonging to the air
19 force that could not be tested elsewhere.
20 Q. Are you aware of it being used for the testing of any materiels
21 coming from other special-purpose facilities such as Pretis?
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, only because you have been previously
23 discussing the former Yugoslavia
24 which this question is being asked, I think it would be of assistance to
25 the witness and to the Chamber.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
2 MS. CARTER:
3 Q. Sir, are you aware between 1993 and 1995 the Nikinci Technical
4 Testing Centre being used to test equipment -- or excuse me, test
5 materiels from Pretis?
6 A. As far as I know, that centre was also used by Pretis. As well
7 as all the entire special-purpose industry of the Federal Republic
9 its equipment internally at testing centres before it is delivered to the
10 customer. If the result of the testing is positive, then the customer
11 issues an order for the final testing of the equipment.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to move on to another topic. You
13 had testified yesterday -- or actually, on Monday, that the VJ and the
14 General Staff had no competencies in relation to export of military
15 equipment; is that correct?
16 A. Precisely so.
17 Q. Can you tell me, during 1993 to 1995 was it common for members of
18 the MOD to meet with the leadership of special-purpose industries to
19 explore their capabilities or capacities?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: MOD of which country, ma'am?
21 MS. CARTER:
22 Q. During 1993 to 1995 was it common for members of the FRY MOD to
23 meet with leadership of special-purpose industries to explore their
24 capabilities or capacities?
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Vague with regard to the issue of "common."
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
2 MS. CARTER: I can rephrase the question.
3 Q. During 1993 to 1995, did members of the FRY MOD meet with
4 leadership of the special-purpose industries to explore their
5 capabilities or capacities?
6 A. Yes. One of the principal tasks of the research and development
7 administration is to ensure capacities for the production of materiel and
8 equipment. It also invested funds for the adoption and development of
9 new technologies, and that's why it had very close co-operation with all
10 the companies and very frequent contacts with them. We had regular
11 frequent meetings with all the state bodies, and when I say that, I mean
12 other ministries as well as the managers of the special-purpose
13 industries. At those meetings we analysed the situation, the contracts
14 that were signed, and we also considered plans for the following year.
15 That was a customary procedure.
16 Q. How often would these meetings take place?
17 A. It depended on the problem. There were directors with whom we
18 would meet every fortnight. Whenever they had a problem, they wanted to
19 consult with the Ministry of Defence. While I was chief of the research
20 and development administration, I had to see them, I had to consider
21 their proposals, and we had to discuss solutions. When we couldn't do
22 that at my level, we went to the Ministry of Defence or to the ministry
23 of the industry of either Serbia
24 So I would meet with the respective ministers or the ministers
25 would come to our annual meetings in order to look at the possibilities
1 of exercising all the necessary tasks to meet the needs of the state
3 Q. When you were meeting with these directors, did you meet with the
4 directors exclusively in Serbia
5 directors in the RS and the RSK as well?
6 A. I did not have meetings with directors from RS and RSK as I did
7 with the special-purpose production industries in Serbia. That was my
8 duty, and I believe that I met with the director of Pretis on one or two
9 occasions. His name was Milorad Motika, and I believe that we met at his
10 request on a couple of occasions.
11 Q. Would General Perisic have authority to explore special-purpose
12 production capabilities and capacities with these directors?
13 A. General Perisic did not have the staff structure within the
14 General Staff that would be dealing either with the planning or research
15 and development, therefore he did not need to meet up with the directors
16 of special-purpose industries. And when we are talking about the
17 meetings with directors, I hosted Mr. Perisic on two occasions when he
18 toured some of the capacities. I was his escort. He wanted to look at
19 the capabilities of those industries because the directors wanted us to
20 sign contracts with them and the position of the government was that they
21 were not capable of producing much; however, they showcased their
22 products in their own facilities and that visit lasted about three hours.
23 Q. You indicated that this occurred on two occasions. Can you tell
24 us when those occasions were?
25 A. Again I have my usual problem with the years. I know that on the
1 first occasion we went to Crvena Zastava and Kragujevac and the Krusevac
2 base, Miloja Zakic, and the second time we went to the partisan factory
3 in Uzice and the Cacak base Sloboda, and that could have been in 1997 or
4 1998 but I would sooner say that it was in 1997.
5 Q. Would you have expected General Perisic to be involved in such
6 matters in 1994?
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Relevance as to Mr. Kadijevic's expectations.
8 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the witness has indicated that there
9 was a clear bright line between the special-purpose factories falling
10 under the MOD and the VJ's abilities within them, so what I'm trying to
11 explore is what Mr. Perisic, during 1993 and 1995, had the capabilities
12 for and the expectations of.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure I understand that last part of
16 your answer, ma'am, whether Mr. Perisic during 1993 to 1995 had the
17 capabilities for and the expectations of.
18 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, indeed the witness has indicated that
19 the -- that Mr. Perisic had no competencies whatsoever within the
20 special-purpose industry, that barring the two times in which he served
21 as host to Mr. Perisic in 1997 and 1998, that Mr. Perisic appears to have
22 had no other contact. So I'm trying to explore that with the witness.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
24 MS. CARTER: Thank you, sir.
25 Q. Sir, would you have had expectation --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute. Go ahead, Madam Carter.
2 MS. CARTER:
3 Q. In 1994 are you aware of Mr. Perisic touring any special-purpose
5 A. I was not aware of that.
6 Q. Given the structures that you've set out with relation to the
7 special-purpose industries and the MOD as well as the VJ, would
8 Mr. Perisic have had the competencies to go and tour and explore the
9 special-purpose industry in 1994?
10 A. The entire General Staff including the Chief of the General
11 Staff, Mr. Perisic, did not have any competencies with regard to the
12 research, development, and production of military equipment. No
13 competencies whatsoever. Those things are within the remit of the
14 Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
15 Q. Are you aware of General Mladic's competencies in relation to the
16 special-purpose industries?
17 A. I don't know what special-purpose industries you mean. Are you
18 referring to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or Republika Srpska?
20 Q. We'll take those separately. Are you aware of General Mladic's
21 competencies in relation to those special-purpose industries found in
22 Republika Srpska?
23 A. I assume that in Republika Srpska he had a certain degree of
24 influence due to his authority. He did influence the special-purpose
25 industry in Republika Srpska but in formal terms it [Realtime transcript
1 read in error "he"] was the minister of defence that was in charge of the
2 special-purpose in Republika Srpska just as its counter-part was in
3 charge of the same type of industry in the Federal Republic
5 Q. And the second part of the question, are you aware of his
6 competencies in relation to special-purpose industries found in the
7 former Yugoslavia
8 A. General Mladic did not have absolutely any competencies with
9 regard to the special-purpose industries in the FRY.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, on page 10, line 24, I believe there
11 after the words "in formal terms" the word should be "it" and not "he"
12 and I think we can probably agree upon that because it's recognised that
13 General Mladic was not the minister of defence. I think that's probably
14 just a transcription error.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would agree with that. Madam Carter, I don't
16 know what you think.
17 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour, we would agree with the Defence.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you. Yes, Madam
20 MS. CARTER:
21 Q. Sir, are you familiar with Krusik in relation to the
22 special-purpose industries?
23 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that.
24 Q. Can you please tell me what it is?
25 A. That's a capacity or a holding company which consisted of several
1 companies, and one of them, one of the most important one was the Krusik
2 special-purpose industry. That company produced the programme of mortars
3 and anti-tank guided missiles of the Maljutka type.
4 Q. Are you familiar with a gentleman by the name of Director Savic?
5 A. Yes. I knew him when he was still director and later on when he
6 was the assistant federal minister for the economy.
7 Q. What was he director of?
8 A. He was a director of the entire Krusik company. And since the
9 special-purpose industry was the most important part and the ownership of
10 the rest of the companies when the transformation started, he was the
11 number one man in that company, in Krusik.
12 Q. You indicated he later became an assistant federal minister for
13 the economy. Can you tell me which entity he was an assistant federal
14 minister for?
15 A. The federal government appointed him assistant federal minister
16 for the economy because he was an experienced businessman who had for a
17 number of years led a very successful enterprise.
18 Q. I'll try to be more clear: Which country was he an assistant
19 federal minister for?
20 A. He could have been assistant federal minister only in the Federal
21 Republic of Yugoslavia
22 Q. Where was Krusik located?
23 A. Krusik is to the south-west of Belgrade, some 80 kilometres from
25 Q. As you are giving the directions in relation to Belgrade, can I
1 assume that it's in the former -- excuse me, in Serbia?
2 A. Yes, in Serbia
3 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at this time I would seek leave to use
4 a new document, XN422. This document is one of the extracts from the
5 Mladic diaries. We have seen those extracts previously and Mr. Thomas
6 and Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith spoke yesterday and there was an indication that
7 there was an agreement, if the Court were to allow us to use such a
8 document, that it would be tendered as an MFI document pending the
9 decision of Your Honours in relation to the exhibits subject to the --
10 the motion for reconsideration of the Trial Chamber's order filed on 12
11 August 2010.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is in most of the terms correct, but there's
14 only one issue which presents itself, which is if Ms. Carter could
15 identify the purpose for which she seeks leave to use this particular
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
18 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, we'd seek to use this document both for
19 impeachment as well as for the truth of the contents.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that there may need to be a bit of
22 argument with regard to this. The argument will directly deal with some
23 of the witness's testimony. It should be relatively brief, however, I
24 don't think it would be appropriate for him necessarily to be in the room
25 during the period of time that argument is being held, so ...
1 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, if I could intervene at this moment.
2 This, I thought, had been resolved. I think it can be resolved if I can
3 have the opportunity to discuss this with my learned friends. I seek a
4 brief adjournment for that purpose.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would concur. Rather than there being anything
6 where there's any confusion, I think that if we could have but a moment
7 here, we may be able -- if Mr. Thomas warrants that he believes there can
8 be resolution, I'm usually relatively confident that that is the case.
9 We're hitting probably 85, 90 per cent. So if we could have a brief
10 adjournment. I'm sure it wouldn't be any more than five minutes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court adjourned. We'll take a break and come back
12 when the parties call us.
13 --- Break taken at 9.34 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 9.48 a.m.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas, I see you are on your feet,
16 Mr. Guy-Smith is on his feet.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I was just going to say I'd like to thank -- I
18 think both parties would like to thank the Chamber for the opportunity to
19 have had the discussion we've just had. Although it didn't clarify
20 everything that we hoped to be able to clarify I think it clarified a
21 sufficient amount that it leaves us in a position where we can have a
22 crisp record on this issue because of the variety of legal matters that
23 surround the whole question of what we generically call fresh evidence
24 and its purpose. And I now will cede the microphone to Mr. Thomas, who
25 is on his feet, or to Ms. Carter.
1 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at this time I would like to lay a full
2 foundation for the request to use new evidence before the Chamber. The
3 document that we are seeking to use is XN422, which is an extract of the
4 Mladic diaries. As the Court is aware, we only received the Mladic
5 diaries on 29 March of 2010.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, may I interrupt you a little bit?
7 Do we usually discuss them in open session?
8 MS. CARTER: Clarification has been made and, yes, we initially
9 were using them in closed session or, excuse me, in private session; we
10 are now able to speak about them in public session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Fine.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is my understanding at this time.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. I'm in your hands.
14 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour. As the Court is aware, we
15 received these documents on 29 March of 2010. In relation to the extract
16 that we are seeking to tender before the Court today, it was disclosed to
17 the Defence on 5 May 2010
18 and disclosed on 11 May 2010 in English. As this document has been
19 received by the Defence for over four months it was given in a language
20 that both the defendant as well as many of the staff of the Defence team
21 do understand on 5 May of 2010. We do believe that we have overcome any
22 prejudice argument that the Defence may give.
23 In relation to the document itself, we do believe that it is
24 relevant, it goes directly to issues in relation to the special-purpose
25 industry, it goes to the issues of Mr. Perisic's competencies in relation
1 to that, as well as his contacts with that. So we would argue that it
2 would be a relevant document to the Court's consideration, and because it
3 is relevant we do believe it would in the interest of justice to be able
4 to provide the Court with a full picture of the special-purpose industry,
5 and so we would seek to use the new evidence here today.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And just to close up the circle, Madam Carter, you
7 reiterate that you are -- the purpose for tendering it is both for
8 impeachment and both for the truthfulness of the contents.
9 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you for your last question, Your Honour,
12 with regard to the purpose for the tendering of this document, which
13 Ms. Carter has indicated is both for impeachment and for the truthfulness
14 of the contents. Obviously in discussions we've had previously with
15 regard to the issue of fresh evidence, I think there's an appreciation
16 and understanding that there are two distinct standards that exist, the
17 standard for impeachment being a lower standard than the standard that
18 one would apply and the Chamber would apply with regard to the
19 Prosecution essentially re-opening their case through cross-examination.
20 With regard to the issue of impeachment, I would suggest that
21 Ms. Carter's position concerning impeachment is ill-advised. I take that
22 position because of the testimony that was given at page 10, line 2, in
23 which Ms. Carter asked the following question:
24 "In 1994 are you aware of Mr. Perisic touring any special-purpose
1 The answer is:
2 "I was not aware of that."
3 If Mr. Kadijevic is now shown a document which establishes
4 something different, that certainly wouldn't impeach him. It might give
5 him information which he did not have before but it would not be
6 impeachment. And I think it's important that we recognise that
7 impeachment is not just putting up contradictory evidence but, rather,
8 it's putting up evidence that in fact puts at issue the veracity of the
9 assertion made by the witness. If the witness was not aware of the visit
10 or Mr. Perisic's involvement, then it wouldn't be impeachment for that
12 She has not indicated any other purpose of impeachment and in the
13 failure to articulate specific grounds for impeachment, I would suggest,
14 at least to the extent that I've taken the analysis thus far, that the
15 application fails on those grounds by virtue of the fact it doesn't meet
16 the definition.
17 With regard to the second issue, which is being offered to prove
18 the truth of the matter, of the contents, Ms. Carter has failed once
19 again to meet the standard. The standard is one of exceptional
20 circumstances. There's been no showing of exceptional circumstances with
21 regard to the use of this document or this part of the Mladic diary at
22 this time with this witness.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, is it not common knowledge between
24 the parties and the Chamber that the Mladic diaries were obtained by both
25 the Prosecution and the Defence after the close of the Prosecution case?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And was it not so that in fact there was an
3 agreement to postpone the case for about a month, or even twice for that
4 matter, to allow both parties to go through the Mladic documents to find
5 out which of them either party might use?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is also an accurate statement.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. Now, if in those Mladic diaries the
8 Prosecution finds documents that were not accessible to them during their
9 case in chief, wouldn't they then be allowed to use them precisely for
10 that reason? Doesn't that meet the standard?
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, I do not believe that --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why --
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do not believe that if, as you've framed the
14 question, Your Honour, that if in those Mladic diaries the Prosecution
15 find documents that were not accessible to them during their case in
16 chief, then they should be allowed to use them precisely for that reason
17 because that doesn't deal with the ultimate issue which is the factual
18 material that may exist within that document. And if that factual
19 material exists in other places and if that factual material is material
20 which is part and parcel of the Prosecution's case, then I don't believe
21 that would necessarily meet the standards of exceptional circumstances.
22 Just because something arrives which is new, does not in and of itself
23 make it necessarily an exceptional circumstance for purposes of this
24 particular analysis. For other analyses it may, but not for this
25 particular analysis.
1 We are talking about, thus far, special-purpose industry, that's
2 something that we've been talking about for two years. We've been
3 talking about testing facilities, that's something we've been talking
4 about for two years. We're talking about Mladic, he is certainly
5 somebody that we've been talking about for two years. We're dealing with
6 issues concerning supply of materials; those are all matters that are --
7 have been an active, vibrant, and continued part of the Prosecution's
8 case, and I don't think that just by asserting the conclusion one can
9 find solace in the explanation.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure I follow your argument but let
11 me say this to you: That indeed I agree with your assertions that all
12 these topics have been spoken about for the last two years and the
13 Prosecution has been seeking to prove these -- a certain position with
14 respect to these topics for the last two years. This witness is
15 testifying contrary to the position of the Prosecution. The Prosecution
16 has used whatever other evidence they have had to state their position,
17 and with respect to this witness, they seek to use this diary to endorse
18 their position. So, one, it is not a new thing, these are not new topics
19 to the Defence. These have been live issues between the parties for the
20 last two years. And now the Prosecution is meeting this witness who is
21 stating something contrary. And I take your point on the question of
22 impeachment that the fact that he says he didn't know doesn't mean it
23 didn't happen, therefore he could not be impeached by this document. But
24 I think in that event it is properly within the competency of the
25 Prosecution to say if you didn't know, sir, here is a document that says
1 he did do so, if he did do so - I don't know what the document is going
2 to say - and we can hear what he has got to say in response to that. To
3 that extent therefore, the document does not introduce fresh evidence in
4 fact because this has been a live issue for the last two years, as you've
5 rightly said.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand, I think, what your analysis is, I
7 think I understand your analysis, and I think therein lies a particular
8 problem. I'm going to walk away, just for a quick second, from the
10 If the issue in a case is whether or not the light was red or
11 green, a witness gets up on the stand who was present at the location at
12 the period of time when the issue comes up and is asked what question
13 [sic] was the light and the witness says I believe the light was a green
14 light. That's what I believe, that's what I was aware. Then there's
15 information that is shown to the witness that the light was red. Now,
16 that does not impeach that witness's -- that does not impeach that
17 witness's belief, and since it does not impeach that witness's belief,
18 the use of the evidence - which is the point - the use of the evidence to
19 prove the truth of the matter asserted therein becomes the issue.
20 When the propounding party says okay, here is a piece of evidence
21 that the shows that the light was a colour other than which you believed
22 it to be, that's the truth isn't it, the witness has no way of
23 intelligently responding to it, the witness has no way of commenting on
24 it outside of the confines of what their own knowledge is, and is being
25 offered by the propounding party to prove something. Therein lies the
1 rub. That's the problem.
2 If the evidence is being offered for some other purpose other
3 than to prove the truth of the matter asserted, then I would not be
4 standing on my feet with regard to that issue. I think on the
5 impeachment issue we are in agreement.
6 With regard to the second issue, what is the value of this
7 evidence? How do you value this evidence? Because ultimately what will
8 occur is this: At the conclusion of the case the Prosecution will argue
9 that this particular -- this particular document they seek to presently
10 introduce, XN422, proves whatever they claim it proves. That evidence
11 will be -- will have been given to you in the absence, in this situation,
12 of testimony from somebody who was in a position because they are unaware
13 of what is being discussed. That would be the vehicle that it comes to
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure where you are going with your
16 argument, Mr. Guy-Smith. I want to say to you, Madam Carter said she's
17 tendering this document for two purposes; for purposes of impeachment and
18 for purposes of the truthfulness of the content. You've put up your
19 argument on impeachment, which I thought made sense and -- unless I hear
20 the contrary from Madam Carter on that argument. And if she fails on
21 that argument then it goes in for the truthfulness of it, but then from
22 the point of view of the Prosecution, the Prosecution wants to put its
23 position to this witness and assert its position. From the point of view
24 of the truthfulness of the evidence, the Chamber will decide on it when
25 it writes the judgement whether to believe the document or to believe the
1 witness. That's where the perimeter ends. And in my view, I think the
2 very fact of the circumstances under which this document was obtained, be
3 it fresh evidence or not -- and I've indicated a little earlier that the
4 topics that are being discussed here are not fresh evidence, they have
5 been live issues between the parties for a long time, and you have said
6 so yourself on the record -- it would qualify to go in even for the
7 truthfulness of the content, whatever the Chamber will believe at the
8 end. That's not the issue at this point.
9 But having said that, Madam Carter, do you have anything to say
10 on this point before we rule?
11 MS. CARTER: Briefly, Your Honour. If the world was as
12 Mr. Guy-Smith has constructed and the only statement that was made by the
13 witness in relation to the special-purpose industry was that he was
14 unaware of this 1994 meeting, we would be in a much different position.
15 However, at page 8, line 13, I specifically asked:
16 "Would General Perisic have authority to explore special-purpose
17 production capabilities and capacities with directors?"
18 The witness responded:
19 "General Perisic did not have the staff structure within the
20 General Staff that would be dealing either with the planning or the
21 research and development, therefore he did not need to meet up with the
22 directors of special-purpose industries."
23 Thus the witness has made a blanket statement that I seek to
24 challenge. So I will argue that we are in a position in which he has set
25 up a proposition that I seek to impeach.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber rules that the objection -- I beg your
2 pardon, where are we now? The document may be used even for the purpose
3 of the truthfulness of the content.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
6 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour. I would now like to call up
7 XN422. There are two B/C/S possibilities; we would seek to use the Latin
8 transcript for the ease of the witness.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, it might be easier for Mr. Kadijevic
10 to view it in hard copy. I have it in hard copy in both Latin and in
11 Cyrillic. I'm happy to have this given to the usher so that Ms. Carter
12 can take a look at them.
13 MS. CARTER: The Prosecution has no objection to their use.
14 Q. Sir, what you have before you is an extract from a diary of
15 General Ratko Mladic. Before I ask you questions I just want to give you
16 an opportunity to have a look over the document.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Interpreters do not have
18 copies of the document.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
20 MS. CARTER: I do have a single copy that I can provide for the
21 interpreters and I'd also ask the Registrar if he could please scroll
22 through the pages of the document for the ease of the Court as well.
23 Your Honour, I do note the time. I'm not certain if Your Honours
24 want to take the break at its normal time or continue to review the
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, the Chamber does intend to take the break
2 right now. We'll break and come back at quarter to 11.00. Court
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, in order to perhaps be able to speed
5 things up, may I suggest that if the witness would like to have this
6 particular document with him, he could review it over the break so he is
7 in a position to take a look at it during that period of time.
8 MS. CARTER: I have no objection to such a course.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: So be it.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter. Well, thank you very much. I'm
13 sure we'll be proficient in B/C/S by the end of the session. We don't
14 have any English versions. We can look at it on the screen, Madam
15 Carter, don't worry.
16 MS. CARTER:
17 Q. General, I take it that you've had the opportunity to read
18 through the document XN422 in its entirety; is that correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Can you please tell me, are you aware of the Ministry of Defence
21 authorising General Perisic ever to meet with the Krusik RO?
22 A. Two things there: First of all, the visit to Krusik and to a
23 special-purpose industry facility is something that any minister can do
24 without prior announcement, notice, or permission because these are not
25 closed facilities, these are companies that exist within the economy of
2 facilities produce for the Ministry of Defence and only those have a
3 different regime. Sava Pustinja, assistant federal minister and chief of
4 the military economic factory, informed me about this meeting.
5 Q. It indicates that both General Perisic as well as General Mladic,
6 the two greatest generals, and their colleagues attended this meeting.
7 If you are aware of the meeting, do you know who the delegation was?
8 A. I know that there was this meeting and I told you that my
9 superior, Lieutenant-General Savo Pustinja, who was assistant minister of
10 defence and chief of the military economic sector, attended this meeting
11 and that after this meeting he briefly informed me about the content of
12 the discussions they had at the meeting. As for this --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Kadijevic, I'm sure you would like to go home
14 as soon as possible, and for that reason, I would like us to -- I would
15 like to ask you to please listen carefully to the question and answer
16 succinctly to the question. The question was: Do you know who the
17 delegation was? The correct answer should be yes, I know; no, I don't
18 know. One of the two. Don't give a long story. Thank you.
19 MS. CARTER:
20 Q. Sir, I'd asked you in the first session if you were aware of any
21 meetings that General Perisic would have had with the special-purpose
22 industry and you indicated at this time --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am sorry, Madam Carter. You asked a question to
24 which we really haven't had an answer. Do you know who the delegation
1 MS. CARTER:
2 Q. Outside of the minister that you've already named, are you aware
3 of any of the additional delegates?
4 A. No, I wasn't, because I never received any report.
5 Q. Sir, you seem to know in great detail about this meeting as we
6 sit here now.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I object to the characterisation of that.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
9 MS. CARTER: I'll rephrase.
10 Q. Sir, you indicate you now are aware of this meeting in 1994,
11 however, when you spoke earlier, you indicated you were only aware of
12 General Perisic attending the special-purpose industries in 1997 and
13 1998. What has jogged your memory to now recall 1994?
14 A. Nothing. Nothing jogged my memory. I told you that in 1997 he
15 went in my organisation. I organised such a meeting for Mr. Perisic. I
16 was the organiser and I met him at the factory. As for this meeting, I
17 didn't take part in it.
18 Q. As it's now evident that you are aware of this 1994 meeting, are
19 you aware of any other meetings that General Perisic attended at the
20 special-purpose industry, whether you were his host or somebody else?
21 A. I don't remember but I remember that I accompanied General
22 Pustinja when, together with General Mladic, we visited Crvena Zastava
24 Q. You indicated that you attending Crvena Zastava plant with
25 General Mladic. Was that one of the 1997 or 1998 meetings?
1 A. In 1994.
2 Q. So beyond the -- so now we have two meetings in 1994, a meeting
3 in 1997, and a meeting in 1998. Are there any others that you recall?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. I am sorry. Because of the nature of
5 what we are discussing if we could have a more particular question. So
6 we now have two meetings in 1994. We are putting a bunch of meetings
7 together. Are these meetings that he is aware of, meetings that he was
8 informed of, meetings he was involved in? Because they all are different
9 and require potentially different analysis and different questions that
10 could come on redirect, and rather than bunching everything together --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, I don't understand what you are
12 saying. What has been bunched together? The Prosecution has just
13 mentioned the number of meetings, not sort of saying they are all
14 similar. I don't know what your objection is here.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: The problem is, because as a reader, if I start
16 at line 21 I have the witness attending a meeting in 1994. If I'm the
17 reader and I continue with line 24, I now have him involved in four
18 meetings, which is not the state of the evidence.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, this witness has told us that he hosted
20 Mr. Perisic on a meeting that he organised to this company sometime in
21 whatever the year was. He has also told us that Mr. Mladic went there
22 sometime in 1994. He has told us of a meeting in 1997, I don't know
23 remember what in 1998. I think I will overrule you. If you have any
24 clarifications you want to make on these meetings you can do so on
25 re-examination. This is no point of objection. Continue Madam Carter.
1 MS. CARTER:
2 Q. Sir, during your proofing session, were you shown this document?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, in relation to the document, beginning on page 1 we have
5 General Perisic speaking where he says that:
6 "We have come to see what we can do to help the Republika Srpska
7 army and how."
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do apologise, what we have on page 1 are
9 notations from a third party as to what the third party claims General
10 Perisic says as opposed to what we have General Perisic saying. And I
11 take exception with the idea that now the document becomes
12 self-authenticating with regard to what my client says, because it is
13 not. These are notes from a third party. And if they were characterised
14 in that fashion, I have no objection. But to take the position this is
15 what he says is grossly inaccurate and there's no way to test it unless
16 the Prosecution is intending on bringing General Mladic to these
17 proceedings for purposes of testifying against Mr. Perisic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
19 MS. CARTER: I'm happy to rephrase.
20 Q. General, at page 1 a statement is attributed to General Perisic
21 in which he is to have said:
22 "We have come to see what we can do to help the Republika Srpska
23 army and how."
24 What authority did General Perisic have in order to help the
25 Republika Srpska army?
1 A. I will repeat --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Once again, I have a problem here. The problem
3 is with regard to what is attributed here. First of all, I think it's
4 important for us to have an understanding of whether or not the witness
5 knows whether or not General Perisic said this or didn't say this.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Overruled.
7 MS. CARTER:
8 Q. Sir. I'll repeat my question. Under what authority did General
9 Perisic have to help the Republika Srpska army?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'll interpose one final objection with
11 regard to this line of questioning because I think we are going to have
12 the same problem, which is that if it assumes facts not in evidence, the
13 facts not in evidence being that he did in fact make this statement, so
14 in the absence of having some understanding as to whether or not the
15 information contained in the diary as it is constituted is accurate,
16 assumptions that are being made, whether you are talking about factual or
17 legal conclusions to be drawn, are not only confusing, they are
18 misleading and they do not establish in any way the kind of record that
19 allows for the Defence to counter such evidence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can deal with that in re-examination. Madam
21 Carter, continue.
22 MS. CARTER:
23 Q. Sir --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's my problem, Your Honour, unfortunately I
25 can't --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've ruled.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- because I don't have --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have ruled.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate, and I have a record to make. I
5 have a record to make now, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you have problems with my ruling, go and
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I can't deal with it --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the recourse.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand but I can't deal with it on
11 re-examination. If I could deal with it on re-examination, I would.
12 Otherwise, I wouldn't be protesting as vigorously as I am right now.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, please take your seat. Please take
14 your seat.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I trust you understand that there's a problem we
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please take your seat, sir. If you have a
18 problem, you resolve the problem. If you have an objection, you raise an
19 objection. The Chamber doesn't rule on your problems. Please take your
20 seat. I have ruled. The Chamber has ruled, Mr. Guy-Smith, please take
21 your seat.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I will, and I did raise an objection.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, please take your seat. Thank you.
24 Madam Carter.
25 MS. CARTER:
1 Q. Sir, under what authority did General Perisic have to help the
2 Republika Srpska army?
3 A. I've already stated when it comes to the production of armament
4 and military equipment and procurement from those companies, General
5 Perisic didn't have absolutely --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Overlapping speakers] ... answer the question
7 specifically was under what authority, and since the witness is not
8 answering the question, that being the question of authority, I would --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, this is your witness and he answers
10 the way he answers. You can't object to the answer.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: We've been through this before, as a matter of
12 fact, Your Honour --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have been through this before indeed.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: And previously, as a matter of fact, on a number
15 of occasions when Mr. Harmon took exception to a witness's answer, you
16 upheld his objection.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, will you proceed, please.
18 Mr. Kadijevic, you were in the process of answering. Can you
19 please answer.
20 MS. CARTER:
21 Q. If you can continue your answer. Under whose authority would
22 General Perisic have to help the Republika Srpska army?
23 A. General Perisic worked based on the authorities that he had as a
24 Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia and the competencies
25 and tasks given to him by the Supreme Defence Council. I was not in a
1 position to know what instructions had the Supreme Defence Council given
2 to the Chief of Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia
3 worked, I was not privy to that kind of information.
4 Q. Sir, are you indicating that the Supreme Defence Council could
5 have authorised General Perisic to take on such matters?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: False speculation on his part.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not what is he indicating, Madam Carter.
8 He is just telling you the authorities that Mr. Perisic had so far as he
10 MS. CARTER: I'll move on.
11 Q. Sir, are you aware of under what authority General Perisic might
12 have been able to make a statement in relation to what can be delivered
13 with and without payment? Under whose authority would he be able to do
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think this question has been asked and answered,
16 Madam Carter. That is the authority under which he acted would be the
17 authority under which he would ask the question.
18 MS. CARTER: I'll move to page 4, please.
19 Q. Sir, on page 4 it indicates that in this meeting they "resolved
20 the matter for fuses for aerial bombs." Are you aware -- after the
21 discussions with your minister after this meeting, are you aware of any
22 authority that General Perisic would have been given in order to engage
23 in these kinds of resolutions?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, I think the question of authority
25 has been exhausted.
1 MS. CARTER: I'll move to the final page of the document. Excuse
2 me, it must be the preceding page. I apologise.
3 Q. Sir, some final comments are being attributed to General Perisic.
4 One of them is that:
5 "We will see how much we can set aside for you from our
7 Do you know what the term "reserves" means in this context?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You say the preceding page. Is that page 3?
9 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour, it's the page that's on the screen,
10 page 7.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it says "reserves," I believe
12 that these are war reserves at the disposal of the Army of Yugoslavia in
13 its depots, the reserves of materiel in this case.
14 MS. CARTER:
15 Q. In relation to the war reserves held by the VJ army -- excuse me,
16 VJ, was it within General Perisic's competence to be able to set aside
17 from his own reserves?
18 A. No. The federal government was the owner of those reserves.
19 Those reserves were property of the Republic of Yugoslavia
20 materiels and equipment were given to the Army of Yugoslavia for its use.
21 Q. Sir, are you aware of a decision that was taken in 1994 by the
22 Supreme Defence Council where General Perisic was authorised to supply
23 the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres with materiel?
24 A. I did see a document of that kind.
25 Q. Do you know what the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres are?
1 A. The 30th and the 40th Personnel Centres were established with a
2 view to maintain the list of those officers of the Army of Yugoslavia who
3 were referred or assigned to serve in the RS and VRS.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the RS and VRS. I am not sure whether you have
5 been correctly interpreted. The interpretation says these officers were
6 assigned to serve in the RS and VRS. We understand RS to stand for
7 Republika Srpska, VRS to stand for the Army of the Republika Srpska.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said the Army of Republika Srpska
9 and the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 Madam Carter.
12 MS. CARTER:
13 Q. You indicated that you saw a document to that effect. Sir, are
14 you indicating that you are aware that General Perisic had the authority
15 given to him by the SDC to supply the 30th and 40th Personnel Centre
16 members who were serving in the RS and the RSK; is that correct?
17 A. When the document was issued, I didn't see it. I was not aware
18 of its contents. I didn't know it existed. The Defence counsel told me
19 about that session of the Supreme Defence Council and showed me this
20 particular document for the first time.
21 Q. And speaking of seeing documents for the first time, can you tell
22 me, when is the first time that you saw the extract from the Mladic
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which extract, this one on the screen?
25 MS. CARTER: No, no, the previous -- yes, Your Honour, the one on
1 the screen.
2 Q. Can you tell me the first time that you saw that document?
3 A. I've not seen it before today.
4 MS. CARTER: If I can have one moment to consult with co-counsel.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MS. CARTER:
7 Q. Sir, you discussed yesterday and the day before the VTI, the
8 Military Technical Institute; is that the right acronym?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who is the employer of personnel serving in the VTI?
11 A. The VTI employed people pursuant to the openings to which people
12 applied. People who applied were citizens of the Federal Republic
14 experience with research and development, they were selected. Their
15 applications were approved and their employment was approved by the
16 Ministry of Defence. The Ministry of Defence wanted to curb, to limit
17 the number of the VTI employees.
18 MS. CARTER: Apologies, Your Honour, before I had moved on to
19 this new topic, I intended to tender Exhibit XN422 into evidence as an
20 MFI'd document -- not as MFI, Your Honour, simply as an admitted
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: And as I think the Chamber is clear, we object.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The document is admitted into
24 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
1 Exhibit P2928. Thank you.
2 MS. CARTER:
3 Q. Sir, moving back to the topic we just began, you are indicating
4 that the employer of the personnel serving in the VTI would be the
5 Ministry of Defence; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know of a workshop given the monicker VTI013?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the question again?
9 MS. CARTER: I would like to know if he is aware of a workshop
10 with the name VTI013.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that the VTI had a workshop
13 where they crafted models and prototypes of simpler pieces of equipment.
14 I'm not familiar with its number because each part of the institute had a
15 coded number which consisted of some letters and some figures, so I
16 wouldn't be able to confirm that the number that you just -- or the name
17 you just mentioned was the name or the designation of that particular
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I ask you again, Mr. Kadijevic; the answer would
20 have been, "I don't know."
21 MS. CARTER:
22 Q. Is it fair to assess that if a facility has VTI in its title,
23 however, it is still an MOD facility?
24 A. Yes, correct.
25 Q. Could General Perisic exercise any power over personnel serving
2 A. General Perisic could not exercise power over any of the
3 facilities of the VTI or the whole VTI as such.
4 Q. I'm actually referring to the personnel that are serving there.
5 Would General Perisic be able to exercise any power over the personnel
6 serving in the VTI?
7 A. No, he wasn't able to do that.
8 Q. Would he have the authority to deploy personnel serving there?
9 A. No, he did not have that authority. Only for the director of the
10 institute. The director had to be a general. At the Supreme Defence
11 Council meeting he could exert his influence in order to either have that
12 person approved by a decree or disapproved for the particular position.
13 MS. CARTER: I'd like to bring up P2721 on to the screen.
14 Your Honour, it's evident that this first page is going to be
15 extremely hard for the witness to read on the screen. I do have hard
16 copies of the document. I would indicate that on the final page -- on
17 the final page that I have copied, I have made a single highlighting.
18 Unfortunately, I don't have a secondary copy. I'm happy to provide this
19 to the witness at the discretion of the Defence, or if they have a clean
20 copy, I'm happy to provide that as well.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Show the Defence the document, ma'am.
22 MS. CARTER: If I can ask the court personnel to assist.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court Usher, will you please wait for the document
24 so that you can take it away.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't have on the record there is reaction of
2 the Defence.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry, I nodded my agreement.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: We would like to have it --
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understood.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Sorry, Madam Interpreter, you
7 were saying something? We spoke simultaneously and --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.
9 Interpreter's note: Interpreters do not have copies of the
10 document that is being used.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. We understand that. Can the
12 interpreters please be provided with a copy of the document.
13 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I'm asking the assistance of Ms. Javier
14 to get copies as soon as possible for the interpreters' booth.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Carter.
16 MS. CARTER:
17 Q. Sir, the document that you have before you indicates that it's
18 from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, it's delivered to
19 the Chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, that would be General
20 Perisic -- no, excuse me, that would be the chief that was Mr. Perisic's
21 predecessor; is that correct?
22 Actually, sir, could you do me a favour? The third line of the
23 document gives a date. Can you please tell me, in the original, what is
24 the date of this document?
25 A. 16 May 1995. That's the date.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. And on May 16th of 1995, who was --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's okay. Thank you, I apologise.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Madam Carter.
5 MS. CARTER: And for the benefit of the court staff, yes, I am
6 seeking the translation to 0647-6755, the first translation available in
8 Q. Sir, on 16 May 1995
9 the Yugoslav Army?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say 1995, ma'am?
11 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not 1993? The date of this document.
13 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, there appears to be a typo in the
14 document. The original indicates 1995.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We can't read it.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I can't read it either, and I would appreciate it
18 if Ms. Carter wouldn't testify.
19 MS. CARTER: With all due respect to Mr. Guy-Smith, I had the
20 witness confirm and read the date and I'm using the testimony of the
21 witness himself.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: The reason I said what I said is because as I'm
23 looking at the document in English, it says at the very beginning of the
24 document, it says 16/5/1993
25 date of 1995. So there are both dates contained in the document.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam -- we are looking at this date at its
2 largest. It's zoomed to a very huge figure. It could be either.
3 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, the witness actually has
4 a copy that has been copied where you can actually see the document much
5 better. I'm happy to ask, if the Court --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can confirm with the witness. Just ask the
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: We've now enlarged the document as much as we can
9 in the original and it looks like a 3. It looks like the date is
10 16.5.1993. And obviously Ms. Carter appreciates the importance of this
11 because if this is a document in 1993 in the month of May, then this is a
12 document that concerns a matter which would not have been within
13 Mr. Perisic's purview because he was not the Chief of the General Staff
14 at that time.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, the Chamber has just indicated that
16 it has also looked at it and that this number could be either a 5 or a 3.
17 It's indeterminable from looking at it and anybody can come and look at
18 it here or we can look at it elsewhere. This Chamber is not able to
19 determine, but if this witness is able to tell us, Madam Carter can ask
20 the question and it's up to the witness to tell us if he can see
21 anything, and if he can't, he can't. That's it.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I appreciate that. But I don't think that
23 this is a situation in which necessarily having the witness make a
24 determination of the date is appropriate. If he has no familiarity -- as
25 of yet we have not established that he has any familiarity with the
1 document, that he was the author of the document, that he has ever seen
2 the document before, that he has had any contact at all with this
3 document. So for at this point in time for him to do the same thing that
4 we are doing, I think would be inappropriate with regard to the date
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
7 MS. CARTER:
8 Q. General, can you please again read the third line of the document
9 that you have in your hand in regards to the date.
10 A. 16 May 1995.
11 MS. CARTER: Can the document that the witness is reading be
12 provided for the review of the Chamber and then brought back to the
13 witness. Actually, for transparency, if it can again be shown to
14 Mr. Guy-Smith before the witness.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. My eyes fail me. I'm still not in a
16 position to tell what the number is.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's appreciated, Mr. Guy-Smith. Join the club.
18 MS. CARTER:
19 Q. Sir, this document indicates that the VRS is seeking authority --
20 specifically, General Mladic is seeking authority from the Chief of
21 General Staff to engage Zoran Stojkovic from the VTI. Can you tell me,
22 are you aware of any circumstances where the VRS would make specific
23 request to the Chief of General Staff for VTI personnel beyond the one
24 that we are looking before us?
25 A. We had similar cases. There were requests to engage VTI experts,
1 if that's what was needed by the VRS army. After this request that was
2 received by the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, there would be a
3 letter to the Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
4 as the superior body to the VTI.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, just below to the bottom right of the seal
6 found on top of this document, there's some handwriting. Can you tell me
7 what that handwriting says?
8 A. It says "To be approved," and I believe that I can see the
9 initials of General Perisic.
10 Q. Thank you, sir.
11 MS. CARTER: Move to the second page of the document. And I
12 would seek translation 0647-6756.
13 Q. Sir, the second document is an approval by the General Staff in
14 relation to the engagement of Zoran Stojkovic. Is this approval
15 consistent with the note that you read on the first page approving this
17 A. Yes, this is the response that we saw on page 1, and this was
18 written by the office of the Chief of the General Staff to the Main Staff
19 of the Army of Republika Srpska.
20 MS. CARTER: If we can now move to the third page. And English
21 translation -- pardon. Hold one moment.
22 Q. Prior to moving on to the next document, sir, can you please tell
23 us, within the first line there's an indication that this document is
24 referring to a preceding document. Can you tell us the date of that
25 preceding document?
1 A. Are you referring to the heading or the first sentence in the
2 second document?
3 Q. In the second document, the paragraph begins, "In regards to your
4 request ..." and gives a telegram confidential number. Can you tell
5 me --
6 A. 16 May 1995 is the date.
7 Q. And can you tell me, does the confidential number given,
8 10/33-1-121, also correspond with the first page?
9 A. Yes; 10/33-1-121.
10 Q. Thank you, sir.
11 MS. CARTER: If we can now move to the third page, and
12 translation 0647-6757.
13 Q. Sir, this indicates that Zoran Stojkovic, who was on duty at
14 Military Technical Institute, would be temporarily sent to the 30th
15 Personnel Centre. If you are aware, can you tell me where this person
16 was being sent?
17 A. In order for this task to be carried out, Stojkovic was first
18 being sent to the 30th Personnel Centre, which is where officers were
19 sent within the Army of Yugoslavia in order to send them to the VRS to
20 serve there.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 MS. CARTER: If we can now move to the fourth page, doc ID
24 Q. Sir, can you tell me what Zoran Stojkovic was being sent to the
25 VRS to do?
1 A. He was temporarily engaged on training snipers in the VRS.
2 MS. CARTER: And if we can move to the following page, doc ID
4 Q. Sir, is the document before you a report from Zoran Stojkovic on
5 his time in the VRS?
6 A. Yes. This is a report signed by him.
7 Q. The VJ engaged this gentleman to carry out the psychological --
8 excuse me, sent him to the VRS in which he carried out psychological
9 preparation of these snipers, didn't he? Line 5.
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. He also trained them, and it "... proved to be more efficient in
12 the combat operations which resulted in the high combat morale, less
13 expenditure of ammunition, and a large number of hit soldiers on the
14 enemy side." Is that correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And moreover him just being a sniper trainer, he was also going
17 to train the instructors of other sniper trainers, wasn't he?
18 A. Yes, correct.
19 Q. And this was all being done in the VRS in the summer of 1995, was
20 it not?
21 A. Yes, correct.
22 MS. CARTER: If we can move to the following page. That would be
23 English translation 0647-6760.
24 Q. Sir, when these individuals were serving in the 30th and 40th
25 Personnel Centres they were VJ officers still, weren't they, or VJ
1 employees, weren't they?
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would object to plurality here since we are
3 looking at a particular document and we are dealing with a particular
4 individual. If she is referring to the individual that we've been
5 speaking about, Stojkovic, I don't have any objection to the question as
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
8 MS. CARTER: I intended to go broad than particular but I'm happy
9 to stick with the specific Mr. Stojkovic for this moment.
10 Q. Sir, when Mr. Stojkovic served in the Army of the Republika
11 Srpska, at that time he was still a VJ employee, was he not?
12 A. He worked in the Military Technical Institute where he had a
13 permanent status. He was sent to the 30th Personnel Centre, which was
14 basically subordinated to the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, on
15 a temporary basis. He was temporarily sent there.
16 Q. Sir, are you indicating that this gentleman was temporarily in
17 the chain of the VJ?
18 A. Yes, temporarily.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned earlier that this was not a
20 singular instance. How often did General Perisic engage members of the
21 VTI to serve in the VJ or the personnel centres?
22 A. I can't claim with certainty how many, but I know that I solved
23 problems together with the director of the Military Technical Institute
24 when a request would be sent from the Ministry of Defence of Republika
25 Srpska to the Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
1 We would not send them to the 30th Personnel Centre on those occasions.
2 Q. Sir, you were asked how often General Perisic sought VTI members
3 for temporary deployment in the VJ. Can you tell me how often that
5 A. I can't tell you that. This example here is a surprise to me
6 too. I was not aware of these cases. And you can see based on the
7 correspondence that these documents did not go via the Ministry of
9 Q. Are you aware of any other cases where deployment -- temporary
10 deployment in the VJ took place where the documents didn't circulate
11 through the MOD?
12 A. I am not aware because in principle we would use the experts from
13 the Military Technical Institute outside of that institution only on --
14 in exceptional cases.
15 Q. Sir, are you aware of any other instance beyond this gentleman
16 where a VTI member was temporarily deployed to the VJ?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't that badgering the witness? He has just
18 answered the question, Madam Carter. Are you aware of any other cases
19 where temporary deployment in the VJ took place where the documents
20 didn't circulate through the MOD, isn't that the same question?
21 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour, I'm trying to remove the MOD
22 circumvention. I'm just asking generally. We still haven't gotten an
23 answer to that question, the general question.
24 Q. Are you aware of other instances where VTI members were deployed
25 temporarily into the VJ?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: We haven't had a translation of the answer,
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the witness.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just repeat your answer, please, Mr. Witness.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said clearly that I'm not aware
6 of other cases where members of the Military Technical Institute were
7 sent to the 30th Personnel Centre.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not what you said. You said "ne." What
9 you said was "ne." That's what was not translated. That's fine. Carry
10 on, Madam Carter.
11 MS. CARTER:
12 Q. You separated out the 30th Personnel Centre. Can you tell me,
13 are you aware of any other deployments to the VJ as a whole?
14 A. No, I am not aware of that and I cannot remember that there were
15 such cases.
16 MS. CARTER: General, I thank you for your time and your candour
17 and I pass the witness.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could go to the second page of the document
20 that we were just looking at, which is P2721, please. I apologise,
21 Mr. Registrar, could we go to the next page. It's going to be 6757 will
22 be the proper translation. Perfect. If we could have the -- could we
23 have the portion which is the actually the body of -- of the document,
24 where it starts "based on your consent." Yes, thank you so much.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
1 Q. Just to clarify one matter, I believe this is your third page, it
2 will be page 3 for you in B/C/S. Because there was some discussion for a
3 moment about officers and discussion about members of the VTI, I'd just
4 would like to get one understanding, which is, the gentleman who is in
5 question here, Mr. Stojkovic, he is a civilian, right, and that's what
6 the document says. It says: "Based on your consent," and it's
7 confidential order number, and it says "civilian." Is that what that
8 document says?
9 A. Yes. It says that he was a highly qualified technician,
10 repairman. That was his qualification, Mr. Stojkovic's.
11 Q. And with regard to his qualifications, what he was highly
12 qualified in --
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have 6759 up on the screen.
14 Q. Which would be your page 5.
15 A. Given the text further on, namely that he was a sniper trainer,
16 his qualification was that of a highly skilled technician. In the
17 Military Technical Institute, they had equipment that was intended to
18 adjust aims and he worked in a laboratory where they adjusted the aim on
19 each individual piece of weaponry. After this was done, a certificate
20 would be issued for each piece of weaponry, indicating how accurate it
21 was in aiming, et cetera. And then this certificate would further on
22 accompany that piece of weaponry.
23 Q. Now, I'm wondering if you can help us here. It may be something
24 that you know, it may not be something that you know, but are snipers as
25 a class of soldier used in military operations?
1 A. As far as I am aware, it is used. It exists routinely within
2 units, primarily within infantry units.
3 Q. And you've mentioned and I believe that Ms. Carter actually read
4 to you that the success of his training proved to be more efficient in
5 combat operations. That's what he says in his report; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you had mentioned that because of his expertise one of the
8 things that he was doing was he was helping with an understanding of --
9 technical understanding of how better to use the equipment, which
10 resulted in less expenditure of ammunition; right? That's what the
11 report says?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And with regard to legitimate military concerns, is a legitimate
14 military concern the expenditure of ammunition within a combat operation?
15 A. The army attempts to have the minimum use of not only ammunition
16 but also other resources and they always try to carry out each task using
17 minimum resources.
18 Q. And of course, and unfortunate as it may be because it's a
19 reality of war, the purpose of two sides fighting against each other and
20 young men in the field with guns shooting is to hit, wound, kill, or
21 disable the enemy; correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And as I understand his report, the training that he engaged in
24 assisted in that occurring, which is a large number of hit soldiers on
25 the enemy side, a military function; right?
1 A. That's what it says in the report.
2 Q. You were asked -- thank you so much for those answers.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I'm done with this particular document.
4 Q. You were asked earlier about meetings, and I'm referring to page
5 26, line 19, in which there was a Mladic visit, and you had accompanied
6 General Pustinja with General Mladic when you visited Crvena Zastava
7 plant. Was General Perisic with you during that visit?
8 A. No, he wasn't.
9 Q. And with regard to formation issues -- and by "formation issues"
10 I mean documents that surrounded the formation of the 30th and the 40th
11 Personnel Centre, a matter that you were discussing with Ms. Carter --
12 did you see any documents at that time dealing with the formation of the
13 30th and the 40th Personnel Centre?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could have a moment, I need to just
16 double-check something.
17 Thank you, Mr. Kadijevic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Kadijevic, thank you so much. We've come to
19 the end of your testimony. Thank you very much for taking the time off
20 to come and testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused, you may stand
21 down, and will you please travel well back home.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, are we coming back after the break?
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe that we are, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. We'll take a break and come
2 back at half past 12.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A slight change.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to you, sir. Welcome.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
9 afternoon to everybody in the courtroom and around it. The Defence is
10 now ready to call its next witness, Mr. Rajko Petrovic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Welcome to you too, Mr. Harmon.
12 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. President, I
16 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and
17 nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Petrovic. You may take a
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Guy-Smith.
21 Mr. Lukic. I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic. I've been with Mr. Guy-Smith for this
22 week and his name is on my tongue.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Sudden changes in the course of one
24 day. And this is the result.
25 THE WITNESS: Rajko Petrovic
1 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
2 Q. Sir, for the record, could you please tell us your name.
3 A. My name is Rajko Petrovic.
4 Q. Where were you born and when?
5 A. I was born the 10th of March, 1964, in the village of Agarovici
6 in the municipality of Rogatica
8 Q. Please relax, sir. I don't know whether you are feeling relaxed
9 enough in this position.
10 A. Yes, I appreciate your concern.
11 Q. Second of all, I already told you during the proofing session
12 that the two of us speak the same language and we have to have a clear
13 record, therefore I would kindly ask you to wait a little after my
14 question before giving your answer, and I will do the same after your
15 answers. Could you please tell us, what is your current profession?
16 A. I'm an officer in the army of Serbia.
17 Q. And what is the -- your current position in the army?
18 A. Currently I work in the sector for materiel assets of the
19 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia
20 Q. And what is your rank in the army of Serbia?
21 A. In the army of Serbia
22 Q. And what is your establishment post, or rather, what rank is
23 envisaged by your establishment post?
24 A. The rank of colonel.
25 Q. Mr. Petrovic, I will now swiftly go through your CV or some parts
1 of your professional career which are of some relevance for these
2 proceedings, in my opinion, and then we will focus on some parts of your
3 professional biography as you provide your testimony.
4 When did you graduate from the military academy and where was
6 A. I graduated from the military academy of the land army in 1986 in
8 concentration was finances.
9 Q. Do you have any other degrees or anything that would tell us
10 something about your professional background?
11 A. I also have a master's degree in military economic sciences and I
12 obtained my master's degree at the military academy of the army of
14 Q. When was that?
15 A. In 2007.
16 Q. Have you continued your education?
17 A. Yes, and I'm currently working on my doctoral thesis, also at the
18 military academy of the army of Serbia
19 Q. And now can you just briefly confirm the things that I will be
20 reading from your personnel file. First of all, from February 1989, you
21 were in the 639th Logistics Base of the then JNA of the 5th Military
22 District in Zagreb
23 A. Yes, that's correct. I was the chief of finance of the 639th
24 Logistics Base.
25 Q. When the JNA withdrew from the territory of Croatia
1 of February, 1992, pursuant to an order of the 2nd Military District of
2 the then JNA you became a desk officer in the organ for planning and
3 finances in the then 10th Corps of the 2nd Military District in the Bihac
4 garrison; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is. When the Croatian army --
6 Q. Just give me a brief answer.
7 A. Yes, it's correct.
8 Q. I'm just briefly taking you through your career and then we will
9 come back to some details thereof.
10 Did there come a time when you became a member of a different
11 military after the JNA; and if that was the case, when did that happen?
12 A. I became a member of the Army of Republika Srpska.
13 Q. When?
14 A. That was on the 1st of June, 1992.
15 Q. And could you please tell us, what duties did you discharge from
16 June 1992, and where did you serve?
17 A. I was assigned to a position in the administration for the
18 planning of development and financing of the Main Staff of the Army of
19 Republika Srpska, and I served in the -- in one of the departments and
20 that was the department for planning and analysis. I was a desk officer
21 for planning and analysis.
22 Q. How long did you remain a member of the VRS?
23 A. I remained a member of the VRS up to April 1999, and then I
24 became a member of the Army of Yugoslavia and that was in early April
1 Q. And since then, since April 1999 you have first been a member of
2 the Army of Yugoslavia
3 A. And now I'm an officer in the army of Serbia.
4 Q. During the period between 1992 and 1999 when you were an officer
5 of the VRS, you told us where you served and did you discharge any other
6 duties during that same period of time; and if you did, where was that?
7 A. During that period I remained in the position that I mentioned up
8 to January 1997, I believe. And then I remained in the same
9 administration but I was appointed chief of department for control and
11 Q. Very well. We will discuss that administration in some more
12 detail later on for everybody's benefit. And now tell us, what was your
13 rank when you were a member of the VRS and did the rank ever change?
14 A. When I joined the Main Staff of the VRS I was a captain. From
15 January 1993 I was captain 1st class, and in that same month, January
16 1997, that is, I became a major.
17 Q. Who issued documents to upgrade you in the VRS?
18 A. The document on the interim promotion into captain 1st class was
19 passed in January 1993 by the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS. I
20 believe that the next document was also passed by him and that was
21 confirmed by the 30th Personnel Centre.
22 Q. Very well. And now let's go back to that same period in Bihac in
23 1992. That's the period I'm interested in. Just a moment, please.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said on page 55, line 12,
25 the word that we use here in the courtroom, to verify, and verification,
1 instead of "confirm," so the 30th Personnel Centre verified the
2 appointment and in that sense I would like to intervene and correct the
4 Q. Mr. Petrovic, I find it difficult to use the term
5 "lieutenant-colonel" although we normally use ranks in this courtroom.
6 Let me ask you this: Bihac 1992, you said what was your position was and
7 what your duties were at that time. Did something happen in May 1992
8 that had an impact on your stay in Bihac?
9 A. In May 1992 there were a few things, some of them more important
10 than others, some of them had an impact on my further path. One of them
11 was a telegram by General Blagoje Hadzic, who was acting on behalf of the
12 federal secretary for defence, and in that telegram he informed all JNA
13 members that a re-organisation of the JNA had already been underway and
14 that JNA units had started withdrawing from the territories of the former
15 republics of the SRJ into the territory of the Federal Republic
17 territory of the SRJ as well as the need for those members and officers
18 of the JNA to stay with the JNA in Bosnia-Herzegovina if they were born
20 And that telegram was read to us by Colonel Grujo Boric after the
21 previous commander of the 10th Corps of the JNA, General Nikovic, was
22 pensioned off. After that, effectively Colonel Boric took over the
23 command of the remainder of the command of the 10th Corps -- of the
24 former 10th Corps. I apologise, I would also like to add that he said to
25 us on that occasion that we should take decision according to our
1 individual conscience and that he would not forbid anybody to leave, and
2 that included even the officers who were born on the territory of Bosnia
3 and Herzegovina
4 Army of Republika Srpska, the officers --
5 Q. Just a moment, please, let me interrupt you here. First of all,
6 tell me this: After that, or later on when the Army of Republika Srpska
7 was established, do you know what happened to Pukovnik Boric, what was
8 his lot?
9 A. The remainder of the command of the former 10th Corps where I
10 served as well, headed by Colonel Boric, were through, or rather, they
11 left, and ended up in the territory near Drvar. The intention was to
12 establish the command of the 2nd Krajina Corps, and its commander was
13 Colonel Grujo Boric.
14 Q. After this telegram was read out to you, what was your reaction,
15 Lieutenant-Colonel, and your decision?
16 A. My decision was the same as that of the other members of the JNA,
17 namely that I should follow my conscience and naturally remain in Bosnia
18 as a member of the Army of Republika Srpska which was being established.
19 Its establishment was announced.
20 I had no hesitation, no doubts even though in that telegram read
21 out to us by Colonel Boric it said that the officers who remained in the
22 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina would be guaranteed certain status
23 and certain benefits.
24 There is nothing that could justify me leaving the area and
25 allowing somebody else to defend my hearth while going to Belgrade
1 myself, being an officer and all.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said allowing somebody else to defend my?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My home.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Petrovic, are you okay? Are you comfortable
5 where you are?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Does it look like I'm not?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, it does.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, naturally it's not pleasant
9 to sit here. This is the first time I have ever testified before this
10 court, and I spent a restless night.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, if what I'm going to say is any comfort, let
12 me just say it. Feel free. Nobody is going to do harm to you, nobody --
13 nothing will happen to you as a result of you talking and testifying in
14 this court. Just relax, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Do you remember something about your colleagues from the unit who
19 hailed from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina? How did they react
20 to your decision to remain? And I would like to know how many of them
21 remained and how many of them left, as far as you can remember.
22 A. From what I know, the majority of members of the JNA from that
23 command remained. There were perhaps individual cases of people leaving.
24 Q. Thank you. Another question, and we will now deal with the past,
25 but it's all within the context. While you were in Zagreb and upon your
1 arrival in Bihac, in that period of time, which was one year before the
2 conflict erupted, the officers of other ethnicity - Muslims, Croats,
3 Slovenians - did they also leave your unit during that period of time?
4 A. There certainly were cases of people leaving. Almost all
5 officers who were Croats or Slovenians left the unit. I even remember a
6 major with whom we stood guard, he said to me, Rajko, I can no longer
7 stand this. I will leave and you can shoot if you want. We kissed each
8 other and he left the barracks, the barracks perimeter. I cannot
9 remember his name just now.
10 Q. What was your reaction to people leaving the unit?
11 A. I understood their decision. Their families were there and they
12 almost had no other choice, had no other option.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, you told us that starting on the 1st of June,
14 1992, you took up your new position in the Main Staff.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I now orally
16 amend our 65 ter list by showing to the witness a document marked 03388D.
17 This is the document that Mr. Petrovic showed to me for the first time
18 when we met on Saturday here in The Hague. I sent over to the OTP the
19 B/C/S version of that document on the same day, on Saturday, and on the
20 following day I sent them the draft translation, and if Ms. Carter agrees
21 to this, I would ask that this document be shown to the witness now.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
23 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, we have no objections to the oral
24 amendment. The only concern that we have is if and when the document is
25 actually tendered, that it be marked for identification so that our staff
1 can have an opportunity to look over the translation.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I certainly intended to tender it in
4 for -- to be marked for identification because we are still awaiting
6 Q. Mr. Petrovic, before we turn to the document, tell us, how did
7 you become member of the Army of Republika Srpska? Who informed you of
8 that, where did you go, and what did you do?
9 A. I became a member of the Army of Republika Srpska by remaining
10 there together with the portion of the former 10th Corps of the JNA,
11 which had moved to Drvar and became the basis for establishing the
12 command of the 2nd Krajina Corps. Shortly thereafter a telegram arrived
13 from the Main Staff of the VRS, which had already been established. It
14 first had the signature of General Djukic, and the Drvar command did not
15 react to it. The second one came with the signature of General Mladic
16 and it said that I was to report to my new duty at the Main Staff of the
17 VRS urgently. I was to report to Han Pijesak and Crna Rijeka.
18 Colonel Boric approved that and, after several days of travel, I
19 reached Crna Rijeka. Shortly afterwards, they gave me the order on
20 transfer and appointment, which we can see here, which was signed by the
21 minister of defence of Republika Srpska, Colonel Bogdan Subotic.
22 Q. In this document we can see that the number of this order is
23 21-1/92. It was issued on the 23rd of May, and can we see in this
24 document what was the day you were appointed to this position?
25 A. As far as I can remember, my appointment commenced on the 1st of
1 June. A number of reports are written based on this order, hand-over of
2 duty and so on. There are certain steps that need to be taken.
3 Q. We see something else here, which we will comment on later,
4 establishment -- rank and establishment grouping; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, would you please tell me what it says here. It
7 says here duty -- what was your establishment position?
8 A. It was acting clerk in the organ for planning and financial
9 activity which, per establishment, was supposed to be, and was, major or
10 lieutenant-colonel PG 14. However, given the rank I held at the time, I
11 could not be appointed. Rather, they appointed me acting clerk, with my
12 rank per establishment being captain 1st class, PG 13.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, a question concerning this organ where you
14 worked, to which did it belong, this organ, organ for planning?
15 A. Organ for planning was a part of the Main Staff which later grew
16 into the administration for planning of development and financing. It
17 was directly subordinate to the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.
18 Q. Who headed that administration?
19 A. This administration was headed by the then colonel and later on
20 general, Stevan Tomic [phoen], general of the VRS.
21 Q. Tell me this, please, what did this administration comprise?
22 Which organisational units?
23 A. The administration had within its composition three
24 organisational parts. It was a restrictive formation with a reduced
25 number of personnel. They had the department for plan and analysis -
1 that was the first department - the second one was for bookkeeping and
2 records, and the third one was called regulations and control, or control
3 and regulations.
4 Q. How many people worked in these three departments?
5 A. According to the restrictive establishment, there should have
6 been a dozen or so people. However, there were only two men there; one
7 was the chief of the administration, and I was the second one. I was a
9 Q. Did somebody else come later on, somebody else who was your
10 superior? I'm interested in --
11 A. It wasn't until mid-1993 that the department for plan and
12 analysis where I worked got its chief, Colonel Vojin Matovic, who was at
13 the same time deputy chief of the administration. For a period of time,
14 it may have been six months in 1992 and in 1993, there was another
15 officer who worked in the department for bookkeeping and records.
16 However, he didn't stay there for a long time.
17 Q. Thank you. I did not manage to complete my previous question, so
18 let me do it now. What you just described to us, is this how it was up
19 until the end of the war, up until the end of 1995?
20 A. Yes. There were just three men working there.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we MFI this document until we
23 receive the official translation, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
25 please be given an exhibit number and be marked for identification.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
2 Exhibit D462, marked for identification. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Petrovic, from the moment you joined the Army of Republika
6 Srpska and when you started discharging all the different duties, what
7 was your relationship with the Army of Yugoslavia? I am primarily
8 interested in the status benefits.
9 A. When it comes to status benefits, we received salaries, and
10 during that period of time there was no other benefit that I am aware of.
11 And I'm talking about the early days, the initial period.
12 Q. Was your number of pensionable years changed, did your health
13 insurance change from the times when you were a JNA member?
14 A. I didn't understand your question, I'm sorry.
15 Q. Did you have any status entitlements with regard to your
16 retirement benefits and health insurance benefits?
17 A. Yes, yes. The same thing continued to be as it was in the JNA.
18 Q. We will now deal with your salaries. How was your salary paid
19 when you were a JNA member?
20 A. We received salaries into our current accounts with the Postal
21 Bank of Belgrade
22 Q. Did there come a time when there were problems with the payment
23 of salaries in Belgrade
24 A. Well, it was precisely during that period which was mid-1992.
25 That period was very dynamic. There was interruption in the flow of
1 payments and new currency was soon introduced. It was called dinar of
2 Republika Srpska or the Republika Srpska dinar. I don't know what the
3 tender was officially called. To put it simply, the situation was
4 chaotic. It was very chaotic, actually. It started being chaotic
5 already in Bihac. A lot of the ties were broken up or interrupted.
6 Q. In order to be able to pursue the matter, I would firstly like to
7 establish a certain basis for my next questions.
8 When you joined the Main Staff and when you started working in
9 your new position, did you have anything to do with the salaries in
10 general and in particular the salaries of the troops of the Army of
11 Republika Srpska?
12 A. The focus of my work in respect of the salaries was the payment
13 of the Army of Republika Srpska. The funds were provided by the MOD of
14 Republika Srpska, or rather, its government, the government of Republika
15 Srpska. That was -- that concerned most of the personnel of the Army of
16 Republika Srpska.
17 Q. And what were your activities with regard to --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Petrovic, at page 63, starting at line 1 --
19 sorry, not page 63, line 1. I thought earlier, and I may be wrong, I
20 thought earlier you said that you were paid -- your salary was paid by
21 the JNA. Now I think you are saying it was paid by the government of
22 Republika Srpska. Did I hear you correctly?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the salaries of most
24 of the VRS members were paid by the MOD of Republika Srpska. My salary,
25 however, was paid in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, as it was
1 already known.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for that.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As well as the salaries of some
4 other officers of the former JNA.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. And now, just briefly, could you please explain, what were your
8 duties and tasks in respect of the payment of salaries funded from the
9 budget of Republika Srpska via the MOD Republika Srpska? What were your
11 A. What are we talking about? Are you talking about my
12 responsibilities or my duties?
13 Q. In my view it's almost the same. I see that they are not the
14 same for you, so let me put it this way: What did you do with respect to
15 the salaries?
16 A. Yes, those were my obligations. My task was to collect
17 information about the needs for funding, namely the salaries for corps
18 units and units attached to the staff. Those needs depended on the
19 current numerical strength in the corps. I prepared a document which was
20 a request for funding. That document was signed by the commander of the
21 Main Staff. And then that document, which was a request, would be
22 forwarded to the MOD of Republika Srpska. Quite often, not to say
23 always, it was sent to the president of the government.
24 Shall I continue talking about the salaries?
25 Q. Yes. I'm interested in this: If the funding was approved in
1 respect of the salaries for those particular members of the Army of
2 Republika Srpska who were funded from the RS budget, what would then be
3 your activities?
4 A. My activities, once the funding was approved, were as follows: I
5 was supposed to go and collect the money at an appropriate payment
6 transactions office, and on that same day I distributed the money for the
7 the corps and the staff, I followed and monitored the payment of
8 salaries, and I requested from them to issue adequate documents for the
9 payment of the salaries. And the document was the payroll signed by the
10 members of the Army of Republika Srpska who received the salaries.
11 From 1992, the funding came, the monies came into the sub-account
12 of the Main Staff as well as the sub-accounts of the corps, and later on
13 there was an account of the military computing [Realtime transcript read
14 in error "competing"] centre of Banja Luka
15 beginning of 2003 that happened. I apologise, 1993. I apologise for --
16 Q. Very well, we will talk about that as well. Give me answers
17 concrete questions.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you talk about the military computing centre
19 in Banja Luka or competing centre? I thought you said computing.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could you please repeat the title of the institution.
22 A. It was the military bookkeeping or computing centre of the Army
23 of Republika Srpska in Banja Luka.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I'll come to the second category of personnel, those who received
2 salaries from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and I asked you a
3 minute ago and you said that you had an account with the Postal Bank, you
4 had a Postal savings account in Belgrade
5 time when there were no longer monetary transaction flows between VRS and
6 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. How was your salary paid after that?
7 A. After that period during which the monetary flows were
8 interrupted -- actually, that period was rather painful. For a certain
9 period of time or for awhile we used personal cheques that we had already
10 raised with the Postal Bank and when it comes to companies in the
11 territory of Republika Srpska, we exchanged those personal cheques for
12 the commodities that they purchased from the Federal Republic
14 goods that they purchased from there.
15 Q. Did you also receive cash independently of the Postal Bank; and
16 if that was the case, who was it who raised that cash?
17 A. I believe that on one occasion I went to the bookkeeping centre
18 of the MOD of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and I signed a receipt
19 against which I was issued a negligible amount of money which was also
20 used for the payment of salaries. The payments were effectuated in a
21 very restricted fashion. Cheques were obtained from the Postal Banks and
22 those cheques were then taken to the accounting centre of the Ministry of
23 Defence, and the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence then sent
24 them to the Postal Bank and exchanged them for cash against a debt note,
25 debt certificate.
1 Q. When was that, during what period of time? Could you tell us the
2 year? You don't have to be more precise than that.
3 A. Well, that was in 1992. After that, the current accounts were
4 blocked, sometime in July and August. I'm talking about the initial
5 period of 1992, about early 1992. Actually, not early 1992 but June and
6 July. That was just after the Army of Republika Srpska was established.
7 Q. And later on was the payment transaction flow restored? Could
8 you then be paid through the Postal Bank?
9 A. The Postal -- the payment transactions between Republika Srpska
10 and the FRY were never reinstated, but as far as I can remember, sometime
11 in September, October an agreement was reached at a certain level with
12 the Postal Bank, and according to that agreement, payments could be made
13 into the Postal Bank by the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence
14 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And those payments would be made
15 based on the lists certified in the corps or the staff or some other
16 organisational unit of the Army of Republika Srpska. And then such
17 monies could be withdrawn depending on the situation with the cash at the
18 Postal Bank.
19 Q. How important was it for you to physically receive the salary as
20 soon as possible?
21 A. To be honest, during 1993 and 1992, when the rate of inflation
22 was exorbitant, by the time we received the salaries from Belgrade, by
23 the time we received money from Belgrade
24 its value. It had been completely devalued. So much so that very often
25 you couldn't even buy ten packs of cigarettes. I believe there was a
1 brand called Vek that cost 2.5 marks, and we couldn't even buy that.
2 Q. During the proofing sessions you showed me a bank note that you
3 have kept. How many zeros were on it, do you remember?
4 A. Yes, I remember. I have it still. I'm looking at it. I don't
5 want to make a mistake. This is a bank note of 50 billion dinars. It
6 was issued in late 1993. The year is 1993. And --
7 Q. Just a moment. Let's be economical and use the opportunity to
8 show everybody in the courtroom the bank note that you are holding in
9 your hand.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could you please put it on the ELMO.
11 Q. Mr. Petrovic, just put it on there. When was this bank note
13 A. In the later half of 1993, as far as I can remember. If I may
14 continue, I don't think you could buy a sandwich for this note. There
15 was another bank note which was the 500 billion one. I don't have it
16 and, as far as I know, that note was the highest denomination ever
17 printed anywhere in the world.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just state for the record
19 that this note that we can see on the ELMO contains figure 5 and ten
20 zeros. I'm unable to describe it verbally.
21 Your Honours, I will perhaps scan this note and then on Friday I
22 will perhaps tender it, but for the time being I will make no requests.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Petrovic --
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now, Your Honours, use a
2 document of the same form as the previous document. By your leave, I
3 would like to orally amend our 65 ter list with the document 03389D 65
4 ter. Once again this is a document that Mr. Petrovic gave to me during
5 proofing and which I disclosed to the OTP as soon as I received it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am.
7 MS. CARTER: Under the same guise as the last one, we just ask
8 for it to be marked as MFI so we can look at the translation, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Carter.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. While we are waiting for the document to be put on the screen,
12 Mr. Petrovic, you see that this is the document by way of which you were
13 promoted, the promotion enactment. We already heard some testimony
14 before this Court, but if you can tell us in one sentence, what elements
15 does a salary of an officer contain?
16 A. The main element was determined by the rank and the other main
17 element was determined by the position to which one was appointed. And
18 then other elements of the salary were calculated based on these two
19 basic elements.
20 Q. Would you describe this document to us.
21 A. This document is the order on my extraordinary promotion to the
22 rank of captain 1st class in the financial services. This document was
23 issued and signed by the commander of the Main Staff of the Army of
24 Republika Srpska. It says that as of the 7th January 1993, I was being
25 promoted to the rank of captain 1st class.
1 Q. Can we just look at something. The number of this order is
2 28/17-1 and the date is 7 January 1993
3 A. Yes, the 7th of January.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we mark this document for
5 identification as well, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
7 please be given an exhibit number and be marked for identification.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
9 Exhibit D463 marked for identification. Thank you.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now the next document I would like
11 us to look at, Your Honours, is once again a document we received from
12 the OTP in the financial file of this witness, and in our 65 ter list
13 this is 0401D. Again we are still awaiting the official translation. In
14 the meantime, we can use the draft translation if Ms. Carter agrees, then
15 we can discuss it with the witness and propose that it be MFI'd.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
17 MS. CARTER: That seems the appropriate reaction.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: 04012D.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
21 MS. CARTER: Just for brief clarity of the record, actually this
22 is from the financial file, not the personnel file. I just want to be
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. And I think that I did say
25 the financial file. If I made a mistake, I apologise.
1 Q. First of all, Mr. Petrovic, please tell us what is this that we
2 see before us?
3 A. This is a record of monetary data which is kept in the accounting
4 centre in relation to each person to whom a salary is paid.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now zoom in, Your Honours,
7 the upper right corner where the blue stamp is.
8 Q. Could the witness tell us whose stamp this is?
9 A. This is the stamp of the accounting centre of the Ministry of
10 Defence Belgrade
11 Q. Thank you. It says here "VP 7572 Sarajevo." Whose VP is this,
12 Mr. Petrovic?
13 A. This military post is the military post of the Army of Republika
14 Srpska where I served, that is to say, the Main Staff.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now move to the left part of
17 the document, the lower portion, please.
18 Q. In window number 4, could we look at that. This box 4, what kind
19 of data is entered there, Mr. Petrovic?
20 A. 4, box 4, where is it?
21 Q. Well, the Roman IV. It's on the next page in the English.
22 A. I understand. The data concerning on salary grade is entered
23 here based on the appointment that an officer holds. As I have already
24 said, this element of the salary makes up the basic salary to which other
25 percentages are added. This is the position element, and we also have
1 the rank element.
2 Q. Let me ask you this: The last column within this box, it says
3 here "acting clerk."
4 A. It says "acting clerk in the organ for planning of the Main Staff
5 of the Serbian Republic
6 was called initially.
7 Q. This number, 21-1/92, what does it stand for, do you remember?
8 A. That's the order on appointment. The number of the order.
9 Q. Is that the document that we saw just a minute ago, signed by
10 Mr. Subotic?
11 A. Yes, that is the document.
12 Q. And to the right we see the date, the 1st of June, 1992. What
13 does this date stand for?
14 A. That date is the date when I took over the duties of that clerk
15 in the organ for planning of the Main Staff.
16 Q. 13 PG, what does that signify?
17 A. That is the number based on which salary is calculated. Salary
18 grades carried a certain amount of points.
19 Q. Thank you. And then underneath it, it says "Clerk at the GLST"
20 again 13. The date is the 7 of February 1994, which is the date of the
21 order, there is the number of the order, and the date of appointment is
22 the 10th of November, 1993. Does that mean anything to you,
23 Mr. Petrovic?
24 A. Yes. After the promotion to the rank of captain 1st class -- it
25 says 7th of February, 1994, yes. So after being promoted to the rank of
1 captain 1st class, I met the conditions for being appointed to the
2 position of clerk so that I was no longer acting clerk but became clerk.
3 I was appointed.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, if you could look at your screen and
5 confirm that we are all looking at the same page. I'm looking for the
6 7th of February, 1994.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, underneath the box.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Petrovic: We will discuss this at
11 length tomorrow, but did you ever hear of the 30th Personnel Centre and
12 do you know when it was established?
13 A. I did hear of the 30th Personnel Centre, and as far as I
14 remember, it was established in the later half of 1993, September or so.
15 I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So as not to forget, could this
17 document be MFI'd and I will look at this document again tomorrow --
18 rather, the day after tomorrow with this witness. Otherwise, we can
19 conclude for the day.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number and marked for identification.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
23 Exhibit D464 marked for identification. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 Mr. Petrovic, we are not done with you. We'll come back on
1 Friday because tomorrow we are not working. On Friday at 9.00 in the
2 morning, but in the meantime while you were still testifying you are not
3 allowed to talk to anybody about this case, and in particular not members
4 of the Defence team. Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Then the court stands
7 adjourned to Friday morning at 9.00 in Courtroom II. Court adjourned.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day of
10 September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.