1 Monday, 20 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.
12 Could we have the appearances, please, starting with the
14 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
15 everyone in and around the courtroom. Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata and
16 Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.
18 And for the Defence.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
20 morning to everyone present in the courtroom. Mr. Perisic is represented
21 today by Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, Boris Zorko, our new intern Mr. Morrison,
22 and my name is Novak Lukic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Defence is ready to call the next
25 witness, Mr. Sinisa Borovic.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness make the declaration, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, sir and
7 good morning to you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
10 WITNESS: SINISA BOROVIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. For the record, could you
14 state your first and last name.
15 A. My name is Sinisa Borovic.
16 Q. When were you born?
17 A. On the 6th of November, 1946.
18 Q. Where?
19 A. The municipality Ivanica, the Republic of Serbia
20 Q. Mr. Borovic, at the outset, I will tell you what I've already
21 mentioned in your proofing. First of all, I would like to ask you
22 whether you have ever testified before this Tribunal or any other court?
23 A. I have never testified before this Tribunal or any other court.
24 Q. The two of us speak the same language and it needs to be
25 interpreted, hence, I'd like to ask you to pause following each of my
1 questions before you provide an answer. You can see the screen with the
2 text before you and perhaps you can refer to that. Once the cursor
3 stops, you can start responding. There's no need to focus on that
4 heavily, it's simply enough for you to wait a moment.
5 I'll start with your CV. First of all, I don't know whether you
6 prefer me to address you with "General" or "Professor," in any case, it
7 seems more natural for me to address you as General during this
9 Do you know when you graduated from the military academy?
10 A. I graduated from the military technical academy in Zagreb in July
11 1968. The first degree, that is.
12 Q. I will go through your duties you had as you moved through your
13 career with the JNA and the VJ. As for your military education, in
14 addition to the military academy, do you hold any other higher military
16 A. In addition to the military technical academy, I completed the
17 military staff academy of the then-JNA, as well as a foreign languages
18 school degree. I also hold a PhD.
19 Q. About the PhD?
20 A. It's in military sciences. It was undertaken for the needs of
21 the military. It had to do with the systems of technical security at the
22 level of the Warsaw Pact.
23 Q. In addition to that, do you have any civilian degrees, so to say?
24 A. I hold a bachelor's degree in shipbuilding and machine technical
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
2 repeat this last answer.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters would like to you repeat your
4 last answer, sir. They didn't hear you very well.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a PhD degree with the
6 shipbuilding and machine technical science school in Zagreb.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Was it in the same specialty?
9 A. It was with the centre for multidisciplinary studies.
10 Q. Thank you. I will now rush through certain parts of your
11 military career. Perhaps you can simply confirm that between 1975 and
12 1991, your duty was that of a lecturer at the technical educational
13 centre of land forces in Zagreb
14 A. Yes. Between the 2nd of December, 1974, and up until 1991, I
15 worked for the technical educational centre of land forces in Zagreb
16 moved from assistant to professor to full professor.
17 Q. And you mainly dealt with technical security?
18 A. Yes, and I was the chair of the department in charge of technical
19 security and organic science.
20 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that while you were in Zagreb
21 attended a PhD course in December 1989 in Poland. Actually, it was a
22 post-doctoral degree. For the needs of these proceedings can you tell us
23 what was your post-doctoral thesis?
24 A. The post-doctoral thesis was a system of technical security of
25 armed forces. That is to say, national armies and the armies of the
2 Q. Following that, in March 19 -- excuse me, in August 1991, you
3 moved to the General Staff of the then-JNA. First you were head or chief
4 of electronic equipment administration, and shortly after you became
5 assistant chief of the operational staff affairs administration with the
6 technical administration of General Staff; is that correct?
7 A. Yes. I arrived in Belgrade
8 the higher military school in Belgrade
9 military sciences, but given that there was no work for me at that moment
10 in time due to the situation, I was assigned to the administration with
11 the General Staff.
12 Q. In the subsequent period up to your retirement, did you remain in
13 the school as a lecturer, those duties running concurrently to those with
14 the General Staff?
15 A. Between 1974 and today I have always taught, I have never skipped
16 a single semester and I have always seen myself primarily as a lecturer,
17 as a professor.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness I believe said that he
19 saw himself primarily as a professor. It wasn't clear to me what the
20 English transcript said.
21 Q. Between July 1992 and in the subsequent period, you were
22 appointed head of technical services of the sector for land forces with
23 the 1st Army headquarters in Belgrade
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Then you returned to the General Staff of what by that time
1 became the Army of Yugoslavia in December of 1993 where you were
2 appointed chief and deputy chief of the administration for technical
3 equipment of the land forces with the same sector of the General Staff,
4 that is to say, the logistics sector of the Army of Yugoslavia; is that
6 A. Yes. I was appointed chief of the technical equipment
7 administration and deputy chief in the logistical centre.
8 Q. In November, you were appointed chief of office of the Chief of
9 the General Staff of the VJ; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. You remained in that position until December 1996 when you went
12 to work for the centre of high military educational institutions and,
13 shortly after, you became the dean or the head of that centre. First
14 because there was a vacancy in the establishment and later on your
15 placement was confirmed by decree; is that correct?
16 A. Yes. The previous chief became ill sometime before that and by
17 the time I arrived, he was no longer in his office.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, at page 6, line 6, when you say, "In
19 November, you were appointed chief of the office of the Chief of the
20 General Staff," are you referring to November 1993?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, November 1994.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You see, then you must mention the year each time
23 because the last year you had mentioned was 1993.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe I have but I was probably
25 hasty and spoke too quickly again. I apologise in any case. Then it
1 must be Monday morning.
2 Q. After that, General, between March 1999, and you were appointed
3 chief of the technical administration in charge of the logistical -- in
4 the logistical sector [Realtime transcript read in error "centre"] of the
5 VJ; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Finally, your last position with the VJ prior to retirement was
8 in December 2000 when you were appointed assistant to the Chief of the
9 General Staff of the VJ for the communications sector IT, electronic and
10 something else, I always forget the acronym, what does it stand for?
11 A. It is the communications, IT, electronics, and anti-electronic
12 warfare sector.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
14 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could I have a clarification for the
15 record, and for Mr. Lukic's benefit I'm referring to page 7, line 2, the
16 answer says "logistical centre." I'm not sure if that was intended to be
17 sector as opposed to centre, and perhaps the witness can clarify that for
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 Q. Could you please state what your position when you were appointed
22 assistant, what is that unit -- organisational unit of the General Staff
23 of the VJ called?
24 A. The technical administration which also had the technical service
25 of the land forces, air force, technical administration, and navy
1 technical administration, I was appointed assistant to the chief of the
2 armed forces sector.
3 Q. What organisational unit is this in?
4 A. The logistics sector.
5 Q. You retired in September 2001 by presidential decree. Who was
6 the then-president of the FRY?
7 A. Mr. Kostunica, Dr. Vojislav Kostunica.
8 Q. Now we have to look at another area and that's your professorial
9 work. We've already heard that you did post-doctoral studies, but what
10 was your doctoral dissertation in mechanical engineering?
11 A. My doctoral thesis was called "Expert system for the control of
12 the technical support system."
13 Q. Mr. Borovic, are you perhaps a member of some academy of fine
14 arts and science?
15 A. I'm a full-time member of the academy of engineering sciences of
17 sciences of the Russian Federation.
18 Q. Just one more question regarding your career. What is your
19 current occupation?
20 A. I'm currently a professor at the academy for diplomacy and
21 security. I lecture in the subject of the theory of decision-making and
22 I'm the dean of the chair for the management of small and medium-sized
23 enterprises in Belgrade
24 management and quantitative methods in decision-making, operation
25 research, that is.
1 Q. In your civilian life after retirement, did you occupy any
3 A. After retirement I was assistant and deputy general director of
4 the petroleum industry of Serbia
5 general of the HIP petrochemicals in Pancevo. After that, I was advisor
6 to the general director of the petroleum industry of Serbia and advisor
7 to the president of the board of management.
8 Q. When you say NIS
9 A. The petroleum industry of Serbia.
10 Q. Are you a member of a political party?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. We'll now move --
13 A. I occupied another position, in fact. When Mr. Tadic was defence
14 minister, I was executive director in the defence ministry of the Army of
16 Q. When you say "Mr. Tadic," you mean the president of the Republic
17 of Serbia
18 A. Yes, but he was then defence minister.
19 Q. And that was after what we call the democratic changes when
20 Milosevic was replaced; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I will run through your career chronologically and the facts that
23 you are going to testify to, and we are going to focus on the time when
24 you were part of the cabinet of the General Staff of the army. But
25 before that, when you returned from Warsaw and came to the General Staff
1 of the then-JNA, what was the prevailing sentiment among the officers
2 cadre in the JNA concerning the break-up of Yugoslavia in 1991?
3 A. I was personally surprised because most generals thought that
5 preserved, a view that I did not share. I was looking at things from a
6 distance, from Warsaw
7 disintegration were stronger and that it wouldn't happen as the officers
8 thought. But the military brass did not see it that way.
9 Q. In your professorial and officer's career did you deal with
10 strategic research?
11 A. From the time when I assistant professor onwards, I continuously
12 dealt with strategic research especially in the centre for the
13 methodology of research and the methodology of military skills including
14 the unit for research. I continuously co-operated with that centre, and
15 when I became commander of the centre of military schools, I gave
16 assignments to that institute and worked together with them on
17 assessments and projects of interest to the army.
18 Q. Did you use the services of that centre even at the time when you
19 occupied the position of Chef de Cabinet of the Chief of General Staff?
20 A. Yes, because I respected their work and I knew personally the
21 researchers, and when we needed to check certain information and analyse
22 and provide quantitative support, I did co-operate with that institute.
23 Q. I have now a couple of questions about your activities when you
24 were part of the technical administration in 1991 and later until 1994,
25 practically, although that includes a stint in the 1st Army. What were
1 your duties while you were in the technical administration in 1991 and
2 early 1992 until the Army of Yugoslavia was established?
3 A. That had to do with the development of the service, building up
4 the organisation, information, infrastructure of the service,
5 modernisation of the service, establishing a new administration for a new
6 army, changing the system of compartmentalising of materiel reserves of
7 the army, repair shops and centres, et cetera.
8 Q. Who was your superior at that time when you are in the technical
10 A. First General Djukic and then General Ratko Milovanovic.
11 Q. You mean Djordje Djukic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What was the situation in that technical administration in this
14 line of work, in view of the fact that the VJ had started to evacuate
15 from the territory first of Slovenia
16 territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? What kind of challenge
17 was it from your point of view?
18 A. Well, it was a challenge because the JNA was in the process of
19 disappearing. All the documents had to be redrafted because the previous
20 documents had been drafted for a large country and a large army. All
21 this had to be reworked. Many units were coming to the territory of
23 jurisdiction, they were within the jurisdiction of the army. So there
24 was a lot of work in re-organising and administering.
25 Q. When you say that many units were coming, what was to be done
1 with these units?
2 A. They were mainly arriving with their own moveable reserves and
3 supplies that they had as part of their own kits and combat sets. All
4 that had to be admitted and identified, then stored and registered in our
5 system. Most often it didn't even arrive. It was deposited at some
6 field locations that had been prepared for the army in the territory of
8 Q. What kind of a challenge, if any, did the officers cadre arriving
9 newly to Serbia
10 A. Well, that was a problem because their status had been regulated
11 in the territories of the republics that had seceded, not in the Republic
12 of Serbia
13 Q. We have to deal in greater depth with this topic. The technical
14 and repair institute in the system of the former SFRY, to whom were they
15 subordinated and what they were a part of?
16 A. The old Yugoslav People's Army had five repair institutes,
17 maintenance institutes. Three of them were for machinery; Bregana, on
18 the border between Slovenia
19 Sarajevo, Bosnia
20 technical maintenance institute of Cacak
21 maintenance institute Kragujevac in Serbia, they were subordinated to the
22 technical administration of the Yugoslav People's Army.
23 In addition, the Yugoslav People's Army also had naval and air
24 force technical maintenance institutes.
25 Q. We've already heard some testimony about that, so I won't go into
2 After the establishment of the Army of Yugoslavia, the VJ, did
3 anything change in this chain of subordination of technical maintenance
4 institutes? And if so, how?
5 A. Well, only the maintenance institutes in Cacak and Kragujevac
6 remained at the disposal of the Army of Yugoslavia. They were originally
7 established with large capacities to service a large JNA, and for the
8 Army of Yugoslavia
9 Q. What exactly does that mean?
10 A. That means that the plan of general maintenance of combat
11 equipment of the Army of Yugoslavia that was to be implemented by the
12 maintenance institute did not envisage the use of all capacities of the
13 maintenance institutes, and that's why they were transformed into
14 military profit-making institutions which allocated certain capacities to
15 act as profit-making enterprises on the market, either providing services
16 to other entities, such as the Jugopetrol company, or they were supposed
17 to go through conversion and move into civilian activities, which they
18 did. For instance, the institute in Kragujevac which dealt with
19 ammunition had a good carpentry shop producing packaging for ammunition,
20 but they started to produce casings, honey-making packaging, watches,
21 et cetera.
22 Q. All right. Who approves the plan of maintenance for the Army of
24 A. The technical administration for the technical maintenance
25 institute in Cacak. It was the section for machinery and for the
1 munitions, explosives, and lethal assets section.
2 Q. Who approves that plan?
3 A. The chief of technical administration. According to the general
4 plan of assignments of the Army of Yugoslavia, every assignment has its
5 number, et cetera.
6 Q. We won't go into that. Once the plan is approved by the chief of
7 technical administration, funds need to be provided. And who decides
8 ultimately how many -- how much funding is to be allocated for the
9 technical maintenance institutes?
10 A. It's the finance and development administration of the Army of
12 specific assignment in general maintenance plans.
13 Q. And where do the funds come from?
14 A. From the budget administration of the defence ministry.
15 Q. Do you know that the technical administration in its plans and in
16 the approval of its plans ever cited requirements to finance anything
17 related to Republika Srpska or the Army of the RSK?
18 A. No, never.
19 Q. You mentioned military profit-making enterprises within those
20 institute, that means they can decide how they will use those free
21 capacities independently of the army plans?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were they able to provide their capacities, personnel, and
24 services to the Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of the RSK if they
1 A. Well, if it was financially profitable, yes, and if they were
2 sure they could collect money for these services.
3 Q. Who would be the one to decide on concluding such a deal?
4 A. Either the institute itself or an administrative body which was
5 called the association of maintenance institutes. It was just an
6 umbrella organisation linking these two institutes for purposes of
7 administration to know what they were being used for.
8 Q. If they decided to do that, did they need the approval the
9 administration or any other body of the Army of Yugoslavia?
10 A. No, they did not need any approval. They issued semi and annual
11 analyses on the use of their capacity and the balance or the state of
12 their finances, and any profits found its way to the republic and federal
14 Q. During this period which I refer to as the break-up of the
15 country between 1991 and 1993, did you go to any of the maintenance and
16 repair institutes in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and if so, for
17 what reason?
18 A. I -- towards the technical and repair institute in Travnik with
19 the late General --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Ratko Milovanovic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me conclude the answer. And
22 the maintenance and repair institute in Hadzici near Sarajevo. The
23 management of both institutes were upset with the developments in the
24 country. They wanted the chief of administration of the General Staff to
25 tell them what the assessment and estimates were about any further
1 development of the institutes in those locations, and in general what our
2 position was.
3 Q. What did you tell them?
4 A. It was my assessment even back then that it was to be our last
5 visit to those institutes. I openly stated that until further notice,
6 until the final stage of the break-up, we were no longer going to finance
7 any development projects of the institute, or institutes. If they remain
8 under the jurisdiction of the General Staff finally, and under our
9 administration, then any financing and development projects were to be
10 picked up from where they were left off. In case of the institutes
11 becoming parts of other states, they were to, of course, negotiate their
12 fate in accordance with the newly created situation.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] At line 16, page 1 [sic] I believe
14 that the witness said the break-up of the country, or excuse me, or maybe
15 he meant to say the final outcome of the break-up. The final result,
16 that is.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I had in mind.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. What happened with the equipment of the three institutes in
20 Travnik, Hadzici, and Sarajevo
22 A. All of the institute's equipment remained there, mainly heavy
23 machinery. The perhaps the only things that could be moved were some
24 light tool sets and they were then taken to Serbia. I only know that
25 from the institute in Travnik, some special gauging measurement units
1 were brought on board a vehicle into Serbia and that is something the
2 other two institutes did not have. All other equipment remained in the
3 same locations. There was no possibility to extract it.
4 Q. Did you in the technical administration -- well, let me ask you
5 this first, although we didn't touch upon it during proofing, but when
6 did this visit take place in relation to the establishment of the FRY in
7 April 1992?
8 A. It was just before the winter and the conditions were
9 sufficiently poor to make our return from Sarajevo difficult.
10 Q. Did the technical administration have information about fuel
11 levels and reserves of the JNA in the whole of the SFRY?
12 A. Yes, we certainly did.
13 Q. Can you tell us what happened with those fuel reserves once the
14 JNA left Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia
15 A. The fuel kept in stationary tanks which were of the capacity
16 between 20- and 70.000 tonnes remained in Bosnia and Herzegovina
18 units only brought back their unit or troop reserves, what they could
19 carry in their tanks.
20 Q. Who took possession of those stationary fuel reserves, if you
22 A. I do. The paramilitary forces. They first went for the storages
23 and warehouses because they were poorly defended. Once the JNA withdrew,
24 storage crews were usually attacked or eventually allowed to pull out
25 while leaving their reserves behind.
1 Q. When you say "paramilitary forces," what do you have in mind?
2 A. The then-forces of the Croatian National Guard, and any Serb and
3 Muslim forces that were outside the framework of the state. We
4 considered them all to be paramilitary formations.
5 Q. Thank you. I will move on to the next topic concerning this
6 period of the transformation of the armed forces. A moment ago you said
7 you worked on organisation and formation of the newly established army in
8 your technical administration. I also wanted to ask you whether you
9 participated in the general plan making process of organisation of the
11 A. I participated in general terms in all types of re-organisation,
12 starting with General Mirkovic, who was the chief at the outset, onwards.
13 I was one of the very few organisational science professors with the
14 General Staff, and as such, I took part in the work of all those teams.
15 That period continued until or during the tenure of Mr. Tadic, who is now
16 president and was at the time defence minister.
17 Q. When you say that a new army model was being created, can you
18 explain that to us as laymen, what does that mean in terms of
20 A. In order to come up with an organisational structure of all
21 branches and services of the army, as well as to economise and reach
22 optimal levels, strategic levels, one needs to include a number of
23 criteria, such as financial criteria, demographic criteria, as well as to
24 plan the development of specific units and institutions of the VJ. First
25 of all, we need to deal with their defence structures, then finances,
1 materiel, personnel issues, locations, et cetera. Only a person dealing
2 with all those can appreciate the magnitude of such an organisational
4 Q. Vis-a-vis the former JNA in terms of organising active-duty
5 personnel, what were your problems when planning for the establishment of
6 this new VJ?
7 A. From the outset, we were trying to come up with an army that
8 would match the size of the state. We faced very serious personnel
9 issues rather than professional issues. We created -- we were in the
10 process of creation of a smaller army which simply did not have enough
11 positions for all of the personnel who eventually ended up in the
12 territory of the Republic of Serbia
13 Q. It seems to me that I heard you say that you were creating a new
14 army and a new state; is that what you wanted to say?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I just wanted to clarify the transcript. The problem you
17 mentioned -- well, can you explain to the Chamber what it means to have
18 an organisational establishment plan of an army? What does it mean in
19 terms of a single officer, for example?
20 A. First of all, his military specialty needs to be taken into
21 account with the VJ. It also needs to take into account one's
22 professional background, establishment rank, pay category or salary
23 category, i.e., all status issues which had do with the work and life of
24 an army member. It all needs to be included in our establishment plans.
25 Q. Once such a structure is put in place of the VJ, is it then known
1 for each and every member of the VJ where that person is supposed to be?
2 A. Yes, that person has a unique place in that establishment system.
3 He is assigned his own special numbers and files.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private
6 session now.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 13896-13897 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Just another brief topic before we move to the office of the
4 Chief of General Staff and your own activities there, and those are the
5 international sanctions imposed by a resolution of the Security Council
6 of the UN in the summer of 1992 against Yugoslavia. From your
7 professional points of view, how did these international sanctions impact
8 on your activities?
9 A. They had a number of consequences. We had to create a model of
10 preparing decisions for delivering equipment to the army against the
11 background of an international embargo and international blockade, and
12 that had to include all the know-how about high criteria-ranking and high
13 criteria decision-making.
14 Q. When you say "we" who do you mean?
15 A. Myself and Mrs. Dragana Becejski, a PhD, I was in the examiners
16 commission when she defended her thesis, and she worked in the
17 General Staff office providing IT support and she's now a regular
19 Q. What did you actually do?
20 A. We received a model of recommendations, we published it in our
21 press and then we modified it before publishing it abroad because this
22 was -- these were professional papers. It was concentrated on a model of
24 Q. When was that?
25 A. We published it in the civilian magazine in 1994. It was called
1 "Kvalitet" [phoen], this magazine.
2 Q. Very briefly, what was your conclusion in researching this model?
3 What was the point, the gist of it?
4 A. It would take awhile if I were to explain that. With the embargo
5 and the blockade and the sanctions, there always remained certain
6 interests, as shown by other research, that prevented the embargo from
7 being implemented 100 per cent, and the recommendation was, after
8 analysing many alternatives, that suppliers used before the blockade
9 should continue to be used finding other ways, other channels to bypass
10 the embargo. We had to find new ways and the actual routes had to be
11 found by the suppliers.
12 Q. From your knowledge, who was it that broke the embargo at the
14 A. The embargo was violated by all the countries in our region;
16 Q. All right.
17 A. And the states that co-operated with them and with Serbia both.
18 Q. Now I would like to move to the point when you became
19 Chef de Cabinet of the Chief of General Staff. That was in
20 December 1994, as we've heard. First of all, did you want to be
21 appointed to that post, and how did that happen?
22 A. First of all, I did not wish that post, although, I knew
23 General Perisic, we had worked together in the Pula garrison as
24 second lieutenants and lieutenants. Still, I did not want to work in the
25 office and to deal with protocol, receiving guests, dealing with
1 residences and villas. I wanted to be a professor and do my own
2 professional work.
3 However, General Ratko Milovanovic, whom I held in very high
4 esteem both as a superior officer and a very clever, bright general,
5 invited me one Thursday to talk to General Perisic. The general
6 apparently found it very difficult to work with the staff at the office
7 that he found there and he needed help in organising or re-organising the
8 work of that office.
9 That Thursday I could not accept it and General Perisic gave me a
10 dead-line until the following Monday to think about it. That Monday I
11 received another call from General Milovanovic and he asked me what my
12 decision was. I said I decided not to accept. He showed me a notebook
13 and told me I shouldn't complicate things because they had a session of
14 the collegium the day before and I was already appointed Chef de Cabinet
15 of the Chief of General Staff, that I should go and see the general,
16 there would be a little treat at the office, et cetera. That's the way
17 it usually goes.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right. I would like to look at
19 D200 now, MFI. B/C/S page -- it's your tab 3, General. It's an order on
20 the organisational units of the General Staff. D -- the English page is
21 1D2T -- sorry, 1D2-0972. And the B/C/S -- and the B/C/S is page 6.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
23 MR. HARMON: We are having difficulty locating this document.
24 I'm not sure we received -- we didn't receive this document, notification
25 on this document. So if we could just have a minute or if we could get a
1 copy of this document, it would be helpful to us. If there's a spare
2 copy in English.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, unfortunately I did not prepare
4 English copies. I believe we announced this document. Yes, we did. I'm
5 looking at the list of exhibits and we put it there. You see it on the
6 screen now but I'll certainly wait for Mr. Harmon. Or perhaps we could
7 take a break, Your Honours, now in order not to start with the document
8 until Mr. Harmon has had time to look at it.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at quarter to.
10 Court adjourned.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we for a moment go back into
15 private session, please, because of the document we just had admitted.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm very sorry. May the Chamber please move into
17 private session.
18 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may correct the record, it was
3 our mistake but we really did not make this document available to the
4 Prosecution, so I will not show it. I believe the witness will be able
5 to answer my question even without the document.
6 Q. General Borovic, you don't have to look at the paper in front of
7 you. I want to ask you, what are the basic duties of the Chef de Cabinet
8 of the Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia?
9 A. His basic duty is to cater to the Chief of the General Staff in
10 all matters where the Chef de Cabinet can facilitate his work, to receive
11 and send out mail, to receive visiting parties, support various
12 facilities, take care of the security arrangements for the Chief of the
13 General Staff in his travels and anywhere else, to prepare papers and
14 presentations that the Chief of the General Staff is to make before the
15 state bodies and various authorities, to follow up on tasks and duties
16 that emanate from meetings, to take care of various villas and other
17 facilities, to make security arrangements, to take care of the protocol,
18 issue assignments to staff units and units immediately subordinated to
19 the staff command, and to issue assignments to the guards brigade and the
20 special units corps, to organise ceremonies on occasion or visits of
21 delegations where such ceremonies are appropriate.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. That would be it.
24 Q. Do you know whether the -- the office of the Chief of the
25 General Staff has any staff functions?
1 A. Yes, in terms of processing documents, analysing documents, and
2 making summaries for the Chief of the General Staff, sorting out
3 documents according to jurisdiction, documents that come into the office
4 and are not addressed immediately to the Chief of the General Staff.
5 Q. Who made up this office?
6 A. The Chef de Cabinet, the secretary of the Chef de Cabinet, the
7 ADC of the Chief of the General Staff, deputy chief of the office that is
8 deputy Chef de Cabinet, assistant of the Chef de Cabinet in charge of
9 affairs pertaining to the deputy Chief of General Staff, the office of
10 the general affairs, planning and general affairs, the protocol officer,
11 the finance officer, the legal officer, data entry operators, archivists,
12 drivers. I seem to remember there was more staff that I can't recall
14 Q. What are the duties of the assistant for legal and financial
16 A. The assistant for finance provides all the funding for travel and
17 payments that fall within the purview of the Chef de Cabinet of the
18 Chief of the General Staff, including the payments of per diem to
19 deputies, payment of expenses during visits of various delegations,
20 funding for the development and appointment of the office.
21 Q. What about the assistant for legal affairs?
22 A. That was an advising -- an advisory duty in the office, and this
23 person received all the documents that needed to be assessed from the
24 legal point of view, including some documents that we received from the
25 legal administration. They had to be reviewed for legality as did all
1 the affairs of this office.
2 Q. My next question, what kind of situation did you find when you
3 first took up your duties at the office of the Chief of General Staff?
4 A. Well, the situation I found was, in my opinion, rather primitive
5 as far as IT and technical support is concerned, communications as well,
6 including the inventory and the rolling stock. All that was below
7 expectations, at least expectations of the office of the Chief of
8 General Staff.
9 Q. So what was the first thing you set about doing?
10 A. Well, first of all, I had to persuade my superior, who was of an
11 ascetic disposition, that this had to change and that we had to equip the
12 office with state-of-the-art technology communications equipment. We
13 changed the rolling stock, that is the cars and vehicles available to the
14 chief, later the entire furniture. And then we appointed the conference
15 halls where sessions of the collegium of the Chief of General Staff took
17 Q. We'll come to that later.
18 A. And I forgot that we also had an information analyst as a member
19 of the cabinet.
20 Q. Well, I'm interested in -- let me put it this way: What was the
21 situation that you found there in terms of communication? What sort of
22 communication did the Chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav Army have at
23 his disposal?
24 A. He had civilian and military protected communications and he also
25 had special communications at his disposal.
1 Q. Who did he have these special communication with?
2 A. With the president of the republic, the president of the federal
3 state, that is to say, with both presidents of the republics. I think he
4 also had one with the Ministry of Internal Affairs. I don't think that
5 he had one with the federal foreign affairs ministry. These were the
6 special communication lines. And he had direct protected lines with all
7 his subordinates, with the commanders of armies and with the commanders
8 of independent units. That is to say, all the assistants within the
9 General Staff. These were direct military lines. And of course, he had
10 at his disposal civilian communication lines as well. He also had some
11 so-called hot lines.
12 Q. We'll get to that. Do you remember, since you mentioned special
13 communications lines, did he have a special communication line with the
14 Ministry of Defence, do you remember?
15 A. I don't. But it would be logical that he did.
16 Q. Well, please just tell us what you do remember. I'm not sure if
17 it's necessary to clarify anything. When you say that he had special
18 communications with the president of the federal state, who was it at the
20 A. While I was the chief of the office, it was Mr. Zoran Lilic.
21 Q. Who were the presidents of the republic that he had special
22 communication with?
23 A. It was president Mr. Milo Djukanovic in Montenegro and it was
24 Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, the president of Serbia.
25 Q. Was it somebody else before Djukanovic?
1 A. It could have been Bulatovic. I'm not certain when was the time
2 when they transferred from one duty to another, because this is what they
3 used to do. They would just exchange positions.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to be clear, on page 31, in
5 line 21, the witness said -- it's in the record "civilian military
6 protection communication." He said "civilian and military protected
7 communication lines." So there is no doubt there was separate civilian
8 communication and military protected lines, so maybe just a comma should
9 be inserted. Let us move on.
10 Q. Did the Chief of General Staff have a communication with the
11 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and the Serbian Army of
13 A. Yes, he did. He had communication with the Chief of Staff of the
14 Army of Republika Srpska and he also -- I don't know if he had
15 communication with all parts of the Serbian Krajina, but he did have
16 communication with the top leadership while this area was still a
18 Q. And these communication lines, were they established during
19 General Perisic's time or earlier, so before he assumed this position?
20 A. They had existed earlier as well as the infrastructure, that was
21 all in place already and nothing was done about this system of
23 Q. When you say "earlier," since when did these communications exist
24 between the General Staff and, let me put it specifically, Han Pijesak?
25 A. Well, they existed as long as did the JNA because all places
1 where the JNA existed were part of a communications network.
2 Q. And since you assumed your position as Chef de Cabinet, was
3 anything improved in terms of these communications?
4 A. No. That was not part of our competence. We didn't change
5 anything and we did not even see these communication lines. They were
6 not part of our integrated communications system. It was not up to us to
7 maintain the equipment or the stationary communications centre or
8 communication nodes. Resources were not planned for them so they were
9 not repaired, adapted, modified, or maintained. The Yugoslav Army had
10 its own communications system and its own maintenance of the
11 communications system. I'm not sure how this worked in the Army of
12 Republika Srpska.
13 Q. When you say that they were not part of the integral
14 communications system, what do you mean, which communications?
15 A. Well, none of the communication lines which were part of the
16 communications system but were in the territory of the Federal Republic
17 of Yugoslavia
18 not within our system of checking, control, maintenance, and so on.
19 Q. Just a second. As you are a man who was in this line of work,
20 what does it mean professionally, the maintenance of the communications
21 systems, what does that imply?
22 A. It implies that resources are allocated from the budget according
23 to duties and according to specific codes, that plans are made to
24 maintain the system, to adapt it or modify it, repair the equipment,
25 plans for renewal are made because there is equipment which becomes
1 obsolete, new equipment is introduced and so on. So resources and
2 capacities are allocated for this purpose. And then this operates as
3 part of the system.
4 Q. Are you aware that the Yugoslav Army in its plans maintained the
5 communications systems of the Army of Republika Srpska?
6 A. While I was Chef de Cabinet and also the chief of the
7 communications department, we did not do that. We hardly had enough
8 resources to maintain our own systems and equipment.
9 Q. What are the hot lines, can you tell us that?
10 A. These are special telephone lines which the two collocutors have
11 and which are not part of any procedure. So when you pick up the
12 receiver, then the phone rings at the place of the other person with whom
13 you have such a line established. And it is not used for regular
14 communication. This is why they are called "hot lines." Only if
15 necessary, such lines are activated.
16 Q. At the time when you were assigned to the position of
17 Chef de Cabinet of the Chief of General Staff, did you take part in
18 establishing any new hot lines and who with?
19 A. In addition to reviving the hot line with the chief of the armed
20 forces of Hungary
21 the joint General Staff of the US Army. I was only present when a test
22 call was placed when communication was established with, I think,
23 Admiral Owen, who was the deputy of the joint chiefs of staff. But
24 further on, I was not present during the establishment of this. Only
25 when this first call was placed.
1 Q. When was that, approximately? How long after the point in time
2 when you were appointed?
3 A. Well, maybe during the last third of the time that I spent as
4 Chef de Cabinet. I cannot remember exactly.
5 Q. And the information system, what did you introduce as something
6 new to the work of the office?
7 A. I introduced everything that was necessary, the information
8 system itself because there was no information system before, at the
9 level of the staff and at the office, and it's like a current managerial
10 information system. Something that's needed for the top leadership.
11 Therefore we monitored everything from the printing of the daily
12 newsletter about the situation in the units and the situation as regards
13 the reserves and also monitoring resources, finances, documents,
14 searches, everything that is necessary and that needs to operate. It's a
15 managerial information system.
16 Q. I would ask you a few questions about another segment of the
17 office's activities, and that's the mail. What was the situation like --
18 but first let us explain to the Chamber and everyone in the courtroom, in
19 terms of quantity, how much mail was received daily for the Chief of
20 General Staff? On average, what were the various documents you would
22 A. On average, it would be between 50 and 300 documents of all
23 kinds, from official documents to complaints and appeals that were
24 private requests, and everything else that the Chief of General Staff
25 would receive.
1 Q. And what was the situation that you found in terms of the daily
2 mail when you assumed your position?
3 A. Well, in the first month while I worked with the previous Chef de
4 Cabinet and was getting into stride in terms of the duties of the Chef de
5 Cabinet, I found the situation in which the chief carried all the mail
6 addressed to the office to the desk of the Chief of General Staff. I
7 didn't change anything about that at the beginning for the first 40 days,
8 but I believed that this was not rational, that it was exhausting and
9 that it was just shifting responsibility from the lower levels upwards to
10 the Chief of General Staff.
11 Q. Let us just stop here for a moment. When you said that it was
12 not rational and this shifting of responsibility, what exactly do you
13 mean by that?
14 A. Well, it's not responsible to shift everything on to the Chief of
15 General Staff. So whether a van would be given to the Red Cross to
16 transfer children from one place to another, they would forward it to the
17 Chief of General Staff for his approval, and in my evaluation, that made
18 no sense that the military leadership should deal with that. The
19 deputies and the assistants of independent administrations were the ones
20 that should be doing that, because the climate was that no one dared to
21 decide anything unless it was approved by the Chief of General Staff.
22 Q. What was your position about that?
23 A. Well, my position was that there should be a very strict
24 selection, and that whatever the assistants could do, that they should do
25 it because that is why they existed, and only if there was something that
1 the Chief of General Staff had to do or he was the only person who should
2 be informed about that, that that was the only mail that should be
3 forwarded to him. Or that the various chiefs and the assistant should
4 process everything and then if the Chief of General Staff agrees, then
5 that we should bring it to him and tell him, Well, this has passed all
6 the procedures, so now you can sign it or you can refuse that.
7 Q. Was there any resistance to the idea that the earlier procedure
8 should be changed?
9 A. Yes, everyone resisted, from the chief to everybody else. The
10 chief believed for awhile that we had cut him off from the public
12 Q. So what did you do? In what did your new approach reflect?
13 A. Well, we reviewed all the mail and then we sent it to the chiefs
14 of independent administrations, to assistants, to the intelligence
15 administration or the military diplomatic representatives, so we would
16 only underline or put aside what was important for the Chief of
17 General Staff. We only brought him the new information that he did not
18 already -- that he was not already familiar with, so we knew what was --
19 what the office itself was familiar or unfamiliar with, so if something
20 was repeated, then we wouldn't forward such information to him. We would
21 just file that in the archives.
22 Q. And who personally informed the Chief of General Staff about the
23 incoming mail which he did not need to deal with in more detail, and what
24 was the procedure about the mail?
25 A. While I was Chef de Cabinet, then the Deputy Chef de Cabinet,
1 that was Colonel Borovic, did that.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the name.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness is requested to please repeat the
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Your last sentence is quite confusing in English translation.
7 Can you just put it simply, who did that?
8 A. Chef de Cabinet, that was Colonel at the time, Borovic, it says
9 here General but that was me, I meant myself. But somehow I feel
10 uncomfortable in saying, well, I was the one who did it.
11 Q. It's much easier for us if that's the way we record it in our
12 transcript, in the simplest terms possible.
13 A. All right.
14 Q. Now let me ask you this: What kind of mail, what sort of
15 documents were submitted to the Chief of General Staff through you on a
16 daily basis?
17 A. Well, operative reports from the operations centre.
18 Q. Just let us take it slowly and maybe go through the documents.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So if we could please see on the
20 screen the document 9221 -- D221. I notified Mr. Harmon that it's one of
21 the documents from the 65 ter Defence list, that's 657D. I just want to
22 have a look at the form. It's the daily operations report which was
23 produced by the duty team at the operations centre.
24 Q. Let us just go through it a bit more slowly, please. We already
25 had someone who testified about these documents here. Who were the --
1 all the persons who would receive such a document?
2 A. The chief of the operations administration, that is to say, the
3 sector for operational affairs would receive it, then also the chief of
4 the General Staff. And I am not sure if anyone else received it or not.
5 Q. All right.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that Mr. Harmon has some
7 information, but let me just inform the OTP that we submitted this
8 document as 65 ter 657D. I won't dwell on this too long, I just wanted
9 us to refer to the document briefly, and I apologise to the Prosecution
10 if we provided this document under a different number.
11 Q. Such reports were sent when?
12 A. In the morning when one gets in the office, the report had
13 already been prepared and received by that time. We received such
14 reports from the operational centre.
15 Q. Let us move on to the next part, then. What other types of
16 reports were received daily by the Chief of the General Staff?
17 A. There was always the bulletin containing information provided by
18 the 2nd information administration.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we next please have
20 65 ter 01086D.
21 Q. Mr. Borovic, it is your tab 10 but you'll also have it on the
22 screen. We won't dwell on this one too long either. What is this and
23 who drafts documents such as this one?
24 A. Such a document is drafted and forwarded to the Chief of
25 General Staff by Colonel Krga, who was the chief of intelligence
1 administration. This intelligence bulletin contained either daily
2 information or was issued periodically as a result of analyses. It is
3 then sent to the federal ministry, the General Staff, and independent
4 administrations as well as the office.
5 Q. We see among the addressees the school centre. Did you also
6 receive it later on?
7 A. Yes, I did. It also says "destroy after reading." We always
8 kept such documents in our archives in order to provide continuity.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to the next page of the
10 document to see the contents.
11 Q. These are, you said, periodical information; correct?
12 A. Yes. There was also daily information that was provided.
13 Q. Let's go one step at a time. We see that this one is from
14 March 1995. Without going in the contents, I believe the document speaks
15 for itself. Perhaps peruse this page and the Chamber can be acquainted
16 with a couple of things. I would particularly be interested in what
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For that purpose could we go to --
19 sorry, we should keep this in the English and go to the next page in the
20 B/C/S version to compare.
21 Q. This chapter is called "Conclusions and Forecasts." Item 1
22 speaks of any estimates of potential foreign invasion. Who drafted or
23 who created these estimates and in what sense was it important to the
24 activities of the Army of Yugoslavia?
25 A. Conclusions and forecasts derived from our assessments arrived at
1 at collegium briefings held once a week. On such occasions we usually
2 drafted such conclusions and estimates, or maybe this particular one
3 arrived from the intelligence administration. I can't see the entire
4 contents, but I do know that we always followed the situation, and at
5 collegium meetings, each of the assistants had to present their own
6 information that would be then collated.
7 Q. You can refer to it, it is in tab 10, and perhaps you can tell us
8 who authored it.
9 A. This particular one arrived from the intelligence administration
10 of the General Staff.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please assign an exhibit
13 number to this document, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
17 Exhibit D473. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. In addition to periodical reports of the intelligence
21 administration, was there any daily information that found its way to the
22 Chef de Cabinet and the General Staff?
23 A. Daily we had the chief of the administration who would come to
24 the office with new information. He always consulted with the office to
25 see whether the office was in possession of any other information that
1 was not included in the information they had prepared for the chief. It
2 is always possible that we had some additional information. We also
3 received coded telegrams, which would be then decoded in our office. We
4 received those from our military attaches in our missions abroad. The
5 2nd administration also received such information, but we always
6 double-checked that we had actually received the same telegrams.
7 Q. In addition to the intelligence daily information that was
8 provided, did the office of the Chief of General Staff receive any
9 information from the information department of the VJ, and what was
10 contained therein?
11 A. The chief received information from the administration --
12 information administration which was also brought up to date in terms of
13 IT and procedure. He received reviews of information from the media that
14 had to do with the VJ or were of VJ interest. They would then print out
15 or issue what one may call a press clipping, although we didn't refer to
16 it as such at the time.
17 Q. Who visited the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ daily, and I
18 don't want to lead you on this?
19 A. When the chief was in his office, in addition to the Chef de
20 Cabinet, he was also daily visited by the chief of the intelligence
21 administration. It was General Dimitrijevic at the time.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Security
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Did anyone else visit him daily?
1 A. Yes, Colonel Krga who was the chief of the 2nd administration.
2 Q. Did their meetings with General Perisic vary in terms of content?
3 A. General Dimitrijevic usually went straight to the chief and he
4 seldom visited the office before doing that. He would come to say hello
5 because we were part of the same class at the military academy, but that
6 was it.
7 Q. What about Krga?
8 A. He would always go first to the office and then he would join the
9 chief and General Aco Dimitrijevic during their briefings. After that,
10 the Chef de Cabinet would bring the mail in.
11 Q. And that was you?
12 A. Yes, at the time.
13 Q. Thank you. Later on we'll discuss the collegium meetings, but
14 first let me ask you this: Outside the General Staff of the VJ, what
15 offices were you in permanent or standing communication with?
16 A. The office of the Chief of General Staff was in standing contact
17 with the military advisor to the president of the republic.
18 Q. Who was that at the time you were Chef de Cabinet?
19 A. It was General Krivosija first, and then from our office,
20 Colonel Susic was assigned to that post and later promoted to the rank of
22 Q. What were the basic reasons for that contact? What were the
23 topics discussed?
24 A. The military office of the president of the FRY prepared the
25 agenda for any meetings of the National Security Council regarding all
1 the issues mentioned vis-a-vis the army by the chef -- by the Chief of
2 the General Staff. Then they also conveyed all orders by the president
3 to us, or any demands the authorities had of the VJ. They also acted as
4 a professional advisory body to the president because the president also
5 had a similar civilian office.
6 Q. Just to make it clear, you keep using the term the "president of
7 the republic"?
8 A. I meant the president of Yugoslavia. The presidents of the
9 republics within the Federation did not have their military offices, only
10 the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had such an office.
11 Q. Just to distinguish between the two, perhaps you should use the
12 term "office of the president of Yugoslavia," or, for example,
13 President Lilic's office as opposed to the office of President Milosevic,
14 just to steer clear of any confusion.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a small correction for the
16 transcript, Your Honours. I believe you understood that well, but in any
17 case, line 20, page 44, the witness meant the Supreme Defence Council,
18 for terminology sake.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's -- on that same line it says, "the military
20 of the president of the FRY prepared the agenda for any meetings ..."
21 Now, it can't be the military that prepares an agenda. Who was it
22 supposed to be?
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I wanted to clarify that as well. Who specifically sets the
25 agenda for the Supreme Defence Council meetings? Whose authority was
2 A. Of the president of the FRY, Mr. Lilic.
3 Q. Who prepared that materiel for him?
4 A. When the Supreme Defence Council is sitting, it could also have
5 on its agenda certain items which are not directly related to the
6 ministry that were prepared by other ministries. But in any case, the
7 agenda is set by the chief of the military office of Mr. Lilic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we next please have 65 ter
9 document 00802D while we are on this topic. It is a decision on the
10 establishment and scope of activity of the military office of the FRY
11 president of January 1994.
12 Q. We can see the title, and on the next page we'll see the decision
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to that page in
15 both versions. We see the date. Could we briefly go to the last page to
16 see who signed the document in both versions.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President Lilic signed it. This is
18 his signature.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Concerning this topic, could we see
20 page 3 in both versions. Certain aspects of the scope of authority is
21 referred to on that page. I'm trying to find the exact paragraph. It is
22 also the third line in the English.
23 Q. "Prepares the sessions of the Supreme Defence Council." It is
24 item 3, can you see it?
25 A. Yes, I can see it. It also says:
1 "Produces minutes of those sessions, submits excerpts from the
2 minutes to the relevant organs and monitors the implementation of the
4 Q. We've cleared that up, I believe. What is the next one, you
5 needn't read it out loud because this will be part of the evidence, but
6 I'm interested in particular in the last part. What does the last part
7 of this bullet point mean in reality?
8 A. Which paragraph do you exactly mean? Which part?
9 Q. It is the fourth paragraph. It submits for signature and the
10 proposals of decrees.
11 A. What words does it begin with?
12 Q. It actually ends with "having first considered their legal
13 validity and prepare drafts of such statements itself, if necessary."
14 A. The assistant for personnel, general and legal affairs,
15 General Matovic, would prepare orders and decrees about promotion of
16 officers that fell within the purview of the head of the military office
17 of President Lilic and that would be submitted to the head of the office,
18 and what fell within that purview were the ranks of generals. The
19 military office would then take those decrees to the president, and the
20 office of the Chief of General Staff did not receive these decrees,
21 because these ranks were beyond their jurisdiction.
22 Q. Another matter. It says the military office of the FRY
23 president, and then its duties are described, having first considered
24 their legal validity. And they prepare drafts of such documents
25 themselves if necessary. My now question is, do you know if the military
1 office of the FRY president had any legal officers qualified to review
2 documents for legality?
3 A. I don't know about that, but I know that in the civilian part of
4 his office, the FRY president had people who were able to do that.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this now for
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
10 Exhibit D474. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. In addition to the military office of the FRY president, which
14 other office did you communicate with and how often?
15 A. We communicated with the office of the president of Serbia,
16 President Milosevic, we had frequent contacts with them and with
17 Mr. Milosevic [as interpreted]. Less frequently but we were able to
18 establish contact with the office of the president of Montenegro. And in
19 its turn, the military office contacted as required the federal Ministry
20 of Foreign Affairs. They had no official communication with other
22 Q. Page 48, line 11, could you say again the last name of the
23 Chef de Cabinet of the president of Serbia?
24 A. Goran Milinovic. Milinovic. I'm sure about the last name.
25 Q. That's correct. Did you have communication, and how often, with
1 the Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
2 A. I'd forgotten about that. We had daily communication with them.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Lukic, who is Goran Milinovic? I'm
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Goran Milinovic, I will let the
6 witness explain.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Goran Milinovic was Chef de Cabinet
8 of the president of the Republic of Serbia
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. How often did the president of the Federal Republic
13 General Staff?
14 A. Mr. Lilic often visited the office of the Chief of the
15 General Staff and the Chief of the General Staff himself, and army units
16 in general. He was quite involved with the military.
17 Q. What do you mean by "often"?
18 A. Roughly twice a month.
19 Q. Judging by his contacts with you and other knowledge you may
20 have, what was President Lilic's attitude to the General Staff and to
21 General Perisic?
22 A. It was very correct, very fair. He had a lot of understanding
23 for the problems of the army and he had every wish to assist the army and
24 to strengthen the federal authorities.
25 Q. How often did the president of the Republic of Serbia
1 Mr. Milosevic, visit the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia and
2 General Perisic?
3 A. Very rarely. Only exceptionally, in fact. When he pleased and
4 several times he visited when the General Staff hosted the sessions of
5 the Supreme Defence Council.
6 Q. How often did you have occasion to meet President Milosevic aside
7 from his visits to the General Staff and how many times did that happen
8 at the time you were Chef de Cabinet?
9 A. Quite often relative to his visits.
10 Q. Where would that be?
11 A. In the residencies that we used for receiving guests in
12 Karadjordjevo and in Dobanovci, at ceremonies and receptions, joint
13 briefings, et cetera.
14 Q. What was the attitude of President Milosevic towards the Army of
16 about Perisic later.
17 A. It was our pervasive impression that President Milosevic had an
18 attitude towards the army that showed a lack of understanding and lack of
19 trust in the military leadership and the army as an institution. It was
20 certainly not a relationship of trust and co-operation on an equal
22 Q. What was his attitude towards the police compared to his attitude
23 towards the army?
24 A. He treated them much better, and that was obvious in terms of the
25 equipment and facilities made available to the police. He favoured the
1 police because the police belonged to the republic, and he had a certain
2 aversion towards the army which was a federal institution.
3 MR. LUKIC:
4 Q. I have to correct a slight error here. Page 50, line 4, the
5 witness said "Karadjordjevo" and "Dobanovci," these are two locations.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are going to have it to spell them again for
7 the stenographer.
8 THE INTERPRETER: K-a-r-a-d-j-o-r-d-j-e-v-o.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Interpreter. I think you were a
10 little too fast for the stenographer. Can you spell that again?
11 THE INTERPRETER: K-a-r-a-d-j-o-r-d-j-e-v-o.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then the next one.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And what is the name of the other
14 location, I better stay myself slowly. D-o-b-a-n-o-v-c-i.
15 Q. Now, General, can we talk a bit about these two facilities, what
16 are they and what is their connection to the office of the Chief the
17 General Staff?
18 A. These were federal buildings intended for purposes of
19 representation. They were not alone. There was also a villa at Tara and
20 a villa in Meljinka and they were part of the property under the Chief of
21 the General Staff. They were secured by the army. More specifically,
22 the corps of special units. They were frequently used to house
23 high-ranking delegations visiting the president of the FRY, Mr. Lilic,
24 and the president of Serbia
25 these facilities. The Chief of the General Staff used them the least.
1 Q. When there was an official visit to President Milosevic,
2 independently of the military office, if someone wanted to see Milosevic
3 and his office wanted to organise a meeting in one of these two
4 buildings, what was the role of the office there?
5 A. The office of the president of the republic would send a request
6 to the office of the Chief of the General Staff to have these buildings
7 prepared to accommodate the high-ranking delegation in question, and that
8 meant providing security arrangements, technical support, accommodation,
9 recreation, et cetera.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment. We need a
11 clarification on page 50, lines 10 and 11.
12 Q. To whom were these buildings subordinated?
13 A. At that time the office of the Chief of the General Staff. Later
14 they were subordinated to the Guards Brigade.
15 Q. But they were not the property of the office of the Chief of
16 General Staff?
17 A. No, they were not.
18 Q. I needed to clarify this for the record. Were you personally a
19 participant in any meetings organised between President Milosevic and the
20 leadership of Serbia
21 A. No, I was never present or a member of the delegation at any such
23 Q. Did you attend any meetings after these gatherings?
24 A. If I happened to be in that building after these meetings, I
25 would be perhaps invited to stay for dinner.
1 Q. If meetings were organised there between some military
2 delegations and General Perisic was present on one side, did you attend
3 such meetings?
4 A. If General Perisic attended military meetings, it was not a rule
5 that I should be present too, but I would attend whenever he put me on
6 the list and he requested my presence.
7 Q. All right. I asked you before who came when, and my next
8 question would be, did General Mladic visit the office of the Chief of
9 General Staff during your tenure?
10 A. General Mladic did come to the office of the Chief of the
11 General Staff.
12 Q. How often?
13 A. Very seldom, and he never stayed long. He visited probably only
14 in passing on his way to somewhere else. We would just send a car for
16 Q. And whom did he see at the General Staff?
17 A. He would only see General Perisic. I don't know that he ever saw
18 any other military officers.
19 Q. Did you have occasion to meet with General Mladic on his visits
20 to the General Staff?
21 A. Perhaps two or three times. Once in the early days when I just
22 came to the office of the General Staff, once when we hosted a meeting of
23 the Supreme Defence Council, and a third time after a ceremony promoting
24 cadets after graduation from military schools.
25 Q. Could you describe your meeting with General Mladic in the office
1 of General Perisic?
2 A. I don't have good memories of that meeting and if it's not really
3 necessary, I would not like -- I don't know if you would insist.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You would like to do that now or would you like to
6 do that after the break?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] After the break is all right.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at half past
9 12.00. Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to the private
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
16 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Now I would move to the subject of the collegium. What are the
12 collegiums of the Chief of General Staff? And first of all, I will ask
13 you who makes up the collegium of the Chief of General Staff of the
14 Yugoslav Army?
15 A. The collegium of the Chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav Army
16 is made up of the Chief of General Staff, the Deputy Chief of
17 General Staff, the sector chiefs who are simultaneously assistants to the
18 Chief of General Staff, and the chiefs of independent administrations.
19 Q. How often did the collegium meet?
20 A. According to plan, it was periodical; that is to say, we had
21 weekly meetings and outside of the plan as necessary.
22 Q. In addition to these regular collegiums and those held as
23 necessary, were there any other collegiums and who would attend these
24 meetings in such cases?
25 A. In addition to the regular meetings of the collegium, there were
1 also the meetings of the so-called expanded collegium of the Chief of
2 General Staff. In addition to the persons I named, now the army
3 commanders would also attend as well as the commander of the navy, the
4 commander of the RV and PVO, and units directly subordinated to the
5 Chief of General Staff.
6 Q. How often were these meetings held?
7 A. They were held periodically and regularly that was twice a year.
8 Q. As far as you know, were such collegium meetings also held before
9 you were appointed Chef de Cabinet?
10 A. I think they were.
11 Q. In your capacity as the Chef de Cabinet of the Chief of
12 General Staff, did you attend the collegium meetings once you were
13 appointed to this position?
14 A. I attended the collegium meetings. I also had the right to
15 participate in the discussion but I did not have the right to make any
16 decisions. I could not vote on any issues and take part in
18 Q. When you say "voting"?
19 A. Well, it means approving of something, adopting something.
20 Q. I wanted to ask you what was Perisic's position when decisions
21 were taken in terms of the opinions of the collegium. When decisions
22 needed to be taken, did he ask the members of the collegium for their
23 opinion and did he respect and take into account their positions?
24 A. General Perisic always allowed collegium members, he requested
25 them to prepare and to state their views and when he was assessing the
1 situation generally and within their own sectors, he always asked his
2 associates to state their opinion.
3 Q. Did you become a member of the collegium later on, and if so,
5 A. I became a member of the collegium of the Chief of General Staff
6 when I was appointed chief of the high military school centre and I was
7 at the same time an assistant of the Chief of General Staff in charge of
8 education, training, and scientific research and publications within the
9 Yugoslav Army.
10 Q. Did every collegium of the Chief of General Staff have a specific
11 form, and if so, how did one of these meetings look in terms of form?
12 A. Just like everything else in the army, the collegium of the
13 Chief of General Staff had a strict form. The Chief of General Staff
14 would open the meeting, he would briefly say what the purpose was, and
15 then he would give the floor to others according to certain order. First
16 of all to General Dimitrijevic who was the chief of the security
17 administration, then to General Krga who was chief of the intelligence
18 administration, and finally to sector chiefs, the operational and staff
19 sector and then others in their turn.
20 Q. And how did one collegium meeting end?
21 A. It would end by the Chief of General Staff summarising what was
22 said and he would also issue tasks and set out dead-lines for
23 implementing what was necessary.
24 Q. And when he issued the tasks at a collegium meeting, did that
25 imply that he would issue these tasks orally or that later on it would be
1 done in writing?
2 A. He would issue the tasks orally but then we would all process
3 them in writing for ourselves and turn them into plans and duties with
4 specific dead-lines in a -- according to specific form where it would
5 also be stated who the agents responsible for their implementation were.
6 Q. General, once you came to the office did you introduce any
7 novelties in terms of the technical form and protocol according to which
8 these collegium meetings were held?
9 A. I think I did because we wanted to have collegium meetings
10 without paperwork. We wanted to have visual presentations, and at a
11 later stage, we also introduced audio recordings of the collegium
13 Q. And for the internal needs of the office, did you do anything in
14 terms of these collegium meetings?
15 A. After listening to the audio recordings and after transcripts
16 were typed up, the office always extracted from that an internal document
17 which included the tasks issued during the collegium meetings. The
18 office was supposed to monitor this, and at the beginning of each
19 collegium meetings, the Chief of General Staff should be informed about
20 what of these tasks which were issued during a previous meeting were in
21 the meantime implemented or carried out.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see P2891. It is
23 a document which I didn't put on my list but during the proofing and in
24 the proofing note I did inform Mr. Harmon of the facts contained in this
25 document. And now, before presenting it, I received the approval of
1 Mr. Harmon to present this document, which is an OTP exhibit.
2 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is --
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, let us wait for the
6 English version to appear on the screen as well.
7 Q. What is this that we see on the screen right now? We can see
8 that there is a stamp of the office of the Chief of General Staff in the
9 upper-hand left corner of this document. Can you tell us what this is?
10 A. This a document that was drafted after the audio recording of the
11 collegium meeting was completed and this is a document which we would
12 make by extracting some information for our internal needs in order to
13 monitor the tasks and file this in our own archives so that we could
14 always check exactly what is contained, and we would always give the
15 reference to the audio recording and who processed it. We did it
16 internally within our office and this was our copy that we used just for
17 the needs of our office.
18 Q. Yes, I wanted --
19 A. For the needs of the office.
20 Q. When you say it was an internal document, can you say
21 specifically for whose needs was this document drafted internally?
22 A. For the office, for the Chief of General Staff and for other
23 members of the office, for the assistant and the deputy of the office and
24 the Chief of General Staff. So just for us, for internal use within our
25 office. We needed it for the protocol and to see what tasks had been
2 Q. All right. Thank you. I think that we have clarified that now.
3 Now I'll ask you what was the task of the office of the Chief of
4 General Staff when preparing a collegium meeting. What do the office
5 staff do and who do you have to communicate with to do that?
6 A. For the regular periodically held meetings, the sector
7 independent administration chiefs would submit to the office the
8 questions which they wished to be included on the agenda of the collegium
9 meetings. So these would be separate items on the agenda and there were
10 always also the standard items such as the assessment of the security and
11 intelligence and operational situation and then other items followed.
12 These would be the issues proposed by the sector chiefs and then we would
13 submit it for approval to the Chief of General Staff, and if he approved,
14 then that would be included in the agenda for that specific agenda, and
15 we would make a sort of plan of presentations in terms of the contents,
16 the time that was needed, the presentations and so and so forth.
17 Q. All right. I have concluded this topic, I would move to a
18 different one now.
19 General, did you have an opportunity to attend meetings with
20 foreign military delegations, let me ask you such a general question, I
21 mean with General Perisic, of course?
22 A. The answer is yes, I did attend a number of meetings with foreign
23 military representatives and I was in the company of General Perisic.
24 Q. I would focus on those which were held in the premises of the
25 General Staff and then later on we might move to some other meeting as
1 well. So let me ask you, first of all, did you have the chance to meet
2 some highly ranking officers? Let me begin with the French army. Who do
3 you remember as having visited the office and met with General Perisic?
4 A. First there was General de Lapresle, and then later on he was
5 Advisor de Lapresle. I saw him in both of these capacities. Then I also
6 met General Janvier and officers who came with him.
7 Q. Did you have a chance to meet General Douin?
8 A. I did not meet General Douin because when General Douin landed at
9 the airport, he did not wish to leave the aircraft and he did not come to
10 the office, so this was resolved in a different manner.
11 Q. I will ask you in general terms, the meetings you had with
12 de Lapresle and Janvier, what was the topic of discussion in these
13 meetings and what did you learn about their positions expressed during
14 these meetings?
15 A. The principle was always that the general or the delegation which
16 asked to be received by the Chief of General Staff would state the reason
17 for their visit and their assessment of the situation in their zones of
18 responsibility. They would also state their requests or their appeals or
19 whatever they had to ask the Chief of the General Staff and the Yugoslav
20 Army. They were always very decent in expressing the situation as they
21 saw it and the goals of their mission, and they always acted in a
22 military fashion, especially General Janvier. He always wanted to
23 co-operate. He wanted to hear our opinion and to see what was possible,
24 so trying to find common ground and perhaps trying to have some influence
25 to make sure that everything can be done peacefully and that they can
1 accomplish their own mission in peace.
2 Q. Let's try and be more precise. What mission, what tasks, what
4 A. Their mission was in the territory of the former Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, they always discussed the situation in the field and
6 how they see it as well as what their further plans were and what kind of
7 assistance they expected from us as the VJ.
8 Q. In terms of any VJ assistance, what did they ask for?
9 A. Well, they always wanted the chief to exert a certain degree of
10 influence so that the parties to the conflict would see their role as
11 neutral in order for them to be able to go about their task. In gist,
12 that was it. They always asked for understanding and they wanted to see
13 whether we could do something to influence the situation.
14 Q. To influence who in particular?
15 A. Usually to influence the leadership of Republika Srpska and the
16 VRS. They didn't try to ask us to influence the conduct of the Muslim
17 side, of course.
18 Q. What was General Perisic's position during such meetings?
19 A. General Perisic --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Harmon.
21 MR. HARMON: We are getting into an area that is not described in
22 the 65 ter summaries or are we getting into an area in the proofing
23 notes. This is a new and more detailed area and that 65 ter and the
24 proofing note merely mentions this witness was present with certain
25 French officers and no further details are provided.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Please bear with me, Your Honour. I
3 believe that in the proofing notes, in the proofing notes, Your Honours,
4 at page 2, we mentioned General Perisic's meetings with the French
5 generals. That summary was received by the Chamber -- just a moment. In
6 paragraph 18 -- sorry, paragraphs 17 and 18, therein we describe his
7 meetings with certain people from France
8 stated that Janvier left a very good impression with the witness. During
9 proofing it is not my obligation to disclose everything the witness said.
10 I simply indicated the topic in the proofing note disclosed to
11 Mr. Harmon, the topic of discussions with French representatives and I
12 believe this suffices for him to prepare his cross-examination and that
13 it was not at his detriment, especially having in mind that my
14 examination-in-chief of this witness will take at least another day or
15 two. And in that regard, I do not believe that this prevents Mr. Harmon
16 from researching this fact any further and to put his own questions
17 during cross-examination.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you're saying that you mentioned in your
19 proofing note -- first of all, let me go back. Earlier you said the
20 proofing notes at page 2 mentioned General Perisic's meeting with the
21 French generals and that summary was received by the Chamber. Do you
22 send proofing notes to the Chamber?
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no. The summary is what you
24 received but not the proofing notes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, as I understood Mr. Harmon's objection
1 was that, according to him, in your proofing note you said that the
2 witness was present when the French generals were there. In your
3 response you are saying you mentioned to Mr. Harmon the topic of
4 discussions with French representatives. Now, I don't have your proofing
5 note before me so I don't know whether you said he was present when the
6 French generals were there or whether you said there were discussions, so
7 I'm not able to rule. And you see, I have a problem or the Chamber has a
8 problem that -- with these objections that are raised based on a proofing
9 note which is a document that we don't receive. I don't see how the
10 Chamber can rule on such documents.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will read out paragraph 18 of the
12 proofing notes:
13 [In English] "The witness was present at the meetings with
14 Janvier, de Lapresle, Douin, Janvier, Douin. Janvier made an especially
15 good impression on" him. Borovic was among the forming of the delegation
16 visit in the Russia
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that it, do you confirm that?
18 MR. HARMON: Yes, I confirm that that's the extent of the
19 proofing note on -- in respect of these French generals.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then the objection is overruled.
21 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Your Honour, I don't want to revisit this
22 but my objection was that there's no discussion in this proofing note of
23 the content of that meeting other than there was a meeting and there was
24 an impression formed. There's no further details provided in this
25 proofing note or in any other proofing note that has been provided to us
1 or summary by the Defence in respect of this -- these meetings with the
2 French generals. That was the basis of my objection.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: First of all, you are revisiting the point. Okay.
4 So to say you don't want to revisit it, is not absolutely correct.
5 Secondly, I think if proofing note mentions that there are discussions
6 that are going to be heard, that were heard with the French generals,
7 surely it's just not for them to be together that we want to know, we
8 want to know what they talked about. And maybe you might have wanted to
9 say to your colleague yes, you are talking about discussions with French
10 generals in your proofing note but you are not telling us what was being
12 Now, it looks like it's a little too late in the day to make that
13 demand, isn't it?
14 MR. HARMON: I received a proofing note on the 19th of September
15 late in the afternoon, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Okay. Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can advise the Chamber of what can
18 be confirmed by Mr. Harmon if we are still on this topic. Should I offer
19 further arguments or should I go on with my questions?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber did rule, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Sorry.
22 Q. [Interpretation] General, my question was: What was
23 General Perisic's position during such meetings with the French generals
24 you've described?
25 A. Perisic always presented his position fairly and squarely to the
1 French generals, and he always put things the way they were by saying
2 that he had no control over the situation and that he was willing to use
3 his personal influence to impact the situation, but that he cannot
4 directly affect the behaviour of those in the field especially in the
5 areas of responsibilities of certain generals.
6 Q. When you were appointed Chef de Cabinet and later on, did you
7 have occasion to learn of General Perisic's meetings with General
8 Grachev, and did you meet with him as well?
9 A. First of all, I have to say that I saw General Grachev in Moscow
10 and later on in the General Staff. When visits were prepared by the
11 Chief of General Staff and the federal defence minister, Mr. Bulatovic, I
12 would be acquainted with any previous meetings and relationships between
13 the two armed forces. It was an obligation on the part of the office to
14 be acquainted with the relationship, the types of co-operation, and to
15 formulate our position for any such meetings, but this did not
16 necessarily have to be adopted at the meeting itself. In any case,
17 before any meetings, I was familiar with the position of foreign
18 representatives, especially Mr. Grachev. As regards the issues discussed
19 and the -- we discussed basically the same issues in Moscow with
20 General Grachev and Russian defence minister.
21 Q. What was General Grachev's position at the time?
22 A. When I was in Moscow
23 General Staff, he may have been appointed minister by that time, but in
24 any case, I think he was still in the position of chief because at that
25 time there were in the middle of the situation with Grozny and it made
1 the situation a bit more difficult. Although I may be mistaken, he may
2 have been appointed minister by that time. I'm trying to recall who
3 represented Russia
4 Q. You mentioned Grozny
5 A. In Chechnya
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter document
8 Q. General, it is tab 6 and we'll also have it on the screen. It is
9 General Perisic's letter dated the 29th of July, 1994, sent to the
10 minister of defence of the Russian Federation, General Grachev. The
11 document speaks for itself. It has to do with the talks about adopting
12 the group of the -- the plan of the Contact Group. Let's focus on the
13 middle part of the letter. General Perisic states:
14 "That is why I have invested and still am investing considerable
15 effort to persuade my friend, General Ratko Mladic, to use his great
16 authority to influence the political leadership of Republika Srpska to
17 make them accept the Contact Group peace plan, believing that fair
18 corrections would be made in the interest of the Serbian people.
19 Nevertheless, it should be borne in mind that General Mladic's influence
20 is limited because the political leadership of Republika Srpska will have
21 the final say." This is what the letter states.
22 Do you know what happened with the Contact Group plan in
23 August 1994 and what was the position of the leadership and the military
24 of Republika Srpska vis-a-vis the plan?
25 A. I'm not -- I haven't been informed of that as the Chef de
1 Cabinet, but I was one of the generals who was with the General Staff of
2 the army and I know that the plan was rejected by the leadership of the
3 RS. By that time, we had issued advice to have that accepted because the
4 VRS had been exhausted by the time and there was no point to continue the
5 war effort. But there was this constant lack of communication or
6 disagreement between the VRS and the Serb leadership in the RS as well as
7 the military and political leadership of Yugoslavia. Let me finish,
9 We believed in the General Staff that our assessment of the
10 situation was better, and that we had more information and better
11 analytical ability as well as better connections with the world, and that
12 we could see the situation far better than they could being -- because
13 they were in the midst of the war. We also supported the measures of the
14 international community. However, the leadership there believed that
15 they were more familiar with the situation in the field and that we did
16 not have sufficient understanding.
17 This was the root of the conflicts or the misunderstanding, and I
18 could basically see that General Mladic would not heed to
19 General Perisic's advice and that he was basically acting out as the
20 older acquaintance or friend of the two. We frequently analysed with
21 General Perisic how we should put our case to them as to convince them
22 that it was a better approach. In any case, the plan was finally
24 Q. When you say at page 67, line 24, you say the leadership did not
25 accept the proposal, what leadership?
1 A. Of the RS. They never accepted the position of our leadership
2 during the joint meetings held on the office premises.
3 Q. While we are on this topic, I forgot to ask you something,
4 actually it has to do with the last topic. Did anyone of the RS
5 leadership visit the office and General Perisic? I have in mind the
6 political leaders.
7 A. Professor Koljevic was frequently in the office, and before
8 Minister Buha travelled to Geneva
9 Q. Did they come to see Perisic personally or did they come to the
11 A. There was no reason for anyone to come to the office. They all
12 went to see the chief if he was there. In any case, they also came to
14 come to the office and then would go on to see other people, and I know
15 that Professor Koljevic met with Prince Karadjordjevic and that he
16 frequently discussed matters with him.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have an exhibit
18 number for this document, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
22 Exhibit D475. Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. While we were -- while we are still with the Russians, were you
25 part of any delegation on a visit to Moscow and you were visiting who?
1 A. Yes, we were visiting Moscow and the delegation consisted of
2 Minister Bulatovic, myself, I believe also the Chef de Cabinet of the
3 chief, perhaps the Chef de Cabinet of the minister as well, although I'm
4 not sure. It was not a large delegation. We had a definite set of
5 issues to discuss. There was, of course, an interpreter and we were
6 joined there by our envoy and the ambassador, Danilo Markovic.
7 Q. Could you tell us approximately when that visit took place?
8 A. I believe in the latter part of 1995.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up 01124D from the
10 Defence 65 ter list.
11 Q. This document does not bear a date and if we look at the last
12 page there's no signature either. Do you know anything about this
13 document? Do you know what it is?
14 A. It was our draft made during preparations. Our minister would
15 always carry a draft on such a visit whenever we initiated the visit.
16 It's a draft of the agreement the way we see it and, of course, during
17 the talks, it is further negotiated and harmonised and the final version
18 is translated, but of course, you don't start such a visit without a
19 draft. It was a working paper.
20 Q. Do you remember whether some sort of agreement with the Russian
21 Federation was ultimately signed during that visit?
22 A. I don't know whether the agreement as such was signed, but there
23 was always an Official Note signed and a communique after our talks with
24 Minister Grachev and the prime minister, Kozyrev.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see some writing, handwriting to the right of
1 the stamp just below the line on which somebody would sign. Would that
2 not be a signature?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have my own reading of this, but
4 perhaps the witness can tell us what that is below the stamp. If we can
5 zoom in on it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I'm addressing you because you are
7 interpreted as having said: "There's no date and no signature either on
8 this document."
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Oh, that's why I said this. If you
10 look at the first page, it's just a kind of verification of the document,
11 but if you look at the third -- in fact, this signature is not a
12 signature of the negotiator.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have no control of the pages. I'm looking at
14 the page that is before -- on the screen right now. I see some writing
15 that looks like a signature. Is that not it?
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, it isn't. If we can look at the
17 third page. I know you are asking me -- but that agreement was not
18 signed by the parties who were supposed to sign it. This is just a
19 signature confirming that the document is authentic, like a confirmation
20 of authenticity. But if you look at the last page, things become
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I think let's turn to the witness
23 because you are now testifying quite a bit.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we have a look at the third page then. Is
1 this the third page?
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Correct. In English it's page 3, but
3 it's not page 3 in B/C/S. We need the next page in B/C/S. Next page in
4 B/C/S. We need the end of the text. Right.
5 Q. Perhaps the witness can now explain all that we can see on the
6 screen. Mr. Borovic, go ahead.
7 A. This stamp and signature confirm on behalf of the person who let
8 you have this document, that all the pages are there, but the signatures
9 of the parties were to be affixed just below the lines that say "For the
10 government of the Russian Federation, for the federal government of the
11 SFRY." This was just written by the team that prepared this document.
12 Q. If the agreement had been concluded, where would the writing be?
13 Would there be any blank spaces?
14 A. There would be no blank spaces. You would see specific numbers
15 in the line that says the agreement was done in such and such a place on
16 such and such a date. These two lines would be filled.
17 Q. During that meeting in Moscow
18 of the parties were? Were the problems of the Republic of Serbian
19 Krajina discussed?
20 A. They were on the agenda, the problems concerning the Republic of
22 Q. What do you remember?
23 A. I remember everything about that. I remember, and I'll tell you
24 just about the finale. At the last meeting with the prime minister,
25 Kozyrev, which lasted 30 minutes, Prime Minister Kozyrev explicitly put
1 forward three questions. One, can the Republic of Serbian Krajina
2 itself left to its own devices. Since the minister spoke Russian and I
3 understand Russian, I understood what he said even before it was
4 interpreted and we had our own position prepared. Our reply, the
5 Republic of Serbian Krajina cannot defend itself left to its own devices.
6 The second question was what [as interpreted] did the Army of
8 Serbian Krajina. Our answer again was that the Army of Yugoslavia would
9 not interfere in the conflict of the Republic of Serbian Krajina
10 would not intervene militarily.
11 And I think the third question was would the leadership of the
12 Serbian Krajina come to some sort of agreement with the Republic of
14 three questions were very precise and we said no to all of them. And the
15 minister concluded that the Republic of Serbian Krajina would be no more.
16 Q. Why was your position at the time and why did you say to
17 Prime Minister Kozyrev of Russia
18 get involved in the conflict in Krajina? What were your arguments?
19 A. Our overall position was that the Army of Yugoslavia would not
20 get involved in any conflicts outside the borders of Yugoslavia
21 itself had never waged war outside its own territory. And the Army of
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please get an exhibit number
24 for this document.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, we can. Before we do, let me just understand
1 your answer, Mr. Borovic. You say "the JNA itself had never waged war
2 outside its own territory."
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: What year are we looking at hear? What year is
5 this discussion that you are taking place?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These discussions were in 1995, in
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you. The document is admitted into
9 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
11 Exhibit D476. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Did you ever visit the General Staff of Hungary, and if so, when
15 was that and who took part in that visit?
16 A. I was part of that delegation from the General Staff that visited
17 the General Staff of Hungary
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up from the 65 ter list
19 10 -- sorry 01066D.
20 Q. General, look at this document. Perhaps we should turn to page 3
21 to see who wrote it. Let's just wait for that page.
22 A. You can see the initials. Biljana Borovic and Sinisa Majstorovic
23 [as interpreted], that's a document I prepared for the chief.
24 Q. It was signed by?
25 A. The chief, Momcilo Perisic.
1 Q. Let's now go back to the previous pages. The document speaks for
2 itself but what is the gist of it, who was it sent to, what was the
3 purpose of this note?
4 A. We prepare our own notes and the Hungarian side prepares its own,
5 and before that we made a joint communique after the meeting. I can only
6 confirm that whatever is written here is indeed so because I wrote it
8 Q. Who was it sent to?
9 A. No one. It's our own document.
10 Q. Just a moment.
11 A. To whom was it addressed? Well, to our own authorities. We
12 always had to report to the president of the Supreme Defence Council,
13 that is, the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. We had to
14 report after every visit.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see page 2 in B/C/S.
16 Q. In what sense was it important for the position of the
17 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to co-operate with Hungary
18 A. It's always important. Hungary is our neighbour. There is a
19 large Hungarian minority in the north of Serbia. Hungary was at that
20 time preparing to become a member state of NATO. It had military
21 standards in its army that we were striving to match in the Army of
23 conflicts in Croatia
24 interest, to follow-up on the situation, to monitor events, to have a
25 good military co-operation, to have a direct communication without any
1 special demands or plans, whatever.
2 Q. Now on page 2 --
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the penultimate
4 paragraph in English.
5 Q. It says:
6 "Out of the areas of further bilateral co-operation, they
7 expressed their wish that the existing telephone communication, the
8 so-called hot line, would be maintained and made more reliable."
9 A. We already mentioned one type of hot line and they had misgivings
10 about the security of this hot line because our communication systems
11 were disrupted in certain areas. Some of them remained behind enemy
12 lines and we promised to check on it and all the hot lines were indeed
14 Q. Let us look at the last part of the document.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's the same page in B/C/S and in
16 English we have to move to the next one. Concerning intelligence.
17 Q. It says "chief of intelligence." I'm especially interested in
18 the last sentence. Was it customary for intelligence services of
19 neighbouring countries to co-operate, and if so, why was it important?
20 A. Normally the countries that are not in conflict co-operate at the
21 level of their intelligence services, especially if they have a good
22 military co-operation.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have an exhibit number
24 for this document.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
3 Exhibit D477. Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Please bear with me, Your Honours. I
5 will change tack slightly. I will go back in terms of chronology and
6 would return to certain topics at a later point.
7 Q. I wanted to ask you something about Operation Flash. We've heard
8 evidence of it being underway in May 1995. And do you remember how that
9 attack on Western Slavonia affected the position of the military
11 A. Well, it had a negative impact for sure.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which military leadership do you have in mind,
13 Mr. Lukic?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I meant the VJ.
15 Q. How did those events impact on the position of the VJ?
16 A. I can tell you that the Army of Yugoslavia always saw such
17 events, and this one in particular, as a further threat to the security
18 of Yugoslavia
19 conflict closer to our borders. This amounted to a new security
20 situation which was more complex than the previous one.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter document
23 Q. This is an intelligence bulletin of the 2nd administration of the
24 General Staff of the VJ dated the 5th of May, 1992.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to the next page
1 in both versions.
2 Q. I believe I asked you in -- during previous session about the
3 author of this document. Where does it come from?
4 A. It came from our 2nd intelligence administration of the General
5 Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia
6 Q. What does the document say about Operation Flash?
7 A. Well, it recognises the existing situation and offers further
8 assessment of developments relative to or detrimental to the security of
9 the FRY.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me check if the paragraph I'm
11 looking for in the English version is on this page. I believe it is the
12 next page in the English version. One more page, please. The last
13 paragraph, Your Honours. Before item 1.3, it is the middle of the page
14 in English. Yes.
15 Q. In the B/C/S, it says -- General, I'm reading it out now. It
17 "On the other hand, the state and military leadership of the RSK
18 burdened with internal conflicts, personal and other interests, had not
19 undertaken everything necessary in order not to, firstly, fall for
20 Croatian provocations and, secondly, to make all the preparations to
21 successfully repel the aggression."
22 Who did General Krga get this information from which he later
23 entered into the bulletin?
24 A. As any other intelligence service, his service also received
25 information from his bodies and from the units he was in contact with.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to the next page in both
3 versions, please. The next page in the B/C/S. It is page 4 so one more,
4 sorry. Yes, this one. It is page 5 in the English. Sorry, page 6.
5 Q. I'm interested in the first paragraph of 1.4, "Experiences."
6 Whose assessment is this?
7 A. Also that of the 2nd administration.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we receive an exhibit number for
9 this document, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
13 Exhibit D478. Thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. General, in the summer of 1995, there seems to have been an
17 incident in Markale market in Sarajevo
18 A. I did and so did the world.
19 Q. What did you hear at the time?
20 A. We heard that a shell landed at the market and that there were
21 numerous victims. This initial information was followed by other
22 information. Our intelligence administration immediately offered its
23 assessment and the competent organs in the General Staff considered it,
24 trying to pin-point the location where the shell had come from and what
25 the reason for that was. As of the very beginning, it didn't seem to be
1 a plausible explanation; that is, that the shell had arrived from the
2 positions where the Serb forces were.
3 Q. Let me stop you there. My first question is whether this was
4 actually a controversy among the public as to the origin of the shell?
5 A. Yes, this was a controversial topic.
6 Q. Was it also broached by the media?
7 A. Yes, it was so in the media and intelligence services usually
8 know how it works.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we next please have 65 ter
10 document 01087D.
11 Q. Again we have an intelligence bulletin, this one is number 28,
12 and it is dated September 1995. Who authored this document?
13 A. It was offered by the 2nd administration of the General Staff and
14 its chief, and by its chief.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to the next page, please.
16 Q. It says here Markale 2 orchestrated by the USA and France
17 some pieces of information are contained therein which speaks for
18 themselves. At that time -- or, rather, let me put it in a more general
19 way. Concerning different types of information you received, what
20 information was more important and which were less important in your
22 A. The highest degree of authenticity and reliability was that
23 offered by our 2nd administration.
24 Q. If you were to assess the quality of a certain piece of
25 information and assign, say, grades to information coming from various
1 sources, including the intelligence administration, how would you grade
2 their information in situations such as this one?
3 A. Well, so as not to lecture here but I'll try to put it this way,
4 if there is a piece of information coming from the 2nd administration and
5 if I were to grade it with a 3, then if I were faced with a piece of
6 information from the media, I would assign it a grade of .25.
7 Q. How much did you trust the media at the time?
8 A. The army never trusted the media because they are prone to
9 propaganda, sensationalism, and under the influence of those who control
10 them and pay them. We, of course, considered those sources but we always
11 tasked the 2nd administration to verify any information coming from the
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me correct something for the
15 Q. If you graded security administration information with a 3, what
16 grade would you give to media information?
17 A. .25, in terms of importance of that information and its weight.
18 Q. Please repeat. Just the figure.
19 A. .25, or 0.25.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next page of the document,
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say that again, Mr. Lukic. Oh, okay.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted the end of the
1 Q. The last two paragraphs, please read them and I'll have a
2 question for you. Does what is stated therein reflect your recollection
3 of what followed the incident at Markale concerning air-strikes on the
4 positions of Bosnian Serbs?
5 My question is this: Do you know what happened following the
6 incident? In one sentence and then we'll discuss it further tomorrow.
7 A. I remember that no proper investigation was carried out and no
8 credible expert opinion was provided by international experts. It was
9 somewhat surprising to hear that the international community did not set
10 up a team to investigate it.
11 Q. Was it followed shortly afterwards by a military intervention?
12 A. Yes, Operation Deliberate Force.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document and I
14 suggest we adjourn for the day.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
16 please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
18 Exhibit D479. Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 Mr. Borovic, we have not finished with your testimony. We cannot
21 carry on for the day, we have to break for the day. You are still on the
22 witness-stand, therefore you may not discuss the contents of this case
23 with anybody, and least of all with the Defence team.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then the matter stands
1 adjourned to tomorrow morning at 9.00, same courtroom. Court adjourned.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.
3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of
4 September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.