Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1247

1 Thursday, 7 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please,

6 and good morning to you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. Same advisory to the accused,

10 that at any time you're not receiving interpretation, please draw our

11 attention straight away. I see just one change in the Nikolic team. Mr.

12 Nicholls is here as well, okay. So any preliminaries? Yes, Madam

13 Fauveau?

14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all I'd like

15 to tell you that Mr. Petrusic is now with the Defence team of General

16 Miletic as a legal adviser. This is the first thing. Second thing, it is

17 somewhat embarrassing for the Defence, it has to do with the next witness,

18 Mr. Ruez. Indeed, we realised that we had not received all the testimony

19 or the previous statements made earlier on by Mr. Ruez. He testified in

20 four cases, Krstic, Blagojevic, Erdemovic, and Mladic and Karadzic.

21 Further to Rule 61 proceedings. We received the Krstic and Blagojevic

22 testimony transcripts but we did not for Karadzic and Mladic. We also did

23 not receive his testimony in the Erdemovic case in B/C/S. We got it in

24 English but in the in B/C/S. He's a rather important witness. And it is

25 somewhat embarrassing as I said because the Defence would not like to ask

Page 1248

1 for the proceedings to be stayed, but on the other land, it seems

2 difficult to start his testimony before the accused were able to read his

3 previous testimony transcripts in a language that they understand, in

4 B/C/S.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. It's my understanding the

7 testimony from Erdemovic that Ms. Fauveau speaks of, they've had for I

8 think over a year or two, so we are getting that audio as soon as

9 possible, though, but that is something that I think both sides missed.

10 The Rule 61 hearing, we -- several people testified briefly at that and we

11 caught everyone but somehow Mr. Ruez slipped through the cracks. That was

12 public testimony that he did in 1996 before any of us were here and Ms.

13 Fauveau is absolutely right and she did find that in the record, the

14 public record. And we have been able to give that to her in English and

15 we are getting that B/C/S audio recording as soon as possible. I hope to

16 have CDs today to give to people so that over the next week or so, while

17 Mr. Ruez is testifying, that they will be able to review that. It's

18 relatively short, and it's Mr. Ruez speculating about things, but it is

19 important that they have it and we will get them to them as soon as

20 possible.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. I think the position is

22 easy enough to handle. First of all I wish to apologise to you, Mr.

23 Petrusic but this column has stood in the way so I couldn't see you. And

24 welcome to this Tribunal, Mr. Petrusic.

25 MR. PETRUSIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to my

Page 1249

1 learned friends from the other side. There is just one correction for the

2 transcript though, my name is Nenad Petrusic.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Fauveau, that being said, are you

4 withdrawing your motion appealing against the registrar's decision?

5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, no, because Mr. Petrusic is a

6 legal adviser. He has been a legal adviser for a year but he's not a

7 co-counsel. As a result, he cannot perform all the duties.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. I just wanted to clarify

9 that. The other thing is this: Basically, if we adhere to the time

10 schedule that has been indicated by the Prosecution for witness Ruez, and

11 also that indicated by each one of you, we are basically talking of

12 another two weeks before your turn comes up. So by which time I suppose

13 this shortcoming would have been addressed and remedied.

14 If as we go along, you see that it's not, then please draw our

15 attention immediately and we will take action. On the other hand, I can't

16 emphasise enough, Mr. McCloskey, that you attend to this, the sooner the

17 better, because otherwise I would -- I would obviously then have to accept

18 that there is a problem which would require some kind of remedy on our

19 part. So all right, for the time being I think we can leave it at that.

20 I think we can bring the witness in, if there are no further matters to be

21 addressed.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, for the record, I'm sure the Defence

23 knows I was joking when I said Mr. Ruez was speculating.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: They take you very seriously, actually.

25 Incidentally I barely need to repeat what I stated yesterday, that today

Page 1250

1 we are still sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis(A). All right. Thank you.

2 [The witness entered court]


4 [Witness answered through Interpreter]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Hasic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I welcome you again to this Tribunal.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We had a long session yesterday. Today, please God,

12 it will be shorter. It will be shorter. And I suppose that within the

13 next hour or so, you would be able to enjoy the brief break that you asked

14 for before you return back home.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. It will be as you say.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. I just wanted to remind you

17 that yesterday you made a solemn declaration before us that in the course

18 of your testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth and

19 nothing but the truth, and I just wanted to confirm to you that you don't

20 need to repeat it again today because it still holds good.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It holds for as long as I'm in

22 court.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So I thank you. I'm going to hand you to Mr.

24 Kergvic -- no, Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Stojanovic, who is appearing for

25 accused Borovcanin, and hopefully he will conclude his cross-examination

Page 1251

1 within the next ten minutes or so.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hasic.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. In order to continue I just wanted to remind you briefly with a

7 sentence where we broke off yesterday with our cross-examination. If you

8 remember, you said that you had passed the first check-point in Potocari?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That about 150 to 200 people were being let through there.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That men were being -- men, women, and children were being allowed

13 to pass there.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then some 15 metres farther, there was another check-point

16 where men were separated from the women and children.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you were separated from your family at that second

19 check-point?

20 A. Yes, at the second one, and I was turned into the house, told to

21 go there.

22 Q. And there you were told that you are going to be interrogated,

23 after which you would be transferred to Tuzla; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, but some women were crying, they didn't want the men to go.

25 They said, no, it will be just a short interrogation and then they will be

Page 1252

1 sent to Tuzla, but obviously this didn't happen. They would always say

2 one thing and do something else.

3 Q. Who told you that? Did anyone tell you that personally?

4 A. I heard from the soldiers who were directing us where to go, just

5 a brief interrogation, it's going to be, and then you're going to go to

6 Tuzla. This is what a Serbian soldier was telling the people.

7 Q. After spending an hour or two at that house, you were transferred

8 to the elementary school in Bratunac; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, the Vuk Karadzic school.

10 Q. You left your food bag at the entrance to the school?

11 A. Yes, the bags with food and whatever else people had in their

12 bags.

13 Q. Can you remember if you had your identification documents with

14 you, your ID card?

15 A. No. I didn't. It was left in Srebrenica.

16 Q. Did you have any identification documents with you?

17 A. No, I didn't. Some of the things like that were left at home in

18 the village. When you're fleeing you don't think of anything else other

19 than saving your life. When you flee everything else is left behind.

20 Q. And that house in Potocari, was food taken away from anyone, ID,

21 bags?

22 A. No, not there. There they were proceeding quite nicely, until the

23 separation took place. When the separation happened, as soon as we came

24 to Bratunac, it was completely different. They were angry. That's when

25 the killing started, the beatings, people being taken out. All of these

Page 1253

1 things started happening then, as soon as we arrived to the Vuk Karadzic

2 school in Bratunac.

3 Q. If I understand you correctly, there was no mistreatment at the

4 house in Potocari. It started happening in Bratunac only?

5 A. No. I didn't see anything like that at the house. There was just

6 that one man who was looking, who was requesting money and this one man

7 who gave it to him. There was no harassment there. There was no

8 separation. Soldiers were outside. They were not inside with us. The

9 soldiers were outside separating people but they were not inside with us

10 to interrogate us or to mistreat us. They had different tasks to perform.

11 They were not sitting inside with us so they didn't mistreat us there.

12 Q. And at the end, just one more question, Mr. Hasic. You spoke

13 about that yesterday in response to questions by Their Honours. You

14 described this policeman who entered the Bratunac school. Do you remember

15 that?

16 A. Yes. I remember that very well.

17 Q. He was wearing a blue police uniform?

18 A. Blue uniform, white belt, white holster, a gun, white gun holster.

19 I cannot say what kind of a policeman he is, whether he was a military or

20 a civilian policeman. It's not clear to me what he was. He was a member

21 of some kind of police, though, because he had this belt.

22 Q. This is what I want to ask you about, that blue uniform of his.

23 Was it multi-coloured or was it of one colour?

24 A. It was a uniform of just one colour.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hasic.

Page 1254

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

2 questions.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Stojanovic.

4 Madam Fauveau? Madam Fauveau will be cross-examining you. And

5 she is appearing for General Miletic.

6 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I have a few questions for you with regard

8 to what you experienced in Potocari and Bratunac. When you were in

9 Potocari, you did not see personally any murders, is this right?

10 A. I didn't see, but I did hear people outside screaming, the people

11 that were taken outside.

12 Q. Sir, and when you were in Bratunac, you did not witness any

13 murders either, personally, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you were separated from your family in Potocari, in the house

16 where you were taken to, you didn't see anything wrong there, is this

17 right?

18 A. [No interpretation]

19 Q. Can it be said that on the 11th of July you left Srebrenica before

20 the Serbs entered the city?

21 A. I left earlier. Had I waited there, I wouldn't have left the town

22 at all. My bones would have been there still.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic, is there anything wrong?

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I think so the answer of the witness is not

25 recorded in the transcript because here it's page 8, line 16. There were

Page 1255

1 two questions posed by Mrs. Fauveau and first was when you were separated

2 from your family in Potocari in the house where you were taken to, you

3 didn't anything wrong there; is that right? And then after that, the

4 witness answered, yes. And his answer was not recorded. So can it be

5 said is the next question.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So, Mr. Hasic, you've heard Mr.

7 Lazarevic's intervention. You were asked by Madam Fauveau --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: -- whether you saw anything wrong in Potocari when

10 you were separated from your family.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that house. I didn't see

12 anything, as far as the house is concerned. But I heard from others that

13 that they were taking some people outside, behind the house, but this is

14 something that I heard from others. I didn't see it. For as long as I

15 was in the house, no one was beating anyone, no one was mistreating

16 people. So as far as the house is concerned, it was all right. After an

17 hour and a half or two we were transferred to Bratunac and this is where

18 they started. We left our bags there and then they started to beat us.

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Sir, is it right to say that the UNPROFOR organised the evacuation

21 of the people from Srebrenica in Potocari on the 11th of July 1995?

22 A. I don't know who organised that. I know that there were two

23 buses. We got into the buses. It was probably organised by the Serb

24 army. The buses and then to Bratunac, because the UNPROFOR was -- they

25 had their hands tied at the time. They were not free to do what they

Page 1256

1 wanted.

2 Q. Sir, when you left Srebrenica to go to Potocari, the Serbian army

3 was not present in Srebrenica, is this right?

4 A. At the beginning, in the Petric area of town, there were bullets

5 flying constantly and then also there was constant shelling, shells were

6 falling in the town and around the town as well. No one asked whether

7 there were women there, children, who was there. They were shelling the

8 town. They were shelling civilians. This was ethnic cleansing. We all

9 know this.

10 Q. Sir, did UNPROFOR evacuate you from Srebrenica to Potocari on the

11 11th of July 1995?

12 A. Yes. As long as the UNPROFOR was just below the hospital, they

13 brought out the wounded, they placed them on the trucks. I remember there

14 were two trucks with the wounded. The UNPROFOR people were there and the

15 trucks were moving slowly. They couldn't move fast because of the people.

16 It was a very long column that went to Potocari. The column perhaps had

17 already arrived at Potocari but there were people still in Srebrenica that

18 were part of the column. The road was full of people. It wasn't a column

19 where you would have one person walking behind another. The whole road

20 was full of people.

21 Q. When you left Srebrenica on that day, on the 11th of July 1995, in

22 order to go to Potocari, you did not intend to stay in Potocari forever,

23 is this right?

24 A. It wasn't my intention to stay there. Why would I stay in

25 Potocari? If I had wanted to stay I would have stayed in Srebrenica in my

Page 1257

1 house. I would have stayed there. Why would I stay in Potocari?

2 Q. Intended to go to Tuzla, didn't you?

3 A. I did have the intention but it was by force. I had to go. Had I

4 not gone, I would be in a mass grave in Potocari now and they did find two

5 mass graves there. It was better to leave, to save my life when I could.

6 If not, then that would be it.

7 Q. You intended to go as early as the 12th of July, didn't you?

8 A. Yes, I did intend to go had they wanted to take me. But they

9 didn't want to take me so you had to wait and see where you would be taken

10 to, whether to a place where you would perish or somewhere where you could

11 survive. They were telling us one thing and doing another.

12 Q. Is it not right to say that on the 12th of July 1995, in Potocari,

13 you could not make it to the buses because you didn't want to have to push

14 and shove in the crowd?

15 A. It was very crowded, and I didn't see any atrocities that first

16 night so I wasn't in a hurry and it was very crowded. The second night,

17 when I saw the atrocities, what was being done, how things were being

18 done, then the next day, this was a Thursday, there was a very big crowd.

19 You couldn't really go through. I was travelling maybe from the morning

20 until the afternoon, until 2.00 in the afternoon, and I covered perhaps

21 just 100 metres, until I reached this check-point where I was supposed to

22 be to go through, to pass. So many people were all trying to get there.

23 Many people fainted because of the heat, because of the crowd. There were

24 fainting, then the UNPROFOR people were taking them away or they were

25 being taken to the UNPROFOR so they could get first aid, something being

Page 1258

1 taken to the UNPROFOR so they could get first aid, something like that.

2 Q. Can it be said that even on the 13th of July nobody forced you to

3 go to the check-point?

4 A. The military did. As long as their shells were falling, that

5 meant that whoever remained there didn't survive. That needs to be made

6 clear, be it a child, a woman, a man, regardless. There were some people

7 who were infirm, who were ill. They were unable to move. They never went

8 anywhere. Why do you think there are so many mass graves everywhere, if

9 all those people weren't killed? You're trying something --

10 Q. Is it right to say that in the day, on the 12th of July, Serbs

11 took bread to Potocari?

12 A. On the 12th, yes.

13 Q. Also took water there?

14 A. They brought water to the people there, and they would throw food

15 to the people, if that's what you're asking. As for water, people would

16 bring water for themselves. They would go and fetch it in bottles,

17 containers, whatever they had. This was while I was in Potocari, while I

18 was there, within the compound.

19 Q. Sir, is it not right to say that you still had food with you when

20 you got to Bratunac?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer that question. If he's already stated

22 that when he arrived in Bratunac they took his food away, why are you

23 asking the question?

24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And when you went to Bratunac with the food, did your family in

Page 1259

1 Potocari still have some food with them?

2 A. Well, they had a little bit.

3 Q. Sir, are you sure that you had to leave your food before you

4 entered the school in Bratunac?

5 A. Definitely, 100 per cent so, because if somebody ordered you to do

6 something you had to do it. If you failed to do it, they would hit you

7 with a rifle butt on your back, so you would have to keep quiet.

8 Q. You testified before this Tribunal in the Blagojevic case on the

9 14th of July 2003, page 1182 and you said this: [In English] "And there

10 we got to the school Vuk Karadzic. That is the name of the school. When

11 we got to the school, we all had to leave our bags if we had any and take

12 the food with us." [Interpretation] Is this your statement?

13 A. That's not correct. The food remained there and the bags. Where

14 was I supposed to put the food? Was I supposed to put it in my pockets?

15 No. It remained there in the bags. They made us leave the bags. That is

16 to say they didn't give us our food to eat. They didn't bring us any

17 food, because they wanted us to die of hunger so that when they were

18 leading people away, we would be subdued, our hands were tied on our backs

19 and they were armed. We were totally subdued, unable to provide any

20 resistance. This lasted for three or four days. We had no food at all.

21 We were half dead by then.

22 Q. Could you tell me who told you that the school where you were in

23 Bratunac was the Vuk Karadzic school?

24 A. Others who knew what the school was called told me that, the

25 people who had attended that school, who went to that school, the students

Page 1260

1 of that school. They used to be the students at that school. It's an old

2 school now and it's been abandoned. They built a new school now because

3 in this old school, they had prisoners there. I asked other people what

4 the school was called and the people who knew that told me, Vuk Karadzic.

5 And there is an elementary school there.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Hasic and Madam Fauveau, what's more

7 important is the time that you came to know that that was indeed the Vuk

8 Karadzic school. Was it at the same time you were being detained there,

9 that you got there, or was it later on that you came to know about that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know it then. I found that

11 out subsequently. I said I was in that school and I don't know what it's

12 called, and people then told me that the school was called Vuk Karadzic.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Madam Fauveau.

14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Sir, when you were in the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac, in the

16 room where you were, were there people you knew?

17 A. There were people. There were my people there, Muslims. As for

18 Serbs, they were the army, and I didn't know them. I'm telling you as it

19 is. I can't tell you I knew that soldier or this soldier. I didn't. I

20 didn't know any of them. Only one of them told me that he was from the

21 village called Gnjena. This was the policeman who beat this man. Then

22 the soldier from Gnjena fetched a hose so that the policeman could beat

23 this man with a hose. And I knew that he was from Gnjena because at one

24 point he asked, "Do you know anybody who lived in my house in Gnjena?"

25 This is how I originally learned that he was from the village of Gnjena.

Page 1261

1 Q. Among the Muslims who were with you in that room, was there

2 anybody you knew?

3 A. I knew about two of them, I think. They were sort of my

4 neighbours.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, your neighbours were in your hometown or

6 in Srebrenica? Where?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the place where I come from, they

8 were from neighbouring villages. I recognised these two men and I knew

9 them. Not that I just recognised them. I knew them from before.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So you're using the word "neighbours" in

11 the sense that they came from neighbouring villages, not in the sense that

12 they lived next door to you?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, neighbouring villages, other

14 villages, but our villages are small, they are not large. Perhaps there

15 are 20 to 30 houses in any given village.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Madam Fauveau. And my apologies to

17 you for interrupting you.

18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

19 Q. When you were in the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac, your

20 brothers were not with you, were they?

21 A. I didn't see any there. As for Pilica, I saw one.

22 Q. I'm only talking about Bratunac. I'm only talking about Bratunac.

23 A. I didn't see any of them there, not in that room. Perhaps they

24 were in some other rooms, because people were leaving Potocari and going

25 on for four or five days. They were travelling on that road going through

Page 1262

1 Bratunac.

2 Q. At any rate, you cannot say with any certainty that one of your

3 brothers was killed in Bratunac, is this right?

4 A. I can't say, because they were found in Pilica, in mass graves

5 there. Last year, I buried one of them on the 11th of July, and the

6 second one I buried this year on the 11th of July. They were both found

7 in Pilica. Both of them were older than me. One was by five years older

8 and the other one seven.

9 Q. -- were killed. Sir, excuse me, I do not deny the fact that they

10 were killed. What I'm asking you is whether you knew whether they were

11 killed in Bratunac or not.

12 A. Not in Bratunac.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Soljan?

14 MS. SOLJAN: It was asked and answered, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that they were killed in

17 Bratunac when they were found in a mass grave in Pilica. It means that

18 they were killed there.

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Sir, let me come back to Potocari. Yesterday, transcript page 7,

21 you stated that you spent the first night outside in Potocari. Is this

22 right?

23 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

24 Q. You also testified that you had been separated from your family.

25 You had lost them that first night, is this right?

Page 1263

1 A. Yes. I got separated from them. I thought that they were

2 outside. And I didn't find them until the following day.

3 Q. On the 20th of March 1996, you made a statement. Can it be shown

4 to the witness? It is Exhibit 7 -- 712. Page 1 of the statement, first

5 paragraph, second sentence, you stated this:

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you please make sure the witness is

7 able to see this? You can see from here. Okay. Thank you.

8 Yes. Go ahead, Madam Fauveau.

9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

10 Q. It is the second sentence in the first paragraph. This is what

11 you stated: [In English] "My family and other civilians, I spent the night

12 in Potocari in the factory buildings." [Interpretation] Do you remember

13 making this statement?

14 A. The first night, the family was in the factory building. I was

15 outside. And then the second night, all of us were outside. That's the

16 only way it could be. No other way.

17 Q. There's a signature at the bottom of the statement. Can it be

18 shown to the witness? Sir, can you see the signature?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it yours?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it right that in this statement you stated that you had spent

23 the first night together with your family inside?

24 A. Not the first night. It was outside. I know that I was outside.

25 I know that I slept outside.

Page 1264

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau, what you have in these first two

2 paragraphs there is what he has been basically testifying over an entire

3 day yesterday and already about an hour this morning. So it's what I

4 would call a supercondensation of -- so let's not be particular.

5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I'll move

6 on to something else.

7 Q. Yesterday you said that you heard bombing when you were in

8 Potocari, is this right?

9 A. I heard the shells falling, yes. I heard that. Falling amidst

10 the crowd in Potocari. That's how it was.

11 Q. And can you remember that yesterday, on page 54 of yesterday's

12 transcript, you stated, [In English] "Around the facility, around the

13 people, around all the buildings, not just one building."?

14 A. These shells were landing on the people, around the crowd, all

15 over the place, landing amid the buildings, in an area which perhaps

16 covered one kilometre. That's how it usually was. Actually, they weren't

17 landing in between the people, no. They were landing around the people,

18 to ensure that the crowd stayed together, that people wouldn't disperse.

19 That's what I heard and that's probably how it was.

20 Q. This shelling, did you hear it only during the first night or also

21 during the second night?

22 A. I heard it the first night, when they descended into Potocari. On

23 the second night, I didn't hear it. I only heard individual shots and

24 bursts of fire, and I could hear people moaning and screaming outside,

25 which means that on the second night, they were taking people outside and

Page 1265

1 firing at them from rifles.

2 Q. What you have just said, that they were shooting at people with

3 rifles, you did not see it personally, is this right?

4 A. I didn't see it, but you have to be crazy not to realise what's

5 going on when people scream, moan, groan, and then all of a sudden the

6 sounds stop. I didn't see it with my own eyes but you have to know, you

7 must realise what had gone on then, and then later on they found mass

8 graves.

9 Q. Sir, before Srebrenica fell, yesterday, on page 8 or rather 6 of

10 the transcript, you said that humanitarian aid would sometimes arrive in

11 Srebrenica. Do you know who was in charge of distributing humanitarian

12 aid when it would come to Srebrenica?

13 A. I wouldn't know that. I didn't inquire about that. I had this

14 cow and I needed it for the milk, for my family, for grandchildren and so

15 on, and there were some people who were distributing humanitarian aid when

16 it arrived, yes, that's how it was.

17 Q. And do you know that part of this humanitarian aid was distributed

18 to the army, to the ABiH, that was stationed in Srebrenica?

19 A. I don't know that. I only know that it went to the warehouse.

20 Now, as to whether there existed a separate warehouse for the military, I

21 don't know that either.

22 Q. Do you know where the headquarters of the ABiH was in Srebrenica?

23 A. I don't know that either, because I didn't go to the headquarters.

24 I wasn't supposed to go there. They didn't need me. I wasn't a soldier.

25 As I told you, I looked after my cow. I made sure that it had enough food

Page 1266

1 so that it would provide food for my grandchildren.

2 Q. Sir, your sons, were they not members of the ABiH?

3 A. One went to Zepa only to get food. He went there several times,

4 to bring flour. He had four young children. So he wasn't involved. Many

5 people didn't even have a rifle. They had no weapons. The other son did

6 go sometimes. He went to dig trenches. They asked him to go and he would

7 go, dig a trench and then come back home. So that in return, he would

8 receive some flour, perhaps five kilograms of flour, for being involved.

9 He did it for the food.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Hasic, your answer is of course very informative

11 but it doesn't really answer the question that was put to you. The

12 question was a very direct one and that is whether -- it wasn't whether

13 they did any work related to the military or the ABiH but whether they

14 were members, members of the ABiH, whether they were enrolled in the ABiH,

15 in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So forget that one went to Zepa and

16 the other one went to dig trenches sometimes and got some flour in return

17 but were either or both members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at any

18 time before --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, now that you are

20 asking it in this way, then I'll tell you that the younger one was

21 involved, because if somebody attacks you, wouldn't you defend yourself?

22 Everybody defends themselves when attacked. If you were to step on an

23 ant, the ant would bite you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And what was his name, this younger son who

25 was involved in the army?

Page 1267

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was killed. You have to know

2 that. He was killed. He's gone.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: But what was his name?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sead Hasic, if you really want to

5 know. He's dead. Are you interested in a dead man? They haven't found

6 him yet. He isn't in any grave.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Hasic. Yes, Madam Fauveau, please

8 continue.

9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Your son Hasic, Sead, was born in 1970, wasn't he?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Your other son, Hasic, Sadik, was he born in 1961?

13 A. No. That's not true. Who told you that? In 71? That's true.

14 Q. Sir, who is the younger of the two?

15 A. I found him and buried him.

16 Q. Who is the younger of the two, Sead or Sadik?

17 A. It's entirely clear to you. Why are you asking me that, then?

18 Sead is younger, naturally.

19 Q. Could you tell me when your son Sadik was born?

20 A. In 1961.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have a problem of interpretation here.

22 Because as I read the transcript, I'm soon coming to you, Ms. Soljan, when

23 I read the transcript when it was put to him he was born in 61 he said no,

24 that's not correct, then he said 71, that's true, which would make Sadik

25 the younger of the two. Now he's --

Page 1268

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1971.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Who was born in 1971?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1971, nobody was born.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Soljan?

5 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, I just wanted to make an objection to

6 the relevance of this line of questioning.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the line of questioning he -- previously he

8 said the younger of the two was a member of the army and the way it was

9 going, it was obvious that Sead couldn't be the younger of the two. It

10 would have been the elder of the two. So this is this is why we allowed

11 the question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who told you that?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Soljan. Yes, Madam Fauveau,

14 can we go to the next series of questions, please?

15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Sir, could you allow for the possibility that Hasic Sadik, your

17 other son, was also a member of the ABiH?

18 A. He wasn't. He never went into any combat. That's true. You can

19 think what you want but he never went into any action. I know that for a

20 fact.

21 Q. Even in 1992, he wasn't a member then of the Armija?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could I submit a

25 document we found last night to the witness? We found it in the database.

Page 1269

1 It is a collection of documents that had not been disclosed to us.

2 Unfortunately, we don't have the document in the system but of course I've

3 got copies for the Chamber. I've already disclosed these to the

4 Prosecution and I'd like to show it now to the witness.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And what document is this? What does it intend to

6 prove?

7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It is a list of members of the army

8 of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Bosnianovici unit where we have the name

9 of Sadik, son of Ahmo, born in 1961.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection on the part of the Prosecution?

11 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour, I don't have any objections to the

12 actual showing of the list. However, again, I do object to the line of

13 questioning. I don't see what the relevance is to the facts of his sons

14 belonging to the ABiH or not.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Madam Fauveau. You have permission

17 to show the witness the document. On the other hand, we would like to

18 know, in line with the -- yes. Madam Fauveau, we are of course proceeding

19 with this showing of this document to the witness. On the other hand, in

20 line with the objection made by Ms. Soljan, it's important for us to know

21 what is the relevance of proving that one of his sons or both of his sons

22 were members of the armed forces of the -- of the army of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina in 1992?

24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, I

25 would gladly explain this to you. I don't know whether it's good to do so

Page 1270

1 in the presence of the witness or with him absent. The answer is very

2 simple and I would not like to hurt him unnecessarily.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's have the witness answer the question

5 first and then you explain the relevance, Madam Fauveau.

6 Yes, Mr. Hasic, you are being shown a list.

7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Sir, on page 2 of the document, 02115729, that's the number of

9 that page, second page, please, the last name under number 41, we can

10 read, "Hasic, son of Ahmo, Sadik, born in 1961." Is this your son, sir?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the source of this document, Madam Fauveau?

14 I know it has been -- you found it in the --

15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, unfortunately, I

16 have no information apart from the fact that I found it in the EDS

17 database. It is a document that comes from the Prosecution, that's all I

18 know.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Perhaps the Prosecution tomorrow or

20 later on will indicate to us the provenance of this document. Do you

21 intend to tender this or not, or is it going to remain one of the

22 documents that have been --

23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I do, yes. I'd rather have it in

24 evidence.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, perhaps you can tell us what the

Page 1271

1 relevance of this series of questions is, the fact that he may have had

2 one or more sons enrolled in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is merely with

4 regard to the credibility of this witness.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: If that is the case, I don't think you have got that

6 far, Ms. Fauveau, but let's go to the next series of questions. This one

7 will become -- we need to know what Exhibit number it's going to have.

8 Just mark it for me, that's all. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau, please.

10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Sir, you stated that your son would every now and then go to Zepa.

12 Does this mean that the residents of Srebrenica could go to Zepa?

13 A. They could have, but many of them perished in the trip. They were

14 carrying 30 to 40 kilograms on their back. It would be a trip lasting 11

15 hours, but they had to go. Many of them perished. They never made it.

16 Q. Is it right to say that when the UNPROFOR withdrew from Jadar in

17 July 1995, they left a large quantity of fuel behind?

18 A. I heard from others that a large quantity of fuel stayed or was

19 left in a cistern. I don't know whether this was left on purpose or

20 whether it was confiscated, captured. I can't say anything about that. I

21 heard that from others. I didn't see anything. Yes. They did withdraw

22 from Jadar. They came to Srebrenica. And then they surrendered there and

23 pulled back.

24 Q. Yesterday, you stated, on page 49 of the transcript, that the

25 departure took five days for people to leave, to go to Potocari. Do you

Page 1272

1 remember that?

2 A. I did say that it took five days for people to leave Potocari. I

3 did say that. Four to five days before -- I mean it wasn't possible to

4 leave in less than four to five days. I left on Thursday but there were a

5 lot of people left still after I left. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I

6 left and then there were people still left on Friday. I don't know if

7 they all left on Friday. I don't know.

8 Q. Sir, why do you speak about things you're not familiar with, you

9 don't know?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer that question. Don't answer that

11 question. Don't answer. Ms. Fauveau, next question, please.

12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you so much, Madam Fauveau.

14 Mr. Krgovic. Mr. Krgovic will be putting questions to you now on

15 behalf of General Gvero.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Hasic. My colleagues for the most

19 part covered the topics that I wanted to ask the witness about so I will

20 only have a couple of short questions for this witness.

21 Mr. Hasic, yesterday when you testified, you described an incident

22 that took place when you left Bratunac and when you were in the buses

23 going to Zvornik?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember mentioning a man who was fleeing and who was fired

Page 1273

1 at?

2 A. Yes. It's possible that this happened already at the entrance to

3 Pilica. I don't know exactly. There was a school on the right side and

4 that's where this happened. There was another school. We continued on,

5 and where we turned, this was the school that was on the left-hand side,

6 and that's where we were.

7 Q. If I understood your testimony yesterday, you saw when that man

8 fled but you didn't see the moment when he was actually hit. Do you agree

9 with me?

10 A. I saw him through the woods and I saw him being cut down with two

11 bursts of gunfire. The first one didn't get him but the second one did

12 and he fell.

13 Q. Sir, do you remember testifying in the Blagojevic case?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This was in July 2003. I'm now going to read a part of your

16 testimony from that case. It's transcript of the 14th of July 2003, page

17 1190. Line 11. I'm going to read this in English and you are going to

18 receive a translation in the language that you understand.

19 [In English] "I heard the bursts of fire but someone else told me that

20 they had killed him, but I didn't see the victim fall. I was told that he

21 had been killed." [Interpretation] What I have just read, does that

22 correspond to what you saw at the time?

23 A. Yes. It corresponds like this and like that. The main point is

24 that he was killed.

25 Q. But you didn't see that?

Page 1274

1 A. I didn't see it, but I saw it through the woods. I mean, I didn't

2 see him personally, but I saw it in the -- in the woods, and I know that

3 there were two bursts of gunfire. The first one didn't hit him, the

4 second one cut him down, then they said he fell.

5 Q. But this is something that other people told you?

6 A. Yes, those who were right there, standing in front of the bus.

7 They said -- I was in front of the door, to the bus. He was killed.

8 That's the point. Doesn't matter if I saw it or didn't see it. He lost

9 his life.

10 Q. So you assume he was killed?

11 A. He was killed for sure. I do not assume it. He was definitely

12 killed.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this

14 witness, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Krgovic.

16 Yes, finally, we come to the last set of cross-examinations, and

17 it's Mr. Sarapa, I take it, who will be conducting the cross-examination,

18 Mr. Haynes? Yes, Mr. Sarapa is appearing for accused Pandurevic.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We have 15 minutes to the break, so it would be

21 appreciated if you could manage to finish within those 15 minutes. If

22 not, of course, you will have the time that you require.

23 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Hasic, yesterday you said the following in your testimony.

25 For the purposes of interpretation, this is page 7, lines 4 to 6. "July

Page 1275

1 for five days straight actually, shelling of Srebrenica, around

2 Srebrenica, so on the 11th of July we wanted to get to the UNPROFOR."

3 [Interpretation] Do you stand by what was said?

4 A. Yes, that's how it was.

5 Q. I would like to ask you a question in relation to this, in view of

6 this shelling. Did you see dead and wounded people on the streets of

7 Srebrenica?

8 A. I saw when a shell fell just beneath my house, a bit lower, just a

9 bit down from my house, when a shell fell, and one woman and a child were

10 wounded there. They were taken away from there. Then also in other

11 places, how would it be possible with shells falling amongst the people

12 that people are not wounded?

13 Q. How many dead and wounded people did you see, if you say that

14 shells were falling in the town of Srebrenica?

15 A. I didn't see many.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. No thank you. I want to say the following. I wasn't free to walk

18 around the town of Srebrenica and to remove the wounded and the injured

19 and to help them, when I could have been hit by a shell too. I was in a

20 room. I was just listening and watching and following where shells were

21 falling. I was in a shelter. I wasn't free to move around.

22 Q. I would like to move to my next question. In response to Ms.

23 Fauveau's question regarding fuel, you said how you found out about this.

24 But there is your statement of the 6th of July 1996, which was given to

25 the Tuzla commission for gathering information about war crimes, and in

Page 1276

1 that statement, you state the following. This is our document 7D00014.

2 In the English translation, this is on page 2, paragraph 6. I'm going to

3 read it. [In English] "I know that when the UNPROFOR members withdraw,

4 especially from Jadar, large quantities of fuel and other equipment

5 remained behind them and that this was taken and used by the Chetniks."

6 [Interpretation] You answered the question about fuel to Ms. Fauveau but I

7 would like to know how you got this information about the equipment that

8 was left behind.

9 A. I heard this from others up there. Perhaps soldiers who were

10 guarding or who were on guard duty in trenches, that the UNPROFOR had

11 withdrawn and that a quantity of fuel had stayed in Jadar. I don't know

12 how it was captured or how it stayed. It's not clear to me but mostly

13 this is what other people said.

14 Q. You're talking about fuel again but I'm actually asking you about

15 equipment?

16 A. I don't know what other equipment was there. I didn't say that

17 any other equipment had stayed behind.

18 Q. I would like to have the witness look at his statement of the 6th

19 of July. This is page 2, paragraph 5, where it is said, during the

20 withdrawal -- during the withdrawal of the UNPROFOR, especially from

21 Jadar, I know that there was a large quantity of fuel and other equipment

22 that was left behind.

23 So I would like to know about the equipment, since the witness has

24 already answered the question about fuel.

25 A. I don't remember saying anything about equipment. I know I talked

Page 1277

1 about the fuel. I heard about the fuel from others. I didn't see it but

2 I don't recall saying anything about equipment.

3 Q. I would like the witness to look at the statement he provided on

4 the 6th of July 1996, page 2, and we can also look at his signature at the

5 end of page 2.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Soljan?

7 MS. SOLJAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this is already been

8 read in both English and B/C/S to the witness. I don't think it's really

9 necessary for him to be going through.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it the same document that was shown to him

11 before?

12 MS. SOLJAN: It is not the same document that was shown to him

13 before but what I was saying was that the honourable counsel has just read

14 the passages both in English and in B/C/S.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but he wants to show him the relevant part in

16 the document itself and his signature. I think that's -- we can allow

17 that. In other words, he's being shown visually where he's supposed to

18 have stated that.

19 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness has just replied

20 that he never talked about equipment but here on page 2 it says and I read

21 it out that during the withdrawal of UNPROFOR and I don't have to repeat

22 that, a large quantity of fuel and other equipment remained behind. So

23 the equipment is mentioned and this is why I'm referring back then to his

24 signature at the bottom of the document.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know about the fuel and I know

Page 1278

1 today that this was said, but I don't remember mentioning any equipment.

2 I really don't remember it.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it we can safely move forward because at the

4 end of the day this is happening in this Tribunal every day. We get

5 statements that are translated and brought forward which do not

6 necessarily always reflect 100 per cent what the prospective witness or

7 interviewee would have actually stated. So at the end of the day, where

8 is it going to get you, Mr. Sarapa? I mean, you can show him -- you can

9 of course show him his signature. He will tell you, yes, that's my

10 signature. But he's still maintaining that it's what he's stating now

11 that is correct and what -- and not what is contained in that statement.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps something is written down by

13 mistake. I --

14 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Very well. I would like to ask you something about your surrender

16 now. Yesterday, you said the following. I'm going to read a part of what

17 you said. This is on page 43, lines 19 to 21. [In English] "We went down

18 to the road. There was a bus with two policemen there and the driver."

19 [Interpretation] First, a question in relation to the bus. Was it a

20 military bus or a civilian bus?

21 A. I don't know. It's possible that it was a civilian bus.

22 Q. Do you remember if the bus had any markings?

23 A. I don't know about that. I don't know. If it was a military bus,

24 I think that it would have been a multi-coloured bus just like the

25 uniforms that they wore, but I recall that it was a kind of whitish

Page 1279

1 colour. I would think that it was a civilian bus then.

2 Q. Thank you. And the policemen, were they military policemen or

3 civilian policemen?

4 A. It seemed to me -- I don't know. As far as I can recall, they

5 were wearing blue uniforms.

6 Q. Are you sure that they were blue or are you just maybe remembering

7 it like that?

8 A. I'm not sure.

9 Q. Yesterday, you testified that -- I'm going to read. It's on page

10 32, lines 11 and 12. [In English] "I was not looking out for insignia. I

11 just noticed their variegated uniforms." [Interpretation] I think that

12 they had uniforms. I'm going to ask a question about this. Since you

13 didn't pay attention to ranks and insignia, does that mean that you

14 couldn't really tell right there who was a soldier and who was an officer?

15 A. No. This is something that I don't remember. I don't remember

16 what sort of uniforms they wore. All I recall was that they were

17 policemen and there was a driver. They were going from house to house, as

18 if they were on mobilisation duty, as if they were looking for people,

19 they were looking for people by name.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Soljan?

22 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour, I just wanted to point out that this

23 reference on page 32, lines 11 and 12 this is not referring to the very

24 same incident. It is the incident -- this is the bussing from Bratunac

25 that this is referring to.

Page 1280

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa, I can't confirm or deny that

2 because I don't have that in front of me here, but if that is the case, I

3 think you need to readdress the whole matter.

4 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I am speaking about the incident in

5 front of the school in Pilica.

6 A. Yes, yes, in front of the school.

7 Q. Were you able to tell who was an officer and who was a regular

8 soldier, since --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because this last thing I want to do is

10 to have the witness confused. Let me go one page up.

11 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, please. Now, page 32, line 21, this is

13 how it all started: "I would like to ask you something about your

14 surrender now." Yesterday you said the following: I'm going to read part

15 of, this is page 42, lines 19, 21 in English. "We went down to the road.

16 There was a bus with two policemen there and the driver." First a

17 question in relation to the bus and then you continue. So we are -- you

18 introduced your series of questions in relation to his surrender. To my

19 knowledge, he surrendered only once. He surrendered only once. And that

20 was after his miraculous escape from death. In Potocari he did not

21 surrender. He was just captured. In Bratunac, he was in a state of let's

22 call it detention. In Pilica, he was still in a state of detention. So I

23 just don't want the witness to get confused. Please be specific. You

24 seem to be alleging that this incident that he referred to refers to one

25 site. He is stating it's another site. And I just wondering in my mind

Page 1281

1 whether either of the two refer to his surrender.

2 MS. SOLJAN: I believe -- I just want to correct what I said

3 earlier. The most recent citing to page 32, line 11, dealt with the

4 Pilica bussing, so the bussing from Pilica. What Mr. Sarapa had started

5 talking about initially was about the surrender and the buses at the

6 surrender spot after, as you said, the miraculous escape from death of Mr.

7 Hasic. Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll have a break now, Mr. Sarapa, and

9 you'll take this up immediately after. We'll have a 25-minute break. The

10 important thing is that the witness is put in the -- in the right

11 direction before being asked to answer any question. Thank you, we'll

12 have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa?

16 MR. SARAPA: May I start?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.

18 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I'd like to clarify the question for

19 the sake of the witness. I'm now referring to Pilica, to Pilica events

20 before his surrender. The questions follow a topic, not a chronology.

21 The previous question pertained to surrender, but the questions dealt with

22 the insignia worn by those who were present. Now I have an identical

23 question but in relation to a different event. To be more specific, the

24 events in Pilica. Can you please look at page 31, line 19. The Bench put

25 a question -- rather, not to the witness, but rather to my learned friend

Page 1282

1 from the Prosecution, that this centred on the events in Pilica, and this

2 can be gleaned from page 32, where in line 11 and 12, it says, "I wasn't

3 looking for insignia. I just noticed [In English] uniforms."

4 [Interpretation] My question is: Could the witness tell who was a

5 soldier, who was an officer?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could tell, if I saw insignia.

7 But I wasn't interested in that a great deal, and I could see that the

8 soldiers were coming and then when the order came to tie us, it could have

9 been that there were two officers who were there and who issued that order

10 and who said, "These people need to be tied up."

11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

12 Q. No further questions concerning this subject. I would now like to

13 turn to a different topic. Namely, Karakaj. Yesterday's transcript page

14 47, lines 12 to 14, I would quote, "On of our people said, 'It's a good

15 thing the Red Cross is here. They will be accompanying us.' So that's

16 how we set off and we were being escorted by the Red Cross."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. [Interpretation] My question to you: Did you see the Red Cross

19 representatives in Karakaj or did you hear from others that they were

20 there?

21 A. I heard that from others.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. And then when we came to Batkovici, the Red Cross was there

24 awaiting us and registered us, and they told us at that point that there

25 had been no registration up to that time. There was a camp there and the

Page 1283

1 war was going on but nobody was registered up until that date which was

2 the 26th of July.

3 Q. I would like now to turn to a different topic, namely

4 transportation from Karakaj to Batkovici. Page 47 of yesterday's

5 transcript, line 5 to 7. [In English] "I went to the truck and then I

6 could see that inside there were some other people who had been caught in

7 the woods. There were 27 of them altogether. And the two of us also,

8 29."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. [Interpretation] I'd like to put a question to you in relation to

11 this. There were 29 of you on the truck. Did you talk to other people

12 about the events that preceded what was going on at that point and why you

13 were taken there?

14 A. We didn't discuss anything there. We just heard that they had

15 been captured somewhere and had spent the night in Karakaj and then on

16 that day --

17 Q. Didn't they tell you about the locations where they had been

18 captured or where they surrendered?

19 A. They were captured in the vicinity of Zvornik, in the woods in

20 that area, but I don't know the specific name of that forest.

21 Q. All right. I'd like to turn to a different topic, namely the

22 corpses that were allegedly seen on the truck. This transpired after the

23 witness managed to save himself but before he surrendered. There is a

24 statement that was recorded by the commission for investigation and

25 documentation in Tuzla on the 20th of March 1996. This is our document

Page 1284

1 7D00012. On page 2, in paragraph 2, it says, "The five of us set out

2 further, but soon after that, I found myself alone because I couldn't keep

3 up with them. I came to a road leading to Karakaj, Zvornik municipality,

4 where I saw traces of blood," and then this is the important bit. "At

5 that point in time a truck was approaching me. As I was unable to turn I

6 passed next to it. But with the corner of my eye, I noticed that there

7 were corpses on the truck and the truck turned from that road to a minor

8 road leading towards the forest."

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. That's correct. All right. There is also a statement that the

11 witness gave to Mr. Ruez, the investigator. This was on the 25th of May

12 1996, where on page 5, paragraph 2, it says, "[In English] I don't know

13 how far I was from the execution field. A road came from the left and I

14 saw a truck arriving from the nearby intersection and had no time to hide.

15 I just continued to walk along the road towards the intersection and when

16 the truck passed by, I turned my head and saw that the rear of the truck

17 was loaded with a pile of dead bodies." [Interpretation] Is this correct

18 as well?

19 A. It's the same thing. One and the other are the same or similar.

20 Q. I'd like to clarify just one point. Did you turn your head or not

21 to follow the truck in order to see what was on the truck? Because in

22 your 25th of May statement you say, "I turned my head" whereas in your

23 20th of March statement, you say that you saw it with the corner of your

24 eye.

25 A. As the truck drew close --

Page 1285

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer that question. Move to the next

2 question, Mr. Sarapa.

3 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 Q. In your 6th of July statement, 6th of July 1996, page 6 it

5 says, "On this occasion I would like to point out that while travelling

6 from Pilica through the meadows and forest, I saw in many locations

7 corpses of dead civilians, and I can show all these locations from Pilica

8 where the executions were conducted to the locations where I saw the

9 bodies, if somebody requires this information." I'd like to ask you this:

10 In how many locations did you see these corpses, if you can remember? Can

11 you answer this question?

12 A. I saw in one stream, where I was hiding myself, I saw many bones

13 in the stream. I drank water from this stream. I was so thirsty that I

14 disregarded the fact that there were bones there, and I saw that these

15 were human bones and I saw this in one location. I don't know when these

16 people were killed, but there were just bones there.

17 Q. Could we clarify something? In your statement, it says that you

18 saw corpses of dead civilians in a number of locations and now you're

19 mentioning bones. So which is true?

20 A. It's not true that I saw corpses in many locations. That's not

21 true. Now, as to whether I stated that, I don't think so, because I

22 normally don't say things that I didn't see.

23 Q. Could we now show 7D00014, page 6, to the witness? Paragraph 4.

24 Or rather paragraph 6.

25 Once again, I'd like the witness to read this out. This sentence

Page 1286

1 which begins with, "On this occasion, I'd like to point out."

2 A. I can't read that because it's too small. As for the corpses that

3 I saw, I saw them, but when they brought us to the execution site, as I

4 was leaving the bus, when they were directing us to our death site. Along

5 that path, leading to the execution site, there were corpses there, yes.

6 These people were killed there and they remained lying on that path. This

7 is what I saw and this is what I spoke about.

8 Q. No. This involves something else, as you were travelling from

9 Pilica through meadows and forests.

10 A. No, that's not true and I didn't say that.

11 Q. Very well. Then I will turn to a different question.

12 Regarding that incident when 12 young men aged between 15 and 16

13 were taken out, the witness said on several occasions, he gave his

14 testimony about that. However, in your statement, on the 20th of March

15 1996, the witness said as follows: "On the same day, they took out 12

16 young men between 15 and 16 years of age, saying that they were taking

17 them to the front of Fikret Abdic in Krajina. Following that, they took

18 out several people aged up to 30 years." This is document 7D00012.

19 Document 7D00014, when speaking of this same event, and this was

20 dated on the 6th of July 1996, the witness mentions only 12 young men

21 between 15 and 16 years, describing the incident almost identically, but

22 fails to mention the seven other men, older ones, up to 30 years. So I'd

23 like to ask the witness whether this means -- or, rather, what are the

24 reasons why, in his second statement, he did not mention the other seven

25 people who were older. Were they really taken out or not?

Page 1287

1 A. I said about the young men that they wanted to send to Fikret

2 Abdic, they were lined up and taken out. What happened to them, I don't

3 know. As for the other seven who were up to 30 years old, I said that

4 they were perhaps taken out during my stay there. They were taken out

5 from my room, these people, and then they were outside, moaning and

6 screaming. I didn't say that they were taken all out at the same time. I

7 said in the course of my stay.

8 Q. Further on in your statement -- can we go into private session?

9 Or closed session? Because this is a question dealing with something that

10 might reveal the identity of the witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go into private session for awhile.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1288











11 Pages 1288-1289 redacted. Private session.















Page 1290

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now, Mr. Sarapa.

9 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Our document 7D00012, which is a statement dated the 20th of March

11 1996, at the end of the statement, there is a sketch attached and I would

12 like to put a few brief questions to the witness about the sketch. Can

13 you tell us --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, are we going to see this sketch or not?

15 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes. Could that be shown to the

16 witness, please?

17 Q. Mr. Hasic, what is written on this sketch, is it in your

18 handwriting or not, or rather, who wrote this down?

19 A. I don't see my handwriting anywhere here.

20 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you to look at the bottom right corner where

21 it says, "20th of March 1996." And then below it, there is a signature,

22 illegible to me. I'd like to ask you: Is this your signature?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it you don't have any further questions, Mr.

Page 1291

1 Sarapa?

2 MR. SARAPA: No, I don't have any more questions.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination, Ms. Soljan?

4 MS. SOLJAN: Just a few very brief questions.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

6 Re-examination by Ms. Soljan:


8 Q. Mr. Hasic, just taking you back to the day you were bused to the

9 building in Pilica. Do you recall where the buses went as they were

10 taking you to this building in Pilica?

11 A. They were passing through Bratunac, through Konjevic Polje,

12 Drinjaca, Zvornik, crossed over a bridge into Serbia and then we were

13 travelling through Serbia.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: He gave a full description of the route taken when

15 he first started giving evidence. So --

16 MS. SOLJAN: I'll ask it a little more exactly, Your Honours,

17 thank you.

18 Q. From the moment you stopped in Pilica, do you recall where your

19 bus went? Or more precisely, from the incident where a man, dead man, had

20 been taken out from the bus and another man had been shot at, do you

21 recall where the buses went from that point?

22 A. Yes. It was going ahead, in the direction where it was intending

23 to go, towards Pilica. And it was perhaps shortly before entering into

24 Pilica, there was this building on the right side and then it continued in

25 the same direction. It didn't cover too much ground and then it turned

Page 1292

1 left, to this school. That's why I was saying that I wasn't sure whether

2 it was a school or a cultural hall. It's a one storey building with a

3 ground floor and one storey more but I really didn't pay attention exactly

4 to what it was. I was afraid. You just kept your head down and you

5 didn't look from side to side. That's how it was.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hasic.

7 MS. SOLJAN: No more questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Soljan.

9 Mr. Hasic, we have finished with your testimony, which means that

10 you are free to go back home as soon as our staff finalise the travel

11 arrangements for you. I can assure you that you will receive all the

12 assistance you will receive all the.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you very much.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You will receive all the assistance you require

15 between now and your return. I wish to thank you for having come over to

16 give evidence. I thank you on my own behalf, on behalf of Judge Prost,

17 Judge Stole, but also on behalf of Judge Kwon, who is not with us today.

18 And on behalf of everyone, I wish you a safe journey back home.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would also like to thank you

20 because you invited me to tell the real truth and what is just and I would

21 like to thank Del Ponte whose intention is to catch the criminals and to

22 carry out justice, to administer justice. I would also like to thank

23 everyone and I wish you fortunate and successful work. Doesn't matter who

24 the criminals are, whether they are like this or like that, who they are.

25 What's important is if they did commit a crime, they should be brought to

Page 1293

1 trial and they should bear the consequences of their acts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So I thank you so much, Mr. Hasic. You will now be

3 escorted by Madam Usher.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, while the witness is being ushered out of the

6 courtroom, yesterday Mr. Bourgon raised a procedural matter relating to

7 the next witness, and I said that at the time that I did not anticipate

8 great problems. Have you in the meantime met, Mr. McCloskey, and tried to

9 clarify the matter further?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: We did see each other briefly. I think it's just

11 a -- I don't think it's a big issue any further. I know he would have

12 preferred for each of the exhibits to have 65 ter numbers. As I stated,

13 they either are identical or very similar to and so we didn't do that. We

14 will endeavour to do that in the future, especially when we get of course

15 to military documents and intercepts. This will absolutely happen. But

16 I've also asked him if there is any documents they feel surprised by or

17 they feel new to tell me and I would consider pulling them. No one has

18 said anything and I don't believe there are any such photographs to that

19 effect so I don't see Mr. Bourgon here, but I think we probably would take

20 the same positions we took yesterday, and I know Ms. Nikolic would like to

21 address us.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In particular, before I give you the floor,

23 Ms. Nikolic, in particular, the only concern that I have, having gone

24 through this, is you indicate as a Prosecution exhibit a CD containing 271

25 images, namely crime scenes and maps, with P reference number as P02103.

Page 1294

1 And that would be the intended exhibit number, as I take it.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I was going to get into the -- our -- what

3 we had planned and how we had planned to do that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me not -- okay. Let's deal with it as we go

5 along. Ms. Nikolic?

6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. What was said

7 yesterday about those 260-odd documents, yes, but I would like to ask the

8 Chamber at this moment is that when Mr. Ruez begins to testify, I would

9 like the Prosecution to be guided by what we now have in the 65 ter list

10 so not to go beyond the documents that were disclosed and classified

11 according to the usual practice.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I don't know if that would be acceptable

13 in all cases with Mr. McCloskey but I suppose every effort will be made to

14 standardise the introduction of exhibits in the case.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, if I could just take a minute

16 to find that podium and move over so I -- I'm hiding from Judge Stole at

17 the moment. I would like to move, if I could.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing now before the witness comes in, we

19 finished with Mr. Hasic's testimony. I take it that the Prosecution does

20 not wish to tender any documents as exhibits arising from his testimony?

21 Any of the Defence teams would like to tender any documents? Yes, Madam

22 Fauveau?

23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

24 I would like to tender a document which has now received a document 5D18.

25 It is a list of members of ABiH.

Page 1295

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I take it there has been no opposition

2 on the part of the Prosecution, so this document is tendered and so

3 admitted as Exhibit -- Defence Exhibit 5D00018.

4 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We will also tender by e-court a

6 list of our documents for cross-examination, just for cross-examination.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Ms. Soljan, if she is still here -- no,

8 I don't think she is still here. All right. Is there any objection on

9 the part of the Prosecution?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So tell Mr. Haynes?

12 MR. HAYNES: For the sake of completeness, there were three

13 documents put to the witness during the course of his evidence, 7D12, 7D13

14 and 7D14. We will highlight the passages for the court officer.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. And the understanding is the same as

16 before; it is definitely not our intention to allow the introduction of

17 evidence which is not evidence.

18 MR. HAYNES: Quite.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So please do highlight the parts that you want to

20 tender as evidence.

21 MR. HAYNES: We understand fully that the purpose for which it was

22 put to the witness and the effect it has.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: If that is at all necessary because the passages

24 have been read and question has been put to him.

25 MR. HAYNES: Transcript.

Page 1296

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether he confirms his signature.

2 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing is this: This is why I'm raising

4 this matter, whether it's necessary or not, but I will leave that in your

5 discretion, Mr. Haynes. Problem that may arise is the following: At

6 least in one of them, that's the 6th one, one of the statements, 1996 one,

7 6th - I forget the month, 6th of December or something like that - there

8 is a reference to certain individuals who were protected witnesses and

9 whose names should be in any case redacted if we are admitting this or

10 that statement or other statements into evidence.

11 MR. HAYNES: Yes, we will have regard to that. I hear the

12 Prosecution -- I haven't heard -- I don't imagine the Prosecution have any

13 objection to those passages as it were becoming part of the documentation

14 in the case. We will review whether we strictly think it's necessary

15 given the way in which the passages were read out.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and appreciate that. Perhaps you could

17 also contemplate tendering that particular page where the -- where the

18 front page where there is the signature of -- or the last page and that

19 particular page or those particular pages where the extracts read out to

20 the witness are and nothing beyond that. Perhaps that would help us sort

21 out the practical problems that may arise.

22 MR. HAYNES: Consider it done.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. While we are on that subject,

25 we understood that that was going to be the practice as from a few days

Page 1297

1 ago when it came up.


3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And one of the reasons we did not object to that

4 process is that that will help our process as well when we have our

5 witnesses so -- and I -- so as long as that when we have a witness that we

6 use a statement to impeach them or to remind them of something, if that

7 comes in as evidence as well. Now, this will be important because I will

8 anticipate that a witness may say, "I never said that accused A was

9 there." And we will come back and say, "Well on such and such day of so

10 and so, you previously testified that he was there." And so we will then

11 offer that piece of statement into evidence as substantial evidence, as

12 they are doing here. And so equality of arms, if that's the rule we are

13 ready to go with it. I just want to make sure that's the understanding.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought we made that clear, that that particular

15 excerpt from the statement would go into evidence for whatever it is

16 worth. Not necessarily and exclusively for the purpose it's being made

17 use of either by your side or by the other side. So that's the -- that

18 has been the practice in this Tribunal in any case. So if it's not clear

19 enough we will make it clear and I take the responsibility for not having

20 made it clear enough if that's the case.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's clear but Mr. Bourgon and I speaking

22 on issues related to that had some differences and if he was here perhaps

23 we would, but --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But you are a US citizen and he is Canadian. So

25 that explains the misunderstanding.

Page 1298

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will try to stay away from the US, if we can.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So can we safely introduce Mr. Ruez in

3 the courtroom?

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] A correction. The list I

5 mentioned, it is related to cross-examination of Jean-Rene Ruez, not the

6 particular.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you did not make any use of documents but I

8 was not sure. Thank you.

9 Mr. Ruez.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could briefly tell Your Honours what we had

11 in mind, if we could leave Mr. Ruez out for one second, please, not that

12 I'm --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Before he starts making speeches.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Exactly.

15 The CD that we have spoken of of these 200 some-odd photographs

16 that we believe reflects the 65 ter numbers, I was able to get actually

17 quicker than I had imagined just a colour copy of those. Now, of course

18 this is not in evidence. It does not have numbers yet. But it is

19 convenient for us that are used to this. I unfortunately only had four so

20 I have one, Mr. Ruez will have one. I've given two to the Defence and

21 I've asked if they would give one to you but they've refused so -- but I

22 don't know. You'll be seeing all these photographs on the screen, Your

23 Honour, and it is our intention that after we get through the

24 admissibility stage of this to be able to provide the admissible documents

25 with the numbers and just the outline so you can tell where they fit in.

Page 1299

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Last thing before Mr. Ruez comes in,

2 yesterday we enjoined you and actually we also stated it in your written

3 decision to explain to Mr. Ruez the concerns expressed previously which

4 are the basis of our decision and the substantives of our decision. I

5 take it that you have done so.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, I've had a chance to do that

7 the last break.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And so it is my intention to call Mr. Ruez. We

10 will then basically be just going through the crime scenes and he'll have

11 videos that he shot with little video clips.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And I will be explaining to Mr. Ruez that the

13 procedure adopted in this Trial Chamber is somewhat different to the ones

14 he's been -- he's used to, namely, that it will be a strict question and

15 answer and then it's only when it is indicated to him that he's got a

16 licence to expand that he will be able to do so and always under the

17 control, strict control, of the Trial Chamber.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I think that's a good idea. I explained

19 that and I told him many of my questions will be yes or no and I'll ask

20 him why and we needed to have limited, direct responses to that and we'll

21 see how it goes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and I'm grateful to you, Mr. McCloskey.

23 Let's bring in Mr. Ruez, please, thank you.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Ruez, and welcome.

Page 1300

1 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You're familiar with these proceedings. You've

3 worked here, you've testified. So we'll go straight to the solemn

4 declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: Fine. I solemnly declare that I will speak the

6 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable.

9 This is the fourth, fifth time that you are giving evidence.

10 THE WITNESS: The 6th.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Each Trial Chamber has its own way of procedural

12 method. The method that we adopt in this Trial Chamber is a little bit

13 different to the ones adopted when you previously testified both in Krstic

14 and Blagojevic in particular. And namely that the procedure we intend to

15 follow is a strict question and answer one. You will be examined in chief

16 by Mr. McCloskey first. He will be putting to you a series of questions,

17 some of which or the majority of which I would say would require a simple

18 yes or no answer, in which case please just stick to a yes or a no. And

19 then there will be several other questions where you will be asked to go

20 further than that and expand and explain. So you will be directed both by

21 Mr. McCloskey and by ourselves as we go along. The same applies when you

22 are cross-examined by the seven Defence teams that we have here.

23 I do wish also to make it clear to you that you will be here

24 testifying for quite a long time. So I hope you've made all the

25 arrangements necessary because you'll be here the rest of this week,

Page 1301

1 certainly the whole of next week, and incidentally we will not be sitting

2 on the 13th next week because we've got a plenary and in addition, we

3 agreed to make an arrangement with the Prlic Trial Chamber to accommodate

4 the testimony of an important witness who would otherwise not be available

5 before at least six months from now. So there will not be a sitting on

6 the 13th, and if you're not finished by the 20th, then on the 20th, also,

7 we have a plenary, another plenary, and there will not be a sitting. So

8 I'm just telling you so that you are prepared and it's in your interest to

9 try and get out of here and go back to your work the earliest possible.

10 At the same time, we require from you all the information and assistance

11 that you can give us based on the intelligence and information that you

12 have collected in the course of your investigations.

13 So I give him straight to you, Mr. McCloskey. You can go ahead.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, Ms. Stewart just reminded me, we

15 all have a little list of potentially sensitive witnesses, survivors. I

16 don't intend to be asking a lot of questions about them but in the course

17 of examination in-chief and cross-examination, these names may come up.

18 Mr. Ruez has the same sheet and it may just be simpler to refer to their

19 65 ter number. If there is any issue we can go into private session but

20 everyone is agreeable to that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Provided that this document is not made

22 public itself and provided that there is no other document in the records

23 which are publicly open, available to the public, which would show

24 relationship between the 65 ter number and the name of witnesses

25 anywhere. Just make sure of that. Otherwise we can live with it and I




Page 1302

1 suppose that it is okay with all the Defence teams. I see no objection by

2 anyone. So let's move ahead. You've understood the point made by Mr.

3 McCloskey, Mr. Ruez?

4 THE WITNESS: Perfectly well.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Mr. McCloskey.

6 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

7 Q. Mr. Ruez, will you state your full name and spell your last for

8 the record?

9 A. My name is Jean-Rene Ruez.

10 Q. How do you spell your last name?

11 A. R-U-E-Z.

12 Q. And what is your current profession?

13 A. I am a chief superintendent at the French Ministry of Interior.

14 Q. And can you describe for us what that job is?

15 A. I'm currently working at the international technical police

16 cooperation service at the headquarters in Paris.

17 Q. And in the hierarchy of police services in France, can you just

18 give us just a rough background of where that fits?

19 A. They are three groups of superintendents, there were, named

20 commissaire, commissaire principal, and commissaire divisionnaire. I am

21 commissaire divisionnaire.

22 Q. We are familiar with the police we see in Paris. Where are you

23 compared to the police, the traffic police and the police that we are all

24 used to seeing, the Gendarmerie?

25 A. In this specific work, there is no relation to Metrovidone

Page 1303

1 [phoen], but previously I was working in judicial police, before joining

2 the Tribunal.

3 Q. All right. Well, let's get to that. First of all, after your

4 secondary education, can you outline the education you went through?

5 A. I first did my military service, going through the military school

6 of Saint-Cyr Coetquidan so I served as a reserve officer. I finished with

7 the rank of Lieutenant.

8 Q. How long were you in that service?

9 A. It's a one year compulsory military service in France. It was at

10 that time.

11 Q. Okay?

12 A. And I continued in the reserve during two years.

13 Q. Okay. What was next?

14 A. Then I joined the university to study law. I finished that,

15 obtaining a law degree, named maitrise in France as well as two

16 certificates of the institute of criminology in Paris.

17 Q. What was the name of that university?

18 A. The name is University Paris II Assas.

19 Q. And can you give us an idea of the length of your study to obtain

20 those degrees?

21 A. Maitrise you get it in four years and the two certificates in one

22 year. So I studied in total for five years.

23 Q. After your education what did you do?

24 A. I passed the contest to join the national superior police school

25 that is in Lyon. It is the training school for the French

Page 1304

1 superintendents.

2 Q. And did you pass that school?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. How long was that?

5 A. It's a two year long training and then you start working in the

6 branch that you have selected and I selected judicial police.

7 Q. As you can see, my boss is telling me to slow down back here. We

8 need to hesitate, as you know. That's for the translation.

9 Okay. Can you tell us a bit about the judicial police and where

10 that fits in in the hierarchy of French police forces?

11 A. Judicial police has as a main task to deal with the most serious

12 crimes and mainly with organised crime.

13 Q. All right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me help you a little bit. Judicial police is

15 distinguished from the executive police; is that correct?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Executive police, I don't know what

17 the translation is, sir, in French, but in France the police is separated

18 in several branches, namely public order, public security, general

19 information services, counterintelligence and then judicial police.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So now you were -- you know where you are.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. And what year did you join the judicial police?

23 A. That -- the judicial police in 88.

24 Q. And can you briefly describe your career?

25 A. My first posting was as a deputy chief of judicial police station

Page 1305

1 in Paris, in the 18th district. Then I took the head of a unit named

2 research unit at the 4th division of judicial police in Paris.

3 Q. Just tell us briefly what that unit did.

4 A. This is a kind of a special police force dealing not once a crime

5 has been committed but working in advance of a crime, trying to collect

6 information of the potential perpetrators and infiltrate their groups, if

7 necessary, and then arrest them before they commit the crime or just

8 after.

9 Q. Okay. What did you do after that?

10 A. After that, I joined the regional criminal service based in

11 Marseilles as deputy head of the banditisme repression brigade.

12 Q. When was that?

13 A. That was in 1991.

14 Q. And tell us a bit about that job?

15 A. This is mainly designed to solve cases connected with attacks on

16 banks and financial institutions for armed vehicles carrying -- armoured

17 vehicles carrying funds.

18 Q. And as a deputy head, what kind of responsibility did you have?

19 A. Follow all the operational activities of that brigade.

20 Q. Okay. And how long did you do that?

21 A. In Marseilles less than a year because then I took the posting of

22 a head of that same type of group but named banditisme repression group.

23 That was an antenna of that regional criminal service based in Nice and

24 covering the French Riviera.

25 Q. And how long did you have the Nice job?

Page 1306

1 A. Until the 7th April 1995 when I arrived in The Hague to join the

2 Office of the Prosecutor.

3 Q. And can you explain how that -- were you -- did you become a UN

4 employee, were you seconded, can you explain that situation?

5 A. I replied to an offer made by the Ministry of Interior requesting

6 volunteers among the corps of superintendents, in order to fulfil a demand

7 that was made by the Tribunal to the French government at that time.

8 Q. So who was paying you?

9 A. I was paid by the United Nations.

10 Q. And what was your relationship with your police force in France?

11 A. Let's say that my career still would continue in France but I was

12 fully -- I was paid and had no more relationship with France except paying

13 my pension fund.

14 Q. Were you promoted along the normal lines by the French forces?

15 A. Yes. My career continued in that sense as well.

16 Q. But you were under the direction of the United Nations?

17 A. During all the years I did spend at this Tribunal, yes, indeed.

18 Q. Okay. And how long did you work for the ICTY?

19 A. From 7 April 1995 through 7 April 2001.

20 Q. And in April 2001, can you briefly outline what you've done up

21 until the present which you've already told us about?

22 A. I took a leave of absence, without working, resettled on an island

23 in the French Caribes named Guadalupe and returned to my normal activity,

24 let's say, in July 2003, where I joined the international cooperation

25 service.

Page 1307

1 Q. Okay. Now let's talk about, I guess it was the spring of 1995,

2 when you became a member of the ICTY, the Office of the Prosecutor. What

3 was your first general assignment?

4 A. Upon arrival, I was tasked to join an investigative team that was

5 busy with the investigation related to the siege of Sarajevo.

6 Q. All right. And did that change at some point within a few months?

7 A. Yes, it did. Once the fall of Srebrenica occurred, a lot of press

8 rumours were hitting the Office of the Prosecutor, and it was then decided

9 to send a few people in the area where refugees were arriving, that is

10 Tuzla, and I was designated to go there and make an evaluation of the

11 situation.

12 Q. And shortly thereafter were you designated the head of the

13 Srebrenica investigation or something like that?

14 A. During one and a half years, I continued being busy with this case

15 but without any structure around. I mean not a formal structure. And the

16 team was created early 1997 to deal full time with this investigation but

17 that was not the case before early 1997.

18 Q. And did I come in in October 1996 to become part of the Srebrenica

19 group with you?

20 A. You were indeed the first reinforcement of our little

21 investigation force available before that.

22 Q. Okay. And then once you got a more formal group around you, did

23 you stay the chief of the Srebrenica investigation through the -- 2001

24 when you left?

25 A. Yes, indeed. I changed position from a P3 investigator into P4

Page 1308

1 team leader and that was early 1997.

2 Q. All right. Now, have you at our request been able to assemble

3 basic crime scene and key area photos and videos in order to present some

4 of that material for the Court over the next few days?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Is this basically the same material that you have presented in the

7 last two trials?

8 A. Most of it, yes, but I didn't prepare this presentation by using

9 the binders of the previous trials. I didn't have time for that. So I

10 used the database of some 2000 pictures that I have from all the missions

11 we did and made a compilation of these, trying to select as less pictures

12 as possible to show the places where the events occurred.

13 Q. All right. Now, did that include assembling some video footage?

14 A. Yes, indeed, that included the assembling of videos. All of these

15 videos have been shown in the previous trials. I just made an effort to

16 compress them so they would take a little less time because I know this

17 Chamber is willing to reduce the time of the proceedings.

18 Q. We are trying but we may be having the opposite effect but that's

19 not anyone's fault. That's just the nature of the proceedings but we will

20 try to get through this as efficiently as we can.

21 All right. Well, then, do you have in front of you the book, a

22 book containing some of those -- well, all of those photographs and maps?

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 Q. All right. And they have been, as you're aware, put into an

25 electronic system called Sanction. You unfortunately under this system

Page 1309

1 cannot write or change anything, so I will sometimes endeavour to have you

2 explain from the photograph in which way Potocari is or such things but we

3 will do that individually. And the Court has heard already quite a bit

4 about the facts of the case so I won't be asking you to reiterate those in

5 much detail for context, so let's start with your -- the first thing that

6 you've chosen to create, and I will be trying to remember the actual

7 number. The exhibit, the overall exhibit number is P02103, and we will be

8 just going from 1 to 271. So let's go to page 1 of this exhibit. You

9 can -- should be able to see it on your screen. And can you just -- this

10 is obviously a map of the area with Srebrenica highlighted. What was the

11 purpose of that?

12 A. This is a map that covers more or less entirely the area where

13 important scenes are located, and the aim is only to show the general area

14 and the distances.

15 Q. All right. Is this map to scale?

16 A. Yes, it is to scale.

17 Q. Okay. All right. Let's go to page 2, then, the next page. And

18 we see a picture of a town. Can you briefly explain what this is and what

19 direction we are looking at it in?

20 A. So this is a picture I took during the summer 1997. It is

21 designed just to show to the Court how the town of Srebrenica looks like,

22 sandwiched in between two large hills, and it's a long stretch of

23 buildings, and this area is showing direction north, knowing that the

24 Bosnian Serb army entered through the direction shown on this photograph.

25 Q. So as we look into this photo, direction north, the next little

Page 1310

1 town of significance on your map is what? Mr. Ruez, the next town up from

2 this point. We haven't got to that photograph yet but just to help orient

3 the Court. The next town beyond this one --

4 A. Going -- going north in the direction of that photograph, goes

5 towards Potocari.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to number 2.

7 A. This one is a helicopter view, showing the town but seen from the

8 opposite direction from north towards south, and this picture that was

9 taken in summer 1998, shows the centre of the town.

10 Q. So is this the urban area of Srebrenica?

11 A. It is part of the urban area.

12 Q. All right. Is there some part we can't see from this photograph?

13 A. Yes. The part that is more south so at the bottom -- north,

14 sorry, so at the bottom of the picture.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please make pauses between

16 questions and answers? Thank you.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise.

18 Q. Okay. At this time, I note on your outline you have a short

19 video. Can you tell us briefly what the significance of the video is?

20 A. The video is designed to show the area south of Srebrenica from

21 where the Bosnian Serb army entered the town and also show the town in its

22 extent, not only with these two photographs, they don't show the total

23 size of the town.

24 Q. Do you recall when this was shot?

25 A. That was a helicopter flight that I did in 1998, summer 1998.

Page 1311

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make it -- make it clear that when the witness

2 says the video is designed to show the area south of Srebrenica from where

3 the Bosnian Serb army entered the town, you were not there when the

4 Bosnian Serb Serbian army entered the town, were you, Mr. Ruez?

5 THE WITNESS: No I was not on the spot.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's not taken as testimony that that is indeed

7 the area from where the Bosnian Serb army entered the town. I assume that

8 will be confirmed by other evidence.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. In fact, I think most everything Mr. Ruez

10 will be saying today will be confirmed by other evidence.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. What I wanted to do is put the Defence

12 minds at rest that that is not being taken as evidence. That will allay

13 their concerns. Let's move ahead. Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And this video is our 65 ter number 1514.

15 [Videotape played]


17 Q. Mr. Ruez, can you speak over the blade of the helicopter, roughly

18 how far south of the town is this?

19 A. This is a few kilometres south of the town, approximately three

20 kilometres.

21 Q. And is this the town of Srebrenica?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. What is this we are looking at?

24 A. This is a company B, that is a UN base in Srebrenica.

25 Q. That was apparently a little slow?

Page 1312

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think we need to go back a couple of stills

2 and if we could have a reference, I think the video would have a counter

3 that would refer straight to the -- yes.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Right there.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So the question refers to the building shown at

7 still 01 minute 38 seconds point 5.


9 Q. Mr. Ruez, I think you stated this was the Srebrenica UN base at

10 the time of the events; is that right?

11 A. That's the so-called bravo company.

12 Q. And in particular, it's the building right adjacent to the

13 building with the long red roof?

14 A. Yes, it's correct that at one point one could see UN markings on

15 it.

16 Q. Okay. We'll see that a little later in another video, I think.

17 Okay. Let's continue.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: This shows the direction of Potocari that is just

20 behind this big hill.


22 Q. Okay. And roughly how far is Potocari from Srebrenica?

23 A. Depending on where in Srebrenica, since the town is stretched. I

24 will assume four or five kilometres, no more.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 1313

1 [Videotape played]


3 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now let's go to your next exhibit which I

4 believe is a map, number 4? And what -- what is the purpose of this

5 illustration?

6 A. Since the population took two courses of action, this one is

7 showing the direction that most of the men took from Srebrenica towards an

8 area that is northwest of the enclave, named Susnjari where the men

9 assembled.

10 Q. And again you've learned that from your investigation?

11 A. Yes, correct.

12 Q. Okay. And these little yellow dots with letters on it, what is

13 that?

14 A. These dots mark the position of the UN observation post that were

15 along the separation line.

16 Q. All right. And we see in the middle, UN bravo company with a

17 little red corner. Is that roughly where it's located in Srebrenica town?

18 A. Yes, correct. This is marking the rough position of this building

19 we saw on the video.

20 Q. And then as we go north we see UN base. What's that?

21 A. This is the main UN base, that is in a factory in Potocari.

22 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, which I believe is 5. And what

23 does this show?

24 A. This is the same map than the previous one, but now indicating the

25 direction that took some of the men and mostly the women and the children,

Page 1314

1 so towards the area of Potocari.

2 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, which is 6. Excuse me, we have

3 a short video clip. So let's go to that before we get -- can you stall

4 that for a second. Just tell us what this clip is about?

5 A. This clip is showing the distance between Srebrenica and Potocari,

6 so it just continues at the point the previous one had stopped. So behind

7 this hill will be Potocari.

8 Q. And did the investigation reveal that this was the path that many

9 of the women and children took at they walked towards Potocari?

10 A. This is the path that more or less all of them took, either by

11 foot or on board of trucks.

12 Q. Okay. So let's continue with it.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record this video clip is 65 ter 1545. I

15 know we'll have other exhibits but can you briefly describe what this is.

16 A. Yes. This is a grouping of factories where many refugees took

17 shelter into, those who could not enter the main base.

18 Q. All right. Let's continue.

19 [Videotape played]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. McCloskey. For the record, the

21 buildings that the witness was referred to were at still 0 minute 42

22 seconds. Is this the same video as the one before or a new one or a

23 different one?

24 THE WITNESS: This is a very different one.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Thank you.

Page 1315


2 Q. And what do you mean by different?

3 A. It is the continuation of the other one. The previous one was

4 showing Srebrenica town and part of the way towards Potocari. This one is

5 showing Potocari.

6 Q. But it's the same helicopter flight?

7 A. It is the same flight, yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm asking because presumably you flew over

9 Srebrenica before you flew over Potocari.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, we started that flight from the south towards

11 the north.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So following that, the counter would show a reading

13 which is beyond that that we saw when you were flying over Srebrenica

14 which was 1 minute something and here we are only 42 seconds, not even

15 reached one minute, so perhaps -- I mean I know for sure that there should

16 be an explanation of that but if it's a continuation of the previous

17 video, I would imagine the counter would show -- unless the counter is

18 separate from the video itself.


20 Q. Yes, Your Honour?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is the case I'm being told by --

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's my understanding. This is Sanction doing

23 the counting and that I don't think we had a counter working at the time

24 but Mr. Ruez may know.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That explains the difference.

Page 1316

1 THE WITNESS: Another explanation is also the fact that I took

2 many bits out of this long video because the entire flight lasted one hour

3 and 20 minutes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's perfectly clear. Go ahead, Mr.

5 McCloskey, and regulate yourself. I mean we should be having a break in

6 about six, seven minutes time but we can have it a little bit later or

7 earlier should you so wish.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Thank you for reminding me about the

9 counter. We are now at a still at 0042.3 and there is a building in the

10 centre of this picture.

11 Q. What is that?

12 A. That large structure is the so-called express compound. It was a

13 compound that was used by a bus company.

14 Q. Okay. As we look in the right-hand corner of this picture, what

15 building is up in the right-hand corner?

16 A. This building is the so-called blue factory, that is a factory

17 that is just before the main base, the UN base.

18 Q. Okay, let's continue and we'll get to that.

19 [Videotape played]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are at still 1 minute 06 seconds point 3.


22 Q. Unfortunately it's on a blurry shot. But could you point out

23 the -- this house that the Court has heard about, the so-called White

24 House, if it's on this shot?

25 A. I regret not having a mouse but if one looks as a reference point

Page 1317

1 the road, in the middle of the picture, under the road, at the right-hand

2 of the road going north, is what I named as the blue factory, and just in

3 front of this blue factory, opposite side of the road, so a bit more

4 middle up of the picture, is a white dot on this fuzzy picture, but this

5 is the so-called White House.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The arrow we see on the dark side, on the black side

7 of the screen could be moved around and then the witness can tell us stop

8 there.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, stop there.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. Live and learn.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Someone knew exactly where it was.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could continue the film.

14 [Videotape played]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So stop there. Stop there. And we are at one

16 minute, 15 seconds point 8. Mr. Ruez, the building you referred to

17 before, is it the small building that we see on the screen on the

18 left-hand side of the road?

19 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: The mouse can probably follow that. Yes. Thank

22 you, if we could continue.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Stop right there.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And we are now at 1 minute 25 seconds point 3.

Page 1318


2 Q. What's this big, long rectangular building?

3 A. This large building is the so-called Akumulator factory. It was a

4 former battery factory used by the UN battalion as its main base.

5 Q. Okay. If we could continue.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: This might be a good time to take a break, Mr.

8 President.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. We will have a 25-minute

10 break. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could go to the

15 next image, which is number 6.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, what we have in front of us is a black and white

17 image, with yellow on it. Can you first of all tell us what is this black

18 and white image and where did the investigation get it?

19 A. The black and white image is an aerial photograph that was

20 obtained by the Office of the Prosecutor from the US State Department.

21 And the yellow markings were added for the sake of the trial of General

22 Krstic.

23 Q. Now, the Office of the Prosecutor obtained the black and white

24 portions of the photograph, including the labelling overview, Potocari,

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the date 13 July; is that right?

Page 1319

1 A. This is right.

2 Q. Now, that was originally obtained under Rule 70 but was cleared

3 for courtroom use; is that correct?

4 A. Absolutely.

5 Q. Now, there are certain constrictions placed on this photograph by

6 the United States government, and that is that you're allowed to refer to

7 this as what?

8 A. As aerial imagery.

9 Q. And as part of United States' surveillance systems, if I recall

10 correctly?

11 A. Reconnaissance systems.

12 Q. Yes, reconnaissance systems, thank you. And as for anything else

13 based on that, the United States has not provided us the authorisation to

14 speak about it?

15 A. This is correct.

16 Q. Okay. And the yellow material you put on yourself?

17 A. No. These ones were done for the sake of the trial of General

18 Krstic and I was not the one who added the labels.

19 Q. Thank you. The OTP has done that. Okay. All right. You've

20 obviously flown over Potocari. Looking at this as an image or a

21 photograph, do you recognise it?

22 A. Yes. Definitely.

23 Q. Okay. Can you just briefly go over the yellow markings and tell

24 us what they represent?

25 A. At the top of the picture, it is the direction south. The first

Page 1320

1 arrows mark the buildings where the refugees took shelter. We have seen

2 them on the film. The express bus compound and at the right of the

3 picture, two factories, one being the so-called Zinc Factory and the other

4 one the 11th of March factory.

5 Q. All right. And as we go down farther on the picture?

6 A. As we go down, is the blue factory, so-called blue factory; in

7 front of it, alongside of the road a building named from its company,

8 Feros.

9 Q. Any particular significance from the investigation of those two

10 buildings?

11 A. We, as far as we know, these ones were not used as a shelter by

12 the refugees. This area had been cordoned off by the Bosnian Serb army.

13 Q. Okay. Then we see the White House marked. That's the same White

14 House we spoke of before?

15 A. Yes, it is, as well as the UN base in this main building, the

16 Akumulator factory.

17 Q. And that yellow square around the UN base, as far as you know,

18 does that reflect a perimeter or is it just a rough guideline?

19 A. It is the perimeter of the base as it was used at that time by the

20 UN battalion.

21 Q. All right. Then let's go to the next photograph, which is number

22 7. Again, we see in a white circle that's the White House; is that right?

23 A. The white circle is indeed the White House.

24 Q. And the blue box?

25 A. The blue box shows the UN base.

Page 1321

1 Q. All right. Now, let's go to number 8. Now, what's number 8?

2 A. Number 8 is a photograph that I took in January 1996. It was the

3 first photograph that we could take of the so-called White House in

4 Potocari.

5 Q. Can you -- was this the first time you were actually able to get

6 to the area of the events?

7 A. Yes, indeed.

8 Q. And were you -- can you just describe, was it a regular

9 investigative mission or what were you able to get done on this mission

10 with the snow on the ground?

11 A. We used the opportunity of a visit to the area of Mr. John

12 Shattuck who at that time was an Under Secretary of State for -- I don't

13 remember exactly what his title was at that time.

14 Q. US official of some sort?

15 A. Yes, US official, absolutely.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. So we used the opportunity to expand a bit his mission, that was

18 initially designed to show the completion of Dayton agreement in terms of

19 freedom of movement in that area, and we went to several spots, including

20 north, the Grbavci school, so-called Grbavci school and more on the south,

21 the soccer field of Novaka Sava. We also had access for the first time at

22 the warehouse close to Kravica. We made a short stop at a suspect mass

23 grave area named Glogova.

24 Q. Okay. We'll get to some of the photos on those places as well.

25 Is that right?

Page 1322

1 A. Yes. And Mr. Shattuck was Under Secretary of State for human

2 rights.

3 Q. Okay. And what was the security situation on the ground for you

4 at the time?

5 A. For this mission, the escort was provided by state security of

6 Belgrade.

7 Q. And what did that consist of?

8 A. If I recall well, three to four bodyguards or two of them, and one

9 vehicle.

10 Q. Okay. And this photograph, this is a close-up of the White House?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Okay. All right. Let's go to the next photograph, number 9.

13 This is a split image. And can you tell us the -- the bottom image

14 appears to be similar as the last one, a winter time shot; is that

15 correct, of the White House?

16 A. Yes, this is correct. The split is designed to show the location

17 where the man on the balcony are sitting, that is an extract of the video

18 filmed at the time of the events by the journalist named Zoran Petrovic

19 and the arrow shows the rough area where these prisoners were sitting.

20 Q. To give a brief explanation, you say the video of Zoran Petrovic,

21 can you tell -- just when did the Office of the Prosecutor obtain the

22 first version of the Petrovic video, roughly, if you recall?

23 A. I don't remember very well. That might have been by the end of

24 1995.

25 Q. And this portion of it when the men on the balcony, was that part

Page 1323

1 of what was obtained originally?

2 A. Negative. There were parts of it that we named the missing

3 pictures, a few footages that had been cut off of the original video,

4 prior that second version be sold to journalists.

5 Q. Okay. And so after you left the OTP, are you aware that the OTP

6 received a copy of some of the missing footage?

7 A. Yes. I learned that from Dutch journalists who went to see me on

8 my island in Guadeloupe and who showed me for the first time the missing

9 pictures.

10 Q. This symbol in the upper right-hand corner of the top of picture,

11 got a B around it and circles, do you know what that means?

12 A. Yes, this is the logo of Studio B.

13 Q. That's what?

14 A. This is a so-called independent radio or television from Belgrade.

15 Q. All right.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, we will go into much more detail

17 with other witnesses on this particular aspect but not -- it's not my

18 purpose to deal with Mr. Ruez in too much detail on that because we do

19 have much more detailed analysis that you will see. All right.

20 Q. And if we could -- let's go to the next photo. Number -- if we --

21 actually, we have a -- another short video, which is numbered 65 ter 1557.

22 Mr. Ruez, can you tell us what this is?

23 A. This is again a helicopter views from the same flight I talked

24 previously, showing at this moment Potocari and the road that goes north

25 towards Bratunac town and gives a quick idea of the small size of the town

Page 1324

1 of Bratunac.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Bratunac town.


5 Q. So at 3, 1, point 2 that cluster of buildings in the distance is

6 what you're referring to as Bratunac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Continue.

9 [Videotape played]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for that, Mr. McCloskey.


12 Q. All right. Now, Your Honours, we have a 36-minute film which is a

13 compilation of video obtained by the Office of the Prosecutor. Some of it

14 under Mr. Ruez's watch, others of it after his watch. It's a good time to

15 just play it I think. We have just about enough time to do it. I won't

16 be asking him much because that will -- that may cause us to be a bit

17 delayed but -- and there will be other witnesses that will speak in more

18 detail about it.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The problem is the other trial that we would be

21 delaying. All right. It will be more than that because it's five -- it's

22 20 past now so it will be five to.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can cut it short, too. You'll be seeing a fair

24 amount of this video, I think, so ...

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go ahead and see how we can -- because

Page 1325

1 I don't know what video it is so maybe --

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Much of this video will be video that was shot at

3 the time by combat cameras, by news cameras, by Muslims. You'll see that

4 it's all labelled and self-explanatory, to some degree you'll have

5 questions and we will get through it and go from there.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: At least we will get through part of it, a

7 substantial part of it. The thing is I wouldn't want to delay the start

8 of the next trial.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, may I sit down during this? Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. McCloskey.

13 [Videotape played]


15 Q. Mr. Ruez, do you recognise this man in this picture at 5/4/point

16 3?

17 A. Yes, I recognise him as being Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, commander

18 of the Zvornik Brigade.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

20 [Videotape played]


22 Q. Mr. Ruez, do you know what that man is?

23 A. I was told he's Major Jolovic, nicknamed Legenda who is heading a

24 unit attached to the Zvornik Brigade named the Drina Wolves.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

Page 1326

1 [Videotape played]


3 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, is this the UN base that we saw a photo of that you

4 described earlier in the helicopter video?

5 A. Yes. It is correct. And when the video was taken in 1998, the

6 signs, "UN Srebrenica," were erased from the roof.

7 Q. And that's at 6.43.2. Thank you.

8 [Videotape played]


10 Q. Mr. Ruez, do you know where the location of this building that

11 those people are inside is, at 17.21.6?

12 A. This is a hangar inside the main base at Potocari.

13 [Videotape played]


15 Q. Can you, Mr. Ruez, at 20.30.1, start from the right and, if you

16 can identify anyone that you recognise?

17 A. At this moment, in the middle of the picture is as everyone knows,

18 General Mladic. At the right of the picture, one can see again Colonel

19 Pandurevic. Then again at the right is one man who I suppose is one of

20 the bodyguards of General Mladic. Just behind General Mladic, I cannot

21 see the face of the person but at his left is another bodyguard of General

22 Mladic.

23 Q. And the -- we'll try to keep the video going to see if we can get

24 the physical of the person?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1327

1 Q. Okay. Now we see a face behind General Mladic. Do you know who

2 that is?

3 A. Just at the left of General Mladic is General Krstic.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And now we are at 20 minutes 31 seconds point 5.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. If we could continue.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, they don't get the APC out and it

8 might be a good time to stop. They try for a while.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe they will succeed tomorrow.

10 Yes. I think we will stop here so that we don't keep the other

11 Trial Chamber from being able to start its trial on time. I thank you for

12 all your cooperation. We will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00.

13 Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 8th day of

16 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.