1 Friday, 8 September 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Registrar, could you kindly call the case,
7 please, and good morning to you.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So, usual advisory, if there are problems with
11 interpretation, please draw our attention straight away.
12 Let me have a look. I think we are in full force today. Yes.
13 And Prosecution, all right.
14 Any preliminaries before we continue with the evidence? I see
16 Mr. Ruez, bon jour.
17 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. We are going to proceed with your
19 testimony and you don't need to repeat your solemn declaration.
20 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, it will be a usual day with the usual
22 breaks of 25 minutes each.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, I guess we will just
24 continue with General Mladic trying to get the APC out from the tree and
25 we have about an hour and 20 minutes of this sort of video and then we'll
1 get into the question and answer again.
2 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, can you tell us where they are coming into now?
6 A. This is the south entrance of Srebrenica town.
7 Q. On -- sorry, my screen just left, on 23.59.9.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. Mr. Ruez, we are now at 25.02.6 and can you identify the person
11 standing, well, according to the picture, to the left of this jeep
12 vehicle, next to it?
13 A. Yes. This man is General Krstic at that time deputy to the
14 commander of the Drina Corps who was General Zivanovic.
15 Q. Do you know the person in black holding the flag, do you know, has
16 that person's unit been identified to you in the investigation?
17 A. Yes. It was the man wearing black uniforms are members of the
18 10th sabotage detachment.
19 Q. And who told that to you?
20 A. Drazen Erdemovic.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could continue.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. There is again we are at 25.27.9, and there has been a reference
25 to Zile and Zivanovic. Do you see General Zivanovic in this portion?
1 A. Yes, at the edge of the frame.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. Mr. Ruez, we are at 31.13.3, and can you identify the people first
6 we see well, General Mladic, with his back to us, and who else do you
8 A. Just behind him is Colonel Pandurevic. At the left of Colonel
9 Pandurevic is Lieutenant Colonel Vujadin Popovic. He was also seen a few
10 frames before, before 30.50, and at the left, totally at the left of the
11 picture is General Krstic.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Mr. Ruez, we are going to try to go back to that man. Okay, we
16 are at 18.104.22.168. Do you recognise the person in camouflage to -- in the
17 far left of the screen?
18 A. Yes. He has been identified as being Colonel Borovcanin.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, I'm not trying to say this is not
21 Mr. Borovcanin but I have a problem with the way the question was posed.
22 Do you recognise this man? I don't believe there is foundation for such a
23 question. There is no record that the witness met Mr. Borovcanin ever in
24 his life so I don't believe that it's a proper question to ask this
25 witness, "Do you recognise this man?"
1 JUDGE AGIUS: "Do you recognise the person in camouflage to the
2 far left of the screen?" It's a perfectly legitimate question. Thank
4 Go ahead. I don't see any basis for sustaining your objection.
5 Thank you.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. Continue, please.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. Mr. Ruez, I know that it's a difficult picture but the person in
10 the blue vest will be as you've now seen repeatedly in this movie. Can
11 you identify that person?
12 A. Yes. He is a UN military observer, Major Kingori from Kenya.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record we are at 1 minute, 59 -- 1 hour, 59
14 minutes 39.5 seconds.
15 [Videotape played]
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. Mr. Ruez, can you just remind us who this person is in the
18 forefront giving the interview?
19 A. He is General Krstic.
20 Q. And have you seen this video many times?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And does someone come walking up behind General Krstic during this
24 A. You will have to stop on the good frame but, yes, indeed,
25 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic is walking behind at some point.
1 Q. All right. And can you tell us -- I know the frame said this was
2 Potocari 12 July but can you tell us just where this is? We will get a
3 more precise indication by map and photo later in the trial but can you
4 just tell us generally where this is?
5 A. A bus is hiding the building behind but whether it will pass, one
6 will see the blue structure. It's a location we call the blue building.
7 I will pinpoint it on the map later on, if you wish.
8 Q. All right. And we are at 2.03.08.4. And we'll try to stop it,
9 well, when you tell us to stop it if you see Lieutenant Colonel Popovic.
10 [Videotape played]
11 THE WITNESS: Stop.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Okay. Can you identify why you said stop? Who do you see where?
14 A. At the right of the left ear of General Krstic, Lieutenant Colonel
15 Vujadin Popovic is coming from the direction of the north towards the
16 direction of the south.
17 Q. And this is 2.04.05.9. Thank you.
18 [Videotape played]
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Mr. Ruez, this said SRT TV. Do you know what that means?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. Can you -- well, I won't ask you to speculate but I think we all
23 know who this is but can you tell us for the record? And it's at
25 A. I think he can be recognised as being President Radovan Karadzic.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Mr. Ruez, can you tell us what the significance of this Luke area
4 is briefly?
5 A. This is the exit way from the Serb-held territory towards the
6 Muslim-held territory at Kladanj.
7 Q. And from what you've learned in the investigation, who was -- who
8 was taken here?
9 A. The people who were bussed [Realtime transcript read in
10 error, "burst"] out of Srebrenica were taken towards this area, and from
11 there, they would walk by foot through the confrontation zone.
12 Q. Roughly how far a walk was it through the confrontation zone to
13 the Kladanj Muslim zone?
14 A. I would assess approximately four kilometres.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record page 6, line 10, not the people who
17 were burst out of Srebrenica, the people who were bussed out of
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I should say we stopped for that explanation at
20 about 02.13.30.3.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. McCloskey. We can proceed.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Mr. Ruez, we saw the title of this clip but can you just give us a
25 little more information on what this depicts, if you can recall?
1 A. Yes. This is the arrival at Kladanj.
2 Q. And these two men dressed in camouflage uniforms, do you know what
3 units they belong to?
4 A. I was later told that indeed they are UN soldiers and that the man
5 at the left is Major Boering.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are at 2 hours 15 minutes 44.5 seconds.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: We don't need to stop but just for the record,
9 Mr. Ruez, can you tell which side film footage this is coming from? I
10 know we've seen mostly Serb footage but is this different.
11 A. This cannot be Serb footage because this is Muslim-held territory
12 close to Kladanj so it must be some Bosniak Muslim footage.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Before this part of the video started was RTL
14 Speranza does that mean anything to you?
15 THE WITNESS: No, it doesn't.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. Mr. Ruez, at 22.214.171.124, this segment started off with BiH TV and
20 mentioned the airport. Can you just tell us briefly the significance of
21 the airport?
22 A. When the first refugees arrived at Tuzla, the first place they
23 were taken to was the air base. Some 6.000 to 8.000 refugees then settled
24 on this base.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. The title that began here at about 02.21.24.5 has been entitled
4 the Petrovic footage. You briefly mentioned that yesterday. And can you
5 just reiterate who Petrovic is and what this is about, just very briefly?
6 A. He's a journalist from B92 Radio and he was present in the area at
7 the time of the events.
8 Q. And did the investigation reveal there was any connection between
9 him and Mr. Borovcanin in regarding to him, his film?
10 A. Yes. They were driving in the same vehicle so they went to the
11 same places.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And the video will speak for itself on
13 that point, Your Honours, and we will deal with the specifics in much more
14 detail later, and not with this witness. Thank you.
15 [Videotape played]
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. Just a reminder for the record, what date is this? If you
19 A. Yes. I think it is July 13.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We don't need to stop anything but these initial
22 shots that we've been seeing, what town have they been in and are
23 continuing to be in.
24 A. At this moment, this is Potocari.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And for the record, the shots that Mr. McCloskey is
2 referring to are those immediately preceding 2 minutes -- 2 hours point 24
3 minutes point -- right up to the beginning of the -- this part of the
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. At 126.96.36.199, the man in the middle with the beret, do you
8 remember who he is?
9 A. No, I don't. He's a UN soldier but I don't remember his name.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Mr. Ruez, the person in the centre wearing the blue vest, have you
14 received any information about -- in the investigation, briefly, where
15 that vest came from?
16 MR. HAYNES: I think we are going just a little too far.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection anticipated. Sustained. I think that was
18 too much of a direct question.
19 Mr. McCloskey, please rephrase your question.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. Did you speak to a --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Can he give us any information about the man in the
23 centre wearing the blue bullet-proof vest? And if he can say anything
24 about that bullet-proof vest, let's leave it at that, unless you want to
25 add further questions after that.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, that's my question. Thank you, Mr. President.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, the man in the middle is playing the role of
3 the interpreter with the UN forces, and though his flak jacket is of blue
4 colour, this is not material stolen to the UN. These flak jackets were
5 given -- provided to members of the special police brigade while they were
6 training at their centre in Jahorina and inside the flak jackets the
7 inscriptions were written in Cyrillic so this is not material stolen to
8 the UN, like it was in other situations.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. And you received that information from one of the Serb soldiers?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Once we are at this because he seems to know enough
13 about this subject matter, just imagine for a moment that the soldier next
14 to -- next to him wore or was wearing one of the UN flak jackets, would
15 you be able to tell the difference looking at both of them or would you be
16 able to tell the difference only if you looked at the inside to see the
18 THE WITNESS: There would be absolutely no difference. One would
19 have to look inside the flak jacket.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think that's clear enough.
21 Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed. I apologise for interrupting you
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. At 188.8.131.52, the person whose back is to us, I think we've seen a
1 bit of a profile, can you, from what you've seen or what you know of this
2 film, identify the person with his back to us?
3 A. There will be better frames, but as far as we know he's
4 Colonel Borovcanin.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 [Videotape played]
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. Again my timing wasn't very good but 184.108.40.206, the person again
9 he's got his back to us to the left of the screen, who is that?
10 A. Again, in between the two references you gave we could see him on
11 several frames, Colonel Borovcanin.
12 Q. And the black man in blue, who is that again?
13 A. An UNMO, he's a major I spoke before about, Major Kingori.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. Again, at 02.29.56.1, who can you recognise in this photograph and
17 can you describe where they are?
18 A. So this picture is taken just at the -- at the angling of the
19 White House. At the left of the picture is Major Kingori and in the
20 middle of the picture is Colonel Borovcanin.
21 Q. All right. And yesterday you mentioned about the Petrovic film
22 and having some black parts or some cutout parts and then you also
23 mentioned the B92 piece that is came in later and we'll get some sections
24 coming up on that point soon, Your Honour, where I will stop but as I
25 mentioned, this is a compilation that the Prosecution has put together and
1 so you will see edits for targeted purposes. The Defence has all the full
2 footages of all this. Thank you.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. All right. Let me just stop right there, if I could. We saw a
6 big shell casing. Let me -- I'm sorry, Your Honours, we have now gone to
7 this studio B segment and Mr. Ruez, can you orient us on why that segment
8 comes in here the way it does?
9 A. I assume because this one is going to show the parts that were cut
10 from the film.
11 Q. Yes. The segment that I missed getting, there was a house. We
12 could see a bit of a house. Just before this at 220.127.116.11, which house it
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go back a little bit. I think it can be done
16 I recognise Mr. Haynes. Yes.
17 MR. HAYNES: I'm afraid the answer that is coming when it's
18 prefaced with the phrase, I assume, does not give me any confidence that
19 this witness can actually give any evidence about this section of the
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see. I wouldn't anticipate as much as you are
22 doing, Mr. Haynes but let's see.
23 Yes. Let's finish this -- see this part again. And then we go to
24 the next -- this is still the Petrovic part of the Petrovic footage, no?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And the next one, which is from the -- that
2 station, the other station, I forgot what.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: B92.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: B92 station is also part of the Petrovic footage.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's proceed with this one first. We get to the
7 next one and then you put your question, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. This white goat, he's standing in front of a house. What house is
10 he standing in front of?
11 A. You will have to advance a few frames but the so-called white
12 house will be easily recognisable. The only thing is that the way the
13 film is framed it will stop just under the balcony.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go on.
15 [Videotape played]
16 THE WITNESS: Stop.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Now, the -- we don't see a very good picture of the balcony in
19 this shot; is that correct?
20 A. No, because the balcony is just at the top of the picture.
21 Q. And in the original Petrovic film, did we get a shot of the
23 A. No, we didn't.
24 Q. Okay. Will we see a better shot in the B92 version?
25 A. Yes, we will.
1 Q. Okay. And this has been stopped at 18.104.22.168 where we see things
2 piled up in front of what Mr. Ruez has identified as the white house.
3 Okay. Let's continue.
4 [Videotape played]
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. All right, Mr. Ruez, we are at 02.30.40.8 and what is this a shot
8 A. This is again a shot of so-called white house and men are sitting
9 on the balcony.
10 Q. Okay. If we can continue just to play it.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Now we are back to the regular Petrovic video; is that right?
14 A. I'm not so sure. I think this is a Dutch footage. I'm not sure.
15 Q. Okay.
16 [Videotape played]
17 THE WITNESS: No. This is indeed the Petrovic one.
18 [Videotape played]
19 THE WITNESS: This is Dutch footage.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's referring to 02.31.26 point --
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that's the end of this
23 particular -- the Dutch footage. We go back to some more footage but I
24 believe it's time for a break.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll have a 25-minute break starting from
2 For the record, the tape is stopped at 2 hours 36 point -- 36
3 minutes point 36 seconds point 6.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, for -- we can continue and for the record, the
7 video resumes in the same position it was stopped before the break, namely
8 at 2 hours, 36 minutes point 36 point 6 seconds.
9 Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, apparently we just have
11 a little bit more of this section and then I believe we get to the more of
12 the Petrovic video and I may not stop to identify Mr. Borovcanin at this
13 point, unless the Court thinks they would like clarification on that but I
14 think we've seen his face enough that maybe that hopefully won't have to
15 take the time to do that but I'll leave that to Your Honours.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the Dutch footage, no? Still the Dutch
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, just for a few more seconds.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I said it. I knew it. I said it for the record,
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Mr. Ruez, this section is entitled, "On the road." Can you tell
25 us what road are we talking about?
1 A. Yes. It is the road that goes from Bratunac towards the
2 intersection of Konjevic Polje.
3 Q. All right. And this particular scene, do you know -- can you just
4 give us a rough description of where this is?
5 A. Yes. This should be on a meadow that we name Sandici meadow.
6 Q. All right. And we'll just leave it play for a while. Thank you.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. Could we stop here at 02.54.07.5. We have changed areas. Do you
10 know roughly where this area is we've got? We just went by some sandbag
12 A. This is the limit of the Srebrenica enclave whether coming from
13 the road that goes from Bratunac towards Potocari. More or less in
14 between mid-distance between Bratunac and Potocari.
15 Q. And which direction is this vehicle that the camera is in
17 A. At this moment driving towards Potocari. This was the UN
18 check-point marking a limit of the enclave.
19 Q. Do you remember the name of that place?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Stopping at 22.214.171.124, what direction are they going in if you
1 A. This is Potocari driving, towards Srebrenica town.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. Could we go back a bit to play that Studio B segment? But before
6 we do I just want to ask Mr. Ruez a question or two. Mr. Ruez, we saw
7 Studio B segment played in real time and then a slow motion piece. Can
8 you tell us what we are seeing there, if you recognise the area?
9 A. Yes. It is [indiscernible] that a strange place in the chronology
10 of this video because this is no longer in the area of Potocari going
11 towards Srebrenica. The segments you are showing at this moment show the
12 hangar, the so-called warehouse very nearby Kravica.
13 Q. And which direction is that -- is the vehicle or the camera going
15 A. At the moment, it shows the warehouse of Kravica. The vehicle is
16 driving from the direction of Konjevic Polje towards Bratunac. So the
17 warehouse is at the right-hand of the vehicle. But again it's a very
18 different area than the one of the previous footage and the one that is
19 following now.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a playback of both footages, please.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could start with the real time and then get
22 the slow motion, please.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE WITNESS: This is Potocari. Now it jumps to the Kravica
2 This last picture was again in Potocari.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Potocari. So who -- who sandwiched the Kravica part
4 in between the Potocari shots?
5 THE WITNESS: I am not the one who edited this film, I cannot say.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I just wanted to make sure whether it was
7 you or not in the first place. So this is not your editing.
8 THE WITNESS: No, it is not.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And you haven't been able to find out whose editing
10 it is.
11 THE WITNESS: I never asked.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Mr. President, the B92 footage just for your information came
14 from -- originally from Mr. Borovcanin and about the same time a
15 journalist got it as well, and we will be able to provide you some answers
16 to those questions?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I won't put any further questions, then.
18 Thank you.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that was just after Mr. Ruez's time here.
20 [Videotape played]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, I notice that it can proceed but I
22 notice that we have quite a stretch of footage now and we can -- those who
23 can follow the Serbian conversation or words that are being spoken, but
24 there are -- there is no translation and we are not receiving
25 interpretation. Is what is being said important for you or not?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, it -- we have a transcript of this
2 segment for you. It was not -- well, it's a long story about the
3 difficulties of subtitling but it was not considered as crucial in the
4 resources for subtitling ran out.
5 We have now another system which we will see another -- in other
6 videos but we do have a transcript so you will see this information as you
7 could recognise perhaps some of the villages and I'm sure you would be
8 interested in what they are saying and so I apologise for not having this
9 done but we do have a transcript that goes along with this.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Excuse me.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic?
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I made the same note on 34:30 where the
14 Muslims were in the woods I think it was captioned there was no
15 translation of that column and I wonder if you may ask the Prosecutor if
16 that's the same explanation there as well.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you've put the question and Mr. Ostojic has
18 heard you. What's your position on that, Mr. McCloskey?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's the same answer and they've had that
20 transcript for a long time.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if there is any question, we will be able to
23 give that to everyone.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Thank you.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, Mr. President, we'll continue and I
2 will endeavour to have a -- the new version of subtitling for those final
3 portions and for the final exhibit. I think it would be better.
4 Q. All right, Mr. Ruez, we are going back now. We were going
5 through, if you recall, our chronology, and I believe we need to start
6 back where we I think you entitled it, "Bratunac." Go back, I believe,
7 it's number 10. All right. Now, Mr. Ruez, what -- where does this fit
8 into the chronology? What's the significance of your next photos?
9 A. The black arrow on this map indicates the movement that was made
10 by the men held at the White House towards Bratunac town.
11 Q. All right. So let's -- and this is 10. Let's go to 11.
12 And we see another US aerial image before us dated 12 July
13 indicating Bratunac city. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes. This is correct.
15 Q. And have you made these circles that we see on this?
16 A. Yes, I did. At the top left of the picture is the direction
17 coming from Potocari and the blue arrow points to a circle in the middle
18 of the circle is a hangar.
19 Q. Okay. Can you -- if the blue is going towards Potocari, can you
20 orient us and perhaps Ms. Stewart will help us with that little mouse
21 thing. Where is the road going towards Konjevic Polje, if it can be seen?
22 A. Yes. Arrow should go to the left. To the top. More or less
23 where the -- where the of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the D of "and",
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina, where the D is, okay. This is the direction
25 towards Konjevic Polje.
1 Q. And if we could just go down here, is that the road where the
2 little hand it?
3 A. No, it's a bit at the right.
4 Q. Okay. All right. And if we can now let's see how this thing
5 focuses on this thing you've circled in blue. Okay. Now, can you tell us
6 what -- I see -- we all see a building in the middle of the blue circle.
7 Can you tell us what that is?
8 A. So, this is the so-called hangar in Bratunac where the first
9 detainees were taken to.
10 Q. Okay. And what are the buildings around it? What have you
11 learned from the investigation that the buildings around it are?
12 A. The other buildings will be used later. It's the so-called Vuk
13 Karadzic school complex.
14 Q. And do you know which one of those is actually the Vuk Karadzic
16 A. The in fact exactly where the blue arrow points to is the Vuk
17 Karadzic school.
18 Q. All right. And is there a gym attached to that school?
19 A. Yes. It's a little bit hidden by the line of the blue circle but
20 it is the structure that can be seen just behind the Vuk Karadzic school.
21 Q. Is there a third building in that area that -- where you -- that
22 you learned was significant?
23 A. Yes. But not for that day. The building that is bottom left of
24 the hangar is the so-called old school, technical school.
25 Q. And that's where the little hand is now?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. And the -- if we could go back, we also -- if we go to
3 the left of the picture, we see some -- what look like -- can you tell us
4 what those things are, those long white things that are all behind each
5 other over by where the hand is?
6 A. A line of buses waiting to drive towards Potocari.
7 Q. All right. And if we could just pan back up so we can get a good
8 look at the town and according to the United States, this is 12 July 1995.
9 And this is again image 11.
10 If we can go to the next image, 12?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment let me stop you for one moment. Why does
12 he conclude that those buses were waiting to drive towards Potocari and
13 not, for example, to Konjevic Polje?
14 THE WITNESS: I can answer that if we return to the picture.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: The reason is that the vehicles are on a parking
17 lot. Would they be driving towards Konjevic Polje and then towards
18 Kladanj, they would be on the road that goes to the direction of Konjevic
19 Polje. At this moment, many of them are on the parking place.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. All right. If we could go to the next one? And this is 12. A
23 bit fuzzy but can you tell us what this is?
24 A. So this is an extract of a video film from helicopter showing
25 Bratunac town and the yellow square marks the approximate location of the
1 hangar and this shows that it's very close by of the middle of the town,
2 centre of the town.
3 Q. All right. Let's go to 13, and what is this?
4 A. This is a ground photograph taken from this hangar. I would
5 assess it was taken in summer 1997 and this is a photograph that was shown
6 to a person who claimed having been detained there and who recognised the
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?
9 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I've let this go on. This
10 is exactly -- this testimony is exactly the motion that we filed to
11 address this situation. He's just nothing but giving speculation, the
12 buses had to be going there because they are on a parking lot. He wasn't
13 there in 1995. This last answer, for example, "I would assess it is taken
14 in the summer of 1997."
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps he can explain why he makes that assessment.
16 Yes, Mr. Ruez, why do you state that you make -- you assess that
17 this was taken in summer of 1997?
18 THE WITNESS: First I must say that I am the person who took that
19 photograph. We could not -- I did not go to Bratunac town in 1996. So we
20 went on a mission there but I would not be able to say, to remember if it
21 was in April or in June 1997.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that resolves the issue that you raised
23 Mr. Meek. Speculation is one way that you certainly cannot really refer
24 to this part of the witness's testimony.
25 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I would agree that that last answer
1 would --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not speculation.
3 MR. MEEK -- he gave the question to -- he gave to the last
4 question presented to him, the answer. However, to go back to 12, go back
5 to 13, and 11, I mean, it's going to be a continuing objection. I'll stay
6 off my feet, Your Honours, but this is exactly what we didn't want to
7 happen and I assumed this is what the Trial Chamber wasn't going to let
9 JUDGE AGIUS: This isn't speculation, Mr. Meek.
10 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I can assure you, Mr. Meek, when it's pure
13 speculation we will stop the witness and Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Let's go to the next -- your next photograph, 14. This is a map
16 and can you tell us what section of your materials you've entitled this
17 extrication. What does this refer to as a lead-up to your next
19 A. This is a map of the area and the black arrow indicates the
20 direction that the column took in order to reach the area of the
21 intersection of Konjevic Polje, that's the asphalt road and then try to
22 infiltrate the area as we know through Nerzuk.
23 Q. Let's go to your first picture. This is 15. Can you tell us what
24 this is a photo of and what this yellow line depicts?
25 A. The road at the bottom of the picture shows to the left the
1 direction of Bratunac and to the right the direction of Konjevic Polje.
2 The yellow arrow marks the approximate direction taken by the column. The
3 goal of this photograph is to show how the terrain looks like in this
5 Q. All right. Let's go to 16. And can you explain what this
7 A. At the intersection of Konjevic Polje is a huge hill, and this is
8 from that hill that then the column had to cross the asphalt road. The
9 asphalt road is marked with an a dotted line, bottom left going to the
10 Konjevic Polje intersection and top right going to Nova Kasaba.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon first and Madam Fauveau after.
12 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, I would like to know we have a picture
13 here which is number 16 of 271 I would like to know where this picture --
14 what is the number of that picture in the Rule 65 ter list.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you answer that question, Mr. McCloskey?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: This does not have a specific Rule 65 ter number.
17 There are other pictures that do have 65 numbers that have part of this
18 terrain but as I think I said yesterday, the one area that I found that
19 was not as closely related to the 65 ter numbers was the area of the hills
20 where the column went and these were issues that were brought up in the
21 early part of the testimony and that -- so I thought that they are -- are
22 relevant. Of course, these hills are the similar hills that we've just
23 seen in the video but as I've stated before, and as I thought we put to
24 rest yesterday, these do not have always precise identical photographs of
25 what was on the 65 ter list but it's the same areas, the same places,
1 same -- many of the same shots, different angles, different clarities, and
2 I repeatedly asked if anyone felt surprised by any of the photographs they
3 have had for two weeks, please let me know. No one has said a thing to
4 me. I don't think anyone is surprised. I think this is purely
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon?
7 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I really don't appreciate
8 the comments that this is obstruction but nevertheless I will reply to
9 this obstruction. This is not a matter of being surprised or not
10 surprised. The matter is there are rules to be followed before the
11 International Tribunal. It is the duty of the Trial Chamber to uphold
12 these rules. In this case I have my colleague here who suddenly adds
13 exhibit P2103. Mr. President, this is an exhibit that contains 271
14 pictures. This exhibit has never been added to the list of the exhibits
15 the Prosecution intends to offer at trial. If they want to go beyond
16 their original list of 2100 they have to seek leave from the Trial
17 Chamber. This has never been done. Our objection, Mr. President, is
18 simply that we have prepared this trial on the basis of 2100 exhibits.
19 Now we have new exhibits. If my colleague cannot tell us exactly what
20 number this exhibit is on this list, then I object that the exhibit even
21 be used with this witness. There are reasons why we have rules before
22 this International Tribunal. We can't just say, "They've had it for two
23 weeks, they've had it for a long time." That doesn't help, Mr. President.
24 There are rules to be followed and we kindly ask you, we respectfully ask
25 the Trial Chamber to uphold the rules before this Trial Chamber -- before
1 this Tribunal, meaning that if there is a new exhibit, they must seek
2 leave to have this exhibit admitted, they must seek not admitted, sorry,
3 they must seek leave to even present the exhibit so that we know exactly
4 where we are going. Thank you, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. McCloskey, do you want to respond to
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I have responded continually. I
8 believe there was a ruling on this very issue.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Madam Fauveau?
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must raise an
11 objection to the line of questions by Mr. McCloskey and also to the
12 answers by the witness. We've heard already that he wasn't there in 1995.
13 He doesn't know, he can't know, where the column was going, which was the
14 hill through which the column went. If he wants to testify as to these
15 facts, he must say where he has this knowledge from.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he can tell us that without any
17 difficulties. In the meantime, let's discuss.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's start with Madam Fauveau's objection which
20 we think can be resolved easily.
21 Mr. Ruez, you have indicated routes here and streets and roads,
22 indicating the route taken by various people that you referred to. On
23 what do you base this?
24 THE WITNESS: I base this knowledge on the numerous interviews
25 that we had with people who walked along this path. I think even that
1 during the video we just saw, I don't understand Serbo-Croatian language
2 but I hear some man giving directions and this is the direction I hear
3 from them being explained. We also have the records of the Bosnian army
4 who indicate as having crossed this area. So more or less all the people
5 who managed to escape from this area, in between Konjevic Polje and the
6 enclave, all claim having gone through this area and mainly through this
7 hill. We also have several witnesses who from that hill gave us
8 indications that later enabled us to discover crime scenes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Now going back to the other
10 matter raised by Mr. Bourgon. Now, as I pointed out yesterday before
11 Mr. Ruez started giving evidence, P02103, as is, as it is, is prone to
12 raise problems in that it contains 271 images of crime scenes and maps,
13 some of which I think you concede do not have 65 ter number. Legally, and
14 procedurally, Mr. Bourgon is right when it comes to documents that have
15 not been disclosed under the 65 ter Rules. So what we are going to do for
16 the time being is that as we go along, when we identify these, they will
17 be marked only for identification separately, and then ultimately we will
18 decide on the P 02103, what's going to happen with it, because, as was
19 explained by Mr. McCloskey before, the majority or the great majority of
20 the images there do have a 65 ter meeting [sic]. So if they can be
21 collected together and presented as one CD with new number, that is no big
22 deal, and this definitely does not infringe the procedural rules that --
23 and evidentiary rules that we have.
24 We would appreciate from the Defence benches and we thank you for
25 having brought this up, Mr. Bourgon, any other images that will be shown
1 on the screen as we go along, that you find difficulty in accepting
2 because they do not have a 65 ter meeting -- 65 ter reference number, so
3 if you can identify them for us, it will help us later on determine
4 whether P 02103 should be included in the evidence as one whole or whether
5 it should be eliminated from the records as an exhibit and the records
6 would refer only to the various images that we would have seen in the
7 meantime and which have a 65 ter or some other reference that would have
8 been disclosed to you before. Is that clear?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, and I -- just to explain, I
10 have made a distinction from documents and intercepts and photographs.
11 The ground that we are seeing is so -- is covered by I would think 99.9
12 per cent of the images that have been provided to counsel. These -- they
13 may be different angles, different dates, but it's the same basic place.
14 Of course, when we are talking about a military document or an intercept,
15 it's absolutely essential for 65 ter.
16 I recall Your Honour saying that witnesses sometimes come and
17 bring materials and Mr. Ruez no longer works here and that's what he's
18 done. He's brought these materials with him in a better format really
19 than our old format so I will endeavour absolutely to clarify this but
20 that's -- and I also -- I've got it tell you, Mr. President, I was not
21 aware that the -- that the -- the location of where the column is going is
22 a contested issue. Had they mentioned that in their trial briefs or made
23 an issue of it I would need 200 more witnesses but I don't think it is a
24 contested issue and this adherence to this kind of adversarial system is
25 something that this Tribunal has as you know has gotten away from for good
1 reason. And that's all I wanted to say.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Incidentally, part of
3 your submissions are relevant for later consideration that we may need to
4 make on whether there is any material prejudice to the rights of the
5 Defence, particularly if you submit that these images from a different
6 angle or in a different format had been previously submitted to the
7 Defence but let's not discuss that.
8 What you both need to understand is that in the real life of
9 trials, we are going to come across fresh documents that sometimes are
10 brought over by witnesses who have somehow dug them up or came across
11 them, which were not available to the Prosecution before and which will
12 become available during the testimony. I mean, of course, permission will
13 have to be sought for the introduction of those documents in the records
14 as exhibits, but this is something that is going to happen, happens in
15 every trial, and it does, in a way, hinge also on one of the submissions
16 made by Mr. McCloskey, namely that this is something that the witness has
17 prepared for us, and which would not necessarily belong to those
18 categories of documents that need necessarily be disclosed to you pursuant
19 to Rule 65 ter. But let's not make a storm in a tea cup out of this issue
20 because I don't think it deserves it and we will mark this particular as
21 marked for identification and we will proceed. Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
22 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. We take good note of the
23 Trial Chamber's ruling. However, I'd like to point out that the
24 difficulty that arises from this issue has a practical difficulty. As
25 I've mentioned, we have prepared this case on the basis of 2100 exhibits.
1 We are just trying to follow when we see a picture there to try and come
2 up with what number it is so that we can go back to our comments. There
3 is practical difficulties associated with that. It is by no means the
4 intention of the Defence to try and be obstructive. We just try to have
5 the possibilities and facilities to do our work. And right now every
6 single of those pictures, not every single it's not true, for some we were
7 able to say, Oh, yes this is Exhibit 1560, but for many of them we were
8 not able to do that and that's the difficulty we have in following these
9 proceedings. Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Bourgon, but let me assure you that
11 had it been the conviction of the Trial Chamber that you are being
12 obstructive, we would not be intervening the way we are. We fully
13 understand your problem and believe me it's not just your problem, it's
14 also our staff's problem. It's also our staff's problem, and the same
15 problem was brought to our attention before the witness started giving
16 evidence and we are just for the time being playing it by the ear. We see
17 how it develops. If it becomes too complicated then we will have to take
18 certain measures to regulate the matter accordingly. The last thing we
19 want is to put you or put ourselves in a position where we have too much
20 of a confused situation or a confusing situation which would not let us
21 proceed and base our judgement later on, on something which is easily
22 identifiable. All right? Thank you.
23 Yes, Mr. Meek?
24 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'd noticed in the -- and
25 of course we're in the first chair here. I've noticed the witness has
1 been testifying from notes and I would ask the Chamber to enjoin him to
2 give us a copy of the notes between the break, the next break, so we might
3 look at what he's referring to.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you looking, are you referring at notes,
5 Mr. Ruez?
6 THE WITNESS: No, Mr. President. I have not one single note with
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
9 MR. MEEK: Well, Your Honour, I'm not quite blind but I know he
10 took it out of his breast pocket, he looked at it. There it is right
11 there. I don't know what it is. Maybe they are not notes.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the list provided to you by
13 the Prosecution, the list of the witnesses which have numbers on them.
14 This is not notes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with that, Mr. Meek?
16 MR. MEEK: Pardon me?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with his explanation?
18 MR. MEEK: I am satisfied with that explanation now that I see
19 what it is. There, however, is a sticky note on the back of it. I don't
20 know if he's referring to that or not.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue. Mr. McCloskey -- Mr. Ruez, you
22 don't need, the Trial Chamber does not require any further explanations
23 from you. It's satisfied with your word.
24 Mr. McCloskey?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: You lost track. Same here. I think before you put
2 your next question, let me just go back.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Maybe we should just go directly to
4 cross-examination, Your Honour. But that's cheating. I'll go through. I
5 think we are done with this.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, if it's nothing new, please sit down.
7 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, it is something new. My colleague
8 keeps doing this useless senseless and with all due respect stupid
9 comments and we would like him to refrain from making such comments about
10 the Defence.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, Mr. McCloskey, I object myself to this
12 unparliamentary kind of language.
13 My dear counsel and Prosecutor, you have a good two, three years
14 here in this trial. It's in everybody's interest, particularly your
15 interest, to create and continue having an environment which is friendly,
16 fair and which is conducive to a proper administration of justice and the
17 continuation of the trial. If as has happened in other trials the
18 environment becomes poisoned, if it becomes bitter, you will gain nothing
19 out of it except that we will be required to intervene with a strong hand
20 to make sure that the rules of ethics and the procedural rules are
21 observed to the letter. At that point in time, there will be no longer
22 flexibility. There will be no longer nice words like I'm saying now. So
23 my suggestion to you is that you try your best not to exchange hard words
24 or words which can stick in the back of your mind. Please try to
25 cooperate one with the other, one side with the other, as much as you can,
1 and keep the environment as easy-going as possible.
2 I suggest, Mr. McCloskey, that we close it here and you proceed
3 with your next question.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Let's go to number 17, Mr. Ruez's next image. It's a split image.
6 Can you tell us, Mr. Ruez, what the photo on the left and right, they
7 appear to be a joined image but can you tell us about them and what you're
8 trying to express in this photograph?
9 A. So this is a photograph I took in April 1997, the date is bottom
10 right of the picture. This is why I recall precisely. It shows the
11 intersection of Konjevic Polje at that date, intersection that you can see
12 at the right of the picture, and again, the yellow arrow, this picture
13 being taken from the bottom of the hill that we saw on the previous
14 picture, indicates the rough direction that most of the people were trying
15 to take in order to get out of this area.
16 Q. And can you just orient us to this, if we could put the little
17 cursor, what direction is the little hand in?
18 A. The top of the picture is the direction north towards Zvornik.
19 Q. And now let's go over here where there is another street. Where
20 does that road go to the rite of the photograph?
21 A. Middle right of the right photograph it goes from the intersection
22 of Konjevic Polje towards Kravica and Bratunac.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this also one of those non-65 ter images? Or
24 Mr. Bourgon, do you know, can you help us there? Without obstructing?
25 MR. BOURGON: Unfortunately, Mr. President, we can't tell.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So again, this would be marked for identification
2 only for the time being.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, my recollection is there are
4 several photographs of the intersection of Konjevic Polje both from the
5 air and the ground and this identical one may not be there but that's --
6 that's the way I have interpreted actually it has a 65 ter number of 1617,
7 but that's the kind of thing where I have interpreted photos differently
8 from my colleague, Mr. Bourgon.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that you
11 made a very sensible suggestion which was to put these photos on a CD-ROM
12 which could be disclosed to the Defence. I do not challenge the fact that
13 we were given this by the Prosecution. I can't find it that's the
14 problem. So when we come to cross-examination, we can't make reference to
15 that photo, you see.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's, as said, it's not only your problem, it's also
17 our staff's problem.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, she is mistaken. This is on a
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But there one happens to be but the only way you can
21 refer to it is number 17 out of 271. That's the only way you can refer to
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's the problem. She has had -- but not the
24 problem she stated. She has had this on a CD-ROM a very neat -- much
25 better than we were able to provide the old Krstic and Blagojevic
1 exhibits. They are neat with an index of where they are taken from and
2 what they are from. This is a better product. I apologise for not having
3 65 ter numbers or having a motion to give them 65 ter numbers. I will
4 always endeavour to do that. I'm not aware that the intersection of
5 Konjevic Polje was a contested matter.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: But Mr. McCloskey, anything can become highly
7 contested in a trial. And without prior notice. Yes.
8 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President the issue is not whether the
9 intersection of Konjevic Polje is contested or not. That is not the
10 issue. The issue is in this case my colleague from the Prosecution says
11 in this case we have a number it's number 1616 or 16 whatever number they
12 gave out. Now, I brought this issue to the attention of my colleague many
13 days ago. Why can he just simply go through the 271 pictures and just
14 tell us what numbers those are? This would be so easy and then we would
15 know how many of those pictures are not or are new and then we could at
16 least limit the debate to those new pictures and it will be much easier.
17 Thank you, Mr. President.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President could I remind you of what I've
19 responded to that in the -- I have done that. With the help of some
20 people, we went through all 270 and we compared those to the
21 Blagojevic/Krstic items. Many we found were either the same or very close
22 and many we found were photos of -- but from a different angle or
23 different quality and the only one that I recall that I didn't find a
24 clear one of was these picture of the mountains but we have got pictures
25 of the mountains on the Petrovic film that you just saw. Those are the
1 same mountains. It's a little bit farther down. We have got aerial
2 images of this whole thing. If we go through and track and try to connect
3 these identically, that I mean that's going to take a very long time but
4 they are the same or similar. We can do that, of course. We'll do that
5 if it will help resolve the issue.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clarify it even further because I mean, what
8 you both say has a lot of validity in it but at the same time, we have a
9 responsibility to make sure that the rules are applied as much as
10 possible. So what we are going to state or to decide is the following:
11 Namely that we take it that having already reviewed these 271 images, you
12 should be in a position to identify those which have a 65 ter meeting --
13 ter number, 65 ter number. So what you are required to do is you don't
14 need to do it now or by tomorrow but please do it at ASAP, make available
15 a list of these images with cross-references to the 65 ter so that we
16 would know that image number 17, for example, has 65 ter -- is equivalent
17 to document with 65 ter number 1619 or whatever number you mentioned.
18 Any other image that you cannot identify, then that will remain
19 throughout the entire testimony of this witness until we finish with
20 P02103 as marked for identification purposes only. At the end, we then
21 will decide whether the entire P02103 should be entered into the records
22 as a separate exhibit, in which case we will also give instructions on how
23 this should be done, at least accompanied by a more comprehensive
24 statement or list, descriptive list of the various images it contains.
25 Does that -- is that fine with you? Does it allay further your
1 preoccupations, which are also our preoccupations, Mr. Bourgon? Yes, Mr.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will get that do done this weekend,
4 Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for your cooperation. We will proceed
6 and have a break at 12.30 or at any time soon are or later as you prefer,
7 Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we've exhausted the intersection of
9 Konjevic Polje.
10 Q. If there is something else you wanted to point out on this,
11 Mr. Ruez, that you wanted to communicate?
12 A. We gave the direction of Zvornik, we gave the direction of
13 Bratunac but we have not given the direction of Nova Kasaba which is at
14 the left of the photograph.
15 Q. Where the cursor is. Thank you very much. I missed that third
16 important direction. Okay.
17 Let's go to 18. Now, you entitled this map as prisoners of war
18 regroupment sites, 13 July. What do you mean by that?
19 A. So this map is showing all the areas where witnesses have told us
20 that they had been detained so we'll -- it's an introduction to then show
21 you every area one by one.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
23 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I just noticed that we
24 have the witness is referring to a term called prisoners of war. Mr.
25 President, we mentioned this in our pre-trial brief. Prisoners of war is
1 a term that exists only in the context of an international armed conflict.
2 It does not exist in the body of law that replies to a non-international
3 armed conflict. In this case the Prosecution has not specified which type
4 of conflict we are dealing with so I would appreciate if we could refrain
5 from using terms that are specifically applied to international armed
6 conflict. Thank you, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to respond to that, Mr. McCloskey?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, Mr. Bourgon for having raised
11 this matter, which would have been -- which would have carried a lot of
12 weight and would have been an extremely important submission if we had a
13 panel of jurors here but we know the law and international law, let's say,
14 at least as any one of you and let's proceed. I don't think this is going
15 to change anything. We know exactly what the witness is referring to and
16 if he has referred to them as prisoners of war, it doesn't mean that we
17 are considering them as prisoners of war or that we agree with him that
18 they are prisoners of war and that they should be prisoners of war. That
19 can become a matter of an ad hoc submission later on if either of the
20 parties wish to make such, but for the time being, we are understanding
21 this to mean referring to Muslim detainees.
22 Yes, Mr. McCloskey, first, and then Mr. Ostojic. So it's not a
23 question of size, it's a question of I think I should -- we should first
24 hear your response.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We agree this is not meant to
1 have any legal significance.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right I apologise to you for having basically
3 decided this without -- well, actually we asked you and you decided not.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour on page 38 line 16 and the witness has
5 repeatedly throughout his testimony referenced using the words "we" and as
6 he does here where he says, "where witnesses have told us," if he's a
7 specific witness I would like if possible so we don't have to go back to
8 this ad nauseam in our cross, if he's can simply tell us if he's done it
9 or if he's done it in cooperation with someone else. It may shorten some
10 of the cross questions but even this picture he says, "We have pin pointed
11 this from witnesses that have shared it with us." Who is the us? If it's
12 the Office of the Prosecutor then we wouldn't have to --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You're perfectly right. I don't think I need to
14 explain to you, Mr. Ruez, if you wish or you prefer to continue referring
15 to "us" and "we," et cetera, perhaps you could be specific as to who you
16 are referring to apart from yourself.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Can you tell us who you've been referring to?
21 A. Yes, first of all regarding the issue of the prisoners of war
22 label, I take full responsibility for this. I didn't double check that
23 with the Prosecution.
24 Regarding the fact that I often say, I mean, more or less always
25 say "we" in fact it's a French judicial police habit where even when you
1 do something alone, you refer to the result or to the action as the one of
2 a collective group. So I will as much as possible say "I" when I am the
3 person. When I say information was provided to us, I mean to the
4 investigation team that existed at the time, and I will -- I might say
5 "with me," if you wish, since the investigators in the team then reported
6 the results of what they learned to me.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And I would take it in addition, Mr. Ruez, that the
8 investigation teams varied because we are talking of a long, rather long,
9 period of time. You were there investigating so I take it that the
10 investigation team was not always the same, was it?
11 THE WITNESS: No, it was not unfortunately.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I also take it, Mr. Ostojic, that you
13 are not really interested in particular names. If you are, then we would
14 need to address that.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Not at this time yet, Your Honour, but there may come
16 a time, I think.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. Thank you, Mr. Ostojic and
18 thank you, Mr. Ruez, for your explanation. Mr. McCloskey?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. If it appears there is
20 something very specific that may be contested, I will tend to ask the
21 witness to give us his source. I may be wrong on what's contested but I
22 will go ahead and do our best.
23 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, then, we have seen that you have marked in
24 these little blue-green circles the various spots we see their names and
25 so I guess let's just we'll go through them one at a time and talk about
1 the photographs. So let's go to the next one, 19.
2 And perhaps you can explain, we see on 19 we see Luke kind of off
3 the map. Can you explain that briefly?
4 A. Yes. The spot of Luke is off the map because the map was not
5 large enough to show that area but my assessment is that it's more or less
6 accurate on this map. It is just before Kladanj that was the
7 confrontation line. And Luke is the name of an elementary school located
8 there, just before the drop off of the population that was transported
9 there by bus.
10 Q. Okay. Let's go to 20. What is 20 depict?
11 A. Exhibit 20 depicts the school known as being the elementary school
12 of Luke.
13 Q. And what is the significance of this school, briefly to the
15 A. The significance is that one person who managed to get on board of
16 a bus in Potocari, once arrived at the dropping zone, was separated from
17 the women and the children, and taken with other prisoners to that school
18 where he was then detained.
19 Q. Can you give us the 65 ter number of that witness?
20 A. He's not on the list.
21 Q. Some days -- okay.
22 A. Oh, sorry, yes, number 54.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you. And how did you find this school?
24 A. We found it according to his indications since he had told us that
25 he had walked a couple of hundred metres in the opposite direction of
1 Kladanj, once he was singled out at the exit of the bus.
2 Q. Okay. And from this picture, which direction would be that drop
3 off spot that we've seen in the previous videos?
4 A. A few hundred metres if we would continue walking on the road in
5 the direction shown by the road.
6 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot.
7 And is this the same building?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. And from where?
10 A. This is a view from the rear of the building and I took this
11 picture due to the fact that the witness said he had sat with a group in
12 the first moment under the tree. This picture was taken in presence of
13 the witness 54.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photograph. What's this?
15 A. The witness 54, when we were on that -- at that school indicated
16 that he was then detained inside this classroom where he was beaten.
17 Q. Okay. Let's go to 23. Okay. And we are changing locations now.
18 Where are we going to next?
19 A. This is another area where we have knowledge, people have been
20 detained. The first one I will talk about is Nova Kasaba.
21 Q. Okay. Let's go to that next. We are at page 24. We have another
22 aerial imagery. It's a United States aerial imagery dated 13 July with
23 the title that we see. It also has a sort of a squiggly mark and 1400
24 hours. I think we've seen that before. What does United States -- what
25 does that mean with the United States will allow you to say?
1 A. That means that it is an approximate timing. It is not a precise
3 Q. All right. And can you -- you identified some buildings. What's
4 the significance of that?
5 A. So this is the facility of the 65th Protection Regiment. We
6 know -- I mean, I know from what I heard from Dutch witnesses that
7 detainees were brought to this compound.
8 Q. All right. Well, let me just keep going. We'll hear from those
9 Dutch witnesses. And I've noticed that you've marked something as buses;
10 is that right? Why have you marked that?
11 A. Because they are three buses on the parking lot of the -- this
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's go to the next shot. This is a -- number
14 25, a ground level shot. What is this of?
15 A. So this is a picture that I took in April 1996, again the date is
16 at the bottom right of the photograph, and this shows the main building of
17 the facility of the 65th Protection Regiment seen from the road at Nova
19 Q. All right. Let's go to 26. Another US imagery shot. What is
21 A. So this is an aerial imagery showing the area of Nova Kasaba on 13
22 July 1995, approximate hour 1400 hours.
23 Q. Now you've seen Nova Kasaba from the air, haven't you?
24 A. Yes, I have.
25 Q. Does this -- is this a fair depiction of Nova Kasaba from the air
1 as you know it?
2 A. It's a very precise picture on which we can see also buses on the
3 road and the main point of this photograph is the area squared by trees at
4 the top of the picture and this is a second detention place at Nova
5 Kasaba, that is the soccer field.
6 Q. And did you receive information on the investigation that people
7 were placed on that soccer field on this date?
8 A. Yes. I remember having interviewed one person during the summer
9 1995, and on this photograph we will see it on a closer shot, we have been
10 told that all the little dots that are on this soccer field are -- is a
11 mass of prisoners -- I mean, of people standing on the soccer field or
12 sitting on the soccer field.
13 Q. Okay. Let's go to that next shot to explain that answer. Who --
14 where did you get that information from, that these dots were people?
15 A. We did not get that, I think, from the providers, because they did
16 not mark it on the picture, but aside the source that I mentioned as being
17 a witness interviewed in summer 1995. There is also another source who
18 confirmed that later, and who was in the Bosnian Serb army at the time of
19 the events.
20 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. And this is 28. What is
22 A. So the square in the middle is a group of people lined on the
23 football field. One can see a few dots little bit south of that first
24 group. And at the left, the long rectangle is also supposed to be a group
25 of people
1 Q. Now, this is a US imagery shot and it says, "people at football
2 field." So is that information provided by the United States?
3 A. Yes, in fact I didn't want to say it because I was not 100 per
4 cent sure but Madeleine Albright who was US ambassador at the United
5 Nations showed some aerial imagery from that area and the conclusion was
6 that the people who were on this soccer field were then related with other
7 photographs shown from the area of Nova Kasaba that showed disturbed soil.
8 Q. All right. Well, let's keep away from Madeleine Albright and the
9 UN, if we can. And it might be a good time for a break.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But not before hearing what Mr. Bourgon has to
12 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. At transcript page 45,
13 lines 13 and 14, the witness mentioned a source who was in the Bosnian
14 Serb army at the time of the events.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
16 MR. BOURGON: I would just like to obtain confirmation whether
17 these are witnesses who will appear in this trial and more information as
18 to who these people are.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Very valid question. The witness hasn't told
20 us who this person is. I don't know whether you are aware who this person
21 is and, if you are aware, you can answer the question straight away. If
22 you're not, we will then need to maybe go into private session for a
23 while, get the name, and then you would be able to tell us whether he's a
24 prospective witness or not.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't recall, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: But you will understand that this is a very relevant
2 and important question.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: It may be simpler just to withdraw that and go on
4 the evidence that we have.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic? Not necessarily because that person
6 eventually will turn up as a witness here can be confronted with a
7 question which would relate precisely to the information that he may have
8 given to Mr. Ruez.
9 Yes, Mr. Ostojic?
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, with all due respect, there is actually
11 two sources he mentioned he says first one source and then he specifically
12 says another source who was in the army so it's both sources. I don't
13 want to limit it to one. And it's this kind of testimony that we would
14 just ask the Court if possible that they can clarify the issue so we don't
15 have to revisit his testimony line by line during our cross-examination.
16 He mentions two sources. He has a list with him that he can refer to and
17 he should just simply tell us who the sources are. I believe that and I
18 would ask that the Court instruct the Prosecution to follow-up on those
19 specific questions.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Let's take that up immediately
21 after the break. Indeed you are right, Mr. Ostojic. He does refer to one
22 person being a witness interviewed in summer 1995 so a witness I take it
23 witness -- witness means witness in a trial, to answer in some kind of
24 proceedings, and then the other one, another source, who confirmed that
25 later and who was in the Bosnian Serb army at the time of the events.
1 Let's take that up straight away after the break.
2 And Mr. Ruez, in the meantime I would like you to think about
3 whether the mentioning of these names should be made in open session or in
4 private session. I think you know better than any of the rest of us. You
5 know who you're talking about.
6 THE WITNESS: It will be even I think useless to go in private
7 session because the person interviewed in July 1995 and then to who I
8 refer to as being a witness, for me he's a witness of events. I don't
9 take it in the sense witness in the court.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
11 THE WITNESS: I know there is no basis for her to be called for
12 this trial so I believe she is not on any witness list. Also, the only
13 witness list I have with me is the few names of those that we call the
14 survivors of mass executions, not survivors of the events. I could for
15 sure find the name of the witness I'm referring to and we have a statement
16 of her in the records. But I don't have her name in the head.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
18 THE WITNESS: And the other person who I call a source, and not a
19 witness, is because no statement was taken from that person. I have to
20 add that had I recalled that it was marked "people" on the aerial imagery
21 I would not even have referred to the two other people, human sources.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ostojic? Shall we leave it at that?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: For the time being we may, Your Honour but I'm not
24 satisfied at all with his answer, quite candidly.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take it up after the break again. 25 minutes
1 from now. Thank you.
2 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's take it up from where we left it. There
5 were about two persons, a woman that you said you can trace her name and
6 make it available. Please try to do that. And when you find out the
7 name, please let us know it. And in the meantime, if you will have
8 finished with your testimony, make sure you inform Mr. McCloskey about the
9 name. And the other gentleman who is a Bosnian Serb army person who was
10 in the Bosnian Serb army, there is no indication of any rank, do you know
11 the name of --
12 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, I don't believe so, because in fact
13 that person was working as a UN interpreter, was in the army at that time
14 I think as a simple soldier, and I met a few of them but off records,
15 since all -- I met three of them in total and the three of them had
16 indicated me that them and their families have been threatened if ever
17 they gave any statement to the ICTY and I honestly don't remember. I
18 remember the name of one of them but not the -- he had not been threatened
19 but to the two others, I don't know if I have any record of the meeting
20 that I had with them. Also, regarding the name of the witness that was
21 interviewed and who was detained on the soccer field, to find the name I
22 would need to have access to the records of the team or be authorised to
23 have contact with one person who is now busy with these archives, in order
24 to get the name out of these archives.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you insist any further on your submission,
1 Mr. Ostojic?
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Not at this time, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, yes, Mr. McCloskey, you may
4 proceed, I think.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I will try to stay away from
6 unnamed sources. But there is a logistical problem.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: We of course are not speaking to Mr. Ruez. If you
9 would like us to get that information we can but we may need that little
10 contact with Mr. Ruez.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I asked Mr. Ostojic if he envisioned but
12 I think at this time you can safely proceed with the next question and
13 then we will deal with this problem, if it is a problem, if and when it
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. All right. Let's go to 29. Now we see another aerial
17 photograph. Mr. Ruez, what is this of?
18 A. This is the designed to have a clearer view of the environment and
19 go from a black and white aerial imagery to a colour picture shot from
20 helicopter. It is an extract of the helicopter flight video that you will
21 see -- you saw some footages of and you will see some more of them. So on
22 the right of this picture is the soccer field.
23 Q. Okay. I was just going to ask you, remember question/answer.
24 Where the little hand is just going around, what is that?
25 A. So this is the soccer field of Nova Kasaba.
1 Q. All right. Just to orient the -- from bottom to top, what
2 direction is that going in?
3 A. The road going north is entering Nova Kasaba and the road going
4 south leads to the intersection of Konjevic Polje -- I mean, going south
5 of the picture because in reality it's the opposite. The top of the
6 picture is south and the bottom of the picture is direction north towards
7 Konjevic Polje.
8 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. And what is this, number 30?
9 A. This is a photograph taken -- I took in April 1996, showing the
10 soccer field of Nova Kasaba seen from the ground, grounds level.
11 Q. All right. Let's go to 31. Now, which site are we going to?
12 A. So this is a detention site at Konjevic Polje.
13 Q. Okay. Let's go to 32. And we have another US aerial image. Can
14 you tell us what this depicts?
15 A. Yes. The photograph shows a facility which is a former school and
16 that was the base of the 5th engineer Battalion of the Drina Corps, where
17 the circle is, is a little guard hut that witness 35 described as being
18 the first spot he was taken to when he surrendered in that area.
19 Q. Okay. Let's go to 33. And what is 33?
20 A. This is again the base of the 5th engineer Battalion, and at the
21 left of the picture you can see the guard house.
22 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, 34. And what is this picture
24 A. So again this picture shows the intersection of Konjevic Polje,
25 the road going to the north, the top of the picture is direction Zvornik.
1 To the right of the picture, direction Bratunac. To the bottom left, so
2 to the south, direction Nova Kasaba.
3 Q. And you've circled a building. What's this -- what's that
4 building's significance to the investigation?
5 A. Witness 35 declared that after having been taken to the guard
6 house, he was then put inside a hangar that was at the intersection. So
7 we have a photograph of a hangar at this intersection. This one is taken
8 in April 1997. I took it. Later, this place was erased and a gas station
9 was constructed on that spot. So it's more or less the only picture we
10 have of this hangar.
11 Q. Okay. Let's go to 35. Ground shot. What is this?
12 A. Yes. That's a ground picture that was not designed in fact to
13 show this hangar but it's the second picture that we have. So we only
14 have two. This one was taken by me in April 1996.
15 Q. And which is the -- what building is the hangar?
16 A. The hangar is the building at the left of the picture.
17 Q. Okay. Let's go to -- okay. Now the outline has got a little
18 video segment entitled, "Kamenica, ambush down to Sandici." We will play
19 that now but can you just give us a briefing of what this is of?
20 A. Yes. The video will start with a helicopter mission that was done
21 by the US army on my request, pin pointing an area on the map that we name
22 Kamenica. That is a location named by several of those who walked through
23 the woods, and designated as a point where an ambush, a major ambush,
24 occurred, spreading panic among the people.
25 Q. Okay?
1 A. And [indiscernible] them --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what he should be avoiding and where he
3 should stop. Let's not have a repetition of it.
4 THE WITNESS: But nevertheless --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. Mr. Ruez, we are in a different world now than we have been so
7 please just answer my question and we've -- we'll just go one step at a
8 time. I know you're trying hard. Okay. So this --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Put your mind at rest, Defence teams. It's as if
10 this has never been stated, as far as we are concerned. So that's our
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. So can -- so what's the video of?
14 A. It will then show a road that is the road that goes from the top
15 of the hill towards the asphalt road.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. And along that road at one point one could stop the picture and
18 show two storey house that is a reference point for two major witnesses
19 who will come and testify.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. And then there will be a piece of footage of our first arrival at
22 the Sandici meadow. It's an aerial footage.
23 Q. This is 65 ter 1590.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. So what's the significance of these areas that you're being zoomed
2 in and out on?
3 A. So this is showing the area of Kamenica. That's the hill that is
4 on the opposite side of the asphalt road.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. And the pilot is filming remains.
7 Q. All right. We had a -- back a little bit further we had some
8 white section in the middle of the -- right there at 53.0. All right.
9 Keep going.
10 [Videotape played]
11 THE WITNESS: This is the road that will then lead down towards
12 the so-called asphalt road, the road Bratunac-Konjevic Polje.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, we lost a little video there. Don't know
14 what the problem is. Sometimes Sanction does that. We are obviously
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Now we've just switched from aerial to ground. Can you explain
19 that switch?
20 A. This is in order to show the direction that those who say have
21 surrendered in that area took in order to go downhill towards the asphalt
23 Q. Okay. Let's continue. That was at 1.33.2.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE WITNESS: The voice is the voice of a colleague named Peter
1 Nicholson. Stop.
2 We might see the house now. Yes, he's zooming on it.
3 This is it.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. Okay, there is a white house in the middle of the frame. What's
6 the significance of that for the investigation?
7 A. We call it the two storage house not to make any confusion with
8 the house in Potocari. This is the direction that the people who went
9 down hill took. Then they walked at the edge of this house. This house
10 can be seen on the Zoran Petrovic video at several occasions.
11 Q. Okay. Sorry, we hear a voice on the film that's -- what's he --
12 what's he talking about?
13 A. We should just listen to him. He's saying that we are going
14 downhill, that here is the house.
15 Q. So he's just describing what he sees?
16 A. He's describing what he's filming, indeed. It was a way for us
17 to record our information when we couldn't do it in written form. We
18 were using video.
19 Q. And who is Peter Nicholson?
20 A. Peter Nicholson was working for the Office of the Prosecutor and
21 he was one of the few persons who went away from their duties in 1996 in
22 order to accompany me on the mission area.
23 Q. Thank you. Let's continue.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here at the left is the way up
1 towards the house. This is the so-called Sandici meadow.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. So on this video it's at 02.39.5, just a
3 bit before that.
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE WITNESS: The meadow.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. When was this shot?
8 A. I'm not sure. It was in 1996, probably -- yes, it was in June of
10 [Videotape played]
11 THE WITNESS: This is the way that the prisoners who can be seen
12 on the Zoran Petrovic video were walking along and leaving personal
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. About 5.53.
16 A. Here again the road they went down.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Mr. McCloskey.
20 Mr. Bourgon?
21 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just like to know
22 if we have a transcript of that particular video because this time I could
23 understand but many other people could not understand what was being said
24 on the video.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: No there is not a transcript. They have had this
4 video for a very long time. And it was clear and it's again this is like
5 a --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: But the problem that has been made is that it is
7 not -- there is no transcript in B/C/S. In other words, that it is -- it
8 can be understood by the English-speaking ones but not by the others.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that's in all due respect what they
10 have translation assistance for. If there was something of major
11 significance on that we would have provided it. Didn't think there was.
12 So if we can get that translated, and if necessary, but what you're seeing
13 basically is what he described. This is what the film they shot as they
14 received. They've had this for a long time. I've not received a request
15 tore this. We can, of course, provide that if it's now of interest.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?
17 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not Madam Fauveau.
19 MR. BOURGON: Excuse me.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] There is something in French that
22 I'm not sure what was said in English but in English we saw a document on
23 the screen on the monitor and this was translated by an identity card and
24 an ID and I think it is actually a permit for a weapon so I don't know
25 what's said in English but it is rather important.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Certainly. When we have these problems, which
2 I encountered obviously before in other cases, the way we solved it and it
3 was a more practical approach than having it translated in the form of a
4 transcript, was to give instructions that while we are seeing the footage
5 and while these words are being uttered by whoever is on the other side of
6 the screen, the interpreters translate or -- interpret -- go ahead with
7 interpreting the words into the various languages that we have, in this
8 case it will be French and Serbo-Croat. So what I can suggest at this
9 point in time is either of two options. One is having the -- this part,
10 transcript, translated into B/C/S. I think that would meet the concerns
11 of all the non-speaking ones and that would be also including Madam
12 Fauveau, just in case she has problems there. The other alternative is
13 that we go back, we start this footage again, and we listen to the words,
14 maybe we can raise the volume, and have it interpreted live in real time
15 while we watch it. That's another possibility. So I leave the option to
16 you, Mr. McCloskey. The second alternative would spare you both the
17 expense of having it translated and also the time involved. How long has
18 this been reeling, do you know?
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Seven minutes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: How long is this video footage?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's another 8 minutes more is that total eight
22 minutes? It's 8.42. Your Honour, that's a lot to ask the interpreters.
23 Normally when we do it that way we've given them a transcript. If they
24 think they can I'm willing to try that. I also don't have a problem with
25 turning the sound off because it's really not what we would like is just
1 the -- see the places you've just seen in the Petrovic film.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If the sound or the words spoken by
3 Mr. Nicholson are not important for you, yes, we can do it that way, but I
4 think the witness told you, you just listened to what Mr. Nicholson is
5 saying. So you just have to listen to him. So I don't know. It's your
6 choice, Mr. McCloskey. For us, if they are not important for you, they
7 may not be so important for us. I don't know. I wouldn't want to commit
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can turn the sound off, that's fine with me.
10 MR. HAYNES: If nobody else is going to respond, I think that's an
11 excellent suggestion.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can live with that. Yes, let's proceed
13 along those lines, then. Sound off. And let's continue with the
14 footage, and please, you try to explain to us what we are seeing. In
15 other words, pretend you are Mr. Nicholson.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. The only problem with cutting the sound is
17 that at the beginning of the video most of the time Peter Nicholson gives
18 dates, precise dates. And I might have difficulties to be sure of the
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can provide that information later. Frankly,
21 it's -- again that information can be provided. That's not a problem.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes. Go ahead. No sound.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Audio, I hope you can do that. That's not
24 something we can control. They can.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We can take this off and it will be no sound.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Audio, we have the thumbs up on the no audio and I
2 guess we are starting over again.
3 [Videotape played]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: But this we have seen already, no?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So can we -- can we go straight to where we had left
7 it? I don't think we need to see this all over again.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I agree, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's over at that point, Mr. President, where we
11 left off, so that's -- we shouldn't have a problem. We'll just delete any
12 sound for this exhibit.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
15 Q. Mr. Ruez, let's get back on track and left off with the video of
16 the Sandici area. We've seen this, this shot. Okay. Now we are going to
17 the next shot, let's go to 37. All right.
18 A. No. This one we said we could skip because it would be covered by
19 someone else, just a reference to an area to identify the place on the
21 Q. Let's skip this, then, if we don't need to talk about it. We are
22 now at 38. What is this of?
23 A. So this is again a view of the hills where the people were trying
24 to find their way out and the road that leads towards the two storage
25 house. It's again to show how the environment looked like, not too far in
1 time from the date of the events.
2 Q. Okay. Let's go to 39.
3 A. Same situation, this was seen on the -- on the film. It is the
4 path of approach to this house that can be easily matched with some of the
5 scenes of the so-called Zoran Petrovic video.
6 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. Now we have another US
7 aerial imagery. This one is described as group of people, Sandici, dated
8 13 July. This is number 40. So how does this relate to the -- to the
9 various pictures we've seen? Sorry.
10 A. In fact, one more would be even better. So this is exactly the
11 same one you just described with some additional markings.
12 Q. Okay. We are now on 41. And there are some yellow markings. Who
13 did those markings?
14 A. These ones were -- I don't know by who but these ones were
15 prepared for the sake of preparation of the trial of General Krstic.
16 Q. All right. And the one marked 'destroyed house,' what's the
17 significance of that?
18 A. Starting from the top, the yellow dotted line shows in fact the
19 reconstruction of the path that the people were taking before reaching the
20 meadow. The label "destroyed house" is the two storage house we can see
21 both on the film and on the picture that just showed. At the right, the
22 destroyed houses are also a reference point once we see the meadow, both
23 on my film and the one of Zoran Petrovic. According to the two witnesses
24 whose name are number 37, as well as 36, the wounded were put in these
25 houses. We don't know anything more than that.
1 Q. Okay. All right. Let's stop there. And go on to the next.
2 A. Sorry.
3 Q. Mr. Ruez, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to stop you. We've got to
4 go very strict question and answer. And Your Honours, Mr. Ruez has
5 something else he would like to explain on this. Do you mind in this
6 situation if he is allowed to explain further?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hear what he has to explain and then we'll
8 decide as he goes along.
9 THE WITNESS: There is one last marking that I didn't comment.
10 It's the area that points to a circle labelled group of prisoners.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. All right. And is --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
15 Q. Let's then -- thank you, Mr. Ruez. Let's go to number 42. Is
16 this related in -- to the previous 41?
17 A. Yes, it is. This one is a closer zooming in that area where
18 again one can recognise the two storage house. The road with some buses
19 on it. Then the approach slope that leads to the Sandici meadow and the
20 same type of mess that is supposed to represent groups of people, we
21 saw the same on the Nova Kasaba soccer field.
22 Q. And that's from the information provided by the United States in
23 this photograph?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. In its label. Okay. Let's go to the next one. And what is this?
1 A. This is a photograph that I took in 1997, summer 1997. I don't
2 remember what month. The Sandici meadow had turned into a corn field.
3 One can see at the left behind the HUMVEE to the left the approach path
4 that we can see the prisoners took on the video of Zoran Petrovic, and the
5 yellow area is an area that I have marked. That is approximately the area
6 where the prisoners -- I mean where the group of people was sitting or
7 standing and I did this marking in accordance to the aerial imagery we
8 have seen before.
9 Q. Thank you. Okay. Let's go to number 44. And we see now a split
10 image. Can you explain that?
11 A. Yes. The picture at the bottom is the one I just commented
12 previously, and the picture top left is an extract of the Zoran Petrovic
13 video, and the little yellow square at the middle left of the picture pin
14 points the precise location of where these people were at that moment in
15 the film.
16 Q. Is that based on your opinion of analysing these pictures?
17 A. Based on the fact that I went several times on this meadow and on
18 the fact that I indeed looked at the Zoran Petrovic video more or less
19 frame by frame.
20 Q. Okay. Let's continue. Okay. We are going to the next area.
21 And Mr. Ruez, which area are we going to now briefly or what's the
22 significance of this number 45?
23 A. Now that we have reviewed the map where the dots meant detention
24 sites, and I didn't talk about Bratunac and Potocari because we already
25 talked about these locations. This map and the following ones will
1 indicate areas where either alleged or proven executions took place.
2 Q. Okay. And so I see this red mark above Vlasenica. What's the
3 significance of that?
4 A. So this area, I have to find the number of the witness, witness 54
5 says that in the evening of the 13, he was taken on board of a little
6 truck, driven towards -- from the Luke school towards Vlasenica then
7 turned left direction north and after sometime arrived in a place where he
8 says he managed to flee before being shot. We brought him back to the
9 area and tried to find the alleged spot of that execution but we didn't
10 find anything. Nor did we find any mass grave in this area, though there
11 be explanations to that.
12 Q. So what does this red dot signify then?
13 A. It just signifies the approximate area where this witness says
14 this final event took place.
15 Q. Okay. All right. Let's go to the next shot. 46. We have now
16 marked Konjevic Polje area or is this Cerska valley?
17 A. Cerska.
18 Q. It's right between. Okay. Let's go right to the next
19 photograph, 47. And can you tell us what this is and orient us,
21 A. Yes. So this is a view taken from the 1998 helicopter flight,
22 showing to the right the road that goes, if you turn around, at the top of
23 the picture it would be towards the intersection of Konjevic Polje, and at
24 the bottom, it would go to the south, to Nova Kasaba.
25 Q. Okay. And the black arrow, where is that going?
1 A. The black arrow marks the gravel road that leads towards the
2 Cerska valley.
3 Q. Okay. And what is the significance of the Cerska valley?
4 A. So --
5 Q. To the investigation?
6 A. There is an in fact a series of witnesses who all have a different
7 approach of the situation.
8 Q. Let's not get into the witnesses. At this point, I don't think we
9 need to. Can you tell us let's go on over on what you found in the area
10 if it was based on what the witnesses told you?
11 A. So based on one witness account, who being on the big hill I
12 showed previously, which is now on the right, out of the frame of the
13 picture, that person saw three buses entering the valley, escorted by an
14 APC. He then lost sight of it, which makes sense when we see --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't -- we don't require you to state whether this
16 makes sense or doesn't make sense.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not what you are here for.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. McCloskey. Was that what your objection was
21 going to address?
22 MR. BOURGON: Yes, Mr. President, I think the question of my
23 colleague was exactly to the point what did he find in Cerska and that's
24 fine with us.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. Okay. Based on this -- and I appreciate you providing the
3 information. Based on the information you just described to us from this
4 witness, and other information -- well, what -- let's just go to the next
5 photograph. Obviously you've looked, investigated this area.
6 A. So this photograph shows in fact the access to this valley from
7 the gravel road that then will turn right towards the valley of Cerska.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. This one shows again the approach of.
10 Q. This is 49 excuse me for interrupting?
11 A. Showing again the approach to the valley and the road narrowing.
12 Q. Before we get into the valley I see that it's break time,
13 Mr. President?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we'll have to stop here for the day.
15 Mr. Ruez, we will resume on Monday, Monday it's a morning
16 sitting. Monday it's a morning sitting. And then we will take it up from
17 there, all right? I don't know what the arrangements are for Mr. Ruez.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, yes, Mr. Ruez indicated just
19 briefly and he knows he's not supposed to talk to me but he has an
20 administrative issue with his employer, that Mr. Ostojic and I heard
21 about, just that there was a problem and we alerted that to the victim
22 witness section but it may be something we can help him with in contacting
23 his employer if that's all right. I wouldn't of course talk about
24 anything else.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: The important thing is if you have a problem that
1 needs to be attended to, it should be addressed by the registry, et
2 cetera, but if it requires your assistance, I don't think there should be
3 a problem with that. But at least try to avoid direct contact if that is
4 not necessary. That's number 1. Number 2 is Mr. Ruez you've worked here
5 for long years. You know what your duties are. You're not to discuss the
6 subject of your testimony or these events with anyone between now and
7 Monday when you resume your testimony.
8 I thank you so much. I wish you all a nice weekend and we will
9 reconvene Monday morning. Thank you.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of
12 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.
11 Blank pages 1395 to 1416 inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between
12 the French and English transcripts (the English subtitles from the video
13 were not transcribed in the present document)