Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1417

1 Monday, 11 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam Registrar and welcome

7 back. Could you kindly call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.

11 Usual advisory to the accused. If there are problems with

12 interpretation please let us know. I see that more or less Prosecution is

13 in full force. I see no -- I notice no significant absences amongst the

14 Defence teams. Okay.

15 No preliminaries, I take it.

16 I just want to make sure of one thing of the first I would like to

17 thank you Mr. McCloskey for the Prosecution for having complied with the

18 directive of the Trial Chamber and having filed the details we requested

19 in relation to the various 271 images that are contained in the CD that

20 we've been going through. I just want to make sure that all the Defence

21 teams have received it. All right. I think it's extremely helpful, Mr.

22 McCloskey, because it gives us an opportunity to see where the images are

23 and you consider to be similar. Okay.

24 Mr. Ruez, good morning to you.

25 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

Page 1418

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you had a good weekend. You are going to

2 have a long, tough week with us here, so let's not waste or lose more time

3 and go straight to the continuation of your testimony. Again, you don't

4 need to repeat your solemn undertaking, you've already done -- solemn

5 declaration, you've already made that last week, and it still is in force.

6 Mr. McCloskey will be proceeding with his examination-in-chief.


8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Just to bring us up to

10 date we were in the part entitled executions area south. We had visited

11 Luke briefly and now we left off at image 49 on our way into the Cerska

12 valley as Mr. Ruez has testified briefly before, about some witness

13 information he had and so let's continue that trek and go to number 50.

14 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]


16 Q. Militia, what's this?

17 A. This is a picture of the entrance of the valley of Cerska where

18 the road is getting more narrow.

19 Q. All right. Let's keep continuing. Now, 51 what is this an image

20 of?

21 A. This is a picture of a site that we believed was the execution

22 site we were looking for.

23 Q. Okay?

24 A. It's approximately three kilometres deep inside the Cerska valley.

25 Q. All right. Now, did you find that as a result of witness

Page 1419

1 information or some -- some other information, without getting into any of

2 the information?

3 A. This was the pure result of the assistance of witnesses, two sets

4 of witnesses.

5 Q. Okay. And is there anything in this photograph you want to

6 explain or do you want to go on to the next one?

7 A. Yes. On this one, one can already obviously see that there is an

8 area of disturbed soil at the left of the hill, at the left of the

9 picture.

10 And it cannot be seen yet but the right side of the road is a

11 steep slope on which one can currently see that some branches were put on

12 top.

13 Q. And did you find anything eventually under those branches?

14 A. Yes. This will be the topic of the following pictures.

15 Q. Okay. Let's go to 52, then.

16 Now, is this the same area from another angle?

17 A. This is the same area seen from the direction of approach. The

18 top of the picture is the end of the valley so this is the way the

19 transports approached the area. Now, the hill with a missing piece of it,

20 is at the right. That is direction north. And the slope at the edge of

21 the road is at the left, direction south.

22 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one and what is this?

23 A. This is a photograph that shows the slope at the edge of this dirt

24 road and one can see that part of that slope is covered with soil and that

25 the vegetation has not grown on top of it yet.

Page 1420

1 Q. Can you give us a rough date of when you were there, when this

2 photograph was taken?

3 A. This photograph is dated June 1996.

4 Q. Okay. Want to go to the next one? What is this?

5 A. We decided to make three probes on the side of the road on a

6 distance approximately 25 metres long, so we probed the site with a prick

7 and once this prick identified possible presence of dead bodies, we made

8 three probes on that side of the hill.

9 Q. What is this thing you're calling a prick?

10 A. A prick is a long metal bar, very thin, that one can push into the

11 soil and when it's retrieved, one needs to sniff the end of this prick,

12 probe, and depending on the smell, determine if there is a possibility or

13 not for dead bodies under the soil.

14 Q. Okay. Let's continue. We are now at 55. We see a close-up of

15 one of the pits that you were digging. What's significant about this?

16 A. The picture should be reduced to 75 probably to have the bottom of

17 it. So in this first hole that we dug, we could find a few human legs.

18 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, 56.

19 A. In the one, in the middle, we found the top of a human skull with

20 hair attached to it.

21 Q. And let's go to the next one, 57.

22 A. In this last probe, we found the skeleton of a man wrapped in a

23 civilian jacket; only the top of his skull can be seen on this picture.

24 Q. Okay. And how do you know it was a man or were you just saying

25 that?

Page 1421

1 A. We were not with a pathologist that day but this was our

2 assessment and the picture was later shown to Jose Pablo Baraybar, an

3 anthropologist who was with the team and who identified the human remains

4 according to the pictures.

5 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, 58. Now, this is again a U.S.

6 aerial image called Cerska. It's a split image with 5 August in a circle

7 and -- sorry, 5 July in a circle and 27 July. Can you tell us what this

8 is?

9 A. So the interest of this photograph that we got after having found

10 the site is to confirm, indeed, the length of the site that is at the --

11 on the slope next to the road, so this can be seen at the left of the

12 picture, the picture being at the right of the split picture dated 27

13 July, as well as the fact that more or less in the same period of time, a

14 piece of soil from the opposite side of the hill was taken away and the

15 disturbance can be seen at the right of the road on the picture dated 27

16 July 1995.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, one moment. Over the last three days

18 of his testimony, Mr. Ruez's testimony, we've had an opportunity to see a

19 few shots, satellite shots which according to you, Mr. McCloskey, have

20 been provided by the US government. Now, what I would like to know is

21 when were these aerial or satellite shots made available to the witness.

22 For example, we saw shots which, according to the witness, showed groups

23 of persons in a field or in a soccer field, buses, now we see a shot of

24 what is described as disturbed earth. When were these made available to

25 him? All at the same time?

Page 1422

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, I will endeavour to do that.

2 What -- with these different shots, especially the grave shots that are

3 related to possible execution sites, as you'll see as he goes through the

4 testimony, sometimes the evidence led him to a spot and then images were

5 requested. Other -- a few times images came and led him to the spot. He

6 has just testified and I may not have made it clear that this spot was

7 found by witnesses and he later got this image but -- I'll have him

8 reiterate that but we'll try to keep that going.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I had anticipated this answer, this reply

10 from you. So I suggest that when he goes through now, particularly

11 excavation sites, he does tell us what prompted him to go there, whether

12 it was satellite images first or whether it was information gathered from

13 interviewees, and if he then refers to satellite images, he explains that

14 that -- those came after or when he made use of them to locate the

15 excavation sites.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, the United States has asked us

17 to refer to these as aerial images and not conclude whether they be

18 satellites or something else.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And just for your information.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I apologise to the government of the United States

22 and henceforth I will refer to them as aerial images.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: They are watching always, so we have to be --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


Page 1423

1 Q. All right, Mr. Ruez, I think on this particular one it's been made

2 clear that witnesses led you to the site and that you found this photo

3 after ward.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'm not sure we prepared for the

5 exact dates he received this material but we certainly will be able to say

6 whether it was found before or after the individual site.

7 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, can you just reiterate when was this -- this

8 image obtained after you found this site or before?

9 A. This was -- this picture was obtained after, I would guess

10 probably July or latest August 1995, maybe even just a few days after we

11 returned from this June mission, June 1996.

12 Q. Okay. And the rectangles on the right indicating disturbed earth,

13 was that consistent with the disturbed earth that you found on the ground?

14 A. Yes, absolutely, it was. I need to add as well that the yellow

15 markings are not from the -- since the beginning on this picture. I

16 added them for the sake of the presentation.

17 Q. And that will be true of all this imagery, if there is any

18 coloured markings that will be OTP markings?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Okay. Okay. If we could go to the next one, 59 and can you

21 describe what this photo entails?

22 A. So knowing what we already have shown, this photograph shows again

23 the piece of soil missing from the steep hill at the left side of the

24 road, also left of the road you can see two team members at this moment

25 busy collecting shell casings alongside of the road. These shell casings

Page 1424

1 were all found in the area where you can see the vehicles and the two

2 colleagues. I don't remember precisely how many casings were collected.

3 I think it's not more than 60 that day.

4 Q. Okay. Keep going.

5 A. On the yellow arrow on the right of the picture shows the

6 direction towards where the people fell along the slope and then were

7 covered with dirt coming from this hill.

8 Q. And what are these little numbered yellow things on the grounds

9 that are -- have this blue oval over them?

10 A. They do not mark the possible position of the people who were shot

11 there, though it's the approximate area. They do mark reference points in

12 order then to enable our crime scene technician to pinpoint where we did

13 the probes alongside of the road. So one probe was approximately at

14 number 6 on this picture, another one was number 4, and the first one was

15 number 1 at the end of this picture.

16 Q. But not in the road, I take it but --

17 A. No, no. On the side, the right side.

18 Q. All right. Okay. Let's go to the next one. Okay. So we've left

19 Cerska now and we are going down towards Nova Kasaba. So as we see on the

20 map at page 60. Let's go to the photo. We have an aerial imagery dated

21 13 July, which we'll do a little bit of adjustment. We see -- that's

22 okay. We see three markings, rectangular markings on it. Can you explain

23 where this is and what the significance of it is to the investigation?

24 A. So this is an area between the intersection of Konjevic Polje and

25 Nova Kasaba but much closer to Nova Kasaba than to Konjevic Polje. This

Page 1425

1 is a -- this is a picture on which one can see dotted line at the middle

2 left which is the line of sight of a witness who claims having seen, as he

3 was standing close to a pylon, in between two destroyed houses, three

4 groups of prisoners being shot from individuals who climbed on top of APCs

5 parked alongside of the road.

6 Q. Do you have your little sheet with that witness's name on it or

7 his number on it, just for everyone?

8 A. He's not on this list because he's not a survivor. This is a list

9 of survivors.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. MCCLOSKEY: We'll get that later, Mr. President.

12 Q.

13 Now, what are the two bigger rectangles noting?

14 A. Yes. The first the one in red is the location that we believe is

15 the site of the execution. The two rectangles, we'll see them more in

16 depth later, they show that on 13 July there was no disturbance in the

17 area where these two circles are.

18 Q. So from this particular image, you're just using it as a map,

19 graphic, you're not using it to indicate any actual disturbance or

20 specific evidence on the ground; is that correct?

21 A. This is correct. Only as a reference point related to the angle

22 of vision the person claims having had at that time.

23 Q. Okay. And let's go to the next shot. And what is this?

24 A. So this is a colour photograph of that same area that shows the

25 meadow with one house on top of it, one destroyed house at the bottom, and

Page 1426

1 at the left of the picture, on the hill, you can see a pylon of the same

2 type of those the witness says being in the vicinity of when he saw the

3 events.

4 Q. So this meadow in front of us, is that roughly where your red

5 rectangle was in the previous photo?

6 A. Yes, this is correct, part of it.

7 Q. Okay. Let's, at 62 now. Let's go to 63. And what is this? We

8 see a meadow with little yellow stickers on it.

9 A. The two colleagues who checked this meadow used a metal detector

10 in order to find bullets or bullet fragments embedded in the soil. So all

11 these yellow markers show the area where such bullets and bullet fragments

12 were found.

13 Q. Okay. Just for reference, is this particular crime scene and many

14 others the subject of a report of one of your investigators?

15 A. Yes, indeed. The report was compiled by investigator dean

16 manning.

17 JUDGE KWON: Sorry to interrupt but I had difficulty when the

18 witness says that witness was not a witness/survivor. Does it mean that

19 he does not remember who said this? Could you clarify this?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

21 Q. Do you remember the name of the witness that led you to this --

22 well, from information who you went to this site?

23 A. No, I don't remember his name but heart. What I meant when I said

24 that this is a list of survivors is that within the team, the witnesses we

25 call survivors are only those who personally survived from a mass

Page 1427

1 execution. Those people who managed to arrive safe to Tuzla, we do not

2 call them internally -- in our internal language survivors. The person

3 who led us to discover this site did not escape from an execution. He

4 managed to find his way out safely but without surviving any type of

5 execution.

6 JUDGE KWON: I think I understand. Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Kwon.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.

9 Q. So we just mentioned this site as a subject of Dean Manning,

10 report. I think we can go on to 64. Now, we have [French translation

11 coming over English channel]?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I think we've got a technical hitch.

13 We are receiving interpretation in French on channel 4.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I thought I was speaking French for a minute.

15 That's okay. All right.

16 Let's see if perhaps we -- okay. I don't hear that any more.

17 Q. Mr. Ruez, now we have 27 July aerial image and this time the two

18 larger rectangles show some disturbed earth. Now, can you tell us in

19 relation to your investigation the -- what the president had asked about

20 earlier, when in time in the investigation was -- was this received and

21 did you ask for it or was it one that was provided to you, if you recall?

22 A. So this one has a specific story because it is one of -- one of

23 two, although one that was shown in August 1995 by Madeleine Albright at

24 that time US Ambassador to the United Nations and she showed that at the

25 United Nations in August 1995.

Page 1428

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. McCloskey, because I think we need

2 to clear this up also in relation to others that we've seen and others

3 that we will be seeing. Who established the criteria to conclude that

4 what is indicated as disturbed earth is indeed disturbed earth? I mean,

5 for example, maybe you can explain it to us rather than I try to

6 understand it.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. The these very distinctive US

8 aerial images that I will try to acknowledge as such when one comes up,

9 the area in black and white, in white, where it says areas of disturbed

10 earth and then Nova Kasaba and then the date, that is information provided

11 by the United States that they stand behind as information they are giving

12 us. That's all that we can say about it. We cannot say how they got it,

13 we don't really know most of the time any way.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not interested in how they got it.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: That is United States information and conclusions.

16 You will see later on photos with little dots and, well, you've already

17 seen some, where the United States has concluded they are people or you'll

18 see one where they concluded they are bodies. So that came to us

19 originally as Rule 70 then they cleared it for use in the courtroom and

20 it's the United States giving their conclusions of what it is. You'll

21 also hear, in as much detail as we want to, Mr. Ruez's information related

22 to the information that the US gives us. So it's -- that's how it works.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this being presented in contrast with another

24 aerial view?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. If you look at the previous aerial image,

Page 1429

1 you will see these two squares without disturbed earth and so that the

2 conclusion is that the disturbed earth happened sometime between I think

3 the previous one was --

4 THE WITNESS: 13 July and 27.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: 13 July and 27 July. This is the subject

6 matter -- Mr. Ruez will hit a bit on this but Dean Manning will get into a

7 little mor detail because it can get fairly detailed and we wanted

8 Mr. Ruez to give us a basic overview but he can also give us the detail.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Just now to have a visual presentation of it, is it

10 possible for the technicians and whatever to have the two images

11 juxtaposed as we had in the case of Cerska? I know that this is

12 horizontally problematic but if perhaps they could be superimposed one on

13 top of the other instead of one next to another, next to the other?

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm getting the word that we are not that -- the

15 system is not that advanced, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. All right. Can we see the previous one, at

17 least?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. If we could --

19 THE WITNESS: Two before.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's two before, I believe. It's -- yes. There

21 is 13 July, and the two rectangles, and then if we can flip to 27 July,

22 and -- are those rectangles relatively in the same position, Mr. Ruez or

23 did we flip around?

24 A. No, they are not same position. The angle might be slightly

25 different because it's not the same flight but markings are exactly the

Page 1430

1 same.

2 JUDGE KWON: How about trying number 58?


4 Q. Okay. Let's go to 58. Now, this shot was provided to us in this

5 manner by the US so that it would be obvious but they didn't all come like

6 that. Some of them did.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move ahead. I thank you, Mr.

8 McCloskey, and I thank you, Mr. Ruez.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: But for Your Honours, these Nova Kasaba graves we

10 do not have witnesses of these -- of any executions related to those two

11 bottom rectangles, nor do we have survivors. So this is basically the

12 evidence plus the forensics of the dig that you will get just so that you

13 will know where this is. As we get to graves where we have more

14 information, we may spend a little more time.

15 Q. Okay. Mr. Ruez, I think we've got that. Now, these disturbed

16 earth shots we are going to get into, which the investigation did relate

17 to them, are we not?

18 A. Yes, we will for the time being just attract attention to the

19 location of the red box as well as of the rectangle that is at the left of

20 the picture.

21 Q. Okay. That's the same red box indicating that that site where the

22 bullets and shell casings were found by Mr. Manning and the group?

23 A. This is correct, and in front of it an area of disturbed soil.

24 Q. All right. Then let's go to the next shot, 65. Okay. We see

25 here the same at the bottom the same photograph with the disturbed soil

Page 1431

1 circled and then we see green shots. Can you just explain that?

2 A. The picture at the bottom is already commented. When standing on

3 the side of the road where the possible execution site is located, and

4 looking in front, you can see on the picture at the top, the colour

5 picture, the area where the disturbed soil was marked. It is in the

6 yellow circle.

7 Q. Okay. That's clear. Let's go to the next shot, 66. What's this?

8 A. This is a probe that we did in June 1996 of this area that was

9 marked "disturbed soil" on the US aerial imagery.

10 Q. Is that from the -- part in the circle of the former picture, 65?

11 A. Yes, definitely it is more or less in the middle of the area that

12 was shown on the aerial imagery as being disturbed soil.

13 Q. And this is you and human remains that were found there?

14 A. Yes. And the person at the left is John Gerns.

15 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. What's this?

16 A. So during this probe, we exposed six different bodies which were

17 close under the surface. This one you can see at the right of the

18 picture, what is the head of the man. In the middle is his back. And on

19 the sides you can see his arms. The yellow arrow is marking a ligature

20 binding this man at the level of his wrists.

21 Q. Let's go to the next shot, 68. Okay. This appears to be a

22 different person?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What is this?

25 A. So here you can recognise at the left the back of the head of this

Page 1432

1 man. He's wrapped in a civilian jacket and at the right of the picture

2 you can again see his hands. They are on top of a head. The next shot

3 will enable us to see that he was bound as well.

4 Q. Okay. Let's go to that shot, then, 69. And what are these two

5 arrows depict on this individual?

6 A. The arrow at the left shows a wire ligature that was attached

7 around the wrists of this man, and the arrow at the right shows the

8 position of the fingers. You can see a wedding ring at one of these

9 fingers.

10 Q. Okay. Now, these two sites of disturbed earth that have been

11 identified, were those fully exhumed by the ICTY?

12 A. Yes. They were later exhumed. All the sites in this area were

13 later exhumed. I don't remember precisely the total number of bodies. I

14 think 26 in this one and in total it is less than 100 in the area.

15 Q. But that is the subject of the forensic archeologists and Mr.

16 Manage; is that correct?

17 A. Absolutely correct, yes.

18 Q. And were done under your guidance?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. So I think we are leaving that area and we are going on to

21 the next area, I believe. Yes. And so according to your diagram, I

22 believe we are at the river Jadar. And can you tell us what this red dot

23 means?

24 A. So this red dot spots the approximate area where this execution is

25 claimed having happened.

Page 1433

1 Q. And how did you come to this potential or this alleged execution

2 site?

3 A. We had to come back to the site with Witness 35, who led us

4 through the part of his walk when he surrendered at the intersection of

5 Konjevic Polje, and from there, he directed us to the spot in this area

6 where he says, having been shot at together with a group of 16 others.

7 Q. Okay. Well, let's go through your photo accounting of that and

8 you can tell us the significance. Let's go to the next one. Here we are

9 at 71 and can you tell us what this is a photo of?

10 A. So this is again the same photograph I used to show the

11 intersection of Konjevic Polje.

12 Q. And can you again, we -- orient us again, just this, it's hard to

13 orient it from these photos and we have one new member that might be

14 helped by it, if you could tell us the road on the left, where does that

15 go to?

16 A. So the road bottom left is going towards Nova Kasaba. The road at

17 the right is going towards Bratunac. The fifth engineer battalion is a

18 few hundred metres to the right.

19 Q. Okay and the road in the middle that is sort of near the red

20 arrow?

21 A. And the road in the middle that goes north is going towards the

22 direction of Zvornik and you have to pass the canyon of Jadar Drinjaca in

23 that direction.

24 Q. Okay. And this time, this photo has a blue box written in by --

25 what's that?

Page 1434

1 A. So Witness 35 is the one who told us having been first -- not

2 detained but brought to the 5th engineers' barracks and from there, taken

3 to the intersection, and put inside the hangar, and the blue square is

4 showing this hangar at the intersection.

5 Q. And just as a reminder, this hangar Mr. Ruez has testified is no

6 longer there. There is a gas station there now. All right, and the

7 red arrow?

8 A. The red arrow shows the direction that a bus took, a bus loaded

9 with Witness 35 and 15 other prisoners and they took the direction north

10 towards the edge of the Jadar river.

11 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, 72. And I see the arrow coming

12 at us in the picture. Can you orient us here?

13 A. So this is seen in the opposite direction but once you will have

14 turned right at the end of the previous picture, the road then hits inside

15 these two huge hills and the arrow marks roughly the area where the bus

16 then stopped. We will see it on the other picture.

17 Q. Below this --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I'm not understanding here. He

19 said previously you turn right. Turn right is if I remember well he said

20 in the direction of Bratunac.

21 THE WITNESS: No. It's a confusion.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's put himself on the road driving, not in the

23 picture.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think for the record at least he needs to explain

25 that. So this is what was indicated as going north.

Page 1435

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, the red arrow. This is the continuity of the

2 previous red arrow but now the picture is seen north to south and not

3 south to north.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.


6 Q. Underneath that red arrow we see two lines, natural lines. Can

7 you tell us what those two lines are?

8 A. The first line at the right of the dotted line is the road, the

9 asphalt road, and the second line at the right is the river, Jadar River.

10 Q. Okay. And just to clarify, this asphalt road, that's the main

11 road north from Konjevic Polje to Zvornik; is that correct?

12 A. Absolutely, yes.

13 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 73. What's this?

14 A. This is the road of approach to the site who at this moment is

15 approximately 100 to less than 200 metres in that direction.

16 Q. Okay. Let's continue to 74. We have a -- looks like a helicopter

17 shot from above. What is this?

18 A. So it is indeed a picture taken from a helicopter. At the left,

19 this is the road coming from Konjevic Polje. The right is going towards

20 Zvornik. So in the middle, where the arrow starts is a parking lot that

21 could be a kind of bus stop. So a parking area. And the line shows the

22 direction that Witness 35 took. It's a steep hill that goes towards the

23 Jadar river.

24 Q. So what got you to this little turnout along the road?

25 A. The witness told us to stop at that location.

Page 1436

1 Q. Okay. And let's go to the next one. And what is this?

2 A. So this is the area at the edge of the river where the witness

3 said he had been lined together with the others, more or less where the

4 area of the stones is, and there he was shot at.

5 Q. All right. And did you search that area for anything?

6 A. So, yes. The area was searched for shell casings. Unfortunately,

7 not one single shell casing was found at that location. But the next

8 photo might provide an explanation for that as well.

9 Q. Okay. Can we see the next photo, 76? What is this designed to

10 depict?

11 A. So this grouping of logs on the opposite bank of the picture

12 indicate that the water line of this river might be quite high. So quite

13 an important flooding might occur during spring, and my assumption is that

14 the water washed away all possible evidence that could have been found on

15 this site.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's leave assumptions aside, Mr. McCloskey,

17 please, and Mr. Ruez let's limit ourselves to what you could establish.

18 Thank you.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Let's go on to the next one. Okay. Now we're -- we left the

21 Jadar river site and we are going to what you have entitled, "Konjevici

22 and KP 1 and 2." Can you -- before we get to those photographs, can you

23 tell us a bit about what these are?

24 A. So we had no major interest in the area of Konjevic Polje, since

25 there were a few witness accounts talking about murders happening in that

Page 1437

1 location, but individual murders, not mass murders. Nevertheless, we had

2 received aerial imagery in 1997 about some suspect sites in this area so

3 we went to these sites and checked the content of them.

4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. It will become clearer. So if

5 I understand you correctly, no witness led you to these sites but the

6 aerial imagery led you to these sites; is that correct?

7 A. Yes. It is correct, because these witnesses would not be called

8 to testify anyhow due to the very short number of dead they could talk

9 about, but since they are suspect sites in the area we still needed to

10 check that.

11 Q. Okay. So this image, 78, marked KP 1, did you -- was that

12 probed?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. Now, this -- what is this?

15 A. This is a helicopter view of this suspect area that was shown on

16 the previous aerial image.

17 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, 80.

18 A. The direction of -- are marked on it and the red circle spots the

19 area that was marked as disturbed soil on the previous aerial imagery.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's go to the next shot. What is this?

21 A. This is a ground picture taken with Nova Kasaba in the back,

22 looking towards Konjevic Polje, and the yellow arrow shows a spot behind a

23 tree line, so hidden from the road, where the area of disturbed soil was

24 visible.

25 Q. Okay. Let's keep going to the next shot, 81. Entitled, KP probe.

Page 1438

1 What is this, a split shot?

2 A. The photograph at the left shows the area of disturbance that we

3 have checked, so the entire area where now the soil is again disturbed and

4 at the location where the little backhoe is positioned, the probe enabled

5 to found -- to find human skull. This area was later fully exhumed.

6 Q. All right. And that will be the subject of Mr. Manning's and

7 forensic reports; is that correct?

8 A. This is correct.

9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. McCloskey, if I could go back briefly to Jadar

10 River site, can you see the number 74?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.

12 JUDGE KWON: So Mr. Ruez said that to the left is the left road is

13 coming from Konjevic Polje and to the right it leads to Zvornik.


15 JUDGE KWON: While we are seeing this picture, can we briefly look

16 at the map 6 or map 5, whatever. Is this site marked on this map? Map 6

17 would be better. Coming from Konjevic Polje leading to Zvornik, where is

18 this site marked on this map? We can put it on the ELMO.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President -- oh, yes, if we could put it on

20 the ELMO.

21 JUDGE KWON: Going up. Yes. Could you point to this point on

22 this map?

23 THE WITNESS: I would bet that it is the --

24 JUDGE KWON: Konjevic Polje is there?

25 THE WITNESS: Konjevic Polje is here.

Page 1439

1 JUDGE KWON: To go to Zvornik you have to go up where is this

2 side.


4 JUDGE KWON: This site is not marked on this map.


6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm sure we have a map

7 where that's marked but we will make sure we have that so it's clear.

8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.


10 Q. Okay. If we could go back to -- I think we were getting to the

11 next small site in this same area. If we could go to the next photo, 82.

12 This is -- Mr. Ruez, what's this map, graphic indicate?

13 A. So this one shows another probe that we did, being led by aerial

14 imagery to a site that is on the road going from Konjevic Polje to

15 Bratunac, approximately 400 metres east from Konjevic Polje.

16 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one. What's this?

17 A. This is a picture taken from the road in direction of the hills

18 and more or less at the middle of the picture where the tree line is

19 starting, we made a probe as well.

20 Q. And was that based on the aerial imagery we saw before?

21 A. It was based on these reports of individual murders and having the

22 possibility to maybe being led on one of these sites by indeed aerial

23 imagery.

24 Q. Okay. Then let's go to the next photo. And a grave. What's

25 this?

Page 1440

1 A. So this is the result of the search that we did on that spot, and

2 it enabled us to find an individual grave with one body in it.

3 Q. Let's go to the next shot. And what is this?

4 A. This is a split image that shows the skull of the individual.

5 Q. All right. And now let's go on to the next area. Okay. This is

6 entitled, "The Kravica warehouse"; is that correct?

7 A. This is correct, yes. The blue dot marks the spot on the map

8 where people were regrouped on a large meadow and the red dot shows the

9 approximate position of the agricultural warehouse of Kravica.

10 Q. All right. And can you tell us the names or -- or excuse me the

11 numbers of the principal survivors of this that you were relying on in

12 this next part of your investigation?

13 A. Witness 36 for the west part, and Witness 37 for the east part.

14 Q. When you say west and east, do you mean the west part of the

15 warehouse and the east part of the warehouse?

16 A. Yes, this is correct, west part of the warehouse, east part of the

17 warehouse.

18 Q. And we'll get to that. So let's go to the next shot. And what

19 does this indicate?

20 A. So this is a photograph I took standing next to the two storage

21 house at Sandici looking toward the east, and the red arrow points at the

22 white structure, yellowish structure of the Kravica warehouse that can be

23 seen at a short distance.

24 Q. Okay. Can you tell us just very briefly how the investigation

25 became aware of a potential incident at this location that we are calling

Page 1441

1 the Kravica warehouse?

2 A. From several sources. Some of them being people who passed that

3 road on board of buses, on July 13. But then mainly during one interview

4 conducted during the summer 1995 with the witness who has the number 36.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. And later, in 1997, an interview and follow-up contacts with

7 Witness 37.

8 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. And we are at 88 and this

9 appears to be a helicopter view. Can you tell us from where this is shot

10 and what's it of?

11 A. So just at the bottom of the picture is the Sandici meadow. It's

12 not on the picture. It is just at the limit under the picture. So from

13 the bottom of the picture, towards the red square that indicates the

14 location of the Kravica warehouse, one can have a sense of the distance

15 between the meadow and the warehouse.

16 Q. And beyond the warehouse, what town is in that direction, just

17 again to orient us?

18 A. Then it is the village of Kravica, and going further towards the

19 east would be Bratunac town.

20 Q. Okay. And perhaps we can blow that up slightly to get a better

21 picture of the warehouse.

22 A. We will have better ones later.

23 Q. Okay. Let's go, then, to 89. And what does this depict, 89?

24 A. So this picture shows the warehouse, the one we call the

25 warehouse, because it is a warehouse complex made of four warehouses, but

Page 1442

1 we only refer to "the warehouse" the one that is parallel to the road, and

2 on this picture, framed with a red rectangle.

3 Q. What's the purpose of the blue arrow?

4 A. The blue arrow shows the direction of arrival of the prisoners who

5 were taken there. Some by bus and others by foot.

6 Q. All right. Could we go to the next shot?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. That would be from direction from the

8 direction of Bratunac?

9 THE WITNESS: No. From the direction of Sandici.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Sandici, okay. Thank you.


12 Q. Okay. Now we have a split image shot. The one on the top appears

13 to have snow on the ground, and the one on the bottom was the same as the

14 last one. I think you previously testified about being in this area in

15 the winter. Can you just briefly reiterate what that shot is on the top

16 so we all are aware of that?

17 A. First the picture at the bottom, the general view of the

18 warehouse, that was a helicopter flight I think was dated 1997, summer

19 1997. The area boxed in red shows what we call the west part of the

20 warehouse, that is referred to as the picture -- that is on the top with

21 another red box. The picture at the top was indeed taken during the

22 mission of January 1996. So it is the picture taken at a time that is the

23 closest to the events that we have in our possession.

24 Q. And as you testified previously, the -- this winter 1996 shot,

25 that you were with a diplomat John Shattuck and you did not examine the

Page 1443

1 grounds of the warehouse and do a full investigation; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is correct. We only briefly went inside and took some

3 sample on the walls, just to have a blood test and check if it was human

4 or animal blood.

5 Q. Okay. So let's go to the next shot, 91. What does this signify?

6 A. So this one is showing the east part of the warehouse, the one we

7 call the east part, both seen from the air and from the ground. It's two

8 very distinctive parts of the warehouse.

9 Q. And could you remind us, you said one witness was -- the

10 investigation revealed was from the east and one or was at the east part

11 of the warehouse and one was at the west. Can you tell us which is which

12 by number?

13 A. Witness 36 was in the west part and Witness 37 in the east part.

14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. All right. Now we have a split

15 image. On the right corner is another US image dated 13 July, with that

16 squiggly 1400 hours which we've learned means approximately 1400 hours.

17 And then another shot, a more -- a green shot of the warehouse. Tell us

18 what this signifies.

19 A. So this is still the east part of the warehouse. We knew from the

20 Witness 37 that he was taken there by bus, before being taken inside this

21 east part, and the picture, the aerial picture dated 13 July, shows that

22 at that moment, just at that moment, two buses were parked in front of

23 this east part of the warehouse.

24 Q. All right. And then the shot up to the left, is that -- what's

25 that for?

Page 1444

1 A. This is in order to enable the Court to see where these two buses

2 were parked at the east part.

3 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one. And this?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Ruez, bottom part of this picture,

5 I mean the main photo actually, between the building which we are

6 referring to as the warehouse, which is parallel to the road, in other

7 words, and the first building, which is at vertical 90 degrees respect to

8 the road, there seems to be another shed or small shed. You can see it.

9 Can you follow me?

10 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Between the warehouse and the building to its left,

12 there is on the green part what appears to be another building which seems

13 to me to be at least twice as long as the truck that is on the road.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see it.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, if we can -- if we go back to the

16 aerial view that we have just seen, the previous shot, 92, I don't see it

17 there.


19 JUDGE AGIUS: So do you have an explanation for that?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. This is not a permanent structure. It's

21 a -- I mean, during the years 1996, 1997 and further on, this warehouse

22 has been used to store material. At one point there were a lot of bricks,

23 on another timing there were logs. This, I believe, is a -- is some

24 wooden structure there that is not a permanent structure.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to make sure of this, can we go back now, whole

Page 1445

1 series of photos of the Kravica warehouse, starting from 86, then, please,

2 87, all right, 88, 89. So we have it on 89. Do you have the date of this

3 photo, please? This seems to be exactly the same date as the previous one

4 that we saw because the truck is there as well. Although it seems that

5 the truck is parked there. It's not exactly on the road.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes. The helicopter picture is always the same one

7 because this is the best shot we have of the complex.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And that would be on what date?

9 THE WITNESS: That, I think, not hundred per cent, is summer 1997.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: At a time where the reconstruction of the facade had

12 started and that was indeed summer 1997.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Let's move to the next one,

14 90. So, okay. Go to 91. And eventually 92, where we were, yeah. Okay.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Let's go to 93.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Same applies incidentally just for the record,

18 alongside the vertical building, there seem to be two green patches, lawn

19 patches, or -- which do not show on the satellite image. Or they could be

20 there, yeah, they are there. They can just be seen. All right. Thank

21 you.


23 Q. All right. And what's the significance of this shot?

24 A. So this one is to introduce now the pictures related to the inside

25 of this warehouse, the west part of the warehouse.

Page 1446

1 Q. Okay. And let's go to that. And when you say inside, what date,

2 if you know, the photographs of the inside?

3 A. These ones are June 1996, though we have same ones in -- already

4 in April 1996, and some were taken in January, but these ones were better

5 quality. These ones are June.

6 Q. Okay. And what are the yellow arrows pointing out?

7 A. So the yellow arrows are pointing to residues that are the topic

8 of a long report explaining it is human residues, blood, tissue, hair.

9 Q. Okay. Again that report is a forensic report that will be dealt

10 with in Mr. --

11 A. Dean Manning, testimony.

12 Q. Okay, the next one, 95?

13 A. Again, traces explosive residues that can be see seen at the

14 bottom of the picture, for example.

15 Q. Perhaps it's quicker. Did survivors indicate they were shot with

16 automatic weapons and with hand grenades thrown in the building?

17 A. Yes. This is correct, yes.

18 Q. Okay.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: On what basis does he establish that what we see in

20 the picture are traces of explosive residues?

21 THE WITNESS: Based on the report that was produced on it later.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. In other words, visually, do they

23 present themselves in a characteristic way that you can immediately

24 distinguish them as explosive residues or do you have no basis to come to

25 that conclusion on just a visual analysis, then you have to follow up with

Page 1447

1 a proper forensic analysis?

2 THE WITNESS: When you see at them, you guess; once you have a

3 result from a lab you're certain that your guess was a good one.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?


6 Q. Then let's go to the next photograph.

7 A. So this is a photograph of a live grenade that was found just in

8 front of the warehouse in the ditch alongside of the road.

9 Q. Do you know the date?

10 A. I'm cheating. I have some photographs which have the date on it,

11 bottom right, but it's very hard to read. It's summer 1996, I would guess

12 June. It was either June or August, one of the two.

13 Q. All right. And how close is this to the warehouse wall?

14 A. Ten to 15 metres.

15 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. And what is this?

16 A. So this is a grenade handle, one of the grenade handles that we

17 found around the warehouse, mainly at the northwest corner of the

18 warehouse, so at the back of it.

19 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one. And what's this?

20 A. So this is a hole facing a window that is at the opposite, a hole

21 made by some device in the concrete wall of the warehouse.

22 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot.

23 A. And --

24 Q. What's this?

25 A. This is the same hole seen from the outside of the warehouse, at

Page 1448

1 the back of the warehouse.

2 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. And what's the

3 significance of this shot, number 100?

4 A. Witness 36 said that once he entered the warehouse he found

5 shelter into what he calls a guard house inside the warehouse, and this is

6 where he hid and managed to survive, avoiding the explosions and the shots

7 in that guard house.

8 Q. All right. Let's --

9 A. And this is the arrow that points to the location where this guard

10 house was at one time located.

11 Q. Let's go to the next shot to see that. All right. Is this the

12 area that roughly that arrow was pointing to?

13 A. This is precisely the area. On this picture, I have no doubt of

14 the date because it's written 12 April 1996.

15 Q. And I don't see a guard house.

16 A. So indeed, the guard house has been destroyed since then. One can

17 see obvious marks on the wall that indicate the fact that there was

18 something at that location, as well as one can see at the bottom that

19 there was a line of blue tiles to separate this area from the rest.

20 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next picture, then. 102. What is this of?

21 And how is it related to the --

22 A. Just next to one of the warehouse's doors was a pile of rubble,

23 when we arrived on the spot, we searched through that pile of rubble and

24 found a certain number of objects. In the middle one can see a bunch of

25 shell casings. At the bottom left, fake teeth. At the top, two cover

Page 1449

1 pages of identity documents. And at the right, according to what Bill

2 Haglund told us, being a pathologist who came with us during that search,

3 the white pieces are human bones fragments.

4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. Now, what's this?

5 A. So this again now shows the area that we call the east part of the

6 warehouse.

7 Q. Indicating the next series of shots?

8 A. Indicating the next series, indeed.

9 Q. Okay. Let's go to 104, then. What's this?

10 A. This is the wall at the back of the warehouse when entering it by

11 the large openings.

12 Q. And what was the significance of this photograph?

13 A. One can see a certain number of bullet holes at the back of this

14 wall.

15 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 105. What's this yellow

16 arrow?

17 A. This arrow marks a stain on the wall that I went to collect due to

18 the fact that this part of the warehouse had not been processed by the

19 team of forensic experts, so we had no blood analysis on that part. So we

20 end up having this one, the sample was sent to the lab and the result was

21 a human blood.

22 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, 106. I take it that's just a

23 close-up of the last one?

24 A. Just a close-up of the sample, yeah.

25 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one. What's this?

Page 1450

1 A. So this arrow points to one window and it is through this window

2 that the Witness 37 says, having jumped out, it leads to the back of the

3 warehouse.

4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. What's this, 108?

5 A. So this is a view of a back of the warehouse. The window that is

6 the most at the right is the one where the witness believes having jumped

7 out of.

8 Q. Just where the little hand is circling?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's go to the next shot. What is this?

11 A. This is a view now of the front of the warehouse, and there is a

12 window at the left of this picture under which something can be seen on

13 the next picture.

14 Q. Okay. Then let's go to the next picture, which is 110. So where

15 in relation to the window is this image?

16 A. So this is just underneath the window. It's a shoe trace. And

17 the shoe is pointing towards the bottom.

18 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. Okay. Can you remind us

19 what this is a still of?

20 A. So this is a still extracted from the video taken by Mr. Petrovic

21 on the spot, in July 1995.

22 Q. Okay. As he's driving by the warehouse; is that right?

23 A. Yes, driving by the warehouse, and --

24 Q. Direction?

25 A. Direction Bratunac, coming from Sandici.

Page 1451

1 Q. All right. And --

2 A. The interest of this one will be to make a comparison of the

3 impacts that can be seen on the walls.

4 Q. Okay. Let's go through that, then. Now, can you explain this?

5 A. Yes. So the problem we might face trying to compare bullet

6 impacts on the picture dated July 1995 and the ones dated January 1996 is

7 that once the door of the warehouse was reconstructed in August 1997, the

8 way it was reconstructed does not enable us to use the picture for

9 comparison. The reason is that the warehouse's door has not been

10 reconstructed in the way it existed in July 1995.

11 Q. Now, did the investigation reveal anything happening to that door

12 on July 13th, 1995?

13 A. Yes. According to Witness 36, once he was inside, and that the

14 execution was finally over, he heard the distinctive sound of a heavy

15 equipment that broke inside the warehouse. So the door frame of this

16 warehouse was later found at the bottom of one of the mass graves at the

17 Glogova site.

18 Q. Okay. Well, we'll get into that a bit later as will Dean Manning

19 but that's your explanation for this broken door frame that we see in the

20 left, the lower left shot, from January 1996 with the snow?

21 A. Yes, indeed, yes.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Then one could believe, because of some distortion of the video of

24 Mr. Petrovic, that the size of the door at the bottom is the same one in

25 1995 and in 1997, though, in fact, we will show that this is not the case.

Page 1452

1 It's a distortion of the photograph.

2 Q. I think that will become clear as we go, I hope. And of course if

3 anyone has questions.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, it is a good time to

5 break.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Ruez.

7 We will have a 25-minute break. Thank you.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, let's proceed. Thank you.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I think we've discussed

12 112, and we can continue with the explanation about the door on to 113.

13 Okay. And I think we can try and get that whole --

14 Q. Well, Mr. Ruez, can you explain what this is?

15 A. The one before?

16 Q. You want to go back to 112? All right. Let's go back to 112.

17 All right?

18 A. So the goal is to check if they are more or less bullet holes in

19 the vicinity of this door between July 1995 and January 1996. And in

20 order to do that, one needs first to have a reference point in terms of

21 height of these holes in comparison with the height of the door. On this

22 picture, one can see that between the 1st January 1996 and August 1997,

23 one part of this door has been rebuilt and that this reconstruction puts

24 the height of the new door at the level of the top of the windows that are

25 to the right and to the left.

Page 1453

1 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot.

2 A. So here again, determining the height is important because if one

3 does not take in consideration the way the door has been reconstructed,

4 some bullet holes that seem at the bottom of the wall are in fact at a

5 medium height of the door. This can be noticed if you look at the bullet

6 holes or the holes marked in yellow on the top and the bottom picture. In

7 fact, on the top picture, the area in between red bars is an area that is

8 later missing.

9 JUDGE KWON: When was the bottom picture taken?

10 THE WITNESS: The bottom picture here was taken in April 1996 but

11 the holes are the same ones than the pictures of January 1996, the first

12 ones that were taken, by you use this one taken in April because it is of

13 better quality than the one taken in January.


15 Q. Mr. Ruez, I think when you first referred to it these marks you

16 called them impact marks. Let's stick with what you started with and I

17 think that may avoid some problems though I think everyone knows what we

18 are talking about.

19 All right. Anything else from this shot?

20 A. Not for this one.

21 Q. Okay.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, can I see 112 again, please?

23 THE WITNESS: So here again the one important detail is that the

24 upper part of the door is now at the level of the upper part of the

25 windows that are right and left.

Page 1454

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Right.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


4 Q. We've seen that. Let's go to 114. What's the purpose of this

5 illustration

6 A. So this one is the left door of the west part and it shows that

7 the left door was constructed not -- the top of the door was not at the

8 level of the top of the windows but closer to the bottom of these windows.

9 And one can also notice that the door at the left is closely framed by two

10 concrete bars and then comes another bar, but the door is in between two

11 bars.

12 JUDGE KWON: Did you say it was west part.

13 THE WITNESS: This is still the west part but there are two doors

14 at the west part, one being at the right, the one that was destroyed, and

15 one at the left. This is the one at the left.


17 Q. Okay. I think the next shot is --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And the small doors supposedly were the guard house,

19 guard room was, no.

20 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. This is the one where the witness

21 entered.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


24 Q. Now we are going sort of as we view the warehouse, back towards

25 the right, I believe; is that correct?

Page 1455

1 A. Yes. Now we are back on the right door of the west part, but

2 close to what it looked like at the time of the events, knowing that on

3 this picture I had added -- I have added the missing bar that was framing

4 this door probably in the same way than the other one, as well as a

5 correction of the height of the door. In fact, I on purpose did it -- put

6 it more high than it should. It should be even at the first third of the

7 level of the bottom of the windows. Here I put them more up. But when

8 doing so, one then can make a better correlation with the photograph taken

9 at the time of the events, since some bullet markings now return in the

10 more or less -- in the position of the middle height of the door, no more

11 at the bottom of the door.

12 Q. Okay. So this helps us make more sense out of the video, is that

13 the purpose of this?

14 A. Yes, absolutely, and mainly to determine the proper emplacement of

15 this bullet impacts.

16 Q. Okay. Let's --

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. McCloskey, will we hear some more evidence on

18 this issue, whether this is the identical place or not? Are you going to

19 rely on militia's only?

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 JUDGE KWON: So we'll have a direct witness referring to the

23 place.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, you'll have two survivors, one in one side

25 and one in the other.

Page 1456

1 JUDGE KWON: In relation to Mr. Petrovic's video.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. Petrovic's video we are going to have one

3 investigator that will show you the whole thing. The part you missed

4 yesterday, it gets a little complicated, we will have one witness that

5 will talk all about the Petrovic video and the B92 video that -- we see in

6 the right-hand corner a televised version of the Petrovic video that we

7 did not obtain originally as part of the investigation. And that -- we

8 obtained it later. Mr. Borovcanin provided that to us. And so you will

9 see Petrovic video and the televised version of the video and get another,

10 more in-depth analysis of it, though this is the best analysis you will

11 see of the door and the reconstruction and the bullets. But you will see

12 other evidence that -- that impact marks were created on the front of this

13 building after this video was shot. That's what Mr. Ruez is talking

14 about. You will actually see witnesses that say they were there when the

15 shooting was going on, they left, they came back, and the shooting

16 continued. So that's what you'll see.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let us see what the Defence would raise here,

18 if any, so okay, thank you let's proceed.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Private session]

Page 1457











11 Page 1457 redacted. Private session.















Page 1458

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: I was listening very carefully to what my learned

4 colleague is talking about and he referred a number of times as to these

5 footage as Petrovic footage but I haven't heard him that he intends to

6 bring Mr. Petrovic as a witness here so maybe we can clarify this right

7 now because I believe that it is a highly important witness and he never

8 mentioned his name among witnesses that he intends to call on these

9 events.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to remark on that, comment on that,

11 Mr. McCloskey?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Mr. Petrovic is on our witness list, number

13 164.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And again, he is not a protected witness, is he?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: The journalist that has been public on this. He

16 may ask but it's not one that I have taken an abundance of caution for but

17 you never know what may happen in Belgrade.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, so let's continue.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Your Honours, I do appreciate those questions

20 because it allows us to be able to target your concerns because many of

21 the witnesses that have testified are testifying for particular reason,

22 that is -- may not be abundantly clear at the time they are testifying

23 but -- so I appreciate that.

24 Q. All right, Mr. Ruez --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I raised this in order to invite you, enjoin you to

Page 1459

1 as cautious as possible because people have been shot and killed and I

2 don't want anything to happen to anyone.

3 Yes, go ahead.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right, thank you.

5 Q. So Mr. Ruez, I think you've spoken briefly about this but we have

6 the Petrovic scene and the recreation that you've tried to put the door

7 back in its original place, is that roughly correct?

8 A. Yes. This is correct.

9 Q. Okay. So in this shot, they look similar?

10 A. Now they do.

11 Q. Okay. And in later shots, the perspective changes a bit; is that

12 correct?

13 A. The prospective of the door frame in the film is anyhow subject to

14 a small distortion due to the angle it is filmed.

15 Q. Okay. We'll get to that. Let's go to the next shot. Okay. And

16 what's the --

17 A. So this is -- this shows clearly that when you look at the

18 original picture, July 1995, the right part of the door, where a certain

19 number of impacts can be seen, is totally out of use for the sake of any

20 explanation about bullet holes in the wall, since the entire part that is

21 framed with this orange lines is missing.

22 Q. Okay. And this is number 116, for the record. Thank you. Let's

23 go to the next illustration, 117. Now, what have you done here?

24 A. So now, first, on the right part of the picture, the three bullets

25 which are on a line that are circled in blue are relevant to those that

Page 1460

1 can be seen on the picture at the bottom, and also circled in blue. At

2 the left, the area shown on the two pictures is the one that is in a red

3 box. In this box, one can see one straight line of, let's say three lined

4 impacts and one impact more at the top, to the right. Again, on the

5 picture, the original picture, the distortion makes it that the distances

6 between the top hole and the bottom left hole seems to be a bit longer.

7 Q. Okay. So let's go to the next shot, 118. Now, we see that it

8 appears to be the same as the previous shot but we now have some holes

9 that are circled in red at the bottom. What's the significance of that?

10 A. So taking them first on the right part, one can notice that in

11 between the time the two pictures were taken, there is one more bullet

12 hole just next to the bottom of the line of three that is at the right of

13 the picture and take the left part of the picture, one can count that

14 there are two plus one additional impact holes on the wall.

15 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. Actually --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment. The picture in the bottom,

17 the bottom picture is subsequent to the one on top?


19 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, can we go back to 117 and then slowly to 116

20 again, please? All right. Can we go to 116? And the previous one, 115,

21 please? All right. So now again we go back 116, 117.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, just for perhaps the recollection --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: 117, okay. One moment, 117. And 118? So it is

24 your position, Mr. Ruez, that the three holes we see at -- between 10 and

25 11.00 to the three holes on the right-hand side were in the part, the

Page 1461

1 concrete part, that was no longer existent when the shot -- when the

2 picture in the bottom was taken. Is that correct or not?

3 THE WITNESS: I put in reference with the two pictures the three

4 bullet holes that are circled yellow on the picture at the top, and then

5 in that same grouping of impacts, at the -- in the picture on the bottom I

6 say that there is one more bullet hole next to one of the impacts that we

7 can see, the picture, that is, on the top. And on the left side, I count

8 three more than in July 1995.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But I'm more interested in the right-hand side, the

10 three shot in a triangular -- three holes in a triangular.


12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, pattern. Would those be all part of the wall

13 which no longer was existent in -- when the photo in the bottom was taken?

14 Because especially the one, the right, extreme right.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, if we -- I could have added on the picture on

16 the top the line where the destruction occurs, one can see the picture at

17 the bottom, if we take the impact totally at the bottom, that the

18 destruction starts a few centimetres to the left. So doing the same at

19 the picture at the top would show that the one, two, three, four, five,

20 six, seven holes that are at the left of the yellow circle are part of the

21 destroyed piece of wall.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. That's your position. I will not

23 comment on that obviously. It can be -- questions can be asked later on,

24 on it. Thank you. Let's proceed, thank you.

25 JUDGE KWON: Staying here, I don't know how to exactly call the

Page 1462

1 long metal pole.

2 THE WITNESS: Concrete poles.

3 JUDGE KWON: Concrete poles. The right side pole disappeared at

4 the reconstruction but the left one, was it replaced? I note the

5 difference in thickness, and every pole seemed to me different from the

6 previous -- from the upper picture.

7 THE WITNESS: The pole that you see at the -- on the picture at

8 the bottom is a fake one. It's a pole that I have added on the picture.

9 JUDGE KWON: No, left one.

10 THE WITNESS: The left one has been untouched.

11 JUDGE KWON: But I think the thickness seems to be different, am I

12 correct or not?

13 THE WITNESS: You are correct because it's a question of angle of

14 vision. The one you can see just in front of the objective of the photo

15 camera, the one at the left, you already can see a bit of the thickness so

16 it seems larger. The one more at the left, the effect is even increasing.

17 It's the same when you look towards the right. It's a visual effect.

18 They are absolutely all of the same shape, same size.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour f it may help explain it the top video

20 that you -- or the top picture you see where it looks thicker, this is a

21 reflection of a moving shot as a car goes across the front, and we have

22 seen that, but -- so this is a still of what is a moving shot. And that

23 is, I believe, as Mr. Ruez said in the explanation.

24 JUDGE KWON: So my original question was whether you have -- you

25 are going to produce some scientific analysis on this issue.

Page 1463


2 JUDGE KWON: You are going to rely on Mr. Ruez's evidence in

3 relation to this issue? That was my question. And I take it your answer

4 was yes.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And one brief moment into private session?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while, please.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

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Page 1464











11 Pages 1464-1465 redacted. Private session.















Page 1466

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. We have no problem or

24 objection with the witness testifying about what he considers to be visual

25 effects and we can -- we have cross-examination for this purpose but we

Page 1467

1 would appreciate if my colleague would refrain from testifying in lieu of

2 the witness and I refer here to page 47 lines 7 to 11 as an example and

3 page 49, lines 10 to 14. If my colleague wants to put this in his closing

4 argument, so be it but at this point in time we would prefer to hear from

5 the witness. Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Let's continue, Mr.

7 McCloskey. Point taken, Mr. Bourgon.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, would you prefer that I don't try

9 to explain these things?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Let's put it like this. One has to distinguish

11 between one kind of testimony and information and another. I think in as

12 far as the witness had previously testified already that during the

13 excavations or exhumations carried out in some location, they had also dug

14 up pieces of concrete that according to him corresponded to the missing

15 part of the doorway, then of course Mr. McCloskey has every right to refer

16 to it. So I don't see any problems. Please, let's -- when it's

17 substitution of witnesses' evidence, we will intervene but not.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I understand that.

19 JUDGE KWON: In relation to the thickness the witness also

20 referred to that and Mr. McCloskey explained it somewhat in detail. I

21 don't see any problem there. So let's get on with it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stick to when it is really serious. Yes Mr.

23 Bourgon?

24 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I just want to clarify

25 what I was saying. In the lines in the examples I referred to it was my

Page 1468

1 understanding that Mr. McCloskey was trying to justify and explain why a

2 picture was seen by saying that it was a video picture and that it was the

3 reason why you could not see the thickness. I mean, I was just under the

4 impression that this is information that should come from the witness.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's also an explanation that we ourselves

6 solicited. I mean let's proceed.

7 Mr. McCloskey, yes, please.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. Ruez testified that at the beginning of this

9 that there was distortion because of the video.

10 Q. In any event, I think Mr. Ruez, we are done with these photos and

11 as you had in other sites, was there a video taken of the Kravica

12 warehouse scene?

13 A. Yes, there was one of the first search, and in addition to that,

14 the report that was also mentioned by the Judges is the report of a team

15 of forensic experts from the naval intelligence service, US service, and

16 this mission was conducted by them in September, I think, 1996.

17 Q. Okay and who is shooting the video we'll soon see?

18 A. The video we will see is a shot by Peter Nicholson and the voice

19 we will not hear with the dates and the description of the items is the

20 voice of Peter Nicholson.

21 Q. Well, I think for simplicity sake we decided the other day it's

22 better to go without the sound but we will provide any key information

23 that he relates to us, but I think for the purpose of this we can see the

24 video, and Mr. Ruez can narrate it, if that's agreeable.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go with the video and if I could

Page 1469

1 -- I'll sit down.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are proceeding along the same lines as we did

3 last week, on the assumption that there are no objections from the Defence

4 teams. And since I have heard none, okay, let's proceed.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: This is again the Sandici meadow. I filmed this

7 little piece in August 1997 to show the distance between Sandici and

8 Kravica. Then be -- back in 1996. So this is at the level of the two

9 storage house at Sandici and zooming towards the Kravica warehouse, in the

10 middle of the picture.

11 This is a helicopter view. At the bottom left is Kravica. Then

12 there is open land, and the Kravica warehouse. The geography behind the

13 warehouse is of interest for one of the witnesses who escaped from the

14 back of the warehouse, going through a corn field, then another field and

15 then up here in forest. Crossing a little brook. So here, for example,

16 you can see piles of logs in front of the warehouse. They were not there

17 in 1995. Logs and piles of bricks.

18 The date was on the picture.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we get -- delete the audio, folks in the

20 booth?

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE WITNESS: Just behind this fence was the grenade.

23 So this is the entrance that took the Witness 36.

24 Yes, getting inside. The former guard house at the left.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have not noted the counter but perhaps it's

Page 1470

1 simpler just to let it run.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE WITNESS: So that's a view of the destroyed entrance, from the

4 inside.

5 That's the back of the warehouse.

6 And a former cornfield.

7 On that cornfield, Peter Nicholson is zooming on shell casings.

8 Back at the front of the warehouse.

9 Now he's entering the east part. The prisoners were sitting at

10 the left.

11 The inside of the warehouse has not been cleaned so far. Maybe it

12 is done now but last year there were still a lot of samples to be

13 collected inside.

14 Here is a pile of rubble that we were searching through.

15 The location where the live grenade was found.

16 The result of that search that I already described.

17 Yellow markers that pinpoint the position of shell casings that

18 were found on the area of grass in front of the meadow -- in front of the

19 warehouse.

20 Now making the tour of the warehouse, at the back.

21 That's a grenade handle.

22 So this is the back of the warehouse, one grenade handle, that's

23 another grenade handle, one more grenade handle, two more grenade

24 handles, a shoe, an additional grenade handle.

25 He's returning on the same area. That's the same. I think he

Page 1471

1 was missing one or two handles.

2 And now he's showing the window at the back of the warehouse,

3 under which the handles were found, as well as the other window.

4 He's showing shell casings. Shell casing.

5 Fragment of identity card. Another cover of ID.

6 Fragment of a skull.

7 This is behind the warehouse complex, passing a little brook and

8 going then to the direction of the hills. That is the escape route of

9 survivor 37.

10 And this is a skeleton find -- found behind, and that pathologist

11 Bill Haglund is reconstructing.

12 Another grenade handle, in front of the warehouse.


14 Q. Okay. And for the record, this video is 65 ter number 1575. All

15 right. So now we are moving beyond Kravica. Where is our next stop, Mr.

16 Ruez?

17 A. The next one is the location where the prisoners who survived that

18 day were transported to, that is Bratunac town.

19 Q. All right. Let's go to 119. And this is a U.S. image dated 12

20 July, I believe similar to one we had seen before. This time there are

21 some notations on it. And what do you want to call our attention to on

22 this?

23 A. The interesting spots here are the three arrows at the right

24 marking the location of the Vuk Karadzic school, that is a known extension

25 side, the hangar behind the Vuk Karadzic school, as well as the old

Page 1472

1 school.

2 Q. All right. Thank you, let's go on.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, this was -- photo was provided without

4 time indication; is that correct?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is correct.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

7 THE WITNESS: And the yellow markings were done for the sake of

8 the trial of General Krstic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And we are not in a position to know when this was

10 taken, when this was shot?


12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Except that it does confirm that it was

13 shot on the 12th of July. It's the time that I am referring to in

14 particular, not the date.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And Mr. President, we can always request -- if the

16 Court would like the times, we can request that.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Because we have seen another one, almost identical

18 to it with the buses lined up in the area adjacent to the football field.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. We have not -- we --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It is the same one actually -- actually, yes. The

21 buses, you can still see them over there, buses you can see. Is this the

22 same photo we saw earlier on, Mr. Ruez?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is exactly the same one and according to the

24 shade it's obviously around noon.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will be calling an Indian guide that will be

Page 1473

1 helping us with that, Your Honours. We were very economical with our

2 requests to the US about times. Back then, as I said if the court would

3 like us to make any request, we can.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Which was the previous one that we saw?

5 THE WITNESS: It's the same one.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it number 10? No. Graphic. Bratunac flyover.

7 Number 11.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That's number 11.

9 THE WITNESS: 11, yeah.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. Let's move.


12 Q. Let's go back to where we were. Okay. Let's go to the next shot.

13 And orient us to the -- to these photos, on 120, please?

14 A. The idea of this is to show how the place looked like at one

15 point. This is probably dated summer 1997, at the -- when entering the

16 Vuk Karadzic school complex, the Vuk Karadzic school is at the left of the

17 picture. Then the white wall corresponds to the gymnasium of the Vuk

18 Karadzic school. At the right of the gymnasium is the so-called hangar

19 that I know does not exist any longer nowadays. And at the right of this

20 hangar is the so-called old school that was also used as a detention

21 centre.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The part of the picture that shows according to you

23 Vuk Karadzic school, is it the front or the rear of the building?

24 THE WITNESS: This is the rear of the building.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought so.

Page 1474

1 THE WITNESS: The front is alongside of the street.


3 Q. Okay. If we can go to the next image? This is -- looks similar

4 to the image we've seen already. For some reason there is not a date on

5 it. What's the purpose of this?

6 A. The purpose of this was to show the main locations where prisoners

7 were to be seen in Bratunac town on 13 July. So the red circle spots the

8 Vuk Karadzic school, hangar and old school. The line in front is not in

9 the good position. It's a line that symbolises buses and trucks. In

10 fact, it was not parallel to the school, but lined in the street just in

11 front of the school. The line at the bottom of the picture shows a line

12 of buses -- symbolises a line of buses in front of the Vihor garage. One

13 line is policing in centre town but I was not certain about it. Next to

14 Hotel Fontana. And the line at the top of the picture symbolises a few

15 buses that were seen by UN military personnel in front of the Bratunac

16 Brigade headquarters.

17 Q. I think that's all for Bratunac and we are moving on. Now we are

18 going up --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. And at the line of the -- at the top of

20 the picture, and at the line at the top of the picture symbolises a few

21 bus that is were seen by you and military personnel in front of the

22 Bratunac Brigade headquarters." Which one? Oh, I see the red line that

23 crosses the box.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes because the box is hiding the so-called Kaolin

25 factory and the HQ was in front of this factory.

Page 1475

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's the UN military personnel. I

2 suppose you have got evidence on this, Mr. McCloskey?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. There is lots of people.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's enough. That's enough. Thank you.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we also have another photograph that doesn't

6 block out the headquarters but that we'll bring in through another

7 witness.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And why does he -- the photo also indicate any --

9 the location of the SDS office? What's the relevance of that?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: There is a witness you'll be hearing,

11 Mr. Deronjic, the head of the SDS and he was at his office at various

12 times during the events.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go ahead.


15 Q. Now, we have on the outline a note of a video of the Nova Kasaba

16 graves. Is that meant to be played now?

17 A. Yes, it could be played now, absolutely.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Then if we could do that. So we are

19 going back into the chronology of our presentation, back to Nova Kasaba.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sorry for that interruption, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could play this? And Mr. Ruez, if you

22 could have your same limited narration that we appreciated before? This

23 is 65 ter 1686.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: So to have a feeling much how the area looks like

Page 1476

1 here, this is coming out of the valley of Cerska, intersection of

2 Konjievici they left and currently flying along the road that goes to Nova

3 Kasaba. And here just in the middle of the picture is the supposed

4 execution field we are talking about, and at the left the mass grave

5 areas. Now the zoom in is on a second mass grave area. Still the road in

6 the direction of Nova Kasaba, in the direction of the soccer field and

7 behind is Nova Kasaba town. Here is Nova Kasaba town. Overflying Nova

8 Kasaba and returning direction north.

9 In the middle, the soccer field, middle left, right here.

10 Then the beginning of the hill that goes at its highest elevation

11 at the intersection of Konjevic Polje. So this is the area from which the

12 people could overlook the asphalt road before trying to find a way to

13 cross the asphalt road. Again, the suspect execution site bottom left and

14 the mass grave area just in front of it.


16 Q. All right. Well, that concludes what you've entitled executions

17 area south.

18 Now your outline is entitled, "Executions area north." And if we

19 could go to 120 -- okay, let's start there and we see that on this, 122,

20 you've circled a yellow dot in the area of or Orahovac. Where is our next

21 stop?

22 A. This shows the area between Srebrenica and Kraj -- the town of

23 Bratunac and the first known detention side in what we call indeed area

24 north, that is the school we used to name as being the Grbavci school but

25 that seems also to be the Orahovac school. We used to name it Grbavci.

Page 1477

1 Q. Before we get to this Orahovac or Grbavci school, can you

2 briefly tell us how you became aware of this school, if you recall?

3 A. Yes, for sure. During the summer 1995, we interviewed several

4 persons who claim having been detained in a school that had a gym attached

5 to it and that was in the area close to Zvornik, and then after having

6 been taken to an execution site, they had as a reference point a railroad

7 line. Our first attempt to identify the location came through a teacher

8 who was a refugee in Tuzla and who had worked in that area and who said

9 that the only school with a gym in this area west of Zvornik was that

10 Grbavci school. Unfortunately we couldn't find any map that was showing a

11 railroad, the railroad, but finally, we could get one, and then could

12 narrow down a suspect area.

13 On that basis we requested aerial imagery through the US embassy

14 and gained access to imagery that enabled us to pinpoint the execution

15 sites attached to these detention sites.

16 Q. Okay. Well, with that background, let's go through your -- the

17 images or the photos you've chosen. I think the first one will be 123.

18 And tell us about this.

19 A. So this is a helicopter view of the Grbavci school. At the right

20 of the picture, the road would lead to the main road going from Zvornik

21 towards Tuzla, going to the left of this picture goes to an area where

22 there is not much to be seen and at 800 metres to that direction, that is

23 north, two meadows that will be execution sites. On this picture, one can

24 see the main building with the black roof. The white area at its left is

25 the play ground, and the white structure with brownish roof is the

Page 1478

1 gymnasium of that school.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

3 Does this represent the totality of Orahovac or if not -- if yes,

4 at the background, there seems to be another conglomeration of buildings,

5 at least I wouldn't say whether that's a village or whatever. Do you know

6 what that is, Mr. Ruez?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, in fact, the area that on map is labelled

8 Orahovac is the area that you can see at the top of this picture, where

9 there is this grouping of houses.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So what we see in the bottom of the

11 picture is at the periphery of the village.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.


14 Q. Mr. Ruez, is it possible you're mistaken and at the Grbavci area?

15 A. Yes, you're correct. This is the Grbavci area and to the opposite

16 side, on the left where the graves are is the area of Orahovac, you're

17 right.

18 Q. Let's go to the next shot. Okay. We see, we are at 124 and we

19 are now back to the snow shots.

20 Is this the same trip in January 1996 that we saw from the Kravica

21 shots?

22 A. Yes, indeed, it is. I used there one because it is the one

23 closest to the late of events so hopefully minimum of changes occurred.

24 This one is of interest because it shows in the middle of the picture a

25 metallic fence and this fence is described by at least more than one of

Page 1479

1 the people who went through this school since they claimed having walked

2 along a fence before entering the gym and having to drop their belongings

3 on a pile just before entering. So there is in the middle is the fence

4 that was shown to the witnesses who recognised it as such.

5 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, 125. What is this?

6 A. This is the inside of the gymnasium with one door

7 labelled "entrance" and the other one marked "exit." Goes to a ward robe

8 and going through this ward robe is another door that exits on the play

9 ground in front of this gym.

10 Q. Now, this terms "entrance," why did you choose to call that door

11 the entrance is it? Is that based on something?

12 A. Based on the witnesses' accounts. This is the door through which

13 they entered the gym and the other door, the door through which they

14 exited the gym.

15 Q. Do you know, this picture, 125, was this the January 1996 shot or

16 was this later?

17 A. No. This was sometime later, probably April 1996.

18 Q. All right. Let's --

19 A. Or could even be later, sorry, could been returned several times.

20 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot, 126?

21 A. In fact, this one was really later. It was when we came back with

22 two much the survivors, so 1998.

23 Q. All right. And what's this, 126?

24 A. To check the testimonies of the people who said that the men who

25 were guarding them were from time to time shooting above their heads,

Page 1480

1 towards the windows or the ceiling, we checked the ceiling, and this is

2 one bullet hole or one hole in the ceiling, one round little hole in the

3 ceiling.

4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Only one hole that you were able to

6 see?

7 THE WITNESS: No. There were at least three of them. This one

8 is showing one. Another photograph is showing two more, I think.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 THE WITNESS: The following one.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So at most you saw three holes which you seem to

12 conclude are bullet holes?




16 Q. Let's go to the next shot, 127.

17 A. That's a view of another one.

18 Q. Okay. Let's go to 128. What's this?

19 A. This is a picture from the inside of the gym taken from another

20 angle. That was shown to the survivors and at least one of them

21 identified the shape of the windows.

22 Q. Okay. Let's go to 129.

23 A. This picture depicts some suspect traces on the windows of this

24 gym. I didn't count all of them. There were more than these four but

25 this was the most compelling, let's say.

Page 1481

1 Q. Okay. Let's go to 130.

2 A. This is -- there are two things on this picture. First, the

3 structure at the top left of the picture, with the door with bars, this is

4 the exit door of the wardrobe.

5 Q. What's the significance of that to the investigation?

6 A. According to the survivors, they were first taken out of the gym

7 going through that wardrobe where they were given a sip of water and were

8 blindfolded before getting on board of the TAM truck.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: This -- Mr. Ruez, first time you visited this

10 Grbavci school, had it been resumed being used as a school or not yet?

11 THE WITNESS: No, in January 1996, it was empty. During the year

12 1996, it was empty as well. I would say it was restarted becoming a

13 school during the year 1997.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And this photo goes back to when?

15 THE WITNESS: This is June 1996.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: 1996. So in June 97.

17 THE WITNESS: No, April 1996.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: April 1996, thank you.


20 Q. Okay. So just while we are on this barred door, we'll -- does

21 that area change during your subsequent visits to the area?

22 A. Later it will change. I will show a picture of it. This door

23 that is later been sealed.

24 Q. How?

25 A. With -- with blocks of -- I don't know the name in English.

Page 1482

1 Q. Okay. We'll get to that photo. And what else did you want to

2 mention in this photo besides that door?

3 A. So here is a pile of rubbish and we went through a search through

4 this pile of rubbish in order to check if there were any items of

5 interest.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. And what is this? The split

7 image?

8 A. This is the partial result of our search through this pile of

9 rubbish. It is more detailed in the video that is commented by Peter

10 Nicholson who gives numbers of shell casings and cloth but mainly what we

11 found among the rubbish was strips of cloth and shell casings.

12 Q. All right. Let's go to 132. What's this?

13 A. These are among pieces of cloth, we also find this cater pillar

14 track with cloth attached to it and with knots.

15 Q. All right. Let's go to 133. What's this?

16 A. After having gone through all the cloth we found there, we

17 selected a certain number of tissue in order to later send them to a lab

18 and compare these items with other cloth that would be found in other

19 places or in mass graves.

20 Q. And was that -- was that done and will it be the results of Mr.

21 Manning's report or others?

22 A. The entire crossing of the evidence will be indeed explained by

23 Dean Manning.

24 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one.

25 A. There is no date on this photograph but I think I can date it

Page 1483

1 1998. We returned with two survivors to the execution sites, and when we

2 passed by the school, I took this picture because the wall had been

3 sealed off. Not the wall. The exit of the wardrobe.

4 Q. All right. Now, I note on your outline that we have a four-minute

5 video of the Grbavci school. Is this another Peter Nicholson video?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Okay, if we could go through that and if you could do your

8 narration? I think we've seen this?

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE WITNESS: At the bottom you can see the railroad line and then

11 the school. This is entering the school, the fence is at the right.

12 That's the entrance. Towards the right it would go to the school and

13 towards the left it goes to the gym.

14 Entrance, exit.

15 Pieces of cloth, but these ones were not in the gym in January

16 1996. Some kids brought it in later.

17 The pile of rubbish.

18 So now he's giving a description of the items found, having

19 counted them.

20 He's currently counting the different calibres and the numbers.

21 These are a bunch of ammunition belts, boxes of ammunition, gas canisters.

22 Now counting the pieces of cloth.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that was 65 ter 1701, and it may be

24 good time for a break.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Perfect. I would take it we need 30 minutes because

Page 1484

1 of the redactions. So we'll have a 30-minute break, which means at five

2 to 1.00 we'll start again.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President.

7 Q. Mr. Ruez, we've finished up with the school and can you now

8 briefly describe what you learned from the survivors as to what happened

9 next so we can see that in the context of the investigation?

10 A. Yes. So taken out truck by truck, out of this wardrobe at the

11 Grbavci school, four survivors claim having made a short trip on board of

12 this truck. The assessment varied from five minutes to 20 minutes for

13 one of them. And taken to a nearby meadow where they faced execution.

14 Q. Okay, well, let's get your first exhibit in that regard at 135.

15 And we see the Grbavci school on the left side of the screen and can you

16 orient us?

17 A. First the left side of the screen, you can see just one little

18 part of the Grbavci school. There is a line running from the left, that

19 is the direction of the main road going from Zvornik to Tuzla. You can

20 so first see at the bottom of the picture the asphalt road, it's labelled

21 "road" going towards the right of the picture and at the top, the

22 straight line is the railroad that follows the same direction. So very

23 exactly 800 metres to the right of this Grbavci school, so going towards

24 direction north, are two meadows that we could identify precisely only

25 through the aerial imagery that was provided. One of them we named site

Page 1485

1 1. This is the site behind the railroad. And the other one we name it

2 site 2.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. But I think there is an additional confusion on this because, in

5 fact, here the labels are reversed.

6 Q. All right. We'll sort that out as we go and we'll remember that

7 135 needs to be reversed, 2 and 1; is that right?

8 A. Yes, because the site labelled site 2 is the one that was for the

9 exhumation process labelled LZ 1. That meant at that time Lazete, which

10 was a hamlet nearby, number 1. And the one labelled execution site 1 on

11 this photograph is labelled LZ 2 during the exhumation process.

12 Q. Okay. And just to be clear, how were you able to find these two

13 places that you labelled here as execution sites?

14 A. Only thanks to aerial imagery. Without that imagery, I don't

15 believe we would have fund these locations.

16 Q. All right. Let's go then to the next shot, 136, which is US

17 aerial imagery and it's one of these split shots, and July 5 on the left,

18 July 27 on the right. Can you just describe what that means to the

19 investigation?

20 A. Yes. So two main features on these photographs. The line at the

21 top left on the two pictures is the asphalt road, and the straight line

22 at the bottom right, to the top right, is the railroad line. One can see

23 on 5th July, a long dirt road that connects the asphalt road to an area

24 that is behind the railroad.

25 Q. Okay. Let's put the little hand there and have the hand go kind

Page 1486

1 of across the railroad?

2 A. This is a dirt road that goes through an underpass under the

3 railroad, and then reaches the area where soil has been obviously removed

4 between the 5th July and the 27 July.

5 Q. Okay. So if we go over to the 27 July photo, can you just tell

6 us where the -- well, I think we can see it but starting with the asphalt

7 road, show us the area of the disturbed soil?

8 A. Yes. There are also two areas of disturbance, one behind the

9 railroad, this one, and one just at the angle of the asphalt road and of

10 the dirt road, this one.

11 Q. Okay. Now, can't be seen from this image but can you tell us

12 from your knowledge of the ground how this little dirt road gets by there

13 railroad? I mean --

14 A. It goes through an underpass.

15 Q. Okay. Now, taking this imagery, what were you able to do?

16 A. We were able to find this location and search the ground for

17 evidence of possible mass grave site in this place.

18 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot which orients us a bit more.

19 And the purpose of this shot, which I believe was the same as the other

20 but it now has yellow markings?

21 A. Yes, correct. These yellow markings --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. This wouldn't tally with the

23 correction that you made to the previous one or -- because LZ 1 appears

24 to be the one which was site 1 in the first place. And LZ 2 corresponds

25 with site 2 as it appears on the prefer photo.

Page 1487


2 Q. Can you explain that, Mr. Ruez?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All I need is an explanation, that's all I want.

4 THE WITNESS: In fact, no, because on another picture, I turn it

5 through another angle because this angle here creates a confusion. In

6 fact, the one that is labelled LZ 1 on this photograph is on the previous

7 exhibit site 2. The problem is that it is seen from a different

8 direction.


10 THE WITNESS: On the next exhibit, I will have turned there

11 aerial photograph in another angle so that you can connect with this

12 picture here.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

14 Q. All right. Let's then go to 136. So we do see one that is

15 mislabelled again so it gets slightly confusing but this 137 is correctly

16 labelled; is that right?

17 A. Yes, this is right. The confusion with this numbering might be

18 explained at a later stage. It is in fact due to our initial assumption

19 that the first execution site was the first one. In fact it appeared

20 that the first one was the one we labelled number 2.

21 Q. Okay. Well, that's not something we need to deal with?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So let's go to the next, 138. And I think this is labelled

24 incorrectly; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. This is incorrect indeed. This is LZ 2 -- sorry, yes.

Page 1488

1 This is LZ 2.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It has to be because if it's next to the railway

3 tracks it cannot be LD 1.

4 THE WITNESS: This is LZ 2.


6 Q. Okay in relation to that asphalt road, this is the farthest away

7 from the asphalt road, is that right?

8 A. Yes. So this is photographed from the railroad track and it

9 shows the area that can be seen on the aerial imagery where the area of

10 disturbance is still very visible. It is pointed by the yellow arrow.

11 Q. So for the record we will correct the final version of this so

12 it's labelled properly. All right. Let's go to the next one, 139. And

13 what is this?

14 A. This is the same area of disturbance at LZ 2 with the first check

15 of the surface where a certain number of items were labelled. They are

16 all on a log. I will only show a few samples of it.

17 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next one, to begin to do that.

18 140. What are we --

19 A. So on this one, where the yellow marker number 25 is, there is a

20 bone that is a human bone, a femur.

21 Q. Let's go to the next one, 141.

22 A. Under the marker number 32 is a human jaw.

23 Q. Let's go to the next one, 142?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not draw conclusions that it is a human --

25 leave it to the experts, please.

Page 1489


2 Q. Mr. Ruez, how do you know -- why do you make that conclusion?

3 A. I make this conclusion because we were on the spot with Professor

4 bill Haglund who named us the bones that we were coming across.

5 Q. Let's go to 142. What do we see there?

6 A. Under the marker 17, a shell casing.

7 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 143.

8 A. On this one, number -- label 43 is a piece of cloth with a knot

9 and a piece of clothing coming out of the soil.

10 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 144.

11 A. So this photograph is just to show reference with the site where

12 some of these items were found, number 17 and number 43.

13 Q. Okay. Let's go to 145. What's this?

14 A. This is an area that was described by one of the survivors as

15 being a so-called rest area for the soldiers of the execution squad.

16 Q. Okay. And let me direct your attention to that white, just

17 behind that white truck. What is that little dark area with the railing

18 up by that white truck?

19 A. This opening on the hill that supports the railroad is the

20 so-called underpass that leads to the other side.

21 Q. Okay. Let's go to 146.

22 A. So on this grassy area, supposed to be the rest area, we found a

23 few carton boxes which are envelopes for 7.62 millimetre rounds.

24 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, 147. What's this of?

25 A. At the tree line on the top of this little hilly area, we found a

Page 1490

1 box of -- an aluminium box that on the next picture we will see is an

2 empty ammunition box.

3 Q. Let's go to 148?

4 A. That's a box that contained at one point, rounds of 7.62

5 millimetre bullets.

6 Q. And you just get that by reading that label which may be

7 difficult to read from this picture; is that correct?

8 A. This is correct.

9 Q. Let's go to 149. What is this?

10 A. So this is an ammunition box that was not found on the spot.

11 It's totally disconnected. But its aim is to show how an ammunition box

12 is made of. First a wooden shell, then the aluminium box and inside, a

13 certain number of little carton boxes with labels that contain the

14 rounds.

15 Q. Okay. Let's go to 150. What's this?

16 A. So this is a view of this site, LZ 2. The area of disturbance

17 that stretches towards the right of the picture. The so-called rest area

18 core donned with yellow tape, and the arrow marks the direction that one

19 has to take going through the underpass in order to reach the other site,

20 Lazete 1.

21 Q. For that, let's go to 151. Tell us about the perspective, where

22 we are now?

23 A. So again, this picture is taken from the railroad looking into

24 the direction of the asphalt road that leads to the school, if you turn

25 to the right, and the area with the dotted circle marks the location of

Page 1491

1 the second execution site and mass grave of this area.

2 Q. Okay. And just to summarise, let's go to the next shot. What is

3 this?

4 A. So this is an extract of the video filmed by helicopter that

5 shows at the bottom the arrow shows the direction when coming from the

6 Grbavci school. Then the first execution site that was used and that is

7 labelled LZ 2. And then just at the edge of the asphalt road, the second

8 site that is labelled LZ 1.

9 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next spot, 153. What is this?

10 A. So this is an area at approximately 200 metres away from the site

11 LZ 2. It will be pinpointed on another photograph seen from the air.

12 And it is an area where we found a pile of trash alongside of the dirt

13 road.

14 Q. Let's go to 154. And what is this?

15 A. This is a still picture that I took during the search we

16 conducted at this pile of trash.

17 Q. Okay. And we'll get a closer look at this on the video; is that

18 right?

19 A. Yes, absolutely.

20 Q. Okay. So then let's go to the next shot, which was 155, which we

21 have seen before but you have a marking. What's that, the dump site?

22 A. In addition to the previous exhibit, this one is marking the

23 location where we found this dump site alongside of a dirt road, a little

24 bit away from the execution and burial areas.

25 Q. Okay. And we now have a -- on your outline, a video that should

Page 1492

1 be about five minutes. And it's 65 ter 1718. And if you could provide

2 your brief narrative.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: So again the school, the school seen from the air,

5 going for the moment towards the opposite direction where the sites are.

6 The road going north towards the sites, the railroad at the left. Now

7 it's following the road towards the sites. And here I will be zooming

8 towards the two sites. Here are the two sites. Now it's filmed from the

9 ground and it's Peter Nicholson filming. And this is dated April 1996.

10 So this is site 2. Obvious disturbance on the ground.


12 Q. Was that disturbance done by the ICTY?

13 A. No, negative. The only disturbance we did that day was to do a

14 probe in the mud.

15 Q. Okay.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE WITNESS: So this is the area where we started a search in

18 this mud. Professor Bill Haglund is currently digging with the assistance

19 of two colleagues, Jean Pierre Capelle and Frederick Buckley.


21 Q. Which one is Haglund because everybody is digging?

22 A. The one with the hat and the yellow clothing is Professor Haglund

23 and the colour of the mud is greenish colour. This is what attracted him

24 to this specific area, since that colour is characteristic of mud that

25 has been in contact with rottening bodies.

Page 1493

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: This is a shell casing. Without the sound, I

3 couldn't tell, but he's giving explanations about human bone at this

4 moment, or flesh or clothing.

5 This is now the area of the dump site. So this is the result of

6 the search inside this dump site. A certain number of socks that we are

7 counting at this moment. Pieces of clothing. Hats, some hand-made, some

8 fabric. And quite a large number of pieces of cloth, around 100, some

9 having knots.

10 Live ammunition. Spare ammunition.

11 Documents, photographs.


13 Q. Okay. I notice from your outline that that is the end of the

14 Orahovac grave sections for now but at the end of your outline you plan

15 to go back to some of these execution sites and speak about issues

16 related to what's happened to them after July 1995; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. So just to orient us there.

19 All right. Now, the next site you've identified in this section

20 we have the Petkovci School and the Petkovci dam, but before we get to

21 those, can you tell me, the Petkovci School and the Petkovci dam which

22 one of these locations did the investigation identify first?

23 A. The first location identified was the dam because initially, we

24 even thought that the people who had been executed at the dam were also

25 coming from the Grbavci school. So it took a bit longer to identify the

Page 1494

1 Petkovci School.

2 Q. Okay. We'll -- I'll ask you about how you found the dam but

3 since we start with the school, can you tell us how, after finding the

4 dam, did you find the school?

5 A. Finding the school was then easy because it was not far away from

6 the dam, and by asking the locals, we could identify that school that was

7 matching the precise descriptions given then by the two survivors of this

8 spot.

9 Q. Okay. And how, once you found this school, based on what the

10 local folks had told you, how did you match that up, if you did, to the

11 survivors?

12 A. By taking photographs of the location and showing the pictures to

13 the survivors.

14 Q. Okay. Well, then, let's start with a -- the Petkovci School and

15 let's go to the next photograph, 157. Tell us what this is?

16 A. So this is a helicopter view of the school and the area around

17 the school. The asphalt road at the bottom of the picture is going to

18 the right towards the dam. That is the waste of the aluminium factory at

19 Karakaj and just after Karakaj is Zvornik so -- the dam and the general

20 direction of Zvornik [check that].

21 Q. All right, so let's --

22 A. One can see it's on top of a slope that has some relevance then

23 with what the witnesses will say.

24 Q. And about, if you remember, about how far is this school from the

25 dam site?

Page 1495

1 A. By road, it is approximately three kilometres, three, four

2 kilometres by road.

3 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to the next shot, 158. What's this?

4 A. This is a picture of the front of the school, when photographed

5 from a meadow that is in front of it.

6 Q. And was there a particular purpose in getting this angle of the

7 school?

8 A. Yes. One survivor said that there were some guards on this

9 meadow who were shooting at the prisoners where someone was standing to

10 get some fresh air.

11 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot, 159. What is this

12 depicting?

13 A. This is again the same school but seen from the back, where there

14 is a parking place or a play ground and then specific architecture that

15 leads one to the entrance of the school by going down a series of stairs.

16 Q. What's the yellow arrow for?

17 A. The yellow arrow is marking the school, pointing to the school.

18 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, 160. What's this?

19 A. This is the view one has when he arrives on this parking lot and

20 goes down the stairs towards the entrance of the school.

21 Q. And did you receive any descriptions from any of the survivors

22 that were consistent with this?

23 A. Yes. Both descriptions were consistent with this.

24 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. What's this?

25 A. This is a photograph of the inside, showing that it is a school

Page 1496

1 with two floors.

2 Q. What's the significance of two floors?

3 A. It matches the description given by at least one I remember very

4 well, of one of these two survivors.

5 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot.

6 A. This is a staircase that goes from the ground floor towards the

7 first floor.

8 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. What's this?

9 A. This is the corridor at the top floor. When we brought the

10 witness back to the spot, he pointed at the last door at this corridor,

11 turning right, as being the classroom where he was hold.

12 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, 164. What is this?

13 A. This is the inside of the school that the witness pointed to us.

14 He had told previously about a stove that one can see here. The entire

15 classroom was renovated. Nevertheless, there was still this blackboard

16 that is in fact a green board that was obviously not renovated.

17 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, 165. What are these little

18 circles depicting?

19 A. These circles are depicting holes, bullet holes, in this

20 blackboard.

21 Q. Let's go to the next shot, a close-up, 166.

22 A. This is a close shot of a bullet hole on this blackboard.

23 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot, 167.

24 A. Now it is the exit of the prisoner who had been held in this

25 classroom, so going first towards this corridor.

Page 1497

1 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot.

2 A. And then getting down the stairs, that have a very specific shape.

3 Q. Okay. So that's the end of the school at Petkovci.

4 Now we go to the dam. Let's go to the next map graphic. Similar

5 to that -- we've seen similar to that. So let's go to 170. Can you tell

6 us what this is?

7 A. So this is the what we call the plateau of the dam, which is the

8 execution and burial site of the prisoners who were taken from Petkovci

9 School to this area.

10 Q. Okay. Can you orient us? You say it's a dam. I don't see any

11 water. Where -- describe how the dam works, if you could. Just in

12 relation to this picture.

13 A. The dirt road that can be seen at the right, middle right of the

14 picture, is the dirt road that leads towards the asphalt road, and then

15 either direction of the school, either direction towards Karakaj. This is

16 the bottom of the dam and one can see the wall of the dam at the left

17 corner of the picture, and it's going uphill like this. It is not a lake.

18 It is the waste, the water waste, of the aluminum factory of Karakaj. So

19 it's a red water dam.

20 Q. Okay. Let's go to 171. These are September dates. These are --

21 that's out of order. So let's skip that.

22 A. Never mind, because it will be the same between 5th and 27, more

23 or less. This is only to indicate the area where disturbance can be seen,

24 and that area of disturbance matches a site on this plateau that one can

25 see from the ground was indeed obviously disturbed. So this shows in fact

Page 1498

1 what led us to search a specific area of this plateau.

2 Q. Okay. Where would the water be in relation to these split images?

3 A. At the bottom of the picture, in fact, you can see the dirt road

4 that then leads to the plateau, and this is the plateau. The wall would

5 be on the right-hand of these two photographs.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, 172. What is this?

7 A. So here taking first totally at the left is the dirt road that is

8 coming from the direction of the asphalt road. Then approaching the site,

9 you have this -- at the left of the picture, this area where the soil

10 looks a bit yellow, and this is the area of the disturbance. We made a

11 collection of shell casings and pieces of human skull on this entire

12 surface. That area will be shown a bit later, but the small picture at

13 the top is a picture taken of one of the two survivors on that spot,

14 precisely on that spot, and the blue arrow points the position where this

15 person told me he had been shot at when he was taken to the plateau.

16 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one. What's the significance --

17 first of all, what is this?

18 A. So this is a picture showing the side of the plateau, and the goal

19 of it is to show some concrete ditch that is running alongside this

20 plateau, and the two survivors claim having crawlen out of the site,

21 reached concrete ditch and then they crawled towards a forest in front.

22 We could see the forest on the previous picture, forest hill.

23 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. Can you describe this now?

24 A. M'hm. So on this view, that is taken from north towards south,

25 sorry, from, yes, north to south, one can see the red water of the dam.

Page 1499

1 Then in between the red water and the black line is, in fact, the wall of

2 the dam. And the white area more at the top of this dam is the plateau.

3 Q. And what -- we see blue arrows. What do the blue arrows depict?

4 A. The first blue arrow depicts the trip that the two survivors made

5 to crawl towards the hill covered by a forest, that is just in front, and

6 the second dotted line that goes from the right to the left indicates the

7 direction they took on 15 July when it took them nearly a day to crawl

8 uphill in that direction, time during which they talk about a certain

9 number of events.

10 Q. Okay. Let's go on to the next spot. Is this -- we are at 175,

11 sorry, we are still at the dam. Can you indicate what this means?

12 A. These arrows show the same thing, seen from a different angle.

13 This is the direction the two men took to escape from the area.

14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next spot. And again, what's this?

15 A. So this picture shows that at the left of the dam is a continuity

16 of the gravel road, the dirt road, that goes uphill and then would be lost

17 of sight from someone who would be downhill, and reaches a location we

18 named the peninsula that enters a bit in the red waters of the lake.

19 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next shot. Who is the person in

20 this shot, 177?

21 A. The person at the left is Professor Bill Haglund.

22 Q. And did he report to you what these things were that he's

23 photographing?

24 A. Yes, indeed. This was the first approach of the site in

25 April 1996 and among the numerous pieces of bones we could find on the

Page 1500

1 surface, Professor Haglund collected some of them and on the video

2 describes what part of the human skeleton these are part of.

3 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, 178. What do we have here in

4 the circle?

5 A. This was during a mission done in summer 1997, in order to prepare

6 a future exhumation of the site. We probed one area of the suspect mass

7 grave site that is at the area of disturbance on the photograph, aerial

8 photograph, and here, approximately ten centimetres under the ground we

9 found a piece of cloth with a knot.

10 Q. Let's go to the next shot.

11 A. This is the piece of cloth put on a hard surface to have a better

12 picture of it.

13 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, 180. What is this?

14 A. That same day, continuing to dig through these rocks, we found at

15 60 centimetres under the soil what is a piece of human skull, marked with

16 the yellow arrow at the moment we found it.

17 Q. Let's go to the next shot, 181. What's that?

18 A. So this is a split image of the piece of skull that we saw on the

19 previous picture.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. This was identified as a human skull by pathologist Jose Baraybar.

22 Q. We have three more photos, we should be able to get to them pretty

23 quickly. 182, what is this?

24 A. Among large collection of skull fragments scattered on top of the

25 surface of the plateau of the dam, I requested Jose Baraybar to give us a

Page 1501

1 little sampling of what type of bones these were. So he -- on this

2 photograph it shows some samples of various skull fragments.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. Let's go to the next shot. And what's

4 this?

5 A. As the result also of this first possibility we had to check in

6 detail the surface of the plateau of the dam, we collected a number of

7 shell casings that would have to be added to the number provided in the

8 report made by Professor Richard Wright since during this collection we

9 took from the surface of the dam 1031 shell casings which are in the bags

10 that one can see on this picture.

11 Q. In what year was this?

12 A. This was during the summer of 1996. It was either -- I can hardly

13 say.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. Could be -- could be June. We made several during that summer and

16 I might mix a few of them.

17 Q. Okay. Let's go to the last shot for today. What is this yellow

18 perimeter depict?

19 A. So this is a marking of the -- of the area where we collected most

20 of the casings and most the skull fragments. They were scattered all over

21 this area.

22 Q. All right. Thank you.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's a good time to break.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. McCloskey. I thank you, Mr. Ruez.

25 We will reconvene tomorrow in the afternoon, 2.15, in this same courtroom.

Page 1502

1 Thank you.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of

4 September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.