1 Tuesday, 12 September 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, if you could kindly call the case,
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam. And good afternoon to
11 you. I notice that I see no complaints from the accused with regard to
12 interpretation. Defence benches are full house from what I can see. And
13 Prosecution, I notice an addition. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I'd like to introduce you to
15 a new member of the ICTY that just arrived here in the last day or two,
16 it's a lawyer Kweku Vander Puye.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Did he choose the case or was it imposed on him?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he just got assigned but luck of the draw.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and welcome Mr. Vander Puye.
20 MR. VANDER PUYE: Thank you and good afternoon.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand there are no preliminaries. So we can
22 proceed straight away with Mr. Ruez's testimony. Good afternoon, Mr.
23 Ruez and welcome back.
24 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
25 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
4 Q. Mr. Ruez, we left off having just discussed the Petkovci Dam area
5 and I just want to make sure that we briefly -- when you were speaking of
6 the disturbed earth at Orahovac, the two sites called Lazete, can you
7 confirm that later on those were exhumed by OTP teams and found to be
9 A. Yes, absolutely. One was exhumed during the summer of 1996, that
10 is LZ2 and the other one was exhumed, I believe, in -- during the summer
11 1998 and both were indeed disturbed primary graves.
12 Q. And that will be the subject of Mr. Dean Manning and the expert
13 forensics. Same question with the Petkovci plateau area that you showed
14 the photos of probing in. Was that later exhumed and confirmed to be a
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. All right. Well, then, let's go to your next shot which is 185, I
18 believe. Again another map graphic with the area of Rocevic circled. And
19 can you just briefly tell us the significance of Rocevic?
20 A. Again, among the sites located in what we call the area north, is
21 one school of interest, that is located at Rocevic.
22 Q. And why was this school of interest?
23 A. Because we learned that later on, in fact, even after my departure
24 from the Tribunal that this place had indeed been used as a detention
25 centre for prisoners.
1 Q. Okay. We will just leave it at that then. And you've got a
2 couple of photos of that so let's just go to the first one, 186. And that
3 actually looks a lot like the Petkovci School. Can you tell us what this
5 A. I don't have a school on my screen but I have it on my book, if I
6 could have the screen? Yes, now I have it. I have it.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, usher.
8 THE WITNESS: So this is the Rocevic school seen from the road but
9 with a zooming because it's on top of a hill, very visible from the road
10 going from Zvornik towards Janja.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Okay. And let's go to 187.
13 A. This is the same school but seen from the back showing that indeed
14 it is a large building that looks indeed similar to the one we call the
15 Grbavci school, a two storage building with a gym and a wardrobe.
16 Q. All right. But you yourself haven't done any further detailed
17 investigation of this school, have you?
18 A. No. We didn't because at that time, the use of that school was
19 only, what I call, an assumption, but I took the pictures just in case for
20 later on.
21 Q. Okay. Then let's go to the next shot, 188, moving away from the
22 school at Rocevic and now -- well, actually, I guess you've got Rocevic
23 marked in yellow and there is a red kind of, I don't know what you call
24 that, a star. What is this?
25 A. The yellow circle points the location of the school, and the red
1 star indicates the location of an execution and mass grave site in the
3 Q. All right. And did that get a name from the investigation that
4 mass execution site?
5 A. Yes, indeed. The name is KZ, that stands for Kozluk.
6 Q. All right. Let's go to 189 in that case. And can you -- first of
7 all, can you just tell us again very briefly how you came to identify this
8 site that you call Kozluk?
9 A. I will try to summarise the way we gained access to first the
10 information, then to the site. The first information we got was from
11 someone who told us knowing a person who was in a refugee camp in Germany.
12 That person being in contact through telephone with former neighbours
13 living in the vicinity of Kozluk. These sources in Germany explained in
14 detail their knowledge about an execution that took place in a pit area
15 nearby Kozluk, naming a specific pit that is a Ferida pit, that is an area
16 of -- kind of a place where gravel is collected so it creates pits. And
17 following this information, we requested aerial imagery for this place and
18 that imagery indicated a disturbance that occurred between 5th July and 17
19 July. But we approached that site only in 1998.
20 Q. Okay. Well, let's just -- can you explain this 189, how it
21 relates to what you've described?
22 A. So this -- on this photograph, it's extracted from the helicopter
23 video dated 1998. The school would be in our back. This view is facing
24 the site marked at the left, at the edge of the River Drina. The opposite
25 bank of the river is the territory of Serbia. And at the right, top
1 right, one can see Kozluk town so that gives an indication of the distance
2 between Kozluk town and this site that can be reached by driving along a
3 gravel road.
4 Q. And these two black bars on your illustration?
5 A. These bars are due to the fact that to create this picture, I had
6 to extract three stills out of the initial video.
7 Q. Okay. Let's go to 190. What's this?
8 A. This is an advertising on a wall along a factory that is located
9 at the exit of Kozluk, driving along this gravel road that leads to the
10 site, and this is the former embottlement factory of a company called
11 Vitinka and based in Kozluk. This factory at that time was used by -- as
12 barracks by the unit nicknamed the Drina Wolves.
13 Q. All right. Let's go to the next picture, 191.
14 A. This is the entrance gate one has to drive by when going from
15 Kozluk, the asphalt road, towards the execution and burial site.
16 Q. And what is this picture of in 191?
17 A. This is the picture of the front gate and the guard house leading
18 to the unit.
19 Q. Do you know the date that this unit is here that this photograph
20 is taken?
21 A. The date of the photograph should be April 1998. I don't know
22 since what date this unit was billeting in that location.
23 Q. Okay. Well, then let's go to 192. We again have a split aerial
24 image from the United States. You had mentioned previously that you
25 requested imagery. Is this what you got?
1 A. Yes, indeed. This is the result of our request. On the split
2 image at the left, one can see a greyish area that is the Drina River, and
3 then one can observe between the left picture and the right picture severe
4 disturbance of the soil that occurred between these two dates.
5 Q. Okay. And when, if you recall, did you actually go to this area?
6 A. Yes. We were conducting an exhumation of the site named Cancari
7 3, when during my presence was coming out of the site first some broken
8 glass and one hour later, stacks of labels of the Vitinka factory based in
10 Q. Okay, just perhaps to clarify, you mentioned Cancari 3. Is that a
11 road not far from the south of Zvornik where you were doing exhumations on
12 secondary sites?
13 A. Yes, this is correct. This will come later in my testimony but
14 indeed it was during an exhumation of one of these secondary sites.
15 Q. All right. And then how is it that you happened to go to the
16 Kozluk area?
17 A. So finding this glass and labels the assessment was that it was
18 coming from an area of trash disposal and since the only area we had not
19 visited yet was this Kozluk site, the assumption was that trash areas in
20 this place are often nearby rivers so that could be a lead to bring us to
21 quickly visit this site. That is what we did.
22 Q. Okay. And then let's go to ...
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Excuse me, Your Honour, I don't mind if he
24 continues, but I still don't think we got an answer to the question on
25 line 6 or page 6, line 6, whether, if you recall, did you actually go to
1 this area?
2 THE WITNESS: I think I answered.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. If you could answer that question, please,
4 Mr. Ruez?
5 THE WITNESS: I think I did. April 1998 at the best of my
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Doesn't show up in -- I don't see it in the
8 transcript any way.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you for.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: April 1998? I thank you, Mr. Ostojic. I thank you,
11 Mr. Ruez. And Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
13 Q. So you went to the site or you went to the area of Kozluk in April
14 1998 and what did you -- did you find if anything?
15 A. The following pictures will give indications as well as the video.
16 Q. All right. Then let's go to that, 193, I believe. First of all,
17 tell us where this -- I mean, where this is in relation to what the
18 locations you've been talking about?
19 A. So this is a precisely on the area of disturbed soil that was
20 visible on the photograph dated 17 July 1995, the aerial imagery. This
21 area of soil shows that there is a lot of broken glass visible on this
22 picture, as well as a shoe, inside the shoe is a sock and a bone.
23 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, then. And what is this?
24 A. This photograph shows an area that is very close vicinity of the
25 previous photograph where the shoe can still be seen and just digging
1 slightly in this area, we could find more broken glass, as well as shell
3 Q. All right. Well, let's go to the next shot for that, 195.
4 A. This picture simply shows one -- two pieces of broken glass and
5 next to the yellow sticker a shell casing.
6 Q. Okay. Let's go to 196.
7 A. This is another mound of soil mixed with broken glass and with it
8 what is left of a piece of clothing and human bones.
9 Q. All right. And just -- you mentioned earlier finding some
10 material at Cancari 3. Just visually, were you able to relate anything
11 with Cancari 3 and these things we've been watching from Kozluk?
12 A. Yes, because once we arrived just driving along the road, just
13 before hitting the Drina Wolves barracks, we could see the symbol of the
14 Vitinka factory that was the same than one -- the ones we found on the
15 labels inside the secondary grave of Cancari 3, as well as stacks of
16 labels that we found once we arrived on the Kozluk site that were similar
17 to the labels found at the secondary site.
18 Q. All right. And did you take a video of the Kozluk site at some
20 A. Yes, during this first mission I took a video that I summarised
21 and made shorter for the sake of this presentation.
22 Q. All right. And that is about 6.42 minutes and it's 65 ter 1759,
23 if we could go to that, and Mr. Ruez will have the sound off again and you
24 can just narrate it briefly as you have been doing.
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE WITNESS: So we can see the date is June not April as I said
2 previously, the 5th of June 1998. So here we are in the area of
3 disturbance. Here is one stack of green broken glass. The piece of
4 clothing with the human bone inside. I must add that we were in the
5 presence of Professor Bill Haglund, not Bill Haglund, sorry, Professor
6 Richard Wright. He's the one who told us what the bones were. This is
7 again an area of disturbed soil with the shoe, the sock and the bone in
8 it. One more shoe. Stacks of broken glass dumped in the area. The
9 search for shell casings with a metal detector along the dirt road.
10 Several casings were found embedded in the soil in that location along the
11 road, the path.
12 Pieces of clothing.
13 Another shoe with a bone sticking out of it.
14 We started a quick dig in that place but we immediately stopped
15 because, in fact, we were starting an exhumation. The bodies were very
16 shallow under the surface.
17 This is the general area of the execution site and where the
18 bodies were later recovered.
19 That's a grave stone indicating that this area was a former Muslim
21 This is a stack of dirt among which we found labels, the same
22 labels that were found at Cancari 3 grave site. We think at Kozluk.
23 This is a view during our exit of the Vitinka factory, Drina
24 Wolves barracks.
25 This is a short shot of a July 1999, the exhumation process had
1 just started. This is the location where we previously made our first
2 findings, and this is the global area of the mass grave.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One question, or three in one, actually, very
4 quickly to the witness before you proceed, Mr. McCloskey. Earlier on,
5 while we were looking at this, we saw a tombstone or a gravestone as it is
6 in the transcript, and that you said that's a gravestone indicating that
7 this area was a former Muslim cemetery.
8 Question one is: Did you notice other tombstones, number 1? Did
9 you have an indication from anyone that that site was at some previous
10 time a Muslim cemetery? And number 3, I'm putting these questions because
11 anyone who is familiar with the area knows that you would find just one or
12 two tombstones in a field near the residence of a family, they would bury
13 their own next to their residence, and you find it along the roadside and
14 the countryside. So saying that that is a cemetery, I mean, would be a
15 misdescription of the truth. At the other hand, if there was a cemetery
16 and we are talking of cemetery having been obliterated, in other words,
17 desecrated completely and substituted by what you describe as a mass grave
18 here, mass grave, it's another. So this is why I'm asking the question.
19 THE WITNESS: I agree with your option. It's totally possible
20 that there was only one grave at one point at that place. This was not
21 the topic of the investigation. We did not look for additional
22 tombstones, nor additional information on this aspect.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: But they were not visible either?
24 THE WITNESS: No. I don't think so, not on -- we didn't search
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And assuming there was just one tombstone, you
2 wouldn't agree that that would qualify as a cemetery, would it?
3 THE WITNESS: No I wouldn't, nor would I say that the plateau of
4 the dam was a religious symbol although there was a destroyed mosque at
5 the bottom of the plateau of this dam.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. Mr. Ruez, let's go to the next area, as we go further north.
9 You've marked on your outline the -- let's go to 197 -- that is another
10 map graphic where you have a yellow mark. It's a little unclear where
11 that yellow mark is precisely. What do you mean to show by that?
12 A. Which one?
13 Q. It's 197. It should be on your screen.
14 A. So this yellow marking indeed symbolises again a detention site
15 that is the school of Luke, Kula, sorry.
16 Q. Okay. And what village is the Kula school near?
17 A. So this is the area of Pilica.
18 Q. Okay. Let's go to 198. And tell us about this.
19 A. So this is an aerial -- I mean helicopter picture of the Pilica
20 school called Kula. So this shows that it is a larger structure, two
21 storey house with a larger gym at the left of the structure, and this is a
22 location where two survivors from the Branjevo farm claimed having being
23 detained into. These witnesses are number 53 and number 42.
24 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. 199. And what is this of?
25 A. This is a photograph showing the school when arriving by the
1 gravel road coming from Pilica. Pilica being on the highway between
2 Zvornik and Janja.
3 Q. And is there anything of significance at this particular angle or
4 shot that you want to discuss now or?
5 A. Not at this moment. It will come later but this is what the
6 direction a bus would take to arrive and deposit people at that school.
7 Q. Okay. Then let's go to the next shot, number 200. And what is
9 A. This shows the way the people would take to enter the main
10 entrance of the school.
11 Q. So where would the main entrance be?
12 A. Just when walking along this wall, then turning right.
13 Q. Okay. So you would past the wall and turn right?
14 A. Past the wall indeed, yes.
15 Q. Let's go to the next shot, 201?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before we do so. Mr. Bourgon.
17 MR. BOURGON: Could the witness confirm the information he just
18 provided in terms of entry point that this comes from those two witnesses
19 that he just mentioned or from some other sources.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ruez, you can answer that question?
21 THE WITNESS: First of all, it is, let's say, the normal way of
22 access to this school but the photographs were shown to the witnesses and
23 they confirmed this is the way they entered the school.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. Okay. And so I think we are at 201 now. What is this?
1 A. This is a photograph showing indeed the entrance.
2 Q. Okay. Then let's go to 202. And what is this?
3 A. One of the witnesses says that meanwhile he was locked inside the
4 gym, he was tasked to go and fetch some water outside of the school, so we
5 draw a sketch to show where this location was and indeed we found a water
6 source that on this photograph is pointed to with a yellow arrow.
7 Q. Okay. Can you -- if you recall, can you tell us by number which
8 witness gave you that information?
9 A. If the young one is 53, then it is 53, because there is one
10 so-called young one and one so-called old one. This one is the young one,
11 53, I think.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 1516 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We are in open session. And thank you
24 Judge Kwon for pointing that out.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. And what is this, Mr. Ruez?
2 A. This is the water source to which the witness says he went to
3 fetch some water to bring back to the prisoners in the gym.
4 Q. Okay. Let's go to 204. What is this?
5 A. In his initial interview, the witness said, having seen on his way
6 returning from the water source, towards the gym, seeing a bus of
7 prisoners who had just arrived and who were shot at the moment they
8 arrived. He initially said it was on a meadow. Finally calling to his
9 explanations what he was naming a meadow would probably have been this
10 area of the school and the arrow points from the exit way of this water
11 source towards this direction, to indicate what his angle of vision was
12 when coming back from the water source.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's get this clear. So the location where
14 supposedly these new arrivals were shot was established by you.
15 THE WITNESS: This is coming in the following photographs. This
16 one is only to show that from the water source, coming back from the water
17 source, the witness indeed had an angle of vision that enabled him to see
18 what we can see on the picture.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: But what you can see in the picture, would that
20 qualify as a meadow?
21 THE WITNESS: Initially, I would not have thought so, but due to
22 the fact that in his initial interview this was not something of main
23 importance, and due to the risk of distortion of information during
24 translation, during his first interview, there was no additional
25 information requested from him about this so-called meadow.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But to conclude on this, basically, the
2 place where the arrow points to is not the place that was indicated
3 specifically by him, but a place you concluded is the place that he would
4 be referring to?
5 THE WITNESS: This is correct. The arrow points to the direction
6 of the one who is taking this photograph and shows at the top of this
7 arrow, going up to the picture, the site -- I mean, the exit area from the
8 so-called water source.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. Can you clarify, which number this person is, the one that said
13 A. Number 53.
14 Q. All right. Okay. Now, let's go to the next shot, 205. What is
16 A. This is a suspect trace on a window on this facade.
17 Q. What's the significance of this to what you've been telling us, if
19 A. We were looking on this facade for traces of bullet impacts or
20 shooting traces.
21 Q. Why?
22 A. Due to the fact that in the vicinity of the area pointed out by
23 the witness, we also found a certain number of shell casings.
24 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot, then, 206.
25 A. This is the east part of this front wall, where bullet impacts can
1 be seen on the facade.
2 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, 207. We have a split image. Is
3 this the same area of the building you've been talking about in the
4 previous couple of photographs?
5 A. Yes, it is. It is still the front facade and this is the angle
6 going towards the entrance of the school, and in this area, though it has
7 been roughly covered with a bit of concrete, there are also traces on this
9 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 208. Now, we have two shots
10 in this. Could you explain them whichever order you think is appropriate?
11 A. On the picture at the top is an area circled in red. This is the
12 area where we found shell casings embedded in the soil, using a metal
13 detector. Same situation for the picture at the bottom. The area boxed
14 in red at the left is an area where we also found several shell casings
15 embedded in the soil.
16 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one. We are now on to another site.
17 And what site is this?
18 A. This map shows in the yellow circle the location of the Pilica
19 school, the Kula school, and again the red star indicates execution site
20 and burial site of Branjevo military farm.
21 Q. All right. And how were you led to this site at the Branjevo
23 A. By two ways. The first one was the interviews with the two
24 surviving witnesses, and the information collected from various sources in
25 order to try to pinpoint a large farm in that area. And the second main
1 source was the information provided by Drazen Erdemovic, once he arrived
2 in The Hague.
3 Q. All right. I don't think we'll get into a lot of detail on that.
4 He's on the witness list and -- what about help from US imagery?
5 A. Definitely. Following all these various sources of information,
6 imagery was provided that showed the evolution of the site on a quite long
7 period of time, at the time of the events and later on, at the time of its
9 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, I believe it's 210. And another
10 aerial image dated 5 July. What is this?
11 A. So on this picture, one first can see the farm in the middle. The
12 path going towards the top of the picture is the entrance of this farm.
13 The road at the top is not a road. It's a dirt road that leads to the
14 right to the asphalt road going from Zvornik to Janja and to the left, to
15 that same road going from Zvornik to Janja, at the intersection leading to
16 Pilica village. So on this photo one can see the structure of this
17 agricultural complex composed of four buildings. The building of interest
18 for this case is the one completely at the left of the picture, this one.
19 That is a garage. And we know from Drazen Erdemovic that behind this
20 garage was the rest area for the execution squad.
21 Q. All right. Then let's go on to the -- well, before I forget, this
22 picture right now, are you aware of what is on this area depicted by this
23 picture today?
24 A. Yes. I went back last year and now it's quite large village.
25 There is nothing left to be seen there. I could only find the foundations
1 of the structure of the garage and of the admin building that is next to
2 the garage but now there are houses all around this place.
3 Q. When you say village, would it be a fair description to call it a
4 housing development?
5 A. A housing development would be the appropriate way to call it,
7 Q. All right. Then let's go to your next shot, 211. And how does
8 this relate to the previous shot?
9 A. So this is a ground view seen from the opposite direction than of
10 the one, the aerial picture was shot. This is the access to the Branjevo
11 farm. This is along this path that the buses full of prisoners were
12 stopped. At the right, one can see a very large field that is in fact
13 where the helicopter is stationed, just behind this helicopter is the
14 field. At the left of the helicopter is a tree and the garage. These are
15 the important features the witnesses relate to.
16 Q. All right. And do you remember the date of this photo, with this
17 helicopter in it?
18 A. I think this is in March 1996, since it was a preparation of a
19 visit on site of Madam Madeleine Albright.
20 Q. All right. Let's go to 212. Can you orient us again?
21 A. This is the same view than the previous picture but seen from
22 helicopter. On this one you can perfectly see at the front the gravel
23 road going right towards Pilica and left towards the asphalt road,
24 Zvornik-Janja. In the middle, the access path to the farm, where the
25 vehicles are parked is the area where the buses made their U-turn. The
1 prisoners were walked from the area where the vehicles are parked in the
2 middle towards the garage. They walked alongside the garage and along
3 this tree and then were lined up group after group and the execution site
4 expanded towards the right of this picture on the field, according to
5 witness Drazen Erdemovic and the two survivors.
6 Q. Let's go to the next shot. What is this?
7 A. This is a view of the garage and the tree and this is the view one
8 would have when walking in that direction towards the execution field.
9 Q. All right. I have not asked you before but you don't happen to
10 know what kind of tree that is? Do you recall what kind of tree that is?
11 A. I'm not an expert at all in trees, but my recollection is that one
12 witness said there was an apple tree. I don't know if it is really an
13 apple tree. I didn't make sure of that.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I think it is, but I'm not an expert.
16 Q. Can't see any apples at the moment.
17 A. No.
18 Q. So we'll go on to the next shot, 214. What is this?
19 A. Just continuing along this garage, continuing towards the field,
20 this is the left edge of the execution area, and this was our first
21 approach on the site that was in March 1996.
22 Q. Okay. And let's go to the next shot.
23 A. Among the items that we could find on the spot, along this
24 vegetation line, we found as examples here, one shoe.
25 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, then.
1 A. Some bones.
2 Q. The next one, 217?
3 A. One skull.
4 Q. And 218, another US image dated 17 July. What is --
5 A. 17 July, as we know from the documentation captured at the Zvornik
6 Brigade, was the date of the burial of the bodies at the Branjevo farm.
7 This picture we received from state department has no markings on it, but
8 we have one in records that show that the area in between these two dotted
9 lines but more at the right of these dotted lines is marked bodies. The
10 dotted lines are the ones I added and that I will show on another
11 photograph. It is the area on which we recovered shell casings and that
12 match the area where there is both bodies that can be seen on the ground
13 as well as traces of some heavy equipment that might have collected these
15 Q. All right. Let's go to that, then, to 219. Now, this is -- also
16 dated 17 July. Appears to be the same, the identical photograph but there
17 are coloured markings on it. Who did those coloured markings?
18 A. So I did these coloured markings. They are different type of
19 colours, in fact. The light yellow is what I added to show the access to
20 the farm and the garage. The red arrow I added to show the access to the
21 farm, though the orange markings are exactly the same ones that I
22 reproduced on this photo, the same ones that were on the original
23 photograph received by state department but I did not have in my
24 possession. Meanwhile, I was doing this presentation, the original
25 photograph, that original photograph was shown during the trial of General
1 Krstic, so it is in records. I just duplicated in orange the markings
2 that were on the original photograph.
3 Q. All right. Let's go to 220, then.
4 And just for Your Honours, I was able to find that photograph
5 because -- and provide it to the Defence before the court today because I
6 realised it was not something that had been previously provided to them,
7 the one that Mr. Ruez just referred to.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you for that information. I see no
9 comments from the Defence. Yes, please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Thank you.
11 Q. So let's now go to 220. We have a split image, the one on the
12 left is dated 21 September. The one on the right is dated 5 July.
13 A. So this -- these two pictures show an area of high interest in
14 that location, since it pinpoints the precise location of the mass grave
15 that was created there after the body collection process was over.
16 Picture on the right shows the area date of 5 July and at the left, an
17 obvious area of disturbance dated 21st September, 1995.
18 Q. Were you and a forensic archaeology team able to confirm the site
19 of a grave where it's marked "burial area"?
20 A. Yes. We first checked that place and found at an initial stage
21 only surface remains, but then this site was fully exhumed among the
22 priorities of the summer 1996.
23 Q. Remember just to guide us, we need to just answer the question.
24 You'll always be able to explain but let's get into good practice for what
25 will be cross-examination soon.
1 All right. 221, Mr. Ruez. What's this?
2 A. This is what I just named surface remains. This is a human
3 skeleton wrapped in clothing that was left at the edge of the area pointed
4 on the photograph as being the mass grave area.
5 Q. All right. And I believe you've -- you have a video, like you had
6 before, that you've edited down a bit to about ten minutes 50 seconds, and
7 if -- that's 65 ter 1796, if we can play that according to the usual
8 procedures, if you could give us your brief narrative.
9 [Videotape played]
10 THE WITNESS: So this is first a view, helicopter view, 1998, of
11 the school, Kula school. And then the road that goes towards both Pilica
12 and the Branjevo farm. So at this moment the helicopter is filming above
13 the road and showing the global area surrounding this location. This is a
14 flat area where in the south it's a hilly area, and flat. Small hills.
15 Still following the road. The distance is approximately three
16 kilometres from the asphalt road going from Pilica to Zvornik.
17 The road is still -- still visible here. The area towards Pilica.
18 Here it's reaching the intersection, turning towards the right, in
19 direction of the Branjevo farm. But it's just behind a large hill, not
20 visible from the main asphalt road. This is the farm. This is the field.
21 Here it is zooming on the burial area. Here comes the agricultural
22 complex. The road is totally at the top of the picture behind the hill,
23 at least 600 to 800 metres of distance, 600. Here, the execution field is
24 in front, and all this area now is a village. This is showing the global
25 surroundings. Here the farm is abandoned, 1998. The buildings are
1 abandoned but there is still corn growing.
2 So all this is the meadow. The access. And the gravel road going
3 towards Pilica.
4 So this is a ground view. The date is on the video. I don't
5 recall precisely when that was, summer 1996, I would think.
6 So here is the area of the grave.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. It's a little cold for summer.
9 A. No, it's spring here. It's early 1996. It's probably the mission
10 of March.
11 Bones, clothing, a shoe. Human remains. At the edge of a grave
13 Another date, May 1996. The garage, a tree.
14 Q. Do you recall whose APC that was that we just went by?
15 A. Yes, it was our escort. We were in the Russian sector of a
16 multi-national division north, so there was a Russian brigade assisting us
17 on this part of the territory.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. The field. Our goal that day was to collect the shell casings on
20 the surface knowing that the field had been plundered and the soil turned
21 upside down, we still believed we could find some shell casings at the
22 surface that would give us an assessment of the size of the execution
24 The back of the garage where the execution squad was resting. The
25 size of the execution field.
1 The yellow markers point shell casings that we found on the
2 surface. It was a visual search. I don't believe we had a metal
3 detector. This is a shell casing. One more.
4 We could find shell casings up to that distance of the garage, the
5 grave being to the right.
6 Q. This particular area, are there -- what's there now on this
7 particular area we are looking at right now?
8 A. On this one now, there are houses.
9 Q. For the record, that was about 7.48 something.
10 A. Here is the shell casing at a far distance from the main groupings
11 but again, since the field had been ploughed, shell casings might have
12 been taken at a further distance than where they actually fell. That's
13 why we did not take them in consideration for our assessment of the size
14 of the execution area.
15 Q. I think you mean ploughed?
16 A. Ploughed, yeah.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 A. This is an additional piece that corroborates the testimony of
19 Witness 53, who claims having found shelter under a bridge after having
20 crawled away from the execution site and we -- there were some destroyed
21 vehicles under this bridge, according to his description. So we tried to
22 find some bridge in the area, and indeed we found one in between the area
23 of the school and the farm closer to the farm, where underneath we could
24 find indeed carcasses of destroyed vehicles.
25 This is the dirt road that was leading towards the Branjevo farm
1 hill. This direction.
2 Q. All right. I believe that's the end of the Branjevo farm. And
3 let's go to the next map graphic, 222, I believe. Where are you taking us
4 next, Mr. Ruez?
5 A. I see there is a mistake. This map would be the one normally
6 showing Pilica. This is the same one than before.
7 Q. Okay. So where are we going?
8 A. Now we are going to the dom of culture of the village of Pilica.
9 Q. And why did the investigation go there?
10 A. Drazen Erdemovic is the only witness of an event that took place
11 in Pilica village, since we have no survivors or other sources for that.
12 He explained us that after having finished his, in bracket, "duty" at the
13 Branjevo farm, his platoon, his platoon and the few guys that were with
14 him and himself were tasked to go to the village of Pilica and kill 500
15 prisoners who were allegedly trying to break out of that house of culture.
16 So on his indications, we managed to find the building where the event
17 took place as well as the cafe where he was together with his comrades
18 having some drinks, meanwhile they were watching others committing this
20 Q. All right. Let's go to the results of your investigation of what
21 Mr. Erdemovic told you. At 223, what is this?
22 A. This is a photograph showing the Pilica village. At the left --
23 the road is going towards north, north towards Janja and south towards
24 Zvornik. At the right-hand of the picture, we can see a cafe, that is the
25 location where Erdemovic says he was staying meanwhile this execution was
1 done. And just in front of it, at the opposite side of the road, so left
2 of the picture, is the so-called dom culture of Pilica.
3 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot, 224. What's this?
4 A. This is a view of the front facade of this house of culture, where
5 is a monument just in front of it.
6 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot, 225. What's this?
7 A. That is a ground shot of the cafe just opposite of the house of
9 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot, 226.
10 A. This is a view of the inside of the cafe that enables us to see
11 what is visible on the other side of the road, and there is a little
12 structure just in fact one can see behind the UN truck in the middle of
13 the picture. This metal structure is a little hut, and it blocks the view
14 to the main entrance of the dom of culture and this is something that
15 Drazen Erdemovic indeed confirmed adding that the only killings he could
16 witness from the cafe were people who managed to rush out and were shot on
17 the asphalt road.
18 Q. Let's go to the next shot, 227.
19 A. This is a view of the side of this building, and the area of
20 interest is the area towards the right, and the blue door is the access to
21 the inside of this Dom Kulture.
22 Q. All right. Let's go to 228. What's this?
23 A. This is a view facing the entrance to the Dom Kulture and the door
24 at the left is leading upstairs to a little room that we call the room,
25 the cabin of the projectionist because there are two openings that enable
1 to project movies inside.
2 Q. Okay. The next shot, 229?
3 A. That's a split photograph of the metal door locking the entrance
4 to the main room of the dom of culture. There is a lock on it, and spider
5 nests in between that will then indicate us that it was certainly a long
6 time before people entered that location before we came in.
7 Q. Do you recall the date that you were here for this shot and
8 actually went into the place?
9 A. Yes. That was in August 1996.
10 Q. Okay. So let's go to the next shot, then, 230. What's this?
11 A. This is a photograph I took from the hole I was speaking about
12 before, at the projectionist cabin, so at the first floor of that
13 building, when entering the little door that was at the left, not the main
15 Q. All right. Let's go to 231. What's going on here?
16 A. This is a picture from the inside showing bullet holes and the
17 person standing is our crime scene technician, John Gerns, who is
18 collecting samples from suspect stains on the walls.
19 Q. Let's go to 232.
20 A. This is --
21 Q. I'm sorry. What's this?
22 A. This is an example of the stains we could find on the walls. A
23 team of forensic experts went back to this place end of September 1996 and
24 provided a full report about these findings, and we have the results of
25 the lab saying that all these traces are indeed human blood and human
2 Q. Okay. Let's go to 233.
3 A. An additional example of the traces that could be seen on the wall
4 of this dom of culture.
5 Q. Okay. 234?
6 A. The photograph of the stairs that go to the back of this room
7 where there is a stage, and again, blood stains on the walls.
8 Q. 235?
9 A. This is a view of the back wall of the stage, with traces that
10 will be later confirmed as being explosions traces, explosion residues in
11 black and also human residues and bullet holes.
12 Q. Okay. Let's go to 236, another United States image dated 17 July
13 and it's got yellow markers. Can you tell us first where this is and who
14 did the yellow markers?
15 A. So this is a US-provided picture dated 17 July, date that for us
16 is the burial date of the bodies at the Branjevo farm, including those of
17 the Pilica dom. The label, truck, I added it based on an original
18 photograph saying that it was a vehicle, I think, or a truck, but I added
19 the traces that we can see go towards something that was not labelled but
20 is the rear door of the warehouse -- the warehouse. The dom of culture.
21 We have photographs of that rear door that I didn't add.
22 Q. Okay. So that's based on your actually being there photographing
23 that rear door?
24 A. This is correct.
25 Q. Okay. Okay. Now we have 237. What's that?
1 A. This is a photograph again showing Pilica village, but seen from
2 north towards south, and the red arrow indicates the route a truck would
3 take in order to reach the Branjevo farm, that we -- we think or we know,
4 I don't remember exactly the source, be the burial place also for the
5 bodies of this dom of culture.
6 Q. All right. Let's just leave it as unknown at this point, then.
7 A. Come later.
8 Q. And then let's go to 238.
9 A. I think there is a video before that.
10 Q. Okay. You're absolutely correct. But the video is, if I recall,
11 about ten minutes, so it might be a good time to break.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I was going to suggest that. So we'll
13 have a 25-minute break starting from now, thank you. One moment, because
14 I think we needed to have 30 minutes because of the redaction, don't we?
15 Okay. 30 minutes. My apologies to you.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, I believe we are now at the next map
21 graph -- I'm sorry, we didn't see the -- we didn't see the video so --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, in fact he reminded you that there was a
23 video to be seen before the next clip or the next image.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct, and that is 65 ter 1820.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
1 [Videotape played]
2 THE WITNESS: So this is the arrival at the house of culture in
3 Pilica. So August 1996. The former monument in front. This has changed.
4 The metal hut that is obstructing the view from the Dom Kulture's entrance
5 when seen from the cafe. The road leading towards Janja and the cafe on
6 the opposite side. And the 360 degree tour to show the environment.
7 The access inside from the entrance that is at the facade, a
8 little room with a sealed access, freshly done. And at the left was some
9 kind of a communication centre in use at that time, August 1996. There is
10 a hole at the top right of this concrete closing. And he's putting his
11 camera through that hole, looking inside the main room of the dom of
13 Q. So Mr. Ruez. You said "he." Who is filming this?
14 A. This video was filmed by Peter Nicholson.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. That was the entrance, but the one of interest is on the side.
17 This is a view from the cabin of the projectionist of the first
18 floor of the building.
19 So the area had been roughly cleaned, but on the sides we still
20 could find among some dirt, empty shell casings.
21 And going down the stairs, Peter Nicholson will be filming more
22 shell casings.
23 This is the cafe. Again the facade, with the obstructed view.
24 Now the main door, a shell casing, and among the items in front, a
25 rubber glove. Shell casing.
1 Now he's stepping inside.
2 One year ago this place was totally untouched. It was exactly in
3 the same shape.
4 At the back of the stage.
5 Some items were found also under the stage.
6 Covers of ID cards. Shell casing. The few documents collected
7 there, piece of a photograph, one driving licence, one licna karta and one
9 Q. All right. I think that finishes up the Pilica cultural centre.
10 Now we go to your -- I believe it's a map, graphic, 238. What was
11 this designed to show us? I think that's only part of it.
12 A. So this is the map I did of what we call the crime scenes at the
13 area north, meaning by that detention centres and execution sites that are
14 at that moment also mass grave sites. So the school of Kula, the dom of
15 culture, Rocevic school, the Petkovci school, the Grbavci school, and the
16 red stars indicating the execution sites and initial burial sites.
17 Q. All right. And that's what you've just been going over. So let's
18 go to the next shot, 239, which you've entitled "mass graves at 17 July."
19 And what is this?
20 A. This one is designed to show all the mass graves existing at the
21 knowledge of the investigation at the date -- at the 17 July 1995. The
22 only ones that are not on it are very small sites like the ones of
23 Konjevici. I didn't put them on the map. They are too small.
24 Q. You said Konjevici. Is that similar to Konjevic Polje?
25 A. Yes, Konjevici is the area and Konjevic Polje is the intersection.
1 Q. Okay. All right. Let me just try to see if we can get to the
2 point. Did the investigation -- well, let me just confirm for us the
3 Kozluk site that you've described as a mass grave, was that later exhumed
4 by forensic people to find out that it was indeed a grave?
5 A. Yes, indeed, it was done by the team under the direction of
6 Professor Richard Wright.
7 Q. And how about the site at the Branjevo farm? Was that also
8 exhumed to determine if it was a grave?
9 A. Yes, it was exhumed in 1996 by the team of Professor -- I always
10 call him Bill. I'm sorry, I should call him William, William Haglund.
11 Q. All right. And did the investigation reveal that these -- many of
12 these large mass graves were actually disturbed sometime after July and
13 moved into various, what you call, secondary graves?
14 A. Yes. That was the result of the exhumation campaign of 1996 where
15 all the sites at the exception of the one in the valley of Cerska were
16 proven disturbed sites.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Now, Your Honours, this will be a
18 subject gone into more detail by Dean Manning and forensic experts that we
19 have offered through 92 bis. But for the locations --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: By the way, you may know that we have handed down
21 the Rule 92 bis decision a few minutes ago.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's good news. Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait until you see it.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sure the case will be much shorter now.
25 Pardon. In any event, because I know the locations of these
1 places are important for the Court, for obvious reasons, we will go over
2 some of these locations in a rather brief way and that will be what we do
4 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, let's begin with the first set. We go back
5 to the Orahovac site and I think we -- can you remind us this site near
6 the tracks, which number this is at -- we are at 240.
7 A. This is the so-called Lazete 2 site.
8 Q. And we had this split image from the United States. Can you tell
9 us what you can glean from this?
10 A. Yes. Following the result of the exhumations in these locations,
11 additional request was made to check the evolution of these sites in time,
12 and we were provided by imagery showing the site at the date of 7
13 September 1995, with the disturbance linked to the creation of this site,
14 and then another picture dated 27 September 1995 that clearly indicates
15 that there have been some changes on the surface of the soil in that
16 precise location.
17 Q. Okay. And did the investigation reveal some forensic conclusions
18 indicating bodies had been moved from the Orahovac site to secondary
20 A. Yes. That could be done later.
21 Q. All right. Let's now -- that was Lazete 2. Now we are going to
22 the next page, which is 241. I think we recognise this as Lazete 1. Can
23 you explain this split image?
24 A. So exactly the same situation than the previous one. Two
25 photographs. The one at the left dated 7 September and obvious changes
1 can be seen on the ground when compared with the picture dated 27
3 Q. All right. Go to the next shot, going back to the plateau at the
4 Pekovci Dam. You may have actually seen this shot but can you again
5 explain the dates?
6 A. Yes. So this one shows the plateau of the dam in the shape it was
7 7 September 1995. The initial imagery provided didn't show any
8 disturbance, but once the exhumation had started, early 1998, it was also
9 obvious that the site had been fully disturbed and indeed a comparison
10 with the picture dated 27 September shows a slight difference on the site,
11 especially due to a pile of rocks at the one edge of it.
12 Q. Now, I don't want to get into this in detail, but when you say it
13 was obvious that the site had become fully disturbed, whose conclusion was
15 A. That was the conclusion of Professor Wright once he had reached
16 the bottom of that grave.
17 Q. And he is the archeologist; is that right?
18 A. Yes, he's the chief archeologist who will explain his findings to
19 the Court.
20 Q. Okay. Let's go to 243, back to Kozluk, the same dates. What can
21 this tell us?
22 A. So on this two photographs, it's exactly the same situation, just
23 looking at them shows that there is a significant difference between the
24 photograph that was taken on September 7 and the one taken on 27
1 Q. All right. Now --
2 A. Indicating the -- that the area was tampered with.
3 Q. Okay. Now, at 244, another aerial image of back to the Branjevo
4 farm. Are all these black and white markings United States conclusions?
5 A. Yes, they are. This photograph is in the same shape than we
6 received it.
7 Q. All right. So these -- what can you tell us from this image?
8 A. The main point on this picture is that on 27 September, according
9 to the imagery analyst, there is a newly excavated trench at the precise
10 location where previously was an area identified as being a mass grave.
11 Q. All right. And just for the record, we made a slight slip in
12 indicating where this conclusion came from. As we know, it's just the
13 United States as opposed to any individual.
14 And all right. Then let's go to the next shot. It's a ground
15 shot, number 245. You've dated this 1996. What is this of, Mr. Ruez?
16 A. This is a photograph that I didn't take. That was used by
17 Professor Wright in the course of his testimony, just to show as an
18 example part of the size of the initial burial site at the Branjevo farm.
19 And the area where the three people are standing is the only area where
20 bodies were found by the exhumation team. All the rest of this large hole
21 had been robbed.
22 Q. Okay. And was that Wright or someone else in 1996?
23 A. That was Professor Haglund in 1996, sorry.
24 Q. Thank you. Where they are standing now --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, what does this part of the testimony at
1 least according to the transcript, "All the rest of this large hole had
2 been robbed"?
3 THE WITNESS: The content.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: The contents had been removed in other words?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. All right. Let's now on this two image of 245, is -- let's go to
9 246 and tell me if 246 is related to 245.
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. How so?
12 A. This is a photograph taken by a professional photographer, writer
13 named Perez who was allowed by the Prosecutor to go on site, and this is a
14 picture showing the only grouping of people who were left in the hole
15 after the disturbance occurred. I think it's something like a bunch of
16 110 individuals on this picture.
17 Q. All right. Now, let's go to number 247. This is an aerial image
18 entitled, "Glogova." Now, I don't think we have mentioned Glogova much,
19 if at all. Can you tell us you what the significance of Glogova was?
20 First of all, where it is?
21 A. Glogova is in the area we name area south. It is approximately
22 eight kilometres east from Kravica, in the direction of Bratunac. So say
23 more or less in between Bratunac and Kravica.
24 Q. And how -- if you remember -- did you identify Glogova as a place
25 of significance to the investigation?
1 A. The difficulty to remember. We went there for the first time in
2 January 1996. We were not the only ones to know about this place. Some
3 journalists did as well.
4 Q. And when you went there, did you see any -- any signs that -- of
5 any sort of burial activity?
6 A. We didn't go there -- yes -- in January we didn't look around
7 because of the press presence but we came back in April and I have shown
8 at the beginning of my testimony a few of the items we could find on
9 the -- on the area, a few bones, a shoe, items like this.
10 Q. All right. And did the investigation confirm that there had been
11 a primary mass grave at Glogova?
12 A. Yes, in fact it's an area of several small mass graves, split into
13 two sites. I think I showed these sites at the beginning of the testimony
14 when talking about the sites in the area south.
15 Q. All right. And so this particular 247 dated 30 October, what does
16 it indicate?
17 A. This is one of two photographs I think we have of this disturbance
18 ongoing. On this one labelled by US government, there is a front loader
19 in action on one of the sites. I didn't put another one but we have
20 another one in records showing the same situation on the other grave.
21 Q. All right. Now let's go to 248. What are you indicating with
22 this graphic?
23 A. This graphic summarises the situation in the so-called area south
24 showing in red the sites that have been undisturbed, so two sites at Nova
25 Kasaba, one mass grave at Konjevic Polje, the mass grave of the valley of
1 Cerska, one small mass grave in the vicinity of Glogova. I don't pinpoint
2 it precisely on the map. I don't remember its code name. And in purple
3 and pink, the two former areas of mass graves of Glogova.
4 Q. All right. Okay. Let's go to 249. We have another -- this is
5 another United States aerial image, entitled, "Zelani Jadar". Can you
6 orient us all to where Zelani Jadar is?
7 A. Zelani Jadar is a hamlet with a factory that is just south of the
8 Srebrenica enclave in -- located in an area of wilderness.
9 Q. And what does this photograph show us?
10 A. This photograph shows a cluster of six suspect areas that we
11 probed in 1996 partially, and that ended up being for all of them
12 secondary burial sites.
13 Q. And did the investigation conclude where those -- well, where some
14 of those burial sites originated?
15 A. Yes. These sites are connected with the disturbance of the
16 Glogova site.
17 Q. All right. And that will be again the testimony of others.
18 All right. Let's go to the next shot, 250. Now, this is -- says
19 LZ4. Is that correct?
20 A. No, it is not. It should be ZG4, Zelani Jadar.
21 Q. So the ZJ in American?
22 A. ZJ, yeah.
23 Q. And what is this?
24 A. So this is the result of a probe we did on the Zelani Jadar number
25 4, secondary site, where we partially exhumed some human remains. This
1 was done in the presence of Professor Haglund who is on this photograph.
2 Q. All right. Let's go to 251. You have a map graphic where you've
3 indicated about seven yellow circles is in this area. What is this about?
4 A. This is a graphic showing a cluster of secondary mass graves that
5 are located on the former road that was going from Zvornik to Tuzla and
6 that is a dirt road west of Zvornik, where aerial imagery also pinpointed
7 the presence of disturbed areas.
8 Q. All right. Then let's go to the next shot, 252. It's an aerial
9 imagery. Is this related to what you just said?
10 A. Yes, it is. This is the part of the imagery provided on this
11 cluster of sites provided by US government and showing the spots where
12 suspect places are. These sites were later probed and exhumed and
13 appeared indeed to be secondary sites.
14 Q. All right. Let's go to 253. Another map graphic with four yellow
15 dots around Liplje. What's this?
16 A. This graphic summarises the location of the four secondary sites
17 to be found in the area of the destroyed of Liplje.
18 Q. Okay. And 254, what is this? It's entitled, "Snagovo-Liplje road
20 A. This is an aerial imagery provided by US government and it shows
21 in this area of Liplje four suspect sites. We probed one, LP1, in 1996,
22 and uncovered human remains and the entire sites, not all of them yet
23 still, then they were put on the exhumation plan.
24 Q. Okay. And again there will be more information on all of these?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. We seem to be going quite
2 quickly over all of these sites and of course, the witness is just telling
3 us where these sites were and what they are the result of. But he doesn't
4 say whether this was a request from the investigation team or information
5 provided by some other sources which led to these discoveries. Maybe just
6 to help in terms of to facilitate and maybe shorten cross-examination, if
7 he could give us a little more information that would be much appreciated.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, indeed, a very relevant question and I notice
9 also, Mr. Ostojic on his feet.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President, since we are asking and
11 thank you. There is no dates on the next three series of aerial
12 photographs, so if we can perhaps cover that area as well I would
13 appreciate it.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ostojic. I had noticed that.
15 Mr. Ruez, but do you want to intervene Mr. McCloskey?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can do exactly what's requested.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President. You might imagine Mr. Ruez could
19 go at length about all these subjects. I had planned on providing you the
20 person that did the report on this particular issue with the forensics in
21 mind, that is a more detailed issue, and it was just -- I was going
22 through this so you could be familiar with the locations fundamentally,
23 but these are -- he is here, he can answer questions and that's -- we are
24 certainly ready to.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. I think it would be useful if he
1 answered the question. Don't you think so, Judge Kwon? Yes, go ahead and
2 try to address the two issues raised by Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Ostojic,
3 please, Mr. Ruez, and I thank you.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. Mr. Ruez, just as some foundation, did you yourself -- were you
6 actually involved in identifying these sites and probing these sites and
7 going to each and every one of them that we've gone over, these secondary
9 A. Yes, indeed, yes.
10 Q. All right. So perhaps we can -- well, we can start with the
11 Hodzici road area. Can you tell us if you recall what led you to the
12 Hodzici road area to potential secondary graves?
13 A. If you don't mind, I might do it in a much more simple way because
14 the situation is indeed simple.
15 Q. That may get to be a slippery slope, but why don't you give it a
16 try and we'll see what happens.
17 A. The chronology of access to all the imagery connected with the
18 secondary sites started with the discovery of four sites in the area of
19 Zelani Jadar. That prompted on our side a request for an imagery survey
20 of the area of Zelani Jadar. Following the information received that
21 showed indeed six areas of disturbances in that place and not four, as we
22 initially knew about, we probed these sites and confirmed them. Following
23 this initial request, US government took the initiative to continue the
24 search for secondary sites and we were then directly provided with the
25 imagery connected with all the other secondary sites I was talking about,
1 Liplje, the Hodzici and the Cancari sites were all found thanks to the
2 imagery provided by US government.
3 Q. Okay. And if there is any other specific questions related to
4 dates, can you just give us the dates as you can recall them that these
5 items were identified?
6 A. I do not know the date of the photographs because they are not on
7 the documents we received, but our request was funneled after the mission
8 of April -- no, or maybe June. During the summer 1996, but the date of
9 these photographs, I don't know them.
10 Q. The report of Mr. Manning has the individual photographs with all
11 the individual dates related to these individual sites, Mr. President, so
12 it's my fault that he is not prepared to answer that?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for giving us that information, Mr.
14 McCloskey. Thank you.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
16 Q. And I think we now go to the two -- well, 253 in our chronology.
17 Actually, no, we've been there. And we are at 255 where you've got some
18 sites that you've made reference to already, Cancari. What is this?
19 A. This graphic shows a cluster of nine sites. In fact there are 12
20 in the valley, on a stretch of dirt road a bit more than eight kilometres
21 long in the valley of Cancari.
22 Q. All right. And how did you find these?
23 A. We found these following -- I mean, with the help of the
24 American -- aerial imagery, following the indications of the aerial
25 imagery and we went and dug samples at several of these sites.
1 Q. And were they probed to contain human remains?
2 A. Yes, they were. And once we confirmed they were containing human
3 remains, we did put them on the exhumation plan.
4 Q. All right. Let's go to 256. And what is this of?
5 A. This photograph shows the global area of the Cancari valley. At
6 this moment it is seen from west towards east. The large hill at the end
7 should then be federal republic, seen in that direction.
8 Q. Okay. And we go to 257. What are these aerial images?
9 A. These images show the entire valley with the cluster of 12 sites.
10 In fact, I squared in red the two sites -- the three sites -- there is one
11 that is not seen, it's completely at the bottom right, because these three
12 sites are related to one primary grave and all the others to another
13 grave. So this is to show that there are 12 sites in this valley.
14 Q. All right. And how they are related to the other primary graves
15 is subject of another testimony or I'm sure Mr. Ruez remembers much of it.
16 258, we've -- what is this?
17 A. This is a closer view of the Cancari site number 12. The picture
18 being turned in order to be compared with another view from helicopter
19 that shows exactly the same site, and in order to give you an approach
20 from above to the ground and then under the ground at that precise
22 Q. Okay. Have you chosen this Cancari 12 as a particular example to
23 show the Court?
24 A. Yes. Because I made a video on site that was for other purposes,
25 but that can help understand how this secondary sites exhumation process
1 was conducted.
2 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot, 259. Is this related to 258 as
3 you mentioned?
4 A. Yes, it is. So it is exactly the same site seen from the same
5 angle but this time it is a helicopter view showing at the left the road
6 that goes inside the valley, the exit of the valley being at the bottom
7 left of the picture, and then let's say the parking area for the vehicles,
8 then the mass grave itself. The white dots next to the grave are body
9 bags. At the right is the morgue container with some body bags next to
10 it. Then there is a water tank container with showers and toilets.
11 Q. All right. Now, which of the forensic experts was in charge of
12 the science of this dig?
13 A. Professor Richard Wright.
14 Q. And who was in charge of the investigation side of the dig?
15 A. The one who was in charge of the investigation on site was always
16 one team member. We always had one team member in rotation, being full
17 time present on these exhumation sites, secondary sites.
18 Q. But what was your role in the -- in the supervision of the
20 A. I was informed about the findings, but my role was mainly to
21 identify these locations, pinpoint them, probe them, then pinpoint them
22 for the exhumation team, and then I kept in touch with the results of it.
23 But as you said, one investigator was specifically in charge to compile a
24 report and I was not entering the details of what was found in these
1 Q. All right. And let's go on to the next page, 260. What is this?
2 A. This is an overview of the surface of a secondary site, Cancari 12
3 secondary site.
4 Q. What are we looking at?
5 A. We are looking in fact at body parts and bones, some skulls, this
6 being the first layer of a site that is in fact underneath this level.
7 That's the first layer.
8 Q. All right. And did you take a video of parts of the exhumation of
9 this particular site?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. And have you narrowed that down to about 19 minutes?
12 A. Could be.
13 Q. Okay. Well, I think we are ready to play that video. It's 65 ter
15 [Videotape played]
16 THE WITNESS: So this is the site still untouched yet, with its
18 The road leading towards the exit of the valley, so towards the
19 road that goes from Zvornik to Konjevic Polje. It's a remote valley with
20 absolutely all the buildings inside this valley destroyed. This is a
21 forensic team preparing the mapping of the site.
22 This is an exhumation backhoe that is used to scratch the surface
23 before starting any exhumation.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. Who is the man in the picture?
1 A. The man at the left is Professor Richard Wright.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. His goal at this moment is to find the perimeter of the grave that
4 can be visualised through a difference of colour of soil.
5 He's then marking the perimeter, the difference in colour, with
7 Q. Mr. Ruez, who is shooting this video?
8 A. I am shooting this video.
9 Q. And this information you're telling us about, who did you learn
10 that from?
11 A. I learned that the difference of colour first by Professor Haglund
12 in 1996 and later when I was in contact on the sites with Professor
14 Q. Thank you.
15 A. And here you can see a very obvious difference of colour, the
16 greenish being mud that was in contact with bodies.
17 The archeologists are starting to dig a perimeter around the
19 This is a first finding since the grave was a little bit longer at
20 the bottom than it was expected when the surface was scratched.
21 The trench around is getting down to the bottom of the grave. So
22 the entire mound here is in fact the grave, and they are working around
24 This is a drain for the water at the left. And this is one hand
25 that is for the moment being protected with a plastic bag.
1 This is a shoe.
2 Here, the investigator, Jan Kruszewski, is looking for shell
3 casings with a metal detector.
4 This is the first finding of one shell casing in this grave.
5 The shell casings are of importance because they will be one of
6 the main elements to connect the sites each with another, execution sites,
7 primary graves and secondary graves, through shell-casing analysis, among
8 other methods.
9 As you can see it is a very precise process. All these people are
11 Every day the site was filmed before being protected, and it was
12 guarded during the night.
13 This is a foot that we uncovered, but the first time we went to
14 probe the site.
15 So this is the total surface of this secondary mass grave.
16 So each body part was taken out separately.
17 Every relevant item being mapped inside the grave.
18 Q. Mr. Ruez, given the pieces we see that the remains are in, were
19 the scientists able to give the investigation in the case any figures upon
20 the total number of people represented by those remains?
21 A. In this specific grave, I don't remember precisely the number. I
22 would think that this one contained 80 bodies.
23 Q. But my question is, were they able to sort that out by some
24 anthropological means?
25 A. Yes, the first means was indeed anthropological but I know now
1 that you will receive a new number of victims based on DNA analysis and
2 this will be very different from the number we previously were using.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you.
4 A. This is an example of how difficult it can be for the forensic
5 archeologists to recover just sometimes one piece of body, since if it is
6 connected to something, an arm or a leg, they have to go to the extreme to
7 get it out in one piece.
8 I already mentioned that some years ago, but with these pictures
9 the smell should go with it.
10 It made it short, but this body part took approximately 15 minutes
11 to be taken out.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's about break time or almost. We are
13 almost finished if that's possible.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if you wish to have a break now, we obviously
15 can have it now but we still have 15 plus 7, that's 22 minutes.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can actually finish, Your Honour. My time is
17 not very good.
18 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, let's move beyond that and you have one --
19 let's see, where are we? At 261. Let's go to 262 now, I think.
20 A. M'hm. Yes.
21 Q. And again I think you are just summing up, if you can do that?
22 A. No, it's not that one. It's after the exhibit showing the first
23 layer of Cancari 12. Yes, this one.
24 Q. Okay. That's 261, I'm sorry. And so what is this?
25 A. So this graphic summarises the previous one and shows on one map
1 all the sites in the area north related to exhumations, primary sites, the
2 purple stars, and second sites the yellow dots.
3 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next map graphic then, 262, the area south?
4 A. The same situation than the previous map. The disturbed sites of
5 the area south, so Glogova, and secondary sites at Zelani Jadar.
6 Q. Okay. And then 263, what's this?
7 A. So this is the map of the global area showing the dispersion of
8 these crime scenes on a territory that is approximately 70 kilometres
9 north-south and 40 kilometres east-west, showing the primary burial sites
10 that are for most of the time the primary execution sites as well. Then
11 the burial sites that are disturbed and finally the secondary mass graves.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. It just does not show the detention sites that could be added to
14 this map.
15 Q. All right. That's in another one of your graphics you've already
16 discussed, though, I think. So let's -- there is the final group of
17 photographs entitled, "destruction of mosques". So let's go directly to
18 that first one. What is this of?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes?
20 MR. HAYNES: I do question the relevance of this section of his
21 evidence. I would be obliged if is somebody could tell me what paragraph
22 in the indictment it goes to.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this kind of thing would be very
25 helpful to receive before we click it on to the screen but I can respond
1 of course. This evidence will show that shortly after the fall of
2 Srebrenica or at some point after the fall of Srebrenica, the mosques were
3 destroyed. There is a persecution count in this case and of course it's a
4 genocide case as well, so I think the ethnic destruction of a community
5 and their religious sites is a pretty critical point.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. Go ahead, Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Ruez, can you tell us what this is from?
9 A. This is a still picture of the main mosque, centre town of
10 Srebrenica, that I reconstructed using four extracts from the video filmed
11 by Mr. Petrovic, who by the way was not from B92 as we previously said but
12 from Studio B. That is a different thing.
13 Q. Thank you for that correction.
14 A. And so this one is at the date of its film, his film, so 13 July
15 and it shows a mosque standing in the centre of the town.
16 Q. What town?
17 A. Srebrenica town.
18 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one. And what is this?
19 A. So this is a photograph that I took in -- it was on -- the date is
20 on the picture, 10 April 1996, and that shows that same mosque, centre
21 town, but it has obviously been severely damaged.
22 Q. How were you able to tell it's the same mosque as we saw in the
23 previous photograph?
24 A. Yes. One can recognise at the back of the previous picture a
25 yellowish building. You can see that same building on the photograph
1 dated April 1996.
2 Q. Okay. Let's go back to 265. All right. Let's go to the next
4 JUDGE KWON: But Mr. McCloskey, why is this picture different from
5 mine which I dug out from the e-court?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: If you could share -- there are --
7 JUDGE KWON: I dug out the picture using the 65 ter number, so I
8 think this is the example of some problems of the e-court. So that can be
9 sorted out later on but I see it is the same subject but it's a bit
10 different. Let's move on.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, in our chart I think we said similar to 65
12 ter, not match, but that was typical of the situation. It's the same
13 mosque, different angle, I believe, is the explanation.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
16 Q. Mr. Ruez, if we could go to the next shot. And what is this?
17 A. This is again a picture from centre town Srebrenica seen from the
18 hill and in the middle of the picture you can see again the mosque. It
19 has suffered more damage since April. I do not remember precisely the
20 date of this second picture of the mosque. Could be the year after.
21 Q. All right. Well, let's not speculate on that but let's go to the
22 next number, 267.
23 A. This is a closer shot of the same -- the same location.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. Where one can see more details, the dome and the minaret being
1 erased since the previous picture.
2 Q. Okay. Let's go to 268. What is this?
3 A. This one is exactly the same area than all the other ones. This
4 photograph is dated 1998, and the yellow arrow shows -- points to the
5 location where the mosque previously was, and on this picture, it is
6 transformed into a concrete parking space.
7 Q. All right. Thank you. Let's go to 269. And what is this of?
8 A. This is a photograph of a mosque that is on the road going from
9 Srebrenica centre town towards Zelani Jadar.
10 Q. So, is this a different mosque than the one we've been looking at?
11 A. Yes, it is different and this one is photographed in April 1996.
12 One could extract a picture from the video when Mladic is driving towards
13 Srebrenica town. At one point there is a view on this mosque that can
14 only -- that can be recognised from some black parts on one wall, if we
15 would compare the two pictures.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. The difference with this one is that the building is in April 1996
18 severely damaged.
19 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. What's this?
20 A. This is the former minaret of this mosque, seen from the side.
21 Q. All right. Let's go to, I believe, the last -- the last shot.
22 A. And this is the same mosque seen from the front. It was later
23 totally erased.
24 Q. All right.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, I was able to find a photo of
1 Bratunac that did not have the Bratunac Brigade cut out of it by the title
2 and I would -- I provided that with a copy to the Defence and I would
3 also -- I think I would like to mark it as 272, just so we have a better
4 picture in the record that -- I don't know if there is any need to ask the
5 witness to go over it at all but it's a slightly different photograph but
6 it's centre Bratunac with a clear shot of the -- actually there is some
7 writing on it, so perhaps we should go over it.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any remarks, objections from the Defence
9 team? None? Yes, I suggest you show it to the witness and we will have
10 an opportunity of seeing it ourselves.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think we better put it on the ELMO so the
12 Court and public can see it. And this is a different photograph of
13 Bratunac than the one where we had the brigade blotted out.
14 Q. But, Mr. Ruez, do you recognise what this photograph depicts?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. And does it -- if you could just take a look at it for a moment
17 and tell us, is it -- does it show the same basic buildings and structures
18 that were in the previous photographs of Bratunac?
19 A. Yes, it absolutely does.
20 Q. And as far as you know, is this material that's written on it
22 A. So for the Vihor bus company I went there. Yes, it is accurate.
23 Information about the buses in front is coming from a witness. The
24 location of the old school, the hangar, the Vuk Karadzic school, I
25 confirm. I've been there. The position of the buses in front we now know
1 it's not correct. They were lined up in the street just in front of the
2 building and not parallel.
3 Q. Which building?
4 A. The Vuk Karadzic school.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. The police station, I cannot confirm. I never went there.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. The SDS office, yes, I searched it. Hotel Fontana, several
9 meetings were held in there.
10 Q. Can you confirm that's the correct location?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Bratunac Brigade HQ, yes, because I led the search there. Bus in
14 front, we know it from Dutch witnesses. And the buses, that's a very
15 rough position because in fact the buses with the arrow towards Konjevic
16 Polje is coming from a witness who said that he was in a line of buses at
17 the exit of Bratunac town. This is why it's written there.
18 Q. All right. The orientation to the arrow towards Potocari; is that
20 A. Yes, all the markings are correct, as far as I know.
21 Q. All right. Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, you'll take care of giving this
23 document a number, an exhibit number? Mr. Bourgon?
24 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Further to the last
25 question which was posed by the Trial Chamber concerning this exhibit,
1 there was no objection from the Defence. However, there will be an
2 objection from the Defence when the time comes to admit Exhibit 2183 or
3 2103, sorry, which is a new exhibit that was not on the Rule 65 ter before
4 the testimony began.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's the entire -- the CD containing the
6 entire collection of these 271.
7 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. And when will we have the
9 pleasure of seeing this motion?
10 MR. BOURGON: We thought we would do that orally when the
11 Prosecution will request for this exhibit to be entered into evidence.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Fair enough.
13 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Mr. Ruez, finally, did you write a written report, a written
16 police report, for all of your various police activities as an
17 investigator in this case?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. Did you have any way of recording what you were doing?
20 A. Yes. Several.
21 Q. Can you very briefly explain what they were?
22 A. These mainly were administrative, what we called admin logs when
23 we were going on mission, providing the details of what we did, hour by
24 hour. We also had all the photographs that we had ERNed, given an ERN
25 number, to be entered in evidence, as well as most of the time the videos,
1 thanks to the presence of Peter Nicholson, that were providing information
2 not only about the date but also about the details of what we were
4 Q. What about -- did you interview any witnesses yourself?
5 A. Yes, I did interview several of them, and their statements were
6 also turned into evidence through an ERN number.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. And I forgot to speak about our internal documents which are our
9 mission reports that provide information about what we did during the
10 mission, with the dates and the activity.
11 Q. All right.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that's the end of my direct
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
15 I think we'll have the break now. And you will start immediately
16 after the break, Mr. Zivanovic.
17 Now, tomorrow we will not be sitting, as you know. But I think if
18 we have a clear or a clearer indication now or fresher indication of how
19 long your respective cross-examinations are planned to last, that would
20 help us plan and also Mr. Ruez with his employers, with his superiors.
21 Yes, Madam Fauveau?
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, before we start
23 with the cross-examination, in order to have an idea of the time we will
24 have, you must know that we received the transcript in B/C/S only today,
25 transcript of prior testimony by this witness in the Erdemovic case, also
1 in the Rule 61 proceedings and also the audio recordings. So we can only
2 give them to our clients tomorrow morning and given the policy in the
3 detention unit, they will held them only on Thursday, so I'm not sure
4 whether we can start with our cross-examination before the -- our clients
5 have learned about the prior testimony given by this witness.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you limiting your comment to your client only or
7 are you speaking for the totality of the Defence teams?
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe, Mr. President, that this
9 is the common position by the Defence teams. The accused are entitled to
10 have the prior testimony in a language they understand.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's have the break now. We will
12 resume in 25 minutes' time and we will let you know what our position is.
13 Thank you.
14 --- Recess taken at 5.42 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 6.13 p.m.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's deal with this matter very shortly. Very
17 briefly. Number 1, we are informed that the sooner counsel hand over the
18 CD, relative CDs at the detention unit for onward forwarding to your
19 clients, the sooner it will be dealt with. On our part, we are also
20 enjoining the commander, the authorities of UNDU to expedite the handing
21 over of the CD, relative CDs, to all the accused because time is not only
22 of the essence but is crucial for our purposes. We have got one day,
23 tomorrow, grace, in the sense that we are not sitting tomorrow and a lot
24 can be achieved, but it's important that the whole process is expedited in
25 the interests of a better administration of justice.
1 Coming back to you, Madam Fauveau, and when I say to you, of
2 course, as spokesperson for the rest of you, our position is as follows:
3 We don't believe that the fact that your clients haven't had the
4 opportunity to see these texts or hear these videos or recordings in their
5 own language should be in itself an obstacle for the commencement of the
6 cross-examinations today. We do acknowledge, however, that consultation
7 between you and your clients is a right that you have and that such
8 consultation might require either of two things. If it's done in real
9 time before Mr. Ruez has left The Hague, then we can have a fresh round of
10 further cross-examination as may be required by the various teams. If --
11 that's if Mr. Ruez is still here. If Mr. Ruez has left and you wish to
12 have him come back, I'm sure the French authorities will facilitate his
13 return here to The Hague and we will have a fresh round of
15 In the meantime, however, you have all had these documents in your
16 possession. You all speak or read the English language, or at least one
17 member in each team does, so there is no reason why we should not start
18 with the cross-examination, and I see Mr. Zivanovic already anxious to
19 stand up.
20 Yes, Mr. Ostojic?
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Excuse me, Mr. President. Perhaps I'm more anxious
22 than he but I would ask before we begin, I have a question if the Court
23 may permit, and that is if Mr. Ruez would give us his mission statement,
24 his administrative log sheets, and it's been asked by several counsel both
25 in this and other cases and I don't see under the rules that it's
1 prohibited to tender such documents. I think it's important because as
2 we've seen from several tapes, they are a mix of a couple different years
3 and dates, and if we could at least get that, it would help us in
4 presenting a more eloquent and fluid cross-examination.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I will not speak for Mr. Ruez. Perhaps
6 you would like to address the Trial Chamber on this, Mr. McCloskey. Who
7 owns the -- who is the legal owner of these mission statements?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a tough question. I can tell you the -- I
9 believe the Office of the Prosecutor has copies of them. And I would
10 guess it's sort of a joint ownership situation. Again, this is an issue
11 that came up in Krstic, and the Court found in that case that they were
12 internal work-product documents and it has been the policy of the Office
13 of the Prosecutor to stand by that and object to that case.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Blagojevic, was there a similar request?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Blagojevic is where my most current
16 memory is on that. It doesn't probably go back to Krstic in my memory but
17 Blagojevic is where it came up and there was a denial. And again, this is
18 the kind of issue that would be benefited by more time to get but I can
19 tell you it's been our policy to object to handing this material over
20 based on it's an internal work product. And Mr. Ruez's situation is,
21 since he's testified so many times, that his -- his record is really in
22 his testimony, in his films, in his interviews and the other material he
23 mentioned, so that's the argument in the synopsis of the argument, Mr.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Do you wish to add anything, Mr. Ruez,
1 before I give the floor to Mr. Ostojic again?
2 THE WITNESS: No, I have nothing to add to that.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you in possession of this mission statement or
5 THE WITNESS: I don't call them mission statements. The mission
6 statements have an ERN number and in my view are fully available to the
7 Defence. I'm not yet talking about mission statements. Some of them do
8 exist. But about the mission reports, and I indeed have kept all my
9 mission reports up to the year 1999, I think.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to clarify that, I think what Mr. Ruez means
12 by submission statements is the probably hundreds of witness statements
13 he's taken and others have taken which should be in the possession of the
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know whether you are fine-tuned, the three
16 of you. Mr. Ostojic?
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, we may not be, but if Mr. Ruez has the
18 statements, we believe that it should be produced and disclosed to the
19 Defence. If the only objection is that it's an internal work product, I
20 think they've waived that under any jurisdiction. They are not applying
21 Rule 70(D) and this witness is not himself applying that because that rule
22 applies only by use of a witness so that I would ask this Court to please
23 instruct the witness if he could bring it, and given Your Honour and the
24 Court's ruling that we can revisit the issue, we are not asking for a
25 delay based on that, but I think it would assist us immensely both in
1 preparation for the balance of the week and for the future. So we would
2 again ask that we have those documents produced to us.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll decide on this on Thursday
4 afternoon. In the meantime, let's start with the cross-examination --
5 yes, Mr. McCloskey, you want to start earlier.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could remind Defence, we haven't really
7 received too many Defence counsel's documents on what they plan to use for
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't received anything basically.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that rule is -- I don't view that as an
11 exclusionary rule, but I know it's one that we should try to live by.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think I fully agree with you.
13 So Mr. Zivanovic, before you start, do we have an initial feedback
14 on how many -- how much time you require, each, for your
15 cross-examination, saving what I said earlier in case you need to put
16 further questions later on. Mr. Zivanovic?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I just tell you that I believe that one hour and a
18 half will be enough for my cross-examination.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic?
20 MR. OSTOJIC: Given the testimony being limited, no more than two
21 hours, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
23 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. We figure that we can fit
24 it in one hour, or an hour and a half at the most, which is half of what
25 we had planned for. Thank you, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic?
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour, same as Mr. Bourgon, one
3 and a half hour at most.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Madam Fauveau?
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Between two hours and two and a
6 half. It could be shorter because some of my colleagues may have already
7 covered some subjects I wanted to deal with.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Krgovic?
9 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, half an hour, maybe less.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes?
11 MR. HAYNES: I can't imagine there will be more than half an
12 hour's issues left for me to deal with.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that's -- so we are in the region of about
14 ten hours, and that basically means more or less three days minimum. If
15 we go for the next half -- yes, Mr. McCloskey?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, just because this may not happen again, we
17 were within half an hour of our estimate of 11 and a half hours, so just
18 to have a positive note.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. I wish that would set the
21 Mr. Zivanovic?
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez. Mr. Ruez, the first time you went to
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina was on the 29th [as interpreted] of July 1995?
1 A. It was a bit earlier than that. In my recollection, if I take the
2 date, the first date when I arrived on the territory of former Yugoslavia
3 was in order to reach Tuzla through Split and I think that was 20 July
5 Q. This is exactly what I said, on the 20th of July?
6 A. Sorry, I had seen 29 written on the.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, same here, so that part of the transcript goes
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You were in Tuzla?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You went there to collect information about Srebrenica; is that
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. You got in touch with the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And you communicated with those bodies that were also involved in
19 the collection of information on the Srebrenica case?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Given the fact that you had a goal in common, I suppose that you
22 had a common methodology when it came to the collection of data?
23 A. A common goal, I would not put it like this. And certainly not a
24 common methodology in any case, no.
25 Q. Through the Bosnian authorities, you reached a certain number of
1 witnesses who could provide you with information on Srebrenica, is that
3 A. Absolutely true.
4 Q. You got in touch with the second corps of the BiH army amongst
5 others, is that true?
6 A. Contact was made with the command of the 2nd Corps, but not before
7 the year 1998.
8 Q. I'm going to show you a document which we obtained through the EDS
9 system, the number it bears is 02631668. This is on our 65 ter list as
10 document number 1D012. We asked for the document to be translated.
11 However, this is still pending. I'm going to read it for you in B/C/S and
12 you will receive interpretation. I apologise. Correction. The number of
13 the document is 1D010 on our 65 ter list.
14 Can you see the document in front of you?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. In the left upper corner, it reads, "The army of the Republic of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the command of the 2nd Corps, security department,
18 number SP 06-101-160-8/95, Tuzla, 10 August 1995." In the right-hand
19 upper corner, there is a handwritten entry saying, "Follow-up on the
20 document" and below that, it says, "Defence of the republic, military
21 secret, strictly confidential." Then you can see the ERN number of this
22 document. Below it to the left it says, "Command of the 2nd SNB, PK, for
23 security." PK stands for the assistant commander for security. And after
24 that, there is a title. The title of this document is, "Statements by the
25 fighters of the 28th division of the army, tasks." And then the body of
1 the text, which starts with, "Follow-up on your document SP number 16-194
2 dated 7 August 1995." So this is the reference.
3 The statements that you submitted enclosed with the
4 above-mentioned document contain certain information which, to a large
5 extent, refer to the transfer of a group of fighters and civilians from
6 Srebrenica to the free territory and they contain very little information
7 on war crimes or genocide. Pursuant to our instructions that you received
8 during the lecture that was held on the 3rd of August 1995, in the
9 veterans hall of the command of the 2nd Corps, the statements had to be
10 taken to refer to war crimes and genocide.
11 In the documents that you received, there is a detailed and
12 appropriate description of what should be contained in a statement that
13 refers to the aforementioned crimes, starting with the information on the
14 person from whom the statement is taken, to its other components that are
15 obligatory for such a statement. The statements that you have provided us
16 do not contain what is necessary. Therefore, they don't comply with the
17 instructions. In addition to that, the statements have to be signed both
18 by the official who took the statement as well as the person who provided
19 the statement.
20 In that sense, these statements have to be taken in a prescribed
21 form, complying with the instructions provided to you in this document.
22 Should you seek any further consultations regarding the instructions
23 provided to you, you should contact the official for security of the 2nd
24 Corps, Captain Hajro Kofrc who is at your disposal. You should act on
25 this document and carry out the tasks in compliance with these
2 Signed by the assistant commander for security, Colonel Mehmed. I
3 believe the family name is Zilic but it is not easy to see because of the
4 stamp and on the stamp it reads, "the command, the corps command, the
5 security department."
6 Tell me, please, whether you have ever seen this document before?
7 A. I see it for the first time.
8 Q. Did you know this person, Mehmed Zilic?
9 A. I don't recall knowing anyone by that name.
10 Q. And what about captain Hajro Kofrc?
11 A. Never heard about.
12 Q. Did you in any way obtain information that there were any binding
13 documents issued by the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina based on which
14 statements were taken from the witnesses?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: The question is awfully broad and vague. I have a
17 feeling this government had many binding orders or statements and I don't
18 think it's answerable in that form.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see whether Mr. Ruez has understood it in a
20 more restricted manner than you have and whether he can answer it. If
21 not, then you need to itemise it, narrow it down to specifics because I
22 suppose there are rules and regulations on modes of interrogation and
23 drawing up of statements, and this is universal. But any way, Mr. Ruez,
24 have you understood Mr. Zivanovic's question and are you in a position to
25 enlighten us on it?
1 THE WITNESS: I have understood his question and I believe I have
2 guessed on what his worry is about. The answer is simple. As I said, we
3 had no contact with the 2nd Corps command before 1998. The first thing we
4 did when we arrived in Tuzla was both gaining access to statements people
5 already gave to the authorities, two sets of authorities were taking
6 statements, as far as I know. One being the war crime commission, the
7 second being AID. We also approached UN bodies in Tuzla, since we knew
8 that certain number of interviews had been taken by UN personnel in Tuzla.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Since we are hearing of AID for the
10 first time in this case, of course we know, but, for the record, could you
11 please explain what AID was.
12 THE WITNESS: The sign AID stands for Agency for Investigation and
13 Documentation. It is better known under the acronym, the secret service.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: So, sorry.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, go ahead.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I'm sorry. This appears to be
18 calling for a narrative. Mr. Ruez is guessing what the question would be.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, let him finish.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm having a hard time connecting the two.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him finish first. That's why I specifically
22 asked him whether he was in a position to answer the question. So please
23 let him finish it first. And if he hasn't answered or Mr. Zivanovic is
24 not happy or you are not happy, then we can go back to the specifics.
25 Yes, Mr. Ruez?
1 THE WITNESS: I think Mr. Zivanovic will be happy with my answer.
2 We also came with what we called the questionnaire. It was a
3 document prepared by the Office of the Prosecutor before we left, and that
4 contained all the information we would need in order to identify the
5 witness, in order to get to the point with this witness, in order to have
6 a traceability for him. So we showed these documents to our contacts in
7 Tuzla, and I believe that this -- the document you show is the result, in
8 fact, of these contacts made between 21st July and 5th or 8th or 10
9 August, that, in fact, 2nd Corps got the information about our methodology
10 you were referring to, that we need indeed signed statements, that we need
11 to know who took the statement, and elements like this.
12 This is what -- how I interpret this 2nd Corps order since we were
13 indeed not focusing on army personnel that managed to sneak out of the
14 area. But nevertheless, we would be ready also to take knowledge about
15 some of these statements so we needed to have them in a proper format but
16 this was not an order issued on any of our request. It was an internal
17 process between the authorities.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, we got there. Mr. Zivanovic?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Thank you. One more thing I would like to ask you, and I would
21 like to be more precise in that. Were you aware of the fact or did you
22 know at the time that the statements that were taken from these witnesses
23 had to include a certain number of elements? And I'm not implying to the
24 name of the witness or the signature. There were some other elements that
25 had to be included in such statements. And if you want me to, I can go
1 over the second paragraph of this document to remind you of what those
2 elements were.
3 A. I remind the elements, not very precisely, but I know what they
4 are about, and, again, my guess is that since we had told to the
5 authorities that our main focus would only be on people who had very
6 severe crimes to report, and that we would not be able to face a large
7 amount of documentation, we would only be busy with witnesses of a heavy
8 weight, I can say. Therefore, I believe this document is designed to
9 maybe identify people of that kind or at least spare the work to be done
10 in a large collection process, since our focus was already known early
12 Q. Does this mean that you, i.e., the investigators of the Tribunal,
13 provided the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina with those binding
14 elements that these statements were supposed to contain?
15 A. No. What we quickly explained is that we would only be focusing
16 in a first stage, first stage that lasted very long, on mass executions.
17 We would not go into an interview process to interview every person who
18 went on board of a bus. That was 25.000 people. Nor would we interview
19 people who had witnessed physical abuse or even one individual murder.
20 That was not our focus of interest. And this we told it very quickly to
21 the authorities so that they would not lose time interviewing hundreds of
22 people who had witnessed one, let's call it, detail, compared with the
24 Q. One may conclude based on your answer that you provided the
25 authorities with some instructions but not in the way I worded my question
1 to you?
2 A. I reject your word "instructions." This was in no way
3 instructions. In a few days, we already had access to some 600 statements
4 that we were trying to translate and read in order to prepare an interview
5 process of selected people, so the authorities were very quickly made
6 aware that we had to make a very tough selection among all these
7 statements. In terms of numbers, I inform you that at that time we were
8 two investigators on site and that we were joined then by a third one. So
9 the entire interview process of the summer 1995 was done by three UN-ICTY
10 investigators, assisted by one local, let's say, interpreter and one
11 analyst who spoke the language, plus then the interpreters for the
12 interview process, but all this analysis was done by a few people.
13 Q. In this document, the word "instruction" is mentioned as
14 guidelines. Is this a more adequate word? Would you agree with the
15 word "guideline" being a more precise word than the word "instructions"?
16 A. I would even reject that, since I don't know who gave these
17 instructions or directions to the deputy commander of the 2nd Corps. What
18 I know is what I just told you. How this was then interpreted by the
19 persons, the officials we were in contact with, and how they reproduced
20 that to other official bodies, I have absolutely no idea.
21 Q. Your contacts with the officials, did they take place before the
22 3rd of August 1995?
23 A. Yes, they did take place as soon as we arrived in Tuzla.
24 Q. In other words, after the 20th or the 21st of July 1995?
25 A. This is correct.
1 Q. I would like to move on to another topic, and that is the issue of
2 recording and videotapes. We saw a number of videotapes, a total of 271,
3 that were introduced by the Prosecutor's Office?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Maybe some confusion in the transcript.
5 We did not see a number -- a total of 271 videotapes. There were some
6 videotapes, and saw some graphics.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, photos, photos, photographs.
8 I apologise.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, it was just for the record that I pointed this
11 JUDGE KWON: Just one clarification before we move on, Mr.
13 Mr. Ruez, those 600 statements, were those made available to you
14 by the authorities of Bosnia in 1995?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes. That happened in two groups, but as soon as we
16 arrived we already had access to several hundred statements that had been
17 taken by the authorities from the refugees who were coming to Tuzla.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Kwon.
20 Mr. Zivanovic?
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Let me correct myself. We have seen 271 photos that the
23 Prosecution introduced as evidence. In some of these photos, you could
24 see arrows or circles or squares. My question to you is as follows: Did
25 you put those signs in at least some of those photos? And I'm referring
1 to the arrows, squares and circles.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I will allow the question, but he's testified
3 about this amply already by specific reference to specific photos and
4 specific graphics. I think he has distinguished those he's made himself,
5 those that were used in Krstic, marked in those proceedings and those with
6 identification words from the US government or US authorities. I mean, if
7 you want to go deeper, I will not stop you by any means, but I think he's
8 gone through this.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. I'm just going to clarify one
10 thing with the witness.
11 Q. Is it true that no marking was done by him on any of the photos
12 submitted by the American government? This is something that I would like
13 to clarify with the witness.
14 A. So as I said, when I showed each photograph, all the markings that
15 are in yellow or in colour are my personal markings, except on two
16 photographs that I pointed that these ones were used during the trial of
17 General Krstic. So all that is in white on US-provided imagery is US.
18 All that is colour, I did put it myself on these pictures.
19 Q. Can we look at the photo 24, please? 2-4. Does this mean that
20 the yellow inscriptions, "65, PR compound, and buses, 3", is something
21 that you put on this photo?
22 A. Absolutely, yes.
23 Q. Whereas the other two inscriptions are part of the original
24 imagery submitted by the US?
25 A. This is correct.
1 Q. Can we now look at photo 28, please? I apologise, 27.
2 Does it also mean that the markings on this photo are also yours?
3 And I'm referring to the words "groups of prisoners" and "football field"?
4 A. On this specific one, in fact, no. This was a pre-marked picture
5 that I used. It had been used during the trial of General Krstic but I
6 validated -- I would have done the same markings, had I done it.
7 Q. Does this mean that these markings, namely groups of prisoners and
8 football field, were already there before they came into the possession of
9 the Prosecutor's Office?
10 A. No, not at all. These markings have been done during the
11 preparation of the trial of General Krstic, in order to be presented to
12 the Court during his trial.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have much time left but I recall part of
14 your testimony in which you said that markings such as groups of
15 prisoners, et cetera, were marked either by you or in the previous trial,
16 the Krstic trial, upon a specific indication by the US authorities that in
17 their evaluation, that was an image of persons, individuals, grouped
18 together in the field or whatever.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct, on one of these pictures, it is
20 written, "People". And these markings that were done probably in 1999, in
21 preparation of the trial of General Krstic, were done either by someone of
22 the Office of the Prosecutor or by myself, but I do not have the
23 recollection it was done by myself but I repeat that I validate them and
24 had I done it, I would have done it in the same way.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].
2 Q. Does this mean that you also identified the two dark spots circled
3 in yellow as if these were people, groups of people?
4 A. Absolutely.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's just answered it. He said he
6 co-validated it. So why do you want to ask him again? I mean, you can
7 ask him whether he's prepared to change his mind on that but he's
8 confirmed once, twice, that he co-validated this assessment.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, yes.
10 Q. You put the circles here based on your assessments that these were
11 indeed groups of people?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can we please look at photo 28, please? I apologise. This is an
14 enlarged image of the previous photo. Can you please tell us where did
15 you draw your conclusion that these spots, darker spots, represent people?
16 A. I draw the conclusion in the fact that I trust the material
17 provided by US government, so I trust these groupings, these dots, to be
18 people, as I trust the fact that the dots on the Branjevo farm are dead
20 Q. Thank you. I would like to show the witness this photo of the
21 town of Bratunac that was provided to us earlier today by the Prosecutor.
22 Have you ever seen this photo before, sir?
23 A. Yes. I provided the original to the OTP.
24 Q. And you also marked certain places in the photo?
25 A. I said I provided the picture, but I'm not the one who did the
1 marking. I think this marking was done for the sake of the trial of
2 General Krstic. No, not for Krstic. It was for the other trial in 2003.
3 Q. In a nutshell, you don't know who made the markings on this photo?
4 You only know that it wasn't you?
5 A. This is correct. I validated the spots I know, so all of them
6 except the police station, where I didn't go.
7 Q. In this photo, in several places, red letters denote the position
8 of buses?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And for which date is that? When were these buses here?
11 A. This is the -- between the 13, end of afternoon, and the 14,
12 around midnight.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think we have to stop there for today,
14 Mr. Zivanovic. The time is up.
15 We will resume on Thursday at 2.15. Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
16 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I just have one question
17 maybe which will greatly facilitate cross-examination for the other
18 people, the other parties on Thursday and at page 50, line 13 of the
19 transcript, the witness answered a question to the Prosecutor and said, "I
20 know that you are expecting new figures on DNA analysis and that this will
21 change the figure." Are we supposed to expect something new from the
22 Prosecution? Is there something going on that we are not aware of about
23 getting DNA figures? It would assist for cross-examination purposes.
24 Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, you can deal with this within a few
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe there has been reports that have been
3 provided already about DNA figures, as they are coming in from ICMP. We
4 are getting them out to the Defence. I can speak with Defence about that
5 and make sure that that's happening.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that. Thank you so much, Mr.
8 We stand adjourned, Thursday, 2.15 in the afternoon.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of
11 September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.