Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2006

1 Friday, 22 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, ma'am. Could you kindly call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. So good morning, everybody. I see

10 the -- if there are problems with interpretation, as usual let me know,

11 please. All right. Mr. Bourgon, who is missing.

12 Mr. Haynes, yesterday I noticed you had a new member on your team

13 that I had not noticed before.

14 MR. HAYNES: Yes. That was one of our legal assistants. That's

15 Ingrid Morgan. Sorry, I didn't introduce her.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's just the way I'm intervening --

17 MR. HAYNES: By the way, good morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Madam Fauveau, is your team

19 here?

20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No change.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And Prosecution, I don't -- I see Mr. Nicholls. I

22 also thought for a moment that I saw Mr. Van der Puye. So it's Mr.

23 Nicholls and Mr. McCloskey. I am informed that there are some

24 preliminaries. Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Just this at the end of the session yesterday Mr.

Page 2007

1 Ostojic pointed out that the witness had a notepad in front of him that

2 had some handwriting on it, and I asked if I can inquire about. I asked

3 the court usher this morning if she would ask the witness if Mr. Ostojic

4 could take a look at those notes. And I guess he agreed because they were

5 brought out and I think a copy has been made for the Defence.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need to go into it as it is.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know if they have a copy. They requested a

8 copy.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We would not preempt the issue because we've heard

10 you. We haven't heard Mr. Ostojic and we haven't heard the witness. So

11 if there is a problem, objection on the part of the witness, or on your

12 part, I don't know, then we'll deal with the matter, but otherwise

13 please --

14 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection from me.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So anything else? None?

16 Madam Usher, could you kindly bring the witness in. Thank you.

17 [The witness entered court]


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Colonel Boering, good morning to you.

21 THE WITNESS: Good morning, gentlemen.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome once more. Mr. Nicholls will be finishing

23 his direct within the next hour or so, and then we start with the

24 cross-examinations.

25 Mr. Nicholls.

Page 2008

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

3 Q. Good morning, Colonel. Just a few more topics I wish to cover

4 with you this morning. When we left off yesterday, we were talking about

5 the 12th of July, after the third meeting at the Hotel Fontana. You

6 described how you went to Potocari after that meeting and then returned to

7 Bratunac in order to talk to Momir Nikolic, and then you returned from

8 Bratunac again to Potocari. And what I'd like to ask you about now is if

9 you could please describe the scene at Potocari on 12th of July after you

10 returned from Bratunac for the last time when you had tried to speak to

11 Momir Nikolic. What did you see there? What was going on?

12 A. I drove back in my own Mercedes. The intention was to return to

13 the compound. At Potocari I saw lines of buses and trucks heading toward

14 Potocari. I overtook them. Some of the buses and trucks had already

15 passed our camp, and at the entrance to our camp or slightly beyond that

16 you could see VRS soldiers present, including General Mladic. They were

17 speaking with the population, that is to say the refugees, and appeared to

18 be planning to prepare transport and board the people. A camera crew was

19 there as well. It was a Serb camera crew to record what was happening.

20 Q. Why do you say they appeared to be planning to transport and board

21 people? How did you arrive at that impression?

22 A. I was driving without an interpreter because our own Muslim

23 interpreter was too frightened to head toward Bratunac. The only

24 interpreter who was not afraid was my interpreter Petar, and he wasn't

25 available. So I tried to follow what was happening, but I couldn't always

Page 2009

1 understand everything.

2 Q. And what was, as far as you could see, what was the Muslim

3 population doing at this point while -- while the VRS were there?

4 A. The entire area had been closed off with red tape. There were a

5 few DutchBat soldiers present as well. The population was waiting. Some

6 were curious about what would happen and looked like they were interested

7 in making a run. That was my impression.

8 Q. Did you personally speak to or attempt to speak to Mladic while

9 you were in Potocari at this time?

10 A. Yes. I tried. Upon arriving, when I saw what was happening, I

11 went to the camp and addressed Lieutenant Colonel Karremans at the command

12 post and mentioned what was happening in my view. Lieutenant Colonel

13 Karremans requested that I approach Mladic and at the very least object to

14 him. I was to point out to him that the infirmed, the elderly, and the

15 women should be transported first. So with that in mind, I headed off in

16 that direction, and if I remember correctly an interpreter was with me, or

17 at least Petar was there. At least somebody to speak with.

18 I headed toward General Mladic. At that moment or slightly

19 afterwards, somebody from MSF, Medecins sans Frontieres, joined us and the

20 three of us started talking, and later on Lieutenant Colonel Karremans

21 joined us.

22 Q. And were you able to make your objection to Mladic, and what

23 happened?

24 A. He listened to our objections, but nothing happened as a result

25 because the buses and trucks, later on the trucks, were indeed filled with

Page 2010

1 people who were waiting there without any selection of the injured or the

2 elderly.

3 Q. And were you able yourself personally to see people being putting

4 on these buses?

5 A. Yes. I saw that personally. I walked past the buses to see what

6 was happening. At first the arrangement was that at least one or two

7 DutchBat soldiers would accompany each bus, but that didn't work out. I

8 assume it was the rush that everything happened with.

9 Q. And what people were being put on the buses, men, women, children?

10 Can you just describe the people you saw who boarded onto the buses?

11 A. I'm talking about the first convoy that departed. What I saw

12 consisted largely of elderly women, children, and in some cases some boys

13 and here and there a considerable number of elderly men and a few

14 individual men between the ages of 16 and 60, but most were elderly women

15 and children.

16 Q. I'd like to show you a very short video clip now that's number

17 2009. If you could look at your screen.

18 [Videotape played]


20 Q. Were you able to see and hear the video clip, Colonel?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I caught the point when it started. I know that it

22 finished at 1.58 something, but anyway, the video started at 1 hour, 57

23 minutes, 28 seconds, and finished at about one minute later.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: If we can have the last still, we can put it on

Page 2011

1 record with more precision. And I would prefer it that way, because

2 it's -- no, no. It's right to the end. That's it. 1:58:50. Thank you.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. And I think --

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to make -- this is, I take it, part of one much

6 longer video recording, isn't it?

7 MR. NICHOLLS: That's correct, Your Honour. It's part of the

8 entire -- what we call the trial video, but this segment has an individual

9 65 ter number for the record, although it is an extract.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So -- but it's -- as such, what we have seen

11 is the entire segment of 2009.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Perhaps as we go along and we make use of

14 further videos, if there are segments you could kindly tell us that they

15 are segments and whether it's the entire segment that we're seeing or

16 whether it's only part of.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: I will do that, Your Honour. I --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. It's just to streamline the procedure and

19 make it a uniform one as we go along.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. I will say for the record that all of the

21 clips I played yesterday were entire clips. There were no excerpts from

22 clips, and I think I gave the 65 ter number for all of them.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, you did, and in fact I made a record of

24 that. Thanks a lot.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

Page 2012

1 Q. Now, the part of at that clip that I'm interested in, Colonel, is

2 where General Mladic speaks to the person speaking initially with the blue

3 helmet, the DutchBat officer, who says to General Mladic: "Roger. I will

4 inform our commander. Our commander has no information about a plan."

5 General Mladic in response: "It regards my order. I couldn't care less

6 for your commander. We will board everyone who wants it."

7 Can you just comment on that answer from General Mladic and how it

8 fits into what you've been saying about the concerns you had with the

9 boarding process?

10 A. In my view, General Mladic did what he said. This happened

11 without consulting DutchBat, or at any rate, without considering the

12 arrangement that DutchBat felt it had made with General Mladic.

13 Q. You talked about the convoy that you saw. There were a few men on

14 it, mostly women, children, and the elderly. Did you see what was

15 happening to the men between 16 and 60 in Potocari while you were there?

16 Still speaking about the 12th of July, in the afternoon.

17 A. As far as I remember, there was a building across from Potocari

18 where men of Muslim descent were gathered. The building was guarded by

19 VRS soldiers. I saw it happening.

20 I entered the building briefly. I was in the first room on the

21 ground floor, and I saw some Muslim prisoners sitting on the floor. There

22 were some passports in a corner, or other identity cards.

23 I wanted to continue looking around the building, but I didn't

24 have authorisation, and I was removed from the building. And I received a

25 clear indication with a gun that I should leave or I would run into

Page 2013

1 problems.

2 And around the back of that same building I saw, in any case, a

3 group of VRS soldiers marching off behind the building to do something

4 that was not clear to me. These soldiers were being marched off by

5 Mladic's bodyguard who recognised me and said, "Pay attention to what

6 we're doing." I couldn't accompany them. I was stopped by some dogs.

7 And later on I heard shots being fired behind the building. And those are

8 my observations about what was happening with the Muslim men at that

9 moment.

10 Q. All right. Let me ask you --

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, before we go on, in the answer to the

12 previous question, Colonel Boering had said that, "In my view" -- it's

13 page 7, line 10. "In my view, General Mladic did what he said." I wonder

14 if the witness could clarify what Mladic had said.


16 Q. Yes, please, Colonel. If you could explain what you meant by that

17 part of your answer.

18 A. I'm quoting what General Mladic indicated on the video, which was

19 that he was not concerned about what Lieutenant Colonel Karremans was

20 saying, that he would do what he wanted.

21 Q. And that he did do what he wanted. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 JUDGE KWON: My question is: Which is what?


25 Q. And what was it that he wanted to do? If you can explain that

Page 2014

1 that you're referring to.

2 A. It is difficult to look in somebody else's mind, but I assumed

3 that he had the intention to transport refugees by buses in the way he

4 wanted it to happen, without any consultation or without any difficult

5 selection procedures.

6 JUDGE KWON: It's still not clear to me, but I believe it will be

7 further explored during the cross-examination. Thank you.


9 Q. Let me ask you it this way, still on the same topic, Colonel:

10 What Mladic said was, "I couldn't care less for your commander. We'll

11 board everybody who wants it." And you answered, "In my view, General

12 Mladic did what he said," and you've explained that you thought that

13 General Mladic didn't care or consider any arrangement that had been made

14 with DutchBat. Did you mean any more than that, or anything else you can

15 add to -- to your comment that General Mladic did what he said he was

16 going to do?

17 A. A discussion was going on with a representative of MSF, who

18 insisted that we should care for the wounded, that they should be

19 transported in a fitting manner, and General Mladic was extremely short in

20 the way he communicated with the MSF representatives. He indicated that

21 the person in question was not a military personnel and that the operation

22 had to be executed.

23 Q. Thank you. Let me go back to the question you -- we were talking

24 about, your last answer about the house where the men were gathered, the

25 Muslim men. Who was gathering the men into this house? How were they

Page 2015

1 gathered, as you say, into this building?

2 A. They were gathered by VRS soldiers. As to how they were gathered,

3 I can say that from among the population gathered near the compound for as

4 far as I could see, men were selected and subsequently led towards the

5 building. During the short moment that I could observe people travelling

6 off by bus, I could also see moments where people were not allowed into

7 the buses and had to step aside and were subsequently led off.

8 Q. And you're referring there to men who were not allowed to board?

9 A. Yes. I have seen this in the case of one man at least.

10 Q. Now, the other event you described was, if I understood you

11 correctly, bodyguards for Mladic marching somebody behind the White House

12 and telling you --

13 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, I object to that. He hasn't given any

14 evidence as to it being a White House.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained. In fact, one of the things I

16 wanted you to address was this building because there were several

17 buildings.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: I apologise, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Condon.


21 Q. Marching somebody behind the building and telling you to pay

22 attention, and you said that the person -- that there was a soldier being

23 marched behind the building. Who was being marched behind the building by

24 Mladic's bodyguards? Can you explain that a bit more?

25 A. I meant to say that the bodyguard of Mladic gathered -- had

Page 2016

1 gathered a number of VRS soldiers, that he led them behind the building.

2 Q. And then what happened?

3 A. What happened then was that we heard shots being fired behind the

4 building. And my attempts to try and take a look at what was going on

5 behind, this was prevented by VRS soldiers who had dogs. So therefore, I

6 could not take a look at the events.

7 Q. So this bodyguard of Mladic gathered some VRS soldiers and led

8 them behind the building. Did anybody else go behind the building with

9 the soldiers and Mladic's bodyguard? Did they bring anybody with them?

10 A. I have not seen this.

11 Q. And as best you can recall, what exactly did the bodyguard say to

12 you when he addressed you? Try to remember.

13 A. He said to me in English, "Look, Major, what I'm going to do."

14 Q. I'd like to show you an image now. It's number 1535.

15 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, I object to this as well.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: On what ground?

17 MS. CONDON: Well, the witness hasn't given a description of the

18 building.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So what?

20 MS. CONDON: Well, this may well be an issue, Your Honour, in

21 terms of which building it is that he's talking about and I'd ask him to

22 give a description first before being shown the photo.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to disappoint you, Ms. Condon, but we don't

25 see the -- any validity in your objection.

Page 2017

1 So, Mr. Nicholls, please proceed.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

3 Q. Colonel, can you take a look at that picture and tell me if you

4 recognise the building in the picture or any of the buildings in the

5 picture.

6 A. Yes. I can recognise this building as the so-called white

7 building or White House. The building behind it, behind the electricity

8 poles a little bit to the left, is also a building I remember. This is a

9 former factory, and this very clearly is the building I was referring to.

10 Q. Just to be very clear, could you --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I mean, we need to be clear. Which --

12 this is confusing. He's -- first he refers to one building which he

13 maintains is the so-called White House. Then he refers to the other

14 building with which he seems to be familiar, too, describing it as a

15 former factory, and then immediately after he said, "And this is very

16 clearly the building I was referring to." Which of the two buildings was

17 he referring to?

18 MR. NICHOLLS: I was going to ask that, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


21 Q. And if you could maybe take the pen, Colonel, or the stylus, and

22 please mark the building which you've called the former factory. Just

23 draw --

24 A. My apologies. This, what I'm pointing at now, is the former

25 factory.

Page 2018

1 Q. Sorry, Colonel. We'll get it working in a minute.

2 A. Not yet. I can give some short comments. We see the white

3 building. We see the high tension electric wires. We see a white

4 building to the right of the electricity poles which is the white building

5 I referred to, which is the building in which the prisoners were held.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm glad I'm in a courtroom, not in a dentist's

8 clinic. Mr. Nicholls.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Unfortunately, he can't mark the --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. I think we have understood.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: So I'd ask the record to reflect that he has

12 identified the white building at the right of the photo, to the right of

13 the electrical pylons is the building he was describing is where the

14 prisoners were held.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think his description was enough. Thank you.


17 Q. When you went into the building and you saw the prisoners there,

18 could you tell me approximately how many prisoners you saw, if you

19 remember?

20 A. Approximately 8 or 10. Eight to ten.

21 Q. And you say you saw some passports or identity cards. How were

22 you able to tell what those were? Or how did you decide that those

23 documents were passports or identity cards?

24 A. Well, we had been in the enclave from January to June. Regularly

25 we would deal with people who would apply for jobs for DutchBat or people

Page 2019

1 who needed to be transported because they were wounded towards Tuzla. So

2 in those cases we dealt with ID cards. We had to establish the identity

3 of people. This was part of my job.

4 Q. Okay. Did you do anything after -- after you had been told to

5 leave this building where the prisoners were held, the White House? What

6 did you do next?

7 A. I went outside. There I saw a United Nations observer. I believe

8 it has been Major Kingori from Africa, who was there together with the

9 Dutch United Nations observers, Mr. De Haan. I asked them to keep

10 surveilling the building or at least count the number of people that would

11 enter it from that point in order to keep an overview of the situation,

12 and they indicated that they would do this. Subsequently, I left in order

13 to continue my inspection of events in the compound.

14 Q. And when you say you asked them to keep count of the number of

15 people that would enter the building, do you mean keep count of the number

16 of VRS soldiers or keep count of the number of prisoners?

17 A. I meant the number of prisoners or people taken prisoner.

18 Q. I want to ask you now about how you came to leave Potocari that

19 day and about the first convoy. If you describe what you did after --

20 after leaving the -- after the events you've just described.

21 A. That moment the buses and trucks were loaded with refugees. It

22 was unclear where the buses and the trucks with the refugees would travel

23 to. Near the entrance to the camp, Major Franken was present, the deputy

24 commander of DutchBat, and he asked me to accompany the first convoy with

25 my Mercedes in order to see what was going on. And he also presented

Page 2020

1 another person, Major Voerman, and both of us were to accompany or to

2 follow the convoy. Subsequently, I quickly gathered some belongings. I

3 took the car and we drove up to the head of the column. And at that

4 moment the column was already departing, so I caught up with the column

5 and I checked where they were driving to.

6 Q. The transcript didn't catch the name of the other major who

7 accompanied the column. Could you give us that name again?

8 A. The name of the other person was a captain, not major, Captain

9 Voerman, V-O-E-R-M-A-N.

10 Q. Thank you. How many buses were in this convoy? Approximately.

11 A. Maybe 10. There also was a number of trucks, approximately six.

12 Q. Was there any VRS escort for the convoy?

13 A. Yes. The first vehicle was a civilian vehicle where the major I

14 referred to before, the person responsible for the transport of the

15 refugees was present, and this vehicle drove at the head and the man

16 inside was the somewhat organiser of the general events. Near the sides

17 of the road, near crossroads that we passed, we also saw VRS soldiers.

18 Q. That VRS officer you're referring to, is that the person you

19 called Kosavic or Kozaric earlier?

20 A. Yes, that is him.

21 Q. I would like you to look at map 5?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Is he sure of his rank, that was a major or not

23 something else?


25 Q. Can you remember the rank, Colonel?

Page 2021

1 A. I cannot state this with certainty. I believed him to have been a

2 major, but here my memory is not completely certain.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


5 Q. Can you describe -- can you describe, while we are getting the

6 map, the route the convoy took?

7 A. Should I use a pen or simply tell you orally?

8 Q. You can just tell us orally as we look along with you on the map?

9 A. From Potocari to Bratunac.

10 Q. Take a moment to look at the map, sir.

11 A. And then at Bratunac, left at Bratunac, and then it continued to

12 Glogova, Kravica, Sandici, to the left toward Milici, and that takes you

13 to the junction at Maglici, to the right at Vlasenica and then ending up

14 at Tisca. That's the route we travelled. Later on the route was clear to

15 me, but at the time I didn't have a map with me, and I simply followed to

16 see where we were going. At the point I knew Bratunac, but the other

17 places we drove to at a certain point I saw a sign saying Milici and the

18 name of Vlasenica. I saw that as well. I didn't have a map with me, but

19 I'm positive this is the route we drove.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One question, Colonel. While you lived there in

21 Srebrenica, did you familiarise yourself with the Cyrillic alphabet and

22 script?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I studied Greek and Latin, so I had

24 some familiarity with those languages.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So the purpose of my question was to get to know

Page 2022

1 from you whether you would have encountered at the time any difficulties

2 in identifying signs along the road.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I could recognise them and

4 figure them out. It wasn't easy, but I could do it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for that information.

6 Mr. Nicholls, he's back to you.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

8 Q. Now, at any point were any passengers or people who were on that

9 convoy taken off and separated from the convoy?

10 A. What I remember is that the convoy generally continued along the

11 same direction. On the road between Bratunac and Milici, we made one stop

12 because of a shooting that took place. Then we continued through Milici

13 and somewhere near Tisca we stopped. There the people were de-boarded

14 from the buses and trucks. They were assembled, and at that point I saw

15 that some men were selected and taken away separately.

16 Q. How many men, approximately, were selected and taken away

17 separately?

18 A. From my observations, perhaps 10 or 15. I didn't see any more

19 there. It was very crowded there, and I didn't have much freedom of

20 movement left any more.

21 Q. What were the ages of these men who you saw being separated?

22 A. Well, let's say they were older than about 14 and younger -- it's

23 difficult to estimate. 60 or 70.

24 Q. Could you see where these men were taken or what happened to them?

25 A. People were separated in the direction of the forest. I tried to

Page 2023

1 see where they were going, but at a certain point I was blocked and taken

2 back to our position where most of the refugees were. I was not

3 authorised to walk any further.

4 Q. All right. A couple questions. Who separated the men and took

5 them off, and who was it who blocked you? If you could answer those two

6 questions separately.

7 A. Near Tisca they were VRS soldiers, and the person in charge who I

8 remembered from a previous meeting was Major Sarkic. He was the

9 organiser, and he indicated that he was doing this job upon assignment

10 from the Drina Corps, with his militia brigade. He mentioned that in

11 broken German.

12 Q. And it says militia brigade, but can you tell us if you remember

13 which brigade Sarkic was attached to?

14 A. If I remember correctly, he was an LO with the militia [as

15 interpreted] brigade.

16 Q. I think you said "Milici". It's been translated as "militia".

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, just to be sure we're not confusing it with the

18 town Milici. Perhaps somebody who is perhaps following in B/C/S would get

19 confused.

20 JUDGE KWON: LO being liaison officer?


22 Q. Is that correct, Colonel, that Sarkic was the liaison officer?

23 A. Yes, he was introduced as a liaison officer.

24 Q. Did you ask him any questions about what was happening with these

25 men and where they were going? You already described what he said, but

Page 2024

1 was there any other discussion with him? And by "these men," I'm sorry, I

2 mean the prisoners who were led off.

3 A. I don't remember that, but I do remember that I was surprised that

4 I wasn't allowed any further to see what was happening, and I was going to

5 report this as soon as possible.

6 Q. How were you able to communicate with Major Sarkic? Did you have

7 an interpreter, or how were you able to speak with him?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he already said that they conversed in

9 broken German -- or, rather, that Sarkic spoke broken German.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm sure you're correct.

11 Q. I'd like to show you a short video now. It's 2037. And if --

12 this will be the entire clip. It is extract from the larger trial video.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop, please.

16 Q. It's kind of blurry, but can you see yourself in this picture

17 anywhere? If not, we can play it some more. And we're at 2:15:28.8.

18 A. Yes. I see myself in the upper-left corner next to the soldier,

19 and there's a small boy in front of me with a white shirt. I'm next to

20 the soldier with the belt. And on my left it's difficult to see. There's

21 Captain Voerman also from DutchBat. He's wearing a blue beret or helmet.

22 Q. Thank you. If we could play the video.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. Colonel, could you -- you were there. Can you describe what we've

Page 2025

1 just seen in this video. What's going on there?

2 A. This is the end of a walk through no man's land. Between the two

3 fronts was a road that had not been used for a long time. I think they

4 walked about five or six metres [as interpreted] across it, and at the

5 other end they continued on toward Kladanj and that brought them to the

6 Muslim side. And then you see -- part of the video you see the reception

7 there.

8 It was quite hot, and the transportation went from the enclave to

9 Tisca, and after waiting -- the walking and waiting took a few hours, and

10 especially by the end, quite a few people were at the end of their rope,

11 and they were thirsty and hungry.

12 Q. Why did you walk with these people we've seen on the video, the

13 people from the convoy, over into the Muslim-held territory?

14 A. I was requested by Major Sarkic. When I arrived, he was working

15 with VRS soldiers to de-mine the area where they would be walking. He was

16 uncertain of part of the route. He was afraid of coming too close to an

17 area with Muslim fighters. So that's why he urgently requested me and

18 Captain Voerman to escort the first group as liaisons so that the refugees

19 would be confident they were heading in the right direction.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, on page 20, line 2 of the transcript, it said

21 that this walk from Tisca to Kladanj was five or six metres. Is that

22 supposed to be kilometres?

23 A. Yes. Maybe it was five kilometres. It wasn't metres. Four or

24 five kilometres.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Nicholls, it's still not clear to me

Page 2026

1 whether in his testimony the witness, Colonel Boering, meant to tell us

2 that Colonel Sarkic or Major Sarkic had left with the convoy from Potocari

3 or whether just found him there when they stopped near Tisca. If he could

4 explain that, please.


6 Q. Yes, Colonel, please. Was Major Sarkic -- did he accompany the

7 convoy from Potocari, or did you meet him in Tisca when the people were

8 taken off the buses?

9 A. I met him in Tisca. He was a bit taken aback by the large number

10 of refugees arriving and asked me whether I could tell him how many

11 refugees were coming and how many needed to be processed, because he

12 wasn't equipped for that. So Major Sarkic was not if full communication

13 with Potocari.

14 Q. Finally, I want to ask you - I'm coming to the end of my

15 questions - what you did after reaching Kladanj. Were you able to contact

16 your command? What happened next?

17 A. First, I was taken prisoner, in a manner of speaking, by Muslim

18 soldiers who wanted to start by interrogating me about who I was. They

19 didn't trust me. It took some time. And then we were fetched, I don't

20 remember exactly who it was, by a UN soldier, and then we were taken ahead

21 by a Dutch soldiers who took us to a Dutch group in the neighbourhood.

22 I made my reports, and after consulting the battalion on

23 Lieutenant Colonel Karremans, we did not return, and from there I returned

24 home via Split. I spent about a week there.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have one moment, Your Honour.

Page 2027

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]


3 Q. Thank you, Colonel. I have no further questions at this time.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We've finally arrived at the

5 cross-examination. Have you -- are you going to continue using the same

6 pattern as before? Will you go first, Mr. Zivanovic?

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The order is the same but cross-examination of

8 this witness will be by Ms. Condon.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. Condon.

10 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examination by Ms. Condon:

12 Q. Colonel Boering, I'd like to ask you some questions about your

13 role as liaison officer. Yes? You've given evidence about the fact that

14 you maintained contact with the civilian leadership at Srebrenica. That's

15 correct?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Yes. And you've given evidence in relation to your contacts with

18 the leaders in the 28th Division of the ABiH; is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Is it fair to say that the role of a liaison officer is an

21 information-gathering exercise? Is that a fair description?

22 A. Well, the commander also gives you authorisation up to a certain

23 level, and beyond that he has to act in that interim area you act on

24 behalf of the commander. So it's more than simply gathering information.

25 You also have a mandate, but that grows through your understanding with

Page 2028

1 the commander.

2 Q. That's right, isn't it? You reported directly to Lieutenant

3 Colonel Karremans, didn't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Yes. So in those meetings that you would have on a weekly basis

6 with, for example, the leaders of the 28th Division, you would no doubt

7 report back that -- back to Lieutenant Colonel Karremans as to the outcome

8 of those meetings; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. And in preparing for the meetings, as well if incidents

10 occurred, you would review those and discuss them. And if there were

11 major incidents, then you would come along, or Major Franken would come

12 along.

13 Q. Well, perhaps if I can put it to you in a more overt way. Would

14 you consider yourself in the same capacity as an intelligence officer?

15 A. No. Those are different, two different things, an intelligence

16 officer.

17 Q. But you agree that your role was, as we discussed, to obtain

18 information from the meetings that you attended. You agree with that?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Condon, he's confirmed already that that was

20 part of his overall function but couldn't constitute the beginning and the

21 end.

22 MS. CONDON: Yes, Your Honour. All right.

23 Q. Now, I want to ask you in relation to your meetings with the

24 military leadership of the 28th Division, where were those meetings held,

25 Colonel Boering?

Page 2029

1 A. Most occurred in the postal building where the UN representatives

2 were present, and very occasionally they were convened at the camp in

3 Potocari or in Srebrenica.

4 Q. When you refer to the postal buildings, I think you made a

5 reference to that as the PTT building in one of your statements. Is that

6 the same building that you're referring to? Yes. I see you nodding.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that also as you understood it the building that was used as

9 the quasi-headquarters of the 28th Division at that time, or one of the

10 buildings?

11 A. It was used as headquarters but not the headquarters of 28th

12 Division. Occasionally meetings were convened there, but it was used

13 primarily for using the connections with Tuzla.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Condon. Sorry to interrupt you, but

15 I think lines 24 and 25 of page 23 and first line of page 24 need some

16 clarification, because as it is it would convey the idea that the PTT

17 building that he's referring to is not the PTT building in Srebrenica.

18 You're referring to the PTT building in Srebrenica, which is in

19 front of the hospital; is that correct?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's correct. It's near the

21 hospital.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


24 Q. Well, just so we're clear, when you say it was used as

25 headquarters, what do you exactly mean by that, Colonel Boering?

Page 2030

1 A. I didn't say it was intended as a headquarters. I said that it

2 could be used as a place to establish connections and to contact Tuzla

3 from there. Meetings with the local population, such as the mayor, they

4 were held in the town hall, and that was with the ABiH soldiers. Once a

5 week or once every two weeks they would be in the PTT building, but they

6 would simply drive up. It wasn't really a headquarters that was equipped

7 with soldiers and maps, no. That was somewhere else.

8 Q. In relation to your meetings with the civil authorities, can you

9 recall the names of the individuals that you specifically dealt with?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

12 A. The mayor, when we arrived, if I remember correctly, that was

13 Osman. He was about 50. There was also a Hamdija, who was the deputy

14 mayor. And I forget the name, but we could trace that in my previous

15 statement. There was also a former veterinarian or physician who was

16 involved. Those were the three main people.

17 Q. And it would be fair to say, would it not, that in your role as

18 liaison officer, you would primarily deal with leaders in the community on

19 the civilian side? Is that correct?

20 A. In the beginning that's true for the first two months, because I

21 had a colleague there who focused primarily on contact with the military,

22 but because of various circumstances, this colleague was transferred back

23 to the Netherlands, and I -- maintaining contact with the military was

24 added to my responsibilities, or rather, I assumed that responsibility as

25 well.

Page 2031

1 Q. Now, you've given some evidence in relation to the difficulties

2 that were observed by the DutchBat in relation to food supply into the

3 enclave. Do you recall that evidence?

4 A. Could you state your question a bit more clearly, please?

5 Q. Okay. I'll be a bit more specific. The fact is while you were

6 there will in the Srebrenica enclave there were difficulties in terms of

7 humanitarian aid and food coming into the enclave; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. And what your evidence was on, I believe, Monday or Tuesday, the

10 BSA was certainly responsible in some respects in creating that

11 difficulty. Do you agree with that?

12 A. I don't know whether I said that. I remember saying that the

13 convoy system depended on permits issued from Pale and that I didn't know

14 how that worked in Pale. From below, we would report to Major Nikolic

15 that we were requesting a convoy.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Condon. I take it that when you are

17 referring -- when you're using the acronym BSA, you're referring to

18 Bosnian Serb authorities.

19 MS. CONDON: No, Your Honour. The VRS or the BSA.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, because VRS is VRS, and BSA is more taken to

21 be -- to mean Bosnian Serb authorities. So -- yes, Mr. Nicholls. So we

22 need to be clear. If you're referring to the armed forces or the army

23 itself, you refer to as VRS, as we have been referring it -- to it

24 throughout. Otherwise, BSA would be Bosnian Serb authorities to me.

25 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 2032

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. I'd request transcript references. I

2 think Your Honours has made an oral order about this earlier that parties

3 are supposed to say which date and page to say they're referring. I don't

4 think there's a reason to say you said it Monday or Tuesday because we all

5 have transcripts immediately and there's plenty of time to prepare for

6 this.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the second point I was getting to. You need

8 to refer the witness to the specific part of the transcript where he's

9 supposed to have stated what you said.

10 MS. CONDON: I will, Your Honour. Perhaps, I'll take him

11 specifically to the particular issue that I --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mind you, he doesn't remember because he went

13 exactly to mentioning again Pale which he had mentioned before in that

14 context, but let's be a little bit more precise.

15 MS. CONDON: I have at page 41, line 8 to lines 22 on the 19th of

16 September that there was reference to obstruction of aid convoys, but I'll

17 put the question again, Your Honour.

18 Q. Colonel Boering, in particular you gave evidence about the fact

19 that a black market had emerged as a result of that. Do you agree with

20 that?

21 A. Yes, that existed.

22 Q. Now, were you aware that -- or did you have any suspicions as to

23 the role of any of the military leaders in the 28th Division being

24 involved in that, in the black market?

25 A. I don't have any proof. I think it's clear that there were

Page 2033

1 earnings through the black market, and whether that's associated with the

2 military leaders of the 28th Division, I suspect that there was, but

3 actual proof, especially because soldiers sometimes exited the enclave,

4 and if there was smuggling, it happened from Tuzla toward the enclave or

5 from Zepa toward the enclave. On occasion that -- might not be present in

6 the enclave and he might say he'd been to Zepa briefly. So that people

7 would stay elsewhere and possibly smuggle. And about the leaders, well, I

8 have suspicions but I can't prove it.

9 Once I attended a banquet at the mayor's place that was like a

10 four or five-star banquet while the rest of the population was really

11 suffering.

12 MS. CONDON: If the witness could be shown 1D0019. I'm not sure

13 if it's 000 or 00, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]


16 Q. Now, at page 3 of this document in English and also page 3 in the

17 B/C/S version, but obviously for you, Colonel Boering, I'll direct your

18 attention to page 3 in the English version, the third paragraph --

19 A. I can't see a document in English. I see a document in a

20 different language.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You should be able to -- no. It's in B/C/S as well

22 the one we got now.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I see the English one.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We need one in English and one in B/C/S so that the

25 accused can follow, please. At least on one screen. On a screen that is

Page 2034

1 more accessible to the accused it should be in B/C/S. If you need time to

2 organise this, we can have the break and we do it afterwards.

3 MS. CONDON: If that's easier, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. It's past our time anyway. So we'll

5 have a 25-minute break starting from now, and thank you for understanding,

6 Ms. Condon.

7 MR. MEEK: Mr. President.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You were very anxious to leave the courtroom.

9 MR. MEEK: One minor issue. Is the Prosecution going to give us

10 copies of this witness's notes he's been referring to since he started

11 testifying?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it's the Prosecution that will give

13 you those. You need to ask the witness to make them -- or put a question.

14 I thought this had been referred to the witness. He had agreed. So maybe

15 you can thrash it out now --

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Obviously, I don't have the notes but I don't have

17 any objection to anything being provided.

18 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you start again, Ms. Condon -- or you can

22 remain seated. Just one question to Mr. Meek. Have you been provided

23 with the -- okay. So you don't have any further problems.

24 MR. MEEK: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Colonel, for your cooperation.

Page 2035

1 Ms. Condon.

2 MS. CONDON: Thank you.

3 Q. Colonel Boering, do you have that document in front of you in

4 English?

5 A. I see English text in front of me, yes.

6 Q. And I want to draw your attention to the third paragraph on the

7 English document beginning with "The increasing mistrust ..." Do you see

8 that there? Do you see that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. I'll read it out to you: "The increasing mistrust felt by the

11 citizens of Srebrenica for the civilian and military leadership was

12 encouraged by the unequal allocation and manipulation of goods provided by

13 humanitarian aid. Naser Oric and municipal officials Osman Suljic, Adem

14 Salihovic, and Hamdija Fejzic were linked to this. There is information

15 indicating that these men smuggled humanitarian aid, weapons, oil, et

16 cetera, and that they collaborated with members of UNPROFOR and even with

17 the aggressor in their smuggling activities."

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we -- can you tell us, please, what document

19 we're looking at?

20 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, this is --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Not the number.

22 MS. CONDON: The actual document -- forgive me, Your Honour. I

23 should have indicated that from the outset. This is a document that is

24 addressed to General Delic. It's dated on the original the 23rd of

25 February, 1995, and it is from Brigadier General Jasarevic. It's a

Page 2036

1 summary on the fall of Srebrenica and Zepa, which raises obvious questions

2 in terms of the accuracy of it being the 23rd of February, 1995. It

3 simply cannot be because it refers to events that occur in April, May,

4 June, July of 1995. So I wouldn't imagine there would be much dispute

5 that that must be an error on the original document, and of course the

6 original document's in evidence as well, Your Honour, in the sense that

7 it's part of the Defence exhibits.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Am I right that we have seen this document before

9 already? Have we?

10 MS. CONDON: Not as far as I'm aware, Your Honour, no.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Condon.


13 Q. Now, Colonel Boering, I don't want you to make any comment on what

14 is alleged there in relation to collaboration with members of UNPROFOR. I

15 don't expect you to agree with that. I want your comment on what it says

16 there about the involvement of Mr. Oric and the civilian authorities. You

17 would not dispute that?

18 A. The fact that there was mistrust towards the authorities, towards

19 the leadership, was a fact.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. I'm sorry to stop you so abruptly, Colonel,

21 but I hear that Mr. Borovcanin has got a problem. Speak up, Mr.

22 Borovcanin, please.

23 THE ACCUSED BOROVCANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think

24 these documents are not synchronised, the one in English and the

25 translation. They're not on the same page, I think.

Page 2037

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for pointing that out. I had the

2 suspicion of that, actually, because one is page 2 and the other is page

3 3.

4 MS. CONDON: The B/C/S document is page 3.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I don't know the language. If you -- yes.

6 Stop. Stop there. So we're looking at the first full paragraph on that

7 page after the first three lines.

8 MS. CONDON: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay? All right. Thank you. Thank you for

10 pointing that out. Whenever that happens, please draw our attention

11 straight away. I thank you.

12 Yes. Sorry. Colonel, do you wish us to repeat the question that

13 was put to you, or do you still remember it and would like to proceed with

14 your answer?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try to proceed with my

16 answer.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question whether the mistrust

19 was increasing was unclear in the enclave. I was aware of a very strong,

20 firm leadership about -- and contacts with the opposition was not

21 appreciated. Within the enclave I also experienced this. Whether people

22 gathered wealth and goods, there was a suspicion towards that.

23 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, I'm going to ask the question again

24 simply because in my view it hasn't been answered sufficiently.

25 Q. Colonel Boering, what I asked you was in light of what I read to

Page 2038

1 you in that document, you would not dispute the allegation that the

2 military leadership and the civilian leadership were themselves linked to

3 the black market?

4 A. I suspect that they were linked, but it's not more than a

5 suspicion.

6 Q. Now, you gave some evidence in relation to helicopter flights that

7 were coming into the enclave. You recall that evidence?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Just so there's no dispute about this, the concern in relation to

10 the helicopter flights was because they were a source of bringing -- the

11 ABiH bringing in military hardware, wasn't it?

12 A. There was a suspicion towards that.

13 Q. Yes. And while you yourself didn't see it, that was the source of

14 the concern, wasn't it, that they were bringing in arms? You agree with

15 that?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's answered the question already.


18 Q. And you would agree, Colonel Boering, by the end of DutchBat III's

19 time in the enclave, there was more helicopter activity, wasn't there?

20 A. From the middle of April, May, June, those activities increased.

21 Q. Yes. And you would also agree, wouldn't you, that from May, June,

22 July, 1995, the enclave was becoming increasingly militarised, wasn't it?

23 A. The only change I saw in the demeanour -- the military demeanour

24 of ABiH was that I noticed newer uniforms.

25 Q. So your evidence is that during that period your only observations

Page 2039

1 were new uniforms, but new weapons; is that correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Now, I want to take you to your evidence in relation to the first

4 meeting at the Hotel Fontana on the 11th of July, 1995. Do you recall the

5 evidence you've given in relation to that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Specifically, your evidence was that as to who initiated the

8 meeting, you cannot recall whether or not the initiative had come from the

9 VRS or the DutchBat side; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. And I said that this was discussed in the previous trial.

11 Q. Yes. You -- what you say in this trial, however, is, "I cannot

12 precisely --" this is at page 9, lines 18 to 22, Your Honour. "I cannot

13 precisely indicate whether the initiative had come from the VRS or the

14 DutchBat side. In any case, it was a meeting where we arrived, we were

15 welcomed, and where we were expected. People were expecting us in order

16 to hold the meeting." Is that correct?

17 A. That is what I said, and the word "expect" was related to the --

18 Q. I'll just interrupt you, Colonel --

19 A. The VRS --

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... is that correct?

21 A. I'm explaining what I mean by "expected."

22 Q. But I'm not asking you for an explanation. Please simply listen

23 to the question. The question was: Is that correct?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You were told by Ms. Condon what you testified here

25 on page -- line -- page 9, lines 18 to 22. Basically, the question is the

Page 2040

1 following: Having heard this read out to you, do you stand by it?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.


4 Q. And in your first statement that you made -- this is at page 6,

5 Your Honour, of the witness's first statement?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you be more precise.

7 MS. CONDON: ERN number -- this is 28th of September, 1995. The

8 exhibit number is ID00017.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So could we see it? Therefore, could we have it on

10 the screen, please.

11 MS. CONDON: This is at page 6, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 MS. CONDON: Oh, 1D.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have a hard copy available anyone?

15 MS. CONDON: I think it's just coming up now, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So let's start from here.

17 Colonel, do you remember giving a statement to -- can we go back

18 one page, please? Go back one page. First page. Yes.

19 Can you see the first page, the front cover page of this statement

20 or this document, Colonel?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can see it, and that was 11

22 years ago.


24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I vaguely remember it.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So that was going to be my next question. So he

Page 2041

1 vaguely remembers it. So please go ahead with your questions, Ms. Condon.


3 Q. On page 6 of that statement, in the second paragraph, you said

4 this: "At one point we received a request from Bratunac, from the

5 DutchBat hostages to have a meeting with Mladic in Bratunac."

6 Now, is that correct? Do you agree that's what you said in your

7 first statement?

8 A. I see it written there.

9 Q. Yes. And you agree that that's what -- that's correct? That's

10 what you said in your first statement.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You then went on to say: "He himself had requested a meeting ..."

13 That being -- "he" being General Mladic; is that correct?

14 A. Could you repeat that question, because I can't see it in the

15 text.

16 Q. Okay. The line that begins "He himself had requested a meeting."

17 Can you see that?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: If it assists counsel, I have all of his statements

20 in hard copy. If it assists, I have a binder that has all of the

21 statements in it. I don't think it has --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you so much for that, but we could zoom

23 in the second paragraph on page 6, and actually, we're just referring to

24 one sentence. "He himself had requested a meeting," and it's being

25 suggested this referred to General Mladic, and you're being asked to

Page 2042

1 confirm that this is what you stated in your statement of 1995, whenever

2 it was.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's my statement from 1995, and as

4 far as I can remember, that's how I said it at the time.


6 Q. And what you say now is that that specific memory you had that it

7 was General Mladic that requested the meeting you are not so sure you; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes. Memories fade.

10 Q. Because in effect, Colonel Boering, the fact was that when you

11 arrived at the Hotel Fontana, there was no expectation that it was General

12 Mladic that you were to be meeting, wasn't there?

13 A. There was a meeting, but whether General Mladic would be there,

14 that was something we couldn't expect.

15 Q. Yes, because your lieutenant commander Karremans didn't in fact

16 know that he was speaking to General Mladic, did he? Originally. You're

17 nodding? You agree with that?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: He didn't know that he would be speaking to General

20 Mladic, not that he -- because the way it's in the transcript and the way

21 I heard you state it, it's as if General -- Commander Karremans. He

22 didn't know he was speaking to General Mladic so he didn't know who he

23 was.

24 MS. CONDON: It's both, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So what you meant is that he didn't know beforehand

Page 2043

1 who he would be speaking to.

2 MS. CONDON: I'll break it down.

3 Q. You agree, Colonel Boering, that on your way to Bratunac you had

4 the three of you, yourself, Lieutenant Colonel Karremans, Major Rave, no

5 expectation that you would be meeting with General Mladic. Do you agree

6 with that?

7 A. Yes, I agree with that.

8 Q. And secondly, that you in fact were the only one of the three of

9 you who knew that it was in fact general Mladic who you were speaking to

10 in that meeting originally. Do you agree with that?

11 A. The moment the meeting had already started and I entered later, I

12 saw Lieutenant Colonel Karremans speaking with General Mladic, and at that

13 moment Lieutenant Colonel Karremans had not yet figured out that was

14 General Mladic. I thought it was General Zivanovic for a moment. I knew

15 the latter vaguely, so I checked briefly with my interpreter, Petar, and

16 he said, yes, of course, that's Mladic. And then I communicated to -- I

17 communicated to Lieutenant Colonel Karremans whom he was speaking with.

18 That's what I remember.

19 Q. All right. So it follows from that -- you agree, then, that when

20 you made that statement that it was General Mladic that requested the

21 meeting, that simply cannot be right?

22 Your Honour, I'm not sure if the interpretation is particularly

23 slow, but I have some concerns about the -- perhaps the amount of time

24 that the witness is --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But what you're saying in English is being

Page 2044

1 translated into Dutch.

2 MS. CONDON: I appreciate that, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness is waiting until it is over before

4 he starts answering. And that's how it has been going since he started

5 giving evidence. So we have to be patient. It takes time, I know, but

6 patience is a --

7 MS. CONDON: Virtue, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's correct.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: And he's trying to recall questions to specific

10 events from a very long time ago, so I think counsel should be patient.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other thing you mentioned, I was allowing --

12 giving the witness the opportunity to try and answer your question, I

13 still can't understand how the conclusion that you put to him follows from

14 what we have been hearing.

15 MS. CONDON: Well, perhaps I'll break it down, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, because it says so, it follows from that you

17 agree that when you made that statement.

18 MS. CONDON: Okay.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That it was General Mladic that requested the

20 meeting, that simply cannot be right.

21 MS. CONDON: No, I appreciate what Your Honour is saying. I'll

22 break --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: -- or a radio communication.

24 MS. CONDON: -- conclusion --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: General Mladic would like to see General Karremans.

Page 2045

1 Anyway, rephrase the question --

2 MS. CONDON: I will, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- in whatever way you like, and with the witness

4 I'll not ask him to speed up his answers because I don't know what the

5 problem is.


7 Q. Colonel Boering, when you made that statement in September, 1995,

8 that it was General Mladic requesting the meeting, it follows from that,

9 does it not, that you knew that General Mladic wanted to see DutchBat?

10 A. Based on that question that is rather complex to me, the way I see

11 it now, the invitation was not directed personally by General Mladic that

12 we should stop over, and how that relates this testimony to my testimony

13 in 1995, my memory doesn't go back that far in that respect.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make it clear and stop this here. So let's

15 divide it into two parts.

16 Part one of your statement way back in 1995 is that the request

17 for a meeting did not originate from DutchBat but originated from the

18 Serbian side; is that correct?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what it says, yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And would it be a fair statement to say that your

21 conclusion that it was General Mladic who had summoned that meeting and no

22 one else was because when you ultimately ended up in the Fontana Hotel it

23 was General Mladic that you met and spoke with? Would that be a fair

24 statement? In other words, your conclusion that it was General Mladic did

25 not originate from any hard fact, any telex or radio communication from

Page 2046

1 General Mladic or from someone mentioning General Mladic's name.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I agree were that. I confirm

3 it. Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Tell me this, Colonel Boering: You were in what was known as

7 Section 5; is that right? That was your division in DutchBat? Yes,

8 that's right?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And tell me if I've got this wrong, but the procedure when

11 DutchBat wanted to initiate a meeting with the VRS was that you would use

12 Petar, the interpreter. Is that correct? To arrange the meeting.

13 A. Well, there were various options. Either through Petar or through

14 Yellow Bridge that one of the Serbs would contact one of our posts, or in

15 this case of our soldiers that had been taken prisoner, via radio

16 messages. There were various options.

17 Q. And one of them was to use Petar, is that correct, the

18 interpreter?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Isn't it the case that on the afternoon of the 11th of July, 1995,

21 you were in fact asked by Lieutenant Colonel Karremans to contact Petar

22 and arrange a meeting with the VRS at the Hotel Fontana? Is that correct?

23 A. I don't remember that.

24 Q. All right. Because Lieutenant Colonel Karremans has been asked

25 about this. This is at page 11256 to 11257 in the trial of Jokic --

Page 2047

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I think you know --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Makes me remember Brdjanin.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: The rule on that case and in other cases here is

5 that a fact is put to the witness and the witness answers based on that

6 fact but that witnesses are not pitted against each other. There's no

7 need to say where -- that you're contradicting another witness, and my

8 motion would be just that the statement is put to the witness and then

9 asked if it's correct or not.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the procedure here, Ms. Condon, so it's easy.

11 You just rephrase your question without referring to any particular

12 witness, especially in this case, who happens to be his superior at the

13 time.


15 Q. Colonel Boering, if there were evidence to the effect that you

16 were asked to organise that meeting through Petar the interpreter on this

17 afternoon, would you agree or disagree with that?

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, again, "if there were evidence." I think

19 just the proposition should be put.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't find -- I don't -- I don't think the

21 question as such is objectionable. We can proceed. Please answer that

22 question.


24 Q. Shall I perhaps repeat the question, Colonel Boering?

25 A. [In English] Yes, please.

Page 2048

1 Q. If there were evidence to the effect that you were asked to

2 organise the meeting on the 11th of July, 1995, at Bratunac through Petar

3 the interpreter, would you agree or disagree with that?

4 A. [Interpretation] If there's evidence, then that's evidence. We

5 were in touch with Petar repeatedly during that period about various

6 meetings, but regarding this specific case, no, I don't remember.

7 Q. Perhaps we should just establish from the outset, Colonel Boering.

8 Your evidence has been that you missed perhaps the initial part of the

9 first meeting at the Hotel Fontana; is that correct?

10 A. I missed the first little part of the meeting at Hotel Fontana.

11 Q. Yes. Now -- however, insofar as what we watched on the video in

12 this court, you were present for the entire part of what we saw on the

13 video; is that correct?

14 A. I really do remember that I wasn't present at the first part, so

15 relating that to the video, then it's not a complete recording.

16 Q. No, no, no. That wasn't my question.

17 A. But that is my statement.

18 Q. No, no. My question was quite simple. In terms of what we saw on

19 the video in this court, were you present for what we saw on the video;

20 yes or no?

21 A. I don't understand your question.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me. It's being put to you that when we saw the

23 video relating to the first Bratunac Hotel Fontana meeting, it seems that

24 from beginning to the end of what we saw in that video you were present.

25 So you are asked to either confirm -- you're asked to explain why this is

Page 2049

1 so if you, according to yourself, were not present for the initial part of

2 the meeting? Do you have an explanation why the video shows you present

3 throughout?

4 There's a very simple answer to this question.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the video recording starts at a

6 certain point, yes, I'm there at that point. And if the meeting started

7 before that, then that's not on the video. I'm firmly convinced of that.


9 Q. All right. And I appreciate that you've chosen to have an

10 interpreter in Dutch today, but you wouldn't dispute the fact that you're

11 fluent in English?

12 MR. NICHOLLS: He's answered that.


14 MS. CONDON: All right.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered that yesterday or the day before.

16 MS. CONDON: All right.

17 Q. I'll be more specific --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Although he didn't acknowledge he's fluent. He

19 has -- he's got sufficient knowledge of English to make him understand.


21 Q. Yes. Insofar as the communications between the interpreter and --

22 I should say between General Mladic to the interpreter were concerned in

23 English, you understood the communications between those two insofar as

24 the interpreter was speaking in English?

25 A. To the extent that I could hear what the interpreter was telling

Page 2050

1 Lieutenant Colonel Karremans.

2 Q. And you say that that was largely because of where you were

3 positioned during the meeting at the Hotel Fontana; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Insofar as your memory as to what was said, do you recall General

6 Mladic saying to Lieutenant Colonel Karremans, "What do you want? You

7 asked for a meeting. Speak up."

8 A. Yes. He could have said something like that.

9 Q. Well --

10 A. General Mladic was rather annoyed.

11 Q. All right.

12 MS. CONDON: Perhaps, Your Honour, if the witness could be shown

13 P02048, at page 19 of that document. This is the transcript of the video

14 that we've seen at the Hotel Fontana. And unfortunately I don't have a

15 line reference, Your Honour, as to where the conversation begins.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] -- we could actually refer

17 to the video itself if the segment could be identified.

18 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, I'd prefer to actually take the witness

19 to the transcript rather than show the video again.

20 Q. At the middle of -- at the middle of page 19 there is a -- where

21 it begins with General Mladic speaking. Yes?

22 Now, you have it in B/C/S on your left. You should it in English

23 on your right.

24 A. No, I don't see any English yet.

25 Q. No, it's all right, Colonel Boering. Neither do I. Right. You

Page 2051

1 see that now in English --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- Colonel Boering? Once again you see that in fact it's in

4 bold. "What do you want? You asked for a meeting. Speak up." I'll ask

5 you again because your answer was he could have said that, but you see

6 there that according to the transcript he did say that. Do you agree with

7 that?

8 A. It says that in the transcript.

9 Q. Does that assist your memory at all in terms of the question of

10 DutchBat initiating this meeting?

11 A. No, it does not.

12 Q. That doesn't -- isn't something that perhaps jogs your memory in

13 any way that you might accept that it in fact was DutchBat that initiated

14 the first meeting at Hotel Fontana?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Despite what it says there in the transcript? I'll move on, Your

17 Honour.

18 A. I see it.

19 Q. Further down Lieutenant Colonel Karremans then goes on to convey

20 this: Firstly, that he'd spoken to -- he had a talk to General Nikolai

21 two hours ago. Now, I think you were asked about this in your evidence

22 in-chief. General Nikolai was the Chief of Staff at the Sarajevo

23 headquarters; is that correct?

24 A. General Nikolai's specific role is not rock solid in my memory at

25 this time, but he was in Sarajevo and he was our liaison.

Page 2052

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One second. Madam Fauveau.

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the page in B/C/S does

3 not tally with the English page.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So I can't help you much. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Tell

5 us now. Yes, of course. I fully understand. I wouldn't be able to

6 notice that. That's why I told the accused earlier on if it doesn't

7 tally, let us know. It still doesn't tally according to you, Mr.

8 Borovcanin?

9 Yes. Can we go back to the previous page in B/C/S, towards the

10 bottom of it, please? Yes. At the end. No. No. No, it's not.

11 I can't -- I can't help you because I don't understand the

12 language. So someone needs to help us there if you insist on seeing

13 the -- because I thought that basically you had finished your series of

14 questions on this. Yes.

15 JUDGE KWON: Can I suggest to proceed because the accused can

16 follow through the interpretation, because you read out the passage and it

17 will be interpreted for the moment.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.

19 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, I still do have some more questions in

20 relation to this page that we are referring to. I just point out --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: If somebody gives me a hard copy I'll give you the

22 correct page. I mean, if somebody has a hard copy of this statement in

23 B/C/S I will tell you exactly where it is, but in the meantime, please

24 proceed.

25 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2053

1 Q. The third aspect of what Lieutenant Colonel Karremans specifically

2 says to General Mladic is that he'd been ordered by BH command to take

3 care of the refugees. You recall him conveying that to General Mladic?

4 A. At this time upon reading it I can imagine that he said it, but

5 it's not -- it's not etched in my memory that he did indeed say that.

6 Q. But you accept that it's on the transcript and that was said?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you also accept, then, that it was also said that he was there

9 at the request of the BH command to negotiate or ask for the withdrawal of

10 the battalion. That's obviously DutchBat; is that correct?

11 A. Those are the words of Lieutenant Colonel Karremans.

12 Q. But he was also there to negotiate or ask for the withdrawal of

13 the refugees. You agree with that, that that's what it says there?

14 A. Yes. It says that.

15 Q. And you also may recall that there was a reference to General

16 Janvier. Do you recall that?

17 A. I read it, but a true memory, no.

18 Q. All right. But you accept that -- it appears at page 26, Your

19 Honour.

20 You accept that when the transcript says, "That's why General

21 Nikolai asked me or more by General Janvier and he received orders from

22 General Janvier," you accept that's what on the transcript?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need a witness to confirm to us what's in a

24 transcript? The transcript is the transcript. It speaks for itself. So

25 if you want to ask him about the contents, you can ask him about the

Page 2054

1 contents, but still don't stay repeating the same question all the time,

2 do you accept this is what the transcript says? Do you accept that this

3 is in the transcript? It's there. We can see it.

4 MS. CONDON: I appreciate that, Your Honour, but the witness did

5 initially -- didn't give that concession. He said it could have been said

6 without me showing him the transcript.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question was: Is it in the transcript? And

8 the answer, I don't think I need Colonel Boering to deal me whether it's

9 in the transcript or not. I can look at the transcript and I can see it

10 for myself.


12 Q. Well, who to your knowledge, Colonel Boering, who was General

13 Janvier?

14 A. In Zagreb. A commander.

15 Q. Were you, prior to attending at the Hotel Fontana, were you in

16 fact aware that there had been any communication between Lieutenant

17 Colonel Karremans and General Nikolai?

18 A. I was aware that Lieutenant Colonel Karremans was in touch with

19 several of the powers that were, but with who and the substance of those

20 communications, I don't remember that.

21 Q. Well, I appreciate you wouldn't know what the substance of those

22 communications were. Were you aware that a fax had been received on -- at

23 6.00 -- 1842, so about a quarter to 7.00 at DutchBat from the headquarters

24 at Sarajevo?

25 Perhaps without -- without answering that, perhaps, if the witness

Page 2055

1 could be shown, Your Honour, 1D00026.

2 Now, you'll see that the first page of this was a Rule 70 document

3 originally, Your Honour, but it's been -- was on the EDS, so it's a

4 document that's been disclosed by the Prosecution.

5 The first page I don't need you to look at. The second page is

6 what I want you to look at. All right. Can you see that there, Colonel

7 Boering, in front of you?

8 A. Yes, I see it.

9 Q. Have you seen this document before?

10 A. One moment, please. It's possible, but I don't remember this.

11 Q. All right. But you can see that if we go through it it is dated

12 the 11th of July, 1995, and it appears to have the time 18.27 around -- do

13 you see that at the top corner? The top right-hand corner.

14 A. In the upper left-hand corner I see the moment it arrived which

15 was at 0340 in the morning, so it took longer for a fax to reach DutchBat.

16 The moment something is signed isn't necessarily the moment it arrives.

17 Q. I'm going to interrupt -- Colonel Boering --

18 A. I'm explaining when the fax arrived at DutchBat and if you look at

19 the very top you see a date July 1995 followed by a time of the arrival at

20 DutchBat. That means that was when the fax arrived and was printed out.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] -- there will be a lot of

22 confusion. It is activated. My microphone is switched on, but maybe I

23 was keeping away from it.

24 All right. Let's proceed. Your next question, Ms. Condon,

25 please.

Page 2056

1 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Colonel Boering, I wasn't asking you for your opinion as to when

3 this fax arrived at DutchBat, simply that it has a date on it, the 11th of

4 July, 1995. There is a time in the right corner, 18.27B. Do you see

5 that?

6 A. Uh-huh.

7 Q. That it is from acting commander Gobillard. Do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the subject matter is orders for defence of DutchBat and

10 protection of refugees in Srebrenica. Do you see that?

11 A. Yes, I see that.

12 Q. Then there are a number points that are described in the document,

13 and at the very bottom of the document you'll see, and it is upside down,

14 but there is a line, and at the very bottom left-hand corner - thank you -

15 the 11th of July, 1995, 18.42. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then at the top, as you say, it is -- the date is -- this is

18 again at the top of the document, normally the date is obscured, but it

19 has July, 1995, 03.40, comcen DutchBat. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And as you read that, your understanding is that indicates the

22 time at which this document was received at DutchBat; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's what I assume. And the bottom side has another time,

24 but here you see comcen DutchBat, which indicates the time the document

25 arrived. Where at the lower side of the page I do not see this added.

Page 2057

1 But I'm not 100 per cent sure of that.

2 Q. So it is in fact possible from reading the document, is it not,

3 that the bottom inscription of the 11th of July, 1995, 18.42, could

4 indicate the time at which the fax came in to DutchBat?

5 A. What I can recall is that contacts with faxes was very difficult.

6 Printing faxes was difficult, and that it used to take a very long time

7 before faxes would come in and be printed out. That's the only thing I

8 can recall. So there may have been a delay somewhere in the chain.

9 Q. But --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a moment. This seems to be page 4, according

11 to the communication record, the very first top line -- the first line on

12 the top. Can I see again the one on the bottom, please.

13 All right. Now, this is part of a larger document. Could we see

14 the previous page of this document if it is part of this document.

15 So this is where this document starts, and the next page is the

16 fax -- or the fax that we've seen. And is there another page --

17 MS. CONDON: There is, Your Honour, but, Your Honour, there are

18 two pages that are attached to the first page that we are looking at, and

19 I was obviously going to take the witness to those pages because that's

20 the significance of what I say about when the fax arrived.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So I was trying to see clearer in this, but I

22 don't know what to make out of it. Yes, Ms. Condon.


24 Q. Would you accept, Colonel Boering, that the way in which this

25 message reads is akin to an order to the recipient, being the commander of

Page 2058

1 DutchBat?

2 A. Yes, it is an order, an instruction.

3 Q. Okay. And in fact, you -- I mean, you have been cross-examined

4 about this document before. You can recall that?

5 A. I cannot remember that.

6 Q. I'm not sure how Mr. Karnavas would feel about that, but when you

7 were asked those questions, you were asked -- this is at page 984, Your

8 Honour, of Jokic, that you described them as instructions which we

9 received for our information. This is at lines 22 to 25. But you had a

10 specific recollection that Lieutenant Colonel Karremans telephoned Tuzla

11 about this document.

12 A. In those proceedings this has been discussed, but I do not have it

13 that precisely or clearly in my mind.

14 Q. But I can put the specific question and answer to you if you want

15 me to, Colonel Boering, but do you accept that in the past you have said

16 that you recall Lieutenant Colonel Karremans telephoning Tuzla about this

17 document that we're looking at?

18 A. If I made that statement in the past, then obviously this is the

19 case.

20 Q. So if you go, then, to page -- the next page of the document,

21 which will be page 2. Now, if you blow this up. This is in fact the

22 document that we saw yesterday. You recall that?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. That's the letter from Lieutenant Colonel Karremans to the various

25 authorities. Now, at the top of this document you'll see that again the

Page 2059

1 date is obscured, and it has the time 03.35, comcen DutchBat. Do you see

2 that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And then this document is identified with a number at the top,

5 1561750. Do you see that?

6 A. I don't see a document number.

7 Q. It's all right. Don't worry.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The very first line which is the communication data.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, okay.

10 MS. CONDON: And then --

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I hate to interrupt. If it helps my friend we have

12 another copy of the same document which was disclosed. It does have an

13 ERN and it does shows the date in the top left-hand corner if my friend

14 would like to see it.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Does it also have the handwriting and the markings?

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, it appears to. But I'm afraid the copy I have

17 has a lot of my notes on it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What date does it show, the top left?

19 MR. NICHOLLS: It says 12 July, 1995.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


22 Q. And then you'll see the final page, the next page, again same

23 thing. It's the second page of Colonel Karremans' letter. It has 3.38,

24 comcen DutchBat, page 3.

25 A. Uh-huh.

Page 2060

1 Q. Now, these three pages all have, as you can see, Colonel Boering,

2 that same heading at the top with the date obscured but beginning with

3 3.40. You say we know 12th of July, 1995, 03.40. Does that suggest to

4 you that that was a faxed -- that was a document that was faxed in the

5 early hours of the morning? An outgoing fax, not an incoming fax?

6 A. I suspect looking at the document that it concerns an outgoing

7 fax.

8 Q. Right. So in fact, when we go back to the first document, the HQ

9 UNPROFOR Sarajevo document, that when you're reading from the top line of

10 that, the information data on there is reflecting not an incoming fax but

11 an outgoing fax. Do you agree with that?

12 A. That's what it would seem like, yes.

13 Q. Okay. So -- so that we have this clear, it is not the case that

14 the order from acting commander Gobillard was received on the 12th of

15 July, 1995, at 03.40.

16 A. And this certainly would not lead to me concluding as such.

17 Q. But as you've said, you yourself weren't aware from Lieutenant

18 Colonel Karremans of any specific order that he received prior to the

19 meeting at Hotel Fontana? You agree with that? You yourself didn't know

20 that?

21 A. No, I would not remember that.

22 Q. But if you accept from this document if it was in fact received on

23 the 11th of July, 1995, at 18.42 into the DutchBat headquarters, that from

24 this document Lieutenant Colonel Karremans did in fact have orders prior

25 to the first meeting at Hotel Fontana?

Page 2061

1 A. If this fax arrived to DutchBat and was read by commander

2 Karremans before the meeting, then this would be the case, but I had no

3 confirmation whether the fax had come in and whether he had read it.

4 Q. Now, I want to ask you about your role in choosing the civil

5 representative. Now, what you say is that you knew Nesib Mandic; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You described him as somebody that you were relatively often in

9 touch with; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But you also have made it clear that he wasn't somebody you

12 considered to be a community leader; is that correct?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. But you've also agreed that in your role as a liaison officer it

15 was primarily civil and community leaders that you did in fact have

16 contact with; is that correct?

17 A. That is correct. However, besides my work, I also had to

18 coordinate civilian projects, and it was part of my job to have contacts

19 with people of the civil community. I was, for instance, in contact with

20 the heads of several schools, and I would visit these schools personally.

21 He was the director of one of the schools. And in my capacity, I was in

22 regular contact with him.

23 Q. Now, what happened was that in between the second and the third

24 meeting you sought to find further representatives; is that correct?

25 A. The desire of General Mladic is to have more representatives.

Page 2062

1 That is correct. And DutchBat worked on this. That is correct as well.

2 Q. And -- sorry.

3 A. As to my personally -- as to me personally, I didn't walk or drive

4 around trying to find additional people.

5 Q. Now, there was also an attempt by some of the civil

6 representatives back at DutchBat headquarters to make contact with the

7 Bosnian government authorities, wasn't there, in Sarajevo?

8 A. I cannot remember that at this point in time.

9 Q. Well, you had a specific recollection in your first statement --

10 Your Honour, the first statement --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MS. CONDON: This is the first statement of the 28th of September,

13 1995. 1D00017, at page 7.

14 Q. The fifth paragraph where it reads: "We left again about half an

15 hour later. At the compound our spokesman found two other people to act

16 as spokespersons, a man and a woman. Next morning these spokespersons

17 attempted to contact the government in Sarajevo, but without success."

18 That's what you said in your first statement, Colonel Boering; is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 A. Yes. We have been working on establishing contacts. I myself

23 also tried to establish contacts with Tuzla. So there have been attempts

24 to make telephone communications both in the night and in the following

25 morning.

Page 2063

1 Q. But what your evidence is is that -- you say that those attempts

2 were unsuccessful; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. At least for as much as I am concerned personally. And I

4 cannot say whether those two individuals have been successful in

5 establishing contacts. I don't know how it is exactly worded in the

6 statement, but I can't remember that.

7 Q. You can't remember them being successful in terms of making

8 contact. That's what you're saying; is that right?

9 A. Yes. I can not remember the outcome, the result of that telephone

10 communications.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, could the witness be shown 1D00024, at

13 page 2.

14 Q. Now, in that second paragraph -- I'll read it to you. And Your

15 Honour can see that I'm reading from the national institute Dutch -- the

16 Dutch government report on Srebrenica. That's identifying the document.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree with that description of the document,

18 Mr. Nicholls?

19 MR. NICHOLLS: I take counsel's word for that.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.


22 Q. Where it reads: "Although an accurate reconstruction is made

23 difficult because of the usual problems of conflicting memories, the

24 possibility emerges that one or more committee members also tried to get

25 instructions from either Sarajevo or Tuzla. Both Omanovic and Mandzic

Page 2064

1 later referred to such attempts. The notes in Rave's notebook of those

2 days refer to a telephone conversation with Muratovic, the minister who

3 was responsible for the relations with the United Nations, and the request

4 for instructions from him, President Izetbegovic and Prime Minister

5 Silajdzic. Mandzic later told intelligence officers of the 2nd Corps of

6 the ABiH that he had had contact with Silajdzic at about 10.00 hours on

7 July 12."

8 A. Uh-huh.

9 Q. What time was the final meeting on the 12th of July at the Hotel

10 Fontana, Colonel Boering?

11 A. That was around 10.00. In the morning.

12 Q. So that in fact would seem to suggest that --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


15 Q. -- that there had at least been some conversation between Nesib

16 Mandzic and a member of the BiH government -- oh, sorry, I'll withdraw

17 that. Intelligence officers of the 2nd Corps of the ABiH prior to the

18 final meeting. Do you agree with that?

19 A. As it's described here, I don't have any perception of it.

20 Q. Now, I want to take you to your evidence in relation to the

21 military strength of the 28th Division of the ABiH.

22 MS. CONDON: And if the witness could be shown, Your Honour, ID

23 00020. This is at page 2 of that document. And I should just indicate,

24 Your Honour, this is a document, a UNMO document. The author of it is an

25 UNMO, right? And it is a postscript to the -- it's entitled "Postscript

Page 2065

1 to events of Srebrenica." Just further down that document. That's it.

2 Q. Just so your evidence is clear, what you say is that the 28th

3 Division of the ABiH had no more than a thousand members; is that correct?

4 A. I'm referring to a nucleus of well-trained soldiers.

5 Q. Yes. But you've based that estimate before, haven't you, on

6 whether or not the member concerned had a new weapon or a new uniform?

7 You agree with that? That's the criteria you've used in the past?

8 A. You're not alone in a battalion. There's also somebody from

9 intelligence, and that person provides the information and analyses it.

10 Q. I'm sorry, Colonel Boering. I'm not sure how that's a response to

11 my question.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: I might have missed it, but was there a -- is there

14 a reference to his testimony that he's given in this trial about the

15 military strength that --

16 MS. CONDON: I'll give it.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know what this is relating to that he said

18 here. That's a little unclear.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it he's simply being asked questions about

20 the military strength of ABiH. I haven't heard so far any cross-reference

21 to anything else except what is -- appears on this document.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: It's just that she said, "I'll take you to your

23 evidence in relation to the military strength," and I wasn't sure where

24 that -- where that was.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: There you have a right to ask for clarification.

Page 2066


2 Q. What you said in this trial on page 57, lines 3 to 4, was that the

3 weaponry that the ABiH had had were outdated. The 19th of September.

4 A. Is that a question?

5 Q. Yes. I'm reminding you of your previous evidence, Colonel

6 Boering, that in this court, what you've said is that the weaponry that

7 the ABiH had was outdated. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. And that they did not have state-of-the-art military

10 equipment. These are your words.

11 A. Yes, it's possible.

12 Q. Well, I'm repeating your evidence back to you, Colonel Boering.

13 It's not a question of whether or not it's possible. What you said on the

14 19th of September, 2006, at lines 1 to 4, 57 -- page 57, you were

15 asked: "If you can be a little more specific what types of weapons you're

16 referring to if you can be." Answer: "Machine-guns, rifles, handguns,

17 they were often relatively outdated, not ordinarily state-of-the-art

18 military equipment." Now, is that true? Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, I said that.

20 Q. And as far as you're aware, that's a correct assessment of the

21 state of the 28th Division's military strength?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So, if there were evidence to the effect that in April or May the

24 28th Division had new uniforms and Kalashnikovs that looked brand new, you

25 would not agree with that?

Page 2067

1 A. No. Those are firearms and uniforms. I mentioned the uniforms

2 and some small arms, but that's about it.

3 Q. Yes, but my specific question to you is that if there were

4 evidence that in April and May the 28th Division had new, brand new

5 Kalashnikov rifles, you would disagree with that?

6 A. Certainly.

7 Q. You certainly would. All right. Now, just having a look at the

8 document that's in front of you where it says under the heading "ABiH,"

9 and you can see there that it is written: "Not known, however the usual

10 estimate of 10 per cent of population would give a force of approximately

11 4.000." Do you see that there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You would, I suspect, too, disagree with that assessment?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Just ask him whether he agrees or he doesn't,

15 because the way you phrased it is --

16 MS. CONDON: Yes, my pleasure, Your Honour.

17 Q. Shall I ask it again, Colonel Boering?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. Yes, you would like me to ask the question again, or -- yes?

20 A. Yes, please.

21 Q. Where it says: "ABiH. Not known, however the usual estimate of

22 10 per cent of the population would give a force of approximately 4.000,"

23 do you agree or disagree with that assessment?

24 A. I don't know in which context this should be placed. The

25 estimate, I mean. I would assume a good thousand troops that are the

Page 2068

1 nucleus. And where you get that 10 per cent as the usual estimate, I

2 don't know. You'd have to ask him.

3 Q. Yes, but this is document that's been -- Your Honour, I see the

4 time, and I can indicate that I will certainly have no more than 15

5 minutes after the break. Once I've concluded with this topic I have one

6 other and that's it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a break now, 25 minutes. Thank you.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I recognise Mr. Nicholls.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I just wanted to put on the record the document

12 where I read the date 12 July from is number 531 is exactly the same

13 document.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry. The document I read the date 12 July from

16 is 65 ter number 531 is actually the same document that I used in my

17 direct examination.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Nicholls, for that

19 information.

20 Ms. Condon.

21 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Colonel Boering, I was asking you about that document that you

23 have there in front of you. I want to -- you to have a look at page A-2

24 of that document. That's how it reads on the original document. I hope

25 that assists the court ushers.

Page 2069

1 A. It's there. I've seen it.

2 Q. Just at the bottom. You'll see there's a reference to 9 July

3 1995. And just before I take you to the content of that paragraph, you

4 recall that on the 9th of July, 1995, you had two meetings that day.

5 A. Meetings with the ABiH, is that what you mean?

6 Q. Yes. You had a meeting in the morning with Ramiz Becirevic, the

7 leader of the 28th Division, and then a further meeting with Osman Suljic.

8 Do you recall that?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you suggesting that he personally met with these

10 two persons?

11 MS. CONDON: Yes, Your Honour.


13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I remember that.


15 Q. Now, just in relation to that first meeting with the military,

16 there was a fairly tense situation, wasn't there, for DutchBat in

17 withdrawing, because you were being fired on by the ABiH in the

18 withdrawal?

19 A. Whether we were being fired at I don't know, but there were

20 tensions between the ABiH and DutchBat.

21 Q. Well, you already gave evidence about the fact that Private Rensen

22 died. You recall that?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And wasn't it the case that OP H, that's the one -- the

25 observation post closest -- closest to the town of Srebrenica was actually

Page 2070

1 attacked at one point by the BiH?

2 A. I don't remember that last bit. I do remember that there was a

3 post where one of our vehicles was prevented from moving any more under --

4 under threat by the RPG, and I spoke to the mayor, and after that the

5 vehicle was able to move on. So there was tension and there were threats,

6 but I did not personally see an exchange of fire or anything similar to

7 that.

8 Q. All right. Now, you're familiar with the UNMO situation reports

9 that would be sent out from Srebrenica?

10 A. Sometimes I was. Sometimes I was not. They have their own

11 reporting lines.

12 Q. Wouldn't it be fair to say, would it not, that much of the

13 information or some, at least, of the information from these reports would

14 come from DutchBat?

15 A. A combination of data from themselves and from us. Generally they

16 reported -- they submitted their own reports and DutchBat submitted its

17 own reports.

18 Q. Just going back to the meeting of the 9th of July. Would you

19 accept that in the course of that meeting that you had -- DutchBat had

20 made a request that the BiH would not hinder any of their withdrawal

21 movements? This is DutchBat's withdrawal movements.

22 A. DutchBat did indeed request freedom of movement to operate, not

23 only to withdraw but also to advance freedom of movement.

24 Q. But you'll see there in that document you have in front of you the

25 meeting is described like this: "In a meeting between DutchBat, Ramiz --"

Page 2071

1 sorry. "In a meeting between DutchBat, Ramiz and Osman involve mutual

2 recriminations ..." Do you accept that's what happened in the meeting?

3 A. Yes. There was suspicion and mistrust.

4 Q. DutchBat LO, is that you, liaison officer?

5 A. Whether I was alone at the DutchBat meeting, I don't know. But it

6 could indeed be a reference to me.

7 Q. But we've established it's you. You accept that you were present

8 at this meeting on the 9th of July?

9 A. Yes, I was.

10 Q. So: "DutchBat LO accused Ramiz of ordering his troops to remove

11 the weapons in the custody of B Coy." B Company. Do you see that?

12 A. Yes, but I don't remember saying that.

13 Q. But you accept that that's how the meeting is represented there?

14 A. I don't remember this coming up with Ramiz. I suspect that we

15 addressed a weapon collection point and that the Bravo Company wanted

16 those weapons. I believe that that is an inaccurate reflection of the

17 meeting. Ramiz repeatedly asked for the arms from the weapons collection

18 point. I don't believe he ever wanted or demanded our arms.

19 Q. All right. So when -- what about where it says there: "Ramiz,

20 however, stated that he'd been ordered to demand the return of these

21 weapons and those of the Dutch but had not bothered as he anticipated the

22 Dutch response." Do you agree with that?

23 A. Question?

24 Q. I just put the question. Where it says Ramiz stated that he had

25 been ordered to demand the return of these weapons and those of the Dutch

Page 2072

1 but had not bothered as he had anticipated the Dutch response, is that

2 true? Is that what happened in the meeting? Did Ramiz make that

3 statement?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's answered the question in as far as it's

5 related to Bosnian Muslim weapons proper, yes. As regards DutchBat

6 weapons, never. This is his answer.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: I agree, Your Honour, and just the question I don't

8 think is completely fair as to whether he made what statement because as I

9 read it, Ramiz, he didn't bother to make the statement.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But from the document you can also read it that he

11 never bothered to ask for the return of their own weapons, of the Bosnian

12 Muslim weapons, and that's not what the witness stated.


14 Q. All right. Could the witness be shown P00500, Your Honour. This

15 is a situation report dated the 9th of July. Or the heading is the 9th of

16 July, 1995. Yes. And the second page. That's the page. Yes, sorry.

17 The next page after that. And just further down. That's it.

18 Now, what you say is that you had no awareness of the ABiH firing

19 upon any of the observation posts of DutchBat; is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Have a read, please, of the paragraph that begins: "Update

22 082059B July '95. Report from DutchBat indicates that their OPs U and S

23 are under attack by the BSA. And to make matters worse, they are also

24 being prevented by the BiH from leaving these areas." Does this accord

25 with what you understood the situation to be at the time, Colonel Boering?

Page 2073

1 A. I'm trying to reflect on this in its proper context. You asked

2 me -- in the English text I read "BSA attack on DutchBat."

3 Q. If you're reading that, that's incorrect.

4 A. Well, based -- based on your question, I'm inferring OP -- "and to

5 make matters worse, they are also being prevented by the BiH situation at

6 this time." Is that your question?

7 Q. Yes, "while OPs U and S were being attacked bit BSA, and to make

8 matters worse, they are also being prevented by the BiH from leaving these

9 areas." "They" being DutchBat. Now, does that accord with the situation

10 as you understood it at the time?

11 A. As I mentioned earlier here this morning, tensions existed

12 regarding the freedom of movement, and in one case I went there myself to

13 try to arrange such freedom of movement. So, yes, there was an

14 unwillingness on the part of the BiH to allow us freedom of movement, and

15 that made it difficult for us to operate.

16 Q. But you will agree there is a clear difference, is there not,

17 between restrictions on freedom of movement and being fired upon. That's

18 obvious.

19 A. Again, I mentioned earlier that I don't remember the BiH firing at

20 us.

21 Q. All right. Perhaps if you can have a look at ii of that document

22 where it says: "DutchBat OP H is being fired upon by the BiH." Do you

23 see that?

24 A. I see what it says there.

25 Q. But you would say that doesn't accord with your recollection of

Page 2074

1 the events at that time?

2 A. I did not see that.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. And as you can see in the text, Ramiz mentions that this did not

5 happen at his orders.

6 Q. Were you at B Company on the 8th of July, 1995?

7 A. Yes. Around the 8th or the 9th I was with the Bravo Company.

8 Q. But do you have any recollection of the BiH blocking the compound

9 of B Company at this time?

10 A. Well, I walked out of the gate several times towards the PTT

11 building, so I did not see a blockade there. I did see a huge number of

12 refugees in front of the gate.

13 Q. But you see there it says on that document at i that "they were

14 out just blocking the compound of B Company". Do you see that there?

15 A. I see where it says that, but I did not witness that with my own

16 eyes, and I don't remember a lot of UN observers walking around the city

17 at that time. So I don't know what they base this statement on. You'd

18 need to ask them.

19 Q. You're not suggesting, are you, that the information that's

20 contained in the UNMO situation reports is unreliable? You're not

21 suggesting that?

22 A. No, I'm not saying that.

23 Q. You would just say that the information that is contained here

24 doesn't reflect your observations on the 8th of July, 1995, at B Company.

25 A. Because I walked around there myself several times.

Page 2075

1 Q. Uh-huh.

2 A. And when I walked around there, I did not see any UN observers.

3 Q. What about BiH armed soldiers on the 8th of July? Did you see any

4 of them walking around B Company? You would have noticed them, I presume.

5 A. Well, the question is what a BiH armed soldier is. To give you an

6 example, the mayor up to that point had no involvement with the army at

7 all to his own indication. I saw him at a certain point, and he was

8 wearing a uniform and he was armed.

9 Q. All right. Well, perhaps if we go to the next page of this

10 document and we can ascertain what a -- the description "armed soldier"

11 means, because you'll see there at the top of the page it says: "Update

12 0821408B July 95. Below is information received from DutchBat concerning

13 our last update ..." So you would agree that this makes it fairly clear

14 that this is information coming from DutchBat.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't mean to say, Ms. Condon, that every

16 information coming from DutchBat necessarily was something that he

17 personally was aware of.

18 MS. CONDON: Personally was aware of.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- was personally aware of. So perhaps you could

20 address any questions as to his personal knowledge, please, feel free to

21 do so, but don't attribute to him a universal knowledge of DutchBat

22 acquired information.


24 Q. You see the second Roman numeral: "The situation at B Company is

25 also stable but a little tense. There are about 30 BiH armed soldiers and

Page 2076

1 a lot of civilians walking around the compound."

2 Now, did you see that?

3 A. I don't remember those figures, but there were armed soldiers

4 walking around the compound, but I walked around there freely and did not

5 feel threatened.

6 Q. Colonel Boering, I didn't ask you if you felt threatened. We'll

7 move on to a meeting that you attended on the 10th of July, 1995, with

8 Lieutenant Colonel Karremans. That was a meeting that was held in the

9 evening; is that correct?

10 A. If you're referring to the meeting with the BiH in the PTT

11 building at which the mayor was also present.

12 Q. Yes, I am.

13 A. Yes, that meeting took place.

14 Q. Do you have any recollection of at the time of that meeting seeing

15 about 1.000 to 1.500 combatants in town at the time?

16 A. No, I don't remember that.

17 Q. Now, I'm going to take you back to your movements after the final

18 meeting at the Hotel Fontana on the 12th of July, 1995. Your evidence is

19 that after that final meeting you returned to Bratunac to get a clearer

20 picture of what had been agreed upon. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, I remember that.

22 Q. And in particular, you wanted to -- you and Major Rave went back

23 to knock out some details in particular in relation to the question of

24 fuel; is that correct?

25 A. I don't believe Major Rave came along. It was primarily about

Page 2077

1 fuel and the general transport plan.

2 Q. All right. If at -- again, in your second statement -- Your

3 Honour, this is the statement dated the -- it's sworn on the 10th of

4 February, 1998, number 1D00018.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it a sworn statement, this one?

6 MS. CONDON: Or perhaps I shouldn't use the word "sworn." It's

7 what I'm used to. Perhaps "affirmed" is a better expression.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's just that it would be the first sworn statement

9 that I have come across in five years.

10 MS. CONDON: Just force of habit, Your Honour.

11 Q. All right. Now, at page 10 of that statement, the second

12 paragraph. You have that in front of you that you can read it, sir? You

13 said this: "At about 1300 hours, I together with Sergeant Major Rave,

14 returned to Bratunac to solve the issue of fuel for buses with the Serbs."

15 Now, is that what you said during your second statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, I'll ask you this. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. You then went on to say you spoke to Major Nikolic. "He informed

20 me that buses were on the way and that we had better find fuel for them."

21 Is that correct?

22 A. Yes. If that's how it reads, then that's how it reads.

23 Q. Now -- I'll ask you this. Was there an agreement between the

24 DutchBat and General Mladic that DutchBat would supply diesel fuel for the

25 evacuation? Was there that agreement?

Page 2078

1 A. I know that the request came from General Mladic, but I don't know

2 whether such an agreement was made.

3 Q. So that again if there were evidence to the effect that the

4 agreement was that DutchBat and Mladic -- that the UN would supply diesel

5 fuel for the evacuation, you wouldn't necessarily agree with that?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: He already answered the question. He said he

7 doesn't know whether such agreement -- and 100 other persons might assert

8 that, but he's not a position to confirm or deny it.

9 MS. CONDON: I'll move on, Your Honour.

10 Q. When you returned from Bratunac to Potocari -- you said that you

11 made observations in relation to buses and trucks heading back towards

12 Potocari; is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And you yourself were part physically of that first convoy out of

15 Potocari; is that correct?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. This was a journey that went on for -- how long did it take you to

18 get from Potocari to the ultimate destination? How many hours?

19 A. What do you mean by "final destination"?

20 Q. What is your estimation of how many kilometres you travelled from

21 Potocari to the point where you concluded -- where the refugees were taken

22 off the buses at the final point? How many kilometres was that?

23 A. Perhaps 50 or 80 kilometres.

24 Q. All right. And so you would agree with 10 buses, I think your

25 evidence was, and 6 trucks, a considerable amount of fuel would have been

Page 2079

1 required at least for that journey. Would you agree with that?

2 A. It depends on how you define a considerable amount.

3 Q. That's true. Are you able to give any evidence at all as to where

4 the fuel came from for that first convoy?

5 A. I can't state anything about that.

6 Q. As far as you're aware, you simply have no idea where the fuel

7 came from; is that right?

8 A. It was already in the vehicles. I didn't see any filling up.

9 Q. All right. Now, your evidence in relation to the question of

10 separation on the afternoon of the 12th of July is that men were taken to

11 the so-called White House; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And your evidence is quite clearly that there is no dispute in

14 your mind that you entered into this house; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, I entered the house.

16 Q. You were quite specific this morning, were you not? You said that

17 you went to the -- a room on the first floor of the house; is that right?

18 A. No. When I entered, the first area upon entering.

19 Q. All right. And you have a specific recollection, do you not, of

20 seeing passports and identity cards in that room that you entered; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes. I remember seeing them in a corner.

23 Q. Now, you were shown a photo this morning of the so-called White

24 House. You recall that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2080

1 Q. You would agree that there is nothing from the photograph of the

2 White House which shows that it is a house under construction? Would you

3 agree with that?

4 A. No. I don't understand your question.

5 Q. This is at -- in your first statement. That's 1D00017 at page 8.

6 I want you to have a look at the fourth paragraph, please. Sorry, the

7 first statement, not the second statement. And page 8.

8 The paragraph begins: "About 10 minutes later I went back

9 outside, and I saw that the people were already being loaded onto the

10 buses. I saw that men were being picked out by the Bosnian Serb soldiers

11 and assembled at a house opposite the entrance to the compound."

12 Do you see where I'm reading from?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You then went on to say: "This house was still under

15 construction."

16 Is that right? Is that correct?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. "I wanted to talk over to the men but were restrained by soldiers

19 with dogs, who told me I was not allowed to go any further."

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That's correct, that you went to go into the house but you were

23 restrained? Is that right?

24 A. No, I was inside first, and afterwards I had to leave and was not

25 allowed to re-enter.

Page 2081

1 Q. Uh-huh. Well, you also provided a debriefing document about this

2 question -- sorry -- about you entering that house or not. This is --

3 this isn't in my list, Your Honour, of exhibits but the ERN number is

4 R0138887 at page 8, where you said this: "He further stated," this is

5 you, "that he noticed that people were separated before entering the buses

6 and that men were taken to the renowned house and that Major de Haan

7 counted the people who went in and those who came out." Is that right?

8 That's what you said in your debriefing, one of your debriefings? I

9 should give the date. The 12th of September, 1995, it looks like.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yes. And then you went on to say: "The witness himself could not

12 get permission from the Serb on duty to inspect the house."

13 Is that right? Is that correct?

14 A. That's correct, but at first I entered and was told to leave and

15 the second time I was not allowed to go back in. So first I was inside.

16 Q. But you agree that both in your first statement and in your

17 debriefing you have made it very clear that you were prevented from

18 entering the house?

19 MR. NICHOLLS: I object to that characterisation. I'm sorry, I

20 didn't wait to --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Objection sustained. He never said that.

22 There's nothing in the document from where you were reading that says that

23 he stated that.

24 MS. CONDON: I'll move on, Your Honour.

25 Q. Now, just in relation to the question of separation itself,

Page 2082

1 Colonel Boering, your evidence is that you observed separations to be

2 occurring while General Mladic was present at Potocari; is that right?

3 A. When the refugees were being transported in the buses, that was at

4 that point men were being separated, and General Mladic was present there.

5 Q. Yes. And your evidence is that as I understand it you have a

6 specific recollection of reporting the fact of separation to lieutenant

7 Colonel Karremans; is that right? If I'm wrong, that's fine, but I just

8 want to clarify this. And I'll ask it in a much clearer way. But did you

9 in fact report the separations you say you saw to Lieutenant Colonel

10 Karremans?

11 A. I reported this to Major Franken when I exited what was known as

12 the White House after my first visit there.

13 Q. And are you able to give me an indication of what time in the

14 afternoon that was on the 12th of July?

15 A. No. I think it was around 1.30 or 2.00.

16 Q. 1.30 or 2.00 that you made that report to Deputy Commander

17 Franken; is that correct?

18 A. Yes. 1.30 or 2.00 or 2.30 around that time. Just before the

19 convoy departed.

20 Q. That was my next question. You were part of the first convoy.

21 What time did you leave Potocari?

22 A. That's a difficult question. I think it was about 3.00 or 3.30.

23 I really don't remember exactly what time.

24 Q. All right. And what you also say is that upon arrival at Luka

25 there were separations that you saw then; is that correct?

Page 2083

1 A. That's correct.

2 MS. CONDON: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Condon.

4 So who is going to go next tomorrow -- on Monday? It will be Mr.

5 Meek.

6 MR. MEEK: I will, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And you still anticipate an hour and

8 fifteen minutes?

9 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour. That's what I anticipate, depending

10 on whether the witness actually listens to all the translations in Dutch

11 before he answers. I notice he answered some of your questions straight

12 away and other times he doesn't, so I'll try.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Okay. So, Colonel, we are going to stop here

14 for this week. We will resume again on Monday. We're still in the

15 morning on Monday, aren't we? We're still in the morning. Hopefully by

16 Tuesday we'll try to make an effort to conclude with your testimony here.

17 Yes. Thank you, and a nice weekend to everybody.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day

20 of September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.