Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2312

1 Thursday, 28 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good afternoon to you. Could you

7 kindly call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci. I see that more or less everyone is present.

11 If there are problems with interpretation, just let me know, please.

12 Prosecution is Mr. Thayer is here and Mr. McCloskey. No

13 significant absences from the Defence teams. All right.

14 Mr. Thayer, no preliminaries, I take it, no?

15 MR. THAYER: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. No -- no preliminaries.

17 Okay. So Mr. Popovic will be represented now by Mr. Zivanovic,

18 Major, and Mr. Zivanovic is going to cross-examine you first.


20 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Van Duijn, I'm going to direct your attention

22 now to the 12th of July, 1995, when you found yourself at Potocari and

23 when you and your soldiers helped when Muslim civilians were entering

24 buses.

25 I would like to ask you to look at a photograph that you already

Page 2313

1 looked at yesterday. This is photograph 1516, and I would like you to

2 tell us where you and your soldiers were.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: At which time, Mr. Zivanovic?

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that the photograph would

5 need to be rotated. Perhaps it can stay like this but I think it's

6 actually the other way round. I think that's how we looked at it

7 yesterday. This is how it was yesterday.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And I would prefer to have it as it is now,

9 from north to south.

10 THE WITNESS: When we helped the Muslim refugees and tried to

11 provide as much as humanitarian aid as possible, we were on a location

12 that I can't see on this size, so ...

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you marked that yesterday, no?


15 JUDGE AGIUS: With the words "refugees."

16 THE WITNESS: Yes. And we were just a little bit north of the

17 area I marked as the refugee area.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That was marked yesterday, Mr. Zivanovic. Do you

19 wish him to mark it again?

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that yesterday he said

21 where he arrived on the 12th of July, from position 02, but he didn't

22 explicitly say that he remained at that position during the actual

23 evacuation of Srebrenica. There is why I put this question. I recall him

24 marking the place where he came.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You are 100 per cent right and that's why a minute

Page 2314

1 ago or so, I asked you to be more specific, because he has already

2 described to us that he started in one place but ended up in another.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So can we zoom out a little bit on this photo,

5 please? I think that's fine as it is now.

6 Major, if you could kindly mark on this map or on this aerial

7 image the various areas, sites, where you happened to be on the 12th of

8 July, 1995. Starting from the one you marked yesterday as refugees, and

9 then proceed as you like. All right.

10 THE WITNESS: This first area I marked is basically the refugee

11 area. The second one --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could write again "refugees" next to it,

13 please.

14 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm trying to assist you, Mr. Zivanovic, not to

16 interrupt.

17 THE WITNESS: The second area is the area of the house with the

18 lawn, where at the 12th the men were gathered, the men that were singled

19 out, and basically my position on the 12th, from the morning I came from

20 the position just a little bit north from point 02, I walked up to the

21 area just in between of those two areas. That's where my personal

22 position was at the 12th, and my men, the UNPROFOR men, were also in that

23 position and among the refugees in the refugee area.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So could you put LVD next -- those are your

25 initials, okay. Thank you.

Page 2315

1 Were you in any other place on that day, which would be included

2 in this aerial image?

3 THE WITNESS: The -- at the end of the day, I walked back to the

4 compound so the road to the compound of DutchBat was also the area where I

5 walked up and down, more or less.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: From the -- on the main road?

7 THE WITNESS: Only, yeah, the main roads, yes, sir.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All right.

9 Back to you, Mr. Zivanovic.

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Were you at the same location on the 13th of July as well, the one

12 that you've just marked?

13 A. As I said before, during the night, Lieutenant Koster assisted by

14 making the V-shaped tunnel a little bit more to the north, so basically up

15 to the location I was during the 12th. So my position on the 13th was

16 just a little bit more to the north, more to the area of the house with

17 the lawns in front of them but basically the same area.

18 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us how many UNPROFOR soldiers

19 besides you assisted the refugees?

20 A. If I have to make an estimation now, depending on the day and

21 depending on the time, varying between 30 and 40 soldiers from UNPROFOR.

22 Q. When you mentioned the letter V, are you saying that this V was

23 formed actually by soldiers or by the UN vehicles?

24 A. By use of the UN vehicles, you can see in the video that the APCs

25 are positioned in such a way that resembles more or less the V shape.

Page 2316

1 Q. Could you please tell us what the total number of APCs was that

2 you had at your disposal there?

3 A. The APCs that we used to make the V shape were four APCs.

4 Q. Thank you. You arrived there in accordance with the instructions

5 of your superior. I think his name is Groen. And I think that he had the

6 rank of captain. Is that correct?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. On the 12th and the 13th of July, were you in contact with him?

9 A. On the morning of the 12th, I was still under the command of

10 Captain Groen. By the time I went to the refugee area, Captain Groen

11 withdrew with the rest of his company that was originally based in

12 Srebrenica town, in the compound there, and from that moment on, I was

13 directly placed under the battalion command, so the battalion operations

14 room, and there was no direct link between me and Captain Groen anymore.

15 So from that moment on, from the time I came at the position of the

16 refugee area, I was directly under battalion command.

17 Q. When you say the battalion command, could you mention the name of

18 the officer under whose command you were?

19 A. Colonel Karremans.

20 Q. Thank you. During those two days, did you receive any orders from

21 him to do anything else other than what you were actually doing?

22 A. During those two days, I did not have a personal contact with him.

23 The contacts were through the duty officer at the operations room, or with

24 Major Franken. That was the second in command of the battalion. And of

25 course I spoke with Major Franken to see what the things were that we

Page 2317

1 could do to adjust the situation, but there were no big changes to the

2 things we did there at that time, at that location.

3 Q. Did you receive any instructions from Major Franken or from the

4 duty officers to do anything else other than what you were doing anyway?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Van Duijn, yesterday you said that at the

7 beginning, when you came to Potocari and when the transport of the

8 refugees began, the men were not separated from the rest, at the

9 beginning. Could you please tell me how long this lasted?

10 A. I don't know exactly if the men were separated from the beginning

11 on. As I stated, I did not see or notice or did not get any reports that

12 they were singled out from the beginning on, but if I have to make an

13 estimation, I think that would be the first order -- the first two hours

14 of the transports.

15 Q. If I understood you correctly, does that mean that there was no

16 separation of the men during the first two hours of the transport?

17 A. Not that I have ever seen or did I get any reports about that. I

18 don't know if it didn't happen. I only know that after those first one or

19 two hours, I got reports and I saw myself that the men were singled out.

20 Q. Thank you. Quite a large number of vehicles passed by you,

21 vehicles in which these refugees were transported, trucks, buses. Did you

22 see if any of those buses or trucks stopped to refill gas?

23 A. No. I haven't seen that.

24 Q. Did you hear that this was done at a location that was a little

25 bit more to the north in relation to where you were?

Page 2318

1 A. No.

2 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you also spoke about a suspension of the

3 transport on the 12th of July. You said that in the evening, Serb

4 soldiers went to Bratunac to celebrate. Did they perhaps tell you that

5 this was an important Orthodox holiday, St. Peter's Day, and that that was

6 the reason why they went to Bratunac?

7 A. No. They didn't tell me that. They just told me that they went

8 to Bratunac to Hotel Fontana to celebrate.

9 Q. During that night, you didn't have an opportunity to see any

10 Serbian soldiers where you were?

11 A. At that time, I was -- sorry. At that time, I was at the compound

12 of DutchBat and there were no Serbian soldiers at the compound.

13 Q. Thank you. You were more to the north in the Dutch Battalion's

14 base, but before you got to the base, did you happen to see perhaps

15 Serbian soldiers around the compound, in the yard around the base?

16 A. The Serbian soldiers I had seen when I went from the location of

17 the refugee area to the DutchBat compound were the soldiers that took part

18 in the roll-call I saw at the evening of the 12th.

19 Q. Yes. You did talk about that. Thank you. On the 13th of July,

20 you said that without the presence of the Serbian soldiers, a number of

21 refugees were dispatched in buses in the direction of Muslim territory,

22 and of course when this was done, you did not carry out any separations.

23 Could you please tell us how many men approximately left at that time in

24 the buses?

25 A. That would be very difficult to calculate. I can make an

Page 2319

1 estimation now, and if I have to do that, then I would think of maybe 100

2 or 150 Muslim men that we could keep with their families.

3 Q. Thank you. When the Serb soldiers came on the 13th of July,

4 around 8.30 in the morning, you continued to work in the same way that you

5 did the day before; is that correct?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. Nothing changed because of the fact that you had previously sent

8 this group of Muslims off in the buses?

9 A. After the Serbian soldiers came to that location again, to my

10 location at the 13th, from that moment on, the singling out of the men

11 started again. And because of course by the Serbian soldiers, this

12 happened, this was the same way as it happened at the 12th.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you have answered the question, Major.

14 The question was: "Nothing changed because of the fact that you had

15 previously sent this group of Muslims off in the buses?"

16 That was the question. In other words, as I read Mr. Zivanovic's

17 question, the fact that you had succeeded in sending some -- a group of

18 men together with their families off in the buses before the arrival of

19 the Serb soldiers did not have any repercussion on what happened

20 afterwards, did it? This is basically what you're being asked.

21 THE WITNESS: There were no repercussions for me or for the way

22 DutchBat worked. We worked in the same vein as on the 12th. The only

23 difference was the singling out by the Serb soldiers.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that answer your question, Mr. Zivanovic?

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2320

1 Q. You also told us yesterday that once the refugees left Potocari on

2 the 13th of July, 1995, they left behind quite a lot of their personal

3 items; amongst other things, you mentioned photographs, blankets. My

4 question is whether other than photographs, blankets, you saw

5 identification documents, identity cards, passports, drivers's licences,

6 weapons permits, and similar documents.

7 A. Passports I had seen were on the lawn of the "White House" and if

8 I'm not mistaken, the other photographs and blankets which I talked about

9 yesterday were the personal items that were left behind in the refugee

10 area. In the refugee area I saw blankets, photographs. I didn't see

11 specifics in the sense of passports in the refugee area. The passports I

12 had seen were on the lawn of the "White House."

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And identity cards? And drivers's licences, weapons

14 permits?

15 THE WITNESS: No. I have not seen that, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Did you see any weapons, perhaps?

19 A. With the Muslim refugees, I saw no weapons.

20 Q. I apologise. No, I didn't mean the refugees. I meant amongst the

21 items that were left behind after the refugees departed.

22 A. No. I haven't seen any weapons.

23 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you spoke about the blocking positions which

24 you took up before the fall of Srebrenica on the 10th of July, that you

25 and your unit assumed. Could you please tell us whether these blocking

Page 2321

1 positions were on the road between Srebrenica and Zelani Jadar?

2 A. I don't know where Zelani Jadar is, so I couldn't answer that

3 question.

4 Q. How many APCs were used in the taking up of this -- or these

5 blocking positions?

6 A. At first, the one I know about that were under the control of

7 Captain Groen, there were six APCs on different locations. Near my

8 location and as I stated before, the night of the 9th and the 10th I left

9 with two APCs. But in total, there were six, what I know of.

10 Q. Let me ask you this: Did perhaps when you were returning to

11 Srebrenica come a time when one of your APCs slid off the road?

12 A. Not one of my APCs.

13 Q. You are not aware of any such thing, you didn't see that APC, or

14 do you mean that that APC was not under your command?

15 A. Not an APC that was under my command slid off the road, no.

16 Q. I'm not sure you understood me. I was asking if you were aware

17 that any of the APCs of the UN, no matter under whose command, slid off

18 the road on the way back to Srebrenica.

19 A. On the way back to Srebrenica, I haven't heard of one of the APCs

20 sliding off the road.

21 Q. Can you tell me how long was your return trip to Srebrenica?

22 A. Do you mean coming back from the blocking position to the compound

23 or to point 02?

24 Q. I mean the return trip you mentioned in your last answer.

25 A. If you mean the return trip, that's what I meant, coming back from

Page 2322

1 the APCs north to the compound of -- of the battalion in -- at the base in

2 Potocari, that's -- was beginning on the 11th and lasted more or less the

3 whole day until the starting of the evening.

4 Q. That's not what I meant. I meant your return from the blocking

5 position to Srebrenica, the blocking position that you held on the 10th of

6 July. How long did it take you to go back to Srebrenica?

7 A. From the 10th on, I took up the blocking position, and on

8 the 11th, we pulled back gradually towards the base of the Bravo Company

9 which is located in the centre of Srebrenica. So that took the morning.

10 Q. To return from the blocking position to the centre of Srebrenica?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. Another thing you said yesterday was that UN convoys

13 were restricted - I mean humanitarian convoys - and that was especially

14 felt in March and April 1995. Do you know why these restrictions

15 occurred?

16 A. Because the Serbs, and the Serb forces did not grant the

17 permission for the convoys to enter and there were two types of convoys,

18 purely humanitarian convoys for the refugees in the area and the convoys

19 for us to be resupplied, meaning DutchBat.

20 Q. But do you know why the convoys were prevented from entering, why

21 restrictions were imposed on them? Have you heard anything about that?

22 A. I don't know the reason why the Serb forces did that.

23 Q. That shortage was certainly felt by you and your soldiers; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 2323

1 Q. Did it ever occur to you that you could ask your superior

2 officers, for instance, why you were not getting the things that you

3 needed?

4 A. Yes, of course, and we spoke about that constantly. And the

5 explanation was that the Serb forces did not get the clearance, give the

6 clearance, needed for the convoys to get in.

7 Q. You did not ask your superior officers whether the Serb forces

8 provided any explanation for that?

9 A. That was the explanation, no clearance.

10 Q. You were in contact with Serb forces yourself, Serb armed forces,

11 the Serb army; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. Did you ask them perhaps why you were not allowed access to the

14 things you needed so badly, such as food?

15 A. Yes, of course. We spoke about that and also about regional

16 aspects.

17 Q. And what did they tell you why the UN convoys were restricted?

18 A. I cannot remember that they gave me any explanation other than

19 that they didn't know why the convoys were not granted with the clearance.

20 The clearances were given on another post, post near OP-Papa called Yellow

21 Bridge, and that was not in my area.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I think this needs a little bit

23 of a clarification. It's too generic the way you've put the question,

24 Mr. Zivanovic.

25 At the time, Major, you were a lieutenant and platoon commander,

Page 2324

1 weren't you?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, you're correct, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And you've just stated that you or you accepted the

4 proposition that you were in contact with Serb forces. This is how it was

5 put to you. And you said yes, that's correct. And then you added that or

6 you spoke about the matter of -- the matter that we are talking about,

7 with these Serb forces but can you be specific? What do you mean by "Serb

8 forces"? Were you speaking to persons in command, to ordinary military

9 soldiers, to officers, to generals, to commanders or what?

10 THE WITNESS: Near to one of my observation posts in my area,

11 OP Romeo, there was a bunker of Serb forces just outside of the enclave,

12 and the group commander on OP Romeo was into regular contact with the Serb

13 soldiers there in that bunker, and I myself also during the six months was

14 into contact with them on a few occasions, and then of course we spoke

15 about the things, the regional aspects, the border line incidents that had

16 happened during weeks before, and we also spoke about of course the lack

17 of resupplying that we faced. But there were no commanders or other high

18 positioned Serbs.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Major.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Just one more question on this subject. Did any of the people you

22 were in contact with tell you on the subject of restrictions imposed on

23 humanitarian aid that the reason why the convoys were restricted is that

24 part of that humanitarian aid is going to the Muslim armed forces in the

25 enclave?

Page 2325

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

2 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I'm objecting at this point as opposed

3 to a couple of times ago because this question has been asked in several

4 different forms and he's answered consistently that he didn't receive any

5 specific information from any Serb forces as to the reason for the

6 restriction on the various supply convoys.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead and answer the question, but

9 this will be the last time this matter is being addressed, unless there

10 are really different approaches to it.

11 Major, I'm allowing the question after having consulted with my

12 colleagues for the simple reason that it's specific to the people that you

13 were in contact with. It's not as generic as the others were. This is

14 very specific. So limiting yourself to the people that you were in

15 contact with. You've just described who they were. During your

16 conversations or exchanges on the subject of restrictions, were you told

17 or were you informed by any of them that the reason why the convoys were

18 restricted is that or was that part of the humanitarian aid was going to

19 the Muslim armed forces in the enclave? Do you recall ever having been

20 told this by any of the Serbs military that you conversed with?

21 THE WITNESS: I have no recollection of that, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Major.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Just two more questions on the previous subject regarding your

25 return from the blocking position to Srebrenica. Can you tell us how far

Page 2326

1 were they from the town?

2 A. Depending how you would describe the town, basically our positions

3 were in the outskirts of Srebrenica, on the south side, and so basically

4 we were still in the region of Srebrenica, and the drawback that we did

5 happened in phases, so it is difficult to make an estimation now, but I

6 would think a few kilometres.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. We do appreciate very

10 much the fact that you single yourself out and stick to the time indicated

11 previously for cross-examination. Yes.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we need to do this. Mr. Zivanovic?

14 You might hear me better. I suppose that you want to save this image with

15 the markings of --

16 So Major, could you be kind enough to sign it, please? And then

17 Madam Registrar will immortalise it in the records of this Tribunal.

18 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. And then it will be given a

20 number later on when you tender it.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Defence for Mr. Beara. Mr. Meek,

23 Christopher Meek, will be cross-examining you, Major, now on behalf of

24 Colonel Beara.

25 Go ahead.

Page 2327

1 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours, thank you very

2 much, but on behalf of Mr. Beara, we have no questions for this witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you so much, Mr. Meek.

4 Defence for Mr. Nikolic? Mr. Stephane Bourgon, who is defending

5 together with Madam Nikolic, accused Nikolic will be cross-examining you

6 now. You had indicated 30 minutes as an estimate.

7 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

8 Honours.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

11 Q. Good afternoon, Major. I only have a few questions for you as the

12 client I represented was not involved in the activities you testified

13 about.

14 Now, in your testimony, you were asked many questions concerning

15 your knowledge of the Bosnian Serb army. And in this regard, would you

16 agree with me that during the time of your tour, that is from January to

17 July, that the information that was available to you and to DutchBat

18 concerning the structure and organisation of the Bosnian Serb army was

19 limited to what you had received prior to your deployment?

20 A. Yes. I agree on that.

21 Q. And would you agree with me that the reason for this is that your

22 battalion, DutchBat, that is, either did not have intelligence gathering

23 capability or did not use such capability during the six months that you

24 were there?

25 A. DutchBat tried to use everything it had when it comes to

Page 2328

1 intelligence gathering. But you're correct when it comes to intelligence

2 outside the enclave, we did not have any support or means of ourself.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, during your testimony you were asked some

4 questions about an individual you referred to as being Major Nikolic.

5 Now, I take it from your responses to the questions by my colleague from

6 the Prosecution, that Major Nikolic was well known to DutchBat.

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And are you in a position to confirm that Major Nikolic was indeed

9 a key player in the events which took place on the 12th and 13th of July,

10 1995?

11 A. I don't know if he was a key player. I can only say what I have

12 seen during those two days and of course the days before, and that was

13 that Major Nikolic was also on site and was into contact with people that

14 I had seen at the site and know that they had a key role in the events on

15 those two days, meaning Mane and Stalin.

16 Q. And it was your understanding talking about these two individuals,

17 that Major Nikolic was the superior to Stalin who in turn was the superior

18 to Mane?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, I hate this when it happens; however,

21 we have a technical problem. And I'm told that outside the courtroom the

22 synchronisation between image and sound has gone bust. So it needs to be

23 taken care of, and I've been asked to grant a short break and they will

24 attend to the matter. It doesn't affect us in here but it does affect

25 outside.

Page 2329

1 30 minutes you need? All right. So we will have a 30-minute

2 break, ensuring that in the meantime this will be sorted out and then we

3 continue afterwards. Thank you.

4 --- Break taken at 3.06 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 3.40 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Is everything fixed? All right. Thank you.

7 My apologies again to you, Mr. Bourgon, and to you, Major.

8 You can proceed. Thank you.

9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Welcome back, Major. I only have a few more questions for you.

11 The first one dealing with your knowledge of the person I represent in

12 this case. I have read all of your material related to your testimony and

13 prior testimony, and I would just like to confirm or -- whether -- to ask

14 you to confirm that during your tour in Bosnia, you never came across or

15 heard of anyone by the name of Second Lieutenant Drago Nikolic?

16 A. I have no recollection of that, no.

17 Q. And I would like to you confirm also in the same way that you

18 never came across or heard of anyone referred to as the security officer

19 or chief of security of the Zvornik Brigade.

20 A. No, I have never heard about that, no.

21 Q. Now, then again, if I ask you whether you are aware that Zvornik

22 Brigade was one of the brigades within the Drina Corps, are you or were

23 you able at the time to confirm this?

24 A. I know that at that time also after preparing for the mission, I

25 had a fairly good idea of the Serb units that were in the area, and I've

Page 2330

1 heard the name of the Zvornik Brigade in combination with that area, but

2 that's the only thing I can say about that now.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, my last question, or a couple of questions, deal

4 with your knowledge of the man you describe or you identified - sorry -

5 as being General Mladic.

6 Now, on the basis of your personal experience, would you agree

7 with me that General Mladic was a charismatic leader who knew very well

8 how to make his presence felt?

9 A. He has some sort of dark form of charisma, and he makes sure by

10 using his body-guards in such a way that everyone knows that he's present.

11 Q. And Major, even though you are not from the same army as General

12 Mladic, and although you are -- you know you're taller than General

13 Mladic, would you agree with me that meeting him on those two occasions

14 was somewhat of an intimidating experience?

15 A. Not really for me personally.

16 Q. Now, I'd like to refer you quickly to your testimony in the

17 Blagojevic case. Do you remember having testified in the Blagojevic case?

18 A. Yes, I remember that.

19 Q. Now, in that case, you were asked to describe the demeanour of

20 General Mladic both times you met him. And your answer, and I quote here

21 from the transcript in the Blagojevic case, on page 1114, that is 1114.

22 And your answer was as follows: "He was giving orders when he wanted to,

23 but the process was ongoing, and like in every army, when the highest

24 ranking officer comes to the scene and he wants to change anything, he can

25 because he's the commander."

Page 2331

1 Do you still agree with what you said in the Blagojevic case?

2 Would you still agree with that today?

3 A. If that is the correct sentence, but if you -- as you read it, I

4 still agree with that, yes.

5 Q. Thank you, Major. I have no further questions.

6 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

8 We now come to the Defence of Mr. Borovcanin, and it's

9 Mr. Lazarevic who will be cross-examining you, Major.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Major Van Duijn.

13 [Interpretation] Major, I should like to establish first on how

14 many occasions you testified, whether before the military bodies, Dutch

15 state organs and this Tribunal. In fact, the first thing you did was fill

16 in a questionnaire for the purposes of the ICTY. Do you remember that?

17 A. I remember filling in questionnaires, but I don't recall which

18 questionnaire was aimed or meant to be for which body.

19 Q. Thank you for this answer. Would it assist you if I showed you

20 the questionnaire? I have a hard copy here, if you just want to see

21 whether it's that document. It's four pages long.

22 A. Yes, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Has this been scanned, Mr. Lazarevic or not?

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, Your Honour. I was just trying to establish

25 whether it was his handwriting and when whether he really filled in this

Page 2332

1 questionnaire.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

3 Let's put it on the ELMO, please, then.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is the questionnaire I filled in.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Thank you. Could you just tell me, since I did not manage to find

7 the date on this questionnaire, if you remember when you filled it in?

8 A. No, I don't recall when I filled this questionnaire in.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: I don't need it on the ELMO anymore.

11 Q. [Interpretation] You also gave a statement to the Office of the

12 Prosecutor of this Tribunal on the 25th October, 1995. Do you recall

13 that?

14 A. I think that was the statement which was in Assen.

15 Q. At any rate, it's a statement you provided to the Office of the

16 Prosecutor of the Tribunal. The date on it is the 25th of October, 1995.

17 Do we have any reason to doubt that? Do you want me to show you the

18 document?

19 A. Yes, please.

20 Yes, I remember this document.

21 Q. Thank you very much. You also gave a statement to the Royal Army

22 of the Netherlands titled "Operative processing of Srebrenica,

23 debriefing." Can you tell me when you made a debriefing before the Royal

24 Army of the Netherlands?

25 A. Can you please show me that document?

Page 2333

1 Q. [In English] By all means.

2 A. This is the translation of the debriefing that was also held in

3 Assen. And on the Dutch version, as I remember correctly, if I remember

4 correctly, the dates are on that, but I don't remember from the top of my

5 mind when this debriefing was held.

6 Q. [Interpretation] At any rate, you do not contest that you gave

7 that statement and that is the translation of that statement?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Also according to the information we received from the OTP, you

10 gave another statement in the process of debriefing on the 12th and 13th

11 September 1995. It is a slightly longer statement, 20 pages long. Do you

12 remember that?

13 A. Can I please see that one?

14 Q. Certainly.

15 A. This is the whole personal statement I made in Assen, yes.

16 Q. Thank you very much. So that is that statement.

17 And after that, in 2002, on the 11th November, you testified here

18 in The Hague before the Parliamentary Commission of the Kingdom of the

19 Netherlands. Do you recall that?

20 A. I don't recall the date but I was a witness in that parliamentary

21 inquiry, yes.

22 Q. You can take my word for it or you can see the date on the

23 document.

24 A. Yes. That's correct.

25 Q. Thank you. And just in conclusion, you have already testified in

Page 2334

1 this Tribunal, in the Krstic case, the Blagojevic and Jokic case. That is

2 not in dispute.

3 A. No, it is not, no.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Now, having looked through all your

5 statements together, can you tell me if there may be yet another statement

6 that you may have given to either military bodies or the state bodies of

7 the Netherlands, the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal, or

8 anything else, any statement at all that I'm not aware of?

9 A. I cannot say if there is another statement. This seems to be all

10 the statements I made.

11 Q. All right. Thank you. When giving all these statements in the

12 process of debriefing, before the Parliamentary Commission, and during

13 testimony, you always spoke the truth to the best of your recollection; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Thank you. Sir, when you came to testify, and during proofing,

17 did Mr. Thayer, the person I know did the proofing with you, show you

18 these statements that I have just shown you myself?

19 A. Yes, we spoke about it, yes.

20 Q. And did you have occasion to review those statements, to

21 familiarise yourself with the contents, or maybe make corrections as to

22 the accuracy of some statements or correct some typographical errors, such

23 as in the dates, such as from the 13th July 1995 to the 14th July 1995?

24 Did you have occasion to do that during your proofing session with the

25 Prosecutor?

Page 2335

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. Thank you. Let me just ask you this: So you familiarised

3 yourself with your statements, you reviewed them, you made your

4 corrections. Now, do you stand by everything that you stated, asserted,

5 in those statements?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: I would like this document to be shown to the

9 witness. Unfortunately, I don't have it on the e-court so I will have to

10 use the ELMO for this. We were unfortunately late to put this document in

11 the e-court system, but I believe that this will work fine with the ELMO.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Major Van Duijn, during your testimony yesterday,

13 I understood that on your APC you took up position, blocking position, at

14 location 02 and from that position you saw the arrival of the members of

15 the army of Republika Srpska. Do you remember that part of your

16 testimony?

17 A. That part of my testimony was slightly different, because at first

18 we took up a position at point 02. Later on because the shelling was too

19 heavy on point 02, we took up a position later on that day, on the 11th, a

20 little bit north of point 02, but from that location we could see

21 point 02, the crossroads.

22 Q. All right. I accept fully what you've just said.

23 Could you please look now at this document that is on the ELMO?

24 We received it from the Office of the Prosecutor, and you have already

25 marked position 02 on it. The point circled in the bottom part of that

Page 2336

1 picture, is that point 02?

2 A. This point I marked now is the crossroads as we called 02,

3 point 02.

4 Q. Thank you very much. That's how I understood this drawing of

5 yours.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, Madam Usher, if you could kindly

7 give the witness a coloured pen, any colour. And if he could kindly draw

8 around the same circle that he indicated to us a minute ago, put your --

9 the description 02.

10 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Point 02. And could you just initial that area,

12 please? Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I thank you, Your Honour, for your assistance.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Can you please mark the other position that you

17 moved to or withdrew to after you left position 02?

18 A. That would be just a little bit north of point 02. Must have been

19 in this area.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE KWON: Zoom out a little bit further. Further. Can I see

22 the handwriting down -- zoom, zoom out. Further. Yes. Point 02 and

23 further can I see -- usher, yeah, further down, yes. What does it -- what

24 is it? Is it your handwriting?

25 THE WITNESS: If I can explain, Your Honour, this is the sketch

Page 2337

1 which I made myself. The position of the APCs at point 02 where we

2 positioned ourself at first and later on, we only were there for a few

3 hours, and later on we positioned our APCs a little bit more north, with

4 two APCs on each side of the road so it was easier, but this was a sketch

5 to make clear in the operational or in the debrief to show where our APCs

6 were at that time.

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And the rest of the handwriting on the page, on the

9 sides, is it yours as well?

10 THE WITNESS: Only the handwriting in the bottom, and the

11 handwriting on the sides is from the interviewers.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

13 Mr. Lazarevic.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Sir, this second circle that you drew, which more or less

16 represents the position to which you withdrew from position 02, so can you

17 mark that as the second position? Can you please do that with a marker?

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you very much. And now this place where we have written

20 down "second position," that is the place where you saw the arrival of the

21 Serbian forces, the forces of the army of Republika Srpska?

22 A. Yes. That was the position where I spent the night from the 11th

23 in the evening, where also the arrival of Sergeant Mulder of OP Mike was

24 and consequently in the morning of the 12th, the arrival of the Serb

25 forces. That's correct.

Page 2338

1 Q. In your testimony, you talked about Serbian forces arriving from

2 two different directions; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Could you please mark with an arrow the first direction that the

5 Serbian forces arrived from? The first units that arrived from the first

6 direction or one of the directions.

7 A. The first Serb soldiers we saw crossing the fields on the eastern

8 side, and then came on the road at point 02. After clearing the houses

9 there, they came up to the north to our location. I hope this is visible.

10 Q. The arrow that you just drew shows the direction from which the

11 Serbian forces arrived. Is that the same direction where the observation

12 posts Romeo and Quebec were? Did they arrive from that direction?

13 A. Romeo and Quebec were in the northeast but were further away.

14 From the reports we got, troops, Serbian troops, came alongside the

15 compound in Potocari, on the eastern side, then crossed the fields and

16 then came up to the road.

17 When you look at the reports, it should be those troops that

18 crossed the fields after being on the eastern side of the compound.

19 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. Can you please now sketch in these

20 other Serb forces that you saw with an arrow? What was the other

21 direction where these other Serbian forces came from?

22 A. [Marks]. The other forces came from the north, on the road from

23 north to south.

24 Q. Very well. And now if you can write next to the arrows "VRS" so

25 that we know what they stand for.

Page 2339

1 A. [Marks].

2 JUDGE AGIUS: To be more precise, after this last VRS that you

3 wrote, could you put -- add the number 1, please?

4 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And at the end of the previous one, yeah, could you

6 put a number 2, please?

7 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I have one more question and I think then we will not be needing

11 this map anymore, but the question is actually not so specifically related

12 to the map. What was the time that this happened? When was it that you

13 saw these Serbian forces? Could you please be more specific about the

14 time when you saw this happening?

15 A. This was in the morning of the 12th, and it must have been

16 around 10.00 in the morning.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: I don't need this map anymore. Thank you very

19 much.

20 Q. [Interpretation] The night of the 11th and 12th of July you spent

21 at that position; is that correct?

22 A. The position just north of point 02, that's correct.

23 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. And that night, according to our

24 information, at around quarter past 12.00, or after midnight, a large

25 group of refugees, a large group of people, passed by these positions of

Page 2340

1 yours. And I think you described that.

2 A. In my recollection, it was a little bit before midnight,

3 around 11.00, 11.00 or 12.00, but that was the group of Sergeant Mulder

4 coming -- accompanied by a large group of refugees coming from the area

5 around OP Mike.

6 Q. It's not so important whether it was a quarter of an hour, 20

7 minutes earlier or an hour later. What I'm interested in is that large

8 group of refugees that passed by. Did you notice people with weapons in

9 that group of people?

10 A. No. I have no recollection of that.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Major, in your testimony yesterday, you

12 mentioned several times Captain Mane. Specifically on page 52 of the

13 transcript you said that you told you that the refugees would be

14 transported out of the enclave and that he wanted to know whether the UN

15 soldiers would stay or would go back to the base. So he practically

16 provided you with an opportunity, either of staying there or returning to

17 the UN base. Do you recall that part of your testimony?

18 A. Yes, I recall that.

19 Q. Thank you. And while we are on the subject of Captain Mane, you

20 recognised him on the stills, the video footage, and it was evident from

21 your testimony that you had many contacts with him. Did you notice if he

22 was wearing any rank insignia on his uniform?

23 A. I don't recall any rank insignia on his uniform.

24 Q. Did he tell you that he was a captain by rank, or was it someone

25 else?

Page 2341

1 A. No. He told me himself.

2 Q. He personally told you. Thank you.

3 At the point when Captain Mane informed you or actually asked you

4 whether you wanted to stay where you were or if you wanted to return to

5 the base, you decided to stay. What I'm interested in is if this decision

6 was something that you made yourself or whether you consulted any of your

7 superiors in reaching this decision.

8 A. No. I took this decision myself because it was also in line with

9 earlier guidelines of our battalion command to only provide humanitarian

10 aid, and I thought at that time it was the best way to do that by staying

11 there at that location.

12 Q. That's what I understood also, that it was your personal decision,

13 and I accept that.

14 When you continued with your testimony yesterday, and this is on

15 page 53 of the transcript, lines 9 to 12, you said that you were in

16 contact with Major Franken and that you heard from him that he also was

17 aware of the fact that the refugees would be transported and that's when

18 it practically became clear to you that this would actually happen. Is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes. In my contacts with Major Franken, he confirmed that he had

21 also heard, in talks, that this was the case and that the refugees were

22 supposed to be transported out of the enclave.

23 Q. So Major Franken already knew this when you called him. Is this

24 correct?

25 A. Yes. This is correct. Basically he was surprised that it was

Page 2342

1 already happening.

2 Q. So from this, from your reply, can we conclude that the agreement

3 on the evacuation of the refugees was achieved at a much higher level than

4 your level and the level of Captain Mane, who were actually there at the

5 actual location?

6 A. I don't know if there was any agreement of the sort. What was

7 clear that not only on my level but also on a higher level, there were

8 talks about the evacuation of the refugees.

9 Q. Very well. I accept that you perhaps don't know all the details

10 about who reached the agreement, when the agreement was reached. Are you

11 aware that Colonel Karremans had meetings with General Mladic, that they

12 discussed the topic, that there were some meetings at the Hotel Fontana

13 where some of these things were agreed on and discussed?

14 A. I was not aware at that time of any meetings because basically I

15 was too busy with my own dealings.

16 Q. Very well. I understand from your answer that you found out about

17 this but probably this was later, through the media, or by reading the

18 NIOD reports or in another way.

19 A. I've read about it later, but I don't recall any agreement of some

20 sort.

21 Q. Very well. That's how I understood your answer.

22 At one point in your testimony yesterday, you mentioned that you

23 were - I'm going to use the same term that you used in your testimony - a

24 human chain, in order to attempt to calm down the refugees so that they

25 would not be overcome by panic. Do you recall saying that?

Page 2343

1 A. Yes, I recall that.

2 Q. So if I understood it properly, based on your testimony in other

3 cases, it seems that there was a stampede by the refugees which happened

4 shortly before you arrived, where people crushed each other in an attempt

5 to come to the front, so I assume that that was probably the reason why

6 you set up this human chain. Is this correct?

7 A. I also heard about some sort of a stampede but it was clear to me

8 that we needed to form that human chain in order to prevent people to

9 crush each other or if they would fall down that someone, the other people

10 would stand on them. So that was the reason why we organised it that way.

11 Q. As we were looking at the video footage that we were shown and

12 based on statements by others, there was not only the human chain that was

13 formed there but there were also some coloured tapes that were physically

14 separating the refugees from the Serbian soldiers. Is this correct?

15 A. I've also seen that on the video footage but that was before I

16 came to that location.

17 Q. Thank you. So you don't know who actually set up these -- this

18 tape, because you weren't there at the time; is that correct?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Once you arrived, could you please say what the distance was in

21 metres between the refugees and the first Serb soldiers who were there?

22 A. Basically the soldiers, Serb soldiers that were the closest to the

23 refugees were Mane and Miki, because they were with me, and we were

24 standing more or less 20, 25 metres behind my soldiers that formed the

25 human chain.

Page 2344

1 Q. Mane and Miki were thus standing right next to you while the other

2 soldiers were about 20 or 25 metres away. Is that your testimony?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Now I would like us to look at a very brief segment of the video

5 footage that has already been shown here marked V0003914. [In English]

6 The 65 ter number is P02007.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: It starts at 19.34 and it goes to 19.50. There

9 are only some 15 seconds of this tape.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 Q. What we've just seen in this segment, is that this buffer zone

14 where your soldiers were and the refugees were on one side of it and the

15 Serbian soldiers were on the other side of it? This is what we were just

16 talking about. Is this correct?

17 A. This piece of film is just -- must have been around the time I

18 arrived there, so it was not exactly the way it was organised but it

19 resembles it.

20 Q. Just one more question: When I was looking at this footage, I

21 noticed the DutchBat soldiers, they all had weapons, based on what I could

22 see on the footage. Is this correct?

23 A. I've also seen it, yes.

24 Q. Thank you. You've already responded to a question by my learned

25 friend Mr. Zivanovic about the time when you first noticed the separation

Page 2345

1 of men from the rest of the refugees began. I have one more thing to ask

2 you about that. You said that Mane, Captain Mane, informed you that the

3 reason the men were being separated was to check whether there were war

4 criminals among them, based on a list that they had, and I quoted your

5 testimony page 54 of the transcript, lines 21 to 24. What I'm interested

6 now specifically is this list.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Could the witness be shown document 4 D15?

8 Unfortunately the translation of this document is still pending, although

9 it is tendered into evidence a while ago. We had some problems with

10 translation. But I will try to translate as much as I can. Maybe I would

11 rather read it out in B/C/S because this is a list of names, and I'm

12 interested only the headline of this document.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed the way you have just suggested,

14 Mr. Lazarevic.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Major, there is a document here in B/C/S with the following

17 heading: "List of war criminals known to the command of the 1st Light

18 Infantry Brigade who committed war crimes in the territory of the

19 municipalities of Bratunac, Srebrenica, Milici, Vlasenica and Skelani, who

20 are believed to be in Srebrenica."

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can we go to the second page, the bottom of the

22 second page because it has a date of this document. It's one page before

23 this one. The next one. And another one?

24 Well, my case manager just informed me that it's the

25 last-but-one -- second by last. Okay. We have a date now.

Page 2346

1 Q. [Interpretation] Can you see here at the end of the document, it

2 says "Bratunac, 12th of July 1995"? Did you ever see this document

3 before?

4 A. No. I've never seen this document.

5 Q. Based on the title of the document and the list of the people on

6 it and the date of the document, can we not conclude that it confirms

7 precisely what Captain Mane told you, that there was a list of suspected

8 war criminals and that is what you actually found out from Mane, that

9 there is such a list?

10 A. I've never seen this list, but if the date is correct, then it

11 seems to confirm what Mane told me.

12 Q. Thank you very much. In your testimony yesterday, you mentioned

13 an incident involving a soldier in a black uniform and who tried to pull

14 out a young man from a group of refugees who was -- he tried to pull him

15 out, having grabbed his throat.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the page number.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. It was unclear, though, from what you said yesterday whether

19 Captain Mane managed to stop this soldier from doing what he was doing and

20 to make him leave the area where the refugees were.

21 A. Your Honour, before I answer there question, can I please have the

22 transcript in my screen? Because I only have the list on both screens.

23 Thank you. I have it now.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Usher is going to assist you.

25 THE WITNESS: I have it now.

Page 2347

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


3 Q. You want me to repeat the question?

4 A. No, I've read it. Thank you. Captain Mane stopped the soldier

5 and removed him from the site at my request, and the boy was kept with his

6 family.

7 Q. [Interpretation] So like in numerous situations before that,

8 Captain Mane acknowledged your request and acted accordingly?

9 A. It was difficult to choose the moments to do the requests, but

10 every time I did a request with Captain Mane, he backed me up and the men

11 were able to stay with their families.

12 Q. Thank you. Concerning this man who tried to drag away that boy,

13 you said he had a black uniform, different from the uniforms worn by Mane

14 and his soldiers; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Can we conclude from that that this man in the black uniform did

17 not belong to Captain Mane's unit?

18 A. I don't know. The uniforms were more or less combined. But his

19 overall or black uniform was different than from the other combined

20 uniforms.

21 Q. But Major, you saw the lineup of the unit commanded by Mane. The

22 man in black was not in that lineup, was he?

23 A. I don't know. I don't know if he was there or not.

24 Q. All right. Major, before you took the stand, another member of

25 the DutchBat testified, then major now Colonel Boering, and he confirmed

Page 2348

1 that the embarkation of refugees on to buses took place on several

2 locations, not just one. In your experience; is that correct? I'm

3 talking about the 12th of July.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

5 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I don't object to the substance of the

6 question per se, but I believe we've had some rulings in this regard with

7 respect to identifying the names of particular witnesses who testified.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness has -- I think it's a harmless question.

9 Let's proceed.

10 THE WITNESS: I don't know of any information. I don't have any

11 information that the embarkation of the refugees took place on several

12 locations. I don't know that.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. But generally speaking, on the 12th of July, did you see Major

15 Boering in that area where men were being singled out around that house

16 where the men were placed?

17 A. I have no recollection of meeting Major Boering at that day, at

18 that time.

19 Q. Right. Based on the markings you made on the aerial photograph

20 yesterday, I understood that the refugees were not only in the area that

21 you secured but also in the building of the UN base itself; is that

22 correct?

23 A. There were also refugees in the building at the UN compound,

24 that's correct.

25 Q. It follows from your testimony that you spent the night of

Page 2349

1 the 12th in the compound. Did you see the refugees there?

2 A. I have no recollection of that. I just went into the compound,

3 spoke with my commander and with Major Franken, and after that, I went

4 straight to bed.

5 Q. Yes, but from your previous answer, I understood that you were

6 aware the refugees were also on the premises of the UN compound. But you

7 mean to say that when you came in, you didn't see them or you were certain

8 perhaps that they had already left?

9 A. No. From what I can remember now, the night of the 12th and

10 the 13th, there were still refugees on the camp. I only don't remember

11 seeing them there at that specific night.

12 Q. Do you know perhaps who secured the evacuation of that group of

13 refugees, the ones who were in the compound?

14 A. No. I don't know.

15 Q. Before you went on leave to the UN compound, you saw Mane's unit

16 lining up and leaving; is that correct?

17 A. I don't recall a lining up of Mane's unit. I saw Mane's unit

18 leaving, like Mane told me. After that I went to the compound, and on

19 that way I saw the roll-call I mentioned about with Stalin, the person

20 Stalin, heading it.

21 Q. All right. That's what I meant, but they did leave, in any event,

22 because on the next day, when you came, they were no longer there?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Did you observe if any unit of the army of Republika Srpska

25 remained in Potocari overnight?

Page 2350

1 A. I haven't seen that and I didn't hear any report from Lieutenant

2 Koster about that as well.

3 Q. And of course, you have no information that any of the VRS

4 soldiers came into the UN compound and moved among the refugees during

5 that night?

6 A. No. I don't have any information about that, no.

7 Q. Thank you. I would like to show you another document now, a

8 Defence document.

9 [In English] 4 D17. It's also on B/C/S pending translation. Yes.

10 That's the document.

11 [Interpretation] I suppose you do not understand the language but

12 let me tell you what is written there, and the interpreters are always

13 here to confirm. In the left-hand corner it says: "Republic of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, army General Staff." The number of the document is

15 indicated, date, 12th July 1995. And it says it was either sent or

16 received at 1325 hours, and it is addressed to the President of the

17 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, via the 1st Corps

18 command, commanded by Brigade General Mustafa Hajrulahovic Talijan [In

19 English] the signature and the stamp. [Interpretation] The author of this

20 document is Chief of Staff, Brigade General Enver Hadzihasanovic.

21 Can we now move back to page 1, please?

22 So, I'm interested in one sentence in particular. It

23 reads: "They organised an attack at Potocari. Tonight, around 2300

24 hours, we had 15 to 20.000 refugees who were sitting in the area of combat

25 activities, together with 300 fighters of the BH army on the camp in

Page 2351

1 Potocari."

2 I suppose that you did not have an opportunity to see this

3 document before. But this reference to 300 combatants of the BH army in

4 the camp at Potocari, is it consistent with your experience, at least in

5 terms of the number? Is it possible, likely correct, that among the men

6 who were there, there were 300 combatants?

7 A. I have never seen this document before, but the numbers that are

8 mentioned, also the 15 to 20.000 refugees on the camp, seems -- and also

9 the 300 fighters of the BH army seems incorrect to me.

10 Q. But if we look at the number of men of military age, fit for the

11 army that you saw there, you will agree that there were more than 300?

12 A. I have never seen men or any other refugees during the night on

13 the 12th or the 13th, and I don't recall that they were fighters of the

14 BH army. When you look at the total of men that I saw on the two days,

15 and the men that were singled out, that must resemble more than 300, 350

16 men.

17 Q. But in your book, as a professional soldier, what does this

18 term "fighter" represent?

19 A. The term "fighter" is not frequently used. The term that is being

20 used is "military man." And there are distinct definitions for that, like

21 wearing a uniform and being in a military unit. So this is basically the

22 definition of "military man." But the term "fighter" is not being used by

23 me or in the Dutch army.

24 Q. All right. But in that case, let's reformulate it. Let's say

25 member of a military unit. You just said the outward signs of such a man

Page 2352

1 are the uniform he wears and the weapon he carries. Is that correct?

2 A. The Dutch definition doesn't speak about a weapon but that could

3 be part of a definition.

4 Q. All right. And if a Dutch soldier would discard his weapon, take

5 off his uniform and put on civilian clothes, would he thereby cease to be

6 a soldier of the Dutch army in an attempt to avoid capture?

7 A. He would still be a soldier of the Dutch army.

8 Q. Thank you. That is precisely what I wanted to know.

9 One more point in regard to this document: This reference that

10 there are some 300 fighting men among the civilians in Potocari, this

11 information, it had to come from somewhere in the area, from the spot,

12 from the 28th Division. How otherwise could have the -- could the

13 1st Corps command have found out about it, to inform the Presidency?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. All right. And finally, I would like to take up one more subject

16 that you covered in your testimony, the issue of passports. You said

17 yesterday you found them on the lawn outside the "White House" and the

18 passports belonged to the men seated inside the house. It's page 71,

19 lines 11 through 16 in the transcript. Do you recall that part of your

20 testimony?

21 A. Yes. I recall that.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can the witness be shown Exhibit 4 D36? It's in

24 English version page 8, paragraph 8. Yes. And for the benefit of our

25 clients, in B/C/S it's page 7, paragraph 7.

Page 2353

1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this is the statement you gave to the

2 investigators of the ICTY. I have shown it to you before. You confirmed

3 it was yours. The date is 25 October 1995.

4 Please look at paragraph 8. It says: "[In English] Scattered all

5 over the field near the bus station, I saw personal property belonging to

6 the Muslim people. There were passports and other papers lying around

7 everywhere."

8 [Interpretation] You've already said that this statement you gave

9 was true and correct and given to the best of your recollection, and you

10 also said that you had no corrections to make except the ones that I have

11 already mentioned. So you stand by this statement, that passports were

12 lying in the field next to the bus station?

13 A. That may have been my recollection at that time, that I also spoke

14 about passports. At this time I don't have any recollection of seeing

15 passports at the bus station area, only when we speak about the "White

16 House." But it could also be something, when it comes to making up the

17 report, which is not made by me but by the person that interviewed me.

18 Q. Are you trying to say that something was put in your statement

19 that you did not say?

20 A. I don't have any recollection of mentioning passports then, but it

21 could be that my recollection then also meant passports.

22 If I think back now, I don't remember any other passports than the

23 passports that were in front of the lawn at the "White House."

24 Q. This was in October 1995, when your memory was very fresh. It was

25 just after the events. Do you agree that your recollection was better in

Page 2354

1 1995 than now, 11 years later?

2 A. It could be better then. It is true that the memory was fresher

3 than it is now, yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Just to identify that location that we mentioned here,

5 approximately how far is the bus station from the "White House"?

6 A. I think this is not more than 150, 200 metres.

7 Q. And that is on the other side of the asphalt road, isn't it?

8 A. It's on the opposite side than the side of the UN compound.

9 Q. Thank you. So we could conclude from this that passports --

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, there seems to be

11 some misunderstanding in the transcript. Did you say it was on the

12 opposite side of the UN base or at the same side where the UN base was?

13 A. No. It's on the opposite side than the side of the UN compound.

14 I'm speaking about the "White House."

15 Q. [Interpretation] Yes, I understand the "White House" was on the

16 other side, but the question here was about the bus station. Was the bus

17 station on the same side as the UN compound or not?

18 A. My recollection, the bus station was on the same side as the

19 UN compound.

20 Q. Yes. I agree. We just need to get that straight in the

21 transcript.

22 So we can conclude from this that those passports were scattered

23 over a larger area, not only outside the "White House"? Would you accept

24 that?

25 A. It could be so that in other locations this were also passports.

Page 2355

1 Q. You said yesterday at one point that you collected the passports

2 you found and put them in your pockets. Can you tell me approximately how

3 many passports you gathered?

4 A. Until my pockets were full, so that must have been 20 or 25

5 passports.

6 Q. Yes. We have seen footage of you at that time wearing shorts and

7 that seems to be the maximum number you could fit into your pockets. But

8 when you picked up the passports, did you open them to see to whom they

9 belonged?

10 A. I've opened a few, yes.

11 Q. So you opened some but not the 20 or the 25 you collected. Is

12 that your testimony?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And when you opened the passports, were all the passport holders,

15 so to say, men?

16 A. In my recollection, that was the case, yes.

17 Q. All right. And these few passports that you did open belonged to

18 men. Did you personally know any of them?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. So you did not know anyone. You did not enter the "White House"

21 at any point, you didn't go in?

22 A. I just had a look inside.

23 Q. So you looked inside without entering?

24 A. Yes, that's the case.

25 Q. So when you looked inside, did you recognise anyone? Did any of

Page 2356

1 the faces you saw -- I mean, were any of the faces you saw familiar?

2 A. No, they were not.

3 Q. So you do not know the identity of the persons found inside

4 the "White House" when you looked inside?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. And your statement yesterday that the passports you found belonged

7 to the men who were inside the "White House" is just your assumption,

8 right? You do not know that for a fact.

9 A. I remember person telling me, I don't remember who it was, but

10 that the personal belongings in front of the "White House" were in fact of

11 the men in the "White House."

12 Q. But you cannot claim that with any certainty because you don't

13 know who the men inside the "White House" were and you don't know whose

14 passports you held?

15 A. The only thing I know that when I confronted Mane with the story

16 about the passports is that he confirmed to me that the people inside the

17 house did not need the passports anymore.

18 Q. We'll come back to Mane but for the moment, I want to clarify

19 this. You don't know whether the passports in your pockets, only several

20 of which you actually opened, belonged to any of the men in

21 the "White House"?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered that. He told you that all he can tell

23 is someone, he can't remember who, told him that. So --

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And just one more question in relation to these passports. You

Page 2357

1 also cannot know if the persons from whose passports they were, threw away

2 these passports themselves, lost them or perhaps were ordered by the

3 Serbian soldiers to throw them away and that's what they did. So you were

4 not there when these passports were actually discarded. Is that right?

5 A. That is right. I was not there at the time.

6 Q. Precisely. Major Van Duijn, we heard testimony here from certain

7 Muslim witnesses who said that many amongst them threw away their personal

8 documents in order to avoid being identified by the Serbian soldiers. Did

9 you know about that? Do you know anything about that?

10 A. No. I don't know anything about that.

11 Q. Very well. During your testimony yesterday, you said that at one

12 point you asked Captain Mane about these passports and that he just

13 frowned and said that they would no longer be needing the passports. And

14 you practically repeated that just now.

15 I would like us now to look once again at the statement you gave

16 to the Prosecutor on the 25th of October, 1995. This is page 8, last

17 paragraph, and the beginning of page 9.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. I notice Mr. Thayer standing.

19 What's the problem?

20 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, this may be a translation issue, but I

21 don't believe that that accurately reflects the testimony that he gave

22 yesterday with respect to Captain Mane's response to him.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: He is going to read out, however, from the

24 transcript, isn't he?

25 MR. THAYER: I thought it was going to be a statement, not the

Page 2358

1 testimony, Your Honour, that's --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I actually first said -- I

4 actually carried out -- well, I actually referred to the transcript of the

5 27th of September, on page 92, in order to just tell the witness when it

6 was that he said that, but since the witness now again talked about this

7 incident with the passports and Captain Mane, I just wanted to then go

8 back to the statement of the 25th of October, 1995.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You can go, certainly can go back to the statement,

10 if you want to, but please either make it available to the witness or, if

11 it's a short excerpt, read it out slowly so that it can be translated.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: This document is already on the screen so perhaps

13 we could --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the same one.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Major Van Duijn, you see yourself the last paragraph of your

17 statement, and it talks about your departure to the "White House." "[In

18 English] At that moment I was standing about five metres away" --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's the end of page 8.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: It was too quick for me.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you go back.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: From the house.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So the last sentence of that -- of the

24 last paragraph reads precisely that. "At that moment I was standing about

25 five metres away from the house."

Page 2359

1 And then do you want to move to page 9, Mr. Lazarevic?

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. And then on page 9, first paragraph. "I

3 asked one of the soldiers if the men did not need their belongings

4 anymore. He replied that the belongings were not longer needed. I did

5 not ask any more question about this at the time, but I suspect that these

6 men were killed."

7 Q. [Interpretation] The statement that you gave to the Prosecutor and

8 which I just quoted to you suggests that you talked about this not with

9 Captain Mane but with a soldier who is referred to here as another -- or

10 one of the soldiers, one of the Serb soldiers. Do you agree with that?

11 A. At the time this statement was made up, the story about the

12 passports was not as interesting or was not focused on in detail more than

13 later on, so this is just some sort of a general overview over the

14 incident as it happened at the "White House."

15 Q. Yes. But in 1995, in October, you already knew who Captain Mane

16 was; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. And if I'm not mistaken, you mentioned him as Captain Mane at

19 least 15 times in the statement you gave to the Prosecutor's Office; is

20 this correct?

21 A. I did not count the number of times, but I must be sure that --

22 I'm sure that I mentioned his name in the statement, yes.

23 Q. But here, in this part where you talked about your suspicion that

24 those people would be killed, you said "one of the soldiers." You do not

25 mention Captain Mane by name, do you?

Page 2360

1 A. I may have named him during the interview but for one reason or

2 another it's not in this report.

3 Q. Do you think that the investigators of The Hague Tribunal who

4 interviewed you would omit such an important detail, that it was Captain

5 Mane that was being talked about? Or, rather, that you had said it was

6 Captain Mane and that they had written down "one of the soldiers"?

7 A. I don't have an explanation why this is in generic terms. I only

8 know that later on in the process, the story about the passports and

9 the "White House" was more focused on in detail and then all the names and

10 details were spread out in other reports.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, is it time for a break?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I was going to point that out to you.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I only have another 15 minutes, not more than

14 this.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will have a 25-minute break starting from

16 now. And then it's your turn, Madam Fauveau. How much time do you

17 require? Initially you had indicated an hour and a half.

18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] 45 minutes, I believe.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So -- and after that, I don't think

20 we'll finish today anyway, which means you'll need to come again tomorrow

21 but I promise you it will all be over tomorrow.

22 So 25 minutes from now. Thank you.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.11 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.41 p.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

Page 2361

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Major Van Duijn, you know where we left off, more

3 or less, but during the break my attention was drawn to the fact that some

4 things were not quite clear in the transcript, so I just wanted to clarify

5 a couple of those points that the Prosecution drew my attention to.

6 The first thing was, when we talked about the changes that you put

7 in your statement when you were working to prepare for this testimony, and

8 when you said that the 13th should be changed to the 14th, could you

9 actually confirm that it was actually the other way around, that it

10 says 14th in the statement but that the actual events, according to you,

11 took place on the 13th? Could you please confirm that?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. Thank you very much. The other change, or rather, I think it's

14 probably a question of the interpretation, when I quoted your statement, I

15 did it in B/C/S, and the interpretation we received did not quite

16 correspond to the transcript in English, so I would like to read to you

17 again the part of your testimony in English. This is page 72, lines 10

18 and 11.

19 In response to a question by the Prosecutor -- "[In English] ...

20 Mane say to you in response to that?"

21 And your answer was: "Basically he grinned at me and he told me

22 that the men don't need the passports anymore."

23 So this is the part of the transcript that I was referring to.

24 [Interpretation] Do you agree that that's how it was?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 2362

1 Q. Thank you very much. Since we are on the topic of the passports

2 now, from your testimony I understood that you were working on the

3 security aspect, that your duties were security duties at Schiphol

4 airport; is that correct?

5 A. I had multiple jobs or assignments on Schiphol airport, and one of

6 them was -- or the last one was being in charge of the criminal

7 investigation.

8 Q. Actually, this question precedes the following question. You as

9 any educated person know that the primary purpose of a passport is to

10 travel abroad; is that correct? That is the main reason why a person

11 would have a passport, right?

12 A. It is also for identification purposes.

13 Q. I agree with you absolutely, but the main means of identification

14 is an identity card, in Bosnia at least, at the time when you were there;

15 is that correct?

16 A. I'm not aware of the Bosnian system. I only know that in the

17 Netherlands we use either a passport or an identity card.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go to the point, Mr. Lazarevic, please.


20 Q. [Interpretation] And if someone does not have a passport with them

21 but does have an identity card, that would be quite sufficient to identify

22 that person, wouldn't it?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Thank you very much. I have no more questions on this topic.

25 Now I would like to go back once again to Captain Mane. We ended

Page 2363

1 before the break by talking about your statement where two Serbian

2 soldiers are mentioned. However, after this statement, you gave a

3 statement to the Parliamentary Commission of the Kingdom of the

4 Netherlands. On page 22, paragraph 8 of the B/C/S version, and this is on

5 page 27, paragraph 4 of the English version, you said as follows. "[In

6 English] Our exhibit number 4 D38, it's page 27 -- well, it's fourth

7 paragraph.

8 [Interpretation] I am now going to read to you what happened. In

9 response to a question by Mrs. Huizinga-Heringa: "[In English] What was

10 his reaction?"

11 And your answer was: "I asked him what he was going to do with

12 the Muslim men. He gave me the same story, that they intend interrogating

13 them to find out whether there were any war criminals amongst them. Then

14 I put it to him that if there are no passports, men could give false names

15 and that the story about checking the identities would no longer be

16 valid -- was no longer valid, sorry. He just laughed as if to say, What

17 are you getting -- 'What are you getting so excited about? They don't

18 need their passports anymore.' Other than that, he didn't give me any

19 further explanation."

20 [Interpretation] Major Van Duijn, from the answer you gave to

21 Mrs. Huizinga-Heringa's question, it transpires that Mane didn't tell you

22 anything but that he just laughed and that you interpreted that gesture of

23 his in the way it is stated in your statement to the Parliamentary

24 Commission. Very specific words were used here. "[In English] Other than

25 that he didn't give me any further explanation."

Page 2364

1 I apologise. I believe that the translation is not

2 correct. "Other than that he didn't give me any further explanation."

3 And we said: "He didn't say anything else to me." This is what I

4 received on B/C/S. As if I say -- as if to say.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if you want to go through it again for your

6 peace of mind, we can do that.


8 JUDGE AGIUS: But I don't see that much difference.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I'd like to do it again. Well, Your Honour,

10 I can explain. Well, the translation that we received in B/C/S said that

11 Mane -- "that that was everything that he told me," and here it says: "He

12 didn't give me any further explanation other than that," and it's

13 referring to the previous paragraph.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see your point. That's why --

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: That is it.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness obviously understood you but if the

17 translation into B/C/S --

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So you understood this. Based on this it transpires that he

20 didn't actually tell you anything but that you actually interpreted his

21 laugh or smile in the way that you did. Is that correct?

22 A. When you look at the transcripts of the parliamentary inquiry, you

23 could think that, but the laugh or grin from Captain Mane was if to say to

24 me, What are you getting so excited about, full stop. "They don't need

25 their passports anymore." That's what he said to me, and that is the only

Page 2365

1 explanation he gave me.

2 So when you read the transcripts of the parliamentary inquiry you

3 could think there was something else, that I assumed more than that but

4 that is not the case. I only assumed or interpreted his laugh or grin in

5 a way to say, What are you getting so excited about? The phrase "they

6 don't need their passports anymore," that's what he said to me.

7 Q. Just one second. This is a transcript of your hearing, so this is

8 not -- this is a verbatim transcript of what you said; is that correct?

9 This is not just some one conveying your words approximately.

10 A. No. It is an exact transcript, but I was not in charge of putting

11 the dots or the question marks in the report.

12 Q. Very well. Very well. I would just like to go back to a question

13 that I failed to put to you earlier. It's very brief.

14 When you talked about your position at 02, the defensive

15 position 02, you mentioned a group of fighters which passed by, and this

16 is on page 38 -- [In English] Page 39 row 1 of yesterday's transcript.

17 [Interpretation] Now I would like to just read to you what you

18 said. [Previous translation continues] ... "[In English] ... located at

19 0.02 we saw a big group of men going towards Susnjari, so leaving from

20 0.02 towards OP Mike, so the other direction, and we could see them

21 leaving, carrying small calibre weapons with them. Full stop. Men of all

22 sorts of age, even young boys and old men with them."

23 [Interpretation] I would just like to put two questions to you on

24 this particular topic. Can you approximately say when this happened, what

25 time did it happen?

Page 2366

1 A. It was the end of the afternoon. If I have to estimate a time it

2 must be around 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon, late afternoon.

3 Q. And just so that we could have a clear situation in the

4 transcript, what day was that?

5 A. That was the 11th.

6 Q. Can you approximately estimate the number of men that you saw

7 there? Can you tell us an approximate number?

8 A. If I have to make an estimation now, somewhere around 50, between

9 50 and 100 men.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we again look at a segment of

12 the video that we saw yesterday? This is Exhibit P02047, the segment

13 starting from 022451 up to 022455, so it's just a few seconds of the

14 material.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can we stop now?

17 Q. [Interpretation] Major, I think that yesterday we froze the

18 footage at this precise frame. You recognise Mane, you recognise the

19 interpreter Miki, and you are also in the shot. Can you see the subtitles

20 on this frame, where they say, "And to check and see whether anybody wants

21 to go. It's their job."

22 Since we cannot determine from the subtitles who is saying what,

23 whose words they are, can you please confirm the following? These words

24 are directed by Captain Mane to the interpreter Miki, is that right, so

25 that he could interpret them to you. Is that the right interpretation of

Page 2367

1 what we are seeing here?

2 A. From what I saw in the video clipping, that is the correct course

3 of events.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want to -- a couple of seconds, I think it

6 will be clearer. Because you hear a voice calling Miki and then it

7 continues from there.

8 [Videotape played]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's clear enough.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I think so.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mane says to Miki to tell you that you should see whether there

14 was anyone else who wished to leave. Does this refer to the refugees who

15 were there?

16 A. If I read the subtitles, it would refer to the refugees but if I

17 remember correctly, this phrase was not translated to me by Miki.

18 Q. No. Thank you. So it's more or less what's being said. But

19 actually what I'm interested in is that you did have problems with

20 interpretation, especially when this man named Miki was interpreting?

21 A. I don't have a way to control if Miki was telling exactly what

22 Mane was -- wanted to tell to me because I don't speak Serbo-Croatian.

23 Q. Right. So you're saying you can't be 100 per cent sure that what

24 Miki said was perfectly exactly interpreted by -- sorry, that what Mane

25 said was perfectly interpreted by Miki?

Page 2368

1 A. No, I don't have to have a way or did not have a way there to

2 control it, but I'm sure that if things would go in a different way than

3 Mane wanted, he would have objected and would have told Miki that he

4 wanted it otherwise. But I don't have a way to control if it was the

5 exact or perfect translation what Mane wanted.

6 Q. Thank you. That's all I wanted to know on this subject.

7 On the 13th of July, 1995, in Potocari, at some point there

8 occurred a break in the evacuation; is that right?

9 A. That is correct, yes.

10 Q. I would like to show you again a part of your testimony before the

11 Parliamentary Commission of the Kingdom of the Netherlands [Previous

12 translation continues] ... [In English] 24, paragraph -- well, it's 4 or 5

13 because there is a question again by Ms. Huizinga-Heringa.

14 [Interpretation] The lady asked you: "Can you explain what

15 happened exactly?"

16 [In English] And your answer was: "After Lieutenant Rutten had

17 tackled me, he started talking to the Serbian soldiers, in which he said,

18 'This is like what happened 50 years ago with the Nazis.' The Serbs got

19 the idea that they were being branded as Nazis. They thought this was

20 unacceptable. That was why one of them pointed out that his father had

21 fought with the Serbian troops with Tito against the Nazis. I got Colonel

22 Kremer to escort Lieutenant Rutten back to the camp. Then I was

23 controlled -- confronted, sorry, by the Serbian commander asking me, 'Why

24 do you brand us as Nazis?' The result of all this was that the

25 transportation had to be stopped for one and a half hours. Because of

Page 2369

1 this, our soldiers have to intervene because people had collapsed at

2 temperature of about 30 degrees Celsius. This caused a lot of problems."

3 [Interpretation] Do you stand by what you said before the

4 Parliamentary Commission in every respect?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And at one point after this incident, and after this interruption

7 of about 90 minutes, the evacuation resumed. On whose initiative was it

8 resumed?

9 A. On Mane's initiative.

10 Q. Yes. But Major, Mane was the one who was offended and didn't want

11 to have anything more to do with it; whereas you were the person who

12 removed Lieutenant Rutten from the place in order to continue with the

13 evacuation. Isn't that the case?

14 A. I had Lieutenant Rutten removed from the site to prevent that

15 things would worsen for us, but of course eventually for the refugees. So

16 in -- the course of events was that I had Lieutenant Rutten removed.

17 After that, had to explain to Mane and his men why this all had happened,

18 and after that, Mane was satisfied and he decided to go on again with the

19 process of transports.

20 Q. All right. But this apology and this explanation you gave to

21 Mane, it was aimed at continuing the evacuation, wasn't it? That was the

22 purpose.

23 A. Yes. Because the stopping of the evacuation Mane ordered caused a

24 lot of problems and people collapsing through the heat or dehydration and

25 was causing more people to suffer.

Page 2370

1 Q. I do not doubt your good intentions for a moment. Anyway, the

2 evacuation continued. But on the 13th July, the morning, before VRS

3 soldiers arrived, between 6.00 and 8.30, let's say, you decided yourself

4 to continue with the evacuation of refugees. Is that correct?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. You have already responded to my colleague Mr. Zivanovic that it

7 was a convoy that included 100, 150 men.

8 My question is this: Was there anything standing in your way if

9 you wanted to use all the vehicles available there for the transport of

10 men of military age, and only men, if you had wanted to?

11 A. That could have been an option but the main reason was to keep

12 families together, and families consist of more than only men.

13 Q. Yes, I agree. That is also a possible explanation.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let us now see a brief footage

15 [Previous translation continues] ... [In English] ... 14, starts at 2110

16 and it lasts until 2116, and it bears 65 ter number P02007.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can we stop now?

19 Q. [Interpretation] Do you perhaps recognise this soldier standing in

20 front of the bus while women and children are getting in?

21 A. No, I don't recognise him.

22 Q. And does this sleeve patch mean anything to you, the one he's

23 wearing?

24 A. Not as I see it now, no.

25 Q. [In English] Thank you, Major. I have no further questions for

Page 2371

1 you. Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Lazarevic.

3 Madam Fauveau?

4 Madam Fauveau represents General Miletic, and she will be

5 cross-examining.

6 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Major, is it fair to say that during your tour in

8 the Srebrenica enclave you were able to go on leave?

9 A. Yes, I was.

10 Q. Is it also true to say that you were able to return to the

11 enclave?

12 A. For me personally, that was possible, yes.

13 Q. You mentioned the supplies for the DutchBat. Do you know how

14 often there were orders made by the DutchBat?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. Therefore, you don't actually know whether all the convoys that

17 were supposed to come did arrive in the enclave?

18 A. I heard from, for instance, Lieutenant Koster, that was working in

19 the logistics branch that a lot of the convoys that were supposed to come

20 were prevented from coming, but I don't know numbers or figures to the

21 extent how many convoys that were.

22 Q. I also suppose that you don't know which items had been ordered

23 when orders had been made.

24 A. No. That was not my job.

25 Q. You stated yesterday that you exchanged coffee against bread.

Page 2372

1 Where did the coffee come from?

2 A. We still had some old amounts of coffee stacked on the OPs, which

3 was undrinkable for us but the refugees liked it.

4 Q. Apart from coffee, did you exchange other items with the

5 population?

6 A. I'm not aware of that, no.

7 Q. Is it true to say that most of the time, when you were in the

8 enclave, you were on OPs Q and R?

9 A. My main location was the compound in Potocari, and I think maybe

10 one-third of the time I was on the OPs Quebec and Romeo, yes.

11 Q. Could you tell me when you were on these two observation posts?

12 A. On several occasions, I've been there, either to resupply or to

13 visit the two of my groups that were stationed there, so that was a weekly

14 or two-weekly visit, and next to that I also spent multiple weeks there to

15 stay with my troops, but I don't know the exact dates.

16 Q. But wasn't it the policy of the DutchBat to supply as little as

17 possible to the people on the observation posts?

18 A. The resupplying of the observation posts was hindered by the lack

19 of fuel, and because my OPs were more or less within walking distance, of

20 four hours, five hours, we could keep on resupplying every week or every

21 two weeks, but other observation posts that were situated further away

22 from the main camp were resupplied on less occasions.

23 Q. You mentioned the lack of fuel, but did the -- the UNHCR had its

24 fuel stocked in the UNPROFOR compound in Potocari, didn't it?

25 A. I don't know about the UNHCR fuel supply.

Page 2373

1 Q. Earlier on you stated that the authorisation for convoys were

2 given on the Yellow Bridge which was close to OP P. Could you tell us who

3 held this OP -- or, rather, who was on the Yellow Bridge where the

4 authorisations were granted?

5 A. The person that was well known figure for occupying the post we

6 knew as Yellow Bridge was a person with the name of Jovo, but he was not

7 in control because he was always getting through orders from a different

8 level, and I don't know from which level or who gave Jovo orders.

9 Q. Do you know whether Jovo was a representative of the civilian or

10 military authorities?

11 A. No, I don't know.

12 Q. When you said that the authorisations were given on the

13 Yellow Bridge, does that mean that the convoys would arrive up to there,

14 up to the Yellow Bridge?

15 A. I've heard from some incidents where convoys came a long way on

16 the route they had to take to the compound, but I don't know of a specific

17 convoys that were stopped at Yellow Bridge or at another location, only

18 that they were stopped somewhere along the route.

19 Q. And when convoys would reach the Yellow Bridge, before they did

20 so, did they also have to cross somewhere the territory of

21 Republika Srpska?

22 A. I'm not aware of the route the convoys took.

23 Q. Do you know where they originated from?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Yesterday you mentioned weapons and the munitions you had in the

Page 2374

1 DutchBat. Page 29 you said that they were too old. Isn't it true to say

2 that weapons and munitions were brought in together with DutchBat I into

3 the enclave?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Therefore, the weapons had been there since end of 1993 or early

6 1994, right?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Weren't they rather new, these weapons?

9 A. When you work with weapons and you use them very intensely, and

10 you have to maintain them, of course, when you look at the changing

11 weather conditions, extreme weather conditions, weapons and ammunition

12 have the tendency to reduce their usability rather fast.

13 Q. You say that weapons and munitions were used intensively, could

14 you tell me, if you know, whether DutchBat III or II or I did use their

15 arms extensively and for what purposes they did, if they did?

16 A. The use of your firearms is more than only shooting. If you carry

17 it with you the whole day, which was our policy, then of course the weapon

18 is getting dirty, with sand, with other dirt, so you have to clean it, you

19 have to oil it. The rain, the snow, the cold, the heat, everything works

20 into the metal of the weapons. And like I said, if you carry it around

21 you, along you with it the whole day, then they suffer.

22 Q. Do you know what the life expectancy of a light weapon is?

23 A. No, I'm not an expert on that.

24 Q. When you were stationed in observation post Q and R, did you have

25 an opportunity to see the Serbian forces cross into the enclave?

Page 2375

1 A. I did not have the opportunity myself, but I got reports from my

2 soldiers that sometimes there were crossings of the enclave borders.

3 Q. It is fair to say that you had knowledge according to which Muslim

4 forces would regularly get out of the enclave?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. And you also knew that the Muslim forces would carry out acts of

7 sabotage and laid mines outside the enclave, didn't you?

8 A. According to the stories the Muslim fighters told me, yes.

9 Q. Did you have contacts with the Muslim fighters, including Naser

10 Sabanovic, and do you know which unit he was in?

11 A. I've had contact with Naser Sabanovic. I don't recall which unit

12 it was, but it was the Muslim unit that was responsible for the north part

13 of the enclave.

14 Q. And do you know where the HQ of the unit was?

15 A. No, I don't know.

16 Q. On the 10th and the 11th of July, when you were on this blocking

17 position, were you able to see the Srebrenica inhabitants?

18 A. Yes. I could see the refugees walking alongside us or passing us

19 on their way to the north.

20 Q. And you also were able to see military men from the army of Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. Were the civilian population and the military mixed, as it were?

24 A. No. They were not mixed. The refugees were fleeing to the north,

25 and at the time of the 10th and early of the 11th, the Muslim forces

Page 2376

1 were -- or moving south or staying in the vicinity of the blocking

2 positions and basically my location.

3 Q. Is it fair to say that at that time the members of the ABiH were

4 blocking your positions and would not allow you to leave?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. And around that time, is that around that time that you were

7 involved with fighting with Serbs?

8 A. During the 10th and the 11th, we were stationed at that blocking

9 position, and during the whole time, there was shooting going on, so I

10 don't know exactly what you mean with "involved with fighting with Serbs."

11 Q. I will be more specific. Did you not at a given point in time

12 shoot directly at the Serbian forces?

13 A. At a certain period, I gave my gunner the order to first shoot

14 overhead if he saw forces coming over the hill, and after that, there was

15 the intent to first shoot overhead and later on if they would not stop,

16 shoot directly. And my gunner did that, he shot.

17 Q. Yesterday you stated that at a certain point you left towards the

18 compound in Srebrenica where there were refugees and where there was a

19 climate or an atmosphere of chaos. Is it true to say that a lot of

20 refugees were trying to climb on the UN trucks and vehicles in order to go

21 to Potocari?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. Next to that a lot of people were trying to

23 leave themselves by all means or carrying their stuff themselves or using

24 horses or donkeys to carry their personal belongings.

25 Q. And some of these people who were trying to climb on the UN

Page 2377

1 vehicles and trucks, did they fall off the vehicles?

2 A. When you talk about the trucks and -- I don't know, I wouldn't

3 know. But at a certain stage, and now I'm talking about the two APCs

4 under my command, a few people fell off the other APC, not my APC but the

5 other APC that was under my command. A few people fell off of that APC,

6 yes.

7 Q. And did you know that some of the people who fell off the vehicles

8 were run over and killed by the vehicles?

9 A. No. I have no knowledge about that. And at that time, the

10 incident I'm speaking about, that did not happen.

11 Q. You spoke about the 12th of July, 1995, and you stated the men who

12 were separated were taken to a house which had no front. Could this house

13 be described as a house under construction?

14 A. It depends what you define as under construction, but it was clear

15 to me that the house had no facade.

16 Q. And on the 12th of July, 1995, how many men roughly did you see in

17 that house?

18 A. The 12th, the house with the lawn, we are speaking about then,

19 that was the place where the men were gathered, the men that were singled

20 out, roughly at the end of the day somewhere between 50 and 75 men were

21 sitting on the lawn and not in the house.

22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown document

23 7 D51, please. Page 7, third paragraph from the bottom of the page.

24 Q. Can you see the last sentence in that paragraph? It reads as

25 follows: "[In English] I saw about 15 Muslim men sitting in the house and

Page 2378

1 in the garden."

2 A. Yes, I can see it.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember stating this in 1995, on the 25th

4 of October, 1995? You then stated that you had seen 15 Muslim men sitting

5 in the house and in the garden.

6 A. I don't remember making that statement. I know that this is my

7 statement, but you asked me to make an estimation from the top of my mind.

8 Q. Could it be that the estimate you gave in 1995 was closer to the

9 truth than the estimate you now make?

10 A. I think that the total amount of men that were around the two

11 houses must be somewhere in the middle, between 15 and 50.

12 Q. Is it true that on the 13th of July the men were taken to another

13 house, which was opposite, across the road, from the UN compound?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. That's the house we knew as the "White

15 House."

16 Q. Just to make it clear, the house with no facade, no front wall,

17 and the "White House," are two separate houses; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Is it fair to say that on the 12th of July you did not see men

20 being taken to the "White House"?

21 A. No, I did not see it, and it was not reported to me at the 12th

22 either.

23 Q. Yesterday you stated that when you saw men being separated and

24 when you would intervene, the men for whom you would intervene were

25 allowed to leave with their families; is that correct?

Page 2379

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. Therefore, your action had a positive influence on the men -- on

3 the Serbs, sorry, who were trying to separate the men?

4 A. In the cases I intervened, then it was clear that the men that

5 were being singled out were too young or too old, or it was clear that

6 they could not have been soldiers during the war. So -- and I was glad

7 that I could -- when I intervened Mane would take over this advice and the

8 men could stay with their families, yes.

9 Q. On the night of the 12th to the 13th of July, you left to have a

10 rest. Is that true that during the night you did not hear any major

11 firing?

12 A. During the night, I was sleeping.

13 Q. And is it fair to say that the day after, in the morning of the

14 13th of July, when you arrived there where the refugees were, your

15 colleague Koster told you that throughout the night there was no Serb

16 around?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Earlier on today you said that you proceeded to the evacuation of

19 the population in the absence of Serbs. I'd like to know this: When the

20 Serbs did arrive, can it be said that they had nothing against the

21 refugees being boarded on buses, before they had arrived?

22 A. I don't think they had any objection to that. They were more

23 surprised that we already started.

24 Q. Is it correct that on the 12th of July you addressed the Serbs in

25 order to get bread and water for the refugees?

Page 2380

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And can it be said that the Serbs did provide bread and water

3 afterwards?

4 A. I heard reports that some bread and water were provided by the

5 Serbs, yes.

6 Q. Can it be said that you personally did not witness any

7 mistreatment by the Serbs in Potocari?

8 A. I did not personally see any direct mistreatment, other than I

9 already mentioned concerning the boy that was almost strangled and the

10 threatening of my interpreter. But other than that, there were no

11 specific mistreatments I witnessed myself.

12 Q. Regarding the way your interpreter was mistreated, is it right to

13 say that it is your interpreter who reported to you the threatening words

14 that had been addressed to him?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And you, indeed, do not know at all what was said in Serbo-Croat?

17 A. No. I have no understanding of Serbo-Croatian, no.

18 Q. Is it right to say that the quick evacuation of the people from

19 Potocari was the only solution for the population?

20 A. At that time, when all the refugees were gathered at the factory

21 sites, from that moment on, there was no other solution there than to

22 evacuate them because, like I said before, there were -- there was a big

23 possibility that epidemics would break out, people had no food, no water,

24 and the temperature was very high. So from that moment on, there was no

25 other solution, that's correct.

Page 2381

1 Q. And is it also correct to say that the people would rush towards

2 the cars -- the buses, sorry, when they arrived?

3 A. The Muslim people were also eager to leave, yes.

4 Q. And none of them were forced to board the buses, were they?

5 A. I have no information about that, no. Other than the reports of

6 some kicking or abusing of people that wanted to board the buses, but I

7 have no information if that was to force them into the buses or otherwise.

8 Q. At any rate, you did not see any one case of a person saying they

9 didn't want to go and they would have been forced to get into the bus?

10 A. No. I did not see that, no.

11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No further questions,

12 Mr. President.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci, Madam Fauveau.

14 Mr. Josse, how long do you expect to be cross-examining the

15 witness?

16 MR. JOSSE: 20 minutes approximately, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And Mr. Haynes, or Mr. Sarapa, I don't know

18 who will --

19 MR. HAYNES: Hard to say. I've been crossing off questions as

20 they've gone along, but about 45 minutes at the moment.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So we are into tomorrow.

22 So, yes, Mr. Josse, please go ahead.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:

24 Q. Just following on from the last set of questions that my learned

25 friend Madam Fauveau has just asked you, it's right, isn't it, that in

Page 2382

1 your original debriefing of the 13th of September, 1995, there was a

2 pro forma question saying, treatment of civilians, refugees, and your

3 answer was: "As far as he could tell, reasonably good."

4 Do you remember that?

5 A. I don't have a recollection of that. I think it's better to see

6 the document first.

7 Q. My apologies, I don't have the number. It was shown to you

8 earlier and I'm about to be given it again, I'm glad to say.

9 I'll come back to that, if I may, because in the same document,

10 and I don't think you're going to need to see it for this purpose, you

11 make reference to the fact that present in the enclave were two members of

12 the British SAS, one called Jim, one called Dave, and they -- you didn't

13 know what their orders were but you had heard that they were serving as

14 liaison officers of sorts and that General Smith was in direct contact

15 with them. Any recollection about that, Major?

16 A. I remember that, yes.

17 Q. And I think you stated that you viewed -- I beg your pardon, that

18 DutchBat viewed them as busybodies inside the unit.

19 A. A few persons in the battalion staff I'd heard about, felt it like

20 this, yes.

21 Q. And the information that they were there liaising directly with

22 General Smith came from where; do you know?

23 A. No, I don't recall.

24 Q. Do you have any knowledge of members of DutchBat crossing into

25 Serb-held territory and, in effect, giving themselves up at about the time

Page 2383

1 that the unfortunate injury to Private Van Renssen occurred?

2 A. No. I have no knowledge of that, no.

3 Q. I'll move on, then. On the 10th of July, you were in Srebrenica

4 all day; is that correct?

5 A. I was at the blocking positions, that's correct, yes.

6 Q. And excuse my ignorance, does that place you in and around Bravo

7 Company?

8 A. At that time, I was under the command of Captain Groen, who was

9 commander of the Bravo Company, yes.

10 Q. And physically, were you in and around the company headquarters?

11 A. Later on, at the 11th, I was near the company headquarters.

12 During the night from the 9th on the 10th, I drove to the headquarters of

13 Captain Groen to be briefed by him and from then, went on to the blocking

14 position. So at that time, I was further away from the company HQ that

15 was situated in Srebrenica town itself.

16 Q. And in terms of kilometres, the blocking position is how far from

17 the town?

18 A. Maybe, if I have to make an estimation now, maybe two, three

19 kilometres.

20 Q. And that's where you spent most of the daylight hours of the

21 10th of July?

22 A. The whole time until we retreated the 11th.

23 Q. You were asked some questions by my learned friend Mr. Lazarevic

24 about your understanding of the position on the 12th of July as to the

25 departure of the Muslim population of the enclave, and he asked you about

Page 2384

1 whether you had any knowledge of what had gone on at the Hotel Fontana,

2 and perhaps understandably you said you had no knowledge.

3 Specifically, what I'd like to ask you is whether it had come

4 through on your radio, either from Mr. Karremans or from Mr. Franken, that

5 some sort of message had been sent by General Nikolai to the effect that

6 the refugees needed to leave the enclave.

7 A. No, nothing was sent through the channels I had on my radio.

8 Q. So when you started to deal with the population on the 12th of

9 July, you had no knowledge as to what your command in Sarajevo or Tuzla

10 was saying as to what they thought should happen to these people?

11 A. Other than the previous order that we could only give humanitarian

12 aid. That was the only order that was given. Next to that, nothing.

13 Q. And just to be clear, that order in relation to humanitarian aid

14 had come from whom and when, please?

15 A. That had come on the morning, the early morning on the 11th

16 through Captain Groen. Excuse me, on the early morning of the 12th.

17 Q. And just, if I can press you a little further on this issue, on

18 the 12th of July, were you receiving any orders at all from either

19 Mr. Franken or Mr. Karremans?

20 A. No. I was into contact with the battalion operations room, and

21 sometimes talking to Colonel Franken, or Major Franken at the time, but no

22 specific orders were given then.

23 Q. I've very helpfully been provided with the document that I didn't

24 have to hand. I can see, in fact, it bears a number, it's 7 D55. So I'm

25 grateful to my learned friends who represent Mr. Pandurevic. It may not

Page 2385

1 be on the system so let me give you the document and I'll indicate to the

2 usher which page I'd like to go on to the ELMO.

3 JUDGE KWON: I think we can find it, 1 D31. Try it.

4 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Haynes, Your Honour, has just explained to me why

5 it's not on the system. I think it's because he's only just received a

6 B/C/S copy. He says he might have it on the system for tomorrow when he

7 cross-examines.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


10 Q. I'm asking that a specific page be put on the ELMO. You may want

11 to look at the rest of the document. Yes. Can we see, it says it looks

12 like a pro forma question, "Treatment of civilians/refugees," and your

13 answer appears to have been, "As far as he could tell, reasonably good."

14 I don't want to be unfair, but this appears from the debriefing to be a

15 general question in relation to the events that you were describing and

16 have been describing in the course of your evidence. Do you accept that?

17 A. Of course it's a general question but it has to be seen in the

18 light of the rest of the debriefing report.

19 Q. Whilst you've got the report there, since I asked you about it,

20 perhaps page 8 could be put on the ELMO as well, please. Little higher.

21 Lower part of it. That's it. It's, in fact, near the redacted -- the few

22 words that have been redacted. It's that paragraph. You said: "There

23 were also two members of the British SAS, Jim and Dave, inside the enclave

24 which the battalion had attached to 108."

25 Stopping there, perhaps you should explain to the Chamber what 108

Page 2386

1 means, please.

2 A. 108 was the unit that was used for reconnaissance unit. It was a

3 Dutch commando unit that was attached to DutchBat.

4 Q. "He," referring to you, "did not know what the orders of these SAS

5 members inside the enclave were. He had heard these SAS men served as

6 liaison officers of sorts for General Smith and were in direct contact

7 with him. DutchBat viewed them as busybodies inside the unit."

8 And you've already confirmed that that is the true position.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And for your information, the redacted part has been excised by

11 the Prosecution, presumably for some immunity-type reason.

12 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, that concludes my cross-examination.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Josse.

14 Mr. Haynes.

15 MR. HAYNES: I could ask two or three questions tonight or I could

16 do it all in one piece tomorrow morning. Frankly, I would prefer the

17 latter.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll make that sacrifice, Mr. Haynes.

19 MR. HAYNES: That's very, very kind of you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 Major, you'll be in the witness box tomorrow for approximately 40,

22 45 minutes and then you will be free to go.

23 And basically that means, Mr. McCloskey, you'll have the next

24 witness lined up?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry to tell you, Your Honour, we have been

Page 2387

1 going on the basis of the estimates and that witness is a bit of a ways

2 from here, and so he would have had to have here tonight and we did not

3 have him available.

4 I've been speaking to the Defence. They are happy -- well, they

5 were happy to have the time to prepare for him over the holiday but we did

6 not have him. We were -- weren't expecting it to end this quickly. I

7 apologise.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Well, we'll discuss that.

9 Major, have a nice evening. You'll return here tomorrow in the

10 morning. The sitting is in the morning at 9.00. So you should be out of

11 here by 10.00.

12 All right. Thank you.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.52 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Friday, the 29th day of

15 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.