1 Thursday, 19 October 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Could you kindly inform the
6 witness that he may have to wait a little bit until we process preliminary
7 issues that I was told we are to expect.
8 So, Madam Registrar, please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
10 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, ma'am. The accused are all here.
12 Defence teams seem to be okay, except for Mr. Sarapa is still not here.
13 And for the Prosecution, it's Mr. McCloskey, and Ms. Soljan.
14 I understand you have some preliminaries, both of you. Is that
16 Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. Good morning, Your Honour, that's correct.
18 May I proceed?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honours, I apologise for having to bring this
21 motion or oral request at this time, but it has been brought to our
22 attention late last night that -- and unfortunately it's a repeated
23 problem that we brought to the attention of the Court, and that's what we
24 believe, and most respectfully to the Prosecution, their continued
25 violation of this Court's order and 65 ter.
1 In this instance, however, it's not the same motion because we
2 believe it's somewhat a grosser violation because the Prosecutor in their
3 disclosures to the Court and through the EDS system lists eight documents
4 that they are going to use with three exhibits they're going to use with
5 the present witness, Mr. Egbers.
6 Yesterday at the conclusion of Mr. Egbers's testimony I confirmed
7 with the Madam Prosecutor who is leading the witness. She confirmed that
8 she's not going to play a video tomorrow which is not on her list of
9 disclosed documents. That was approximately 1.45 or so.
10 Yesterday afternoon at about 3.15, upon leaving for our visitation
11 with our client, we received a phone call that a video was going to be
12 played. Then late last night at approximately 7.45 we visited with the
13 Office of the Prosecutor, specifically both Mr. McCloskey and Madam
14 Soljan, if I'm saying it correctly. I apologise to her --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't even pronounce your own name correctly, so
16 I'm not surprised.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Pardon me?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't even pronounce your own name correctly.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, I thought my English was actually fairly good,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: But to say that Ostojic is Ostojic --
22 MR. OSTOJIC: I've been saying it that way for 45 years. So if
23 you'd like me to say Ostojic I will.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead Mr. Ostojic.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
1 But all kidding aside, Your Honour, it's a very serious request on
2 our behalf. It's a repeated violation. I know my fellow colleagues from
3 the Defence have raised it on numerous occasions. We have two pending
4 motions before the Court that we're waiting to get resolved on this
5 issue. We think this actually is a blatant and direct violation. Not
6 only do they fail to place it on the list of documents that they're going
7 to use with this witness, but after confirming -- just to repeat,
8 yesterday at the end of the day they confirmed they will not be using
9 video transcripts and it specifically relates to the identification, or
10 purported identification, of our client, Mr. Beara. We looked at that
11 video. We have other arguments on that I'd like to reserve them for our
12 reply anticipating what they may say in the response.
13 Again, I must stress that it's not because of an identification of
14 our client. This witness has identified him; we think poorly. We
15 disagree that he met Mr. Beara. We don't have to go into those
16 arguments. Hopefully we'll draw that through the cross-examination.
17 However, we think that the tactic used is what's the violation, and we
18 need to at least get some guidance from the Court as to how we're going to
19 proceed, and I think this may be an opportune time to set those guidelines
20 and restrict or prohibit the Prosecution from violating these guidelines
21 what I believe anyway is almost with every witness thus far.
22 Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Before you sit down, Mr. Ostojic, I'd
24 like you to articulate precisely which documents are you referring to,
25 because you mentioned initially eight documents and then you specifically
1 pointed out the video, and it's not yet clear in my mind whether the
2 Prosecution intends to make use of this video or not because initially
3 they said they would, then they said they wouldn't.
4 What's the position as you obtained it at 7.45 p.m. yesterday?
5 MR. OSTOJIC: That they will use the video that is not on their
6 disclosure documents.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. And the other documents, are
8 there any other documents --
9 MR. OSTOJIC: There is no other problem. These eight, they've
10 produced them timely, I believe.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So Ms. Soljan or Mr. McCloskey. I don't know. I
12 see you arguing amongst yourself who would --
13 MS. SOLJAN: I will go ahead, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
15 MS. SOLJAN: I believe this is more an issue of misunderstanding,
16 although I do fully accept the responsibility for not putting on the video
17 on the exhibit list. I only noticed that in the course of the day
18 yesterday. And then we indicated that as soon as we were aware of this to
19 the Defence for Mr. Beara, and indeed then in the evening at 7.45 showed
20 them a few times the excerpts of this video.
21 Now, for the record I can just indicate that this video is 65 ter
22 number 2025, and it is a video that is referred to in the April 30th,
23 2000, interview that Lieutenant Colonel Egbers had with the ICTY, the ERN
24 for that being 00946484. It's ERN V00-1957. That that video is in fact
25 mentioned within the statement, and there's a short description that
1 Mr. Egbers gives of Mr. Beara, identifying Mr. Beara in this video.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: But you will agree that the statement itself is not
3 part record or is not an exhibit.
4 MS. SOLJAN: The statement itself is not an exhibit, but it has
5 been offered, and the Defence has been on notice about all the statements,
6 ICTY statements of Mr. Egbers.
7 The video itself has a 65 ter number. It was disclosed on the
8 19th of December, 2005, and it was then -- and then the 65 ter list itself
9 was disclosed in April 2006 of this year.
10 So the Defence has been on notice about this. I do apologise
11 about the fact that this was not on the actual Prosecution exhibit list
12 that we gave to the Defence before Mr. Egbers went on. However, as
13 Defence for Mr. Beara itself, as Mr. Ostojic himself said, we don't
14 believe it's at dispute that Mr. Beara was identified by Colonel Egbers,
15 and we will not go into the -- into the details of that right now.
16 However, we thought it would be helpful for the Court to see in fact what
17 this tape was that identified him.
18 That is my submission at this time.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
20 Mr. Ostojic.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll try and be brief and to the point, Your Honour.
22 If you look at their 65 disclosures under 2025, under the section
23 of description it states: "Krstic and Kovacevic in Potocari, Jovovic at
24 Motorola, or on Motorola." It doesn't mention Mr. Beara at all.
25 Second and most important point, the identification with this
1 video. We've looked at that video, and we've tried to analyse that video.
2 If nothing, without arguing but I'll have to, it's suggestive. It was an
3 improper photo line-up by the Prosecution. This witness attempts at least
4 seven or eight times and only after the seventh and eighth time
5 purportedly confirms that that's Mr. Beara.
6 Last night we were given a new and enhanced and original video
7 that this witness didn't even look at apparently yet which has a clearer
8 picture. What's prejudicing us is that if this witness's credibility, as
9 all witnesses' credibilities are at issue, which video did he really
10 examine? The video that my learned colleague is referring to under the
11 65 ter number it's impossible, in my view, to denote who the character is
12 that the witness claims to be Mr. Beara.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't you think that all this could be covered on
15 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't you think that all this could be covered by
17 you on cross-examination?
18 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes and no. Here's why, Your Honour: Yes, if they
19 use the exact same video that I have in my possession that they claim that
20 the witness used; but no, if they slip a different video in or a
21 completely different document.
22 But even more importantly than our suggesting -- and respectfully
23 to Your Honours suggesting that we have the alternative to allow the
24 Prosecution to daily violate the rules and to submit documents and
25 evidence in, and all the Defence has to do is cross-examine.
1 I believe it's a strict violation of your rules, of these rules in
2 the Tribunal. If it doesn't mean anything to have 65 ter or to produce
3 documents in advance of trial so the Defence can be prepared, then that
4 may be the standard and we'll accept it, but we haven't heard that ruling
6 The photo ID is also, as I said earlier, suggestive. It was
7 improper, inappropriate. Cross-examination really shouldn't be the place
8 to answer those questions. It should be done in advance. We would do it
9 in advance had we had any timely notice that they were going to use this
10 video with this witness, which they did not give us until 7.45 last night.
11 And finally I want to say there is no misunderstanding. My
12 learned friend says there's a misunderstanding. That's not accurate. I
13 came up to her after the discussion yesterday, after the testimony of
14 Mr. Egbers, and I asked her point-blank, "Are you going to use anything
15 else or any videos?" And she answered, "I will not use any videos
17 Two and a half hours later or so, we were contacted with the
18 change of mind for whatever reason. It's not misunderstanding on my part.
19 That's a completely different and a change in their strategy. So I take
20 exception to categorising it as a misunderstanding. I didn't
21 misunderstand anything. I heard her loud and clear. And they changed
22 their mind late, only to prejudice Mr. Beara and the Defence.
23 Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll come back to you on this very soon. Any
25 further preliminary matters you wish to raise?
1 Madam Fauveau.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] -- that
3 the video concerns our client, but we haven't even got notice or
4 information about this video, that this video would be used actually.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you speaking for yourself or the rest of the
6 Defence teams?
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm speaking on behalf of
8 General Miletic.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And what about the other Defence teams? Were you
10 put on notice?
11 Mr. Bourgon.
12 MR. BOURGON: Morning, Mr. President.
13 Want to -- I'm very often on my feet, so I wanted to refrain from
14 doing so this morning, but indeed we support the motion presented by my
15 colleague Mr. Ostojic, or Ostojic.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.
18 MR. JOSSE: We support Madam Fauveau, Your Honour.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: And so do we. And so do we, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You were not put on notice? Is that what you're
21 saying, Mr. Lazarevic?
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. We haven't been informed. It doesn't
23 concern our client at all, but we were not -- as matter of truth, we were
24 not informed about this video. It wasn't on the list.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Again, we'll come back on this.
1 Any further preliminary matters unrelated to this?
2 MS. CONDON: I'll just to indicate, Your Honour, we obviously
3 didn't hear anything of this either.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
5 MR. HAYNES: I might as well make it a full house.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Thank you, Mr. Haynes. So that's it.
7 Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. One other small matter. But, Your Honour, I
9 would -- on the video just as Ms. Soljan said, this video was given to the
10 Defence a long time again. This has been an historic video in the
11 previous cases of Mladic, of Krstic. It's a big ceremony. I wish we had
12 identified it better in the index, but they need to look at the videos we
13 give them. It's been right there for a long time. And yes, it was
14 inadvertent; we did not put it on the list. But I think this is our first
15 time that we haven't put something on the list after all these witnesses,
16 so we will make mistakes and this is one of those.
17 And before I get into the other matter, perhaps we should hear
18 from --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Finish what --
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just on a scheduling matter, we -- we have another
21 witness after this, Mr. Groenewegen. He will be a 92 ter witness and be
22 pretty short, and so there's a chance, and we may finish with him tomorrow
23 before we're through. We were trying to find another officer that's in
24 the next schedule, Koster, but he -- the one day he's not available is
1 So we may finish right on time, but we may finish a little early
2 as well without another witness. I wanted to tell you that right now.
3 We've been finishing a little earlier than we had expected, and we haven't
4 been able to catch up with that.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: One -- one thing I need to be clarified from you.
6 I take it that of course you've been repeating it, both Ms. Soljan
7 and yourself, that this P2025 was disclosed way back in December of 2005.
8 It seems to me that part of Mr. Ostojic's complaint today, his complaint
9 is twofold. One is the non-insertion in the 65 ter list of the video.
10 The other thing it seems to me that he's complaining about is that the
11 witness -- the video that you wish to tender today is not the same video
12 that was shown to the witness when he was interviewed by your office or by
13 your investigators. So are we talking of two separate, different videos
14 or the same one?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can answer that, and that was perhaps when we
16 said "misunderstanding," there may have been a little misunderstanding on
18 I tried to make clear to Mr. Ostojic last night the -- we have --
19 this was shown several years ago, before computerised --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one, the first one which was used --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: The original video that was shown to the
22 witness - excuse me, Your Honour - was shown to this witness several
23 years ago in a VCR with a television attached, and -- as far as I can
24 recall. I don't know if I was present or not, but that's all we had back
25 then, really. And we have gone down to the evidence room. We've gotten
1 the original VHS tape and that is what we intend to show you, the actual
2 tape that the witness saw.
3 Now, we showed that to -- to the Defence team last night on the
4 old equipment, the kind of equipment that the witness would have seen it
5 on, so they got a good chance to see the quality of it, or lack thereof.
6 In addition to that, we several months ago obtained a better
7 quality copy of that -- of that video which we have given the Defence as
8 well. However, it's a CD and you have to play it through a computer, and
9 when this video comes out on a computer screen, it's -- it's greatly
10 degraded from if you see it on a TV screen. We're getting a DVD for them
11 right now so that they can see the best quality video, but that really is
12 aside from the issue of the original video and the original ID.
13 Just to put this in total context, the witness has always said he
14 met a person by the name of Beara, and then he was shown this videotape
15 and says, "Yes, that is the man I met," based on certain physical
16 attributes. Ms. Soljan has always intended to ask this witness, "Did you
17 see a video, and did you identify somebody from it?" And he will always
18 say, "Yes." What was inadvertently missed was that it's best for the
19 Court to be able to see this video so that you can compare his -- his ID
20 to what you see on the video. And once that was realised and focused on,
21 we went to the Defence and said, "We're sorry for the mixed messages. We
22 need to play this individual." And they understood that and we might have
23 some other misunderstandings, but I think that's the issue before you
25 JUDGE AGIUS: The P2025 that was disclosed to the -- part of the
1 Defence is the -- not the one that -- the one which has been now found
2 which is of much better quality, is it?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. It would have been more toward -- it would
4 have been much closer to the original, but it was probably done on a CD
5 format that if they play in a computer it will be -- it's degraded. In
6 fact, I think we'd all agree the one that we gave to them is not as good a
7 quality as when you put in the original video and play it on a TV. That's
8 why it was important for us to do that, so they understood that. But
9 that's just the nature of discovery and electronic issues and --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. All right. Judge Prost would like to
12 JUDGE PROST: I just wanted to clarify, because I'm still not
13 clear here. There is no dispute, I take it, that the exhibit was on the
14 65 ter list, but what is in dispute is the description, as you indicated,
15 Mr. Ostojic, and the actual list for exhibits with this witness. Is that
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct, Judge. And I think we'll agree on
18 that. If you're asking him directly, I'm sorry, you were looking at me.
19 JUDGE PROST: No. I was looking -- first from the Prosecution and
20 then perhaps Mr. Ostojic if you could -- you're confirming that,
21 Mr. McCloskey?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, absolutely. This video is a segment of
23 different videos that got that rough description and it did not include
24 Beara. And that's unfortunate, because it would have better drawn their
25 attention to it. But it is on the 65 ter, and I think we'll probably
1 agree on that point.
2 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Ostojic.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I do in part agree but I only add two
4 points. One, the video that we received was completely distorted, and it
5 was not only very difficult but almost impossible to even come close to
6 the description that the witness made in his 2000 statement to the Office
7 of the Prosecutor. So we were convinced that it was an error. We knew
8 that they wouldn't use that, even though this witness claims that he had
9 met or was introduced to Mr. Beara at some time earlier.
10 We dispute that as well. I do take exception, if I may, and I'm
11 not sure if I answered your question, to a couple of comments that the
12 Prosecutor Mr. McCloskey said, and he states on page 8 on line 19
13 and 20: "But they need to look at the videos we give them. It's been
14 right there for a long time."
15 It's offensive for two reasons. One, it's offensive
16 professionally. And what they need to do is to be honest with the Court
17 and then they need to be honest with the Defence as well. They've known
18 for a long time that they had this refined or better imagery of this
19 video. They never offered it to us because they're playing their trial
20 tactics and would always like to surprise the Defence in order to push us
21 against the wall.
22 Their tactics -- and Mr. McCloskey's wrong to say this is the
23 first witness we've failed to do that. It wasn't. He's made oral motions
24 before this Court to add 65 ter documents, to present them with witnesses.
25 My problem is this: We've believed, and we have reviewed it, that it is
1 not Mr. Beara. And that is what they want us to argue, so that this Court
2 can have some doubt as to whether or not it is Mr. Beara, so that this
3 Court can say we're really curious now, and we want to see what it is.
4 Based on Mr. Egbers description, it's impossible that he met or
5 saw Mr. Beara. What they should do, what every Prosecutor does, either
6 ask the Court for leave to do an in-court line-up or they should have
7 given him a photo book with all pictures of men similarly situated.
8 I'm sorry, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. No, Mr. Ostojic. That's what we are
10 here for, to hear your submissions.
11 JUDGE KWON: One brief question to Mr. Ostojic. You do not
12 dispute the Prosecution's allegation that in his statement Mr. Egbers had
13 said that he had met Mr. Beara, would you?
14 MR. OSTOJIC: No, I do not. That exists in the statement, that's
15 correct. In three statements it does exist.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And before we deliberate and decide on this, the
18 video that was actually shown to Lieutenant Colonel Egbers when he was
19 interviewed by the OTP, is it available in the same format as it was then?
20 In case we need to -- to see both.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, Judge. Yes. It's in fact in the booth in
22 a VCR. The problem is it's going to go through this system, and I just --
23 I saw it earlier this morning and it's degraded. But I had the television
24 right outside as well, and we can pop that television in front of you if
25 we can find a plug and play it.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
2 Scheduling matter we don't need to respond on that. Are there any
3 other preliminary matters?
4 Madam Fauveau.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: Yes, Mr. -- yes, Your Honour. I want just to tell
6 you that the format that the accusation is talking about is not the format
7 that we've had. We got this on a DVD or a CD-ROM, not on a VCR cassette.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Any further preliminaries? None.
9 We have one issue that we would like to alert you to and we will
10 be handing down a very quick oral decision now.
11 You will -- both sides recall that in our decision of the --
12 dealing with the Rule 92 bis submissions, we had dealt with the
13 transcripts of a few or several DutchBat witnesses which the Prosecution
14 was proposing, or were proposing under Rule 92 bis, and these transcripts
15 included reference to Nikolic.
16 Because the Prosecution's reply did not clarify that these
17 references were indeed to Momir Nikolic and not to the accused, we
18 admitted the transcripts in redacted form, as you will recall,
19 saying: "Accordingly, this evidence is only admissible under Rule 92 bis
20 with the references to Nikolic redacted or with some formal
21 acknowledgement by the Prosecution that the references are not to the
22 accused in this case."
23 In its submission, the Prosecution now confirms that -- when I say
24 the -- in its submission, the fine -- most recent submission filed on
25 the -- on the 12th of September, now confirms that the references to
1 Nikolic appearing in the written evidence of four DutchBat witnesses are
2 indeed references to Momir Nikolic and not to the accused in this case.
3 This simplifies the admission of full transcripts pursuant to
4 Rule 92 bis (D) which the Prosecution reports it will now be submitting.
5 We actually have decided to accept the formal acknowledgement of
6 the Prosecution in the submission that the -- that the Nikolic referred to
7 is Momir Nikolic and not the Nikolic accused in this case, and that we
8 will consequently be issuing a very brief order admitting the unredacted
9 transcripts. Before we had redacted them slightly by deleting the name or
10 the surname Nikolic. Now they will be in their original and -- original
12 This being so, we believe unless you have reason to disagree with
13 us, Mr. McCloskey, that this action now moots this -- the request to admit
14 these four transcripts pursuant to Rule 92 ter or 89(F). In other words,
15 by the -- reversing the redaction that we ordered previously, we have
16 eliminated, as we see it, the need to have -- to decide your motion or
17 your submission to have the same transcripts admitted under Rule 92 ter
18 or 89(F).
19 Mr. Bourgon.
20 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't finished, but let -- because I assume you
22 want to address this.
23 MR. BOURGON: No, it was just on this specific point. Just --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Then sit down. Thank you.
25 Okay. This leaves three other witnesses for whom the Prosecution
1 is still seeking admission of the transcript pursuant to Rule 92 ter
2 and 89(F). Yes. And I think we will be dealing with that as we process
3 the rest of the submission, but at least you know that as far as the other
4 documents are concerned they are now being admitted in an unredacted
6 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, that's fine.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
10 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
11 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I apologise for being a
12 bit early on my feet earlier on. But I just wanted to confirm that we are
13 now drafting our response to the Prosecution's motion, and this is what we
14 were suggesting indeed, to simply get the unredacted versions admitted.
15 Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Bourgon, for your cooperation.
17 I think we need to withdraw for a few minutes to deliberate on the
18 issue raised earlier, and I believe we will be back within a minute or
20 Thank you.
21 --- Break taken at 9.33 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 9.39 a.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So let me try and summarise our decision to the best
24 of our -- of my ability.
25 The position as we see it is twofold. Firstly is the aspect
1 relating to P2025 as being a document disclosed to the Defence and
2 included in the 65 ter list of documents intended to be used in the course
3 of this trial. From that aspect, there can be no doubt that the
4 Prosecution can make full use of this video in the course of the trial.
5 But the question that was raised obviously relates to the guideline that
6 we had given in relation to our desire that prior to the arrival of each
7 witness the parties seeking to bring forward that witness should hand over
8 to the other party and to us a list of the exhibits that they intend to
9 use with that particular witness.
10 The situation as we see it is that this is the desiderate. This
11 is what you should all try to achieve and to conform yourselves with, but
12 it also allows for oversights that can happen from time to time, and
13 provided such oversights are not such that would cause an undue prejudice
14 to the other party, our position is that if it is related or an integral
15 part of the evidence that the party seeks to tender, then should be the --
16 that it should be admitted, and of course every effort will be made to
17 ensure that no prejudice is suffered.
18 In this particular case, we see what is very relevant is the fact
19 that there seems to be at least two versions of this same video. We want
20 to safeguard the possibility for both of you, both Prosecution and
21 Defence, in case the need arises, and also for ourselves, because we may
22 come ourselves to the conclusion that we may need to see both, that both
23 videos are made available, assuming that the witness could be asked
24 questions relating to what he was actually shown when he was first
25 interviewed by the Office of the Prosecution.
1 So our decision is yes, please, Prosecution, and this will later
2 apply also to you, try to be as diligent as you can, because when you're
3 not the end result is three-quarters of an hour wasted, and problems and
4 possible friction between the parties. So I enjoin you to -- to -- I'm
5 not speaking to you, Ms. Soljan, just Prosecution in general, to make
6 every effort to have the list, 65 ter list, related to each witness as --
7 as complete as possible. Of course, it is understood that at times you
8 can have new evidence that has been dug up, but please try to communicate
9 the complete list to the other party as early as possible. And make sure
10 that both videos are available for whatever use either you or the Defence
11 or ourselves may feel the need to.
12 Right. Thank you. So let's bring the witness in.
13 Madam Fauveau.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, just one error in
15 the transcript at page 7, line 13, 14, 15, what I said is that this video
16 does not specifically involve my client, and in the transcript it says the
17 opposite, the opposite, that this video involves our client.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for the clarification, Ms. Fauveau. I
19 vividly remember you saying that it does not in fact. Thank you. And in
20 fact, there were other counsel that repeated exactly the same. Thank you
21 so much.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 WITNESS: VINCENTIUS BERNARDUS EGBERS [Resumed]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Lieutenant Colonel, good morning to you.
25 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: My apologies to you for having kept you waiting for
2 three-quarters of an hour, but we had some important procedural matters to
3 deal with and decide upon completely unrelated to you, so you don't have
4 to worry about what we were discussing.
5 You're still testifying pursuant to the solemn declaration that
6 you made yesterday, and I think on that score we can proceed.
7 Ms. Soljan.
8 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Examination by Ms. Soljan: [Continued]
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Egbers.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Now, yesterday we left off on the 12th of July and your
13 description about what was happening at Kladanj at the demarcation point.
14 Could you just briefly repeat for us how many buses, if you recall, were
15 at Kladanj.
16 A. When I -- when I got there there were 14 buses, and only three of
17 them were going to -- to a point where they had to get out, and then the
18 empty buses, they drove away.
19 Q. Could you estimate how many people were coming out of those buses?
20 A. Well, in the first buses there were, let's say, 50 people per
21 bus. Because it was the first convoy, it was all well organised. And
22 there were, let's say, 50, 60 people in each bus.
23 Q. And in what direction were the people from these buses going?
24 A. I only saw them going through a check-point, a road. I don't know
25 where the road led to. It was said to go to Bosnia, to Muslim areas. So
1 it was in the -- in -- for them it was a safe road, a road to safety.
2 Q. And did you have a clear impression of the state of mind of the
3 persons coming off of those buses?
4 A. Well, as I told you yesterday, there were -- there were a lot of
5 people frightened to be killed in the woods because we couldn't nearly see
6 a border or something like that. The only thing we saw was a wood,
7 and the people were very, very frightened, and they didn't know what
8 happened -- could happen to them as they -- they were glad to see me at
9 that time wearing a UN uniform.
10 Q. Approximately what time of day was this on the 12th of July?
11 A. It was in the late afternoon. Beginning of the evening. I don't
12 know exactly.
13 Q. And what happened next?
14 A. Well, when all buses were empty, we tried to get back to -- to the
15 compound, back to Srebrenica.
16 Q. Just to clarify, when you say "we," are you talking just about
17 your car?
18 A. I was talking about my car and my colleague next to me.
19 Q. Okay. So did you manage indeed to return?
20 A. We did. Night was falling, so it was for us the way to -- to the
21 area about Nova Kasaba, Milici, it was for us not very hard to drive
22 through, and when we reached the environs of Nova Kasaba, it was very hard
23 of course to go through but we reached the compound.
24 Q. Okay. On your way through Nova Kasaba, did you pass the football
25 field you had previously testified about?
1 A. Yes, of course, I passed it on my left side, and I saw still men
2 on the football field that evening.
3 Q. So would you say that it was a scene very much similar to what you
4 had seen earlier in the day?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, let me focus your attention on the next day, the 13th of
7 July, when you were back in Potocari. The next morning did you receive an
8 assignment again?
9 A. Yes. We had to report with the captain who was in charge of
10 escorting the convoys, and I was given the -- I guess it was number three,
11 convoy number three, to escort all the way to Kladanj again. So I had to
12 be ready.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. And then I left headquarters, and of course there were thousands
15 of men, women, and it was very hard, as you -- as you understand.
16 And then I saw a terrible thing at the "White House." Can I tell
17 you about that?
18 Q. Please tell us.
19 A. Because upside the road there is a house, and when I saw one of
20 the -- one of the women screaming towards the soldiers, towards us, I just
21 went there, and I ask her what was going on. And she said, "Well, my man
22 was taken by that house." So I -- I went to the two soldiers who were
23 there in the neighbourhood of the house, and I said, "Well, check
24 out the house. Let's see what's in the house."
25 Q. Just to clarify, when you say "soldiers," you're referring to
1 DutchBat soldiers?
2 A. To DutchBat soldiers, yes. But there were -- those two soldiers
3 didn't have any permission to go to -- inside the house because there were
4 armed BSA soldiers standing in front of that house. But again because I
5 was a lieutenant at that time, I pointed at my shoulder. I wanted them to
6 know that I was just entering the house, whether they wanted or not.
7 So I entered the house. I went up and I saw in every room men
8 sitting and waiting for things to happen there. They were very, very
9 scared, of course. That's -- when I remember it, I can still see the
10 faces in front of me. Those men were gathered there and women and
11 children were pushed inside the buses.
12 Q. Okay. Now, did you have a conversation or a discussion with any
13 of the Bosnian Serb soldiers who were at this house? About what was
15 A. Well, the men, they were very scared, and they asked us -- they
16 asked me what -- what will happen to them, and they were -- I told them in
17 my -- my English that I had escorted a convoy to Kladanj, and then -- they
18 then realised that Kladanj was -- was the road to safety.
19 Q. How were you communicating with these men?
20 A. Well, I've then spoken a few words of -- of Serbo-Croatian
21 language and of course a bit in English and with my hands.
22 Q. Sign language.
23 A. Sign language, yes.
24 Q. Did the Bosnian Serb soldiers tell you anything about what was
25 going on?
1 A. Yes. I asked them what happened to these men, why are they
2 separated from the women, and they told me that they would be in a -- in a
3 convoy to Kladanj as well as convoy number four. So I told the men that
4 they would be brought by the Bosnian Serbs to Kladanj so that they could
5 join their wives and families again.
6 But at that time, unfortunately the men, they didn't believe me,
7 and they said, "No." And they made the same sign the women the day before
8 made, with the finger, you know, as you described it yesterday, along
9 their throat. And I then told them, "Well, no, the Bosnian Serbs told me
10 that you will be brought by Kladanj, and I had to make sure that there is
11 an escort for you who will try to be with the buses as you go to Kladanj."
12 Q. So did you indeed see these men being taken out of
13 the "White House" and placed into buses?
14 A. Yes. I -- I saw them enter three buses, I think. Together there
15 were, let's say, 150 to 200 men inside convoy number four.
16 Q. And just to clarify, you only saw the men inside the houses; is
17 that correct? Captured men inside the houses.
18 A. Yes. When I entered the house, I saw captured men inside the
19 house and in the garden of the house there were -- there was stuff that
20 belonged to the men, bags they've got -- they carried, and it was all in
21 front of house.
22 So when I entered the house I saw them. They were very scared,
23 and I tried to -- to give them the information the Bosnian Serbs gave me,
24 that they would be brought to Kladanj.
25 Q. And how did these men look when they were getting onto the buses?
1 A. Well, they were very, very scared. When you look at their eyes,
2 you can see that. You can tell that. And they didn't believe me, and
3 they said, "No, we don't live another day," by -- by the signal. So
4 they -- they were very, very scared.
5 Q. And to clarify for the record, when you talk about the signal, it
6 is the sign that you were referring to yesterday also, which was drawing
7 the right forefinger -- or the forefinger from the left side to the right
8 side across the neck. What did that indicate to you?
9 A. This thing that you described is correct and it indicated that,
10 yes, they would be killed.
11 JUDGE KWON: If the witness could clarify the meaning of "captured
12 men." Being detained in the "White House," being separated from their
13 families, or they're captured as -- separately.
14 MS. SOLJAN:
15 Q. If you -- yes.
16 A. I saw men taken from their families. Their families went into the
17 bus, and the men were separated and were detained inside the "White
18 House," and there were Bosnian Serb soldiers standing in front of
19 the "White House." So they had no -- they couldn't move. They were
20 there detained.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 MS. SOLJAN:
23 Q. Now, do you know what happened to the convoy of these three buses
24 that left with the men from the "White House"?
25 A. I was sure that there was an escort, and there was a lieutenant
1 with -- with another UN peacekeeper driving with this convoy, but
2 unfortunately it didn't reach Kladanj. It -- it was said to me that there
3 was an AK-47 to the head of the two soldiers who were accompanying this
4 escort -- sorry, accompanying this convoy, and they didn't get further
5 than Bratunac. And I don't know what happened to the men after that.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now what happened next? You were still in
7 Potocari then?
8 A. I escorted the convoy number four all the way to Kladanj, and
9 again I saw coming through Bratunac all these people on the streets
10 celebrating, and I saw a lot more infantry standing on the road all the
11 way to Nova Kasaba and to Milici. I was stopped several times, and
12 because of our experience we didn't take any weapons because they would
13 have taken our pistols and our guns, so we were there unarmed as an
14 observer, and we were stopped, and they wanted -- they claimed our helmets
15 and our bullet-proof vests and other stuff we had in our cars.
16 Q. Now, were you taking the same route as the day before?
17 A. It was exactly -- exactly same route. We just followed the buses
18 again. The bus drivers knew exactly where to go to.
19 Q. And approximately how many buses were in the convoy that you were
20 escorting on this day, on the 13th?
21 A. It was the same. I think about 10 to 12 to 14 buses. I didn't
22 count them that day.
23 JUDGE KWON: Convoy number three or four?
24 MS. SOLJAN:
25 Q. Is this particularly convoy number three that you were referring
2 A. It's my convoy that I escorted. And I guess -- I'm not sure about
3 it. I have to look it up. But it's my -- there was a convoy, I thought
4 that that was number four that had all the men inside, and my convoy had
5 another number. It was number 3 or number four, but I have to look it up
6 if you want to be sure about that.
7 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier on that your helmets and your
8 bullet-proof vest was taken. Who took them?
9 A. Well, along the road there was a lot of infantry gathered, and
10 they -- they stop the car. They aimed their -- their guns at us and they
11 stop the car. They -- they are Bosnian Serb infantry units that stopped
12 us and took the things we had.
13 Q. Do you recall where along the road this took place?
14 A. It was on the way from Bratunac to the cross-point. It's called
15 Pusmulici. I don't remember that name, but I saw that yesterday on a map.
16 If you want to, I could point it out to you.
17 Q. Okay. We can show you the map for a moment.
18 MS. SOLJAN: Madam Usher, if we could just show ter -- 65 ter
19 number 2111, please. Thank you.
20 Q. Sir, could you try and indicate -- [French on English channel].
21 A. That's French.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are receiving interpretation --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. The interpreter was on the wrong
24 channel. Sorry.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So we need to go through that again for -- but it's
1 in the transcript. The witness himself may not have been able to follow.
2 MS. SOLJAN:
3 Q. Well, sir, if you could please show to us, then, indicate by the
4 stylus whereabouts you were stopped and your helmet and bullet-proof vests
5 were taken from you.
6 A. [Marks].
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you said you were seeing infantry soldiers
8 in the area. Could you -- could you tell approximately how many soldiers
9 there were along this road?
10 A. There were hundreds of soldiers on the road all the way to
11 Konjevic Polje and to Milici, and more. There were more soldiers than the
12 day before.
13 Q. And how were they placed along the road?
14 A. Well, they had their guns on the woods in the south, and from --
15 so they were facing the enclave. So everybody who had to cross the road
16 was stopped by them.
17 Q. And were they firing on this day? Did you hear any shooting
18 or ...
19 A. I've heard them firing that night but not at -- at that morning.
20 Q. And did you hear any firing coming out of the woods which they
21 were facing?
22 A. No, I did not hear any firing coming out of the woods.
23 Q. Now, on your route with -- along with the convoy, did you pass the
24 football field in Nova Kasaba again?
25 A. Yes. I passed the football field on my right, and there were
1 still men on the football field and men who were brought towards the
2 football field at the day before.
3 Q. Were they being escorted?
4 A. They were escorted by Bosnian Serbs infantry. I saw men walking
5 by the road, on the road, with their hands on their neck towards the
6 football field.
7 Q. And could you estimate the numbers of that day? How many -- how
8 many were there at the football field?
9 A. Well, I saw a few hundred men on the football field that morning
11 Q. And what happened next? Did you continue on towards Kladanj?
12 A. Yes. I reached Kladanj with my convoy, and there was the same
13 procedure as the -- as the night before. There was a point where the
14 buses would stop. Everybody had to get out and walk their way on the road
15 towards the Muslim area.
16 Q. And did you notice anything particular that day during the
17 disembarkation process?
18 A. No. The buses were more -- were full of people. It wasn't that
19 organised as it was the first convoy. There were -- there were hundreds
20 of people. I don't know. There were 50 or 60 people in the bus the first
21 day, but there were more people standing on every inch of the bus the
22 second day.
23 Q. And once everybody came off the buses, what -- what did you do
25 A. I reported to my OP Alpha, my observation post Alpha that I had to
1 go back again towards the compound, and I reached only as far as
2 Nova Kasaba that day because the other road was closed by Bosnian Serb
4 Q. And what happen at that location exactly?
5 A. There were soldiers. They were pointing their guns at us. We had
6 to stop. They took my car and they drove away with the car with all the
7 stuff in it, and I had to sit along with 10 or 12 others on -- on the side
8 of the road.
9 Q. And who are these 10 or 12 others you're mentioning?
10 A. Well, they were Dutch peacekeepers who were on convoy escorting
11 tasks, but they didn't succeed to go past Nova Kasaba. So their cars were
12 taken and they had to wait along the road.
13 Q. Did you see their cars, the UN cars in this area?
14 A. Not at that time, because they were brought to a school, and
15 because I was a lieutenant at the time, I asked one of the soldiers who
16 was stopping us and face -- and to get in charge of -- to meet with --
17 with the commanding officer at the time.
18 So I was brought to a school nearby Nova Kasaba. That's where we
19 were stopped. And that's where I met a major, Major Zoran. I always
20 called him by his first name. His last name was Malinic. I've wrote it
21 down so I can look it up if you want to know that. He was in charge of
22 that school. The school was a kind of headquarters for his -- for his
24 Q. Okay.
25 MS. SOLJAN: Madam Usher, if we could please display on e-court
1 Prosecutor exhibit, 65 ter number 1688, please.
2 Q. Now, sir, do you recognise this building?
3 A. This is the school I've just mentioned. As you can see, nearby
4 the telephone, there's the entrance to the school. This is the school.
5 Q. And this is seen from what direction?
6 A. This from the direction of Kladanj going towards the village of
7 Nova Kasaba.
8 Q. So when you arrived at the building, who did you go see again?
9 Could you tell us the name again, please?
10 A. I saw Major Zoran Malinic. Well, his last name, I got to look it
11 up if you want to know.
12 Q. And could you describe this man, please?
13 A. He was sportive, tall one. He was born in 1961, as I can
14 remember. He had dark black hair with some white colours in it. And he
15 was in charge of the troops who were forming a headquarters inside the
17 Q. And how did he identify himself to you?
18 A. Well, I was brought to him with an interpreter who spoke excellent
19 English, and I had said, "Well, I'm the highest ranking officer of this
20 group of DutchBat, and I want to meet the commander who was stopping us
21 because we are escorting these convoys, and I have some complaints to --
22 because of the behaviour of the soldiers." On the road of course they
23 were stopping us, taking our things, threatening us. So I had to make a
24 complaint to him and on his door was his name written as well.
25 Q. And did he tell you where he was from? Did you have --
1 A. He told me that he was in charge of more than one battalion, and
2 he was in the neighbour -- in the surroundings of Sarajevo, and he had to
3 go to the Srebrenica area for this operation.
4 Q. And did he identify himself as being in charge of the roadblock?
5 A. He identified himself as being in charge of the headquarters and
6 the things happening on the road with his soldiers. I was stopped by his
7 soldiers, yes.
8 Q. Now, sir, do you know a DutchBat soldier by the name of Mulder?
9 A. Yes. He was with me at that time, and he complained to me that he
10 had to go on an APC, a Dutch APC, a YPR, and he had to go through the
11 woods show -- showing himself as a UN peacekeeper and calling to the
12 Muslims who are in the woods that it's safe for them to come out. And
13 they drove -- there was a Bosnian Serb who was driving the APC. He was on
14 top of the APC screaming to the Muslims that it was safe. And it was this
15 incident and the incident of the stealing of the cars, of the treatment of
16 the UN troops that I had a written complaint taken to this Major Zoran.
17 Those are the stuff that I complained to him about.
18 Q. And what did this major say to you about that complaint?
19 A. Well, he told me that he was in charge of the headquarters, but he
20 didn't have anything to do with the troops who were along the road all the
21 way to Bratunac, that he had to contact his commanding officer. This
22 commanding officer was named Colonel Beara.
23 Q. This is what the major said?
24 A. This is what he said, and he tried to get in contact with him so
25 that he could talk to us about the complaint and get us a safe return back
1 to Potocari, because we had a task to fulfil. We had to go with each
2 convoy, UN peacekeepers, on -- or, rather, on the bus we can only follow
3 the convoy. So that was our task, and he couldn't stop us and take our
4 cars, take our stuff, pretend to be a UN peacekeeper and calling the men
5 from the woods.
6 Q. So at some point in time while you were here, did you or your
7 soldiers try to leave the area?
8 A. Well, he said, "Okay, you can go if you want to." So I ordered
9 three UN vehicles to be prepared with peacekeepers, and I ordered them to
10 try to leave the school and go nearby Nova Kasaba and go to Bratunac. And
11 I waited there for other cars who are on the road back towards
12 Nova Kasaba. But unfortunately, one car was coming back, two others were
13 stolen by Bosnian Serbs, and they all walked back for 500 metres with just
14 one car. So it wasn't possible for us to leave the site of the school by
15 our own means and we were not free to go.
16 Q. And did the soldiers who returned explain to you what happened?
17 A. Well, they told me that there was a gun pointed at them and that
18 they had to leave the car and that the car was taken by the Bosnian Serbs.
19 Q. So what did you then decide to do?
20 A. So I complained about that as well to this major, and he told me
21 that he had to contact Colonel Beara about this and that as soon as he is
22 here at the school he would try to arrange a safe return for us to
24 Q. And approximately what time of day were you taken to the school?
25 A. Well, it was in the afternoon.
1 Q. The afternoon. So did you spend the night at this school?
2 A. Yes. It was a -- it was very strange, because -- because I was
3 talking to this major and he invited me for a dinner, and I had to play
4 chess with him. He said, "Well, let's play chess." And he told me about
5 the enclave and -- and the Bosnian Serb point of view about -- about
6 things around -- surrounding the enclave, and he was trying to, well,
7 to -- to get me in a good mood.
8 The soldiers who were with me, they were eating with -- on a
9 special table, and I had to go with him. He was trying to -- to get in
10 contact with this Colonel Beara, and we had to stay the night, and we had
11 a classroom for ourself to stay the night with.
12 Q. What was this school being used for? Could you tell?
13 A. Well, there were troops coming in who were having a meal, and
14 there were dogs kept there. There were meals prepared. So it was a kind
15 of headquarters.
16 Q. And what was --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: We have discussed something that we consider to be
20 important, particularly since we have arrived to a stage -- or at a stage
21 where the witness is specifically stating that a certain individual
22 pointed out to him that he needed to speak to Colonel Beara. So we need
23 to know with as much precision as possible the identity of this individual
24 the witness was speaking to.
25 Earlier on he said that he could give us his correct or his
1 precise surname if he could check with his notes. So our decision is that
2 he would be given the opportunity to check his notes and give us the exact
3 name and surname of this individual. Of course, with the possibility open
4 to both Prosecution and Defence teams and ourselves to be able to check
5 with this part of his notes.
6 So, Lieutenant Colonel -- yes, Ms. Soljan.
7 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour, in fact there is a document, a report
8 that Lieutenant Colonel Egbers himself had written at the time or shortly
9 after returning from Nova Kasaba, which was I was going to be bringing up.
10 If you would like, I can do so at this time and he can from this very
11 report identify and look at the name.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but with this proviso, that if he still needs
13 to check his notes to make sure that the name and surname are correct,
14 then we will give him all the opportunity.
15 Mr. Ostojic.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Even though it's nice and we are thankful for our -- the
18 Prosecutor for helping out here, but we'd like to see his notes, and I
19 didn't realise he had notes, and if he can be -- if we can get those notes
20 that would really help us.
21 Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, but that will not be the case, not unless
23 he's referring to his notes. And what I mentioned was refer only to that
24 part of his notes where he has specific reference to the name and surname
25 of this person.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: I understand now and then I would object to the
2 Prosecutor showing him -- showing him her documents that she believes may
3 or may not have that name, and I would rather that we have him look at his
4 notes and maybe the Court can have an in camera inspection. But I didn't
5 realise he had notes, and I think it's only fair to give our client a fair
6 trial and for justice to be followed that the notes be produced.
7 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, if I could --
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's out of the question at the moment, Mr. Ostojic.
10 Let's make ourselves clear, if you are thinking that as a follow-up to
11 what we stated you pretend to be entitled to go through his entire notes,
12 you're far off what we had intended.
13 What we had intended is this: The witness said if you want the
14 precise name, I need to consult my notes. He will be given the
15 opportunity to consult that particular part of his notes where he knows
16 that is what the precise name and surname, and it's only that page or
17 whatever it is that we will allow you to -- the Prosecution and ourselves
18 to see. Otherwise until and unless he is making use of the entire notes
19 that he has for the purpose of his testimony, we will -- we will not force
20 him to hand us or to show you or anyone else for that matter his notes.
21 So the position, I think, we'd like to do it both ways. You will
22 make use of that document because it's a report which you allege has been
23 drawn up by the witness himself, so you are perfectly entitled to make use
24 of that document and ask him a question. We would still prefer to make
25 sure that he first checks with his notes to ensure -- and make sure that
1 he is now hundred per cent familiar with the name and surname of this
3 So, Lieutenant Colonel, you can check your note or your notes.
4 Don't tell us you don't have them here.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, can I explain something?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: Because I didn't bring anything out of the enclave
8 except the things I have typed out and are in the dossier of this case.
9 So right -- when I was in the enclave, I used the computer and I wrote
10 everything down on paper, and that's what's inside of -- so I don't have a
11 book with -- with my notes. It's all typed out, and I handed it over.
12 So when I can have a look at that piece of paper, I can. I'm sure
13 that they've got the same papers.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Have -- has what Lieutenant Colonel's referring to
15 been disclosed to --
16 MS. SOLJAN: Yes. Yes, yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So then let's proceed. I think it becomes
18 very simplified.
19 MS. SOLJAN: Yes, Your Honour. Now --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I was acting under a misunderstanding. Obviously I
21 thought that he had some notes that he had brought with him, presumably
22 that he was going to show us, but it's not the case.
23 THE WITNESS: I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay.
25 MS. SOLJAN:
1 Q. So if we can just make a final clarification. Upon your return to
2 Potocari in July 1995, you typed up a report, did you not?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. And this report was typed up in the Dutch language; is that right?
5 A. It is, yes.
6 MS. SOLJAN: And we indeed have it here. Now, I have the Dutch
7 version here, but we have of course provided the Defence with both the
8 B/C/S and the English versions of it. I can give you the ERN number, and
9 the ERN number for this is R013-5633 to R013-5636.
10 Now, for the purposes of refreshing the recollection of
11 Lieutenant Colonel Egbers, I don't know whether you -- whether it would be
12 wiser to give him the actual original Dutch language notes for him to take
13 a look at. I have a copy --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: See what he prefers.
15 MS. SOLJAN:
16 Q. What would you prefer?
17 A. I would like that.
18 Q. I have a copy here with me, and then of course we can also put
19 that on the ELMO or e-court, however you would like that. And the
20 specific pages that he's looking at of this report are RO135635 to
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. Now, sir, did you have a chance -- do you need to focus it a
24 little more, please. I think the English version needs to be focused a
25 little better. We're almost getting there.
1 Now, perhaps if I could have the Lieutenant Colonel Egbers read
2 into the record the particular --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- paragraph or paragraphs which deal with the identification of
5 this individual.
6 A. So I spoke about Major Zoran Malinic.
7 Q. And could you read, please, for us the particular paragraph in
8 which you wrote his name.
9 A. Yes, it was number 5. "I asked to speak to the local commander
10 who was in a former school building which had been converted into a
11 temporary barracks, Major Zoran Milanic, born 1961, and told him that the
12 convoys were being escorted at the orders of Major General Mladic."
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I distinctly heard the witness pronounce "Major
14 Zoran Milanic."
15 THE WITNESS: Malinic.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But what we have written here is Malinic
17 [sic]. I just want to make sure that it is Malinic and not Milanic.
18 THE WITNESS: It is, no.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
20 Yes, go ahead. Thank you.
21 MS. SOLJAN:
22 Q. You had said that you had spent -- you spent the evening at the
23 headquarters with this major?
24 A. Yes, I have.
25 Q. And where were your Dutch -- the other Dutch soldiers who were
1 there? Where were they at this time?
2 A. They were inside the school, and they -- we slept there that
4 Q. What was the atmosphere like during the night? Was there anything
5 in particular that you could note about --
6 A. Well, during the night there was a lot of firing in -- in the
7 neighbourhood of the -- of the school, and it was a firing, not a combat
8 of -- there was just a lot of machine-gun firing. And as I -- as I asked
9 this Major Malinic about it, he said, "Well, we've got young troops and
10 when there is some sound they will all just fire at the woods." That's
11 what he said to me at the time.
12 Q. Okay. I'll take you back just a moment to the afternoon, to the
13 evening that you spent at the school. During your time there, close to
14 the -- the road to Nova Kasaba, did you notice any other convoys?
15 A. Well, the only thing we could do at that time because all the
16 escorts were stopped at the school was to go towards the road and to count
17 all the buses with women and children who were coming by. So I saw at
18 that time a lot of buses going towards Kladanj but no escort on it.
19 Q. Okay. Do you have a number of the buses? Did you yourself count
20 a number?
21 A. I didn't -- I didn't do that myself.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. We had some radio contact.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. With OP Alpha.
1 Q. Okay. Your Honours, I believe this might be a time for --
2 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Soljan, can I hear from the witness the time
3 frame what happened to Mr. Mulder happened.
4 MS. SOLJAN: Of course. Absolutely, Your Honour.
5 Q. So Lieutenant Colonel, if you could just tell us briefly, did
6 lieutenant -- did Sergeant Mulder tell you exactly when the events he
7 complained about happened to him?
8 A. It was on that morning that it happened to him. So we were
9 escorting all the -- all the buses, and in the morning he had to go on an
10 APC that was given by Bosnian Serbs. He was taken inside the -- through
11 the woods, and he had to call for Muslims that it was safe for them to
12 come out.
13 Q. Did he tell you how long that lasted from the moment he was --
14 A. I didn't tell me, sorry.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we break, I forgot to mention one thing in
18 relation to our decision on the video that -- pronounced earlier on.
19 We also took notice of what Madam Fauveau and others had
20 mentioned. I mean, the practice should be that any such document, even if
21 it is intended or earmarked or of interest to one of the accused only, it
22 should be disclosed to all others, because I don't think there should be
23 any distinctions.
24 MS. SOLJAN: I understand, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will --
1 MS. SOLJAN: Apparently it was actually --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I am told by Madam Fauveau, Mr. Lazarevic,
3 Mr. Haynes, and Mr. Bourgon that it wasn't.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
7 MR. BOURGON: Very briefly -- very briefly. The document that is
8 now on the ELMO appears somewhat different from the document I have that
9 was disclosed to us. There is very minor changes on those first few
10 paragraphs. I would just like permission to see this document on the ELMO
11 just to compare the two. There is some editing that's been done
12 between --
13 Thank you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's an interesting matter that you've raised.
15 MS. SOLJAN: If I may, Your Honour, just one more quick thing.
16 I misunderstood you. Indeed we disclosed this document. The
17 video has been disclosed to all the parties in 2006. On our 65 -- well,
18 in fact, it was disclosed on December 19 of 2005 to all the parties, and
19 then was in fact marked on the 65 ter exhibit list as the -- yeah.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: The new one. The one that has been -- this is what
21 was intended.
22 MS. SOLJAN: The new one is -- as far as I know is very new and
23 that is coming.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but it was shown to --
25 MR. OSTOJIC: No, no, no -- oh, I'm sorry.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, you'll discuss this amongst yourselves,
2 please, and the message is what is of interest to one party may be of
3 interest to all the others and should be -- should --
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, if I just may for the record just
5 state, the video that -- the new video that they received, according to
6 Mr. McCloskey yesterday, he told me he got it several months ago. That
7 was never disclosed to us. He had it several months ago. He didn't get
8 it yesterday, a week ago, a month ago. And we insisted, and we said, "Did
9 you get it before or after the trial?" He said, "I had it several months
10 ago." But I just wanted to put that on the record.
11 Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. 25 minutes.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we're getting to the point where
18 we'll be playing the tape soon. I have had a chance to see the tape as it
19 goes through the audio booth and comes out on our screens and as you know
20 we have computer screens, and so the television screen gives a much better
21 picture than the computer screens. So when we show him the tape, the tape
22 will not have as much quality on it through this system, and I -- I can
23 compare the two and even I can tell you that they're degraded. So we have
24 brought in the TV and that can be played, if you would like it to. If
25 think once you see the computer thing you're going to want to see what he
1 saw, and we have it here.
2 Now, I've now figured out what the complaints the Defence have,
3 and they're right. We did not show the other Defence counsel this tape,
4 and we didn't tell them last night that -- that we had decided we needed
5 to play it, and we should have. It was late and we didn't get to that,
6 and we always try to make sure we tell everybody everything, but that's a
7 fair criticism.
8 But just back to the other issue. We can play the tape through
9 the system and, if you'd like, then you can see it or Defence can see it
10 roughly the way the witness would have seen it when he was shown it. So I
11 just wanted to give you those options so you could decide.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, or anyone else for that matter, do you
13 wish to contribute to this?
14 MR. OSTOJIC: We would just defer to your better judgement, Your
16 JUDGE AGIUS: My -- if you don't agree with me.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think the best -- we think that the best
19 way to proceed about it is that you, Mr. McCloskey and Ms. Soljan, you are
20 best positioned to know what is closest to what he was shown when he was
21 interviewed by the investigators of -- or officers of the OTP, and then
22 we'll take it up from there. If it's what you intend to show us on this
23 TV screen that you think was shown to him, then we'll proceed along those
24 lines, and of course there will be all the opportunities for the Defence
25 to ask questions. And then we see whatever else there is to see if it is
1 the case.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. That's a little awkward
3 because we have to recreate the investigative situation and there it is.
4 And we can play it over to the witness, then we can play it to you, then
5 we can play it to counsel. It's really only 10 seconds or something like
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and we can actually focus -- focus a camera --
8 focus a camera on it and we see what comes out. I mean, it's -- I don't
9 want to predict or anticipate anything, because I don't know.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I'll go take my seat in the back and see what
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see. But it needs to -- how are we going to
13 get the witness to come here and watch it from here? Or can it be moved
14 to --
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: If audiovisual can help us, that we can move it
16 close to the witness, that would probably be the best.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the way it should be done, Mr. McCloskey, is
18 that it should be placed as near the witness as possible, also in a way
19 which is visible particularly to Mr. Ostojic, and at the same time if one
20 of the cameras can focus on it while this is being shown, I think it will
21 give the opportunity to everyone and then we'll see it ourselves later, or
22 any one of the Defence teams who wishes to see it again. I mean, it's a
23 short clip.
24 Okay. Okay. That should -- should be enough.
25 All right. And one of the cameras will focus on it while we
2 How long is it, Mr. McCloskey?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: About six to 10 seconds is all, and it's going to
4 be -- you're going to want to see it a couple of times.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: As the witness will testify he did when he saw it.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. Let's bring the witness in.
8 Mr. Ostojic, please don't ask him whether he's seen that
9 television before.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Lieutenant Colonel, we are going to show you an
13 a very short footage, and not immediately. Oh, I see. Yes, okay. All
14 right. We'll come to it. I thought it was going to be shown immediately.
15 Go ahead, Ms. Soljan.
16 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Your Honours. It will be becoming very
18 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, you were telling us about the night that you
19 spent at the school in Nova Kasaba, and you had mentioned that you were --
20 you heard firing happen during the night. Could you tell what kind of
21 weapons were being used?
22 A. That was automatic fire by machine-guns, and it was in the --
23 environs the school.
24 Q. Could you tell what direction the fire was coming from?
25 A. At that time, it -- we thought -- I thought it was in the
1 direction of the road.
2 Q. Now, while you were at the school, did you have the opportunity to
3 walk around the grounds?
4 A. Yes. We were able to -- to sit inside the school and the playing
5 grounds, in the environs of the school.
6 Q. And could you please describe for us your observations outside the
7 grounds in front of the school?
8 A. Well, there was a house -- well, let's say there was a room where
9 they kept Muslims, boys and men, inside. It was on the road from the --
10 from the road to the school that there was a small, let's say chambers. I
11 don't know whether it's a real house, but that's where they kept the men
12 that were brought by the -- by the road towards this building.
13 Q. And how many men where in this building?
14 A. There were, let's say, 20 or 30 men and boys.
15 Q. How did they look?
16 A. Well, one had a black -- a blue eye. He was -- and another one
17 had a stomach of -- who had injuries at his belly, and they were all there
18 with just a bucket to stay in there for the night.
19 Q. And when did you observe these men in this room?
20 A. We observed them the first day in the afternoon and the second day
21 I was there.
22 Q. Okay. And in the course of the second day, can you describe us
23 how that -- how that morning progressed? Just tell us.
24 A. One of the privates who was with me at the school managed to get a
25 friendly relationship with one of the Bosnian Serbs who was there at the
1 school, and because we heard firing that night we wanted to check whether
2 those men who were inside this building were still alive. So he said --
3 well, this private who was a Dutch soldier, he said well, we can -- "I've
4 arranged that we can have a look." So I joined him, and together we had a
5 look at the men who were there. They were there still alive, and two of
6 them were very -- were injured at that time.
7 Q. And during the morning was there any continued shooting?
8 A. There was no shooting at the sites. The night -- it happened that
9 night, but we were shot by, I think, Muslim fire at that time. There were
10 a few rounds hit inside the school.
11 So this major, he fired every -- every weapon he had on the
12 grounds in front of the school, and then he took two boys outside of the
13 house I just described. He used them as a shield, and he tried to fight
14 the two -- fight the men who were -- who fired at the school at that time.
15 Q. When you say "boys," how old did these individuals look to be?
16 A. Well, they were 16. I think some could be 14 or 18, but they were
17 very young.
18 Q. And what happened to them?
19 A. Well, after a half an hour they came back, and those boys were put
20 back into the -- into the room with the others, and he said that he
21 didn't -- he couldn't see the men who were firing at the school at the
23 Q. When was this approximately? What time of day?
24 A. This was in the morning.
25 Q. And what happened next; can you tell us?
1 A. Well, next apparently Mr. -- Colonel Beara appeared at the school,
2 and I knew this because the interpreter who was typing out these
3 complaints in Bosnian Serb and in English told me that he would arrive and
4 that I could meet him, and I -- I went to the parking place and there was
5 a luxurious car coming, not an army car or something like that, just a
6 normal car, and there was Colonel Beara, and I saluted him. I said who I
7 was, and I handed out the complaints about the APC, the written complaints
8 about the cars that had been stolen from us, the -- the bullet-proof vest.
9 I've mentioned him that there was an APC, a Dutch APC, with Serbs in it
10 who were just acting to be UN peacekeepers by wearing our clothes and
11 using our vehicles. And I asked him to guide us back to the compound, not
12 to take us -- to leave us at the school any longer.
13 Q. Were you using the interpreter at that time when you were speaking
14 to this colonel?
15 A. When I spoke to him, I spoke in English and it was all translated
16 by this interpreter.
17 Q. Okay. Can you describe for us what he looked like?
18 A. Well, I described him in one of my debriefing reports as a tall
19 man with grey hair but with an atmosphere of a colonel. He was in a
20 camouflage suit wearing a colonel's ranking. So that's how I remember
21 him, as a big, giant colonel.
22 Q. And, sir, you've given a few statements to the ICTY in the past
23 describing Colonel Beara; is that correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Do you remember having a meeting in April 30, 2000 with two
2 A. I do -- I do remember that, ma'am.
3 Q. Thank you. And do you remember at this meeting having the
4 opportunity to watch a short video?
5 A. Yes, I've seen a short video that day.
6 Q. Can you briefly describe for us what was on that video, if you
8 A. It was six years ago, but I'm sure that there was a celebration,
9 an inspection of troops by General Mladic and by a giant colonel with grey
10 hair, who might have been Colonel Beara.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Now, we will play a video for you, sir.
12 MS. SOLJAN: If we could have the video unit start this. Okay.
13 And this is, for the record, 65 ter 2025.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: Just to note our same objection, Your Honour, just
15 for the record, if I may.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MS. SOLJAN:
19 Q. Sir, do you -- have you seen this video before?
20 A. I've seen it in the year 2000.
21 Q. So this is --
22 A. This is the video I saw, yes.
23 Q. Thank you very much. Do you recall approximately how many times
24 you may have looked at it or have seen it?
25 A. No. Sorry.
1 Q. No problem.
2 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, do you need to see it one more time or
3 was the --
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 [Videotape played]
6 MS. SOLJAN: Pause. Maybe go a few seconds. Could you pause,
7 please. Thank you.
8 Q. Sir, do you recognise the individual?
9 A. I recognise the individual who is behind General Mladic as the
10 Colonel Beara I saw in 1995 at the school.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. So, Lieutenant Colonel, you said you
12 spoke to Colonel Beara at that time. How long was your conversation with
14 A. It was a short conversation. He didn't say much. He just took
15 the written complaint, and he went to this major inside the school.
16 Q. Did you see him talk to the major at the school?
17 A. No, I wasn't there when he talked to this major.
18 Q. And just for clarifications purposes, when you refer to "this
19 major," it is the major that we had identified earlier as Major Zoran
20 Malinic; is that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. What happened next after Colonel Beara went to speak to the major?
23 A. After that, we -- this Major Zoran Malinic arranged our safe
24 return towards Srebrenica, the compound of the UN. We left the two cars
25 we had, and we took place in a BOV. That's an Armed Personnel Carrier by
1 the -- by the Serbs, by the Bosnian Serbs. And he drove us all the way
2 back towards the enclave.
3 Q. How soon after major -- after Colonel Beara's visit did you leave
4 for Potocari or were you escorted to Potocari?
5 A. It has been a few hours. So in the night I think it was 9.00 that
6 we did arrive at -- at the compound.
7 Q. Okay. Now, did Colonel Beara stay at the headquarters?
8 A. No. The Colonel left after he talked to the major at the school.
9 Q. How long would you say he stayed at the school?
10 A. I think he only stayed for half an hour.
11 Q. Did you see him leave?
12 A. Yes, I saw him leave.
13 Q. And what happened with your written complaint?
14 A. Well, I gave it to the Colonel Beara, and he took it with him to
15 Major Zoran, but I never saw it again. And I had a copy of it and a copy
16 of the complaint written in English and in Serbo-Croatian was given to me
17 by -- or to the operations section of the battalion of DutchBat.
18 Q. Did you yourself keep a copy of that complaint?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. And do you know where a copy of complaint could be found?
21 A. I don't know whether it was burnt when we left the enclave or that
22 it was taken to Zagreb. I don't know.
23 Q. Okay. But at the time that you were at the school in Nova Kasaba,
24 was any immediate action taken on this complaint?
25 A. The only action that was taken was that we would be brought back
1 safely to the compound, and at that time there were no escorts. There
2 were no buses to be escorted to Kladanj. That was all over. So there --
3 there was something done by the safety of -- of the Dutch troops. And the
4 only thing we did was complaining about the UN APC be used by the Bosnian
6 Q. Okay. How were you transported back to Potocari?
7 A. I was inside of the BOV, as I call it, and when I was driving back
8 towards the compound, I saw, but I didn't have a clear vision, I saw a
9 dead Muslim with -- with a rucksack on his back lying dead on the -- dead
10 on the road, and the driver, he was making jokes and he was trying not to
11 hit the body. I saw goods of the men who were inside -- or nearby the
12 road burning, so it was -- and then of course there was a lot of infantry
13 standing there near the road, but there was of course no stopping of those
14 vehicles and they brought us safely back. They even gave me some
16 Q. To clarify this, you mentioned a BOV. Could you tell us what that
18 A. A BOV is an Armed Personnel Carrier by the -- used by the Bosnian
19 Serbs with a machine-gun on top of it, and you can transport troops in it.
20 Q. Okay. So how many of you were in this BOV, of the Dutch --
21 DutchBat soldiers?
22 A. Well, we drove back in two BOVs, so the group was divided in two,
23 and we were with six or so.
24 Q. And what route did you take in order to get back to Potocari?
25 A. We went back the normal route we came to, so via Bratunac.
1 Q. Okay. The same route that you had taken --
2 A. The same route, yes.
3 Q. Did you again pass that football field in Nova Kasaba on your way?
4 A. I did. But I don't have any recollection of -- of the men who are
5 in or on the football field. Because I was inside the BOV, I didn't have
6 a clear view, and it was -- the night was falling.
7 Q. You mentioned, however, that you saw a dead body, a dead man, with
8 a rucksack on his back in the road in the road. What kind of -- does a
9 BOV have windows?
10 A. I was sitting in the front, so I could watch outside.
11 Q. So was your vision of this body relatively clear?
12 A. Yes, it was, yes.
13 Q. Could you tell the age of this man?
14 A. It was -- it was an older man. I didn't know how old he was, but
15 he was older.
16 Q. Okay. And did you make any other significant observations along
17 your route back to Potocari that you can tell us about?
18 A. The only thing I can tell you is that there was goods burning
19 in -- nearby the road, that there were infantry, Bosnian Serb infantry
20 were still there and that's it.
21 Q. And to clarify for the Court when you're talking about goods
22 burning, what specifically are you referring to?
23 A. Well, I saw a lot of personal belongings like rucksacks and backs
24 but they were all together and burning. But it wasn't a place where,
25 let's say, rucksacks and bags are all together and then set on fire.
1 Q. Okay. When did you arrive back to Potocari?
2 A. It was about 9.00 in the evening.
3 Q. And what happened next?
4 A. Well, next I reported everything I saw to the operation of -- the
5 operations section of DutchBat. I typed my report, and I've waited for
6 permission to go back to Zagreb with -- with the rest of the battalion. I
7 didn't leave the enclave at that time.
8 Q. And you left when, the compound?
9 A. We all left at July 24th.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
11 MS. SOLJAN: I have no more questions, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are now going to proceed.
13 THE INTERPRETER: [Microphone not activated] -- for the Presiding
14 Judge, please.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I apologise to you.
16 We are going to proceed now with the various cross-examinations.
17 Have you determined who is going first this time? I suppose Mr. Ostojic.
18 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour, I'd like to go first, and it's by
19 agreement of my colleagues and I appreciate that. With your permission,
20 of course.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means, Mr. Ostojic.
22 Mr. Ostojic is appearing for Colonel Beara who is an accused in
23 this trial.
24 Mr. Ostojic.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
1 May I proceed, Your Honour?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:
4 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Egbers, good morning, how are you, sir?
5 A. Good morning. Thank you.
6 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you a series of questions, and I think
7 although I have an outline I'd like to first go with a description of an
8 individual that you met in July of 1995, if you will. Is your
9 recollection of the events that occurred in 1995 still fresh in your mind?
10 A. Well, that depends on what -- on what, of course.
11 Q. Well, we'll break it down, thank you. How about your meeting with
12 Mr. -- or Major Zoran Malinic? Is that fresh in your mind?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. And as you sit here, sir, you remember what he looks like;
16 A. I do.
17 Q. It's fresh in your mind today?
18 A. Well, I haven't seen him for 11 years, but I have described him as
19 a major with black hair, with some grey or white pieces of hair.
20 Q. Well, you never said grey, but I'll accept that if you want to
21 modify it, with black hair?
22 A. What did I say?
23 Q. Well, on page 29, line -- 19 through 21 of your testimony, you
24 described Major Zoran Malinic as having dark black hair with white colour.
25 As you sit here, did he have grey or was it just white or you
1 can't remember?
2 A. At that time, I thought it was white, but it could as also be grey
3 because man born in 1961 could have grey hair in 1995.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. But it was specific. I wrote it down.
6 Q. And you wrote it down where, sir?
7 A. I didn't write it down at that time in notes, but shortly after
8 that I was debriefed six weeks after I left the enclave, and then it was
9 written down by the investigators.
10 Q. Forgive me for asking, but blonde is not black; correct?
11 A. Well --
12 Q. Well, I don't know, I want to make sure we have the same
13 terminology. Blonde is almost like a yellowish colour; correct?
14 A. I think it's correct.
15 Q. Okay. Now when you described Major Zoran Malinic you described
16 him as being tall. Would you estimate -- can you estimate for us how tall
17 you believe he was?
18 A. He was not as tall as you are.
19 Q. Well, that's pretty obvious maybe, right? But thank you for that.
20 Was he taller or shorter than you?
21 A. We had the same length, I thought.
22 Q. And how tall are you, sir?
23 A. I'll do it in metres. 188.
24 Q. Of course. Now, you also mentioned that you met General Mladic
25 during your tenure while you were serving for DutchBat III in Srebrenica
1 and Potocari. Can you tell us how tall General Mladic is?
2 A. He's shorter than you and shorter than me.
3 Q. Okay. Well -- and how much shorter is he than you, sir?
4 A. There were other things to focus on at that time.
5 Q. So you don't know?
6 A. Well, he's shorter, and I think he's approximately 20 or 30
7 centimetres shorter than I am.
8 Q. So that would make him what then, 158, or 168?
9 A. I don't know. I don't know.
10 MS. SOLJAN: Objection. Calls for speculation, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
12 Go ahead. Next question, Mr. Ostojic.
13 MR. OSTOJIC:
14 Q. Sir, when you first -- you gave three reports to the Office of the
15 Prosecutor: One in 1995, as I recall; one in 1999; and then one again in
16 2000. Do you remember that?
17 A. I do remember the 1995 report I wrote myself.
18 Q. And that's the report that was closest to the time frame or the
19 events that occurred because it was in 1995, the events that we're
20 discussing; correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Okay. Now, if I can tell you in your report dated October 24,
23 1995, with the Office of the Prosecutor, you described Mr. Malinic, and I
24 will get that for you and cite it to the Court for the record and to the
25 Prosecutor. And if they can look at ERN number 00443212, which is page 6
1 of that report. And with the Court's permission -- and with the Court's
2 permission, that's dated October 24, 1995.
3 Let me read it first and I'll invite you to look at it on the ELMO
4 in a second. You described Mr. Major Malinic and you described him as
5 follows --
6 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, could the counsel say the number in
7 e-court, 65 ter number, please.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: It's 2D00019. But I'd like to ask him first before
9 we show him, but we could do it that way. Whatever.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it should be done simultaneously,
11 Mr. Ostojic.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough. And if we could have the usher please
13 place the first page on the report so he can identify it and then the last
14 page, and then I'll ask the question.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That's how we should proceed.
16 MR. OSTOJIC:
17 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Egbers, do you see the first page of the
19 A. I see the first page of the report.
20 Q. And it has your name on it, correct, with the date that I just
21 referenced, the 24th of October, 1995; correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Now if we can direct your attention to the last page of the
24 report, please. It doesn't seem to have a signature page. Did you ever
25 sign the report?
1 A. Well, it's not -- it's not signed, so I didn't sign this report.
2 Q. Do you know why you didn't sign it?
3 A. It says that it's signed.
4 Q. But there's no signature, though, but ...
5 A. I didn't sign the translation in English, no.
6 Q. You signed the Dutch version?
7 A. I think so, yes
8 Q. Now if I can -- how sure are you of your description of Major
9 Zoran Malinic as having dark hair with some white?
10 A. I was sure when I wrote the report and I was asked about it. I
11 told them how I thought he had his hair.
12 Q. Do you know if he had any curls? Like curly hair?
13 A. Yes. I know the person but they have to type it out.
14 Q. Well, did you tell them if he had curls or not?
15 A. There were some.
16 Q. Okay. Black curls or white curls?
17 A. I don't recall that.
18 Q. Okay. Well, let me direct your attention to page 6 of your
19 report, sir.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: And if we could enlarge the first paragraph that
21 would be helpful.
22 Q. I'm going to focus on the fifth line down, sir. It starts
23 basically: "He was dressed --" do you notice that we're talking about
24 Zoran Malinic born in 1961? Do you see that on the fourth line?
25 A. I see that.
1 Q. And then the text proceeds to state as follows: "He was dressed
2 in camouflage uniform and had no insignia distinguishing his rank."
3 Who are we talking about here?
4 A. We are talking about Major Zoran Malinic.
5 Q. Okay. That's what I thought. Thank you. You proceed to
6 state: "He was about 1.85 metres tall."
7 We're still talking about Major Malinic; correct?
8 A. We are still.
9 Q. Okay. Next one. "He had grey hair with blonde curls."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. I see that.
12 Q. Are we still talking about Major Zoran Malinic?
13 A. We are still talking about him.
14 Q. Now, as I asked you earlier, your description on page 29 of
15 Mr. Zoran -- or Major Malinic, lines 19 through 21, was that he had dark
16 black hair with white colour. In your report of the 24th of October,
17 1995, you describe him as having "grey hair with blonde curls." Could
18 you, sir, reconcile that for me? How do you go from black to blonde, or
19 from white to grey?
20 A. Well, as I recall him, and I can imagine him because it was on a
21 very hot day in 1995, that day I never forget, that he had black hair. So
22 it says here that he had grey hair, but it should have been black at that
23 time with some grey or white in it. So he didn't change. He didn't
24 change in my memory. You're correct that it says grey hair. And I've
25 always talked about black hair.
1 Q. And it talks about --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Can the witness be shown the original
3 statement in Dutch, please.
4 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, we don't have it immediately here but
5 we'll call up for it and have it as soon as possible.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Does it exist in e-court?
7 MS. SOLJAN: I don't think so.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So if you could please make it available.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: We would like a copy if at all possible also. We
10 never did receive that one.
11 May I proceed, Your Honour?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
14 Q. So as far as you're concerned that's basically the same person
15 with the same description, although somewhat different; correct?
16 A. I'm still talking about Major Zoran Malinic who I met in 1995 and
17 described him as a man as tall as I am with -- with grey -- with dark
18 hair. What was the question?
19 Q. I'll move on.
20 A. Okay. Thank you.
21 Q. I think I understand where you're coming from.
22 Sir, Ms. Soljan asked you questions about whether you heard
23 certain firings during approximately the 12th through the 14th of July,
24 1995. Do you remember when she asked you about that, whether you heard
25 shots? And then she asked you to describe what type of gunfire you would
1 have -- I don't want to say speculated or guessed, but what you thought
2 was being used. Do you remember that?
3 A. I remember that.
4 Q. Okay. Now before that July 12th or 13th period, did you suffer
5 any injuries to your body?
6 A. Well, I was shelled when I was at blocking position Bravo 1, and
7 there were mortars fired on, let's say, 20 or 30 metres from me, so at
8 that time I've had a beep in my ear for -- for the entire day, but not at
9 that time.
10 Q. Well, what time period are you talking about?
11 A. When I was at Bravo 1, we were shelled by the Bosnian Serbs, and
12 then I had a small injury at my ear for, let's say, the entire day,
13 because there was an explosion nearby. Is that what you're referring to?
14 Q. Well, I'm referring to any injury you may have suffered, sir. Is
15 that the only injury you suffered?
16 A. That's the only --
17 Q. The ear?
18 A. That's the only injury I've had.
19 Q. And when was that?
20 A. That was a few days before that. That was on the 9th or 10th of
21 July. But it's in my testimony. I'm sure you looked it up.
22 Q. Thank you for having that confidence if me. I appreciate that.
23 Sir, when you talk about shelling and all that, isn't it true that
24 on July 8th it was the Muslim fighters who had thrown hand-grenades
25 between your vehicles?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Okay. And how often did the Muslim fighters throw hand-grenades
3 at your vehicles?
4 A. They were -- that was only that day at that time that the Muslim
5 fighters tried to keep us there and threw a grenade at us.
6 Q. How many times that day did they throw the grenade at you?
7 A. As I can recall, it's only that day that the Muslim fighters threw
8 a hand-grenade at the APC.
9 Q. So that would be one time?
10 A. I think that that was one time, but I don't know whether it was
11 one or two grenades.
12 Q. I thought in your statement of the 24th of October you state
13 plural, grenades. Would you like to read it through to refresh your
15 A. No.
16 Q. Was that before or after you'd turned back to Bravo Company?
17 A. The throwing of the grenades was at the first day, the day of
18 the 8th, in the evening when I had to go south in the enclave. Then the
19 grenades were thrown, and I got back to the headquarters of the Bravo
20 Company, and then I've got to go to Bravo 1.
21 Q. So after the grenades were thrown, you returned back to
22 Bravo Company; correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Now, describe for us, if you will, sir, what those Muslim fighters
25 who threw the grenades at you or at your vehicles, what they were dressed
2 A. I've seen Muslim fighters in the south of the enclave. Some
3 were -- some were -- had Ukraine uniforms on. Others were just in
4 civilian clothes. They were having RPG-7 with them and a machine-gun, so
5 they were armed at that time.
6 Q. How about AK-47s? Were they armed with that as well?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, according to your statement, the following day you were asked
9 to proceed to support other vehicles in Srebrenica. Do you remember that?
10 A. I do remember that.
11 Q. Is that accurate?
12 A. I don't --
13 Q. Is that accurate, correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Okay. Do you recall if at that time, the next day when you were
16 ordered to support other vehicles in Srebrenica, whether Muslim fighters
17 started shooting at you at that time as well?
18 A. That's correct. I was -- the APCs were shot by AK-47s at that
19 time, and I had -- one soldier had a light injury at his arm.
20 Q. Do you recall the type of weapons that the Muslim fighters had on
21 that next day, July 9th, 1995?
22 A. I saw a piece of artillery. I thought it was a Mike 48 because
23 I've looked it up in 1995. A piece of artillery hidden in the exact
24 position where we had Bravo 1. So it was a few metres from us away.
25 Let's say 40, 50 metres.
1 Q. Anything other than that piece of artillery? Is it Mike 48?
2 A. It's -- it's a Mike 48. That's what I thought it was. And I
3 asked the Muslim fighters not to fire the gun because we were in the
4 neighbourhood. And it didn't fire, but it was there.
5 Q. What other types of weapons did you see the Muslim fighters having
6 on July 9th, 1995, other than this artillery, piece of artillery Mike 48?
7 A. I only saw the RPG-7. I saw the machine-gun and the AK-47.
8 Q. Now, was there anything significant that happened on July 9, 1995,
9 that you recall as you sit here, such as other units or other DutchBat
10 personnel being attacked in other areas by Muslim fighters?
11 A. I think the only attack we had was by leaving an observation post
12 in the south of the enclave where one of our soldiers got killed. Do
13 you -- do you point at that?
14 Q. No.
15 A. You don't.
16 Q. I don't. Because I think that happened the 8th of July?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Okay. So we're already past the 8th of July and we're now on the
19 9th of July, the second attack by the Muslim fighters. And I'm asking you
20 other than the attack that occurred with you, did you have any information
21 that any other units on July 9, 1995, were being attacked by Muslim
22 fighters in the enclave?
23 A. I can't recall that.
24 Q. Do you recall ever discussing with Captain Hageman whether or not
25 he was under fire and under attack by Muslim fighters?
1 A. I joined captain -- this captain at the marketplace in Srebrenica,
2 and when I was there there was no firing at us. There were Muslim
3 fighters with the weapons I just described. They were aiming at us, so
4 they wanted us -- them -- they wanted us to stay at the marketplace, but
5 they didn't fire at us at that time. And I don't know whether Captain
6 Hageman was -- was under Muslim fire.
7 Q. Okay. If we can have 2D19, placed on the e-court screen again,
9 And I'd like -- and Lieutenant Colonel, it's the same document
10 that we've looked at previously, just so you know. I'm going to turn to
11 page 3 of that document, if I may. And directing your attention, if I
12 may, to the second paragraph which starts with: "We took up our position
13 about 400 metres further on."
14 Do you see that?
15 A. I'm sorry. You said -- yes, I see that.
16 Q. Several sentences below that - I'm just directing your attention
17 sir, thank you - it says: "I then received the order to support the four
18 other vehicles in Srebrenica. We left our position and the Muslim
19 fighters started shooting at us."
20 Do you see that?
21 A. I see that.
22 Q. And then the next paragraph you describe that -- do you see when
23 it starts "In Srebrenica."
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. It states: " ... I saw many armed Muslims ..." And then you
1 describe the weapons that they had.
2 My question at this point, sir, is: When you say "many," how many
3 do you mean, or how many did you see, if you can recall?
4 A. At that time, I think there were 50 or 60 men.
5 Q. The following sentence - again I'm directing your attention - is
6 on the fourth line. It states as follows: "We drove to another four
7 vehicles which belonged to us and we were under the command of Captain
9 Do you see that?
10 A. I see that.
11 Q. Okay. And it's the same captain we were just discussing; correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Am I pronouncing his name incorrectly, is that why you're smiling?
14 A. No, it's not bad.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you. You proceed to state on this document that you
16 signed: "He told me over the radio," and I'll stop there. Who are we
17 referring to when it says "he"?
18 A. That must be Captain Hageman.
19 Q. Okay. Let me just proceed. "He told me over the radio that he
20 was under fire by the local Muslim fighters and therefore he could not
21 move his vehicles."
22 Do you see that?
23 A. I see that.
24 Q. Does that, sir, refresh your recollection that in fact other units
25 of DutchBat other than yourself on the 9th of July, 1995, were under
2 A. Well, as I told you before, he was on the marketplace with his
3 vehicles and he radioed me, as I read it, that he had -- he had some fire
4 on his APC, but not when I was there, and not on my APC at that time.
5 Q. That's fair. But as you sit here now, you now recall that you had
6 this radio teleconference with Captain Hageman and he informed you he was
7 under attack by the Muslim fighters?
8 A. Well, I don't recall it because it was not that very important to
9 me. But I wrote it down, I'm sure about that, that this is signed as
11 Q. And it's accurate; correct?
12 A. As I -- as I recall. I don't think about -- I didn't have a clear
13 view about Captain Hageman's position at that time. I can only tell you
14 about what happened to me, and I don't know whether he was under attack.
15 I wrote it down because that's what he told me on the radio, but that's
17 Q. Thank you for that. Sir, during those two days when DutchBat was
18 under attack by various Muslim fighters, can you explain to us if you know
19 why they were under attack by Muslim fighters?
20 A. I don't think that we were under attack by Muslim fighters. I can
21 only tell you about what happened to me. When I left Bravo 1 to join
22 the -- the other APCs who are on the marketplace, there was AK-47 fire to
23 my APC, and I'm sure that there was fire because they were sure that we
24 would abandon them, and we couldn't tell them that we were leaving for the
25 marketplace in Srebrenica town to -- to help out there. So their reaction
1 was -- were a few rounds of fire to the APC.
2 Q. A few rounds that Captain Hageman couldn't even leave; correct?
3 A. I just told you about what happened to me at Bravo 1. Captain
4 Hageman was on the marketplace in Srebrenica town. That was his
5 experience. But you don't have to fire at APCs to make sure that -- that
6 they don't leave. Just threatening is enough, of course.
7 Q. Now, share with me, sir, where you state on page 67, line 4,
8 or 5 -- 3 through 4 "because they were sure that we would abandon them."
9 Who did you talk to specifically that you obtained that information from?
10 A. I contacted the -- the group of Muslim who were nearby the piece
11 of artillery, and I tried to arrange that they wouldn't fire the piece of
12 artillery because we were in the neighbourhood. What he did was he wrote
13 down a note to his commanding officer who was in I guess Srebrenica or
14 Potocari, and until that time he didn't use the gun or the piece of
15 artillery. So he -- we tried to -- to get in contact with them, with
16 those 10 men who were surrounding the -- the piece of artillery. He was
17 writing a note. The note went down to the -- I think the man who was in
18 charge of them, and during that time we had -- we had contact. So that
19 was the group. And we tried to have a good relationship, not to, of
20 course, to fire at each other. So ...
21 Q. But your DutchBat tried to have that good relationship with both
22 sides, the Serbs and the Muslims. Isn't that correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And, now, did you make a report as to the person that you talked
25 to on the Muslim side that was actually shooting or threatening to shoot
2 A. What I did was to radio it to the Bravo Company, the Captain Groen
3 who was in command of the Bravo Company, and he wrote everything down. I
4 didn't make a report at that time.
5 Q. And the individual that you spoke to, what was his rank?
6 A. I don't think you can -- you can -- you can have a rank on -- on
7 this man because he was just a civilian with a weapon. He didn't have
8 a -- they didn't wear uniforms. They were just there. Some had a weapon,
9 and that's it.
10 Q. Well, what did they do with the Ukrainian uniforms, just carry
11 them in a bag or over their arm? I thought you had described earlier for
12 me that they were dressed in camouflage and had Ukrainian uniforms on.
13 A. When I talked about the Ukrainian uniforms, it was worn by men who
14 were in the south of the enclave. They were not nearby Bravo 1. And it's
15 not so. The picture is there were a few men who would wear these
16 uniforms, but it's a small person -- a small persons of the group, just a
17 few men.
18 Q. How many men were there? I know on the first day, on the 8th of
19 July, you had estimated there were approximately 60 men; correct? And now
20 on the 9th of July how much would your estimate be?
21 A. I didn't have any observations in the south of the enclave at that
22 time. The only thing I saw was the 10 men who were -- who were nearby
23 Bravo 1 with this piece of artillery we called Mike 48.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Soljan.
25 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, I apologise for interrupting
1 Mr. Ostojic, but we just received the Dutch translation or the original of
2 the 24th October, 1995, statement of the witness.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If is it convenient for both of you, or for
4 you in particular, Mr. Ostojic, perhaps we can go back to that paragraph
5 where he describes Malinic's hair again and see how it's written in the
6 Dutch language. I think it was page -- page 6 in the English version. I
7 wouldn't know what page it is in the --
8 THE WITNESS: Perhaps I could give one.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. I will as soon as they're distributed, Your
10 Honour, or whatever you'd like.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Just give him a chance to do that.
12 Yes, for the witness.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Just to go back on the record, Your Honour, if I
14 may, just so that the record is somewhat clear. The witness has been
15 given a copy of what purports to be the 24th of October, 1995, statement
16 that he gave to the ICTY in his language, which is Dutch, and he will
17 direct us to the page when he finds it.
18 If I can direct the witness to page 6 of that document, which has
19 ERN number 00353520, and it's the second full paragraph -- or third full
20 paragraph, I'm sorry, and it's mid -- mid-paragraph on that third
22 Q. And please, Mr. Lieutenant Colonel Egbers, just let me know when
23 you've found it.
24 A. I found it in the Dutch language, and it said that he had grey
25 hair. It said -- let's see. He had grey hair. I see "grey" over there.
1 Q. And he does, and it says there, and we could maybe make it out,
2 but doesn't he also use the word "blonde" right next to that word or in
3 the next sentence?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That's what I'm emphasising, as I'm sure you know. It says blonde
6 what? Blonde locks, right --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- in your language, or blonde curls as it may be translated.
10 A. I don't know whether it's a good translation of the locks. In
11 Dutch it says "blonde locks," but I refer when I see him in my mind I see
12 a man with black hair with some grey or blonde pieces of hair. It was
13 very particular because I haven't seen it before. And I'm sure that
14 you've got a photograph of this man for us now to see how he really looks.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: I don't know if the Court has any other questions on
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, no. It's just to make sure what -- because he
19 said earlier on that he had drawn up this himself, so we now have it in
20 the Dutch language, and we --
21 MR. OSTOJIC: And that's why I'm just checking if the Court had
22 anything else. I would move on from this section.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely not.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We intervene as little as we can.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. And we will get to some photographs
2 later hopefully a little later, Lieutenant Colonel.
3 Q. But right now I'm going to focus back on July 10, 1995, as we just
4 discussed July 8, 9, so the next day we'd like to discuss is July 10. Do
5 you recall, sir, when the F-16 bombed Serb military in Srebrenica or
6 around that area?
7 A. I can recall that.
8 Q. And what date was that?
9 A. That was on the last day that I was there.
10 Q. And what day --
11 A. At Bravo 1. I don't have all -- it was on the fourth day, so it
12 was 8, 9, 10, 11th. July 11th.
13 Q. It was on July 11. After the -- strike that.
14 Do you know how many tanks, if any, those F-16s that shot at the
15 Serb military, how many tanks they took out, if any?
16 A. I only know that there was one tank who was between us and the
17 town of Srebrenica, and that it didn't move, it didn't fire at us after
18 the attack. That's the often thing -- I didn't have a clear view on the
19 tank itself. I don't know whether it was hit or it was -- I don't know
21 Q. Thank you. I'll accept that.
22 A. Yes. Okay.
23 Q. Thank you. Sir, after that date do you know if the evacuation of
24 the people in Potocari began?
25 A. Not on the same day but a day later.
1 Q. So the 12th of July?
2 A. That must be it.
3 Q. Do you recall, sir, when the Muslim male column, military column
4 was moving towards the north-westernly direction from the area of
5 Srebrenica approximately?
6 A. I don't know that. I don't know what happened in the north of the
7 enclave. I wasn't there at the time.
8 Q. So as you sit here today, you don't know if they left on the 8th,
9 9th or any time thereafter; correct?
10 A. I was at Bravo 1 at that time. Later on I was at Srebrenica and
11 Potocari, and I wasn't at the observation post or nearby where the men get
12 out to get out of the enclave. So I don't know that.
13 Q. And, sir, do you recall obtaining orders from your commander? Was
14 Lieutenant Colonel Franken one of your commanders? He was the second man
15 in charge, correct, of DutchBat III?
16 A. He was the second man in command, but at the time I was at Bravo 1
17 I was under the command of Captain Groen, and he was the one who had
18 contact with this Major Franken.
19 Q. I thank you for that. So you never had any contact directly with
20 Major Franken; is that right?
21 A. I had a day later on when I had to escort the first convoy.
22 Q. And that was the 13th of July; correct?
23 A. Must be.
24 Q. We'll get to that. Did you ever hear from your immediate
25 commander or from Major Franken whether or not he received a verbal order
1 to assist in the evacuation of the people in Potocari?
2 A. I've talked about this with Major Franken. He told me that he
3 wanted to have a DutchBat soldier on every bus, that he tried to negotiate
4 that, but the only thing he had approval of was a vehicle escorting the
5 buses. So that's the only thing I can say about that, sorry.
6 Q. That's okay, don't be sorry. If it's your best recollection,
7 we'll accept it.
8 So you don't know what, if any, order Major Franken received to
9 cooperate or to support the evacuation of the refugees; correct?
10 A. I don't know whether he has to support the evacuation. The only
11 thing I knew was that it was very hot, there was no water left, and it was
12 the only thing we could do was join the buses.
13 Q. You will agree with me that he's probably the best one that would
14 be able to tell us if he was to support the evacuation; correct?
15 A. I can't answer that.
16 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I'd like to discuss with you briefly the topic
17 of -- that you mentioned in your direct examination today. You mention
18 when you weapon this first convoy was approximately when, the 12th of
19 July, 1995?
20 A. I'm sure you've looked it up.
21 Q. I have but I'm not testifying. So if you don't know, I'll help
22 you but --
23 A. Help me, please.
24 Q. Okay. Well, I thought you said the 12th of July, 1995. But
25 whatever date it is we'll accept it, okay? It's the first time you took
2 A. The first convoy.
3 Q. And approximately 14 buses; correct?
4 A. 12 to 14, I think so.
5 Q. 12 to 14. Do you remember telling the Prosecutor that you were in
6 the -- towards the end or the very end of the convoy?
7 A. I was.
8 Q. And did you have at that time radio equipment with you?
9 A. I had.
10 Q. And in fact I think you shared with us that you radioed back to
11 inform your commander or your commanding officers what exactly you saw or
12 transpired during that time; correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Now, sir, at one point you testified that you didn't know where
15 the buses or convoys were going. Do you remember that?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Who was in the front of the convoy?
18 A. In the front of the convoy was another vehicle, were two DutchBat
19 officers were in, Major Boering and a captain.
20 Q. Now, if Major Boering and a captain were leading the convoy and
21 you were behind the convoy, how could you not know where the convoy was
22 going? Couldn't you have radioed Major Boering to find out?
23 A. I didn't at that time know whether he had the same radio contact
24 with my observation post, because as I started my testimony, you know I
25 was in charge of observation post Alpha, and I always had contact with
1 observation post Alpha. But nobody told us where the buses would go to.
2 We just had to follow.
3 Q. Well, did you call him and ask him where he was going since he was
4 in the lead vehicle on this convoy?
5 A. Well, he wasn't the one with -- he wasn't the one in front of the
6 convoy and everybody following him. That was not -- that was not the case
7 at that time. He was in -- he was forward. He wasn't the one who say,
8 "Follow me, I know where to go to." He was in the front of the convoy.
9 Q. Not having talked to him as I thought you said, how do you know
10 that he didn't know or that he was not in the front of the convoy? How do
11 you know that?
12 A. I know that because we were told that we had to take everything we
13 needed as water, food, sleeping bags. We didn't know where to go to. We
14 just had to follow the buses. But nobody told me that they would go to
16 Q. Just so I understand your testimony, I apologise, but -- so is it
17 your testimony that Colonel Boering was not in the front leading the
18 convoy but he was somewhere towards the front of this 14- or 12-bus
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Just tell me what you think it is.
22 A. I'll just wait once she's typed out.
23 Q. Take your time.
24 A. You just made a picture of following the car of Major Boering, so
25 "Follow me, I know where to go," but we didn't know where the buses were
1 going to. And I was on the -- I was nearby the last bus to leave the
2 enclave and that's where I was, and I was always in contact with OP Alpha.
3 So I don't know whether this Major Boering knew anything else than
4 I did, but I didn't know that, and I radioed that towards OP Alpha.
5 Q. Now during this trip, how long did it take you to get to your
6 ultimate destination?
7 A. I think it was over an hour.
8 Q. Were you delayed for any reason during this first convoy trip that
9 you made on the 12th of July, 1995?
10 A. As I said earlier, one bus broke down and the bus was on side of
11 the road and I stopped with the bus. So the other buses, they drove on,
12 and I stopped there.
13 Q. And is it that time, sir, that you stopped at that bus that you
14 obtain the assistance of a new bus or a bus that already had other people
15 being evacuated that you helped load on? I'm unclear with your statements
16 really about that.
17 A. At that time whether the bus stopped I took everybody out of the
18 bus, and the driver asked me whether he could use my vehicle to get
19 another bus, but I didn't -- I didn't do that. I just kept my -- my own
20 vehicle and my own stuff with me at that time and another bus got arranged
21 at that time, but it wasn't an empty bus. It was -- it was coming back
22 from Kladanj. It was a new bus. I don't know where it came from.
23 Q. I thought you just said it came from Kladanj. You don't know
24 where it came from, or you do?
25 A. I didn't say that it was an empty bus coming from Kladanj that we
1 could use again. So it was a bus but it could have been from Zvornik as
3 Q. Fair enough. The next day you also escorted a convoy of people
4 evacuated towards the same route; correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Okay. Did you also at that time, sir, experience a delay or
7 something that would cause you to interrupt your complete and -- trip to
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And there --
12 Q. What happened on that second day? Sorry.
13 A. I didn't testify about that yet, but there was another bus broke
14 down; it was on the way from Milici to Kladanj. And there was a colonel
15 in a black uniform with yellow ranking who -- who helped to get another
16 bus, and that might have been a bus coming from Kladanj. I can't recall
17 that. And that all the people could get into that bus and proceed to
19 Q. I'm ultra-sensitive when you mention "colonel." But in fact you
20 had met -- this is the first time that you met some other colonel. It's
21 not Colonel Beara that you recall; correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Okay. Can you describe this colonel in black uniform with a
24 yellow insignia, please?
25 A. I can't describe him better than what I have just done, but it was
1 a colonel wearing a black uniform wearing a yellow rank on his chest, and
2 that's it.
3 Q. What did the rank state?
4 A. I'm sorry?
5 Q. What did the rank state.
6 A. That it was -- at that time I believed it was a colonel.
7 Q. Were there other people with him?
8 A. There were three people with him.
9 Q. And how long did you spend time with him there?
10 A. Five minutes.
11 Q. Now, within those five minutes, sir, were you able to communicate
12 with him?
13 A. No.
14 Q. How do you -- not other than just this bus broke down, can you
15 arrange one, and he did it within five minutes.
16 Q. And how did you communicate to him that he would be able to
17 arrange a bus for you? Did you have an interpreter or did you -- sign
18 language again, maybe?
19 A. I only had to point out the bus -- the bus broke down and that --
20 you know, it's not a very difficult situation to explain what happened.
21 Q. I'm not suggesting that it is.
22 A. No. So I just pointed at the bus and I wanted another bus and
23 that's what he arranged. And the only thing I know now and I knew then
24 that it was -- he was in a black uniform. That was extraordinary. I
25 couldn't recall his face; I've seen him for five minutes.
1 Q. Do you know what type of car or vehicle he was driving?
2 A. He was -- he drove in a luxurious car. It wasn't a military car
3 at that time.
4 Q. When you say "luxurious," what does that mean? Is that like an
5 Opel Omega?
6 A. Yeah, it's like an Omega, yes.
7 Q. Well, I don't have that kind of car, I'm sorry.
8 A. I've got to look it up in the statement because I don't know.
9 Q. But as you recall it was a luxurious car; correct?
10 A. No, it wasn't an army car, and that's what it's about, right? It
11 was just a normal car.
12 Q. Do you recall when it was a Volkswagen?
13 A. I can't recall. I've got to look it up.
14 Q. We'll look it up in a second. Do you recall this yellow rank?
15 Can you describe it more vividly for us, please. Or the yellow insignia,
16 actually, I'm sorry.
17 A. Not right now. I have looked it up in a small book we had where
18 the ranking of the Bosnian Serb army was in. So at that time I could see
19 that it was a colonel.
20 Q. If -- if you had spent another five minutes, let's say, with this
21 colonel, would you have been better able to describe him than you have
22 today? For example, if you'd spent 10 minutes with him, do you think
23 you'd be better able to describe him?
24 A. Well, it -- it depends on the situation you meet people. I can
25 describe you --
1 Q. Please don't.
2 A. I -- you know, because this is an unpleasant situation, you're
3 cross-examining me, and of course I know you, but I don't know the man who
4 is sitting next to you. I can't describe him. So when it's -- it's in a
5 stressful situation and you just have five minutes and there's a lot of
6 going on at that time, I didn't write it down how -- how he looked.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, Mr. Ostojic.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Sorry?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to something else.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: He was answering, I didn't want to cut him off.
11 Q. Sir, let me ask you: This yellow emblem or insignia that you saw,
12 did you see that on Colonel Beara on the 14th of July, 1995?
13 A. As I recall now, I saw something like that on his uniform, but I
14 don't know whether it was the same symbol because it was a yellow symbol
15 on the black uniform. I don't know whether it's correct, but you can --
16 you can of course look it up, whether there were soldiers wearing black
17 uniforms with yellow insignias.
18 Q. And we will look it up. Thank you for that.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: I'd ask that the statement of the 24th of October,
20 1995, be placed on the ELMO and that the witness Lieutenant Colonel Egbers
21 be given perhaps, if he wishes, the Dutch version of his statement, or the
22 original version of his statement.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he should have the Dutch version available
24 at his disposal.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Let me put the question --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: For whatever use he might need to make of it.
2 And the English version is in e-court and should be already on the
3 screen. It is.
4 Yes. Which page do you want us to go to?
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Page 6 again, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 6.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: I think. But I'd like to offer the witness that he
8 can look through the entire document for purposes of my question.
9 Q. And I would like for him, while he's looking, to point out, if I
10 may ask, where in fact in his statement in 1995 he states that Colonel
11 Beara had a yellow insignia or emblem.
12 A. I didn't use the word "yellow." Do you want me to look for the
13 word "yellow"?
14 Q. What word did you use? Pink, red?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: In his testimony a few minutes ago he did not use
16 the word "yellow" in relation to Colonel Beara.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 MR. OSTOJIC: Then let me clarify that, Your Honour, and I
19 apologise for that if I've misunderstood him.
20 I wanted to know specifically from this --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: You have every right to clarify it, but he never
22 used the word "yellow" in relation --
23 MR. OSTOJIC: If I can just clarify, because I may have
24 misunderstood him, Your Honour, not intentionally, believe me. And if I
25 may just proceed.
1 Q. Sir, did Colonel Beara at any time have a yellow emblem or
2 insignia on his uniform when you purportedly met him on the 14th of July,
4 A. I don't recall that, but I've got to look it up what I've stated
5 in 1995 -- in 1995 about this. But he was dressed in a uniform. That's
6 what I can recall. Shall I --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: One -- one moment, because I think we need to be
8 specific here.
9 On page 79, line 24, your question, Mr. Ostojic, was the
10 following: "This yellow insignia you were mentioning, did you see that on
11 Colonel Beara on the 14th of July, 1995?"
12 And his answer -- the witness's answer was: "I recall now I saw
13 something like that on his uniform, but I don't know whether it was the
14 same symbol, because it was a yellow symbol on the black uniform. And I
15 don't know whether it's correct, but you can -- you can of course look it
16 up, whether there were soldiers wearing black uniforms with yellow
18 So that was his answer. So he never really agreed that -- that
19 whatever he may have seen on Colonel Beara was a yellow insignia.
20 But you can, of course, proceed with your line of questions on
21 this matter to elicit further information.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. And I think I have a question pending if
23 I'm not --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: [Microphone not activated].
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: Can I answer the question?
5 MR. OSTOJIC:
6 Q. Yes, sir. Just direct our attention.
7 A. It's page 7, and I describe there that on Friday, 14th of July, I
8 made contact with Colonel Beara, and that's the -- that's the same
9 military language that I've met him. I've spoken to him and he read the
10 explanation. He -- where -- so he had -- he was a colonel for me. This
11 man. You see that?
12 Q. I do see it, sir.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. If I could read it into the record, if the Court permits.
15 A. Okay.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead. I was reading it myself.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll read it into the
18 record so we have a clean transcript of the proceedings.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. I think it needs to be read, otherwise
20 we'd have to have the statement --
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Great.
22 "On Friday, 14th July 1995, I contacted Colonel Beara in the
23 morning. I spoke to him. He read the statement and nothing was
24 discussed. This man wore badges denoting he was a colonel. He wore
25 camouflage uniform."
1 There's obviously more which I'll get to in a minute. And if I
2 can, with your permission, just stop there.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
6 MR. OSTOJIC:
7 Q. Sir, directing your attention to that specifically, that you have
8 in front of you as well, and that I've read out you, you state that this
9 man wore badges denoting he was a colonel. Can you describe the badges
10 for us?
11 A. I cannot do that because we all had a UN book with the military
12 ranking of the Bosnian Serb army in it, and it's -- it's a normal book and
13 that's where the ranking is. I can't describe you the things he wore on
14 his uniform, but I've looked it up and it was a colonel at that time. I
15 don't have the book with me.
16 Q. As you sit here, sir, do you have any independent recollection as
17 to whether or not he had a yellow badge or a yellow insignia on his
18 uniform; he, being Colonel Beara?
19 A. I know that he had a -- he wore the uniform of a colonel, and I
20 don't know whether it was yellow, or pink as you call it.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: The uniform?
22 MR. OSTOJIC: No, I think that -- I apologise for the -- I think I
23 was perhaps -- used the word "pink," and I think he's just responding to
24 that and I apologise to the witness and to the Court for that.
25 Q. At any time, sir, in any of your statements or testimonies did you
1 ever testify that Colonel Beara had a yellow insignia or badge on his
3 A. I don't recall that.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. I know that there was a black uniform - we discussed that - with a
6 yellow insignia. That's it.
7 Q. The black uniform with the yellow insignia was the other colonel;
9 A. Was the other colonel.
10 Q. We don't know how tall he is, do you?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. You don't recall the colour of his hair; correct?
13 A. I can't recall it right now.
14 Q. Do you recall giving your testimony, sir, in the Krstic case?
15 A. I've been here before, on the Krstic case.
16 Q. So do you recall testifying in that case, sir?
17 A. I -- as I stated.
18 Q. And that was in -- was that before or after your April 30, 2000
19 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor where you looked -- watched that
20 video that we just saw this afternoon?
21 A. I don't know when the -- when it was that the Krstic case was
23 Q. Okay. I think you testified April 6.
24 A. I think so.
25 Q. 2000; correct?
1 A. I'm sure about that.
2 Q. Now, you don't have an independent recollection of Colonel Beara
3 having a yellow emblem or badge on his uniform, and you don't recall
4 testifying about that in Krstic; correct?
5 A. I didn't read the testimony I did on colonel -- or General Krstic
6 case. Perhaps there was a recollection then but there is no recollection
7 now about anything about a yellow sign on the uniform of Colonel Beara.
8 Q. Okay. Well, let's -- before we go to your statement, let's look
9 at your 1999 statement to see if you mention any badges about Colonel
10 Beara at all.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: If I can direct, with the Court's permission,
12 2D00020. And it's document -- a witness statement dated the -- it says
13 9/7/99, so I'm uncertain if it's September 7th or July 9th of 1999 but ...
14 THE WITNESS: Must be July.
15 MR. OSTOJIC:
16 Q. And, sir, that's your statement as well; correct?
17 A. It's my signature and it is dated on 9th of July.
18 Q. Okay. I've reviewed that document, sir. Would you -- do you --
19 if we can flip through the pages, I think it's actually rather short, and
20 if you could direct or point to us where you mention that Colonel Beara
21 had a yellow emblem or insignia anywhere.
22 And just to facilitate it, I think if you look on page 1 I, think
23 that's when you start discussing the colonel in a black uniform the day
24 before you met with Colonel Beara. Correct?
25 A. You're pointing out regarding the event of the meeting of a Serb
1 colonel in black uniform?
2 Q. I was just directing your attention.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But you're welcome to read the whole thing.
5 A. No, whatever you want. Your English is --
6 MR. OSTOJIC: It might be an appropriate time for a break, I'm not
7 quite sure of it, but maybe with the break, with the Court's permission
8 and obviously the witness's acquiescence, he may look at this document
9 during the break.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We might as well do that. But on the other hand,
13 I'm reading what there is in this statement, and I don't know where you
14 are proceeding with your question, since it says: "The interpreter told
15 me that he was Colonel Beara. I have described Colonel Beara in my
16 previous statement, and I can't add anymore to it.
17 So the matter, as far as I'm concerned, was closed with the first
18 statement, unless you dig up something else. How do you expect him to
19 find details about badges and insignia on Mr. Beara, or Colonel Beara,
20 when he's already closed it down --
21 MR. OSTOJIC: And I agree, Judge. I think it's impossible for him
22 to do that, so that's why my --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's have the break, Mr. Ostojic, and we'll meet
24 in 25 minutes' time.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed, Your Honour? Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 MR. OSTOJIC:
7 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Egbers, several more questions, if you don't
8 mind, and help me through this. Now, you were for how long at an
9 observation post in Srebrenica from January through July of 1995?
10 A. Well, my platoon was at the observation post. I was there a few
11 times, but it's a group of my platoon who managed on the observation post.
12 I was inside the enclave the entire -- the entire time.
13 Q. And part of the duties of the observation post was to conduct
14 surveillance, in essence; correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Which is really a -- just a different word for the word
17 "observation," isn't?
18 A. Well, the observations were from the observation post, and the
19 patrol is inside the enclave, around the border. So we observe from the
20 observation post. Is that what you're --
21 Q. That's close enough. Thank you.
22 Now during the time that you were at Nova Kasaba with Major Zoran
23 Malinic, the 13th and 14th, I think I'm correct on those dates, you spent
24 the night there, I think you mentioned that he offered to play chess with
25 you, just focusing your -- or directing your attention to that. Did you
1 ever discuss with Major Malinic what unit he was from?
2 A. Yes. He told me that he was the chief of more battalions in the
3 south of the enclave -- at the south of Sarajevo. He came from Sarajevo
4 with his men towards the enclave. That's what he told me.
5 Q. And so what was the name of his unit or battalion?
6 A. I can't recall that.
7 Q. Do you remember if he ever told you that and you can't recall it
8 or that he had never told you that?
9 A. I can't recall the name. I don't know whether he told me or not.
10 Q. How much time did you spend with Mr. Beara when you purportedly
11 met him on the 14th of July, 1995?
12 A. I talked to him outside the school for 15 minutes.
13 Q. Fifteen minutes, is that what you said?
14 A. Maximum.
15 Q. And who was translating, if anyone, for you your conversation with
16 Mr. Beara?
17 A. Well, when I got there, when I was stopped the day before, I met a
18 private who -- who spoke English. His name is in the testimony as well.
19 And he translated everything for me, and he typed the complaints I had,
20 and he even typed them in Serbo-Croatian and in English. So I had a
21 private who assist me at the time, a Bosnian Serb private.
22 Q. And do you remember his name as you sit here today?
23 A. I think it was Nebojsa.
24 Q. Nebojsa?
25 A. Did I pronounce that right?
1 Q. Very good.
2 A. Thank you.
3 Q. And he was the person, that interpreter, Nebojsa, who told you and
4 gave you the name of Colonel Beara when he was coming to the Nova Kasaba
5 school; correct?
6 A. Well, I've talked about Colonel Beara with Major Zoran, with
7 Zoran, and he told me he had to be in contact with Colonel Beara, and of
8 course I discussed about this with my -- with this private, and he helped
9 me those two days to translate things in Serbo-Croatian, and he said,
10 well, Colonel Beara's coming soon, and he stood near me when he came. So
11 he was the one who told me this is Colonel Beara.
12 Q. Directing your attention again, sir, if we may, to the statement
13 that you gave on the 24th of October, 1995. I believe you have it in
14 front of you. And I'm directing your attention to page 7, for the record,
15 and my learned colleague at the Prosecutors. ERN 0443213.
16 And we touched on that first full paragraph on that page 7
17 previously immediately before the break, so where it starts: "On Friday
18 14th July 1995"; do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, it proceeds to say: "I contacted Colonel Beara in the
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How did you make contact with him, sir? Did you call him?
25 A. He got out of his car. I went to him. I even saluted him. And I
1 told him who I was, and he told me who he was. I was -- he didn't say
2 much, but that's, I think, the answer to your question.
3 Q. So you didn't call him or contact him, right? You made contact
4 with him that morning. Correct?
5 A. I walked towards him. And I saluted him. And he saluted me back.
6 Q. Now, in this statement it never states that Mr. Beara ever
7 introduced himself to you. It goes on in the next four lines to
8 state: "The interpreter told me his name."
9 Do you see that?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Is it your recollection now that he introduced himself to you?
12 A. Well, I told my name to him and explained who I was. And he
13 didn't speak English very well at that time, but he mentioned his name.
14 And the interpreter, he translated everything in English to me, and he
15 told me that he was Colonel Beara.
16 So there was no conversation in English between Colonel Beara and
17 me at that time. There was always a interpreter who could speak English
18 and Serbo-Croatian as well.
19 Q. Just so I'm clear, that same interpreter Nebojsa; correct?
20 A. That's him, yes.
21 Q. Now here you give us a description of your recollection a few
22 months after you purportedly saw Mr. Beara on the 14th of July. And you
23 describe him as -- we talked about the badges already. And you
24 state: "He wore camouflage uniform. He was about 45, 50 years old."
25 Do you see that?
1 A. I see that.
2 Q. Do you know how old Mr. Beara was in 1995?
3 A. I don't know. I have never seen him.
4 Q. For being a surveillance or leading a platoon having an
5 observation post, what would be the margin of error of your guesstimate
6 that he was about 45 to 50 years old?
7 A. I think it had anything to do with me having an observation post
8 because I don't judge people how old they are. That's what I thought at
9 the time. He looked an older man between 45 and 50. That was old,
10 because I was 29. So I don't know.
11 Q. You go on to say that: "He was about 1.9 metres tall. His hair
12 was graying. I saw that he drove in a luxurious car. I believe it was an
13 Opel Omega."
14 Do you see that?
15 A. I see that.
16 Q. What colour was the Opel Omega that you saw?
17 A. I don't know. I don't recall that, sorry.
18 Q. Sir, when you say his hair was graying, was it black, blonde, or
19 what colour?
20 A. Well, the only thing I can recall right now is that it was grey
21 hair, not black, not blonde.
22 Q. But your statement says his hair was graying.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Am I misunderstanding that to mean that it was a different colour
25 but starting to develop shades of grey, or is it your testimony now that
1 it was grey?
2 A. At that time it was graying because -- and I can't recall whether
3 it was black turning into grey or another colour turning into grey. I
4 recall it at that time as being grey.
5 Q. Now, what type of hair did Mr. Beara have? Was it curly,
6 straight, receding, balding, full head of hair, long, short, wavy, or
8 A. At that time I didn't write it down in my report as well, so the
9 only thing I saw was that he was -- he had grey hair at that time and it
10 wasn't curling. So I can't recall anything else but that, as I stated in
12 Q. How about any distinguishing marks? Did he have any birth marks,
13 scars, tattoos, piercings of any kind?
14 A. I haven't seen them so -- but he was dressed in a uniform.
15 Q. I'm talking actually about facial distinguishing marks. That's
16 why I placed it. If you would have seen it you would have probably
17 written it down; correct?
18 A. Well --
19 Q. Or you don't know?
20 A. Do I have to answer the -- I haven't seen it. I haven't written
21 it down. If I saw a scar on a face or something like that and I
22 remembered it, I would have written it down.
23 Q. Right. How about eye-wear, sir? When you describe someone, would
24 you say someone, if they wear glasses, wouldn't you describe them by
25 saying they wear glasses; or if you don't mention glasses, can I presume
1 that Mr. Beara, on 14th of July, 1995, was not wearing glasses given your
2 immediately recent testimony? If you saw you would have written it down,
3 et cetera, if he had it?
4 A. Well, I haven't wrote that down. I don't recall whether he wears
5 glasses -- he did wear glasses at that time, but I didn't write it up. He
6 stepped out of a car. I don't know whether he had glasses or not.
7 Q. How about any facial features like eyes, the shape of his eyes or
8 the colour of his eyes? Do you recall that at all?
9 A. Well, I've got to explain the situation. We were there with 12
10 Dutch peacekeepers. There were -- there were terrible things going on.
11 We were concerned about the safety of us and of all the others in the
12 surroundings. The one who was in charge of -- was capable to get us back
13 was this Colonel Beara. That's what they told me. That's what this major
14 told me and the translator told me. And when I met him, I was only
15 focusing on getting the things done I wanted to be done. So I didn't
16 focus on the colour of his eyes.
17 There were a lot of other impressions at that day, of course, as
18 you can imagine. So instead of going to all these facial remarks, or his
19 eyes, did he have a scar or not, it's just a minor detail in my story. Of
20 course for you it's an important one. But I've described him as I
21 described him, as being a -- tall, 1.90 metres, a colonel of the Bosnian
22 Serb army, who came out of a car, a luxurious car, who I saluted, who
23 saluted back. We talked about it. This was the Colonel Beara. The
24 interpreter said. This is what I remember.
25 I can't add anything. I don't know the colour of his eyes.
1 Q. If you don't remember, just tell me that you don't remember. I'm
2 not questioning why you don't, and if you don't recall it, just -- you can
3 share that with us, if you don't mind.
4 A. The only thing I recall -- because I didn't write it down
5 immediately that I have met Colonel Beara and how he looked. Now, after
6 we got back into Holland, we had to describe the -- the military we have
8 Q. Okay. Well, at any time did you describe Mr. Beara's weight?
9 A. I didn't.
10 Q. Okay. Why not?
11 A. Because it was a minor -- a minor detail inside of the -- the
12 arrangement with Colonel Beara wasn't that -- wasn't that big in my story,
13 because it was just 15 [Realtime transcript read in error "50"] minutes,
14 and I've just told him that we've met him and that we got close -- we got
15 back and secure.
16 So I didn't -- the colour of his eyes or the -- the kilos he has
17 on his belly I didn't describe that. The only thing I described was the
18 grey hair, he's a tall guy, and he had -- well, he's a real colonel of the
19 BSA, as I can recall that.
20 Q. Do you have an independent recollection as you sit here now what
21 his weight was?
22 A. I can't tell you that. That's what the investigators of the
23 ICT -- of the Tribunal has asked me in 2000. Well, how does he look
24 like? Well, I couldn't remember him being that tall and his weight. On
25 the video he's a big -- he's a very big colonel. But at that time, I
1 didn't write anything down about that.
2 Q. And let me just, for the record -- I'm sorry to interrupt,
3 lieutenant colonel, but on page 19 it says -- I'm sorry, page 93, line 19,
4 it says 50 minutes I thought -- I can ask him, but I thought he said 15
5 even prior to that, but if we can --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you. I agree with you, Mr. Ostojic.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: It was 15.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, sir.
10 A. Between 10 and 20, yes
11 Q. Now, in fact, in your statements don't you state when you came
12 several months after July 1995 to the OTP that you spent about 10 minutes
13 with Mr. Beara?
14 A. Could be maximum.
15 Q. Could be maximum?
16 A. Well, what is the difference between 10 to 15 minutes?
17 Q. Well, I don't know that I'm prepared to exactly tell you that
18 without being unfortunately too sarcastic, but it may make a difference
19 given your prior testimony with another colonel that it took five
20 minutes. But I would rather not do that. But I just direct your
21 attention, sir, to your statement with ERN number 00920051.
22 And I'd be happy to give the Court the page, but I think he's
23 signed it right over the page but I think it's page 6.
24 A. And it says 10 minutes.
25 Q. Well, just take a look.
1 A. That's your word. I trust that.
2 Q. It says: "Altogether" -- in the second-to-the-last paragraph, I'm
3 sorry, of that page. It says: "Altogether I spent about 10 minutes with
4 him and he hardly spoke a word."
5 You know, I've been corrected. I apologise, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the 1999 statement.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: It is, Your Honour. Sorry for that. It's 2D00020,
8 just so the record's clear.
9 Q. Is that your recollection as you sit here now, sir, based on
10 your -- given your statement, that you spent 10 minutes with him?
11 A. Well, I declared here that it was about 10 minutes, but I've just
12 said that it was maximum 15 minutes. So it's about 10 minutes but no more
13 than 15. But not less than 10, of course.
14 Q. You just testified earlier I'm trying to find it on the screen
15 here that the Prosecutor or the investigators were questioning you about
16 the size of Mr. Beara; do you remember that?
17 A. Is this point clear, the other point because --
18 Q. About the minutes? Yes, it's clear.
19 A. It's 10 minutes and then I just --
20 Q. It's clear, yes.
21 A. It's 10 to 15 minutes, yes?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's leave it there.
23 MR. OSTOJIC:
24 Q. Let's leave it there.
25 A. Let's leave it there. Thank you.
1 Now you're going to another subject, right?
2 Q. Similar subject.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. You've said that you met with the Prosecutor in 2000 and you were
5 discussing Mr. Beara's size; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And which Prosecutors did you meet with?
8 A. Well, I didn't say the Prosecutor. I said the investigator.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. Which investigators did you meet with?
10 A. They're the ones who showed me the video. I don't recall their
11 names but I'm sure it's written down.
12 Q. Did you tell them that you did not remember Mr. Beara being as
13 large as the person that's depicted on the video that was shown to you
15 A. Did -- is it in the testimony? Can I see it, please?
16 Q. Do you have an independent recollection of it?
17 A. Well, I've -- I've told them about his weight at the time but not
18 about his length.
19 Q. What did you tell him about his weight at that time? And we're
20 talking about 2000; correct?
21 A. I think it was 2000, but you've got to test me. Can I read it,
23 Q. It's 2000. I can't even find it myself. And if the Prosecutor
24 believes it's a different year -- I think it's 2000. Let me give you the
25 exact date. It's April 30th --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Just refer to the page, statement, and document and
2 page, and let the witness show it -- see it, please.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I will do that hopefully in a minute,
4 but I'd like to first ask if he has any independent recollection about
5 it. And if he says he doesn't --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: He has said, "Let me see it."
7 MR. OSTOJIC: I know.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: He has every right to put that question.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Fine. We'll show it to him. It's 2D00 --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically it means, "I don't remember --"
11 MR. OSTOJIC: 21.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: -- "if I see it, I can answer the question."
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Maybe I'm not following because I'm on my feet, Your
14 Honour, but it's 2D00021.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: If you are more comfortable sitting down, you may do
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour, again, but I prefer to
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure you do.
20 MR. OSTOJIC:
21 Q. This is a statement we're discussing with a date of 30th of April
22 2000; correct?
23 A. Are you addressing me?
24 Q. I am, sir.
25 A. I'm sorry.
1 Q. I apologise for that.
2 A. This is the first page of -- I can't see any date, I'm sorry.
3 Q. I think in the centre where the arrow is being pointed, "Date of
4 Interview" --
5 A. Yes, April 2000.
6 Q. Can we turn to the next page, please. Do you see that?
7 A. I see that.
8 Q. Okay. Now, in that statement, sir, if you could read it - to
9 yourself, of course - and then let me know or direct me to the paragraph
10 where you discussed Mr. Beara's weight.
11 A. I've read that, yes. What's your question?
12 Q. It's in the third paragraph where you describe his weight;
14 A. I say when I say I'm certain of my recollection of Beara on the
15 video, I base my conclusion on his height, size, his grey hair, and the
16 way he walks. So there's no weight on there.
17 Q. Well, let me just finish reading it. I think in the sentence
18 underneath that it says "I did not describe his belly in my statement";
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Now, share with us how long this meeting was with the
22 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor on 30th of April, 2000.
23 A. It was a very short visit, on a Sunday. That's what I recall.
24 Q. What did you tell them about Mr. Beara's weight?
25 A. I didn't tell -- I just told them, as was written down here, that
1 in my statement, I didn't describe his belly he has on the video. I only
2 described him as a tall, grey-haired person. I've seen him walking,
3 talking to me, but not a lot of sentences, as I stated first. So I can
4 only base my conclusion on the length, the 1.90 metres, I thought he was,
5 the sight, the shoulder, and the way he walks. That's it. Not on his
7 Q. And you also add something about his eye-wear; right? You say: "I
8 would like to say he did not wear sunglasses when I met him in July 1995;
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Do you recall, as you sit here, what the approximate weight of
12 Mr. Beara was in 1995?
13 A. I can't do that. If I could and I would have remembered it in
14 1995. I would write it down.
15 Q. Thank you. Excuse me. At any time, sir, prior to today, did you
16 ever describe Mr. Beara as big or giant-like in any of the witness
17 statements that you've offered to the Prosecutor or in the testimony that
18 you gave in the Krstic trial?
19 A. I always described him as a big colonel, from 1 metres and 90
21 Q. Is that to you -- is that, for you, the description, being tall or
22 big or both?
23 A. Well, when you're 1 metre 90, like you, you're a big guy as well,
24 but you're not long and tiny. He's a big -- he's a big guy that -- he
25 wears costume 56. Do I describe this perfectly for you, sir?
1 Q. You have. Sir, do you remember giving to the Office of the
2 Prosecutor UN Peacekeeper interview questionnaire that you filled out? I
3 know it's an awkward question.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: May I restate it, please, Your Honour.
5 Q. Do you remember filling out a questionnaire for the Office of the
6 Prosecutor which is entitled "UN Peacekeeper Interview Questionnaire"?
7 A. Can I see it?
8 Q. You may.
9 A. Thank you.
10 Q. 2D00022.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: But if I can just have a little direction from the
12 Court if I may.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You can ask him what recollection of statements he's
14 made to the Office of the Prosecutor, to start with. And, again, if he
15 doesn't remember with any precision, you will then have to assist him.
16 THE WITNESS: I remember this.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You will then have to assist him. But he now says
18 that he remembers it. So, for the time being, leave it at that and you
19 proceed with your next question.
20 MR. OSTOJIC:
21 Q. Can you describe the first page that we're looking at on the
22 e-court system, which has right underneath -- the words "Confidential" on
23 the top centre, "International Criminal Tribunal for the former
24 Yugoslavia," and then underneath that, bold and underscored, "UN
25 Peacekeeper Interview Questionnaire"? And then it has your name on it,
1 obviously. Is that correct?
2 A. It's my handwriting.
3 Q. It's your handwriting as well. Did every former peacekeeper have
4 to fill out an interview questionnaire with the Office of the Prosecutor?
5 A. No, of course not.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you in a position to answer that question?
7 THE WITNESS: I'm sure a lot of UN peacekeepers didn't fill in a
8 form, yes, because, as you know, there were a lot of UN peacekeepers where
9 I worked at the time in Zagreb, so it's a rather simple question.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, in this questionnaire if you -- I'll direct your attention to
13 paragraph or page 4, just because we're short a little bit on time.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm trying to get through it, Your Honour, and thank
15 you for your patience.
16 Q. There you were asked if you personally witnessed certain events.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And the only event that you personally witnessed you check
20 off or you leave "yes" as the answer and you scratch off the word "no";
21 correct? And that would be the first one; correct?
22 A. Yes. And I said only the results of it.
23 Q. Okay. So you never personally saw any inhumane or cruel
24 treatment; you only saw the results of it, the end result; correct?
25 A. I saw the result of the inhumane and cruel treatment but ...
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. But when you capture or you're hostile to Muslim men and you take
3 them into a house, that's, of course, inhumane. So when I should fill in
4 the form right now, I would certainly do it different than I did in 1995.
5 Q. And what's the date of this questionnaire that you filled out for
6 the Office of the Prosecutor?
7 A. I don't know. You know that; I'm sure about that.
8 Q. I wish I did, but I don't. I didn't fill it out and there's no
9 date on it.
10 A. There's no date on it?
11 MR. OSTOJIC: As far as I can tell, there is no date on it, Your
13 Q. Can you help me remember?
14 A. It is in 1995.
15 Q. Okay. Do you know whether it was before or after your
16 October 24th, 1995 statement that we've previously discussed?
17 A. I don't recall that. But it could be that it was filled in right
18 after the arrival at Zagreb. But I'm not sure about that.
19 Q. And then you go on to say, sir, that you -- "Did you personally
20 witness summary executions?" And the answer would be no; correct? I'm
21 just reading through the questionnaire on page 4.
22 A. Yes, yes, yes.
23 Q. And: "Did you personally witness rape?" The answer would be no;
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. "Did you personally witness torture?" The answer would be no;
3 A. Well, torture in the way that --
4 Q. Well --
5 A. I wrote down no. That's -- I know the answer. But when you look
6 at it right now instead of just coming out of the war zone, it has a
7 different value for me. But at that time I said no.
8 Q. And that's all I'm asking --
9 A. I know.
10 Q. If you'd like to at any time amend the answer -- well, let me ask
11 you this: Did at any time the Office of the Prosecutor offer you the
12 opportunity to amend, modify or change any of your witness statements?
13 A. No. I was interviewed a few times about the same events in 1995.
14 But I've seen this -- I haven't seen this in a long time, so I don't know
15 whether it's in the file. It must be in the file, but I don't have a copy
16 at home.
17 Q. But did they ever give you an opportunity to change or modify any
18 of your answers to any of the statements that you gave, including this
20 A. Well, of course I have explained about the things happening, what
21 happened in 1995 and when I look at it, let's give an example, you see
22 that I use the word "POW." That stands for prisoner of war, and at that
23 time I thought those Muslim men were -- has been approached as prisoners
24 of war but of course they were just men who were -- who were captured and
25 detained. So there is no war -- if you look at it right now, I've used
1 words that I wouldn't use right now.
2 Q. And thank you for that. I just wanted to know if they gave you an
3 opportunity and I think I got your answer.
4 Did you personally, sir -- back to your page 4. "Did you
5 personally witness wanton destruction or theft of private property?"
6 No; correct?
7 A. It says no, but -- okay.
8 Q. Okay. Next: "Did you personally witness any other gross
9 violations of human rights?"
10 No; correct?
11 A. It says no, yes.
12 Q. Now let me just ask you this: What happened to the refugees at
13 Potocari? Did you see any incidents of ill-treatment against them?
14 A. I saw men being separated from their families, captured in the
15 house and took -- took together in a bus, but I didn't see any execution
16 or rape or things like that.
17 Q. So is it fair to say that it's no ill-treatment other than what
18 you've just described; correct?
19 A. I've described the separation of the men from the women, the
20 deportation of them. Of course the entire deportation is ill-treatment?
21 Q. Well, let me show you 2D00023. And on the first page I think it
22 states "debriefing form," but if you could help me there and just identify
23 it for us so that we're certain that we know where we're looking at.
24 Do you see that, sir?
25 A. I do see that, yes.
1 Q. Tell me what it is
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Okay. Do you remember filling out a questionnaire in what's known
4 as a debriefing form with the Dutch government?
5 A. I'm sure about that, yes. I wasn't filling in forms; I was
7 Q. You were interviewed and they were filling it in; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now do you see paragraph 4 of that first page? Do you have that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Actually, we do have the Dutch form, the original with us, so with
12 the Court's permission if the usher can place that on the ELMO, maybe it
13 will be a little more helpful. I think it just was attached to our
14 2D00023 as one document. Yes, there it is.
15 Do you see that, sir?
16 A. Well, this is handwritten, yes.
17 Q. Correct.
18 A. So it might be in the same time at -- is it dated?
19 Q. You know what? I didn't find a date, but I'll ask you that. Do
20 you know what date you gave this interview or --
21 A. Well, it must be 1995 in Zagreb.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please break between question
23 and answer.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Which, Lieutenant Colonel, remember please allow a
25 pause between question and answer, because I fully agree with the
1 interpreters. It's going too fast.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Sir, directing your attention of question number 4 of this
4 debriefing form; do you see it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now I have the English translation before us, and perhaps, again
7 with the Court's permission we could maybe put that English one next it,
8 if possible, so that we could follow along.
9 And the question, although in English, and underneath it does say,
10 I believe in Dutch. It states: "What happened to the refugees at
11 Potocari? Did you see any incidents of ill-treatment against them?
12 Please give examples."
13 And your answer, sir, is what?
14 A. Well, as you can see, I filled in at 1995 in Zagreb that I didn't
15 see ill-treatment at that time, that we have seen prisoners of war, but I
16 have meant the men inside the building nearby the school.
17 Q. Directing your attention to the next page, question number 6,
18 please. And I believe the question asked:"Did you observe any executions
19 of refugees, BiH soldiers by the BSA? Please describe."
20 And you answer to question number 6, sir, is?
21 A. None.
22 Q. Now, below that on that second page is it your handwriting?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. This is something that you added; correct?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Okay. Now we have the English translation and I'll read it to you
2 and you tell me if it's correct, because I don't read or speak Dutch
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Or if you could see it, it's right there. You may take a look at
6 it and tell me if it's a true and accurate translation of what you wrote
7 with your own hand during this debriefing in 1995?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. It is. Now, sir, with respect to paragraph -- with respect to the
10 second item in your handwritten record, it states: "Complaint to Major
11 Zoran regarding our safety. See report head of S 2/3."
12 Can you tell me what that code is?
13 A. Well, that's a military code of head of operations, who was in
14 their headquarters of DutchBat.
15 Q. And where would I get that report?
16 A. Well, that's the same report as I gave to Colonel Beara, so you
17 could ask him or Major Zoran, but the report, the copy of the report that
18 I gave to -- to my own headquarters wasn't found.
19 Q. And below that you state: "Convoys escorted as ordered."
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Who are you referring to there? Who is doing the
23 escorting? Who's doing the ordering?
24 A. Well, I'll write -- I'll read it in Dutch. Just a minute.
25 Thank you. Well, concerning our safety, it said in number 2, I
1 complained with this Major Zoran. I use his first name all the time. "I
2 have escorted convoys." That's what it says. "And the BSA couldn't
3 guarantee their safety." So the question is the convoys were the
4 deportation of the Muslim from the enclave towards Kladanj and the escort
5 was by us.
6 Q. As ordered by whom?
7 A. Oh, by DutchBat.
8 Q. Now, the third paragraph there, it says: "BiH confirm that they
9 had killed many BSA soldiers and stolen weapons."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. I see that.
12 Q. Okay. Who did you obtain that information from?
13 A. Well, this was information I got from being at Bravo 1 at the time
14 the Muslim -- the Muslim -- there came Muslim mans with weapons nearby --
15 nearby us, and I of course asked them how do you get -- how is it possible
16 for you to have weapons like that? And they tell me that at night they
17 went outside the enclave, killed BSA soldiers, took their weapons, and
18 went back into the enclave.
19 Q. Well, how many weapons did they steal?
20 A. I don't know that.
21 Q. Okay. How many BSA soldiers did the BiH confirm that they killed?
22 A. There was no numbers. It was just -- I asked the people how do
23 you get these -- these weapons and that's what they told me. That's why I
24 wrote it down in 1995.
25 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that the largest -- or the form of
1 the largest threat are the fanatical BiH soldiers?
2 A. I can't confirm that.
3 Q. Were they at that time?
4 A. I haven't seen any -- any of those types of soldiers or Muslim men
5 inside the enclave at the time. I spoke to a few of them with weapons. I
6 asked them, "How is it possible for you to have these kind of weapons?"
7 And they told me that they went outside the enclave. And that's the only
8 thing -- the only thing I can say is what they told me.
9 Q. And I know it's an offensive word to call anyone a fanatical, but
10 those aren't my words, sir.
11 If we could flip to the next page, please.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'm directing your attention to paragraph 7 of that page but first
14 if you don't mind just identifying that document for me?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. It states on top: "From First Lieutenant Egbers to head of S
17 2/34, Potocari, 15 July 1995."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Not yet, but --
20 Q. Sorry. We'll get it. You may scroll down, I think we might be
21 able to -- or scroll up then.
22 A. Scroll up, yes.
23 Q. Sorry.
24 A. I see that.
25 Q. What is it?
1 A. Well, when I get back to the enclave after being at Nova Kasaba, I
2 wrote down the things that happened to us, and this is a translation of
3 the report.
4 Q. How would you say "fanatic" in Dutch --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. And please make a pause
6 between question and answer.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Again -- we're drawing to the end in any case, but
8 please make a pause. I've been reminded to remind you that you need to
9 make a pause between question and answer.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: I will, Your Honour.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, as I told you, I spoke with Major Zoran, that
12 is on the number 6, and he -- he told me things and he told me everything
13 that is on number 6.
14 MR. OSTOJIC:
15 Q. I'm --
16 A. And on number 7 and on number 8. So these are -- this is the
17 story Major -- the major told me that was going on. That's why he
18 couldn't guarantee our safety.
19 So he said starting at 6 and finishing at 8.
20 Q. Okay. Let me just quickly show the witness the Dutch translation
21 or the Dutch original, I think it was, of his letter. And I'm not sure if
22 it's attached, I think it is, and if we can just do it. Oh, there it is.
23 Paragraph 7; do you see that, sir?
24 A. I see that.
25 Q. Anywhere in this statement does it inform us or do you state that
1 this is -- these are the words of Major Zoran?
2 A. Well, it doesn't say that, but I've started on chapter number 6,
3 and I've -- this was his statement that fanatic BiH warriors formed the
4 largest threat, and number 8 as well. That's why they kept us there.
5 That was their story.
6 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I do have about maybe 15 minutes to
8 wrap up, maximum 20. I know I've overstayed my welcome on questioning,
9 but I assure you that I won't be longer than 15, 20 minutes.
10 And one other point. We were given a document today, as the Court
11 knows, the Dutch translated document of a statement, and within that
12 document there were three exhibits that I think the witness signed. I
13 recognise the signature only by virtue of the other statements. And we've
14 never seen those documents. I've confirmed with my colleagues of the
15 Defence. We've never seen these three pictures, or sketches, if you will,
16 and we'd like to have a discussion about that tomorrow with the Court, if
17 at all possible.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think first you should have a discussion amongst
20 MR. OSTOJIC: We -- okay. Thank you.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And then we'll deal with it, if necessary, if at all
22 tomorrow morning.
23 We will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day
1 of October, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.