1 Wednesday, 25 October 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you kindly call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. If there are problems with
10 interpretation, please draw our attention. The Defence teams are all here
11 except for Mr. Bourgon, who has informed the Trial Chamber. Prosecution
12 is Mr. Thayer and Mr. McCloskey and I take it that you have got some
13 preliminary issues to raise, Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good afternoon.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, Your Honours. We are ready to go
17 and we have the witnesses lined up for the week but if I could go into
18 private session for just one moment.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So, let's go into private session, please.
20 [Private session]
11 Page 2953 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Can you start again Mr. Haynes,
13 MR. HAYNES: Certainly. At the conclusion of the evidence of
14 Peter Boering, the Defence for Pandurevic sought to enter into evidence
15 seven documents. They were documents from the Bosnian army command and
16 they were numbered 7D26, 28, 30, 34, 36, 41 and 44. They are currently
17 marked for identification only but they have now been translated into
18 English and are now entered into e-court in their English form and before
19 I forget, I would ask that they be entered into evidence now, please.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there any objection on the part of the
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So these six -- six, did you say six or
25 MR. HAYNES: Seven Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: 7D26, 28, 30, 36 --
2 MR. HAYNES: 34 is missing.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. 34 is missing. So let's I'll go through
4 them again. The following documents tendered by the Defence for accused
5 Pandurevic and which have until now been marked for identification only
6 because they had not yet been translated into English at the time they
7 were tendered, namely 7D26, 7D28, 7D30, 7D34, 7D36, 7D41, and 7D44 are now
8 being admitted into evidence since they have been duly translated.
9 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Now, any further preliminary issues?
11 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to give you an idea what I had in mind for
13 this witness is, as he comes in (redacted)
14 (redacted)then I
15 will, as you had requested, read a summary of his prior testimony. I had
16 just one question to fill in one small blank that didn't come out in the
17 testimony, and then one new exhibit which is based on the prior exhibit
18 where he marked -- he spoke about, about five different areas on an image.
19 Three of the areas got clearly marked in the Court and make sense when you
20 read the transcript. The first two areas he talked about, the Prosecutor
21 didn't have him mark, and so I now had him mark in my office those two
22 areas so we have a new exhibit that he'll just talk briefly about so that
23 the old record is complete and then we -- that should be it.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. Any further preliminaries from
25 the Defence teams? I see none. There are two issues or three, maybe,
1 that we'd like to raise with you.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: There are some issues that we would like to raise
4 with you. Thank you for being patient.
5 Last week, on the 20th to be precise, the Prosecution filed a
6 motion seeking protective measures in relation to one further Prosecution
7 witness, who has been rescheduled for this month. This witness basically,
8 if we stick to our time schedule, is due to testify on the 31st of this
9 month. That is a few days before the time limit you would usually have to
10 file a response expires, I mean the time limit for the filing of responses
11 expires on the 3rd of November. Unless you are prepared to state your
12 position now orally, which would enable us then to proceed with an oral
13 decision, we are fixing a -- we are shortening the deadline for the filing
14 of responses until noon of this coming Friday, noon of this coming Friday
15 which would enable us to decide on the protective measures sought by the
16 Prosecution in relation to this witness.
17 We'll come back to you in one of the breaks in case you wish to
18 state that you prefer to deal with it here and now orally, and not file a
19 response. That's number 1.
20 The other issue we'd like to raise is -- relates to the filing of
21 the 23rd of October, that's two days ago, by the Prosecution in relation
22 to the next witness, not the one we are starting now but the one
23 following, and it's a motion, as you would have already noticed, just
24 filed pursuant to the new Rule 92 ter. Prosecution is seeking to admit
25 into evidence, pursuant to this new sub-rule, the transcript taken in the
1 Krstic case of the videotaped testimony of the next witness in a Rule 61
2 hearing in the Karadzic and the Mladic cases. Due to the imminence of the
3 expected commencement of the testimony of this particular witness, I
4 would, on behalf of the Trial Chamber, like to know whether you have
5 already taken a position on this motion because obviously it needs to be
6 decided before the witness shows up. So again, in order not to prolong or
7 take much time now, we will come back to you on this in the course of the
8 first break.
9 The third thing we wanted to communicate to you is our decision
10 pursuant to what has been raised by Mr. McCloskey earlier on today in the
11 beginning of the session, of this sitting, namely whether it's the case of
12 dealing -- let's go into private session for a while, please.
13 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in open session.
5 There being no further preliminary business to transact, Madam
6 Usher, could you kindly escort the witness in?
7 Isn't he here a bit too early, Mr. McCloskey?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Hope springs eternal. But yes, that is who you
9 thought it was, but we'll see him soon.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Groenewegen.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. This is the case
14 against Popovic and others, and you are one of the witnesses summoned by
15 the Prosecution. Before you start giving evidence, our rules require that
16 you enter a solemn declaration which I suppose you are already familiar
17 with because you've testified before this Tribunal already. This is
18 tantamount to an oath that you would take in many jurisdictions to the
19 effect that in the course of your testimony, you undertake to speak the
20 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Madam Usher, who is
21 standing next to is handing to you now the text of this solemn
22 undertaking. Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn
23 undertaking with us.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I understand that you will be testifying in
2 Dutch, is that correct?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I will explain to you very briefly what's going
5 to happen, again very briefly because you're familiar with the procedure.
6 Mr. McCloskey, who is lead counsel for the Prosecution in this case will
7 go first. You're a Prosecution witness. Therefore, his will be an
8 examination-in-chief. Basically it's going to be a very short procedure.
9 I don't even know whether there will be any questions or not by
10 Mr. McCloskey. He will, before you start, explain, give a summary of your
11 previous testimony before this Tribunal and then you will -- I will
12 immediately pass you on to the Defence teams, seven of them in this trial,
13 who will in turn cross-examine you. The previous testimony that you have
14 given in this Tribunal has been admitted as evidence according to our
15 Rules but Mr. McCloskey himself now will explain things to you and also
16 summarise the substance of your previous testimony.
17 WITNESS: PAUL GROENEWEGEN
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
22 Q. First, can you just tell us your full name?
23 A. Paul Groenewegen.
24 Q. And can you spell your last name for us?
25 A. G-R-O-E-N-E-W-E-G-E-N.
1 Q. All right. And then if we could go into private session just for
2 a second?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while,
5 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back into open session. Mr. Lazarevic?
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's not maybe that significant but just to have a
6 clear record I believe that the witness was testifying in Blagojevic case,
7 not in Krstic.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: You're absolutely right. I'm sorry. Okay.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken. Thank you for pointing that out, and
10 Mr. McCloskey obviously agrees with you.
11 Mr. Meek?
12 MR. MEEK: Mr. McCloskey might agree but does the witness agree or
13 does he remember which case he testified in? Maybe Mr. McCloskey can
14 clear that up?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, You can maybe clarify this with the witness
16 Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. The subject we were talking for -- is back when you last testified
19 in July 2003 in the Srebrenica trial; is that right?
20 A. Yes, that's true.
21 Q. Okay. Well, I am now going to read what is my summary of the
22 testimony from that last trial and we've gone over that before in my
23 office, haven't we?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. And if anything I say is not true, please stop me and interrupt
1 me. It's meant to be a summary and -- but still if you recognise anything
2 that's not correct, let us know.
3 Okay. Mr. Groenewegen enlisted in the Dutch army in January 1994
4 when he was 17 years old. He was sent to Bosnia with the Dutch army and
5 served there from January through July 1995. At the time he was a private
6 assigned to Charlie Company based in Potocari with assignments to OP
7 rotations at OP Mike, and OP November. On 11 July, he was on duty in
8 Potocari when Muslim refugees came into Potocari and he described them as
9 exhausted and full of fear. That day, the base filled up with Muslim
10 refugees and then, after that, the refugees sought shelter in a nearby
11 factories. On 12 July, the Bosnian Serb army entered Potocari. That day,
12 he was assigned to the area near the Muslim population to assist with the
13 Muslim population. He stayed in the area of the Muslim population most of
14 the day. He said he was in a line of Dutch soldiers near the Muslim
15 population. He was shown a video of Potocari and the Dutch soldiers and
16 acknowledged that this was the area he was working in. That was Exhibit
17 P47 from the previous trial. That same day, buses arrived, and I am
18 quoting Mr. Groenewegen: "The first people to go there were those who
19 wanted to get into the buses on their own account. The people who didn't
20 want to get in, kind of withdrew into the background and were forced
21 afterwards to get into the buses."
22 That can be found on page 1025, lines 13 to 16 of the prior
24 To continue the summary: For the Muslims who were unwilling to
25 get on the buses, initially there was only shouting and people were being
1 called names and if they still didn't want to get in, then violence was
2 used by the Serb soldiers. Men were selected from the crowd of Muslims
3 and gathered in an empty house by Serbian soldiers. When the house was
4 full, the men were taken to buses and driven away. The transportation of
5 the Muslim population continued until the evening and then it stopped. On
6 13 July, Mr. Groenewegen had the same duties he had the day before, which
7 included helping that everything ran smoothly. He was part of a line of
8 Dutch soldiers standing shoulder to shoulder by the crowd of Muslims. The
9 line of Dutch soldiers was extended into the field beyond the main road to
10 help keep watch over the area and make sure that individual Muslims did
11 not wander off too far. Mr. Groenewegen was in that line farthest from
12 the road. At one point that day, his attention was drawn to shouting and
13 he saw a man from the crowd dressed in civilian clothes on the road, who
14 had been taken by some Serbian soldiers. About ten or 15 minutes after
15 seeing this Mr. Groenewegen's attention was drawn again to this same man.
16 This time he saw the man a short distance away placed up against the wall
17 of a nearby house by Serbian soldiers. Mr. Groenewegen saw a Serb soldier
18 shoot the man from a distance of about three metres. The man collapsed
19 after being shot.
20 Mr. Groenewegen noticed other Serb soldiers look to the area of
21 the shooting after the shot was fired but they just continue their
22 activities. Mr. Groenewegen stated he was about 30 metres from where the
23 man was shot. Mr. Groenewegen stated that in his statement to the OTP on
24 29 September 1995, he had shifted the dates one day but was certain about
25 the dates he mentioned in his testimony at that last trial. So when he
1 mentioned in his previous statement 11 July, that should have been 12
2 July. In that statement.
3 Mr. Groenewegen acknowledged that he had not mentioned in any
4 previous statements that the Muslim population who refused to get on the
5 buses were first insulted and then forced on to the buses. And he
6 acknowledged that this testimony during that trial was the first time he
7 had reported this, being the date of his testimony 10 July 2003.
8 Mr. Groenewegen stated that the BiH army was in the enclave and
9 that -- what he meant by that was men with weapons ready to fight.
10 Mr. Groenewegen marked an aerial image which was Exhibit P50 from the
11 former trial. The position of the civilian when he first noticed him was
12 marked with an A on that aerial image. He made an X on the aerial image
13 where he, Groenewegen, was standing when he saw the civilian, and he drew
14 a line to the X which meant to depict where he had originally been and
15 where he had gone to point X.
16 Mr. Groenewegen had marked with a solid dot the area he saw the
17 civilian shot, where the civilian was shot.
18 And Mr. Groenewegen, can you confirm what I said to be an accurate
19 summary of your testimony?
20 A. I did not notice any errors.
21 Q. That's a poorly stated question. Was that -- was what I said
22 accurate to the best of your knowledge?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Now, I just want to ask one question which didn't actually come
25 out in the testimony. When you first saw that man, the civilian man, in
1 the crowd with Serb soldiers around him, how many Serb soldiers did you
2 see around him in the crowd?
3 A. Four.
4 Q. Okay. And when you saw the man shot, how many Serb soldiers were
5 standing around him then?
6 A. There were also four.
7 Q. All right. Now, do you remember in my office I showed you an
8 aerial image from the prior trial?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. And then I brought out a new image and asked to you mark some
11 things on it?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Okay. I'm going to bring that -- up that image on the screen and
14 ask you to explain briefly what those markings were, and that's 65 ter
15 number 02266.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have a hard copy of it? I'm being told that
17 it's a big document that takes a long time to upload. Anyway, it's
18 uploading or downloading anyway. So we got it now.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Zero in a little bit on those markings. A little
20 more. [Microphone not activated].
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone, Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry. Yeah, if you could zero in on the red
23 markings and centre them a little bit higher? Okay. One more. Actually
24 that's pretty good.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Groenewegen, do you see the -- well, let's -- the new
1 markings you did in my office?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Okay. And could you -- well, let's pick one out and tell us what
4 it is. Describe which marking you're referring to. I see one that looks
5 like a pear and one that looks like a circle and then an A, X, and a dot.
6 So which ones are the new markings?
7 A. A is the spot where I saw the man taken out of the crowd.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. The X is the place where I walked to from where I witnessed the
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. And the closed point is where I -- the solid point is where I saw
13 the man shot.
14 Q. What is that line that is connected to the X?
15 A. That's the area where I was walking around that day.
16 Q. Okay. And what are the other markings on the map? The pear
17 marking in red, for example?
18 A. The red circle marked H is the house to which the men were taken.
19 Q. Okay. So when you say where the men were taken, what are you
20 referring to, just so it's clear?
21 A. The Muslim men in the population.
22 Q. Okay. And what about the pear-shaped mark, what is that?
23 A. That's the area where I was walking around that day.
24 Q. Okay. And did you make all these marks in my office on Friday?
25 A. I did that.
1 Q. Okay. And the -- did you look at your old exhibit and confirm
2 that the A and the X and the dot were what you thought they were from the
3 old exhibit?
4 A. Yes. They are at the same spot.
5 Q. Okay. All right.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
8 Who is going first? Mr. Zivanovic is lead counsel appearing for
9 accused Popovic in this case and he will be cross-examining you.
10 Mr. Zivanovic.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
12 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, can you please explain what your role was and
13 what was the role of other UN troops during the evacuation of civilians
14 from Potocari which lasted over two days?
15 A. We were asked to assist the population and to take the sick to the
16 appropriate spots.
17 Q. Together with the other troops, did you make a line separating the
18 Muslim civilians and refugees on the one side from the soldiers of the VRS
19 on the other side?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Was the object of that separation to prevent a contact between
22 these two groups, between the civilians on the one side and the VRS
23 soldiers on the other side?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. In your testimony in the Blagojevic case, you said, amongst other
1 things, that one of the reasons for doing that was to prevent an
2 aggression on both sides. Do you remember that you said that in your
4 A. Yes, I do remember that.
5 Q. Could you please explain what you meant when you said that you
6 tried to prevent any aggression on any of the sides? What aggression did
7 you have in mind when you said that?
8 A. Would you please repeat the question?
9 Q. What aggression did you have in mind, and this is just a follow-up
10 on my previous question, what kind of aggression on any of the sides did
11 you try to prevent by separating the sides?
12 A. We saw that the soldiers were approaching the population
13 aggressively through physical violence and we tried to prevent that.
14 Q. Well, this applies to only one side. However, you mentioned that
15 you feared aggression on both sides. Can you then explain what kind of
16 aggression did you expect on the other side?
17 A. Not off the top of my head, no.
18 Q. During that testimony, you also mentioned for the first time that
19 you saw some people who had been forced to get on the buses. Do you
20 remember that? Do you remember that you said that?
21 A. Correct. I remember that.
22 Q. Do you now remember whether this applied to women and children
24 A. Women and children, yes.
25 Q. Did this apply to men as well?
1 A. They were separated elsewhere.
2 Q. Did this occur once the women and the children had been separated
3 from the men? In other words, was that the main reason why some of the
4 refugees, and I mean women, did not want to leave without the male members
5 of their families?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Could you please tell us whether you and other UN troops, i.e.,
8 your officers, did something in that situation, in a situation where a
9 certain number of refugees would not get on the buses without the male
10 members of their families? Was anything done and, if so, what was done?
11 A. When such situations occurred, we intervened by getting in between
12 them, but because of the confusion and the language barrier, we were not
13 able to be effective in that respect.
14 Q. Thank you. Before giving testimony in the Blagojevic case, you
15 provided another testimony, also at this Tribunal, and you have also
16 provided two written statements. Do you remember that? One of them was
17 provided to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal and another one was
18 given during the parliamentary investigation to the Dutch authorities?
19 Can you confirm that?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. In your statement, you stated that you were present --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a moment. I apologise to you, Mr. Zivanovic,
23 but I want to make sure of this. The transcript shows your question as
24 intending to suggest to the witness that apart from testifying in
25 Blagojevic, he has also testified in some other case which I don't think
1 is the case, is it? He gave statements but did not testify apart from in
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I -- I believe that
4 he testified in the Karadzic and Mladic case. This was not a trial. This
5 was the case of transferring the case to The Hague Tribunal, and this is
6 the testimony that I had in mind. I believe that this was in the form of
7 a testimony rather than a statement.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. All right. Then your question was
9 transcribed well. Thank you.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. You stated that you were present when the refugees left Potocari
12 on the 12th and the 13th of July, and I'm sure you remember that.
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. In your statement provided to the investigators of The Hague
15 Tribunal, you stated that on the 12th of July, you did not see any men
16 having been separated from the women and the children. Do you remember
17 that statement? Can you confirm that you stated that?
18 A. That does not sound credible.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
20 his statement, which is on the Prosecutor's list of exhibits, the
21 statement was provided on the 29th July 1995 -- 29th of September 1995, on
22 page 3.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, what is the 65 ter number of the statement?
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I don't have it. On
25 the list that we have, we cannot find this number. It has not been
1 provided to us, as far as I can see. I only know that it is on page 2.
2 This is the first one on page 2. You will find it on page 3. And the
3 paragraph in question is number 8, paragraph number 8. The paragraph
4 starts with the words, "[In English] [Previous translation continues] ...
5 and to be taken away." [Interpretation] And here you will find the
6 sentence, [Previous translation continues] ... "were not split up on that
8 Q. I believe that I have your statement -- no, I don't have your
9 statement in Dutch. It seems that your statement is only in English.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Can anyone help us? I would imagine that there
11 should be one in Dutch. In fact, Mr. McCloskey has it and I suggest that
12 we do what we did with Colonel Boering, put it on the ELMO so that the
13 witness can see what is recorded in his own language. Or make it easier,
14 I think he's the only one who is interested in seeing it in the Dutch
15 language, no one else. Maybe the interpreters who are translating from
16 Dutch. Yeah, okay. So then put it on the ELMO, please. You have to --
17 it doesn't show the paragraph, usher. You have to put it up.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It says paragraph 1 in Dutch.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But he was being shown the previous page.
20 [Dutch spoken]. Yes.
21 You could perhaps repeat your question, Mr. Zivanovic, and the
22 witness can proceed with answering it.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].
24 Q. My question is this: Can you see this passage in Dutch and can
25 you see that it reads that on that day, the refugees were not split up,
1 and the day in question is the 12th of July 1995?
2 A. That's correct. I've seen that.
3 Q. At that moment, your memory of the events was very fresh and I
4 would assume that what you stated on that day was correct.
5 A. I thought so too, but the dates have shifted by one day.
6 Q. It is true that the dates have been shifted in this statement.
7 However, we are still talking about day 1 of the evacuation. Would you
8 agree with that?
9 A. I agree with that.
10 Q. Can you explain the reason why you changed this statement of yours
11 later, saying that the separations took place that day as well, the
12 separations of men?
13 A. At each statement I tried to describe the situation as close as
14 possible to the truth. If anything I stated is not entirely accurate I
15 would be happy to correct that. As far as not separating the men, I've
16 revised that.
17 Q. In other words, are you trying to tell us that what you said then
18 was not true, what you said in your statement was not true?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I would prefer you to choose whether to use the
20 word "true" or "correct" or "not correct" because there is a fundamental
21 difference between something which is not true and something which is not
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very
24 much. I will rephrase the question.
25 Q. Did you give a correct statement on the 29th of September 1995,
1 that the refugees on the first day of the evacuation were not separated?
2 A. That would not have been accurate.
3 Q. In the statement you provided to the Dutch authorities, you said
4 that on the 12th and 13th of July, a total of 400 men were separated from
5 the women. Do you stand by that statement?
6 A. That has been my estimation and I stand by the estimation. I
7 cannot give any accurate figures.
8 Q. Thank you. You said that the men who were separated were taken to
9 a house, and you explained that in your previous statements, you explained
10 that you saw them being taken there but you could not see if they were
11 coming out of the house and where. Do you recall these words of yours?
12 You told this to The Hague investigators and to the Dutch authorities.
13 A. That is correct. I have seen no buses with men leave.
14 Q. Thank you. In your statement to the Dutch authorities, you also
15 said that you were present when a truck with bread arrived and the bread
16 was distributed to the refugees. Do you recall that?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. You also said that this was filmed by Serbian television, a TV
19 crew that came together with the Serbian soldiers. Do you recall that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. And you also said that when the crew stopped filming this
22 distribution of bread, that they continued to distribute the bread to the
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you also said that from the 13th of
1 July, after the evacuation of the refugees, you remained in Potocari until
2 the 20th of July, cleaning up what was left behind. Do you recall that?
3 A. That's correct. I do remember that.
4 Q. Can you remember if a lot of things were left behind after the
5 refugees left, whether there were many things left behind by the refugees
6 close to the, or around, the UN base in Potocari?
7 A. As far as I can remember, I recall people had very few belongings
8 with them, and that therefore very few goods were left behind in the
10 Q. Did you personally clear these things or was this something that
11 other people did?
12 A. I didn't busy myself with that.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Mr. Zivanovic.
17 Who is next? Which Defence team is going next? Mr. Meek?
18 MR. MEEK: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek is appearing for Colonel Beara.
20 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I apologise. It's six minutes until we
21 normally take our break. I would ask if we could possibly break early.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Meek. Judge Kwon is right. We break
23 at quarter to 4.00. So you have ample time.
24 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I have no questions for
25 this witness.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Meek. Who is next? Madam Nikolic
2 is appearing for Mr. Nikolic in this case. Go ahead.
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Groenewegen. I'm going to put a few questions
6 to you about these events you were a witness to on the 12th and the 13th
7 of July 1995. In your earlier testimony, you spoke about the arrival of
8 the soldiers at Potocari and what was going on there on the 12th and the
9 13th. We will go back particularly to the 12th of July. You noticed
10 different kinds of uniforms. Can you describe the uniforms for us,
12 A. There were camouflage suits in purple tints [as interpreted], in
13 green colour and also some people were dressed in partial camouflage suits
14 with black pants.
15 Q. There were also units with dogs; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. And you assumed that they belonged to the Bosnian Serb army; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what I assumed.
20 Q. You also noticed camouflage uniforms with different markings, with
21 different insignia, emblems?
22 A. They certainly must have been around but I cannot recall them in
23 my mind, these insignia that is, right now.
24 Q. Did you know to which units those soldiers belonged?
25 A. No, I didn't.
1 Q. You witnessed a killing which you described.
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. The people who surrounded the person who was executed were wearing
4 camouflage uniforms?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. These uniforms didn't have unit insignia?
7 A. No. I didn't see that.
8 Q. These soldiers could have belonged to any military or paramilitary
9 unit that happened to be in Potocari at that time?
10 A. Given the way they behaved, interacted with the other soldiers,
11 that would be very improbable.
12 Q. But you don't know which units the soldiers belonged to?
13 A. The camouflage suits were identical to those used by the vast
14 majority of the soldiers present at the venue, at the site.
15 Q. But you don't know which units those soldiers belonged to?
16 A. That is correct. I don't know.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Nikolic.
21 Who is next. Mr. Stojanovic? Mr. Stojanovic, together with
22 Mr. Lazarevic, are appearing for accused Borovcanin here.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Groenewegen. I'm going to go in order,
1 attempting to proceed in the same order that you were responding to
2 questions by Mr. McCloskey. On the 11th of July 1995, you were at
3 observation post Mike; is that correct?
4 A. On the 11th of July, I was at the compound in Potocari.
5 Q. When did you come from the Michael observation post to the
6 Potocari compound?
7 A. I can't give the exact dates but it was a few days before the 11th
8 of July.
9 Q. After you left the Michael observation posts, were there any
10 members of the Dutch Battalion left at the Michael observation post?
11 A. Yes. A full unit of 12 soldiers remained.
12 Q. Could you please help us? How long did they stay or until when
13 did they stay at the Michael observation post?
14 A. I wasn't present there, and I do not know when they left this
15 observation post.
16 Q. Did you see them at the UN compound at any point on the 12th or
17 the 13th of July 1995?
18 A. Yes. I've seen them in the valley as well.
19 Q. What do you understand as the valley? Where is that located?
20 A. I mean the surroundings of the Potocari compound.
21 Q. Do you know that a number of the Dutch Battalion members from the
22 Michael observation post were with the army of Republika Srpska?
23 A. I haven't learned about that myself.
24 Q. In the night of the 11th to the 12th of July, so the evening
25 before the evacuation began, where were you?
1 A. We spent the night in the bunker of the Potocari compound.
2 Q. Can you please help us and tell us when, on the first day of the
3 evacuation, and I will say that that was on the 12th of July. In your
4 opinion, when did the evacuation actually begin?
5 A. The evacuation started from the moment the buses arrived. At what
6 point in time that happened, I can't say off the top of my head, but this
7 should be present in my written statement.
8 Q. Could you try to give us a time, whether it was in the morning or
9 in the afternoon of that day, please?
10 A. It must have been in the early morning.
11 Q. Incidentally, I would like to ask you what was the reason why you
12 came to the Potocari compound before the rest of the members of the Dutch
13 Battalion from the Michael observation post?
14 A. My departure to the compound was part of the normal rotation
16 Q. On the 12th, in the morning, when the evacuation began, who did
17 you receive your personal orders from for activities that you were
18 supposed to do?
19 A. We received orders from Mr. Schaik [as interpreted] . I do not
20 exactly remember his precise rank. It must have been Sergeant Major.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to clear it up, I'm sure the interpreter
23 didn't catch it but he said "van Schaik."
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I did hear him but Mr. Groenewegen, could you
25 confirm that, please? Who did you receive orders from?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sergeant Major van Schaik.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
4 Q. And what precisely was the order that you received that day from
5 Sergeant Major van Schaik? What did it state exactly?
6 A. I cannot remember that.
7 Q. Can you try to help us, then, and tell us what you yourself did on
8 that day, the 12th of July?
9 A. We were told that we should offer assistance to the population,
10 that we should survey the state of the wounded and the general population.
11 Q. I understand your answer. I understood it earlier when you gave
12 it. But actually what exactly did your work entail, this assistance or
13 help to the population, as you said?
14 A. I was a part of those who were in between the soldiers of the Serb
15 army and the population.
16 Q. And what were you are doing there, Mr. Groenewegen?
17 A. We looked at the situation. For as far as possible we dealt with
18 the skirmishes between the army and the population.
19 Q. And what was your role in these skirmishes? What was your
20 activity? What were you doing specifically?
21 A. I did not personally intervene. Colleagues around me were
22 involved in them. I was the line between the population and the army, and
23 I walked further south, and later that day I witnessed the execution.
24 Q. I understood that you said that the execution happened on the
25 second day of the evacuation. Am I correct? Now you are saying something
2 A. What day are we talking about? The 12th?
3 Q. You're right. We are talking about the 12th of July 1995.
4 A. Then I apologise. I did indeed confuse the execution with that
5 same day, but I witnessed it the day afterward.
6 Q. On the 12th, thus you were standing between the refugees and the
7 Bosnian Serb army, and you were assisting the refugees. Were you doing
8 that the whole day of the 12th of July, the first day of the evacuation?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. We weren't there. Could you please help us and tell us how you
11 saw it? How did the evacuation proceed?
12 A. Well, on the one hand, there were an awful lot of people that we
13 tried to help each and every one of them by giving them any information we
14 could, by providing them with water. We tried to assist women with
16 Q. Were you helping them as they were boarding the buses? Were you
17 trying to prevent this panic from breaking out that you talked about?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Can you tell us what number of people were going towards the
20 buses, and how?
21 A. All I can give you is a rough estimate. It was so disorganised
22 that day. I saw so many people. I estimate that there were thousands,
23 and it was not a smooth process.
24 Q. Does that mean that at one point, all the refugees, everybody,
25 wanted to go towards the buses?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Who was it who decided which groups of refugees should go to the
3 buses? Were these from the army of Republika Srpska or members of the
4 Dutch Battalion or did they decide this together?
5 A. I know one thing for certain: It was not decided by DutchBat
7 Q. Am I correct if I say that you, together with members of the army
8 of Republika Srpska, were forming human barrier which was separating the
9 refugees from the place where the buses were?
10 A. That's correct.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a
12 good point to stop for the break, because after, I will move on to other
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. We'll have a 25-minute
15 break starting from now. Thank you.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. There is one minor thing that we would
21 like to draw your attention to in relation to the testimony, to the
22 transcript, rather. Please go back to page 29, line 20. Mr. Stojanovic
23 asked the witness, were you helping them as they were boarding the buses?
24 And then a second question, the same breath, were you trying to prevent
25 this panic from breaking out that you talked about? And the answer is
1 that that's correct, but this is not clear. Maybe that's correct refers
2 to the last question, but we don't have the answer in the transcript to
3 the first question, which I did hear the witness give.
4 So Mr. Groenewegen, you were asked by Mr. Stojanovic, "Were you
5 helping them as they boarded -- they were boarding the buses?" What was
6 your answer to that? Or what is your answer to that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not help people board the
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 And when you -- you were asked were you trying to prevent this
11 panic from breaking out that you talked about, and what was your answer,
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did our best to prevent panic
14 among the people.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Please Mr. Stojanovic, he's back,
16 I give him back to you.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, we left it off at the wall that was between the
19 buses and the refugees. This was your answer. Do you remember that?
20 A. Absolutely.
21 Q. Bearing in mind your answer to the Honourable Chamber's question,
22 can you tell us how the refugees managed to go through that human wall and
23 get on the buses? Who was it who gave them the permission to go through
24 that wall?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's compound and will create a similar
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think if you can break it down, Mr. Stojanovic.
4 Mr. McCloskey is right.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. My question to you is this: Who was it who let the refugees go
7 through and get to the buses?
8 A. That was imposed upon us by the army.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Which army?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb army.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
12 Q. Does this mean that you, members of the DutchBat, were the ones
13 who were in a position to let the refugees, the civilians, go through and
14 get to the buses?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Did you also make a decision as to the fact which group of
17 refugees would make it to the buses?
18 A. I did not take any decisions about that.
19 Q. Did members of the DutchBat, not you personally, make decisions as
20 to how many refugees they should let through and allow to get to the
22 A. I don't know anything about that.
23 Q. Very well, then. Would you please tell us this: On the 12th of
24 July, where did you see the men being separated from the women and the
25 children? At what spot was that?
1 A. It happened to the side of the crowd.
2 Q. Does this mean that behind the human wall, or rather the selection
3 was being carried out between the human wall and the buses, in that area
5 A. No. Behind.
6 Q. Could you please be more precise? Behind what? Where was this
7 selection carried out?
8 A. I could tell you the most clearly, I've indicated it on the map by
9 the letter A, where I saw the men removed from the crowd. That was where,
10 as far as I could see, the men were being removed from the crowd.
11 Q. Let me try and put it this way: Would the refugees, the children,
12 the women, and the men, first go through the human cordon where you were
13 and were they separated only after that?
14 A. No. Before that.
15 Q. I wanted to ask you something else. Do you know a person called
16 van Duijn, who was also a member of the DutchBat?
17 A. Yes. I know him.
18 Q. Was he there on the 12th of July, on the first day of the
19 evacuation, together with you?
20 A. I don't remember seeing him that day.
21 Q. And now try and tell us this: There was a human wall, which
22 separated the refugees from the buses, and you are telling us that before
23 the refugee column went through that human wall, the men got separated
24 from the rest of the column? Is that correct? Is that a correct
25 understanding of your answer?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Thank you. The men who were separated, did they also go through
3 that human wall before they arrived at the house that you have mentioned,
4 where they would be accommodated?
5 A. No. They were escorted past it.
6 Q. Very well, then. Thank you. And let me put my last question
7 about the 12th of July. On that day, how long did you stay on the spot of
8 the evacuation? How late in the day was it when you left that area?
9 A. I did not leave the evacuation site. We spent the night outside
11 Q. Do you know, then, that during that night, between the 12th and
12 the 13th of July, some refugees were accommodated within the UN base?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. During that night between the 12th to the 13th of July, were there
15 any troops of the VRS in the area where you were, or did they leave that
17 A. They had left that area.
18 Q. Could you please assist us and tell us this: When did the
19 evacuation of the refugees who were accommodated in the UN base start?
20 A. I can't tell you anything about that because I remained outside
21 the base.
22 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, we heard several witnesses here who have told us
23 that during the night between the 12th and the 13th, there were suicides,
24 that a lady giving birth died, that a person hanged himself, that a person
25 committed suicide in the bathroom. Did you also hear about these stories,
1 rumours and comments about such events that allegedly took place during
2 that night?
3 A. I only heard them. I did not actually experience them myself.
4 Q. Very well, then. Let's move on to the second day of the
5 evacuation, the 13th of July 1995. Could you please tell us when the
6 evacuation started on that second day?
7 A. It must have been early in the morning, I believe from about 7.00
8 in the morning.
9 Q. We've heard a witness here who said that the evacuation preceded
10 the arrival of the VRS troops. Would you agree with that?
11 A. No. I would not have said that.
12 Q. What would you say? What happened?
13 A. I cannot accept or corroborate statements by other witnesses.
14 Q. In your experience, according to your memory, would you say that
15 the evacuation started before VRS members arrived?
16 A. No. As far as I remember, it only started once they were there.
17 Q. Which members of the DutchBat were there between the 12th and the
18 13th of July and in the morning of the 13th of July, or, rather, which was
19 the highest-ranking officer of the DutchBat that was there?
20 A. I couldn't tell you. I know who addressed me directly. As to
21 whether he was the highest-ranking officer at that point, I couldn't tell
22 you that.
23 Q. Could you give us the name of the officer who addressed you
25 A. That would have been Captain Koster.
1 Q. On the 13th of July, on the second day of the evacuation, did you
2 also see people being separated or not?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The men who had been separated from the rest of the group, where
5 were they taken to?
6 A. They were taken to the same house as the day before.
7 Q. Could we now be provided with the sketch or the photography that
8 the Prosecutor used, P20266?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the number of
10 the document?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic, could you kindly repeat the
12 number of the document? I think it's P2266.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. It is
14 P2266, the same document that the Prosecutor used in their examination.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a problem or is it going to take the usual
16 time to load?
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In the meantime, if you can move on to some
19 other question?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
21 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, are you familiar with the term "White House"?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Am I right in concluding that on the 12th July, the first day of
24 the evacuation, and on the 13th of July, the second day of the evacuation,
25 the men who had been separated from the rest of the group were taken to
1 one and the same house?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Am I also right in saying that in the photo that we will soon see,
4 you put a letter H next to the house that we have been talking about
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at this photo?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: The image is available. Do you want the technician
9 to zoom into the marked parts?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, please. Only -- thank you
11 very much. This is good.
12 Q. Let us repeat, Mr. Groenewegen. Would you agree with me that the
13 house marked by a letter H is the house where the men were taken to on
14 both days, on the 12th and on the 13th of July 1995? Am I right?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Am I right in saying that on the 13th of July, the refugees were
17 on the road marked by a letter A in this photo? And in the vicinity of
18 that road as well? Would that mean that the spot marked by the X in this
19 photo was the point of execution among the refugees who were there?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
21 I think he has explained that already, Mr. Stojanovic. He has
22 explained, A he's explained the line, the X, the dot.
23 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour, as well as the compound nature
25 of that question makes it impossible to answer clearly as well, and of
1 course, it's --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's explained X -- I mean I won't repeat it
3 myself although I remember but he did explain what the X is, what the dot
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I will
6 rephrase the question because I'm trying to make a different point, an
7 entirely different point, if you will allow me to do so.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
10 Q. The place marked by X, how far is it from the place where the
11 group of refugees could be found?
12 A. All I can do is estimate. I estimate about 70 or 80 metres.
13 Q. Could the refugees see the execution? Was that in their line of
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. That calls for a
16 conclusion, speculation, and it's compound as well.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: But at least he can actually state whether, in his
18 opinion, they were in direct -- they had a direct vision or view of -- or
19 whether their view would have been obstructed. So it's not complete
20 speculation. His answer may be based on what he could observe at the time
21 or could have observed at the time.
22 So, Mr. Stojanovic -- do you need to us repeat the question to
23 you, Mr. Groenewegen?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The question is whether the
25 crowd was able to perceive the execution.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible, yes.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
4 Q. Could they also hear shots, bearing in mind the 70-metre distance
5 that you've mentioned in your testimony?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: This is where speculation comes in.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will rephrase this
9 part of the answer.
10 Q. Did you yourself hear the shots?
11 A. I definitely heard the shots.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a misstatement of the evidence. I think we
14 have -- depending on which evidence he's referring to which means it would
15 be vague but the killing he's talking about is a one-shot killing.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think before he did mention that there were
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct. That's why I say it's as well as
19 vague and --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So you need to be precise, Mr. Stojanovic,
21 which shots are you referring the witness to, whether it's that one shot
22 that allegedly killed that man or whether it's other shots that may have
23 preceded or followed?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
25 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, did you personally hear that one shot which
1 accompanied the execution?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Thank you. And I will be finishing with this: Did you inform
4 your superiors about this incident?
5 A. Yes, I did that as well.
6 Q. Could you please tell us when you told them?
7 A. I reported it unofficially late that evening, and the next morning
8 I was requested to make an official statement.
9 Q. I would now like to ask you to look at Exhibit 2D32 on e-court.
10 And before we see the text on e-court, Mr. Groenewegen, I would like to
11 tell you and ask you the following. If I'm not mistaken, this is a report
12 or a statement that you provided on the 23rd of July 1995, at 1200 hours,
13 at the Pleso base where you say in the last sentence, "Groenewegen
14 reported this incident the same evening." Do you see that? Do you agree?
15 Do you see that?
16 A. [No interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you. In the Blagojevic case, on page 1036, lines 10 to 14,
18 and this is a statement that we used today, in response to a question by
19 the Prosecutor whether at any point you had the opportunity to report what
20 you saw, you replied, "That day I did not." Then there was the question,
21 "When did you report this?" And you replied, "The following morning."
22 My question is: When did you inform your superiors about this
24 A. Late that same evening, I told my direct superior, and nothing
25 else was done about it that night. And the next morning, I had to make an
1 official statement.
2 Q. Who was the immediate superior to whom you conveyed this on the
3 13th in the evening?
4 A. I don't remember that. There were a lot of people around me, and
5 everybody had his own opinion.
6 Q. Could you specifically recall who was the superior officer to whom
7 you conveyed this?
8 A. On what day do you mean? The evening or the next morning when I
9 made my official statement?
10 Q. The 13th. I'm speaking of the 13th of July, in the evening.
11 A. I'm not certain who was around me so I'm not going to mention any
13 Q. Can you mention the name of the senior officer to whom you
14 reported the following day, on the 14th?
15 A. That was Lieutenant Schotman.
16 Q. Was Major Franken informed about the incident, if you know?
17 A. I consider it highly likely that that happened.
18 Q. I would now like to look at a photograph on the e-court of this
19 area, and this is Exhibit EC 18. It's a Prosecution exhibit. If it's a
20 problem, perhaps if it's not possible to use both at the same time then
21 maybe the usher can place that on the ELMO.
22 Mr. Groenewegen, can you recall --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, stop, stop, because -- usher, can you
24 ask the witness to leave the room for a moment, please?
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, usher, can you turn that photo the other way
2 around, upside -- it is, turn it upside down. Yes. Now, this is why I
3 sent the witness there because this is all marked. There is the "White
4 House" marked, UN, there is the body marked, the bus compound, the UN, and
5 it's also signed by someone. So I wouldn't like the witness to be asked
6 questions and expect answers from him looking at a map which is already,
7 or an image which has already got markings on it and I didn't want to say
8 it in his presence. So I'm sure that there is another image like this
9 that we can make use of. Perhaps with the help of the Prosecution case
10 manager, we can identify it, and then we can upload it or download it
11 from --
12 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I think it's P01516.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Josse. Now you got the message. I
14 don't think it's something you would contest any one of you. Please bring
15 the witness in again but remove that map.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may digress for
17 just a moment, I know that this is marked and all I wanted to do was to
18 clarify an inconsistency that will appear in this marked photograph,
19 marked by Major Franken. The body of -- location of a body that the
20 witness mentioned is other than the way he described it. So I wanted to
21 clarify with him what is actually correct, in view of the fact that he
22 said today that he thought that Major Franken had been informed about it.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey? If -- I thought I saw you
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. The -- I think the witness will -- I think
2 it's clear from -- if we go back to Major Franken that the area will be
3 different but I think the Court can sort that out. I think there -- it's
4 problematic like you said to put these documents that have been marked
5 with someone else. I mean I think the point will be made clearer once
6 the -- I mean, it's already clear because -- and I can tell you that it
7 will be two different places.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the whole thing was this: First let him
9 see this image and let him mark, put marks on this image. If it's the
10 case of looking at the other one afterwards then we'll see if it's case of
11 looking at the other one but first let him mark the map, put his markings
12 on a clean map or a clean image.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I mean, he -- well, you never know but he should
14 put it the same place that he put it for me because that's the only body
15 he knows about but we can have him do it on cross. You never know.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's bring him in again.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: If we could possibly zoom in a bit, at least once.
19 I think we need to see the upper part too, because this -- yeah,
20 okay. Let's proceed this way: Please proceed with your question,
21 Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your
24 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, you have this photograph in front of you, and you
25 will receive a pointer from the usher. Can you mark on this photograph
1 the place of the execution?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's pretty small, if we could mark it -- if we
4 could bring it up a bit?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is I said we need to see the upper part,
6 but on the other hand I don't want to establish or indicate one particular
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: That --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We can zoom in the upper part again more so at least
10 we get the same --
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think it's all
13 Q. Now, Mr. Groenewegen, if you can mark on this map now --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it needs to be zoomed in further. Can you
15 zoom in further? More or less make it the same size as the -- yeah. No,
16 no, down, further down, further -- no, no, no. Yeah, yes. Yes. And you
17 can even zoom in further. And another -- and further. Yeah.
18 Now, is this better, Mr. Stojanovic?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... to be zoomed in
21 further? It can be zoomed in further.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's fine. This is fine. The
23 important thing is for the witness to be able to help us.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And your question is, do you think that with
25 what you see in front of you, you can identify the place or the location
1 of the execution or do you want us to zoom in further?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. This is fine. This is well
3 possible. [Marks].
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That is the place you have marked as being the site
5 of the execution?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the dot might go a little more
7 to the corner of the house.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Could you put your initials against that
9 dot, please? Or your signature?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. If it is not
14 in dispute that Mr. Franken in his testimony said something else, and
15 marked the place differently, then there is no need to go into that with
16 the Trial Chamber because then you will be able to see that we have two
17 different photographs indicating two different locations.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That becomes a question of submissions later on, or
19 further questions by Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'm not
21 going to press the witness on this. I'm going to finish with this topic.
22 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, thank you very much for your help, and --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: This image will be saved and will be tendered in due
24 course, I take it. Yes. Let's proceed. Do you have any further
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I am
2 going to be finishing with one more topic.
3 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, today you told us that you heard of these tragic
4 incidents at the UN base on the night between the 12th and the 13th, the
5 suicides, the deaths and everything that happened there. Do you recall
7 A. Yes, I do recall that.
8 Q. Can you help us and tell us if you know where those persons were
10 A. I can't tell you that.
11 Q. Can you please help us, tell us where this was happening, where
12 are those bodies buried?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's already answered the question, no? He
14 told you he doesn't know. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I heard him
15 say no, he doesn't know.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, because
17 the answer that I received was that he knew where this happened and where
18 the bodies were buried.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I heard him distinctly say, "I can't tell you that."
20 That's what I heard him say but if I am wrong, then the witness can
21 correct me.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sure that's the English. It's the B/C/S
23 probably that may have been the problem because I'm sure everybody that
24 was listening to the English heard him say he could not say.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I see in line
1 15 on page 46 of the transcript, that it also says, "I can." I know.
2 This is what confused me.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: But there is also that sign which indicates that
4 that's incomplete.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, so your definite answer is that you do not know
7 where the bodies are buried?
8 A. I do not know where the bodies were buried.
9 Q. When you arrived at the compound, did you hear that the bodies
10 were buried somewhere inside the UN compound?
11 A. Absolutely no.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank
13 you, Mr. Groenewegen. We have no further questions.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
15 Who is going next? Madam Fauveau is representing General Miletic
16 and she will be putting some questions to you.
17 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
18 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, when you gave your testimony before the Dutch
19 authorities, you talked about a criminal network involved in the stealing
20 of some of the UN equipment. Do you remember what this criminal network
22 A. In the first place, I don't recall using the word "criminal
23 network." However, I can confirm that theft of UN equipment or materials,
24 that this happened.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness Exhibit
1 number 2D34, please? Can we turn to page 3, please?
2 Q. Witness, in the first paragraph, you can read as follows: "[In
3 English] [Previous translation continues] ... in Pale there was a criminal
4 network which was involved in theft of UN goods and equipment. The local
5 population indicated that the headquarters of the local Mafia was located
6 in Pale. Some of the diesel cans stolen from OP Mike were later found in
7 Pale." [Interpretation] Does this jog your memory?
8 A. Yes, it does do that.
9 Q. Can we agree that Pale was under Muslim control, the village of
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And the diesel cans which were fuel cans and that had been stolen
13 from the Mike OP had in fact been stolen by the Muslims; is that right?
14 A. Well, I did not myself see the thieves but if this was in Pale
15 they must have been Muslims.
16 Q. Is it true to factor that when you were in the Srebrenica enclave,
17 you were never short of ammunition?
18 A. We were never allowed to use munitions so I wouldn't dare speak of
19 a shortage.
20 Q. At your debriefing, you said that you had been invited by some
21 chief in Jaglici to have a coffee and share a coffee with him; is that
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Can you tell me whether this man was a military leader?
25 A. That I cannot tell you.
1 Q. Is it true to factor that the refugees started arriving in
2 Potocari on the 11th of July?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. And can you describe to us what you did when this first refugees
5 started arriving?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. We've been through this
7 with other questions practically identical.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have covered this amply, in an ample
10 manner, Madam Fauveau. If you have further questions eliciting
11 information which we don't have already, go ahead, but avoid repetitions,
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].
14 Q. Can you tell us where you were from the 11th to the 12th of July,
15 during the night?
16 A. We slept outside, on location around the compound.
17 Q. That's where I have a problem because a while ago, this was on
18 page 27, line 4, you said that you were in a shelter on that night. Could
19 you -- can you tell me if you remember where it is exactly you spent the
20 night from the 11th to the 12th of July?
21 A. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head.
22 Q. Are you sure that you slept that night?
23 A. The few hours that I slept, I know that I slept outside.
24 Q. Can it be said that among the refugees in Potocari, you did not
25 see anybody who had been wounded by a gunshot?
1 A. I don't remember whether I saw anybody like that.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown the same
3 exhibit, 2D34? Let's turn to page 8, please. This is just below the
4 heading, "Treatment of citizens, refugees."
5 Q. Third line, there is a sentence, "[In English] [Previous
6 translation continues] ... gunshot found among the citizens, refugees."
7 [Interpretation] Can you now remember that you did not see anybody wounded
8 by gunshot?
9 A. I did not see anybody with gunshot wounds.
10 Q. Is it also fair to say that you did not see that Serbs would have
11 targeted non-military targets such as houses or places of worship?
12 A. As far as I can remember, everything was basically under fire.
13 Q. Can we turn to the next page, page 9? The exhibit is still 2D34.
14 Please have a look at the first sentence, it reads as follows: "[In
15 English] He did not see that houses, churches or other non-military
16 targets were fired upon." [Interpretation] Sir, this is a statement you
17 gave in 1995, in September 1995. Is it likely that you had more vivid
18 memory of what happened in Potocari then than now?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. So can we agree that you did not see that Serbs would have fired
21 on non-military targets?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Today you mentioned the house to which the men who had been
24 separated were taken. Can we first agree that the men who had been
25 separated from their families were aged between 16 and 60?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you describe the house to which they were taken?
3 A. It looked pretty dilapidated and one wall was entirely missing.
4 Q. Is it fair to say that when you testified in the Blagojevic case,
5 and you saw a video recording -- you saw a video clip and you were not
6 able to recognise the house?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. On the 13th or -- yes, on the 13th of July, did you have an
9 opportunity to go by the house?
10 A. It's possible.
11 Q. Is it fair to say that you did not see any personal belongings in
12 front of the house?
13 A. No, I did not see them.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown P1516?
15 This is an exhibit that was just marked.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Does the counsel want the marked picture or the
17 clean one?
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] He can be shown the marked one.
19 Q. Sir, in this photograph, can you show us the road on which the
20 refugees were moving?
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. Can you show us where the Serb army were? I mean those members of
23 the Serb army that were the closest to the refugees.
24 A. [Marks].
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. So for the record, in reply to the
1 first question or request by Madam Fauveau, the witness drew or marked in
2 the shape of an inverted Y the direction in which according to him or the
3 road on which, according to him, the refugees were moving.
4 To the right of the inverted leg of the -- of the leg of the
5 inverted Y, he marked seven -- six dots, which according to him indicate
6 the -- where the Serb army were closest to the refugees.
7 Can I ask you, please, to put on the left-hand side, again, your
8 initials, please?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].
10 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be saved as a separate document, okay?
11 Okay. Yes, Madam Fauveau?
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Is it fair to say that in the afternoon of the 13th of July, you
14 were tasked to accompany the refugees?
15 A. That's correct. It was.
16 Q. And therefore, were you not between the refugees and the Serb
18 A. That's correct. I was.
19 Q. Could you draw a Y on the location where you were -- an X, sorry,
20 on the location where you were on the afternoon of the 13th of July?
21 A. Could you give me a more accurate time?
22 Q. Well, where you were normally in the afternoon, and where you were
23 the most often in the afternoon of the 13th of July when you would
24 accompany refugees.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One question: Why have we lost the markings?
1 Because I think it's important that -- it's back now. Yes. Okay.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, for the record the witness puts a circle around
4 the part of the inverted Y, mainly the leg, and part of the dots where he
5 previously had indicated the presence of the Serb -- members of the Serb
7 Now, could you explain to us why you put that big circle where you
8 put it? And why not a small dot, for example, or an X, as you were asked
9 to put?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked to mark the area where I
11 spent -- where I spent most of the afternoon and that was not one single
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So that explains to you why he didn't put an
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. To be more precise,
16 I might have made the same pear-shaped line that I made on the previous
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].
20 Q. Sir, if I look at this area that you indicated as being the area
21 where you were in the afternoon of the 13th of July, it would seem to me
22 that you were also behind the BSA, not just between the Serb military and
23 the refugees, but also behind the Serb military. Is that so?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. But wasn't your task to be between the military and the refugees?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. This is confusing and there is people
2 all around the way he's described it. It makes these kind of questions
3 are really just confusing the situation. If there's people all around as
4 he's described, behind, in front, around, I mean, it really is not taking
5 us anywhere.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it can easily be solved by rephrasing the
7 question but I think your objection needs to be sustained.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].
10 Q. Why, at a given point in time -- sorry, sorry, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Please rephrase your question and I think you are
14 going in the right direction from what I could hear.
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].
16 Q. Sir, why, at a given point in time, did you leave the area that
17 was yours, next to the refugees?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the question should be phrased in a
19 different manner, why at a certain point in time he found himself in the
20 position that he has described and not in between the Serbs and the
21 refugees? I think that's how the question should be phrased, and then he
22 can answer it. And I think he has already answered it before but let's
23 give you the benefit of the doubt.
24 So this is the question, Mr. Groenewegen: You've agreed that at a
25 certain point in time, you found yourself behind the position of the Serb
1 soldiers. How did that come about?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The site or rather the line behind
3 which the refugees were standing moved a few times over the course of the
4 day as a result of the turmoil.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].
7 Q. Is it therefore fair to say that when you were on this outer line
8 of the circle you drew, behind you, you still have members or military of
9 the Serb army?
10 A. That's possible, yes.
11 Q. And then, at a given point in time, on the 13th of July, you
12 witnessed an execution. When you saw it happen, were there military --
13 Serb military between you and the site of execution?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And in this case, what were you doing on that precise location
16 right then?
17 A. We had to extend the line that I was telling you about around that
18 time. We were told to go deeper into the area to see whether anybody was
19 going off on their own. And that took me to the site that I marked with
20 an X on the map earlier.
21 Q. You mentioned people going about on their own or going off on
22 their own. Is it fair to say that people were free to move in this area?
23 A. No, they were not, but you can't restrain so many people with a
24 few men.
25 Q. Since you went to check that people could not just move off on
1 their own, is it fair to say that the DutchBat members were tasked to let
2 the Muslims go to the road on their way to the buses?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Today a question was put to you as to the fact that you first
5 mention in the Blagojevic case that some people did not want to board the
6 buses. Do you remember this question being put to you earlier on today?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Before you testified in the Blagojevic case, you gave various
9 statements and in none of them did you mention this. Would you allow for
10 the possibility that you had a much better memory in 1995 than was the
11 case in 2003 when you testified in the Blagojevic case?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would you allow that your memory as to the wish on the part of the
14 refugees to go when you testified in the Blagojevic case was not quite
16 A. I would like to have that question reformulated.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And also, I think it's the case of showing him the
18 specific citation or quotation from his testimony in Blagojevic, I think,
19 because he's testified on that on various instances today.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It was said today on page 13, lines
21 2 to 6. And with regard to his testimony in the Blagojevic case, it was
22 page 1025 on the 10th of July 2003.
23 Mr. President, could this be put on the ELMO? This is the page
24 concerned in the Blagojevic transcript.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: 1025. Yes.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's the right page,
2 Mr. President. Lines 13 to 16.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, can you read English or not? Or do
4 you need it translated into Dutch?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Need that, thank you very much.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So please read it through. Does he have it? Page
7 1025. He has it.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, do I have to read out
9 the passage to him?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I think I asked him to read it, and from what I
11 could observe, he was reading it.
12 So let's move because we are moving very, very slowly. It's being
13 put to you, Mr. Groenewegen, that while in previous -- while in Blagojevic
14 you mentioned and gave details about refugees who did not want to get on
15 the buses, on their own account, you had never mentioned this before, and
16 it's being put to you that what you stated in Blagojevic may not be
17 correct and a reason that it's being suggested to you is that your memory
18 before testifying in Blagojevic should have been better than when you
19 testified in Blagojevic because it was nearer, more proximate to the
20 occurrence of the events so would you allow for the -- would you agree
21 with the proposition that what you stated in Blagojevic may not be
22 correct? That you may have been wrong, in other words?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's true that that was the first
24 time I mentioned it. I also believe that I remember saying some things
25 can be rectified.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So you stand by what you testified in Blagojevic, in
2 other words?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Can we have a break now, Madam Fauveau? Or
5 are you finishing with your --
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have at most two or
7 three questions so maybe I could finish.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Certainly. Go ahead.
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].
10 Q. Sir, last week, during the proofing sessions with the Prosecutor,
11 did you say that the memory you have today of those events is not very
13 A. I have to admit that after 11 years, some things fade.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we move to private session
15 just for one question, Mr. President?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Madam Fauveau. Let's move into private
17 session for a while, please.
18 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. We are going to have a
21 25-minute break.
22 Mr. Krgovic or Mr. Josse, I don't know who is taking the witness,
23 and Mr. Haynes, do you think that between you you'll finish this witness
24 in 45 minutes?
25 MR. HAYNES: Yes, we will.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. And shall we send Mr. Koster away
3 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. We'll do that.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: How long do you think you will require, Mr. Haynes?
5 MR. HAYNES: There may be scope to deal with Mr. Koster in chief
6 this evening.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Then keep him here.
8 Okay, Mr. Thayer, your day is not over yet. Thank you.
9 25 minutes.
10 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: It will soon be over, Mr. Groenewegen.
13 Defence for General Gvero?
14 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour we have no questions for this witness.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much.
16 And Defence for General Pandurevic?
17 MR. HAYNES: Just a few, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
19 MR. HAYNES: May I?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
22 Q. I hope you don't mind me asking you this question,
23 Mr. Groenewegen, but are you working at the moment?
24 A. Yes. I have a job.
25 Q. And without going into the details of precisely where you live, I
1 take it you live somewhere here in the Netherlands not very far from The
2 Hague, a couple of hours travel or so?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And I just want to go in, as it were, into the mechanics of how
5 you were required to come here to court. Were you initially written to at
6 your home address by the Office of the Prosecutor and told that a court
7 date was upcoming?
8 A. I received a phone call.
9 Q. Was that at your home address?
10 A. At my former address, at my parents' place.
11 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell us reasonably precisely what
12 the date of your discharge was from the Royal Dutch Army?
13 A. That was in December 2003.
14 Q. Thank you. And when you attended to give evidence in July of
15 2003, was contact made with you through your employers, the Royal Dutch
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you very much. Then that line of questioning will go no
20 I just want to deal quickly, please, with three very brief areas
21 of your evidence. In the transcript of your evidence that was -- that is
22 going to be placed into evidence, at page 1020, you said this in answer to
23 a question in relation to July the 12th, "Did you have any particular
24 orders with respect of where to direct the refugees?" And your answer
25 was: "We were to direct them towards the base where at that time there
1 was still space." Is that correctly stating the position, that on the
2 morning of the 12th of July, you were under orders to direct refugees to
3 the UN base at Potocari?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And do you recall who gave you those orders and when you got
7 A. The time was between 6.00 and 7.00 in the morning and I don't know
8 who I received them from.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: The question involved a misstatement of the former
11 evidence, in reviewing that, that appears to me to be the 11th we are
12 talking about.
13 MR. HAYNES: Very sorry, that's my mistake. I meant the 11th,
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, that's solved. Let's proceed with your
16 next question.
17 MR. HAYNES:
18 Q. Moving now on to the -- I think the 12th, you described in your
19 evidence in the Blagojevic case the first soldiers who arrived near to the
20 base at Potocari, and, asked to describe them, you said, "They were not
21 dressed as an ordinary army. It was a gathering of all sorts of
22 camouflage and the same goes for the arms they were carrying." Is that an
23 accurate description of the first soldiers who arrived at Potocari?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Later on you were asked to describe the four soldiers whom you say
1 you saw carry out an execution, and you gave this description at page
2 1035: "It was camouflage in various shades, various colours." Did you
3 mean by that that the soldiers were each of them wearing different sorts
4 of uniform, different camouflages?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And rather like the soldiers that you saw arrive first at
7 Potocari, they didn't appear to you to be like ordinary soldiers?
8 A. To me, ordinary soldiers are people recognisable by wearing the
9 same attire, and that certainly did not hold true for these men.
10 Q. Thank you very much. That's very helpful.
11 Is it also the case that there seemed to be some confusion between
12 these four men as to what they were to do and as to who was to carry out
13 the shooting?
14 A. As far as I'm concerned, all I can do is suggest because I don't
15 know the language and I don't know what those men were saying to each
16 other but it seemed to me that they were hesitating as to who would fire
17 the shot.
18 Q. Thank you very much. That's all I've got to ask you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Is there any re-examination,
20 Mr. McCloskey?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Prost has got a few questions for you.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE PROST: I wonder if you could clarify one point relating to
25 the men you saw in the house and the buses, and I'll just take you to two
1 parts of your evidence. First, in the Blagojevic case, and this in the
2 actual exhibit is at page 20 on the hard copy transcript it's page 1031.
3 I'll just read to you what you had said when you were talking about the
4 men. You said -- you had given an estimate of the numbers and you
5 said, "And were all of those few hundred men held in the house at the same
6 time?" That was the question put to you. Your answer was, "No, as soon
7 as the house was full, they were taken to a bus." "And then what
8 happened?" And your answer: "The buses drove off in the same direction
9 as the ones into which the buses with the women and children had
10 disappeared. And as soon as the house was full again, the same was
12 So that's what you had indicated in terms of the men in the house
13 in your testimony in Blagojevic. And earlier today you were asked a
14 question by Mr. Zivanovic regarding this same issue and this is at page
15 22, lines 8 to 14, and you said, the question put was, "Thank you. You
16 said that the men who were separated were taken to a house and you
17 explained that in your previous statements you explained that you saw them
18 being taken there but you could not see if they were coming out of the
19 house and where. Do you recall those words of yours? You told this to
20 The Hague investigators and to the Dutch authorities." And your answer
21 was: "That is correct. I have seen no buses with men leave."
22 Now, I appreciate the passage of time here but I'm wondering if
23 you can help me as to whether you saw the men from the house being taken
24 in buses or not.
25 A. That's the only thing I did not see. I saw the men in the house,
1 and I saw moments that the house was almost empty and was filled up again
2 and I saw a bus leaving with men on it but I never saw them being escorted
3 from the house to the bus.
4 JUDGE PROST: Okay. Thank you very much. That's all I wanted to
5 clarify. Thanks.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Prost. Let's go -- I think the
7 witness can leave.
8 Mr. Groenewegen, I wish to thank you on behalf of the Trial
9 Chamber, and also the Tribunal, for having come over to give testimony.
10 You will receive all the assistance you require from our staff to
11 facilitate your return back home. Have a safe journey. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents? Exhibits? Prosecution?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, we just had one new one which
16 is 65 ter number 02266. That's the image where he marked the pear shape
17 and the house that's related to the previous exhibit.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think the exhibits from the previous case should
20 already be in pursuant toe your ruling.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Except for P48, but anyway I'm not going to
22 discuss that. Any objection on the part of the Defence teams? So that
23 document is so admitted.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We would like to admit into evidence the statement
1 we used in the cross-examination. It is Defence mark 2D28, in whole, in
3 JUDGE AGIUS: In whole, okay. Any objection?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. I don't see the relevance of a
5 in-whole statement coming in for this particular issue unless there is
6 something I'm missing. It's not an identification issue.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Why do you seek to tender it in whole?
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I intended to ask just to tender a part of this
9 statement, but after the question of Judge Prost, I'd like to tender
10 whole, the statement into evidence.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection on your part again now, having heard
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah. I would object. I don't see how the whole
14 statement is something that's relevant under this particular situation.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So it is admitted as a whole, or in its entirety.
17 Borovcanin team? Mr. Stojanovic, you made use of two documents, 2D32 and
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour, and
20 we would like to tender the statement which marked -- was marked as 4D --
21 2D32 of the 23rd of July 1995 as well as the map or the video footage of
22 Potocari marked as 4DIC22.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections on your part?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Not to the map but again we are getting into an
25 another whole statement, and again if there is a part of the statement
1 that deals with a particular issue, I have no problem with it but a whole
2 statement that's getting us into a precedent that will swamp us all with
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you seek to tender the entire statement,
5 Mr. Stojanovic, or only part of it?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's the statement
7 which has four sentences, if I can read that correctly. It's a very short
8 statement and it takes up a quarter of a page so I don't think that it's a
9 problem to have the whole statement admitted. We only used the one
10 sentence before last.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think that's correct. If that's that one from
13 Zagreb that's very short, no problem.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So your documents are being admitted, and
15 finally, Madam Fauveau, Miletic? You referred to IC24, but not only.
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But I don't
17 seek to tender it because I read out the relevant passages. However, I
18 would like to seek to tender the aerial photograph marked by the witness
19 during my cross-examination.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You would know the number, Madam Registrar?
21 It is IC24, then, isn't it? Okay. So it is so admitted. I assume there
22 is no objection on your part.
23 Now, before we bring in the next witness, I had asked you in the
24 beginning of the sitting to think and come back with a feedback on the
25 Prosecution motion of the 23rd of two days ago to admit prior written
1 testimony of Koster pursuant to Rule 92 ter. Does any of the Defence team
2 object to this motion? Yes, Mr. Haynes?
3 MR. HAYNES: I don't believe anybody does.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. So we can hand down here and
5 now an oral decision. We'll motivate it very briefly. The Prosecution
6 seeks to tender into evidence the testimony of video testimony of the
7 witness's Rule 61 hearing in Karadzic and Mladic case. Rule 92 ter
8 requirements, namely that the witness is present, available for
9 cross-examination and can attest to the accuracy of the statements are
10 fully met. There is no objection from the -- any of the Defence teams.
11 The motion is granted.
12 That's it.
13 I think we can bring in the witness who has been waiting here all
14 afternoon or the evening.
15 While we wait for him, as regards the other point I raised at the
16 beginning of the sitting, the protective measures motion in relation to
17 that one witness, yes, Madam Nikolic?
18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence teams
19 consulted each other and there are no objections to this motion. You can
20 make a decision. Thank you.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So we'll come down with the decision
22 tomorrow, with a prior indication that it will be granted.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon or good evening.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Trial Chamber I wish to welcome you
2 to this Tribunal, and in this case in particular where you have been
3 summoned as a Prosecution witness. I also wish to express my regret that
4 you had to stay waiting all this time. However, we had anticipated that
5 we would start with you at sometime today and unfortunately we couldn't
6 start earlier. I am sure that with your background and training, you
7 would understand.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Will you be testifying in English or in Dutch?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be testifying in Dutch.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So you have testified before, so you know more or
12 less what the procedure is. Madam Usher is going to hand to you the text
13 of a solemn declaration that will be once read out by you, that would be
14 your solemn undertaking with us that in the course of your testimony, you
15 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So
16 please proceed with the solemn declaration and then we can start.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: EELCO CHRISTIAN MARTIN JODOCUS KOSTER
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it -- please make yourself comfortable.
22 I'll explain a couple of things further. Your presence here in this case
23 will be much shorter than what you experienced when you testified before.
24 The reason is that we have admitted your previous testimony as testimony
25 in this case, even a few minutes ago we admitted also the testimony that
1 you had given in the proceedings in absentia, sort of, in the Mladic and
2 Karadzic case. So what is going to happen is that Mr. Thayer, who will be
3 the Prosecution officer in charge with your examination-in-chief, will
4 give us a brief summary of the substance of your previous testimony. He
5 may have a few questions for you, which you would be required to answer,
6 and then it will be the turn of the various Defence teams to cross-examine
7 you one after the other.
8 Cross-examination will cover the entire subject matter that you
9 testified upon already in a previous -- in the previous cases.
10 So Mr. Thayer, he's all yours.
11 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. And I will do my best to
12 conclude in the time we have. I may need an extra ten minutes during
13 tomorrow's session but I think we will be able to move pretty quickly.
14 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
15 Q. Sir, good evening. Would you state and spell your last name for
16 the record?
17 A. My last name is Koster, K-O-S-T-E-R.
18 Q. And how old are you, sir?
19 A. I'm 38 years old.
20 Q. Sir, I want to briefly review your military service history. You
21 served with the 11th Air Mobile Brigade, 13th Battalion, from 1993 through
22 2004, during which time you served as deputy commanding officer at company
23 level and logistics officer and head of personnel at battalion level.
24 From September 2004 through January 2006, you served in and eventually
25 commanded the high-risk Brigade of the Royal Marechaussee, based at
1 Schiphol Airport. From January 2006 to the present, you have served as
2 the brigade commander of the criminal investigations unit based at
3 Schiphol Airport and you hold the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. Have I
4 accurately summarised your military service history, sir?
5 A. Yes, that's an accurate summary.
6 Q. What I'd like to do now sir is proceed as Mr. President has stated
7 to summarise your Rule 61 hearing testimony given in July of 1996. And if
8 at any time I say something that is not accurate or that you would like to
9 amend, please do so, and I will give you an opportunity to do that.
11 Mr. Koster arrived at the DutchBat Potocari base in January 1995
12 as a fist Lieutenant assigned as the battalion's logistics officer. On 11
13 July 1995, he was in command of approximately 30 DutchBat soldiers who
14 were posted outside the UN compound to receive an expected influx of
15 refugees. Because the VRS had a direct line of fire on the main gate at
16 the compound entrance and had previously fired upon it, and DutchBat
17 vehicles exiting it, DutchBat soldiers guided the refugees along a safer
18 alternate route which led to a hole which DutchBat soldiers had cut in the
19 compound fence.
20 At approximately 1500 hours on 11 July, the refugees began
21 arriving in small groups. These refugees were directed at first to take
22 shelter in the former bus station site outside the compound. Later in the
23 day, the refugees began arriving from Srebrenica on foot and crowded on UN
24 trucks and APCs which also transported wounded. The road was fully
25 crowded with refugees who were eventually permitted to enter the compound
1 via the hole in the fence. The refugees were terrified, screaming and
2 crying, and consisted mostly of women, children and older women and men.
3 Another 20 to 30 DutchBat soldiers reinforced the original 30. There was
4 very close shelling during the day near their position but they were not
5 shelled or fired at directly. The refugees stopped arriving late in the
6 evening and numbered approximately 4.000 to 5.000 inside the compound and
7 15.000 outside the compound.
8 Inside the compound the refugees were fed with a soup made from
9 rations but there was no food for those outside the compound. Lieutenant
10 Colonel Koster and his men spent that night post outside the compound
11 where they patrolled to protect the refugees and slept.
12 In the morning of 12 July 1995, wounded continued to arrive at
13 their position seeking medical care and separated women and children were
14 trying to reunite with each other.
15 At approximately 1300 hours, 20 to 30 VRS soldiers arrived at his
16 position and stayed behind the red and white tape DutchBat soldiers had
17 placed across the road. Major Nikolic subsequently arrived and walked
18 among the refugees. A VRS commander later told Lieutenant Koster that he
19 would bring bread for the refugees after which a small truck with bread
20 and a fire truck with water arrived accompanied by a camera team which
21 filmed the distribution of bread and water the refugees. The trucks
22 returned once more to distribute more bread and water.
23 At approximately 1600 hours, General Mladic arrived at Koster's
24 position and the two introduced themselves. When Koster asked Mladic what
25 his intentions were, Mladic did not reply and walked through the tape
1 towards the refugees.
2 Lieutenant Koster reported this and was told by his commander
3 officer to that he should send Mladic to Lieutenant Colonel Karremans at
4 the compound. Mladic replied that he was in charge there that he would do
5 as he pleased and that Koster would see what was going to happen.
6 Mladic then told Koster that it would be best for the DutchBat
7 soldiers to cooperate. Mladic went over and addressed the refugees
8 accompanied by a camera team. During this time, Koster repeated to Mladic
9 that he should go to the compound and during this time he saw that buses
10 had arrived which he also reported. Koster asked Mladic again what he was
11 going to do, to which Mladic replied that he would evacuate the refugees
12 to another location.
13 Very soon thereafter, VRS soldiers pulled away Lieutenant Koster's
14 men who were protecting the refugees and told the refugees to go to the
15 buses. There were approximately 40 to 50 VRS soldiers there at that point
16 and more were arriving, some with dogs.
17 The DutchBat soldiers were severely outnumbered and were helpless.
18 The situation was taken out of their hands by the VRS soldiers who pushed
19 and shouted at the refugees to go to the buses and get inside them, then
20 overfilled the buses with them.
21 The buses then left and they waited for other vehicles to arrive.
22 Lieutenant Koster later learned that DutchBat had sent jeeps to
23 escort the buses but after the first transport the VRS took the jeeps so
24 DutchBat was unable to escort any more convoys. Before the buses were
25 loaded, men of fighting age were separated and placed inside a house after
1 their belongings were taken away. DutchBat soldiers protested but they
2 were outnumbered. The transportations lasted until the end of the day on
3 12 July.
4 The VRS told them to clear the road of refugees so that vehicles
5 could move between Srebrenica and Potocari.
6 Lieutenant Koster and his men remained with the refugees that
7 night in the area of the bus station, patrolling during the night. In the
8 beginning of that night, groups of VRS soldiers returned to the area and
9 at gun point forced the majority of the DutchBat soldiers guarding the
10 refugees to give up their weapons, vests, and helmets. During the night
11 the DutchBat soldiers continued to help the sick and wounded who were
12 seeking medical help.
13 He also saw Mladic twice that night driving between Potocari and
14 Srebrenica and back.
15 On the morning of 13 July, the buses arrived at approximately 0700
16 hours and the transportations resumed and lasted until approximately 1800
17 hours. By which time all the refugees, including those inside the
18 compound and the men who had been separate were gone.
19 Only the wounded remained. Also in the morning of 13 July,
20 Lieutenant Koster cut down a man who had hanged himself from the ceiling
21 of a small building. Later that day, he and two colleagues also
22 investigated a rumour that eight or nine bodies had been seen at a
23 location near the compound.
24 They then located nine bodies in a field near a river. Seven were
25 lying face down and shot in the middle of the back and two were lying on
1 their sides. The bodies were males dressed in civilian clothes.
2 They took photographs and found some papers.
3 Colonel Koster, has the summary I just read accurately reflected
4 your recollection of your testimony in 1996?
5 A. Yes, it did.
6 Q. What I'd like to do now, sir, is take that last topic first, with
7 respect to the nine bodies, and just ask you a couple of questions for
8 clarification that weren't asked during that Rule 61 hearing.
9 You testified previously that you went to the location with two
10 other soldiers. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what were their names?
11 A. There was Lieutenant Rutten and Major van Schaik.
12 Q. And when you say major, was he a Sergeant Major or a "full Major"
14 A. Sergeant Major.
15 Q. As you headed to that location, did you have any concerns about
16 being seen by the VRS doing that?
17 A. That was not the intention. We certainly had the feeling we were
18 not welcome there and we had been told that we were only to be allowed to
19 move around the refugees and that the Serbian soldiers didn't want us to
20 go further away from the compound in order to avoid misunderstandings
21 about our intentions.
22 Q. So I'm just pausing to allow the interpretation. So what steps if
23 any did you take to avoid being seen?
24 A. We tried to be discreet as possible and to move to the place. We
25 left the road and tried to be as discreet as we could.
1 Q. At this time, if we could be shown P01516 on e-court, please?
2 While we are waiting for the image to upload, sir, let me just ask you a
3 couple other questions. You stated to the Office of the Prosecutor back
4 in September of 1995 that you suspected that the people that you saw that
5 had been shot had been shot recently.
6 A. Yes. That is correct.
7 Q. Upon what did you base that statement that you made?
8 A. The bodies that we found all had been shot in the back. The shots
9 to me looked to be fresh, and made the impressions of being inflicted
10 recently. So the bodies looked fresh.
11 Q. And was there anything about the location of the wounds that you
12 saw that made an impression on you, sir?
13 A. Yes, there was. All the wounds were situated in the middle part
14 of the back, and it looked as if all had been inflicted at the same
15 height, as if they had been shot all at the same height of the back.
16 Q. And was there anything -- and again I'm pausing for the
17 interpretation -- was there anything about the positioning of the bodies
18 that left an impression with you as well?
19 A. Yes, there was. When we found the bodies, it would seem as if
20 they had been lined up as if the people had been standing side by side and
21 then shot to death.
22 Q. Now, do you have an image in front of you, sir? And here we go
23 again but if we could turn it on its head, please? And with the
24 assistance of Madam Usher, I'm going to ask to you take a stylus and if
25 you can orient yourself for a moment, do you see what you remember as
1 being the UN base depicted in this -- the actual compound, sir, being
2 depicted in this overhead?
3 A. Yes. And I am indicating now the location of the compound.
4 Q. Okay. And you've just marked that with a circle, okay. And do
5 you see an area that you knew to be referred to as the bus station or the
6 bus compound? And we may have to scoot it up a little bit. Oh, you
7 can't? Then can we zoom out? Once it's marked we can't do anything with
8 it? Okay. Can we start over then, and zoom down, please?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I think we can cancel the mark to start
10 with and if we do that, then we can zoom out.
11 MR. THAYER: That's what I'm asking for, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Then, Colonel Koster, please, you show him how to
13 cancel the mark he's made. We zoom out, once at least, and then he can
14 put this same mark to indicate the -- no, zoom out, not -- I think that
15 should be okay. So Colonel, could you kindly mark again the DutchBat
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The location was here.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So now it's no longer a circle - because of the
19 transcript - it's a rectangle, unfinished rectangle.
20 MR. THAYER:
21 Q. And do you see an area that you recognise as being the bus
23 A. Yes, I can see that. It is located here.
24 Q. And if you would just write "bus compound" to the right of that,
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. Or just "bus" is fine. May as well finish it now. And do you see
3 an area that you had known to be occupied by abandoned factories as well?
4 A. Yes. I can indicate that. It is here.
5 Q. If you would just write "factories" next to that, please?
6 A. [Marks].
7 Q. Now, would you please mark for the Trial Chamber the route that
8 you took with the other two soldiers and the ultimate location where you
9 recall finding the bodies?
10 A. This is the route, and this is the location where the bodies were
12 Q. And if you would, just next to that little circle, sir, if you
13 would just write, "Nine bodies"?
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. And for the record the route that you've drawn is a line that
16 extends from that circle to the right and then upwards a short distance.
17 Okay. I think we can save this, and if you could, before we do that, just
18 initial the lower right-hand corner and date it as well, please?
19 A. [Marks].
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think we can stop here for today.
21 Colonel, we will see you again tomorrow afternoon at 2.15. I'm
22 confident that we should be able to finish with your testimony tomorrow.
23 We'll do our best. Thank you, and good evening.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of
1 October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.