1 Wednesday, 1 November 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Madam Registrar, could you
6 call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Everyone is here except Stephane
10 Bourgon. If there are at any time problems with interpretation, please
11 draw our attention straight away, all right?
12 We can bring in the witness, I suppose.
13 Are there any preliminaries? I mean -- we will be handing down
14 later on our decision on protective measures and safe conduct for
15 Witness PW-115. I think I anticipated yesterday what the outcome is going
16 to be. Both requests are being granted, both safe custody and the
17 protective measures asked for, all right?
18 [The witness entered court]
19 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-113 [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you had a good rest?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I really didn't sleep so well.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not good news, but we are going to make a big
2 effort today, all of us, to try and bring your testimony to an end as
3 quickly as possible.
4 You will recall that yesterday Mr. Krgovic, who is lead counsel
5 defending General Gvero here, was still cross-examining you when we had to
6 adjourn. He will very soon now continue with his cross-examination and
7 bring it to an end. He will then be followed by Madam Fauveau for General
8 Miletic and the Defence team for General Pandurevic, although not
9 necessarily in that order.
10 Yes. Mr. Krgovic, good morning to you. You may proceed with your
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I just
13 wanted to ask the usher to move the screen a little bit so that I can see
14 the witness.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That I think we can do. However, then I
16 want to make sure in the public gallery that you do not allow anyone to
17 sit in a position where they could get a transversal of you off the
18 witness. I see you nodding, so I know that you are understanding exactly
19 what I mean.
20 We are taking all the necessary precautions - you can put your
21 mind at rest - to protect you and your identity, Witness.
22 Mr. Krgovic.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]
24 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, do you remember that yesterday I asked you
25 about that first day, the 6th of July, and I'm sure you remember what you
1 answered. I'm going to continue with the chronology, and I will put
2 questions to you similar to those of the Prosecutor. Specifically, I'm
3 going to ask you about the events from the 6th onwards until the 9th or
4 the 10th of July. My line of questions will be related to your previous
5 statements. So I would just like to ask you to confirm if I have
6 interpreted properly what you said earlier.
7 Could you please tell me, after the 6th of July you heard that
8 forces of the army of Republika Srpska had advanced and you had withdrawn
9 to Viogor; is that correct?
10 A. Yes. We actually went towards the village of Suceska, Viogor.
11 There's a large number of villages there in a small area. And after we
12 saw UNPROFOR who had began to withdraw towards Srebrenica, we went after
14 Q. After that you heard that soldiers of the army, of the B and H,
15 carried out a counter-attack and briefly managed to recapture starting
17 A. I cannot remember that.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: I would like to show Exhibit 4D00048.
19 [Interpretation] This is page 2 of this statement. Could we show the
20 witness the B/C/S version, please.
21 Q. Sir, it's a sentence somewhere in the middle. It starts
22 with: "In the meantime, we heard that Chetniks had advanced and moved
23 towards Srebrenica and the Slapovici settlement," and then we skip and bit
24 and then it says: "That's where we heard that members of our army
25 returned the Chetniks to their starting positions, and soon after, our
1 forces returned to the starting positions."
2 Do you see where that is written?
3 A. Yes, yes. I couldn't recall that right away but, yes, that is
4 correct. These were the positions -- I actually knew where the UNPROFOR
5 soldiers were. That's probably where they were.
6 Q. After that you heard from soldiers, from your soldiers, that NATO
7 aeroplanes would bomb the Serbian army and tanks and that your soldiers
8 were planning, if this were to happen, to carry out a counter-action to
9 retake lost positions. Do you remember that?
10 A. It's been a long time since I saw the statement. Can I please
11 look at it again?
12 Q. Yes. It's a sentence starting from "in the morning," it's lower
13 down, "we heard from the soldiers that NATO aeroplanes were expected to
15 A. There was a large crowd of people, so we probably heard it from
16 the soldiers. That's the answer. And probably also from UNPROFOR.
17 Q. This statement in your -- what you said in your previous
18 statement, then, is correct.
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you. After that, you went towards the direction of
21 the village of Susnjari where you found your father.
22 A. We went with my father -- well, my mother, my sister, the other
23 refugees. From the camp we were going in the direction of Suceska. These
24 were people from other villages too. I don't know how I lost my father.
25 I don't know whether he went to carry something or it take something. I'm
1 not sure. Clothing, something like that. But we got lost, and my mother
2 and my sister went to Potocari, and I went with my uncle and another
3 cousin towards the village of Susnjari where I met my father. I think
4 that he had gone to some other cousin's or relative's house to take
5 something from there, clothing or something.
6 Q. Then you found your father at Susnjari when they were lining up in
7 their brigade. He belonged to the 284th Brigade of the B and H army; is
8 that correct?
9 A. I think yesterday that I responded to this question, and I will
10 give you the answer again. I don't remember the exact number. Maybe I
11 recalled it at the time, but now it's been 10 years ago. But I think that
12 brigade or that unit, I don't know what it was, was at Cerska or
13 Konjevic Polje. When he came to Srebrenica, I think that he -- I don't
14 know whether they were demobilised. I don't know the correct term for it,
15 but they were inactive. I know that my father wasn't summoned anywhere.
16 He was with us the entire time.
17 When we got there, he probably knew the people who were lining up,
18 those people who had been in his unit. So I tried to join him in those
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... 00046. 4D.
21 [Interpretation] Your Honours, is this being broadcast publicly?
22 Because there is the name of the witness at the top of this piece of
23 paper. Perhaps we need to go into private session.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I am told by our registrar that it is not. All
25 right. Of course, if you make reference to anything contained in it that
1 would still expose his identity, then obviously we're going to have to
2 rethink the whole matter. And thank you for raising the issue,
3 Mr. Krgovic. It shows that you all share the concerns that the Trial
4 Chamber has.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Sir, can you please look at this part of your statement. It's
7 somewhere in the middle. It begins with the words "after that."
8 A. I'll trying to see it.
9 Q. It's at the bottom of the page. It says: "After that, we moved
10 towards the direction of the village of Susnjari where in a line-up I
11 found my father, and he was in the 284th Brigade."
12 A. I cannot find it. Just give me a moment, please.
13 Maybe someone can show me where it is. You cannot see it.
14 Q. Can we please scroll up, because you cannot see it. Now we see
16 Witness, what line is it from the bottom?
17 A. I'm going to tell you. Just one moment. It's the 9th line from
18 the bottom.
19 A. On that occasion I hid.
20 Q. No, no, after that. "Afterwards we moved on towards the village
21 of Susnjari where in a line-up of his brigade I found my father, and he
22 was in the 284th Brigade."
23 A. And that was that?
24 Q. Do you remember that?
25 A. Yes, I do remember that. I don't recall this particular number,
1 but I probably recalled it correctly then. I knew what the number was. I
2 don't know the number of the brigade now, but then I probably could
3 remember it.
4 Q. Sir, then when you were in Susnjari, that night all members of the
5 army were lined up, especially men who were above the -- who were born
6 after 1980. Do you recall that?
7 A. Well, this is an assumption. Perhaps that's how it was, but there
8 were a lot of women as well, younger -- young children also.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: Exhibit 4D00048.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm wondering the relevance of the make-up of the
12 column. It's not really something that's disputed, and we've gone over
13 this before, but ...
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I mean, I do have an idea, but, Mr. Krgovic,
15 perhaps you could explain it better. What's -- in other words, it's being
16 put to you that this is not a matter that has been actively contested by
17 the Prosecution; rather, indirectly they are acknowledging it as a fact so
18 why are you pursuing it? This is basically what -- what is being --
19 If I read you well, Mr. McCloskey, because if I'm not reading you
20 well, then please correct me.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely. It's in the indictment how many
22 people we thought were armed, the make-up of the column, you know, the --
23 all these issues as -- of course anything going to the witness's
24 credibility, but I don't see that quite.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the Prosecution
2 accepts that this was a military column, we will drop up the line of
3 questioning regarding that topic.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. I find it difficult to
5 anticipate your answer.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I can tell you, yes, it was a military
7 column. You don't see any war crimes being charged on the attack of this
8 column. And the head of this column was a military column and it did a
9 hell of an attack on 16 July and many Serb soldiers were killed. That's
10 been part of the case from the beginning. It's in the indictment. It's
11 in Mr. Butler's report. It's been fundamental to -- even what the
12 witnesses are saying, like this witness. So --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the witness was in the back of the column.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: But that's not -- we've been very clear on that.
15 That's -- that's part of our case. So I don't have any problem agreeing
16 to any of that.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anyway, Mr. Krgovic, I suggest that you bring
18 this area of questioning -- of questions to a very quick end and move to
19 something where the Prosecution and yourselves are in confrontation.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may seek another
21 clarification, and that will be my last question, is the Prosecution
22 contesting the fact that everybody in the column who was born after the
23 year 1980 was mobilised and that a general mobilisation preceded that
24 event in Srebrenica and that everybody born after the year 1980 was
25 mobilised? And this is what I want to hear from this witness.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Completely -- this is something completely different
2 than what you were asking the witness about.
3 But do you want to comment on that, Mr. McCloskey?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, we're talking mobilisation and those issues.
5 You know, I wouldn't mind talking outside the presence of the witness if
6 it will help narrow the issues of this case, because even that issue is
7 something I don't really have much dispute with.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, then if this is the area which -- in which
9 you are interested, could you please address this particular area and
10 forget about the other one. And it seems that the witness is very anxious
11 to answer your question as well.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Sir, let's me ask you --
14 A. Can I say something before you put any questions to me?
15 Q. Let me put the question first and then I'll give you an
16 opportunity to say whatever you want.
17 Can you please look at the paragraph starting with the words, and
18 this is somewhere towards the end, and the beginning of the sentence
19 is "under Susnjari."
20 A. Yes, I can see it.
21 Q. "On that night, all members of the army and able-bodied men who
22 were born after the year 1980 were lined up under Susnjari."
23 Can you see that this is what it reads?
24 A. I'm sure that they must have been able-bodied as soon as they set
25 out to walk through the forest. They could not have been disabled.
1 Q. Can you see that?
2 A. What do you mean by "able-bodied"?
3 Q. Militarily able-bodied.
4 A. So you're asking about militarily able-bodied. It says "members
5 of the army and able-bodied." It doesn't say militarily able-bodied.
6 Q. Is it correct what it says here?
7 A. I'm reading the sentence back to you. I'm not a linguist, but I
8 understand the sentence, I can interpret it, and I'm reading it back to
10 The sentence begins with "at Susnjari," then the next word is
11 illegible, and then it says "members of the army and able-bodied men." It
12 doesn't say fit for the army. It just says fit, fit to -- to walk through
13 the forest.
14 Q. But it says those who were born after the year 1980.
15 A. Nobody ever checked when they were born. If they volunteered,
16 they were lined up, but there were also women and children. But if you're
17 implying that all of these people were troops, were members of the army,
18 then you are walking on very thin ground.
19 When I mentioned the line-up, I mentioned this not as a military
20 expert because I'm not a military expert. This was done in order to form
21 the column in order to be able to go through the minefields and avoid
22 mines. I did not see any cattle being let about before the column to
23 activate the mines, but I heard that this had happened. So the line-up
24 was done in order to put the column in order, and that was the only
1 Q. So this is correct?
2 A. Yes, it is correct, and I am adding something else to that
3 sentence, to that part of the statement. It is correct and I am adding
4 some more detail to it.
5 The line-up of the army was carried out. There were a lot of
6 people. It was getting dark. I couldn't see everything. I was in that
7 part of the column, and I'm sure that there were a lot of men who were
8 born after the year 1980, but there are also younger children.
9 Q. But you were not a member of the same unit as your father.
10 A. Let me explain. There were a lot of people there. Let me
11 explain. Although I don't know whether you care about my explanation.
12 When the shelling started --
13 Q. I'm not interested in the line-up.
14 A. Still, I want to tell you about it. I am not avoiding giving you
15 an answer. I'm not protecting anybody. I'm not justifying anybody for
16 anything. I just want to give my answer.
17 There were a lot of people. The shelling started. There was
18 chaos. People wanted to enter the forest as soon as possible in order to
19 protect themselves from -- from shelling, and in that chaos I lost my
20 father. I stayed behind with the civilians. And then I caught up with my
21 father later on. The army wouldn't let people go through. They wouldn't
22 let the civilians go through. They told the civilians to stay behind.
23 But people will be people. They wanted to get hold of some soldier
24 because they thought that they would be better protected. We felt that --
25 that we were a burden upon them.
1 Q. I'm talking about the line-up in Susnjari, and I'm asking whether
2 you were together with your father in the same unit. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I don't
5 have any more questions for this witness.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Krgovic.
7 Mr. Haynes, who is lead counsel appearing for General Pandurevic
8 will now be questioning you, cross-examining you.
9 Mr. Haynes, please.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
11 Q. Good morning. I only have to ask you questions about one very
12 small issue, and it's about the trucks in which you were transported.
13 I take it from the evidence that you've given that you were
14 transported in the same trucks from Sandici to Bratunac as you were from
15 Bratunac to Petkovci and then from Petkovci away from the school.
16 A. Let me tell you and let me explain what happened. The group of
17 trucks, some five or six of them, we got on the lorries and I can tell you
18 about my lorry, that I didn't leave the lorry in Bratunac. All of us who
19 were captured and who were on that truck were taken back to the place
20 where we were captured, where we had surrendered and then onto the school.
21 When we entered the school -- actually, we got on a lorry, and I don't
22 know what kind of a lorry it was. It was dark, and I can't remember.
23 Q. But both lorries that you got on had a tarpaulin cover and were
24 able to house about a hundred people in your estimation.
25 A. The first set of lorries that took us to Bratunac and those that
1 took us back to the school, those were big lorries that could hold
2 anything between a hundred and 200 people. And for the second one, I
3 don't know how big it was. It was fully loaded, but I don't know how many
4 people there were on that second lorry.
5 Q. Thank you very much. When you were able to see the lorries, you
6 could tell that they were 20-tonne trailer trucks, couldn't you?
7 A. Yes. That was clear. Those were the largest possible lorries.
8 They didn't have separate trailers. I thought that they would be 20-tonne
9 trucks, approximately. That was my estimate.
10 Q. Thank you very much. And you could tell that the tarpaulin covers
11 were yellow in colour and that on the outside of the lorry was written the
12 phrase "Tuzla Transport."
13 A. I remember that, but I don't know whether this featured on all the
14 lorries. This I saw on the lorries when we got on them from the meadow,
15 but when we were taken for execution, these lorries were covered with
16 tarpaulins. I don't know what colour they were and whether there were any
17 inscriptions on them. I can't remember.
18 Q. Of course. Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's Madam Fauveau who is last to go.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau will be the last counsel to
22 cross-examine you. Madam Fauveau is appearing for General Miletic.
23 Madam Fauveau.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, yesterday you mentioned the school in
2 Petkovci, and you said that back at the time when you were detained in the
3 school you didn't know it was the Petkovci school. Is it fair to say,
4 indeed, that you learned that it was the Petkovci school when you arrived
5 in the ABiH-controlled territory?
6 A. I believe that I answered that yesterday. I learned subsequently.
7 I don't know when. Either from the people in the school who hailed from
8 the area or maybe later on in the village. In any case, I learnt
9 subsequently, but I can't recall all the details. In any case, when we
10 first arrived I never even knew that this was a school, let alone what its
11 name was.
12 Q. Sir, you testified in the Milosevic case. I'm going to read out
13 to you what you said in the Milosevic case regarding the time when you
14 learned that that was the Petkovci school. Transcript page 3675, 17th of
15 December. This is what you testified: [In English] "After we escaped,
16 when we reached the free territory people were saying that we were as we
17 were going through these villages. They were saying it could be this or
18 it could be that, but then when we entered this place we knew it was a
19 school. So I remember that we were talking to people and they said it
20 could be Petkovci. And afterwards I went there with the investigators, so
21 I confirmed that was it."
22 A. Maybe that was my recollection at the time. This may have been
23 what I said, but what is important is the fact that this was a school and
24 that later on I could confirm that fact. However, I don't know what the
25 relevance of the name of the school is. You can ask me anything, but I
1 can't see the relevance of the school's name.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P1729.
3 Q. Yesterday, transcript page 45, you recognise or identified this
4 building as being the school where you were detained; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's the school where we were detained, but you can see
6 only one of its parts and part of the entrance.
7 Q. Isn't it fair to say that you were not able to really see the
8 building very well, the building where you were detained when you arrived
9 on the location in July 1995?
10 A. I didn't understand your question. What did I not see?
11 Q. Is it fair to say that you were not able to see the building very
12 well from outside, I mean the building where you were detained, when you
13 arrived there in 1995?
14 A. I saw the building, but I didn't really care what it looked like
15 at the moment when we were being beaten and ill-treated. I really didn't
16 care about the appearance of the building.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown
18 Exhibit 4D53. This is the statement given to the OTP in August 1995.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One question. Let's go into private session for a
20 very short while.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 3390-3391 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can this possibly be a contested issue at this
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. You're asking me?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd object to it as irrelevant, as overly
20 time-consuming, as something that just does not move this trial ahead at
21 all. I mean --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Fauveau, let's bring this to a quick
23 end. Come on, please.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Sir, you went together with an investigator to that school, didn't
2 A. Yes. I don't remember what year it was, but I did go there.
3 Q. Is it fair to say that it was the investigator who took you there?
4 You didn't take him there. He took you there, didn't he?
5 A. Yes, one of the investigators with an UNPROFOR APC that was going
6 in front us, and yes, we did go there. It was either UNPROFOR or SFOR. I
7 don't know.
8 Q. It was an investigator from the Tribunal who showed you the
9 school; is that correct?
10 A. I'm going to tell you. I was shown plenty of photographs before
11 that so that I confirm that it wasn't any other schools. When these
12 photographs of this school were brought to me, I confirmed that it was,
13 and then he asked me whether that was that school and I said it was. I
14 went inside. I could confirm it by the way the classroom looked, by where
15 the people were throwing away objects, where they had discarded them, and
16 the blackboard. That's how I understood it.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to going else now, madam. I think we
18 have a very complete explanation of how he ended up there.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No further questions, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Is there re-examination by any chance,
21 Mr. McCloskey?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, basically this means that we're finished with
25 your testimony. Our team here at the Tribunal charged with witnesses and
1 victims will assist you as from now onwards to facilitate your return back
2 home. I can assure you that they are an excellent team, and you don't
3 have to worry about anything.
4 On our part, on behalf of the Tribunal, on behalf of my colleagues
5 here, Judges Prost, Kwon, and Stole, I would like to thank you for having
6 come to this Tribunal once more to give testimony. And on behalf of
7 everyone present here, I wish you a safe journey back home.
8 Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We're finished with his testimony but not with the
12 tendering of documents used during his testimony. So the ball is in your
13 court, Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the first item would be P02280.
15 That's the transcript of the testimony of -- of P-111 in Blagojevic. The
16 second would be P01908, a photograph of his foot. And then P01910, the
17 frontal injuries. Then P01729, the stairs that -- which access the
18 school. P01730, the stairs inside the school. P01731, the hallway of the
19 first floor of the school. P01732, the panorama of the plateau area, of
20 the dam. P01739, the overflow canal and the plateau. And then P02279,
21 the pseudonym sheet.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, any objections from any of the Defence
24 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment I would like to
1 object, Your Honours, about admitting the following exhibits: Photographs
2 1908 and 1910. I believe that they're not reliable enough in order to be
3 admitted as exhibits. First of all, because none of the photographs shows
4 the face of the person that was wounded. On the other hand, regardless of
5 the fact that this witness confirmed that these are photos of him, that it
6 is a photograph of his chest area and his foot, I believe that that is
7 insufficient, especially in the light of the fact that he was given
8 medical treatment, that there were experts appearing in this case, and
9 that such an assertion of his is not substantiated in any way.
10 I would also finally like to say that we do not know who took the
11 photograph, we don't know the time when the photograph was taken, the
12 place where it was taken, and for that reason it's not possible to
13 establish the chain of possession, how we got a hold of this photograph.
14 So for that reason I believe that at this point those two photographs
15 should not be admitted into evidence.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Is there anyone else of the Defence
18 teams that would like to join Mr. Zivanovic in this objection? All right.
19 Now, any further objections in relation to any of the other
20 documents that the Prosecution seeks to tender? I hear none.
21 Your remarks on Mr. Zivanovic's objection, Mr. McCloskey.
22 JUDGE KWON: But before that, can I ask Mr. Zivanovic why he did
23 not bring that issue during his cross-examination?
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We did not question this witness,
25 that is correct. I believe that none of these issues could have been
1 clarified through cross-examination.
2 I'm going to recall the following -- the following: The witness
3 spoke about the mechanism of how he got these wounds that are photographed
4 and, amongst other things, he said that one of those injuries is a -- was
5 caused by fragmentation ammunition. I believe that such an assertion is
6 something that cannot be affirmed or clarified in any way, and it does not
7 make this particular exhibit any more reliable than it is.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
9 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the witness said those were his
11 injuries. I think he gave us even a time frame, that it was a time after
12 his injuries. That's sufficient foundation in any -- in any court in any
13 land that I'm familiar with. And, yes, I would -- if these kinds of
14 things are going to be in issue I think they need to be discussed in
15 cross-examination so that before a witness leaves if there are issues they
16 can be brought out. But I think this is so fundamental that it's not
17 necessary, of course.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And this is basic to the adversarial system. I
19 mean, you can't have a system of ambush sort of. I mean, let's wait until
20 the Prosecution finishes with its examination-in-chief, states there are
21 no re-examination, and then all of a sudden just say, but you didn't bring
22 evidence as to who the photographer was. It's --
23 But anyway, I don't want to commit the Trial Chamber before I
24 discuss it with my colleagues. It's not my style. So we'll come back to
25 you on this in a minute, in less than a minute.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Since we are required also to motivate
3 our decisions.
4 Yes, the two documents, namely P01908 and P01910 are being
5 admitted, which basically means that your objection, Mr. Zivanovic, is not
6 being entertained. It's being rejected.
7 The basis for our decision is the following: First, questions
8 were put on examination-in-chief by the -- by Mr. McCloskey to the witness
9 on these two photos, and he testified extensively, inter alia also
10 acknowledging that they were truthfully and faithfully representative of
11 the injuries that he sustained and testified upon.
12 Second is that in the adversarial system if you contested the
13 probative value or authenticity or whatever of these documents, you should
14 have raised this in a timely fashion before or -- the testimony or during
15 the cross-examination.
16 And thirdly, what you raise is ultimately a question of probative
17 value that should be attached to these two documents and that is a matter
18 which will ultimately -- rests with the Trial Chamber and which we will
19 ultimately decide upon at a later stage. But they are being formally
20 admitted into -- into evidence, as are the rest of the -- of the documents
21 that the Prosecution wished to tender.
22 Yes, did I make a mistake somewhere.
23 JUDGE PROST: No. I just had one question, Mr. McCloskey. It's a
24 minor point. But on page 20, line 12, you referred to the panorama as
25 P1732, but both of my lists have it as P1737. I just wanted to clarify
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: So do my lists. I -- my eyes must have missed
3 that 7. It wasn't crossed.
4 JUDGE PROST: Okay. Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So it is 1737. Actually, I have the
6 documents that we had yesterday, and two versions of them. In both of
7 them it is 1737.
8 Now, Defence teams. Some of you have made use of documents, some
9 haven't. Do you wish to tender any documents?
10 Mr. Zivanovic? Nothing.
11 Mr. Meek?
12 MR. MEEK: No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic? Madam Nikolic?
14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Nikolic Defence
15 would like to tender Exhibit 354 D 50 [as interpreted]. It's the report
16 of the security service of the ABiH army, 2nd Corps.
17 That is all. Thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the report of the security services. That's
19 where the report that contains supposedly the statement of two persons.
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is there an objection on the part of the
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. This -- this is -- well,
24 beside it being a report of two people, so you have to guess which one
25 they're talking about, it's one of some, I'm not sure, somewhere 10-plus
1 reports or statements of this person, and unless there's a particular
2 reason of relevance, I don't know why we would pick one sort of ambiguous
4 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the one that was used. But anyway, I've taken
5 note of your objection. Let's discuss.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, basically for the same reasons that
8 ultimately a matter of what weight the Trial Chamber will need to give to
9 this document, which was put to the witness and he was asked questions
10 about and gave answers upon, so your objection is not sustained. It's
11 rejected. And the document, I lost trace of its number. It's 3 -- what's
12 the number?
13 THE REGISTRAR: 4D50. Will be 3D4D50.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: 3D4D50. All right. I asked you to repeat it
15 because in line 3 on page 24 it's wrong. So for -- it's 3D4D50, okay?
16 Yes. I'm coming to both Prosecution and Defence documents that
17 need to be preserved under seal, but that will be at the end.
18 Mr. Krgovic?
19 MR. KRGOVIC: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?
21 And Mr. Haynes didn't make use of any documents. So that's it.
22 Now, the following documents or the following exhibits need to be
23 kept under seal. The Defence, Nikolic Defence document, 3D4D50.
24 Prosecution Exhibit P02279. That's the pseudonym sheet. Prosecution
25 Exhibits P01908 and P01910 being the two injury photos.
1 I do not think that any of the other exhibits, Prosecution
2 exhibits, need to be under seal. Correct me if I am wrong. You may come
3 to this even later if you want, Mr. McCloskey.
4 That being done, we can move to the next witness, which is
5 Witness number 54.
6 One moment. I just want to make sure that there are no
7 preliminary matters you wish to raise in relation to this witness.
8 Mr. McCloskey?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think so. And I would just on a subject
10 that came up last time, I think it was Mr. Krgovic, on fundamental issues
11 relating to the case, I'm always willing to help clarify the charges or
12 the position of the Prosecution. So I remain open to do that, and of
13 course, as you know, I will answer the Judges' questions.
14 I've also on previous trials found at times because of the length
15 of the trials that issues come up such as the one that Mr. Stojanovic
16 brought up, I think very rightly with the Jadar River survivor. He had
17 specific pieces of evidence that he thought would contradict that witness.
18 By the time we get to that evidence, the Jadar River survivor will be
19 long -- well, hopefully not forgotten, but it will be hard to put it in
20 context. So in the past the -- the Chamber in other cases has given the
21 Defence maybe two minutes to -- to say what that evidence is and to -- and
22 to watch for it as it -- as it comes in and the Prosecution two minutes,
23 so that it puts that witness in more of a context, and -- and I have no
24 objection to that. It's -- you know, with seven accused it could get a
25 little long. But anyway, that's just a suggestion to help make more sense
1 out of these witnesses, because these witnesses are part of a bigger
2 puzzle and they're not always clear when -- when we just put them on in
3 the traditional fashion where they fit.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I personally think that's a good piece of food for
5 thought. We'll discuss it amongst ourselves during one of the breaks and
6 come back to you, but I thank you for the suggestion. And if you have any
7 off-the-cuff comments now, perhaps that would help us even more.
8 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
10 Thank you very much. I believe that our Defence team has received a
11 suggestion from Mr. McCloskey which is very important for us as a
12 guideline as to how to cross-examine future witnesses.
13 However, my impression is that what Mr. McCloskey has said today
14 is directly connected with certain parts of the indictment, and it deals
15 with the number of people who suffered, who were killed or were wounded
16 and whose suffering represents a crime, and that is in direct connection
17 with the Article 36 of the indictment. I come from a continental system,
18 and I believe that we should have a discussion with the Prosecution in
19 order to curtail our cross-examination.
20 The way I see it, people who were from the army of BiH should not
21 make part of the indictment, and counting the number of dead people would
22 lead us a long way and would lead us off the track when it comes to the
23 number of dead and wounded.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
25 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, our only observation is that before the
1 Chamber perhaps make any decisions about my learned friend's very
2 interesting and helpful suggestion, could the Defence be given a little
3 bit of time to discuss it amongst ourselves and perhaps indeed discuss it
4 with Mr. McCloskey.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's a very wise situation. As you may
6 have noticed, we didn't jump to any conclusions ourselves, and I ask for
7 your remarks in any case, because I don't think we should even start
8 discussing it unless we have heard your remarks on it.
9 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Off-the-cuff and then we'll see later.
11 Yes. Any further remarks? Yes. All right.
12 Now, as regards this witness, we're talking of Witness number 54;
13 correct? And you require the whole of today, I take it, to finish your
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's -- that's the plan. Again, we're getting a
16 little quicker with the new -- new system, and -- but I better let
17 Mr. Nicholls speak for the witness.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In the meantime, I do not have -- we do not
19 have an indication of the anticipated time required by the Defence for
20 cross-examination. Perhaps at the first break you could organise
21 yourselves and give us a first indication of the time -- time required.
22 The other thing I wanted to make sure of is that we agree on the
23 identification of the protective measures that we have already decided
24 upon. The decision refers back -- goes back to a couple of -- a day, a
25 day ago? No. Yesterday. Yes. And he has a pseudonym which will be 118,
1 118, and facial -- and facial distortion only. Pseudonym and facial
2 distortion. All right.
3 So we can admit the witness now. I'll explain to him the
5 And, Madam Usher, have you explained to him why we are starting
6 with his testimony -- I'll explain to him. Don't explain anything. I'll
7 explain it to him.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Nicholls.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: This is a 92 witness, so I'll be reading a
11 summary. There won't be a full -- unfortunately, there won't be a full
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this is why I asked Mr. McCloskey whether it's
14 correct that you require two hours and 25 minutes for -- for the direct.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: No, that's not, Your Honour. I think that was
16 probably written down if it had been a full live witness. It will not be
17 nearly that long on my part.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Great news.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-118
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Tribunal, I wish to welcome you to
25 this Tribunal. You are one other witness in this trial dealing with the
1 July 1995 Srebrenica events. You are a Prosecution witness. We know that
2 you have testified in Krstic already and, therefore, you should be
3 familiar with our procedure.
4 Madam Usher who is standing next to you is going to happened to
5 you the text of a solemn, formal -- solemn declaration which you need to
6 confirm to us; namely, that in the course of your testimony you will be
7 speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 Madam Usher, please.
9 And, Witness, could you kindly read that solemn declaration aloud,
10 and that would be your undertaking with us that you will testify the
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls will be the officer on the Prosecution
17 team that will put to you some questions. You will not be required to go
18 through the entire events as you did in Krstic. We have admitted the
19 transcript of your testimony in Krstic to be valid also for the purpose of
20 this trial.
21 A lot of time has passed under the bridges since you testified in
22 Krstic, so the first thing that will happen is that Mr. Nicholls will read
23 out a brief summary of your testimony in that case, and then he will
24 proceed with some questions to you. After that, you will be
25 cross-examined by the seven Defence teams. I will introduce each team to
1 you as we go along.
2 The Prosecution on your behalf asked that you will be granted some
3 protective measures for the duration of your testimony here. We have
4 consulted not only the Prosecution on this but also the Defence teams, and
5 all the Defence teams were very cooperative and agreed with the
6 Prosecution request that you be granted these protective measures.
7 The first of these protective measures is that in order to
8 protect, hide your identity, no one will refer to you by your name here.
9 We will refer to you by a number, and in the records of this case you are
10 going to be known as Prosecution Witness PW-118.
11 The other protective measure that the Prosecution asked for, the
12 Defence teams agreed to, and which we are granting is that no one will be
13 able to view your face from outside the walls of this courtroom. You know
14 that the proceedings are transmitted live and sometimes with a delay to
15 various TV stations. They can also be followed on computer, on the
16 internet. In order to make sure that no one can recognise you, your face
17 will not be shown. Instead, if you look at your screen in front of you
18 and if the cameras focus on you, you will immediately see how you are
19 going to it appear to the general public that will be viewing these
20 proceedings from outside.
21 And could we focus on the witness. Could we have the camera focus
22 on the witness.
23 Yes. That's how you will appear. In other words, a number of
24 coloured squares, which you can see on your screen.
25 Is that to your satisfaction, Witness?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm very satisfied. Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I can now safely hand you over to
3 Mr. Nicholls. He will first proceed with the reading out of the summary.
4 We will have a break at 10.30, Mr. Nicholls.
5 Before he starts, sir, I wish to explain to you that you were kept
6 in the room outside in the corridor here waiting for an hour and a
7 quarter, or even move, not capriciously. We were still hearing the
8 testimony of another witness, which only finished about 15 minutes ago,
9 and then we needed to deal with and finalise some procedural matters.
10 That's the reason why you were kept waiting. I'm sure you understand.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, and it's not a
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls, he's all yours.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
16 Q. Good morning, sir. Thank you very much for coming today.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: First I need to show the witness the pseudonym
18 sheet. If I could have the assistance of the usher. This is P02281,
19 which will be under seal, and if you could show it to my colleagues
21 Q. Witness, please take a look at that. Do not read what -- the name
22 on the sheet out loud, but could you please confirm that your name is
23 written there under PW-118?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Show it to Mr. Zivanovic, please. Okay. That
1 satisfies, I suppose.
2 Yes. That will be admitted, of course, in due course, and with
3 the understanding that it's one of the documents that will be kept under
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Q. Sir, I'm now going to read a brief summary of your evidence in the
7 Krstic trial.
8 The witness was born in 1964. He is a Muslim by faith. The
9 witness grew up in and around the town of Srebrenica. Before the war, he
10 worked as a machine operator at the bauxite mine company in Srebrenica.
11 On the 11th of July, 1995, the witness was at home at his house in
12 Srebrenica. He suffered from a leg injury which he had received at the
13 beginning of the war. That day, the witness decided to go to Potocari
14 with his family. The witness went to Potocari because he was afraid that
15 he would be killed by the advancing Serb army if he stayed in his house.
16 The witness believed that as he had been wounded, DutchBat would offer him
17 some protection.
18 At Potocari there was a huge crowd of people and no accommodation.
19 At around noon, the witness and his family entered the bus compound in
20 Potocari. This was a building used for maintenance of buses. The witness
21 and his family found space in a corner of the building, and he stayed in
22 the bus compound the entire day. His wife went to her parents' house
23 which was nearby to get some food. She spoke to her father while she was
24 there. This was the last time that she ever saw her father.
25 The evening in the bus compound was horrible. The people could
1 hear powerful detonations of shells which the witness believed came from
2 shelling of the town centre and the surrounding area. There was not
3 enough space in the bus compound. It was crowded. Children were crying,
4 and mothers had to try to bring in hay for the children to sleep on.
5 There was not enough food. People needed to go to the toilet. And the
6 witness couldn't sleep at all that night because he was in a sitting
8 By morning, 12th of July, there was mounting panic in the bus
9 compound. Serb soldiers entered the bus compound, and they behaved
10 decently. These soldiers checked the documents of men in the compound.
11 The witness showed his identification to the soldiers and they asked him
12 why he was there. He told them he was wounded, and they accepted this
14 Towards dusk, the people in the compound heard that men were being
15 separated. This frightened the witness. The witness decided to try to
16 hide. He and his family went and hid in one of several broken-down buses
17 which were in front of the bus compound. The witness spent the night of
18 12 July in this broken bus. He spent all night on the bus and didn't
19 leave because one could hear screams, loud screams of women and children.
20 It was beyond description. The witness could hear people screaming things
21 like, "Let me go. Don't. Please, let me be. Leave me alone." Women
22 were crying and screaming and asking for help.
23 The next morning, 13 July, at dawn the witness decided that he and
24 his family had to leave. His wife left first to get some water from a
25 house across the street. She came back and told the witness that she'd
1 seen a lot of blood on the ground floor of the house. The witness was
2 shaken, but he picked up his child and headed for the group at the exit
3 where two UN APCs were parked. At this point, the witness's mother was
4 also with him.
5 The witness found himself in an even bigger crowd of people who
6 were all trying to get out. There were women, children, and a few men.
7 It took a long time, but the witness finally got through the crowd to the
8 APCs. He was still carrying his child.
9 At the APCs, the witness saw UN soldiers holding hands to control
10 the movement of the crowd toward the buses. The witness also saw Serb
11 soldiers who had already reached the buses move away for a moment as if
12 they had been called away by someone. When the soldiers left for a
13 moment, the witness boarded a bus and hid on the floor from the Serb
14 soldiers. He hid because he was afraid that if the soldiers saw him that
15 he would be separated as they had done to other men. The bus was
16 extremely overcrowded, and finally left in the direction of Bratunac.
17 The bus went from Potocari to Bratunac, Glogova, Kravica,
18 Konjevic Polje, Nova Kasaba, Milici, Vlasenica, Tisca, and finally stopped
19 in Luke.
20 While passing through Kravica, the witness heard women and
21 children on the bus crying and shouting because of what they saw outside.
22 The witness looked outside and saw men lying to the left and right of the
23 bus who did not seem to be moving. He also saw about 50 men who appeared
24 to be captured. These prisoners had their hands behind their necks. The
25 prisoners were in civilian clothes and looked horrified. Nearby there
1 were armed Serb soldiers.
2 On the way to Luke, the bus was stopped several times and checked
3 for men. The bus driver was very decent and said there were only women
4 and children on the bus. At times the front and rear doors of the bus
5 were opened to be checked but no one saw the witness hiding.
6 At Luke the bus stopped and everyone got off. The witness was
7 still carrying his five-year-old child. The bus driver told people to
8 proceed on foot from this point. After a few steps, the witness saw
9 several Serb soldiers. One of the soldiers told the witness, "Give your
10 child to your wife and you come with us." The witness handed the child to
11 his wife. He believed that he would never see the child again, so he
12 tried to say something, but he couldn't speak. He didn't have time. The
13 Serb soldier pushed him with a rifle and said, "Move on."
14 The soldier asked a man in camouflage trouser and a
15 sweater, "Major, what do we do with him?" And the major pointed the way
16 that they should go down the road. The soldier leading the witness away
17 turned down the road and asked him, "Did you work for bauxite?" And it
18 turned out that the witness and the Serb soldier recognised each other, as
19 they had both worked for bauxite.
20 Your Honours, I have about -- I'm about a little bit more than
21 halfway through, so I don't know if you want to break now or -- I probably
22 won't finish in the next two minutes or so.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do I have the okay of the technicians and
25 interpreters to on for the next five, six, seven minutes and then we'll
1 have a 30-minute break after that?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thumbs up. Okay. All right.
4 Then carry on and finish it and we'll have the break immediately
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank everyone.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: They continued down the road as indicated by the
9 major and arrived at the Luke school. The time was approximately
10 10.00 a.m. In front of the Luke school the witness recognised a prisoner
11 with his hands tied behind his back, Abdul Kadir, a young lab technician,
12 a medical technician from the hospital in Srebrenica.
13 In his Krstic testimony the witness was shown a series of photos
14 which he recognised to be the school building where he was held captive in
15 Luke on 13 July 1995. These were P02103 at page 20, a panorama shot of
16 the school and the road. P01765, a photo of the area outside the school,
17 and I'll ask to admit that at the end today. P01766, another photo of
18 outside the school where the prisoners sat under a tree. I'll ask to
19 admit that photo as well. And P01767 a photograph of the classroom inside
20 the school where the prisoner was held and I'll ask to admit that.
21 Immediately after arriving at the school the witness's hands were
22 tied behind his back with shoelaces. There was one soldier there who only
23 answered a military telephone set up in the stairway. This soldier was
24 Zeljko by the other soldiers, and he would speak on the phone and say,
25 "Yes, sir, I'll do that. I'll tell them."
1 The witness sat for most of the day outside the school with Abdul
2 Kadir. Throughout the day the witness observed prisoners continuously
3 being brought to the school. He could hear trucks and buses coming and
4 going as the number of prisoners increased. Eventually, there were 22
5 prisoners being held in front of the Luke school. Serb soldiers came and
6 went during this time. Many of them threatened the prisoners but the
7 prisoners were not beaten.
8 A Serb soldier Stanimir asked the witness if he knew a Serb
9 soldier named Spomenko Garic, who also worked at bauxite. The witness
10 replied that he did know Garic from work. Stanimir told the witness that
11 Garic was the commander of a special intervention unit that was currently
12 in the field in Kravica and said that Garic would probably be by the
13 school later in the evening.
14 Later towards the evening the Serb soldiers brought a very pretty
15 Muslim girl of about 17 to the school to try to identify some of the
16 prisoners. The soldiers called her Turkish Girl, told her she was pretty,
17 and took her into the school. Later, the witness heard a female screaming
18 in the school, "Let me go. Don't touch me."
19 That night at about 9.00 p.m. approximately, the 22 prisoners were
20 brought into the school. As they were brought into the school, they were
21 searched and robbed of their money and valuables by the Serb soldiers. In
22 a classroom in the school, the prisoners were bound with telephone wire.
23 Their hands were tied behind their backs. The prisoners were ordered to
24 sit on the floor in a corner of the classroom and were guarded by a
25 soldier with a rifle.
1 Soon Spomenko Garic arrived. He asked, "Who is from bauxite
2 here?" The witness replied, and Garic asked the witness what he was doing
3 there. The witness replied that he had been wounded, that he had gone to
4 Potocari, and that he had been taken into custody and brought to the
5 school. Garic replied, "Well, this war hasn't been very good to you or
6 us, but what can we do? Right. Very well. See you tomorrow." He gave
7 the witness a friendly pat on the soldier and left. Garic was dressed in
8 coveralls and had a handkerchief tied around his head.
9 Immediately after he left Serb troops came into the classroom.
10 They were dressed in a similar fashion to Garic. The guard asked them,
11 "How did you fare in Kravica?" And they replied, "Great. We've finish
12 with the balijas." These soldiers then began to question and beat the
14 Beatings were brutal. With each question, for example, how many
15 Serbs did you kill, a blow would fall. Prisoners with beaten on their
16 heads with rifles. They were kicked in the chest. An old man being
17 beaten dropped his metal cane and a soldier picked it up and beat him with
18 it. One of the soldiers took a flag which had been taken from mosque and
19 began to beat the witness and other prisoners with the metal rod of the
20 flag. He asked questions about the flag and then beat the prisoners
21 whatever their answer may be.
22 The witness was scarred above his right eye and his face was
23 covered with blood. He was kicked to the floor. The beatings lasted
24 about half an hour. The prisoners were covered in blood. The accents of
25 the soldiers inflicting the beatings was a normal accent like that of the
1 people of Srebrenica.
2 The soldiers conducting the beatings left and a new group of five
3 or six soldiers entered the building. The prisoners were ordered to stand
4 against the wall. Some of them could not stand. The prisoners were then
5 ordered out of the school and into a truck. There was a platform set up
6 on the stairs outside the school which led into the bed of the truck. A
7 soldier at the stairs told the prisoners that they were going to a
8 military prison and that it would be quite nice there. This soldier
9 said, "Don't be afraid. Everything will be all right."
10 The prisoners were ordered to sit on the right-hand bench of the
11 truck and were told to keep the other bench free. Two soldiers loaded the
12 beaten prisoners who could not walk into the bed of the truck. They threw
13 the prisoners into the back of the truck and piled them in a heap. There
14 was no tarpaulin on the truck. Four soldiers then took the free
15 right-hand bench and three got into the cab of the truck.
16 The truck took the road towards Vlasenica. Just at the entry of
17 the town of Vlasenica on a lit street the truck turned left onto a dirt
18 road. At some point the truck reached a small stream or brook and stopped
19 briefly. A Serb soldier in the bed of the truck banged with his fist on
20 the roof of the cab and above the driver and said, "Not here. Take them
21 up there where they took the people before." He said it very loudly and
22 it was quite clear. The driver understood him and the truck proceeded.
23 During the journey, the witness had been trying to loosen the
24 telephone wire binding his hands by working it against a screw attached to
25 the frame of the truck. He succeeded in loosening it, although he could
1 not undo the knot.
2 The truck stopped as it was going up a hill. There was a pasture
3 and a partly demolished house there. The truck stopped near the house and
4 turned off its engine although the lights remained on. The four soldiers
5 got off the back of the truck. The three soldiers got out of the cabin.
6 The three soldiers from the cabin were opposite from where the witness was
7 sitting on the other side of the truck.
8 One of the four soldiers from the back of the truck went over to
9 front where the three soldiers from the cab were standing. The three
10 remaining soldiers at the back of the truck immediately starting killing
11 the prisoners. They threw the prisoners off the back of the truck and
12 began shooting them.
13 Two men tried to escape. They jumped off the truck and ran about
14 20 metres before they were shot down. The witness managed to free one of
15 his hands. He jumped off the truck, putting the truck between himself and
16 the soldiers and he ran. The soldiers fired at him. It was night-time
17 and the soldiers had to fire over the truck. The witness managed to get
18 to the edge of the forest, and he fell and rolled down a steep slope and
19 reached a brook at the bottom. He could still hear gun-fire. The witness
20 remained there until dawn the next day.
21 At dawn the witness set out. After seven days, approximately, he
22 met some fellow Muslims who were also trying to escape. After a great
23 deal of intense hunger, hardship, and a Serb army ambush, the witness
24 manned to reach the free territory on 27 July 1995.
25 That concludes my summary.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls, and I thank all the staff
2 for their patience and cooperation.
3 We'll have a 30-minute break starting from now. Thank you.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.13 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: With some luck, Witness, we may be able to finish
7 with your testimony today.
8 Mr. Nicholls, do you have any further questions or, rather, do you
9 have questions for your witness.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: I do have questions on a few topics, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead then.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Any time you need to go into private session, please
14 let us know.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
16 Q. Sir, you spent your whole life in the Srebrenica area up to 1995
17 except for compulsory JNA service in Kosovo in 1984; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. At the beginning of the war, were you ever in a village guard
21 A. Yes. I have to clarify a little bit here. When the war came to
22 Srebrenica, the people of Srebrenica organised in such a way that they
23 protected their villages. Since I could not live in my house at the
24 beginning of the war, my house was among Serb houses. (redacted)
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: May I request a redaction of the school friend's
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Usher -- registrar.
7 MR. NICHOLLS:
8 Q. What period --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's line 7, I suggest, to line 10.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest -- I suppose we will need to draw -- once
12 this has happened, we need to draw the witness's attention.
13 Witness, look at me. It often happens that in spite of every
14 effort we make to protect your identity, to hide it, then mistakes are
15 made. You made the first one today by mentioning the name of someone, and
16 that in itself could lead to other people being able to identify you. So
17 be careful when you are testifying not to mention names or places which
18 are so intimately connected or related to you that anyone who would be
19 following the proceedings would be in a position to identify your -- you
20 as a witness today. All right?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for that instruction, Your
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
24 Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Nicholls, please.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
1 Q. Could you tell me what period of time approximately you were a
2 village guard?
3 A. From the 17th of April until I was wounded on the 14th of May,
4 1992. Perhaps it's not that precise time period, but it's more or less
5 that time.
6 Q. And can you describe what happened to you on the 14th of May,
7 1992, how you were injured, and what the nature of the injury was.
8 A. On the 14th of May, 1992, that evening I was on guard duty.
9 During the morning I was sitting in front of my school friend's house when
10 that place was shelled. A shell that fell in the immediate vicinity
11 wounded me and another guy and it killed one woman.
12 Q. Thank you. From 17th of April, 1992, until you were injured, did
13 you actually take part in any combat?
14 A. No. At the time, the Serbs were controlling the town. People who
15 lived in the Muslim villages just organised guard shifts around their
16 villages. There were no military conflicts at that time.
17 Q. Now, after you were injured in May 1992, and the fall of
18 Srebrenica in July 1995, did you take part in any combat during that
19 period of time?
20 A. No, I didn't participate in it afterwards. My healing process was
21 very specific. It took a while. I spent a long time using two crutches
22 in order to move around.
23 I have to also add that the hospital wasn't adequate. There were
24 no medicines. In the beginning we had whatever people had on them. So
25 you could borrow some medicines, but later on there were no medicines.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I would like one clarification from
3 Mr. Nicholls, if possible. Here I'm reading the transcript that at the
4 time the Serbs were controlling the town. I would like to know whether
5 he's referring to Srebrenica, to Bratunac, what specific.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In answering that, just decide for yourself
7 whether we need to go into private session or not.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: I would request private session, Your Honour,
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought so.
11 So let's go to private session for a while, please.
12 And thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.
13 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
4 MR. NICHOLLS:
5 Q. A moment ago you referred to the hospital being inadequate. Are
6 you referring to the hospital in Srebrenica?
7 A. Yes. Just as I said before. Serb soldiers or Serbs were looting
8 everything they could get their hands on in Srebrenica, including the
9 hospital. Many items from the hospital, medicines, were looted and taken
10 in an unknown direction out of Srebrenica. The hospital was not
12 After a while, after two or three months, a military hospital or a
13 field hospital was set up in Srebrenica headed by Dr. Nijaz.
14 Q. Okay. Now, during the time period before the fall of Srebrenica,
15 after the start of the war, were you aware of the population of Srebrenica
16 increasing as people came into Srebrenica from surrounding villages?
17 A. Yes, that is correct. The number of people in Srebrenica
18 increased on a daily basis because Serbs or Serb soldiers were attacking
19 Muslim settlements, and the Muslim population was expelled from
20 neighbouring villages around Srebrenica and were being pushed into the
21 town of Srebrenica itself.
22 Later, the Muslim people were in complete control of the town of
23 Srebrenica after an action that took place in Potocari when they
24 definitely pushed back Serbian soldiers in an ambush that was set up in
1 Q. Okay. Thank you. I want you to very briefly please describe the
2 living conditions in Srebrenica, 1993, 1994, 1995, in terms of food,
3 you've already spoken about medicine, but water and housing space for
4 these -- for the population as it increased.
5 A. It was terrible in Srebrenica in terms of food, clothing,
6 footwear. Medical supplies were most needed, because from day to day the
7 number of wounded people was ever-greater, and they needed medical
8 supplies, medicines and other equipment, and it wasn't available. People
9 had to actively look for food. There was no food. And if you wish, I can
10 describe that separately.
11 All in all, the overall situation was terrible. There was no
12 water. Electricity was cut off, telephone lines also. There was no food.
13 In one word, you could describe it as horrific.
14 Q. You've already told us about how you were injured by shelling.
15 Briefly can you tell me how the shelling of Srebrenica affected life for
16 the inhabitants, how it affected their psychological state.
17 A. The daily shelling of the town made life more difficult for the
18 people who were pushed into the town and forced to use all available
19 accommodation for their families. There were often dead people lying in
20 the streets because of the shelling. We all knew, those of us who lived
21 in Srebrenica, that up to 1.000 shells fell every day in such a small
22 town. Serb artillery was occupying the elevations around the town, so it
23 was very simple to hit the targets that they wanted to hit.
24 I must mention once again Dr. -- Dr. Nijaz whom I mentioned
25 before. He was hit by an air -- by a bomb dropped from the air.
1 Actually, he was killed by a bomb that was dropped from the air. When I
2 mention aerial bombardment, this was also used against the suffering
3 population of Srebrenica.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour. Your Honour, could the
6 witness specify which period he means.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. A very legitimate question.
8 MR. NICHOLLS:
9 Q. Could you --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Which period of time are you specifically referring
11 to now?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was in early 1993 and in late
13 1992. I believe that that was a very, very difficult period, and so what
14 I'm talking about now relates to that period.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] ... that it's better if
16 we move nearer to 1995.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. Your Honour.
18 Q. I want to talk to you now about something you testified to in
19 Krstic, which is the separations at Potocari. And you previously have
20 described the separation of men you saw as you waited to try to board the
21 bus. Do you remember making a sketch of that scene during your interview
22 with the OTP in January 1996?
23 A. Yes, I do. It still lingers in my memory what I could see on that
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go into private session while I ask
1 for P02282 to be --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's go into private session --
3 MR. NICHOLLS: -- placed in e-court.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- for a short while, please.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 3424-3425 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Nicholls.
7 MR. NICHOLLS:
8 Q. You were able to get on the bus in Potocari with your wife, your
9 mother, and your daughter. Did your brother go with you on the bus? Was
10 he able to get on any bus with you?
11 A. No. My brother went together with other people across the forest.
12 Q. When was the last time you saw your brother?
13 A. I saw him before the fall of Srebrenica. Maybe a few days before
14 that. I can't remember exactly. But in any case, it was immediately
15 before the fall of Srebrenica.
16 Q. One question about when you got off the bus in Luke with your
17 family. Were you able to see if what happened with the bus that you had
18 been on? Did it stay there? Did it go away? What did the bus do?
19 A. The bus turned and went back in the same direction. I suppose
20 that it went to pick up the next group of people.
21 Q. I'd now like to show the witness, on another topic, sir, 02103,
22 page 21. That's a photo. It does not need to be in private session.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Unfortunately, that's not in colour. We can show
24 the witness the photo in colour, which I would refer if that's acceptable
25 to the Chamber. It's the same photo.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: The Chamber would prefer it.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
3 Q. Sir, this is a photo which I showed you when we met the other day;
4 isn't that right?
5 A. Yes, that's right. That is the photo that I have already seen.
6 Q. Please just tell me -- well, do you recognise the place in the
8 A. Yes, I do. This is the school where people were brought to.
9 Actually, they were brought to the area in front of the school, and later
10 on they were taken into the school.
11 There were two trees here, one of them closer to the school and
12 the other one a bit further from the school, and under that latter I found
13 the first person who had been brought in, and I sat down close to him.
14 And later on, all the people were sitting under that tree, and that was
15 during the day. When the evening came, they were taken into the school.
16 Q. Thank you. And I think that's clear, you're referring to the tree
17 in the foreground on the right-hand side of the photo.
18 A. Yes. Yes. That's the tree.
19 Q. And just to be absolutely clear, this is the same school that you
20 testified about in Krstic, the one I recounted in the summary earlier
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go into private session now, please.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while, please.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 3428-3429 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic who is defending Colonel Popovic
3 will now cross-examine you.
4 Go ahead.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. You were wounded in 1992; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, I was wounded in 1992 on the 14th of May.
10 Q. After that, up to July 1995 were you ever called up to join the
12 A. Yes, I was, but my answer was that I could not participate in
13 fighting, and this was verified by them when they sent me for a medical
15 Q. In other words, your health condition was such that you could not,
16 for that reason, join the army.
17 A. That's correct. I was wounded in my right lower leg, and I still
18 have a 1 centimetre by 1.5 centimetre shrapnel in my leg. We have a photo
19 of that, and if you wish it can be shown to you.
20 Q. Were you also called to join the TO since you were not capable of
21 joining the army?
22 A. No, nobody called me into the TO or the civilian protection.
23 Q. What about the work obligation? Did you need to do that?
24 A. No, I didn't. Because I was proclaimed unfit for any such
1 Q. You remember --
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go into private
3 session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 3432-3440 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. We are in open session.
3 And I suppose you need to repeat your question, because I interrupted you
4 the way I did.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will repeat my question.
6 Q. You said that immediately when you jumped off the truck they
7 immediately opened fire at you.
8 A. Yes, that is what I said. That is what I said, because I could
9 hear firing. When they were executing people, they were using short
10 bursts of fire. The minute I jumped off the truck, somebody from the left
11 side of the truck or something -- I heard somebody say, "He's escaping,
12 fuck his balija mother." And then there was firing. So all I could hear
13 was that there was firing in my -- there was firing in my direction. They
14 wanted to hit me. This is normal.
15 Q. Can you please tell me whether it's normal also that they would
16 chase after you?
17 A. I said in my previous sentence that I don't know that -- whether
18 they ran around the truck and started to run after me in the direction
19 that I was going in. Probably they did, because I hear that the bursts of
20 fire were quite close to me. I described in another situation in more
21 detail what I believed probably could have happened.
22 When I reached the actual wood, the slope was even more steep, so
23 I had to roll down the -- on the ground.
24 Q. You were quite tired. How were you able to then run and roll down
25 the slope?
1 A. Yes, that is a good question, but when a person is in such a
2 life-threatening situation, then it is very difficult, but things
3 inexplicably happen and you just find yourself able to do things that you
4 normally wouldn't be able to do.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: He's given you his answer. But what is worrying me
6 is the speed again. I can -- I am really feeling sorry for the
7 interpreters. It's both of you, and I'm not distinguishing between one or
8 the other today. But you're simply not allowing -- not even a split
9 second. He's anticipating your questions. You are questioning him again
10 before he's even answered fully. It can't go on like this.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation], Your Honours, I apologise. I
12 made a mistake, I'm not wearing headphones. I should have done that in
13 this case. But I have completed my cross-examination of this witness in
14 any case, so I have no further questions.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. I understand the Beara Defence team
16 had required 20 minutes.
17 Yes, Mr. Meek.
18 MR. MEEK: That's correct, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek is defending, together with Mr. Ostojic,
20 Colonel Beara in this case, and he's going to cross-examine you next.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:
22 Q. Good morning, Witness. How are you?
23 A. Good day. How are you? Are you doing all right?
24 Q. I'm doing fine. I just have a few questions, and I'd just ask
25 you, if you could, listen to them and answer as succinctly as you can so
1 we can move on and get done with this ordeal. Okay?
2 A. Yes. I agree. Please go ahead. Put your question.
3 Q. Witness, am I correct that the late morning of the 12th of July
4 that the soldiers who asked you for your identification treated you
5 decently and correctly?
6 A. When I said correctly, properly, there was no beating up, they
7 didn't provoke us, the soldiers who were walking around in the usual way,
8 between women and children, and when they came up to a man they would ask
9 for his identification, what his name was, can he give them their correct
10 name. Then they would also ask about the participation of or in the army
11 in the latest events in Srebrenica.
12 This is what happened when they came up to me. They asked me what
13 my name was, did I have a personal ID card.
14 Q. And, Witness, you told these soldiers on the 12th of July that you
15 had been wounded. Did they ask you first why you were there, correct,
17 A. Yes, I told them --
18 Q. You're anticipating my questions and I'm anticipating your
20 You told them that you had been wounded and they said fine;
22 A. They moved on to the next person and they just continued on.
23 Q. You already anticipated one of my questions. They didn't harm
24 you. They didn't mistreat you. And as soon as they had completed their
25 questioning you were left alone. Correct?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. These were -- these were military police officers; correct?
3 A. I assume that it was a group of soldiers who had been given a
4 special assignment. That is my opinion. To go inside, identify people,
5 perhaps. And they were different from the local soldiers by their accent.
6 In Bosnia, Serbia, there are different accents, and we can, when we listen
7 to one another, determine that a person is from such-and-such an area. I,
8 at that point, was able to see that they were from a different area.
9 Q. And again, I want to -- I don't want to put it on the e-court, but
10 you gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor here on 24 January
11 1996. Do you recall that statement?
12 In that statement, you just stated that it was a special unit of
13 the military police of the Chetnik forces in the area; correct? Now --
14 A. These were just my assumptions. As I said, they were different
15 from the regular soldiers, and I asserted that there were such groups in
16 the army. There were special police units or special purpose units. This
17 was the basis for my assumption.
18 Q. Can you just roughly tell me how large of a group these military
19 police -- how large a group was it?
20 A. What I saw was that they moved in twos and threes, in two and
21 three groups that I was able to see, in the facility where I was. It's
22 possible that there were more of them outside. I couldn't see the entire
23 area. There were a lot of people there.
24 Q. So would it be fair to say that you saw 10 to 12, 15 to 20 of
25 these soldiers, military police, in different groups? That's what I'm
1 trying to get at.
2 A. It's correct that two people came up to me. Further off, I could
3 see a group of three people who were looking at people and checking their
4 IDs, IDs of two other men. There were groups of two or three of these
5 men, and they were wandering around amongst the people, speaking to them,
6 and then they left in a regular way.
7 Q. Thank you. And I take it that the two military police officers
8 who questioned you had an accent which you believed came from Montenegro;
10 A. Yes, yes. That is correct. That was my conclusion. The way they
11 spoke made me think that they spoke in a Montenegrin accent.
12 Q. Now, the other members of the military police who you saw among
13 the crowd asking for ID, you didn't hear them speak, did you, sir?
14 A. No, I didn't hear them. All I saw is was that they wore the same
15 uniforms as these other people.
16 And when we're talking about the uniform, they were different from
17 the regular Serb army uniforms. They seemed to be of better quality.
18 They were finer than the regular Serb army uniforms.
19 Q. And of the two military police officers who questioned you and
20 asked for your identity, did both of them have this accent or only one?
21 A. One of them talked to me and the other one didn't speak to me at
23 Q. Now, you mentioned in your testimony which you gave in a previous
24 proceeding here, Witness, about an individual by the name of --
25 MR. MEEK: Maybe we should go into closed session.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Meek.
2 Let's go into private session for a while, please.
3 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 MR. MEEK:
4 Q. Would you like me to repeat the question?
5 A. There is no need. It's a person who was taken away. It's true
6 that later I have found out from the women who were there that they had
7 mentioned his name. I'm not going to mention his name. He was taken
8 away. He was taken off in an unknown direction.
9 When I reached the free territory, for a while there was nothing
10 that was known about him. Later he was exchanged, probably interrogated.
11 People probably know what happened with him in the course of his
13 Q. Thank you. Witness, my final question is: You never saw this
14 group of military police officers after the 12th, that day in Potocari.
15 Is that correct, sir?
16 A. No, I didn't meet people in such uniforms, no.
17 MR. MEEK: Thank you very much. I have no further questions, Your
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think, Usher, you can escort the
20 witness out.
21 In the meantime, there are two very brief matters I'd like to
22 refer you to.
23 The first one, Mr. McCloskey, I am referring you to the matter
24 relating to your motion and then responses of a second motion relating to
25 a request to amend the witness list and 65 ter witness list and 65 ter
1 exhibit list.
2 Yes, exactly. He knows exactly what I'm talking about.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We have completed our deliberations on this matter,
5 and in relation to your request for the addition of approximately 230
6 exhibits, we have come to the conclusion that although you seemingly
7 provide in your first motion detailed justification for adding
8 approximately 230 exhibits to your Prosecution list; however, you do not
9 provide similar explanation with respect to the additional 31 exhibits
10 which you also seek to the Prosecution exhibit list, and you do not
11 identify, as a result, which of the 261 exhibits listed in Annex B
12 attached to the first motion are those approximately, using your own
13 words, approximately 230 exhibits.
14 In other words, we are not in a position to identify those 31 --
15 31 exhibits. I think you need to look into this and thus it will help us
16 avoiding having to give two decisions instead of one. If you can look
17 into this as soon as possible, we would be in a position to hand down our
18 decision immediately after.
19 So I think you understand what I mean. I mean, it's -- you seek
20 to admit 261, but it's not clear exactly which are the 230 and which are
21 the 31, and that we need to know.
22 The other thing is this: Again yesterday you filed another motion
23 for protective measures, referring to witnesses due to give evidence in
24 the course of this month we've just started today. One of these
25 witnesses, namely the one with 65 ter number 40, is, according to my
1 calculations, due to start to testify probably early next week. So it
2 will be helpful if at least in relation to this witness the Defence teams
3 could give us their position possibly by tomorrow, so that would enable us
4 to decide the matter by Friday. And if that would be the case, then you
5 can proceed with bringing the witness on -- as soon as possible next week.
6 All right?
7 So I trust that one of you will deal -- deal with this and feed us
9 All right. We'll have a 30-minute break.
10 Mr. Lazarevic, I think that you will be taking the witness for
11 cross-examination, and then I think it's you. Can you possibly see if
12 it's possible for both of you to finish in 45 minutes? Of course we are
13 not forcing you to, but try.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, who is representing --
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to say to you that I won't
19 be able to finish in 45 minutes. It's Mr. Lazarevic who will take on from
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, So, Mr. Lazarevic, please start your
23 Mr. Lazarevic is representing accused Borovcanin in this case.
24 Go ahead.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. Let us just clarify one mistake. Yesterday from our learned
4 friend Nicholls, who represents the Prosecution here, we received the
5 so-called supplemental information sheet with some new information
6 informing the Defence teams of what he had learned during your proofing,
7 and in that document we found a sentence which I would like to clarify
8 with you. It says here, and I shall read it in English, it will be
9 translated to you: [In English] "After reaching Muslim-held territory,
10 the witness served in the 286th Brigade in traffic administration. He did
11 not take part in combat."
12 [Interpretation] In order to speed things up, I'm going to put
13 simple questions to you to which you can answer by yes or no. First of
14 all, did you say this to Mr. Nicholls during your proofing?
15 A. I have to explain one thing. It is correct that I said this. The
16 sentence is correct, but I have to explain why I found myself in that unit
17 that had been set up in the place called Stupari. This was for my on
18 subsistence. I was not a member of any unit. I did not receive any money
19 or any bare essentials. My family had to live on something.
20 When I arrived in that unit, I explained my situation. I told
21 them I was awaiting surgery, that I could not perform any tasks in the
22 unit, but they told me that my profession entitled me to performing some
23 tasks and doing some jobs that are tied to the office, that were office
24 work, and that's how I accepted the position. But I stayed there for a
25 very brief time. Very soon after that I underwent surgery in the hospital
1 for orthopaedic surgery in Tuzla.
2 Q. Okay. I understand your reasons. I understand everything you
3 have just said. But can you please specify the period this happened when
4 you were a member of the 286th Brigade?
5 A. It was the 286th Brigade, yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... because we're
7 doing exactly what we had previously.
8 Witness, you -- actually, you started. Mr. Lazarevic, he hadn't
9 even finished his answer. You already had started your next question.
10 You were already continuing to talk while Mr. Lazarevic was still
11 putting a new question. We can't go on like this.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. I apologise. I shall
13 wait. I just wanted to economise on time but of course it's better to
14 wait for the interpreters.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Maybe it would be good, sir, that you look at the screen in front
17 of you. You will see the transcript of the words that are being said, and
18 when you see the line has stopped moving, you will know when to start
20 I would like to deal with a person whom you mentioned during your
21 testimony in answering my learned friend Meek's question, and you
22 mentioned that person in the Krstic case as well?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But that was in private session to my
24 recollection as well.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: No. I believe that is not the person I at the
1 time intend to refer to.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then go ahead.
17 (redacted)and we move to private session, please, immediately.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 3453-3456 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Lazarevic.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, what is the meaning of the word "sehid"? Can you explain
19 to the Trial Chamber?
20 A. This is a very difficult question for me. I really don't know the
21 meaning of that word.
22 Q. However, you must have heard that word because you hail from
23 Srebrenica, from Bosnia. I'm sure you must have heard the word "sehid"
24 used many times.
25 A. Yes, I heard it, I read it. But I can't explain what it means.
1 Q. If I were to put it to you that "sehid" is most commonly used in
2 terms of a fighter who died for the Muslim religion, would you say agree
3 with that definition of "sehid"?
4 A. You are making me say something that I don't know. I've already
5 told you, I don't know the meaning of the word.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] ... and if I can
7 please -- again, you are moving a little bit too fast and not allowing
8 for a pause between question and answer.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Let's try and make an effort to avoid any more warnings from the
11 Trial Chamber. You make a pause and I'll make a pause. Let's both of us
12 be patient.
13 Can we go back to Potocari and the 12th of July. On page 1253 of
14 the Krstic transcript, in pages [as interpreted] 9 and 10, you stated
15 about the 12th of July: "[In English] From those women and men who wanted
16 to go out, to leave on that 20th [sic], we heard that men were being
18 [Interpretation] Can you please answer by saying yes or no? Does
19 the Krstic transcript reflect what you said at the time?
20 A. I am not sure that I understand you and I didn't understand the
21 quote. Can you repeat the quote?
22 Q. You spoke about what you heard about the separation of men from
23 women on the 12th of July in Potocari. And in English the sentence reads
24 as follows: "[In English] Those women and men who wanted to go out to
25 leave on that 20th [sic], we heard that men were being separated."
1 I'm sorry, I said 12th. I apologise. Instead of 20th, of course.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me -- one moment. And this is line --
3 JUDGE PROST: It says 12th, actually.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: On page 1253. One moment. Let me just make sure
5 that isolated from the rest of the text.
6 Yes. Go ahead. I think you need to read the whole answer. Let
7 me help you a little bit.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Maybe it would be --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, look at me. You remember I referred
10 earlier on to your testimony in Krstic. We have it all here, and I'm
11 going to read a very short part on which Mr. Lazarevic would like to
12 question you.
13 In Krstic, you were asked the following question: "How long did
14 you stay inside the bus compound on July the 12th?"
15 And according to the transcript, you answered as
16 follows: "Towards the dusk, in late afternoon, from those women and men
17 who wanted to go out, to leave on that 12th, we heard that men were being
18 separated, and that frightened me, so that naturally I tried to find some
19 safety, to find a safer place where I wouldn't be noticed."
20 This is the extract from your testimony that Mr. Lazarevic is
21 interested in.
22 So now you can proceed with your question, Mr. Lazarevic.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Since you have now been presented with that section of the
25 transcript, is what you stated then absolutely correct and accurate?
1 A. Yes, it's absolutely correct and accurate. This was at the time I
2 was in the transportation facility. They maintained those buses. I
3 wasn't able to see over there, but I heard it. That's why I got scared,
4 and I had to hide in a more secure place.
5 Q. So you personally did not see this on the 12th, but you heard
6 about it; is that correct?
7 A. Actually, I heard from the people that those men were being
8 separated and that -- and later I had the opportunity to see that, but
9 this was that first contact when I heard of it. Later I had the
10 opportunity to see how those groups of Serbian soldiers were entering
11 amongst the people. And again that evening I heard moaning and screams of
12 those people whom they were taking away.
13 Q. I asked you, I think, I put a very clear question to you. We're
14 talking about the 12th. On the 12th, did you see for yourself this or did
15 you find that out from others? We're talking about the 12th.
16 A. On the 12th, I was not able to see that because I was inside the
18 Q. Thank you very much. And the first time you saw that was on
19 the 13th when you also approached the two Dutch combat vehicles?
20 A. Yes, that is correct. You could see it from that location. You
21 could see them separating people to the left, and all of those who were in
22 front of me were separated to the left towards that house which I already
24 Q. You told us that on the 12th of July you were in what we called
25 that facility here as the bus maintenance depot. You were inside this bus
1 maintenance depot. The entire depot and the area in front of it were full
2 of refugees. Is that an exact description of that place where you were on
3 the 12th?
4 A. Yes, that is correct. It was overbooked. People were in front.
5 There were many people there.
6 Q. And since there was a site visit made by the Trial Chamber so that
7 they could familiarise themselves with the area, and we also toured the
8 area, would you be able to say whether the depot facility where you were
9 was about 150 metres away from the road? There is an area of about 150
10 metres between the depot and the road. Would that be accurate?
11 A. I couldn't give you an exact distance. I really wouldn't be able
12 to tell you what that was.
13 Q. Well, all right. Thank you. It's not really that essential.
14 Since you were inside the depot and there were refugees between
15 you and the road, you were unable to see on the 12th what was going on up
16 on the road where the buses were; is that correct?
17 A. I was inside the building. I already explained that I wasn't able
18 to see from inside the building. Probably even if I were in front of the
19 building it would have been hard to see because of the mass of people that
20 was there.
21 Q. I would now like for us to look at the statement that you gave to
22 the Prosecutors of this Tribunal on the 24th of January, 1996. This is
23 Exhibit 5D93.
24 Do you recall in January 1996 speaking with representatives of the
25 Prosecutor's office of this Tribunal?
1 A. Yes, I remember that.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: We have some reason to be worried about the
3 identity of the witness. Perhaps -- I don't know whether this is
4 broadcasted -- no, it's not. Okay then.
5 Q. [Interpretation] When you talked about the Prosecutors of
6 The Hague Tribunal, I assume that they treated you professionally and they
7 recorded your words correctly and exactly. Is that right?
8 A. Yes, I think it is.
9 Q. And you had the opportunity to see your statement during the
10 proofing with Mr. Nicholls and probably earlier, in the Krstic case.
11 A. Yes, that is right.
12 Q. If you could now look at page 3. This is the paragraph -- the
13 first paragraph on the B/C/S version, or page 2, last paragraph of the
14 English version.
15 Here you're talking about the 12th of July. Because in the third
16 paragraph you begin: "On Thursday of the 14th of July at dawn." Let's
17 just be specific about the time that you are talking about. But in the
18 first paragraph you said: "I noticed that the Chetniks were separating
19 the men from their families. That's why I tried to find a better place to
21 So it -- based on this statement, it can be concluded that you saw
22 that yourself?
23 A. No. "Noticed" can also mean to hear. Why not?
24 Q. Well, "to notice," first of all --
25 A. I apologise.
1 Q. So that we don't go into a discussion about it, "to notice" means
2 to notice personally. "To hear" means to feel with your sense of hearing?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic, please move to the next question. I
4 think he has explained. He doesn't agree with you on the meaning
5 of "noticed." He's given you another explanation.
6 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: And I would just point out, if I'm at the same
8 place where I think my friend is, if it could be read in English, which is
9 the official first version, the B/C/S is a translation, it's different,
10 which might help.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Which paragraph -- what paragraph is it?
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Unless I'm lost, I thought we were on the top of
13 page 3 in the English.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So we have to move another page.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: "As I noticed" in English version. It's last
16 paragraph of page 2.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's last paragraph of page 2, then we have to go
18 back one page.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: But he was talking about the top of page 3, Your
21 JUDGE AGIUS: But anyway, let's -- let's close this. He has
22 explained what he understands by that.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Continuing with your statement, speaking about the 13th of July,
25 when you testified in the Krstic case, and when you testified about the
1 events of the 13th of July and about how you decided to leave, you said on
2 page 1255 of the Krstic transcript, line 23, 24, you said: "[In English]
3 I simply could not stand it any longer."
4 [Interpretation] These were the words you used at the time. And
5 then to continue on the next page, 1256, lines 4 to 8, you also
6 said: "[In English] I found myself in an even bigger crowd of people
7 because everybody was trying to get out. When I say 'people,' I mean both
8 women and children and a few men were still in the same crowd still. I
9 managed to, after quite a long period of time, that is after an hour or
10 perhaps even more, I somehow managed to make my way to those APCs."
11 [Interpretation] I was quoting the transcript from the Krstic
12 case, which reflects in your best recollection the sense that you had and
13 the general sense of the feeling of the people who happened to be there
14 about the arrival of the buses. Do you agree with what you said, and do
15 you abide by it?
16 A. It's very nicely explained, and it's quite precisely explained
17 that I couldn't stand it anymore in that bus that happened to be there,
18 and I decided to leave, and then I found myself in an even closer mass and
19 a denser crowd of people. Everybody wanted to leave. They all wanted to
20 leave at any price, but it was impossible to leave so fast.
21 Q. All right. That is just my question about whether this was a
22 precise explanation and whether it was really like that.
23 But can you tell us whether this was at 8.00 in the morning when
24 you set off towards the Dutch APCs? So you needed about an hour to reach
25 them. Can you be a little bit more specific here?
1 A. It's very difficult to talk about timing and to remember precisely
2 the time. I think that it was in the morning. I don't know whether it
3 was 7.00, 7.30, 6.30. Please believe me when I say that I'm not able to
4 remember exactly what time it was.
5 Q. Very well. But at any -- in any case, it was in the morning,
6 early in the morning?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And if we were to follow that, that you needed about an hour, as
9 you just said, to push through the crowd to reach the Dutch APCs, does
10 that mean that you could have been in the bus at about 9.00 in the morning
11 at the earliest?
12 A. It's the same thing as when we were talking about the starting
13 time. It all depends on that particular time. I said that I couldn't
14 remember exactly what time I set off. We were going to have the finishing
15 time when I said that it was about 7.00 when I thought that we reached
16 Luke. If you're trying to make any calculations and trying to get me to
17 talk about some gap or something, then I think it's the wrong track.
18 Q. I am just telling you that that is not the case at all. I'm not
19 trying to put anything in your mouth that you do not wish to say, but you
20 could say that at about 10.00 you were at Luke?
21 A. Well, I gave you an approximate time. I said that it was very
22 difficult to remember the times and all the details specifically. If you
23 are walking around town and then somebody asks you, "What time were you in
24 such-and-such a shop?" You could give them a time but it would be an
25 estimate. You wouldn't be able to give them the exact time, especially in
1 such difficult circumstances. That makes the whole thing even more
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Very well. I understand that you cannot be sure about the timing,
6 and nobody's asking you to be exact to the minute. But let's say would it
7 be correct to say that you referred Luke in the morning, by noon?
8 A. Yes. We could be even more specific. We could say that we got
9 there at about 10.00. It would be half an hour before or half an hour
10 after. So we could be a bit more specific that it was around 10.00.
11 Q. All right. I will not go on asking you anymore about that.
12 Did you also testify in the Krstic case, on page 1256, lines 22
13 to 25, and you also said that once you passed the Dutch transporter: "[In
14 English] ... and had moved away for the moment and I think that somebody
15 must have called them and they just moved away for a moment and that
16 proved to be a correct assumption later on."
17 [Interpretation] Is this a correct assumption? Did you testify of
18 this in the Krstic case? You can just answer yes or no. I will have
19 to -- I will give you the opportunity to go in detail a little bit
21 A. Yes, it's true that the Serb soldiers did not go in when we were
23 Q. Yes. The danger of you as a man being separated did exist in
24 front of the bus, but the soldiers were called away, so this made it
25 possible for you to go in.
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. I would just like to put a couple more questions to you.
3 When you entered the bus and your trip continued through Bratunac,
4 you passed through Kravica and then you continued on to Luke; is that
6 A. Yes, that is correct. That is known to everyone.
7 Q. Very well. When you were in the bus, you described how you, let
8 me say, concealed yourself by hiding between the seats. You had a child
9 that you took and you were sitting like that so you wouldn't be noticed
10 along the way; is that correct?
11 A. I can describe here to you how the bus has a front and a rear
12 door. I entered through the front door, and I stepped maybe two or three
13 steps inside the bus, and I sat on the floor in a row between two seats,
14 and then women continued to enter after me, and this concentration of
15 women and children around me created a sort of wall around me. So I
16 wasn't visible because I was sitting on the floor; and secondly, I was
17 among the women and children.
18 Q. Very well. The bus moved along this route all that time; is that
19 correct? The bus continued driving, or were there any stops? Did you
20 make any stops anywhere?
21 A. The bus stopped or was stopped at several places. It was stopped
22 by a group of Serbian soldiers who wanted to see if there were any men in
23 the bus.
24 Q. As you were passing through Kravica, you did not stop; is that
1 A. No. The bus did stop in Kravica so that they could look to see if
2 there were any men, since the bus took a while to drive through Kravica
3 because the road was narrow and because there were Serb soldiers aligned
4 along the road, and nearby there were detained men. I assume they were
5 men from Srebrenica. Their hands were tied behind their backs.
6 Q. And we will talk about that a little bit later. What I want to
7 ask you is about the point when you reached Tisca?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... because we've
9 only got two minutes left.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, it seems so, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So choose whether to put another question, maximum
12 two questions now, or whether we adjourn straight away if you're touching
13 on a new subject.
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe I should rather ask these questions
15 tomorrow. It's one topic that I need to cover, and maybe it would be
16 better for me to start tomorrow.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
18 Sir, we didn't manage to finish today. There's still one counsel
19 who wishes to cross-examine you, and that is another 40 minutes or so, but
20 we will continue tomorrow, but within an hour or so you will be out of
21 this courtroom.
22 So in the meantime, now you will be escorted out of this room.
23 You will receive the usual assistance. Go to your hotel and make sure
24 that you do not approach anyone or let anyone approach you to discuss or
25 even to mention the matters on which you are giving evidence today.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,
2 for your patience and the time that you have devoted to this.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we safely adjourn? Is there anything we --
4 Mr. Haynes. Go ahead. We have to bring down the curtains.
5 Otherwise if you finish --
6 MR. HAYNES: That could be done while I'm speaking.
7 I just thought that I'd indicate that I've canvassed all my
8 colleagues and -- in relation to the question of protective measures for
9 witnesses in November, and we have no objection to any of the orders
10 sought and we're satisfied that the conditions are met.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Haynes, and the rest of the
12 Defence teams. So we'll prepare the decision and either tomorrow or the
13 day after we'll hand it down.
14 All right. We stand adjourned until tomorrow morning, Thursday,
15 at 9.00. Thank you.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of
18 November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.