Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3552

1                          Friday, 3 November 2006

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Registrar, good morning to you.  Could you

 7    kindly call the case, please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9    IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  I see all the accused are here.  Defence

11    teams are here.  The exception is Mr. Bourgon.  The Prosecution as

12    yesterday, Mr. Thayer and Mr. McCloskey.  The witness is already in the

13    courtroom.

14            No preliminaries, I take it?  I hear none.

15                          WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-127 [Resumed]

16                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, to you sir.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Welcome back.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  You will only be here a short while and then you're

22    free to go back home.  So Mr. Meek, I take it, will be cross-examining

23    you.  Mr. Meek is with Mr. Ostojic defending Mr. Beara.

24            MR. MEEK:  Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours.  We left

25    quickly yesterday afternoon or I would have told you then I have no

Page 3553

 1    questions for this witness.  Thank you.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm very pleased to hear that, Mr. Meek.  Is the

 3    Nikolic Defence going to cross-examine -- or who, whatever the arrangement

 4    is?

 5            MS. NIKOLIC:  No, Your Honour.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  No cross-examination.  But I understand Borovcanin

 7    Defence team is cross-examining you.  And it is Mr. Stojanovic who you see

 8    standing about to start his cross-examination.

 9            Mr. Stojanovic, go ahead.

10            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

11                          Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

12       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

13       A.   Good morning to you too.

14       Q.   I'll put only a few questions to you, because I wish us to clarify

15    certain points together.

16            First, I would like us to pay attention to part of the video clip

17    we saw yesterday.  Before we begin playing the video, I ask Their Honours

18    and you to pay attention to the person on the left-hand side of the group

19    coming out onto the asphalt road.

20            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is P02047

21    from 2:51:08 to 2:51:42.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you require the sound, Mr. Stojanovic, or not,

23    because we are not receiving any sound.

24            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I don't require

25    it.

Page 3554

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So let's proceed.

 2                          [Videotape played]

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop.

 4            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Sir, do you see this woman in the middle of the picture in among

 6    the people carrying the wounded man?

 7       A.   Yes, I do.

 8       Q.   You also saw her carrying water alongside this wounded person when

 9    he was coming out onto the road in a multicoloured pullover on the

10    left-hand side of the column.

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Do you remember this woman?

13       A.   I probably saw her on the meadow, but I can't be sure.  I'm not

14    sure about it.

15       Q.   Do you know whether she was in the column together with you?

16       A.   Well, as we saw her in the previous part of the clip in the same

17    place, I assume so, yes.

18       Q.   Can you recall whether while you were in the meadow she was

19    offering medical assistance to the people who were injured in the meadow?

20       A.   No, I don't recall that.

21       Q.   You said a little while ago that you did see her while you were on

22    the meadow.

23       A.   Excuse me, sir.  I said I thought I had seen her.  It's possible I

24    saw her, but I can't be a hundred per cent certain.  In my view, these

25    were details.

Page 3555

 1       Q.   Were there other women on the meadow giving assistance to those

 2    who were injured?

 3       A.   Well, I don't know whether they were providing assistance, but I

 4    did see some women, a small number of women, not many.

 5            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I now wish to show

 6    the witness a document which we have marked for identification.  It's

 7    4D58.  It's already in e-court.  It's been translated, but the translation

 8    is not in the system yet.  For this reason, we have distributed the

 9    English translation to all of you, while we have a B/C/S version for the

10    witness.

11            This is information provided by the Municipal Secretariat for

12    Defence of Srebrenica dated the 1st of February, 1995.  It is addressed to

13    the District Secretariat for Defence in Tuzla by the secretary in

14    Srebrenica, Suljo Hasanovic.

15       Q.   Witness, could we please read the first sentence together where

16    the secretary of national defence from Srebrenica is informing the

17    District Secretariat in Tuzla that with this Municipal Secretariat for

18    Defence 73 women volunteers are registered, assigned to military units of

19    the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which exist in the free

20    territories of the Srebrenica municipality, and in the MUP in Srebrenica

21    there are three women volunteers.  Do you see this?  The first sentence of

22    this document.

23       A.   Yes, I see it all.

24       Q.   My question to you is:  Do you know anything about these women who

25    were mobilised for the needs of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 3556

 1       A.   Sir, Counsel, I'm not denying what this document says, but in view

 2    of the circumstances, the season of the year and so on, I knew nothing of

 3    this, and that's my reply.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  I will not insist on this line of questioning any

 5    further, but as yesterday you mentioned that you had seen two women in

 6    camouflage uniforms in the house near the asphalt road, please tell me,

 7    are you convinced that these were two women?

 8       A.   Yes, I'm a hundred per cent certain of that.

 9       Q.   Where did you see them?

10       A.   They were in the house to your right as we were passing by.  There

11    was some kind of balcony on top of the stairs.

12       Q.   Was it possible that they were nurses providing medical

13    assistance?

14       A.   You mean to the Serb army or in general to the wounded Muslims?

15    Excuse me, if you could just clarify your question.

16       Q.   Well, I have been taught that medical staff have to provide

17    assistance to anyone who is injured or wounded regardless of their

18    religion, ethnicity and so on.  So that was my question.

19       A.   Well, it's true that that is the practice.  As we know, in the

20    army there is the red cross, and even though you're in camouflage uniform,

21    there is insignia to show that you're medical staff.  However, I didn't

22    see any of those Serb soldiers bearing such insignia or anyone coming to

23    the aid of our wounded.

24       Q.   So you did not see whether they were nurses and whether they were

25    providing assistance to anyone.

Page 3557

 1       A.   That's correct.

 2       Q.   I would now like to ask you about the point in time when you

 3    arrived on the meadow.  What time was it when you arrived at the asphalt

 4    road?

 5       A.   I wish I had had a watch to consult, but approximately about 3.00,

 6    but I can't be precise about the time.

 7       Q.   So that was the 13th of July, 1995, about 1500 hours; is that

 8    correct?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Could you please tell us, how late was it when you set out on the

11    bus that you boarded on?

12       A.   It was sometime between 4.00 and half past 4.00.

13       Q.   Also on the 13th of July, 1995?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Yesterday, you told us that in the meadow while you were there,

16    according to your estimate there were some 900 to a thousand people.  Do

17    you remember that?

18       A.   Yes, I do, and that's correct.

19       Q.   For the duration of the two hours that you were there, the number

20    of prisoners of war, was it always the same or did it change?

21       A.   I can guarantee that only it could go up as other people arrived.

22    As I could see, some other people arrived later.

23       Q.   And while you were there, did that number rise significantly or

24    not?

25       A.   No, it didn't rise significantly.  It rose by an insignificant

Page 3558

 1    number of men.

 2       Q.   Can we look at another video clip that we have already seen here.

 3    The number is P02047, 2:38:47 to 2:38:58.  That's the time.

 4            Could you please comment this still.  Is this the meadow where you

 5    were?

 6       A.   It is.

 7       Q.   On the right-hand side are these prisoners of war as you described

 8    them?

 9       A.   Yes, they are.

10       Q.   Do you still believe that there were some 900 to a thousand people

11    there?

12       A.   Yes, I believe that, and that's what I'm claiming.

13       Q.   Do you think that this is the number that you mentioned?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And now can we take a look at another exhibit.  This is

16    Exhibit P01579.

17            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is an aerial

18    image depicting the group of prisoners of war who were there on the 13th

19    of July, 1995, around 1400 hours.  P01579 is the exhibit that I would like

20    displayed.

21       Q.   And while this is being done, sir, maybe we can have a chat.

22       A.   Go ahead.

23       Q.   At the time when you came out onto the asphalt road, according to

24    the information we received from the Prosecution this area was taken a

25    photo of and this is the result of that.  The photo was taken on the 13th

Page 3559

 1    of July, 1995, around 1400 hours.

 2            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the place where the meadow

 3    and the buses are depicted be blown up just a little.  Very well.  That's

 4    okay.

 5       Q.   Can you find your bearings in this photo, and could you please

 6    point to the house that you mentioned as the place where you came out onto

 7    the asphalt?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Can you see the asphalt road and the buses on that road?

10       A.   Yes, I can.

11       Q.   Can you also see the meadow and the dark group or dark spot

12    depicting men?

13       A.   Yes, I can.

14       Q.   Is that the group of prisoners that you spoke about yesterday?

15       A.   Yes, it is.  That's the group that I spoke about.

16       Q.   Will you agree with me that the length of one bus is 12 to 13

17    metres?

18       A.   Yes, I will.

19       Q.   And can you see those buses in front of the group of people?

20       A.   Yes, I can.  There are several buses, not just one.  I don't know

21    which bus you're referring to.

22       Q.   Will you agree with me that there are no 900 men in this group?

23       A.   No.  We will not agree on that.

24       Q.   You still maintain --

25       A.   Yes, I still maintain.  I am claiming that there were up to 1.000

Page 3560

 1    men there.

 2       Q.   As you left that place people remained in this meadow?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And you don't know where they were taken after that?

 5       A.   I would like to know, but I don't.

 6       Q.   We have heard the testimony of one of the survivors from the

 7    Sandici meadow who told us that he had been taken to Bratunac.  Did you

 8    personally have any knowledge as to where these people had been taken to?

 9       A.   No, I didn't have any personal knowledge.  I would like to know,

10    and I would kindly ask if you know to tell me where these people were

11    taken.  I don't know.  I don't have any personal knowledge as to where

12    they were taken.

13       Q.   You don't know who took them from there, do you?

14       A.   No, I don't.

15       Q.   Thank you very much.  In any case, we will tell you what we know.

16    Let us now look at some other things that we want to clarify.

17       A.   Yes, go ahead.

18       Q.   In the Krstic case you testified as well, didn't you?

19       A.   Yes, I did.

20       Q.   Do you remember that at the time the Prosecutor showed you photos

21    in which you identified some Serb soldiers who wore UN flak jackets?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And you say that during your stay in Srebrenica you saw flak

24    jackets on UN troops.

25       A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 3561

 1       Q.   You said that in the Krstic case on page 2611 and 2612, from

 2    lines 17 to line 2 on the following page.

 3            During that period of time, in 1992, 1993, and 1994, did you ever

 4    see the flak jackets as were worn by the troops of the Republika Srpska

 5    army?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Did you ever see flak jackets on members of the BiH army in the

 8    enclave?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   In other words, you never saw any other flak jackets but those

11    that were worn by the UN troops; is that correct?

12       A.   Yes, it is.

13       Q.   I would now like to show you a still from the video clip that we

14    saw yesterday, and this is Exhibit 4D -- P01986.  P01986.

15            While this is being done, sir, I would kindly ask you to listen to

16    me quoting your answers from the Krstic case.

17  (redacted)

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Page 3562

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25    go through this again or we have gone through it in any case, and I think

Page 3563

 1    more or less you can proceed.  The witness knows exactly what we are

 2    talking about and what the question was.  But we need to go through this

 3    in private session.

 4                          [Private session]

5  (redacted)

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18                          [Open session]

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic.

20            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at a still from the

21    same video clip.  Again this is P02047, ERN is 4417, and the time is from

22    2:50:14 to 2:15:17.  I'm talking about three seconds of the video clip

23    here.

24       Q.   And while we are looking at the video clip, I would like to draw

25    your attention the flak jackets.

Page 3564

 1            This is a still from the video clip depicting members of the

 2    DutchBat in the UN base in Potocari, and this was taken on the 11th of

 3    July, 1995.  Are these the flak jackets that you had in mind and that you

 4    spoke about?

 5       A.   I can't see it too well.

 6       Q.   Can we repeat the video clip?  Pay attention to the colours of the

 7    flak jackets.

 8                          [Videotape played]

 9            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Did you see them now?

11       A.   Yes.  These are the colours.

12       Q.   Would you agree with me that they're not black?

13       A.   Yes, I will.

14       Q.   Will you agree with me that the flak jackets is multicoloured

15    actually?

16       A.   Yes, we will agree on that.

17       Q.   That there's yellow?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Then there's dark brown -- dark green and light green and coffee

20    colour?

21       A.   Yes, all that is correct.

22       Q.   Or the colour of coffee for the interpretation's sake.

23            Will we agree that there are at least four different nuances of

24    different colours here?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 3565

 1       Q.   Can we now look at the video clip from P02047.  We saw that video

 2    clip number yesterday.  The ERN number is 4417.  The time is 2:50:14 to

 3    2:50:17.

 4            And while this is being done, may this may be an opportunity for

 5    me to correct myself, because the previous clip the time was 17:15 to

 6    17:19 [as interpreted].  Those are the correct times.  17:50 to 17:90.

 7            And now we are looking at the part of clip from 2:50:14 to

 8    2:50:17.  Can you see this still that we saw yesterday?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Will you agree that this soldier is wearing a flak jacket?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Will you agree with me that the colours differ from the ones that

13    we saw on the UN soldiers?

14       A.   Not greatly, but it is possible.

15       Q.   So is it possible that the flak jackets are not the same?

16       A.   It is not possible, because I am very familiar with those flak

17    jackets, and I would not claim something that I wasn't sure of.

18       Q.   But will you agree with me that the colours are not the same?

19       A.   Yes, I will.

20            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am drawing my cross-examination

21    to an end with a couple more questions, Your Honour, if I am allowed to

22    proceed.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  By all means, Mr. Stojanovic, and conclude.

24            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask to go into private

25    session for my next question because of the same problem we had just a

Page 3566

 1    minute ago.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Go into private session for a while, please.

 3                          [Private session]

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20                          [Open session]

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We are in open session again.

22            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Yesterday, if you recall, you spoke about the arrival of two black

24    cars.

25       A.   Yes.

Page 3567

 1       Q.   Can you tell us what direction the cars came from?

 2       A.   Yes, of course I can.  I can orient myself and be sure that they

 3    came from the direction of Srebrenica, because when I entered the bus, it

 4    continued in the same direction.  So that would have been from the

 5    direction of Srebrenica.

 6       Q.   So the buses were going from Srebrenica, Kravica, Bratunac,

 7    towards Konjevic Polje?

 8       A.   Well, to put it simply, towards Tuzla.

 9       Q.   You are sure they were two black cars?

10       A.   Yes, I am.

11       Q.   And you do not know who was in them?

12       A.   I don't know.

13       Q.   Thank you.

14            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now move back into

15    private session, and then I will conclude with my set of questions.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Madam Registrar, private session again,

17    please.

18                          [Private session]

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Page 3568










11    Pages 3568-3569 redacted. Private session.















Page 3570

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17                          [Open session]

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.  It's your turn now, Madam

19    Fauveau, please.

20            Madam Fauveau is representing General Miletic in this case.  She

21    will be cross-examining you now.

22                          Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

23       Q.   [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think the interpreters have taken it for

25    granted --

Page 3571

 1            MS. FAUVEAU:

 2       Q.   [Interpretation] The place where you surrendered to the Serbs was

 3    a place which was formally a part of the enclave of Srebrenica.  The place

 4    where you surrender, was it a part of the former enclave of Srebrenica?

 5       A.   I apologise, could you repeat your question?  I understood it

 6    differently.

 7       Q.   The place where you surrendered to the Serbs, was it outside the

 8    territory of the former enclave of Srebrenica?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Yesterday you mentioned a house which had already been torched

11    when you walked past it.  This house was on the territory controlled by

12    the Serbs before the enclave fell; is that right?

13       A.   I think -- yes.  I think it is.

14       Q.   And therefore you have no idea who was responsible for burning the

15    house down?

16       A.   No, I have no idea.

17       Q.   Thank you very much.  I have no further questions.

18       A.   Thank you.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic is lead counsel defending General Gvero.

20    He will be cross-examining you now.

21            Mr. Krgovic.

22                          Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

23       Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I will move a little so you can see me.  I

24    will put a few questions to you concerning the period before you set out

25    with the column, and I will have a brief set of questions about the time

Page 3572

 1    when the column set out towards Tuzla.  That will be the topic I will deal

 2    with.

 3       A.   Go ahead.

 4       Q.   Yesterday --

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  One moment.

 6            Usher, I want to make sure that there is visual eye contact

 7    with -- between the two.  If you could open up a little bit the flap.

 8    Yes, there.  And I think that's safe enough as it is.

 9            Can you -- can you see each other better like that?

10            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  We can see each other

12    very well.

13            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   Yesterday you said, in answer to a question, that the gathering of

15    people took place in Kazani.

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   After that you set out toward Susnjari.

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   When you arrived in Susnjari, an officer of the Bosnian army tried

20    to organise the column so that it would set out towards Tuzla.

21       A.   No, I don't remember that, nor do I know any officers who did

22    that.

23            MR. KRGOVIC:  1D00055.  [Interpretation] Page 2 of the document.

24    Could the B/C/S version be shown for the witness.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

Page 3573

 1            MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, are we in private session?

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  No, we are not.

 3            MR. THAYER:  If we're not, I think we may --

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  This is what I'm trying to go through this document.

 5            Let's go into private session for a short while, please.

 6                          [Private session]

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Page 3574










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Page 3575

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 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10                          [Open session]

11            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   This Mountain Battalion was under the command of Ejub Golic?

13       A.   Yes, that's what I found out.

14       Q.   Sir, I will now go back a little.  When you were gathering, you

15    said that on that day you gathered near the petrol station at Kazani.

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   I would like to have a video clip played, part of the video you

18    saw before.  That's V000 4458, and the part begins with 4:45 seconds.

19                          [Videotape played]

20            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Stop here, please.

21       Q.   Is this the petrol station?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   It's some 50 metres away from the entrance to the UN base.  It's

24    right next to it.

25       A.   Yes, right next to it, a little downhill.

Page 3576

 1       Q.   Yes.

 2            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Please continue playing the clip.

 3                          [Videotape played]

 4            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I can't hear any sound, Your

 5    Honours.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Neither can I, but I was assuming that you had no

 7    problem with that.  If you have a problem with that, we can start again,

 8    make sure that the sound is on.  All right?

 9            So technicians, please.  We need to see it again, starting from

10    4:45 with the sound activated, please.

11                          [Videotape played]

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  I still can't hear anything, but ...

13                          [Registrar and Trial Chamber confer]

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  I remember seeing this video before.  Of course

15    we've seen it several times and it did have sound.  Yes.  Let's try, but I

16    know exactly where he -- why he wants the sound, because very soon we

17    see -- we hear -- okay.  I think it's coming.

18            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  It was

19    functioning before.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic, it's none of your fault, so don't

21    despair, please.  Be patient, like all Judges are.

22                          [Videotape played]

23            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Stop, please.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  So the video stopped playing at 06:19:02 and started

25    at 04:45.

Page 3577

 1            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   Sir, in response to the Prosecutor's question -- questions, you

 3    said that on the day when the video was taken you were in Srebrenica, in

 4    the vicinity of that area that we just saw before.  Do you recognise the

 5    area?

 6       A.   Yes, I do.

 7       Q.   Did you see this on the day?

 8       A.   No, I didn't.

 9            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go on playing the video clip.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please, let's continue seeing the video.

11                          [Videotape played]

12            MR. KRGOVIC:  Stop here, please.

13       Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember having seen such scenes on that

14    day when you were in Srebrenica in that part?

15       A.   I was there once.  I don't know when.  But this lasted over a

16    number of days.  There were people in the UN base over a number of days.

17       Q.   This was taken on the 10th.

18       A.   No, I can't remember that.

19            MR. KRGOVIC:  Could we go to the private session now?

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Certainly.  Madam Registrar.  One moment.  One

21    moment.

22                          [Private session]

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 3578











11    Page 3578 redacted. Private session.















Page 3579

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3    (redacted)

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12                          [Open session]

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  And could you repeat your question again, please,

14    because I think it should be --

15            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Do you recognise the man in the clip?

17       A.   Yes, I do.  I know who this is.

18       Q.   And on that date you didn't see him?

19       A.   No, I did not.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

21            MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, just for the clarity of the record, if

22    we could have some identification of the person, and I would just note

23    that it's at -- it looks like 8:43:7.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Who is this person that you see in this clip,

25    Witness, the one with his hands raised?

Page 3580

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learnt that his name was Ramiz and

 2    that he was the president of the municipality at the time, and this is the

 3    information that I have about this person.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any further questions?

 5            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   If I were to tell you that this is Ramiz Becirevic, the head the

 7    BiH army in Srebrenica --

 8       A.   I don't know how it functioned, believe me.

 9       Q.   Can you please repeat the first part of your answer, because it

10    wasn't recorded.

11       A.   Yes, that's him.

12            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go on playing the video clip,

13    please.

14                          [Videotape played]

15            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Stop, please.

16            Your Honour, I will no longer need this video clip.  I'm going to

17    ask the witness a few questions now.

18       Q.   Sir, the video clip continues, but this depicted the events on

19    the 10th of July in Srebrenica when you were there?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Would we agree as we watched this video that the only shells that

22    fell and that you heard were the shells that were fired from the mortar by

23    the gas station mortar?

24       A.   Yes, I will agree with that, but we also have to agree on the time

25    and the duration of the video clip, whether the recording covers the

Page 3581

 1    period from morning to dusk.

 2       Q.   This is a continuous period.

 3       A.   But the school and this place, there is a distance between the two

 4    one could say.  I'm sorry that I can't agree.  If there was a video clip

 5    covering the entire day of the 10th, then I would agree; but I can't agree

 6    as things stand now.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think he's perfectly right.  I mean, he's only

 8    shown -- being shown a small part of this, which refers to minutes, a few

 9    minutes.

10            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not want to show the whole

11    clip, but that is the matter of further analysis.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  But even so, when we had the gathering of all those

13    people at the UN compound, there was also another explosion heard, which

14    certainly wasn't the one at the petrol station.

15            So I don't think it's fair to ask the -- that question of the

16    witness.  So let's move to something else, please.

17            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one more question, Your

18    Honours.

19       Q.   Sir, in your previous testimony in the Krstic case and in the

20    statement provided to the Prosecution, when you speak about the shelling

21    on the 10th of July, you never mentioned this in your testimony or in the

22    statement.

23       A.   Yes, I agree with that, but the question was never put to me in

24    that way.  So if it had been put in that way I would have spoken about

25    that.

Page 3582

 1            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

 2    questions for this witness.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

 4            Mr. Haynes.

 5            MR. HAYNES:  No, thank you.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  I take it there is no cross-examination.

 7            Is there re-examination, Mr. Thayer?

 8            MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

 9                          [Trial Chamber confers]

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  So there are no questions from the Bench either,

11    which means that your testimony finishes here.  I thank you on behalf of

12    the Trial Chamber for having come over.  You will receive assistance to

13    facilitate -- organise and facilitate your return back home, and on behalf

14    of everyone, we wish you -- I wish you a safe journey back home.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                          [The witness withdrew]

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, exhibits.  Mr. Thayer.

18            MR. THAYER:  Yes, Your Honour.  The first exhibit the Prosecution

19    wishes to tender is P02285, the pseudonym sheet.  The second is P01583.

20    That is a clean aerial shot of the meadow.  P01584 is a photograph of the

21    house the witness testified about.  The next five -- five exhibits, Your

22    Honour, we gave 65 ter numbers included on the exhibit list but I did not

23    show the actual stills to the witness in order to save time.  Rather, I

24    just stopped the video clip at various points.  However, for the

25    convenience of the Court, I would offer these stills just so it helps the

Page 3583

 1    process.  I would note that there is one still that is not included in

 2    this group and that is of the individual named -- the individual calling

 3    to the people to come out of the woods.  That still is not included in

 4    this, but every other still I believe which identifies individuals he

 5    knew.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't see, or correct me if I'm wrong, the still

 7    of the witness --

 8            MR. THAYER:  Himself.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  -- identified.

10            MR. THAYER:  That is correct.  That is also not in this group.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

12            MR. THAYER:  So those are exhibits --

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's intentional.  The omission is intentional.

14            MR. THAYER:  Yes, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

16            MR. THAYER:  That is P01970, man in the camouflage shirt.  P01971,

17    two brothers.  P01973, man carrying a stretcher.  P01974, this is a man in

18    a blue shirt.  P01975, the same individual as before with his back to the

19    camera next to a Serb soldier carrying a gun.

20            If we're looking at the exhibit list, the next still -- actually,

21    we will not intend to tender P01986.  I do not believe I questioned the

22    witness about this specific portion.  It is included, of course, in the

23    larger video clip.

24            The final two exhibits are PIC00033.  That is the aerial of the

25    area which the witness was kept marked by the witness.  The final exhibit

Page 3584

 1    is PIC00034.  That is another photograph or the same photograph of the

 2    house as P01584 as marked by the witness.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Any objections from any of the Defence

 4    teams?  None.  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?  None.

 5            So all the documents that you referred to are being so admitted

 6    and the numbers will be confirmed by the registrar.

 7            I take it 1986 you've withdrawn, you're not -- you're not

 8    tendering, no?

 9            MR. THAYER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Defence teams.  I understand that the

11    Borovcanin team would like to tender some documents.  Mr. Stojanovic.

12            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13            We would like to tender the following:  4D58, which is the

14    information from the Municipal Secretariat for Defence in Srebrenica dated

15    1st of February, 1995.  Then the aerial photo of Sandici taken on the 13th

16    of July, 1995, which was marked as 4DP01579.  And bearing in mind that the

17    Prosecution has given up on this exhibit, the Defence wants to tender the

18    video still that was marked as 4DP01986.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:

20            MR. STOJANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Just to avoid any

21    misunderstanding on page 33, line 7, we would like to have -- this has

22    just been corrected, so I withdraw the remark.  Thank you.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  I was going to correct it too.

24            So any objections from the Prosecution?

25            MR. THAYER:  No objections, Your Honour.  And while we're with

Page 3585

 1    Mr. Stojanovic, I just wanted to offer some clarification because the

 2    issue was raised during the cross-examination with respect to the

 3    references to a Prosecution witness whom was the basis for some of the

 4    questions that Mr. Stojanovic asked about the -- for example, the

 5    witness's arrest record and so forth.  I did not object at that time

 6    because I believe and continue to believe that Mr. Stojanovic had a good

 7    faith basis for asking those questions, and that good faith basis is that

 8    this witness to whom Mr. Stojanovic is referring is Zoran Petrovic, the

 9    individual who took the video who was accompanying the accused Borovcanin

10    during this period of time.  We do intend to call Mr. Petrovic as a

11    witness, and I just wanted to clarify that for the Court, so you

12    understand what the basis was and who this witness is.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Fair enough.  Fair enough, and I thank

14    you for that information.

15            Mr. Krgovic, no documents?  Madam Fauveau neither.  I think that's

16    it.  And that concludes -- yeah, they are so admitted.  Obviously there is

17    no objection from any of the Defence teams or the Prosecution.  So they

18    are so admitted.

19            Now, I understand that the next witness has had an accident on the

20    way to the Tribunal.

21            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not sure it was on the way to --

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  In any case, he's had an accident and he's not

23    available.

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct.  Early next week we should have

25    that person.

Page 3586

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  So what are we going to do with the next three

 2    hours?

 3            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I've been trying to assemble some videotape, and

 4    so I have at least one portion of a videotape that I think is relevant,

 5    and I've mentioned to counsel, and as far as I know, there's no

 6    disagreement on it.  That would be the Skorpion video.  If we could go

 7    briefly into private session.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's go into private session for a short time

 9    and then we'll proceed with the break.

10                          [Private session]

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 3587

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16                          [Open session]

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  So I thank you for that information, Mr. McCloskey.

18            Our intention, as you -- I'm sure you would have gathered, is that

19    if there is a way in which we could utilise the time that we have, then

20    we'll do our best.

21            We'll have a 30-minute break now, because we need 30 minutes

22    because of the redactions, during which time if it is at all possible for

23    you to reach an agreement with the Defence on the second video, then we

24    can also see the second video.

25            If there are any submissions against us seeing the first video,

Page 3588

 1    the Skorpion one, then at least give us an indication now.  Okay?  So the

 2    understanding is that we see today only the relevant part that you have

 3    addressed the Trial Chamber about while we were in private session.

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Also, if -- if the Defence

 5    has anything based on my potential suggestion last time, something they

 6    want to clarify about a witness, Mr. Stojanovic had made a brief argument

 7    about the column, and if I can answer anyone's questions about the view of

 8    the indictment towards the column, the law we're looking at, anything like

 9    that, as you know I'm sure us lawyers could talk for a good while, if need

10    be, if that would be of any help.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  So we'll reconvene in 30 minutes' time.

12            Thank you.

13                          --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

14                          --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Mr. McCloskey, do you wish to update the Trial

16    Chamber on any possible new developments, if at all?

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  In discussions with the

18    Defence team on the other video, I think we'd prefer to keep discussions

19    going and have that played at another time, and I think that's -- that's

20    fine.  It's only seven minutes, so it's -- wouldn't have gotten a lot of

21    time with us.

22            On the -- and the good news on the video that we're about to show,

23    I've had initial discussions with the Defence and there's three other

24    witnesses that go into material related to that video and the results of

25    exhumations and authentications, and it looks like we're going to, well,

Page 3589

 1    hopefully be able to reach an agreement so those three witnesses come in

 2    in some form of stipulated agreement.  So that should save a lot of time,

 3    and perhaps this will be the only time the video will have to be played.

 4            So that's the good news.  Otherwise, we have this video.  We're

 5    ready to play it, and it will -- we haven't had much luck with video this

 6    morning, but I've asked Ms. Stewart just to still it at one point where we

 7    will recognise, hopefully, the -- the still that I referred to before of

 8    the previous -- what the previous witness was talking about.  But

 9    otherwise we'll just play it the way it is, and any information or

10    questions related to it we'll try to work out from the stipulation.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Josse.

12            MR. JOSSE:  Mr. McCloskey, Your Honour, very gallantly mention

13    whom the Defence team -- to whom the seven-minute video referred or

14    related to.  It's us.  I'm very grateful to him and the Trial Chamber for

15    allowing us a bit more time to discuss this particular issue.  I

16    personally haven't seen it.  My learned friend provided some stills of it

17    this morning.  I have had a chance to discuss it with General Gvero but

18    some more time would be appreciated.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, and you will have all the time that you

20    require.

21            MR. JOSSE:  Thank you very much.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  It's not in the style of this Trial Chamber to cut

23    you off or to --

24            But anyway, Mr. McCloskey, there was the other suggestion that you

25    made.  I'm just referring to it again, because I think it's a very

Page 3590

 1    interesting proposition that you made to the Defence teams, namely that --

 2    particularly when you referred to Mr. Stojanovic's argument with the

 3    column and your availability to answer anybody's questions about the

 4    review of the indictment towards the column, the law, and so on and so

 5    forth.  If you can take that up further in due course, I think it will be

 6    extremely beneficial, to everyone, I would imagine.

 7            So let's go to the video.  Do we need all this light for the video

 8    or can we lower it a little bit down?

 9                          [Videotape played]

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Look down in the left corner for subtitles.  I

11    haven't seen this style before, but that's where you need to look.

12                          [Videotape played]

13            MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's all we have for the day, Mr. President.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we adjourn?  Next sitting will be on Monday, and

15    I think it's in the morning.  It's in the morning.  But then the rest of

16    the week it's in the afternoon, and we are not sitting on Friday.  That's

17    upon the request of one of the Defence teams.

18            All right.  We stand adjourned.  Thank you.  Have a nice weekend.

19            Is this tendered already or not yet?

20            MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, but I can tender it.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  You can do it next time.

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

24                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.28 a.m.,

25                          to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day

Page 3591

 1                          of November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.