Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3592

1 Monday, 6 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could you

6 call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam and good morning to you.

10 So all the accused are here.

11 Defence as last Friday.

12 Prosecution, today there is Ms. Soljan as well present.

13 So no preliminaries, I take it. All right. So we have the next

14 witness. Let him -- let's bring him in, please.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for having

20 invited me to come here.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. I didn't invite you. It's

22 the Prosecution that has invited you and you are a Prosecution witness.

23 Before you start giving evidence, our Rules require that you make a solemn

24 declaration, which Madam Usher is going to hand to you now. Please read

25 it out loud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us that you will

Page 3593

1 testify the truth.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that

3 I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please take a seat and make yourself

7 comfortable. So this is not the first time you're testifying before this

8 Tribunal. You've testified before and you had some protective measures.

9 We have also put in place for you some protective measures, namely, you

10 will be testifying under a pseudonym, not with your name and surname, and

11 you will be referred to as Witness 126, if I remember well. You are also

12 going to testify with facial distortion and also voice distortion. In

13 other words, your face will not be shown and your voice will not be

14 transmitted outside this courtroom. I suppose these have already been

15 explained to you. Have they been explained to you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And you're satisfied with these arrangements?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So Ms. Soljan will go first. She will be

20 examining you in chief and then the various Defence teams will follow each

21 other in cross-examining you. Ms. Soljan.

22 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Examination by Ms. Soljan:

24 Q. Good morning, Witness. If I could please have the usher's

25 assistance to provide the witness with what has been marked for

Page 3594

1 identification as P02286, please.

2 Now, Witness, please take a look at this piece of paper and --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- tell us whether your name is written on it, without saying your

5 name, please. Is your name on there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you very much. If you could please show that paper to my

8 learned friends? Thank you.

9 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, if we could go into private session for

10 the beginning.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a while,

12 please.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

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Page 3595

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11 [Open session]


13 Q. Turning your attention specifically to the 11th of July 1995, can

14 you please tell us where you were that morning?

15 A. That morning, I was in my house in Srebrenica, together with my

16 brother.

17 MS. SOLJAN: If we could actually go briefly into private session

18 for --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Borovcanin?

20 THE ACCUSED BOROVCANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe

21 that somebody's microphone is on because we are not receiving the

22 witness's voice. We are receiving interpretation but not the witness's

23 words. We can't hear.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- I checked the last time we had someone

25 testifying with voice distortion. That was indeed the case because I

Page 3596

1 checked to see on all the channels whether you could hear the testimony.

2 Sit down -- you could hear the testimony and it could not be heard. On

3 that occasion, I can confirm but I don't know what the arrangement is. I

4 think inside the courtroom, they should be able to hear. It has got

5 nothing to do with the microphones on or not on because I have been using

6 eagle's eyes to make sure that there are no microphones switched on while

7 the witness is speaking. Were the others getting her testimony? So it

8 could well be that he was not on the right channel? General Miletic, were

9 you? You were sitting next to him. Were you receiving the testimony or

10 not?

11 THE ACCUSED MILETIC: [Interpretation] No, no, not in my earphones.

12 I could hear the voice in the courtroom but not through the headphones.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's get the witness to say something

14 now. I'm going to switch off my microphone.

15 Madam, please do say something. Just say --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What am I supposed to say?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's all. We just wanted to make sure that what

18 you are saying is being heard.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I know.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. [Microphone not activated] If that

21 happens again, please, let us know straight away as Mr. Borovcanin did.

22 Thank you.

23 All right. Sorry for that interruption. Ms. Soljan, please go

24 ahead. We are in private session by the way.

25 [Private session]

Page 3597











11 Page 3597 redacted.Private session















Page 3598

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4 [Open session]


6 Q. Now, Madam, you have stated that on the 11th of July 1995, you

7 were at your house in Srebrenica. What was happening --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- this morning?

10 A. That morning, early, when I got up, I saw people moving in large

11 numbers towards Potocari, carrying their belongings, suitcases, bags.

12 They were carrying things and helping each other. And I and my brother

13 were watching this, and my brother says, "What are we going to do, sister?

14 Are we going to go and join them as well?" And I said I was not too keen

15 because I thought that Srebrenica was not supposed to fall. It was a

16 protected area, demilitarised area. It wouldn't fall. These same people

17 would go back and we exchanged views and opinions for a while, and it was

18 almost 11.00 on that morning.

19 The people had already left, most of them left Srebrenica. I

20 heard a woman screaming, "My son. You got killed. And I did not even get

21 a chance to bury you." It was around 11.00. I did not have a watch but I

22 believe it was around 11.00, when I got out of the house and all over

23 Bojna I could see the Serb soldiers approaching, and I could see some

24 people hiding and I could hear shots and the noise of fire all around my

25 fence. And even before Srebrenica fell, there was shelling for days, and

Page 3599

1 even after Srebrenica fell, the shells never stopped falling around

2 Srebrenica and in Srebrenica.

3 Q. And, Witness, why were these people leaving Srebrenica?

4 A. Because they realised that we would all be killed. They saw

5 people being killed. They could hear fire and the DutchBat members kept

6 telling them to go to Potocari. And people were moving together with the

7 DutchBat soldiers. And after them, I saw the Serb soldiers and all over

8 Bojna I could see armed people and I'm sure that those were Serb soldiers

9 approaching the town.

10 Q. And what did you do next?

11 A. My brother and I got ready and started slowly moving towards

12 Potocari. We saw that almost everybody had left Srebrenica. There were a

13 few people left, however, who were either disabled or elderly, who didn't

14 know what was going on. The Serb soldiers had already entered Srebrenica

15 and captured them. In any case, whoever remained in Srebrenica did not

16 survive, did never come to Potocari and was never seen again.

17 Q. And, Witness, around what time did you and your brother arrive in

18 Potocari? Do you recall?

19 A. We left around 11.00, and we moved slowly. There was constant

20 shelling. There were the dead people and blood along the road, and there

21 were a lot of people screaming for help. There were those covered in

22 blood and dead and not moving. However, nobody looked at others.

23 Everybody minded their own business. They wanted to get to Potocari as

24 soon as possible, to save themselves.

25 Q. And can you tell around what time you arrived in Potocari? How

Page 3600

1 long did it take you to get to Potocari from Srebrenica?

2 A. It may have been about half past 12 or 1.00 in the afternoon. We

3 did not walk all the time. We had to hide from time to time. When we

4 heard that bigger shells would fall, we would hide behind a tree, a house,

5 and when the things subsided, then we would continue walking again.

6 Q. Thank you. Upon arriving in Potocari, what did you see there?

7 A. As I arrived in Potocari, together with my brother, there were a

8 lot of people there, thousands of people were there, and people kept on

9 arriving after us, but in smaller numbers. There were a lot of Bosniak

10 people there who had come from Srebrenica. On that day, the Serb soldiers

11 did not come there. We did not see them on the 11th of July or at least I

12 didn't see a Serb soldier. I did not see anybody coming there on that

13 day.

14 Q. And can you tell us where you spent the night, the evening of this

15 11 July 1995?

16 A. When we arrived there on that day, there were a lot of people.

17 That's how night fell. It started getting cold and my brother said, there

18 is a shed over there, why don't we bring some straws and there is an old

19 car, a little van, there we will find shelter in that van. That's where

20 we spent the night. We were hungry but it did not occur to us to feel

21 hungry. We had not taken anything with us but it was okay. We did not

22 actually feel hunger.

23 Q. Can you please tell us what happened the next morning, on July 12,

24 when you woke up?

25 A. We did not even sleep. We were awake all night. We were awaiting

Page 3601

1 for the dawn to see what would happen. All I wanted was to go back home.

2 However, around 10.00 on the 12th of July, there was panic among people.

3 There was screaming and wailing, and women started shouting, "There come

4 the Chetniks." And they were pointing their fingers at different places.

5 And there is places up there, Pecista, Budak came from there. You could

6 see that they had already started torching. They were not torching

7 valuable and important things, but some unimportant things, and they were

8 wearing camouflage uniforms, olive-drab uniforms and black uniforms. They

9 narrowed the circle around us and they started moving among the people who

10 were there in Potocari.

11 Q. And did you see whether or not they had weapons?

12 A. Yes. They were all armed. I did not see a single of their men

13 without being armed to their tooth.

14 Q. Did you recognise any of these soldiers?

15 (redacted)

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Page 3602

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24 And Ms. Soljan, if you're going to pursue this item, this matter,

25 with further questions relating to specific individuals, I think we need

Page 3603

1 to go into private session as we go along.

2 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Your Honour. There aren't going to be

3 many questions, but yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Already, I have my doubts in reality. Let's go into

5 private session for a while.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

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24 [Open session]


Page 3604

1 Q. Witness, I'd just like to remind you not to mention any names, and

2 if you are about to mention names of people, to let us know so that we can

3 go into private session. But --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You asked them for them, no?

5 MS. SOLJAN: We are in private session now, right?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now, but you asked her for

7 names.

8 MS. SOLJAN: It's true I asked her if she had recognised any

9 soldiers. The next question was going to go there.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But we are in open session.

11 MS. SOLJAN: Okay.

12 Q. Now, what happened next? You had mentioned that in the morning of

13 July 20th [sic], you saw soldiers arriving. There was panic. What

14 happened next?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.

16 MS. SOLJAN: Just correction. It says July 20th in the

17 transcript. It should be July 12th.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 11th of July, I left my

19 house, and on the 12th of July, the Serb soldiers came to Potocari. They

20 came to us and were there around us on the 12th, not the 20th.


22 Q. And what happened next?

23 A. That morning, we saw -- well, shall I speak about it again, that

24 morning, when we left the house or --

25 Q. No, no. I am referring now to the 12th of July, when you already

Page 3605

1 were in Potocari.

2 A. All right, the 12th. Very well. I apologise.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, please, before you open your mouth to say

4 something, make sure that Ms. Soljan's microphone, the red light, is off.

5 Don't jump --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.


8 Q. You may continue describing the 12th of July, please. Thank you.

9 A. Should I speak? Who should speak now?

10 Q. Yes, yes, if you can -- I asked you if you could tell us what was

11 happening after the soldiers arrived on the 12th of July 1995, into

12 Potocari. What happened next?

13 A. The soldiers came and they started to walk amongst the people.

14 There were a lot of horses around because people had brought the feeble

15 persons on horses, the soldiers began to ride and play around. They

16 didn't really go deep into the crowd but sort of more on the edges of it.

17 And the men would tell us, "Stop crying, stop creating panic. Stop making

18 all these noises. You are all going to get to the free territory." Some

19 spoke like that. Others said, "Had you not done what you did in 1992, we

20 wouldn't be having a war now." They said, "Look at Srebrenica, you will

21 never go back there again. Look, turn back and look." That's what they

22 said. Then they said, "Don't think that we are not going to find you in

23 Tuzla and Sarajevo."

24 Q. Now, where did you and your brother go once the soldiers arrived

25 into Potocari?

Page 3606

1 A. My brother and I were there. My brother was still under the

2 truck. And I would go outside to see what was happening, could we go out,

3 should we leave, should we return home. We were still very indecisive.

4 We didn't know what would happen. If I heard something, I would go and

5 see him and tell him, I told him don't worry about anything. They say

6 that we will all be transferred safely to Tuzla or Sarajevo. In any case

7 there won't be any problems and then I encouraged him a little bit. I

8 didn't speak to him about bad things. I wanted to encourage him so that

9 he could reach the buses. They were telling us that there would be buses

10 and trucks arriving to transport us.

11 Then on one occasion, I left for a walk, a little bit farther off

12 and I could see that buses really did indeed start arriving and there were

13 trucks, and I told him, "Let's go closer. Let's not wait and be the last

14 ones. Let's go down there slowly. Let's go to the buses. The other

15 people are going to." So we started to get closer. I also saw -- I was

16 happy to see the people that I recognised. I believed that they are going

17 to give some sort of help. I didn't believe that what happened would

18 happen. I thought something better would happen, but actually the worst

19 possible thing happened in Potocari. We all know. It's all clear to us.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 MS. SOLJAN: If we could go into private session, please, now.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 3607











11 Pages 3607-3621 redacted.Private session















Page 3622

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24 [Open session]

25 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, if we could perhaps have a break for

Page 3623

1 the witness now, before the cross-examination begins? Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that all right with the Defence teams? We need

3 to have a 30-minute break because of the redactions and we will have the

4 break start from now. Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is going first? Ms. Condon? Ms. Condon is

8 appearing for accused Popovic, Colonel Popovic, in this case, and she will

9 be cross-examining you first.

10 MS. CONDON: We have no questions for this witness, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I pre-empted the matter. Mr. Meek?

12 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, if it please the Trial Chamber, we have no

13 questions for this witness also.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Meek was representing Colonel Beara.

15 Madam Nikolic?

16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good, Your Honours, we don't have

17 questions for this witness.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That was for accused Nikolic. Mr. Lazarevic?

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have a few questions.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Mr. Lazarevic is appearing for accused

21 Borovcanin in this case.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

23 Q. Good morning, Madam.

24 A. Good morning to you, too.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: We should move to private session very early just

Page 3624

1 to make sure.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means, but I also noticed that you did not

3 switch off your microphone, when the witness was talking. Make sure that

4 you switch it off.

5 [Private session]

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Page 3625











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Page 3629

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. So now it's even more

22 important, Madam, to allow a pause between question and answer, which you

23 haven't been doing in spite of my exhortation.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And now we are talking about the situation in Potocari. It was a

Page 3630

1 very large crowd of people there. There was a lot of commotion going on

2 and all those people wanted to get to the buses. Is that a true picture

3 of the situation?

4 A. What the people wanted to do most was to return home to -- return

5 to their homes, but when the chaos ensued and the men began to be

6 separated from the women, then the people tried to get close to the buses,

7 to the trucks, to be transported out. But no truck with the men crossed

8 into the free territory of the federation. That is a fact.

9 Q. During your testimony today, you mentioned a human chain

10 consisting of Serb and Dutch soldiers who were holding hands and

11 preventing more or less the entire group of refugees to push towards the

12 transport. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes. I remember that very well. That's how it was. They were

14 holding hands. A Serb soldier and a Dutch soldier and then they would

15 raise their hands, let through however they wanted, how many people they

16 wanted to, and when they felt that the bus was full, they would then lower

17 their hands.

18 Q. A few more questions about this. Can you please tell me whether

19 this human chain was long? How many people could have been in that human

20 chain, both the Serb and the Dutch soldiers?

21 A. I couldn't really give you the number. There were many Serb

22 soldiers, it's true, many more than Dutch soldiers.

23 Q. So the chain mostly consisted of Serb soldiers who were holding

24 back the crowd of refugees and with the odd Dutch soldier holding hands

25 with them, is that how it was?

Page 3631

1 A. I wanted to say that on the road, when they were letting people

2 pass through to the buses, there was one Dutch and one Serb soldier, but

3 in Potocari, there was a big mass, a large number of Serb soldiers.

4 Q. Can you help me to understand your answer so that it is completely

5 clear? I'm not doubting that there were many more Serb than Dutch

6 soldiers in Potocari. What I'm interested in, though, is just the chain,

7 when they were holding hands. Were there more Serbs there or Dutch or was

8 it one and then the other? Did they alternate?

9 A. Yes, it was -- they were alternating.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have no further questions for the witness.

11 [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is next? Mr. Krgovic who is appearing for

13 General Gvero, will now cross-examine you.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe that we have some problem

15 with interpretation because the transcript here reads on page 40, line 8,

16 the answer was "they were alternating." And the way I understood the

17 witness said there was one Serb soldier, then next to him a Dutch soldier

18 and then again Serb soldier. That's the way, one on one, that's -- okay.

19 Okay, then.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Any way, I heard you. I don't think there is a

21 problem but let's move to Mr. Krgovic's cross-examination. And again, Mr.

22 Krgovic and Madam witness, please allow for a short pause between the

23 question and answer.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

25 Q. Good day, Madam.

Page 3632

1 A. Good day to you.

2 Q. I'm going to put a few questions to you about your stay in

3 Srebrenica shortly before you left for Potocari.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When I put the question to you, can you please make a short pause

6 before answering so that we do not overlap and in that way, reveal your

7 identity? We are speaking the same language. We understand each other.

8 And it's possible then to overlap and I'm telling you this both for the

9 sake of the interpreting and also so that we do not reveal your identity.

10 So when I give you a sign, then you can begin to answer. Is that all

11 right?

12 Madam, that day, you said, responding to the Prosecutor's

13 question, that you left your house at around 11.00 and went out into the

14 street in Srebrenica; is this correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That day, in the morning, between 10.00 and 11.00, until you left

17 Srebrenica, Srebrenica was not shelled; is that correct?

18 A. No, it's not correct that it wasn't shelled. It was shelled. The

19 whole time, five days before that, when they began, they never stopped.

20 That night, the shelling never stopped.

21 Q. I'm asking you specifically about that morning, that morning,

22 between 10.00 and 11.00, right until you left for Potocari, Srebrenica was

23 not shelled; is that correct?

24 A. It was always shelled. It's not true that it wasn't shelled.

25 They didn't stop shelling. You could hear the shells non-stop in

Page 3633

1 Srebrenica and around Srebrenica.

2 Q. I am interested specifically in the town of Srebrenica, in the

3 area where you were, and this particular period. I'm asking you about

4 that. I'm going to put some questions to you later about the other time.

5 So that morning, between 10.00 and 11.00, until you left Srebrenica,

6 Srebrenica was not shelled?

7 A. Srebrenica was shelled.

8 Q. In this period that I mentioned?

9 A. Yes, this period. It was shelled the whole time.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, objection.

11 MS. SOLJAN: Asked and answered, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct. Sustained. Next line of questions,

13 please, Mr. Krgovic.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Madam, I'm talking about the 10th of July. On the 10th of July,

16 between 8.00 and 9.00 in the evening, Srebrenica was not shelled; is that

17 correct?

18 A. No. It is not correct. Srebrenica was shelled from five days

19 before that. And when it began, there were non-stop shells. I would like

20 to recall that image for you, if I could, and to say how many people were

21 killed five days before Srebrenica fell. On the 11th of July, the

22 electricity was cut off, the water was cut off, the different small wells

23 and streams that existed where people stood in line, the whole time, about

24 50 people on average would wait there to fill a canister with water, then

25 when the shell fell, five, 10, 20 dead people would be left, even more.

Page 3634

1 This is for sure.

2 Q. Madam, on the 10th of July at 3.00 p.m. onwards, until, let's say,

3 5 p.m., Srebrenica was not shelled; is that correct?

4 A. No, it is not correct. What is correct is that it was shelled

5 non-stop, that it did not cease. I wasn't paying attention with a

6 stopwatch when the shelling was going on or not, but you had to keep on

7 the run the entire time and you could hear shells in Srebrenica and around

8 Srebrenica.

9 Q. Madam, in Srebrenica, on the 10th and 11th of July, no building

10 was hit during that period when you were there. I'm talking about the

11 centre of Srebrenica town. Is that correct?

12 A. Shells were falling. I didn't go from building to building to see

13 where the shell hit and where it did not. You could hear the shelling,

14 there was shooting, people were screaming out. There wasn't a single day

15 when people were not driven to the medical centre because of shell wounds.

16 Q. Madam, did you personally see in Srebrenica, in that period, on

17 the 10th and 11th of July, that a house was hit or that anybody was killed

18 or wounded?

19 A. I was at my house. I was going about my business. I didn't go

20 around to see when and if people were killed. You could just constantly

21 hear shelling. First of all, for a while, it was quiet, and very nice.

22 There was no food in Srebrenica, but mostly there was no shelling. But

23 then before the fall of Srebrenica, some 15 days before that, the shells

24 started to fall and then this became more intense and then even more

25 intense and then one or two nights before the fall, it never stopped. The

Page 3635

1 shells kept raining down. You could hear the noise; it was pretty loud.

2 They were firing from all weapons. This is definitely what it was like.

3 Q. You didn't answer my question. You personally did not see a

4 single shell fall in Srebrenica or any casualties because of that?

5 A. Yes. I did see it. At a water source near my house. That's

6 where I saw a shell fall and I saw that three women were hit. They were

7 killed. And there were other people hit by shrapnel and wounded and they

8 were taken off to the Srebrenica medical centre.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Ms. Soljan?

10 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, I was objecting to the repeated

11 question about seeing the buildings.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But any way, it was useful to wait because she gave

13 the answer in any case.

14 Yes, Mr. Krgovic. Wait one moment, Mr. Krgovic.

15 Madam, I appeal for your cooperation a little bit. I am informed

16 by the interpreters that they are encountering some difficulties in trying

17 to follow your testimony and translate it into both English and French.

18 There are two reasons for this. One reason is that you're speaking too

19 fast and you need to slow down a little bit. The other reason is that you

20 are speaking too much close to the microphone and you're also speaking

21 very loud and that is not very good for the interpreters. So if you could

22 distance yourself a little bit from the microphone and lower a little bit

23 your voice, then the interpreters will be much happier. All right? Thank

24 you.

25 Mr. Krgovic.

Page 3636

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Madam, what you were talking about earlier was not on the 10th and

3 the 11th of July; is that correct?

4 A. It was on the 10th and the 11th of July.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And now it's over, Mr. Krgovic, no more questions on

6 whether it was the 10th or the 11th and whether she has seen this. Move

7 to something different because you've been labouring on -- labouring this

8 a little bit too long.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm just going to put

10 my final question. And the reason why I put these detailed questions is

11 precisely because I would like to show the witness a document relating to

12 the specific time period and the shelling that I was asking the witness

13 about. And that will be my last question.

14 Q. Madam, if I were to tell you that there was a video footage of

15 Srebrenica on the 10th and 11th of July, recorded by people from

16 Srebrenica, Muslims, which do not show what you are testifying about

17 today, would that perhaps induce you to change your position on the

18 shelling of Srebrenica on the 10th and the 11th of July?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer the question for the time being. Only

20 when I tell you. So does the video that you are referring to span, go

21 over a span of 24 hours?

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The footage covers

23 the period that I asked the witness about, so the date and the time that I

24 asked the witness about.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Show her whatever you want to show her

Page 3637

1 but -- yes, Ms. Soljan, one moment before we start.

2 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I still think we need a

3 clearer explanation about what particular time period these video clips --

4 did not last 24 hours, so what particular time period is he talking about.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can deduce that from the questions that

6 he put earlier on, 10 to 11, 3.00 to 6.00 or whatever. But again, I mean,

7 let's see. Let's start the video rolling, please.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't hear the

10 sound. Maybe we could stop the film.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. [Microphone not activated]

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The problem that we have obviously is this. Let's

14 take it, for argument's sake, agree completely with you that this

15 footage -- on this footage, there are no sounds of any shelling. Does

16 that mean that on the 10th and on the 11th, there was no shelling? It

17 only means that during that period, during which the film was being shot,

18 there was no shelling, which does not contradict the witness because the

19 witness told you that she was not timing the shelling and is not in a

20 position to tell you what time of the day or of the night there was

21 shelling. So --

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is not the only

23 evidence that Srebrenica was not shelled on that day. Even the

24 Prosecution military expert, Mr. Butler in the Krstic case, established

25 that there was no proof or evidence that Srebrenica was shelled over those

Page 3638

1 two days.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's just not correct, if he's going to be

3 stating Mr. Butler. That's outrageous.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think the existence of this video, in

5 juxtapose to what the witness has been testifying is not going to change

6 anything. You have her evidence which says one thing and the video which

7 says another, and if you feel that the version portrayed by the video is

8 supported by other evidence, leave it there.

9 If you insist on showing it to her, we show it to her. But --

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, there is no

11 need to show this footage. I accept your remarks completely.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... at the same

13 time, there is a limit. Yes, further questions?

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Fauveau? Madam Fauveau is

17 appearing for General Miletic and she will now be cross-examining you.

18 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

19 Q. Madam, you said a while ago that members of the DutchBat were

20 together with the Serb military on the road when people were being asked

21 to board the buses. Would you say that the DutchBat members were working

22 together or hand in hand with the Serb soldiers?

23 A. I don't know if they were cooperating or not or working together.

24 I saw them together and I know that they were Dutch soldiers above

25 Srebrenica protecting the Srebrenica safe zone, and I know that there were

Page 3639

1 Serb soldiers too, but Srebrenica was shelled above the Dutch soldiers,

2 the town itself and its environs were shelled and I know that people were

3 leaving Srebrenica that day because the DutchBat had come from up there

4 and said, "Go in the direction of Potocari." Serb soldiers were walking

5 behind them tightening the circle, and that's how we reached Potocari. A

6 lot of things happened in Potocari. I couldn't follow everything that was

7 going on, but that place that I told you about near the buses, there were

8 one Serb soldier, one Dutch soldier, alternating. They were holding

9 hands --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They held hands and then when they

12 would allow enough people to pass for the bus, they would raise their

13 hands and then when they felt enough had gone, they would put their hands

14 down. Then there were other people in the batteries factory, in the

15 maintenance plant. I didn't see each of the factories. I saw that there

16 were a lot of people. I didn't go into the factories but there were

17 thousands of souls there. That is beyond dispute.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Next question.

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think we have a

20 problem here controlling the witness. Could you ask the witness to just

21 answer the question and not go beyond the question? Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Madam Fauveau -- yes?

23 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour, that was a very broad question and I

24 think that the witness answered the question to the best of her abilities.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the question was very simply put, whether

Page 3640

1 they were cooperating. And she started off with saying that she didn't

2 quite know whether they were cooperating or not. And the first part of

3 her answer was quite relevant but the rest wasn't.

4 Yes, Madam Fauveau?

5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Madam, when it came to moving towards the buses, did you notice

7 any problems between the DutchBat soldiers and the Serb soldiers?

8 A. I did not notice any problems among them at all. I mean, that

9 they had problems with each other.

10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we move into

11 private session because I have a few questions that may help some people

12 to identify the witness.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3641











11 Pages 3641-3646 redacted.Private session















Page 3647

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, Madam Fauveau has finished her

Page 3648

1 cross-examination here and Defence team for General Pandurevic stated they

2 have no cross-examination for this witness. Is there re-examination, Ms.

3 Soljan?

4 MS. SOLJAN: Just very briefly, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

6 MS. SOLJAN: If we could go into private session, please.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session again.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3649











11 Pages 3649-3651 redacted.Private session















Page 3652

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, thank you so much for having come over to

9 give evidence in this case. Our team will assist you to facilitate your

10 return back home and on behalf of everyone here, I wish you a safe journey

11 back home. Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for having

13 invited me, and for bearing throughout my testimony, for bearing with me.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Not at all. Thank you.

15 I take it you have the next witness in line, no? Yeah, okay.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, exhibits. Ms. Soljan?

18 MS. SOLJAN: Yes, Your Honours. We have P02286, which was the

19 pseudonym sheet under seal. The PIC 00034-1516. This was a aerial map

20 marked by the witness indicating the location of the house today. And

21 then PIC 00035 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Any objections? Yes, Mr. Josse?

24 MR. JOSSE: I think we will need to redact that, Your Honour,

25 what's just been said.

Page 3653

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree. So let's redact lines 24 and 25 and -- of

2 page 61, and -- well, actually we can redact only line -- from line 25

3 after the words, "Then PIC 00035" til the next line which is first line on

4 page 62. Thank you for that observation, Mr. Josse. Are there any

5 objections? Okay. So your documents so tendered are being admitted. Any

6 of the Defence teams -- yes, Madam Fauveau?

7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like to tender Exhibit

8 number 5D96 which is a statement made by the other person, page 2, the

9 last paragraph, please.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think this would also need to be kept under

11 seal because -- this is the statement of the other person.

12 Yes, let's see whether there is an objection first. You are

13 right.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'm sorry for stepping in. Just

15 that I was present at the last trial. We are in private session, I take

16 it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No we are in open session.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go into private session?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3654

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry for interrupting you like this but we were --

22 yes, Madam Fauveau?

23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like simply to inform the

24 Chamber that we will request a correction officially of the transcript

25 concerning page 27, line 15 to 19, since the second answer of the witness

Page 3655

1 does not correspond at all to the first one and we will request from the

2 translation service to compare the transcript to what the witness said.


4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] On the audio recording.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you for pointing that out.

6 Can we usher in the next witness? That's going to be 92 ter

7 witness?

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that's Mr. Vanderpuye's witness.

10 If we could usher him in as well, I hope he's listening but --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you repeat? Because I was discussing

12 something with Judge Prost.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: That is Mr. Vanderpuye's witness and he may be

14 outside as well.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have the break if you want.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: That might be simpler.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we can have a 30-minute break starting

18 from now.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

21 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, we just need to make a quick

22 modification or, rather, change the exhibit numbers on the two exhibits

23 that were admitted in the previous session. We have the correct numbers

24 for them now. So what had been admitted as PIC 00034-1516 should in fact

25 be PIC 00035 and what had been admitted as PIC 00035 should be PO 2289.

Page 3656

1 Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Soljan.

3 Is the next witness ready?

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: He is, Mr. President.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good afternoon to you, sir.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I welcome you to this Tribunal and to this case

9 where you are a Prosecution witness. You are soon going to start giving

10 evidence. Madam Usher is going to give you the text of a solemn

11 declaration that is tantamount to an oath, an undertaking, a solemn one,

12 that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the truth.

13 Please read it out and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please take a seat. Make yourself

19 comfortable.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: At the request of the Prosecution, we have granted

22 you some protective measures. These are -- you will be testifying with a

23 pseudonym rather than with your name and surname. And also, public

24 outside this courtroom will not be able to see your face because we have

25 granted facial distortion. Have these been explained to you?

Page 3657

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And are you satisfied with this

3 arrangement?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]. Yes

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye, who is a member of the Prosecution

6 team in this case, will be examining you in chief after presenting some

7 previous statements that you have made. And then I don't know if that

8 will happen today or tomorrow, then you will be cross-examined by the

9 various Defence teams.

10 So Mr. Vanderpuye.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,

12 counsel, gentlemen.

13 Your Honour, I had planned to proceed as I did with another

14 witness and that is to first elicit or qualify the underlying statement,

15 that's proposed to be admitted pursuant to 92 ter, and then to read a

16 summary, and with the Court's permission and hopefully without the

17 objection of counsel, to lead the witness on, I think, a relevant matter

18 relating to these proceedings and, particularly, the execution at which he

19 was present.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see what the procedure or practice is. If

21 there is an objection to a leading question we will entertain it. If not,

22 you will proceed in the absence of objections.

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. May I proceed?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would like to have the witness take a look at

Page 3658

1 P02287, if I may. Thank you.

2 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

3 Q. Sir, I would ask to you take a look at that document, and without

4 telling us what's on it, can you tell us whether you were the person named

5 in that document?

6 A. I am.

7 Q. Okay.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Would Defence counsel like to examine the

9 document?

10 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. Do you recall having signed a statement given to the ICTY on or

13 about the 18th of May 2000?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And prior to signing the statement, did you have an opportunity to

16 read it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And was the statement that you signed a truthful one?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And have you had an opportunity to read your statement prior to

21 testifying here today?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you read the statement in your native language?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And was that the language in which you originally gave the

Page 3659

1 statement?

2 A. I think so, yes.

3 Q. What is your native language?

4 A. Bosnian.

5 Q. During the course of reviewing your statement, did you indicate

6 that it contained certain errors?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. And were the errors that you indicated as follows: With reference

9 to paragraph 1, to the phrase as time passed, most of the people in my

10 village left and went to the UN safe area, with respect to that reference,

11 should that be placed in the context of the events of July 1995?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. With respect to a reference in paragraph 5 to M53, M53 firearms,

14 should that be a reference to machine-guns?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes?

17 MR. HAYNES: I'm just looking at the transcript. There is an

18 ambiguity here because it's not clear whether he's saying he's spotted the

19 mistakes in his statement when he reviewed it, having made it in May 2000,

20 or when he reviewed it on another occasion.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. I think you should address that.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: I will. Thank you, Mr. Haynes.

23 Q. With respect to the errors that I'm speaking of now, are those

24 errors that you pointed out yesterday to me in my office?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3660

1 Q. Now, with respect to paragraph C, there is a reference to persons

2 surrendering who were those who had not crossed the road as we had done.

3 In the context of that statement, is it in fact true that those people who

4 were surrendering were actually ahead of you and not behind you?

5 A. No. They were in front.

6 Q. Okay. And so is it the case that you had not in fact crossed the

7 road yet?

8 A. That's correct. I had not.

9 Q. Now, contextually, the observations that you relate in the

10 statement to the killing of surrendering group in paragraph 7, did that

11 occur after or before your group or you had succeeded in crossing the

12 asphalt road somewhere near Sandici?

13 A. Could you please repeat your question?

14 Q. Yes, maybe I should rephrase.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I don't want to interrupt but my learned colleague

16 is referring to paragraph C on page --

17 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear Mr. Lazarevic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic, the interpreters are not hearing

19 what -- cannot hear what you're saying.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise to them. My learned colleague is

21 referring to paragraph C on page 69, line 6, and going through the

22 statement of this witness, I never noticed any paragraph C.

23 JUDGE KWON: C in the supplement, I take it.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: It should be 7, I'm sorry.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that clear enough now?

Page 3661

1 JUDGE KWON: I wonder whether the Defence counsel were handed over

2 the supplemental information sheet.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it okay now? All right. So we can proceed.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic and thank you, Mr.

6 Vanderpuye. You may proceed.


8 Q. There is a reference -- I'm sorry, you asked me to rephrase the

9 question; is that right? I think that's correct. Okay. There is a

10 reference in this statement relating to the killing of a surrendering

11 group, that's mentioned in paragraph 7. That is the group of surrendering

12 people that had crossed the road or were trying to cross the road. Did

13 that occur after or before the witness had crossed that road?

14 A. It happened before.

15 Q. The reference in --

16 JUDGE KWON: Paragraph 7 is somewhat long, so could you help me

17 find the exact passage in paragraph 7, please?

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, just one moment.

19 If you look to the end of the first paragraph in paragraph 7,

20 there is a reference in the last sentence to the persons surrendering who

21 were those who had not crossed the road as we had done.

22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: And thereafter, the reference that the witness is

24 making are to observations that occurred after that point.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

Page 3662


2 Q. There is also a reference in paragraph 7 to the group proceeding

3 in the direction of Zvornik. And should that be in the direction of

4 Kuslat?

5 A. Yes, yes, towards Kuslat.

6 Q. And finally there is a reference in paragraph 12 indicating that

7 the military police were stationed at the factory where the witness was

8 held captive. Should that also include the army?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Aside from these errors, sir, does the statement fairly and

11 accurately reflect your declaration?

12 A. Maybe just some dates, the last dates, perhaps from the 15th

13 onwards. I would not be able to say precisely, it was such and such a

14 date, because we were so tired and hadn't slept much, hungry. So that a

15 person cannot say specifically and in detail it was such and such a date.

16 Q. Is it fair to say that you have some -- is it fair to say that you

17 have some reservations about the accuracy of the dates that are in this

18 statement?

19 A. Can you please explain your question in a little more detail?

20 Q. Are the dates that are in the statement exact? Or are they

21 approximate?

22 A. They are approximate. They are not 100 per cent exact.

23 Q. Aside from the approximation of the dates and the errors that

24 you've pointed out, is the statement a fair and accurate reflection of

25 your declaration?

Page 3663

1 A. The statement is correct, but as for the dates, I'm not 100 per

2 cent sure about them.

3 Q. Okay. And does the statement, aside from the dates and the errors

4 that we spoke about, does it accurately reflect what you would say if you

5 were to be examined here today?

6 A. If you were to ask me the same thing today I would answer in the

7 same way.

8 Q. Very well.

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would ask that the statement be admitted

10 pursuant to 92 ter at this time.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections? I hear none. So they are so

12 admitted and then they will be marked subsequently or by the registrar and

13 the number --

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I would also qualify

15 that -- first, I guess I should clarify the record and say that it's

16 designated P02288. And also, I would ask that the admission of the

17 document into evidence be under seal at this time.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. May I proceed with the summary?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: The witness was born and raised in the village of

22 Jaglici. At the age of 18, the witness served in the JNA under the

23 national service programme for one year, and in April 1992, joined the

24 Territorial Defence.

25 In July 1995, after many people had left Jaglici for the UN-safe

Page 3664

1 area - that's in quotes, page 2, paragraph 1, a UN-safe area - in

2 Srebrenica, the witness remained in his village together with his wife and

3 13 month old daughter.

4 The witness told his wife that they would only leave when he was

5 no longer able to defend them.

6 That day came on 11th July 1995.

7 At around 8.00 p.m., the witness and other members of the

8 Territorial Defence were ordered out of their trenches in order to meet

9 and discuss what should be done in the face of news about the fall of

10 Srebrenica. It was decided that women, children and the elderly should go

11 to Potocari while the witness and other men were advised to gather in

12 Susnjari. As a result, the witness separated from his wife and infant

13 daughter.

14 In Susnjari, at around 10.00 p.m., it was decided that a column

15 would be formed in an attempt made to walk to the free territory. The

16 column consisted of approximately 17.000 to 18.000 people including some

17 women, children and elderly.

18 That night, the column set out toward the free territory at around

19 midnight. That part of the column which the witness was located -- in

20 which the witness was located set out at approximately -- set out

21 approximately two hours later owing to the size and length of the column.

22 At about 8.00 a.m., on 12th July, the column encountered its first

23 ambush near a stream at the base of the hill of Buljim. This ambush

24 occurred about 500 metres behind the witness and killed approximately 30

25 people.

Page 3665

1 The column however would be ambushed several more times.

2 At about 9.30 p.m. near Kamenica, the column was shelled and came

3 under fire while attempting to cross the asphalt road traversing Konjevic

4 Polje and Kravica.

5 The witness escaped this ambush climbing to higher ground and

6 hiding behind a tree. However, between 500 and 1.000 people were killed.

7 After regrouping and setting off carrying the wounded on

8 make-shift stretchers, the witness came under direct fire as the column

9 was again ambushed. The witness fell to the ground beneath wounded

10 individuals on stretchers and those carrying them. They were all killed.

11 Covered in blood, the witness waited until the shooting stopped and then

12 got up. He found a gathering group from the column nearby and joined

13 them. As this new group eventually began to move, they came under fire.

14 And approximately 200 people died in this attack.

15 At a certain point that night, the early morning of the 13th of

16 July 1995, the witness recalled seeing other refugees engage in strange

17 behaviour including suicides and shootings. Still the group proceeded.

18 They decided to go towards Sandici in order to cross the asphalt road

19 there.

20 Near a clearing close to the road, another ambush ensued and

21 another 200 people were killed.

22 The witness escaped, running into the woods and sliding down a

23 steep embankment. The group walked another three kilometres before making

24 another attempt to cross the asphalt road. Somewhere near Sandici, the

25 group again came under fire. At about 8.00 a.m., the witness could see

Page 3666

1 Serb soldiers on the road running from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, there

2 were APCs on the road, tanks and other military vehicles on the road.

3 Serb soldiers were telling those, telling people who had not

4 crossed the road to surrender. The soldiers told them they would not be

5 harmed, that they would be bussed to Tuzla. They told them that if they

6 did not surrender women and children in Potocari would be harmed.

7 The witness saw about 200 civilians surrender. They were ordered

8 to take off their shirts, which were placed in a pile by the soldiers.

9 Though were lined up into rows and then they were shot down with automatic

10 weapons and anti-aircraft machine-guns. Sometime thereafter, the witness

11 managed to get across the asphalt road with his group some distance away.

12 Lost in the hills, the group descended ending up at a point along

13 the same road it had earlier crossed. There, the witness observed around

14 35 corpses lying on the roadside and smashed as if they had been run over

15 by military vehicles.

16 Soon thereafter, in the vicinity of Pervani, the municipality of

17 Pervani, the group came under fire once again. Half the group decided to

18 surrender while the witness and others fled.

19 After walking for sometime, the group arrived at Konjevic Polje.

20 Trying to cross the road, they soon found themselves in front of a school

21 used by the Serbs as military barracks. The group was fired upon and many

22 were killed. The witness and a few others escaped and eventually

23 proceeded towards Kuslat. The group continued on trying to reach the free

24 territory. They reached Kuslat. They crossed the Drinjaca River there

25 and some people were washed away. They continued towards Snagovo. There,

Page 3667

1 they came under fire trying to cross an asphalt road. They retreated

2 until early the next morning.

3 On the 16th of July, when they managed to get across, two people

4 were killed in this effort, including the witness's neighbour. The group

5 continued on to Baljkovica. There they joined about a thousand people

6 from the column. While the majority of the group turned back towards Zepa

7 because of the Serb lines, the witness together with 21 others, decided to

8 try to get through. While at Baljkovica, the witness saw many black and

9 bloated bodies, corpses.

10 Attempting to cross the Serb lines, the group drew fire and had to

11 wait. The next afternoon, either the 18th or the 19th of July at about 2

12 p.m. the witness awoke to the sounds of calls for surrender by nearby

13 soldiers. From about 20 metres away, the group came under fire. The

14 witness surrendered, as did five other people that he knew. That day, the

15 witness lost track of his brother who was still in the bush when the

16 witness surrendered. The witness would never see -- would never hear from

17 him again.

18 The witness observed that the soldiers wore uniforms bearing a

19 badge which had the colours of the Serbian flag and above a spread eagle.

20 Also written in Cyrillic were the words "Army of the Republika Srpska."

21 It's a quote from page 5, paragraph 11. As the witness surrendered, he

22 was struck by a rifle butt and knocked to the ground. He saw other people

23 who he knew lying face down on the ground. The witness was questioned

24 about his military status. During this time a soldier came up and asked

25 permission to kill a prisoner with his bayonet. He was granted permission

Page 3668

1 to choose one, upon which he chose the witness. The witness was then made

2 to lie down next to the other captives. Soon thereafter, and within only

3 a few metres of the witness, they were taken up and shot to death one by

4 one.

5 The witness was the last remaining when the soldiers were ordered

6 not to kill him so that he could be used for prisoner exchange.

7 The witness was transported to Zvornik by the military police whom

8 he identified as having worn badges containing the three colours of the

9 Serbian flag, together with the cross containing an S in Cyrillic in each

10 quarter. And that's a quote from page 6, paragraph 12.

11 In Zvornik the witness was detained with about 39 other prisoners

12 in a paint and wood varnish factory where he was severely beaten and

13 regularly interrogated.

14 On the 21st July, 1995, the witness was loaded on to a truck as

15 were half the other prisoners and taken to, "A concentration camp near

16 Batkovic." Paragraph 6, paragraph 13. While there, the men were forced

17 to work on farms and in factories. And finally five months later, on the

18 24th December, 1995, the witness was released.

19 That concludes my summary. If I may put a few questions to the

20 witness.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.

23 Q. Sir, are you a Bosnian by nationality?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Please use your discretion if at any time we need to

25 go into private session.

Page 3669

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Judge.

2 Q. Sir, are you a Bosnian by nationality?

3 A. Yes, I am.

4 Q. And are you a Muslim by faith?

5 A. Yes, I am.

6 Q. Can you tell the Court briefly whether you're presently employed?

7 And without telling us where you are employed.

8 A. Yes, I am.

9 Q. And can you tell us what is it -- what it is that you do?

10 A. I'm a worker.

11 Q. Okay. What kind of work do you do?

12 A. I work in construction.

13 Q. How long have you been doing that?

14 A. Not for long.

15 Q. Okay. Can you tell us approximately how long you've been doing

16 that?

17 A. Three months.

18 Q. And prior to that, did you hold any other employment?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, do you live alone?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. Are you married?

23 A. I am.

24 Q. Do you live with your wife?

25 A. I do.

Page 3670

1 Q. Do you have any children?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. And how many children do you have?

4 A. Two.

5 Q. And can you tell us what their ages are?

6 A. 12 and a half and nine and a half.

7 Q. And how long is it that you have been married?

8 (redacted)

9 Q. Okay. And prior to your departure, prior to the time that you

10 left Jaglici, were you active in the armed forces, in the military?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. And for how long had you been active in the military prior to July

13 11th, 1995?

14 A. From April 1992.

15 Q. And can you tell us briefly what it is your responsibilities were

16 in the military during that period of time?

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. Okay. Well, did you have any responsibility --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment. I was going to let you

Page 3671

1 finish this, and interrupt you later. But let's go into private session

2 for a short while, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3672

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you feel the need to go into private session,

13 please feel free to ask that and we will grant it.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. I just wanted to direct your attention, Mr. Witness, to the date

16 that you were captured. That would have been around the 18th or the 19th

17 of July 1995.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, with respect to that day, can you tell us about or around the

20 time of your capture, how that transpired?

21 A. We were exhausted and we fell asleep. Sometime in the afternoon,

22 maybe around 1.00 or 2.00, we heard somebody calling to us, telling us to

23 surrender because we were encircled and there was no exit for us. I

24 lifted my head and looked around and I saw that there were Chetniks all

25 around us. We were encircled and indeed there was no exit anywhere. They

Page 3673

1 called us once to surrender. We kept quiet and then they opened fire but

2 they did not aim at us. Then they called us another time, and asked us to

3 surrender. We kept quiet. They opened fire again, this time they aimed

4 in the air. And the third time they invited us to surrender. We kept

5 quiet again, then they started shooting at us. And then when the shooting

6 stopped and when they called out to us again, then some people stood up,

7 started surrendering and coming out up to the road.

8 I continued being quiet. I didn't want to get up. And then one

9 of their commanders issued an order to them to comb the terrain, to throw

10 grenades from hand-held rocket launchers. I knew that I would certainly

11 die there and then I decided to stand up. I stood up. I started walking

12 up there. I threw my rifle. I came to the road, and they asked me if I

13 had something on me. I said I didn't have anything on me. And then they

14 searched me again. They searched me thoroughly and as I was passing one,

15 one was going to kick me in the stomach, I turned around, so he kicked me

16 in the hip, and while I was passing, another one hit me with a rifle butt

17 and cut my neck with it.

18 As I descended, the five guys that surrendered before me were on

19 their bellies on the ground and as I was approaching them they told

20 me, "You can lie down together with them." I was the sixth in that row.

21 Q. May I stop you for a moment? Can I ask you first if you know

22 approximately where this happened?

23 A. I heard it on the radio when they mentioned the place called

24 Tisova Kosa. There was mentioned on the radio. That's what I heard.

25 Q. Is this that location you believe you were captured?

Page 3674

1 A. I don't know. I believe they referred to it as Baljkovica, but

2 when they spoke about that place on the radio set, on Motorolas, they

3 mentioned something as Tisova Kosa. People refer to that place as

4 Baljkovica, when I came there. And this may have happened some two or

5 three kilometres off the place that they referred to as Baljkovica. This

6 is where I was captured, some two or three kilometres away from that.

7 Since I'm not familiar with the ground, that was the first time I was

8 there, I can't tell you.

9 Q. Now, you indicated also that you had a weapon.

10 A. Yes, I did have one.

11 Q. Can you tell us how it is that you came into possession of the

12 weapon?

13 A. I got it from a man who had been killed, and I came by his body on

14 the road.

15 Q. Now, could we briefly go into private session.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3675











11 Pages 3675-3678 redacted.Private session















Page 3679

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17 (redacted)

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19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are allowing it this time because it basically

23 touches upon the -- some vital part of his testimony, but otherwise,

24 please try to avoid repetitions which could be -- serve no other purpose

25 except by way of repetition.

Page 3680

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do apologise. I intend to be as brief as

2 possible with this witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


5 Q. Okay. You indicated that the soldiers that you had observed had

6 some emblems; is that right?

7 A. Yes. There was the eagle with four letters S in the Cyrillic

8 script.

9 Q. Okay. Did you observe any other insignia with respect to any

10 other soldiers?

11 A. It was the same insignia, except that they were from the military

12 police, the insignia was the same but on these other emblems, it

13 said, "Military police" also in the Cyrillic script.

14 Q. Did you have any indication through any conversation you had with

15 any of the soldiers as to from where they came, what unit they were with?

16 A. The soldier with the bayonet in his hand asked me, "What do you

17 think, where we are from?" I was confused and frightened. I don't know.

18 I thought that they were from Serbia. I said, "I think that you are from

19 Serbia." He said, "No, we are not." I was silent. I didn't want to ask

20 him anything. He himself said that they were from the Krajina. "We are

21 Krajisniks."

22 Q. While you were -- during the course of your capture, were you

23 questioned by any officers or other soldiers?

24 A. You mean when I was brought to Zvornik or --

25 Q. When you were brought to Zvornik.

Page 3681

1 A. An officer did come in. I don't know if his last name was

2 Vukasinovic or Vukadinovic. I'm not sure. It's one or the other. He

3 told me to confess everything I know, otherwise things would not go well

4 for me. The second condition he said was that if I said everything the

5 way it was, that my brother would be exchanged together with me, who

6 remained behind when I was captured at that same place. I didn't know

7 what happened with him. He also intended to surrender but they fired at

8 him, actually, at the four of them, who had stayed behind there. And I

9 simply didn't know what happened to them. Most probably they were killed

10 there. I thought that he was still alive when this man came in and said

11 what he said, and --

12 Q. Were you questioned by any other officers or soldiers while you

13 were in Zvornik?

14 A. Yes. Soldiers were coming in, asking about this and that, all

15 kinds of things, beating me, and I think the next morning I was

16 interrogated. I think it was a security person, a person who worked in

17 security.

18 Q. Can you describe the person that interrogated you?

19 A. He was overweight. He wasn't too tall. He had grey hair.

20 Q. Did he identify -- well, what led you to the conclusion that he

21 was a security officer or worked in security?

22 A. What led me to that conclusion was that I was also interrogated at

23 the camp in Batkovic, and when I was interrogated there, the soldiers who

24 took me there, they would come and get me and they would say, "You're

25 going to the security people for interrogation." And that's where this

Page 3682

1 stuck in my mind, when I was interrogated in Zvornik, I wasn't 100 per

2 cent sure that this man was a security person, but when I was in Batkovic

3 and they said, "You're going to the security people for interrogation,"

4 then it came to me that probably the person who interrogated me before,

5 over there, was also a security man.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye, time is over.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very well, Judge.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more do you have?

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Maybe five minutes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll leave it until tomorrow. We'll leave

11 it until tomorrow. We don't like to keep the staff here unduly and also

12 because there is another Trial Chamber sitting at 2.15.

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very well, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

15 Yes, we will see you again tomorrow afternoon when hopefully we

16 will finish with your testimony. In the meantime, please, between now and

17 then, you're not to communicate or let anyone communicate with you in

18 relation to the matters that you are testifying about.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. No problem.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So I think we can leave. You can draw the

21 curtains because there is members -- there are members of the public in

22 the gallery.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m., to

24 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of November,

25 2006, at 2.15 p.m.