Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4402

1 Thursday, 23 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good afternoon, Madam Registrar. Could you

7 kindly call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much. We've got everyone here except

11 Mr. Bourgon. Mr. McCloskey is absent as per agreement from yesterday.

12 Mr. Thayer has taken over. And when we adjourned yesterday, it was

13 Mr. Zivanovic who was in possession of the floor. There was one notebook

14 which was not available that Mr. Zivanovic wished the witness to have a

15 look at. I don't have an identification number for this notebook.

16 Perhaps you can state that and Mr. Thayer can confirm whether this is

17 available or not. It wasn't available yesterday.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before

19 the beginning of our session today, I checked and the notebook is now

20 available and it has indeed been brought into the courtroom.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It hasn't been brought into the courtroom? Why is

22 that?

23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, it has been brought into the

24 courtroom.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought I heard it hasn't. But I heard you --

Page 4403

1 anyway, so perhaps we can land it over to the witness.

2 Witness, good afternoon to you and welcome back.

3 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-132 [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Thank

6 you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We will make every effort to finish your

8 cross-examination today.

9 MR. THAYER: Just for the record, Mr. President, this notebook is

10 marked with the ERN 0080-4523 on the cover page.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Thayer.

12 Witness, have a look at that notebook, go through it, please, and

13 let us know whether you're familiar with it.

14 In the meantime, you can sit down, Mr. Zivanovic, and give him

15 time.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Could we have in the transcript, the witness is

17 sifting through the notebook in the meantime, please.

18 Yes, I notice General Gvero.

19 THE ACCUSED GVERO: [Microphone not activated]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone.

21 THE ACCUSED GVERO: [Interpretation] Again, I do not have e-court

22 and I don't have the transcript on my screen.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It will be attended to immediately, General. You

24 may sit down. In the meantime I am sure your colleague General Pandurevic

25 will accommodate you and we'll look into that.

Page 4404

1 THE ACCUSED GVERO: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: The others, you don't have any problems with your

3 monitors? Okay. Thank you. Yes, Witness?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have leafed through

5 the notebook carefully, and save for the handwritings that could be

6 similar, I have not found any other elements showing that this could be a

7 notebook from my unit, and I will refrain from mentioning the name of the

8 unit because you all know the unit's name.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, don't, because we are in open session. We

10 can go into private session if Mr. Zivanovic wishes to pursue this matter

11 further.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go into private

13 session? Because I would like to put a few more questions to the witness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Mr. Zivanovic. Let's please go to

15 private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4405











11 Pages 4405-4416 redacted.Private session















Page 4417

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, Mr. Zivanovic, for accused Popovic

7 has finished his cross-examination. We've reverted to open session.

8 Mr. Ostojic for Colonel Beara will be commencing his.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I would prefer to stand if it's all the

12 same to you and you don't mind.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No it's just to make you feel more comfortable to be

14 able to switch off the microphone because I think your assistant now will

15 have a -- quite a job.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sure he's very capable, Your Honours, thank you

17 very much.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure, too. Go ahead.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

20 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

21 A. If you are addressing me, then good afternoon to you, too, sir.

22 Q. Thank you. And I was. Sir, I'm going to cover a little bit about

23 your background and certification you received. You told us yesterday and

24 the day before that you received both a C and B category certification for

25 amateur radio, correct?

Page 4418

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Can you distinguish for me what the difference is between a C

3 category amateur radio operator and a B category amateur radio operator,

4 please?

5 A. The difference between the category C, first difference, would be

6 that category C is a club category, whereas category B could be a private

7 sign, and in essence it differs in terms of content and subject matter to

8 be mastered for passing the exam which means a certain speed for

9 telegraphic signs for a higher number of prefixes, which means names,

10 abbreviated names for countries. Then a higher number of acronyms that

11 ham radio operators use to communicate, and a significant knowledge about

12 electronics. This refers to category B, which requires for one to be

13 knowledgeable about electronics.

14 Q. And what about category A? How do you distinguish category A from

15 B, sir? Basically the same way, that category A is the more experienced,

16 more knowledgeable amateur radio operator, correct?

17 A. An amateur of A category, first of all, differs from the rest in

18 the constraints applicable. B category operator is constrained in terms

19 of the strength of antenna radiation in certain volumes that operators of

20 A category may use as opposed to those of category B.

21 Q. Sir, do you possess any professional certifications or diplomas

22 involving surveillance operations?

23 A. Well, the term surveillance, as I heard it in my interpretation,

24 in my headset, I know that I passed a course for commander of visual and

25 observation stations. If this is what you are referring to.

Page 4419

1 Q. Well, close. Do you know if there exists any professional

2 certifications or diplomas for operators in the field of intelligence or

3 surveillance?

4 A. No, sir, I don't know.

5 Q. Are you familiar, sir, with whether or not the JNA at the time

6 that you were in the JNA and subsequent to that, had a specialised school

7 for intercept training?

8 A. During my national service in the JNA, I did not learn about that,

9 sir.

10 Q. How about after? Did you ever come to learn that, sir?

11 A. Yes. Immediately prior to the war.

12 Q. What was that called, sir, that one-year specialised training?

13 A. I don't know, sir. I don't know the title.

14 Q. Fair enough.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: If we may have Exhibit P-02297 up? It's under seal

16 but if we can just not have it broadcast and I think I could ask him

17 questions and we should be able to follow it rather --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you for that, Mr. Ostojic. Let's see

19 it and we are in open session.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: As long as it's not broadcast I could just identify

21 it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, I agree.


24 Q. Sir, before us you have Exhibit P-400297. It's a list of

25 individuals, if you could identify using only the number of on the

Page 4420

1 left-hand side of the name of those individuals, starting with number 2,

2 which individuals had a certification as an amateur radio operator and

3 then tell us, if you will, also, what that certification was.

4 A. Person under 3 had a certificate but I cannot really recall either

5 C or D. Then the second-next name --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay, let's redact -- let's see if it

7 shows up in the transcript in any case, but we still have to redact. It's

8 not -- the name mentioned by the witness is not in the transcript but he

9 did mention it so transmission broadcast of the proceedings of that part

10 needs to be blocked, referring to -- starting page 18, line 23, until

11 here. Until here. I mean, I want to play it safe.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: Maybe I can do it a different way.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He sticks in the numbers without mentioning names.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: I wanted to shorten it but I will go through the

15 numbers.

16 Q. Number 2, sir, do you know if he had a certificate as an amateur

17 radio operator, just yes or no?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. How about number 3? Did number 3 have a certificate as an amateur

20 radio operator?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. What certificate did he have, to the best of your recollection,

23 what category?

24 A. Just said I don't know which category.

25 Q. And do you know if he had a category that was higher than yours, a

Page 4421

1 B category?

2 A. That did -- was not so, sir. I'm certain.

3 Q. Do you know, sir, if the person identified in number 3 had the

4 same category as you, that would be the B category?

5 A. As I said, I did not know which category certificate he had.

6 Q. Fair enough. How about number 4, sir? Was he certified as an

7 amateur radio operator?

8 A. No.

9 Q. How about number 5, sir, was he certified as an amateur radio

10 operator?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what category certification did number 5 have?

13 A. At least a C.

14 Q. All right. The next one, number 6?

15 A. Same, at least a C, category C.

16 Q. How about number 7?

17 A. I'm not sure about number 7 but I think he had no certificate.

18 Q. And number 8, sir?

19 A. Number 8, no.

20 Q. How about number 9, sir?

21 A. You don't need to go through all the numbers until number 12. The

22 rest, apart from number 12, for whom I'm not certain, did not have any

23 certificates.

24 Q. I'm sure I understood you sir so 9, 10 and 11 did not have any

25 certificates as an amateur radio operator and for number 12, you're

Page 4422

1 uncertain, correct?

2 A. Yes, sir. May I add that I'm not sure about person number 10,

3 whether that person had a certificate.

4 Q. Fair enough. I understand now. Thank you. Sir, did you ever

5 give a statement or were you ever interviewed by the Dutch authorities?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And on how many occasions, sir?

8 A. On several occasions.

9 Q. Can you help narrow it down between let's say the numbers 10 to

10 100?

11 A. It's below ten.

12 Q. Do you know if that was in connection with the report that we from

13 time to time used here as being called by the acronym NIOD, NIOD?

14 A. I apologise, but I'm not familiar with this acronym.

15 Q. That's fair. Maybe I'll try to remember what it is. I think I

16 had the Netherlands institute of war documentation but they have

17 abbreviated it from what I could see as NIOD. If you're not familiar,

18 sir, you can just tell us that and we'll move on.

19 A. Sir, I was contacted by persons from that institute -- from this

20 institution.

21 Q. Do you know looking at the exhibit that we have in front of us,

22 P-02297, what other individuals, 1 through 12, also gave statements to the

23 representatives of the Dutch authorities?

24 A. Sir, I don't know whether you will be happy with my answer, if I

25 tell you only about the persons that I'm sure of. And I am not excluding

Page 4423

1 any others. Is that going to satisfy you as an answer?

2 Q. It's very easy to delight me. So that will be sufficient. Thank

3 you, sir.

4 A. I'm certain about some, and I don't know anything about others.

5 There are some that I'm not certain about. I'm not sure about person

6 under 11. I believe so but I can't be sure of that, if that can be of any

7 assistance to you. Person number 6, person number 5, I know that they

8 were contacted by Dutch authorities and the same goes for person number 3.

9 I'm not sure about number 4, though.

10 Q. Anyone else?

11 A. Of the persons listed here, including person number 1.

12 Q. We'll get back to that NIOD report a little later. Let's talk

13 about the equipment that you had at the mountain top, if I could refer to

14 that. I think we have in the past in open session. Sir, are you familiar

15 with a piece of equipment called an RUP-12?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Can you tell us what that is?

18 A. Yes, sir. It's a radio set. It's a receiver, and the frequencies

19 are 30 to 70 megahertz. It has three switches for choosing channels, and

20 the lowest channel leap is about 50 kilowatts and the power is about two

21 kilowatts but not always. It depends on what channels it works. The

22 battery is below the radio set. In a nutshell, it is a military radio

23 set, a radio receiver and transmitter.

24 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, given the descriptions that you've

25 given us about the megahertz, the kilowatts, et cetera, that this is a

Page 4424

1 sophisticated piece of equipment?

2 A. Sir, given the conditions under which this device can operate, and

3 given its advantages in that respect, I would say yes. However, when it

4 comes to its design, I would say that it is rather obsolete.

5 Q. And, sir, am I correct that you're familiar with the RUP-12

6 because you, in fact, had used that sometime prior to 1994, correct?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. And, sir, will you agree with me that your unit did not have this

9 RUP-12 in 1995 at all, correct?

10 A. I must say that I'm confused. You -- your question is, "Your unit

11 did not have," so am I supposed to say yes or no? Let me explain, then.

12 My unit did not have that device in 1995.

13 Q. Can you tell me, sir, why you think that RUP-12 is an obsolete

14 type of military equipment?

15 A. Given the range of devices that followed RUP-12, one can say that

16 the latter is rather obsolete. However, it does have its advantages, one

17 of them being that it can operate under all sorts of conditions, even the

18 most extraordinary ones, based on the characteristics that it features,

19 its durability and reliability t could still be a usable device. However,

20 when contrasted to some other devices that are currently on the market,

21 I'd say that it is rather obsolete, very obsolete.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That confirms the suspicion I had in the back of my

23 mind, that when he said in the first place that it is a rather obsolete

24 piece of equipment, whether he refers to the present or to --

25 MR. OSTOJIC: I was going to go to that. Thank you for reminding

Page 4425

1 me of that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I was tempted to put the question before.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: At any time, Your Honour.

4 Q. So it's obsolete today but we are talking about 1995. Was it

5 obsolete in 1995 as well, in your opinion?

6 A. Yes, sir. It was. Let me just give you an example to illustrate

7 this. If you take a so-called Motorola, this is so much more practical

8 and it has so much of the features that make it more usable.

9 Q. Sir, as you yourself say, some of the advantages or features of

10 the RUP-12 is that it helps reduce distortion, interruption, in

11 conversations that you might be intercepting, does it not?

12 A. It does, sir. However --

13 Q. Okay. Please continue. I'm sorry.

14 A. Propagation on this type of waves can be the cause for somebody

15 to -- who wants to listen into that station at a distance, to be disrupted

16 by signals that come from even a further distance. Still, when this

17 device is listened to within the prescribed range, or even a bit further

18 than that, within certain limitations, the RUP can be recorded in three

19 steps on the analyser.

20 Q. Now, what was the receiver that you were utilising in your unit on

21 that mountain top in July of 1995, if not the RUP-12? It was a military

22 unit first and then, if not, what type of receiver were you using?

23 A. If you're asking about my platoon and the receiver RUP-19, as far

24 as I know we didn't use that. You also asked me which receiver it was.

25 We had several radio amateur receivers, the AR-3.000, ICR-100, ICR-7.000,

Page 4426

1 ICR-7100, and for a while, ICR 9.000.

2 Q. And can you tell us --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Thayer?

4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I don't want to interrupt my learned

5 colleague, unless I have to. I just noticed that answer at line 19 to 20

6 is unclear, at least to me, as from the transcript. He's referring to a

7 unit in answer to question, what did you use, but then it says, "as far as

8 I know we didn't use that." And there can be some clarification of the

9 record, I just don't know whether that's a translation issue or perhaps

10 I'm misunderstanding but it appears unclear.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You are 100 per cent right.

12 Mr. Ostojic, I leave it in your hands, please.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Sir, there seems to be some confusion in the record and it's

15 probably my fault but can you just tell us what RUP machine you used on

16 your mountain top with your unit and which receivers you used?

17 A. Sir, in our platoon we only used receivers. I don't know whether

18 I should proceed or do you want to say something.

19 Q. Yes. Just so the record is clear, just list out the receivers. I

20 think you had already, but just so the record is clear, and I think we

21 have them, just list out those receivers or only those receivers that you

22 used in your unit on that mountain top in July of 1995.

23 A. Yes, sir, of course. I've already done it, and I shall repeat it.

24 We used AR-3.000, which was a radio amateur device, an ICR-100, an

25 ICR-7.000, an ICR-7100 and for a while we also used an ICR-9.000. But not

Page 4427

1 at that time, so you can omit that. We had used the last one before that

2 time.

3 Q. Okay. Sir - just before the break, I think we are break being at

4 quarter of - you testified in the Blagojevic case, correct?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Now, the Blagojevic case, on pages 3847, line 3, and also on lines

7 8 through 9, you make the following statement and this is in connection

8 with what Your Honour asked you the other day regarding telephone

9 communications. I'm just trying to have a better understanding because I

10 didn't quite understand your answer. You state there, "There was a

11 rupture in our communication." And then you -- further down on lines 8

12 through 9 you state, "We were facing lots of practical and technical

13 problems."

14 Now, sir, with respect to that, my question is: What time period

15 was there a rupture in your communications?

16 A. Believe me, this doesn't jog my memory at all. I don't know what

17 this refers to. This is just a short quote from the whole thing, so I

18 can't be of any assistance.

19 Q. Fair enough. How about the fact that you were facing lots of

20 practical and technical problems? Do you recall when that was, sir? When

21 were you facing lots of practical and technical problems?

22 A. I know that at the beginning, when we first arrived as this

23 facility, we experienced problems, one of them was getting to the mountain

24 itself. I remember that. I also remember that we had our problems with

25 water supply. We received water from some pumps from a valley that had to

Page 4428

1 pump water into our reserve up on the mountain, and the whole setup caused

2 a lot of problems.

3 Q. And what year was that, sir? What years did that cover?

4 A. I'm talking about the winter of 1993 and 1994. This is when those

5 problems were very much pronounced. Also, we had electricity outages, and

6 I even think that there were some restrictions that there were some

7 planned outages of electricity. This was done on purpose.

8 Q. Now, sir, you spent sometime talking about cryptographic

9 equipment. Do you know what that equipment is?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You mean the make? Or ...

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Just generally, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we deal with that after the break?

13 MR. OSTOJIC: At your pleasure, Your Honour, I'm sorry.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think because if it's a whole description of the

15 function of the equipment, I think it will take a couple of minutes. So

16 let's have a -- we need a -- 30 minutes now because of that -- 30-minute

17 break. Thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic would like to address the Trial

22 Chamber. Go ahead.

23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly, Your Honours.

24 Regarding the issue that was raised about the Prosecutor's submission

25 regarding Rule 92 ter, the Defence for Mr. Nikolic does not have any

Page 4429

1 objections to the qualification of the witness. However, we would like to

2 point to certain circumstances that we have noticed in the submission, and

3 after that, I would like to announce a period of seven days which we

4 require in order to be able to respond to that submission.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We had prior information of that and you

6 will be granted those seven days, and I suggest that the rest of the

7 others that haven't come back to us try to tie up with you, Madam Nikolic,

8 so that if you have a common front on this it would be better.

9 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, yesterday you inquired of the

11 tentative dates that we may have planned to those two witnesses --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, the 7th and the 10th.

13 MR. THAYER: The 7th and the 11th respectively, Your Honour, I

14 think that gives us enough time.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the normal period of time would lapse on the

16 7th so we had in mind of advancing it in any case, but Madam Nikolic

17 indicated the 28th. More or less we can extend that to the 1st, even to

18 the 1st, so that's not a problem. The important thing is that we have

19 some kind of advance notice on what the situation or what your position is

20 so that we can act accordingly.

21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 So, I can bring in the witness?

24 Yes, Eva, please.

25 What happened to the temporary co-counsel that was appointed to

Page 4430

1 replace Mr. Bourgon during his absence?

2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I will explain, Your Honours. He

3 was appointed just in case I cannot be in the courtroom. He follows from

4 his office and in case that I'm not able to attend sessions, he acts as a

5 stand-by and replaces me in order to avoid any delays.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. Because there were

7 rumours that he decided to walk it all the way from -- but so that's not

8 the case. All right. Thank you.

9 And I suppose, Madam Fauveau, that Mr. Petrusic is functioning in

10 his role as co-counsel now? Or not yet?

11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, I haven't yet received the

12 decision from the Registry.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. But you are aware of our decision, I

14 suppose.

15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you very

16 much for that.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ostojic, you may proceed.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Mr. Witness --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And go --

22 MR. OSTOJIC: I was informed, thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You have all the time you require to finish your

24 cross-examination.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: Much appreciated, Your Honour.

Page 4431

1 Q. Mr. Witness, sir, before the break we were starting to discuss

2 cryptographic equipment. Just generally if you could describe what

3 cryptographic equipment is?

4 A. Cryptographic equipment consists of a device that protects

5 information, be it verbal or digital information, and so on and so forth.

6 Q. Now, is it your testimony, sir, that your unit on that mountain

7 top in July of 1995 actually had cryptographic equipment at the

8 facilities?

9 A. I'll tell you what we had. We had a computer, as our means for

10 communication, which was connected to the network modem, and protection

11 was performed by using certain codes or keys. Those were used on the

12 computer and that's how we protected information. There was a certain

13 code consisting either of figures or letters that had to be typed in and

14 that was used to pack the contents of the text that were shipped towards a

15 different user.

16 Q. Okay. I don't fully understand your answer and forgive me for

17 that. Can you identify the type of equipment by name or initials that you

18 utilised on that mountain top in July of 1995 that would fulfil the

19 description of a cryptographic piece of equipment?

20 A. Sir, I've told you what I know, and I've listed the equipment that

21 we had. Now, as to the way this was done, I've already told you I'm not

22 best suited to talk about that. You should ask the person who was in

23 charge of that, the cryptographer, the person who was added to our unit

24 from the platoon PEB unit. This person shared everything with us and did

25 everything for us but by formation he belonged to the unit that was part

Page 4432

1 of our unit and I'm sure of -- I've made myself clear now.

2 Q. And what is that person's name?

3 A. I don't know whether you want me to really give you his name.

4 Q. I really do.

5 A. I apologise, I don't know whether we are in private session.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry, I didn't know that it may be an issue but

7 we'll go into private session if that's a concern if that's okay with the

8 Court.

9 MR. THAYER: That was just my --

10 MR. OSTOJIC: That's fair, thank you, Mr. Witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4433

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.


15 Q. Just a couple more questions, Mr. Witness, in connection with the

16 equipment. The search for frequencies that the personnel, including

17 yourself, at the mountain top in July of 1995 was conducted always

18 manually, correct?

19 A. The frequency scanning could the done the way you describe it or

20 it could also be done by automatic search of frequency or scanning, for

21 which there was a programme and we could scan one part of the area that we

22 found interesting and the device was capable of searching those

23 frequencies on its own. It would stop at certain frequencies that would

24 appear as a shift visible on the scale and it would also stop at certain

25 periods, as required by us. It could stop for a longer time, it could

Page 4434

1 skip the certain frequency, or it could stay on it for five seconds, for

2 example. This is what our machinery could do.

3 Q. But forgive me nor asking, in the pictures that we saw of the UHER

4 and of the receiver with the other components, I didn't notice an

5 automatic directional searching mechanism on that machine. Are you

6 telling us that the machines that you utilised actually had an automatic

7 directional searching function?

8 A. Yes, of course. Every ICOM device belonging to that period had

9 that possibility, and did what I have just described. Would you set up a

10 programme in a programme for zero to nine, which means ten given

11 programmes. You decide on the frequency area and the frequency shift,

12 together with the type of modulation that that device would search. And

13 it is only then that it starts operating either manually or automatically

14 depending on what we wanted to do at the time.

15 Q. Well, do you remember, sir, if this automatic directional search

16 function actually stopped when it reached a frequency or did you have to

17 depress a button so that it could continue to scan for frequencies?

18 A. Sir, this depended on the requirement of the person who searched

19 the area. Any of the three ways could be utilised. Likewise, there is a

20 difference between the search of the RRU-1 area. This is like doing

21 things manually, by any other radio set, although this equipment had a --

22 much better functions. However, when it came to RRU-800, this could not

23 be done automatically. As for the quality and for information, one had to

24 do it manually based on previous information on frequencies and so on and

25 so forth.

Page 4435

1 Q. Thank you for that. If we can now talk about the analysis and

2 processing and reporting of the function of your unit in July of 1995,

3 sir, can you first tell me what an analyst is?

4 A. An analyst is a person who uses certain documents and knowledge in

5 order to form a picture of a person, a group or a formation, and all this

6 based on the given elements, so that person draws conclusions based on

7 those elements.

8 Q. And you'll agree with me, will you not, sir, that in part, an

9 analyst would try to figure some things out, wouldn't you?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And yesterday, actually, my learned colleague who is celebrating

12 Thanksgiving, he asked you to help him on page 14, line 20 to figure out

13 certain meanings of an intercept that you took down on July 14, 1995,

14 correct? I think he used the word "figure out." Do you remember that?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a problem or what?

16 MR. OSTOJIC: Maybe he didn't understand the question,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. He has to tell us.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: I thought you were asking me.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a problem with you answering this question,

21 Witness?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The interpreter apologised to me and

23 said that he is having a problem because he doesn't know which word

24 exactly I used.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then you can repeat that word. Okay,

Page 4436

1 let's simplify it. You can repeat that word and the interpreters, I'm

2 sure, will be as helpful as they have always been. So Mr. Ostojic asked

3 you --

4 MR. OSTOJIC: I can --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: If you can.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll shorten it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm not sure that you used the word. My learned

10 friend Mr. McCloskey at the OTP used the word when he was discussing the

11 intercept with you yesterday, specifically page 14, line 20, I believe,

12 and he used the word "figure out," and we kind of agreed that figuring

13 things out is what an analyst does and I just wanted you to recall that.

14 And do you agree with me that that's the discussion you had in trying to

15 figure out a certain intercept dated the 14th of July 1995? Do you

16 remember that?

17 A. Yes, sir. I remember that, and the word that you used if it

18 referred to the area scanning, I don't know whether the best word would be

19 an analyst. Maybe it would be, partly, in its elementary form. However,

20 when we use the word analyst, we thought of them as very capable people

21 who worked down there at the command and who really performed miracles

22 with the material that they had on their hands.

23 Q. And sir, is it true and correct that you are not an analyst?

24 A. It is true, sir.

25 Q. And sir, is it also true and correct that in fact no one at the

Page 4437

1 mountain top in July of 1995, from the list that we have previously seen,

2 no one there was even remotely considered to be an analyst, correct?

3 A. That is absolutely correct, sir.

4 Q. Now, let's talk about the processing of certain information. Is

5 it -- am I correct that there was no real-time intelligence that was being

6 processed at your unit in July of 1995? First let me ask you, do you know

7 what real-time intelligence is?

8 A. Well, sir, I would appreciate your explanation of the term.

9 Q. I'll be happy to share it with you. Sir, is it first your

10 testimony that you don't know what real-time data is?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, there may be -- I'm not saying that

12 there is but there may be a -- would be a problem with interpretation of

13 these terms. I would suggest that you explain to him the -- both terms

14 and then you ask him whether he is familiar with that concept.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough.

16 Q. Sir, real-tame data or real-time intelligence is information that

17 is processed from one unit to another on a spontaneous or immediate basis,

18 meaning at the time that it was being recorded, at the time that it was

19 being taken down, that that material is transmitted directly to a superior

20 or to another unit that it was reporting to. Real-time meaning, at the

21 exact time or close to that time.

22 A. Yes, sir. Respective of the fact that this has been a -- this

23 term may be all encompassing, I do believe that I understand what this

24 means. It means to send information as quickly as possible to somebody

25 who is more capable of processing such data or information. Is that what

Page 4438

1 you meant?

2 Q. Close. But not as quickly as possible but in real time. At the

3 exact time, spontaneous, when it was occurred. And if you're not familiar

4 with it, we can move on, sir.

5 A. We could not relay information in real time.

6 Q. In fact, sir, are you aware that the Dutch authorities in their

7 NIOD report referred to your processing system at your unit as being

8 crude?

9 A. I don't know about that, sir, about this term.

10 Q. Sir, let's talk about the processing of this information and I'll

11 try to, just in a nutshell, do it. When you heard the -- when you had the

12 frequency set at a certain conversation that you were anticipating to

13 intercept, you would write it down on a scratch sheet of paper and then

14 the next step would be, from that scratch sheet of paper you would enter

15 into a logbook that we've seen the last day or so, and then from the

16 logbook, sir, you would then give it to the computer technician, if I can

17 call him that, or the computer person, and that computer person would then

18 type in the information from the logbook. And then from the computer, you

19 would - what - print it out and then forward it, depending on whether it

20 was a daily report or a priority or urgent report? Is that basically the

21 process, sir?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Okay. Well let's talk about reporting now. When you have a

24 report that says priority or urgent, who makes that decision that it's a

25 priority or urgent report given the fact that you acknowledge no one

Page 4439

1 including yourself was an analyst who analysed the intercepts that you

2 were receiving?

3 A. Believe me, sir, any of the operators could make this assessment.

4 By the same token, the person could differentiate from what we had, and in

5 terms of what the command would tell us about the type of conversation or

6 the description of that state to us a certain conversation. Which means

7 that we did not have any significant problems in this respect. If we did

8 have, it was only in the beginning, where there were some objections,

9 criticism. But this does not -- is not valid for the period that you are

10 asking me about.

11 Q. Okay. Well, we'll stick to the period I'm asking you about, July

12 of 1995. Can you tell us, sir, if you had a courier always available at

13 your facility just in case there was a priority or urgent message that

14 needed to be run over or carried over to your command?

15 A. Sir, we did not appoint a person who would be a courier unless

16 there were special circumstances when a courier would be appointed, but

17 when it was business as usual, we would not appoint a courier. If we had

18 a need for one, then this would be done by the person for whom it would be

19 easiest to do.

20 Q. Well, do you know on July 14, 1995, who was the couriers that you

21 used?

22 A. Trust me, I could not remember that, sir.

23 Q. Since we are talking about reporting, I'm a little confused on

24 another issue that I'm sure you can help me with. When you have a daily

25 report, is that a report that is being sent to the command on a daily

Page 4440

1 basis?

2 A. I think that I've discussed this already, and -- but I can always

3 repeat, and further explain it. In a period where there would be no

4 combat activities, where -- when we would not be required to report as

5 quickly as possible and when we did not have any time sensitive

6 information or intelligence, regular reports would be sent in the evening

7 between 7.00 and 10.00 p.m., sometimes even later but in principle there

8 was so.

9 Q. I mean we saw the daily reports which I understood to mean once a

10 day. Are you telling us that the daily reports on July 14th were sent out

11 more than once a day?

12 A. I think it, in the heading daily report, that was always put on

13 top of the page. I'm not sure whether it was put on each. Even when we

14 had several reports in a day, we would use this daily report heading.

15 This means that we may have been mistaken in using that heading.

16 Q. Okay. Is another reasonable explanation perhaps that above the

17 line where it actually has the words, "daily report," that that was at

18 least according to you someone that was coded or locked out because of

19 some security reason?

20 A. I think I have not understood your question but I'll -- I can

21 understand that part which I understood and which I presume you're asking

22 me about. You mean only the heading was coded? Is that what you're

23 trying to say?

24 Q. Well, I don't know exactly what was coded but could you at any

25 time above the line on the computer printout be able to change anything

Page 4441

1 that was above the line in those reports that you sent out, including the

2 title, which is apparently on some, if not all, the reports which says,

3 "daily report"? Were you able to alter or modify that?

4 A. I think that I explained everything I knew about that already, and

5 the cryptographer may be the right person to try to explain that.

6 Q. Thank you. Fair enough. Sir, let me talk about another topic,

7 it's called, generally speaking, chain of custody. And you mentioned a

8 little bit about that the other day when you said that the log books that

9 you kept were actually retained in a safe. Do you remember that general

10 conversation?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Now, when, sir, did you give your logbooks, specifically I think

13 we are talking about logbook 9 involving the July 1995 intercepted

14 conversations that you purport to have taken, when did you turn those over

15 to the command?

16 A. I cannot really tell you from the top of my head, believe me.

17 Q. I do. Did the command ever give you a receipt or any

18 documentation verifying the date in which you turned these logbooks over

19 to them?

20 A. No, sir. But during your asking of this question, I sorted out my

21 thoughts about else I could tell you about the previous conversation. If

22 command would not require that certain material would be delivered or --

23 then during a certain shift that material would be handed over or turned

24 over during the subsequent shift.

25 Q. So as you sit here, sir, do you know when in particular the

Page 4442

1 logbook which is identified as logbook 9, when that was turned over to

2 your command?

3 A. No, sir. But I can presume when it was supposed to be turned

4 over.

5 Q. Okay. When?

6 A. It was supposed to be turned over during the subsequent shift.

7 Q. And, sir, do you know an individual by the name of Sveko Tihic?

8 A. I heard the name in my headset. No. It's not known to me.

9 Q. So you wouldn't know what rank, if any, he had, correct?

10 A. I wouldn't know, sir.

11 Q. Who, sir, at the command would you give your logbooks at the end

12 of the shift that we were just previously discussing, to whom?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you answer that question, if by

14 answering that question he would identify the posting, then we'll need to

15 go into private session.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: We can just --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go into private session.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4443











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Page 4445

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8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

Page 4446

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Do I need to repeat the question, Your Honour? I

2 will, I will.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Once we are in open session, I would suggest you do

4 so.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


8 Q. Sir, based on the experience that you have, please explain what

9 the significance if any is of making changes, modifications, alterations

10 or additions to logbooks.

11 A. Yes, sir. At any rate, each modification, alteration, addition,

12 may impact the credibility of such a document.

13 Q. But don't you agree with me, sir, that it would not only impact

14 it, it could dilute the potential reliability of such a document?

15 A. I believe that in this respect, the question is pretty -- of such

16 a nature, this is a very unspecific question. I'm trying to answer it,

17 though. It could happen, sir, on a case-by-case basis. I wouldn't dwell

18 into that -- delve into that but it would depend on the case in hand.

19 Q. And we are just generally talking here about those --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But because of the generality of the question, and

21 the kind of information you're trying to seek from him, I mean, Mr.

22 Ostojic, come on.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: We will get to it Your Honour, but I have one last

24 question on this point.

25 Q. But generally speaking, sir, wouldn't you agree with me depending

Page 4447

1 on the length of a text and depending on the number of changes,

2 modifications, additions or alteration that is someone would make, it can,

3 in fact, destroy the reliability of such a logbook or entry, correct?

4 A. Sir, had you stated in your question, if it pertained to just one

5 text, but if it pertains to a whole notebook or logbook, I wouldn't dare

6 answer such a question.

7 Q. That's fair. I was relating and I misspoke. I wanted to say

8 document and I said logbook. No, we are talking about one document, sir,

9 and as you put it, just one text.

10 A. Let's put it this way: My question -- my opinion about what

11 you're asking me about is as follows: The meaning of a certain part of a

12 certain document could be altered in the way that you hint at, which in my

13 opinion depends on which part of the text is the salient and the important

14 part, and there are people who make such assessments.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Enough, enough. I think let's move on.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: We are, Your Honour, thank you. I mentioned that it

17 was the last question on that so thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Sir, do you know the extension or telephone number of your boss or

19 superior at your headquarters in 1995?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The question of whether he knows it? You're not

21 asking him to tell us the number because if you are --

22 MR. OSTOJIC: Of course, no, no.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: If you, are then we need to go into private session.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: No. I don't need the number.

25 Q. Did you, sir, in July --

Page 4448

1 MR. OSTOJIC: May I restate the question, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.


4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness for your patience. Sir, in July of 1995,

5 when you were on that mountain top with your unit, did you know the

6 extension or telephone number of your boss or superior?

7 A. Believe me, I cannot tell you now if there is such an information

8 in my documents, make use of it by all means, please, sir.

9 Q. Maybe I stated the question awkwardly. Did you, in July of 1995,

10 know your supervisor or your superior or your boss's telephone extension

11 or number?

12 A. Yes, sir. You probably mean his desk where he worked and not his

13 personal telephone number at home. I used to know his telephone number at

14 the command.

15 Q. Fair enough. And every one of those 12 or so people in your unit

16 in July of 1995, they also knew the number of the superior or boss at the

17 headquarters, did they not?

18 A. I wouldn't dare to go into such level of detail but I believe that

19 sufficient number knew that the person, the cryptographer, had this

20 telephone number and he knew it. I can only presume that a squad leaders

21 knew the telephone number. I couldn't dare to say that the other

22 personnel knew the telephone number.

23 Q. Now, sir, we were talking about figuring out certain items that

24 you wrote down in this intercept that was transcribed. There was one in

25 particular. Did you have a -- how did you decode the word "upper house"?

Page 4449

1 A. Sir, my interpretation was upper house. I believe that it was --

2 used the taller house in that conversation. I understood that word by its

3 literal meaning, that that meant his superior, but in respect to those

4 whom I had to forward the material to, that was the upper house.

5 Q. Okay. We'll get to that in few minutes, I hope. Let me ask you

6 this, because you spent time the other day on page 36, lines 10 through

7 12, actually on Tuesday, discussing when my learned friend was asking you

8 questions about being familiar with voices from the Main Staff, again page

9 36, lines 10 through 12. Sir, do you have any experience or training in

10 voice identification?

11 A. My training was in radio work, an and this was spent on ham

12 radios, and this is what I had in terms of training. However, I believe

13 that I owe to my good hearing that I can actually recognise voices.

14 Q. All right. So other than your good hearing, you have that

15 experience or training in voice identification, correct, nothing else?

16 A. That's correct, sir.

17 Q. How about voice recognition? Do you have any experience or

18 training in voice recognition?

19 A. No, sir.

20 Q. I want to read, if I may, to you, sir, from page 36, lines 10

21 through 12 of Tuesday's transcript and I want to talk about there for a

22 little bit. It starts, "When someone introduces himself to you ten or a

23 hundred times, you should be able to tell that that's that person the next

24 time. They don't need to introduce themselves."

25 With respect to that question or with respect to that answer, sir,

Page 4450

1 my question is: Why such a big range, ten to a hundred times? When were

2 you, sir, able, after how many times to recognise a voice?

3 A. It was not always the same, sir. First of all, there were typical

4 features of one's voice that imposed themselves and made you remember that

5 person. And the -- second of all, the typical characteristics of the

6 transmission was another feature that identified somebody's voice. And

7 those two sets of characteristics were the ones that helped us recognise

8 and identify certain people's voices.

9 Q. Sir, as you sit here today, having reviewed your logbook in

10 preparation for your testimony this week, having testified in the Krstic

11 case, having testified in the Blagojevic-Jokic case, can you tell us, how

12 many times did you purportedly hear the voice of Mr. Beara?

13 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that, sir.

14 Q. Do you know, sir, that it was more or less than ten?

15 A. Believe me, I don't know. Really I don't know how many times.

16 Q. Do you know, sir, in looking at your logbook number 9 that no

17 where prior to the purported July 14th 1995 entry was Mr. Beara mentioned,

18 referenced or identified as a participant in an alleged conversation?

19 A. I was not aware of that.

20 Q. In July of 1995, sir, did you even know what division, corps, or

21 section of the army Mr. Beara was in?

22 A. Let me put it this way: It's very difficult for me to say that as

23 I sit here today. I don't know whether I knew it at the time or not.

24 However, there must have been somebody who could have put me in the

25 picture in that respect, but I wasn't really very much interested in that.

Page 4451

1 Q. Okay. We'll come back to that in a few minutes. Sir, let me show

2 you Exhibit P-02312, which is for identification the packet of materials

3 that my learned colleagues gave us yesterday, that we spent some time on

4 yesterday. And once that is up, I'll ask the question. Sir, you have the

5 first page, I believe, of that document, and, in that page, in glancing

6 through it, I see that there were 11 out of 15 daily reports drafted on

7 purportedly the 14th of July 1995. Do you know that?

8 A. You said one of the 15 daily reports dated the 14th of July 1995?

9 Q. No?

10 A. Yes, I know that.

11 Q. They missed the other one but I'll try it again. Sir, of these 15

12 daily reports that I've counted and my learned friends can count them, of

13 those 15, 11 are marked as being daily reports. Did you know that? So

14 11, not one but 11 out of 15 are marked simply daily reports on the top

15 centre above the line of this exhibit P02312. Did you know that?

16 A. If you say so, I'm willing to believe you. There is no need for

17 me to check that.

18 Q. Sir, if we look at the next page of this document, with the

19 Court's permission and the assistance of the usher, the next page I think

20 has ERN number 0320-5316, the third page, sorry. That's the second of

21 these reports. We are not going to go through all of them but I do wants

22 to focus our attention on that and my learned friend yesterday mentioned

23 the words below the line on the right-hand side, which is written in

24 English, "Very urgent." Do you see that?

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 4452

1 Q. Now, this report, at least from my understanding of your

2 testimony, this report, because it's marked very urgent would have been

3 sent out immediately and it wouldn't be considered a "daily report," am I

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, you're right, sir.

6 Q. And am I also correct, sir that the "very urgent" is below the

7 line because of these keys or codes or locks that you had that the analyst

8 wasn't able to put the words "very urgent" anywhere above the line,

9 correct?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

11 MR. THAYER: Simply, Your Honour, because we have had discussion

12 about the word analyst, I don't know if that was an intentional use. It's

13 been translated as analyst, that's all.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: I thought that was only restricted to certain aerial

15 images but I didn't know what were why the analyst couldn't -- fair

16 enough.

17 MR. THAYER: I'm simply referring to the discussion that pertained

18 to the technical role of somebody you described as an analyst which I

19 believe his testimony clarified, that's all.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: I understand now.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You can deal with that because --

22 MR. OSTOJIC: I understand now.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: At the moment, I couldn't really take down your

24 reaction. And I think it was pretty obvious, but -- so, let's go ahead.


Page 4453

1 Q. Sir, am I correct that the "very urgent" is below the line because

2 of these keys, locks or codes that you earlier testified to and that the

3 surveillance operator wasn't able to put the words "very urgent" anywhere

4 above the line, correct?

5 A. Sir, I would not wish to discuss the technique that the

6 cryptographer used and I would not offer any assumptions as to what they

7 could or could not change. I've already told you what I know about that.

8 However, it seems to me that the different thing is at stake. This

9 material this CSB, SDB Tuzla, that is the addressee, and it was sent very

10 urgently. Whether this was sent through our connection, through our unit,

11 I wouldn't know. I could not draw that conclusion based on this material.

12 I don't know whether this material ended with us or whether it was

13 forwarded. I don't know what the requirements and agreements were. In

14 any case, the person could have sent it this way. When the body of the

15 text starts, one of my assumption, which could be explained by the person

16 who actually did it, would be that the body of the text was not on the

17 floppy disk or the text above the line was not on the floppy disk. I

18 don't know how they exchanged their materials. I'm sure that the person

19 who actually did it could be of more assistance with that regard.

20 Q. Thank you. Now if we could turn to the 15th daily report of the

21 14th of July 1995, which has ERN number 0320-5339, please?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer?

23 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I think we need to go into private

24 session with respect to some of these documents given, if they are going

25 to be scrolled to a certain point there may be some identifying

Page 4454

1 information.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I take your word for it. Let's -- do you disagree

3 with that, Mr. Ostojic, or no?

4 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, I always prefer to be in open session. I

5 wouldn't scroll to the name but -- whatever, that's fine. That's fine.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Or else, unless we agree not to

7 broadcast the -- visually the documents. All right? Then we can remain

8 in open sessions, with the understanding also, Witness, that while we are

9 taking all these precautions, you need to do the same thing and you must

10 not mention any names directly. If you need to, then tell us and we'll go

11 into private session. Yes. We have document number 15, yes.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed, Your Honour? Yes? Thank you.

13 Q. Sir, we have document number 15 in front of us on the e-court.

14 Here, if you can see that the word "PRIORITET" is actually typed in above

15 the line and in the other instance we discussed, the word "very urgent"

16 was typed below the line. Do you see that?

17 A. Yes, I can see that, sir.

18 Q. Can you just one more time explain to me how these keys and locks

19 worked with items that you previously testified to that were above the

20 line that were purportedly locked out and were unable to have any access

21 by anyone in your unit?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer? You're getting fed up, I suppose.

23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we have had the line of questioning on

24 a number of occasions and the answers have been consistent.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: There question has been asked and re-asked, and

Page 4455

1 we've had constant uniform responses to it. Just -- again, we are still

2 in an indulgent mood. One more time and that will be it.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: That's fine. I don't agree with my learned

4 colleague that they're consistent but I'll move on.

5 Q. Sir, if you look at the initials or the abbreviation, I should

6 say, below the line, "UCC ...". Do you see that?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Okay. And that is an abbreviation for the word "participant" in

9 B/C/S, is it not?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Now, we know so that from your prior testimony that the word

12 "priority" was added by someone else in your logbook and we also know

13 from your testimony, sir, that the other participants that were added,

14 namely "X" and "Y" were added by someone else; is that correct?

15 A. As for the X in the heading, I'm not sure. The colour is somewhat

16 indistinct. There is black and blue at the same time, but you're right

17 about the Y.

18 Q. And nowhere in the section that was consistently prepared by your

19 unit and its members under participants, nowhere in this 0320-5399 no

20 where does it mention or reference Mr. Beara as being a participant in the

21 conversation, correct?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Now, sir, we've seen that you made, in my opinion, forgive me for

24 saying this, several, if not many, changes, additions, alterations and

25 modifications to this logbook entry. Why didn't you just simply add, as

Page 4456

1 you have made with other alterations, the name Beara right after the name

2 Y?

3 A. Could you please scroll up just a little bit? I would like to see

4 the relevant portion. I believe that I have already answered that

5 question several times. I've already explained how this BE was added. At

6 first it was B, and then e was added. It had been listened a number of

7 times and when this all ended, it turned out to be the way you see it now.

8 Q. Well, and that's --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't answered the question. The question

10 is: Mr. Ostojic is referring you to that first -- or actually it's the

11 second line, where, strictly speaking, you are defining the subject matter

12 of the intercept, and there, you have Major Jokic stated, put down. You

13 have Badem put down. Someone else put also X and Y. The question is, why

14 didn't you also insert the name Beara on that line? That is the question.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me put it this way: All the

16 while I had a switch board operator under Badem, every time, and after

17 that, another person would join the conversation whom I could not hear,

18 and then when the switch operator called that person, judging by the

19 course of the conversation led by Jokic, in my book, from then on, this

20 was Beara.

21 Q. We'll talk about your book in a few minutes, sir, and how you came

22 to that conclusion. But right now I want to know, since you went through

23 the trouble of correcting the actual line which designates who the

24 participants are and another person in your unit apparently added other

25 participants in the -- on that line, why didn't you, sir, at that time,

Page 4457

1 when you were adding the name Jokic or identifying the duty officer from

2 Palma or correcting it from being Palma to Palme, why didn't you just

3 simply add the name Beara on the top line where it clearly lists in every

4 document the participants in certain conversations?

5 A. You're right, sir. I have should have done that. I should have

6 added him as well. However, just like you said it yourself, "epsilon" and

7 "priority" were added by another person, and I suppose that this was done

8 in haste. This is the only reason I can propose. And finally, when the

9 text was edited, it was sent as soon as possible to reach the other party

10 as quickly as possible. And this is the only explanation I can offer.

11 Q. Sir, isn't it reasonable that given what you claim to be your

12 experience and certifications and given the multiple intercepts that you

13 yourself took down and transcribed with your unit, that in fact in no

14 other area in the logbook do you omit to list the actual list of

15 participants, if you believe that they were actually participants in an

16 intercepted conversation?

17 A. In the title I also believe that this was a mistake.

18 Well-spotted, I should say.

19 Q. Sir, in preparing for your testimony here and in your prior two

20 testimonies that you've given in the ICTY and your interviews before the

21 Dutch authorities, sir, did you ever find an intercept that you wrote down

22 that had in excess of 15 changes, modifications, additions or alterations

23 except this one, on the 14th of July 1995, involving Mr. Beara?

24 A. If my answer can help you, if I put it this way, I would say that

25 I don't think so. I don't think I ever have.

Page 4458

1 Q. And I looked at some of those logbooks, sir, and I don't find that

2 there were any even remotely close to the number of changes,

3 modifications, alterations that you made in any other entry others than

4 this one of the 14th of July 1995 which you purport to involve Mr. Beara.

5 Would you agree with that?

6 A. I apologise, because of the translation that I received, I would

7 kindly ask you to repeat the question and I'll try to focus on it.

8 Q. I'll try to shorten it as well, sir. Can you identify for us,

9 sir, if any other intercepts of yours had changes, modifications,

10 alterations, or additions like the one that we are discussing now, namely

11 the intercept involving, purportedly, Mr. Beara?

12 A. Sir, if you exclude part of your assertion from your question,

13 then I could answer. It's very difficult for me to answer your compound

14 questions. If you could break it down in two then I could take each of

15 the portions of your question at a time.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You're going to oblige.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Sir, when I say "change" I'm referring to, like, for example, the

19 change that you highlighted for us from a small D to a capital D in one of

20 the entries. On this entry that we are talking about, we are only talking

21 about this entry. When I say modification we are talking about the name

22 Beara where you went with a black pen and then you stated, I believe, that

23 you, in the second letter of the word, clarified that it was an E.

24 Alterations, sir, we are talking about the circle that you made with the

25 black ink and the dot that you made with the black ink next to the word

Page 4459

1 "hello." For addition, sir, we are talking about the word "priority"

2 which was an addition to the text. We are talking about the word or

3 letters X and Y. We are talking about the additions, sir, of the letter E

4 after the capital letter B on no less than eight occasions. Sir, can you

5 tell us if any others intercept that you have ever reviewed, given your

6 two prior testimonies, your preparation in this case, your interviews with

7 the Dutch authorities, have you ever seen, of yourself, any such purported

8 intercept with so many changes, modifications, alterations or additions

9 like this one?

10 A. I don't think so, sir. There were texts, however, which involved

11 a lot of noise, and I know that in such conversations there might have

12 been a lot of corrections, but not as many as we saw yesterday. For

13 example, letter B was altered on five or six occasions and the rest of the

14 things that you've mentioned in your question.

15 Q. And I think with all due respect to you, sir, there were probably

16 another three to five, what I could find, changes or alterations in your

17 intercept that the -- my learned colleague didn't cover with you because

18 they were simply in a different part of the conversation, correct?

19 A. Yes, you're right.

20 Q. Sir, is it true that you were unable to hear the person you claim

21 was Mr. Beara at the beginning of the purported conversation?

22 A. I apologise. I gave my previous answer in a haste. I rushed into

23 it and I did not complete my answer. If you don't mind, I would like to

24 complete my previous answer but also answer the question that you have

25 just put to me.

Page 4460

1 Yes, I know that there were such differences that you have just

2 referred to. I'm aware of that and I agree with you. However, when it

3 comes to whether I heard Beara or allegedly heard him, the document speaks

4 for itself. I adhere by what I wrote down, and as to what I did not write

5 down, what I omitted to write down, I'm really sorry about that.

6 Q. Let's look at the conversation because we happen to have it

7 conveniently in front of us, sir, and isn't it a fact that you were indeed

8 unable to hear the person you claim was Mr. Beara at the beginning of the

9 purported conversation? You couldn't hear him, right?

10 A. Sir, it's very difficult to determine. I believe that this was at

11 stake for the most part but we can also assume that there were some

12 ambiguities that he murmured or there was some other reason. It's not

13 easy just based on the dots that -- to say that I couldn't hear him. I

14 might have heard him but I might not have understood him. Whatever the

15 reason, none of them can be confirmed with certainty.

16 Q. Well, Mr. Witness, quite candidly, if you did hear him at the

17 time, don't you think that you would have written down what it is that he

18 said on your logbook?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: He's just explained that, Mr. Ostojic. He's just

20 explained that. "I might have heard him but I might not have understood

21 him. Whatever the reason none of them condition confirmed with

22 certainty," so I think he's given you his answer.


24 Q. Let me ask you it was my understanding that when you put three or

25 several dots flex to a participant in a conversation, that that meant you

Page 4461

1 could not hear them and therefore you could not write down what the

2 contents of their conversation was. Now, is it your testimony, sir, that

3 it was perhaps that you couldn't understand him?

4 A. As I say, sir, on the basis of those dots, I cannot really say

5 what was the right reason for them being there. So that I wasn't certain

6 or something that certainly wasn't usable wouldn't be put down, and this

7 is why three dots would be put in that place because that information

8 would have been lost or unutilisable.

9 Q. Okay. And, sir, is it fair to say, looking at this logbook and

10 this transcript, that it was not usable or it was lost, that you weren't

11 able to hear that person you claim to be Mr. Beara on six separate

12 occasions? Correct?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. So does that help us maybe have a better understanding if you

15 were simply unable to hear him or you just couldn't understand him

16 purportedly?

17 A. Well, since we've clarified this once, I do not believe that there

18 is a need for us to dwell on it further. Either of these, if they are in

19 the text, that means that they stand in for something that is unusable.

20 Q. And do you, sir, as a non-analyst, as a surveillance operator, do

21 you make that decision that words by someone are unusable?

22 A. You know, sir, that there were six of us on that facility at that

23 moment. It doesn't matter but there was more people than one single

24 person. And if all of us had tried and said, "No use, it cannot be done,"

25 then only then would we give up.

Page 4462

1 Q. Okay. Sir, let's go down to the bottom where you made one change

2 but without -- it's not being broadcast so we are okay. Down at the

3 bottom, sir, where you have the word, well, this might be difficult

4 because it's not typed out properly. How about if we --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session. Let's make it

6 simple, Mr. Ostojic.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour, and I would ask that we have

8 the original logbook put on the -- placed on the ELMO, please.


10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4463











11 Pages 4463-4466 redacted.Private session















Page 4467

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I have full trust in your caution.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Sir, we are going to place on the e-court now 2D39, which was the

9 document we previously looked at, which was your purported intercept entry

10 of 14 July 1995. So if we could have that back on? No. Those are his

11 notes on the UHER.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment, one moment, one moment.

13 Let's go into private session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4468

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: The transcript does show that it was IC 000440 but

8 really I need IC 00040. Which was yesterday used, I believe, on the first

9 page of that document. If we could just scroll down so we could have the

10 full ...

11 Q. Sir, we are looking here at the -- there exhibit, IC 00040 and my

12 question to you, sir, on that page, it's obvious that you were not

13 introduced or Mr. Beara purportedly did not introduce himself at any time

14 at this point, correct?

15 A. Yes, sir. He did not introduce himself.

16 Q. Now, I understood your testimony, from page 56, line 18, Tuesday,

17 to be that if a participant doesn't introduce himself in a conversation,

18 that you would write the letter X next to the conversation that you would

19 hear. Am I correct?

20 A. Sir, if you exclude the possibility that somebody else may

21 introduce that person in the conversation, then you're right.

22 Q. I don't know if I understand your answer. Who would have

23 introduced him other than himself?

24 A. Sir, I believe that I've already covered that ground, but doesn't

25 matter, I can reiterate. When we come to a certain part of the text where

Page 4469

1 Mr. Jokic is in conversation with other persons, and then suddenly he

2 agrees to a conversation and we see who sought him, then this is it, this

3 is how we know how it happened.

4 Q. Okay. Now, if we can look at the next document, which is page 2,

5 IC 00041, which also can be in open because I think the third page is the

6 one that cannot, this is the second page of your log?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. You have now used "your" --

8 MR. OSTOJIC: The log.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, "Your log." This is what we have. I don't

10 know if this is being transmitted, this page.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it? Why not?

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: What I'm worried about is that if Mr. Ostojic

15 says, "your," automatically now anyone would know that this is this guy's

16 handwriting and there will and few people who might recognise it. That's

17 my concern. All right. I am assured that this document has not been

18 broadcast, but was it broadcast yesterday when he was marking on it?

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I think we can safely proceed,

21 but try to avoid --

22 MR. OSTOJIC: I will, I will.



25 Q. Sir, we are looking at this second page, and within that page,

Page 4470

1 sir, am I correct that six out of the eight entries that you have, that's

2 placed in there under "Be," after you had modified it, that there is no

3 words that you could hear or sufficiently enough capture, as you put it,

4 to be able to write down?

5 A. Yes, sir. For us to be able to use it, yes, exactly how you say

6 it.

7 Q. And on Tuesday, my learned friend asked you, on page 54, line 23,

8 how important accuracy was in taking down purported intercept

9 conversations and I think your answer was, very important. Do you

10 remember that?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. And would you agree with me, sir, that the notations that you make

13 are also important, such as when you make dots or put a comma, a period,

14 or a question mark or symbols like that? That's also not only important

15 but very important?

16 A. Yes, sir. That is very important.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Before I forget, things being what they

18 are now, even though this document was not broadcast, I want to make sure

19 that it is, when tendered, it is kept under seal, because the number has

20 been mentioned by you, so it needs to be under seal, even though it's not

21 signed. It only has his pseudonym. It needs to remain under seal. And

22 likewise, I think the two -- the other two, the one that preceded it and

23 the one that followed it. All right?

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It should be under seal. Thank you.

Page 4471

1 Sorry for that interruption but we have responsibility that we

2 need to attend to.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: Of course.

4 Q. Now, the interests of time, sir, let's take a look at the two out

5 of eight portions of a conversation that you purport and claim that it is

6 of Mr. Beara. Do you see that, sir, there is two separate occasions that

7 you supposedly record what that person that you claim is Mr. Beara said in

8 response to Major Jokic, do you see that?

9 A. Yes. I can see that at the bottom of the page.

10 Q. And just so we are on the same page, there are seven words total

11 in that -- those two sections, correct? If we can perhaps have the usher

12 scroll up and we could focus on the bottom, I don't believe it's on that

13 page, any identification.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This is if you recall yesterday we had got to there,

15 we couldn't move any further down, and we had the same document brought up

16 clean and he marked number 16, and we had a question, a whole argument

17 what was the last number on the previous one so we need to go to the next

18 one.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: No, no, no if we could just zoom in.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not there.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, part of it is, I think. We will take it one at

22 a time if it's okay.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


25 Q. This is one part, sir, of the two parts of the eight conversations

Page 4472

1 that you purport or claim belong to Mr. Beara. Do you see that, on the

2 bottom of the page it starts with "Be," then a dash, and then the text.

3 Do he see that?

4 A. Yes, sir. I can see six words and two punctuation marks.

5 Q. Perfect. That's what I see as well. Sir, the first set of words,

6 we will take them three at a time if you don't mind. The first set of

7 words it says, "Why number 155," do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, sir, at that point, do you think, because accuracy is so

10 important, that a question mark should have been placed after that "why

11 number 155" instead of a comma?

12 A. Well, since we see that the sentence is composed of two questions,

13 as far as I know about orthography, I placed the question mark at the end.

14 Q. Okay. I think in the English version, by the CLSS, they actually

15 put a question mark right there but that's not of your concern. Let me

16 ask you this, sir: In understanding or interpreting this, "why number

17 155," is it -- am I correct, sir, that the person you claim to be Mr.

18 Beara doesn't know why or is uncertain as to why he should be calling

19 extension 155? Would that be accurate?

20 A. While I was listening to the conversation, this is how I

21 understood it. Had I understood it differently, I would have modified it,

22 and I would have shown and demonstrated that I wasn't thinking that this

23 is how it unfolded.

24 Q. Well, sir, as you sit here, do you know whose extension 155 was at

25 that time?

Page 4473

1 A. Maybe I knew at the time, sir, but I do not know now.

2 Q. Well, let's look at the next three words, sir, where you purport

3 that the conversation that was intercepted and claim that it was of Mr.

4 Beara, he says right there, "Where is that?" Correct?

5 A. After the part of the text, "where is that," there is a question

6 mark, yes, sir.

7 Q. I'm not asking you that, sir. I'm asking you for the words as

8 well. It's translated, "Where is that?" Correct?

9 A. Yes. It's stated so.

10 Q. Now, sir, is it clear from that that we can deduce that in, in

11 fact, the participant that is speaking here has no idea whatsoever where

12 extension 155 is, nor what extension 155 was, correct?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

14 MR. THAYER: I think we've reached the limit of this witness's

15 competency to answer that question, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. How can he answer that question? You

17 can argue that but he can't answer that question. You can argue the point

18 later.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may proceed. I understand that.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: He will not answer the question.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: If that's the Court's ruling, that's the court's

22 ruling.

23 If we can have 3D31 placed on the e-court, please. If I may this

24 should not be broadcast because it does have the individual's

25 identification on that.

Page 4474

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think there is an understanding, the technical

2 staff know exactly how we are proceeding so -- yes.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: As they are bringing up it I'll ask him.

4 Q. Sir, as you sit here today, you know whose extension 155 was in

5 July of 1995, do you not?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. Sir, do you remember that in May of 1995, the Office of the

8 Prosecutor had you write in your own handwriting an intercept which

9 contained the extension 155?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

11 MR. OSTOJIC: 1999.

12 MR. THAYER: Judge Kwon just asked.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: May 1999. Thank you, thank you.

14 Q. Do you remember that, sir?

15 A. I cannot remember this detail now.

16 Q. In this exhibit that we have in front of us, if we can turn to ERN

17 number 00778135, maybe that will help refresh your recollection, sir.

18 It's the same Exhibit number 3D31.

19 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated].

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, that's your handwriting on this document that we see in front

22 of us, 00778135 which is captioned "handwriting sample notebook blank" and

23 below it is your handwriting below the typed text, is it not?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And below it you actually are writing from a different intercept,

Page 4475

1 some extension 155. Do you see it?

2 A. Yes. There is also a secret code next to it.

3 Q. Okay. And the secret code which was broken is the

4 word, "Panorama," correct?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. And for our sake again, although I think we know it, Panorama was

7 a secret -- purportedly a secret code word for what, sir?

8 A. It was the Main Staff of the VRS army.

9 Q. Now, sir, do you reasonably think that Mr. Beara, who was chief of

10 security in the Main Staff, that he would not know the extension of 155

11 and who it belongs to?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I mean you're asking -- I don't even need to

13 hear your objection. You're asking the witness to explain for Mr. Beara.

14 How can he? I mean, you can argue that point later, but you can't ask the

15 witness to explain whether supposedly if this is Mr. Beara, who is

16 speaking here, whether he was -- he knew or didn't know whether he was

17 pretending not to know, there are so many possibilities. I mean, why ask

18 the witness to give you that information?

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, because, Your Honour, I think -- because,

20 Your Honour, given what the Court said on Monday, to put my case to the

21 witness, I am doing just that and because of the fact that it's not that

22 someone may have said something but it was a mistake by the operators.

23 Given some of the things that this witness has said and some of the other

24 documentation that the Court will see, it's not only highly unlikely,

25 Your Honour, but it's impossible that the person this individual thinks

Page 4476

1 was Mr. Beara was in fact Mr. Beara because he would have known and he

2 should have known that extension. And he recorded it as such. And now we

3 are going full circle in light of the fact that this witness specifically

4 said that there was distortion, couldn't hear six out of eight times. And

5 it's not an argument that I wish to make at this time, but I would like to

6 put to the witness that given all that, is it possible, likely and clear

7 that he made a mistake and that that witness, that person that he claims

8 was Mr. Beara, was in fact not Mr. Beara?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Then, I have a confirmation that you've got it all

10 wrong, Mr. Ostojic. The way to go about it then is very simple. You put

11 to the witness that in your opinion, it's highly unlikely if not

12 impossible that Mr. Beara in his capacity that you mentioned would not be

13 privy to P155 and you ask him whether he would stand by his affirmation in

14 these documents that it was Mr. Beara who was talking at the other end.

15 But not the way you have put it.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: How can you expect him to tell you how clever or not

18 clever or how informed or misinformed was Mr. Beara at the time, if it was

19 Mr. Beara, who was at the other end of the line on that day? Because that

20 stands to be proved in any case.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. I'll accept that question but before I put

22 that question to the witness, may I ask him one other?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not stopping you from putting questions that are

24 legitimate ones.


Page 4477

1 Q. Sir, we know from not only while were you there in that mountain

2 top in July of 1995 and in your meetings with the Prosecutor on May 11th,

3 1995 -- 1999, that the Panorama 155 extension belonged to an individual

4 named Toso. We know that, right?

5 A. Maybe you know that, sir.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... your handwriting on the

7 e-court which has "Panorama 155," dash, some word, another dash and then

8 the name Toso. Do you see that? And the word that's in between is what?

9 A. Boss or head.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... after the word sef or boss,

11 what is the name?

12 A. Boss and then Toso.

13 Q. Now, sir, as the Court put it and I'll try to put it just as

14 fairly to you, and I apologise in advance if I don't, if we presume or if

15 I tell you that Toso was a person by the name of Tolimir and extension 155

16 was for the Main Staff, as you've indicated that panorama is the code word

17 for Main Staff, and if I put to you, sir, that Mr. Beara was the chief of

18 security in the Main Staff, wouldn't you agree with me, sir, that it's not

19 only a possibility and not only a likelihood, but it's rather clear that

20 the person that you claim you heard in this intercepted conversation on

21 14th July 1995, was not Mr. Beara?

22 A. I would beg to differ, sir, with regard to the text, because I am

23 not the one who can alter history.

24 Q. Sir, is it fair to say that a person who was chief of security of

25 the Main Staff, that it's reasonable to infer that they would have known

Page 4478

1 or should have known the extension 155 of the main headquarters and

2 particularly of its superior?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You have come back to what I've told you please

4 don't ask again of the witness. I mean, the witness cannot answer that.

5 So next question.


7 Q. Sir, if we look at the last word that you have of this

8 conversation, that you purport to have overheard from a person you claim

9 to be Mr. Beara, it's one word, I would rather that we don't put it on the

10 screen because it might capture the name, but the word is, and I think we

11 could all see it, is the word "molim." Now, the Prosecutor on Tuesday

12 suggested that when he read that the word molim means or is in interpreted

13 as being "yes." Will you, sir, agree with me, and just for the court's

14 record it's on page 19, line 18 of I believe yesterday's transcript, page

15 19, line 18, of yesterday's transcript, will you -- do you agree that the

16 word molim can have different meanings depending on the context of a

17 conversation?

18 A. Sir, you know very well that I had to write down what I heard. I

19 was not in a position to interpret the meaning of the word. Maybe you

20 should talk to one of my superiors about that.

21 Q. Okay. Do you recommend I talk to the same two individuals you've

22 identified before for us or is there someone else?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I think, if I understand you

24 well, I mean, if I don't, please correct me, but if he's listening to this

25 conversation and the word "molim" is used in his language, what he will

Page 4479

1 put down is "molim." It's only when it is interpreted for our purposes

2 that the question can arise whether it has been translated as it should or

3 whether it has been given another colour or another interpretation which

4 is not the right one.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: True.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So if that is the case, why ask him? Because he

7 heard "molim," I would have put down "molim."

8 MR. OSTOJIC: True, but there is another part of it, Your Honour,

9 if I may.

10 Q. Sir, in a different context the word "molim" can actually be used

11 with a question mark after it if you say something like "excuse me"

12 because you didn't hear a question or "excuse me" because you didn't hear

13 part of a conversation, isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. However, I am not to be the judge of that.

15 Q. That's fair, sir, but given that the six words prior, that, as you

16 claim, are attributed to Mr. Beara, have a question mark, since he

17 questioned not only where but what or who, and then apparently Mr. Jokic

18 says something else, and then the response is "excuse me," but there is no

19 question mark, you being a man who said that accuracy is very important,

20 would it have been inaccurate or wrong to put a question mark there and,

21 if so, why didn't you, sir?

22 A. Sir, I didn't put a question mark because when I heard that

23 "molim," I heard it the way I transcribed it.

24 Q. Sir, I'm going to just quickly because I know we are running out

25 of time and I apologise to the Court and to my colleagues, and to you,

Page 4480

1 sir, on November 4th, 2003, you were asked about the Dutch institute and

2 the study that was done with respect to the intelligence in Bosnia or the

3 Bosnian intelligence and this was the question on page 3873 of that

4 November 4th, 2003, transcript. It states as follows: "And they are

5 quoting from the Dutch institute here, line 12. "Taking the Bosnian

6 efforts as a whole, it must be concluded that the service responsible for

7 signals, that's" - you know what signals is - quote, "was simply too

8 undermanned and poorly equipped to fulfil its mission adequately though

9 there were many intercepts the processing, analysis and reporting were

10 totally inadequate, intercepts were not typed out immediately in a word

11 processing programme but transcribed by hand in a logbook. Tapes bearing

12 messages were reused and hardly any use was made of computers to process

13 and disseminate the data flow."

14 Your answer, sir, was as follows, answer on page 3873, line

15 21, "Madam, I have to tell you that in view of the fact that you have read

16 out a paragraph by, as you say, an eminent expert writer or whatever, who

17 wrote about what was happening at the time, about a whole army. What I

18 can say is that I partially agree with what you have read." You continue

19 on: "But for me to know precisely what the conclusion of the book is, I

20 would have to read the whole book, if you will allow me to say."

21 Sir, I'm asking you with respect to the NIOD report which is the

22 Dutch institute study that was done on the Bosnian intelligence that was

23 read to you essentially some of their conclusions specifically of your

24 unit and others, where they felt that it was inadequate, poorly manned,

25 understaffed, poor equipment. Sir, you answer part of that question by

Page 4481

1 saying that, "I partially agree with what you ever read." Can you tell

2 me what parts you disagree with, sir and what parts you agree with the

3 conclusions made of NIOD of your intelligence given the fact that you and

4 many others were interviewed by them?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I will -- do you think you can answer this

6 question in the next five minutes? Or will you still require the whole

7 text of the NIOD report to be made available to you to read to answer the

8 question, the compound question.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may Your Honour I'm only focusing on the parts.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a perfectly legitimate question but I want to

11 know whether we can bring it to a conclusion.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: We can, I think.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You have also thought a lot of other things today

14 and you were wrong.

15 So, Mr. Witness?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman has noted very well

17 that I agreed with one part of that statement, i.e., that text that had

18 been read out to me. I agree that we were poorly equipped, that there

19 were -- there was a lot to be desired in terms of the machinery, such as

20 receivers, antenna systems, scanning systems and so on and so forth.

21 However, those things were more than satisfactory for the work that we

22 did. And as for lacks that we felt, there it was a lack of tapes,

23 recording devices. In that respect, I would agree when it comes to the

24 equipment. Also, we had a lot of problems with the lack of a constant

25 source of energy. That's why we had to use batteries and generators. We

Page 4482

1 used generators all the time. And this all was an additional burden. If

2 we had had good conditions, we would not have needed all that. I also

3 agree that we were undermanned. We worked around the clock. People were

4 exhausted. We did what we did and that's how things were. In view of our

5 requirements I believe that we met the demands of those who had appointed

6 us and they were satisfied with our work. That's why I'm saying that in

7 that part of the context within the context of analysis and other

8 estimates, I'm sure that you will have an opportunity to hear the person

9 who will have more to say about that.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, sir.

11 Q. And just quickly if you can just on with the Court's permission

12 flip -- to your right, the book on the first or the cover page, if you

13 don't mind. The book that's to the right of you that's on the ELMO, if

14 you can just please close that book for a moment.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Or maybe Madam Usher could help. Yes, and we could

16 have that on the screen. That would be helpful.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: On the screen not on the ELMO. He wants to see the

18 cover page.


20 Q. Now, we discussed briefly there the cover page and I know we are

21 running out of time where it says do you see 29/II, correct?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Now, is it your testimony that there should exist a book that has

24 29/I, since this is supposedly the second part of that book 9, number 29,

25 correct?

Page 4483

1 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered that yesterday. He said that is

2 correct.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: I didn't get -- I -- I didn't think it was quite

4 clear.

5 Q. Sir, I've asked the Office of the Prosecutor to find and give me a

6 book logbook 29/I, and they told me that they don't have it and don't know

7 if it exists. Do you know what happened to that logbook 29/I?

8 A. I don't know, sir. I would like to help you, if I only could.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, sir.

10 Thank you, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. We stop here but before we

12 adjourn, I wish Mr. Thayer and all the others that come from the US and

13 are celebrating Thanksgiving day, a belated Thanksgiving day. Your

14 partners and friends and family members still over there, across the pond,

15 on the other side, are about to start enjoying the day. So enjoy the rest

16 of it. Thank you.

17 Tomorrow morning, we have other business in another case, and we

18 won't be able to start the sitting before at least 10.00, but please be

19 here at 10.00 because if we finish the other business before, we will

20 start at 10.00. Otherwise we will start a little bit later but it won't

21 be much later. Thank you.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of

24 November, 2006, at 10.00 a.m.