1 Monday, 22 January 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.13 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
10 Unfortunately Judge Kwon encountered a major obstacle on his way to
11 the Tribunal this morning, and he told us it's better that we start
12 and then he will join us when the sky has cleared up and he can come
14 I notice that Mr. Nikolic is still not with us. I take it that we
15 still have in force his declaration that he would like the proceedings to
16 continue in his absence?
17 Yes, Madam Nikolic.
18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. The rest of the accused are here.
20 Mr. Ostojic is not here. Will he be joining us in the course of --
21 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, Mr. Ostojic also has some difficulties
22 getting here like Judge Kwon. We hope he will be here today or tomorrow.
23 Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much.
25 And the Prosecution it is Mr. Nicholls and Mr. McCloskey. I see
1 no one else. All right.
2 This is witness number 67, I take it now.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: That is correct, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning to you, sir.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Tribunal I welcome you as a witness
7 for the Prosecution. Before you start giving evidence you are required to
8 make a solemn declaration that you will testify the truth. Madam Usher is
9 going to give you the text of our solemn declaration. Please read it out
10 aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We have granted you three protective measures. One
17 is the use of a pseudonym instead of your usual name. The other one is
18 facial distortion, and last but not least the voice distortion. I take it
19 these have been explained to you? I just want a confirmation from you
20 that they are to your satisfaction.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, who is lead counsel for the
23 Prosecution in this case, will be examining you, and after that you will
24 be cross-examined by members of the various Defence teams.
25 Mr. McCloskey.
1 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-128
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
5 Q. Thank you, witness. If you could look at this pseudonym sheet,
6 PO2370 and tell us if that's you.
7 A. Yes, that's me.
8 Q. And, Mr. President, if we could go into private session for his
9 personal details and if I could sit down to -- so it will help me turn
10 this machine off?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, by all means, Mr. McCloskey.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 6118-6119 redacted. Private session
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Now, when you went to work at the northern site, was there an army
14 unit there doing the same kind of work you were doing?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And were you familiar with the -- the techniques and the equipment
17 that the army was using to intercept radio communications?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was your group doing the same kind of work using this -- roughly
20 the same equipment and the same techniques?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. Okay. So I will not go into the -- all the detail of those
23 various things, but I'll try to concentrate on perhaps some of the
24 differences between the -- the work you were doing and the work the army
25 was doing. So let me first ask you, you've told us how many people there
1 were. Can you tell me what kind of shift regimen you worked?
2 A. There were two people in each shift. I had four men. I was
3 mostly there very often. There were two-person shifts that lasted from
4 five to seven days, depending on the circumstances.
5 Q. And what kind of room or rooms did you work in when the work was
6 going on?
7 A. Since this was a military facility, we were using their
8 infrastructure, security, food, all the things that we could not provide
9 ourselves. They gave us one room in that facility which we worked in and
10 we practically slept there.
11 Q. Okay. Can you tell us how many sets of equipment you had in that
12 one room?
13 A. There were three sets of equipment. Later we added one more
14 teleprinter in order to control the teleprinter traffic, and then we had
15 the opportunity of using some hand-held radio sets, but I wouldn't really
16 count them in. So we really had three sets of equipment when we were
17 talking about scanning and intercepting the radio relay routes.
18 Q. And is that for the period of July 1995, you're talking about?
19 A. I'm talking about the period of that whole year. The whole 1995,
20 we can say that, yes.
21 Q. Can you briefly describe what those -- each of those sets of
22 equipment did?
23 A. Yes. We had several antenna systems, if we can call that that,
24 and they reached the room and then we had equipment that received the
25 signals divided it or distributed into channels, and then were connected
1 to the recording devices, the so-called UHER devices. That would be a
2 brief description.
3 Q. And can you tell us what in particular, if you did have a
4 particular area of concern, what were you listening for, what types of
5 enemy communications or what part of the enemy were you listening for?
6 A. Since we were a civilian intelligence and security organisation,
7 we were there to collect intelligence relating to that service, but we did
8 not ignore information that we received via our devices, so we recorded
9 other things too. We were mostly focused on that area, but then we were
10 also monitoring the radio range. We would find a very interesting
11 frequency to us, and I think that was the one that we exploited the most,
12 and that was the frequency of the Main Staff of the army of Republika
14 Q. So when you say you were a civilian organisation interested in
15 civilian work, what does that mean? What -- were you listening to
16 civilians from the enemy as well?
17 A. There were civilians on those routes too, and since this route
18 that I mentioned, the frequency of the Main Staff was there, there were,
19 by the nature of things, many pieces of information there that were useful
20 to my service. We also had the possibility of listening to hand-held
21 radio stations, portable or mobile telephones, and we picked up
22 information that was important to us.
23 Q. Can you briefly describe what the two men would do as they
24 first -- if they'd heard over the scanners an interesting conversation,
25 what would the two then do? Just start that process for us briefly and
1 take us through to the -- to the end.
2 A. There were two men sitting in a room at a large desk where the
3 equipment sets were placed and if a conversation would occur at the same
4 moment they would depress the pause button and begin recording the
5 conversations they would be directly listening to the conversation and
6 after this if the conversation was urgent, it would be transcribed from
7 the UHER, it would be transferred to a free UHER and a second operator
8 would continue to reproduce that conversation while the operator would
9 continue to listen for possible new conversations and record them.
10 Q. How would the conversation that had been recorded on the UHER be
11 reproduced, in what format or what way was it taken off the UHER?
12 A. There were two ways of doing it. Mostly if the conversation was
13 recorded well and could be audible, then it would be reproduced directly
14 into the computer. If not, we would then do that on a piece of paper. We
15 would conduct a reproduction, we would play it back, listen to it, we
16 would slow it down and so on and so forth, and after that it would be
17 typed in. That report would be typed into the computer, encrypted and
18 sent to our base or our centre.
19 Q. Who generally typed the transcript of the intercept into the
21 A. We were all trained to do that. When we are talking about these
22 two people in the shift, the person who was the quicker typist would
23 usually type it into the computer, at that point of time. But this wasn't
24 a rule, of course.
25 Q. All right. Now, when the conversation was taken down on pieces of
1 paper before being typed into the computer, what was done with those
2 pieces of paper?
3 A. After collecting a few of these on the desk then we would just go
4 behind the building and burn them. They were not important to us anymore
5 because then we would receive confirmation that our reports had already
6 been received by the centre.
7 Q. And who sent off the reports that were put into the computer? Who
8 sent them off to the centre?
9 A. Any of the operators. Usually the one who would reproduce it type
10 it in and encrypt it. That person would send it off and note down in the
11 log that that task was completed.
12 Q. Okay. I'll ask you about that log a little bit later. Can you
13 tell me now, did you work with the army unit that were at the site?
14 A. We were in the same building. We worked together.
15 Q. And can you describe what -- what -- just briefly what kind of
16 cooperation you had in terms of sharing information?
17 A. At one point when I and their chief met in the facility it was
18 assumed that we were doing the same job. Then in the beginning we started
19 to agree on certain things. Later when the information became more
20 important I then suggested that we could exchange information and send the
21 information together, both to one and the other centre with the assumption
22 that it would be useful. So in that period we exchanged or collated the
23 information, which would then be sent by them to their centre and I would
24 be sending this information to my centre.
25 Q. Okay. Did you yourself take part in the actual listening and
1 taping and transcribing and typing of -- of intercept conversations?
2 A. Yes. At one stage, this was in June and July, there was a need,
3 not just for me to be there, but for at least five more people to be
4 there, which we didn't have, so I really spent a lot of time there.
5 Q. All right. And in my office have I recently provided you with 11
6 intercepts of your -- of your printout?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you able to confirm that you had -- you had been the person
9 involved in obtaining those 11 intercepts?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And how were you able to determine by looking at the -- the
12 printout of the intercept that you were actually involved in the
14 A. I have to say that, in the beginning, I formulated everything up
15 there. I established it, and this is a thread that goes through all of
16 our reports, with some small differences. At the end of the report I
17 would put my signature.
18 Q. Well, was it your signature or your -- or something else?
19 A. Yes, there was a number which actually stood for my name.
20 Q. Okay. Well, let's get just one of those reports so you can
21 briefly explain how that worked. It is a 65 ter number 1074 -- sorry,
22 I -- it is 65 ter number 20 -- PO2379B, an intercept dated 11 July 1995 at
23 1800 hours. If we could bring up that on the -- B on the -- on the --
24 just the B/C/S printout on the -- okay.
25 Now, first of all, can you just start from the top and -- we
1 can -- we all know at this point what CSB and SDB -- SDB is state
2 security; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the -- can you tell us what CSB is just so I'm -- I've never
5 been clear on that?
6 A. Security Services Centre.
7 Q. And that includes both the state security and the public
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. All right. Well, we can see the date there, we can see that it's
11 marked "very urgent" in English. You actually used English?
12 A. No -- well, yes, in this case, yes. Because this is a term that
13 we actually used in the service.
14 Q. All right. And we see the word "broj" which ...
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What does -- just what does that mean?
17 A. That's the number of the report before that there are so many,
18 that many reports.
19 Q. Okay. Can you slowly read in -- in your language the -- the three
20 lines below the number, 539?
21 A. Yes. That's the formulation that we drafted that contains all the
22 elements that are important for this conversation. "On the aforementioned
23 day while monitoring radio relay in the Pale direction" - we named it
24 that - "on frequency 836 megahertz at 1800 hours, we recorded a
25 conversation between General Gvero and General Gobijara, whom we could not
1 hear. General Gvero's responses are as follows."
2 Q. I don't want to go through the intercept, but if we could scroll
3 down to the -- to the bottom of this intercept, I guess we have to go to
4 the next page.
5 Okay. On this page we see the intercept finishing up, then we see
6 a line. And then we see the numbers. Without telling us what these
7 numbers are, we see a first set of numbers and a slash and then a second
8 set of numbers. Can you tell us what the first set of numbers means?
9 A. Those are call signs. Codes of the employees.
10 Q. And does that -- that number, that first one we're looking at
11 belong to someone, or identify one of you guys?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. If he's going to mention names, then we
13 should go into private session.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Yeah, don't mention names, but if you could tell us who that
16 belongs to, without -- without mentioning names, I think we're okay on
17 this one.
18 A. The first one is mine.
19 Q. And is the second number one of your team members?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What's the significance, if any, of those two numbers in that
23 A. We had introduced a rule to make it so, to involve two men on each
24 document that was recorded, and later reproduced at that location. So
25 according to that rule, based on our mutual agreement, the first person
1 would record the conversation and the second one would type it up and
2 possibly dispatch it to the centre. However, since it was all on one
3 desk, both persons listened to the conversation and both of them took part
4 in typing it up. It was simply inevitable, so we were practically working
5 together. But the rule was that the first person who pressed the record
6 button would be responsible for that part of the job, while the other one
7 would do the typing.
8 Q. All right. Now, you've mentioned earlier that -- that these
9 intercepts were noted in a log. I went to direct your attention, we have
10 a -- a number PO2371, which is five pages of a photocopy of that log, but
11 you -- you brought your original of that log today, didn't you? If you
12 could open up that original to -- let's just open it up to the first
13 intercept that we -- that we have been talking about, which is -- if you
14 can find your number 539, and I think the ...
15 A. I got it.
16 Q. If you could put that -- the original on the ELMO, it may be a
17 little bit better to read, but I think we can also see number 539, it is
18 about the sixth -- sixth one down in this -- in this photocopy. If we
19 could zoom in a bit on -- on the -- with the ELMO to that top, about
20 fifth line. No, he -- or to where you -- to where you find the -- this --
21 this particular intercept. Okay. You've pointed to a -- to 539 on your
22 original log. Can you just go through these line or two or what -- and
23 tell us what this logbook is doing, or the significance of these
25 A. The first column contains the cardinal numbers, and they are not
1 anywhere on the documents. The second column contains two numbers of each
2 line. In this case, P -- 5094, and then after that we see 359. 5094 was
3 a number that I got from the text processor. At that time I was using the
4 Norton Commander, and I got it from the text processor. That number,
5 together with our number on the document, is introduced in the encrypting
6 programme, and after the encryption it got an eight digit number which was
7 11751938. And after that there is a column reflecting the time at which
8 that information was dispatched through communications.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it must be a
11 logistical problem, but I would like to draw your attention to the fact
12 that the photocopy we received absolutely does not correspond.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreter ...
14 THE INTERPRETER: Correspond to the original.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I can't answer that or I can't help you there.
16 Mr. McCloskey, I suppose, can.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, it -- I -- I can't explain that right now,
18 Mr. President, but I -- I think the book -- he's taken us to what is the
19 appropriate spot, and we'll try to help counsel with that at the break
20 and -- to see what the -- what the problem may be.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that satisfactory to you, Madam Fauveau? Is that
22 satisfactory to you?
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
25 Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: It -- we're look -- the page we are looking at
2 does actually correspond. I just refer you to down to the -- a little bit
3 beyond the middle of the page, not the fifth line, like I kind of
4 misdirected us to by accident.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: But do you know what copy Madam Fauveau has in her
6 hands? I suppose if you can tell us the ERN number, Madam Fauveau,
7 Mr. McCloskey would be able to see clearer.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could be 1385, the last four digits, and I think
9 we're all got the same one. I just directed you to the fifth line at the
10 top, and I was wrong; the witness has taken us down farther into the
11 middle of the page.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Nikolic, until Madam Fauveau
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, it does correspond.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
16 Yes, Madam Nikolic.
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to point out a
18 problem with the transcript. In line 15, I think the witness was talking
19 about P instead of number 5. That can later create confusion when we
20 analyse the transcript. That's from line 15 onwards. I think he was
21 talking about the letter P instead of number 5.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Line 15 of which page?
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Page 15, line 1.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: That changes everything.
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Sorry about this.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you help us, Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. And if we could go back to
3 the document, I -- the document that I read that he was referring to.
4 Q. Could you go back to 539 and just confirm for us that that first
5 number in the line is actually a -- is a letter P; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, yes. We see from the previous ones that it is a letter P.
7 It's smudged a little at this line, but we see it's P094.
8 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Now, can you tell us, once
9 these -- the conversations were on the -- the UHER tape, as far as you
10 know, were any of those conversations saved on -- any of the audio saved
11 on tape in some way?
12 A. A lot of conversations that we appraised as interesting at that
13 moment we tried to re-record on another tape from the UHER, and there
14 were, on the other hand, other conversations that were less interesting,
15 were not recorded on tape, because we didn't have enough tape.
16 Q. Now, this first conversation that we have been discussing, the 11
17 July one, had you recently had a chance to listen to an audiotape of that
18 conversation in my office?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did it correspond to that conversation?
21 A. Yes, as far as I remember we had a problem, and the problem was
22 the beginning and the end of conversation; it was not on that recording.
23 They were not on that recording.
24 Q. Do you have any explanation for how the beginning and the end
25 didn't get on the recording that you were listening to yesterday?
1 A. I have two explanations. One, that I made a mistake when I was
2 doing that, when I was doing the dubbing, because towards the end when the
3 gentleman who is speaking says, "So much" I thought he had finished, and
4 that's when I stopped the recording, because I didn't have the transcript,
5 so I wasn't able to follow. That's one option.
6 And another possibility is that when dubbing was done from one
7 UHER tape to another, the person who did the dubbing made the same
8 mistake. And at the end of the day I don't know whether these recordings
9 will reach you, but maybe we'll find out whether it was my mistake or
10 somebody else's.
11 Q. When you mentioned the possibility of your mistake, are you
12 talking about something that you did this year to provide the OTP with the
13 tape? You're not talking about the wartime period, I take it?
14 A. When I speak about my mistake, I'm talking about the present day.
15 My colleagues had given me a call to tell me you needed a recording and,
16 since I knew that job better, they invited me to do the dubbing and maybe
17 then I made it mistake of the but if I did, I think we'll know that before
18 the end of this day. However, there is another possibility, namely that
19 it happened when -- during dubbing from the big UHER tape to another tape,
20 so the colleague let the tape run from the first part when they are
21 exchange greetings and he continues recording until the moment when the
22 speaker says "so much, that's it," as if he were ending the conversation,
23 and there is indeed a pause after that. So that's another possibility.
24 Q. All right. And let me then just move on to a -- a document that I
25 showed you. I won't spend the time to get the document up, but it's a
1 document dated 21 September 1995, and it -- it talks about damage to a --
2 I believe damage to an antenna at the northern site. And an investigation
3 into how that happened. Can you just tell us briefly, as you did to me in
4 my office, what -- what you think that was about?
5 A. We had this problem about the quality of signal, and I realised
6 that if I managed to find a better antenna I could improve the quality of
7 the signal. Since it involved the frequency range also used by Telekom
8 in one section, I managed to get a parabolic antenna from them and prepare
9 it for installation. Since that area is very windy, subject to very
10 strong winds, we had to be very careful about installation. And in that
11 period the antenna, together with the fixtures used to fix it to that
12 pillar, was sitting in an underground corridor. And when the time came
13 to install it I noticed first that two of the components, two fixtures
14 were missing, and I also noticed two holes made in the antenna, made with
15 a sharp object. I was very angry, I found it very hard to understand how
16 that could have happened, and walking around the area I found this sharp
17 object, compared it to the holes made in the antenna, and I realised that
18 the holes were consistent and I said the sharp object would be preserved
19 as evidence and that the person found to be responsible would be
21 I knew of course that these holes would make no difference to the
22 quality of receiving the signal, and I only mentioned keeping it as
23 evidence in anger, but this was completely misinterpreted by -- by the
24 army as reference to enemy activity. I managed to find new fixtures
25 within a day and we managed to install the antenna.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I don't have any other questions for
2 this witness.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
4 Now, Mr. Zivanovic.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. Reading your first statement, in fact your testimony before this
10 Tribunal, in another case that I will not name now, I noticed that you
11 said, among other things, that your unit, or your section, together with
12 the other military unit, exchanged information on a daily basis. So I
13 want to ask you, did that also happen in the period we are interested in;
14 July 1995?
15 A. Particularly to that period, in fact.
16 Q. Thank you. You said you were in daily contact -- in fact, you
17 said you were in contact, and my question is, was it on a daily basis,
18 with the head of that other military unit, with their commander? Is that
20 A. I don't know what kind of contact you mean. We saw each other
21 every day, we were in the same building.
22 Q. I mean the exchange of information you mentioned a moment ago?
23 A. It was not our duty to be in contact to exchange information. The
24 exchange of information could have been handled by the operators because
25 we ourselves were not there all the time.
1 Q. You explained that in a way you aggregated this information you
2 had. Could you just clarify, does it involve comparing two versions
3 recorded by two units, comparing words or clarifying certain words that
4 one of you did not hear very well?
5 A. No. When the report would already be typed up, transcribed in
6 electronic form, we never corrected it. We never changed it. It went as
7 it were, and every operator had to be responsible for his own work. We
8 just united the reports, we just attached them together and sent them that
9 way. That's what I meant.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, about the notes that you made before you would
11 transcribe information on a PC. If you were unable to hear certain things
12 very well, did you try to clarify those things with the other unit at that
14 A. Yes, I have to admit that we asked each other's assistance in some
15 cases. If you want me to explain further, especially that was the case if
16 a particular recording concerned a part of the range that was listened to
17 mainly by them. And in that case we would ask them, did you get that
18 recording and what is this, and we would get answers.
19 Q. And you exchanged it, they did the same with you?
20 A. No, that couldn't go that way because they did not listen to our
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We were doing really fine, Mr. Zivanovic, finishes
23 his question, switches off his microphone so that no one can hear your
24 voice, and you were answering. However, just for the last two questions
25 you have been butting in straight away. So please allow a short pause
1 between question and answer, okay? Mr. Zivanovic has been doing it, so
2 it's you that we need now to comply. Thank you.
3 Mr. Zivanovic.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Another question that relates to the methods used by your
6 division. (redacted)
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Let's go into private session, please.
9 I don't see that we are in private session, as yet. I don't see
10 that we are in open session either.
11 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I organised the work.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So the operator, having heard that conversation, would either put
24 it down on a piece of paper or would transcribe it directly into the
25 computer, if the audibility was good?
1 A. To make things quite clear, first he would record the
2 conversation, and after that, if everything was perfectly audible, he
3 would let the tape run and transcribe it on the computer. If the workload
4 was too large, then he would do the transcribing later, not straight
6 Q. Did you have notebooks so that you would write in notebooks,
7 copied from those pieces of paper?
8 A. We didn't need to.
9 Q. Why did you organise work in that way? For expediency or for what
10 reason? Because it must have taken a lot of time to copy from paper to
11 the notebook.
12 A. Well, we did not have notebooks in the first place, and we had no
13 need to preserve written copies. We didn't need to preserve it in written
15 Q. Thank you, you have explained that. You explained also that there
16 were two persons per shift in your unit. Did you work around the clock?
17 A. We were there, in fact, two persons were there five to seven days
18 a week, and they were there as long as the -- there were activities going
19 on. You know that people do not talk all the time. There are intervals
20 in between conversations so that people would eat and drink in the
21 meantime and sometimes conversations would take place very late. One
22 operator could remain on duty until 3.00 a.m.
23 Q. I want to know something else. Was the work of operators
24 organised in shifts?
25 A. No. They were there together all the time. With the proviso that
1 after midnight, if traffic had stopped, one of them could go to sleep.
2 Q. I noticed among other things that you had a black notebook, it was
3 mentioned in one of your statements. Do you still have it?
4 A. It's a black agenda, and I just showed you a report from that
5 black agenda.
6 Q. Is it your private agenda or is it a service book?
7 A. It is still in the safe-keeping of the company where I work. It's
8 not private.
9 Q. So I suppose that the data recorded there are some sort of
10 official secret?
11 A. Of course.
12 Q. Do you know if approval had been given to disclose this agenda
13 before this Tribunal in these proceedings?
14 A. What the investigators had requested and what they had photocopies
15 was agreed and approved.
16 Q. Does that mean the rest wasn't?
17 A. I don't know. I don't know whether, after the time that has
18 elapsed, it is still secret. I would have to get briefed on that.
19 Q. I'm going to ask you now about this antenna. If I understood you
20 properly, until it was damaged, before that, the antenna wasn't used at
22 A. No, we didn't use it.
23 Q. You had antennas that you were using in your work. Can you please
24 tell me whether these antennas were also used by this other unit that was
25 at the same facility?
1 A. We had separate antennas.
2 Q. Just one more question. This antenna that you repaired and set
3 up. It stayed at the facility and you continued to use it until the end,
4 let's say?
5 A. Yes, it remained there and perhaps it's still there. I never
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
10 Mr. Meek.
11 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, we have no questions at this time.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Meek.
13 Madam Nikolic.
14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. We have
15 just a few questions.
16 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir.
18 A. Good day.
19 Q. You explained about the coding of the operators on each document
20 that would be dispatched from your unit; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did it ever happen that the participants -- or actually the
3 operators who worked on the intercepts wrote their names at the bottom of
4 the document, at the bottom of the page?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So there -- it wasn't -- the application of codes was not a rule
7 that was constantly applied?
8 A. Yes, it was a rule.
9 Q. And why did it happen then that some of the operators put their
10 actual names on the document, whether it was the typist or the person who
11 intercepted the conversation? Why was that?
12 A. I will try to explain. On the 25th of May, 1995, two of my
13 colleagues were wounded in Tuzla. It's a shell that is widely known
14 about, which is killed 71 people. On that occasion they were wounded. At
15 that point in time I was two men short, and since we were in the Security
16 Services centre together, there is the public security centre there, so we
17 asked the then minister requesting him to lend us two people with that
18 professional profile who would come to that location and continue the
19 work. It was desirable that those people have certain qualifications and
20 that is how we got two people from the Security Services centre who came
21 to our section. Since they were not a member of the service they did not
22 have their own codes, but signed themselves with their proper name.
23 That's the explanation.
24 Q. So that means that those people were part of some sort of reserve
25 force in a way?
1 A. You didn't understand me properly. They were active employees of
2 the public Security Service.
3 Q. I understand now. Thank you. Just one more question. Regarding
4 the monitoring of the frequencies during your earlier testimony and during
5 today's testimony you said you monitoring the frequency of the Main Staff.
6 Was that your primary frequency that you were monitoring during your
7 work during the -- at the northern location?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you listen in to other frequencies?
10 A. Yes, we did.
11 Q. When you were identifying the speakers, the participants, and when
12 you testified about this before you gave an explanation of how this could
13 be done, how they could be identified, meaning the names and then how this
14 later was transferred to the computer. In certain cases, if you did not
15 note down the names of the participants on a piece of paper or if this was
16 not entered directly into the computer, how were you able to identify the
18 A. Perhaps I didn't understand you properly. If we identified them
19 we would note that down. If we did not identify them, we would mark them
20 as X and Y, name unknown. And there are plenty of reports like that. If
21 we did not hear what the name was, we would put the question mark next to
22 the name, indicating that we were not sure that it was that name.
23 Q. Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P1101? This is at tab
24 2. A is in English and B is in B/C/S, and could we please show this to
25 the witness in B/C/S? Can we please zoom in a little bit on the document?
1 Thank you.
2 Sir, could you please look at the text of this intercept. I was
3 not able to conclude how you managed to identify the conversation between
4 a certain Krstic. How did you identify this name?
5 A. It's like this: We know it's Krstic but I don't know who Krstic
6 is. At that point in time I don't know who it is, so I used the term "a
7 certain Krstic" and Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic. How I identified it,
8 well, I would have to read it to just refresh my memory.
9 Q. Go ahead, please.
10 A. As we can see, Krstic is not mentioned anywhere, and I wrote that
11 down. That's the problem I see. When the connection was put through,
12 sometimes it would happen that the operator would say who is asking to
13 speak with whom. Sometimes it would also happen in view of the fact this
14 was not a frequency that we listened to a lot. At the point in when I got
15 there, I heard it and then I depressed the pause button, so this was not
16 recorded. Then I would note down that this was a certain Krstic speaking
17 with Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic. This is what I heard. Otherwise how
18 or why I would write it, I wasn't making it up. There is no reason for me
19 to make it up. There must have been some kind of indication.
20 Q. Then we don't have the lieutenant-colonel as the text goes on in
21 the same way?
22 A. Yes, that is correct, but probably while listening to previous
23 intercepts we knew that it was the lieutenant-colonel.
24 Q. Although you were not listening to that frequency very often?
25 A. Yes, we didn't listen to it very often, but there is the
1 possibility that the switchboard operator said such and such a rank person
2 or that he said the lieutenant-colonel would like to speak with such and
3 such a person.
4 Q. But since you didn't monitor that frequency a lot, this is some
5 sort of assumption?
6 A. No, it's not an assumption. It cannot be an assumption if I wrote
7 it down. I did not dare assume anything, and I had no reason to make
8 assumptions about anything, because -- I don't know how to explain it to
9 you. We didn't need assumptions of any kind in our work.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's have the break now. Because of
14 the redaction it needs to be 30 minutes. And Judge Kwon has arrived, and
15 he'll be joining us after the break. Thank you.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Defence team for Mr. Borovcanin.
19 Mr. Stojanovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] At the northern location that we mentioned
24 earlier, and according to what we know, there were two military units
25 there. Did you know that?
1 A. No. No.
2 Q. Your Honours, can we just move into private session, Your Honours,
3 Because I wanted to refer to one of the units.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means.
5 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I would like to now ask you about the exchange of intercepts
5 between you and this military unit. When I say you, I'm thinking of the
6 people from the service that you belonged to. Did it ever happen that one
7 intercept that was recorded both by the military unit and yourselves was
8 different, that there were differences in the text, in the names, in the
9 numbers, in the geographic names, and in other features?
10 A. I'm trying to remember. When I say this, you really need to keep
11 in mind that we did not analyse the intercepts. We were just an
12 operations department that would pass them on. I don't know if things
13 like that were found when these intercepts were being analysed in the
14 appropriate section. I don't know. But there is the possibility. When I
15 say there is the possibility, then in the technical aspect a radio relay
16 connection has the so-called frequency of one participant and the duplex
17 frequency of the other participant. And what can happen is that we listen
18 to the first and didn't hear the second one. There is the possibility
19 that they heard the second one and perhaps the first one as well. There
20 were such cases and, amongst other examples, you have the previous
21 intercept there where we did not hear the second participant. Somebody
22 maybe was able to hear the second participant. I know that at one point
23 we had that problem with this frequency that we were listening in to,
24 until we also found the duplex frequency. So then listening to the main
25 frequency, and we had a quality signal there, then combined with the
1 telephone connection we could hear the second speaker without using the
2 duplex frequency. I hope you are satisfied with the explanation.
3 Q. The reason why I'm asking you this is, if you noticed a certain
4 difference in the geographical names or the names of the collocutors, you
5 would take the same intercept that you already listened to, also from the
6 army. And then did you send both the intercepts in their original version
7 to your superior section?
8 A. They were always sent in their original version.
9 Q. So you up there at the position never compared the two intercepts
10 or did anything with them, but you would send both of them off; is that
12 A. Yes. They were always both sent off. I have to clarify one
13 thing, just for a second. If we reproduced a conversation that the army
14 was intensively listening to and it was important to us, but we were
15 unable to recognise the speakers because they did not introduce
16 themselves, at sometime we would ask them to come and listen to that
17 intercept and since you're listening to that constantly, "Can you say who
18 that is," and then they would say, "That is such and such a person, 100
19 per cent." So in such cases when the information was important, we would
20 do that. When it was very important for us to know the names, if you
22 Q. I am trying to. But let's try to give an example of this. You
23 heard a conversation, you felt that it was very important, you were unable
24 to recognise the speakers. You would call somebody from the army, they
25 would come and say, "We are constantly monitoring this person, we are
1 familiar with his characteristics, the vocabulary he uses; it's
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. My question is, in the typewritten text that you would send to
5 your superior service, would you write in how you identified a
6 participant, for example a participant like Zivanovic?
7 A. I know one thing 100 per cent. Any -- every report that came from
8 the military we would write that it was received from the 2nd Corps
9 Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit. I know this for a fact. When we would
10 call, for example, the operator who would be listening in to Zivanovic and
11 he said, "This is Zivanovic," in that case we wouldn't write that in. It
12 didn't mean that much to us. We were doing that for our own purposes, we
13 didn't know at that time that we would be coming here and explaining our
14 methods of work. Otherwise we would have written it in.
15 Q. So in such situations, you would say the speaker is Zivanovic.
16 You didn't know that information, but you received it from somebody from
17 the army, and then he would send that off in that way to your superior
19 A. Yes, you could say it was like that, but again I say this is
20 something that was done very infrequently. In essence the participants
21 were not that important to us. What was important to us was the actual
22 content of the conversation, the intercept.
23 Q. I have to ask you this here, even though I didn't mean to ask
24 that. Why do you believe that the participants were not important?
25 A. Well, let me try to explain. If in the report there was talk
1 about how something was going to happen in a certain sector, at that
2 moment that was the main thing. Who said that at that particular time,
3 basically, was not important to us. Perhaps it was more important to the
4 military, but in the operations sense it wasn't important for us. What
5 was important was to know what was being prepared and what would happen in
6 a certain area.
7 Q. But can we agree that if in the conversation it was said such and
8 such a person is coming with his unit, it's important to know the name of
9 the person because that way you could identify the unit, the strength of
10 the unit, the capacity of the unit. So for somebody who was listening to
11 that, the name would be an important thing, wouldn't it?
12 A. As I said, it was probably more important to know that if you were
13 in the military rather than in the intelligence service. The army was
14 using and moving and positioning units in these places. As far as we were
15 concerned we were not doing that; so for us, the actual data, the
16 intelligence was important.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Counsel, and Witness, please slow down a little bit.
18 I figured out that the interpreters are finding it a little bit difficult
19 to catch up with you.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We will
21 try to slow down as much as we can.
22 Q. Today in response to a question by the Prosecutor, as well as in
23 the proofing notes that we received from the Prosecution, you mentioned
24 the event from the 21st of September, 1995 [Realtime transcript read in
25 error "2005"], when this equipment was damaged. Do you remember that?
1 A. I remember the damage, but I don't recall the date.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the
3 transcript, I would like to say again that I said the 21st of September,
4 1995, and on page 34, line 23, the date is the 21st of September, 2005.
5 So I would just like to make a correction here.
6 Q. So just leaving aside the date, my question is, who could have
7 caused the damage on that equipment at that location at that time?
8 A. I really don't know. I really don't know who it was. I was angry
9 at the time and I wanted to express my state of mind, my mood. I don't
10 know. I don't know. To this very day I don't know, I didn't even know
11 that there was a report made on this, and that it was qualified as a
12 hostile or enemy activity. I think that's what it says. This is
13 something that is specific to the military. Soldiers know that in wartime
14 many things can be qualified differently than we as civilians would
15 qualify them.
16 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that the damage could have been
17 caused either by somebody by the army or your own service?
18 A. There was nobody else.
19 Q. Looking at your proofing notes I come to the conclusion that one
20 of your explanations was that it could have been done by the army,
21 motivated by envy or malice; is that correct?
22 A. You know, up there on that location it was a struggle for the
23 best possible signal. Engineers competed in installing aerials, and I
24 was lucky to have a knowledgeable friend. And when I finally managed to
25 get hold of that parabolic antenna, maybe somebody was a petty spirit,
1 envious enough to do something like that. Or maybe somebody had a beer
2 too many and did that. But I really didn't realise it was such a terrible
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Next topic, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Right, Your Honour. We have
6 finished with this.
7 Q. The next thing I want to ask you concerns the tapes you used. Did
8 it occur that tapes and intercepts recorded in longhand before they were
9 taken, before they were sent to your service, would be collected by you
10 and then transcribed together in your own centre?
11 A. No. Everything was done on that location, and from that location
12 we sent it all to the centre through communications.
13 In fact, I have to add, in order to be completely clear, there
14 were cases when a conversation was in English, and I seem to remember that
15 in one or two cases we invited an interpreter to our location and yet in
16 another couple of cases we had to take the intercept concerned to our
17 service for it to be translated there. That's all I can remember.
18 Q. I'm asking you this for the following reason: Another witness is
19 scheduled to appear, a witness from your service speaking on that topic,
20 and since I don't have any further opportunity to speak to you, I want to
21 read out this passage from his testimony. "In rare occasions when he was
22 present," meaning you, "and a very important conversation was being
23 intercepted, he would take the handwritten copy and the tape to the base
24 to transcribe them there."
25 So when would that happen?
1 A. I don't know how many cases like that we had, but they always
2 concerned something that had to be taken to Sarajevo immediately. There
3 were a few intercepts, and I really can't remember, it was very long ago,
4 but we had to take the audiorecording as well. If something like that
5 could have been sent just in written form, then it would have been.
6 However, the tape and the written transcription would be taken to Sarajevo
8 Q. And you mean that this witness refers to these cases?
9 A. Yes, and they were very, very rare.
10 Q. In November 2003 you testified before this Tribunal in another
11 case. And you were asked about the tapes you used. Do you remember
13 A. I don't remember the question exactly, but of course I testified
14 about tapes as well. If you can remind me, I will answer.
15 Q. I will ask you very briefly. What happened to those tapes? Do
16 you know?
17 A. I think I've spoken about this already. First we had a problem
18 with the tapes, we did not have enough of them. For that reason it was
19 our call which intercepts would be dubbed on to one large tape, marking
20 the precise times of the beginning and the end of each intercept. We did
21 that with extremely important intercepts. I know we did that. When you
22 ask me about the fate of the tapes, I hope you understand my role in all
23 of that. Such intercepts were taken to the headquarters where there were
24 people who were doing that part of the job, and in addition to using the
25 information from the tapes they were also in charge of safe keeping the
1 tapes. So they were no longer in our possession.
2 Q. From that moment on you have no information about those tapes, you
3 don't know if they are still in existence?
4 A. Just by chance I happen to know about a part of them. Recently
5 when the OTP asked that part of some intercepts be re-recorded, they
6 invited me, as a member of the service, who knew his way around those
7 tapes, to do that job, and I know that those intercepts that were
8 requested are still in existence.
9 Q. Let me get this clear. Those were recordings that you made, not
10 the army?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Was there a single intercept among those shown to you and asked
13 about by the Prosecutor that was re-recorded?
14 A. Yes, I know about one of them because I heard it.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may ask the Court to go into
16 private session for the last couple of questions.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session, please.
18 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
22 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
23 Q. [Interpretation] We do not hear.
24 What I would like to know is when you reproduced the conversations
25 of the 2nd Corps, did you have a possibility to listen to the tapes they
1 had, or did you only receive the report? Did you only receive the
3 A. It was not I who transcribed the intercepts originating from the
4 2nd Corps. I received that in electronic form.
5 Q. You had no -- you had no opportunity to hear the tape on which
6 this was registered?
7 A. I did not need to listen to it. It would have been too much for
8 us. We were having difficulty coping with our part of the job.
9 Q. Since you didn't have an opportunity to check these tapes, you
10 can't say that the report you received corresponded exactly to the
11 conversation which had been taped; isn't it so?
12 A. I didn't give it any thought. I thought those men were doing
13 their job well, and we just accepted it that way.
14 Q. And when you transmitted one of your reports to the army you did
15 not transmit also the tape, did you?
16 A. Correct. I did not send the tape.
17 Q. Can it be said, therefore, that tape made by the army of which you
18 received the report, was indeed sent to your superiors, and also to the
19 superiors of the 2nd Corps which were on the same site as you were?
20 A. I can assert that that tape was not sent to my service. Where it
21 was sent, I don't know.
22 Q. I think there's been a mistake. I will repeat my question. The
23 report of a conversation, an intercept intercepted by the army for which
24 you received the report, you sent it to your superiors, your -- your
25 supervisors, your superiors, didn't you?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And the army sent these reports to their own superiors, didn't
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. So the conversation was intercepted only once, but two reports
6 left and concerned the same intercept. True?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. You spoke a while ago -- or perhaps a question was asked of you
9 about the 21st Division, and you said that you didn't have any knowledge
10 of this unit.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D168,
13 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, this document is not in e-court.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think the document is arriving,
15 but I could give you a paper.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is the number correct? 5D168, Madam Fauveau.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Sir, can you see on this document whether it is indeed a document
21 which left from your place, which was sent from your place?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you see on this document that it came from the 21st
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 Q. Does this help you? Does this help you to remember that there was
2 a 21st Division on the same site as you?
3 A. Well, that means nothing to me. I really didn't deal in those
4 matters. These things didn't matter to me. I called them PEB of the 2nd
5 Corps, and for the 21st Division, I really didn't notice that or didn't
6 pay attention maybe, I don't know. It's obviously a document that we had
7 forwarded, having received it from the PEB, the entire Anti-Electronic
8 Warfare Unit of the 21st Division, and sent it on to our centre.
9 Q. Is it true -- is it true that you used the computer of the army to
10 send your report?
11 A. There was a period when we did not have the technical facilities
12 to forward information from our location to the centre. At that time we
13 requested from our colleagues in the PEB of the 2nd Corps to let us -- or
14 rather to do the forwarding through their own communications. Since these
15 two centres were physically very close, every time that such information
16 would arrive, the operator would put it on a diskette, inform an employee
17 of my service at the headquarters, and that person would come and fetch
19 Q. When your report left from the army computer, was it a person from
20 your service who was working on the army computer or was it an army
21 personnel who was taking your data and used this computer?
22 A. We had a computer on our location, but at one stage we did not
23 have the technical facilities to send information, due to the fact that
24 the modem was broken or something. So we would physically give them the
25 information on a diskette and their signalsman would send it on. And I
1 don't rule out the possibility that you raised; maybe that happened.
2 Maybe. I cannot remember every moment and every day. I cannot claim now
3 that the computer was always working. Maybe my operator would really go
4 once in a while to the PEB centre of the 2nd Corps and dictate what he had
5 to say. I cannot rule out the possibility, but even if it happened, it
6 happened in the way I'm describing.
7 Q. About the tapes, you said that you didn't have enough tapes. Is
8 it true that you reused the same tapes and that you would record on an
9 already recorded tape, over the previous conversations?
10 A. I have said that already, that's correct.
11 Q. Did it sometimes happen when you reused the same tape, the
12 previous conversation wasn't completely erased and indeed on the new
13 registration you could hear parts of the previous conversation or
15 A. Well, if you have any knowledge about the way recordings are
16 made, you will understand that regardless of whether something is deleted
17 or not, erased or not, every new recording erases what was there
19 Q. Could the witness be shown document 5D172.
20 THE FRENCH INTERPRETER: We didn't hear properly.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] 5D172, and it is indeed in the
22 e-court system.
23 Q. This is indeed an intercept which you took from the 2nd Corps;
24 isn't it so?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Is it true if you looked at the second intercept, which was taped
2 at 2107 [ass interpreted], there is a sentence which says that IHR did not
3 properly erase the previous conversation; in consequence, EY is
4 practically inaudible?
5 A. That never happened to me. You would have to ask the operator who
6 recorded this.
7 Q. Therefore, this sentence, it's from the 2nd Corps that -- you had
8 it. You didn't add this sentence, did you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Is it true that even when you sent or transported the tapes
11 yourself to your headquarters, it was not originals, but when you had very
12 important tapes you would put them on -- several tapes, you would
13 re-record them on a bigger tape, on a new tape?
14 A. Both occurred. I explained a moment ago that if something was
15 very important, I explained the procedure, how I took it directly to the
16 centre. And other conversations were recorded on a compilation tape.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. On line 21 on the previous page, page
18 43, 2107 should read 2137.
19 Yes, Madam Fauveau, you may proceed.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.
21 Q. Witness, a moment ago you spoke about intercepts in English. An
22 English intercept, was it first typed in its original version in English
23 or was it first translated in your language and then transcribed on the
24 computer at your site?
25 A. I know that it was immediately translated into our language.
1 Whether, when it was taken to the company, it was typed up in English, I
2 don't know.
3 Q. Therefore, if there were a mistake in a translation, a
4 mistranslation, this mistake would appear in the report of the
5 transcription which was made?
6 A. An error in translation would be due to the translator. I really
7 couldn't explain that.
8 Q. You spoke a while ago of this notebook where you entered
9 information concerning the report which was transmitted. Who was in
10 charge of putting the information in this notebook?
11 A. Nobody in particular was in charge of that. Those who were
12 dealing with a particular piece of information had the duty to enter in
13 this logbook the elements that were envisaged.
14 Q. So, if I understand correctly, the people who were able to send
15 the information were the ones who were actually entering the information
16 in that notebook; is that right?
17 A. Yes, as a record of dispatched information.
18 Q. And after the war, that notebook, was it archived somewhere?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell us, before coming here to court, where did you take
21 this notebook from?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you --
23 A. From the archive.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have clearance from your government to give
25 this information? Because if you don't, I will not let you disclose it.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I already provided parts of
2 the logbook from previous cases, for them to be copied, I brought it in
3 case I needed to refresh my memory in case I was asked something so that I
4 don't do that on the basis of my recollection, but that I have that to
5 refer back to. It's a standard log, and other than the number of the
6 information, nothing else should be confidential. So I can show the
7 report and that it was logged in and that it was dispatched from the
8 location to the destination where our centre was.
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we please go to a
10 closed session for just one question?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go into private session, please.
12 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, you told us that you monitored the headquarters through
7 one of your machines. Can you tell us, when did you start monitoring that
8 frequency, the headquarters of the Republika Srpska?
9 A. I cannot remember the specific date, but I think that we managed
10 to find that frequency in June.
11 Q. Witness, can you tell us if you looked for that frequency or you
12 just found it completely by chance?
13 A. We found it accidentally, but we wanted to find it.
14 Q. And before finding that frequency, did you really try hard to find
15 it? Were you looking for it?
16 A. Every day.
17 Q. Can you tell us, how much time did you need to find it?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Move to the next question, Madam Fauveau, please.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Exhibit
20 1181B, please.
21 Q. If we take the first transcript on this page, we can see that it
22 is on the frequency 830 [as interpreted], channel 4. Is it right to say
23 that that answer, 836 -- that frequency rather, 836 [as interpreted], was
24 the frequency of the headquarters?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have just a clarification. She said
3 headquarters of Republika Srpska. I think we're talking about the
4 headquarters of the army of the -- army of Republika Srpska. It may have
5 been a translation issue. But I think it's clear now what she's talking
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And one other thing. Are you referring to message
8 630 or 631, Madam Fauveau?
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] For now, Mr. President, it's 630,
10 and Mr. McCloskey is absolutely right. I am referring to the headquarters
11 of the army of the Republika Srpska.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's clear enough for everyone now. And
13 you may proceed. Thank you.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the
15 second intercept, conversation 631, please.
16 Q. Witness, this is still the same frequency, but it's channel 13.
17 Can you tell us how is it possible that the same frequency can be found on
18 two different channels?
19 A. Yes, I can. This frequency has 24 channels.
20 Q. So according to you this same frequency could have been found on
21 24 channels?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
24 Mr. President, for this witness.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.
1 Mr. Josse.
2 MR. JOSSE: Nothing, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.
4 MR. HAYNES: Nor I, Your Honour. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Is there re-examination, Mr. McCloskey?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.
8 So, Witness, that means your testimony comes to an end here. On
9 behalf of the Trial Chamber and the Tribunal, I wish to thank you for
10 having come over to give testimony. Our staff will assist you to enable
11 your return home at the earliest. On behalf of everyone, I wish you a
12 safe journey back home.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the person, the first one
16 from the left, or from the right to the left, I think had something to say
17 to me.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if you are referring to Mr. Josse.
19 MR. JOSSE: Could Your Honour invite the witness --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, in the back bench, next to
21 the window.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
23 MR. JOSSE: Could Your Honour invite this witness not to discuss
24 his evidence with anyone else, please.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: There are other witnesses -- thank you, Mr. Josse.
1 There are other witnesses waiting to give evidence. I don't know
2 if you have had the opportunity to come across them or not. If you do,
3 you are strictly prohibited from discussing with any of them the substance
4 of your evidence or what they might testify upon. Is that clear? All
5 right. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely clear.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: General Miletic, by any chance, since the witness
10 has left the room and referred to you, did you wish to ask any question or
11 put any question to him?
12 THE ACCUSED MILETIC: [Interpretation] No, I just made a gesture
13 with my head because I disagreed with one of his answers, but I didn't
14 have the intention of actually speaking with the witness, no.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 So next witness. Before we -- the tendering of documents.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. We have the pseudonym
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is 2370.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And it's PO2370, and then we -- the list is
21 accurate for all the intercepts. I don't know if we need to go through
22 all these numbers. We generally don't. But we would like those, as well
23 as the five pages of the notebook, which is PO2371.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. For the record, because I'm not that 100 per
25 cent sure that the pseudonym was recorded; this last witness was PW-128.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection on the part of the Defence teams to
3 the admission of these documents with the usual caveats being intercepts?
4 I hear none. With regard to 2371, which are five pages from book
5 belonging to the witness entitled, "Record of sent notes," which was an
6 exhibit in P348 in case -- in another case. Is there any objection? I
7 hear none.
8 So these are -- the pseudonym sheet is admitted, of course, and
9 kept under seal. The rest are marked for identification. 2371, I think
10 we can admit straight away. 2371 is admitted straight away.
11 All right. Next witness. The Defence, I think it's Ms. Fauveau
12 that made use of some documents, one of which was not yet in the -- in the
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It is in the e-court, Mr. President.
15 It's document 5D168, and 5D172.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] And I will inform you as soon as the
18 translation is available.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So they are both admitted, marked for identification
20 pending the translation, after which they will be upgraded and fully
22 Yes. You have your next witness ready?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we do, Mr. President. And if I could invite
24 the Defence, if you have a -- a new estimate for time for witnesses, we
25 would appreciate it.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we do have for the next one. For the -- one
2 moment, because I have the information here. This will be 144, PW-144,
3 yes. And it is -- no, one moment. I have the old -- old estimate, which
4 doesn't count anymore. So originally they had suggested four hours --
5 three hours, 20 minutes, which is a mistake because it's 45 -- one hour
6 the Popovic team, Nikolic -- anyway, that has to be adjusted and you will
7 have only the 30 minutes that are applicable.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, it's my understanding that the
9 three hours and 20 minutes is -- is the most recent as of yesterday. In
10 fact --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Our estimate for this last witness was three hours
13 and 10 minutes and it took one hour and 20 minutes. That's why I say, if
14 we could get updated because, we are basing our bringing in witnesses in
15 part on these estimates.
16 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, speaking on behalf of our team, there's
17 been a significant change insofar as the next witness is concerned. We've
18 been notified by the Prosecution that a significant number of intercepts
19 which were relevant to our case, which had originally been said to have
20 been dealt with by him, in fact are being dealt with by another witness.
21 Our estimate therefore is a huge overestimate in the circumstances. And
22 could my learned friends take that into account. But the change we had
23 notified over the weekend from the Prosecution is highly significant, and
24 that is the reason.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So you had indicated 45 minutes for this one.
1 MR. JOSSE: We will be a maximum of 10 minutes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The important thing is we keep within two hours, 40
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. Can I ask you again, even taking into
6 consideration what Mr. Josse has stated and Mr. McCloskey to confirm or
7 review your estimate for this next witness. The Popovic team has
8 indicated 40 minutes. Do you stick to those?
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that our
10 cross-examination will be very brief, if we decide to have one at all.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's -- then let's do it this way because I -- I
13 rather prefer playing it safe. Keep the other witness here as well,
14 please, because we might well end up with starting with him today. All
15 right? If we adhere to this schedule, even if we reduce it to the time
16 limits, then we won't finish with this witness, but likely having heard
17 two of the parties that -- that will be reviewed substantially. All
18 right? Okay.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to discuss something very briefly before we
22 start with the witness. We are having a five-minute break. We will be
23 outside and we will resume immediately after. And just to clear this up,
24 Mr. Nicholls, this is a 92 ter witness, isn't he?
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct, Your Honours. I will be very brief. If
1 you have any questions about the packet, as my colleague said, it is now
3 --- Break taken at 12.05 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.09 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. Very soon you will
8 start giving evidence. Before you do so, our rules require that you make
9 a solemn declaration, that you enter a solemn declaration to the effect
10 that you will be testifying the truth. Madam Usher is going to hand you
11 the text. Please read it out aloud, and that will be your undertaking
12 with us.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please take a seat, make yourself
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you start giving evidence, let me explain
19 something very briefly to you. Prosecution has asked, and we have
20 granted, three protective measures for you. One is the use of a pseudonym
21 instead of your name, the other one is voice distortion, and the last one
22 is facial distortion. I take it these have been explained to you already.
23 All I want to know is whether this is to your satisfaction.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Nicholls will be putting some
1 questions to you, and also making reference to a statement that you have
2 made to the office of the Prosecution, and then he will be followed by
3 cross-examination from some of the various teams, Defence teams.
4 Mr. Nicholls, go ahead.
5 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-144
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
8 counsel. First, if I could hand the witness P02373, the pseudonym
10 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
11 Q. Sir, I would ask you to look at that carefully, see if it states
12 your name on it, read it to yourself without reading it out loud, and
13 please confirm if your name is contained on that information sheet?
14 A. Yes, that's my name.
15 Q. Now, sir, did we meet over the weekend, and you provided a written
16 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on Saturday, the 20th of
17 January, 2007?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was the written statement, which was taken in English, read back
20 to you in your own language afterwards?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you sign the statement?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you attest, before the Trial Chamber, that the statement
25 accurately reflects what you stated during the interview, which resulted
1 in the written statement?
2 A. Yes, of course.
3 Q. And can you also attest that if asked today the same questions,
4 which form the basis of that statement, you would provide the same
5 answers, the same information here today before the Trial Chamber?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. I'll now read a brief summary of the statement, and I
8 if could please start in private session.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. Let's go into private session.
10 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 MR. NICHOLLS: After arriving at this location, the witness was
10 instructed on the procedures used in the unit in intercepting VRS radio
11 transmissions. In the statement the witness describes the procedures used
12 in intercepting, recording, and transcribing these radio communications.
13 At the northern location the intercept operators worked very closely
14 together as a team. The signalsmen who -- typed, encrypted and sent the
15 intercepts to the higher command, along with the intercept operator. In
16 particular, the witness and his colleague helped each other in all aspects
17 of this job and both men performed all of the duties required in
18 intercepting and sending on these radio communications.
19 Most of the time the witness worked as the intercept operator, and
20 his colleague typed because the colleague was faster at typing and the
21 witness had more experience with radio operation.
22 In the statement the witness described how he reviewed a binder of
23 intercepts in the office of the OTP on the 20th of January, 2007, and
24 identified and confirmed that 11 of them were intercepts which he had
25 recorded and transcribed.
1 May I go into private session again for one second.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go into private session, please.
3 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: The 11 intercepts are the same in the packet
14 submitted to Your Honours. The ERN numbers in the packet match the ones
15 in the statement. Finally, the witness cannot recall the exact dates, but
16 he believes he went on leave around July 11th for a period of about a
17 week, he's not sure of the exact time.
18 That concludes the witness summary.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Do you have questions for the
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I don't. I think we've covered it all
22 in the statement, and I just want to thank the witness for coming and ask
23 him to do his best to answer the questions briefly, which my colleagues
24 will put to him.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Zivanovic.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions of this
2 witness, thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek.
4 MR. MEEK: Just a few questions, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:
6 Q. Witness, could you tell me please when you first spoke with --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel is kindly requested to speak into
8 the microphone.
9 MR. MEEK:
10 Q. -- someone from the Office of the Prosecutor about your testifying
11 in this case?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: It is a question of your height, actually. The
13 interpreters are drawing my attention that you should speak closer to your
14 microphone, because they are having difficulties following you.
15 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Judge. I'm sorry.
16 Q. Witness, could you please just tell me when you were first
17 contacted to be a witness in this case by the Office of the Prosecutor?
18 A. I believe that was -- I can't tell you the date, but it was a
19 month or so ago. But it was recently in any case.
20 Q. And very recently you had a proofing session with the Prosecutor
21 who just asked you some questions, and at that time you told him that
22 only -- I think 11 of the 25 purported intercepts were actually
23 intercepted by you; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, the 11 that I saw.
25 Q. When you spoke with -- in your proofing session here in The Hague,
1 was that the first time you had spoken with an attorney, a Prosecutor from
2 the Office of the Prosecutor here?
3 A. Yes. If you mean that conversation from before. If you don't
4 count that, then this is the first time, I believe this is the first time,
6 Q. Was the first conversation with Mr. Nicholls, who questioned you
7 this morning, or was it from some other attorney or investigator?
8 A. No, I did not speak to Mr. Nicholls.
9 Q. Were you shown at any time more than 25 purported intercepts that
10 the Office of the Prosecutor believed you actually listened to and
12 A. No. No, I've seen these intercepts.
13 Q. Sir, were you ever offered any explanation as to why the Office of
14 the Prosecutor thought that you had been the person intercepting 25
15 conversations when, in fact, there were only 10 or 11?
16 A. Can you repeat the question?
17 Q. Well, when you came to be proofed you were shown approximately 25
18 intercepts, and you, as I understand it, explained to the Office of the
19 Prosecutor that you only intercepted 10 of those, not the whole 25.
20 Correct so far?
21 A. I looked only at my 11 intercepts. If I can clarify, I did not
22 review other intercepts. In the file that I had before me, I looked only
23 at intercepts that were mine.
24 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Meek.
1 Madam Nikolic.
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
3 questions of this witness.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Nikolic.
5 Mr. Stojanovic.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Once again, good afternoon, Your
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] I will ask you just a few questions, Witness.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. I'd like to ask you about the training you had before you came to
12 what we call the northern location. So after doing the job you did, as
13 you described, in June 1995 you moved to another job and go to the
14 northern location. What were your duties there?
15 A. Since I didn't know what I was going to be doing, I received the
16 training in which I was shown the equipment and I was shown what to do
17 with it, and in view of my prior experience as a ham radio operator I
18 grasped that quite quickly without any difficulty.
19 Q. Who is the person who gave you those instructions for your work?
20 You don't have to name him, just tell the position that person was?
24 (redacted) private
1 Q. There is no need to discuss it. It was just a background question
2 to what I want to ask you now. How many of you worked there?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
4 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we go into private session for one second?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session, please.
7 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Kindly tell us, when you were at that location, how many of you
20 worked in one shift?
21 A. There were two shifts with two persons each, and the chief was
22 very frequently in our shift, especially at the beginning to help us fit
23 in at our new job better.
24 Q. The two persons who came to that location in June, were they in
25 the same shift?
1 A. You mean the other shift, did it consist of the two persons who
2 continued to work?
3 Q. Yes, precisely.
4 A. I believe so. I can't be sure, but I think so.
5 Q. So there were two employees who worked continuously in one shift,
6 and the two men who came later worked together in another shift?
7 A. Yes.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
10 Sorry, Mr. Stojanovic, but the lines in the transcript do not
11 tally with the lines on the other monitor. So there is one line
12 difference, so I wanted to make sure that we redacted the right thing.
13 Go ahead.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, looking at the clock
15 I lost track a bit. Shall we take the break now, or can I continue?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's have -- let's have a -- can we reduce it
17 to 25 minutes? Okay. Let's reduce it to 25 minutes and let me sign the
18 redaction now.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness, we left off -- we left off at the question concerning the
24 number of people per shift and the number of shifts?
25 A. Yes, I remember.
1 Q. Would you agree that that number of people was insufficient for
2 that workload, and that your supervisor requested assistance and support
3 in the form of additional personnel?
4 A. I don't know whether he requested it. I'm not sure. We did what
5 we did to the extent that we did.
6 Q. From that location you left on the 11th of July?
7 A. I think it was the 11th of July when we left, if my memory serves
8 me well.
9 Q. Did you ever go back after that leave?
10 A. Certainly. If it was the 11th, then it would have been seven days
12 Q. Did you remain at that location until the end of the year?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. During your stint there in the year we are discussing, did you
15 notice any problems; lack of coordination, lack of cooperation with the
17 A. I personally did not. I don't know.
18 Q. And in conclusion, let me ask you, did you give any statements
19 concerning this subject before the statement you gave to OTP
21 A. No.
22 Q. Your first statement regarding your activities at the northern
23 location, was given to OTP investigators; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have
1 no further questions for this witness.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 Madam Fauveau.
4 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you said that you watched only those
6 intercepts which were your own. Is it true that you identified your
7 conversations because your name was at the bottom of these intercepts?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And after your name there was a slash and the name of another
10 person; is that so?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the name of this other person was the name of the person who
13 transcribed the intercept into the computer; true?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is it true that sometimes there was a mistake, an error, and
16 sometimes your name should have been placed first but came in second
17 position, or conversely the name of the person who was number two should
18 have been in the first position?
19 A. Yes. That could have occurred because it had no particular
20 meaning for us at that moment, although if it occurred it would have been
22 Q. Is it true therefore that about the intercepts which you reviewed,
23 you couldn't be absolutely certain that you had taped those
25 A. If you give me some more time to answer this, we worked next to
1 each other, sitting at the same desk, listening to the same thing, doing
2 the same job.
3 Q. In any case, about -- as far as you are concerned, and this other
4 person, can't you let us know clearly, and being completely sure or
5 certain which of the two of you had taped and which of the two of you had
6 typed the intercept?
7 A. Let me tell you, we frequently worked on intercepts together,
8 depending on the situation. Occasionally audibility was not good in
9 certain sections and we tried to hear what it was better together. So we
10 worked together one of us doing the transcribing, the other one doing the
11 recording and vice versa and we listened to it together.
12 Q. Agreed. But nevertheless, today you can't tell us who was
13 pressing the button to record the intercept; isn't it so?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: I think he's answered the question to the best of
16 his ability. It's been asked several times.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so too.
18 Madam Fauveau.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no other question,
20 Mr. President.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Is there cross-examination, Mr. Josse?
22 MR. JOSSE: There isn't, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes.
24 MR. HAYNES: Nor from us, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Re-examination.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which means that your testimony ends here, sir. On
3 behalf of the Tribunal, I wish to thank you for having coming over to give
4 evidence. Our staff will escort you out of the courtroom and assist you
5 to facilitate your return back home at the earliest. On behalf of
6 everyone here, I wish you a safe journey back home.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents, Mr. Nicholls.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: I think you've been provided with a list,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Because of the practice which we've heard about,
14 virtually all of them need to be under seal.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: There are two, 1093A and 1282A, which are
17 translations which do not need to be under seal, but that's it.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So this was witness PW-144. His OTP witness
19 statement dated 20 January will be PO2372 under seal, pseudonym will be
20 PO2373 under seal, both admitted. The rest are intercepts, all of which
21 will be marked for identification, as per the practice that has been
22 adopted so far as regards intercepts. And they will all be kept under
24 I am assuming that there are no objections. And in fact there are
25 none. Thank you. There are no documents that have been used by any of
1 the Defence teams.
2 So we can safely call the next witness.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if I could just give you an update
4 on scheduling, we thought we might be going through this quickly, so we
5 had scheduled eight intercept operators for this week, which is not going
6 to be enough. So we had scheduled some fact witnesses for a -- one of the
7 crime scenes. We were informed recently that one of the -- well, the
8 accused that's not here, that's -- those are very important witnesses for,
9 and so that has thrown a very large monkey wrench in into our planning but
10 we are working with it and trying to get other witnesses that don't have
11 that problem, and we will get an update with Ms. Nikolic and we'll keep
12 you updated. But hopefully we'll be okay. But that's where we are right
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. McCloskey on that procedure. That
15 is the -- an indication, a rough indication when Mr. Nikolic will be in
16 the courtroom, if you know, Madam Nikolic.
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] For the moment, Your Honour, no.
18 But if any medical examination is undertaken, that will be during this
19 week. So the absence and diagnosis of Mr. Nikolic have not been
20 confirmed, and there is no appraisal of the time he will need to recover.
21 However, I am in daily contact with the detention unit, and I do my best
22 to inform my colleagues from the Prosecution, as I did this weekend of any
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Indeed, the Trial Chamber would appreciate having a
25 confirmation from you as we go along, Madam Nikolic, that your client is
1 receiving all the medical attention and adequate medical attention that he
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Including the
4 e-mail that I sent this weekend to my colleagues from the Prosecution, it
5 was also copied to the Trial Chamber.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
7 Good afternoon to you, sir.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are a Prosecution
10 witness about to start giving evidence. Before you do so, our Rules
11 require that you enter a solemn declaration that you will be testifying
12 the truth. The text of the solemn declaration is being handed to you now.
13 Please read it out aloud, and that will be your undertaking with this
14 Trial Chamber that you will testify the truth.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. Make yourself comfortable,
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you start giving evidence, I'd like to
21 confirm to you that following a request by the Prosecution we granted you
22 three protective measures, namely the use of a pseudonym instead of your
23 name, and the use of facial and voice distortion. I take it these have
24 been explained to you already. I just want a confirmation from you that
25 they are to your satisfaction.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 Mr. Thayer will go first. He will be asking you a few questions,
4 and then he will be followed by cross-examination from the Defence
5 witnesses -- Defence teams.
6 Mr. Thayer
7 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-146
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek.
10 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, if it pleases the Chamber, I just want
11 to bring up one issue, and I hope it doesn't continue, but for example for
12 this witness and the last witness even, they have witness statements which
13 are generated, for example, 21 -- 20 and 21 of January, they get e-mailed
14 to us yesterday afternoon. For example, we get a B/C/S copy, a hard
15 copy. We walk in court this morning, our clients don't speak English, but
16 even with that they can't even read the B/C/S copy in time to review it
17 and be able to talk to us about that. And, you know, we certainly all
18 want to fair trial here, but this is getting to be where they're handing
19 us statements on, really, the 11th and a half hour, where we don't even
20 have time to discuss with our clients the contents of them. I just want
21 to bring that to the Court's attention.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough.
23 Mr. Thayer.
24 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. I think I speak for
25 everyone on this side that we share Defence counsel's frustration. It's
1 simply a -- an artefact of what we're dealing with, having to take these
2 statements literally on the fly, get them generated and then translated,
3 and I can assure my learned colleague that he is receiving what he gets
4 almost as soon as I get it. We, for example, had that B/C/S translation
5 forwarded to me from a translator's home where we had to send it to her on
6 a Sunday, last night at 8.00. I e-mailed it about an hour later, and then
7 distributed the hard copies before the first session this morning. We're
8 going as quickly and as efficiently as we can, Mr. President. It's
9 uncomfortable, but it's just the facts we're dealing with.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, the Trial Chamber obviously understands that
11 you as well have been working over the weekend, but it's still -- your
12 explanation doesn't answer the problem that Mr. Meek has raised, namely
13 that with the availability of the B/C/S in particular version of the
14 statement, they haven't had time to consult with their respective clients,
15 and that is something that the Trial Chamber needs to address. I mean, I
16 do appreciate that you are all working around the clock, both Prosecution
17 and Defence teams, but there are certain safeguards that cannot be
18 sacrificed, in other words.
19 MR. MEEK: And Mr. President, I appreciate what my learned
20 colleague has said, but just for example the last witness indicated that
21 he had been spoken to over a month ago. And I assume this witness might
22 say the same thing, but yet we wait until the 11th and a half hour to get
23 the statement. That's just not fair.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I need to consult with my colleagues on
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Our position very simply put is that we fully
3 appreciate and agree with the submission made by Mr. Meek, which is
4 tantamount to asking the minimum, basically. So we do want to enjoin the
5 Office of the Prosecutor to make these -- first of all, to procure these
6 statements at the earliest, and secondly to make them available in both
7 languages to the Defence teams in a timely -- in a timely fashion. The
8 other thing is this, and this is perhaps more of concern for the Trial
9 Chamber. Namely, before we proceed with the testimony of this witness, I
10 want to make sure if any of the Defence teams wishes to have a short pause
11 and some -- some time to talk to their respective clients to consult with
12 their representative clients, in which case we will, of course, grant you
13 this. I'm thinking of about 10 minutes maximum. Or more if needed,
14 obviously, but I think 10 minutes would suffice.
15 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I for one will take you up on that
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, you think 10 minutes will suffice.
18 MR. MEEK: I think that should be sufficient. The statements
19 don't appear to be that long.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, the statement is pretty brief. So we will have
21 a 10-minute break during which you have an opportunity to consult with
22 your respective clients and we will resume soon after. And the witness
23 can be escorted -- I think we need to bring down the curtains first. You
24 will escort the witness. Make sure that he is escorted when the curtains
25 have been brought down. After that -- Thank you, we will have a 10-minute
2 --- Break taken at 1.17 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I take it we can proceed, Mr. Meek, and the
5 rest of the Defence teams? I hear no adverse comments.
6 Mr. Thayer.
7 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that he is a 95 ter witness too, isn't
10 MR. THAYER: That's correct, sir.
11 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
12 Q. Good afternoon, sir. You are about to be shown a piece of paper.
13 I just ask you to read it to yourself and confirm if you would that your
14 name is printed next to the name PW-146. And for the record the pseudonym
15 sheet is PO2381.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Sir, we met for the first time this past Saturday and then again
18 yesterday. Was a witness statement taken from you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you have it read back to you in your own language and did you
21 sign it, sir?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you attest before the Trial Chamber that that witness
24 statement is true and accurate?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And can you further attest that your answers would be the same if
2 you were asked those questions here in court?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Sir, I'd like to just read a brief summary of that witness
5 statement, and the statement for the record is PO2380.
6 MR. THAYER: And, Mr. President, if we move into private session
7 for a brief moment.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this is --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record this witness's pseudonym is PW-146.
11 Let's move into private session.
12 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 MR. THAYER: Beginning in approximately June 1995 until early
1 1996, the witness worked as an intercept operator at the northern
2 location. He described their shift structure, the equipment they used and
3 the procedures they followed to intercept and transcribe conversations.
4 At the time he knew that generals Miletic, Gvero, and Tolimir were
5 top VRS commanders on the General Staff, but did not know their functions.
6 At the time he was also familiar with their voices.
7 He then reviewed six typewritten intercepts and confirmed that he
8 intercepted, recorded and transcribed them. His name appears at the
9 bottom of each intercept, along with the name of his colleague.
10 That concludes the summary.
11 Q. Now, Witness, in preparing for your testimony today did you review
12 a packet containing material pertaining to four intercepts?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Specifically did that packet contain typewritten printouts of four
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And were you able, sir, to confirm whether or not those four
18 intercepts were conversations which you intercepted, recorded, and
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you, witness.
22 MR. THAYER: Your Honours, that concludes my direct examination.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.
24 Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We have no question for
1 this witness.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 Mr. Meek.
4 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, we're going to go out of turn this time,
5 so I think Ms. Nikolic will take it.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. I have two questions relating to the statement you gave to my
12 colleagues of the Office of the Prosecutor on January 20 and 21 of this
14 A. Very well.
15 Q. In your statement on page 3, paragraph 7, you explained that in
16 certain circumstances your boss from the northern locations, when an
17 exceptionally important conversation was being intercepted, he would take
18 the written version and the audiotape personally to the centre for it to
19 be transcribed there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Why would this happen?
22 A. There were situations when he just happened to be there. If the
23 intercept was so urgent and very interesting for us, in order to process
24 that work as soon as possible, and since he had a car, he would take that
25 down there because it would take us a lot of time to transcribe it and
1 then enter it into the computer and dispatch it down there. This happened
2 very infrequently.
3 Q. Was your boss always at the northern location with you and your
4 shift when you were working?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You would often work without him being there; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what would happen if he was not there and such conversations
10 A. Then we would apply the regular procedure.
11 Q. And there was no ill consequences then if the procedure was
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is next? Who wishes to go next?
18 Mr. Stojanovic.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no
20 questions for this witness.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Madam Fauveau.
22 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, in your statement you mentioned three
24 officers of the Republika Srpska army. Did you give their names as
25 spontaneously or did the Prosecutor ask you to tell him if you remembered
1 those officers?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you answer that question or would you like us to
5 refer you to the specific part from your statement?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can answer the
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead then.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We mentioned it without them asking
10 us first if we knew those people.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
12 Q. When you say "us" in plural, who do you mean?
13 A. I mean me.
14 Q. You've also stated that these people were commanders in the Main
15 Staff of the army of the Republika Srpska but that you did not know their
16 exact function. If you did not know their exact function, how can you say
17 that they were commanders?
18 A. Because the channels that were being monitored often mentioned
19 that it was the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, and that all
20 of the traffic most frequently proceeded along those specific channels and
21 from the Main Staff.
22 Q. Very well. So you knew that these people belonged to the Main
23 Staff of the army of the Republika Srpska, but how did you know that
24 within the Main Staff of the army of the Republika Srpska those people
25 were commanders? How do you know that they had a rank of a commander?
1 A. I didn't say that they were commanders, but that they were members
2 of the Main Staff. As long as they were sitting there and speaking from
3 those locations, that was my conclusion.
4 Q. Witness, in your statement on -- in paragraph 6 you said that
5 Generals Miletic, Gvero and Tolimir were commanders on the General Staff
6 of the army of the Republika Srpska. Can you tell us that that part of
7 the statement is not accurate?
8 A. You could hear these things in the media as well.
9 Q. So it is through the media that you learnt that these people were
10 commanders in the Republika Srpska?
11 A. People who had the rank of general probably were also commanders
12 in the army of Republika Srpska, and this is also affirmed or confirmed by
13 the location where they were.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... telling us when you
15 say "probably" in fact you had no idea what function these people held
16 within the Republika Srpska; is that right?
17 A. That's what I said.
18 Q. And the fact that you also said that they were commanders it was
19 only a guess on your part?
20 A. Well, I'm sure that you did not have just ordinary people sitting
21 at the Main Staff.
22 Q. Witness, if I tell you that the Main Staff of the army of the
23 Republika Srpska had only one commander, would you agree with me?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you need to answer that question.
25 Let's move to the next question, Madam Fauveau.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, is it exact to say that you arrived in June of 1995 to
3 that site where you worked?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And please tell us, when did you start recognising the voice of
6 General Tolimir?
7 A. After a couple of his conversations and also introductions.
8 Q. Can you tell us how long after you heard it for the first time did
9 you need to hear him --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Correction. Could Ms. Fauveau please repeat her
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau, could you kindly repeat your
13 question, please.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Can you tell us how much time did you need to start recognising
16 the voice of General Tolimir?
17 A. I really couldn't say.
18 Q. Is it possible to think that you needed many months to recognise
19 his voice?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
21 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, given his last answer, I don't think
22 this is going to be a fruitful endeavour to continue with these
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, go ahead and answer the question,
1 please. You are being asked did you really need months, many months to
2 recognise his voice?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And for Miletic, when did you start recognising his voice?
7 A. Well, I couldn't really give you a time-frame.
8 Q. Did you arrive there at the beginning or at the end of the month
9 of June?
10 A. I don't know precisely. I know it was sometime in mid-month.
11 Q. And were you able to hear Miletic as soon as you arrived on that
13 A. It's possible.
14 Q. And do you know what rank he held in the month of June?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So you cannot at all tell us if that was indeed a rank of
18 A. I know that later they referred to him or they addressed him as
19 General Miletic.
20 Q. And when you say it was after, can you tell us when?
21 A. When I arrived up there I didn't immediately get a conversation by
22 General Miletic, but after a certain amount of time, after I had heard a
23 couple of his conversations, I found out that this was General Miletic,
24 and after a certain period of time I was able to recognise his voice.
25 Q. You have already stated that you cannot give us a time-frame as to
1 when you started recognising his voice, but do you remember when you were
2 able to hear him talk and intercept his conversations?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Sir, you said that those three officers -- you have mentioned them
5 spontaneously. How is it that of all the generals of the Republika Srpska
6 you have mentioned precisely those three people?
7 A. We heard of many other generals, and we heard many other generals,
8 but --
9 Q. Why did you not mention the other generals?
10 A. Because they were at the very top at the time, and they were
11 calling from the Main Staff.
12 Q. You did tape the intercepts of Mladic, General Mladic; why did you
13 not mention this?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why didn't you mention General Mladic instead of these three?
16 A. I don't know exactly, but they were featured and also he was
17 featured in the intercepted conversations.
18 Q. When you made those statements at the beginning were you told that
19 it had to do with a procedure against these three persons?
20 A. No. I knew that I was coming as a witness for seven accused, but
21 not which ones.
22 Q. Were you given the occasion to see in the media who were the
23 accused in this case?
24 A. Yes. But I wasn't interested, and I couldn't really remember the
25 seven people who were there, because they are not the only ones there.
1 Q. If I put to you that indeed you did mention those three names
2 because you knew very well this was proceedings against these people.
3 Isn't this true?
4 A. That is your opinion.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no other question to ask,
6 Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Will there be further
9 MR. JOSSE: We have a little bit of cross-examination for this
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek.
12 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I think we may have a little bit also, but
13 maybe not.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes.
15 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, I will not, no. Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Who you say a little, how little?
17 MR. JOSSE: Probably one question.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Meek.
19 MR. MEEK: Five minutes, perhaps 10.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 10 -- we have overstayed already by six
21 minutes. My suggestion, if I have the cooperation of everyone is we stay
22 a further six minutes and we finish with this witness.
23 Let's adjourn, because otherwise we'll -- the Prlic case will have
24 to start late, and that's not fair.
25 So we will adjourn until tomorrow. Witness, between today
1 tomorrow when we will continue with your testimony, you are not to
2 approach or let anyone approach and discuss the matters that you are
3 testifying upon or the subject matter of these proceedings.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of
8 January, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.