1 Tuesday, 23 January 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. The accused Nikolic is still
10 not with us. The situation I take it is the same, we still have his
12 Mr. Ostojic is back, Mr. Bourgon is still absent. When are we
13 going to see Mr. Bourgon back, Madam Nikolic?
14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I expect him in the course of this
15 day. I expect he will join us today.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Is he preparing a big motion?
17 Mr. Ostojic is back. The rest are all here. Mr. Thayer and
18 Mr. McCloskey. The witness is -- I couldn't see him, yeah.
19 Sorry, my apologies to you, Mr. Vanderpuye, the column is in the
21 So good morning to you, Witness, welcome back.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I trust that within 15 minutes you will be out of
24 this courtroom. So Mr. Thayer, he is all yours.
25 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I believe we're continuing with
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Ah yes, yes. It's Mr. Josse and Mr. Meek who are
3 left, yes. Mr. Josse.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-146 [Resumed]
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:
6 Q. Witness, it's right that yesterday you told the Court you were
7 familiar with the voice of, amongst others, General Gvero?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could the witness be shown the packet of four intercepts that are
10 being introduced through him. If the usher is uncertain, perhaps I could
11 look at it briefly just to check that it's the right bundle of documents.
12 That is the correct packet, it's, in fact, been updated, as it says.
13 Witness, unfortunately the index is in English only. I don't
14 think that's going to matter very much, but perhaps I could ask you, do
15 you read English?
16 A. No.
17 Q. As I say, I think you'll still be able to use the index. You see
18 those four intercepts that, as I've already said have been introduced into
19 evidence or going to be introduced into evidence through you. It's right,
20 isn't it, that General Gvero was not a participant in any of those four
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Yes, thank you very much.
24 MR. JOSSE: I have nothing else.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:
2 Q. Good morning, Witness. How are you today?
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. Sir, I just want to clarify a few points. Is it true that I
5 understood you correctly yesterday, and -- you began your duties at the
6 site that we've been discussing at -- in late June of 1995?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you had no formal training whatsoever in this field before you
9 were assigned that job?
10 A. For this job, no.
11 Q. And I'm correct also in understanding that when you began at
12 the -- your job at the site which is in issue, you worked seven-day
13 shifts, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And so you'd work seven days at the site, then you'd work seven --
16 or go home to Tuzla for seven days, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you stated in your testimony and in your statement to the
19 Office of the Prosecutor that you became familiar with certain channels
20 and the voices of military personnel; isn't that what you said, sir?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But are you telling this Trial Chamber under oath that you became
23 familiar with the voices of certain staff members from the General Staff
24 of the VRS by the fall of Srebrenica in July, mid-July of 1995, when you'd
25 only began working in late June, and you only worked seven days on and
1 went to Tuzla for seven days off?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Well, how many times would it take for you to hear a voice before
4 you recognised it? Once? Would one time be enough, sir?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Mr. Meek, I hate to interrupt you, but that
6 question was asked repeatedly by Madam Fauveau and actually at a point in
7 time I even stopped her.
8 MR. MEEK: Well, Your Honour, she did ask that question, but I
9 don't think we ever got an answer to it. In that --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course he did. He even went as far as to -- to
11 say that he didn't need months. I mean it's starting from days, but
12 anyway, go ahead. Ask the question.
13 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Judge.
14 Q. So, Witness, if you picked up a conversation and started recording
15 it and listening to it the very first time you were then familiar with
16 that voice and you would hear it and recognise who that person was without
17 them saying their name from there on out. Is that what you're telling
18 this Trial Chamber?
19 A. Not immediately, but frequently the speakers would introduce
20 themselves. Since they had to ask for a telephone connection through a
21 switchboard, you would often hear sentences like, "Wait a minute, the
22 General is not here," "the General will take it," and such things.
23 Q. During your -- during your time working at this location, were you
24 ever involved or taught about misinformation?
25 A. It was not my job to think about such things. My job was to do
1 what I had to do and to forward it. And somebody at the other end was
2 supposed to say whether that was propaganda or not.
3 MR. MEEK: I think we need -- I just have two more questions, Your
4 Honour, and I think we need to go into private session for these.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. No problem.
6 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 MR. MEEK: I'm sorry, yes, we can go into open session, obviously.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, we are in open session now.
20 Mr. Haynes, just a confirmation from you that you don't have any
22 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination, Mr. Thayer?
24 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, that's all. As I explained to you, your
1 testimony has come to an end. You are free to go. Madam Usher will
2 escort you out of the courtroom. On behalf of the Tribunal, I wish to
3 thank you for having come over to give evidence in this trial. And I also
4 on behalf of everyone wish you a safe --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- also wish you a safe journey back home. Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was my job then,
8 my duty and responsibility to contribute in some way to the Defence of my
9 country, and I am happy to appear here as a Prosecution witness against
10 these accused who tried to destroy my country.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents.
14 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I believe everybody has been furnished
15 with a copy of our tender sheet.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Any objections on the part of the Defence
17 teams? I hear none. So ...
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. There is a concern shown by some -- one of my
20 colleagues in relation to line 13 -- line 12 on the -- on page 6, where,
21 after the witness's statement I said thank you. I wasn't thanking him for
22 saying -- using the words "against the three accused who tried to destroy
23 my country." We keep ourselves completely out of -- from that. I mean, I
24 take it for granted that we are on the same wavelength on that. Yes,
25 thank you.
1 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I just add that once again that
2 everything in bold be placed under seal, please.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, basically means everything. The first two of
4 these documents, that's the witness statement and the pseudonym sheet are
5 admitted, with the respective numbers 02380 and 02381, the rest being
6 intercepts will be marked for identification and in the meantime preserved
7 under -- kept under seal. All right.
8 Next witness. For the record, this last witness who finished, in
9 case it doesn't show up in the transcript was PW-146, and the next one
10 will be PW-136.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir. And welcome to this
13 Tribunal. You are soon going to start giving evidence. Our Rules require
14 that before you do so you make a solemn declaration to the effect that you
15 will be testifying the truth. The text of the solemn declaration is being
16 handed to you now by Madam Usher. Please read it out aloud, and that will
17 be your solemn undertaking with this Tribunal.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable.
21 There are a few things I need to explain to you before you start giving
22 evidence. Prosecution requested and was granted by the Trial Chamber
23 three protective measures in your respect. First is the use of a
24 pseudonym instead of your real name and surname. The other two are facial
25 and voice distortion. I suppose these have been explained to you by our
1 officers. I just want to confirm with you that they are to your
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Vanderpuye, who you've met already,
5 will be examining you in chief, specifically referring to a witness
6 statement that you made way back on the 6th of May of 1999. He will
7 follow with a few questions and then I'll pass you over to the Defence
8 teams for their cross-examination.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-136
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning. Good
12 morning Your Honours, good morning, counsel, good morning, Witness.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Just one piece of advice, word
14 of advice. The witness's voice is such that it is extremely important
15 that everyone keeps the microphone switched off when he is speaking.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
18 Q. For the record, may I have PO2384, please, shown to the witness.
19 Good morning, Witness, could you please look at that document and
20 without telling us what's on it, could you confirm whether or not you are
21 the person that is named on it?
22 A. Yes, my name is on this piece of paper. My full name.
23 Q. May I proceed, Mr. President?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and that will remain under seal.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
1 Q. Sir, I'm going to put to you a few questions. I would ask if you
2 could to allow a short pause between the question and the answer so that
3 the interpreter can keep up with you. And also try to keep your voice up
4 so that we can all hear you clearly.
5 Do you recall having given a statement to the Office of the
6 Prosecutor signed and acknowledged on 6 May of 1999?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And was the statement that you gave at that time truthful?
9 A. Yes, it was truthful.
10 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read your statement before having
11 come to testify here today?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you read the statement in your native language?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And was the -- was that the language that you originally gave the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And for the record, what language is that?
19 A. Bosnian.
20 Q. Now, having read the statement, were there some clarifications
21 that you felt needed to be made?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did that refer -- did that refer to specific information
24 contained in the statement, and I will -- I will ...
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And was that specific information with respect to your job
2 concerning the surveillance of enemy telegrams?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And would it be more accurate to say that that work involved
5 actually intercepting coded telegrams?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And was the specific information with respect to your knowledge of
8 the operation of the State Security Services and the 2nd Corps?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And would it be more accurate to say that you knew that they were
11 involved in work similar to yours but not their specific protocol of
13 A. I assumed that the operatives of the 2nd Corps were doing the same
14 job as we did, whereas I had no idea what the state security people were
15 doing. I had my assumptions, but I don't really know what they were
17 Q. Subject to those clarifications, was the statement that you --
18 does the statement that you gave 6th May of 1999 accurately reflect what
19 you said?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And does it fairly and accurately reflect what you would say, were
22 you to be examined here today?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: With that, Your Honours, I would offer the
25 statement into evidence. PO2383, pursuant to 92 ter. I do have a brief
1 summary of the statement, if I may read that into the record.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the first couple of paragraphs I would like
4 to proceed in private session, if we could.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. Let's go into private session
6 straight away.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Upon his assignment to
8 the northern site, the witness received 15 days' of training and began
9 processing intercepted communications, following a process of scanning,
10 listening, recording, and transcribing conversations on to sheets of paper
11 and then into notebooks. These sheets of paper were discarded once the
12 witness completed transcribing notebook entries, usually at the end of a
13 shift. The notebooks themselves, however, would never -- would be turned
14 over to the unit commander, typed and sent via computer to the command.
15 The witness believed that filled notebooks were retained by the commander
16 and taken to the command.
17 The focus of the unit was mostly on the communications of high
18 level VRS officers, typically covering areas for which the 2nd Corps was
19 responsible. This would be intensified in areas where there was an
20 offensive going on.
21 Upon shift changes, operators were given information regarding the
22 frequencies to be monitored and about important occurrences that needed to
23 be focused upon.
24 Over time, the witness became familiar with the voices of certain
25 officers and would use their names or code-names in transcription if he
1 knew their identity, where the identity of the collocutors was not known,
2 X and Y were used.
3 Tapes were reused due to supply shortages and in some instances
4 conversations were not taped, but directly transcribed or summarised.
5 The witness served as an operator at the northern site until
6 November of 1995.
7 That concludes my statement.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. Any questions?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have really only a few.
10 Q. Witness, have you had an opportunity to review the packet of
11 intercept communications, three of them, that are contained in a packet?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In particular, did you review the handwritten material that was
14 contained in that packet?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you recognise your handwriting in all three of the
17 communications that are contained in the packet?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you transcribe that material into a notebook, pursuant to
20 your responsibilities and duties as an intercept operator?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review the original material or the
23 original notebook, I'm sorry, containing these handwritten intercepts?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And are you satisfied that the copies of the intercepts that are
1 contained in the packet conform to the originals?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At this time I would like to have the original notebook placed on
4 the ELMO, if I could.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Sure.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the record that's PO2369, ERN 0080-4625
7 through 4742. In e-court is it possible to have displayed, please, 65 ter
8 1179A? I just wanted to position the notebook on the ELMO to the specific
9 point of reference, if I could. Thank you very much, Madam Usher.
10 Q. Okay. Right at the top could you just tell us if you can see on
11 your notebook a conversation that was taken down at 9.55?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Could I just move down the page a little bit? Okay.
14 That's very good. Thank you.
15 Okay. Do you see the phrase in your notebook referring to a
16 person by the name or -- by the name of Burtula. It says, "Burtula didn't
17 carry out the boss's order." Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, a few lines below that there is a reference to three men, and
20 in between there is a series of dots. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell the Court whether the dots -- or what the dots are
23 intended to mean, whether or not that particular portion is unintelligible
24 or whether or not that particular portion simply could not be heard, that
25 is that there was interference or something of that nature?
1 A. This part of the conversation, because of interference, could
2 not be heard. It wasn't audible. So I didn't note that down in the
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Probably there was some interference.
6 Q. Could you -- could would he just go down to the bottom of this --
7 what's in e-court, the bottom of the translation? And turn the page,
8 please, on the ELMO. I'm sorry, I mean the second page of the
9 translation. Thank you. Thank you.
10 At the end of this intercept there is an indication, and you tell
11 us if you find it in your notebook, that the rest was not recorded. Do
12 you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And can you explain to the Court the circumstances under which
15 that would have occurred or may have occurred in this case?
16 A. I assume that it's what would sometimes happen, that the tape had
17 come to an end and that you could not record the rest of the conversation,
18 because the tape had come to an end.
19 Q. Were there any circumstances under which the tape was actually --
20 rather than coming to an end was turned off deliberately in relation to
21 recording an intercept?
22 A. No, no. It was never done intentionally. The recording was never
23 stopped intentionally. The only thing that could have happened was that
24 the tape would come to an end.
25 Q. And it was your -- was it your practice, I should say, to -- to
1 make this specific designation that the rest was not recorded under those
3 A. Yes, yes. When this happened, then you would put in parentheses
4 that the rest was not recorded, meant that the conversation went on after
6 Q. If I could just refer the witness to page -- the page in the
7 notebook with the ERN ending 4638.
8 Witness, there is a date that appears to be indicated on this
9 particular page. It reads 15.07.1995. Is that the date that the
10 intercept that we have been speaking about was recorded?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Could we just turn over the page to 04639, please. And I
13 want to refer you to an intercept that begins at 8.55 a.m. Do you see
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was that -- was that particular intercept also recorded on the
17 15th July 1995?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. For the record that's PO2385.
20 And -- I'm sorry. And may I just switch notebooks for a moment?
22 For the record, the witness is being shown the second notebook,
23 P02386, ERN range 0078-1141 through 1328. Specifically page 0078-1235 is
24 now on the ELMO.
25 Witness, there is also a date written on this page, 13.07.1995.
1 Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can I just turn the page, please? In the middle of the page there
4 is a -- appears to be an intercept that beginning recording -- well, top
5 of the page now, at 1602. Do you see that, Witness?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you confirm that the date that this intercept -- well,
8 first -- well, can you confirm that the date of this intercept -- that the
9 date that was recorded was 13th July, 1995?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: With that, Your Honours, I have no -- oh, okay.
12 That's 65 ter 1142, and with that I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. And also for having
14 kept within the time limits indicated by the Trial Chamber.
15 Now, have you organised yourselves, Defence teams? Mr. Zivanovic
16 is going first.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. You said that at this facility which we will call the northern
22 facility, that you worked in shifts there, that switched from between
23 seven to 10 days. Can you please tell me how many people there were in
24 one shift?
25 A. From six to nine people, usually.
1 Q. And can you remember the period of July 1995?
2 A. I cannot remember specifically, but I know that there were between
3 six to nine people there who worked at one time. And we worked 24 hours a
4 day. We covered 24 hours.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me, you know that there was
6 another unit right next to you, you've already told us that. Can you tell
7 whether there were -- that unit was bigger than your section or smaller?
8 A. I really couldn't be sure, but I think that the unit was bigger.
9 Q. Thank you. You mentioned in your statement -- you mentioned the
10 commander. You didn't mention his name though. So what I would like to
11 ask you is if you remember his name, but please do not speak it out, even
12 though if you -- even though if you remember it.
13 A. Yes, yes, I remember his nickname.
14 Q. Could we move to private session for a moment, Your Honours, so
15 that we could have the witness tell us this nickname?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's what I was going to suggest in any case.
17 So let's go into private session for a short while, please.
18 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now. Thank you.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You mentioned that the commander entered the data into the
7 computer. Is that the first one whose nickname you mentioned or the other
8 one that you mentioned?
9 A. It was the first one I mentioned.
10 Q. You also said that the notebooks that you had where you wrote down
11 the intercepts, that the commander would enter the date of each day and he
12 would also enter the date at the end of the day. Which commander did
13 that, the first one or the second one?
14 A. I really don't know who put in the date at the end of the day of
15 those two, I really couldn't say.
16 Q. You gave a statement to the Tribunal investigators, and you've
17 already told us about that. In that statement I saw that 10 days before
18 you gave the statement you got in touch with a person, perhaps we could
19 move into private session just for a moment so that I can mention the name
20 of the person.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's move into private session again,
23 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. You said then that that person, 10 days before you gave your
17 statement, showed you some notebooks. I would like to ask you where this
18 took place.
19 A. We met in a cafe on the first floor in the place where I live.
20 Q. And that's where he showed you the notebooks, at the cafe?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. Was anybody else present other than the two of you?
23 A. Well, I really cannot remember that. I don't remember if anybody
24 from the Tribunal was there.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for
2 this witness, Your Honours, thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
4 Mr. Ostojic.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour, good morning. If I may have
6 the little stand there.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:
8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. I would like to initially ask you questions about the process that
11 you undertook to, after listening to a purported conversation to record it
12 on a piece of paper. And a process is written in your statement, as you
13 describe it, dated the 6th of May, 1999. It appears on the page with ERN
14 number 00778108, the first full paragraph. And sir you state as follows:
15 "I did not keep any notes or write anything down except in the notebooks
16 and the only other information was what was on the computer or on the
17 disks. When a call came in, I did write down the time the call came, and
18 normally the initials of the people involved on a sheet or scratch of
19 paper. I would also write down the whole conversation on the piece of
20 paper after listening to the tape, and then write it out neatly in the
21 notebook. After the shift, the paper would be thrown out. I normally
22 wrote out the conversation from the paper into the notebook at the end of
23 the shift."
24 It appears again, as I state, on your statement on page 00778108.
25 Do you remember giving that statement to the Prosecutor?
1 A. Yes, I remember. I would transcribe the conversations not on a
2 piece of paper, but into a notebook. I had to write quickly. Then what I
3 took down first I would recopy into another notebook, because then I would
4 have enough time and my handwriting would be much nicer and it would be
5 more -- much easier to read.
6 Q. Sir, also in your statement on page 00778109 you reference a
7 Colonel Ljubo, but you don't give a last name. Can you tell us in May of
8 1999, did you know the last name of the colonel who you reference as
9 Colonel Ljubo?
10 A. I knew it at the time, but that's how I wrote it down. I knew it
11 was Ljubomir Beara.
12 Q. And how do you know, sir, that his first name is Ljubomir?
13 A. I knew it because when I got up there in 1995 you knew everything,
14 the call signs of each general, it was on a piece of paper. You knew who
15 used each -- who used which code, and their full first and last name was
17 Q. In preparing for your testimony here, sir, and in giving your
18 statement in 1999, did you look through your book to notice how many times
19 you actually captured a conversation which involved Mr. Beara?
20 A. What was shown to me, I looked at, I looked at the notebooks where
21 I noted down the conversations, and I could see that it was my handwriting
22 and my signature. So I could look at what was presented to me.
23 Q. Okay. Well, other than that one entry at 9.55, were there any
24 other entries that you reviewed or saw, sir, in your logbook that was
25 either shown to you or you independently made a review of your logbook,
1 which would indicate you captured a conversation with Mr. Beara?
2 A. I saw an intercept where he introduced himself. That's the one
3 that I saw.
4 Q. Well, now, let's look at your intercept that you, with your
5 handwritten note at 9.55 you mentioned just now that you signed it. I
6 looked at the intercept and I couldn't find your signature on that
7 intercept, sir. Can you please, with the Court's assistance -- or Court's
8 approval and the usher's assistance point out to me where on this
9 intercept at 9.55 that you actually place your signature? And maybe the
10 original logbook, it might go quicker if we could have the usher place it
11 on the ELMO. It has ERN number 0080-4642 and 43 respectively.
12 Sir, do you have the intercept in front of you that we are
13 referencing at 9.55? I think the page prior, if we may. Do you see that,
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That intercept starts with the frequency of 255850/955. Do you
17 see that?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. And then it carries on to the next page where you say that you
20 were unable to capture the remainder of the conversation and then you
21 explained that to the Court a little bit. Do you see that on the next
23 A. Yes. Yes, I see it.
24 Q. Then underneath that there is a line with an arrow pointing
25 upwards, I guess, in the northerly direction; do you see that as well?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Where within those two sections does your name or signature
3 appear, sir, from this conversation of 9.55, as you so claim you signed
5 A. I am not claiming. I said that I signed it, I don't see it here
6 though, so it's possible that I forgot, that I failed to put it there. It
7 would sometimes happen, but still I know that it is my handwriting and
8 that it was I who transcribed the conversation from the tape. Perhaps I
9 just forgot to put my signature there. Mostly I signed each intercept and
10 perhaps, as in this case, sometimes it would happen that I forgot to put
11 the signature there. But this is my handwriting and it means that I
12 transcribed the conversation from the tape.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. The entry immediately below what you claim to
14 be your handwriting in this intercept, can you tell us what time that
15 conversation was captured, sir, by looking at that entry immediately below
16 it on 00804643?
17 A. 1521.
18 Q. And, sir, does that indicate that's approximately, what, 3.21,
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And is it your testimony, sir, that this was the very next entry
24 that was captured and from 9.55 until 3.21 there were no conversations
25 that were captured or recorded because there were no conversations taking
1 place during that eight or so hours, correct? Or six or so hours.
2 A. Maybe there were some conversations, but they were probably not
3 very important. I can't tell now. Maybe we were changing the tape or
4 waiting for another tape to arrive, I don't know exactly why such a long
5 break was made. Maybe the tape had run out, maybe something was broken in
6 our equipment. I cannot tell you the exact reason for that long pause.
7 Q. Sir, in your statement you state that you recognised the voice of
8 Colonel Ljubo, and you further state, "I knew his voice well," and that's
9 on page 00778109 in the second full paragraph. Can you tell us, sir, how
10 is it that you knew his voice well?
11 A. We had enough experience to identify some of the higher officers
12 by voice, and I know that because when I get a call from friends of mine I
13 never make a mistake, whoever they are.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... answer. But my question is
15 really related to someone who you never met, correct? Did you ever meet
16 Mr. Beara?
17 A. No, never.
18 Q. Did you speak to him on the telephone at any time?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And from looking at your logbook, sir, and given that the
21 Prosecutor never showed you any other entries that you purportedly have
22 captured a conversation from Mr. Beara, how often, as you sit here, sir,
23 do you think that you had heard or overheard a conversation where
24 Mr. Beara was a participant?
25 A. Well, I cannot be sure. It was a long time ago, but I heard the
2 Q. Okay. Well, I found none other than this one claim, sir. But
3 given that can you describe for this Court any distinctive features in
4 Mr. Beara's voice that you claim in your statement given under oath that
5 the Prosecutor seeks to introduce into evidence that you knew his voice
6 well? Share with us, sir, what aspects of his voice you knew well.
7 A. Well, if you asked me about that in July 1995, I would be able to
8 write it down. But after 12 years I cannot really tell you the features
9 of that conversation.
10 Q. I didn't get the last part, sir. I think you said it's
11 impossible, "nemoguce," correct?
12 A. Now, after 12 years, it's impossible for me to remember the
13 features, because I know that some of the generals used the certain words
14 that are typical for Serbia proper, they had distinctive features of
15 speech, accents, et cetera. But now, after 12 years, I cannot tell you
16 what were the distinctive features of each one of them.
17 Q. What about in 1999, sir, when you gave the statement to the Office
18 of the Prosecutor, did they at any time, sir, ask you how is it that you
19 knew Colonel Ljubo's voice well and seek from you what characteristics or
20 features of his voice you claim that you knew well? Did they ask you
21 those questions in 1999, May 6th?
22 A. No, I don't think so.
23 Q. Okay. How about this, sir: Did you volunteer any of that
24 specific information to point out what the distinctive features or
25 characteristics of Mr. Beara's voice was as you claim it to be in 1995 to
1 the Prosecutor on May of 1999 when you gave the statement?
2 A. I don't remember that.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: And then a final issue, if I may, Your Honours.
4 Q. Sir, if the southern site captured the same conversation, you
5 would expect that the conversations would be identical, would you not?
6 A. Not necessarily. If it was a duplex connection, maybe the person
7 on the southern location was listening to one participant, I was listening
8 to the other participant, to the other speaker. We were listening to the
9 same conversation but we would have different transcripts.
10 Q. Now, let's look at your conversation at -- to the right on the
11 ELMO at 9.55. Did you hear one side of the conversation or both sides,
13 [Microphone not activated]
14 A. From this we see that we heard two speakers, two participants.
15 And there could have been more than two. I heard two.
16 Q. Well -- thank you. And so let's assume then that the southern
17 site also heard two participants in this conversation. Given that you're
18 both listening to the same conversation, would you expect line for line
19 the conversation that was being captured to be identical?
20 A. If they were listening to the same participants as I, then yes,
21 that would have been logical.
22 Q. And the reason for that is, sir, that your job, as well as the job
23 of members in the southern site was not to interpret or to add things to
24 the conversation, but merely to record simultaneous and contemporaneous
25 conversations that you may have heard, correct?
1 A. Right. From this conversation that I transcribed from the tape,
2 you see that there are some distinctive words, and I took it verbatim down
3 from the tape.
4 Q. Well, highlight those for me, sir.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, I don't know if your colleague has
6 informed you about the decision of the Trial Chamber.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: They have, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So you've got three minutes left.
9 Okay. Thank you.
10 MR. JOSSE: My learned friend is welcome to have our time if he
11 needs it, Your Honour.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Josse, but there are others as well
14 who might be very happy to take your time too. So I don't want to put you
15 in competition. So try to finish in three minutes' time, then when we
16 have gone the round, if there are problems we'll -- we'll address them.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. I think we're waiting for an answer. Sir, can you point out for
19 us those distinctive words which you took verbatim from the tape?
20 A. All the words you see in this conversation were taken down
21 verbatim from the tape, and if necessary I can read out the whole
23 Q. We have it, thank you. I thought that you had mentioned there
24 were some distinctive words, and we'll look at that again just to make
25 sure, because -- given the time constraints. Sir, can you look quickly on
1 the participant's section of this conversation; on 9.55, the name "Ljubo"
2 is written on top. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When was that change or -- if you could see there seems to be some
5 writing over the original writing of the name. When was that done and by
7 A. I just made this B a little thicker, boldened it. Maybe my pencil
8 broke and then I drew the line again. I did that myself. Nothing here
9 was tampered with or corrected. You see the B and the letter that is
10 pronounced "lj" written like L-j are also bold.
11 Q. And when did you make this bold B and J in the name Ljubo?
12 A. Right there and then when I was transcribing the conversation. I
13 boldened these letters because my pencil may have sort of skipped.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, given the Court's ruling, we have no
15 other questions at this time of this witness. Thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
17 JUDGE KWON: I would like to hear what the -- just a second.
18 Distinctive? I don't remember the words. If the witness would be able to
19 identify some distinctive words as it -- as he put them.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the words in this conversation,
21 from "P," the first letter of Pukovnik, colonel; "Alo," meaning hello; it
22 goes on, "Come on, answer it, colonel." Then you see a part of the
23 conversation that I was unable to hear. You see three dots, probably
24 somebody was trying to interfere. The colonel says, "Ljubo, Beara" so he
25 introduced himself. K, Krstic, he also introduced himself. P, colonel,
1 says, "hello" again. Krstic says, "I'm listening to you, Beara."
2 Krstic --
3 JUDGE KWON: Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Witness. Why do you say
4 they are distinctive? In what sense or for what reason?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am reading to you the entire
6 conversation as I intercepted it. All these words were taken verbatim
7 from the tape. As they were talking each word was recorded in the
8 notebook. There is not a single word that I recorded descriptively or
9 paraphrased. I took it all down verbatim. There are even some illogical
10 things, like towards the bottom he ordered to him that three men, three
11 dots, from the army and it seems to be a -- in the spirit of a local
12 dialect, but I took it down as it was.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic.
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. I have a couple of questions regarding your testimony today. On
20 page 10, lines 12 to 18 you described the other unit that was there, and
21 your knowledge about their work on the northern location. That is the two
22 operators from the State Security Service, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At the northern location, according to your statement of the 6th
25 of May, 1999, you spent almost a full six months?
1 A. Beginning with March, yes.
2 Q. Your centre consisted of one room housing your team and next to
3 you were those two employees of the State Security Service who were doing
4 their own job?
5 A. Yes, I remember it very well. At the entrance of the building the
6 first one on the left was their office, and the next one on the left was
7 our office.
8 Q. And after six months there, seeing them every day, you had an
9 opinion about them, and you stated that opinion in that statement of the
10 6th of May, 1999?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Your memory was fresher then and you said that your opinion was
13 that their task was to monitor your soldiers and what they were doing, to
14 check on your intercepts, and to verify whether radio stations were used
15 properly on the ground?
16 A. Yes. That's what I thought, that's what I assumed, and there is
17 an old saying that says that assumptions were the mother of all mistakes.
18 However, that was my opinion then, otherwise I had no particular insight
19 into their work, nor did I have any contacts with them.
20 Q. So at that time in 1999 when you were interviewed by OTP
21 investigators it was your opinion that that job was to monitor your work,
22 your units and your soldiers, to keep them under surveillance?
23 A. Yes, I said that's what they were doing.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait, wait. Your microphone.
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go ahead.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time I stated that it was my
3 opinion as to what their job was. I assumed that's what they were doing,
4 and as I said, assumptions were the mother of all mistakes. Which means
5 that it was only my opinion. I had no other knowledge of what they were
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
10 Mr. Stojanovic.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. I have a couple of questions concerning the method of your work.
15 Just from looking at these notes that we received immediately before you
16 appeared in court. I want to know about the situation where you are
17 listening to a conversation and you can't identify the speakers. You ask
18 others for assistance in recording that conversation; is that correct?
19 A. I asked for assistance if I'm unable to distinguish a word. We
20 rewind and rewind several times and I invite other people, including the
21 commander, because maybe I am the only one who cannot hear it properly, so
22 I invite others to listen to the same recording and see if they can make
23 out what was being said.
24 Q. Did it ever occur to you that when other people were lending you a
25 hand in such a way you were also told by others who the participants in
1 the conversation were, according to their speech mannerisms, accents, et
3 A. Well, I had other colleagues and my commander who were able to
4 identify speakers, but I don't remember asking them specifically for that
5 kind of assistance. I -- I was recording for instance a conversation
6 where the speakers were X and Y, and I can't remember whether I would
7 invite somebody to help me identify the speakers, to put a name on them.
8 Q. If situations like that occurred, would you note it down in any
9 way that somebody else helped you identify the speakers? Would you make
10 that note in parentheses or put a question mark or something like that?
11 A. I cannot answer that question at all, because I cannot remember
12 that I received such assistance or that I asked for it, I really can't
14 Q. If a participant in a conversation did not introduce himself and
15 you did recognise the voice, and wrote his name down in the intercept, did
16 you spell that out in any way that you recognised the voice rather than
17 heard the name?
18 A. No. No, I did not do that. And anyway there were very few
19 conversations in which I would write the names down because I recognised
20 them. Only when I was 100 per cent sure. If I had the slightest question
21 in my mind I did not proceed in that way. It was only when I was 100 per
22 cent sure about the identity of certain persons that I wrote down their
23 names. Otherwise I would write X and Y, whenever I did not have a 100 per
24 cent certainty as to their identity.
25 Q. The way I hear you now, such situations did not occur; you never
1 wrote a name down and then put a question mark next to it. You either
2 wrote a name down when you were 100 per cent sure or alternatively, you
3 wrote X and Y?
4 A. You are correct. I never put question marks next to a name
5 because that would denote a dilemma and that would not have been proper.
6 There was no room for dilemmas and assumptions in our job. We were doing
7 that for the purposes and requirements of our army. We could not afford
8 to do such things; we had to know exactly who was doing what and how.
9 Q. I'm not asking you this because I made this up, I'm saying this
10 because we had heard the testimony of many other operators who used that
11 particular method of work. I'm just asking you about the unit where you
12 come from, because we heard operators from various agencies. So did the
13 unit that you belonged to follow that rule that you describe?
14 A. I'm speaking only in my own name. I personally did not put
15 question marks to denote uncertainty. And I cannot speak about other
16 units and their way of work, because I had no insight into their
17 organisation and their methods. I can only speak about myself in my own
18 name. I did not use that practice of question marks.
19 Q. Did it ever occur that when you were unable to hear something you
20 used not only dots but also asterisks?
21 A. Possibly dots and asterisks. Maybe even a dotted line. All these
22 were used to denote a part of a conversation that we were unable to hear
23 well because of temporary interference.
24 Q. What I mean to ask you is this: In your unit did you have any
25 instructions as to designating a particular situation with dots as opposed
1 to other situations that are denoted with asterisks?
2 A. No. It was left to us to decide how we would denote passages that
3 we were unable to hear. We used dots, dotted lines, asterisks. When you
4 see something like that, it meant that parts of the conversation were
5 either not recorded at all or certain passages were impossible to make out
6 due to interference and even after rewinding the tape several times the
7 operator could not distinguish the words.
8 Q. I'm sorry, maybe we are talking rather fast and it all has to be
9 recorded in the transcript.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone. I don't want this to become an
12 Witness, it's mostly your fault because you are jumping straight
13 into answering a question before it has even been finished. And that
14 means that the microphone of counsel's microphone has not yet been
15 switched off. Your voice carries. We are trying to protect your
16 identity. So you have to exercise a little -- I can't keep on watching
17 whether it's switched off in time or not. Please try to allow a pause
18 between question and answer and don't start answering the question until
19 you have seen the microphones -- red microphone light switch switched
21 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We will
23 do our best.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not your fault, Mr. Stojanovic. It's the
25 witness's fault.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, thank you very
3 Q. I don't think a part of your answer is really recorded. What was
4 the practice of your unit regarding identification of speakers in a
5 conversation? Did you ever use the practice of putting question marks
6 next to the name of a person that you think you identified, that you
7 potentially identified?
8 A. I can speak only in my own name. I did not use the practice of
9 denoting my own dilemmas as to the identity of the speaker. I did not
10 use that method of putting a question mark next to a name. You also
11 asked me about dots, asterisks, and dotted lines. It was not important
12 which one of these you used, all of those were used to denote part of
13 intercepts that could not be transcribed either because participants
14 could not be heard because of interference or certain words could not
15 be distinguished.
16 Q. And let me conclude. What was the focus of your work and scanning
17 of conversations in that half of 1995?
18 A. If you mean specifically Srebrenica, the focus was on the entire
19 offensive of the units of the VRS and that entire area of Srebrenica. We
20 were monitoring the area of Gradacac and everything that was under the 2nd
21 Corps, and I don't know whether our colleagues at(redacted) monitored the 3rd
22 Corps or other areas, but we were monitoring the area of Srebrenica during
23 the offensive, the area of Gradacac, Brcko, et cetera.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a short while,
1 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Stojanovic. Yes, go ahead.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I
18 will complete the examination very quickly.
19 Q. If you recall, sir, we finished or we stopped with the question of
20 what you were listening to in mid-July. So my question, and I will end
21 the cross-examination with it, is: How was the actual procedure, who told
22 you what you would be doing, which frequencies you would be listening to,
23 or was it just your sense of the need at that particular moment?
24 A. The superior commander, the unit commander or the platoon
25 commander would -- before we began work at the workstation, would tell us
1 which events were important, which frequencies should be monitored, also
2 when we came to work we would consult with the operator who worked before
3 to find out if he noted down any important conversations, what we should
4 be paying attention to, which frequency was important, and then we would
5 sit at the workstation and begin our work.
6 Q. Can you tell us when you were told to start monitoring the eastern
7 Bosnian area, the Srebrenica region?
8 A. Well, I really couldn't say. The antennas were already directed
9 in that direction at the beginning of those events, so I, as an operator,
10 had to work strictly to monitor and record and transcribe the intercepts
11 into the notebooks. As for the other things, this was in the hands of our
13 Q. And to finish with this question, was just your unit a unit that
14 had its own antenna system, or did each of the units at the northern
15 location have its own antenna system?
16 A. The 21st Division that I worked for had its own antenna system.
17 Each set of equipment had its own antenna. The operators who worked for
18 the 2nd Corps had their own antennas and they monitored certain area or
19 sector which was probably different from the sector that we were
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any
22 further questions but I think perhaps your intervention is necessary. On
23 page 38, line 20, in view of the fact that the unit was mentioned that
24 this witness belonged to.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can -- we can -- we can proceed. All
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In that case, I have no further
3 questions. Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
6 like the witness to be shown Exhibit P2369, this is the notebook 24.
7 Would it be possible to show the witness the original notebook?
8 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, just before we begin, could you tell us if
10 the conversations were -- the intercepts were written down in a
11 chronological order in this notebook?
12 A. No. As for the time of the intercepts, it was not done in a
13 chronological order because I copied conversations from paper on to the
14 notebook, so sometimes it was 9.20, and then 10.00, it wasn't like that.
15 Sometimes the times would not be consequential. So in any case, when the
16 conversation was transcribed, the time was always put in. So if you are
17 thinking of when each conversation occurred, then the time of the
18 conversation was always entered.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... 13, this is the page that
20 bears the number 00804638.
21 Regarding the date that is transcribed on this page of the 15th of
22 July, 1995, were you the one who put this date on?
23 A. No, I did not enter the date, I can tell because this word,
24 Subota, Saturday, this is not my handwriting. This is not what my
25 handwriting looks like. I did not put the date in.
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... saw this notebook again, can
2 you tell us if, since you looked at that notebook again when you came
3 here, could you tell us if there is a date that was transcribed or written
4 down by yourself?
5 A. I would have to look at it to be able to see. Can I look at it?
6 I've looked at the notebook, and I did not put the date in
8 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel needs to wait until the English
9 translation is finished.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... 21, it's P2386 and the number
12 ERN is 00781141?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, my attention has been drawn by the
14 interpreters that you need to wait until the English translation has
15 finished before you put your next question. In fact, we missed your
16 question or part of your question, which you are kindly asked to repeat,
17 if possible. Thank you. At least for the record, because the witness
18 apparently has understood what you said.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. President, thank you.
20 I will repeat the question.
21 Q. Could the witness be shown notebook number 21, the ERN number is
22 00781141, and I need page number 111. It's page number 00781251. It's
23 the page that ends with 1251, and in the e-court system we're talking
24 about P2386, page 111, one eleven. Could the witness be shown the
25 intercept that's at the bottom of the page? Or at the top of the page,
1 under the line, rather. Above the line at the top of the page, that is
2 the portion that we are interested in.
3 Is this a conversation that you transcribed yourself, sir?
4 A. A part of the intercept, yes. The part at the top where it
5 states, "Sladjan Mladic was killed at Ilidza in the morning. Cube, son of
6 Slobodanka." There's nothing else that is urgent. (redacted)
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know if line
9 11 should be redacted. Page 41, line 11.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Prosecution.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Sorry, I'm just locating it on the page.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Just four lines up.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would ask if it's -- I would ask if it could be
14 redacted, please.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think it's safer to redact it. So let's
16 redact lines 9 and 10, please. Or 9 and 10 in one, 10 and 11 in another.
17 I mean it's -- the pagination and line do not tally, lines do not tally.
18 Yes, Madam Fauveau.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Witness, at the very top of the page, if you look at this
21 intercept, you can see the frequency, the channel, and the participants,
22 right? Is it exact to say that the time of the conversation or the
23 intercept is not written down?
24 A. Yes, the time is not noted down. I can see that.
25 Q. Is it exact to say that you were supposed to put down the time
2 A. Yes, but I assume that this part of the conversation follows the
3 previous conversation, and it is in my handwriting, but the signature is
4 different. I don't know why it's underlined here, so it probably came
5 immediately after the conversation recorded at 2008 hours, so that's why I
6 did not put down the time.
7 Q. Can we say that this is a mistake, that the fact that you have
8 omitted to put the time down, that this is a mistake on your part?
9 A. Yes, that is my own mistake. I should have put the time in, even
10 though it followed the previous conversation, the time should have been
11 put in, 2110 or 11, so it's probably my mistake that I did not note down
12 the time, that I omitted it.
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we go into the
14 private session for -- could we go into private session for a couple of
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's go into private session, please.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 6241-6242 redacted. Private session
3 [Open session]
4 MR. JOSSE: You've read the situation perfectly, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 Mr. Haynes.
7 MR. HAYNES: I don't either, and if anybody wants to take any of
8 my time, I'm open to offers.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, do you need some more minutes?
10 MR. OSTOJIC: I don't think so, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
12 Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have a re-examination?
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, I don't have any re-examination.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have any questions for you either, which
15 means that your testimony comes to an end here. Madam Usher now will
16 help you-- escort you and help you with the arrangements for your return
17 back home. On behalf of the Tribunal I wish to thank you for having come
18 over to give evidence, and I wish you a safe journey back home.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So we come to the documents. You have the list.
22 The witness statement will go under seal. It's being admitted. 02383. I
23 see -- first of all, let me see if there are any objections. None.
24 The pseudonym sheet, the same. That will become 02384,
25 Prosecution. Then there are three intercepts which will be marked for
1 identification and kept under seal. And finally the handwritten intercept
2 notebook, PO2386, which will be marked for identification. You have not
3 indicated that you require it under seal.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I was going to ask if the procedure has been to
5 the extent that the notebook itself may contain items that require
6 sealing, if the notebook itself has been -- has been tendered for
7 identification under seal. If that's been the practice, then that is what
8 I would like to do in this particular case, but if not, then I suppose we
9 can proceed that way as well.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Always assume that I don't put unnecessary
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So that will be kept under seal as well.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Next witness. This was Witness PW-136.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: This is Witness number 173, correct, Ms. Soljan?
18 Thank you.
19 MS. SOLJAN: PW-148, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I welcome you to this Tribunal. You are soon going
23 to start giving evidence. Before you do so our rules require that you
24 make a solemn declaration that you will testify the truth. Madam Usher is
25 handing you the text. Please read it out aloud and that will be your
1 solemn undertaking with us.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat, make yourself
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me explain to you briefly. We have granted upon
8 request from the Prosecution some protective measures in your record. The
9 first is the use of a pseudonym, which means an alias instead of your name
10 and surname, and we have also put in place facial and voice distortion. I
11 take it these have been explained to you and that they are to your
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's been explained to me, and
14 I am satisfied.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Now Ms. Soljan, whom you know, will go first. She
16 will be asking you some questions and also reading out a summary of your
17 witness statement of the 21st of January of this year. She will then be
18 followed by cross-examination by the Defence teams. One very important
19 thing that I would like to draw your attention to. We are trying our best
20 to hide your identity, and we need your cooperation there. You are asked
21 questions, you will be asked questions both by the Prosecution and by the
22 Defence. When someone else is speaking to you or talking to you, you will
23 see that there is a red light lit on his or her microphone. Please don't
24 start talking while that light -- red light is still on. Wait until it is
25 switched off and then you can safely speak. Otherwise your voice,
1 especially if it carries, will be captured. Did I make myself clear?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Soljan, you go first.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-148
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Examination by Ms. Soljan:
7 Q. Good morning, witness?
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. If I could please have the usher's assistance in providing the
10 witness with what has been marked for identification as P02388.
11 Now, Witness, if you could please take a look at this piece of
12 paper and just tell us whether your name is on it without saying that name
13 out loud.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, do you recall providing information to
16 the Office of the Prosecutor on Sunday, the 21st of January, this year?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And was the statement you gave at that time truthful?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you also had an opportunity to read through the statement
21 before having come to testify here today?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And are you satisfied that the statement that you read is true,
24 correct and accurate?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, I will go ahead and read a short summary of
2 that statement.
3 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, if you don't mind just the first
4 sentence, I would like to read it in private session.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means. Let's go back to private session for
6 a short while.
7 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have questions of the witness.
8 MS. SOLJAN: I wanted to say that for the record PO2387 and, I
9 only have very few questions for the witness.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Thank you.
11 MS. SOLJAN:
12 Q. Sir, did you have an opportunity to review two handwritten copies
13 of intercepts in a tabbed blue binder this morning and yesterday with
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did you identify both of those intercepts as your original
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Sir, did you also have the opportunity to review those same
20 intercepts in the original notebook they were taken in?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you confirm that they were in your own handwriting?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So, sir, my final question for you is, can you confirm, as you sit
25 before the Trial Chamber today, that you have listened to, recorded and
1 transcribed these two intercepts?
2 A. Yes, I can.
3 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
4 MS. SOLJAN: I have no more questions, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Ms. Soljan.
6 Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. In your statement given to the OTP you said, among other things,
12 that the unit where you served numbered 10 to 12 men?
13 A. To the best of my recollection.
14 Q. You also said you had worked in two shifts. Does that mean that
15 that unit of 10 to 12 soldiers, as you remember, was divided into two
16 parts and worked in shifts?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. In addition to that, you had daily shifts as well; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell me, how many operators worked at the same time in daily
23 A. Two operators.
24 Q. Thank you. And how many sets of equipment did you have?
25 A. Two sets.
1 Q. Can you describe and give us more detail about the set of
2 equipment you worked with?
3 A. That set had two or three frequencies that were stored in memory.
4 We just scanned those frequencies at random and looked for something
6 Q. In the statement you gave to the Prosecution a couple of days ago
7 you said that you could not remember very well, but it seems to you that
8 you were using a set of equipment that scanned only one frequency?
9 A. I'm telling you approximately, I'm -- I emphasised I did not
10 remember for sure.
11 Q. Thank you. You said that intercepts were recorded on one tape; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Does that mean that there was only one tape recorder?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Do you know what would happen to an intercept after it was
17 recorded and transcribed by you in a copy book?
18 A. I am not -- I don't know.
19 Q. Just one more question. You also said that you had to write down
20 the date, the time, and frequency at the beginning of every intercept, as
21 well as the names of speakers if you knew them; is that correct?
22 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
23 Q. Can you remember who gave you orders to proceed in that way?
24 A. The people, the senior soldiers with whom I worked taught me to do
25 it that way. It was the practice I just learned from them.
1 Q. In other words, they told you to use those elements?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
5 Mr. Meek or Mr. Ostojic.
6 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, we have no questions of this witness.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.
8 For the record, Mr. Bourgon is now in the courtroom.
9 Ms. Nikolic.
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have no
11 questions of this witness.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
13 Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Same here, Your Honour. No
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1294B and
18 1294A for the English version.
19 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, do you see the transcript of 1305? Isn't it
21 an intercept which you transcribed yourself?
22 A. Yes, correct.
23 Q. The first sentence of this intercept is the representation of a
24 certain Colonel Cerovic. Colonel Cerovic introduces himself. True?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is it true that the second person is not heard during the whole
2 conversation, the whole intercept?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And Colonel Cerovic does not mention the name of the other person;
5 isn't it true?
6 A. I can't remember.
7 Q. It's a very short conversation, I would be very grateful if you
8 could read it quickly.
9 A. I've read it.
10 Q. Is it true that you didn't find anything in this conversation
11 giving the name of General Krstic? You didn't find the name of
12 General Krstic in this intercept?
13 A. I can't remember now. It was a long time ago.
14 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you to remember. In the intercept you can see
15 in front of you, you can't read the name of General Krstic, can you?
16 Isn't it true?
17 A. The way it is written here, no.
18 Q. How were you able to establish that the person in question with
19 whom Colonel Cerovic is talking to was General Krstic, since this name has
20 not been pronounced in this intercept and since, anyway, you cannot hear
21 the other person?
22 A. I'm telling you I can't be sure now, and I can't remember anything
23 that would indicate that, that would serve as an indication.
24 Q. Is it possible therefore that the second person in this intercept
25 could not be General Krstic?
1 A. I don't know with certainty.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no other question to ask.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.
5 Mr. Josse or Mr. Krgovic.
6 MR. JOSSE: No, thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes or Mr. Sarapa.
8 MR. HAYNES: No. I thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Soljan, do you have a re-examination?
10 MS. SOLJAN: Just a quick redirect, Your Honours.
11 Re-examination by Ms. Soljan:
12 Q. Sir, isn't it true that your practise was only to transcribe what
13 you heard?
14 MR. JOSSE: Leading question.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, in direct you are in the same position as you
16 are in examination-in-chief. So practice has been ones there is an
17 objection, if it is indeed a direct question, we don't allow it. So you
18 will rephrase your question, please.
19 MS. SOLJAN: Apologies, Your Honour, I will do so.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. I mean you ...
21 MS. SOLJAN:
22 Q. Could you briefly describe the practice of how you transcribed
23 intercepts for us, please?
24 MR. MEEK: Judge, I object. That is beyond the scope of
1 JUDGE AGIUS: It is perfectly okay. It follows from -- from the
2 general train of questions we've had on the few cross-examinations.
3 Go ahead.
4 Or rather, Witness, please do answer the question.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you repeat it, please?
6 MS. SOLJAN:
7 Q. Of course, sir. Could you briefly describe for us the practice of
8 how you transcribed intercepts?
9 A. Listening to conversations, I recorded them on tape and then
10 transcribed in a copy book.
11 Q. Did you write -- so if you heard a name, did you write it down?
12 A. Yes, yes. We immediately wrote down names and the more important
13 events involved so as to be able to remember them better later.
14 Q. Thank you, sir; no more questions.
15 MS. SOLJAN: No more questions, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Soljan. We don't have questions for
17 you, which means that your testimony ends here. On behalf of the
18 Tribunal, I wish to thank you for having come over to give evidence. You
19 will receive assistance to facilitate your return back home at the
20 earliest. And we wish you all a safe journey back home.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, may I draw your attention, please, counsel, to
24 a confidential Prosecution motion filed on -- filed recently for leave to
25 amend the witness list by adding one more intercept operator at -- as 92
1 ter witness and for protective measures. But you get it up; I will be
2 come back to you in a moment on this. In the meantime we have these
3 documents related to this last witness, PW-148 to deal with. Any
4 objections as to the admission of the proposed documents? I hear none.
5 The witness statement will become PO2387, and it will remain under
6 seal, the pseudonym sheet also to be kept under seal will be PO2388, and
7 then the two intercepts one that is 65 ter numbers 1298, 1294 in their
8 respective A and B versions will be marked for identification. The one of
9 the 21st of July, 1294 A and B will be kept under seal, and the
10 handwritten intercept notebook number 24 PO2369, will also be kept under
11 seal and for the time being marked for identification purposes. And that
12 disposes of PW-148.
13 Now, there is this Prosecution motion which refers to a witness
14 which, according to the very volatile schedule that has -- has been
15 forthcoming, is scheduled to testify the day after tomorrow, on Thursday.
16 Correct me if I am wrong, Mr. McCloskey, because I am a little hesitant, a
17 little bit hesitant in making such affirmations as things are going.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I'm even more hesitant, Mr. President.
19 But yes, that person is here and the -- or is about to be here and so
20 that schedule looks like it's -- it is happening. Those next few, there's
21 some other issues related to scheduling I can discuss though when you're
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Does any one of the Defence teams wish to address
24 the Chamber on -- on this motion? As you imagine, or as you would have
25 gathered, there is no point in even trying to apply the usual time limits
1 allowed by the rules for responses, et cetera, because inherently it is a
2 matter of urgency and we need to dispose of it before the day after
3 tomorrow. May I ask you a question, Mr. McCloskey, because I don't know
4 more than I am going to say. You propose this person as a 92 ter witness.
5 You would be therefore relying on what, previous testimony, statement, a
6 witness statement?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, if -- what -- it would likely be a very
8 short statement. We -- because of the problem that Mr. Meek addressed
9 yesterday, which we understand --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I'm raising the matter.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: We changed our normal policy and we've actually
12 done interviewed over the phone for these sensitive witnesses to try to
13 get something. As you know, we are bringing these witnesses on in
14 response to a Court order, so there was a time -- a time issue, and so we
15 were planning on seeing them when they were here for a statement. That
16 obviously has -- hasn't worked out because they would only be brought here
17 a day or two before they testify, so we're trying to do telephone
18 interviews. Whether we have been able to get this person by phone and get
19 the process going, I don't know. We can also have a very short direct of
20 about, you know, five questions and -- without any statement, frankly,
21 because we all know what the answer to the questions are. But we'll try
22 to -- we will want to give the basics to them, to see if there is no
23 training or to see if there is any other issue that they are alerted to.
24 But we will try to contact this person by phone - I think we already
25 have - and try to get a statement as soon as possible.
1 In fact, the -- based on the estimates of today, we -- we're about
2 two to three hours off on the Defence estimates, it's been so quickly. So
3 this is our last witness for today. Mr. Nicholls has been talking to a
4 witness this morning, and I -- and as I imagine their estimates might have
5 been off, I said try to get this person ready for this afternoon. The
6 person has gone home to change and can be back in about 20 minutes and --
7 and the statement should be out in part or about to be out. And I -- I
8 apologise for this. You -- as you know, we have accelerated quickly and
9 Defence has -- their estimates -- we recognise their estimates were -- you
10 know, lawyers trying to make time estimates are -- it is a difficult
11 process. We recognise that they were probably conservative or whatever
12 the opposite of that was, but -- and that brings up another issue.
13 But I think if we can take a half an hour break, we should be able
14 to have a witness, if people are ready to do it. Otherwise we can start
15 with that witness in the morning.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I will very quickly consult my colleagues.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before you make your
20 decision on the request of my learned friend regarding witness 150, I have
21 to address you. In the brief summary of this witness's testimony, my
22 client's name is mentioned. Therefore, I would really appreciate it if
23 this witness could start tomorrow so that we could at least read the
24 statement that my learned friend promises to deliver to us within the next
25 half hour so that we can at least see what it is about in my visit to the
1 detention unit or by telephone.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which witness are we -- are we talking about now?
3 Which one? Yeah, but I want to know who the next one is, because the
4 last one I have in my notes was this one. So I don't have an indication
5 of who the next one is. Have you -- yeah, if you can give me the witness
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I can give it to
8 you. 175, protected witness 150. His number is 173.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, 173 is the one we finished.
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, 175. 175.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can go into private session, I can say his
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go into private session for a short
15 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a 30-minute break. You will bring over
21 this witness and we'll start hearing his evidence, if it is necessary even
22 dispose of the witness statement and examine him in chief viva voce then
23 we can do that. He would have been here tomorrow in any case, so we
24 will -- at the end of the day reserve cross-examination for Madam Nikolic
25 until tomorrow. In the meantime we will go through the whole turn, finish
1 examination-in-chief and as many cross-examinations as we can. You will
2 have the opportunity to consult with your client, and then cross-examine
3 him tomorrow. I think that's fair enough for everyone.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, just one other item.
6 I've had a chance to briefly discuss with counsel. As you know, when we
7 saw this acceleration, we got on the phone and we've been trying to fill
8 the gap. One of the witnesses -- and if we could go into private
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hmm.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 6261-6264 redacted. Private session
8 [Open session]
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a 30-minute break as promised.
11 Ms. Nikolic can put her mind at rest that she will cross-examine the next
12 witness tomorrow. In the meantime Mr. McCloskey has been referring to
13 this live crime-based witness who we could start hearing possibly tomorrow
14 and who would possibly occupy our time for the rest of the week, as I --
15 as I read, Mr. McCloskey, although not necessarily so. Do you wish to
16 make any submissions in relation to this witness? I notice Mr. Lazarevic
17 has made it quickly --
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I believe we will state our
19 position after the break, where we have time to consult our clients and
20 other Defences.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to draw
23 your attention to the following fact: It's becoming a habit that for the
24 witnesses coming after the break we still don't have the version in
25 English and we only received the B/C/S version half an hour ago. We were
1 not able to prepare adequately.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one? I take -- will you thresh it out with
3 the Prosecution and then -- you know that the Trial Chamber tries to
4 secure as much possible your rights and we will see if the problem still
5 persists after the break, and that we will deal with it after the break.
6 Mr. Ostojic, you were -- okay.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I think we will just discuss
8 it among ourselves and address the Court this afternoon.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will have a 30-minute break starting now.
10 Thank you.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So, I take it no one wishes to address the Chamber
15 before we start with this witness.
16 Yeah, Mr. Lazarevic.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, Your Honour, I was hoping to address the
18 Trial Chamber regarding the issues that were raised before the break, but
19 I don't know whether it's proper to do it while the witness is in the
20 courtroom. I have no problem, but ...
21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I sent Madam Usher to inquire whether
22 you wish to make any statements. But anyway, let's start with the witness
23 and finish him with the caveat that I mentioned earlier.
24 Good afternoon, to you, sir. Witness, good afternoon to you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. I see that you
2 already have the text of the solemn declaration that is required from you.
3 Please read it out aloud and that you will be your undertaking with this
4 Tribunal that you will testify the truth. Go ahead.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. Please take a seat and make
8 yourself comfortable. We have put in place -- yeah, Mr. Meek.
9 MR. MEEK: I apologise, Your Honour, I just wanted to for the
10 record, bring to the Trial Chamber's attention that, as happened
11 yesterday, the OTP laid on our desk the B/C/S transcript of the witness
12 statement which I was able to give to my client just as they were brought
13 back in, and I therefore would reserve any cross-examination until
14 tomorrow, with your permission.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Meek.
16 Upon the request from the Prosecution we have granted you some
17 protective measures, namely that you will testify under a pseudonym
18 instead of your usual name and surname, and that visual and voice
19 distortion have been put in place for you. I trust that these have
20 already been explained to you and that this arrangement is to your
21 satisfaction. If you could kindly confirm that, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So the way we are going to proceed is Mr. Nicholls
24 who you have met already will now put some questions to you and will also
25 address you in relation to your witness statement. And then we will have
1 some cross-examinations today, others to follow tomorrow morning.
2 Mr. Nicholls.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. Just before I begin, I
4 would of course not object if Mr. Meek or any counsel want a few minutes
5 now to consult with their clients. The statement, as you can see, is
6 the -- the substance of it is about one page and five lines. So if they
7 want that time now, there is obviously no objection from me.
8 You don't have the statement, sorry. But it is one page and a
9 couple of lines, so if it would be better for their clients to read that
10 in 10 minutes, then we could do that.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: What I suggest we do is the following, because 10
12 minutes are precious. Mr. Beara has the -- the statement, so he can start
13 reading it. When we have finished with your examination-in-chief, make we
14 can start with other cross-examinations and we will see what the situation
15 will be at that time. Mr. Meek will have an opportunity to go near --
16 approach Mr. Beara and confirm with him for any instructions and then we
17 can proceed accordingly. But I don't think it's the case of having
18 another 10-minute break.
19 Yes, go ahead, Mr. Nicholls.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-150
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
24 Q. First, if I could pass the witness a pseudonym sheet, which is
1 Now, Witness, as you know, we've given you a number, so if you
2 could read that sheet of paper silently to yourself and confirm to the
3 Court that your name is written on that piece of paper.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. If that could be shown to my colleagues.
6 Now, sir, is it correct that you and I met for the first time this
7 morning and that you gave us a written statement?
8 A. That is correct, yes.
9 Q. Was that statement then read back to you in your own language?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you sign the statement after it had been read back to you?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Do you attest that the statement is true and accurate?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And can you also attest that if you were asked the same questions
16 now in the courtroom your answers would be the same as they were in the
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If we could go into private session, I will read a very brief
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's do that.
22 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: In the offices of the OTP this morning the witness
20 reviewed a binder of eight intercepts. Copies of handwritten intercepts
21 were in this binder, and he recognised seven out of the eight as being
22 his. He recognised that the intercept at tab 3, ERN 0078-1483 through
23 0078-1484, as not in his handwriting, was not one of his intercepts.
24 The witness -- and that's 65 ter number 1316, excuse me.
25 The witness also reviewed the printouts which corresponded to the
1 seven handwritten intercepts which he had transcribed, and he reviewed the
2 original notebooks and also recognised his handwriting for those same
3 seven intercepts in the notebook and confirmed that he had indeed recorded
4 and transcribed those intercepts.
5 That's the end of my summary.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have questions for the witness?
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Just -- just one, your answer -- Your Honour.
8 Q. Witness, was my summary correct from your recollection of your
9 statement this morning?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: The statement will be PO2389 under seal when we move
13 to tender it.
14 Thank you, I have no further questions at this time.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 Mr. Zivanovic.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir. You said that you had the
20 opportunity today, before signing your statement, to hear it back. It was
21 read back to you in your own language; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You didn't have the opportunity to read it for yourself, did
25 A. No.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me, you said amongst other things
2 that for the first two months of your work during this facility that we
3 mentioned - I'm not going to mention its name - you worked on jamming the
4 communications of the army of Republika Srpska; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell me other than yourself how many of your colleagues
7 worked on the same job in that period?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. Is it possible that it was just you carrying out this work?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Is it true if I said that several of you were doing the same kind
12 of work, but you are not able to tell us exactly how many of your
14 A. Yes, that is correct. I can't tell you the exact number now.
15 Q. Thank you. Two months after that you were transferred to a
16 different post, different duties. And did your colleagues remain at the
17 same work that they did up until you were transferred?
18 A. I don't remember.
19 Q. In your statement you said that you were not involved in any
20 typing, encryption, and dispatch of the intercepts that you recorded, that
21 other people did those jobs. Can you tell me how many people?
22 A. I couldn't tell you.
23 Q. Do you remember how many of you there were in that unit or section
24 that intercepted conversations in that installation where you worked?
25 A. I don't know the exact number.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us on what kind of equipment did you
2 work? And I mean you personally.
3 A. I have it all written down. I can't tell you off the cuff.
4 Q. When you say you have it in writing, do you mean your own personal
5 documentation, or maybe you believe it is on some official file?
6 A. It's in -- it's an official file; I don't have it with me.
7 Q. Can you tell us roughly how long you worked with that piece of
8 equipment you had?
9 A. I could not give you a specific time-frame.
10 Q. You had opportunity today, or maybe one of the previous days, to
11 review the copy books shown you by the Prosecution. Can you tell me
12 whether those copy books, that you kept yourself all alone, or they were
13 used jointly by different operators?
14 A. It's not the case that everybody had their own copy book, no.
15 Q. Can you tell me how many operators used one and the same copy
17 A. No, I couldn't tell you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, where we see "copy book," it's
19 notebook, so that we couldn't confuse the two as if they were the same
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can you tell me if these are the copy books or notebooks shown you
23 by the Prosecution?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell me, were they official notebooks?
1 A. I don't understand the question.
2 Q. Did you receive those notebooks from the command of your unit or
3 did you buy them yourselves?
4 A. We got them from the command.
5 Q. Was it obvious that the notebook was received from the command?
6 Was it distinguishable as such?
7 A. Well, they were brought to us, to that location.
8 Q. When you say they were brought to you, can you tell me by whom?
9 A. Well, the people who were in charge of those things, whose job it
11 Q. Those were not the same people who worked with you on the same
13 A. No.
14 Q. Can you remember if more than one notebook was filled during a
15 particular time period?
16 A. I don't understand the question.
17 Q. While you were working on your shift and while you were listening
18 to and recording intercepts, was there only one notebook going around or
19 were several of them kept at the same time?
20 A. There were several of them.
21 Q. Were you duty-bound to enter dates into the notebooks?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you record the date every time when entering a conversation
24 as recorded on the tape?
25 A. I believe so.
1 Q. When you say, "I believe so," I believe it was entered, do you
2 mean to say that possibly someone else would enter the date if you failed
4 A. I don't remember now.
5 Q. You said in your statement that you remained at that location
6 doing that job until September or October 1995. Can you tell me if you
7 have that written down in your military service book? I mean the date,
8 the exact date when you left that facility?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Is there any date entered in your military service book for your
11 final departure from the service?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you remember that date?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Was it after September 1995?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
20 Ms. Nikolic or Mr. Bourgon.
21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honour, that in view
22 of certain changes --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You will reserve it?
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] -- there exists, compared to the
25 summary, I think we could provide that before the end of the day, yeah.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. Let's move on to the Borovcanin
2 Defence. In the meantime, Mr. Meek, I suggest, having heard now
3 Ms. Nikolic, that you try to approach your client to see whether he has
4 any instructions to give. When I say you, it's Mr. Ostojic or your
5 colleague who speaks the language.
6 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I'd like to ask you only a couple of
9 questions regarding your method of work. Did it occur that you identified
10 participants in a conversation without their identifying themselves?
11 A. Sometimes I could identify them by voice.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, we have absolutely no problem with
15 Mr. Beara leaving the courtroom to give instructions to your colleagues.
16 At the same time, we need his consent to proceed in his absence. All
17 right. I take it that reading -- reading through your lips in
18 Serbo-Croat, that you have given your consent.
19 THE ACCUSED BEARA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sorry for the interruption, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 Please go ahead.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Sir, can you tell us, if you did not identify the speakers by
24 voice how else could you identify them?
25 A. Well, according to the style of speech. I'm talking about cases
1 when we didn't hear their names said, spoken.
2 Q. Does that mean that you personally were able to identify some of
3 the participants by their style of speech?
4 A. Well, if those speakers had had numerous conversations, then
6 Q. When you would identify such a speaker, would you note down, among
7 other things, that you had identified the speaker by voice or his
8 characteristics of speech?
9 A. If we were not sure we would write a sign to make that obvious.
10 Q. Can you tell me what sign you used to denote that you were not
11 certain about the identity of the speakers?
12 A. Maybe a question mark or maybe just the initial.
13 Q. Did you write in the transcripts only the things that you could
14 hear clearly or also the things that you thought you heard?
15 A. For the most part we wrote down what we heard.
16 Q. When you say "for the most part," does that imply there were
17 situations when you wrote down things you thought you'd heard or you
19 A. We would write down things like "audibility poor," "interference,"
20 "cannot make out," et cetera.
21 Q. Did it ever happen that you wrote down the name of a speaker
22 without being certain of his identity?
23 A. No.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Can we now see in e-court please Prosecution Exhibit P01352D,
2 sorry. And for those of us who follow it here it's tab 5, an intercept
3 that we received from the OTP attached to the set of documents for this
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 0320-4832.
7 Sorry, PO1341, 01341.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I just wanted to assure the witness -
10 I hadn't done so before court - this is not being broadcast, that these
11 documents, people outside the courtroom cannot see, just to put his mind
12 at rest.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for pointing that out, Mr. Nicholls.
14 And the witness can put his mind at rest that it isn't.
15 Is that the page you had in mind, Mr. Stojanovic?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. If we could
17 just move a page up, because we need to see the heading or the
19 MR. NICHOLLS: The previous page.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the previous page. Thank
21 you. That's it.
22 Q. Could you please look at it? Do you see this passage where they
23 mention azimuth frequency, the hour is 11:25, the participants -- can you
24 see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Let us read it together. When it says "participants," we see
2 "Rajko -- Colonel Cerovic," and in brackets "assumed" or "assumption."
3 Can you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell me what could that mean, that the participant in that
6 conversation was Colonel Cerovic, in brackets "assumption" or "assumed"?
7 A. The conversation was difficult to hear and it had been already
8 recorded, so it is written that it -- we assume it was Colonel Cerovic.
9 Q. Would this change your previous answer when you said that you
10 never wrote down the names of participants unless you were sure?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry to object, but that is not a fair
13 characterisation. The previous answer was if he wasn't sure it would be
14 noted in some fashion, not that he never wrote down a name if -- as it was
15 put to him.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: You are correct, but I think the witness can answer
17 the question.
18 The answer very simply -- the question very simply put, if I could
19 phrase it a little differently is, looking at this intercept here or this
20 transcript why did you put down the name of Cerovic in this case?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I was not alone, there were
22 other colleagues together with me and we all listened to those
23 conversations together, maybe one of the colleagues came to listen to the
24 conversation together with us and maybe he told us that he was -- this was
25 the man. It could be that.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I would like to take the witness again to one of his previous
3 answers. On page 79, lines 6, 7 and 8, to my question, "Did it ever occur
4 that you wrote down the name of a participant in a conversation without
5 being sure of his identity?", you answered, "No."
6 My question to you now, after this explanation you gave, would be
7 as follows: Did it ever occur that you wrote down the name of a
8 participant in a conversation without being sure of his name?
9 A. I've told you already that several colleagues listened and
10 re-listened to these intercepts and we had more than one conversation
11 involving a particular person, so based on that we probably concluded it
12 was Colonel Cerovic.
13 Q. So you are telling us today that you are not certain?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, he is not saying that. I don't think he's ever
15 said that. Let me take over for a short while.
16 Witness, you have in the line below where we have the azimuth and
17 the frequency, Pukovnik Cerovic, and then in brackets, "[pretpostavka]."
18 Based on what you have testified earlier, namely that if you were not sure
19 you wouldn't put down the name of the interlocutor, what are we to
20 conclude seeing those names or those -- those words in this particular
21 transcript of -- of the intercept? What should the Trial Chamber and
22 everyone else who is listening conclude from that? That you were sure or
23 that you were not sure?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not sure, but I just told you
25 my colleagues listened to it as well, and we arrived at that conclusion.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: That answers your question very clearly,
2 Mr. Stojanovic, and we can move to the next, please.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for this assistance.
4 Q. To conclude let us see in e-court PO1341B. That is the intercept
5 concerned in B/H/S [as interpreted]. Sir, do you see this intercept?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is that your handwriting, did you write that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you agree with me that it is written there in your hand,
10 U-c-x, and above that "Rajko," and then in brackets "[re: module]." And
11 after that "p-u-k," meaning Colonel, Cerovic. Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. After the word Colonel Cerovic, you did not write supposedly, or
14 assumed, did you?
15 A. Well, it says here "according to modulation."
16 Q. All right. Then I would ask you this: Behind the words Colonel
17 Cerovic is the word "assumption" written in your hand?
18 A. No, not here.
19 Q. Does that mean that when you were listening to that conversation
20 and transcribing it you were certain that one of the speakers was
21 Colonel Cerovic?
22 A. I have already answered that question. According to voice
23 modulation we assumed it was Colonel Cerovic.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you needn't labour any further on this
25 because it has been cleared by the witness. This was a team effort. As
1 far as he is concerned, he wasn't sure, but others were. And the
2 conclusion that it was Cerovic was because of the modulation which meant
3 something to some -- to one member of the team at least. So I don't think
4 we need to labour it any further.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if this is clear,
6 then we have no further questions. And we conclude here. Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
8 Madam Fauveau.
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Notebook 104, is it indeed -- could the witness
12 be shown P2244, 2244. Could you please show page 1895, the four last
13 digits. And in e-court it's page 24.
14 Sir, have you written as the date 16 July 95, did you write that
16 A. No.
17 Q. Could you now go to page finishing with two digits, 97? Could you
18 show the top of the page? That's page 26. This is indeed the end of the
19 intercept which started under 16 July 1995, isn't it?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And you see the intercept which starts just under that, frequency
22 is indicated, the channel?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. What's the problem, Mr. Nicholls.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: There is no problem, I just sensed that the witness
25 had a problem with the screen and the pages, but the book is right next to
1 him, I just wanted him to know he can look at the book, if he needs to.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, look at the book and look at the last two or
3 three pages that you looked at previously and just confirm again that
4 those three pages are indeed a transcript of the intercept which --
5 although you didn't date it yourself, is dated 16th of July, 1995. That
6 there are no other transcripts in between, in other words. Look at the
7 notebook itself.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what was the question to me?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was the following: A couple of minutes
10 ago Madam Fauveau referred you to two pages before where you were asked
11 whether you had put down the date 16.7.95 yourself, and you said no. Now,
12 starting from that page until you come -- until you come to the page which
13 ends at the top with the last four digits 1897. "Are we still dealing
14 with the same transcript, with the same intercept of 16.7.95, or is there
15 any other transcript that intervened in the meantime?"
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not sure whether the date
17 refers to the top or the bottom part of the page.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: To the top part of the page. Madam Usher, can you
19 help him, please? Start with the page where you have 16.07.95 written,
20 handwritten there. And then take him to page 1897, to the first part of
21 that page before we have another intercept. In those pages that you have
22 seen, do we only have that intercept of 16.07.95, or do we also have other
23 intercepts before we come to the next one?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have this intercept of 1948 hours;
25 that's my intercept. The rest are not mine. I didn't take them -- tape
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I leave him in your hands, Ms. Fauveau, and I
3 suggest that you go straight to the next intercept and ask him why it's
4 109 and what happened in the meantime, because I suppose that's where you
5 were heading.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Sir, Witness, in the next intercept, the frequency is indicated as
8 well as the channel, and numbers 1.09, which would certainly be the 1st
9 September. Could you please explain how after 16 July there is an
10 intercept of the 1st of September?
11 A. I couldn't answer that.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no
13 other question to ask.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.
15 MR. JOSSE: Nothing, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes.
17 MR. HAYNES: Yes, one or two.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
20 Q. Witness, in July of 1995 would you have said that relative to your
21 colleagues you were an inexperienced intercept operator?
22 A. Well, no, you couldn't say that, no.
23 Q. One question in private session, please.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
25 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 MR. HAYNES:
11 Q. Was it a regular event for you to consult colleagues as to the
12 voices you were hearing to help with identification?
13 A. Just in case something couldn't be heard well or if there was some
14 interference or something.
15 Q. Moving on from that, were you given orders as to what frequencies
16 you should listen to on any particular day or in any particular period?
17 A. There was that too.
18 Q. And a slightly different question. Were you given orders as to
19 what particular subjects you should be listening out for?
20 A. There were no specific or explicit subjects, no.
21 Q. And lastly, one technical question. Was the equipment you had
22 capable of monitoring a frequency of 144 megahertz or thereabouts?
23 A. I don't remember that now.
24 Q. I'm not surprised, but anyway. Can we move on then to a couple of
25 specific intercepts. As you've already told us, in some conversations
1 that you listened to it wasn't necessary for you to have to recognise the
2 voices because the people who were speaking told you who they were. That's
3 correct, isn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It's a long time ago now, but can you help me as to this: Around
6 about the 26th of July were you interested in the movement of VRS troops
7 in the Zepa area?
8 A. I really couldn't answer that now.
9 Q. Okay. Well, I'm going to have you shown a document to see if it
10 helps you remember.
11 MR. HAYNES: Could P1353B be put on e-court, and for those of us
12 who have it in hard copy, that's behind tab 7 in our binders. We will
13 need to go down to the bottom of that page, and in due course we'll have
14 to go over the page.
15 Q. Witness, can you see the -- the date there, the 26th of July of
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would you read that page down to the bottom of the page and then
19 go over the page, please.
20 A. Just at the bottom of the page?
21 Q. No, I want you to read the bottom of the page and then the next
23 A. There is the frequency, 255.950, then 8.07, AR3000, participants,
24 Major Jevdevic and Vinko.
25 Q. That's my fault. I didn't mean for you to read it out loud, just
1 read it to remind yourself what you wrote. So read it to the bottom of
2 the page and then over the following page, would you?
3 A. To read it to myself silently?
4 Q. Yes, please. And then I'll ask you some questions. Feel free to
5 tell me when you've finished.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, does he have to read the whole page?
7 MR. HAYNES: No, not really. I will put the questions to him and
8 if he needs to look at anything further, he can do.
9 Q. Now, this is one of those occasions, isn't it, where the -- the
10 identity of the speakers comes from what they said during the course of
11 the conversation?
12 A. Yes, we saw already at the beginning who the people were.
13 Q. And can I take it these were not voices that you recognised?
14 A. They introduced themselves here.
15 Q. Well, I -- it really isn't important, but if they hadn't
16 introduced themselves, I am suggesting to you that you wouldn't have known
17 who they were from their voices.
18 A. Probably when I -- if I heard them several times over I would be
19 able to recognise them by their voices.
20 Q. Well, I'm going to move on. It's not important.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone not activated] Either today or tomorrow,
22 because I wouldn't like it stay longer than the scheduled time, because of
23 the other Chamber.
24 MR. HAYNES: I've got three or four more questions. I can
25 conclude them tomorrow, if you wish. This witness has to come back
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's better because we overstayed yesterday
3 and I wouldn't like to do it again today.
4 So we stand adjourned until tomorrow.
5 Witness, it is important between now and tomorrow you do not talk
6 to anyone on the subject matter that you are testifying about. Stay away
7 with other -- from other witnesses or members of the Prosecution or anyone
8 else for that matter. I thank you. Good afternoon to everyone.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of
11 January, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.