1 Thursday, 8 February 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could you
6 call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. All the accused are here. All
10 the Defence teams are here in full. Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey.
11 I understand - this is the reason we are starting a bit late, we
12 usually don't do that - I understand there is a logistic problem in the
13 sense that the witness is stuck in traffic. In the meantime we thought of
14 starting just the same, and maybe see if there are any preliminaries you
15 would like to raise.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, yes, that's the information I have.
17 We had the -- the witness after this was scheduled to be picked up at
18 9.30 -- excuse me, 9.15, so that witness should be coming in any second.
19 It would get us out of order, but -- well, I think Madam Registrar has the
20 latest on that. So we could -- we could go out of order and get started
21 right away.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But still on the logistic level, what
23 about the return travel arrangements for the witness that we are waiting
24 for? Would that disrupt the travel arrangements, postponing his testimony
25 to later, possibly not finishing with it today?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: My understanding is no.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I just want to make sure that that's
3 okay with everybody.
4 Would the suggestion that Mr. McCloskey is making go down well
5 with the Defence teams? Are there any objections from any one of you? I
6 hear none. So we can proceed along those lines.
7 Mr. McCloskey, yesterday you filed a Prosecution motion requesting
8 protective measures for Witness 157 with an ex parte annex. When do you
9 propose to produce this -- this witness?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would have to --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, let's go into private session. Thank you.
12 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness, the second witness is here, but he was
15 taken by surprise, being told that he is going to testify immediately, and
16 so he is being spoken to by the Victims and Witnesses to make him feel
17 somewhat relaxed. But he is here and we can start with his testimony
19 Yes, Mr. McCloskey. Further problems?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, nothing significant. Apparently the witness
21 beat the interpreter here, and so -- and is a bit nervous and would like
22 to know what's going on. So we're just waiting for the interpreter so we
23 can tell him. But it should just be a moment.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
25 Yes, Mr. Josse.
1 MR. JOSSE: Whilst we are waiting, it's the registrar's intention
2 through Your Honour that Mr. Krgovic needs some technical assistance,
3 please, with his computer.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Usher, or Madam Registrar. Thank you.
5 Do you have any problems, I'm referring to the accused, with
6 your -- with your computer set-up? Seems Mr. Krgovic only.
7 The United Kingdom and the United States are divided by the same
8 language, but the way we -- we have it, page 3, line 21, I don't want any
9 misunderstandings. I mean no one should take it as meaning that some
10 violence has taken place, basically means that he has arrived before the
11 interpreter has. But for the record, I want to make sure that we haven't
12 had any unfortunate -- yes, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we are in fine shape. Mr. Vanderpuye
14 didn't look too good, but I think everyone's fine.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose someone from the Victims and Witnesses
16 Unit speaks his language.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's who we were counting on. Apparently they
18 dropped him and -- and he was by himself when found by Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 And that's very unusual. I know they must be running around like crazy
20 this morning. So...
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay. All right. And again, being dropped is
22 to be taken metaphorically and not literally. Figuratively speaking.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm slipping backwards in my diction, but
24 hopefully by 9.30 I won't be saying anything anymore.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we check again, please. Again I apologise to.
1 Again, I apologise to everyone for this. We are trying to do our
3 For the record, Mr. Vanderpuye has entered the courtroom.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is Witness number 156.
6 I just want a confirmation that this is Witness 156, isn't he?
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: He is, Mr. President. Good morning. Good
8 morning, Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So he's got a pseudonym and face -- facial
10 distortion only; is that correct?
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: That is correct.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... earlier than you
15 expected. I welcome you to this Tribunal. This is the Popovic et al
16 case, and you are one of the Prosecution witnesses. I apologise to you
17 for bringing you earlier than expected and starting your evidence earlier
18 than expected, but we had a problem this morning with the previous
19 witness, so in order not to waste time or lose time, we decided that since
20 you were coming here in any case, we start with your testimony. I am sure
21 that I have your full understanding. Okay. Thank you.
22 So good morning to you. You are about to start giving evidence.
23 Mr. Vanderpuye will be examining you in chief. Before you do so, however,
24 our rules require that you make a solemn declaration that you will be
25 testifying the truth. This is being handed to you. Please stand up, read
1 it out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us that will
2 be speaking the truth.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-156
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable.
8 We have made some arrangements to protect your identity, that is your name
9 will not be used, we will use a pseudonym, and also your face will be
10 distorted, we have facial distortion. In other words, I think this has
11 been explained to you. I just want to make sure that this arrangement is
12 to your satisfaction.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye, he is all yours. How long do you
15 expect your direct to last?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I expect it will last about an
17 hour and a half.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
19 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
20 Q. Thank you. Madam Usher, may I have the pseudonym sheet, please,
21 shown to the witness. It's P02434 for the record.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, before you proceed, Mr. McCloskey, I
23 think that -- or rather the registrar, I don't think I put the
24 responsibility on you. Madam Registrar, I think we will require an
25 explanation from whoever is responsible for the transportation of the
1 witness as to what happened. We just want to make sure that what happened
2 was justified and not the result of some negligence.
3 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I -- I have those answers and I can give them to
5 you at appropriate --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Not right now. Okay. Thank you.
7 Mr. Vanderpuye.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
9 Honours. Good morning, counsel.
10 Q. Good morning, Witness. Madam Usher, could I, please, have PO2434
11 shown to the witness. Sir, could you, please, have a look at that piece
12 of paper and can you confirm without reading what's on it, that you are
13 the person that's named in it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Have that shown to counsel, please.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Again I apologise to you,
17 Mr. Vanderpuye, for butting in like this. I mean it's not my style but
18 there are moments when it is needed.
19 Witness, testifying in these proceedings and in any proceedings is
20 not easy for any witness. So if at any time you need a short break or a
21 long break or you are feeling tired or you are not feeling too well,
22 please do tell us and we will accommodate you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Good morning to you, Witness. I would just ask you to try to keep
2 your voice up, if you can, to move a little closer to the microphone so
3 that everyone can hear you. The interpreters are trying to interpret
4 simultaneously, so if you would allow just a short pause between the
5 question and answer, so that we have time to catch up.
6 Also, I wanted to point out to you that because of the measures
7 we've taken to protect your identity, if you feel that the question that I
8 ask you or any counsel asks you calls for a response that may reveal
9 aspects of your identity, such as where you live or people that you know
10 or places that you've been, just let us know and I will ask the Trial
11 Chamber if they would consider moving into private session so that we can
12 discuss those matters more freely.
13 I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions and then I will
14 ask the Trial Chamber, with the Trial Chamber's indulgence, to move into
15 private session.
16 First, are you a -- are you a Bosnian by nationality, sir?
17 A. I'm not in the best of health, I'm coughing a lot, but I'm better
18 than I was three days ago.
19 Q. Okay. Do you feel able to testify in these proceedings at this
21 A. Yes. Yes, I can.
22 Q. Okay. So let me ask you, are you a Bosnian by nationality?
23 A. I am.
24 Q. And are you a Muslim by faith?
25 A. I am.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: May we move into private session, Mr. President?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.
3 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
13 Q. Now, Witness, I would like to direct your attention, if I could,
14 to the events of July 11th, 1995. In relation to the events concerning
15 Srebrenica --
16 A. That day, the 11th of July, 1995, I gathered hay and prepared food
17 for cattle on that day. And then I went into the house, took a back-pack,
18 and set out. We were told that there would be a gathering at Jaglici, and
19 I went to Jaglici with my wife and two daughters. We came to a point
20 where we had to separate. The elderly, civilian, and women were going to
21 Potocari, and we were going to the woods. However, I was going to go to
22 Potocari as well, but my back-pack was with my neighbour on a horse, and
23 it -- it went in the direction of the forest.
24 Q. Let me just slow you down for a second. And maybe we can take
25 this a little bit step-by-step. Okay?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You indicated that you were told that there would be a gathering
3 at Jaglici at some point on that day; is that right?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And do you recall how you received that information, who gave you
6 that information?
7 A. I was busy with the hay, and then my daughter came and said that a
8 neighbour of ours was killed and she said an order was issued to go,
9 because Srebrenica had fallen. I went into the house, I packed some food
10 and clothing, and then we set out. When we were near Ravne Njive, women,
11 children, and the elderly were to go to Potocari, to the UNPROFOR base. I
12 went with the army because my back-pack was on a horse and the bread was
13 there, so I didn't go to Potocari.
14 Q. Now, you said that you learned from your daughter that Srebrenica
15 had fallen, right?
16 A. Yes. I guess somebody in the village came in and told them that,
17 but I wasn't in the village, I was out in the field on my property.
18 Q. Now, after your daughter told you that, it seems that you decided
19 that you would leave. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, can you tell us, in deciding whether or not to leave, did you
22 leave immediately or did you -- did you leave a little bit later after
23 your daughter told you what had happened?
24 A. I just gathered some food and I went to the barn to release the
25 cattle. I came across my brother-in-law who said, "Don't do anything with
1 the cattle." The cattle remained in the barn. And then we set out. It
2 could have been around 7.00 or 7.30 in the evening.
3 Q. Did you see any other people leaving the area in which you were
4 around that time or throughout that day?
5 A. They set out before me, before I moved. There were columns, both
6 in front of me and behind me.
7 Q. Did you at any time consider the possibility of actually staying
8 in the area in which you were at that time?
9 A. Well, I thought that we would remain, because it was a protected
10 enclave. Women, children, and the elderly went to a location that was
11 safe. In my village, nine neighbours went to Potocari to the UNPROFOR
12 base to the protected enclave, and none of the nine are alive today.
13 Q. Well, at the time that your daughter told you that Srebrenica had
14 fallen, I assume that you understood that to mean that it had fallen to
15 the Serb forces. Is that a fair thing to say?
16 A. Well, naturally. Had it not been fallen to Serb forces, we
17 wouldn't have gone away.
18 Q. Now, did you leave that area on that day because you were ordered
19 to leave that area, or for other reasons?
20 A. Because Srebrenica was a protected enclave, and then they said
21 that the Serb forces entered Srebrenica and as soon as the town fell, the
22 villages fell as well. So we agreed to withdraw from that area.
23 Q. Now, you indicated that women and children and the elderly went to
24 Potocari. Now, among your -- among your family, did any of your family go
25 to Potocari?
1 A. My brother and his son, and then two neighbours. None of them are
2 alive nowadays. This is just from my family; brother, cousin, and another
3 two relatives.
4 Q. And you indicated that those people went to Potocari because it
5 was safe. Did you know at that time that it would be safe for them to go
7 A. Naturally it was safe, because UNPROFOR was there, and it was a
8 protected enclave. So they were hoping that it would be safer for them
9 there. And you can see just how safe it was for them. They're all gone
11 Q. Now, at some point you indicated that after you left you -- you
12 separated from some of the people that you were with. Could you tell us a
13 little bit about that?
14 A. There were a lot of us in columns moving towards Jaglici and
15 Potocari. I split from my family near the village called Ravne Njive. I
16 went to Jaglici and they went to Potocari.
17 Q. Now, did you go to Jaglici alone or -- well, I know you went with
18 a column, you indicated that, but did you go with anybody that you knew?
19 And please don't tell us what their names are.
20 A. Well, in the column that I was, almost everybody around me were my
21 neighbours. They were all familiar faces.
22 Q. Tell us what happened -- tell us what happened on your way to
24 A. On the way to Jaglici we had a safe passage. There was no
25 hinderance. We arrived at Jaglici and it was night-time. We spent the
1 entire night in Jaglici. On the 12th I went from Jaglici at around 12.30.
2 Q. Can you tell us where you went?
3 A. You mean from Jaglici?
4 Q. Yes, from Jaglici.
5 A. We left Jaglici and it was 20 to 1.00. I asked a forester what
6 time it was, and he told me it was 20 to 1.00. And we set out towards
7 Buljim. I didn't know what Buljim was, and this is where there was the
8 first ambush. People were killed there. I went with some of my
9 neighbours towards the river. I didn't know the area. I didn't know
10 where I was going. We went down the river and on both banks there were
11 dead bodies. We came to a forest. We didn't know where we were going.
12 And then we came across a neighbour of mine whose wife is from Kamenica,
13 and I asked him, "Where are we?" And he said, "We are near Kamenica."
14 And this is where we were when the night fell.
15 At night they started shooting near a hill. We started moving
16 towards the sound of shooting. We didn't know who was shooting. We could
17 hear a Praga firing and then we went back. This group of ours, there were
18 perhaps six to seven of us in our group. There was a lot of shooting,
19 bullets whizzing by my head, and I took shelter, I lay down. I thought
20 that that was the safest thing to do. And I thought that everybody else
21 had done the same.
22 When I got up, I didn't know what time of night it was, I called
23 out the names of my friends and none of them responded. I got up and I
24 could hear occasional bursts of fire and I started moving in that
25 direction, and then all of a sudden I heard, "Don't shoot. This is our
1 people." And then I said, "Who is it?" And then they said, "Come up
2 here." And then I said, "Who is talking to me?" And the man gave his
3 name and then I approached him and I sat next to him. And he asked me
4 whether I had anything in my back-pack. I said I had some meat, I had
5 some bread. He said, "I'm hungry." I said, "Well, here, have some."
6 Then he started eating and then we went from there. There were so many
7 dead bodies that you could step from one to the other one.
8 Then we moved some 500 metres and then people were
9 saying, "Brothers, help us." And you know people were killed. It was
10 night-time. There were a lot of wounded people. And then I separated
11 from this man who called me. I spent the whole night wandering through
12 the wounded looking for some familiar faces, but I didn't find anybody
13 familiar. Then they said that we should carry the wounded to a hill above
15 And then it dawned. We came to that hill. I didn't know where I
16 was. That was an unfamiliar terrain for me. And I saw that people were
17 lining up there. I recognised a man from a neighbouring village, and then
18 I came across three neighbours of mine down there. I asked them, "Where
19 are you going?" They said, "To line up." Then the four of us went back
20 and they said, "There are a lot of people from our village there." So we
21 went there and we found a large group of people. You couldn't count them
22 all, there were so many of them. I found a man who used to work as a male
23 nurse in our town, and then a person who was a teacher, then I found an
24 Imam who worked as an Imam in Vlasenica municipality. And then I also
25 found a policeman from my village.
1 So we were there. The nurse, the male nurse dressed the wounds of
2 the wounded. They carried -- they brought the wounded to him and he took
3 care of them. We sat there. I didn't know what time of the day it was,
4 and then all of a sudden from the hill above us, there was an oak forest
5 and we heard bursts of fire and they started saying, "Surrender,
6 surrender." We started going down to the meadow, to the asphalt road.
7 And all we could hear were the calls to surrender. They surrounded us
8 there. Some people starting raising up towels and T-shirts and saying
9 don't shoot, we will surrender. There were a lot of wounded there when
10 they surrendered us, and they ordered us to carry the wounded.
11 Then the forester, the one who told me that it was 20 to 1.00, I
12 saw him again and he had a blanket and he was carrying Mujo, his brother,
13 who was wounded. And he said, "Please don't leave my brother. We were
14 ordered to carry the wounded." I knew that man, the man who was wounded,
15 and we went down to the river, to some river. We were bringing the
16 wounded down to the river and then we were crossing it and then there were
17 two Serb soldiers and we went by them. They searched our pockets, just to
18 make sure we didn't have a knife, a pistol, a hand-grenade. They searched
19 through our back-packs or whatever belongings we had. They asked for
20 money from us.
21 I had 100 German marks in my pocket, and then I also had 600
22 German marks, or rather, 400 franks plus 200 German marks and it was sewn
23 into the lining and I gave him some money and then I said, "I don't have
25 We crossed the asphalt road with our arms raised up. We came to a
1 meadow. I don't know what that meadow was called. I didn't know where we
2 were until I escaped from the warehouse. And after I escaped from the
3 warehouse, I learned that we had been at Lolici. This is what the man who
4 was with me told me. I didn't know Lolici. We went across the asphalt
5 road, we sat on the meadow. And there was a huge crowd of people there.
6 I couldn't count them. Didn't even occur to me to count them. I listened
7 to the people talking around me, the nurse and the teacher and a
8 policeman. They were whispering among themselves, saying, "There must be
9 2.000 people here." I didn't count because it didn't even occur to me.
10 How they came to that figure, I have no idea whether there was
11 more or less, I don't know.
12 Q. Let me just interrupt you for a moment, if I may.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
14 MR. HAYNES: I didn't want to interrupt the witness's answer, but
15 it seems to me that we are going into very, very great detail now about
16 the column, a subject about which the Prosecution have made a number of
17 stipulations in this case, and about which you have voiced the concern
18 that it is not the proper subject of cross-examination. Now, either this
19 is relevant to the indictment or it isn't. And if it isn't, I don't
20 really see what is the purpose of extensive examination-in-chief about it.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you, Mr. Haynes.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President. Since I know that's
24 related to the last witness, we are through that area now. We are at the
25 meadow, and we -- and I know Mr. Vanderpuye is -- and the witness will try
1 to stay to the areas that are important, though -- and -- and we're doing
2 our best.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. In the same context, I, having listened
4 to what you said, Mr. Haynes, I do want to dispel from your minds any idea
5 that the existence of a column or the way they proceeded or its
6 composition are irrelevant to -- to the case. I mean they are highly
7 relevant, but what I said yesterday still stands. I mean what has been
8 stipulated and what has already to an extent been decided upon by the
9 Trial Chamber in its decision on adjudicated facts ought to be respected,
10 and unnecessary -- unnecessary examination and cross-examination should be
12 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye. Please go straight now to...
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. I wasn't aware of the previous discussion.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You were not here yesterday, obviously, so I do
15 understand that.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE:
17 Q. Witness, I just want to focus your attention, if I could, at the
18 period of time from your surrender up until the time that you were at the
19 meadow. I just want to backtrack a little bit. Now, you said that when
20 you surrendered, was it that you were escorted an asphalt road or is that
21 the place where you actually surrendered?
22 A. We surrendered up there in the meadow, and they followed the
23 column, descending down to the river and carrying the wounded. They told
24 us to carry the wounded. As we were descending to the river, as we
25 descended, we crossed the river and then they searched us, the two of us.
1 They searched us, they took our money, they tied our hands behind our
2 necks. We crossed the asphalt road and then we sat in the meadow. They
3 brought people there in groups and individually. Later on I saw that they
4 brought two neighbours of mine, and then there was a large group of people
5 that gathered in that meadow.
6 Q. Now --
7 A. And they were around us, their soldiers. I can't say that they
8 beat us.
9 Q. Just hang on a second. Did you see what happened to the wounded
10 people at the time that you surrendered?
11 A. When we sat in the meadow, they took the wounded to a house to the
12 right of us. What happened in the house I don't know, because we sat in
13 the meadow. There was a tank on the right and one on the left. They
14 twice brought in a water truck, which sprayed us, because it was very hot.
15 The tank that was on the right pointed its barrel at us twice. There was
16 a man there in civilian uniform, and he said, "You stupid men, just raise
17 that barrel up." It didn't shoot at us. This was just meant to abuse us.
18 And then the soldiers who were around us provided cigarettes to
19 those who smoked. They didn't beat us. There was a man in front of me in
20 the third row. I didn't know him. The children brought water. He asked
21 for water. And then a Serb soldier kicked him in the head, and then
22 another one hit him on the side of the head. He started bleeding and then
23 one grabbed him by the tie, the other one grabbed him by his legs, and
24 they moved him some six to seven metres away and shot a burst of fire into
25 him. We left the meadow and his body remained lying there.
1 We sat there in the meadow and then they recognised the
2 policeman. A Serb soldier called him by his name and he approached them.
3 He said hello to them. And then the two of them greeted him. They hugged
4 him, they kissed him, and I felt good about it because I thought that here
5 these people are friends, and they will release us. And then they took
6 him to a house on the left. He stayed there for about an hour, hour and a
7 half, and then he came back with three soldiers. And he stood by the tank
8 and called his brother. He said, "Give me my jacket." The brother came
9 across and brought him the jacket. They asked who this man is. And he
10 said, "My brother." Then he turned around and called out the third
11 brother. Then they asked again who is he? And he said brother too. And
12 they said, "Well, all of you can go." And the three of them were taken
13 above the house where the wounded were, the three soldiers and the three
14 of them, and they have not been heard from ever since. I didn't hear any
15 shoots, but to this day, nobody has ever heard of them.
16 We continuing sitting in that meadow and then General Mladic
18 Q. Let me just stop you right there for a minute. With respect to
19 the soldiers, can you just describe to the Court, first of all, were they
20 in uniform, and if you can remember what the uniforms looked like, could
21 you just describe that to the Court?
22 A. All of them were in multi-coloured uniforms. They were young, had
23 regular crew-cuts, and were properly shaved. It was the regular army.
24 When Mladic came, he stood in front of us and addressed us. The first
25 thing he said is, "Do you know me?" Some people said yes, we do, some
1 people kept quiet. I didn't know anything. I just kept quiet. All I
2 thought was my fate. His first words were, "Naser has deserted you. He
3 fled to Tuzla. It's not a good idea to fight with Serbia [as
4 interpreted]. We have almost evacuated your families. They are
5 accommodated in Tuzla, Kladanj, and another place. Most likely, within a
6 day or two, you will follow and all of you will be able to find your
7 families. Nobody will beat you, nobody will provoke you. We will provide
8 food to you. It's very hot here where you are. We will find cooler
9 accommodation for you."
10 Then an applause ensued and people said, "Thank you, comrade
11 general." I raised my arm. He said, "What?" I said -- I raised my foot
12 and I said, "Comrade general, you can see that I'm bare footed. I have
13 shoes in my back-pack and I would like to put them on." And he said, "You
14 will get your shoes." I said, "Thank you, comrade general." Then he
16 Then after some 15 to 20 minutes, the man who was in civilian
17 uniform said that we were to be searched, and I heard them address one
18 person as Madzarevic. I didn't know him. One of them was blond, had his
19 hair tied in a ponytail with a black ribbon. They searched us and they
20 found money in my lining. They find 600 German marks, my daughter's
21 necklace and 10 gold coins. They confiscated that from me. After they
22 searched us, the same men in civilian uniform had a German shepherd. He
23 also had a machine-gun, and he was some 60 to 70 metres away. I didn't
24 know whether it was machine-gun 53 or 74 -- or rather 84. Then he said
25 that we should line up in columns by four. A column started forming and I
1 was maybe somewhere in the middle of the column. On both sides of the
2 column there was a soldier --
3 Q. Let me just stop you there if I could again.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I didn't want to interrupt the witness,
6 particularly not my colleague, but I have one small intervention on the
7 transcript. It is on page 21, line 4. The witness said -- well, quoting
8 Mladic, he said, "It is not a good idea to fight with Serbs." And here it
9 says "with Serbia." That's the only thing.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't confirm that obviously because I don't
11 understand the language.
12 But, Witness, when you were telling us repeating the words that
13 according to you General Mladic pronounced at the time, did he say it's
14 not a good idea to fight with Serbia or it is not a good idea to fight
15 with Serbs?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When he came and addressed us, the
17 first thing he said, but let me repeat it again, "Naser has deserted you.
18 He fled to Tuzla. It's not a good idea to fight with a Serb." With a
19 Serb, not a good idea. Later on I realised what it is that he said
20 because they let us go in a triangle and they cut the road. So he was
21 right, because what he said was that the cattle cannot leave the corral
22 until an opening is created. And the same applied to us. We could not
23 get out of that circle until they made an opening for us.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Witness.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I have a break now, please?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's -- how much time do you need?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At least 10, 15 minutes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So instead of having the usual break at
6 10.30, we will have it now. And it will be a 25-minute break. Thank you.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.01 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.28 a.m.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Are you better, Witness?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right. I mean it's not the
11 best that it could be, but it's all right.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure he will -- when you give your answers, try
14 to move near the microphones as much as you can.
15 Mr. Vanderpuye.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. May we go into private
17 session for just a moment?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. Let's go into private session.
19 [Private session]
11 Page 7093 redacted. Private session
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Witness, I think before the break you had just started to talk
13 about being part of a column at the meadow and being lined up in groups of
14 four or four abreast. Could you tell us about that, please?
15 A. From the meadow, there was an order to get into a column, four
16 abreast. The column formed. I was perhaps somewhere after the first half
17 of the column, and we were moving towards Kravica, but I didn't know that.
18 It was the first time that I had come to Kravica. When we were
19 approaching Kravica, there was an UNPROFOR APC on the right-hand side.
20 Some soldiers were standing around there. Nobody reacted in any way. We
21 were passing by. We came in front of the warehouse. There was a bus
22 parked in front of the warehouse, and we were passing between the bus and
23 the warehouse. I passed the first entrance, and I came to the second
24 entrance. And that's where I went in, through the second entrance door.
25 And it was all full up to the second entrance. And a person
1 called me who had been with us. He said, "Come and sit next to me." I
2 said, "I want to lean against the wall because my back hurts." So I
3 carried on along the warehouse. A soldier who was standing at the
4 entrance, he cursed God or something at me and he said, "Sit down." And I
5 said, "I want to lean against the wall because my back hurts." And I came
6 to a corner and I sat and leaned against the wall. When the warehouse was
7 filled, when the last person came in, he had nowhere to sit. And that
8 soldier kicked him in the lower back. He cursed the son and said, "Sit
9 down." He said, "Well, you can see I don't have anywhere to sit." And he
10 fired a burst of fire and that knocked him down and then there was a burst
11 of fire, all kinds of weapons. I just bent my head in the corner. I
12 closed my eyes. The shooting went on almost until night. They would stop
13 a little bit and you couldn't see anything in the -- in the warehouse
14 because it was very dusty. I saw this last man who had come in.
15 When the night fell, the shooting quieted down. You could hear
16 them in front of the warehouse, laughing, talking. I was lying in the
17 warehouse. There was blood all underneath me. My whole right-hand side
18 was soaked in blood. I brought that shirt and sweater to Zepa and they
19 could see what my shirt and sweater were like.
20 I was lying there during the whole night. I was brought there on
21 the 13th to the warehouse. On the 14th, the whole day, I spent in the
22 warehouse, amongst the dead. And then when the 14th was over, at night, I
23 had this kind of image as if they were drinking water, and I got up and
24 moved through the dead. I found a neighbour of mine. He said, "Where are
25 you going?" I said, "I want to drink water." He said, "Forget the
1 water. Just lie down." So I lay down, and he lay down next to me. I
2 asked him, "Are you wounded?" He said, "No." He asked me if I was and I
3 said, "No."
4 It was already dawn. You could sense it through the windows at
5 the door that it was dawn. He got up. I said, "Where are you going?" He
6 said, "I want to urinate --" I apologise "-- so that I could drink." I
7 said, "Lie down." But he was cut down by a burst of fire and he fell. I
8 took him by the knee. After about 10 or 15 minutes his body was stiff,
9 not moving. I pulled two dead bodies over me and I spent the entire day
11 In the morning, when it got light, you could see that it got
12 light, they asked are there any unhurt people there? They can come out
13 and they can join their army. People came out. I don't know who went out
14 and how many of them. I didn't see and I didn't look. A truck engine
15 started and I don't know which direction it went in. I don't know what
16 was happening outside, just what I was able to hear. I don't know what
17 time of the day it was.
18 They said, "Are there any wounded? They can come out and we can
19 take them to the hospital." The wounded came out. I don't know of those
20 how many of them came out. They were killed. And then you couldn't hear
21 anyone in the warehouse, not even a moan or a shout. One of them started
22 to shout out, "Salko, Salko, Salko." He shouted it 10 or 15 times. They
23 cursed his Turkish mother. And he was cut down by shots. You couldn't
24 hear anyone moaning or shouting. Maybe an hour or an hour and a half
25 passed. One of them started to call out "Adila, water. Adila, water."
1 He was so exhausted that they could hardly understand it. They cursed his
2 Islam tribe and he was cut down by a burst of fire. You couldn't hear
3 anybody any more than you could hear some kind of noise or something. I
4 didn't move. I didn't look.
5 And then when it was dark again, I could hear a command, "Park the
6 loader. Wash the asphalt. Cover the dead with hay." They threw hay all
7 over us and then I thought, Why didn't I get killed? I thought that they
8 were going to set it on fire and that I would be burned alive. But they
9 didn't set the hay on fire.
10 When it was night, you couldn't hear anyone in front of the
11 warehouse. You couldn't hear any talk or any machinery. You could just
12 hear an occasional vehicle pass by on the asphalt. But it wasn't very
14 Maybe it was 12.30, after midnight, and I started to move. I
15 pulled out from among the dead bodies because I couldn't stand it anymore
16 in the blood. And I was stiff. I got up and I moved around a little bit,
17 and I sat down. Had someone taken me by the hand and said, Let's go, I
18 wouldn't have been able to go. I was so stiff. I sat for an hour or two
19 and I was rubbing my legs and my arms and I came to a little bit, and I
20 was able to go. But I didn't know where to go. It was as if somebody had
21 thrown me out of an airplane. I was sitting and thinking what I could do.
22 And I could hear some whispering and I moved towards this whispering and I
23 thought when they had killed everyone they could kill me too. But I found
24 two people sitting up inside, one of them was young, tall. Another one --
25 the other one was my age, maybe. And I said, "Let's run." And this
1 young, tall man said, "We can't go together. Where are you from?" He
2 said, "I'm from Lolici." I said, "Well, let me go with you. You know the
3 area around here." And he said, "Well, we can't go together." I said, "I
4 don't know where I can go." I tell you we can't go together. Then I
5 asked the other one, "Where are you from?" He just made this gesture with
6 his shoulders. He said, "That's Muskic Ramiz from Cerska. He can't hear
7 very well." Again I asked him if I could go with him. "I tell you, we
8 can't go together. Go across the asphalt, you will find a path to the
9 river, and then in 15 or 20 minutes, I will follow you."
10 And I decided to go. I decided. I got up because he didn't let
11 me go with him. I left through the same door that I came in. There was a
12 loader parked there. It was dark. I passed the loader and I stepped out
13 with my right leg first on the asphalt. I remember that. I didn't see
14 anyone on the right-hand side of the asphalt until somebody shouted stop.
15 I didn't see them before that. He shouted, "Stop" and I lay down. The
16 second time he shouted, "Get up, get up." I kept lying down. The third
17 time he said, sharply, "Get up." I jumped up. The other one just lay
18 down next to me, behind the warehouse, the warehouse I left behind on my
19 left-hand side.
20 I came down into a river. I just put my head in the water to
21 drink because my mouth was totally dry from the dust. I couldn't speak.
22 The other guy next to me went into the river. We crossed the river. We
23 went into this corn. We left the corn. There was a road between the corn
24 and the woods. I took him by the hand. He couldn't hear me. "Where are
25 we going?" He said, "Kaldrmica, Cerska, Baljkovica." Just keep to the
1 left, keep to the left. I couldn't communicate with him. He couldn't
2 hear me, and I couldn't speak loudly.
3 We took the road. There was a bend in the road around the
4 cornfield. Again I went down, I drank water. I went back. We sat under
5 a tree, and we could hear bursts of fire from the warehouse. But one
6 burst of fire, another burst of fire, and nobody came after us. When we
7 left there were no bullets behind us. Nobody was heard to say "Stop." I
8 can't say, perhaps somebody was humane. They could have killed us with a
9 stone, never mind with a rifle, but nobody fired a shot behind us, after
10 us, and nobody shouted for us to stop.
11 It began to rain. We went to a tree that had been knocked over.
12 We were wet. A few days we were walking around in that area. Let's go
13 back. He just kept saying, "Baljkovica, Kaldrmica, Cerska." He just kept
14 saying, "I know that. We couldn't cross the asphalt." He brought me to
15 some place where I found a couple of neighbours from my village and they
16 told me there was a forester in Srebrenica. He had a transistor radio, a
17 pocket one, and he said Zepa hasn't fallen yet. Well, I wanted to get to
18 this forester because he knew the terrain, just so he could take me out of
19 Pobudje. The forester didn't come there and at night about 30 people
20 collected there in that area where there were some walls and there were
21 frying some mushrooms and stuff.
22 Then in the morning I found three people from the Bratunac
23 municipality. I called them, Let's go. And then this man said, from my
24 neighbouring village, "My child can't leave hungry." He had a small son
25 with him, about 15 years old. He was worn down by hunger. But he's going
1 to die here of hunger. There is nothing here, there is no corn, there is
2 no wheat, there is no potatoes. Let's go. He said, "My boy can't go
3 hungry." And then with these two from the Bratunac municipality, I
4 decided to go. Do you know the road? I don't. Two deaf and dumb men,
5 both of them from Cerska, came and they knew this man who came out with
6 me. The three of them were together and they kept saying, "Kaldrmica,
7 Cerska, Baljkovica." I said good-bye to them, and I went with these two
8 people from the Bratunac municipality.
9 I didn't know the road. They don't know the road. You could hear
10 bursts of fire above this village of Jelah. We hid in some nettles in a
11 garden and you could hear music. And then we went up through an oak
12 forest. We met a young man. He said, "Where are you going?" I
13 said, "We're going to Srebrenica. Where are you from? From Jagodnja." I
14 couldn't believe him. He said, "Do you know Hasim, the forester?" He
15 said, "It is my first neighbour." I said, "It is my neighbour too. I
16 don't know who was leading me. Who would I be going with? How many
17 children does Hasim have? Tell them the names." And he told the names,
18 what's his wife's name, and he told me the wife's name, Munevera called
19 Banana. And me and these two people and him, now there were four of us
20 joined together. We came up to that hill above Jelah and then I saw eight
21 dead bodies there and this man, this young man from Jagodnja escaped from
22 there. I said, "Do you know where Rahunici is? Over there. That's where
23 the mosque was."
24 Q. Can I just stop you for a moment. If I could, I would like to --
25 if I may, and I don't -- I know you have a lot to say, and it's all very
1 important. But I'd like to show you some photographs, if I could, of the
2 warehouse. Just so that you can tell the Court and give the Court an idea
3 of where you were when the incident transpired there. I think the first
4 thing I'd like to show you is 65 ter 15 -- 1565. If I could just have
5 that on the monitor, please.
6 All right. Can you see the photograph on your monitor, sir? I
7 would like to have the witness also mark the photograph, if I could. I
8 think he may require some assistance.
9 All right. Are you all right, sir?
10 A. I'm all right.
11 Q. Okay. First, do you recognise what's depicted in this exhibit?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Okay. And just tell the Court what it is, so that it's clear for
14 the record.
15 A. I came from this direction. I passed this entrance --
16 Q. Just tell us what it is that you see on there. Well, let me ask
17 you this: Is that where you were taken?
18 A. According to me, yes. But the -- this door does not seem to me to
19 be the door. The door seems to be different than when we were there.
20 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to mark this photograph in a way. Do
21 you recognise on this photograph the door that you entered or left from?
22 A. On this photograph, that's where the bus was parked, and I passed
23 this entrance door and I got in to -- through this entrance.
24 Q. Okay. I'm just going to ask if you could mark --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE:
2 Q. Is that what I'm seeing? Is there a mark on there?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: There no marks.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: There is a tiny mark.
5 Q. Okay. Could you put -- let's see, the letters -- I don't
6 know, "I-n", that would be a word.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Make it one letter. Make it "E", entry.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Only because --
9 Q. All right. E for entry. Could you write that letter, please, at
10 the door that you have entered from?
11 A. Here, should I put it? [Marks].
12 Q. Okay. Can you make an arrow pointing to that door, please?
13 A. That's the door that I went out through.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I went this way and I came to this door and I entered through this
16 door. There was a soldier here, and another one here. I passed between
17 them and I went to the extreme -- to the corner at the far end of the
18 warehouse, close to the river.
19 Q. Let's see if we can take this one step at a time. Okay? So
20 first, we'll talk about the door. If you could mark -- it seems to me
21 that you have marked the door that you entered, right?
22 A. I passed this one. This is the first door. And then I came in
23 through the second door. And I also came out through that same door.
24 Q. Okay. So what I would like you to mark then, if we can -- if we
25 could do that, is "I/O" right on that door. If he could, yeah.
1 A. Here.
2 Q. Yes, please.
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. Thank you. Now, can we -- I think we may need a different
5 photograph to do this, but could you mark this PW-156 A in the top
6 left-hand corner? That seems to be the cleanest place to mark it.
7 A. P, is that what you said?
8 Q. Yes. Yes, sir. That's just fine.
9 A. P. [Marks].
10 Q. Yeah, that's fine. All right. Can we -- is it possible to have
11 another frame of the same photograph because I would like him to make
12 additional markings, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: He needs to put 156.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Oh, he does. Okay.
15 Q. Please put "156" next to what you've written as "P."
16 A. [Marks].
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Witness.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Witness. Thank you, Mr. President. I
19 think we can file this one away and proceed with a -- I guess another
20 version of this same photograph for him to mark.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, if you are able, could you mark on the
22 photograph where it is you saw the loader, and you could probably just
23 designate that with the letter L.
24 A. It was night. I remember well. And the loader was then on this
25 side. I came out through this door and the loader was there.
1 Q. Okay. Could you mark that with the letter L, please.
2 A. [Marks].
3 Q. Okay. Could you also put the letter B where it is you saw the
4 bus, if you can, on this -- on this frame.
5 A. The bus perhaps was here. We were passing by there, and the bus
6 maybe was there. We just passed between, between the warehouse and the
8 Q. Okay. Can you put the letter B at that location, please?
9 A. [Marks].
10 Q. All right. And could you also write in the top-left
11 corner "PW-156"?
12 A. T?
13 Q. P, like you did in the last photo. And then "156."
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. Okay. I think we can file this one away. And if I could, I would
16 like to bring up 65 ter 1563 to show the witness.
17 All right. I would just like you to mark on this -- this
18 photograph the direction from which you -- from which you came when you
19 entered the warehouse. If you could indicate that with an arrow, that
20 would be helpful.
21 A. We came in this direction. I think that that's the door.
22 Q. Okay. Can you just finish off that line with an arrow?
23 A. Inside or...
24 Q. I think that's fine. That's fine. And could you mark on this
25 photograph where you saw the loader and where you saw the bus? If you are
2 A. The bus was here when we came, but when I was leaving the bus
3 wasn't there anymore. The loader was in the same place.
4 Q. Okay. It's -- it's not possible for us to see what you are
5 pointing at, so I wondered if you could just mark it.
6 A. Here. This is where the loader was. I went out through this
7 door. The loader was here, and I went towards the asphalt. And then I
8 went here, and the warehouse was on my left.
9 Q. Okay. Could you just mark on the top of this photograph on the
10 left, "PW-156," please.
11 A. [Marks]. P, what else? V?
12 Q. 156. PW-156.
13 A. 756.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Leave it. I mean, let's be practical.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If he could write 156, it would be all
16 right. Just for the record, the witness has indicated, so that it's clear
17 what's on the photo, that he proceeded from what's depicted on the right
18 side of the photograph toward the left side of the photograph and that the
19 loader is indicated by a vertical line or two vertical lines maybe, just
20 outside the structure that's depicted in the middle of the photograph
21 toward the right, near the entrance where the witness had previously
22 indicated he entered and exited. Okay. I think that will do it for this
23 photograph as well.
24 Could we just go into private session for a moment, please,
25 Mr. President?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
2 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
17 Who is going first from the Defence teams? Mr. Stojanovic.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. Your Honours, before I begin my cross-examination and agree with
23 the witness about the terms we're going to use, could we please go into
24 private session?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's go into private session, please.
1 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Sir, when you testified some time ago, you mentioned a man called
25 Ejub Golic. Do you remember mentioning him and what you said about him?
1 A. I never knew this Golic man. When we came near Buljim on a first
2 ambush, I saw that man there, but I wouldn't know who he was except that
3 my neighbour told me he was next to last person to arrive there. This was
4 a macadam road and the column was halted on that road. And then a young
5 man came and said, "What are you waiting -- what are we waiting for?" And
6 then he said that there was a stream, some 100 to 200 metres ahead and
7 that the trace of the column was lost. And he said -- and then he
8 said, "I will find you the trace." And then I asked my neighbour, "Who is
9 this?" And the neighbour said, "This is Golic." And he went to the man
10 who was down there. I remained on the macadam road. And to the left of
11 the hill we heard somebody shout, "What are they waiting for, mother
12 fuckers" pardon me, and then the shooting started, people dispersed and I
13 never saw Golic again.
14 I went down a stream, as I told you earlier. I didn't know where
15 I was going. We went down that stream and there were both dead and
16 wounded on both banks of that stream.
17 Q. Thank you. We should proceed slowly because we speak the same
18 language. On that occasion, how many soldiers passed with Ejub Golic?
19 A. It was a long column. Ejub was next to last to arrive. I think
20 that he was next to last to leave Jaglici. And as for Buljim, why they
21 halted there, I don't know. I keep wondering to this day. When Ejub
22 came, he said, "What are we waiting for?" And they said, "We lost the
23 trace of the column down there." And then he said, "What are we waiting
24 for?" and then cursed their mothers. And then all of a sudden, the
25 shooting started on the left and on the right. People dispersed. Nobody
1 paid attention to anybody else. Nobody paid attention to the wounded or
2 to the dead. Everybody tried to save their own skin.
3 Q. Very well. At one point in time, were the people told to go to
4 the right towards Siljkovici, Lolici, Sandici. Do you remember such an
6 A. I don't hear this from anyone. Perhaps, somebody heard such an
7 order. I didn't. I'm just telling you about what I heard and what I saw.
8 I came to that spot, to that macadam road with my next door neighbour and
9 I learned from him that this was Ejub Golic. And once they started
10 shooting, people dispersed and I never heard Ejub again after that. We
11 went down the stream. It became dark. We turned to the left to a forest.
12 Q. All right. Let me ask you this: You said that you came to the
13 asphalt road and that some of the people from your group said that this
14 village was called Lolici?
15 A. I didn't get to the asphalt road. We were near Kamenica, outside
16 of Kamenica when we were encircled and we surrendered there and then they
17 forced us to go down to Lolici to the asphalt road. And the man who fled
18 from the warehouse with me called me, told me that that place was called
20 Q. The meadow where you were, did he tell you that that was the
21 village of Lolici?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you hear of the village of Sandici? Do you know where that
24 village is?
25 A. Yes. I heard about that upon my return to Srebrenica. I filed
1 various requests to have my property returned to me and I passed through
2 Sandici which is near Bratunac, but until that time, I had never seen that
3 place. I heard that that area called Podbudje had a number of villages
4 but I had never visited that area before.
5 Q. Now that you passed through that region and that you saw the signs
6 saying Sandici, do you still remain by your statement that you were in the
7 village of Lolici?
8 A. I didn't know whether it was Lolici or Sandici or Hrncici or
9 something else. It's just that he had told me, this is what he said, that
10 we were in Lolici.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: The procedure here is that what you are saying in
12 your own language and what Mr. Stojanovic is saying in his own language
13 needs to be translated to us into English and into French. So it is
14 important that when Mr. Stojanovic finishes his question, putting his
15 question, that you don't jump in and start answering the question straight
16 away. You need to allow a short interval of time, a short pause, so that
17 the interpreters can finish translating what Mr. Stojanovic would be
18 saying. All right? Is that clear?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for your cooperation.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Sir, now could you give me an approximate estimate of time, from
24 20 to 1.00 when you arrived until you moved to Kravica, how long did you
25 stay in Lolici?
1 A. I didn't have a watch on me, but in my judgement, we sat there for
2 four to five hours. Now, as to when we arrived, I don't know that either.
3 I think that many a person would find it difficult to estimate the time as
4 to exactly how long we stayed there and so on, because those were
5 difficult moments.
6 Q. Let me ask you this way: How long after Mladic's departure
7 elapsed before you went to Kravica?
8 A. After Mladic's departure, we stayed less than half an hour, and
9 then we set out.
10 Q. When you were lined up and when you set out as you have described
11 to us, did all of the prisoners set out from the meadow or not?
12 A. When I set out, I was in the middle of the column, or thereabouts.
13 And those behind me naturally set out too. When we reached a curve, I saw
14 the front end of the column, and I think that they did set out, because
15 they entered the warehouse after me, and the warehouse was full. So I
16 guess nobody was left behind in the meadow.
17 Q. When you testified down there sometime ago, you testified -- you
18 described a man who was at the front end of the column, at the helm of the
19 column, that he was of medium height, dark hair, a blue sweater and a
21 A. I didn't say a jacket. He was in civilian uniform. He had a dog
22 on a leash. He had a machine-gun, either 53 or 84. I can't tell you
23 exactly because he was at a distance from me. As for the jacket, I didn't
24 see a jacket.
25 Q. Was his face painted with black paint?
1 A. He had some kind of black grease. I -- I didn't put the grease on
2 him. I could see what his eyes were like and his teeth.
3 Q. Well, I believe that it's hard to do that, and I'm just trying to
4 help you by telling you what you said before. That man, did he order,
5 after Mladic left, you to line up and to go to Srebrenica [as
7 A. He ordered that a column be formed, a column of four abreast like
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps for the
10 transcript, page 43, line 16, the witness and I said "to go to Kravica"
11 but in the transcript it says "to go towards Srebrenica."
12 Q. If we can agree, Witness, you said to go to Kravica; is that
14 A. Well, no, no, not Srebrenica. I wasn't going towards Srebrenica,
15 I was fleeing from Srebrenica.
16 Q. Yes, that is correct. Thank you. You also said that the column
17 was followed by another group of people in civilian clothing with weapons.
18 Do you recall saying that?
19 A. I didn't say anywhere in civilian clothing, as far as I can
20 recall. But in military uniforms, everybody had automatic rifles on both
21 sides of the columns. They all had ammunition belts, and they were
22 carrying their weapons at the ready, sir.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we can move to a
24 private session for a second, please.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's do that.
1 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. When you set off towards Kravica in the column that you described,
4 were you tied?
5 A. No. I didn't see anyone that was tied.
6 Q. And were you tied when you were sitting on the meadow at Lolici?
7 A. No. From what I recall, I didn't say that we were tied anywhere.
8 When we were crossing the river, we had to place our hands behind our
9 backs, behind our head, and this was something that the two soldiers who
10 searched us told us to do when we were crossing the river.
11 Q. When you say hands tied, you don't mean your hands are tied with a
13 A. I think you told me you understood me properly, that I placed my
14 hand behind my back, as I was told, nobody told me to do it. I hope you
15 understood me.
16 Q. I understand you now.
17 A. You understood that a long time ago, but you're just getting on my
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's calm down. All right. Witness, I
20 can understand that you are not feeling that well, and that you get
21 irritated sometimes. On the other hand, Mr. Stojanovic, like every our
22 lawyer, is doing his duty here, and you need to understand that. He is
23 trying to defend his client.
24 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand completely the lawyer,
1 but the lawyer also, the gentleman needs to understand me. Because I
2 would like to ask the lawyer, had he been in my place, how he would have
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. I don't know if we need a
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I need to calm the waters a little bit. I
8 think let's have a 10-minute break. In the meantime, you will both have
9 an opportunity to think on what you have said and what has been happening.
10 Witness, we are going to have a short break of 10 minutes. And
11 then we will continue afterwards. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 --- Break taken at 11.27 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Witness, before we continue, I would really like to apologise once
18 again if I disturbed you in any way, and I really want to tell you that it
19 is my objective just to establish the real truth of what happened, and to
20 eliminate any kind of inconsistencies that we have. I don't have any
21 other intention.
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. Thank you. The next thing that I would like to ask you is if you
24 can tell us, according to your best recollection, how long in time or in
25 kilometres you went from that place where you were on the meadow to the
1 Kravica warehouse?
2 A. I really couldn't tell you the exact times because I didn't have a
3 watch when I set off or when I arrived. I can't even tell you how many
4 kilometres it was. I really couldn't give you the exact time, how long we
5 walked. Because I was afraid, all I was thinking is what would happen to
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. I really couldn't tell you how long we travelled.
9 Q. All right. Then I'm going to ask you this: Earlier you mentioned
10 that on the way to the warehouse you saw an APC, a UN APC?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us where it was approximately that you saw it? Was
13 it close to the Kravica warehouse?
14 A. Well, it wasn't that far between Lolici and Kravica. It was
15 closer to Kravica than to Lolici. It was on the right-hand side.
16 Q. Was it following you or was it just standing?
17 A. It was standing on the right-hand side. There were some soldiers
18 standing around it, who they were or what they were, I don't know. They
19 didn't react in any way. We passed by it and it stayed on the road.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to show you a photograph that you
21 had the opportunity to see earlier. I think that we can do it in e-court.
22 PO2435. Maybe we can look at that and I would like to ask the usher to
23 help us and to give the witness the marker so that he could mark what I
24 asked him to on the photograph.
25 When you see the picture on the screen I would like to ask you --
1 before you see that, I would like to ask you about the time, the moment
2 you came in front of the Kravica warehouse.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Stojanovic, this document or this
4 photo that you have chosen has markings in it, blue ink. What's your
5 position on that, Mr. Vanderpuye? Do we have a clean one to start with?
6 Because I think if we do we can cut this short and go to the clean one but
7 I don't know the reference number.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Right, Mr. President. We don't have a clean
9 version of this photograph. My understanding is this photograph was a
10 photograph used in the state court proceedings and was disclosed to us or
11 furnished to us in relation to the testimony.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, stop.
13 Mr. Stojanovic, I suppose we can proceed, having heard that. Go
14 ahead with your question.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps that can
16 help us to be more efficient, because it's a photograph, and what is
17 marked has been marked by the witness in the previous trial, and this is
18 actually what my question is about.
19 Q. Can you see this photograph in front of you, Witness?
20 A. Yes, I see it. But it's not the same here as it was in the other
21 photographs. It's a little bit tighter here, a bit more closed.
22 Q. This is a photograph that you marked in the trial that is behind
24 A. Yes, I see what is marked in ink pen, but it's looking a bit
25 different now.
1 Q. Well, I'm going to guide you with my questions and maybe you can
2 find your way around. Would it be true if I said that you came along this
3 road where a line in ink pen has been drawn?
4 A. I came from Lolici along this road. I see where the line has been
5 drawn and I see the entrance as well that is marked with the pen.
6 Q. Well, my question on that is as follows: There, where it's marked
7 with the pen, is that where you turned to go towards the warehouse?
8 A. Yes, that is where we turned from the asphalt road to the
9 warehouse, but there was a bus between the warehouse and the asphalt and
10 we walked between the bus and the warehouse.
11 Q. Thank you. I would now like to ask you to help us with the
12 following: According to our information and exhibits that we were given,
13 there is a wire fence here separating the road from the warehouse. I am
14 now going to show you those documents and then we can see.
15 A. The fence wasn't there then. When I was going into the warehouse
16 the fence wasn't there then.
17 Q. Well, perhaps you can then allow us to see it and then we can see
18 about that.
19 Your Honours, perhaps we can look at an excerpt from some footage
20 we received from the Prosecution, V0002024. This is the time from 32
21 minutes 23 seconds to 32 minutes 49 seconds. So it's just 26 seconds
22 long. And it is footage, (redacted)
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the conditions that I was coming
2 in I did not see the fence. Whether it was put there before or after, I
3 don't know. All I know is that I didn't see it.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Now, we are going to look at --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I think we need to decide on
7 whether this should be redacted or not. I need to consult my colleagues
8 of course. In lines -- let's go into private session, please.
9 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We may
3 proceed. We will not be using this exhibit any longer, except in this
4 case. By your leave, I would like to put another photograph which is the
5 closest one we have to the events timewise, and this is from the
6 collection of Mr. Ruez. Could we please see Exhibit 4D74. In order to
7 gain an idea of where this is located, we don't think that we can get
8 anywhere further with this witness as to the exact location of the fence
9 at the time. So we need 4D74, please.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: If this is necessary, because the witness now has --
11 a while before he said there was. He has now told you that he never saw
12 one, which leaves room for certain conclusions. Not having seen one
13 doesn't mean there wasn't one.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I will now
15 conclude with this topic by putting another question.
16 Q. Witness, we heard your answer. We are not expecting anything
17 different from you. But now looking at this picture, the warehouse from a
18 different angle, would you perhaps reconsider and tell us whether there
19 might have been a fence at the time when you were there? Do you see the
21 A. Yes, I see the warehouse, I see the road. I told you that I
22 didn't see a fence. A fence did not exist at the time. And I can't say
23 that I saw it.
24 Q. All right. I won't have any more questions about this. Thank you
25 for your assistance, Your Honours.
1 Now I would like to ask you this, Witness: As you were walking
2 towards the warehouse, and as you were entering the warehouse, in the
3 nearby hills and around the warehouse, did you hear any shooting?
4 A. Yes. We could hear the shooting while we sat there around the
5 hills, and then there was the tank that I told you on the left. It fired
6 towards the forest. They were telling him that people from Srebrenica
7 were in the forest, so he fired at the forest.
8 Q. Thank you. What I want to ask you next is the moment when the
9 shooting started. As I understood your testimony, when the last man
10 entered through the same door through which you had entered, and when he
11 was actually unable to enter --
12 A. No, no, he did enter but there was nowhere for him to sit down.
13 The guy told him to sit down, ordered him to sit down, and kicked him.
14 And he turned towards him and said, "See, there is no where for me to sit
15 down." And then he shot a burst of fire into him and this is when the
16 shooting started and I just bent my head down and the shooting continued
17 all the way to the night.
18 Q. I want to ask you how long in your estimate that lasted when you
19 say until the night?
20 A. As we entered the warehouse, and I didn't tell you what time it
21 was when I entered, it was in the afternoon, perhaps 3.00, 4.00 p.m.,
22 perhaps even 5.00. And they were shooting until it became dark. When it
23 became dark, the shooting ceased.
24 Q. In the course of that night, I'm now referring to the night
25 between the 13th and the 14th, was there a lull?
1 A. There was a lull during the night. There was no shooting. We can
2 hear them talking, laughing in front of the warehouse, but there was no
4 Q. You said that you didn't know who were the shoulder -- the
5 soldiers who fired in the prisoners because you were unable to see that.
6 A. Well, I didn't see them, so I can't identify anyone. I can't
7 point to a person and say, Well, this person shot.
8 Q. Thank you. At one point you said that you heard a noise of a
9 heavy machinery on the following day?
10 A. Yes, the 14th. I wouldn't be able to tell you the time of the day
11 because I didn't go out. Or rather, once I went out, I never went back.
12 So I don't know what time of the day it was when the machinery noise was
13 produced. I couldn't see the sun.
14 Q. Could you give us some idea, was is it in the morning or in the
15 afternoon on the 14th?
16 A. Around noon. It could be that the noise started around noon.
17 Before that they said, "Is there anybody healthy, and if so, come out."
18 And we heard --
19 Q. No, no, I will interrupt you. Let us go into private session for
20 a moment because we are about to mention a name.
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session, please.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 7025-7128 redacted. Private session
17 [Open session]
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. You mentioned at some point, sir, that the brothers who you named
20 left towards Potocari from your village, and that there is -- nothing else
21 is known about them. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes, I remember that.
23 Q. Will you, please, tell us what their age was?
24 A. My brother was older than I was by four years. My neighbour was
25 only a year older than I am. And all of the others were older than they
1 were. Nine of them went to Potocari. This cousin of mine was the
2 youngest amongst them.
3 Q. When your daughter informed you, were you told that the elderly
4 people were going to Potocari?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness. We have no further questions. Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. Sorry for the interruption.
10 Who is going next? Madam Fauveau or Mr. Zivanovic?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic. We are finding out when we should
13 have a break, considering that we have been sitting since 10.30 with that
14 short interval.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will be very brief, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We will soon have a break.
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being suggested that we take the break now.
19 And can we restrict it to 20 minutes this time? 25 minutes because of the
20 redaction, yes. 25 minutes, please. Thank you.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Zivanovic.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. First, I would like to ask you to clarify something. (redacted)
4 (redacted) that you set off from Jaglici on the
5 12th of July at 20 to 1.00?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we need to redact straight away the name
8 where he comes from on line 16 on page 61, please. Or you need to delete
9 from line 15, "You said..." right up to that comma.
10 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye. Sorry, I thought that was...
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could we just go into private session for one
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
14 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Previously, I didn't ask to go
11 into private session because I believed that this -- the fact of
12 mentioning this name and time could not reveal the identity of the witness
13 because there were about 20.000 people there, as it's been said. But I
14 have nothing against us being in -- being in private session and dealing
15 with this matter.
16 Q. But what I want to speak about is the following: Yesterday in the
17 transcript, as I wrote down here on page 14, line 1, it was said that "he"
18 set off from this place that I mentioned with that larger group at 20 to
19 1.00. So all I wanted to do was to ask the witness to clarify whether
20 this was 20 to 1.00 in the afternoon or 20 to 1.00 at midnight, after
22 A. It was 20 to 1.00 in the afternoon.
23 Q. Another thing I would like to ask you to clarify. You said,
24 referring to Golic, whom you did not know before then, that he left before
25 last. So could you, please, clarify when you mean that he left one but
1 last. Was that him personally or do you mean the group of people that he
2 was leading, the group of soldiers?
3 A. I think that his group was the last to set off from Jaglici, from
4 what I could see.
5 Q. Thank you. Reading your previous statements and listening to your
6 testimony today, I got the impression that from the place where you set
7 off until -- up to the place where you were captured, you came up against
8 two ambushes; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that is correct. The first ambush was next to this place
10 called Buljim where I saw Golic. And that's where the people ran off and
11 then the second ambush was when we came up to a river I was with a
12 neighbour of mine, together with him the whole time. There was some
13 shouting that started up there under this one hill. A group of us, seven
14 or eight of us, decided to go towards the place where we could hear all
15 these people.
16 Almost it got dark on the ground, and then up there when they
17 started shouting, you didn't know what was -- who was shooting, what was
18 going on. All we know is that we were being hit by a Praga from a
19 neighbouring hill. It was like fire flies. And then we went back down
20 the slope again and there were bursts of fires and I realised that I
21 couldn't escape. So I just found this tree and I lay down next to this
22 fallen tree and I thought that they were there too. There was firing,
23 firing, firing, and when it stopped, I got up. I kept calling out them by
24 their names. None of them were there when I stood up. I saw that I
25 didn't have a -- any more -- a cap on my head. To this very day, I don't
1 know what happened to it. Sometimes there would be a burst of fire. I
2 went up there towards them. I said, Don't fire, it's our people. He
3 said, Who is it? I said my name. And he told me his name up there. Wait
4 for me there, and I went to the woods. I found that young man whom I had
5 told to wait for me. I sat down next to him. I had a back-pack. I had
6 bread. I had some meat. You have something in your back-pack. I do.
7 You want to eat. I do. And he ate. Let's go. We got up. Then you had
8 to step over dead bodies.
9 Then you could hear from down there shouts, "Help, brothers."
10 Five or six people went down there. There were bursts of fire. Nobody
11 was coming back from down there, and we were with those wounded all night.
12 There were wounded. There were dead. They said that the wounded had to
13 be taken up to some hill, to some Kamenica. And then in the morning when
14 I got out in into the hill, I don't know where these Kamenicas were. I
15 noticed one of my people from the neighbouring village, a man, he was
16 lining people up. I came up past them. They stayed on my left side. And
17 these were people from the neighbouring village, practically my
18 neighbours. They said, Let's go down this hill to Suceska. We passed
19 some 500 metres from there and we found a large group of people. The male
20 nurse was there. He was dressing people's wounds. There were many people
21 from my village; quite a lot of them. I felt it was a little bit easier
22 because I could see my neighbours were there.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... I understand --
24 yes, everyone.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, I hate to stop you because I know that you
3 have a story to tell. However, if we continue like this you are going to
4 be here for days at length. The question was a very simple one. I mean
5 Mr. Zivanovic asked you whether there were two ambushes during the time
6 you left from the place where you set off until the place where you were
7 captured. And your answer should have been, Yes, there were two or there
8 was one or there were more than two and that's it. We didn't -- we didn't
9 really need all this information. If you continue like this, you are
10 going to be here today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, next week. I
11 mean, we are trying to do our best to let you go home the earliest
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I did say that there
14 were two ambushes from Jaglici to the place where I was captured.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you. What I wanted to ask you now is, in both those
17 ambushes there were many killed and wounded from the group that you were
18 moving in?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: One other thing. I think today we will be stopping
21 a little bit earlier. There has just been an announcement that the
22 weather is getting worse and we are letting everyone go home as soon as
23 possible. So I think we will stop at 1.30, around 1.30 or thereabouts,
24 depending on where we stand at the time. Everyone should be leaving here
25 by 2.00.
1 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic. Sorry for interrupting.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I read the statement that you gave to the authorities of Bosnia
6 and Herzegovina, that is the state commission for gathering information
7 about war crimes. This was on the 21st of September, 1995. In the
8 statement, I'm going to read just one sentence that has to do with victims
9 in the second ambush. This is at Bratunacka Kamenica where you say, "It
10 seems to me that there were 500 corpses and there were countless wounded.
11 We had to walk over the bodies." Do you recall that statement?
12 A. Yes, I remember that very well. You couldn't count anybody --
13 nobody could count them that night, not the dead nor the wounded. They
14 were lying there like logs.
15 Q. And was the first -- this situation the same with the first
17 A. There were fewer dead and wounded there. I saw fewer dead and
18 wounded there.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
20 further questions.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
22 Who is next? Mr. Meek.
23 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President. We have no questions for
24 this witness.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Meek.
1 Who is next? Madam Fauveau.
2 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Did you join the ABiH army in 1992?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You were demobilised in 1996?
6 A. [French on English channel]
7 Q. When you were in Srebrenica before the fall of the enclave, [No
9 THE FRENCH INTERPRETER: Would Madam Fauveau kindly repeat the
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, could you kindly repeat the question,
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Sir, you have already answered, but for the transcript, I'm asked
15 to ask the question again. Can we say that when you were in the
16 Srebrenica enclave, before the fall of the enclave, you were under the
17 command of Zulfo Tursunovic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Sir, do you know where the headquarters of the unit of which Zulfo
20 Tursunovic was a commander? Do you know where that headquarters was?
21 A. What -- what headquarters?
22 Q. Do you know where was the seat, the headquarters of the unit of
23 which Zulfo Tursunovic was a commander?
24 A. The seat, his seat was in the hill.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, let's cut this short. Are you
1 telling us that there was no headquarters? No headquarters?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What headquarters? I don't know.
3 That's where the command was. There was some kind of kitchen there where
4 they were cooking for the soldiers, for the refugees who had fled from
5 Vlasenica, Bratunac, Rogatica. They didn't manage to sow anything, so
6 they had to feed them and there was some sort of kitchen there and a seat.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And where was this building?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Suceska, in the hills, that's
9 where the kitchen was.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Fauveau.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Is it right to say that the 11th of July 1995 you received an
13 information through a messenger that Srebrenica had fallen and that the
14 women and children as well as the elderly were to go to Potocari while the
15 others were to go to the forest?
16 A. Yes, I was informed, and I think I said that too.
17 Q. This information, you got it from your commander Zulfo Tursunovic
18 and he told you to establish a corridor towards Tuzla?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you left to Jaglici, is it right to say that the men
21 separated from their families at Ravni Gore?
22 A. Ravne Njive, not Ravne Gore. It's above the village of Ravne
24 Q. Thank you very much for this precision. My mistake.
25 Is it right that when you left to Jaglici on the 11th of July,
1 1995 you had a rifle with you?
2 A. Yes, I had my hunting rifle. I was a hunter.
3 Q. But you were wearing civilian clothes, right?
4 A. [No interpretation]
5 Q. Is it correct that before the fall of the Srebrenica enclave --
6 thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, one moment. Page 68, please,
8 lines 6. Now, in various instances where Zulfo Tursunovic's -- Zulfo
9 Tursunovic was mentioned by name, we don't have it in the transcript. So
10 that's for the record. But then the only place where supposedly he is
11 mentioned in line 6 of page 68 he is wrongly mentioned as Zulfo Salilovic,
12 when in actual fact Madam Fauveau clearly stated Zulfo Tursunovic. So
13 that is to be corrected. And the same occurs on line --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zulfo Salilovic was in the warehouse
15 where I was for the execution. (redacted).
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We were talking of Zulfo Tursunovic here and on line
17 24 it is the same, in other words, Zulfo Salilovic has been substituted by
18 Zulfo Tursunovic. Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: We are in open session. I think the most recent
20 remark that was made by the witness probably needs to be redacted. I know
21 the Court's aware of that.
22 JUDGE KWON: His answer was not interpreted when Madam Fauveau
23 asked whether he was wearing civilian clothes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In the meantime, we need to redact 20 and 21,
25 please, of page 69. The last two words of line 21. That would suffice.
1 Yes. And I thank Judge Kwon for drawing our attention that the witness
2 has still got to answer the question.
3 Madam Fauveau, I suggest that you repeat your question and then we
4 will ask the witness to answer. Thank you.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, once again, I have to repeat my question. Is it correct
7 that you were wearing civilian clothes when you left to Jaglici?
8 A. Civilian clothing. I didn't have any military clothing. Maybe 10
9 per cent just had the military uniforms. Because we were almost all of us
10 in civilian clothes, only a small number wore military uniforms.
11 Q. Sir, you just answered my following question, so I have no further
12 questions for this witness. Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau. Who is next?
14 Mr. Bourgon.
15 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. We have no questions for
16 the witness.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Josse? Mr. Krgovic?
18 MR. JOSSE: Likewise.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Haynes?
20 MR. HAYNES: Nor us, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Is there re-examination, Mr. Vanderpuye?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, there is not, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have any further questions for you, sir,
24 which means that your testimony has come to an end. I wish to thank you
25 for having come over to give evidence. And on behalf of the Tribunal, I
1 wish you a safe journey back home.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you for making
3 it possible to learn the truth about the genocide of Bosniaks in protected
4 Srebrenica, and everyone should visit the cemetery in Potocari. That is
5 the key evidence. Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You can escort the witness out of the
8 Now, yesterday's witness.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make an assessment of how much time we require
11 to conclude the cross-examination.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe 15 minutes, Mr. President,
13 for us.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And after you, who is left? Who wishes to
15 cross-examine yesterday's witness?
16 MR. HAYNES: Everyone is being very shy --
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We will not have any questions.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Nikolic?
19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We wouldn't have any questions for
20 this witness, Your Honour.
21 MR. MEEK: Nor we, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, I think is finished. And Mr. Josse.
23 MR. JOSSE: We've had our go.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's finish with this witness. The only problem
25 is I don't know if he will be able --
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Would you like to deal with the tender issue
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We can do the tendering now.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. I think the exhibits to tender have been
5 disclosed to the Defence, yes. And...
6 JUDGE AGIUS: You have the list. Are there any objections on the
7 part of the Defence teams to the admission of any of these documents?
8 None. So they are so admitted.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: First one will remain under seal. Now, the Defence
11 teams, Mr. Stojanovic, you made use of some documents.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since most of the
13 documents that we used have already been tendered, we would just like to
14 propose the footage, the video footage marked as 4D76 and that is video
15 footage V002024, and if possible, we would like to have that segment to be
16 admitted under seal for reasons that we have already stated and explained.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it needs to be under seal because the
18 segment that you showed is in itself harmless. So I think it -- that
19 segment which has already been identified first in the transcript will
20 go -- do you have any objections, Mr. Vanderpuye?
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, I don't have an objection. I just wonder if
22 the segment that's indicated here looks as though it's 32.23 through
23 32.49, if that's -- because I remember we froze the image at some point.
24 I just wanted to make sure that they corresponded with one another. Is
25 that the case?
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. All right. So I think it is so
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's fine.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: And we will do the checking.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: If it shows that witness, then obviously that part
8 won't show up.
9 Yes, I see Mr. McCloskey standing.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have another witness that is also available
11 after this one, if the Court wants to consider that.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we will hear that witness today.
13 So good afternoon to you, Witness. We are trying to finish with
14 your testimony today. Madam Fauveau will cross-examine you and then I
15 think you are free to go.
16 Madam Fauveau.
17 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-111 [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, is it right that when you were in Zepa and
21 when you heard that the civils -- civilians were to be evacuated, this is
22 when you decided to go towards the mountains?
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think there is something wrong. I mean
25 it's -- his microphone is on. Wasn't it on before? All right. Go ahead.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just learned that the wounded were
2 to go first. They would be the first to be evacuated. I learned that in
3 the hospital where I was. That morning I went to the mountain.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And in the mountains where you left, were people who belonged to
6 the Bosnia-Herzegovina army; is that right?
7 A. I didn't see them. I wasn't with them. There were some women,
8 men, and less than a couple of them had any rifles. Those were people
9 with their families. I stay there for a while. I ate with this friend of
10 mine who was there, and then we went elsewhere.
11 Q. Sir, yesterday you said, it's on the page -- on page 30 of the
12 transcript, "[In English] I decided with my colleague who was with me in
13 the room, I decided to go to mountain where the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
15 A. The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was up there, however, when I
16 reached the mountain, I didn't see any army. Most likely they were in the
17 forest and all over the mountain. It's a huge mountain.
18 Q. And when you heard that a group of wounded had been evacuated, you
19 came back to Zepa; is that right?
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. It is correct that when you arrived in Zepa you had no ID on you?
22 A. I didn't.
23 Q. And when you were in Srebrenica, before the fall of the enclave,
24 you were a member of the 282nd Brigade of the BiH army?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. But you never wore a uniform?
2 A. Never.
3 Q. And many members of the BiH army actually wore civilian clothes?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we move into
6 private session for the following question, please?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's move to private session for a short
9 [Private session]
11 Page 7146 redacted. Private session
1 [Open session]
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Sir, yesterday, my colleague asked you the question, I don't know
4 whether you remember, but whether the Red Cross had observed the
5 evacuation of civilians. And to that you answered that you did not
6 remember. Do you remember having said that? This is a statement that is
7 in the transcript on page 84.
8 A. I don't remember saying that. The Red Cross was only within the
9 UNPROFOR compound. I didn't see them go to the civilians who were
11 Q. Sir, my colleague, yesterday, showed you your statement in the
12 Krstic case that was April of the year 2000. And my colleague, I'm not
13 going to quote you again here, but he showed you the question which was
14 asked to you, and your answer in which you said that the Red Cross
15 actually watched over civilians being evacuated. So, my question is, do
16 you remember having testified in the Krstic case?
17 A. I don't remember stating that.
18 Q. For the transcript, it's Krstic case...
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it -- I understand what you mean, Ms. Fauveau
20 because the transcript as it is might give the indication that the witness
21 doesn't remember that he testified in the Krstic case, which I don't think
22 is what he said. He is obviously referring to the detail from his alleged
23 testimony that he doesn't remember.
24 Is that correct, Witness?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Sir, will you allow me to say that, since you don't remember what
3 you said in the year 2000 in the Krstic case, that you might not remember
4 accurately the events of 1995 and that you might have forgotten that the
5 Red Cross was actually watching over civilians being evacuated or the
7 A. I can't tell you this. This was not far away from the UNPROFOR
8 compound where I was and where the Red Cross was. Perhaps 200 to 300
9 metres, I'm not quite sure, and one could see the people from the UNPROFOR
10 base, because there was a clear view of the road and the evacuation. One
11 could see the buses. I don't know what the role of the Red Cross was
12 though, whether they observed the evacuation, why they had come there.
13 Perhaps they had come there just to register us. I don't know.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we move to closed session,
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's do that; let's move --
17 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
24 Q. When you were waiting to be evacuated from Zepa, you spent two
25 nights outside the UNPROFOR bases in a house; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who was with you in that house?
3 A. Just the wounded.
4 Q. Could you freely enter and exit the house?
5 A. You mean in the evening or during the day?
6 Q. At any time.
7 A. Not at night. We were not allowed. During the day, yes, we were
8 moving about. At night there were UNPROFOR guards. There was an armoured
9 vehicle there, I don't know which one, in front of our entrance on the
10 road. The vehicle was parked there the whole night.
11 Q. Yesterday you mentioned the commander of the brigade Avdo. Is it
12 correct that when you reached the territory under the control of the
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina government, that Avdo was seen after the fall of
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. This is calling for speculation on
16 this witness. There is no foundation.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- I think --
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the question needs to be rephrased. I mean,
20 we can understand Mr. McCloskey's objection. However, it's a legitimate
21 question that needs to be rephrased and basically I'm going rephrase it
23 Witness, when you reached the BiH territory, did you yourself see
24 Avdo, the Avdo that you mentioned yesterday, after the fall of Zepa, or
25 are you aware of anybody else seeing Avdo alive at that time?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see him. When the wounded
2 were evacuated, he remained within the UNPROFOR compound and I don't know
3 anything about his fate following that.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Madam Fauveau.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Exhibit
6 2D57, page 4. I would like to -- that this document be not -- not be
8 THE FRENCH INTERPRETER: Correction, not be put on the screen.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Right, not broadcast --
10 THE FRENCH INTERPRETER: Broadcast.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It needs to be put on the screen, but it must not be
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Sir, at the end of the second paragraph you said, and this is the
15 statement you made to the Prosecutor's office dated November 26th,
16 1998, "[In English] I heard later on the -- free territory that some
17 prisoners detained in Batkovic prison camp near Bijeljina had seen Avdo
18 being detained there. As far as I know, no one ever saw him since the war
19 is over and he is presumed dead."
20 [Interpretation] Does this bring back any memories?
21 A. I don't remember that.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Object to the form of these questions unless
23 the -- Madam Fauveau will put her case to the witness. Is she suggesting
24 that Avdo Palic is alive, and if so, I think she should put their case to
25 the witness, otherwise, what is the relevance of this gossip?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Fully agreed. Yes, Madam Fauveau, I think you need
2 to bring your questions -- or realign your questions to what Mr. McCloskey
3 has just objected to.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to answer to
5 Mr. McCloskey, I'm not suggesting Avdo Palic is alive and that's not
6 actually what is suggested in what I just read out. I am just suggesting
7 that he might have been seen there after and this is what is said in the
8 witness's statement.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think he's given you an answer and I don't
10 think that's going to change. So let's proceed to the next subject or
11 further questions that you might have.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Sir, when you were -- when you were in Srebrenica, when you were
14 part of the 282nd Brigade, can you tell me where this brigade was
16 A. The headquarters was in the hotel Domavia.
17 Q. And was this hotel located in the centre of Srebrenica? Is that
19 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more time do you require?
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I just have one other question, Your
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we all know where the hotel Domavia is and
23 you can proceed to the next question.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is the unit you were part of, and here I'm talking about your
1 particular unit, not the brigade but the smaller unit, had there -- had
2 this unit a place where it would meet to discuss the military situation
3 and receive orders?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And can you tell me where this particular place was located?
6 A. I wouldn't be able to say that. I don't want to say that.
7 Q. Can we move into private session, Your Honour?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move into private session.
9 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination, Mr. McCloskey?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, Mr. Meek.
21 MR. MEEK: Just a housekeeping matter, Judge. I believe page 82,
22 starting at line 2, with Mr. McCloskey's objection, which ended on line 5,
23 he says "otherwise what is the relevance of this gossip," and the
24 transcript said, "what is the basis for this gossip." I frankly agree
25 with him that gossip shouldn't be around, but...
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you too, so I think that's a point.
2 Thank you for the point that you have made.
3 Witness, we don't have any further questions for you which means
4 you are free to go. I wish to thank you on behalf of the Tribunal for
5 having come over to give testimony in this case and I wish you a safe
6 journey back home.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have just one question
8 if I may.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judges, Your Honours, the Defence
11 counsel who cross-examined me yesterday, who was the first to
12 cross-examine me yesterday, there's something that's unclear to me about
13 it. Since I have the status of a protected witness here, I don't know
14 whether my name first and last name, the name of my father, may be
15 revealed here publicly.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to trouble yourself with this. It
17 was not revealed publicly, and none of the information that is relevant to
18 you, your identity or your family's identity were dealt with in open
19 session. Everything was in private session. So you don't need to worry
20 about that.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday, the gentleman who was the
22 first to cross-examine me, yesterday, stated my first and last name and my
23 father's name publicly. This is why I put this question.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: It was not in public, it was in private session, if
25 at all -- if the names were mentioned. But it was in private session. So
1 it's not public.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We stand adjourned until tomorrow.
4 Shall we do them now or tomorrow?
5 Prosecution lists of exhibits has been circulated. Are there any
6 objections on the part of any of the Defence teams? We hear none. So
7 they are all admitted. The ones that are indicated to be preserved under
8 seal will be kept under seal. I understand that the Borovcanin Defence
9 team wishes to tender one document, and that's 4D73. Is that correct?
10 Mr. Lazarevic.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: That's right, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Is there any objection on the part of
13 the Prosecution.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President, but Ms. Stewart tells me that
15 document 1516 was -- 1563 was already admitted through another witness, so
16 that shouldn't be on the list.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You can deal with that with our Registrar,
18 and she will take care of that. So 4D73, which is not opposed, objected
19 to by the Prosecution will also be admitted. I take it that this has been
20 translated into English, hasn't it?
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: It is, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So this is admitted. We stand
23 adjourned. Yes --
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one point. I think everyone knows, we have
25 two more intercept operators that we obviously would like to get done
1 tomorrow. I think we should be able to do that as well, but I hope
2 Holland can handle a little snow.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hope that.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I have a -- one issue. I believe
5 that these 4D73 should be under seal because the witness indicated just
6 that --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you for pointing that out. And
8 that will be under seal.
9 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I just saw my name
11 on the transcript this morning. I don't know if you had confirmation yet
12 about your query. I checked that witness for whom delayed disclosure was
13 ordered. The disclosure was made in hard copy last November, and if
14 anybody didn't get it, they can tell me, but I haven't heard that. And
15 the date we were thinking of, and I will discuss this with my colleagues,
16 for that particular witness is the 26th of February, not the 27th.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Just need a confirmation that everyone has received
18 a copy of the witness statement in November as stated. That's all.
19 Because we want to make sure that the 30-day time period is strictly
21 So we stand adjourned. And I suggest -- recommend that you take
22 the advice that everyone has been given to go home the earliest, because
23 the storm is bound to get worse.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day of
1 February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.