1 Friday, 23 February 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning. Madam Registrar, could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. All the accused are here. Same
10 goes for the Defence teams. Everyone seems to be present. Prosecution is
11 Mr. Thayer and Mr. Nicholls that I can see.
12 Let's go into private session for a short while, please.
13 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a motion from the Prosecution for
6 authorisation to reply, which we will be considering. We will be handing
7 down an oral decision early next week. But it will be an oral decision,
8 not a written one. I just wanted to alert you to that.
9 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning Your Honour, and counsel. I just
11 wanted to say that Mr. McCloskey apologises for not being able to be here
12 this morning. He will be coming in later. He had some work to do.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. It's good to hear that.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I welcome you on behalf of my colleagues and myself.
18 We are going to proceed with your testimony. We will try to finish
19 today, but I don't promise you that. Mr. Bourgon, you were in possession
20 of the floor when we adjourned yesterday.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-101 [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon: [Continued]
1 Q. Good morning, Witness.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. My first question this morning, Witness, is very simple. I would
4 just like to know the date on which you were relocated?
5 A. I think it was the 10th of October.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Of which year?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2006.
8 MR. BOURGON:
9 Q. Thank you. Now, we have information, Witness, concerning the fact
10 that you are a regular -- person who regularly watches the proceedings of
11 this Tribunal from your house (redacted). Can you confirm this?
12 A. You see, any ordinary citizen of the former Yugoslavia would be
13 curious. They are all following the proceedings. B92 for instance
14 regularly broadcast all the proceedings, and any normal person would show
15 an interest in that.
16 Q. My question, Witness, is quite straightforward. And I take it
17 that you consider yourself as a normal person and that you have been
18 watching proceedings from this Tribunal. Is that correct?
19 A. Not only do I consider myself normal, there are all others who
20 consider me normal.
21 Q. My next question --
22 A. I have a television set, and of course.
23 Q. And if I can just ask you to, for the benefit of the Trial
24 Chamber, how many hours a day are you listening to these proceedings or
25 have you listened to the proceedings of this Tribunal on TV?
1 A. Whenever I had time to spare and did not have any work
2 obligations, because you ought to know that I am an active person still,
3 I listen to the proceedings. But I do not set aside time specifically for
4 that. In other words, whenever I had time, I review reports or I just
5 watch short clips at any time during the day that I'm free.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Before going on to my next question, I would
7 just like to make a correction in yesterday's transcript. I spoke with my
8 colleague already about this correction. It appears that it was made, but
9 in the -- I do not have the updated version and would I like the witness
10 to confirm this correction.
11 Witness, I will read you a quote of what you said yesterday and
12 simply ask you for a correction. Yesterday, that was on page 15, lines 20
13 to 25, you said the following: "I only knew Drago, or Dragan, Nikolic. I
14 believe his name is Dragan Nikolic. I knew him because he spent a great
15 deal of time in the barracks, and I would come across him just as anyone
16 else. I knew him personally as a decent person, a pedantic person. He
17 was rated as an officer," and this is where we get to the part I would
18 like to correct, because in yesterday's transcript it says, "As an officer
19 who was arrogant or taxing on anyone."
20 I would simply like you to confirm that what the transcript should
21 read, in accordance with your answer from yesterday, is that, "He was
22 rated as an officer who was not arrogant, nor taxing on anyone." Can you
23 confirm this?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to say "ne" or "da". I couldn't hear. I
25 was watching him. Oh, I see.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. The microphones were
2 not on. Precisely. As you put it; a fine man. And this wasn't just my
3 opinion, but the opinion of all the others in the barracks. He was a
4 communicative person, an affable person who did not try to be to be
5 effusive in showing that he is an officer. You know what I'm trying to
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bourgon, I can confirm it is so updated.
8 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Your Honour. I will move on to my
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And I thank you, Judge Kwon. Go ahead.
11 MR. BOURGON:
12 Q. Thank you, Witness. I will move on to my next question which
13 relates to this one. On the basis of your statement, which you provided
14 to the Prosecution in November of 2005, I would like you to confirm that
15 in July of 1995 you did not know the name Drago Nikolic. The name. Is
16 that correct?
17 A. Perhaps there was confusion during interpretation or a play of
18 words. I said that I wasn't sure whether he was Drago or Dragan, and this
19 might have been interpreted as if I didn't, in fact, know the man. But I
20 cannot claim not to have known him since I've spent a certain period of
21 time together with him in the barracks. This might have been an error in
23 Q. Thank you, Witness. I will quote you from your statement of
24 November 2005, and that is at paragraph 5. And if need be, I can show it
25 to you on the screen where you say in this statement, "At the time, he was
1 the senior security officer of the Zvornik Brigade, but I did not know his
3 Which is true today, that you might have remembered or that you
4 did not know his name? Is it the statement or what you are saying today
5 that is the truth?
6 A. It wouldn't be normal for me not to know the man. As I said, it
7 may have been due to interpretation that it came across this way, because
8 I only said that I wasn't sure whether his name was Dragan or Drago.
9 Q. Thank you. I'll leave it at that because I will ask anyway for
10 the -- your statement to be on the record for the sake of confirming
11 whether what you are saying today is the right version.
12 I move to my next question. You said yesterday, and this is on
13 the -- at page 49 of the transcript at lines 1 to 16, and I will not quote
14 but say basically the substance. You confirmed that you asked and were
15 granted a two to three days leave after the Orahovac events in order to
16 leave Zvornik and take some rest. Can you confirm that this morning?
17 A. Yes. I asked that we go somewhere where there are no uniformed
18 persons, no soldiers, in order to find some psychological rest, but then
19 the chief -- there, again, I wanted to refer to Pantic, him or the person
20 substituting for him, namely Miso, proved to be quite obliging, which was
21 something of a rarity at the time in the barracks, because I was allowed
22 to spend nights at home with my wife and children. I wasn't compelled to
23 sleep in the barracks which was the norm at the time.
24 So he was lenient in that respect. He allowed me to spend the
25 night in the barracks and then the following morning I was supposed to
1 report to the barracks before the actual waking time, and at that point I
2 was granted a few days' leave.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness. That's the -- the last part of your question
4 [sic] is actually what I was looking for. And please try to answer the
5 question that I ask, just so that we can move along more quickly. Again,
6 I never want to interrupt you, but it goes better if you try to answer the
7 question that was asked.
8 MR. BOURGON: May I have 3D80 on the e-court, please.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this the attendance sheet?
10 MR. BOURGON: No, that's the statement.
11 Q. Witness, it is being brought to my attention that maybe the
12 English translation of your last answer is not exactly what you said.
13 Now, if you look -- well, you cannot read English, so I would -- it says
14 here in the transcript, "And at that point I was granted a few days'
15 leave." Now, what I'm looking for is whether you were -- you asked for
16 three days' leave after the Orahovac events and were granted those days.
17 Is that the situation?
18 A. You see, in the aftermath of every difficult situation at the
19 front-line, I always asked for a few days off a to pull myself together,
20 and that was the case again this time. However, further developments
21 proved to be so grievous and dark that I was one of the rare cases who
22 could be granted something like that because this person was a neighbour
23 of mine. And he allowed me to spend the nights at home to spend time with
24 my sons, and this allowed me to rest psychologically. So this is what
25 they did. This is how obliging they were.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry to interrupt. I was told that in the
3 answer which is being corrected now that there is another error. What the
4 witness said was that -- not at that point I was granted a few days'
5 leave, but that I was granted leave that would take place at a point when
6 it was possible or when I could take leave. So what he said was he was
7 granted in principle that he could take leave but not at that point, is
8 what I've been told.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You have -- Witness. Witness. Has this
10 been, this conversation, this exchange, has it been translated to you in
11 your own language?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I can't -- I can't claim to be an expert in --
14 in Serbo-Croat language, but I understand enough to know that "ne" means
15 no, and "da" means yes. What I want to know -- Witness, look at me,
16 please. Mr. Nicholls has just made a statement. Was that statement
17 translated to you in your own language?
18 A. You mean here?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. A minute ago.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise: We heard him say
22 yes. Could the witness come closer to the microphones.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but this "yes" now --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you come closer to the microphones, please.
1 Mr. Nicholls, there seems to be a confusion here. If you can repeat, you
2 can read from the transcript itself.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I think perhaps asking the question again. If
4 Mr. Bourgon asks his question again, it might be the cleanest way to...
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon --
6 MR. BOURGON: I completely agree, Mr. President. I will even
7 would do something better.
8 Q. Witness, were you working the next two days after the Orahovac
10 A. I was loud and clear a moment ago. I asked them to give me some
11 time off for rest. However, they were not able to give me these two or
12 three days, instead they allowed me this exception to spend the nights at
13 home; whereas, the obligation of all the other soldiers was to spend
14 nights in the barracks. Since I wasn't able to be granted days off, they
15 exceptionally allowed me to spend nights at home. This was the favour
16 they did to me, to allow me to rest psychologically at home, at least
18 Therefore, at that point, they were not able to give me a couple
19 of days off because the situation in the field was extraordinary, and this
20 is what I said a moment ago.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'll move on to my next question. Yesterday,
22 I referred to information that I have which comes from the chief of
23 logistics. You mentioned a name yesterday. And according to what I
24 mentioned to you or what comes from him, the Z Brigade command did not
25 have juices in 1995. Now, this was at page 85 of the transcripts at
1 lines 19 to 25, and my question to you this morning is very simple: Are
2 you saying today that this information is wrong and that you saw juices or
3 is it that you did not see what was in the boxes in your truck?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he answered this very clearly yesterday. He
5 told you where the juices probably came from, and I think he was very
6 poignant in his answer yesterday. I don't think we need to go through
7 this again.
8 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I will move to my next but I feel it
9 is important.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but he answered it yesterday. He has told you
11 respective of what Sreten Milosevic may tell us. According to him, the
12 position was as he said it yesterday.
13 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Witness, in the -- according to the same person, we have
15 information that in the command kitchen, which was the only kitchen at the
16 Zvornik Brigade command, they never made any doughnuts or pastries. My
17 question is: Are you saying this information is incorrect or is it that
18 you never saw what was put in your truck?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Objection to the form of the question. Because
21 that information could be correct, and he could have seen what was put in
22 his truck. That's a completely false choice.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he can answer.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, answer the question, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I reply?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I will answer what I've already
4 said, word by word. I confirm my previous statement word for word.
5 Juices outside of the combat actions for the needs of the command and the
6 officers and other clerks in the command were brought by me from Vitinka
7 regularly. A contingent, a full van of crates of juices and mineral
8 water, and this was left in the warehouse and used as needed.
9 In the kitchen, sir, it's a modern kitchen, extremely
10 well-equipped kitchen in which I had the privilege sometimes to eat better
11 food and to socialise with the bakers, the officers, the heads of the
12 kitchen, and I know well what can be made there.
13 Secondly, many things were done in the state bakery, and they
14 would be brought to the kitchen. They had the hygienic conditions to do
15 that; and then from the kitchen and as for cookies and other sweet things,
16 I said already that from private shops of -- then people -- the command
17 paid for those Vitinka juices. I'm convinced I know that one part was
18 paid for and one was donated, a part was donated by Vitinka, and I said
19 that before.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness. I now move to my next topic.
21 MR. BOURGON: It is necessary for this purpose, Mr. President, to
22 go into private session, please.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bourgon, you asked for his statement to be
25 brought in e-court. Do you have something to raise?
1 MR. BOURGON: No longer, Your Honour, because that was previously
2 to the fact of that the "I had obtained some leave" and this changed my
3 line of questioning.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Perhaps we can remove it now from the
5 monitor, just in case it shows up during the broadcast.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 7647-7654 redacted. Private session
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.
24 MR. BOURGON:
25 Q. You said, yesterday, I quote from page 45, lines 18 to 20, that
1 you told the hospital staff and the doctor that you found the kid on a
2 forest trail, somewhere around Srebrenica. And in your statement, which
3 was from November 2005, you said that you found the kid on the road.
4 My question is: Whichever is true, the road or the forest trail,
5 you will agree with me that you did not tell the truth to the doctor and
6 the hospital staff. Is that correct?
7 A. First of all, you mentioned Srebrenica. Is that correct? Yes.
8 Yes, you mentioned Srebrenica. I had the fortunate option of not going to
9 Srebrenica. I went to all the fronts throughout Bosnia, but I did not go
10 to Srebrenica. You mentioned Srebrenica. Please don't. That child, I
11 said I didn't dare, because of the evil people, sir. I emphasise that.
12 Because of my own protection, I said I found the child by the road. I was
13 not on a forest trail. I was going along the asphalt and the asphalt road
14 was close to the execution site. It was a normal road, not a forest
15 trail. I don't know what you called it.
16 I said, because I was afraid for a long time, and I didn't -- my
17 brother knew, my sister-in-law knew, my close ones knew, and all the
18 participants up there, participants in the event up there knew who took
19 the child away. It's been entered, right, in the hospital, the
20 information that it's a child from an execution site, from a place of
21 execution, is not there.
22 Even I picked up a man, one or two days later on the road, on the
23 asphalt, not knowing who or what he was, assuming, and I stopped and I
24 asked this wounded man. I asked him who he was, what he was. He said he
25 was from Srebrenica, and he was asking me --
1 Q. Witness, we are getting completely away -- Mr. President, can we
2 ask the Witness to please confine his answers to the questions that I ask,
3 or else we will be here for a long time?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's partly true, but he has answered your
5 question at the end of the day.
6 JUDGE KWON: But, Mr. Witness, yesterday you said to Mr. Bourgon
7 that you had told them, the hospital people or others, that you had come
8 across the child on a forest trail, somewhere around Srebrenica. Was it a
9 mistake on your part?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I never said anything like
11 that in my life. I don't think that the Prosecution has that either.
12 That is a mistake. It's impossible. I'm sorry that I am laughing, but --
13 but as I said, I had the fortune of not being issued with travel orders to
14 have to take anyone, even the wounded. So I had no contact at all with
16 JUDGE KWON: So you must understand that the Defence counsel has
17 to clarify that, because the transcript says so.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Bourgon.
19 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Judge.
20 Q. Witness, my -- to finish with this topic concerning what you said
21 to the hospital staff and the doctor, my question to you earlier on was
22 that you did not tell them the truth of where you found the kid. Is that
23 correct? Not looking for the reason why, I'm just asking why?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: He's answered that question. He's told you already.
25 Yes, he didn't -- he wouldn't dare.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, please, please.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Witness.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I said what I said. The reason
4 why I said that I picked him up on the road and not at the execution site
5 is for the welfare of the child, too. Because they would have reported,
6 those evil people, that nurse, they would have told someone from the
7 military structures that the child was brought from there, and they would
8 have come to get him; and then he would have ended up the way it was
9 meant, that he ends up, sir.
10 I didn't -- I did it for the welfare of the child, afraid in the
11 hospital. There is no institution in the world or a profession in the
12 world without evil people, and for the sake of the child I said that.
13 Everybody knows Milosevic. When Dragan knows, then anybody, if they knew,
14 then everyone knew that I took the child where I took him.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. Let me move to my next topic. And in order
16 to ask you my next question, I need you to confirm a few of the things
17 that you said yesterday during your examination-in-chief. And yesterday
18 at page 36, lines 15 to 20, you said that you took the kid from the truck
19 where he had been placed by some soldier and you placed him in your van.
20 I'm talking at the site. Is that what you said yesterday?
21 A. No, sir. I wasn't interpreted well or perhaps I wasn't understood
22 well. Let me repeat this word for word. They tried to place the child on
23 the truck, but the child was convulsing, shrieking. The child may have
24 been in a state of shock. I tried to prevent him from going into these
25 convulsions. They were trying to place him on the truck; and as they were
1 trying to put him on, I said, "Please let me take him in my van." I
2 offered to take the child. Therefore, the child was never on the truck.
3 I didn't say that.
4 Q. The reason I ask this question is because the information you
5 provided yesterday said that you took the child from the truck, and this
6 is different from your statement. That is why I need to get your answer
7 today. What I will now --
8 A. No. No, no. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, that's not what I said. I
9 remember quite well.
10 Q. I will --
11 A. If --
12 Q. -- move to my next question, if you will allow me. Can you
13 confirm that after placing the Muslim boy, you drove into the direction of
14 the Orahovac school at which time you were alone in the kid with the van
15 [sic]? Is this your testimony?
16 A. Yes, sir. I took the child on the orders, right, to leave him
17 down there so that the next batch would finish him off. And on my own
18 initiative, I decided to take him to the barracks in Karakaj. As I was
19 approaching the barracks, I decided, and I did what I told you, and I took
20 him to Zvornik. There was no one with me.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. That's all I wanted to know. Were you alone
22 in the van with the kid, and is this your testimony and you have just
23 confirmed this.
24 I move to my next question. It was your testimony yesterday at
25 page 37, lines 5 to 8, that you did not stop by the school in Orahovac and
1 I quote, "Because I knew I could not leave him there." Is that correct,
2 yes or no?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, I refer also to your testimony yesterday at page 37, lines 14
5 to 17, where in saying that you -- you testified about your decision is
6 not to take him to the Zvornik Brigade first aid station because in your
7 own words, "If I leave him there in the military facility, I need to
8 explain to everyone how I came across this child." Is this your testimony
9 also today?
10 A. Yes, certainly. And for another reason. There they were not in a
11 position to stitch him up. It was just a garrison clinic that could only
12 provide some medical interventions.
13 Q. But yesterday you did not say that it was because they could not
14 only -- they did not have the proper medical facilities. You said it was
15 because I would need to explain it to everyone. Is that what you said
17 A. Certainly. Certainly, yes.
18 Q. I asked you this question --
19 A. I'm sorry. And I was also afraid that the child would be taken
20 back from there. I believe I stressed that as well.
21 Q. Well, that's why I have my next point, because in your statement
22 in 2005, at paragraph 23, you mention, "I was very afraid that although
23 they might give him medical treatment in the beginning, he would then be
24 taken for execution along with other prisoners." Do you confirm what you
25 said in your statement today?
1 A. That's what I said many times, sir, many times over. They would
2 have been taken away, because there were other prisoners there, as I said,
3 extremists who were interrogated, whether -- the person who would kill a
4 child would definitely pick him up from the barracks.
5 Q. Thank you, Witness. At this stage I will share with you some
6 information that I have, and then propose to you some -- or make some
7 propositions to you in regards to your testimony.
8 First, I would like to refer to information coming from Sreten
9 Milosevic, which was provided to us by the Prosecution, and that is at
10 the -- an interview which was conducted by the Prosecution.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Again, Your Honour, just for the record, form of
13 the question, you've previously made rulings that the -- the person asking
14 the questions should put the proposition to the witness, but it is not
15 necessary and not proper to say that it came from another witness on the
16 witness list. I think Your Honour said that yesterday.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
19 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I don't recall that the Trial Chamber
20 said this. I recall my colleague making an objection to the fact that
21 witnesses should not be compared one to the other. My case today is
22 simply that I have information, which is provided to me by the
23 Prosecution, and I need to put it to the witness to know which one is
24 true: What the Prosecution gave us as information, or what the witness is
25 saying today. It's my duty to put my case to the witness, and my
1 colleague was complaining earlier on that he was not getting documents.
2 Now we're talking about one of his own documents, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: That's completely not the issue, and I think Your
5 Honours know it. He can put his case and he can put the information
6 without --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can stop. Stop there, because we've got
8 the witness in the courtroom in any case.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We don't really see much problem or legal
11 problem in this issue. I mean strictly speaking the best way, the
12 orthodox way to go about it would be to first put the proposition to the
13 witness, see what he answers, and then you can actually again of course
14 make reference to use or source of information, which sometimes can
15 actually be asked for by -- by the Prosecution in any case.
16 So let's proceed. I mean you know that we have adopted the
17 orthodox system and the unorthodox system in these proceedings. So let's
18 not make a storm in a teacup on this. Just put the proposition to the
19 witness. You're free later on to tell him where you got it from.
20 MR. BOURGON:
21 Q. Witness, you mentioned that you drove the kid from the place where
22 you picked him up alone in your van, straight to the hospital. I put it
23 to you that this information is not true, that you stopped in the school
24 in Orahovac, and that more people were in the van with you, that this van
25 went to Zvornik command first, and then that you went to the hospital.
1 And I further put it to you, Witness, that this person was the one
2 to tell you who take the kid to the hospital and that it was not your
3 decision. What do you say to that?
4 A. Let me tell you this, sir, Your Honours: Before my departure for
5 The Hague, or rather Holland, I had these sort of offers, so to speak, to
6 say that they were with me and that things happened just the way you
7 described them. And with the reason they offered me this possibility to
8 lie, I didn't want to lie, they had reasons why they would say that. They
9 were there, right, establishment-wise they had their assignments, duties,
10 and those who gave them those assignments and duties knew why and how.
11 I only know that of all those officers and those present, that all
12 of them in 1996 at once, all those who were officers there were going to
13 Tuzla and making great deals and businesses with Tuzla residents and
14 Sarajevo residents. And everyone wondered in town how come they could be
15 wandering around free when everyone knew what the positions they held.
16 It's not true that anyone was with me.
17 Q. Witness, please let me -- let me make this easier. Do you deny
18 stopping at the Orahovac school on that night with the kid? Yes or no.
19 A. No, no, no.
20 Q. You deny that you were not --
21 A. Now, when I decided, once I decided not to leave him, of course I
22 wouldn't stop.
23 Q. Do you deny, Witness, that there were more people in the van
24 driving with you and the kid that night? Yes or no, please.
25 A. No. I said a moment ago that in the meantime some persons came up
1 to me, approached me, and asked that I say that I was with them.
2 Q. And, Witness, do you deny that the vehicle first stopped in the
3 Zvornik command before you went to the hospital to drop off these people?
4 Do you deny this information today?
5 A. Mr. Defence counsel, for my truth and story, I am prepared to bear
6 anything. To lie there where all the other liars lie for false testimony,
7 every statement I make is truthful.
8 Q. And, Witness, lastly, do you deny that it was Sreten Milosevic who
9 told you to take the kid to the hospital?
10 A. I said a moment ago that there was no one with me, sir. How could
11 he have told me that? He had to stay up there until everything was
12 finished. Do you understand? I left. Everything stayed behind.
13 Q. Thank you, Witness. Let me share with you some information that I
14 have, so to give you an opportunity to...
15 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, Mr. McCloskey is present in the
17 MR. BOURGON:
18 Q. The information I would like to share with you is that Sreten
19 Milosevic, now that is in the information he provided to the Prosecution,
20 and he said that he was in the same vehicle as the kid who was injured,
21 going to the Zvornik Brigade command. He also said -- told to the
22 Prosecution that he remembers, just like you, that the kid was asking
23 where his -- where was his daddy, and that he was crying. Sreten
24 Milosevic also described for the Prosecution the injury to the leg
25 suffered by the kid. And finally, according to Milosevic, the van first
1 went to the brigade command and then to the hospital, and that it is him
2 who told you to take the kid not to the first aid station, because it was
3 poorly equipped and could not provide good care.
4 Considering that this information -- now, I would ask you on the
5 basis of this information that I just shared with you, is it your
6 testimony today that this information is incorrect and that you stick --
7 do you stick to your story?
8 A. A moment ago I said that two more persons, who were tasked with
9 being up there, offered me to tell them -- to tell that I was with them.
10 I did not agree to that initiative. Sreten Milosevic was not with me, nor
11 could he have been, naturally speaking, because he had duties up there and
12 he was there all the time. And I left before everything was finished up
13 there, sir.
14 Q. My next question --
15 A. There is not a chance for him being with me. Let me just tell you
16 this: I would have wished or rather I wished that he had been with me,
17 because he was a fine man, and there were some people who were really fine
18 men and had to be up there. I am really sorry. I wish they could have
19 been with me.
20 Q. Witness, did you ever tell the Prosecution or any other authority
21 that you were invited to lie before the Tribunal today?
22 A. Let me tell you, I'm a lucky person. And with the Prosecutors who
23 were there, there were many questions that were asked, whether they met
24 with someone, with Milosevic and others who I knew and who I
25 communicated --
1 Q. I am sorry to interrupt you, Witness, but that is not my question.
2 A. -- directly with.
3 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I ask that the witness answer the
4 question whether he was -- at any point did he ever tell the Prosecution
5 or any other person in authority to he was invited by some people to
6 provide false testimony before this Tribunal. The question is very
7 simple, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, could you please answer it.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, never. Not the
10 Prosecution, not any other BH structure.
11 MR. BOURGON:
12 Q. Thank you, Witness.
13 MR. BOURGON: I move to my next source on the same topic and for
14 this I need to go into private session.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. Let's go into private session,
17 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session, Mr. Bourgon.
5 MR. BOURGON:
6 Q. Witness, according to the person I just mentioned to you in closed
7 session, he also says he was in the van with you that night. He
8 identified you as being the driver and being there with the kid and three
9 other persons, including Sreten Milosevic. This witness further stated --
10 MR. BOURGON: Now, Mr. President, I'll just give the reference of
11 this. This is the testimony of (redacted)
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.
14 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
6 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Now, Witness, this witness or this person -- sorry, further stated
8 that he was picked up by you further along the road and not at the school,
9 because he had started to walk back towards the command. And he also
10 confirmed that the van went first to the Zvornik Brigade command where he
11 and the other passengers stayed and you continued on to the hospital with
12 the kid. On the basis of this information, I invite you once again to say
13 whether you stick to your story and whether you say this person provided
14 false testimony under oath. Which one is it?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it should be phrased like that. Just
16 ask him whether he sticks to his store. Asking him whether the other one
17 whether the other one committed perjury is --
18 MR. NICHOLLS: If I may say, Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt,
19 but that is exactly the reason why I make these types of objections. I am
20 not trying to slow things down, but that is what -- in old English text,
21 that is what is called that the mischief of that type of question.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Just answer the following question: Having been
23 given this information, do you still stick to your story that at no time
24 did you have anyone in your van with you?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, (redacted)
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we go into private, please.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: And you messed it up now, because we have to redact
6 at least four times now. So let's go back to private session, please.
7 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session again.
25 MR. BOURGON:
1 Q. Witness, I will say my question once again. I have information
2 coming from another person who was in the vehicle that night who says he
3 was in the vehicle that night, and he identified you as the driver and he
4 also remembered detail that you provided some chocolate to the Muslim boy
5 on your way to the Z Brigade command. On the basis of this information,
6 straightforward, do you stick with your story, and were you still alone in
7 the van that night?
8 A. Sir, I didn't offer anything to the child. It never crossed my
9 mind. I was in a hurry to -- to get there as soon as possible before he
10 bled to death, you know. There were two wounds to be stitched up. There
11 was no time to tary. I was in a hurry and I didn't give any cakes.
12 Q. Thank you, Witness.
13 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I think it is time for a break.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it has to be a 30-minute break because we
15 had redactions towards the end of the sitting. So we will reconvene in 30
16 minutes' time.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I just wonder if we
18 can -- if there is an estimate just for our planning purposes of how long
19 this is going to go on.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can discuss it amongst yourselves during
21 the break.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Haynes.
25 MR. HAYNES: I promised that I would give you an answer about the
1 motion for safe conduct.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, let's go into private session, yes,
4 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, you may proceed.
1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Witness, we will continue later on with respect to the place where
3 you said that you picked up the Muslim boy that night, and I have more
4 information that I will share with you from people who were actually there
5 that night.
6 But for now, I'd like to address a different topic, and that is
7 the time that you arrived for the first time at the Orahovac school.
8 Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are quite familiar with the surroundings
9 of the Orahovac school, is that correct?
10 A. Perhaps it would be too much to say that I know the surroundings,
11 but I know in detail the area around the road. But as for the environs, I
12 don't know what you mean. You mean the part behind the "sava" [as
13 interpreted], I don't know. What I could see around me, around the road,
14 that I know to an inch, yes.
15 Q. And could you see houses in front of the school, and do you happen
16 to know to whom these houses belong to?
17 A. They are houses, I think belonging to the Vidovics; Before them
18 are the houses of the Matics; the house that is near the road itself, it's
19 a small house. I don't know whose it was, the owners changed; I don't
20 know anybody's house behind the gym. I don't know anybody's house. There
21 were some shops there, too.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness. I needed this information because I will be
23 providing you later on with a plan of the area which has some names on it,
24 and I wanted to be -- after showing this plan to my colleague, there are
25 some names on it. So before I would give it to you, I needed to know what
1 information you knew about the surroundings.
2 MR. BOURGON: If I may recall the exhibit that was used yesterday
3 by the Prosecution, 1691, the way it was marked by the witness yesterday.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction on page 39, line 4, the
5 word should be "gym" and not the "sava."
6 MR. BOURGON: Is it possible to have the one...
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's there now. We have it now.
8 MR. BOURGON:
9 Q. Witness, I ask you to look at this picture, which -- on which you
10 made two markings yesterday. And we are in open session, but this is not
11 being broadcasted. And it says 101 anyway, so I think we can proceed with
13 JUDGE AGIUS: There is no problem. I see no problem, Mr. Bourgon.
14 MR. BOURGON:
15 Q. And I would like you to confirm, Witness, by looking at this
16 picture, that the first mark that you did, and I would like you to circle
17 around where the truck was in which the prisoners were loaded.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. I understand that the markings you just made with the same colour,
20 I should have asked for a different colour.
21 MR. BOURGON: I'm sorry, because this will change the exhibit from
22 yesterday, unless we can --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: It won't. This will be a new exhibit.
24 MR. BOURGON:
25 Q. The markings you just made now, this is the truck in which the
1 prisoners were loaded. Is that the case?
2 A. Yes. The -- this part next to the gym, that's the back part of
3 the bus, so the truck -- the back part of the truck. So the truck was
4 turned towards Krizevci.
5 Q. And this is where --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. For the record, the marking that the
7 witness has made in sort of an unfinished rectangle is approximate, or
8 around the previous mark X that he had made yesterday.
9 Yes, go ahead.
10 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Now, the -- the truck which was -- in which the prisoners were
12 loaded, this is the truck in which you said yesterday that they put some
13 kind of ladder or steps for the prisoners to go up on that truck. Is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And yesterday in your testimony, you mentioned that a corridor was
17 made out to lead the prisoners from the school into that -- into the
18 truck. I'd like you to draw the corridor that you're talking about, the
19 way it was made, to the best of your ability.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Now, the second mark that was there yesterday, this is where I
22 understand that your van was. Can you circle the second mark to show
23 where your van was?
24 A. Yes. [Marks]
25 Q. Did you see, Witness, any other vehicles around the school at that
2 A. There was a military or an army jeep there.
3 Q. And could you locate and put where that military jeep was, if you
5 A. [Marks]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: If I may interrupt you for the time being, so that
7 we try to give it more clarity.
8 Witness, let's start with the first marking that you made,
9 indicating the location of the truck. Can I ask you to write -- put down
10 the letter T? T for tango.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Next to the truck, next to the
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now, next to the marking that you made
16 indicating the location of the corridor, could I ask you please to put or
17 to mark the letter C?
18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now, next to the marking indicating the
20 location of your van, could you please put the letter V?
21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And next to the other marking which indicates the
24 location of the military jeep, could you put the letter J?
25 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. May I clarify with the
2 court officer that where the vehicle with the J is drawn, that this will
3 be picked up.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. I've just verified it myself. Thank you.
5 MR. BOURGON:
6 Q. Now, Witness, I will ask you to look at this picture once again,
7 and I look at on the side, on the right side at the bottom we see
8 something that could be a vehicle. I'm just asking you if the jeep you
9 are talking about was further away from this place or was it around that
11 A. You can see clearly the end of the road; the edge of the road, and
12 looking down from the left on the right side of the road was where the
13 jeep was, more or less, approximately the way I indicated it here.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, the last thing I'd like you to indicate
15 on this -- on this sketch is yesterday you spoke about one of the
16 prisoners who tried to escape, and who was followed by some people who ran
17 after him. I'd like you to indicate, if we can use another colour, is
18 that possible? And indicate where you saw this prisoner escape and which
19 way did the prisoner escape?
20 A. Halfway into the yard from the gate to the entrance into the hall,
21 halfway on the road. I didn't see that, but it's probably where he ripped
22 off his blindfold, and then he ran behind the building here, and from what
23 I could see they shot at him. I don't know if he was hit in the course of
24 that. But behind the building when you couldn't see him, you could hear
25 bursts of fire; and then after that, those two young men with the rifles
1 returned by themselves, returned alone.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness -- let me handle this, Mr. Bourgon. Okay.
3 Thank you for that information which you also gave us yesterday. Now, we
4 need to -- we would like you to put -- mark the letter P on the location
5 where you first saw this prisoner on the point of escaping, before he
6 started to escape. Where was he? Put the letter P, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So for the record, the witness has put the
9 letter P in blue, and then traced the route that this prisoner would have
10 taken in his attempt to escape. Is that correct? Okay. Thank you. I
11 see the witness nodding. Mr. Bourgon.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
13 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Witness, I will now, on the basis of this sketch -- well first,
15 were there any other vehicles that you can remember being there at the
16 school on that day?
17 A. From what I can remember, there were no other cars at that moment.
18 No other vehicles. I stayed there for ten or 15 minutes, sir, until the
19 truck came from the direction of Krizevici, a new group entered. That was
20 the time I stayed there. And during that time, I didn't see a large
21 number of vehicles there. Perhaps I missed one, but there were no
22 military vehicles there anymore.
23 Q. Now, my next question, Witness -- did you wish to add something?
24 A. Perhaps there were in the yards of the other houses, perhaps they
25 had taken their vehicles to the yards of the houses because of the road.
1 The road was being normally used. The villagers from the surrounding area
2 were using the road. The traffic was not suspended or banned on the road.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, yesterday you mentioned that (redacted)
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right. You are right. We did. So let's
14 redact this, and go into private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 7680-7681 redacted. Private session
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
3 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Witness, on the basis of information provided by witnesses in this
5 case who mentioned that the corridor that you are talking about, there was
6 such a corridor created, but that was when the prisoners arrived with the
7 buses and were placed initially in the gym. I suggest to you that you did
8 not see the prisoners being loaded in that truck, or that you were present
9 earlier when those buses arrived.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take them one by one, because I think they're
11 two different things. Put your first question, Mr. Bourgon, again; which
12 is a repetition of the previous question.
13 MR. BOURGON:
14 Q. I will say my question again in two parts, and I heard there was a
15 mistake in the translation. My first proposition to you is that -- or
16 even I will make it easier.
17 The fact that the corridor was made out to escort the prisoners is
18 a story that you heard and that you never saw.
19 A. Everything I said is the truth. I didn't see a single corridor,,
20 I didn't see a single bus bringing the people there. I was some 15
21 minutes there, and then some 15 minutes until the whole thing was
22 finished. I didn't see a single corridor. If it's the corridor you've
23 been asking me about, as well as His Honour, I was referring to two or
24 three soldiers standing on one side and two to three soldiers standing on
25 the other side. They stood in a relaxed manner, carrying weapons. It
1 wasn't a corridor. I'm not sure how many people you're envisaging to have
2 been there. You see, the prisoners were quite relaxed. They were told
3 that they were going to be an exchange, for a prisoner exchange.
4 When they were entering or rather climbing on the truck, everybody
5 was telling them, "Do not fear, you're going for an exchange." They were
6 treated correctly. Well, if you can say correctly. They were brought
7 some water into the gym. I brought two sacks of bread. My later
8 impression was that these soldiers, who were there, were not aware of what
9 was actually happening. That was the impression I got.
10 Q. Thank you, Witness. One last question on this sketch. You
11 mentioned in your testimony yesterday that you yourself followed the truck
12 as long -- along with the jeep. You were the third vehicle in that
13 convoy. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And I propose to you today that you cannot tell or identify who
16 was in that convoy from the army of Republika Srpska.
17 A. How should I know, since I didn't have even five or six minutes of
18 dealings with the army throughout the war. I used to drive shifts of
19 soldiers for a while, and I could tell by the looks which one of them were
20 aggressive or evil. I didn't care about knowing what their names were or
21 maintaining any sort of contact.
22 And I know full well the order in which we were in this line, and
23 I know that soldiers were standing at the ready with their weapons on the
24 jeep to intervene, should some of the prisoners try to escape from the
25 truck; although, I didn't see anything but the one incident I told you
1 next to the gym, and then I know of some other incidents unrelated to this
3 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, I'd like to -- yesterday you provided
4 some information concerning --
5 MR. BOURGON: We can -- I'm finished with this exhibit, so maybe
6 we can just put the date, today's date to show that.
7 Q. Can you, Witness, put the date. Just where you put 101, simply
8 put today's date, and that is the 23rd of February.
9 A. [Marks]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll save it, Madam Registrar, and give
11 it a number.
12 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
13 MR. BOURGON:
14 Q. Witness, I now move on to my next question, which deals with your
15 description of Drago Nikolic was doing in Orahovac. And I put it to you
16 that this was information that you did not know or remember when you met
17 with the Prosecution, both in November of 2005 as well as in April of
18 2006, because that is not mentioned in either document. Is that correct?
19 A. Are you referring to the text with the -- in communicating with
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop. I'm sorry I have to stop you because
16 then we will have to redact an entire page or so. In the meantime, Madam
17 Registrar, you need to redact where necessary, from lines 17 of the
18 previous page until now.
19 Let's go into private session to deal with this, because he keeps
20 on mentioning these names.
21 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And the question -- yes, you can repeat it.
16 MR. BOURGON:
17 Q. The question is, Witness: I'm simply saying that in your first
18 statement the actions of Drago Nikolic are not described. In your
19 information we have from April 2006, the actions of Drago Nikolic are not
20 described; and then suddenly in December of 2006, for the first time you
21 speak about Drago Nikolic. I'd like to know why this is so.
22 A. A moment ago you confused me. I thought you -- you asked me about
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Never-ending story. Redact that and let's proceed.
25 Thank you. We are talking of Drago Nikolic.
1 MR. BOURGON:
2 Q. Would you like me to repeat the question, or...
3 A. No, no, no. It's quite clear now. No problem. Mr. Interpreter
4 [as interpreted], I know that the person you're asking about, that he was
5 in charge of prisoner exchanges at the barracks of captured soldiers,
6 Serbs and Muslims, and this was the story I heard from the people at the
7 barracks that he was a very good at what he was doing.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Stop, stop.
9 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: I just want to make something clear --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: I want to make something clear to in fairness in
13 reference to the question. The question was: "And then suddenly in
14 December 2006, for the first time you speak about Drago Nikolic," and I
15 don't think that is what my friend's assertion would be. I don't think he
16 is asserting that would he didn't speak about Drago Nikolic in his very
17 first statement.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you have to say about that, Mr. Bourgon.
19 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, if at that time I did not say "actions of,"
20 my proposition to the witness is that he never described any actions of
21 Drago Nikolic in November 2005, in April 2006, and that it is only in
22 December that suddenly we have information provided by him by -- about the
23 actions of Drago Nikolic. I'd like to know why this is so.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you understand the question?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please proceed to answer it.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a moment ago what was Drago
3 who I knew like. You could never tell what the person was doing. You
4 could always see him going around alone; and then later on, sitting in
5 cafes, I would hear stories of Drago as being such and such a person, and
6 then stories by various people.
7 It was in this way that I learnt later on, because for many of
8 these people I didn't know what their functions were. I saw him there on
9 the spot where I did, and later on I heard that he was in charge of
10 security. Truth to tell, I thought that he was a Chief of Police; I mean
11 military police. I found out later that --
12 MR. BOURGON:
13 Q. So the information you possessed about Drago Nikolic you found out
14 about after the events and, actually, you didn't know what was his duty in
15 July of 1995. Is that correct?
16 A. In 1995, yes, I knew then. Throughout the war, I didn't know what
17 his duty was. I knew about that first one related to the exchanges. But
18 I didn't know that a person holding the position of a security officer
19 would be dealing with these matters, would be dealing with exchanges. I
20 didn't know which function or role such a person would hold. It was later
21 on that I found out that he was in charge of security.
22 I knew other security officers, I cooperated with them, I did many
23 things with them.
24 Q. Witness, I need to interrupt you because I need you to get to the
25 question that I'm asking.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think, if you phrase it the way I'm going to
2 suggest to you, and I hope you will appreciate this, it will probably
4 May I suggest to you that you put to the witness first what
5 according to you in December 2006 were the actions that he describes in
6 relation to Drago Nikolic. That's number one.
7 Then ask him why, on previous occasions, he had never given such a
9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, he
10 described yesterday actions of Drago Nikolic, so that's not what I -- my
11 interest is why is it that this information only came out in December of
12 2006 and not before.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, I think it's clear now. What is required
14 from you is an explanation why these actions that Mr. Bourgon is referring
15 to, you only mentioned in December 2006 and not before.
16 JUDGE KWON: I don't think until this moment the witness had
17 understood your question. Could you kindly put Mr. Nikolic's conduct as
18 he described yesterday and then ask the question again.
19 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Judge.
20 Q. Yesterday, Witness, you said that you saw Drago Nikolic at the
21 Orahovac school. I will quote what you said yesterday. Now, I look at
22 the transcript. I do not have the -- the exact reference with me now, I'm
23 looking for it.
24 What I'm simply putting to you is yesterday you said that he was
25 at the school and that he was to quote, "listening and issuing orders
1 which were not really orders," and that there was really no need for
2 orders. I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the exact reference.
3 Why is this information you did not provide before December of
5 A. You see, I'm neither a lawyer nor an intern to be able to know the
6 time-line and to know which are the most important things to tell you.
7 Perhaps I should have told this at the time, but we didn't go into details
8 and this may have been the reason. I'm not -- many lawyers are not really
9 skillful at some issues and some situations.
10 Q. Thank you, Witness. I will stop with this topic and move on to
11 the next topic, which is the final thing I want to address today and that
12 is --
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bourgon, can I help you, the exact page is 7573,
14 and it's starting from line 4. So can I read it for you?
15 MR. BOURGON: No need, Judge. I will move on, because I cannot
16 get across to the fact why the information came later but that's perfectly
17 fine with the witness.
18 Q. The last area I want to cover, Witness, is concerning the time you
19 spent where you say that you picked up the kid. Now, first, I will ask
20 you some questions as to what you say that you saw there. My first
21 question is -- are we in private session, because we don't need to be in
22 private session.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We are on open session.
24 MR. BOURGON:
25 Q. My first question is: Did you see any heavy machinery where you
1 say that you picked up the kid?
2 A. No, no. Not a single machine, not a -- not even the smallest of
3 loaders, none of those construction machines or tractors.
4 Q. And, Witness, did you see any other vehicles at that place?
5 A. There were some cars there. I can't remember well. There were
6 cars on their way up to the village that would stop and look; and even
7 down at Orahovac, you have people standing behind their fence and watching
8 out of their yards and observing what was going on.
9 You see, in such a situation, I could not be relaxed enough to be
10 able to take in all of what was going on, what people were saying or
11 doing. It was very difficult, very difficult. I was focused on the
12 events, on the atrocities.
13 Q. Thank you, Witness. My question to you is that -- my proposition
14 to you on the basis that information that I have is that you are not the
15 one who picked up the Muslim boy and took that -- took him from the
16 execution site that day. Do you stick to your story or do you want me to
17 share with you that information?
18 A. Sir, at the time Yugoslavia was in communism, I was the only one
19 having a roast on a spit for Christmas --
20 Q. Witness, I am sorry. My question is very, very precise.
21 A. -- and celebrating St. George.
22 Q. Do you maintain your story even in the face of the proposition
23 that you were not the one who took the kid from the site? Do you maintain
24 your testimony?
25 A. God knows and people know and those in the hospital know who
1 brought him in. All those who tell a different story, well, they will be
2 given by God what they deserve.
3 Q. Witness, my question --
4 A. If I lie, you can kill me.
5 Q. Witness, my question does not relate to who took the kid to the
6 hospital. My question relates to who took the kid from where you say you
7 picked him up, and I'm saying that you are not the person who picked up
8 the kid that night.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: What I --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, sir. I've been carrying this
11 around my neck for 30 years. This is my faith. Jesus Christ and Virgin
12 Mary on the other side. I am not a false -- novice in faith. I have been
13 a believer for years and years, and I swear on this that I took this child
14 into the van, just as I stated in all my statements.
15 I have been living all my life with this truth and with these
16 horrors, and I would not wish something like this to befall you and to be
17 convincing persons who are telling the truth, that they are, in fact, not
18 telling the truth. I don't know why you're doing this, for money, but I'm
19 telling you that I --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move on.
21 MR. BOURGON:
22 Q. Witness, I will share with you some information that I have from a
23 potential witness, but before that I need to go into closed session for
24 one question.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a short while.
1 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session.
15 MR. BOURGON:
16 Q. Witness, I have obtained information from a potential Defence
17 witness, according to whom the Muslim child was placed on the back of the
18 military truck which drove away with the kid in the back, and this person
19 says that having seen with his own eyes the kid being in the back of a
20 truck driving back to the school in Orahovac. On the basis of this
21 information, I suggest that you did not tell the truth when you said that
22 you put the kid in your van and that you left the site with him.
23 A. Sir, I stand by what I said word for word. Let me not repeat this
25 Q. Thank you, Witness.
1 A. This is the way it was on the first day and will be all my life.
2 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, before I move to my next question, I
3 request that the witness be given the warning at Rule 91(1) [sic].
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: When that kind of proposition is put to the witness
6 from a potential Defence witness, I think we're entitled to know who it is
7 on our side when this is being read out.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Our position is --
10 MR. NICHOLLS: May I make one other -- sorry.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: With this specific question, you were seen doing --
13 this was seen by somebody with their own eyes. In that case, it may be
14 appropriate to tell the witness who this is, to help him answer. I mean
15 he has answered that he is sticking by his story. But when he says this
16 person saw you, then the witness can possibly say whether or not that
17 person was even around.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, are you prepared to tell the witness
19 who this person is?
20 MR. BOURGON: For the same reason as why the Prosecution has been
21 asking for all these protective measures, this particular person, and the
22 next one I'm going to speak about, is not willing at this time to have
23 their names disclosed nor to have any information, because they are afraid
24 for their security. These are two persons that would -- that have -- that
25 provided information to the Defence that they were present on that
1 location; and both of these persons, there will be filings and motions put
2 forward to the Trial Chamber with ex parte information.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll delay our decision on the issue that you raise
5 until later. More or less we are there, but it requires a little bit more
6 discussion amongst ourselves, although we'll be in a position to come to a
7 quick conclusion later on. Let's proceed with your cross-examination.
8 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to make a
9 correction to the transcript, further to what my colleague said a few
10 moments ago. Because I quote my colleague at page 59, line 25, and page
11 60, lines 1 to 4. My colleague said, in this case, it may be appropriate
12 to tell the witness who this is too, when he says this person saw you.
13 Now, I refer back to what you said in the transcript --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: He didn't say that..
15 MR. BOURGON: -- on page 59, lines 4 to 10. I did not say that
16 that person had seen the witness; on the contrary, this person did not see
17 the witness.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct.
19 MR. BOURGON: And that is what why my proposition, as I'm telling
20 to the witness, that he is not telling the truth when he says that he was
21 the one to pick up the kid.
22 Q. Sir, do you maintain your testimony?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry. I believe he answered that before we got
24 into all of this.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Witness.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am not a lawyer, so
2 I'm going to ask you to intervene, if necessary, or I don't know what.
3 But the counsel asserted that (redacted) went to the
4 barracks with me and that I stopped off at barracks, and now, again, there
5 are some claims by witnesses -- that he has witnesses that a truck picked
6 up the child and took him away. What is true of all of that?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's answer the proposition once and for all,
9 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, he did answer, my colleague is
10 correct. I looked at the transcript and he said that he stands by his --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.
12 MR. BOURGON: -- Word for word, too.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
14 MR. BOURGON: My request, Mr. President, before I move to my last
15 question, had to deal with the warning at Rule 91(A), which reads that the
16 Chamber may proprio motu or at the request of a party may warn a witness
17 of the duty to tell the truth and the consequences that may result from a
18 failure to do so.
19 I would request, Mr. President, that the witness be given this
20 warning at this time.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: I just ask what the basis is before the question
23 has even been asked for him to go ahead with this. It seems like it's
24 just a -- a way to try to rattle the witness to me.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
1 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I don't think I need a basis for
2 placing that request, according to Rule 91 Alpha, but I have a full basis
3 because for the duration of my cross-examination the witness has been
4 denying constantly propositions based on information that I possess.
5 Before I move to my last question, he should be given this warning. He
6 should be given the opportunity. It is my duty to put my case to him. It
7 is my duty that he has the opportunity to know what the consequences will
8 be in the sense of what the information he is providing.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I think the witness was put on notice at the
10 beginning of his testimony that his responsibility is to speak the truth.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: As I said earlier on, I think we put the witness on
13 notice at the beginning of his testimony that he is under an obligation to
14 testify the truth, pursuant to the solemn declaration he made, and we
15 don't believe there is any need for us to resort to Rule 91(A) at this
16 stage, Mr. Bourgon. He knows what his responsibilities are.
17 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I will move to another
18 question, for which I need to go into private session.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.
20 [Private session]
11 Page 7698 redacted. Private session
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
14 MR. BOURGON:
15 Q. Witness, yesterday, we discussed the two interviews that took
16 place between you and the Prosecution, the first one taking place in
17 November 2005 and the second one taking place on 10th of April, 2006. I
18 would like you to confirm what you said yesterday concerning your
19 relationship with the Prosecution, and I quote you from page 65 of the
20 transcript yesterday, lines 3 to 5.
21 "This is no secret. That is what was read out to me because I
22 announced to the Prosecutors that I would be giving no statements unless I
23 am granted this and that, such and such a thing."
24 Can you confirm that this was your motivation for providing
25 testimony before this Court today?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: He can answer the question, and -- but what I
3 object to is the form of the question which misstates and mischaracterises
4 the record. There -- the witness testified about how he wanted protective
5 measures and that he was concerned for his family. He never said that his
6 motive for giving statements was for any particular purpose.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what he's being asked now.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: He's asking him to confirm that that's what he
10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what he's being asked now.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can reply, no problem.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. Please give us your answer to that
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I have just heard from the
15 Prosecutor this debate; the motive for the request for protective
16 measures. Well, I'm not some pauper, a poor person asking for protection
17 and a chance in life. I have done a lot of things in life, and perhaps
18 you don't know about that. Even before the war I had a lot, and everybody
19 was asking where did he get this that. Even during the war I made a lot
20 and I had an expensive car, and everybody was asking me what was it.
21 After the war again I made a lot, and I had a house and I had a lot of
22 other things. And always people would ask themselves, how does he do it?
23 Even now I am well off. I am not motivated by any reasons. All that I
24 want I've achieved much more than many others. I have achieved a lot,
25 believe me, as a worker, as a driver, at an international level. I have a
1 lot, and I am rich as a man.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions.
3 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Bourgon. I understand that some
5 Defence counsel wish, and others don't wish to cross-examine the witness.
6 Can you enlighten us on this? I understand Mr. Haynes you are require
7 about 20 minutes or something like that.
8 MR. HAYNES: Yes, something like that.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish us to have the break now and then --
10 MR. HAYNES: It would be seem to be sensible.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think we can live with 25 minutes? Okay.
12 We'll have a 25-minute break instead of a 30-minute one. Thank you.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. I represent Vinko Pandurevic, who, in 1995, was the commander of
20 the Zvornik Brigade. I dare say you remember that.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I have just a few questions for you, but I'm going to ask you
23 to do me two favours, if you would. Firstly, I'm going to try and keep
24 the matter in public session, so that those people who are interested in
25 this case can watch and listen to it, which means that I'm going to do
1 everything possible to avoid revealing your identity to the public. Will
2 you do the same?
3 A. To try to what?
4 Q. Avoid revealing your identity to the public, so that means don't
5 refer to your name or anybody you know or anywhere you might have lived.
6 That sort of thing. Okay?
7 And the second thing I'd like you to do for me is to listen to my
8 questions and see if you can answer them shortly. Because we haven't got
9 much time left, and it will get it over with quicker. Okay?
10 Now, the first area of questions I have to ask you about --
11 A. I will do my best.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 Q. Now, the first area of questions I've got for you are about your
15 work within the Zvornik Brigade. So again, here, be careful and think
16 about what you're saying and don't reveal too much about your identity.
17 But I'm going to suggest to you that your work at the Zvornik Brigade
18 meant that you came into regular contact with many soldiers, didn't you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Well, you drove them by the busload, didn't you, for a long period
21 of time?
22 A. Yes, but that doesn't mean that I had contacts with them. It's a
23 routine kind of work. Some soldiers were perhaps a bit irritable or
24 drunk. I could recognise them. I knew them by sight. When you know
25 someone then you know their name, you know who they are, where they're
1 from. They all knew me, excuse me, but I just knew them very...
2 Q. I am perfectly happy with the answer that you have given me. You
3 have probably saved me three or four questions. But also you were at the
4 Standard building the headquarters at Karakaj on virtually a daily basis,
5 weren't you?
6 A. Yes. That's the place -- or rather, that's the place where I had
7 to come. I would hand over the car there, and then leave. Mainly that's
8 it. I didn't have any other command post or any place where I was bound
9 to report for duty.
10 Q. Again, thank you. And, generally speaking, it wasn't always the
11 case, but generally speaking you would arrive for work in the morning and
12 you would finish by dropping the car off in the late afternoon or early
13 evening, wouldn't you?
14 A. Yes, of course.
15 Q. And if on occasion you arrived much later than that, you would be
16 pretty lucky to run into your transport manager, wouldn't you, because he
17 would have gone?
18 A. No. They worked in shifts. I always had to hand over the car to
19 someone, so that they would know that I left the car in a working
20 condition, washed, with all the papers. If they were there, perhaps the
21 person was sleeping on the bed, and I would have to wake them up.
22 Sometimes people would come at 1.00 in the morning, 3.00 or 5.00 in the
24 Q. Now, I want to move on, and remind you of a particular day when
25 according to the records we've seen, you did go to the Standard building.
1 That was the 4th of July. Now, I don't suppose you will remember this
2 day, but it was a day when a -- a military force left the Zvornik Brigade
3 headquarters on a combat mission.
4 A. Yes, yes. I know that there was a departure, a movement, because
5 there weren't too many soldiers at the barracks. They were all outside,
6 so you didn't really see that much activity in terms of vehicles. If
7 anything like that happened, you would of course sense it and know it was
9 Q. Thank you very much. And did you know or come to know through
10 speaking to people at the barracks that that was a force that was going on
11 a combat mission under the command of Vinko Pandurevic?
12 A. No. Can I just go into a little bit more detail? Not much. Can
13 I, please?
14 Q. Of course.
15 A. Sir, as for Mr. Pandurevic, please excuse me, but I feel that I
16 have the right to say that Mr. Pandurevic, until he is convicted, as far
17 as I'm concerned for me, and I think also before God, I can take that
18 right. That whole situation in Srebrenica and during the events in
19 Zvornik and around Zvornik, believe me, everyone in the barracks asked
20 themselves where is "Zuti." Please don't mind me saying this. It's a
21 nickname used by friends, and Mr. Pandurevic wasn't around to hear it.
22 They would refer to him as "Zuti." That's when you think something well
23 of a person.
24 Everybody thought -- because that man was very capable and
25 intelligent, incredible, a very rare example of a man of such abilities of
1 him evading such a situation, avoiding it. He was on sick leave,
2 studying, taking exams. He either took his Ph.D. or his masters or
3 something like that.
4 Everybody was talking, Well, he knew how to get himself out. How
5 to extricate himself. This is something that everybody in the barracks
6 was talking about. Since nobody saw him at the barracks, heard of him,
7 that's why people were saying what's happening with him. They said he
8 left the hot coals to Dragan Obrenovic. He was so clever that he managed
9 to get himself away. I don't know how that -- how much of that story is
10 true. That's something that God knows, other people perhaps know,
11 witnesses or perhaps Mr. Pandurevic.
12 But it's a man who -- there was no person in the barracks that had
13 any reason not to love and respect him. Well, you don't have to love him,
14 but you would respect him. He solved a million situations that no officer
15 would be able to solve. Difficult situations, difficult problems, he
16 would resolve them. They would call Pandurevic. He would sit there for
17 an hour, five hours with a large number of people to resolve a situation
18 without shouting, without any kind of imposition or screaming like
19 officers have a habit of doing.
20 I'm sorry, but I just felt that I needed to say something about a
21 man that I knew. It is my sacred duty to do that. I was never in a
22 situation to say "Good day" to this person and I regret that. I wish I
23 could have experienced some contact with him, just like maybe with an
24 artist or some major figure or something.
25 I'm sorry, and I regret and my heart will ache if it should turn
1 out - I don't know - but if he is in a situation to be called to
2 responsibility. Well, I'm sorry. This is what I wanted to say, and I'm
3 sorry if I was a little bit too expansive.
4 Q. No. Thank you very much. I was simply going to ask you to
5 confirm for me that from the 4th of July, and including the period when
6 you went to Orahovac or say you went to Orahovac, Vinko Pandurevic was not
7 in and around the command headquarters. I think you've confirmed that.
8 A. Sir, I am speaking the truth, before God and before people and
9 before this Honourable Court.
10 Q. And the other factor that you have confirmed for me is that during
11 the period we are talking that is relevant to your evidence, the command
12 of the brigade was the responsibility of Dragan Obrenovic?
13 A. That is correct. That was the situation. I was in the
14 circumstances where I was sent off with bales of nylon to take to
15 Obrenovic on the Serb side where Obrenovic was located with Pragas and
16 self-propelled canons, guns. And I was in a situation where I had to go
17 through the corridor via Crni Vrh made by the people from Srebrenica.
18 Only God and they allowed me to cross the corridor. I went through that
19 corridor of theirs, which was very, very intense.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to move on to another subject, but before
21 I do I am going to have to just drop into private session for just one
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that quickly, please.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 7707 redacted. Private session
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back to open session.
22 MR. HAYNES:
23 Q. I just want to remind you of the details of what you said. You
24 said you saw about 30 prisoners in total. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And they were in a hall that was fit for holding 130 people?
2 A. Just one moment. In a room, yes, but the prisoner -- the prison
3 was also used for Serb soldiers before and after that. Those people who
4 were there, the 20 or 30 people were not people who had been taken to
5 executions. They were there, one, two, three days. The buses were
6 arriving, soldiers came out of the buses with their hands tied, then their
7 blindfolds were taken off. They went to the bathroom; that was why they
8 stopped there. They were escorted there. Normally, none of them stayed
9 there or remained there for any period of time during the day. Perhaps I
10 saw three buses. At the times when I was at the barracks, these were
11 buses with Vukovar, Novi Sad licence plates.
12 Q. Thank you very much. Please try and keep the answers short. I'm
13 trying to keep the questions simple. You said there were five or six in
14 another room, which you described as a toilet. Can I put something to
15 you: The room you're talking about is, in fact, a holding cell with a
16 small wash basin and some mattresses in it, isn't it?
17 A. It's not a cell, sir. It's a toilet; classical bathroom, toilet,
18 sink. I don't know if there were mattresses there or not, but they were
19 locked. The door was not open like it was with the -- these 20 or 30
20 people. I guess some of those 20 or 30 people were allegedly described as
21 extremists and that's where they were placed. They took their food there.
22 These were separate from the other ones. I don't know what the reasons
23 for that were, but they were not mistreated either.
24 Q. Thank you very much. You have said somewhere in your answer - I'm
25 afraid I've lost my LiveNote - but you said somewhere in your answer that
1 you thought these people were held there for two or three days. Is that
3 A. I don't believe so. I saw them there one day, and I was in the
4 situation that when I carried out an assignment or something I would go
5 back there. You know, these are difficult situations, difficult
6 experiences, and then you come to see something that you've never seen in
7 your life and then you talk to them as if they were your own people. And
8 these police officers were sitting inside and speaking with them, these
9 two or three local policemen there.
10 Q. Now, the occasion on which you saw these prisoners in the room and
11 in the toilet at the Zvornik Brigade headquarters was a different day to
12 the day on which you went to Orahovac, wasn't it?
13 A. No. No. The buses and all of this was earlier.
14 Q. Well, I'm going to suggest to you, you are wrong about that. It
15 was on a different day. It was, in fact, later than the day you went to
16 Orahovac, wasn't it? Do you think that might be possible?
17 A. I think that the buses were before Orahovac, because I know I saw
18 one man from Konjevic Polje who was there. His name was Omer. He was a
19 tyre man and he was waiting in a line to go into the -- to the toilet, and
20 the man said to me, "Can you help me?" And I told him there is no way, I
21 was afraid for my own life. "If I help you, I just dare not. I simply
22 dare not. And perhaps you are going to be exchanged, and I have no reason
23 to help you."
24 Q. Did you subsequently hear that the people who had been held there
25 had been exchanged. They'd been taken to Batkovici?
1 A. No, I can only assume so. I did not ask around, believe me. The
2 impression was these were important people who had something to tell, and
3 they were being held there. (redacted)
7 (redacted). I
8 know he was held and killed -- or rather, he was held and interrogated
9 and then he was released; and when he was released, he reflected
10 positively on the time of his detention. I suppose these people were held
11 there in the interests of further investigation, and were then transferred
12 to Bijeljina to that prison, whatever it's called, from where they were
13 either exchanged or...
14 Q. Okay. I'm just going to ask you one more question, and I want you
15 to think very carefully about it. I've probably asked it before, but it's
16 a long time ago now. And the reason I did ask you the question about
17 where the funeral was in relation to Orahovac is to illustrate to you
18 how difficult it is to place these events in time. Do you think it is
19 possible that you saw the buses after you went to Orahovac rather than
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: He's answered that.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: He's answered that question, Mr. Haynes.
24 MR. HAYNES: I don't believe he has addressed the possibility.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: He asked if it was possible and he said, "I don't
1 think so."
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go through it again one more time, and this
3 will be the last time.
4 Witness, do you allow for the possibility that you may have seen
5 the buses after and not before?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, and I'm convinced, that I
7 saw them before the execution at Orahovac. Where the buses went on from
8 there, I don't know.
9 MR. HAYNES:
10 Q. You will be glad to hear I'm coming to my last topic of
11 cross-examination for you, and I want to return to something that
12 Mr. Bourgon has asked you about. And it's about taking the boy to the
13 hospital. I want to ask you when it was, and this better be in private
14 session, please.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go back to private session, please.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 7713-7718 redacted. Private session
18 [Open session]
19 MR. HAYNES:
20 Q. You would agree, wouldn't you, that Mali Zvornik is a short
21 distance away from Zvornik itself?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that Celopek is, in fact, a suburb of Zvornik?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And these are destinations that you regularly placed upon your
1 vehicle log to explain where you had been driving on any particular day?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that Orahovac, by contrast, is about ten kilometres from
5 A. It's not ten. It's not ten. It's, I think, maybe even closer
6 than Celopek.
7 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Haynes.
9 Who is next? Mr. Zivanovic.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will have only several
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. I should like to remind you of one part of your testimony that I
16 read, which says that at the point that you arrived at the execution site,
17 you were addressed by a soldier who told you that in another meadow there
18 were executions carried out, that other meadow was full of corpses, that
19 they stopped firing upon people there, and that they moved to that other
20 meadow where you were located at the time. Is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I understood you to say that for the time you spent there, as you
23 arrived at the site, it was still day-time. There was no sun, but there
24 was daylight. You were able to see clearly.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I would like to tell you that we had occasion to hear the
2 testimony of one witness here who fortunately survived an execution at
3 this other meadow behind. The witness told us that the executions
4 finished over there at nightfall, and that the people who were involved in
5 that there only then went over to this other meadow where you said that
6 they were firing at the time. I'm merely trying to point to you this
7 contradiction; because based on the statement of this witness, and we have
8 no reason to disbelieve him, the executions were transferred to the meadow
9 where you were at night, and not during the day when, as you say, you
10 arrived there, you arrived there at dusk, but it was still light, as you
11 said it. I want to ask you whether you stick to what you said before?
12 A. Sir, I believe that this man had darkness, saw darkness because of
13 what was happening. Because as I arrived there, the sun went -- had gone
14 down, because you know that the sun sets.
15 Q. Yes, I understand. At any rate, you are claiming that this was
16 done in the daylight and that you were able to see everything?
17 A. Yes. And as these events progressed, it was getting darker and
18 darker, and I told you that I switched the lights on for the child with a
19 reason, to allow him to see and to be able to talk to him as a father
20 would. This is where the -- this pile of corpses was, sir.
21 Q. Already at the time when you arrived there?
22 A. Yes, and this boy, because this part had been done away with
23 before I arrived.
24 Q. I don't want to belabour the point, as you've already discussed it
25 the extensively.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is off.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, your microphone is not turned on.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Fortunately, there were a few others who survived the executions
5 at that very site where you were, and their stories seemed to be
6 consistent as to the time until which the executions at this other site
7 were taking place because there was mention of flashlights that they
9 A. Absolutely. I told I that I -- I am convinced that after I left,
10 they continued executions under flood lights.
11 Q. Perhaps we misunderstood each other.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, our time is over.
13 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know how much more my friend has, or
15 whether anybody else has anything, but it's just a few minute, I would
16 implore everybody to see if we could stay just a few more that so that
17 we're done. Fore the sake of the witness.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have a re-examination to start with?
19 MR. NICHOLLS: No.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: How many -- how much time do you need?
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe I would need some ten
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And Beara team?
24 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, we would have no questions for this
25 witness. We gave our time to Mr. Bourgon.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Borovcanin team.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will have no
3 questions of this witness.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: The Miletic team?
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [No interpretation]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it. The Gvero team, I under have already
7 indicated that they don't wish to --
8 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go a few more minutes. Try to -- I
10 don't think there is a sitting this afternoon.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
13 Go ahead and please try not to overstep the ten minutes.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. It seems that we didn't understand each other. I said that after
16 this execution, the executions continued on the other meadow to fill up
17 the ranks of the guards, not at this meadow where you were. This is what
18 I was thinking. So, however, you think that perhaps it was continued here
19 and that's all right.
20 Something else, let me tell you. Besides this witness that we had
21 the opportunity to hear here, we had the opportunity to hear another
22 witness who survived, and there are statements of two other survivors
23 whose statements for the most part corroborate each other. And this is
24 why I put that to you, because as you say, this one saw darkness before
25 his eyes and was unable to see, that it was actually dark.
1 A. This is not funny. This is sad.
2 Q. Well, no, no, I'm not laughing. It's just that I cannot believe
3 that the four of them could have made such a mistake, whether it was
4 during daylight or night.
5 A. Well then I'm lying, then I must be lying.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: You are moving at a terrific speed. Please allow --
7 allow a pause between question and answer, otherwise you will create a
8 hell of a confusion here.
9 Mr. Nicholls.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: This is more argument than asking questions,
11 because the witness has answered the question and then he's making his
12 argument, which is fair at the right time. But I don't think it's -- it
13 needs to be done with the witness.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think Mr. Nicholls is right. The witness was
15 there for a limited period of time. That's what he can testify about.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In that case, I am not going to
17 continue with my cross-examination. Thank you.
18 MR. MEEK: Your Honour --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: It becomes a question of argument later on. Yes,
20 Mr. Meek.
21 MR. MEEK: Just for the record, I believe on line 14, page 89, the
22 witness stopped his answer at, "I'm not laughing," and then I think the
23 question started, "It's just that, I cannot believe that the four of
24 them ..." It looks likes one whole answer -- one whole question.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you for that. It needs to be attended
2 MR. MEEK: I don't know.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. You are right, Mr. Meek, and thank you for
4 pointing that out.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think it ought to stay as it is, because it
7 is Mr. Zivanovic after all who said, "No, I'm not laughing." So that
8 brings us -- yes, Mr. Bourgon.
9 MR. BOURGON: Very quickly, Mr. President, I look at the
10 transcript on page 90, when you address my colleague, and you said the
11 witness was there for a limited period of time. Mr. President, this has
12 been our case since the beginning, this witness was not on that site.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: What I meant to say, according to what he said,
15 We have concluded our business with you. You are free to go. You
16 will be attended to by our staff. On behalf of the Tribunal, I wish to
17 thank you for coming over to give testimony here, evidence in this case.
18 I also wish you a safe journey back home.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your understanding.
20 I'm sorry if I made any mistakes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, I understand you wanted to address
22 the Chamber.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, just on a logistics matter. I have spoken to
24 Defence counsel and because of some issues that have arisen with
25 Dr. Haglund, we are -- I believe we've agreed that he will come on in
1 about two weeks, not in the next one or two witnesses as planned. And I
2 wanted to confirm that with everyone and alert the Trial Chamber to that.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Would that mean that Stefanie Frease would enter in
4 that lot immediately after PW-105.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's the plan.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: We just want to make sure that is known to everyone.
8 All right. We have concluded for the day. We wish you a good weekend.
9 And Monday, we will be -- shall we do the exhibits now or on Monday.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Do we do the documents
11 Monday or now? I have no preference.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We can do it now. We can do it now, on the
13 assumption that there are not going to be --
14 MR. BOURGON: I would prefer, Mr. President, if we wait until
15 Monday because I will ask for some of the statements to be admitted for
16 impeachment purposes but redacted -- in a redacted form. So I would
17 prefer if we wait until Monday.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We will do that on Monday. Monday, we will be
19 sitting in the afternoon, exceptionally; and throughout the rest of the
20 week we will always be sitting in the afternoon next week.
21 MR. JOSSE: Except Friday.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Except Friday, yes. Thank you.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of
25 February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.