Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9374

1 Monday, 26 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, good morning, everybody. Madam Registrar, could

6 you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. All the accused are here.

10 Amongst the Defence teams I only notice the absence of Mr. Sarapa. I

11 suppose he is helping you in the office, Mr. Haynes.

12 MR. HAYNES: He was in the building a short while ago. I imagine

13 he will be here at the first break.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And from the Prosecution side I see

15 Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.

16 I understand there are some preliminaries.

17 Madam Fauveau.

18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we go into

19 private session for a moment, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's go into private session please,

21 for a while.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

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Page 9375











11 Pages 9375-9377 redacted. Private session















Page 9378

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15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically -- I thank you, Mr. Bourgon, for

17 responding orally on behalf of the other Defence teams to the Prosecution

18 motion requesting additional time to comply with the Trial Chamber's 7th

19 March order setting dead-lines for submissions regarding the admissibility

20 of intercept evidence and also for informing us that there are

21 negotiations ongoing or discussions ongoing with the Prosecution, the

22 background being the express wish that you have to bring forward some

23 expert evidence before the whole issue of admissibility of intercepts is

24 finally decided by the Trial Chamber. We thank you also, Mr. McCloskey,

25 for your comment. We distance ourselves -- we would not pronounce

Page 9379

1 ourselves on whether this is -- would be relevant for admissibility or

2 not. I think on the face of it, it would be.

3 I can tell you that when we were preparing our 7th March order,

4 the question of whether there would be the need for evidence brought

5 forward by the Defence was something that we discussed, but since we are

6 still in the stage of the Prosecution case, and we are never going to be

7 in a position during that stage to force you to bring evidence during the

8 Prosecution stage, we obviously omitted going into that area in our

9 decision. But, of course, if there is a request on the part of the

10 Defence teams to bring forward evidence and that evidence is on the face

11 of it relevant for the issues to be determined by this Trial Chamber,

12 obviously we will decide on that.

13 All right. So, Mr. Josse now. Let's go into private session.

14 MR. JOSSE: We can start in open session, having thought about it.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse. Give me one moment. Okay. I

16 found the motion. Yes, go ahead.

17 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, first of all, as I have already said, we

18 oppose protective measures for both of these witnesses, particularly 49,

19 if I may say. But dealing with the matter generally first of all and to

20 some extent, as my learned friends have already said, as a matter of

21 principle, we submit that the reasons contained within in particular

22 motion are wholly inadequate. They don't contain remotely enough detail

23 to satisfy the Chamber.

24 On the basis of the concerns, as detailed in this motion,

25 virtually any witness would have protective measures. Indeed, any witness

Page 9380

1 would have some concerns at giving evidence at this court. Perhaps not

2 any witness, but many, many witnesses would, particularly bearing in mind

3 the subject matter of the things they have to testify about. We submit

4 the burden is heavily on the party calling the witness to satisfy the

5 Chamber that there are real reasons for the concerns and that there are

6 concrete examples as to why those concerns might, in some way, come to --

7 if I can put it like this, fruition in the future, in other words,

8 something will happen so as to mean it necessitates the Court actually

9 imposing protective measures in relation to these particular witnesses.

10 Perhaps if I go through the witnesses in turn briefly, we should

11 go into private session.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's do that. Please.

13 MR. JOSSE: The information --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

15 MR. JOSSE: I beg your pardon.

16 [Private session]

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10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir, and welcome back.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to proceed with your testimony today.

14 I doubt if we will finish today, but we will do our utmost.

15 Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning. Good

17 morning, everyone.

18 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

19 Q. Good morning, Witness.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. McCloskey. I only need -- I just

21 wish to remind you -- Witness, I wish to remind you that the solemn

22 declaration that you made when you first started testifying, namely that

23 you will be testifying the truth, still holds good. We don't repeat it

24 each time you walk into the courtroom. It's valid for the entire duration

25 of your testimony. Do you understand me?

Page 9387

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 Mr. McCloskey.


5 Q. Witness, I don't have too many more questions for you, but I do

6 want to go back to that day where you said the grave in Glogova was being

7 dug and go over something that you mentioned before. You said that this

8 ULT loader from the brick factory showed up and that you had concerns over

9 it not being able to dig very well. And did you contact anyone regarding

10 that ULT, the problem with the ULT digging?

11 A. I told Colonel Beara that this wasn't a place where this machine

12 could be used to dig. I said it wouldn't be able to be done in this way.

13 Q. Do you remember how you told him? Did you see him in person, did

14 you get him on the phone, did you pass on a message? How did that all

15 happen, if you remember?

16 A. I personally told him this in his office when we discussed

17 machinery used for digging.

18 Q. And what day was that? Was that the day that the digging started

19 or another day?

20 A. That was when we had this discussion in the office about digging

21 the grave.

22 Q. All right. And when you told him about the ULT problems, did he

23 have any solution that he told you about?

24 A. No. He said that the machine could be used for digging and that I

25 should attempt to do so. We tried to dig, we realised that it wouldn't

Page 9388

1 work, and then I can no longer remember how I informed the Colonel that

2 the machine couldn't be used to dig. He said we should find a -- an

3 excavator from the Zvornik Brigade.

4 Q. Okay. And the day that you began to dig, did an excavator arrive,

5 besides that ULT?

6 A. After I had informed him, after I had briefed the Colonel and told

7 him that this machine couldn't be used, sometime in the evening -- or

8 rather, in the afternoon, from Konjevic Polje -- or rather Kravica, a

9 backhoe excavator arrived in Glogova at the site that was to be dug.

10 Q. All right. Now, you also mentioned on Friday that bodies were

11 collected by the utility workers up along the road from the

12 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. Can you tell us, do you know how many

13 bodies were retrieved from the area of the intersection at Konjevic Polje?

14 A. At the crossroads in Konjevic Polje, I think there were between 10

15 and 15 bodies. I saw this with my very own eyes when I was down there.

16 Q. Can you tell us where it -- at the crossroads, and the Court is, I

17 believe, familiar with that new gas station that's there and the new

18 church that is across the road from the gas station.

19 A. At the site in front of the church across the road from the petrol

20 station, that's where it was. I think there were also a few bodies at the

21 location where the petrol station is now situated.

22 Q. Okay. And along with those 10 to 15 bodies, do you know roughly

23 how many other bodies were collected along the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac

24 road that were brought to Glogova?

25 A. I don't know the exact number, but I think --

Page 9389

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, you need to repeat your answer because the

3 interpreters couldn't hear you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I don't know the exact

5 number, but I think that a FAB-13 was full -- an FAP-13 was full when it

6 arrived in Glogova. People would load them on manually, those who were

7 responsible for collecting the bodies.

8 Q. So can you give us a rough figure of how many bodies you think

9 would fit in this FAP-13 truck?

10 A. I couldn't say anything off the top of my head. I wasn't paying

11 much attention. I didn't count the bodies, so as these people were dead,

12 I wouldn't like to say anything off the top of my head.

13 Q. All right. You had also mentioned on Friday that there were

14 corpses in Bratunac next to the school. Which school are you talking

15 about?

16 A. The Vuk Karadzic school, which is across the municipality --

17 across the road from the municipality building.

18 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you a diagram that you've seen before.

19 On e-court it's 65 ter 1553. It's an aerial image of Bratunac with some

20 yellow markings that you saw in my office the other day. Did you confirm

21 that those yellow markings indicating various places were the correct

22 locations, they were marked correctly?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. If we can blow this image up to the school complex, which

25 is the series of arrows on the right. Another shot, if you could. Okay.

Page 9390

1 And could I ask you, there is a marker where you can actually mark

2 on this picture. Sorry. She'll take care of you, the usher will take of

3 you on this. And, first of all, can you tell me, did you actually go to

4 the school that day and see bodies?

5 A. I didn't go to the school, and I didn't see any bodies in the

6 school.

7 Q. How about around the school? Did you actually see some bodies

8 around --

9 A. I saw five or six bodies in front of the school. When I say in

10 front of the school, that means by the road in the direction of the

11 municipality.

12 Q. Can you just put an X where you saw these five or six bodies in

13 front of the school, if you can make it out from this image?

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Okay. And could you put your -- your number -- your pseudonym

16 number, which is PW-161, just in the right corner of the image, so that we

17 know that you've done this.

18 A. P?

19 Q. Yeah, PW-161.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And the date, which is 26 March.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. And can you tell us what -- what day you saw these five or six

24 bodies by the school? Was it in relation to the day that the -- the grave

25 was begun digging? Was it that day or another day?

Page 9391

1 A. I think it was on that day. But when the digging started on that

2 occasion, these bodies were transported to the grave in Glogova, but

3 Milivoje Cvetinovic, the driver, who had transported the bodies, said

4 there were more bodies than the ones that I had seen, bodies that he had

5 collected.

6 Q. Did he indicate to you where those additional bodies were located?

7 A. No. He just said that there were more of them.

8 Q. Did he give you any kind of a number or estimate of how many more

9 than the five or six you saw?

10 A. All he said is that there a lot more than the number of bodies I

11 had told him I had seen.

12 Q. And did you give you any indication where those bodies were

13 collected?

14 A. In the vicinity of the school.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'm through with that image then. We can save

16 that.

17 And how many days, if you know, was the grave at Glogova being dug

18 and having bodies delivered to it?

19 A. People from the RAD company and the civilian protection were

20 involved in digging the graves in Glogova. And, as far as I know, they

21 were involved in this for three days.

22 Q. And how many of those three days were you actually there and

23 present?

24 A. I was present there on all three days, but I didn't spend the

25 entire day there. I'd go to Bratunac to the company. I was also involved

Page 9392

1 in carrying out other tasks.

2 Q. Do you know roughly how many pits were dug in this Glogova site?

3 A. Four pits were dug. To the left of the road there was one large

4 pit and one small grave and to the right there were two smaller graves.

5 Q. Okay. Can you give us just a rough estimate, if you can, of how

6 many bodies were buried in that grave?

7 A. During the three days while I was down there and while people from

8 the utilities company and the civilian protection were there, I think that

9 between four and 500 bodies were buried, although I believe that other

10 bodies were buried subsequently when I was no longer in the area.

11 Q. Okay. And do you have any idea about those -- did you get any

12 reports of how many other bodies were buried at Glogova when you weren't

13 there?

14 A. I don't know exactly.

15 Q. Okay. You testified on Friday that you assumed some of those

16 bodies were from Kravica. Can you tell us more definitively what kind of

17 knowledge, if any, you had about bodies from Kravica being buried at

18 Glogova?

19 A. Well, most of the bodies buried in Glogova, I believe, were from

20 Kravica, because vehicles came from the direction of Kravica and I know

21 that people had been killed around the Zadruga Kravica, and those bodies

22 were transported to Glogova. A FAP-13 lorry that was owned by the

23 utilities company was involved in these activities.

24 Q. It sounds like you've used a word that I haven't heard before, it

25 may be a translation issue, but you said that the people had been killed

Page 9393

1 around the something in Kravica. Can you tell us what you -- what you

2 said?

3 A. I said that I believe that most of the people in -- were -- who

4 were buried in Glogova had been killed in Kravica, because the lorries,

5 one of which was a FAP-13 lorry and was owned by the RAD utilities company

6 in Bratunac, transported these bodies to the site in Glogova.

7 Q. Okay. Does a FAP-13 -- is that a hydraulic dumping ability? Or

8 do you have to unload it by hand?

9 A. Yes, the FAP did have this hydraulic mechanism, so it could tip

10 things out.

11 Q. Okay. And do you recall giving an interview to the OTP in

12 October -- in Banja Luka in October 2000?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did you -- did you basically provide the same account

15 regarding your contacts with Mr. -- or Colonel Beara as you have today?

16 And yesterday -- and Friday?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What was different?

19 A. Well, many things.

20 Q. But I'm just -- I'm just talking about, did you tell the OTP that

21 you had seen Colonel Beara and that he had sent you to the grave, that

22 basic story, did you tell that to Mr. Ruez in October 2000?

23 A. I think I did. But the version was a little different. I made

24 quite a few mistakes. Mr. Ruez, in my opinion, didn't interview me in a

25 correct manner. He said when Srebrenica had fallen, he mentioned the

Page 9394

1 excavations, et cetera. I just confirmed the dates, because even now I

2 don't know the dates. I wasn't keeping track of things. If I had known

3 that I'd find myself in such a situation, perhaps I would have kept a

4 diary.

5 Q. Is it fair to say that in that Banja Luka interview your

6 chronology and your dates were not -- not correct?

7 A. It's not that I became confused, but it has nothing to do with

8 what I told you and what I said on Friday and what I'm saying now. The

9 chronology of events isn't such as it was described, the dates -- well, at

10 the time and when I last testified I also asked everyone not to discuss

11 dates because I really cannot remember any dates.

12 Q. Okay. And you also testified in April of 2004. Were you able to

13 give the basic -- your basic account of seeing Colonel Beara and going --

14 going to the Glogova site -- did you testify about that basic information

15 in 2004?

16 A. Yes, but again, I made a mistake or I failed to notice something.

17 It appeared that Colonel Beara told me a day before all of that happened

18 that the grave should be dug, but that's not true, that's not how things

19 happened. So that's why I want this to be corrected, what I said to you

20 should be corrected. I don't want to offend anyone. I came here to tell

21 the truth. I don't want any falsehoods to be stated.

22 Q. So have you had a chance in the last few days to really think

23 about this chronology and get it straight in your mind?

24 A. Yes, and what I told you, in fact, represents the actual

25 chronology of events. The events in Glogova -- or rather Kravica.

Page 9395

1 Q. Okay. And does that include your -- the testimony from Friday and

2 today, does that reflect the proper chronology of events?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And did you actually help yourself with that chronology by

5 writing out some notes in the last -- well, a few days ago, to help get

6 that chronology straight in your head?

7 A. No, I didn't write out any notes.

8 Q. Well, let me try remind you. Do you remember the -- providing us

9 with some handwritten -- an account, I don't know if notes is the right

10 word, but just a brief chronology to help refresh your recollection about

11 it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. And if you need those -- that outline to help you in

14 any way, just let us know, but did those -- writing it out help you sort

15 out the chronology for your testimony?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. And in the previous trial in 2004 you -- you did

18 testify about seeing the -- the -- I believe the Kravica execution. But

19 you did not tell Mr. Ruez about that in October 2000. Can you tell us, if

20 you know, why you didn't tell Mr. Ruez about the -- about seeing the

21 Kravica execution when you saw him in Banja Luka? I think the same

22 question was asked of you at the last trial.

23 A. Well, I didn't tell him about that, because he didn't ask me about

24 it. That's number one. And then secondly, I avoided telling anyone about

25 that because I was quite simply afraid of those stories about killings,

Page 9396

1 about discussing these executions with people who didn't know about them

2 or with people whom I thought did not know about them.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you, Witness.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

6 Who is going first? Mr. Ostojic.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Mr. President. I think I will.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I mean usually we let you decide who

9 will go after who.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Then I have decided I will go first.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

12 Mr. Ostojic is lead counsel for Colonel Beara, Witness.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness. Sir, today --

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. Sir, today we're going to spend a little time discussing these

17 mistakes that you have been kind enough to tell us you've made and why you

18 make these mistakes and I think we all have a theory as to why mistakes

19 are made when recollecting certain facts that may or may not appeared, but

20 before I do that, sir, I would like to ask you a little bit more about

21 your background and I want to talk about 1992. Were you the person who

22 was in charge of the burial operation in 1992 in Bratunac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And who put you in charge in 1992 of the burial of -- or the

25 digging of graves and the burial of men in Bratunac?

Page 9397

1 A. The military department of Bratunac.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, I would like you to use your good

3 judgement to identify when we need to go into private session. I, for

4 example, just wish to know whether this question, for example, in itself

5 would identify him to several people.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not sure that it would, but I think we're safe

7 to proceed in open session, but if it's borderline, I will certainly fall

8 back to private session.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 What do you think, Mr. McCloskey?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's -- it's getting close. But, as you know,

12 this is a troublesome area. But I -- I think...

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed for the time being.

14 Go ahead, Mr. Ostojic. And as I said, please use your good

15 judgement, both of you, and we are at your disposal.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: Of course. Thank you.

17 Q. Sir, in 1992 when you were in charge of digging of these graves

18 for the burial, can you tell us what ethnic group was buried in those

19 graves in 1992?

20 A. Muslims.

21 Q. And how many people were buried in those graves?

22 A. There was just one grave, a mass grave. And I believe between a

23 hundred and 150 bodies were buried there all together.

24 Q. Could you share with us the time of machinery you used in 1992 to

25 bury these Muslim men from Bratunac?

Page 9398

1 A. I'm afraid I did not understand you. Are you talking about

2 digging the pit itself? When you mention the type of equipment, what did

3 you have in mind? What did you have in mind when you said equipment?

4 Digging the earth or burying the bodies? What did you mean?

5 Q. Sir, were you in charge of digging the actual graves or the pits,

6 as you call them, in 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Well, what machines or machinery did you use in 1992 to dig these

9 pits?

10 A. I believe that it was an ULT machine that we used. It was a

11 loader excavator that was digging that pit in a field on the left-hand

12 side of the Drina.

13 Q. Was that near or about the area known as Glogova?

14 A. No, no. It was some 10 or 11 kilometres away from Glogova.

15 Q. Do you remember, sir, in 2000, after your interview, your first

16 interview with Mr. Ruez, do you remember taking him to a site in Glogova

17 and telling him that this was the same area where Bosnian Muslims were

18 buried in 1992?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: There's no facts in the record regarding that.

21 But I guess the witness can sort it out. I'll withdraw that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. Again -- I think so as well.

23 Go ahead, if you can answer that question, Witness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You've lost me. Can I hear the

25 question again, please? I'm a bit confused.

Page 9399


2 Q. I asked you, sir, if you remember, after your interview with Mr.

3 Ruez on October 13th, 2000, did you remember taking him or going with him

4 to a site in Glogova and telling him that this was the same area where

5 Bosnian Muslims were buried in 1992?

6 A. After the interview in Banja Luka, actually a few months later, I

7 went to the Glogova locality with Mr. Ruez, but I never told him that in

8 1992 Muslim bodies had been buried in Glogova. Because after Glogova I

9 took Mr. Ruez to the locality where the 100 to 150 Muslim bodies had been

10 buried in 1992.

11 Q. Where were these Bosnian Muslims in 1992, where were they killed?

12 Do you know?

13 A. Yes. They were killed in the Vuk Karadzic elementary school.

14 Q. And that's the same school that the Bosnian Muslims were held or

15 the area where you claim you saw bodies in front of the school in 1995,

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, sir, can you tell me who was in charge of digging the graves

19 in 1995?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is getting to the -- a little more close to

22 the problematic area.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: If he thinks so, we can go into private session for

24 this.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so too, actually. I almost -- it's as if he

Page 9400

1 could read my mind. So let's go into private session for a short while.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

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Page 9403

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21 [Open session]

22 MR. OSTOJIC: I will repeat the question, if the Court allows.

23 Q. Sir, we're back in open session, so we'll be careful, if you don't

24 mind. Can you tell me what your relationship was with Momir Nikolic?

25 A. Well, it was a good relationship, a friendly relationship. We

Page 9404

1 were pals, we had grown up in the same town, we had lived close to each

2 other for a number of years. I don't know what else to tell you.

3 Q. That's good enough. How about Vidoje Blagojevic, what was your

4 relationship with him?

5 A. Vidoje Blagojevic is a special story when it comes to our

6 relationship. From the very young age, from the first class of elementary

7 school to the end of the secondary school, we were growing up together, we

8 played together, we went to the military school together. We had an

9 exceptional relationship. We were friends, we were mates, we had an

10 excellent relationship.

11 Q. Miroslav Deronjic --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment.

13 Mr. McCloskey, this last statement.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Again, I think we are all right. There's many

15 people that fit that description, but the answers, of course, are hard to

16 predict.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. I apologise to you, Mr. Ostojic.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: That's okay.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We have an extra job to do. Okay. Thank you.


21 Q. Sir, what about Miroslav Deronjic, what was your relationship with

22 him in 1995?

23 A. Good. Better than the one I had with Momir Nikolic. We were

24 members of the same party, we socialised, we cooperated.

25 Q. When you say the same party, would that be the SDS party?

Page 9405

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you ever a member of the Radical Party?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Can you tell me what your relationship is with a gentleman by the

5 name of Srbislav Davidovic?

6 A. Extremely good.

7 Q. Okay. How about Luka Markovic?

8 A. Luka Markovic is nothing but an acquaintance.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. If we can just go into private session to

10 follow up on a couple issues?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Certainly, Mr. Ostojic. Thank you for

12 pointing that out. Let's go into private session, please.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9406











11 Pages 9406-9407 redacted. Private session















Page 9408

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Sir, I want to ask you a little follow-up question that was asked

8 today as a result of your testimony on Friday from my learned friend from

9 the Office of the Prosecutor. You said to him that you assumed that the

10 bodies came from Kravica, and then you gave us some explanation today, but

11 my concrete question is this, sir: Were you ever at Kravica and on the

12 premises of the Kravica compound where the massacres occurred?

13 A. You mean on the day when the massacre actually took place, whether

14 I was there on the day?

15 Q. Let's break it down. Any time immediately prior, during or after

16 the massacre at Kravica on the 13th of July, 1995.

17 A. Again, I am not discussing any dates, but I was there on that day,

18 actually, I was passing through Kravica on the way to Konjevic Polje, and

19 I did see the killings.

20 Q. Okay. The incident or killings that you saw, sir, you described

21 that to us. You were in your car, you never left your car, you saw that

22 on the road. My specific question is, were you physically on the Kravica

23 warehouse premises when this incident occurred on that day or any -- or

24 the day after, for example?

25 A. No.

Page 9409

1 Q. So am I correct, sir, that if people like Momir Nikolic say that

2 they saw you right on the Kravica compound immediately after these

3 incidents at Kravica, they would be mistaken, correct?

4 A. They wouldn't be telling the truth. I don't know whether they

5 would be mistaken. It's up to you to decide.

6 Q. I will go with not telling the truth, sir. Let me ask you this:

7 What about Ljupko Ilic, what if he said he saw you actually physically on

8 the Kravica compound immediately after the incident that we discussed 13th

9 of July, 1995, would he be, as you said, "wouldn't be telling the truth"?

10 Would he also not be telling the truth if he said that?

11 A. Ljupko Ilic could have seen me in the compound of the cooperative

12 a few days following the incident when I was in charge of the people who

13 came with the cisterns and they were washing the enclosed area where the

14 people had been interred. He could not have seen me anytime before that

15 and I sincerely doubt that Ljupko was even there around that time.

16 Q. Let me ask you about Luka Markovic. What his job, if you

17 remember, in July 1995 at Kravica?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Do you know if he was a director or manager of that whole facility

20 or compound?

21 A. The director of that cooperative was Jovan Nikolic. It could not

22 have been Luka, what did you say his family name was? He could not have

23 been. Because Jovan Nikolic was the director of that cooperative of that

24 compound.

25 Q. The last name just to help you how the out is Markovic. But the

Page 9410

1 question I have to you is this. What if both Jovan Nikolic and Luka

2 Markovic stated that they saw you at the actual compound, Kravica,

3 immediately following the incident that we've described as Kravica, July

4 13th, 1995. Would they also not be telling the truth, sir?

5 A. I've told you once and I'll repeat it. They could have seen me a

6 few days, five or six days after the incident when I was there with some

7 men, with two cisterns, and with the men who were washing the enclosed

8 area. During the actual killings, I told you where I was and I have

9 repeated it again today.

10 Q. Thank you for that and we'll get to try to put this all in context

11 here for us. Sir, can you --

12 MR. OSTOJIC: It might be time for the break, but I'm at your

13 disposal.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can take the break now, yes. Thank you.

15 25 minutes, please.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Sir, the last question that we were discussing with you, I believe

21 in open session, was immediately following the incident that we've

22 described as Kravica, July 13th, 1995, if you could just concretely tell

23 us when exactly after you witnessed that incident were you actually on the

24 Kravica compound for the first time?

25 A. A minute ago I said, and I'll say it again, as far as the

Page 9411

1 agricultural cooperative is concerned, as far as the Kravica compound is

2 concerned, well I wasn't there, I was at the asphalt road on the way

3 towards Konjevic Polje.

4 Q. So -- and I understand that part of your story. But after that

5 day, at any time after that, and I thought you said several days but I

6 wanted to be more precise or as precise as possible. When, if at all, did

7 you actually go on to that Kravica compound where the incident occurred

8 that you witnessed on the 13th of July?

9 A. After that date I didn't go there immediately. But three, four,

10 five days later, that's when I went there. When we were washing the open

11 space where these people had been killed.

12 Q. Okay. And I just -- I'm going to direct your attention to your

13 testimony, or your interview that you gave to Mr. Ruez on the 13th of

14 October, 2000. Specifically page 22. You and Mr. Ruez were discussing

15 finding and transporting of the bodies towards Glogova from Kravica. And

16 then he asked you this question on line 5, if I could just read it. It

17 says, "JR --" which I think is Jean-Rene Ruez. "Did you go further than

18 this agricultural complex towards Konjevic Polje or did you stop there and

19 then return to Glogova?"

20 Your answer, sir, on line 7 is, "That day I went only to Kravica."

21 Can you explain to me, sir, why it is, if you were not at Kravica, why

22 did you tell Mr. Ruez that that day the only place you were at was

23 actually Kravica?

24 A. I haven't understood you very well. If I wasn't in Kravica, why

25 did I say I was only in Kravica? I did tell Mr. Ruez that I had been in

Page 9412

1 Kravica and that I didn't go any further. But I did go to Konjevic Polje

2 on that day when I saw the killings and on the following day, when we did

3 the digging, I also passed through Kravica on that day and continued as

4 far as Konjevic Polje.

5 Q. Well, just to flush it out, and I'm sorry, but I just have a

6 nagging question about this. Your answer was this: "That day I went only

7 to Kravica."

8 I read that to mean that the only place you were that day, after

9 the incident of the 13th of July, 1995, the only place you were at was at

10 actually the Kravica compound. Am I mistaken in that?

11 A. You're not mistaken when you say that that's what I told Mr. Ruez.

12 But you showed after the fact that I made a mistake or that I failed to

13 mention something.

14 Q. Okay. [French on English Channel]?

15 A. I told the representative of the Prosecution everything, the whole

16 truth, the entire chronological order of events, so I believe that

17 everything is quite clear.

18 Q. We'll clear it up even further, I hope. Sir, my question to you

19 is did you, -- and we got a note from my learned colleague that you

20 reviewed both your interview with Mr. Ruez got and your proofing note from

21 Mr. Karnavas, as well as your testimony in the Blagojevic case and they

22 were true and accurate. Did you tell that the Prosecutor at any given

23 time?

24 A. I apologise. Could you repeat that question?

25 Q. Sure. You had an opportunity to review your statement from Mr.

Page 9413

1 Ruez the 13th of October, 2000, correct? Prior to your testimony here

2 this week?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you also had an opportunity to review the testimony you gave

5 under oath in the Blagojevic case, (redacted)

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you inform the Prosecutor, after reviewing those

9 statements or interviews that you gave, that they were true and accurate?

10 A. I told the Prosecution where the mistakes were. I corrected

11 myself and told the entire truth. I told them about what I could

12 remember. I didn't want to speculate about things I could not remember.

13 And I didn't want to make any very rough assessments to say things that

14 weren't true.

15 Q. Well, share with us, because my learned colleague was kind enough

16 to share one correction that you made, and then changed and then remade

17 again. But sure with us the other mistakes or errors that you found in

18 both your interview as well as your sworn testimony in the Blagojevic

19 case. What did you tell the Prosecutor?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Before he answers, Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Ostojic, I

21 am -- don't know if we had agreed on Friday that any reference to the fact

22 that he has testified in Blagojevic was to be in private session. I don't

23 recall really, but perhaps you can think about it.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: Well --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We are still in time to redact in any case.

Page 9414

1 MR. OSTOJIC: We should probably just redact the date, but there

2 were many people, obviously, who testified. Just because if we give the

3 day, he did testify on that specific day.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's true, Mr. Ostojic, on the other hand, I mean,

5 I don't suppose there are many others who testified on the same substance,

6 same role.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Quite the contrary, Your Honour. But we'll flesh

8 that out in due course. Yes, there were. There were quite a few.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, you agree with Mr. Ostojic?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: As you can imagine, Bratunac and the goings on was

11 a much bigger issue than it will be at this trial, I hope. So there is --

12 there is a fair amount of information. But it is -- it's close.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

14 Go ahead.


16 Q. Yes. Mr. Witness, I was asking you if you could highlight for us

17 some of the discrepancies or mistakes that you found that you shared with

18 the Prosecutor in your interview and your testimony in that other case.

19 A. Well, I noticed that there were some erroneous dates. Mr. Ruez

20 conducted the interview. He asked me whether Srebrenica fell on the 11th,

21 I said yes, he said did this happen on the 12th, I said yes, he asked me,

22 did Colonel Beara ask -- phone you at such and such a date, and I said

23 yes. I saw that I had made mistakes as far as those dates are concerned,

24 as far as the chronology of events was concerned or perhaps the chronology

25 of events was not that erroneous, but the dates were completely wrong.

Page 9415

1 And a minute ago I mentioned other things that I had noticed.

2 I noticed that I had stated that Colonel Beara, a day prior to the

3 killings, called me and asked me about the machines and about an order to

4 excavate. But that's not how things happened. Any mistakes I noticed I

5 corrected and we went through the chronology of events with the

6 Prosecution, and we removed the mistakes that had been made.

7 Q. Okay. And any other mistakes that you can highlight for us that

8 you can recall at this time?

9 A. I can't remember anything else at this point in time. You could

10 put questions to me and then I could answer them.

11 Q. I appreciate that. I hope to. I found that you had given the

12 Office of the Prosecutor on these issues no less than five or six

13 different versions of your story. Would I be correct?

14 A. Could you tell me which five or six versions you have in mind? I

15 don't know which versions you are referring to, it's not clear.

16 Q. Not my versions. They were your versions. For example the first

17 version I that have that you gave to Mr. Ruez on October 13th, 2000, was

18 that you claimed Mr. Beara in your first contact and conversation with

19 him, was before the enclave fell and before the incident at Kravica.

20 The second version that we have is your testimony in that other

21 case in April of 2004, where you changed, ever so slightly, your story and

22 said the conversation happened after the fall of Srebrenica but before the

23 Kravica warehouse incident.

24 Your third version, sir, was just recent when you met with the

25 Prosecutor on March 20th, 2007. At that time you told the Prosecutor, at

Page 9416

1 least from information that they provided to us, that your purported

2 conversation with Mr. Beara was after the enclave fell and after the

3 Kravica incident. That was March 20th, 2007.

4 Then a day later, apparently in another conversation you had with

5 the Prosecutor, the fourth version of your story, you now say that it was

6 before the Kravica killings. That was on March 21st, 2007.

7 And then we have the fifth version of your story, sir, that you

8 testified in part on Friday and here today, Monday, that your meeting and

9 conversation with Mr. Beara was supposedly on -- took place after the

10 incident at Kravica.

11 Can you tell me why, sir, you have so many different versions to

12 this purported meeting that you had with Mr. Beara in July of 1995?

13 A. I think the third and the fifth version that you have just read

14 out are the same. But why did I make so many things up, well, so many

15 things happened in the war and after the war. And as a result it wasn't

16 possible for me to register many things. If I knew that I'd find myself

17 in this situation, I would have kept records in a different manner. I

18 would have paid more attention to certain facts. But when it comes to

19 Banja Luka and Mr. Ruez, I would be grateful if you didn't put too many

20 questions to me about that. I said that in my opinion, he conducted the

21 interview in a faulty manner, at least in my opinion, he mentioned dates

22 that I would then confirm, so the procedure was chaotic.

23 Later when I read all this through, I realised that there was one

24 mistake after the other.

25 Q. Well, I can't promise you that I won't go over the Ruez interview,

Page 9417

1 sir. But I can tell you that I find some fault with Mr. Ruez also.

2 However, I can tell you this: That in the interview of October 13th,

3 2000, Mr. Ruez did not suggest dates to you; it was you, sir, who decided

4 to testify based on events and not dates. It was you who initially, sir,

5 said that the conversation that you had with Mr. Beara was prior to the

6 enclave falling and prior to the incident at Kravica.

7 A. When I say that I made a mistake, does that mean anything to you,

8 when I say that that's not correct? It's not correct to say that I

9 provided the dates. Mr. Ruez mentioned the dates and all I did was

10 confirm them.

11 Q. Okay. Let's for a moment, if you could try to be cooperative with

12 me, forget about the dates. Were you not using certain incidents that

13 occurred in July 1995 as milestones to discuss when something may or may

14 not have happened? For example, for us, it doesn't really matter if the

15 Srebrenica enclave fell on the 5th of July or the 25th of July. The

16 critical point is that the Srebrenica enclave fell, correct?

17 A. That's quite natural.

18 Q. So when you tell Mr. Ruez that you had the meeting prior to or

19 before the fall of the enclave, it really doesn't matter if Mr. Ruez said

20 it was the 11th, the 12th, or any other date for that matter; isn't that

21 true?

22 A. I would now like to ask you, when did Srebrenica fall? Even to

23 this day I don't know whether it was on the 11th or 12th or the 13th.

24 Q. We covered that with Mr. Karnavas. The 11th of July, 1995, is the

25 date that we're using as the correct date of the fall of Srebrenica, if I

Page 9418

1 can share that information.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Actually, that's not necessarily correct. The

3 date that Srebrenica fell is -- is debatable.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's part of the problem.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: We'll move on.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.


9 Q. Sir --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think let's move on.


12 Q. Now, in your interview with Mr. Ruez, sir, do you remember that

13 you did not tell him that you met Mr. Beara on two occasions but on only

14 one occasion?

15 A. I remember that we mentioned the fact that I had met him, but as

16 to whether I said it was on one occasion or on two occasions....

17 Q. Well, you never mentioned to him that you had this second meeting

18 with him; isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you tell the Prosecutor how it was that you all of a sudden

21 remembered that there was this supposed second meeting with Mr. Beara at

22 1.00 or 2.00 in the morning?

23 A. Well, it's not as if I remembered it all of a sudden. It's just

24 that it's not something I mentioned to Mr. Ruez.

25 Q. Because he failed --

Page 9419

1 A. This isn't the first time I told the Prosecution about that. I

2 also mentioned the fact that at the Blagojevic hearing when I testified.

3 Q. Is it your testimony that Mr. Ruez didn't ask you if you had more

4 than one contact with Mr. Beara on or about July 1995?

5 A. Well, he didn't ask me about that.

6 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that you told Mr. Ruez, that after the

7 first contact you had with Mr. Beara that you saw him in the following

8 days only once, and it was maybe two or three days after your first

9 meeting. Do you remember discussing that at all with Mr. Ruez?

10 A. I remember that.

11 Q. In fact, sir, you told Mr. Ruez that very thing, did you not?

12 That you only had one contact with Mr. Beara and the next time that you

13 saw him and did not have contact with him was two or three days later at

14 the Hotel Fontana, correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now --

17 A. I'm not denying having said that to Mr. Ruez. But I'm saying that

18 I made some mistakes as far as the order of events was concerned, as far

19 as whom I saw when and where. I didn't mention the certain meeting and so

20 on and so forth.

21 Q. Well, sir, it's more than just that you didn't mention it, you

22 told Mr. Ruez specifically the next time you had contact with Mr. Beara,

23 after the first contact, was two or three days later when you just

24 happened to see him at the Hotel Fontana, correct?

25 A. I didn't say that we had contact. I had just seen the Colonel in

Page 9420

1 the Fontana Hotel. We didn't have any contact, though.

2 Q. According to my review and study of your versions of this story,

3 the first time you mentioned this second purported meeting with Mr. Beara

4 was to the Blagojevic Defence team, correct? Four years after Mr. Ruez's

5 interview with you.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Let's focus a little bit our attention on the meeting or meetings

8 you had with the Defence team of Mr. Vidoje Blagojevic. How many times

9 did you meet with them or any member of their team prior to your

10 testimony?

11 A. I don't know. I don't know.

12 Q. Do you know if it was more than five times?

13 A. I don't know. I didn't keep any records.

14 Q. Was Mr. Celanovic ever present during any of your meetings with

15 the Blagojevic Defence team?

16 A. I'm not sure.

17 Q. How about Mr. Davidovic, was he present, sir?

18 A. This is all new, what you're asking me about, whether someone was

19 with me or not.

20 Q. I know. I think of myself as being somewhat unique and original

21 from time to time. But let me ask you an open-ended question: Who, if

22 anyone else from Bratunac, was present at the meetings that you were at

23 with the Defence team of Mr. Blagojevic?

24 A. You mean here in The Hague or when they went to Bratunac?

25 Q. Okay. Let's start with here in The Hague in 2004.

Page 9421

1 A. Well, I was on my own. No one was ever with me when I had

2 meetings with the Blagojevic Defence.

3 Q. How about back in Bratunac, who was with you when you met with the

4 Defence team --

5 A. I don't think anyone was present with me in Bratunac, either.

6 That's why you confused me when you asked me about who was present at

7 those meetings. Only I was present in The Hague and I think that was also

8 in -- the case in Bratunac. One or two occasions -- well, on one occasion

9 I think Mr. Karnavas was present and I was alone with Ms. Suzana.

10 Q. Prior to interviewing or giving an interview with Mr. Ruez in

11 October of 2000, did you discuss the prospects of your interview with

12 anyone?

13 A. I didn't.

14 Q. Okay. Prior to you being called as a Defence witness in the

15 Blagojevic case, did you discuss your testimony with anyone other than the

16 Defence team of Mr. Blagojevic?

17 A. Well, there were discussions with Mr. Deronjic, with

18 Mr. Momir Nikolic, because they had been in Banja Luka before me. I asked

19 them whether I was mentioned in any sort of context, they said no, no one

20 has mentioned you. So I was a little angry with them, because they didn't

21 say that I had been mentioned, that my name had been mentioned down there.

22 Q. And just so I have it right, was this meeting or these discussions

23 that you had with Mr. Deronjic and Mr. Nikolic, did that occur also prior

24 to your giving an interview to Mr. Ruez in October of 2000?

25 A. Yes, because they had seen Mr. Ruez before me.

Page 9422

1 Q. And that's what I thought, but I want to make sure it's clear.

2 Because in -- on page 48, lines 8 through 10, when I asked you what I

3 thought was that question, you answered a certain way, but we can move on.

4 Sir, isn't it true that prior to your interview on the 13th of

5 October --

6 A. I can't hear.

7 Q. I'll try to speak louder. Prior to your interview with Mr. Ruez

8 on the 13th of October, 2000, you met with Mr. Nikolic to discuss what it

9 was that you were going to testify about, correct?

10 A. No. I met with Mr. Nikolic, and I asked him about what we were

11 discussing a minute ago. I asked him whether anyone had mentioned my

12 name, and if so, in what context my name had been mentioned. He said no

13 one had mentioned it. I didn't -- I hadn't received a summons to testify,

14 I didn't even know I would be coming here at the time. Rather, when I

15 spoke to Mr. Nikolic on that occasion, I didn't know that I would be going

16 to Banja Luka.

17 Q. And how many days prior to the interview with Mr. Ruez did you

18 speak with Mr. Nikolic? Momir Nikolic, just so the record is very clear.

19 A. I can't remember. All I know is that when I came from Banja Luka,

20 I phoned Mr. Nikolic and asked him to come and see me in my office. I

21 told him that Mr. Ruez sent his greetings and I asked him why he hadn't

22 responded to the second summons. He said he hadn't received it. And

23 that's what happened.

24 Q. Just -- let me read this out to you from your interview with

25 Mr. Ruez. On page 33, for my learned friend. On line 19 -- I'll strike

Page 9423

1 that.

2 On line 22 again Mr. Ruez asked you, "Did you meet him," meaning

3 Mr. Momir Nikolic, "at any moment during the days we discussed here?

4 Momir Nikolic," is exactly what's written.

5 Your answer on line 24 and 25, sir, said, "I didn't see him but

6 the answer was I saw him three days ago. We were having coffee." This is

7 from your interview of the 13th of October, 2000. Is it true, is all I'm

8 asking you, sir, that you actually saw and met with Mr. Momir Nikolic

9 three days prior to your interview on the 13th of October, 2000?

10 A. Well, okay. Let's say three days, four days. If I said I had

11 coffee, that's probably true.

12 Q. Now, tell me how many days prior to your interview with Mr. Ruez

13 in October 2000 did you meet with Mr. Deronjic?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. Was anyone else present with you and Mr. Nikolic three days prior

16 to your interview with Mr. Ruez?

17 A. I'm not sure, I don't know.

18 Q. Sir, in your interview on the 13th of October, am I correct that

19 you denied that you were given a request to collect bodies of prisoners

20 who had been killed in and around the detention facilities in the Bratunac

21 town, did you not? You denied that, correct?

22 A. Please repeat.

23 Q. Sure. In your interview of the 13th of October, 2000, you at that

24 time, sir, denied that you were given a request to collect bodies of

25 prisoners who had been killed in and around the detention facilities in

Page 9424

1 Bratunac town, correct?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Request if that is -- it's got a line and page for

4 that, I would appreciate it being used because it does not -- it's not a

5 reflection of my recollection.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fair enough. I'm sure Mr. Ostojic can do

7 that.

8 Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: I could, but I would first like to hear the answer

10 from the witness. But if the Court wants me to do it the reverse order,

11 I'll do it.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is that the opposite party,

14 Mr. McCloskey, ought to be in the position to follow the witness's

15 answer. After that, he has been directed to the -- to the reference. I

16 mean --

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- of course you will repeat your question and

19 without any discussions taking place, he can refer to the excerpt.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Page 11, lines 20 through 23.

21 Q. Can you answer my question, sir? I've asked it twice. Do you

22 want me to ask it again?

23 THE INTERPRETER: He is waiting for the interpretation.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is waiting for the interpretation? I see. I

25 think you need to repeat your question.

Page 9425

1 MR. OSTOJIC: I will.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think for everybody's benefit.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: Sure.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


6 Q. For the third time, Mr. Witness, in your interview on the 13th of

7 October, 2000, did you at that time deny that you were given a request to

8 collect bodies of prisoners who had been killed in and around the

9 detention facilities in Bratunac town?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Why don't you read out the question and the answer

11 that he gave.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll explain it quite candidly, Your Honour, because

14 I think it's important that these issues we specifically hear from the

15 witness first in order to be able to weigh and evaluate his credibility,

16 quite candidly, but I'll read it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: He's answered you in the sense he you doesn't

18 recall, so --

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. Fair enough.

20 Q. Now, to refresh your recollection, sir, if we could have 1D167 on

21 the ELMO, page 11.

22 While that's coming up, maybe I can ask another question, because

23 it comes right after that, if you don't mind.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have the text in front of you, I don't think

25 we need to see it. If you read it slowly, then it can be interpreted and

Page 9426

1 we don't need to waste time to have it uploaded.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.

3 Q. Sir, here is the question Mr. Ruez asked you in October 2000, "In

4 Bratunac town, did you have any request also to, had the RAD, R-a-d,

5 company also requested to collect the bodies of prisoners who had been

6 killed in and around the detention facilities in Bratunac town?" End quote

7 for Mr. Ruez.

8 Your answer on line 23, "No." Do you remember telling him that,

9 sir?

10 A. It is possible, if this has been recorded in this particular way,

11 I must have, if this is what it says.

12 Q. It is what -- it is what it says, but, sir, can you tell us why

13 you were mistaken or why you didn't tell Mr. Ruez the truth about the

14 bodies of prisoners that had been killed in and around the detention

15 facilities in Bratunac town?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That statement is actually -- does not

17 fit the evidence, if we go farther into the interview.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I don't think any of us is in a position

19 to control that. What do you wish to state on that, Mr. Ostojic? And if

20 necessary, we can ask the witness to remove his headphones while we

21 discuss this.

22 MR. OSTOJIC: I totally disagree with my learned friend. If he

23 wants and has an opportunity on redirect, he can flesh all these issues

24 out, which he may have -- and should have done possibly when he met with

25 the witness and before in doing his direct testimony.

Page 9427

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The objection actually goes to the correctness of

2 your question in the first place. In other words, it's being submitted to

3 you that what -- the way you have framed your question does not fit the

4 evidence.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. I'll restate it if the Court feels that way.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have it rephrased and we see whether

7 Mr. McCloskey still objects to it. Otherwise, if we need to discuss it,

8 we will need to discuss it without the presence of the Witness.


10 Q. In fact, sir, I suggest to you that you told Mr. Ruez on the 13th

11 of October, 2000, that as far as you knew, there were no bodies there in

12 Bratunac, did you not?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Well, let's look at 1D167 again. Same page, very next question

15 from Mr. Ruez after you denied that you were given a request to collect

16 bodies of prisoners who had been killed in or around the detention

17 facilities in the Bratunac town. Mr. Ruez asked you this: "There was no

18 request to collect anybody from the Bratunac town?"

19 Your answer, starting on line 25, "In Bratunac, no. As far as I

20 know, there were no bodies there." You go on to give other testimony, but

21 I wanted to focus on that.

22 Do you remember telling Mr. Ruez that, sir?

23 A. It is possible that I did, if this is what it says in here.

24 Q. Sir, can you reconcile that for us? How it is that in October

25 2000 you tell Mr. Ruez as far as you knew, there were no bodies in

Page 9428

1 Bratunac, and then in your testimony here last week that you were actually

2 collecting bodies from the Bratunac town?

3 A. I said.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. The implication in that question does

5 not reflect the reality of the interview.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And, Madam Usher -- I think we need to hear more on

7 this, unless you wish to rephrase your question.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: I refuse to rephrase my question, unless the Court

9 directs me to do so.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just asking you for the time being, but we need

11 to hear more on this because this is a viva voce witness, so we don't come

12 here having read or previous testimonies or statements, we prefer not to.

13 So I think, Madam Usher, you need to ask the witness to remove his

14 headphones, please.

15 And, yes, Mr. McCloskey, could you be more specific, please.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I would direct everyone to

17 page 35, where near the end of this interview where there is a discussion

18 of bodies in Bratunac and that he did say that he got a call to collect

19 bodies from Bratunac. So I have no problem with specific questions

20 regarding the first part that he is talking about, but to imply that he

21 never said anything about bodies from Bratunac until he came to testify

22 would be incorrect. In my view of -- based on what you can see from

23 page -- page -- the end of the interview, page 35. I have no problems

24 with questions on either of those points, but what I think -- I'm -- try

25 to make myself clear.

Page 9429

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: If I could have a line reference, that might help.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I'm sure he will give you that.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Page 35, line 25, and after talking about Bratunac

5 and bodies, he specifically says, "I was told on the phone to collect

6 bodies from the hangar. Whether they were killed there or not, I didn't

7 know."

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: I think, if we flesh it out with the witness, you'll

10 find, and I think my learned friend will agree with me, that in 1992 the

11 bodies of Bosnian Muslims were taken from the hangar and that's the

12 reference made to that. They were taken from the Vuk Karadzic hangar, and

13 I will put the question to the witness specifically.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, then -- yes, Mr. McCloskey.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just read -- read the page, and -- because they're

16 talking, as far as I can see, about the Kravica agricultural complex and

17 Colonel Beara, and I don't think -- hope that agricultural complex was not

18 involved in 1992.

19 .

20 JUDGE PROST: Could we have the page up, please, on the screen?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you still maintain that there is doubt, reading

22 through this page, that the witness could have been talking about 1992

23 events and not 1995 events, the July 1995 events?

24 MR. OSTOJIC: I think that I can put the question with your

25 permission to the witness, so we can clarify, Your Honour.

Page 9430

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But you put that question first and not the one --

2 MR. OSTOJIC: Of course.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- you put before, in which case if he answers

4 affirmatively, then the previous question will not stand.

5 We need to give the witness his statement in B/C/S. Do we have

6 it? Can it be -- come up on the screen or not? Okay. So -- same page,

7 35. Yeah, okay.

8 So, Witness, look at me. I would like you to concentrate on the

9 monitor in front of you where a particular page from your interview with

10 Mr. Ruez should show up. We'll give you time to read that page entirely,

11 please. And then Mr. --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not in Serbian.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. It should -- what I -- what I -- yeah. You

14 have to wait a little bit.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: My microphone is not working but --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Try it again.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm afraid it won't be the same page,

18 Mr. President.

19 MS. FAUVEAU: It's page 39.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 39. It's page 39. I thank you, Madam Fauveau.


22 Q. Did you have an opportunity, sir, to review that page?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want to know -- if I could proceed, Mr. President.

25 I want to know concretely from you, sir, were you told to collect

Page 9431

1 the bodies from the hangar at the Vuk Karadzic School, or only those that

2 you said earlier were laying around the school or lying around the school?

3 A. Your previous question was whether somebody ordered me to collect

4 the bodies in Bratunac. I said no. And the fact is that they didn't,

5 because when you say Bratunac, it's a very general term.

6 As for the courtyard of the Vuk Karadzic School where I saw five

7 or six bodies, the driver who collected the bodies, together with some men

8 from RAD Bratunac company, he told me that there had been a lot more

9 bodies than that. I said this to the Prosecutor, I adhered by that. Your

10 previous question was whether somebody had instructed me to collect bodies

11 around Bratunac, and I know nobody did. Nobody ever said anything about

12 any bodies in the -- in the Bratunac area, because there were none. The

13 only bodies were in the courtyard of the school; that's where the bodies

14 were.

15 Q. Just so that we're clear, we're talking about the school in

16 Bratunac called the Vuk Karadzic School, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now -- and we're also talking specifically about a hangar that I

19 think we saw in that picture that you were shown during your direct exam

20 today. There is a hangar right behind the Vuk Karadzic School, correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Were you told to collect the bodies

23 from the hangar of the Vuk Karadzic School in Bratunac in July of 1995?

24 A. I don't know. I'm not sure whether the hangar of the school came

25 up. The only thing that was ever said was to collect the bodies around

Page 9432

1 the school.

2 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: Do you remember telling Mr. Ruez, and

3 this is page 9, for my learned friend, lines 21 through 23, and it's also

4 in the April 21st, 2004 proofing notes offered by the Defence of

5 Mr. Blagojevic.

6 Do you remember telling Mr. Ruez and Mr. Karnavas that Mr. Beara

7 instructed you to collect both Serb and Muslim dead bodies?

8 A. As far as I can remember, I said that Colonel Beara had told me

9 that there would be dead. I can't quote my words exactly. He said that

10 there would be dead. When he was asked -- when I was asked either by the

11 Prosecutor or by the Defence whether he had ever said who the dead people

12 would be, in other words, whether it would be Serbs or Muslims, I replied

13 that this was never specified. Nobody ever said who the dead people would

14 be, whether they would be Serbs or Muslims or whoever.

15 Q. Okay. Let's look at 1D168, which is the proofing note from the

16 21st of April, 2004.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: And it should not be published, Your Honour, because

18 it does contain the names.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. If we can have the English version as well.

21 Q. It's a one-page document, sir. Do you see where you mention that

22 to Mr. Karnavas at all on that April 21st, 2004 proofing note? It's at

23 the bottom of the page in B/C/S, as well as in English. You see where it

24 starts there with -- right under -- in the last paragraph it

25 says, "Colonel Beara told him that he had to prepare graves in Milici at

Page 9433

1 the Boskit mine that is located there, that Serbian and Muslim casualties

2 were expected." Do you see that? Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that incorrect or correct, sir, that you told the Defence

5 lawyers for Mr. Blagojevic that very fact?

6 A. I'm not sure. This must be a mistake. I believe it's a mistake.

7 Q. Okay. Another mistake. Let's go to the actual meeting or prior

8 to the meeting you claim that occurred with Mr. Beara. I'd like to know,

9 sir, given your five or so different versions of when that happened, not

10 the date of the meeting but if you could be as precise as possible with

11 us, if it happened after the incident at Kravica or before.

12 A. It happened on the day. When the incident in Kravica happened, on

13 that same evening, the meeting took place as well.

14 Q. Now, can you tell us specifically, or let me ask it this way:

15 Isn't it true, at least according to a version of your story, that you

16 received a call at your office sometime after 9.00 or 10.00 and you were

17 informed that, "Some representatives of the army of Republika Srpska,"

18 wanted you to come to the SDS offices of Miroslav Deronjic?

19 A. No, this is not what I stated. This was Miroslav Deronjic's

20 office, but Miroslav Deronjic was not up there when I entered.

21 Q. Okay. I was going to ask you that as well. Who else was at this

22 meeting other than yourself and purportedly Mr. Beara, two army officers

23 who you did not get introduced to and did not know their name, and the two

24 purported military policemen who were standing at the front of the SDS

25 offices? Who else was there?

Page 9434

1 A. Nobody.

2 Q. Do you know where Mr. Deronjic was that night? Did you see him

3 around at all?

4 A. I didn't see him, and I didn't know where he was. I saw him

5 before that but not after.

6 Q. Before in what, a day or two, or before when?

7 A. Before the meeting. I saw him before the meeting.

8 Q. Okay. And how about Mr. Momir Nikolic, did you see him during

9 some of those what I call critical days, the 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th of

10 July? Did you see him anywhere?

11 A. Three or four days or maybe a couple of days. I'm not sure. But

12 as for Momir Nikolic, I did not see him at all.

13 Q. Okay. What about Mr. Simic, did you see him on the 13th, the day

14 that you had this purported meeting with Mr. Beara? Did you see him that

15 day?

16 A. Are you referring to Ljubisa Simic, maybe?

17 Q. I am.

18 A. No, I did not see him.

19 Q. Tell me, with the best of your recollection, sir, when you

20 received the call to go to the SDS offices, who called you and what was

21 said?

22 A. I was called from the building of the municipality. And I was

23 told that I should report to the SDS offices, as Colonel Beara was

24 expecting me there. Because he needed to talk to me, supposedly.

25 Q. Who called you, sir?

Page 9435

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Now, sir, do you remember that you told Mr. Ruez on October of

3 2000, on page 10, lines 19 through 22, that you were, in fact, not

4 specifically told that you were going to go see Mr. Beara but -- and I'll

5 read it to you. You state -- I have the wrong document.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Pardon me, Your Honour.

7 Q. You state at line 19, after he asks you a question, you

8 state, "Actually" -- you state on so it's clear again, page 10, on line

9 19, "Actually whether I was personally informed or someone phoned me, I

10 cannot recall. But I know that someone told me that I should go to the

11 office of the SDS and that I should meet some representatives of the army

12 of the Republika Srpska."

13 Your recollection, I suggest, sir, in 2000, was that you were

14 simply called and you were asked to come to the SDS offices. Now you're

15 telling us that you were told specifically that you should go see Mr.

16 Beara in the SDS offices. Can you reconcile the two for me?

17 A. I don't know how to explain. Let me ask you this: Would you

18 really believe that I went up there just like that, without any prior

19 invitation, without anybody asking me to go there?

20 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that the meeting that you claim happened

21 with Mr. Beara never happened, and that the reason that you have so many

22 versions of not just one aspect of your story, but multiple aspects, is

23 that that meeting never occurred. You did not meet with and did not talk

24 to Mr. Beara on or about July 13th, 1995, after the Kravica incident.

25 That's what I'm suggesting to you, sir.

Page 9436

1 A. Do you think that I'm lying here before this Court? I came here

2 to testify honourably, to tell the truth. Since you have mentioned this,

3 tell me, why, in your opinion, did I invent this order of events and this

4 meeting with Colonel Beara?

5 Q. Mr. Witness, I'd be delighted to tell you what I think, but I

6 think the Court probably would -- or would rather have me reserve that

7 until the closing argument or after you have concluded testifying.

8 I'm, sir, telling you this: You didn't see Nikolic at all during

9 that time. Are you familiar that Momir Nikolic claims that he talked to

10 you and he was with you both at Glogova and at the Kravica compound? Do

11 you remember being asked those questions in the Blagojevic trial?

12 A. As far as Momir Nikolic is concerned, well, that's completely

13 false. As far as the school goes, I said there were 80 or 100 people

14 buried in Halolovici, et cetera. Perhaps Momir acted in this way, but it

15 is the first time I have aheard about this from his statements.

16 Q. Okay. Let 's talk about this Luka Markovic again, and I'm going

17 to ask the Court if I can place it on the ELMO, that specific statement,

18 which is not on e-court, but we do have an ERN number, which starts on

19 0615-9261 through 0615-9267 and we'll be focusing on just quickly two

20 specific pages, if the Court doesn't mind?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Ostojic.

22 MR. OSTOJIC: And we should not publish this.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I quite agree.


25 Q. Sir, I know that you said that Mr. Nikolic's recollection was -- I

Page 9437

1 think you said was an untruth or a lie, but we have it on the record. I

2 want to ask you about Mr. Luka Markovic. Do you see his statement in

3 front of you on the ELMO, sir?

4 MR. OSTOJIC: Maybe a little lower so we can see his name.

5 Q. Do you see his name there, Luka Markovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And if we go to the next page, or the second to the last page of

8 that document -- I'm sorry?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We are seeing the English.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: I know. If I can have the document and then I can

11 perhaps -- it's my fault, Your Honour, because I failed to put that

12 document in e-court because I wasn't sure what the witness would say.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a B/C/S translation of that.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Not in my possession, Your Honour, but I'm sure it

15 exists. But we'll direct -- we can read it, it's very quick.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I still say let's put it on the ELMO again.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Once more and you direct us to the relevant part.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: I will.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And you read it out in a -- slowly so that it can be

21 follow by the interpreters and then you put your question.

22 MR. OSTOJIC: If we can scroll to the bottom so that we could have

23 a frame of reference.

24 Q. "On the 14th of July, in the morning at about 400 hours a column

25 of vehicles went by on the asphalt road from the direction of Kravica

Page 9438

1 towards Konjevic Polje."

2 Just putting in that context, sir, if we can continue on and to

3 the very next page at the top, we're still talking about the 14th of July,

4 1995, and at 6.00 in the morning, while at this cooperative, if we could

5 move it over to the left a little. Mr. Markovic states the following:"

6 That same morning, at around --"

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Just make sure that you don't mention the witness's

8 name.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Of course not, Your Honour. Thank you.

10 Q. That same morning at around 6.00 a.m., 600 hours, the director,

11 another individual, and you, sir, apparently were at the cooperative with

12 17 other workers. Do you see that?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Okay. Can you tell us, sir, truthfully now, whether or not you

15 were at the Kravica cooperative or compound at 6.00 a.m. On the 14th of

16 July, 1995?

17 A. I was never with these two individuals at 6.00.

18 Q. Thank you.


20 That's all we'll need with that document, Your Honour.

21 Q. Now, is it your belief -- well, that's true. We always -- when --

22 were you there by yourself, if not with these individuals at 6.00, sir, on

23 the 14th of July, 1995?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Well, why do you think Mr. Luka Markovic would say something like

Page 9439

1 that unless it were true?

2 A. I don't know. I can't understand that.

3 Q. Sir, is it true that the phone call that you got, it was never

4 mentioned to you when you were going to go purportedly meet Mr. Beara,

5 that you were supposed to go meet Mr. Beara, they only told you that were

6 you going to meet some representatives of the army of Republika Srpska,

7 correct?

8 A. I haven't understood you very well.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... The first phone call that you

10 got, which informed you to go to the SDS offices, am I correct, sir --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- That during that phone call no one ever mentioned the name of

13 Mr. Beara, and that you were asked simply to go to the SDS offices to meet

14 with some representatives of the army of Republika Srpska?

15 A. I think Colonel Beara's name was mentioned.

16 Q. Okay. Let's look at the second version of your story, or that you

17 recall, which was given four years after your interview with Mr. Ruez, and

18 your meeting with Mr. Nikolic and Deronjic. This is April 21st, 2004.

19 Now, at that time, sir, you claimed that your first contact and

20 conversation with Mr. Beara was after the fall of the enclave, but before

21 the killings at Kravica warehouse. So I suppose that that would be, given

22 those time-lines, somewhere between July 11th, and 13th, 1995?

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have a line and -- page and line where

24 that is stated?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure he has.

Page 9440

1 MR. OSTOJIC: I do, but I quite frankly, Your Honour, think

2 objection is inappropriate. It is throughout the testimony in Blagojevic

3 where this witness repeatedly confirms and reiterates that the sequence,

4 or version of events under oath at that time was that he saw purportedly

5 Mr. Beara before Kravica. So I take some offence that my learned friend

6 is putting us to the task when he very well knows that when their team was

7 in fact cross-examining this very witness on those points. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We will redact line 17 on page 66, and the last

11 three words on line 16, of line 16.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We can leave it actually because it's a proofing

14 note.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll make the necessary redaction. Let's make

17 this clear, and I think it applies across the board to everyone.

18 Irrespective of whether the -- your counterpart stands up and says,

19 counsel, I would like to have the exact reference, sometimes you have

20 that, sometimes you don't. But the thing is this, that we also need to be

21 in a position to follow.

22 So -- and it would help us immensely even if you are not asked

23 from the other -- other party, to give the correct reference, that you

24 still give it. And this will apply to everyone and not just to you in the

25 purpose of this case. I mean, as you go along, we are trying to follow,

Page 9441

1 not only the content of the witness's answers, but also other

2 considerations that, as judges, we are bound to make as we go along.

3 So -- and I'm sure that you understand what I'm saying and you

4 will all comply. Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Sir, Mr. Witness, do you remember testifying in Blagojevic or

7 Blagojevic that you first went from Glogova, then to Konjevic Polje, and

8 then you saw the killings at Kravica? (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please redact, Madam Registrar. All right.

11 Because we are in open session. And if you give the reference to the page

12 number, et cetera, you have practically identified the witness.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Right. Well, okay. Fair enough.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want, we can go into private session. I

15 mean, it's no problem with us. If it makes your life easier. We hate

16 interrupting. It's not in our style, you know that.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: I understand that.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If you think we can safely go into private session

19 and go through this, we will do that.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: No, I only just gave the reference as a result of

21 the Court's -- Court thing.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: In this case it would identify the witness.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: Right.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can redact that and proceed.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.

Page 9442

1 Q. Sir, do you remember giving that testimony?

2 A. I do remember. A minute ago I apologised for this mistake. And I

3 mentioned the fact that I had corrected the mistake. When I gave a

4 statement to the Prosecutor.

5 Q. So although we're only on the second version of your story, sir,

6 the first version to Mr. Ruez, was a mistake, you were wrong, even though,

7 as the Court will see, on seven different occasions you are the one who

8 put these time-lines to Mr. Ruez specifically, that it was before the fall

9 of the enclave, and before the Kravica incident, and you were also

10 mistaken and wrong, sir, in the testimony that you gave in the Blagojevic

11 case? Am I correct to understand that?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. This is getting argumentative because

13 it's so broad and vague about where he's wrong, and listing it like this

14 it's not really leading us anywhere.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I have a feeling the witness can answer that

16 question.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see if he can answer the question. If then he

19 considers the -- your question vague in any part, we'll deal with that.

20 But he said -- he can certainly address the Blagojevic testimony without

21 any difficulty, I suppose.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A minute ago I said that I had

23 apologised because of that mistake. I explained to the Prosecution what

24 the situation was, and I told the Prosecutor the truth.


Page 9443

1 Q. Were you also wrong in that testimony, sir, when you said that you

2 were at -- again on the same page we referenced earlier, "I went from

3 Glogova to Konjevic Polje because a unit from the utilities company was

4 out there on the field. There were a couple of people there who were

5 collecting bodies with several people from the utilities company and the

6 company's truck. They were collecting bodies of the people who had been

7 killed. So I went to Konjevic Polje too, to see what was going on, more

8 out of curiosity. I saw in Kravica a site that I will never forget. I

9 saw the killing."

10 Do you remember giving that testimony in Blagojevic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, what were you doing in Glogova prior to the Kravica incident

13 of July 13th, 1995?

14 A. That's when I went and there was a team in the field gathering, or

15 rather collecting the bodies. That was the day on which we were digging

16 in the area. That's not when I passed by and saw that sight.

17 Q. Just so I'm clear, was that a day or two before the Kravica

18 incident?

19 A. That was the day after the events in Kravica when the team was in

20 Konjevic Polje and was collecting the dead.

21 Q. Did you, sir, at any time go to Glogova prior to the Kravica

22 incident of the 13th of July, 1995?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, further on in your testimony in Blagojevic you state, do you

25 not -- and we can maybe go into private so I can give my learned friends

Page 9444

1 the --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private east.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]


10 Q. You further on in that testimony, state that the event in Kravica

11 that you described and saw, occurred the day after the machine started

12 operating in Glogova. Do you remember that at all, sir?

13 A. Could you please repeat the question?

14 Q. Sure. In your testimony in Blagojevic you state, sir, that the

15 event in Kravica you saw and described, occurred the day after this

16 machine started operating in Glogova, correct?

17 A. In Kravica there was this event that I witnessed, the day before

18 the machine started operating in Glogova.

19 Q. I understand that's what your version is now, but in the

20 Blagojevic case did you not, sir, testify under oath that there were

21 machines already that were operating at Glogova prior to the Kravica

22 incident?

23 A. I can't remember that.

24 Q. Well, I just read it to you. And that will be fair enough, we can

25 move on to -- and again, just for the Court's reference, it was the most

Page 9445

1 recent one in private session that we talked about.

2 Can you tell me, sir, why there would have been machines operating

3 in Glogova prior to the Kravica incident?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic --

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Foundation. It reverses what he said happened.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I will consult with my colleagues.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We think that Mr. McCloskey is right. You can

10 rephrase your question, if you wish. But It doesn't tally with what he

11 testified a few moments ago.


13 Q. Mr. Witness, in your testimony, which was the second version of

14 how this contact purportedly with Mr. Beara occurred, you had said there,

15 and I apologise for summarising it, but to put it in proper context for

16 you, sir, you testified that the meeting took place after the fall of the

17 enclave, but before the incident at Kravica. Do you remember that at all?

18 A. I'll repeat this.

19 Q. I'm not asking you --

20 A. Please. I was then in Kravica and I saw that sight, and on that

21 day, or rather that evening, there was this meeting with Colonel Beara.

22 Q. Okay. How about on March 21st, 2007, when you met with my learned

23 friend, didn't you tell him at that time also that you saw the executions

24 at Kravica the day after you met with Mr. Beara for the first time? Do

25 you remember telling him that at as well? Sir? Do you remember telling

Page 9446

1 him that?

2 A. Do you mean now? I didn't understand your reference to this

3 learned friend.

4 Q. It's just a words of endearment that we have for each other here

5 in the courtroom.

6 Sir, I'm asking you this: On the 21st of March, 2007, less than

7 five days ago, isn't it correct that you told the Prosecutor that you saw

8 the executions at Kravica the day after you met Mr. Beara for the first

9 time? Did you tell the Prosecutor that or not?

10 A. I met Mr. Beara on the very same day, or rather in the evening,

11 when this murder in Kravica occurred, or rather what I saw.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, with all due respect, I would like an

13 answer to my specific question. And if -- perhaps if the Court puts it to

14 him the witness would be more willing to answer the question.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You put it to him again and tell him where he hasn't

16 answered your question.


18 Q. Sir, I know what your story or version of your story is now, but

19 I'm asking you, five days ago, sir, did you tell the Office of the

20 Prosecutor that you saw the executions at Kravica the day after you had

21 met with Mr. Beara for the first time?

22 A. Yes. And afterwards, immediately afterwards, I amended my

23 statement.

24 Q. Immediately afterwards meaning the next day, correct?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 9447

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: That doesn't reflect the proper sequence.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If it's necessary, I think the -- the --

3 well, I mean the question is whether it was the next day or not. And he

4 can answer whether it was indeed the next day or not and I think it will

5 clear up the -- your objection.

6 Yes, Witness, can you answer Mr. Ostojic's question, please? And

7 then we will have a break. You said --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was in the afternoon on

9 the very same day, but we did meet again on the following day. I think

10 the Prosecutor has the relevant material.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We can stop there, have a break. So we will

12 have a 25-minute break. Thank you.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. We'll need 10 minutes at the end

16 for something that we'd like to deal with.

17 Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Sir, I've asked that the notes of your meeting with the Office of

20 the Prosecutor on the 21st of March of this year be placed on e-court, so

21 if we can please have 2D86, just so we can clarify a couple of points with

22 you. And just at the -- and I think if we can be kind enough just so we

23 could keep it in proper context, just quickly flip to the second page so

24 that we can see from whom this letter is written by. Okay. And it's

25 dated the 21st of March, 2007, thank you. If we could go back to the

Page 9448

1 first paragraph of that exhibit 2D86.

2 Now, here, sir, during your meeting with Mr. McCloskey and the

3 Prosecution staff, you again said that you saw the executions the day

4 after you met Colonel Beara for the first time. My question to you, sir,

5 is the following in connection with that: And that is, what occurred on

6 the days prior that made you rethink and then state to the Prosecutor that

7 you saw the executions the day after you met with Mr. Beara for the first

8 time?

9 A. I believe that I have already answered that once.

10 Q. I don't believe, with all due respect, that you have, but if you

11 have, maybe you can just be kind enough to repeat then what had happened

12 that caused you to change the chronology, if you will, or the sequence of

13 events on the 21st of March, 2007 in connection with your purported

14 meeting with Mr. Beara.

15 A. The reason was that I realised that I had made a mistake in my

16 first statement, and that the meeting took place on the same evening when

17 the incident i.e., the killings in Kravica had happened, the ones that I

18 had seen.

19 Q. I know that's what you're saying now, sir, but try to focus, if

20 you will, with me. I know we've had a long day. But on the 21st of

21 March, my learned friend advises us that you told him that the executions

22 at Kravica occurred the day after you met with Mr. Beara for the first

23 time. And recently you testified again under oath that the purported

24 meeting with Mr. Beara for the first time occurred after the Kravica

25 incident and not before.

Page 9449

1 Without giving me the date, sir, can you reconcile for me why, as

2 recently as five or six days ago you, in fact, told the Prosecutor that

3 the executions at Kravica occurred the day after you met with Mr. Beara

4 for the first time?

5 A. Mistake. It was a mistake in my statement.

6 Q. Which statement?

7 A. In the statement that I -- that the meeting with Colonel Beara

8 took place one day prior to the events in Kravica. This was the mistake,

9 because the meeting took place on the same evening, on the evening of the

10 incident in Kravica.

11 Q. We'll move on from that, I think. Can you tell me, sir, being

12 under oath here, on the 21st of March, 2007, five days ago, did you ever

13 tell the Prosecutor that, in fact, in the mid-afternoon on the 14th of

14 July, you went to the Kravica warehouse?

15 A. You mean a day after the executions in Kravica. I did. I went

16 through Kravica and through Konjevic Polje on the following day.

17 Q. And I heard that testimony. I'm asking you, did you tell the

18 Prosecutor that you were actually at the Kravica warehouse, not through

19 Konjevic Polje and through the Kravica, but were you specifically at the

20 Kravica warehouse that next day? Isn't that what you told him?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: He keeps going over this, that's what he just said

23 was a mistake. That 21st statement about Kravica. And it's just -- we're

24 just churning it into more and more confusion. But he's clearly answered

25 that question already.

Page 9450

1 MR. OSTOJIC: I respectfully don't agree at all. This is the

2 first time we're using the 21st March 2007 proofing note that we received

3 and the only aspect that we touched on it was the first paragraph and

4 logically we're going to go through to the fifth paragraph where that's

5 said. He has given testimony specifically as to whether or not he claims

6 he was at Kravica and I just want it know how -- I'm going to follow up

7 with questions in that regard.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. --

9 MR. OSTOJIC: I think it's very fair.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's explained that the 21st statement was a

11 mistake.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: I would--

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's got that--

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Now I'm going through --

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't want him to go --

16 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm going through --

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- through something that he says is a mistake --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop --

19 MR. OSTOJIC: If I can --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: -- stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. One moment. I

21 don't -- I can address the -- myself to the witness straight away.

22 Witness, could you kindly remove your ear-phones for a short while,

23 please, while we discuss this. Your headphones. Sorry.

24 Now, let's go through this and please try not to overlap. You are

25 both talking at the same time.

Page 9451

1 Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: Mr. President, the only reason I tried to interrupt

3 my learned friend is to ask that very thing, that the earphones of the

4 witness be removed.


6 MR. OSTOJIC: Because I think in the objection there was this -- I

7 would also ask that my learned friend share with us the specific page

8 number and line number where he says that it was clearly answered that

9 question already. He says that on page 76, lines 17 and 18. I don't

10 believe it's correct. I don't believe we've ever touched on this document

11 here today at all. I think that I should be given an opportunity to flesh

12 this out and also ask follow-up questions, specifically why it was that he

13 said that. If he claims that it's a mistake, I want to know how he made

14 that mistake five days ago and changed from what his prior statements,

15 testimony, interviews, conferences with multiple people were.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: He must have asked that same question many times

18 already. We're going just around and around and around, and I just don't

19 see it's getting us anywhere.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: If we could just have the page cite, Your Honour,

21 we'll look at it as quickly at possible and the line, we would appreciate

22 it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's page 76 and -- yes. That's where Mr. McCloskey

24 stated he is clearly -- that the witness has clearly answered the question

25 already and -- immediately after you disagreed. Let me confer with my

Page 9452

1 colleagues, please.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So, we intend to try and bring this to an end,

4 because in a way we have been going through this for too much of a long

5 time and there has been repetitive questions and repetitive answers. So

6 let's do it this way: You -- you will refer the witness to the 21st March

7 statement, or proofing note.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: Proofing notes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Proofing notes, okay. And specifically put to the

10 witness whether it's correct that on that particular day he stated the

11 following, and you need to tell him what, according to the document, the

12 proofing notes, he is supposed to have stated to the OTP.

13 Then your next question ought to be whether that is a correct

14 information that he gave to the OTP or whether it's not correct. And

15 depending on what the answer is, if he answers you that it was not a

16 correct information that he gave to the OTP on that occasion, you have

17 every right to ask him why. But that's about it. Otherwise, he has

18 already testified on what happened and when he passed -- when he went to

19 Kravica, when he -- so stick to the 21st March proofing notes, and follow

20 the following -- the trail that I indicated to you.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you for your assistance, Your Honour. May I,

22 Your Honour?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, by all means.


25 Q. Mr. Witness, directing your attention specifically to the 21st of

Page 9453

1 March, 2007, five days ago, is it correct, sir, that you told the

2 Prosecutor, on the 21st of March, 2007, the following, and I'll quote,

3 although this is a summary by the Prosecutor, but following the Court's

4 instructions.

5 "In the mid-afternoon that same day the witness," that would be

6 you, sir, "went to the Kravica warehouse and witnessed the execution he

7 described in his earlier testimony."

8 It appears, I think if we scroll down just a little further, the

9 Court can see it. Right there is fine. It's in that paragraph in the

10 middle of the paragraph where it starts with, "In the mid-afternoon."

11 A. I've just told you. I went from Glogovic [as interpreted] via

12 Kravica to Konjevic Polje, and in Kravica I saw the killings within the

13 compound of the agricultural facility, in front of the building.

14 Q. Sir, all I'm asking you is five days ago did you tell the

15 Prosecutor that, in fact, you were -- went to the Kravica warehouse?

16 A. I don't remember having said that I entered the warehouse. I said

17 that I passed by the warehouse, that I saw the killings on the day when

18 they took place in Kravica.

19 Q. Well, where do you think the Prosecutor would have come up with

20 this fact that you told him you went to the Kravica warehouse? Would you

21 know?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's assuming facts that are not in

23 the -- not in the proofing note, and not in the answer to his question.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the objection has to be sustained.

25 Next question, Mr. Ostojic.

Page 9454

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Sir, last Friday when you were about to finish testifying you said

3 that there were, on page 20, lines 1 through 5, that there were a group of

4 workers from the utility company collecting corpses next to the road. Do

5 you remember testifying about that?

6 A. When -- when was that? And what are you saying? When did I

7 testify about that? On Friday or the prior evidence that I provided?

8 Q. Friday, March 23rd, 2007.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Last Friday.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: I think my question before that specifically

11 said "last Friday," Your Honour, so that's why I thought he might need the

12 date. Fair enough.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The workers from the utility company

14 were collected, corpses by the road from Kravica to Konjevic Polje. On

15 the day when we were digging graves or a grave in Glogova.


17 Q. Was that the utility company that is called R-a-d, RAD, correct?

18 That's where these group of workers are from?

19 A. These workers were not the employees of RAD. Some of them were

20 doing their work obligation there, so some of the people were mobilised as

21 members of the civilian protection to work for the RAD company.

22 Q. If you could be kind enough to just identify some of the workers

23 from the utility company who were collecting the corpses next to the road,

24 as you so testified last week?

25 A. One of the drivers was Milivoje Cvetinovic. Vidak Zivanovic was

Page 9455

1 one of the men who loaded corpses on to the vehicles. There were some

2 other elderly people whom I knew by sight. I didn't know their names.

3 The military department had just mobilised them and sent them over there.

4 In other words, not all of them were the employees of the company where I

5 had worked for a number of years, and whom I knew from -- from that time.

6 Q. Now, also Friday during your direct examination you told us that

7 you were curious and wanted to go towards Konjevic Polje and you took the

8 road there to see what was happening because you had heard certain things

9 were happening there. Do you remember that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Well, at that time did you see any bodies or corpses?

12 A. I was curious. I didn't have to go there, but I was curious, as

13 men had been sent out to collect corpses along the road to Konjevic Polje,

14 and I had some food in the car and that food, I took to those workers who

15 were engaged in that work and that's when I saw all that.

16 Q. And this all --

17 A. I don't even know who in Glogova told me that I -- that somebody

18 should go there and collect the bodies, because the bodies kept on coming

19 from Kravica and that's when I went there, I saw the bodies that we went

20 on to collect the following day.

21 Q. Well, sir, and that's what I want to ask you. You were -- you say

22 here you were curious, you didn't have to go there, "but I was curious as

23 men had been sent out to collect corpses along the road to Konjevic

24 Polje." Then you describe you had some food, et cetera.

25 This, sir, happened -- even according to your most recent version

Page 9456

1 on Friday, this happened before the Kravica incident of July 13th, 1995,

2 did it not?

3 A. No, no. This happened on the following day, following the

4 incident in Kravica. It was then when the men collected bodies along the

5 road in the field along the road to Konjevic Polje. This is what I have

6 just explained to you.

7 Q. So your curious -- curiosity trip, when did that happen? Before

8 or after your meeting with Mr. Beara, when you took this trip on the road?

9 A. When I saw the killings I went to Kravica and Konjevic Polje and

10 on the following day, when the corpses were being collected, and when the

11 men were sent out to collect the bodies, I took the same road. I went to

12 the same places, to Kravica and Konjevic Polje.

13 Q. I don't know about your second trip, but we were focusing on your

14 testimony from Friday when you gave evidence during your direct

15 examination, and I asked you during your trip, which was only one at that

16 time, to Konjevic Polje in July of 1995, and that was when you made the

17 trip, and then came back from Konjevic Polje, back to Kravica which you

18 told us you were in your car, we heard that testimony. Thank you for

19 that. I said, "At that time did you see any bodies or corpses, meaning on

20 the -- next to the road or in Konjevic Polje." And your answer on page

21 81, line 23 through 25, and continuing on page 82, line 1, was as

22 follows: "I was curious. I didn't have to go there. But I was curious,

23 as men had been sent out to collect corpses along the road to Konjevic

24 Polje, and I had some food in the car and that food, I took to those

25 workers who were engaged in that work and that's when I saw all that."

Page 9457

1 Right now, even though you want to talk about Kravica, we're

2 talking specifically about the bodies that you saw on the road from

3 Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, when you took this trip alone out of

4 curiosity. Am I correct, sir, in reading this that, in fact, prior to the

5 Kravica incident, according to your testimony, men had been sent out to

6 collect corpses along the road, and you, in fact, brought them food?

7 A. That was on the following day, a day after the incident in Kravica

8 had taken place.

9 Q. Let me go back then. Did you, sir, prior to viewing the incident

10 at Kravica, did you see any corpses on the road, the Bratunac-Konjevic

11 Polje road?

12 A. On the day when I saw the incident in Kravica, I think so.

13 Q. Was anyone collecting those corpses along the road at that time?

14 A. Not at the time.

15 Q. How about the corpses in Konjevic Polje, did you see any at or

16 around the time of the Kravica incident?

17 A. No. On the following day I did.

18 Q. And how about the corpses in Bratunac, sir? Did you see any on or

19 before the Kravica incident that you described?

20 A. I believe that this was on the same day, in the evening hours.

21 And the five or six bodies that I saw were collected, according to the

22 driver, there had been even more corpses and that on Thursday -- what am I

23 saying? That on the 14th -- let's say this happened on the 13th, in

24 Kravica, and on the following day all these bodies were taken to Glogova

25 from the schoolyard of the Vuk Karadzic School.

Page 9458

1 Q. Sir, you said on page 6, lines 15 yesterday -- or Friday, that you

2 heard that some things were happening, "so I went to see, just simply to

3 see what was going on."

4 In connection with that, my question to you is, from whom did you

5 hear that some things were happening. And this -- to put it in proper

6 context for you, I think this was the first trip that you made out of

7 curiosity on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.

8 A. You have Kravica and Konjevic Polje in mind, when you asked about

9 the first time I had heard about something having happened.

10 Q. Okay. It was probably --

11 A. Well, we were just discussing the schoolyard. And now you're

12 asking me about this, that's why I'm asking you whether you have Konjevic

13 Polje and Kravica in mind or the school.

14 Q. I have in mind, sir, the first trip you took on the Konjevic

15 Polje-Bratunac road when you became curious, in your testimony last Friday

16 on page 6, you state that that day you heard that some things were

17 happening. All I'm asking you, sir, is from whom did you hear that some

18 things were happened which piqued your curiosity to take a drive all by

19 yourself on the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road towards Kravica?

20 A. Well, rumours, how am I supposed to know who I heard these rumours

21 from?

22 Q. Okay. Sir, again, I'm going to ask you just to clarify, and thank

23 you for your assistance, your testimony on page 9, line 21 of last

24 Friday. This purported -- sorry, let me just... Okay.

25 Let's talk about the conversation that you had with Mr. Beara

Page 9459

1 supposedly that evening. Am I correct that that was after, it was after

2 you had already met with Mr. Davidovic and Deronjic for drinks and/or

3 dinner, correct?

4 A. Yes, the meeting was after that.

5 Q. And approximately what time? Sometime after 9.00, you said? 9.00

6 p.m., correct?

7 A. After 9.00, 9.00, half past 9.00.

8 Q. Now, when you entered the SDS offices from your office, can you

9 tell us specifically where were the two military policemen stationed?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. We have been through

11 this. And to go through it back and -- going back forth is -- is

12 confusing and it's unnecessary. We've been through this. He stated who

13 he saw, when he saw them, what was said.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean by stationed, two military

15 policemen stationed? He's already testified about seeing two military

16 policemen who he doesn't know and doesn't even know -- actually, he

17 excluded that they were from the Bratunac Brigade.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Were they in front of the building, were they inside

19 the building. I don't think it's been covered, but if the rule is going

20 to be if we ask the question, they can't --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: What he said is that when he arrived at the building

22 first, there -- obviously, he was stopped by -- I don't remember whether

23 they were military police or not, and then when he went into -- in the

24 room, there were two military police, military police present there.

25 Anyway, go ahead.

Page 9460

1 MR. OSTOJIC: With all due respect, that wasn't quite --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


4 Q. Sir, where were the two military policemen stationed when you

5 first came to the SDS offices?

6 A. They were in the office of the SDS secretary.

7 Q. And you claim Mr. Beara was actually in Mr. Deronjic's office

8 immediately behind that with two other army officers, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the four of you, meaning according to your testimony,

11 Mr. Beara, yourself, and these two unknown army officers, were in

12 Mr. Deronjic's office, having this first conversation, correct?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This I will not allow, because before you put the

14 question already how many people were there in Deronjic's office, and his

15 answer was categoric, was according to him, Beara, these two officers and

16 himself and no one else. He's already answered that question.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I'm accepting it. We were just putting

18 it in context. Fair enough, Your Honour.

19 Q. Sir, how long did that meeting last with the four of you?

20 A. If I had known about this, perhaps I would have measured the time.

21 Half an hour, 40 minutes, how am I to know?

22 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I don't know in you would like us to

23 break now, given the Court's request earlier today.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You have a final question on this that you can

25 put --

Page 9461

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Not one, but I have quite a few.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I imagine so. So let's stop the witness's testimony

3 here. He can be escorted out of the courtroom.

4 Before you leave, sir, I repeat to you that there will be

5 consequences if, between today and tomorrow, you speak or you allow anyone

6 to speak to you on the matters of your testimony. It's an undertaking

7 that you have already made, and which you must stick to. Otherwise, there

8 will be consequences.

9 Yes, usher, you can escort him, please.

10 Where is Ms. Condon?

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: She is working in -- at the office at the moment.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, Ms. Condon is not here, Mr. Sarapa

13 returned during the course of the first session, just for the record.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You will recall that during the sitting of Tuesday,

16 20th of March, Ms. Condon, co-counsel in the Defence team for the accused

17 Popovic, made submissions to us, to the Trial Chamber, relating to a news

18 item that appeared on the Tribunal's intranet a few days earlier, namely

19 on the 14th of March, 2007, and which was headed, "ICTY spokesman

20 denounces shameful denial of the Srebrenica genocide." On the occasion

21 other Defence teams voiced their association with Ms. Condon's

22 submissions.

23 As reference was made to the text of the 14th March, 2007, news

24 item by Ms. Condon herself, we will not repeat it. This news item was

25 posted on the ICTY intranet by Mr. Christian-Chartier, and the Trial

Page 9462

1 Chamber has verified that this ICTY intranet news item faithfully

2 reproduces the substance of what Mr. Hodzic is reported as having stated

3 in the course of the ICTY weekly press briefing of the 14th March 2007.

4 The Trial Chamber has also confirmed that Mr. Rafik Hodzic is indeed the

5 spokesman for the Tribunal, excluding the Office of the Prosecutor and

6 acts as the spokesperson for the President and in that capacity for

7 Chambers as well.

8 The substance of Ms. Condon's submission is the following:

9 Firstly, that comment in question, that particular comment in question, is

10 coming from the spokesperson of the very institution where Accused Popovic

11 faces trial. Hence, according to Ms. Condon, it directly impinges on the

12 perception as to whether accused Popovic receives a fair trial. In this

13 context Ms. Condon affirms that her client feels aggrieved.

14 Secondly, that it has clearly emerged in this trial that the

15 accused Popovic's line of Defence would constitute, in the context of Mr.

16 Hodzic's statement, a denial that genocide took place in Srebrenica,

17 something that Mr. Hodzic strongly attacks.

18 Thirdly, that the circumstances of Mr. Hodzic's statement are such

19 as to warrant this Trial Chamber's considering whether to proceed against

20 him pursuant to Rule 77, which provides for or regulates contempt

21 proceedings against persons held to have knowingly and wilfully interfered

22 with the administration of justice.

23 Ms. Condon also informed the Trial Chamber when she raised this

24 issue, that the Accused who are charged with genocide in this case have

25 written a joint letter to the President of this Tribunal.

Page 9463

1 We have carefully considered the submissions advanced by Ms.

2 Condon. We feel that in the circumstances, Ms. Condon and those other

3 Defence teams that associated themselves with her in her submissions did

4 the right thing in raising the matter, bringing it to the attention of the

5 Trial Chamber. The Trial Chamber is of the view that the statements made

6 by Mr. Hodzic were inappropriate, particularly given his role at the

7 Tribunal.

8 The Trial Chamber has no doubt that when Mr. Hodzic makes

9 statements in his capacity as spokesperson of Chambers he has the

10 responsibility to exercise the utmost caution and vigilance in the way he

11 chooses to express himself, especially since his capacity could be

12 interpreted as meaning that he is expressing the views of Chambers and

13 after consultation with same.

14 In this case this Trial Chamber was not consulted by Mr. Hodzic

15 before making his statement, and had we been consulted we would have

16 expressed our concern that nothing is said that could be interpreted

17 adversely in regard to any of the accused in this trial who enjoy the

18 presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

19 Mr. Hodzic's further explanation, albeit belated softens the

20 predicament but in turn highlights the importance of care and vigilance at

21 all times in his statements. Further we intend to convey our concerns in

22 this respect directly to the President of the Tribunal.

23 Without, and to consider the question of the alleged improper

24 inference interference with the administration of justice, particularly in

25 so for as Mr. Hodzic's statement could impinge on the perception of

Page 9464

1 whether the accused Popovic received a fair trial.

2 On in issue the Trial Chamber notes that Mr. Hodzic's statement

3 does not fit in any of the instances giving rise to contempt proceedings

4 listed in subparagraphs (I) to (V) of paragraph A in Rule 77. This list

5 act of contempt, however, is clearly not exhuastive, considering that the

6 same paragraph empowers the Tribunal to hold in contempt those who

7 knowingly and wilfully interfere with its administration of justice,

8 including any person who commits one or more of the acts mentioned in

9 paragraphs (I) to (v) it is obvious therefore that other acts not mongst

10 the ones listed but which in essence amount to an intentional and wilful

11 interference with the Tribunal's administration of justice can be the

12 subject matter of contempt proceedings.

13 It therefore remains to be seen if, by his statement in his

14 capacity as spokesperson of the this Tribunal Mr. Hodzic can be considered

15 to have knowingly and wilfully interfered with administration of justice

16 in the present trial. The Trial Chamber cannot come to the conclusion

17 that Mr. Hodzic's his statement was a deliberate, intentional and wilful

18 attempt to interfere with the proper administration of justice in the

19 present trial. His statement evidently focused on the judgements of the

20 trial and Appeals Chambers in the Krstic case and the fact that the same

21 facts established in this case were endorsed by the International Court of

22 Justice in its recent judgement.

23 It is no surprise to the Trial Chamber that his statement became a

24 source of concern for the accused charged with genocide in this case,

25 especially since they are contesting the charge of genocide, and they too

Page 9465

1 are certainly aware of the judgements in Krstic and that of the

2 international court of justice. But this reason cannot form the basis for

3 considering if the statement by Mr. Hodzic was deliberately intended to

4 undermine these proceedings. The test has to focus on whether it in

5 itself the statement can be construed as a violation of Rule 77. In this

6 context the Trial Chamber does not perceive the statement to have been

7 intended to give the impression that the accused in this trial should

8 think twice before denying that genocide ever took place in Srebrenica or

9 that they stand no chance of being acquitted of the charge of genocide.`

10 In this same context it is significant to note that Mr. Hodzic in another

11 press briefing held on Wednesday, 21st of March, 2007, in reply to a

12 specific question put to him with reference to his previous statement,

13 explained that what he had stated earlier, "Was not in any way a statement

14 on the alleged individual responsibility of any accused whose cases are

15 currently pending before this Tribunal."

16 This and the Trial Chamber's mind is indicative of what I have

17 already pointed out, namely that there is no evidence that Mr. Hodzic's

18 statement was deliberately intended to undermine the administration of

19 justice in this case.

20 In closing, we wish to make it clear that the accused in this case

21 enjoy a presumption of innocence until their guilt or otherwise is finally

22 determined. And their case will be decided on the basis of the evidence

23 which is adduced in this case and not on any previous decision of this

24 Tribunal or any other court on the events that took place in Srebrenica.

25 We stand adjourned until tomorrow. Tomorrow the sitting is in the

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1 afternoon. Thank you.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of March,

4 2007, at 2.15 p.m.