1 Thursday, 19 April 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody.
6 Madam Registrar, could you kindly call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.
10 All the accused are here. Defence teams are all here in full
11 force. Prosecution: It's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.
12 Any preliminaries? We hear none. So I think we can bring the
13 witness in. We'll have the break at -- not at 11.00, as I anticipated
14 yesterday, but at quarter to 11.00 because I have a few things to do
15 before I leave.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, you -- I imagine everyone got the
17 e-mail about -- that we've run out of witnesses for tomorrow. I sent
18 that off to the Court last night. Apparently, you did not. So I --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a surprise to me. I have checked my e-mails
20 this morning, but I haven't seen it. Sometimes I'm the last one to
21 receive the e-mails. All right. Okay.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: No protective measures?
24 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President. Good morning.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
1 Good morning to you, sir. And on behalf of the Trial Chamber, my
2 colleagues, I'd like to welcome you. You're about to start giving
3 evidence. Before you do so, you're required by our rules to make a
4 solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth. You are being
5 handed now the next. Please read it out aloud, and that will be your
6 solemn undertaking with us that you will be testifying the truth.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: RADIVOJE LAKIC
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, sir. Could you kindly
12 take a seat and make yourself comfortable.
13 You will now be asked some questions by Mr. Thayer. He will then
14 be followed by members of the Defence teams on cross-examination. Before
15 we proceed any further, for the time being, for the first session of this
16 sitting, you would have noticed that Judge Stole is not with us. He had
17 an urgent appointment to attend to, but he will be back soon, so he
18 should be present for the rest of the sitting after the first session or
19 even during the first session.
20 As I told you yesterday, I will be absent after the first
21 session, so throughout the entire session, we will be sitting pursuant to
22 Rule 15 bis(A). Okay, thank you.
23 No caution in this case?
24 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I did advise the witness yesterday
25 that given his role as a platoon commander, under the circumstances,
1 the -- a caution, in my opinion, would be appropriate from the Court.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I just asked you because I don't know what he is
3 going to testify, and I think we better be on the safe side.
4 Mr. Lakic, look at me. I'm going to explain something very
5 important to you, and I want to make sure that you understand me
6 completely. If you don't, I will explain further.
7 Now, there is such a thing as the right against
8 self-incrimination. A witness testifying in courts of justice, courts of
9 law, in many countries in the world, enjoy this kind of a qualified
10 privilege not to be forced to incriminate themselves. We have the same
11 rule here. While you are testifying, because of the events in which --
12 which are alleged to have happened and in which it seems to an extent you
13 were witness to, you might be asked questions which, if answered by you,
14 would tend to incriminate you; in other words, to expose you to possible
15 criminal procedures. I don't know if this will be the case or not, but
16 just in case this could be the case, I am giving you -- explaining to you
17 what your rights are.
18 If in the case of such questions, you may ask the Trial Chamber
19 to exempt you from answering those questions; that is, questions which
20 might tend to incriminate you. It is not an absolute right. It is a
21 qualified one. It is a limited one. We may decide to grant you an
22 exemption, in other words not to answer such questions and that such
23 questions could be coming from -- both from the Prosecution and from the
24 Defence side. So you can ask to be exempted. We can decide to exempt
25 you, or we can decide not to exempt you and to compel you, to order you,
1 to answer such questions.
2 If we do, however, you enjoy a special right; namely, that
3 whatever you would state in reply to those questions will not be used as
4 evidence in any subsequent prosecution that might be taken against you.
5 Except if we catch you perjuring yourself, not saying the truth, in which
6 case if you are prosecuted for perjury, in that case, that evidence could
7 be used against you.
8 Is it clear enough? Have I explained it clear enough to you?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, so Mr. Thayer, please.
11 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
13 Q. Good morning, sir.
14 A. Good morning.
15 MR. THAYER: I would ask you simply to try to keep your voice up
16 and, if you could, stay as close to the microphone as you can so that we
17 catch every word that you say.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: One other thing, Mr. Thayer, before you continue.
19 Any time, sir, Mr. Lakic -- Mr. Lakic, any time you need a short break,
20 you need to leave the courtroom, you only have to ask, and we will grant
21 you permission to do so. All right?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
24 MR. THAYER:
25 Q. Sir, would you state your name and spell it for the record,
2 A. Radivoje Lakic, son of Bogosav.
3 Q. And how old are you, sir?
4 A. 66.
5 Q. Where were you born and raised, sir?
6 A. The village of Donji Lokanj, Zvornik municipality.
7 Q. And you identify yourself as a Bosnian Serb; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber how far you went in school and
10 what your training was?
11 A. I completed secondary school for agriculture in Bijeljina, and
12 these are my qualifications.
13 Q. And, sir, when the war broke out, how were you employed at that
15 A. When the war broke out, I worked as a manager in Agroprom Zvornik
16 in the unit which was located in Pilica.
17 Q. And what was that unit, sir?
18 A. I said that I worked in a work unit, not a military-type unit.
19 That was what I was referring to. Can I continue?
20 Q. Sure. Let me just ask you one follow-up question. When you were
21 this -- working as a manager for Agroprom, first of all what area were
22 you working in? What was your field as a manager with Agroprom?
23 A. I was a manager in a work unit in Pilica, and the whole company
24 was called Agroprom Zvornik. I dealt with improving the agriculture in
25 the region.
1 Q. Okay. And can you just briefly describe for the Trial Chamber
2 what Agroprom is?
3 A. Agroprom Zvornik was a company which dealt with agriculture in
4 Zvornik municipality. It also had commercial activities, and it had a
5 fleet of vehicles that served its needs, delivering and transporting
6 agricultural products.
7 Q. And prior to working as -- as a manager for Agroprom, how were
8 you employed, sir?
9 A. I was a director of a co-op in Pilica, which was part of Agroprom
11 Q. And just briefly, as -- as a director, what were your general
13 A. The entire organisation within a part of the company which dealt
14 with agricultural issues in that area, Pilica, Lokanj and so on. I
15 oversaw a warehouse, and members of the agricultural co-op would bring
16 their products there. We would buy them, and we dealt with those
17 products, including agricultural seeds and so on.
18 Q. And how long did you serve in that capacity, sir?
19 A. I worked for 11 years as a director of that basic work unit.
20 Q. Okay. What I'd like to do now, sir, is just review with you
21 briefly your military service history. So I'd just like to recite a
22 quick summary of that military history, and please correct me if anything
23 I've got down here is incorrect.
24 In early 1992, you served in the Bijeljina Battalion guarding the
25 Sepak bridge for approximately a month; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, correct.
2 Q. And then from 1992 to 1993, following the formation of the
3 Zvornik Brigade, you served in the brigades, Pilica Battalion, its Lokanj
4 battalion, and then its Pilica-Lokanj Battalion when the two were merged;
5 Is that correct, sir?
6 A. Correct, correct.
7 Q. And during this period of time, you served as assistant to the
8 logistics commander, and you also commanded a technical platoon
9 responsible for tractors and other agricultural equipment. And this was
10 from approximately 1993 through 1994?
11 A. Up until 1993. Actually, I don't remember the exact date, but
12 until 1993 I was assistant commander for logistics. Later on, I was
13 commander of a technical platoon.
14 Q. Okay. Do you perhaps remember the -- the year that you served in
15 that platoon? And if you don't, that's fine.
16 A. I think that it was late 1963, and early 1964. I don't remember
17 the date, but that's all I can tell you.
18 Q. Okay. It's being translated as 1963 and 1964. I presume that's
19 1993 and early 1994, sir.
20 A. I apologise.
21 Q. Now, in 1994, who was your immediate supervisor, sir? Your
22 superior officer?
23 A. I think it was Milan Stanojevic.
24 Q. And what was his position, sir?
25 A. He was the battalion commander.
1 Q. And which battalion was that, sir?
2 A. The 1st Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade.
3 Q. And was that battalion known by any other name?
4 A. The battalion was manned by people from Pilica and Lokanj mostly.
5 It was Lokanj-Pilica Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade.
6 Q. Now, at some point in 1994, were you assigned to command another
7 unit within the Zvornik Brigade?
8 A. No, no.
9 Q. Okay. I want to ask you a couple questions about what's been
10 referred to as the Branjevo Military Farm. Do you know what I'm
11 referring to, sir, when I -- when I refer to the Branjevo Military Farm?
12 A. The military farm at Branjevo was established in late 1994
13 pursuant to an agreement between the battalion commander, the director of
14 the work unit --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the name.
16 A. -- and myself. We took six hectares of land in order to work the
17 land and produce whatever was necessary for the Lokanj-Pilica Battalion.
18 Q. Okay. Let me just interrupt you right there, if I could. At
19 some point, sir, were you assigned to some command duty with respect to
20 the Branjevo Military Farm?
21 A. My work was just to organise the growing of vegetables. I did
22 not have any other duties.
23 Q. I understand that, sir. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what your
24 position, your actual position, was with respect to the Branjevo Military
1 A. I had ten people under me, and together with them, we organised
2 the planting of potatoes, peas, tobacco, tomatoes, cabbage, onion, and so
3 on. Mostly regular garden vegetables.
4 Q. And these ten people under you, sir, were they soldiers?
5 A. They wore civilian uniforms mostly. It was mostly the elderly,
6 and you can judge how old they were by the fact that three of them have
7 died in the meantime. They were not issued with any weapons. However,
8 their names were recorded.
9 Q. And when you say recorded, what are you referring to, sir?
10 A. Recorded in the military records, which is to say that they had a
11 duty to report to work, just like soldiers had a duty.
12 Q. And this group of approximately ten men under you, did that
13 formation -- was that formation referred to by any particular name? Was
14 that a platoon? Was it a company? A squad? How was that referred to,
16 A. Work platoon. It was known as the work platoon at the Branjevo
18 Q. And you were the commander of that work platoon; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And at that time, what rank did you hold, sir?
21 A. I was Captain First Class.
22 Q. Now, going back just a bit, sir, can you please describe for the
23 Trial Chamber the circumstances under which you were assigned to be the
24 commander of this work platoon? How did that come about? Just briefly,
25 if you could describe that for the Trial Chamber.
1 A. Pursuant to the agreement between my battalion commander and
2 Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, it was decided that the battalion would
3 establish the farm, and since I am an agricultural technician by
4 education, I was sent there to organise agricultural work there, to apply
5 all necessary agricultural methods.
6 Q. And when you refer to your battalion commander, again, at this
7 time, who was that person, sir?
8 A. Milan Stanojevic was the battalion commander.
9 Q. And do you recall attending a meeting between yourself and your
10 battalion commander and Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic in connection with
11 your assignment to be commander of this platoon?
12 A. No. Battalion commander and brigade commander agreed between
13 themselves to appoint me to that post. Later on, I attended a meeting
14 where it was decided that we would requisition six hectares -- six
15 hectares of land from Agroprom for our purposes.
16 Q. You referred a few moments ago to raising various produce and
17 vegetables on this farm. Did you ever raise any -- any animals in
18 connection with your unit?
19 A. We had a small number of pigs which were donated by certain
20 companies. We did not purchase them.
21 Q. And can you generally describe, please, for the Trial Chamber,
22 where this land that you stated was requisitioned from Agroprom was
23 located? And we'll look at some -- some maps and a photo later, but if
24 you could just generally describe where this land was located, this six
25 hectares that you described.
1 A. The land was located some 400 metres from the farm, on the road
2 towards Zvornik.
3 Q. Okay. And when you refer to the land being located 400 metres
4 from the farm, when you say, "the farm," what are you referring to, sir?
5 A. The farm belonged to Agroprom. Agroprom had 25 sows and some
6 pigs there, and it was their farm for growing pigs. That's all there was
7 on that farm. There were two stables which were inherited from the
8 previous farming estate, Semberija, which is where the animals were
10 Q. Okay. And just -- just so we're clear, you're referring to two
11 separate pieces of land, one which was Agroprom land on which there were
12 some stables where they raised pigs, and the other piece of land you're
13 referring to are the six hectares that you cultivated as part of the
14 Branjevo Military Farm; is that correct?
15 A. The civilian farm of Agroprom Zvornik provided six hectares of
16 land for our uses. They were still title holders to that land, but it
17 was given to us for our use.
18 Q. And can you describe geographically the relationship between
19 these two pieces of property? How far apart were they and where were
20 they located in relation to each other?
21 A. The military farm was almost in the centre of the Branjevo Farm
22 except for a piece of land which was naturally separated by creeks.
23 Otherwise, it was located in the very centre of the Branjevo Farm.
24 Q. And can you estimate what the distance was from the piece of land
25 that had the stables on it and the land that your platoon cultivated,
2 A. The distance is roughly 400 metres. Um, I can't give you a more
3 precise figure, but if you look on the map, you should be able to measure
4 the distance. Land surveyors generally estimate that to be 400 metres.
5 Q. And did you live nearby, sir?
6 A. My house is right above the military farm, if I may call it that,
7 across from it. I made arrangements with the battalion commander and
8 with Dragan to give me land there so that I could monitor it day and
9 night, so that nobody would cause any damage there. And the soil was
10 good. It was a fertile soil, and it was very good for growing these
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Could he tell us who this Dragan was, please? I
13 mean just to avoid your future --
14 MR. THAYER: You're being telepathic, Mr. President.
15 Q. Do you understand His Honour's question, sir? You referred to a
16 Dragan. Who is that Dragan, sir?
17 A. Dragan is an agricultural engineer. He was the manager of the
18 work unit in Pilica. He holds that post nowadays as well. He was born
19 in Pilica, and he runs a private company there now.
20 Q. And what is his last name, if you know it, please?
21 A. Dragan Milovanovic.
22 Q. In addition to your home being located close to the military
23 farm, did you also have any space that you used as an office?
24 A. In front of my house, there is an apartment for a doctor and an
25 infirmary. We took the premises of the apartment that is next to the
1 infirmary and we created our premises there, headquarters, so that people
2 could come there. If it rained, they could come in and take shelter, eat
3 there. They simply knew that they could spend time there whenever they
4 needed to.
5 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to ask you some questions about a different
6 topic, and it will probably take a little bit of time to go through this
7 topic so I'm just going to ask you now, do you feel like you need a break
8 now or shall we continue?
9 A. There is no need for a break, thank you.
10 Q. Okay. Sir, I want to turn your attention to July of 1995. Do
11 you recall learning sometime in July of 1995 that the Srebrenica enclave
12 had fallen?
13 A. Well, when the prisoners were brought, I heard about that, but
14 given that my work post focused exclusively on the farm, that's all.
15 Q. Okay. You just referred to prisoners being brought. What are
16 you referring to? Can you provide a little bit more detail for the
17 Trial Chamber, please?
18 A. I learned from the people who worked that a certain number of
19 people had been brought to the school in Pilica and to the co-op in
20 Pilica. That's all I learned, but I didn't go to see how it was
21 organised or find out anything else.
22 Q. And these people who gave you this information, or told you this
23 information, sir, did they tell you anything about where these prisoners
24 came from or what their ethnicity was?
25 A. No. They didn't tell me. The only thing that was known is that
1 they were Muslims, but I didn't go into details. These people are just
2 farmers, they're not educated.
3 Q. Now, sometime after receiving this information about Muslims
4 being held in Pilica, do you recall hearing any sounds coming from the
5 area of the Agroprom property down the road from your house?
6 A. Towards Bijeljina, I think it was a Sunday, it wasn't a working
7 day, all of a sudden we heard shots. I was at home behind the farm,
8 behind the stables.
9 Q. Can you describe with any more detail the shots that you heard?
10 How long they lasted, the duration of the -- of the shooting?
11 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to say whether it was half an hour, an
12 hour, two, three hours, I wouldn't be able to say because to tell you the
13 truth, I went inside the house so as not to be hit by a stray bullet.
14 Q. And based on what you were hearing, sir, did you form any
15 conclusions in your mind about the nature of what was going on from the
16 direction that you were hearing this shooting?
17 A. I made conclusion that those people were being killed, but I made
18 that conclusion without seeing anything. I didn't go to see anything,
19 but I concluded that there was a liquidation going on.
20 Q. Do you recall anything unusual that day with respect to the
22 A. The roads from the direction of Pilica were secured in a way. I
23 heard that informally, that those transporting those people needed
24 unhindered passage.
25 Q. And did you hear informally or otherwise from anyone later what
1 had happened from that area where you heard that shooting?
2 A. I heard that people had been shot. I didn't go there. I only
3 heard about it.
4 Q. Sir, I want to ask you some questions now about a different
5 topic. During this same approximate period of time, do you recall
6 receiving an order to send some of your men somewhere?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber about this order you received?
9 A. A courier arrived with a tractor. He asked me for five men to go
10 to the co-op building in Pilica. At that point in time, I had six men at
11 my disposal. It was very hard for me to decide who to separate out. My
12 assistant suggested I should send all six so as not to bring upon myself
13 the wrath of those five I selected. So I sent them all with the courier,
14 and he drove them to Pilica in the tractor. What they did there, I
15 simply did not check.
16 Q. Okay. Let me just interrupt you, if I could, sir, and ask you a
17 couple of follow-up questions. When this courier arrived, can you tell
18 the Trial Chamber, with as much detail as you can remember, what the
19 courier told you was being asked of you, and why?
20 A. He asked for five men to go to Pilica to load the men who had
21 been liquidated down there in the co-op building.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Could the witness specify more clearly this
23 courier, whose courier or on behalf of whom?
24 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President, we are hopefully getting
1 Q. Sir, I presume you understood His Honour's question. On whose
2 behalf was this courier?
3 A. The courier arrived from the battalion command, from Lokanj. He
4 took over the men and he drove them off to Pilica.
5 Q. As you sit here today, sir, do you recall who this courier was,
6 his name?
7 A. No, I don't recall.
8 Q. And when you refer to the battalion command from Lokanj, you're
9 referring to the 1st Battalion command; is that correct?
10 A. Yes. That was the only battalion that was located in Lokanj.
11 Q. You indicated that this courier arrived with a tractor. Was
12 there anything attached to the tractor and was the courier alone, sir?
13 A. Let me tell you, I didn't go out to see, but he must have been
14 driving other men from Lokanj, and then he loaded my men on there as
16 Q. And was this on -- on a tractor or on something that the tractor
17 was hauling?
18 A. The tractor had a trailer. You couldn't fit more people than one
19 on a tractor, to sit normally, so a trailer was used.
20 Q. Now, I want to go back, sir, and just ask you a couple of more
21 questions in more detail about what you did in response to receiving this
22 order from the battalion command. How did you communicate this order to
23 your men, sir?
24 A. He asked me orally for them to go. These were elderly men and
25 they were good people, honest people. They obeyed orders and agreed to
2 Q. And did you personally communicate this order to your men? And
3 if you did, can you describe for the Trial Chamber how you did?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. And what was their reaction to receiving this order?
6 A. I transmitted the order personally. I was able to issue orders
7 but, instead, I simply asked them to go, and I saw that the expression of
8 their face indicated they didn't like it, they didn't want to go. And
9 one of them actually ran away, but nobody reported him and nothing
10 happened to him. There weren't any consequences for him.
11 Q. So after your men left with the courier, what did you do next?
12 A. With my assistant, Perisa, we sat on a tractor, loaded some food
13 and drove it up to the kitchen of the Lokanj Battalion.
14 Q. Now, do you recall the names of any of your men who left for the
15 Pilica cooperative? Or actually, sir, is the -- let me start over.
16 Do you recall any of the names of the men, of your men, who left
17 with the courier?
18 A. I remember the names of three of them. I can't recall the names
19 of the other three. Dusan Trivkovic, Jevto Lazarevic and Stevo Ostojic.
20 And then I heard that Ostojic ran away as soon as he had an opportunity.
21 He didn't dare do that kind of work. So it was Jevto Lazarevic, Dusan
22 Trivkovic and Stevo Lazarevic [as interpreted].
23 Q. And, sir, where exactly in Pilica was it your understanding that
24 your men were being sent to remove the bodies of the executed men?
25 A. They were taken to the co-op building in Pilica.
1 Q. And is that also known as the cultural centre or the Pilica Dom?
2 A. The Dom was built in 1944, to be the co-op centre for
3 Gornji Sepak and Pilica. There was also a hole there in the reading
4 room, so it was both a cultural centre and an agricultural centre from
5 the 50s onwards.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was built in
8 A. I spent my entire working life there and was pensioned off there.
9 That's where my office was.
10 Q. And were you ever at the Dom while corpses were being removed by
11 your men?
12 A. I didn't go for as many as 10 days.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was at least 10
14 days that I didn't go there, at least 10 days, although my wife was
15 working there in the shop, but I didn't want to go there for at least 10
17 MR. THAYER:
18 Q. And during the same approximate time period, sir, did you ever
19 receive an order to help guard the Muslim prisoners at the school in
21 A. No. In view of the fact that the school was at least 3 or maybe
22 4 kilometres away, they found local people to secure the school or
23 probably whoever organised it from the battalion found men in the
24 battalion, but my men were not recruited to guard the school.
25 Q. So it's your testimony, sir, that you never participated in any
1 way in guarding the school in Pilica during this time?
2 A. No, no, I did not.
3 Q. And, sir, do you have any information about the bodies of
4 executed prisoners being buried on the Agroprom property during this same
5 period of time?
6 A. I heard there was a mass grave up there, right behind the farm,
7 where the liquidation took place, but I did not go to see that for
9 Q. And do you have any information, sir, that earth-moving equipment
10 or any other heavy machinery was working in the area of that property
11 during this period of time?
12 A. I, personally, neither heard nor saw that, but those bodies were
13 taken away, they were moved. I don't know where to.
14 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber how you learned that this
15 removal happened?
16 A. Only through rumours. There were rumours going around. I had no
17 direct information.
18 Q. Well, do you recall speaking with anybody in particular who told
19 you at the time that the bodies were being dug up and removed?
20 A. I don't recall speaking to someone in particular. I heard it in
22 Q. Sir, the last thing I'd like to spend a couple of minutes doing
23 with you today is looking at a map which you brought with you yesterday
24 to our proofing session, and on which you made some markings, and we have
25 made hard copies and distributed them to Defence counsel. We have copies
1 for the Court as well.
2 MR. THAYER: It's unfortunately -- Mr. Lakic brought this map
3 which is quite large and could not be scanned or given an ERN quickly
4 enough, but we can use the -- the ELMO to work with it for just a short
5 period of time. And I can hand up extra copies for the Court and the
6 original for Madam Usher.
7 For the record we have gone ahead and given this a P number, and
8 it's P02505.
9 Q. Now, sir, feel free to look at your computer screen or to -- to
10 look at the original that's at your side on this machine where
11 Madam Usher is standing, whichever is easier for you, sir.
12 First, can you just explain to the Trial Chamber what this --
13 what this document is? I don't want to talk about anything particular on
14 it, but --
15 A. Can I see? Do you have --
16 Q. Sir, if you just look to your side, we have the original right
17 there. If that's easier for you, feel free.
18 A. This part is the military farm.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. This part here. That's -- let's call it a farm. And towards
21 Bijeljina, we go in this direction, and that leads to the stable. This
22 part marked here is where the stables of the farm were, the pigsties, in
23 fact, where the pigs were kept.
24 Q. Okay. Let me just stop you right there, if I could, and we'll
25 take this step by step. First, can you just explain what this map is?
1 Where did you get it? I note that there are a lot of little squares.
2 Can you just tell the Trial Chamber what this is, first?
3 A. In view of the fact that this farm has now been divided up for
4 refugees from all over Bosnia, they are here from every corner, Zenica or
5 Varazdin or I don't know where from, all over the place, these are little
6 squares indicating the plots of land. There are over a thousand houses
7 on this farm now where these people have moved in and where they are now
9 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that the military farm and the
10 property that had the stables no longer exist as they did in July of
11 1995? Is that correct, sir?
12 A. It was all levelled by earth-moving equipment. The only bit left
13 is a bit at the end, which isn't indicated here, where the farm machinery
14 of the Semberija farm used to be kept which was used at the Branjevo
15 Farm. All the rest has been levelled by earth-moving equipment, and they
16 are planning to build a school there, a police station, and various other
17 infrastructure facilities.
18 Q. Okay. Let's talk about some of the markings you made on this map
19 yesterday. You used your pointer a second ago, and I'd just ask you to
20 do it again, and if you would, outline the area that you referred to as
21 the military farm. If you would do it on the original, on the -- on the
22 machine, please.
23 A. [Indicates].
24 Q. And that is the roughly triangular-shaped marking, okay. I
25 notice that there is an X that's been marked just on the other side.
1 What does that X depict, sir?
2 A. My house.
3 Q. And is that a road that runs between your house and the military
4 farm? I see the word "put".
5 A. This road is the old road leading to Zvornik. It's the
6 Zvornik-Bijeljina road, which was used from Austro-Hungarian times as the
7 main road until the new road was built lower down, and this road remained
8 as a local road for the Branjevo Farm.
9 Q. Okay. And looking at this map, which direction is Zvornik, to
10 the right or to the left?
11 A. Zvornik is in this direction and Bijeljina's in this direction.
12 So this is the direction from Zvornik towards Bijeljina.
13 Q. So you're indicating that Zvornik is to the right, and Bijeljina
14 is to the left; is that correct, sir?
15 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes.
16 Q. Now, you mentioned that there was an infirmary or a doctor's
17 office in which you had some space that you used as -- as your office for
18 your platoon. Can you just indicate where that is in relation to your
20 A. [Indicates].
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. This part here. And above it is a house that was built for the
23 doctor and the nurse, and we were in the nurse's flat. We used it.
24 Q. And just for the record, you indicated that this office is
25 located to the left of your house as we look at the map.
1 Now, sir, to the right on this map, you've also made a couple of
2 markings, it looks like a sort of a semi-circle with a rectangle. Can
3 you just explain to the Trial Chamber what that area depicts?
4 A. This part here, there were stables where, while the Semberija
5 farm still existed, in Yugoslav times, it bred cattle, and we had 25 sows
6 there, for Pilica. Turnos [phoen] Pilica Agroprom kept animals there.
7 Q. And at some point, did you also keep the pigs that the military
8 farm was raising in that same area, sir?
9 A. In 1994, in the upper stable, there were four or five sows. I
10 don't think we ever had 10 sows. And then the battalion commander
11 proposed that we build a small pigsty in this area here, 12 by 5 metres
12 in size, and to start keeping them there. But when we finished that, the
13 farm was disbanded. So the small pigsty that we built using wooden
14 boards was never actually used.
15 Q. Okay. And, sir, just for the record, you indicated the location
16 where you had built the pigsty on the military farm property as being at
17 approximately the corner on the right-hand side of this triangular area
18 which you had indicated, and previously, when you were describing the
19 stables in which you had also kept the military farm's pigs [Realtime
20 transcript error read "pharmacy"] that was in the rectangular-shaped
21 marking which you made to the right of the map; is that correct?
22 A. This here, I marked the stables. There was no pharmacy there.
23 Q. No. That must be a -- I must have misspoken. No -- no reference
24 to pharmacy for sure. I think we are referring to the --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't blame him because actually what we have in
1 the transcript is on line 11 "in which you also kept the military
2 pharmacy pigs." So with genetic manipulation today, I mean, you can well
3 imagine that it could exist, but not at the time.
4 MR. THAYER:
5 Q. In any event, again you're referring to this rectangular shape
6 that you marked to the right; is that correct, sir?
7 A. I do apologise. What precisely are you referring to? Here,
8 there were stables. There was nothing resembling a pharmacy at all.
9 Q. We understand that, sir. It was simply a translation area --
10 error. The English word for farm got translated as pharmacy, so we have
11 no intention of placing a pharmacy on the farm land. I apologise for
12 that -- that confusion.
13 Now, can you describe -- this is my last question, sir, you'll be
14 glad to hear. Can you describe the -- what kind of land surrounded this
15 property that had the stable on it? What was it used for?
16 A. This part here where the squares are, that was the agricultural
17 land which was cultivated, and we grew wheat, barley, and similar grain
18 there previously. Later on, other people cultivated it but not well.
19 This land used to belong to the Semberija company, and then just before
20 the war, our people from Agroprom took that over. I don't know how they
21 did that, what the legal basis for -- I know that there is still a case
22 pending about it in court, because Semberija used to be one of the
23 largest agricultural companies in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina. As for
24 the rest of the land, it was used to warehouse cattle fodder there.
25 MR. THAYER: Okay. Sir, that's all the questions I have for you
1 right now, and, I again just ask if now is a time for a break, I'm sure
2 your request will be granted before we start.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Thayer, I remember you put the question where
4 this map was from. I do not remember you get the answer. I'm
5 particularly interested in knowing when this map was drawn. Thank you.
6 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Sir, did you understand His Honour's question?
8 A. Yes. I did understand. I went to our town planning office.
9 They were working on a house-building project, and I asked them to give
10 me a map so that I would be able to indicate precisely the plot of land
11 that was used. When we had our interview, I was unable to show that this
12 was separate from the rest of the farm, this piece where my workers were.
13 This is how I came across this map.
14 Q. And do you know when this map was drawn, when it was created,
15 sir? Perhaps a year?
16 A. Well, to tell you the truth, as soon as they started moving them
17 out, it began then, but I wouldn't be able to tell you exact day because
18 land surveyors came to survey the land, and they started putting markings
19 on it and markings intended for houses that were going to be built there.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: When did he procure it?
21 MR. THAYER:
22 Q. Did you understand Mr. President's question, sir? When did you
23 get the map?
24 A. Perhaps 15 days ago.
25 JUDGE KWON: And, Mr. Thayer, I take it that it is not your
1 intention to put any of the aerial image of Branjevo Farm to -- to this
3 MR. THAYER: No, that's correct, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 MR. THAYER: There was one -- one other photograph that I had
6 considered showing but in the interests of saving a little bit of time,
7 I've decided just to show him the map.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you, Judge Kwon and thank you,
9 Mr. Thayer.
10 Mr. Lakic, would you like a short break now? Would you like to
11 leave the courtroom for a while or shall we continue?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be better, given
13 my health condition, to allow me to leave.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll have a short break now. We were
15 going to have the break in 25 minutes' time in any case, so we'll have a
16 five -- few minutes' break now, and then we'll have the break at quarter
17 to 11.00. All right?
18 --- Break taken at 10.20 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.31 a.m.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: He'll be right here, but we can start. I'm here.
21 No problem.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I have on my list the Beara team requesting
23 one hour, the Nikolic team 45 minutes, and then the Popovic and
24 Pandurevic 30 minutes each, and Miletic and Gvero teams 10 minutes each.
25 So let's start doing the rounds. Mr. Zivanovic?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour, we will not cross-examine
2 this witness. Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Zivanovic.
4 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I believe we had modified
5 our one hour down -- downwards, and at this point we have no questions
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. And Madam Nikolic?
8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Not longer than 10 minutes, Your
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you proceed, then, please? Thank you.
11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
12 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Good morning, sir.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. I would like to put some questions to you concerning your
16 evidence today, the part of your testimony on page 18, lines 14 to 23.
17 You said that you did not receive any order to provide security at the
18 Pilica school, nor did you personally provide security at the school in
19 Pilica in July of 1995; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know whether any of your people from the work platoon
22 headed by Jevto Bogdanovic provided security and stood guard by the
23 school in Pilica?
24 A. I'm not aware of that.
25 Q. Were your men issued with weapons during that period of time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. If they provided security without you knowing about that, would
3 they have been issued weapons then?
4 A. Well, it depends on who assigned them there, who ordered them to
5 do that.
6 Q. But you never issued such order to them, did you?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Nikolic.
11 Madam Fauveau?
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. Mr. Josse?
14 MR. JOSSE: The same, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Sarapa or Mr. Haynes? I don't
16 know. I see Mr. Sarapa on his toes. Go ahead.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lakic.
19 A. Please go ahead.
20 Q. You remember the beginning of the war. Is it true that village
21 guards were established in Serbian villages and then platoons and then
22 finally companies?
23 A. Yes, mostly so.
24 Q. Can you confirm that in the territory of Pilica, a battalion was
25 formed, and in the territory of Lokanj, another one?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Is it true that defence positions could be found at the approach
3 to the villages of Pilica and Lokanj facing the Muslim village of Delca
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it true that during the war, that Pilica and Lokanj Battalion
7 merged into the 1st Zvornik Battalion?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know that commanders of companies succeeded one another
11 A. That's mostly true. I am unable to enumerate all of those names
12 because they changed so frequently.
13 Q. Is it true that defence positions which were established in 1992
14 in the very beginning of the war remained the same in July 1995?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was the command post of the battalion located in the village of
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it true that the positions of the battalion were some 10
20 kilometres from Branjevo and Pilica?
21 A. At least 10 kilometres.
22 Q. Is it true that the defence positions of the battalion were never
23 located in the villages of Lokanj and Pilica but, rather, outside of the
24 village facing the Muslim forces?
25 A. They were established as a mountain range between to Delca,
1 Lokanj and Pilica.
2 Q. Please tell me, is it true that the school in Pilica and the
3 culture hall belonged to the municipality, and that they were managed by
4 the municipality and local commune?
5 A. Well, to tell you the truth, the school in Pilica had its own
6 principal. Now, who managed it, I don't know. As for the Dom in Pilica,
7 it mostly had agricultural premises. This was where the agricultural
8 co-op was located, and then there was a dance hall there, if I may call
9 it that.
10 Q. Thank you. Would you please tell me some things about the
11 military farm now. Can you confirm now that this military farm is a
12 separate property of some six hectares of land which was given to the
13 military in order to grow vegetables for the needs of the battalion?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could we see 7D364, please? Would you agree that there were no
16 military facilities located on the farm?
17 A. There weren't any except towards the war, a make-shift shack was
18 built for pigs.
19 Q. I meant something for military facilities.
20 A. Nothing of the military nature.
21 Q. So why was it called military farm? It should have just been
22 called farm.
23 A. Well, this farm was only used to grow vegetables.
24 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could you enlarge it twice, please?
25 Scroll down, please. Yes. Roughly so. Could you scroll down, please?
1 Just a tiny bit more? That's good.
2 Q. Mr. Lakic, do you see this map?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. This is fine. Is this what the farm looked like in 1995 before
5 refugee housing was built there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you please mark on this map --
8 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could the usher please assist the
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you want me to mark?
11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Several things. Would you please mark your own house.
13 A. My house is right here.
14 Q. We can't see it.
15 A. [Marks].
16 Q. This is your house, all right.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Could he put LH there, please, against -- to the
19 right of it, to its right? LH, Lakic house.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You want me to write in here?
21 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Yes, I think that would be right.
23 A. [Marks]. My hand is shaking a bit.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right. No problem. But for the record,
25 he seems to have written Kuca Lakic.
1 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
2 Q. To confirm this for the record, Mr. Lakic, would you agree that
3 your house is drawn in pink?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The blue area next to your house, what is this?
6 A. An infirmary.
7 Q. Would you please put letter A next to it?
8 A. [Marks]. It's roughly here. Is this suitable?
9 Q. For the record, the light blue colour depicts the infirmary;
11 A. [No audible response].
12 Q. Very well. Now, would you please tell us, looking at the area
13 above your house and below the infirmary, what is that?
14 A. Above my house is the land used by Agroprom Zvornik. And this
15 portion here below the house is separated by streams and gullies, and
16 this is the part that belonged to the battalion.
17 Q. Would you please mark, in a different colour, that area? Rather,
18 mark the borders of the farm.
19 A. Can I write on the map?
20 Q. Yes. Would you please mark the area that was given to the army
21 for its purposes?
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. Can you please mark the stables and pigsties?
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, where you have marked the stables and
2 pigsties, next to that rectangle, could you put S, please, the letter S?
3 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And inside the triangle or what is approximately a
5 triangle, could you put the letter farm -- F, please, for farm?
6 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I think we need to stop here for the
8 time being, and we'll continue after the break, Mr. Sarapa.
9 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. How much longer do you have?
11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I think it would be necessary to
12 have a break because I have another 20 minutes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Okay. Thank you.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.17 a.m.
16 JUDGE KWON: As indicated by Judge Agius earlier on, we will sit
17 pursuant to Rule 15 bis, and I have to note for the record that
18 Judge Ole Bjorn Stole is with us now.
19 Please, Mr. Sarapa, please continue.
20 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to
21 give a different coloured marker to the witness so that the stables and
22 pigsties could be marked with another colour, because I wish the blue to
23 be used for the land given to the army for their use only. So can he
24 have a different coloured marker, please? Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Lakic, would you please show us on this map the direction in
1 which Pilica is situated?
2 A. [Marks].
3 Q. Would you please put an arrow at the end of this line when you're
4 coming to the farm or Ekonomija from Pilica?
5 A. That is the direction in which you arrive if you're coming from
7 Q. Could you please put the letter DP, direction Pilica, here?
8 A. [Marks].
9 Q. Fine.
10 A. I apologise for my handwriting.
11 Q. Never mind. So that is the direction from Pilica as you reach
12 the farm.
13 Could you please mark on the map the place of the -- the site of
14 execution, please, roughly?
15 A. Down here somewhere. Somewhere around here. [Marks].
16 Q. Could you put a cross for the site of the execution?
17 A. [Marks].
18 Q. Please put the letter E next to it.
19 A. [Marks].
20 Q. Could you please tell us what is the distance between the area
21 used by the army as an agricultural estate to the site of the execution?
22 A. About 400 metres.
23 Q. I have a few more questions in this connection, but first let me
24 ask you -- can you hear me?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 Q. Could we agree in saying that all the other land outside of this
2 triangle marked in blue, which you said was the land used by the army for
3 agricultural products, was the land managed by Agroprom?
4 A. Yes. The entire area was about 1.450 hectares of arable land and
5 only six hectares out of the total was given to the army for their use.
6 Q. Could you please mark on this map the whole area of the land
7 managed by Agroprom, using a different colour, if you can?
8 A. This is the border, and the entire land here belonged to the
9 agricultural estate Agroprom, and this is a new road on which an asphalt
10 was put quite recently.
11 Q. Is this the Zvornik-Bijeljina road?
12 A. Yes, this road is Zvornik-Bijeljina and this is the old road, but
13 to shorten the distance or for I don't know which reason, it cut across
14 the farm.
15 Q. Could you show us on the map -- no, no, the borders, please, of
16 the Agroprom estate?
17 A. Do you want me to mark it?
18 Q. Yes, please.
19 A. [Marks].
20 Q. Where the green is --
21 A. I can't mark the border. I have some -- the wrong glasses on me.
22 Q. Could you please put AGR, an abbreviation for Agroprom, AGR? You
23 can put it -- the mark on the green area here.
24 A. Can I do it here?
25 Q. Yes, yes.
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. And to the left side of the road?
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. Fine. Mr. Lakic, could you please put your initials on this map
5 in the left-hand corner, in the bottom left-hand corner, LR,
6 Lakic Radivoje, and the date, if you can, please, today's date, and what
7 is it?
8 JUDGE KWON: 19th of April.
9 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] The 19th.
10 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
12 Q. That's fine. I have a few more questions for you. Could we keep
13 this map? Because we will be tendering it into evidence, marked as it
14 has been by the witness. Could you save it, please?
15 Can we agree that this entire area that you have marked in black,
16 the agro-product complex is known as Ekonomija or the Agroprom
17 Agricultural Estate?
18 A. It is the Agroprom Estate, and Agroprom took over the use of this
19 entire area, which previously was owned by Semberija.
20 Q. So, would you agree that it is not an official name that was
21 given to this small area as a military farm, but it was just an area
22 given to the army for use? Can you agree -- can we agree with that, that
23 it cannot be called a military farm but only a section of this whole
25 A. Well, yes. As soon as the war ended, it remained the property of
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Thayer, I didn't have time to give you the
3 floor, but what is your objection?
4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, my objection was that the witness had
5 answered quite extensively and consistently on -- on that issue as to
6 what this area that he commanded, what his platoon worked on, was called.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. But, however, the witness has answered in any
8 way, and we can proceed.
9 Mr. Sarapa.
10 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. A part of the land that was given to the battalion to grow
12 agricultural products, it was farmed by workers from the work platoon.
13 Do you agree?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could we agree that this was a productive platoon, not a combat
17 A. Precisely so.
18 Q. Would you agree with me that this was a group of elderly people
19 who engaged exclusively in farming?
20 A. Yes, all of them. There may have been only one worker who was an
21 employee, all the others were peasants, farmers.
22 Q. Do you agree that no one was executed on this piece of separated
23 land used for feeding the military?
24 A. No other foot stepped on this land except the workers, and there
25 is no question of any executions.
1 Q. You have no direct knowledge about the executions, do you?
2 A. Only what I heard later on, but I neither went there, nor did I
3 see anything.
4 Q. The day that this was happening was a Sunday. Is it true that
5 neither you nor any other members of the platoon were working that day
6 and that you were not present?
7 A. That is right.
8 Q. So in this part of the land separated for the use of the army,
9 there was no presence by you or anyone else from the work platoon?
10 A. There wasn't.
11 Q. Could we agree in saying that none of the executed persons was
12 buried in this part of the land? Is it also true that you have no direct
13 knowledge about the burials?
14 A. I don't.
15 Q. In July 1995, is it true that there was nothing of a military
16 nature in the area belonging to Agroprom, the area outside of these six
17 hectares given to you for farming?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And one further question, you said in answer to a question from
20 the Prosecutor on the map shown to you and the little squares, that these
21 were plots on which refugee houses have been built, housing people from
22 all over Bosnia, I think you said?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you tell me what ethnicities those refugees are?
25 A. They are of Serb ethnicity and of no other, but I think they come
1 from some 20 to 50 different municipalities of the Republic of
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. I
5 would just like to point out that the map shown by the Defence was
6 prepared by an official body. It has a stamp and a signature, and it has
7 been fully authenticated, and there is the original in a larger scale.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.
10 Mr. Thayer, do you have any re-examination?
11 MR. THAYER: I do, Mr. President, just briefly, if I may.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.
13 MR. THAYER: I'll pick up more or less where my learned colleague
14 just left off, and with the assistance of Madam Usher, if I could hand a
15 document to the witness to be placed on the ELMO in -- it's a two-sided
16 document. The English translation is on the bottom, but if we could put
17 the B/C/S, and I have copies for the Court.
18 This is a document that I had not intended to lead with this
19 witness but given the cross-examination, I think it's appropriate to do
20 so. I've notified Defence counsel that the witness was shown this
21 document during his proofing session and electronically sent copies plus
22 hard copies to them last night.
23 Sir, do you -- and for the record, the document is ERN 0073-3281.
24 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:
25 Q. Sir, if it's easier to look at the original document to your
1 side, please do so. Take your time and just take a look at that
2 document, and I ask you if you recognise that as a document that you
3 looked at yesterday during your meeting with me?
4 A. Yes. I do recognise it.
5 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is?
6 A. It is an appointment to the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade and the
7 1st Infantry Battalion appointed as manager of the military farm.
8 Q. That's appointing you as the manager of the military farm; is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. THAYER: Now, if we may have 7D00364 on e-court, please.
12 JUDGE KWON: Marked one?
13 MR. THAYER: The unmarked, Mr. President, thank you.
14 JUDGE KWON: Unmarked one.
15 MR. THAYER: The clean version.
16 Okay. I see we have a marked version but that's okay, we'll --
17 okay. I'm looking at my old screen, I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE KWON: It's being changed. It's coming.
19 MR. THAYER:
20 Q. Okay. Sir, you're familiar with this -- this map. Would you
21 please just take the stylus that's at the side of the -- and Madam Usher
22 will help you, if you need it, and please just draw an arrow pointing to
23 the stable where your military farm had its pigs at some point.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Okay. And if it's possible, could you get the arrow just a
1 little closer to the exact building you're referring to? Because it's
2 kind of in between the two right now.
3 A. [Marks].
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Sarapa? I think it's on now.
5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] The question was for the witness to
6 mark on the military farm. Could it be made clear to the witness? I
7 think he didn't quite understand. The question was where the pigsties
8 were on the military farm, and he has marked the military farm as this
9 triangle down here next to his house. So could this be cleared up with
10 the witness? I think that the witness has not understood the question.
11 MR. THAYER: Respectfully, Mr. President, I think the witness
12 testified as to stables on the -- what he referred to as the Agroprom
13 property where he had some pigs, I think it's clear that he understands
14 my question. I don't think my question was unclear, and I don't see
15 anywhere where he's marking anything near his house, unless I'm looking
16 at a different exhibit.
17 Perhaps we have a translation issue, but I think the witness has
18 understood the question, and he's marked the -- the exhibit accordingly.
19 I didn't ask him to mark anything on the military farm. I referred to
20 the pigs that his military farm was raising, which he had referred to in
21 his direct testimony, being on the property he referred to as the
22 Agroprom property stables, and that's what I believe he has marked. I
23 don't think we need any further clarification.
24 JUDGE KWON: I think the question was clear, and his marking was
25 consistent with prior testimony, but I have to consult with my
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Thayer.
4 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Sir, if you would just --
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Mr. Sarapa?
7 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we specify the time we are
8 referring to? Could the Prosecutor ask the witness in what year this
9 was? What year we are talking about when these pigsties were used?
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, no problem.
12 Q. Sir, did you understand the question from my learned colleague?
13 Can you provide a year during which your pigs were being raised on this
14 property and when they were slaughtered, if you remember?
15 A. In a part of the stable, of this stable here that I've marked,
16 the upper one, there was a small area with a few pigs, and these were
17 ordered by certain organisations and they were slaughtered very quickly.
18 So that in 1994, they were in this area, and afterwards, in the spring,
19 we started building in this military area a stable, 12 by 5, to which the
20 pigs were never moved to, and they were never moved to this pigsty.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. If you would just place your initials and
22 today's date, perhaps, on the lower left-hand corner of the exhibit, and
23 then we'll be done with it.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Sir, if you could just correct the date? Today is the 19th.
1 Just change that 8 to a 9.
2 A. I apologise.
3 Q. Thank you. And I think we are done with this exhibit so we can
4 save it, please.
5 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, can I ask the witness what
6 KO Pilica means? Did you understand K -- there is a --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The cadastre municipality, KO.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 MR. THAYER:
10 Q. Okay. Lastly, sir, if we could have page 212 of P02103 shown on
12 Sir, do you see an image on your screen?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Okay. And perhaps I can just ask you one or two questions to
15 help tie -- tie up the couple of maps that you were shown today, place it
16 in some context. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this depicts?
17 A. This photograph depicts the location of the part of the farm
18 where the stables were of the former agricultural cooperative Semberija,
19 and then Agroprom of Zvornik, and the work unit Pilica. These -- that is
20 what these buildings are, which no longer exist.
21 Q. Just to tie these various exhibits together, sir, can you take
22 that stylus and just draw an arrow pointing down to the structure that
23 was the stables that housed the military farm's pigs at some point in
25 A. [Marks]. The pigs from the military farm were placed in the
1 upper stable, which is not shown here. There was the first stable and
2 then the second stable on the left side.
3 Q. Okay. Are you saying that it's nowhere depicted in this
4 photograph or just partially depicted?
5 A. No, no. The stables were bigger. The stables are not shown
6 because they are not shown fully. They are bigger than shown here. I
7 think that they were 3 by 3 at the most, where the pigs were.
8 Q. Okay. And so is this arrow that you're -- that you've drawn here
9 depicting the approximate area where that stable was located, to the best
10 of your recollection, then? Or would it be more helpful to put the arrow
11 somewhere else to describe where the stable was where you had your
12 military farm pigs?
13 A. Can I put it on this side?
14 Q. I think you can technically. Yes, I'm being told yes.
15 A. [Marks].
16 Q. Okay. So should we just erase that first arrow, please?
17 A. [Erases].
18 Q. And, sir, I'd just ask you to again initial this photograph and
19 place today's date on it.
20 A. [Marks]. I apologise for my handwriting.
21 Q. Not at all, sir. Okay. Thank you, I think we can save it and
22 then we'll be done with this exhibit.
23 Just two quick questions, sir. Do you recall whether there were
24 any cherry trees located either on this property that's depicted here or
25 on the actual military farm property?
1 A. At the military farm land, there were no fruit trees whatsoever.
2 This was just arable land. Around the building, there used to exist old
3 orchards, rather the yards of people who used to live there. There was a
4 German settlement there in the old Yugoslavia. Where the stables were,
5 there grew some apples, apricots and pear trees.
6 Q. And did your military farm ever raise corn among its vegetables
7 and produce?
8 A. Well, yes. I think that there were two hectares of corn and then
9 there was some tobacco, and if you need figures, there were over 10.000
10 tomato plants, peas, cabbage, tobacco, potato and the like. Garden
12 Q. Sir, I thank you. I have no further questions.
13 A. You're welcome.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Lakic. Oh, just a second.
15 Mr. Sarapa?
16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I think that something remained not
17 clear concerning the pigs that were raised there in 1994, and about
18 whether they were ever moved or not. I would like to clarify that.
19 Would you allow me to put a question to the witness inquiring as to what
20 happened to the pigs which used to be raised there in 1994, and whether
21 they were ever moved from that area to this other area which was given to
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were slaughtered as needed and
24 sent to the kitchens.
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, just a second, Mr. Lakic. Would you
1 be opposed to that suggestion, Mr. Thayer?
2 MR. THAYER: Under the circumstances, Mr. President, no.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Could you answer that question? Could
4 you proceed? Is that sufficient or you would pursue further?
5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]. [Microphone not activated].
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Sarapa.
7 Further cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa: [Interpretation]:
8 Q. I would like to clarify in which year they were slaughtered?
9 A. Well, let me tell you, they were slaughtered in early 1995. We
10 never moved them to the newly-built pigsty.
11 MR. SARAPA: [No interpretation].
12 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your last comment again? We heard
13 no interpretation.
14 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please. Thank you.
15 I think that this has been resolved. However, I just received notice
16 concerning the cherry trees. Something was not recorded in the
17 transcript; namely, that there were never any cherry trees grown on the
18 land which was given to the army for its use. Could we clarify this as
20 JUDGE KWON: Is that a matter of the transcript?
21 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. This relates to the
22 transcript, an error in transcript.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
24 MR. THAYER: Respectfully, Mr. President, I think the question
25 was -- was answered at page 44, line 5, at the military farm land there
1 were no fruit trees whatsoever, and he went on to describe other fruit
2 trees located elsewhere. I think the question has been asked and
4 JUDGE KWON: The issue may be that -- whether the witness had
5 specifically said that there were -- there had been no cherry trees. Did
6 you say that, Mr. Lakic?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that there were no cherry
8 trees whatsoever. I have lived there for 30 years. In this portion here
9 where the stables are, that used to be an orchard which belonged to the
10 German settlement.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Lakic. That concludes
12 your testimony, and I thank you on behalf of the Tribunal for coming to
13 the Tribunal to give it, and now you are free to go.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE KWON: Shall we deal with exhibits?
17 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. We have a slightly modified
18 tender list. We have P02103 -- I'm sorry, yeah - thank you - we have
19 PIC 0093, which is page 212 of P02103. That was marked by the witness
20 just now during his redirect examination.
21 We have PIC 00092, which is a marked version by the witness
22 during his redirect examination of Defence Exhibit 7D00364.
23 Mr. President, we would also tender P02506, which is the Zvornik
24 Brigade order assigning the witness to be the manager of the military
25 farm. That was also shown to him during his redirect examination. That
1 is now in e-court. For the record, the ERN on that is 0073-3281 to
2 0073-3281. That's the B/C/S. The English translation is at 0086-1117 to
4 Finally, we would offer P02505, which is the map of this area
5 brought by the witness himself and marked prior to his testimony.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Would there be any objection
7 on -- from the Defence? Mr. Haynes?
8 MR. HAYNES: Not really objection. I can't see what purpose
9 there is in putting in the map that -- a very small portion of which we
10 saw on the ELMO. It's a map of the land as it is now. It was pre-marked
11 by the witness before he came into court. And the whole of the map has
12 not been used in these proceedings and has not even been seen by the
13 accused or any of us. We only saw a rather small portion of it. And it
14 seems to me that the witness now having dealt with a scale map of the
15 whole relevant area and marked and signed it in the course of the
16 proceedings, that is a rather better piece of evidence to -- for the
17 Trial Chamber to rely on in coming to any decision. The -- the modern
18 map on the ELMO seemed to me to be very little evidential value at all.
19 JUDGE KWON: You're talking about P02505?
20 MR. HAYNES: Precisely, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Thayer?
22 MR. THAYER: To the contrary, Mr. President, the map brought in
23 by the witness himself and marked by the witness is of high probative
24 value. My learned friends have had the entire map in hard copy. It was
25 here. It is pretty much repeated by the exhibit that my learned friend
1 wants to tender and basically repeated the direct testimony, and so I
2 think both are probative. You could see that I actually asked the
3 witness to mark something on my learned friend's exhibit as well, but I
4 think altogether they are useful for the Court to illustrate where these
5 areas were, and they've had -- they have the entire map that was used,
6 just as the portions of other maps are used, that's no reason to exclude
7 introducing a map into evidence. I don't think we need to establish a
8 precedent of using an entire map before it's introduced.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I didn't see this objection as a real
10 objection, as Mr. Haynes stated.
11 MR. HAYNES: No, I mean, I've got the reply. I was inviting the
12 Prosecution to be economical with the sort of evidence you've got to
13 consider and sensible about what is probative and what has properly been
14 dealt with during the course of evidence, but apparently they want to put
15 in this map, so: So be it.
16 JUDGE KWON: We will admit them, and it is for the Chamber to
17 assess the weight of any map at a later stage.
18 MR. HAYNES: Can I come to a second document?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
20 MR. HAYNES: The document that was shown to the witness in
21 re-examination, the order assigning him his duties as a member of the
22 1st Battalion has no 65 ter number, as I understand it. It was not
23 served upon us as a document that was going to be used with this witness,
24 notwithstanding the fact it was shown to him during proofing, and
25 although it is now in e-court, the English version has not been shown to
1 the Court. I've got a copy of the English version, and crucially, of
2 course, in the -- yes, thank you. Crucially, I would like to place on
3 the record that in the English version, the assignment is of him as
4 manager of an army farm, not the military farm, as was stated in its
5 introduction into evidence just now.
6 JUDGE KWON: I note that in B/C/S, it's Vojna Ekonomija.
7 MR. HAYNES: Yes. Which is army, of course.
8 I make the principled objection that there is no 65 ter number,
9 but I accept that it's a document that probably was properly used in
11 JUDGE KWON: So it is not an objection either.
12 MR. HAYNES: You heard what I said.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 And having said that -- just a second.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: I would like to note at this moment that the Chamber
17 had a ruling earlier on that the fact that a document has not a 65 number
18 does not prohibit it from being admitted. Having said that and having
19 noted the statement by Mr. Haynes, the Chamber will admit them all.
20 Mr. Haynes, you have some documents? Mr. Sarapa or Mr. Haynes?
21 MR. HAYNES: I'll deal with it. I propose to -- I propose to
22 seek to admit into evidence two documents. They're 7D364, which is the
23 plan of the farm in its original and unmarked form. The advantage being,
24 of course, in that form you can zoom in and zoom out, so I would suggest
25 that it's appropriate that that goes into evidence.
1 Because we broke in the middle of the witness's evidence, the
2 document that he marked has been saved under two numbers, 7DIC 90, which
3 is the document number saved at the break, and 7DIC 91, the document
4 saved at the end of his testimony, and signed and dated by him. I don't
5 seek to put into evidence the document saved at the break, the partially
6 marked document, but only 7DIC 91.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. No opposition?
8 MR. THAYER: No objection, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. They are so admitted.
10 Any preliminaries? Any administrative matters? Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. As I mentioned briefly, we had
12 e-mailed the -- we e-mailed court officers last night. As you know, it's
13 not our habit to e-mail the Chambers directly or the Judges directly.
14 We -- there was an accelerated pace, and I'm sure you've noticed, of the
15 witnesses, and we, up until last night, were trying to bring in people to
16 meet that accelerated pace.
17 We unfortunately were not able to, based on a number of the usual
18 problems with the witnesses' schedules, visa -- changing visas, this kind
19 of thing.
20 Just to show you where we got into trouble, and this is not meant
21 as a criticism to anybody because we appreciate the targeted
22 cross-examinations, but the estimates that we were partially basing our
23 estimates on were the problem. The Prosecution estimated five hours, and
24 our actual was four hours and 45 minutes. That's partly due to luck.
25 Some witnesses went over and some witnesses went under, but the Defence
1 total estimate was 12 and a half hours, and their actual was five and a
2 half hours. That left us seven hours. We built in a one-day insurance
3 policy, when it turned into two days, that's where we ran into the
5 I am going to work with the victim witness to try to bring this
6 into a two-day insurance policy. We did that before the break, and we
7 had people stacked up here for two weeks, but I just don't know any other
8 way to do it. And I understand the Defence has to estimate how long our
9 direct will be, and then they have to estimate what their other
10 colleagues are going to -- how long they are going to be, so their
11 estimates -- they are in a very difficult position to estimate. So, as I
12 say, it is not meant as a criticism but this is what we base our -- as
13 best we can, on our estimate. So this is the problem we find ourselves
15 And I will try to make sure it doesn't happen again, but it's
16 just, as you can tell, difficult.
17 I do have some handouts on another topic which I -- which will
18 explain to Court and counsel some of the witnesses we intend to -- to ask
19 for withdrawal and our estimates of future witness time, if the Court
20 would like to take time to do that. I've got copies for people here. If
21 you want to do that in open court or we can -- it can be handed out and
22 people can see it after court. It all is up to you.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE KWON: If we can be handed over, those copies right now.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could get some help.
1 JUDGE KWON: But no discussion today.
2 Thank you, Mr. McCloskey, for your statement, and I would
3 recommend very much to the parties to have dialogues for mutual
4 cooperation in updating the estimates, et cetera.
5 So noting there is no further administrative matters, the hearing
6 is now adjourned until -- Mr. Lazarevic.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise, Your Honour. While technically it's
8 not an administrative matter, but I was asked by my client as well as
9 other co-accused in this case to raise one issue before the Trial
10 Chamber. It has to do with their transportation back to the Detention
12 It is obvious that we are going to adjourn earlier today, just as
13 it was the situation yesterday, and the transportation of all the accused
14 happens hours after we adjourn. So they spend two, sometimes three
15 hours, in these small cells without any comfort, without possibility to
16 use toilet and everything, and they feel very uncomfortable about this.
17 So if the Trial Chamber can assist us in a situation like this
18 and ask the Registry to organise their transportation back to the
19 Detention Unit as soon as practical after we adjourn.
20 JUDGE KWON: I thank you, but my understanding is that the
21 transportation is partly -- is falling on the purview of the Dutch
22 police, not by the security guards. I think that's the problem, but I
23 will look into the matter.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE KWON: I was also informed that in addition to that matter,
1 the Dutch police is in charge of transporting the other group of accused,
2 and there is some problem. But I will ask the registry to look into the
3 matter, whether there can be some improvement.
4 Having said that, we are adjourned until Monday morning, and I
5 hope everybody will have a nice weekend.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.11 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of April,
8 2007, at 9.00 a.m.