Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10399

1 Tuesday, 24 April 2007

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everybody.

8 Madam Registrar, could you kindly call the case, please?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, this is case number

10 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor v. Vujadin Popovic et al.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All the accused are here, all the Defence

12 teams are present and everyone is present, yes. And Mr. McCloskey and

13 Mr. Vanderpuye for the Prosecution. The witness is already in his place.

14 Mr. Tanic, good afternoon to you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back. I hope you've had time for a good

17 rest. We are going to resume your testimony and hopefully finish it

18 today.

19 WITNESS: Tanacko Tanic [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

22 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon, Judges.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

24 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, colleagues.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon: [Continued]

Page 10400

1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Tanic.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. You'll be glad to hear I only have a few questions after reading

4 my notes.

5 MR. BOURGON: I would ask, Mr. President, with the assistance of

6 the usher, that a document be given to the witness. It's a document which

7 was given to my colleague from the Prosecution, and it's simply an extract

8 from his interview with the Prosecution. The number of this document in

9 e-court is 1D267, but I don't think it's required to put it on the e-court

10 or the ELMO, as long as the witness can read the little segment I want to

11 refer him to.

12 Q. Mr. Tanic -- can you hear me, Mr. Tanic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. First of all, I'd like to say that this question refers to

15 something you mentioned yesterday in response to a question from the

16 Prosecution. You said that you saw, in Orahovac, a policeman in uniform

17 who was from Doboj. For the purposes of my colleague, that was on page 24

18 yesterday, lines 18 to 21. And I would just like to clarify a bit this

19 issue with you, so I would like you to look at the document which was just

20 given to you. On the first page of this document, where it says at the

21 bottom: "15 of 16", and there is a part of this document which is in a

22 box, and I would just like you to read for yourself what is in that box.

23 And this is -- it comes from your interview that you gave to the Office of

24 the Prosecution in June of 2002. I will read the English version for the

25 sake of the Trial Chamber. Question: "When did you learn that the Doboj

Page 10401

1 police was present at Orahovac?"

2 Answer: "As soon as I arrived, there was a big man. There

3 was a big man in police uniform, a blue uniform, who said he was from

4 Doboj, so they were talking. I did not ask him anything or --" and then

5 it stops there for a second question.

6 Do you read this in your language before you now?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'd now like to refer you to the third page in the document that

9 you have before you, and this third page bears the number 1 of 155 at the

10 bottom. And again there is a box there which I will read in English, and

11 I would ask you to read it in your own language. And it goes like this:

12 Question: "Okay. Did you meet these men in blue camouflage

13 uniform at Orahovac school?"

14 The response: "On the road in front of the school."

15 Question: "Was he the only one in this -- in such blue uniform or

16 you also noticed some more people in uniforms?"

17 Response: "I don't know. I just spotted him."

18 Question: "Did you speak to him?"

19 Answer: "No, I did not talk to him, but some people around were

20 talking about -- uh-huh. There is a unit from Doboj, and the guy is also

21 from Doboj."

22 Can you read this in your language before you today?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I now refer you to a third segment also in the document that is

25 before you, and this time it begins on the fourth page of the document, at

Page 10402

1 the bottom where it says "2 of 155". For the sake of the interpreters,

2 it's page 87 of the document 1D267.

3 This was just your answer, and it goes as follows: "There was a

4 rumour that a police unit was present, so not military police unit, but

5 regular police unit that was present in the area."

6 Question: "But you did not see any people who were regular police

7 in the area, did you?"

8 You responded by a question: "You mean regular police

9 investigator?"

10 "The MUP."

11 Your answer was: "Except that one guy, I did not."

12 Did you read this in your language before you today?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, my question is very simple. I would simply like you to

15 confirm that other than this one man or big man dressed in a blue uniform,

16 the possibility of a unit from the MUP being present was nothing but a

17 rumour; is that correct?

18 A. I didn't see anyone except for this one person I told you about.

19 But you can see from this interview that once you mention something, then

20 it goes round in circles. So in various places you have different

21 answers, depending on the approach taken.

22 Q. And the idea, Mr. Tanic, that there was a unit present is only

23 something that you heard, but it was nothing but a rumour; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, that's what I stated, with the exception of that one person I

Page 10403

1 didn't see anyone else. Now, whether he was from there, I don't know

2 myself.

3 Q. Thank you. I move to my next question, and I will ask that the

4 document 3D84 be placed on e-court, please.

5 Mr. Tanic, I will ask you to look in the screen before you- thank

6 you, madam usher, and I have one more question where I need to go back for

7 him to see again.

8 Mr. Tanic, do you recognise the area which is depicted on the

9 screen before you?

10 A. Yes. There's the school, the yard and the cultural centre and the

11 gym.

12 Q. Now, I will ask you to mark just three things on this sketch,

13 again with the assistance of the usher. We will be giving you a pen, and

14 I would simply like you to make a circle where the stairs that you

15 mentioned yesterday are located.

16 A. I can't find my way on this sketch. I can't see the main road

17 here. These stairs are somewhere behind the cultural centre, somewhere

18 there. Whether it's closer to one end of the building or the other, I

19 think it was closer to the end of the building closer to the school. I

20 think so.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you just draw a circle where you put a little mark

22 in red?

23 A. I may be wrong, though, because it seems that if I err by one

24 metre, this can cause a big problem.

25 Q. I understand your concerns, but your answer is fully in the

Page 10404

1 transcript. Now, my second question on this drawing or on this sketch is

2 whether you can tell the Trial Chamber whether the house where you had

3 coffee with two other persons, if that house is to the left of the stairs

4 indicated in red or to the right, meaning not on this sketch.

5 A. I can't see the house on the sketch. It should be somewhere here

6 behind, or rather you can see it from the stairs looking north. The stairs

7 are not facing the road, and from the stairs, which are slanting, you can

8 see the houses, one or two.

9 Q. And I would just ask you to again take the pen that was given to

10 you, changing colours, any other colour, and simply draw -- make an "X" in

11 the general or approximate area where the house was, the house where you

12 had coffee. Just the general area.

13 A. What if I make a mistake? Somewhere here. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you. Now, yesterday you referred to in your testimony to

15 the house of a Mrs. Vidovic, where you went. Can you confirm that the

16 house of Mrs. Vidovic is not found on this sketch?

17 A. It can't be seen, that's for sure.

18 Q. And I would like you to look at the sketch, and you see where you

19 have the word "Krizevici Put Orahovac." Do you see these words?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, on that road, I would like you to put, completely to the

22 right of the sketch, an arrow which indicates the direction where you were

23 walking to reach the house of Ms. Vidovic.

24 A. I don't know now. You have to get out first. I have to reach the

25 Tuzla-Zvornik road. How can I draw a line? I don't know the roads too

Page 10405

1 well. I would have to go out to the main road. That's what I did. Now,

2 where the main road is, I can't see that. So from this road, I went to

3 the main road and then on foot for about a kilometre. They measured the

4 distance to Mira's house. I'll make a mistake, I can't do it. It may

5 appear that I went in the opposite direction. I don't know what to put.

6 Q. And all I'm asking of you, Mr. Tanic, is to indicate whether you

7 were walking towards the left of the sketch or towards the right of the

8 sketch to reach Mrs. Vidovic's house.

9 A. I really don't know. I would have to see where the main road is

10 and where this road joins it. I can't draw it, I simply can't. So I went

11 to the main road, and along that main road on foot, the road going from

12 Tuzla to Zvornik. Mira's house is on the main road. Zvornik-Tuzla or

13 Tuzla-Zvornik.

14 Q. And, Mr. Tanic, the main road, is it on the left of the sketch or

15 on the right of the sketch?

16 A. I don't know. I don't have a good sense of orientation here. Why

17 is that so important? But if it is important, I really don't know the

18 answer.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Tanic, I'm asking you if you stand on that road and you

20 face the Dom Kultur, and you want to go to Mrs. Vidovic's house, do you

21 turn right or do you turn left? That's a very simple question.

22 A. I don't know. I can't answer on the basis of this. I really

23 don't know. I don't know Orahovac very well. I know somehow from the

24 by-road you get close to the school, so I went from this road that passes

25 the school to the main road. Now, which side that is, I don't know. I

Page 10406

1 simply don't know anything on the basis of this sketch. All I can say is

2 that I reached the main road, and her house is one kilometre 200 metres.

3 Somebody measured it, I think. That is the distance, about a kilometre

4 and a half from the school to her house. And I can't tell you now which --

5 where I was standing. You know where the road is. It's still there. I

6 simply can't give you a precise answer. I don't know. I can't orientate

7 myself. I can't show an arrow saying that I went this way or that way. I

8 may make a mistake. So I don't know. So I did go to the main road.

9 Q. I will leave this, Mr. Tanic, and I will simply ask, in the corner

10 of this document, simply to put your initials and today's date, the 24th

11 of April.

12 Thank you, and I don't think -- madam usher, we can save this

13 document as it is, and I would ask the document be introduced in evidence

14 at the end. We can save, and I'll move on to my next question.

15 Mr. Tanic, during your testimony, and I'm not referring you to any

16 statement or interview, or your testimony, but I'm just saying that you

17 made reference to stories that you heard and rumours that you heard. I

18 would simply ask you: Would you agree with me that in that specific

19 period, there were numerous stories and rumours flying around in the area?

20 Would that be a fair statement?

21 A. There were, yes, probably there were various stories. And I

22 mentioned only one here yesterday.

23 Q. Okay. My next question has to do with Mr. Cedo Jovic. You

24 mentioned, in response to one of my questions yesterday, that he was there

25 on the road with you. Can you confirm that Mr. Jovic --

Page 10407

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. His task there was to protect those who were detained in the gym;

3 is that correct?

4 A. I don't really know. We were on the road. Now, what he was

5 doing, I don't know. I think I said earlier on, too, that we were on the

6 road to prevent any other people from going inside, civilians and women.

7 Q. Thank you. I have one last question for you, Mr. Tanic. Again, I

8 will ask you to take the document which was handed to you. I don't know

9 if you still have this document before you, and to switch -- to go to the

10 last page of this document.

11 At the bottom of the page in your language, it says "14 of 155".

12 Do you see the text that is in the box? I would like you to read this

13 text for yourself, and I will read the English version. For the sake of

14 the interpreters, this is page 99 of the document in e-court.

15 What you said then is the following: "I don't want to -- to

16 comment any names of any politicians, but it is a known fact that

17 politicians did not do anything to stop this. I mean, civilian

18 authorities in general. All those civilian authorities were aware of what

19 was going, like I was. You know, they did not stop -- they did not do

20 anything to stop it."

21 Do you stand by this comment today?

22 A. I do.

23 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Mr. Tanic. I have no further

24 questions. Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. So let's go through the

Page 10408

1 list once more. The Beara team?

2 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, we have no questions of this witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Meek. The Borovcanin? Do you

4 confirm that have you no questions? Mr. Stojanovic?

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we do confirm, Your Honour,

6 we have no questions for this witness.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Faveau, for Miletic, you stated yesterday that

8 you wouldn't have. Do you confirm?

9 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse or Mr. Krgovic?

11 MR. JOSSE: No change.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Haynes.

13 MR. HAYNES: Just a few.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

16 Q. Mr. Tanic, you'll be glad to hear your period of giving evidence

17 is almost over. I've just got a few questions for you, and I appear for

18 Vinko Pandurevic who was the commander of the Zvornik Brigade in 1995.

19 Do you understand the phrase "conscientious objector"?

20 A. I don't.

21 Q. In 1992, when mobilisation took place in Zvornik, you were

22 philosophically opposed to fighting, weren't you?

23 A. Yes, I was, and I still am.

24 Q. And because of that, you asked whether you could serve in the

25 military in a non-combat capacity?

Page 10409

1 A. I didn't ask. I couldn't ask. This was due to circumstances that

2 the events took such a turn, but I see that you're heading towards asking

3 me how I had a rifle. I said in my statement, I pointed out, because

4 somebody from the rear came and said the prisoners are escaping, and that

5 was the only reason. And I believed it, and that's what I did. I didn't

6 go there with a rifle to do I don't know what. I -- that is how I spent

7 the whole war. And conscientious objector is an expression that I'm not

8 familiar with, but I realise now where you're going.

9 Q. Yes. That wasn't where I was going. I was going to suggest to

10 you that nobody gave you any difficulties in providing you with a

11 non-combat role throughout the three years of the war, did they?

12 A. [No verbal response]

13 Q. I think you may have to repeat your answer, because it hasn't

14 appeared on the transcript and the interpreters haven't picked it up. Did

15 you say nobody did give you any difficulty in providing you with a

16 non-combat role throughout the war?

17 A. Well, the whole war was a difficulty. Nobody had a permanent

18 position throughout the war. There were no guarantees, no rules.

19 Q. Your role was as a cashier in the financial services of the

20 Zvornik Brigade, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I think you may have already told us, but in case you haven't,

23 you had a small office on the ground floor of the Standard building?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You were not required to stay in the barracks overnight, and you

Page 10410

1 frequently went home on your bicycle, didn't you?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. Indeed, even during the course of the day, you --

4 A. It's not -- it's not that I asked for permission. I went AWOL.

5 There was a risk involved. I never asked anyone for permission to go

6 home. I just went.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, your direct superior as a cashier was the chief

8 of financial services, wasn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And for most of the war, that was a man named Drago Sakotic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And financial services was part of the organ for logistics, wasn't

13 it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that included not just finances, but medical services, the

16 quartermaster's stores and the like?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about Mijatovic Miladin. He was a

19 man who, at the start of the war, was a battalion commander in Baljkovica,

20 wasn't he?

21 A. I don't know where exactly he was a battalion commander.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you know that he was injured in 1992 and spent much

23 of the war in hospital and convalescing?

24 A. I know that he had been wounded.

25 Q. And like you, he was assigned at Standard, non-combat duties,

Page 10411

1 wasn't he?

2 A. I suppose so.

3 Q. But he was not your superior, was he?

4 A. No, he wasn't.

5 Q. And he had no authority to give you an order on the 14th of July,

6 did he?

7 A. No, and I didn't even understand it as an order.

8 Q. Thank you, that's very helpful. Was Drago Sakotic present at

9 Standard on the 14th of July, when you got in the truck and went to

10 Orahovac?

11 A. I don't know. I can't remember. At Standard, I don't think he

12 was there.

13 Q. There was another man from whom you sometimes took instructions.

14 His name was Petko Milosevic. Was he there?

15 A. I can't answer that question. I really don't know. In that

16 period, some changes occurred, a hand-over -- takeover between Drago and

17 Petko, but I don't know exactly at what time. I don't know who was there

18 then.

19 Q. Well, can I ask you this: Did you verify with any superior

20 officer that it was okay for you to do what Mijatovic Miladin suggested?

21 A. I did not. I've already stated that. I wasn't even thinking. He

22 just came, said in passing, "Take your rifle and go." It was not a

23 classic order. I heard people were running away. I took my rifle and

24 went, and the rest of the story you've already heard.

25 Q. Thank you. Just one last question: Did you ever report to Drago

Page 10412

1 Sakotic what had happened on the 14th of July?

2 A. I don't recall.

3 Q. Or any other of your superiors?

4 A. I don't know, I don't know.

5 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. Tanic. I have no more questions for

6 you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have

8 a re-examination?

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, we have no re-examination. Thank you, Mr.

10 President.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. Judge Kwon?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just apologise to Counsel

13 Stojanovic, because in those notes of mine, I had written something of a

14 personal nature, and there was a second paragraph saying that he asked the

15 same question as the Prosecutor. I'm sorry, I was in two different

16 positions, in two different stages, in the Prosecution stage and the

17 Defence stage. I want to ask, is it appropriate that -- and it's very

18 difficult to be on two chairs. I don't know. I mean -- and what does it

19 mean for the future? If I'm a Prosecution witness, can I also be a

20 Defence witness? That's what I wanted to ask, that's all.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm afraid we cannot provide you with an answer to

22 any of your questions, Mr. Tanic. Your testimony ends here, but of course

23 you're free to inquire with the Victims and Witnesses Unit.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we bid you goodbye, Mr. Tanic, may I take you

Page 10413

1 back, please, to the last two questions by Mr. Haynes. The first one

2 was: "Did you ever report to Drago Sakotic what had happened on the 14th

3 of July?" And --

4 A. I don't even know whether Drago Sakotic was coming to Standard at

5 the time at all. There was a transition of duties between chiefs.

6 Drago Sakotic sometimes came to the brigade to report and then went to the

7 municipality. Whether he was in that same status in that period, I'm not

8 sure. Whether Petko came to replace him after these events, I can't

9 remember now. I don't know whether in that period he was present at

10 Standard, whether he was visiting.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That confirms your previous answer, which was only

12 of three words: "I don't recall," as it appears on the transcript, was

13 correct. And then Mr. Haynes asked you his very last question: "Or, in

14 other words, did you ever report to any other of your superiors?" What

15 did you answer to that question? If I were to put it again to you: Did

16 you, by any chance, ever report the events of the 14th of July to any of

17 your superiors, what would your answer be?

18 A. I don't know whether I did. I talked with the chief of finance

19 about my work, the job I was doing. I didn't report to him about other

20 things. I would just inform him about the state of affairs in the

21 treasury, and I could have related the events to him, perhaps, but it was

22 not a traditional report.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So that brings your testimony to an end, Mr. Tanic,

24 which also means that you are free to go. Our staff will escort you out

25 of this courtroom and then give you all the assistance you require to

Page 10414

1 facilitate your return back home at the earliest. On behalf of the Trial

2 Chamber, my colleagues, I wish to thank you for having come to give

3 evidence, and I wish you a safe journey back home.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Exhibits, Mr. Vanderpuye.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: We have none, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Bourgon?

9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to have admitted

10 in evidence the sketch which was marked by the witness. The original

11 number was 3D94. I would also like to -- sorry, 3D84, 84. And I would

12 also like to have admitted the 3D84 itself. So the blank version as well

13 as the one that was marked. And I guess the number will be 3DIC --

14 THE REGISTRAR: Ninety-four.

15 MR. BOURGON: -- 94. Thank you, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I take it there are no other documents

17 to be tendered, so that concludes the evidence of Mr. Tanic. I didn't ask

18 whether you object to the two documents.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have no objection.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So the next witness was also a live, a viva voce

21 witness.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we have an update on how long this witness

23 will take? Mr. Haynes spoke to me briefly, but we do have another witness

24 ready.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We can try to update. I have the Popovic team, 20

Page 10415

1 minutes, Mr. Zivanovic.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Excuse me, I had not seen the exhibits. It was

3 the word -- I didn't hear it. Ten minutes, 10 minutes, excuse me.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: The Beara team, 45 minutes?

5 MR. MEEK: Possibly 30, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The Nikolic team, one hour and a half?

7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Up to an hour perhaps, Your Honour.

8 It depends on the examination-in-chief.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And the Miletic team, 10 minutes?

10 MS. FAVEAU: We have no questions for this witness, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?

12 MR. JOSSE: Can I check this is 137, please?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, correct.

14 MR. JOSSE: We have got nothing for 137.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And then Pandurevic Defence team?

16 MR SARAPA: Around 45 minutes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's where you were, but our rough guess is we

18 will use less of that time.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Jeremic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to

23 start giving evidence. Before you do so, you're required to make a solemn

24 declaration that in the course of your testimony you will be testifying

25 and speaking the truth. Please read out that following declaration aloud

Page 10416

1 and that will be your undertaking with us.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer is present in the courtroom and will

7 proceed with his examination-in-chief, after which we will have some

8 cross-examination from the Defence teams.

9 Mr. Thayer.

10 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you and

11 Your Honours.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

13 Examination by Mr. Thayer:

14 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I would just ask you if you would to keep

15 your voice up, if you could, and maybe move just a little bit closer to

16 the microphone so we don't miss anything you have to say. Okay?

17 Would you please state and spell your name for the record?

18 A. Nebojsa, N-e-b-o-j-s-a. Jeremic, my last name, J-e-r-e-m-i-c.

19 Q. And where were you born and raised, sir?

20 A. I was born in Zvornik, and I grew up there.

21 Q. And you are a lawyer by training; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what has your peace-time profession been?

24 A. I worked at the tax administration in Zvornik.

25 Q. And just approximately how long have you worked in that capacity,

Page 10417

1 sir?

2 A. You mean before the war?

3 Q. Before the war and after the war. Just in total, approximately

4 how long have you worked in that job?

5 A. Twenty-one years.

6 Q. Okay. Sir, I want to review with you very briefly your military

7 service history, and if you would just, when I'm done, correct me if

8 I've -- if I've misstated anything, please. You were mobilised in May of

9 1992, and you served as an infantryman. Then you were assigned to

10 register refugees in the Zvornik area?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. After that, you served as an infantryman again in December of

13 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And at some point in the spring of 1993, you transferred to a

16 particular unit of the Zvornik Brigade; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, the name of your

19 specialised unit or your particular unit?

20 A. I was transferred to the service for combatting crime with the

21 Zvornik Brigade, and that belonged to the military police company.

22 Q. Okay. And just briefly, can you describe how your transfer to

23 that unit came about?

24 A. A friend of mine, Goran Bogdanovic, had already transferred to

25 that unit before me, and since they needed another soldier, he suggested

Page 10418

1 that I transfer too.

2 Q. Okay. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who the commander of the

3 military police company was?

4 A. Miomir Jasikovac.

5 Q. And to whom did Mr. Jasikovac report?

6 A. The chief of the security, Drago Nikolic.

7 Q. And where was your unit based, sir?

8 A. At the barracks, Standard, in Zvornik.

9 Q. And did you have your own office there, sir, your unit, that is?

10 A. Yes, I did. My service had its own office.

11 Q. And what floor of the Standard barracks was that located on? Just

12 the floor.

13 A. Ground floor.

14 Q. I'd like you to take a few moments, please, and just describe the

15 function of your crime prevention unit for the Trial Chamber. First of

16 all, just what kinds of crimes did your unit deal with, for example?

17 A. My service dealt with criminal acts within the Zvornik Brigade. In

18 other words, our duty was -- in fact, we were responsible for the fighting

19 men of the Zvornik Brigade, any criminal acts that they may have committed

20 fell within our purview for purposes of investigation.

21 Q. And would this involve crimes of all levels of seriousness or only

22 of a particular level of seriousness, sir? And if it's easier just to

23 describe some examples of types of crimes you dealt with, then feel free

24 to do so as well.

25 A. Well, we dealt with all criminal acts committed by members of the

Page 10419

1 Zvornik Brigade, and I mean mobilised fighting men. That included

2 murders; desertion; infliction of wounds; self-infliction of wounds; or

3 self-injury; thefts; absence without official leave; similar things.

4 Q. Okay. And when you describe murders, sir, are you referring to

5 murders that occurred between a Zvornik member and another Zvornik member,

6 Zvornik Brigade member?

7 A. Yes, that's what I meant.

8 Q. And just generally speaking in 1995, how busy would you say your

9 unit was?

10 A. Well, the service was always busy in the past years before 1995

11 and in 1995, and the reason, in my opinion, is that it was a large brigade

12 and there was always work for us. Criminal acts were committed all the

13 time, or misdemeanors, so that we were very busy.

14 Q. You just referred to "us." Other than yourself and

15 Mr. Bogdanovic, who else was in your unit?

16 A. When I said "we," I meant the crime prevention service. That

17 included me, Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic.

18 Q. And what types of tasks would you personally perform in connection

19 with your duties, sir?

20 A. Most of the time, we were taking statements from soldiers. I'm

21 speaking of the soldiers of the Zvornik Brigade. We wrote orders in the

22 name of battalion commanders. Most often that concerned failure to show

23 up at the front line. We wrote orders in the name of the brigade

24 commander, but also criminal reports. We gathered all the necessary

25 documentation that must accompany criminal reports, such as statements by

Page 10420

1 perpetrators, statements by witnesses, and if the criminal act concerned

2 was more serious, such as a murder, then we worked in cooperation with the

3 civilian police, that is, with the scene-of-crime officers who would

4 photograph and sketch the crime scene while we took statements from

5 witnesses and the perpetrator. We would take a description of the body

6 from the hospital and we would seize the rifle because it was a rifle that

7 was most often used as a weapon, and we sent all the documentation to the

8 military prosecution's office, together with a criminal report.

9 Q. Okay. And, sir, in cases where charges would be brought, who

10 actually drafted those charges?

11 A. I would draft them, as did Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic.

12 Q. And, sir, you refer to orders that you would draft under the

13 signature of the brigade commander. Could you just give the Trial Chamber

14 a couple of examples of the types of orders that you would draft, or your

15 colleagues would draft?

16 A. We would write orders by the brigade commander relating to certain

17 more serious offences committed by members of the brigade. We wrote when

18 the punishment was up to 60 days in prison because, to the best our

19 knowledge, the brigade commander had the right to punish a soldier with a

20 prison term up to 60 days, military prison.

21 Q. And, sir, just to be clear, to your knowledge and understanding

22 did the brigade commander have that authority independent of any decision

23 by the military prosecutor's office?

24 A. I was not aware of that.

25 Q. Okay. I just want to make sure. When you say you weren't aware

Page 10421

1 of that, are you saying you don't know whether the brigade commander had

2 that authority or are you saying something else? And I can rephrase the

3 question slightly. Maybe that will help.

4 In your experience, would the brigade need to await approval from

5 the military prosecutor's office before issuing charges or a sentencing

6 order like the one you described, sentencing someone to 60 days in

7 military imprisonment?

8 A. As far as I know, the brigade did not have to wait for approval

9 from the military courts.

10 Q. Now, sir, who signed off on the criminal charges which you and

11 your colleagues wrote up?

12 A. The chief of security, Drago Nikolic.

13 Q. And did you or your two colleagues have the authority on your own

14 to initiate an investigation or draw up charges against a soldier?

15 A. No, we didn't. As far as I know, we didn't.

16 Q. And so who would direct you to do so, sir?

17 A. The chief of security, Drago Nikolic.

18 Q. And during the course of carrying out your various tasks, sir,

19 would you keep Drago Nikolic informed of your progress?

20 A. Yes, we would inform him. He was the chief, and we had to keep

21 him informed.

22 Q. Now, on a day-to-day basis, can you describe how you and your

23 colleagues would receive your orders?

24 A. Every morning, we would inform the chief of security of the

25 situation in the military detention, and then he would go, I think, to

Page 10422

1 talk to the brigade commander, where the reporting was taking place. And

2 after that, we would go to his office or he would call us up by phone and

3 hand down instructions as to what we should do.

4 Q. Now, sir, what was your understanding and experience in the

5 brigade as to any daily meetings that Drago Nikolic may have had with the

6 brigade commander, Mr. Pandurevic?

7 A. I said that I never attended those meetings, so I don't know how

8 these agreements and discussions took place and what they discussed. I

9 just know that after this reporting, the chief would give us instructions

10 as to what to do, that is, a briefing, actually, after the briefing.

11 Q. And you mentioned that on some occasions you would go to

12 Drago Nikolic's office to receive your orders. On any occasion, would you

13 see Mr. Jasikovac there?

14 A. Yes, I would.

15 Q. And on those occasions in the morning, what was Mr. Jasikovac

16 doing in Mr. Nikolic's office?

17 A. He was -- would also come to receive instructions for his work.

18 Q. Now, sir, in Drago Nikolic's absence, who gave you and your

19 colleagues orders?

20 A. His deputy, Milorad Trbic.

21 Q. Now, sir, I want to focus your attention in a different area for

22 the next few questions. I want to turn your attention to the time

23 immediately following the fall of the Srebrenica enclave. No doubt you

24 recall that period of time.

25 Can you tell the Trial Chamber where you were spending your days

Page 10423

1 and nights during that period of time?

2 A. I spent my days and nights in the barracks in Standard. There was

3 an alert situation, and we were all down there.

4 Q. And do you recall, sir, at some point after the fall of

5 Srebrenica, seeing some buses while you were at the Standard base?

6 A. Yes, I did see -- see them.

7 Q. And can you please --

8 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated]

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Sorry to interrupt you, but I noted the witness

11 mentioned Mr. Trbic as his -- deputy to Mr. Nikolic. Can I ask the

12 witness what Mr. Trbic's rank was at the time?


14 Q. Sir, did you understand His Honour's question?

15 A. I did understand the question. He was an officer, but I don't

16 know what his rank was. I don't remember.

17 Q. Back to the buses, sir. Can you please describe for the

18 Trial Chamber what you saw when you saw these buses?

19 A. I saw buses passing by the barracks, that Muslim prisoners were in

20 them, and I saw our guards standing in the buses. I don't know whether

21 they were guards of the Zvornik Brigade. In fact, I think they were not.

22 Q. And were you able to observe the position of any of these

23 prisoners, sir?

24 A. I did observe it. They had their heads bowed and they held their

25 hands above their heads.

Page 10424

1 Q. And when you say they were above their heads, sir, what do you

2 mean? How were their hands?

3 A. What I meant, like this, behind their necks. [Indicates]

4 Q. Indicating that their fingers were interlocked behind their --

5 behind their heads?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Can you recall what direction the buses were coming from and what

8 direction they were headed towards as you sit here today, sir?

9 A. I do recall. They were coming from the direction of Zvornik or

10 rather further away from Bratunac and they were moving --


12 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry but my computer has just crashed.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, all right. Sorry. I saw that there was some

14 disturbance but I saw Mr. Ostojic looking this way and I tried to follow

15 you, Mr. Ostojic. So you have misdirected the Trial Chamber.

16 Yeah, I think we need to wait until this is sorted out. As soon

17 as it is okay please, let us know. Unless you all agree to have the break

18 now rather than in 15 minutes' time. We could do that as well.

19 Okay. Let's have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Is everything okay now?

23 THE REPORTER: I hope so.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, and thank you for alerting us in

25 a timely fashion. So we go back to your last recorded question, please,

Page 10425

1 line 19 on page 26. And then the witness will start his answer again or

2 repeat his answer which never made it to the transcript.

3 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just to make sure we're on the same

4 page literally, that is the question regarding indicating their fingers

5 interlocked behind their heads or we're down to where I see the direction

6 of the buses question?


8 MR. THAYER: Okay. That's at line 23 from my transcript. I'll ask

9 the same question and we'll start from there.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't tell me what my line -- mine is line

11 19: "Can you recall what direction the buses were coming from and what

12 direction they were headed to as you sit here today, sir?" And you had

13 started giving your answer when we had a minor calamity.


15 Q. Sir, if you would just describe for the Court, if you can recall,

16 which direction the buses were coming from and in which direction they

17 were headed.

18 A. Yes, I do recall. The buses were coming from the direction of

19 Zvornik or further away from Bratunac, and they were moving towards

20 Bijeljina because the Zvornik-Bijeljina road passes by the barracks.

21 Q. And where were you, sir, when you saw these buses?

22 A. I was in the barracks compound, the Standard barracks.

23 Q. And did you see these buses from more than one location at the

24 Standard barracks?

25 A. I saw them from within the compound. I can't tell you exactly

Page 10426

1 where I was standing. I was in the compound, and I saw those buses

2 passing by.

3 Q. Okay. At some time after this day when you saw those buses, did

4 you begin to hear rumours at the brigade? And if so, can you tell the

5 Trial Chamber what those rumours were that you heard?

6 A. After that, I don't know exactly how many days later, I can't give

7 you a date as to when, but I heard that there were executions of Muslims

8 in Orahovac and Pilica. Those were the rumours that were going round in

9 the brigade or, rather, at Standard I heard this from the soldiers. No

10 one said anything officially, but many of them were talking about it.

11 Q. Now, I'm not asking you for any particular dates or times, sir,

12 but during these days following the fall of Srebrenica, did you see

13 Drago Nikolic in and around the Standard barracks?

14 A. Yes, I did see him in the barracks.

15 Q. And how about Mr. Trbic, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Mr. Jasikovac?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. And do you have any specific knowledge as to where they were going

20 on those occasions when you saw them in and out of the barracks?

21 A. I had no knowledge as to where they were going.

22 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to turn your attention to a different topic. I

23 want to ask you some questions about some charges which were brought

24 against a father and son in which your unit had some involvement.

25 Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you first became aware of any

Page 10427

1 allegations against this father and son?

2 A. I didn't quite understand your question.

3 Q. Okay. How did you first come to -- I see you nodding your head.

4 Can you answer the question, sir?

5 A. Yes, I can, I think I can answer the question. At a certain point

6 in time, two Serb combatants were brought to the office. I think it was

7 Djokic Nesko and his son, I don't know his name, and then Drago Nikolic

8 came, the chief in the brigade, and he said that these were our fighters

9 who had assisted the enemy and that criminal charges should be filed

10 against them and an order should be drafted for the brigade commander for

11 military imprisonment of 60 days.

12 Q. Now, were you present, sir, when Drago Nikolic made this

13 statement?

14 A. Yes, I was present.

15 Q. And was he, in fact, addressing you, sir?

16 A. I think he was addressing me.

17 Q. You indicated that one of your typical duties was to interview

18 witnesses and take statements. Did you actually meet the father and son?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Who did you meet first, sir, and where?

21 A. In the office in which I worked, I met the younger Djokic, that

22 is, the son.

23 Q. And can you describe what happened in that meeting, sir?

24 A. I remember that the Djokic Jr., that is, the son, he wouldn't

25 admit why he had been brought in, and then the chief, Drago Nikolic,

Page 10428

1 slapped him once, and he told the whole story.

2 Q. And after he was slapped, what did he say happened, sir, that is,

3 the Jokic son.

4 A. He said that he and his father, Nesko, had tried to help four

5 Muslim men to cross our lines and reach the other side, and they wanted to

6 help them to do this; that they gave them food and clothing, and that

7 their intention was to bring them to our positions and then for them to

8 cross the lines on their own. I'm talking about the confrontation line.

9 Q. Sir, was the father then brought in to your office?

10 A. Yes, he was.

11 Q. And do you recall whether Drago Nikolic was still in your office

12 when the father was brought in?

13 A. Yes. As the father was in front of the office, which is nearby,

14 he wasn't at any distance, he was standing in front of the door.

15 Q. Sir, did you complete the answer to your question? I'm sorry, I

16 couldn't tell whether you were done or not.

17 A. Yes, yes, I did.

18 Q. Okay. So the father was brought in to your office. Did

19 Drago Nikolic, to the best of your recollection, stay in your office for

20 the meeting with the father?

21 A. I think he didn't stay long in the office after the son had made

22 his admissions. He left. I don't think he stayed in the office for long.

23 Q. And do you recall whether the son said anything to the father?

24 A. As far as I can remember, he said, "Daddy, I have admitted

25 everything. They know everything. Why don't you tell them, too, what

Page 10429

1 happened?"

2 Q. And were statements eventually taken from the father and son, sir?

3 And if so, do you recall who took them?

4 A. Yes, statements were taken from Nesko Djokic and his son

5 concerning the circumstances that I have described a moment ago, and they

6 were taken by my colleague, Goran Bogdanovic.

7 Q. Sir, do you recall the name of the village this father and son

8 were from and where these events took place?

9 A. Yes, I do. It's a place near Zvornik called Lokanj.

10 MR. THAYER: If we may have 65 ter number 393 displayed on

11 e-court, and I'll be referring to page 1 of the English translation and

12 page 1 of the original B/C/S document for the time being.

13 Q. Sir, do you see a document in front of you on your computer

14 screen?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you recognise what that document is?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. What is it, sir?

19 A. That's the statement of Nesko Djokic concerning what I just

20 explained.

21 MR. THAYER: And if we could have page 2 of the English and page 3

22 of the B/C/S document shown, please. Perfect, thank you.

23 Q. Sir, do you have an image on your screen?

24 A. Yes, I see it. It's okay.

25 Q. Do you see the signature at the bottom right of the document?

Page 10430

1 A. Yes, I see it.

2 Q. And whose signature is that?

3 A. My colleague's, Goran Bogdanovic's.

4 Q. In the penalty of the fact that his name is typewritten there, do

5 you recognise that handwriting as that of your colleague,

6 Goran Bogdanovic?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Now -- and we're done with this document for the time being. Thank

9 you.

10 Did you also interview the Muslim prisoners, sir?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. I think you mentioned that there were four altogether. How many

13 did you personally interview?

14 A. Three, I took the statements of three of them.

15 Q. And do you remember who interviewed the fourth?

16 A. My colleague, Cedo Jovic.

17 Q. Would you please describe for the Trial Chamber the appearance --

18 MR. THAYER: I'll move on and ask the question again,

19 Mr. President.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not receiving interpretation in English.

21 Yes, but I have had the privilege what I stated in English translated into

22 Serbo-Croat again. Are you receiving interpretation in English? No. So

23 we have this problem which needs to be solved.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Are you on the English channel now?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We have always been on the English channel. So

Page 10431

1 I think we can proceed. Okay.


3 Q. Sir, we're just having some technical difficulties with the

4 translation channeling.

5 Would you please describe how these four Muslim prisoners appeared

6 when you saw them?

7 A. First of all, they looked frightened. They were thin. Their

8 clothes were in shreds. That's it.

9 MR. THAYER: If we may have 65 ter number 392 displayed on

10 e-court, please, page 1 of the English and the B/C/S, please.

11 Q. Do you see that document in front of you, sir?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And what is it?

14 A. That's the statement that we took from those Muslim prisoners.

15 This is the statement of Almir Halilovic.

16 Q. And if you can take a look at the first line just above where it

17 says "Statement," just for the record, can you indicate the village and

18 opstina that's indicated for this witness?

19 A. Shall I say the name?

20 Q. If you would, please, sir, just read it.

21 A. Almir Halilovic, son of Suljo and Dika, born on the 25th of

22 August, 1980, in Bajramovici village, Srebrenica municipality.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. If we could have page 3 of the B/C/S shown and

24 page 2 of the English, and if we could go to the bottom. Thank you.

25 Sir, do you see this document, this new page in front of you?

Page 10432

1 A. Yes, I see it.

2 Q. And is that your signature on the lower right corner there?

3 A. It's my signature.

4 Q. If we may have 65 ter 389 displayed as well. Do you recognise

5 what this is, sir?

6 A. I know.

7 Q. And what is it, please?

8 A. It's a statement by a Muslim prisoner.

9 Q. And would you just read into the record the name of the prisoner

10 and his biographical information that's indicated in that first sentence?

11 Just read that in briefly, if you would.

12 A. Sakib Kiviric, son of Salko and mother, Hadzira, born on the 24th

13 of June, 1964, in Jagodnja, Bratunac municipality.

14 Q. And if we could have page 3 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the English

15 displayed, please. And again, sir, just turn your attention to the lower

16 right-hand corner. Is that your signature there?

17 A. Yes, it's my signature.

18 Q. May we have 65 ter 390, please? Looking at the first page of the

19 document, is this also a statement of one of the Muslim prisoners that you

20 took, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And, again, would you just briefly read the biographical

23 information into the record?

24 A. Emin Mustafic, son of Rifet and mother Rukija, born on the 7th of

25 October 1969, in Drinjaca, Zvornik municipality.

Page 10433

1 Q. And if we could see page 3 of the B/C/S, please, and page 2 of the

2 English. Again, sir, do you recognise your signature in the lower

3 right-hand corner of this statement?

4 A. I recognise it.

5 Q. Lastly, sir, I want to show you 65 ter 391. Do you recognise this

6 as the statement of the fourth Muslim prisoner?

7 A. I recognise it.

8 Q. And if you would just read the -- that biographical information,

9 please.

10 A. Fuad Djozic, born to father Senusija and mother Rukija, on the 2nd

11 of May, 1965, in Zegojno, Srebrenica municipality.

12 Q. And if we may have the third page of the B/C/S and the second page

13 of the English, please. Do you see who has signed the page at the bottom

14 right-hand corner here, sir?

15 A. I see the signature and who it belongs to.

16 Q. And as you sit here, can you tell the Trial Chamber whether or not

17 you were familiar with that individual's handwriting, and if you would

18 please just state the name of the person whose signature is there?

19 A. You can -- the statement was taken by Cedo Jovic, and he signed. I

20 cannot say with absolute certainty that it's his signature, but I think it

21 is.

22 Q. Okay. Now, was there any sort of identification procedure

23 undertaken during your investigation concerning these four prisoners who

24 were aided by the father and son?

25 A. Yes, it existed.

Page 10434

1 Q. May we have 65 ter 394 displayed on e-court, please?

2 Sir, what is this document before you on your computer?

3 A. It's a record that was made concerning the identification made of

4 father and son, Djokic, by the Muslims.

5 Q. And it indicates that there were three persons present. Who does

6 it indicate were present during identification?

7 A. Second Lieutenant Drago Nikolic, chief of security;

8 Goran Bogdanovic, chief of service for the crime prevention; and another

9 member of the crime prevention service, Goran Bogdanovic.

10 Q. Okay. You just -- I'm looking at your answer here, and you've

11 indicated that Drago Nikolic, chief of security, was present,

12 Goran Bogdanovic, chief of security for the -- chief of service for the

13 crime prevention, and another member of the crime prevention service who

14 you again identified as Goran Bogdanovic. Would you just please take a

15 look at the document again and I ask you whether that's accurate or

16 whether --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake, it's Nebojsa Jeremic, the

18 third name.

19 MR. THAYER: Don't worry about the question. Don't worry about

20 answering the question, you've answered it already.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, interpreter, and thank you, Mr. Thayer.

22 MR. THAYER: May we see page 3 of the document in B/C/S, which is

23 page 2 of the English.

24 Q. Sir, do you see in the lower right corner the signature, and can

25 you tell us who that is?

Page 10435

1 A. I see it. It's Goran Bogdanovic's signature.

2 Q. And there appears also to be a stamp on top of that signature. Do

3 you recognise that stamp, sir?

4 A. I recognise the stamp of our brigade.

5 MR. THAYER: And I apologise for this. If we could go back to

6 page 1 of each document in B/C/S and English. I just wanted to ask you

7 one question about one line.

8 Q. Sir, I would direct your attention to the portion of the document

9 that starts immediately after the number "3" where your name is listed.

10 If you could just read that first line, please.

11 A. "Following operative information that there is reason to believe

12 that Djokic Nesko and his son, Slobodan, extended assistance to the

13 enemy." Their identification, followed by four enemy soldiers who had

14 been arrested.

15 Q. Okay. And, sir, I just asked that question because I think the

16 English translation, for those of us who are following along, may be

17 incorrect as translated, and I just wanted to verify what was in the B/C/S

18 original for the record.

19 May we have 65 ter 385 on e-court, please. Do you see the

20 document in front of you, sir?

21 A. I see it.

22 Q. And can you tell the Court what, if anything, this document

23 orders? [Realtime transcript did not include answer symbol]

24 A. This is a decision for detention in the duration of three days for

25 Nesko Djokic and his son, Slobodan.

Page 10436

1 Q. And if we may turn to page 3 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the

2 English, please. Do you recognise the handwriting on the signature there,

3 sir, in the lower right-hand corner? Sorry, you need to speak audibly

4 into the record. I see you're nodding your head. Are you receiving

5 interpretation, sir?

6 A. Yes, yes, I hear perfectly well.

7 Q. Okay. Do you recognise the handwriting at the signature?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. And whose handwriting is that, sir?

10 A. It's the signature of the chief of security, Drago Nikolic.

11 Q. And, again, do you see a stamp -- do you recognise that stamp

12 that's there?

13 A. I recognise the stamp and the military PO box.

14 Q. Sir, you had some comments about this document for me. Would you

15 care to share them with the Trial Chamber?

16 A. What I said was that this order for military detention was not

17 written by me in this way and that I cannot identify this because we used

18 a different format and a different style in writing within our service in

19 relation to orders for detention in the duration of three days.

20 Q. Okay. Well, based on your recollection of these events and your

21 participation in this investigation, is the document factually correct?

22 A. Yes, the disposition seems to be accurate.

23 Q. And do you have any reason to doubt its authenticity, sir?

24 A. I do not doubt it.

25 Q. The last document I want to show you, sir, is 65 ter number 386.

Page 10437

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek.

2 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, no objection, but page 12, line 9, I

3 think the Prosecutor asked a question and then there was an answer, but

4 the answer follows right with the question, so just for the transcript.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, since previously I noticed that the lines and

6 page do not -- at least what I have do not correspond with Mr. Thayer's,

7 could you read out to me, please, the question, yes, so that I point out

8 immediately --

9 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, on my screen the question was: "And can

10 you tell the Court what, if anything, this document orders?" And then

11 following that is: "This is a decision for detention in the duration of

12 three days for Nesko Djokic and his son, Slobodan." I believe that was

13 the answer.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So we're talking of lines 8 to 10 on page

15 12, at least on what we have here, and these need to be separated, line 8

16 and the first word on line 9 stay where they are, and the rest from "this

17 is a decision" right up to "his son, Slobodan," the next line, will be

18 marked as being the answer given by the witness to the previous question.

19 Thank you.

20 Thank you, Mr. Meek.

21 MR. THAYER: May I proceed, Mr. President?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sure.

23 MR. THAYER: I thank my learned colleague for that intervention.

24 Q. And again, sir, we're just having some technical difficulties,

25 nothing for you to be concerned about.

Page 10438

1 Do you see the document in front of you, a new document on your

2 screen, sir?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And what is this, sir?

5 A. It's a criminal report to the military prosecutor's office in

6 Bijeljina.

7 Q. If we may have page 3 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the English.

8 Again, do you recognise the handwriting of the signature here, sir?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. And whose is it, sir?

11 A. It is the signature of the chief of security, Drago Nikolic.

12 Q. And, again, there's a stamp for the brigade; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. And this is a report concerning the charges against the father and

15 son, is that correct, just to be clear?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. Now, sir, as you sit here today, do you know for certain whether

18 or not your unit actually wrote up charges against the father and son?

19 A. I do not remember. I did not write a criminal report, if that's

20 what you are referring to, and I don't recollect whether an order was

21 written by the brigade commander, signing 60 days of military imprisonment

22 which I was told should be written.

23 Q. And, sir, were you transferred to other duties in and around this

24 time or shortly thereafter?

25 A. On the 26th of July, I went to do work duty lasting three months.

Page 10439

1 Q. Now, just a few more questions for you, sir.

2 During this investigation, where were the four Muslims held?

3 A. I think they were in the military detention room, which was inside

4 the barracks, the Standard barracks.

5 Q. And on -- just what floor, sir?

6 A. It was on the ground floor.

7 Q. And do you have any idea where the father and son were held?

8 A. I really can't remember.

9 Q. And with respect to those four Muslim prisoners, sir, when was the

10 last time you recall seeing them?

11 A. I saw them for the last time in the office when they were making

12 their statements.

13 Q. Do you have any idea how long they were kept at Standard?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 Q. And do you have any information concerning what happened to them

16 ultimately?

17 A. I don't know that.

18 Q. Sir, you mentioned that at some point many people in the brigade

19 were talking about executions that had taken place at Orahovac and Pilica.

20 To your knowledge, did anyone in the brigade request the military

21 prosecutor's office to conduct an investigation into those executions that

22 were reported and rumoured?

23 A. I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. And, sir, to your knowledge were you or anyone in your unit, that

25 is, your crime prevention unit, ever instructed to conduct an

Page 10440

1 investigation into the executions at Orahovac and Pilica?

2 A. As far as I know, no.

3 Q. And if an investigation were to be ordered into such events, who

4 would have ordered you to do so, sir?

5 A. Drago Nikolic, the chief of security of the brigade. That is my

6 opinion, because he was the one who issued orders to us.

7 MR. THAYER: Sir, I thank you. I have no further questions for

8 you at this time.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 Mr. Thayer, as I stated earlier, I have got several different

11 teams who have expressed their intention to cross-examine the witness.

12 Mr. Zivanovic?

13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will not cross-examine this witness,

14 Your Honour, thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek.

16 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:

18 Q. Good afternoon, sir. How are you?

19 A. Good afternoon. Thank you, I'm fine.

20 Q. A few questions is all I have, and first off: You gave a

21 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on 12th of January, 2006, which

22 you reviewed and confirmed on the 22nd day of April, 2007, with only two

23 changes; is that correct, sir?

24 A. I don't know what you are referring to. Which two changes?

25 Q. Well, the first correction you said you had, or change or

Page 10441

1 correction, would be that you did not write report, rather you would

2 write, among other things, sentencing orders and criminal charges. Do you

3 recall that, sir?

4 A. Yes, I remember that. I'm saying that again. I didn't write

5 reports. I wrote orders and criminal charges, but not reports to anyone.

6 Q. And the only other correction that you made from your 12 January

7 2006 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor was you drew a new sketch;

8 is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Now, it is true, sir, that you would have had to have reviewed

11 thoroughly your 12 January 2006 statement in order to tell Mr. Thayer of

12 the two changes; isn't that true, sir?

13 A. Yes, I read the statement. I read the statement three days ago, I

14 think it was when I read the statement, but I don't really understand what

15 you are asking me.

16 Q. My only question was: You thoroughly reviewed that statement, now

17 you say, three days ago? That's all.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

19 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'm not sure there's a question on the

20 record, and that may be what's going on, that's all.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall I intervene?

22 MR. MEEK: The witness answered, "yes," I'm sorry. The witness

23 answered, "yes."

24 JUDGE AGIUS: "Yes, I read the statement," he said.

25 MR. MEEK:

Page 10442

1 Q. Sir, I just want to ask you a couple of questions about that

2 statement. First, every morning the commander of the military police, the

3 military company, the police company, the Zvornik Brigade, would give you

4 orders; is that correct?

5 A. It is not correct. Orders were given to me by Drago Nikolic, the

6 chief of security.

7 Q. Okay. And that was after a daily morning briefing; correct?

8 A. If you're meaning briefing -- if you mean briefing, I never

9 attended those briefings with the brigade commander, but I know that they

10 took place every morning, and after that in the service we would receive

11 instructions from Drago Nikolic.

12 Q. Yes, correct, and I didn't mean to insinuate that you personally

13 attended those meetings. Let's go a little further. You did indicate in

14 your statement that from time to time the military police company

15 commander might give you some orders, but you also received orders from

16 Drago Nikolic and his deputy, Trbic?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer?

18 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think it would be perhaps useful if

19 the witness could see the entire portion of the statement to which my

20 learned colleague is referring.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you agree to that, Mr. Meek?

22 MR. MEEK: I don't disagree, Judge. 3D107 is the English, and I

23 don't have the number for the B/C/S, of course.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: If someone could assist us.

25 MR. MEEK: So if we could put just paragraph 5, the first page, I

Page 10443

1 believe.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

3 MR. MEEK: First off --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, it's there.

5 MR. MEEK: I think we'll have to switch back to the page before

6 where paragraph 5 starts.

7 Q. Sir, could you just read paragraph 5 to yourself, and when you're

8 finished with the two lines on this page, we'll have it switched to the

9 next page.

10 A. We can pass to the next page now, please.

11 I've read the fifth paragraph.

12 Q. Thank you very much. And just to make it clear, Drago Nikolic

13 would attend meetings every morning with the brigade commander,

14 Vinko Pandurevic; correct?

15 A. I don't know whether it was virtually every morning, but it was

16 customary for such meetings to be held, or the briefing, as we soldiers

17 called it.

18 Q. And after these briefings, then Drago Nikolic would call either

19 Goran, Cedo or yourself, either to his office or by telephone and then

20 give you instructions on what to do; true?

21 A. True.

22 Q. Sometimes, however, Miomir Jasikovac, the commander of the

23 military police company, would also be in Drago Nikolic's office receiving

24 tasks; correct?

25 A. Yes, that is correct, but not sometimes; every day he would come.

Page 10444

1 Q. Thank you. And you go on to state that if Drago Nikolic was not

2 present, then his deputy, Trbic, would attend the commander's meeting and

3 then send the tasks on down to you; correct?

4 A. Yes, if Drago Nikolic was not there, then his deputy,

5 Milorad Trbic, would go to the briefings and he would pass on to us, to

6 us, that is correct.

7 Q. And, sir, these instructions would be exclusively related to

8 incidents involving members of the Zvornik Brigade; is that true?

9 A. Yes, it's true. There were no Muslims at the time.

10 Q. And very briefly, while we have this page on the screen in front

11 of you, could you just read to yourself paragraph 6?

12 A. I've read it.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you just explain, in the statement, you state

14 that "Pandurevic acted like a god in the brigade," could you just expand

15 on that? What do you mean by that?

16 A. I could. I will explain it. I don't know whether I actually said

17 like "god," it's a big word to use, but Commander Pandurevic was a real

18 commander. He was strict. I believe or, rather, my opinion is the other

19 officers respected him, but he was quite correct or fair-handed. But he

20 was a real soldier. It was different -- the discipline in the brigade was

21 different when the commander was there as opposed to when he was not.

22 Discipline was a bit more relaxed when the commander was absent. That is

23 why, I believe, that the other officers respected him.

24 Q. And, sir, can you tell me, where was the military prosecutor's

25 office located in 1995?

Page 10445

1 A. I think in Bijeljina.

2 Q. Can you recall today who was in charge of that office, sir?

3 A. I can't recall.

4 Q. Now, you also stated, and I just want to clarify this, that you

5 did not leave the Standard building during this period of time, as some of

6 your other colleagues had to; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And --

9 A. I'm sorry.

10 Q. Did you have something --

11 A. I didn't go home, either. There were no free days. We were on

12 the alert.

13 Q. And, sir, you stated in your statement to the Office of the

14 Prosecutor in 2006, that during that entire time you did not see any

15 officers at the brigade who were not attached to the brigade staff; isn't

16 that a fact, sir?

17 A. I didn't know other officers outside the Zvornik Brigade, so I

18 can't remember now whether I saw any officers I didn't know or not. But I

19 didn't know other officers except for those in the Zvornik Brigade; of

20 that I am sure.

21 Q. And, sir, you stated that in regards to the -- some prisoners that

22 were supposed to be transported to a prison camp, Batkovici, that you

23 never received any confirmation that they actually ended up there. Do you

24 recall that, sir?

25 A. I do, yes. That's what I said.

Page 10446

1 Q. Would you normally --

2 A. And I don't remember whether we received any feedback information

3 as to whether they arrived there, so I don't remember that.

4 Q. Well, my --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

6 MR. THAYER: If we could just have a little specificity as to

7 which group of prisoners we're talking about. We've heard testimony,

8 obviously, about one group, and I think the statement is referring to

9 other prisoners, and if we could just clarify that based on the statement

10 or his recollection as to which prisoners we're referring to here being

11 transferred or not.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek.

13 MR. MEEK: Yes.

14 Q. You indicated that there were some soldiers from Bijeljina Brigade

15 arriving in trucks or transport, between 80 and 100 Muslim prisoners. You

16 also stated that someone had mentioned to you that they were being

17 transported to the Batkovici prison. Do you recall that, sir?

18 A. Yes, I do recall that, in view of the fact that Batkovici is close

19 to Bijeljina, I assumed that these were soldiers from the Bijeljina

20 Brigade.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. But I didn't speak to them.

23 Q. Would it be normal that you, in your capacity as a legal officer,

24 would receive confirmation?

25 A. No, it wasn't customary.

Page 10447

1 MR. MEEK: Thank you. I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Meek.

3 Ms. Nikolic.

4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jeremic.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. I shall try and take up a position so you will see me.

9 A. Oh, there you are.

10 Q. First, let us correct a sentence in the transcript. I'll try and

11 deal with it through a question. It is page 3 for the second time on the

12 monitors, and 29 on the central monitor. Let me ask you this question.

13 You said that Mr. Drago Nikolic was the chief of the brigade?

14 A. I couldn't have said that. That must be a misinterpretation. I

15 know what the position of Drago Nikolic was.

16 Q. That's correct, and you told us what his position was.

17 A. He was chief of security of the Zvornik Brigade.

18 Q. Thank you. Today, you testified about the way in which

19 instructions were handed down to you for your work and how you received

20 your orders. From your testimony, I came to the conclusion that your

21 immediate superior within the service for combatting crime was

22 Drago Nikolic. Isn't that right?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. As regards combat issues in the sphere of military police and

25 military affairs, who was your superior?

Page 10448

1 A. The commander of the military police company, Miomir Jasikovac.

2 Q. Thank you. Let us look at a document now jointly. I don't know

3 how familiar you are with it, but you will agree with me that this

4 company, military police company, was organised in accordance with the

5 rules of service?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown

8 Prosecution Exhibit P00707, page 9 on the B/C/S and page 10 in the English

9 version.

10 Q. I would like to ask you to read two short paragraphs from that

11 document. Could you turn the text around and enlarge it a little? Could

12 you please read the heading: "Control and command of the military

13 police." And could you read out paragraph 12 and the first sentence of

14 paragraph 13?

15 A. Yes, just a moment. Let me find it. "The command of the military

16 unit and the institution within which, according to establishment, the

17 military police unit is a part or has been attached to it is under the

18 control and command of the military police. In the professional sense,

19 it's controlled and commanded by the commander of the security organ of

20 the military unit within whose composition the military police is attached

21 or belongs."

22 Q. Does this confirm, more or less, what you were saying today

23 according to the rules?

24 A. To tell you the truth, I see this for the first time.

25 Q. I believe you, but those were the rules that were in force at the

Page 10449

1 time in the armed forces. You may have not read them.

2 A. I hadn't read them.

3 Q. But in your daily life, when you were receiving instructions and

4 orders, you would receive them from the chief of security?

5 A. Yes, precisely so.

6 Q. Let us now comment on another part of your testimony. It has to

7 do with the days following the fall of Srebrenica, when you said that it

8 was chaotic and that you spent all your time in the barracks, and that you

9 even slept there.

10 Would you be kind enough to tell us, where was the dormitory or

11 the bedroom where you spent your nights in at the time?

12 A. It was on the top floor of the Standard barracks,.

13 Q. In the first building or the second building? The building in the

14 front where the officers were?

15 A. If you're referring to the main entrance, the dormitories were not

16 there. Upstairs was the commander's office, so the dormitory was in a

17 different part of the building. One could put it that way.

18 Q. Would it assist you if I were to show you a sketch that we

19 received from the Prosecution yesterday?

20 A. Yes, show it to me, please.

21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] So could the usher assist, please?

22 I apologise, Your Honours, that this is not in the e-court, but we

23 received it yesterday, together with other notes, a copy of the sketch

24 prepared by Mr. -- by the witness during meeting with Mr. Thayer.

25 Q. Mr. Jeremic, is this the sketch that you made?

Page 10450

1 A. It's something like the sketch. It's gone.

2 Q. [No interpretation] Could you please explain, and is this your

3 handwriting?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The answer was "yes."

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Jeremic, would you be kind enough to take the pointer and show

8 us roughly the path you followed when going to the dormitory?

9 A. Let us start from here [indicates], from the right-hand entrance,

10 which is the one I used most often. There were two. This is the

11 entrance, and then to the left is a corridor, the whole length of the

12 building, and at the end of that corridor was our office. Across the way

13 was the financial service, before that was the personnel service, and

14 before the end of the corridor there was another corridor to the right

15 which led to the kitchen and then left to the infirmary, and then another

16 corridor, a small one, to the right with the military detention room. And

17 then to the right were stairs leading up to the dormitory, where I slept.

18 Q. So you would pass by the kitchen every evening when you went to

19 sleep while in the barracks?

20 A. If I used this entrance, then every evening.

21 Q. Do you recall, did the kitchen have its working hours?

22 A. It did.

23 Q. When did it close?

24 A. I don't know exactly when, but I think dinner was served from 18

25 until 2000 hours.

Page 10451

1 Q. Thank you, Madam Usher, for your assistance.

2 So it is right to say that after 2000 hours, the kitchen or

3 canteen was locked?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you know Mr. Sreten Milosevic, assistant commander for

6 logistics?

7 A. I knew who Sreten Milosevic was, I knew him by sight.

8 Q. In view of the fact that in that period of time there were various

9 rumours about the events taking place in Karakaj, did you hear of a dinner

10 late in the evening on the 14th [Realtime transcript read in error "4th"]

11 of July in Sreten Milosevic's office?

12 A. No, I didn't hear of that, and I don't know where his office is.

13 Q. And do you know where the office of the duty officer is?

14 A. It was upstairs. I never went to that office.

15 Q. Is it to the right of the stairs, is it the first office to the

16 right once you climb up to the first floor?

17 A. I don't know exactly which office it was, but I know that it was

18 on the first floor. I don't remember anymore. I didn't go there often.

19 Q. Just a moment, please. A correction in the transcript, page 28,

20 line 4. It says "the 4th of July," but I think the date should be the

21 14th of July.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: What's even more important is whether -- but you

23 were using the same language, so that's not a problem. Okay, we'll have

24 the transcript amended in due course, and thank you for pointing that out

25 to us.

Page 10452

1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. You testified that the stories around the fall of Srebrenica,

3 about the events of the 14th and the 15th of July, started going round

4 amongst the soldiers several days later and that stories about killings in

5 Orahovac and Pilica went around like a rumour but as some sort of a

6 secret?

7 A. Precisely so.

8 Q. Were there rumours and were there things attributed to people,

9 individuals, that had happened and that hadn't happened?

10 A. Well, all kinds of things were being said. I cannot now remember

11 the details and the stories and who told me what and how they said it.

12 Maybe somebody added something, somebody subtracted something, maybe

13 somebody lied, maybe somebody had a false impression.

14 Q. I agree with you, Mr. Jeremic, it was a long time ago, but I am

15 asking about an overall picture about the communications regarding the

16 events in and around Orahovac.

17 After prisoners or, rather, the soldiers, member of the BiH Army

18 were taken prisoner, I think you examined them on the 23rd of July,

19 according to the documents that were shown to you.

20 A. I saw the date just now, but I couldn't remember the date myself.

21 Q. Could we please look again at the documents that my colleague

22 showed you, but very briefly. So could the witness be shown, please, a

23 document of the Prosecution 391, 391.

24 Could you please look at the heading of this statement. You read

25 out the particulars of Mr. Fuad Djozic, and that has been recorded in the

Page 10453

1 transcript. Is there any indication he was a member of any unit of the

2 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. It says here by "Occupation," "Driver and member of the 280th

4 Mountain Brigade."

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. You're welcome.

7 Q. Could the witness be shown document 390, please. P00390, please.

8 This is a statement by Emin Mustafic. You read out a part of it, so there

9 is no need to do it again, but do we have an indication that he was a

10 member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. Yes, it says here: "Member of the 280th Eastern Bosnian Light

12 Brigade."

13 Q. Thank you. Could the witness be shown now P00389? Again, could

14 you please look at that part of the preamble and tell us whether here

15 there's information that Sakib Kiviric was a member of any unit?

16 A. Yes, it says here he was a member of the 283rd Eastern Bosnian

17 Light Brigade.

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think, Your Honour,

19 that this would be a good moment for the break.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you very much, Ms. Nikolic. We'll have a

21 25-minute break starting from now.

22 Before we break, how much longer do you think you have? Don't

23 take my question to mean that I am pressurising you. I'm just trying

24 to --

25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best to finish by the end

Page 10454

1 of today's sitting, maybe earlier. About 45 minutes more. It's a bit

2 difficult for me to say exactly how much longer I will need.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes, do you still plan -- or Mr. Sarapa,

4 do you still plan to cross-examine this witness?

5 MR. HAYNES: Yes, and so that we're clear, this witness will not

6 be finished today.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So I think -- I put the question precisely to

8 help you plan whether you should keep your next witness here in the

9 building or send him to the hotel. It looks like that would be the best

10 way to go about it.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Mr. Jeremic, I shall try to complete my cross-examination as

18 quickly as possible.

19 I'd like us to go back to an incident which you testified about

20 today and at which you were present at, in your office, when Drago Nikolic

21 slapped the junior Djokic during the investigation. I wanted to ask you

22 whether you had ever, before that, seen Drago Nikolic slapping anyone.

23 A. No, I hadn't.

24 Q. In your statement, you mentioned that there was a lot of work for

25 the brigade and that stress was running very high in the brigade. Is it

Page 10455

1 possible that Mr. Nikolic was stressed out during those days?

2 A. Quite possibly so.

3 Q. Had you perhaps heard of the death of some close relatives of his

4 during that period of time?

5 A. Yes. It was in those days that eight military policemen were

6 killed. I think it was eight, and one of them was a close relative of

7 his. I think his name was Dusan Nikolic.

8 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you a few more questions.

9 To the best of your recollection, the evening -- or rather the day between

10 the 13th and the 14th, I understood that you were at the Standard in

11 Karakaj.

12 A. Please do not ask me about dates because I do not remember the

13 dates.

14 Q. Can I put it this way? That one evening, you were on duty at the

15 gate at the entrance to the Standard barracks in Karakaj?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you were on duty one day?

18 A. Yes, I was, I think for 24 hours during the day and night.

19 Q. Do you remember, during the evening hours, that officers from

20 other brigades came, or specifically do you remember Momir Nikolic coming,

21 the chief of security for the Bratunac Brigade?

22 A. I really do not know Momir Nikolic. I never saw him. I may have

23 seen him, but I don't know who that man is.

24 Q. Let me ask you two more questions linked to the statements about

25 which you testified today.

Page 10456

1 A. I am at your disposal.

2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 3D111, a

3 Defence exhibit, please.

4 Q. Is this a statement by Slobodan Djokic?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. Would you please look at page 3, please, of the statement. Do you

7 recognise the signature on this page, page 3?

8 A. Yes, I do. I've already said that.

9 Q. Whose signature is this?

10 A. Of my colleague, Goran Bogdanovic, on the right-hand side.

11 Q. So this means that on the 26th of July, Goran Bogdanovic took a

12 statement from Slobodan Djokic?

13 A. Can I see page 1 once again? But I think that's right.

14 Q. Could you please switch over to page 1 of this document?

15 A. Yes. On the 26th of July, 1995.

16 Q. You told us today that on the 26th of July, 1995, you left the

17 brigade and you were transferred to work duty in the municipality?

18 A. Yes. I was absent for three months.

19 Q. So you were not present on the 26th of July, 1995, when

20 Goran Bogdanovic took this statement from Slobodan Djokic?

21 A. I don't remember, but I probably was not there as I left on the

22 26th of July for work duty, and it went on until the 16th of October that

23 same year.

24 Q. After which you returned to the brigade again?

25 A. That is correct, and I took up the same duties.

Page 10457

1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will not

2 have any more questions for this witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Ms. Nikolic.

4 Borovcanin are not cross-examining; Miletic and Gvero, the same.

5 Mr. Sarapa for General Pandurevic.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

7 Q. Good evening, Mr. Jeremic.

8 A. Good evening.

9 Q. In view of the duties that you had in the brigade, could you

10 please tell us what military discipline is?

11 A. In my understanding, military discipline is a discipline that

12 applies to soldiers.

13 Q. Could we now show document 7D311. The next page, please. These

14 are regulations on military discipline, and the rule on military

15 discipline, Article 1, Article 1.

16 I would like to kindly ask you, and I point out that we have asked

17 for an English translation but it still hasn't been translated, so we only

18 have it in the B/C/S, I will read out Article 1 to see whether you have

19 the same understanding of military discipline as this:

20 "Military discipline is: To correctly, fully and timely perform

21 military and other duties in the Army of Yugoslavia in accordance with the

22 law, the rules of service, and other regulations and orders of competent

23 superiors; respect in military service and outside the service of law and

24 order and the rules of behaviour established by law, law and other

25 regulations; and respect for ethical norms of society."

Page 10458

1 Can we agree that this is the gist of military discipline

2 according to your own understanding?

3 A. Yes, I agree with you, but this is a document that I see for the

4 first time. I haven't had occasion to read or study it, but I agree with

5 you, with this Article 1.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

7 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we don't have an English translation

8 before us, and I just ask my learned colleague to identify the source of

9 this document, whether it's JNA, VRS, or something else, and a date.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I was going to ask Mr. Sarapa the same

11 question.

12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I will tell you. This is a document

13 called "Regulations on Military Discipline," dated 1995, and these were

14 applied in Republika Srpska, and they were published in the Military

15 Official Gazette number 40, dated the 30th of December, 1993, and number

16 20 --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed, were they any different from any

18 previous regulations or rules of service before --

19 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] No. These are rules on military

20 discipline that were applied in the army of Republika Srpska and that were

21 acted upon.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: My question, Mr. Sarapa, is this: Republika Srpska

23 came into being in 1992. Between that time and 1995, when these

24 regulations were promulgated, were there other regulations that dealt with

25 the notion or the concept of military discipline?

Page 10459

1 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] In Republika Srpska, there was

2 something else. There were the rules of service. But military discipline

3 is regulated by this document. That was applied also in the army of

4 Republika Srpska. The rules of service determines the methods, and this

5 document, the substance. So it was published on the 30th of

6 December, '93, and, in number 20, on the 21st of July, 1994. As soon as

7 we get a translation, we will provide copies.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much.

9 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Could you please help me clear up something? Do you agree with

11 the submission that the question of military discipline is not within the

12 terms of reference of the security organs but that the commanders are

13 responsible for military discipline?

14 A. I've already said that I first see this -- I see this for the

15 first time, and I really don't know who is responsible for military

16 discipline. I am not a professional soldier, and I really don't know why

17 you are asking me this.

18 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, and do you agree that a record of

19 disciplinary measures issued is the responsibility of the organ for moral,

20 religious and legal affairs?

21 A. I can answer that question. These disciplinary measures and

22 orders were recorded by the service for combatting crime and not the

23 service for religious and moral affairs. In our brigade, we had such a

24 service. In our brigade, we only had a section for morale, as far as I

25 know, and not for these other things that you mentioned.

Page 10460

1 Q. Could you now tell us something about disciplinary offences and

2 errors? Could you please tell us what are disciplinary errors?

3 A. In my view, those are light violations of military disciplines,

4 and disciplinary offences are more serious offences of military

5 discipline.

6 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness document

7 7D370, please. That's fine. Page 2 in the Serbian version and page 2

8 also of the English version. Can we show the English version as well at

9 the same time?

10 Q. Article 63, could you please read it? Disciplinary

11 responsibility, Article 63. Could you please read out what is a

12 disciplinary error and what is a disciplinary offence?

13 A. It says here a disciplinary error is a light violation of military

14 discipline, and disciplinary offence is a more serious violation of

15 military discipline.

16 Q. That is what you said a moment ago, isn't it?

17 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we now see document 7D356,

18 please. The English translation has been requested, but it still hasn't

19 been provided. This is a document entitled "Rules of Service of the Armed

20 Forces," dated 1985. It is a document or rules that were applied also in

21 the army of Republika Srpska. Could we show page 4, please. That's fine,

22 thank you. I'll just read out a part of Article 635.

23 Q. It says here: "A disciplinary error is a lighter and a

24 disciplinary offence a more serious violation of military discipline."

25 Is this identical to what we read out a moment ago, reading

Page 10461

1 through the regulations on military discipline?

2 A. Yes, it is identical.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. You're welcome.

5 Q. Which measures are issued in the case of disciplinary errors, the

6 lighter offence?

7 A. We used to order military detention. Not us, but we would write

8 the orders for military detention, but others were those who made the

9 decision.

10 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we now show document 7D370,

11 page 2? This is the text in Serbian, and in the English translation it is

12 page 3.

13 Q. Is it beyond contest that on the basis of Article 67 of the law on

14 the army of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, as published in the

15 Official Gazette of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that for

16 disciplinary errors, disciplinary measures are issued?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that among other disciplinary measures that may be issued, one

19 of them is military detention up to 20 days?

20 A. Yes, under sub-item 5.

21 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

22 document 7D356 again, please? We have asked for an English translation of

23 this document, too, and as soon as that translation is ready, copies will

24 be provided.

25 Could we please turn to chapter 12 of this document? This is page

Page 10462

1 261 in this document. In the document itself, that's page 261. That's

2 fine, thank you.

3 Q. Starting from paragraph 636, do you see that as one of the

4 disciplinary measures, under (A) it says "Disciplinary measures" and one

5 of such measure is "Military detention"; can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So we can agree that this is identical?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.

10 MR. THAYER: Again, Mr. President, we don't have the English

11 translation, and I just would ask my learned colleague to at least read

12 out what the chapter heading or what this is all about. I understand that

13 it may say or refer to disciplinary measures, but for what types of

14 offences? We've got no context to direct us as to what this is speaking

15 to.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa.

17 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] This is the document that we saw

18 earlier. Chapter 12, the Rules of Service of the Armed Forces, chapter

19 12, entitled "Implementation of Disciplinary Measures and Punishment:

20 General Provisions." Article 636 under (A).

21 Could we now see again document 7D307 [as interpreted], which is

22 the law on the Army. 7D370, page 3 in the Serbian text and page 3 in the

23 English text as well. Article 68 reads as follows: "For disciplinary

24 offences, the following disciplinary punishments can be handed down."

25 And under item 4, under such punishments, we see "Detention for

Page 10463

1 up to 20 days."

2 Q. Is that what it says there?

3 A. Yes, correct.

4 Q. Could we now see the Rules of Service for the Armed Forces, which

5 is document 7D356. Can we move forward, please? We need page 261,

6 please. Page 261 of the document. That's it. Article 636 of chapter 12,

7 entitled "Enforcement of Disciplinary Measures and Punishments: General

8 Provisions," Article 636 under (B) reads as follows: "Disciplinary

9 punishment, imprisonment."

10 Is that what it says there?

11 A. Yes, that's what it says.

12 Q. So we can conclude that punishments are handed down for

13 disciplinary offences and not -- and not measures. Can we now see document

14 7D --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

16 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, it just may be a question of the

17 transcript, but I'm not sure my learned colleague received an answer to

18 his last question, if in fact it was a question.

19 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that was the question. Now

20 we can see that the answer was not recorded. The question was: Can we

21 conclude, can we agree, that in case of disciplinary offences, punishments

22 are issued because they constitute a more serious violation of military

23 discipline?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, turning to the issue of jurisdiction in case of disciplinary

Page 10464

1 offences and errors, could we now see document 7D370, page 4 in the

2 Serbian text and page 5 in the English text. Article 78 in the law on the

3 army regulates jurisdiction and responsibility for resolving disciplinary

4 errors and procedure. It says here that:

5 "The following disciplinary measures: Warning, firm warning, and

6 extraordinary work in up to three shifts is something that may be issued

7 in relation to recruit soldiers, reserve soldiers and cadets. It may be

8 done by superior officers who are commanders of platoon or above."

9 And then it says there that platoon commander may issue a ban on

10 leaving the perimeter of the barracks for up to one day. Commander of

11 company may do that for up to two days, and also issue military detention

12 for up to two days. Commander of battalion can ban leaving the perimeter

13 of the barracks for up to four days and military detention for up to seven

14 days; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could we now scroll down so we can see Article 79? Yes, 79,

17 that's correct.

18 Commander of brigade and military officers of senior position are

19 entitled to issue all disciplinary measures provided for by this law; is

20 that correct as well?

21 A. Yes, it is. That's what it says there.

22 Q. Since we concluded earlier that military detention up to 20 days

23 is one of disciplinary measures, does this mean that a brigade commander

24 may mete out such a measure, military detention, for up to 20 days?

25 A. That's your conclusion.

Page 10465

1 Q. Let me remind you --

2 A. Listen, this is the first time that I see this document. I did

3 not have these copies of official gazette. I did not have rules of

4 service, and we didn't use any of this. I explained to you today what we

5 had used and how we had worked.

6 Q. Could we now see document -- the text of the law regulating these

7 issues, the issues that we are discussing. That's what I wanted to show.

8 Now I would like to turn to disciplinary offences. Could we see

9 document 7D370, page 5 in Serbian and page 6 in English. Article 86

10 regulates the jurisdiction and procedure for responsibility for

11 disciplinary offences. Article 86 reads: "Military disciplinary courts

12 have the jurisdiction for disciplinary offences."

13 Is this correct?

14 A. Yes, that's what it says there.

15 Q. Could we now see document 7D356. We have already seen it two or

16 three times, these are Rules of Service in the Armed Forces. Again, could

17 we see page 261 of this document. Yes, fine. Article 635, chapter

18 12, "Enforcement of Disciplinary Measures and Punishments: General

19 Provisions." Would you please look at Article 635, the last three lines

20 of it. It says there:

21 "Disciplinary errors are dealt with by competent officers in

22 accordance with the procedure specified."

23 And then it says that the military disciplinary court is competent

24 for disciplinary offences; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10466

1 Q. Is this identical to the provision we saw earlier in the text of

2 the law?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could we see document 7D370. Page 5, please, in Serbian, and page

5 7 in English.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please see the English

7 translation on the screen?

8 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] English translation is on page 7.

9 Could we see page 7 of the English text on the screen, please?

10 THE INTERPRETER: It's already on the English channel.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Sarapa.

12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we scroll up, please -- or

13 scroll down in order to see -- no, scroll up in order to see article 91.

14 Scroll down, please. We need Article 91. That's fine.

15 Q. When it comes to the composition of the military disciplinary

16 court, Article 91 provides: "Military disciplinary courts sit in chambers

17 of three judges, one of whom is the president of the chamber."

18 Could we now scroll up, please? Yes, thank you: "Military

19 disciplinary courts issue decisions in the form of judgements or

20 decisions -- They issue rulings in the form of judgements or decisions";

21 is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's what it says there, but I'm not a military judge. I

23 don't see the point of your questions.

24 Q. I will now put a question to you, and it will be clear to you.

25 So it says here that military disciplinary courts issue their

Page 10467

1 rulings in the form of judgements or decisions. Tell us, please, what was

2 the form of your rulings in the brigade when dealing with these issues?

3 A. In the form of an order.

4 Q. Regardless of which kind of violation of military discipline it

5 was, you always issued orders; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. But I have to explain something to you. These orders were written

9 by us pursuant to an order either of the commander of the battalion or

10 commander of the brigade or pursuant to the order of the company

11 commander. Earlier, you told me what kind of detention company commander

12 was able to mete out. We simply wrote down something that we were asked

13 to write down.

14 Q. Based on the documents that we have seen so far, does it seem that

15 a brigade commander can mete out military detention measure up to 20 days?

16 A. Yes, that's what it stands for from here, but do you really think

17 that I, on my own, wrote a ruling meting out a detention for up to 60

18 days? Can you please explain that to me?

19 Q. Who was responsible for acting in the case of criminal offences by

20 soldiers or officers?

21 A. It was the responsibility of the crime prevention service or,

22 rather, the chief of the security of the brigade, Drago Nikolic, who

23 signed those criminal charges.

24 Q. That was not my question. My question was: In the event of

25 criminal offences, who would make decisions on punishment if it wasn't a

Page 10468

1 violation of military discipline but rather a criminal offence? Was this

2 within the framework of the brigade or was it the purview of military

3 courts?

4 A. Within the framework of the brigade, no judgements were handed

5 down regarding criminal offences.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: At least allow a short pause between question and

7 answer, because I have noticed a little bit of restlessness these last few

8 minutes. Did you understand me, Witness?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So we could make the conclusion that the difference between action

14 within the framework of the brigade and action for military discipline in

15 relation to military courts, that the organs in the brigade deal with

16 military discipline and military courts, pass judgement and punishments

17 for criminal offences?

18 A. Yes, but in the brigade there was no disciplinary military court.

19 Q. But can we agree that in view of the fact that military courts are

20 responsible in the event of criminal offences, that within the framework

21 of the brigade no judgements were handed down for criminal offences?

22 A. I agree.

23 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we now show to the witness

24 document P385, please.

25 Q. This is a decision that you've already seen today, I think. It is

Page 10469

1 a decision dated the 25th of July, 1995, handing down imprisonment for the

2 Djokic father and son, and it is signed by the chief of security,

3 Drago Nikolic. The document has been translated into English, so could

4 that be shown on the screen.

5 Can we agree that this is a decision passed in accordance with the

6 law on criminal procedure, because that is what it says in the preamble?

7 A. That is what it says.

8 Q. Is it true that this is imprisonment and not military detention?

9 Detention but not military detention. It says here detention lasting

10 three days, but it doesn't say military detention, only detention.

11 A. The word "military" is not mentioned here.

12 Q. In view of the fact that this decision was handed down pursuant to

13 the law on criminal procedure, which regulates the actual process, would

14 you agree that this is not a sanction or kind of measure or punishment,

15 but a procedural measure?

16 A. Yes, I agree.

17 Q. Can we agree with the submission that this is detention handed

18 down because there was grounds to believe that the Djokic father and son

19 had committed a criminal act, which is within the purview of military

20 courts?

21 A. Yes, I agree. Now you have explained what the jurisdiction of

22 military courts are.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. Thank you, too.

25 Q. Could we agree with this statement, that the commander acts

Page 10470

1 exclusively according to the law on the army and the rules of service as a

2 military officer?

3 A. I told you that I'm not familiar with the rules of service, that I

4 saw them here for the first time, these pictures and these articles. So

5 how the commander acted, I -- that is my opinion. I --

6 Q. Very well. If you can't answer, never mind. I won't insist. We

7 can move on.

8 A. I cannot answer that question.

9 Q. I'm only asking you to tell us what you know. This decision

10 handing down detention is dated the 25th of July, 1995. As we have seen,

11 it was issued as a procedural measure on the grounds that it was suspected

12 that the perpetrators had committed a criminal offence, which is within

13 the jurisdiction of military courts.

14 On the next day, 26th of July, 1995, the chief of security,

15 Drago Nikolic, sends a report to the competent military prosecutor's

16 office in Bijeljina. Could we now show document 7D361, please. The

17 document is available in both languages. Could we show the English

18 version too, please.

19 We have already seen this document today, so you know what it's

20 about. It is a report in connection with cooperation with the enemy and

21 filed to the military prosecutor's office in Bijeljina.

22 A. Yes, I have seen it.

23 Q. Am I right in saying that the military prosecutor's office is in

24 Bijeljina and that it was also responsible for the territory of Zvornik?

25 A. As far as I can remember, it was.

Page 10471

1 Q. By its content and what is stated in this document, can we agree

2 that in -- to all intents and purposes, it is a criminal report?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the basis of suspicion that a criminal act had been committed,

5 a criminal complaint, therefore. Can we agree, then, that further

6 processing of this case, of the Djokic father and son and what they did,

7 is within the responsibility of the military prosecutor's office and the

8 military court and no longer within the purview of the Zvornik Brigade?

9 A. Yes, I agree with you.

10 Q. When there is suspicion of a criminal offence being committed,

11 there's no disciplinary proceedings within the framework of the brigade,

12 are there?

13 A. No.

14 Q. If procedures have been instituted within the framework of the

15 brigade, such proceedings are suspended when there is suspicion that a

16 criminal act has been committed and when the case is forwarded to the

17 responsible prosecutor's office, then it is suspended in the brigade?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mentioning the documents, you said that you did cooperate with the

20 military prosecutor's office?

21 A. We just passed on to them the criminal complaints, if that is

22 cooperation.

23 Q. That was my next question. Does that mean you spoke about

24 cooperation with the military prosecutor's office, that that meant that

25 you would forward to them the documents you had available to you on the

Page 10472

1 basis of which they might continue the proceedings?

2 A. We supplied them with the material we had available. What they

3 did with it afterwards, I don't know.

4 Q. That is not conducting an investigation within the framework of

5 the brigade for a criminal act, it is just supplying the documents to the

6 competent body.

7 A. I don't know which documents you're referring to.

8 Q. Any documents, any evidence that you may have in connection with

9 the suspected criminal act.

10 A. Yes, statement of witnesses, statement of the perpetrator. I've

11 already explained what we would send to the prosecutor's office.

12 Q. After sending these documents to the prosecutor's office, those

13 that you had available and that were at your disposal, you didn't act --

14 take any further action on the basis of those same documents?

15 A. That is right, we didn't do anything after that, and we weren't

16 responsible for doing that, either.

17 Q. You said today that the brigade did not have to wait for

18 permission to punish someone for a term of 60 days. However, if we're

19 talking about a criminal offence and the case is forwarded to the military

20 prosecutor's office, then within the bodies of the brigade you don't issue

21 a decision on punishment; is that right?

22 A. The brigade commander would decide about that. About orders,

23 those were decided upon by the brigade commander.

24 Q. Did you ever receive from the public prosecutor any permission to

25 punish anyone?

Page 10473

1 A. We never punished anyone, with the approval of the prosecutor nor

2 with the approval of any officer within the brigade. We just wrote out

3 orders, as we were told to do, and judgements and punishments were things

4 we didn't decide about.

5 Q. Thank you. In connection with the investigation, do you know

6 whether security organs in the brigade ever engaged in any investigations

7 without informing the brigade commander?

8 A. I don't know about that.

9 Q. You mentioned today the morning briefings that Drago Nikolic went

10 to, or in his absence Trbic; is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's what I said.

12 Q. After the briefing, you were assigned tasks, as you said?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can we agree that tasks were issued to you, but that they did not

15 convey the substance of the briefings they had with the commander?

16 A. Well, you see, they would give us assignments in concrete terms,

17 what had to do with the service I was working for.

18 Q. Can you please give me a concrete answer. When they came to see

19 you after their briefings with the commander, were you informed by them

20 about what they had discussed with the commander?

21 A. No, we were never informed about what they had discussed.

22 Q. Thank you. After statements were taken from the Djokic father and

23 son and the arrested Muslims, did Drago -- Drago Nikolic told you to write

24 out an order on punishment?

25 A. He told me to write it out before the statements were taken.

Page 10474

1 Q. Before the statements?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. [No interpretation]

4 A. I apologise. When we entered the office, he told us what was at

5 stake and that statements needed to be written, as well as an order by the

6 brigade commander for detention up to 60 days of military -- military

7 detention up to 60 days.

8 Q. Can we agree that it was only after statements were taken that

9 Drago Nikolic was informed in detail about what had happened?

10 A. I think that he knew even before the statements were taken and

11 before they reached the Standard barracks.

12 Q. But the criminal complaint to the military prosecutor came after

13 the statements were taken, and they are attached as an annex.

14 A. Yes. That's what I said, that he knew what it was about.

15 Q. I'll move on to another question.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you will do that tomorrow, Mr. Sarapa,

17 because we have arrived at 7.00.

18 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I don't

19 think I'll need more than five minutes, and then we won't have to keep the

20 witness. Five minutes on the outside.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Any re-examination, Mr. Thayer?

22 MR. THAYER: I have three brief questions, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I was expecting you to rise, Ms. Nikolic. You

24 need to put further questions?

25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I will have several questions. But

Page 10475

1 before we adjourn, I'd like us to correct some errors in the transcript.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which are these errors?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Page 29, line 10, the words "events

5 in and around Srebrenica," I think that we are actually talking about

6 Orahovac and not Srebrenica.

7 Page 24 of the same --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I have to stop you. I cannot follow you because --

9 how would I know which page 29 she is referring to, the previous one?

10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] It's difficult for me, too, as I'm

11 following the LiveNote on the monitor to the left, which twice starts with

12 the number 1. After every break, we would start with the number 1.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This is page 28, the first reference to the fall of

14 Srebrenica --

15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] 29.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 28, page 21. I think what I suggest, because

17 otherwise we'll be here for a long time and we don't want to keep anyone

18 beyond 7.00, if you could perhaps identify these and we can come --

19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I will. I will do that tomorrow.

20 Very well.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we can finish the testimony of this

22 witness today, so there is no point in extending the sitting. We'll meet

23 again tomorrow in the afternoon at 2.15. Thank you.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7:02 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of

Page 10476

1 April, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.