Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10558

1 Thursday, 26 April 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everybody. Madam Registrar, could

7 you call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case

9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All the accused are here. Defence teams

11 I notice the absence of Mr. Krgovic and that we had an explanation

12 yesterday from Mr. Josse. I notice also the absence of Mr. Bourgon who

13 yesterday explained to us that he will be arriving later on in the day.

14 Prosecution, I see Mr. McCloskey. We are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis

15 for the first part of this sitting. The reason is that Judge Stole is

16 still occupied in the other court case in which he is involved, Haradinaj

17 case. They haven't managed to finish on time so as soon as they finish

18 and he's had a decent break, he will join us. Okay.

19 Mr. Haynes, I understood yesterday that you had agreed with

20 Mr. Bourgon that you will start your cross-examination and then when you

21 finish and he is here, he will proceed and conclude his.

22 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, that's quite correct, yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Go ahead.

24 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.


Page 10559

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Galic.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. So that you understand, I have some questions for you that I think

5 will last about an hour or a little bit more, okay? And then Mr. Bourgon

6 will come back and finish asking you the questions he asked you yesterday.

7 You told us a little bit yesterday about your personal and

8 military background. Would I be right in assume that you have -- you were

9 born and raised and have lived your whole life in the same area of Bosnia?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you have a great deal of knowledge about how things developed

12 in 1992, both before and after the war commenced?

13 A. As much as I know about it. I don't know enough. But whatever I

14 know, I am willing to tell the Court.

15 Q. Well, I'm grateful for that. The village in which you lived,

16 Celopek, was that a Serbian village before the war?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But generally speaking, the municipal area of Zvornik was a mixed

19 area, both Serbian and Muslim, wasn't it, before the war?

20 A. Yes, it was mixed. Percentage-wise, 60 to 40 per cent, Muslims

21 and Serbs.

22 Q. And basically speaking, the ethnic division was village by

23 village, wasn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And after war began, each of the villages organised their own

Page 10560

1 defence; is that right?

2 A. At first, every village formed its own units on the territorial

3 principle for one village or group of villages, with a view to protecting

4 their families from the other side. That is what I know about how it was

5 at the beginning in 1992.

6 Q. And was that the same regardless of whether the village was a

7 Serbian village or a Muslim village, the Territorial Defence was organised

8 in the same way?

9 A. I know about the Serb territory, but I assume that that was how it

10 was on the other side as well.

11 Q. But of course, some of these villages that were next to one

12 another had different ethnic populations, so you would have Serbian

13 villages surrounded by Muslim villages, and vice versa, Muslim villages

14 surrounded by Serbian villages, wouldn't you?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. And so these defence systems developed in a way that made the map

17 look like the skin of a leopard; do you understand what I mean?

18 A. Could you explain that a little, please, what you mean the skin of

19 a leopard.

20 Q. Well, a leopard has skin which is substantially one colour but it

21 has spots of another colour so there were areas surrounded by opposing

22 forces?

23 A. When the territorial units were being formed for every village,

24 hamlet or group of villages, a certain boundary is established between the

25 Serb and Muslim sides, so that after a certain period of time, the line of

Page 10561

1 separation was sort of formed, and it was a line of defence facing the

2 Muslim forces, and I assume that that was what the opposing side did too.

3 If that is what you meant, that is my answer.

4 Q. Well, I'll move on. At the start of the war, you were a battalion

5 commander for your village, weren't you?

6 A. No, I wasn't the commander, but I was in the village.

7 Q. It had been from what you told us yesterday, 20 years since you'd

8 had any military experience in 1992; is that right?

9 A. A certain amount of experience, yes, in terms of organisation and

10 so on, but nothing else.

11 Q. Now, the other things that complicated, as it were, the situation

12 at the early stages of the war were the return of units of soldiers from

13 the Yugoslav army. Those were the professional soldiers who came to join

14 the forces in Bosnia, weren't they?

15 A. The return of forces from other territory partly took place across

16 the territory of Zvornik municipality. Now, which those units were and

17 what their formations were, I really can't remember. I don't have that

18 information, regarding those who passed through coming from other

19 territory. There was some returning forces, that is true.

20 Q. And there were also paramilitary units operating in the territory

21 of Zvornik, weren't there?

22 A. Yes, at the beginning there were some. What they were and how

23 long they stayed, I don't have detailed information, so I can't tell you

24 with precision which forces they were or what size they were, when they

25 were in our territory but I do know that there were some there.

Page 10562

1 Q. And they could properly be characterised as just unlawful gangs,

2 couldn't they? They were not under the command of any of the TOs or any

3 army units?

4 A. Those were men or groups of men who probably had certain aims and

5 objectives. I remember a group which came, I don't know exactly whether

6 it was from the area of Uzice or somewhere else. They were taken in but

7 on condition that they place themselves under the control and command of

8 the unit in that area. However, later on, after a day, it emerged that

9 they didn't do that and then the brigade commander reacted immediately and

10 I participated, together with Mr. Nikolic, in telling those men what the

11 order was: Either they would abide and respect all the orders of the

12 battalion commander to whose territory they would be sent or they should

13 immediately go back from where they had come.

14 They were not keen to talk to Mr. Nikolic and me. They wanted to

15 talk to the brigade commander, and they didn't trust us to such a degree

16 that they wouldn't even ride in the same vehicle with us. They came to

17 the brigade headquarters and when they were told that this wouldn't work

18 and that they couldn't behave as they wanted to, they were given a

19 deadline, I can't remember exactly how much, an hour or two, for them to

20 leave the territory, which they did. That is the group I'm familiar with,

21 and I was involved in the activities regarding whether they should stay or

22 leave, and I've just told you what happened.

23 Q. Thank you. Just to finish that off, the brigade commander you're

24 talking about that got rid of these paramilitaries from the territory, was

25 that Vinko Pandurevic?

Page 10563

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, prior to him becoming brigade commander --

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, I'm sorry, could we clear up the

4 "Nikolic" too?

5 MR. HAYNES: I'm very sorry.

6 Q. Yes. The Nikolic you referred to was who?

7 A. It was the chief for security of the Zvornik Brigade.

8 Q. Drago Nikolic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, prior to Vinko Pandurevic becoming the commander of the

11 Zvornik Brigade, there had been a large number of previous commanders,

12 hadn't there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you help us as to precisely how many?

15 A. I can't give you a precise figure but there were several.

16 Q. And what about at lower levels, at battalion level? Were

17 commanders of battalions frequently changing?

18 A. The battalion commanders, in the initial stage, and especially by

19 the end of 1992, changed frequently. This applied to both -- especially

20 to brigade commanders, whereas battalion commanders were mostly locals who

21 stayed in those positions until a proper military organisation of the

22 units was established. So regardless when various units were established,

23 the military relationships and hierarchy was not fully established even by

24 the end of 1992. And that is why it was very difficult to change those

25 people who were officers and ordinary soldiers, who were involved in the

Page 10564

1 battalions and the local communities in the territory of Zvornik

2 municipality.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Were there many professional soldiers in the

4 Zvornik Brigade after the end of 1992?

5 A. The Zvornik Brigade was one of the larger brigades in the area, in

6 terms of numerical strength, as it secured an about 40 kilometre long

7 front. The number, the effectives, changed, but if you're asking me for

8 the figures, I could give you a very rough figures, but not a precise

9 ones.

10 Q. I'd like a rough figure because of course you were the assistant

11 to the chief of staff in terms of personnel so you are the person best

12 placed to tell us how many professional soldiers there were as opposed to

13 how many people were mobilised.

14 A. Let me see. In that period, that is in 1992, I wasn't what you

15 said. I became that in 1994-1995, but I know that the brigade in that

16 period of time had between four and four and a half thousand men. Later

17 on the number increased, depending on the system, and the way in which the

18 territory was being defended. In the unit, at the beginning, there

19 weren't many professional soldiers, if you're referring to professional

20 commanders from the former JNA, they were very few in number. So that

21 everything depended on the local population, and as I said a moment ago,

22 whenever a new man came, it was very hard for him to take up a duty in the

23 units of any local community, in view of the fact that they -- there was a

24 lot of mistrust. They trusted more their own neighbours, those they knew,

25 than those who were coming from the outside, which was absurd.

Page 10565

1 Q. Thank you. Now, after Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic arrived, were

2 the -- was the brigade a better-organised unit?

3 A. With the arrival of Mr. Pandurevic to the position of brigade

4 commander, I wasn't there for quite some time because I was undergoing

5 lengthy treatment, but it is my view, and that of those associates, his

6 arrival meant putting the units into proper military order. This wasn't

7 easy to achieve but the military system of command and control was

8 initiated and established, and I claim that by the end of 1992, or rather

9 up to the end of 1992, there was hardly any proper control and command.

10 It was from the beginning of 1993 that the situation significantly

11 improved and units started to function along military lines.

12 Q. Thank you. And one of the things I want to put to you, you've

13 already answered this, I think, is that paramilitary units were removed

14 from the Zvornik area by Mr. Pandurevic, weren't they?

15 A. I said, and described, the previous event, and until

16 Mr. Pandurevic took over, there were several coming and going, but I'm not

17 familiar with the details, but I told you about the case I'm familiar

18 with. I don't know about others. Later on, I don't know that any

19 paramilitary formation came to the territory of Zvornik municipality or

20 within the Zvornik Brigade.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to move on and discuss the job you did

22 towards the latter stages of the war, that you've told us about, when you

23 were assistant to the Chief of Staff for personnel, et cetera.

24 You weren't merely responsible for mobilising men, were you? You

25 were responsible also for requisitioning or mobilising physical objects

Page 10566

1 like buildings and machinery and vehicles?

2 A. Yes. Whatever was needed according to establishment in terms of

3 personnel, materiel and everything else went through the department for

4 mobilisation and the requests that came from the Ministry of Defence for

5 the reinforcements that were needed.

6 Q. Essentially, supplies to the brigade came from two sources, didn't

7 they? They either came from the VRS or they came from the local

8 community?

9 A. From both sources, only the amounts, the methods, et cetera, these

10 are things I couldn't be precise about.

11 Q. All technical and military equipment would come from the VRS,

12 wouldn't it, from the rear services of the corps?

13 A. Yes. To the extent it was possible to provide such material,

14 because I assume it was always in short supply, at least that is my view,

15 judging by what I looked like in those days and the others I cooperated

16 with.

17 Q. But for other things, the brigade had to depend upon the local

18 community and the civil authorities, didn't it?

19 A. Yes. In view of the fact that I said that supplies were provided

20 as available, and this was insufficient for the numbers we had, the local

21 community participated in feeding and equipping the personnel. Now, what

22 the quantities were is something I don't know but I do know that we did

23 receive supplies from the local community. When talking about food, et

24 cetera, and sometimes also financial resources to be given to soldiers to

25 be able to buy whatever they needed for their families, which they were

Page 10567

1 separated from. These were negligent amounts and they were received on an

2 irregular basis.

3 Q. Thank you. Just one particular example before I explore this

4 further. The brigade had certain farm land, didn't it?

5 A. If you're referring -- I don't know what land you're referring to.

6 If you mean the area where, in Karakaj, a military farm was established on

7 a temporary basis, yes, it was used for a certain period of time. If

8 you're thinking of any other land, the brigade didn't have any.

9 Q. No. I was referring to that. There was an army farm in Karakaj,

10 wasn't there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. We've also heard about another farm at Branjevo but that wasn't

13 the only farm that the brigade had, was it?

14 A. I also heard about that one. I never went there. It was used for

15 the needs of the battalion which was located there.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Now, in return for the resources and

17 financial assistance that the local community provided the brigade, were

18 there occasions when civic and political leaders sought to influence the

19 way in which the brigade operated?

20 A. I can't answer that question because from my position at work, I

21 couldn't tell whether the local community or their representatives did ask

22 for anything in return. This is something I'm not aware of, and I don't

23 know. So I can't answer that question with any precision, I just don't

24 know.

25 Q. That's very fair of you. But did local businessmen or civic

Page 10568

1 leaders or people who considered themselves important ever seek to avoid

2 being mobilised in the brigade?

3 A. That is a question that will be best put to the department of the

4 Ministry of Defence. As for the local authorities and local politicians,

5 whether there were attempts along those lines, I think there were, yes,

6 because I remember, for instance, the reaction of a certain number of

7 personnel in the unit: Why somebody was privileged and was not mobilised?

8 Because apparently the authorities couldn't function without him, whereas

9 others have to go to the front lines, join the units and do whatever is

10 expected of them.

11 So I'm passing on just some views. This was not just me but many

12 people who spent some time in the unit heard these stories and this kind

13 of reaction with respect to those who were not mobilised at all or only

14 for short periods. Therefore, probably there was certain privileges given

15 to individuals so that they could avoid mobilisation. Now, whether the

16 authorities interfered, they probably did, since some people were not

17 mobilised. Nobody could protect me, and that is why I was mobilised, as

18 were thousands of others.

19 Q. Do you know what the commander of the brigade's attitude was to

20 such instances where people were not mobilised because of their position

21 or some privilege?

22 A. He had the same attitude towards all the others who were

23 mobilised, as far as I could see during the time period when I was in the

24 personnel service. Because the entire mobilisation went through the

25 service I was working in, therefore the attitude of the commanders towards

Page 10569

1 those who were "protected", and those who were drafted, was the same. He

2 felt it should be all or no one.

3 Q. Thank you. Were there meetings which members of the brigade

4 attended with the local civic and political authorities?

5 A. I never ever attended a meeting of that sort, whether there were

6 such meetings, I don't know. There probably were. But at any rate, I

7 never attended one, nor did I ever discuss anything with anyone at such

8 meetings.

9 Q. Thank you. You won't pursue that any further. But can you help

10 us to this? Are you aware whether Vinko Pandurevic was popular with the

11 local civil authorities or not?

12 A. I can only say this: He was more popular among the members of the

13 Zvornik Brigade than with the local authorities. Since I'm a member of

14 the army, I am aware of the sentiment, of the prevailing mood in the army,

15 and I believe that this popularity he enjoyed among the troops is

16 something that could not be equalled or compared to the attitude of the

17 local authorities towards him.

18 Q. Right. I want to move on now to the process of mobilisation and

19 requisitioning. If, for example, the brigade wished to use a building

20 that belonged to a private enterprise or the local authority, what would

21 be the process that you needed to go through?

22 A. A request would be sent to the department of the Ministry of

23 Defence to requisition a certain facility, and that department was in

24 charge of effecting that requisitioning, with prior verification of that

25 facility and its purpose, and if the Ministry of Defence approves it, its

Page 10570

1 representatives go out to inspect the facility together with members of

2 the brigade, and they make their record of the status of the building, the

3 inventory, et cetera, and then after it is no longer needed, those same

4 representatives return, following a certain procedure, the facility to the

5 owner.

6 Q. And was that the process that took place, whether the building was

7 required for a long period of time or maybe only a day or two?

8 A. Every building that needed to be used had to be requisitioned

9 officially, regardless of the duration, because those were private

10 structures, private ownership was guaranteed, and I see no reason why that

11 procedure should be bypassed.

12 Q. And is that true equally of machinery and vehicles, such as buses

13 or trucks?

14 A. It applied to all assets given to the army. Everything the army

15 needs to use and does not own has to be requisitioned and handed over to

16 the army with appropriate records made so that later on, that asset can be

17 returned to the owner, and the legally prescribed procedure had to be

18 followed. The Ministry of Defence is very well aware of that procedure

19 and I tried to describe it a moment ago.

20 Q. I'm going to show you a few documents in a moment but just to set

21 them in context, would each brigade within the Drina Corps have had

22 somebody who did the same job as you?

23 A. Every unit was formed according to establishment. The

24 establishment envisages all the organs that need to be set up. I know,

25 and I remember, two units of the brigade I belonged to, and in both of

Page 10571

1 them there was a section for personnel, and as for the units of other

2 brigades within the corps, I'm not familiar with them. But if our brigade

3 had such sections within its composition, then I believe that others did

4 too. They may have been called differently perhaps, but they must have

5 had a service to deal with personnel affairs.

6 Q. Thank you. And as I say, we'll see some documents in a minute but

7 equally, the Drina Corps itself would have had somebody charged with

8 requisitioning property on its behalf?

9 A. Could you explain that term, "requisitioning"?

10 Q. Mobilising.

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And similarly, the civil police and the MUP, if they wanted to use

13 property, be it a building or a vehicle, they had to obtain a mobilisation

14 order as well, didn't they?

15 A. I only know about the army, in the place where I was. About other

16 organisations, I don't know. Anything that I could say would be pure

17 speculation and I don't want to go into that.

18 Q. Very fair of you. Just to finish this off before we look at these

19 documents, the purpose of this was that people were who deprived of their

20 property on a temporary basis were entitled to be paid for it, weren't

21 they?

22 A. I'm not familiar with any remunerations that may have been paid

23 for the use of facilities and buildings.

24 Q. Very well. Now, so far as you were aware, and you were the person

25 responsible for it, if the Zvornik Brigade ever mobilised or requisitioned

Page 10572

1 any property for any period of time, it was always properly done by

2 requisitioning order, wasn't it?

3 A. Yes. That's how it was always done. And in that period, I had in

4 my possession a large number of records concerning property we had

5 requisitioned, and after a certain asset was no longer needed, the files

6 were closed, the assets were handed over back to the owner, and the whole

7 file was closed within the Ministry of Defence. But I'm not aware of

8 remunerations.

9 Q. Thank you. I just want to look at about five of these documents

10 with you from the relevant period and I want you to do me a favour,

11 Mr. Galic, in fact, do us all a favour, because these documents are only

12 in your language so I'm going to want to you read out what they are so

13 that those of us who don't speak your language will understand them. They

14 are not very long documents and I'm sure they are very familiar to you but

15 can we look first please at 7D99, please?

16 Is that big enough for you to see, Mr. Galic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just first of all, it has your name at the bottom but is that your

19 signature?

20 A. Yes. It's my name but it's not my signature.

21 Q. We can see that that's a document dated the 14th of July. Can you

22 read out what it says, please, from the top to the bottom, but

23 sufficiently slowly for the interpreters to interpret what you say?

24 A. "Military PO box 7469, Zvornik. Confidential number 05/284-1.

25 Date, 14th July 1995. Request for mobilisation submitted to, the section

Page 10573

1 of the Ministry of Defence in Zvornik. For purposes of securing the

2 medical centre in Zvornik, mobilise seven (say seven) military conscripts.

3 The mobilisation is to be effected immediately. Assistant Chief of Staff

4 for Personnel, Major Mihajlo Galic."

5 That is the text of this document.

6 Q. It's a long time ago. Do you remember making that request?

7 A. This was done in my absence because I was not within the unit that

8 day. This was done by the clerk who worked with me, Andjelko Ivanovic.

9 So this is a document that was sent to the Zvornik department of the

10 Ministry of Defence.

11 Q. Probably my fault, not a very good question, but what I meant was

12 do you remember what the purpose of the request was or did it not come to

13 your attention at all?

14 A. This document never reached me but I suppose this is a request

15 from somebody in the local community to secure the medical centre. There

16 was a shortage of personnel, and therefore I suppose this request was made

17 to mobilise seven men. That's my assumption because I never -- I've never

18 seen this document before.

19 Q. Thank you. Could we now look at 7D100, please?

20 You did a very good job last time, Mr. Galic. I wonder if you

21 could read this one out to us again, please, at about the same pace.

22 A. "Command of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, confidential number

23 01-268, 20th July 1995. Extension of duration of the engagement of the

24 crane requested by the Ministry of Defence, Zvornik department. To meet

25 the requirements of the brigade, extend the duration of engagement of the

Page 10574

1 crane together with operator indefinitely, the crane being the ownership

2 of DD Birac holdings, Zvornik. Signed by Assistant Chief of Staff for

3 Personnel, Major Mihajlo Galic."

4 Q. Thank you. Again the same question: Do you remember making this

5 request and why it was made?

6 A. I remember the request. This is an asset that had been

7 requisitioned before, and it was at the disposal of the Zvornik Brigade,

8 for a finite period of time, and since the expiry date was coming close,

9 we sent this request to extend the requisitioning for an indefinite period

10 and that's how it was done.

11 Q. Thank you. A slightly longer document, 7D101, but this one is, in

12 fact, translated. I have a correction to that particular assertion: No,

13 it's not.

14 It is a long document, Mr. Galic, so if you could just read the

15 top of it for us, please, rather than all of it?

16 A. Which beginning? Do you need the preamble, the heading? Where do

17 you want me to start?

18 Q. Can we establish the date, the title and the top paragraph,

19 please?

20 A. "Command of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, confidential number

21 01-60, 21 February 1994. Performance of tasks in the area of Han Pijesak,

22 order submitted to the commander of the Podrinje detachment."

23 Shall I continue?

24 Q. Yes, please.

25 A. "Pursuant to the order of the chief of Main Staff of the VRS and

Page 10575

1 the commander of the Drina Corps, strictly confidential number 03/5-98,

2 dated 21st February 1994. Related to continuing combat activities on the

3 axis Pjenovac, Zeravice, Kladanj and the exploitation of success achieved,

4 on the 20th of February 1994, I hereby order..."

5 Shall I continue?

6 Q. No, if you would be so good would you just summarise for us what,

7 as it were, property or manpower is mobilised or is requested to be

8 mobilised by that document?

9 A. No personnel is mobilised through this order. It's simply an

10 order to prepare a unit and later probably move it to another territory,

11 to prepare that unit and send it to a certain locality, as specified in

12 the order.

13 Q. Thank you. Can we look at 7D102, please?

14 Again, if you'd be so good, would you just summarise for us what

15 the order seeks to mobilise and the date of it?

16 A. Give me a second to have a look.

17 Q. Of course, Mr. Galic.

18 A. "The command of the Drina Corps, confidential number 22/268, 3rd

19 August, 1995, requisitioning of buses and freight motor vehicles,

20 request."

21 This request is in fact an assignment given to requisition buses

22 and freight vehicles. Section Milici, section Bratunac, section of the

23 Ministry of Defence in Zvornik, Sokolac, Rogatica, Han Pijesak, and Srpsko

24 Gorazde, Serbian Gorazde. All of these were given this request or

25 assignment.

Page 10576

1 Q. Thank you very much. And as you've told us, that's a request not

2 by the Zvornik Brigade but by the Drina Corps itself, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. One last document, you'll be pleased to hear, Mr. Galic, it's

5 7D107.

6 And again, if you would be so kind to take a little time to read

7 it and tell us what it is the order seeks, who the order is sought by, and

8 the date of it, please.

9 A. Although this copy is not very good, I will do my best.

10 "Republika Srpska, Ministry of Defence, District Staff of Civilian

11 Defence, Zvornik, number 03-137/95, date, 21st July, 1995.

12 "Addressed to the following sections of the Ministry of Defence:

13 Bratunac, Zvornik," the next two are all illegible but I suppose that's

14 Milici and Vlasenica, Sekovici and Kalesija and then added in longhand,

15 Srebrenica. So it was sent to these sections of the Ministry of Defence.

16 "Pursuant to Article," it could be 48 or 49, "and in accordance

17 with Article 36 of the Law on Defence (Official Gazette of the Serbian

18 people in Bosnia-Herzegovina) and following demonstrated needs, the chief

19 of the District Staff of Civilian Defence hereby orders:

20 "1: Municipal staffs of civilian Defence of Bratunac, Zvornik,

21 Milici, Vlasenica, Sekovici and Kalesija are hereby ordered to mobilise

22 and activate units of civilian defence to clear the terrain and, if

23 necessary, other units of civilian defence for the purposes of clearing

24 the terrain in their own municipalities.

25 "2: The clearing shall be performed in areas free of combat.

Page 10577

1 That is, on terrain that is not exposed to enemy military units.

2 "3: The clearing shall be done with the full cooperation of

3 commands of the VRS.

4 "In the course of clearing the terrain, use the assets and

5 equipment at your disposal.

6 "4:" I cannot read the first line. The second line

7 reads: "Units of civilian defence and those from the list. For purposes

8 of carrying out this order, chiefs of municipal staffs of civilian defence

9 and chiefs of military sections or departments, shall be answerable.

10 And the last line is, "Inform the district staff of civilian

11 defence of Zvornik about the execution of this order. Regularly inform

12 the district staff. Signed by Chief Arsen Krunic."

13 Q. Do you know who that man is, Arsen Krunic?

14 A. I know him. In fact, I know of him. He is a man who came to

15 Zvornik either from Kladanj or from Olovo where he lived before. I'm not

16 sure which one of the two.

17 Q. I just wanted you to tell me what job he did in 1995.

18 A. He was at the ministry. I think his job had to do with civilian

19 defence. He was chief of that district staff. You can see in the heading

20 that it's from the district staff of civilian defence, concerning these

21 municipalities.

22 Q. Thank you very much. And just one more thing before we leave that

23 document. We can see that paragraphs 2 and 3 begin with the same word,

24 which is "asanacija". Could you tell us what that is, please, and what it

25 entails, what it means?

Page 10578

1 A. The term "asanacija", means clearing the territory from something

2 that could cause epidemics, poisoning, and such things, from anything that

3 should not be preserved in the environment. But what exactly they were

4 supposed to do and how, I don't know.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, I've done with showing you these documents. I

6 want to ask you this: Schools belonged to local authorities, didn't they,

7 in 1995?

8 A. Yes. Elementary schools and the leaderships, that was their

9 property.

10 Q. During the period in which you've been answering questions about,

11 the period from the 11th to the 18th of July, did the Zvornik Brigade ever

12 seek to mobilise a school at Orahovac, Rocevic, Grbavci, Pilica, Petkovci?

13 ?

14 A. No, nor did we mobilise any.

15 Q. What about a farm at Agroprom, Branjevo, did it seek to mobilise

16 that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Heavy digging equipment or trucks, were you asked to obtain any

19 such equipment as that during this period?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So if such equipment and such buildings were used, it wasn't done

22 through you, through the Zvornik Brigade seeking to obtain them and use

23 them, was it?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.


Page 10579

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a two-part question, and one, the second

2 part I'm not sure he's qualified to answer.

3 MR. HAYNES: It's a question I don't need to ask anyway, so I'll

4 move on.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Move on, then, please. Thank you.


7 Q. Now, I want to ask you briefly about what you know about the

8 activities of Vinko Pandurevic between the 4th and the 15th of July of

9 1995. You were aware, weren't you, that during that period, he had taken

10 a unit, which we refer to as tactical group 1, to take part in Operation

11 Krivaja 95?

12 A. Yes. I'm aware of that. The name I do remember it, but I have

13 forgotten it, but he was absent in the period you mentioned.

14 Q. Were you also aware that the unit which he took to take part in

15 Operation Krivaja 95 was a full battalion plus additional logistical

16 support comprising a unit of 407 men?

17 A. The actual number and the state of the unit is something I do not

18 remember, but that it was a unit in the form of a mini-entity, I don't

19 know exactly how big it was, I don't remember, and I don't know what its

20 numerical strength was.

21 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you this: During the period that

22 Vinko Pandurevic was away, the 4th to the 15th of July, did you receive

23 any orders from him?

24 A. During that period, I did not receive any orders from

25 Mr. Pandurevic on any issue.

Page 10580

1 Q. During that period, did you hear from him?

2 A. No, no. I didn't hear from him, not at all, not even once.

3 Q. During that period, did you ever see him in the Zvornik area?

4 A. No. I didn't see him at all.

5 Q. And during that period, did you ever hear anybody say they had

6 seen him in the Zvornik area?

7 A. I didn't hear it, nor do I know that someone else may have seen

8 him.

9 Q. Upon his return on the 15th of July, are you aware that he went to

10 the brigade forward command post at about 1.00 in the afternoon?

11 A. I don't remember the time, but I know according to the combat

12 report, and others, that in the afternoon, I don't know at what time, he

13 was in the field, probably at the forward command post.

14 Q. You were telling us yesterday that the first you heard from him or

15 of him was when you were asked to relay an order to Mijo Dragutinovic; is

16 that correct?

17 A. To Dragutinovic?

18 Q. Yes, the first you heard of or from Vinko Pandurevic is when you

19 were asked to relay his order. Do you understand the question?

20 A. I do. I didn't hear from him directly but I was passed on this

21 order which I was to relay to Mijo Dragutinovic in the field, as I said

22 yesterday.

23 Q. Can you help us as to what time you became aware that you had to

24 pass on that order and what you did with that order?

25 A. That was about 1500 hours n the afternoon. I was tasked to go to

Page 10581

1 the Zlatne Vode region, which is about 2 to 3 kilometres from Zvornik

2 along the old road in the direction of Tuzla, to relay the order to

3 Dragutinovic that the unit that had returned from Srebrenica, after

4 certain tanks refueling, et cetera, that it should move forward and go to

5 the region of the Crni Vrh and Caparde. I passed this on to Dragutinovic

6 and returned to the barracks.

7 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move to an entirely different topic now

8 just briefly and that's the question of meetings at the brigade command.

9 A number of meetings and types of meetings were held at brigade command,

10 weren't there?

11 A. They were held at the brigade command, yes.

12 Q. They varied in size and in the scope of what was discussed. How

13 regularly would there be command meetings held at brigade command?

14 A. Meetings in the brigade command were held in the morning. Then

15 there was briefing, briefings monthly, with battalion commanders, and

16 other commanding officers. Then there would be occasional meetings of the

17 military personnel for information purposes. I think I have covered all

18 the meetings. I may have left something out. I can't remember any more.

19 Q. Just in general terms, how many people would attend a monthly

20 meeting?

21 A. The morning meetings would be attended by five or six men. Then

22 the briefing with battalion commanders and other units of battalion rank

23 that were independent, there would be about 15. Then meetings with

24 company commanders and independent companies, some 50 would attend. So

25 that would be approximately the numbers I can recall. The numbers of

Page 10582

1 meetings attending -- the numbers of persons attending these various

2 meetings.

3 Q. And would you regularly attend these meetings in your capacity as

4 assistant to the chief of staff?

5 A. I attended meetings except when I was in the field, when I was on

6 leave or when I had certain obligations in respect to the Ministry of

7 Defence, when I was sick, when I was undergoing treatment, but in all

8 other instances, if I was in the barracks that day, and if there is a

9 morning meeting, I would attend.

10 Q. At any meeting you attended, did you ever hear a discussion about

11 prisoners in schools, executions, burials or reburials?

12 A. No. The meetings I attended, and I attended the morning meetings,

13 whenever I was there, except when I was absent, as I said, I would also

14 attend the briefings with battalion commanders and commanders of other

15 units of the same ranks, company commanders, I also attended meetings of

16 the brigade command and the military personnel. This was something that

17 was never mentioned or anything to that effect, at meetings among these

18 people.

19 Q. Thank you. I just want to deal with one small topic and then

20 you'll be glad to hear you can have a break. You will not be glad to hear

21 that I'm going to break my promise to you to be about an hour. I've got a

22 few more questions for you after the break.

23 But I'd like you, please, if you would, to think about the period

24 around about the 17th or the 18th of July when you told us yesterday you

25 first saw Vinko Pandurevic after he came back from Srebrenica and Zepa.

Page 10583

1 You know the period I'm talking about?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I want to ask you this: Did he ever issue you with an order

4 that prisoners should be executed rather than taken prisoner?

5 A. That he issued such an order to me? Never. No one ever issued

6 such an order to me.

7 Q. Did you ever hear of such an order?

8 A. Again, I never heard of an order of that kind being issued to

9 anyone in my presence in the command of the Zvornik Brigade.

10 Q. Did Mr. Obrenovic ever tell you about such an order?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. And whilst I don't say when the breaks

13 occur, I would invite the Chamber to say now is an appropriate moment.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I could say that without any difficulty at all,

15 Mr. Haynes, but we started at half past 2.00 basically so if you want to

16 proceed for another 15 minutes.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: On the other hand, if we have the break now, we'll

19 have the advantage of having Judge Stole join us earlier.

20 MR. HAYNES: And I was go to observe that although we did start at

21 half past 2.00, the witness has been sitting in the chair since quarter

22 past 2.00, so he's been here for an hour and a half.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will have a 25-minute break starting from now.

24 Thank you.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

Page 10584

1 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.

3 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Mr. Galic, yesterday when you were being asked questions by

5 Mr. Bourgon, he showed you a plan of the structure of the Zvornik Brigade.

6 Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And he asked you some questions about the relationship between the

9 commander and the various assistant commanders and chiefs. Do you

10 remember that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And to summarise, you reported directly to the chief of staff,

13 Mr. Obrenovic, didn't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And other than the Chief of Staff, there were two assistant

16 commanders, one for logistics and one for religious, moral and legal

17 affairs, and a chief of security?

18 A. Legal, yes. There were other chiefs there too.

19 Q. Now, in relation to those four officers, the Chief of Staff, the

20 assistant commander for logistics, the assistant commander for religious

21 and moral affairs, and the chief of security, did all of them report

22 directly to the commander of the brigade? I should qualify that question;

23 I mean in 1995.

24 A. Yes. As did the other chiefs of services, in addition to those

25 that you have mentioned.

Page 10585

1 Q. What about the chief of security? Did he always report directly

2 to the commander of the brigade?

3 A. He reported to the commander of the brigade, according to the

4 command hierarchy, but as far as I know, the responsibility of the chief

5 of security is also directed toward the superior officer and to the

6 brigade commander.

7 Q. What do you mean by the superior officer?

8 A. From the corps command, depending on the questions involved. I

9 don't know the details but this is prescribed by regulations, acts,

10 orders, instructions, et cetera.

11 Q. Was that the position throughout the duration of your service, or

12 did it alter at some stage during the period of the war?

13 A. I don't believe that anything was changed. I can't assert one way

14 or the other. I believe that everything was done in the spirit of the

15 regulations in force on both sides.

16 Q. I'm going to see if I can refresh your memory a little bit. I'm

17 going to show you a document which is our 7D247. And to alert the court

18 staff to a technical problem, there is a translation of this document but

19 it isn't attached to it. So we'll have to find it before the conclusion

20 of Mr. Galic's evidence. So we'll just have to look at it in Cyrillic at

21 the moment, or in Serbian.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, the document is not in e-court.

23 MR. HAYNES: Then I'll come back do this question. That's the

24 easiest way.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, if you have the hard copy of both

Page 10586

1 versions.

2 MR. HAYNES: We don't.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't.

4 MR. HAYNES: But it can be in e-court in a matter of minutes and I

5 can return to it if that's the easiest way.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


8 Q. A different topic. Part of your duties, you were telling us

9 yesterday, was to issue death certificates in relation to soldiers who

10 died in the brigade, wasn't it?

11 A. No. Just -- not just death certificates but certificates about

12 wounds sustained and certificates about the killed members of the Zvornik

13 Brigade.

14 Q. And it was also part of your duty to keep a review of losses in

15 combat, of soldiers in the brigade?

16 A. Yes. The numbers were recorded in the service I was working in.

17 As for the names and all particulars of the losses were kept by the

18 department for morale, religious and legal affairs. These two departments

19 always had identical data, in terms of numbers and the particulars, names,

20 surnames, and every other particular, of the fighters killed in combat.

21 Q. Would you agree that the brigade commander does not know the

22 reality of battle losses until some days or weeks after the losses occur?

23 A. In the course of combat activities, it was not possible to have

24 precise information on losses, who were wounded lightly, more seriously,

25 those killed, missing, et cetera. These reports certainly reached the

Page 10587

1 commander eventually but the precise figures were available only once

2 those activities were completed, that is a day or two or maybe three days

3 later, if the operation was a major one. And after such operations, the

4 brigade commander does have, and had to have, precise information on all

5 losses suffered by the unit, which were collected from the units that took

6 part in combat operations and their commands. These were collected and

7 then the official and complete information was provided.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, we've heard in this case some evidence about the

9 combat activity that took place in the area of Baljkovica on the 16th of

10 July. Do you recall that?

11 A. I don't recall the testimony, but I do remember the information

12 that reached me and the department for morale linked to the losses that

13 were suffered on that day in Baljkovica. As part of the total losses of

14 the Zvornik Brigade had in the period from 1992 to 1995 or, rather, 1996.

15 Q. I want to explore with you, as it were, the developing state of

16 the command's knowledge as to the losses at Baljkovica. But before we do

17 that, I'd like you to explain to us some of the reports that the brigade

18 command would issue on a regular basis. It's right, isn't it, that on a

19 daily basis, a daily combat or regular combat report was sent by the

20 command?

21 A. Yes, to the superior command.

22 Q. And on occasion, though not always, an irregular or interim combat

23 report would be sent by the command to the superior command?

24 A. We called it, according to military terminology, an extraordinary

25 combat report. That is also correct, yes.

Page 10588

1 Q. Can you help us as to who would prepare, who would write, those

2 documents?

3 A. Regular operational reports were written by the duty operations

4 officer in the brigade command, whereas the interim combat reports were

5 drafted by the officers who thought it was indispensable to send such

6 reports to the superior command. So I can't tell you precisely whether it

7 was the commander, the chief of staff, the chief of a certain department,

8 but these regular daily reports compiling all the information about events

9 that took place that day were prepared by the duty operations officer.

10 Q. Thank you. And is it correct also that the regular or daily

11 combat reports tended to be sent at more or less precisely the same time

12 every day?

13 A. That is -- it was clearly stated when such reports should be sent

14 to the superior command.

15 Q. We are going to look firstly at a regular or daily combat -- no,

16 we are not. We are going to look at an irregular or extraordinary combat

17 report from the 16th of July, and I'd like to put into e-court for you to

18 have a look at now, please, Mr. Galic, P330.

19 Is that big enough for you to read?

20 A. Yes, yes, yes.

21 Q. Is that an irregular combat report for the 16th of July of 1995,

22 sent by the command of the Zvornik Brigade to the superior command of the

23 Drina Corps?

24 A. Yes, it is an extraordinary report. Can I see the signature? I

25 can't see the whole report. Yes, yes.

Page 10589

1 Q. Can you identify the signature?

2 A. There is no signature. This was just signed with the rank,

3 commander, and the first and last name, because this is a document that

4 was sent through the communications system. They must have received a

5 document that was signed. This is just the text that was encoded -- in

6 coded form sent to the superior command.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, I wonder if the document could be brought -- I'm

8 bound to get it wrong -- down or up. I want to see the second part of

9 paragraph 2, please. Now, does this report contain information as to the

10 number of dead that had been -- the number of deaths that had been

11 sustained by the brigade according to the belief of the command at that

12 time on the 16th of July?

13 A. Shall I read it? I see that it's written in combat we had dozens

14 of men wounded, about ten dead, and five gone missing. We shall provide

15 more precise information later.

16 Q. That's enough. That's all I want you to read. The information as

17 to the number of dead, as the command believed it to be at the time this

18 message was sent. And I think if we go to the bottom of the document

19 again we will see the time at which it was sent. I wonder if you could

20 help us as to that? Does it say 1810 or 10 past 6.00 in the evening?

21 A. We see a stamp, and the signature of people who were doing the

22 encryption, and it says, "Due to the bad condition of the relay, the

23 telegram was repeated several times," and the times are indicated.

24 Q. Thank you. Could you just help us with the times so that we can

25 have them on the record? I think there is 1758, 1810, and then 2005. Is

Page 10590

1 that right?

2 A. Correct, correct.

3 Q. Now, as we were saying earlier, of course, the reality of battle

4 losses are not always immediately available or available to the commander

5 but we can see that by the evening of the 16th of July, the command

6 thought they had lost ten men. Let's have a look at how the information

7 they had developed over the next few days. Can we have a look at P331,

8 please?

9 Can you read that, Mr. Galic, or is it too faint for you?

10 A. Do you want me to read it all?

11 Q. You can read it all to yourself and those of us who speak English

12 can read it in English but I'm going to -- if you read it through to

13 yourself I'm going to ask you if you agree with this: This is a regular

14 combat report from the 17th of July and it shows no losses at all, doesn't

15 it? And I think you'll need to look at paragraph 7 in the document. Can

16 the document be taken down for -- thank you.

17 A. I can't see it. I cannot see which paragraph it is. I see item

18 7, 8 and 9, the three last ones.

19 Q. 7 is the one at the top of the page now. Are you able to read

20 that for us?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you agree with me that it shows no losses at all?

23 A. I'm trying to make it out, but I can't make out the first four

24 words, so no losses are shown here.

25 Q. Well, I'm going to try and read it to you. It says, "There were

Page 10591

1 no casualties. We will send you a more detailed information on previous

2 events in a supplementary report." And again, could you tell us at what

3 time that document was sent? What time was that document sent?

4 A. This document -- could you show the entire stamp, 17 July, 1995,

5 at 1920 hours.

6 Q. Thank you. So it appears from this that by 20 past 7.00 on the

7 17th of July, the command of the Zvornik Brigade still thought they had

8 only lost ten men. I want to go to P334 now, which is an irregular combat

9 report from the 18th of July.

10 And to help you, you're going to have to look, I think, at

11 paragraph 3 of this report.

12 A. Yes. I see the paragraph. Shall I read it?

13 Q. That would be very kind of you.

14 A. "In combat with Muslim forces in Srebrenica, Zepa and with the

15 stragglers and the forces of the 24th and 25th infantry divisions of the

16 2nd Corps of the BH army, the Zvornik Infantry Brigade sustained the

17 following losses: Dead, 27 conscripts; seriously wounded --

18 Q. That's all I'm interested in. But by the 18th of July, the state

19 of knowledge of the brigade as to the number of dead it had suffered was

20 that there had been 27 people killed, but that included the action at

21 Srebrenica, the action at Zepa, and all other combats with the 2nd Corps

22 and the 24th and the 25th divisions; is that right?

23 A. That is written in that -- in this report, in item 3.

24 Q. Thank you. Let's see if we can work out how many people died at

25 Srebrenica. We can look at P321 now, please.

Page 10592

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I don't have an objection to him

2 putting his case through this witness and as opposed to calling the

3 witness back but there should be some connection between this witness and

4 the testimony, and just going through documents this witness is not aware

5 of or connected to is my objection. If he can connect it no problem but I

6 think we are just going through documents and he's agreeing with them.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment, Mr. Haynes?

8 MR. HAYNES: He's the chief -- assistant chief of staff for

9 personnel. He told us yesterday he signed death certificates. On August

10 the 21st of last year, Mr. McCloskey opened his case on the basis that 50

11 men had died at Baljkovica on the 16th of July. I want to put the

12 evidence straight about that. And this is the best witness to do it.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't see any basis for your objection,

15 Mr. McCloskey. Mr. Haynes, you may proceed.

16 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.

17 Q. I was just going to ask the witness to look at P321, if we can.

18 And we are going to need to scroll down, where I think you'll find some

19 names. The following page, please. Again, it's a faint paragraph 7. Can

20 you see five names there, and a bit of text above it? Would you read that

21 out to us, please?

22 A. Yes. "As a result of combat activities executed in the area of

23 Srebrenica, the following men were killed in our brigade: Dragan Nikolic;

24 Djuro Ubiparipovic. Zoran Dukic. Milisav Micic. Radovan Ostojic." With

25 the father's name indicated for each of them.

Page 10593

1 Q. Were any of those men known to you, Mr. Galic?

2 A. I see under number 4, this young man from my home town who was

3 killed. I didn't know the others.

4 Q. But according to that report, which is a report from the 11th of

5 July, five people died at Srebrenica, and if my mathematics is correct,

6 that should suggest that the brigade lost 22 people in all other combats,

7 doesn't it?

8 A. According to this report and this information, that's correct.

9 Q. Now, I just want you to see one more document, which is 3D56,

10 please.

11 Do you recognise this document?

12 A. Yes. That's a list of the fighting men from the Zvornik Brigade

13 who were killed. It was prepared by this section for morale, religious

14 and legal affairs.

15 Q. And next to each name on the far right-hand side, does it give the

16 date and place where they were killed?

17 A. Yes. Against each name we see the date of birth, the date of

18 death, and the place of death.

19 Q. Now, you know, because you've looked at this before, that this is

20 a document that runs to 20 pages, doesn't it?

21 A. I know the document. I don't know the number of pages. But I did

22 hold this document a thousand times.

23 Q. Thank you. Well, I'm going to have you handed now a hard copy of

24 this document, and I've got copies for everybody.

25 Now, one of the occasions when you handled this document before

Page 10594

1 was when you and I went through it together the other day, wasn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did we highlight in the document the occasions or the people

4 who had died at Baljkovica in July of 1995?

5 A. Yes. It's highlighted in colour.

6 Q. And just to short circuit it, it matches up with the other

7 document we've seen because we find 22 people died at Baljkovica, three on

8 the 15th, and 19 on the 16th; is that correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Tacno or not tacno is -- Mr. Haynes, on page 12, for

11 example, number 6 from the top, he also died allegedly, Vaso Novakovic in

12 Baljkovica. Yeah, but that's on the 30th, that's 1993. And there is

13 another one on 1992, on page 14. So you're restricting yourself to the --

14 MR. HAYNES: I'm restricting myself to the battle that is relevant

15 to this trial.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.


18 Q. Now, I just want to complete this picture by showing you a couple

19 of other documents which illustrate a different point, and that's P325.

20 If we could just go down to the bottom part of this document, and

21 a bit further, all I'd like you to do quickly, and we can do it by reading

22 the document as well as anything else, is to confirm that no losses were

23 reported to the corps command on the 13th of July, and if we look quickly

24 at P326, please --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, have you seen -- are you familiar with this

Page 10595

1 document already? Have you seen it before?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see it before, but even now

3 I don't see it on the screen.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is why I pointed it out, because if he's

5 looking at what I am looking, then obviously he cannot see it. We did

6 have it in the initial stages. We had the first page.

7 MR. HAYNES: It needs to go up to the previous page in the Serbian

8 version, and he needs to look at paragraph 7.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I see the first page.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And your attention is directed to that one sentence

11 in paragraph 7. If you could read it out aloud, please.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "As a result of an enemy shell, one

13 soldier was slightly shell-shocked. He remained in the unit."


15 Q. And I'd like to go on now, please, quickly to P326.

16 My guess is it's going to be paragraph 7 again.

17 A. I've read it. "In the past reporting period, there were no men

18 wounded lightly or seriously."

19 Q. Thank you very much. And by whom is that document apparently

20 sent?

21 A. This document was sent by Chief of Staff Major Dragan Obrenovic,

22 to the command of the superior staff.

23 Q. It probably follows from the other documents we've looked at as to

24 the total numbers of dead but Mr. Obrenovic did not, on the 13th or the

25 14th of July, apparently report any lost men at all, did he?

Page 10596

1 A. I still don't see it in the report.

2 Q. That's all right. I'm finished with that particular topic.

3 Would you just bear with me one minute, Mr. Galic?

4 [Defence counsel confer]


6 Q. I'm going to go back to the topic I left a few minutes ago and ask

7 if you can now be shown 7D247, please.

8 Firstly, have you seen a document like that before? Or have you

9 seen that document before, would be a better question.

10 A. I did not see this document before, but I heard that it had

11 reached the unit.

12 Q. I don't want to read it out but what was the effect of that

13 document and what date does it originate from?

14 A. The date is the 24th of October 1994. It came from the Main Staff

15 of the army of Republika Srpska, and it relates instructions concerning

16 command and control over security intelligence organs of the VRS.

17 Q. And what instruction did it give? Did it change an existing

18 situation in any way? And if so, how?

19 A. I noticed one thing, and I think that probably this instruction

20 clearly defined certain activities that were not properly conducted

21 before. It was necessary to clarify whether it was necessary to send two

22 combat reports or only one. I didn't know exactly in which month it was

23 sent but we were told that this instruction had arrived and that it

24 stipulated that two reports should be sent to the superior command: The

25 regular operations report and one report made by the security organs.

Page 10597

1 After that, there was no longer any ambiguity or any problems. It was

2 done according to instructions, if that is the content of what I'm just

3 seeing.

4 Q. Well, I'm going to leave that with you, Mr. Galic, and perhaps

5 take it up some other time.

6 Just one last topic, you'll be glad to hear. And it's about being

7 a duty officer.

8 It's correct, isn't it, that there was a duty officers' rota at

9 brigade command?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that the duty officer would change every 24 hours?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that generally speaking, the changeover would occur at about

14 8.00 in the morning?

15 A. In the morning, at the commander's office, or the chief of staff's

16 office, if the commander was absent.

17 Q. And would there be effectively a night watchman to deal with the

18 night-time and a duty officer who was there during the day?

19 A. Correct, yes.

20 Q. Now, there were a number of documents available to the duty

21 officer. I want to ask you about a couple of them. One was known as the

22 duty officer's notebook, wasn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the duty officer's notebook would record important messages

25 for the commander or the chief of staff, whoever was in charge of the

Page 10598

1 brigade at the time?

2 A. All sorts of information were entered in that notebook, not only

3 concerning the commander. Even private messages were entered there, if a

4 family was trying to contact someone who was not there at the moment.

5 There was no stipulated procedure. There was no strict procedure

6 concerning what could be entered. The duty officer would enter all sorts

7 of information and, as I said, that sometimes included private telephone

8 calls from families.

9 Q. One of the things that the duty officer had to be aware of was the

10 whereabouts of the commander at any particular time, wasn't it?

11 A. Correct. Or the deputy, if he's outside the zone of

12 responsibility on any business.

13 Q. Thank you. That would even include if the commander or the deputy

14 was on personal business. There would be some record of how to contact

15 him, wouldn't there?

16 A. Yes. Let me point out that it was customary for both of them to

17 open the door of the duty officer and tell him, "From now until such and

18 such a time, I will be in a certain place, and you can reach me at this

19 phone number." And he would leave. And that is all the duty officer

20 would know. That was how both Mr. Pandurevic and Mr. Obrenovic acted.

21 Q. And I'm going to very quickly show you one example of that, and

22 it's 7D138 in e-court.

23 In the middle of that page, you see a phone number, 589-991, and

24 next to it komandant or K'dant. Do you know where a 589 number would be

25 in the Zvornik area?

Page 10599

1 A. Yes, I do. I know which area is covered by this telephone

2 exchange.

3 Q. And are you familiar with that number that was left there in

4 relation to the commandant on the 26th of June apparently?

5 A. Yes, it is a number, though it is hard to say now, and to

6 interfere in anyone's privacy. I'm at court, so this is the number of a

7 friend of Commander Pandurevic, and he would drop in there. And that is

8 why that number is noted. If the need should arise, that he could be

9 called up. And it is about two to two and a half kilometres away from the

10 brigade command.

11 Q. Was it a man or a woman friend?

12 A. A woman friend.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, I just want to move briefly on to another

14 document that was kept at brigade command, and that's the diary of the

15 duty operations officer. Do you remember that document?

16 A. Is that the document on the monitor now?

17 Q. No, it's not the document on the monitor now. It's another

18 document. It's the duty operations officer's diary. Do you remember that

19 document being at brigade command?

20 A. I have to make something clear. The diary of the operations duty

21 officer, and the one in the barracks, so will you ask me which exactly you

22 are asking me about, the duty operations officer, the duty office in the

23 barracks, and then there was the barracks commander and that was not

24 Mr. Pandurevic. And then there was the duty operations officer. So I'd

25 like to know which.

Page 10600

1 Q. That's a very fair question of me and I want to know about the

2 diary of the duty operations officer.

3 A. I am familiar with it, but I'd like to see what you're going to

4 show me for me to be able to recognise it.

5 Q. Before I do that, I'd just like to know what the duty operations

6 officer would record in that book or document. Would he similarly record

7 the comings and goings of the commander or the komandant?

8 A. I assume he would. I have a report in front of me with notes by

9 the duty operations officer, says, "Palma, situation regular, Draga to

10 call up Milosevic, Stanevic, Milos, Pero [phoen] From Sokolac." He asked

11 for Milosevic, deal with the problem of sick leave of officers, in regular

12 combat reports, et cetera. These are the observations made by the duty

13 operations officer in the course of the day, and reports from the field

14 are collected together and then forwarded to the superior command.

15 Clearly it doesn't have any particular format. These are just notes.

16 Q. What I'm really seeking to ask you is whether the document that

17 you have in front of you, which is the duty officer's notebook, and the

18 other document I'm referring to, which is the diary of the operations duty

19 officer, would contain similar information about the whereabouts of the

20 commander.

21 A. One might find it in the duty operations officer's book. The

22 barracks commander would not keep a record of such things. And there was

23 no need for him to do that.

24 Q. I'm going to cut to the chase here. Could you have a look,

25 please, at our 7D207? This is an entry for the duty officer's notebook

Page 10601

1 from the 16th of September.

2 Can we go down this page, please?

3 Would you see the entry, the third asterisk up from the bottom?

4 And read that over to us, please.

5 A. "Vinko Pandurevic" -- this is smudged so I can't see what it is.

6 I can't read it. It's illegible. "Vinko Pandurevic" --

7 Q. What I'm going to do -- is that better for you?

8 A. It's larger but it's still not clear.

9 Q. Can you see the time at the end, please?

10 A. It says 11.30.

11 Q. What I'm going to suggest to you [Microphone not activated]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone, Mr. Haynes, seems to have -- now

13 it's on. Could you repeat.

14 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

15 Q. What I believe the English translation to be is Vinko Pandurevic

16 returned back at 11.30.

17 A. Yes. I see that now. "Returned at 11.30." It's not -- I

18 couldn't see very well because of the lines on the paper.

19 Q. Just bear with me a second.

20 Mr. Galic, I'm very sorry I took so long with you having said I'd

21 only be an hour but I'm finished now. Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, regarding 7D247, which you said -- you

23 were told at the time was not yet on e-court, then eventually we saw it,

24 have you traced also the English version of it?

25 MR. HAYNES: We believe the position is this: Mr. Bourgon

Page 10602

1 helpfully turned around and says that it looks as though the Nikolic

2 Defence team have put it into e-court in both of its forms as well so

3 maybe we can sort that out before the end which will save us having to

4 locate the English translation which, as I understand it, is in e-court

5 under a different number.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: We found it and sent it to you folks. So you've

8 got it now.

9 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much, indeed. That's very kind of

10 you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Haynes. Mr. Bourgon, would

12 you now please conclude your cross-examination?

13 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. The number I was

14 indicated to my colleague is 3D124, which is on e-court is the English

15 translation of the document they were referring to.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon: [Continued]

18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Galic.

19 A. Good afternoon.

20 Q. I have a few more questions to ask of you today, and I will try to

21 proceed as quickly as possible.

22 First, you said yesterday, and I'd like you to confirm, that you

23 did at times act as operational duty officer during the period from June

24 to September 1995. Can you confirm that, please?

25 A. Operations duty officer, yes.

Page 10603

1 Q. And how often did you act as operational duty officer?

2 A. I can't remember. I don't know. But according to the schedule.

3 I can't remember exactly when and in what order.

4 Q. Well, if I say to you, Mr. Galic, what kind of frequency? Was it

5 regular? Was it something that you did only once or twice? Can you add

6 any -- can you give us any information as to the frequency that you would

7 be the operations duty officer?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: A slight clarification, we have IKM and brigade so

10 he knows which one you mean.

11 MR. BOURGON: I believe, Mr. President, the witness understood and

12 he corrected me by saying operational duty officer. We are referring to

13 the Zvornik Brigade command. We are not referring to IKM. And I believe

14 the witness understood that.

15 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Galic?

16 A. Yes. That's clear. But the gentleman is also right. I said that

17 I was on duty according to the schedule. Now what that schedule was like,

18 I can't remember. Was it once a fortnight, once a month, twice, I can't

19 recall.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. If you would receive -- when you were on

21 duty -- first of all, you -- of course, my colleague asked you some

22 questions and my understanding is that you would have to complete both the

23 operational duty officer's notebook as well as the duty officer diary. Is

24 that correct?

25 A. To write down information in the diary of the operational duty

Page 10604

1 officer and the diary of the officer on duty? These are two separate

2 notebooks. The operational duty officer makes notes in one of those

3 documents, and the other document, entries are entered by the duty officer

4 in the barracks in that other document.

5 Q. Okay. We'll get back and I'll show you some documents like this.

6 Now, my colleague shared with you information that would go into the

7 operational duty officer's notebook. And what I'm interested in is if you

8 would receive a phone call during your period of duty, I take it that

9 would you write the name of the individual or of the unit, followed by a

10 dash, and then you would write the information obtained from that person

11 or unit; is that correct?

12 A. It all depends how the information is being conveyed. If it's by

13 telephone, I don't know whether the duty operations officer will note it

14 down or not, whether he's retained it in his memory or not. It all

15 depends. I don't know how I can answer that question. Logically, he

16 should make note of it. Now, whether each one of them did or not, I don't

17 know. Because this applies to me too. The operational duty officer, as

18 we have seen, sometimes notes everything, sometimes not. I don't know.

19 Q. Fair enough, Mr. Galic. Let's look at a few examples. I'd like

20 to call up on e-court, 3D126. Now I have to say that this is a Defence

21 document which is part of P377. So it needs to be opened but with 3D126.

22 And there is a translation included therein, and that's the translation I

23 would like to use, the second translation. And I believe this was

24 prepared at the break. I'd like to go to English page 6, as well as B/C/S

25 page 13. And to have both on the screen, please.

Page 10605

1 Mr. Galic, I will ask to you to look at the document before you,

2 where you see the word "Livada". Do you see that?

3 A. Livada, yes.

4 Q. Now, beside Livada, there is a dash and then it says, "Situation

5 normal." Now, would I be right in saying that this refers to information

6 which was received from Livada?

7 A. I believe so.

8 Q. And if I look at the word also in the same document, where it

9 says, "MAD," or mike-alpha-delta, it says "MAD" then there is a dash, and

10 in English it says, "Has executed the order to raise the level of combat

11 readiness."

12 Now, my understanding -- do you see the word "MAD" at the top of

13 the page?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Now, my understanding is that this is information which was

16 received from the mixed artillery battalion; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, the battalion.

18 Q. Now, I'd like to move, keeping the same document, I'd like to move

19 to English page 11 and B/C/S page 18, and I draw your attention,

20 Mr. Galic, to the first entry on this page. Do you have it on the English

21 and we now have it in your language.

22 Now, the first entry, if you can read it for yourself, and the

23 other -- in the courtroom, we have the English version and my

24 understanding is that this is information which was received by the

25 Zvornik Brigade operations duty officer, and that this information was

Page 10606

1 received from the security officer present at the forward command post; is

2 that correct?

3 A. How can I say on the basis of what, whether this is the duty

4 operations officer, the duty officer? I really find it difficult to take

5 a position when shown such documents. It's very hard for me to look at

6 each of these documents to say whether it was written by this or that

7 person. You must know that I didn't know all ten or 15.000 soldiers of

8 the Zvornik Brigade and how they write their notes. I'm just a

9 participant who does not have such memory able to keep all that this my

10 mind.

11 Q. Mr. Galic, is this information which was received by the

12 operations duty officer? Please say yes or no. Was this information

13 received?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 Q. So it can be in the book and it wasn't received by the Zvornik

16 Brigade operational duty officer?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's told you that he doesn't know.

18 JUDGE KWON: Make sure he's reading the very sentence, the

19 paragraph.


21 Q. Mr. Galic, I draw your attention to the first entry at the top

22 where it says the letters I-K-M for forward command post, security, dash,

23 and then it says that they -- that they are coming from behind Krizevici

24 and there is shooting at SO Potocari.

25 Do you see the sentence?

Page 10607

1 A. I do, what --

2 Q. Now what I say, Mr. Galic, is --

3 A. -- what you had just read out.

4 Q. The following: I suggest to you that this is information which is

5 coming from the security officer who is present at the forward command

6 post. This page refers to the 14th of July. And what I'd like to know is

7 can you tell me which of the two Zvornik Brigade security officers was

8 with you at the IKM on the 14th of July, if any.

9 A. No one was with me at the forward command post on the 14th.

10 Q. And what do you make of this entry in the operational duty officer

11 notebook?

12 A. I don't know how to -- what to make of it. The duty operations

13 officer, if we look at this, who wrote it and how, we see two quite

14 different handwritings, I simply cannot comment on this, and cannot give

15 you any answer, whether the duty operations officer received this or not,

16 I don't know, I can't judge on the basis of this.

17 Q. I'm asking. If you don't know, please just say so and we'll move

18 on. I'd like to move on to page 19 in English and page 26 in B/C/S.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Bourgon. I mean, just in case I am

20 right, but in the English text, in the second line, we have SO Potocari.

21 In the transcript, when you read it out, also we find that you stating SO

22 Potocari. Was it Potocari or Potocani? I can't really decipher --

23 MR. BOURGON: [Speakers overlapping]... Translation besides I'm not

24 sure if I can make whether it's Potocari or Potocani. I would guess it's

25 Potocani but to be honest this is not really my point today.

Page 10608

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just mentioning in case it can be clarified.

2 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps the witness can enlighten us on that. You

4 can see the text, the handwritten text in your own language on the screen.

5 The third line, where you have SO, is it Potocari or Potocani?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Potoca" -- and then there is a

7 squiggle that doesn't look like any letter. It says "Potoca" and then I

8 can't read that letter either.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can we -- is this entry dated on the

10 previous page, Mr. Bourgon? Is this entry, this particular entry, dated

11 on the previous -- on any of the previous pages?

12 MR. BOURGON: Yes, on the previous pages and it's dated 14th of

13 July and that's what I put to the witness. It's not on this page but.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we see it.

15 MR. BOURGON: Yes. So this was page -- this was English -- this

16 was English 11 so can we go to English 10? And we'll have to scroll back.

17 I don't know exactly. I think we have to go to page 8 in English to see

18 the date.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go back page by page until we find the

20 date, please.

21 MR. BOURGON: Yeah. And this is page 8, Mr. President, and on top

22 we see 14 July and the information. Then we can move with the same size

23 if we can now to page 9.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: There's quite a bit more foundation that you'll be

Page 10609

1 hearing about dates and how this book is dated so I would just before we

2 get there --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Stop, stop. All right. I just wanted to

4 know whether from the document on the face of it there appears a date or

5 not. And you've indicated page 8 as containing the date of the 14th of

6 July, assuming that there is a sequence after that, all right?

7 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. I move on now to page 19 in English and page 26 in B/C/S. Now,

9 Mr. Galic, this entry is still on the 14th of July, and I'd like to see if

10 you see something here that concerns you in this book.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what does that --

13 A. "Galic should mobilise all able-bodied men." It's written in

14 capitals.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. The indication in the book is that

16 this is the 15 July.

17 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, my mistake, it is 15 July. It is my

18 mistake. Indeed.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you both. Let's proceed.


21 Q. Now, I'd like to now move to the forward command post, operations

22 duty log, and I'd like to call up on e-court P347. And I'd like to move

23 immediately to English, page 6 -- English page 6 and B/C/S page 8.

24 Now, you will see from the document that will come up, Mr. Galic,

25 that this is where you recognised your handwriting yesterday, but before I

Page 10610

1 ask you questions on this page, I have one more question before that.

2 In your second interview with the Prosecution, and I'm not going

3 to show it to you unless you insist, on page 5 and in B/C/S on page 9,

4 there was a question which was put to you by the investigator, which is:

5 "Had you served as a duty officer at the forward command post

6 before?"

7 And your answer was: "Yes, like all other commanding officer and

8 officers, we had our duties, regular shifts, regular shifts at the forward

9 command post or twice a month."

10 My question is very simple: Do you understand what I just

11 mentioned, that comes from your second interview with the Prosecution --

12 first?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. And my question is simple: How do you reconcile this answer which

15 you gave to the investigator during the second interview, meaning regular

16 shifts and duties like all other commanding officers, with your first

17 interview where you said you had little to do with such things? How do

18 you reconcile the two?

19 A. In the first interview, I don't believe I said quite that, the way

20 you put it. I was the operations duty officer according to the schedule,

21 as well as a duty officer on the forward command post according to

22 schedule. I couldn't have said anything else. Now, when I was there, I

23 can't remember. Unless we look at the notebook and see what the schedule

24 was. We discussed this yesterday.

25 Q. Let's make it easier, Mr. Galic. Let's go to 3D116. I'm sorry

Page 10611

1 for the Court usher, just to 3D116, page 5 in English and page 9 in B/C/S.

2 So you can see exactly what you said to the investigator during the first

3 interview. Sorry, it's not 3D116, it's 3D115, the first interview. So we

4 have 3D115 in English on the left and now we'll put up in your language on

5 the right.

6 If we can scroll down the English on the left, please.

7 Let's move on because I don't want to waste any time in looking at

8 this.

9 My question, Mr. Galic, is the following: In your second

10 interview, you described that being on duty was a regular matter, whereas

11 in your first interview you said you had little to do with being --

12 anything that has to do with duty officers. My question is quite simple:

13 How do you reconcile the two?

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, he's asked for the statement about

15 "little to do with". I didn't see it. I know it's hard to find this

16 stuff sometimes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. McCloskey is perfectly right.

18 MR. BOURGON: I will come back, Mr. President, and I will move on.

19 Q. I'd like to move to the documents I asked earlier which was the

20 forward command post log, and that was P347, and to go English page 6 and

21 B/C/S page 8. Now, you have before you, Mr. Galic, on the right side in

22 B/C/S, that is the -- what you saw yesterday, and you recognised your

23 writing where it says 13 July 1995; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I'd like to move to --

Page 10612

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- the top of this page, and I'd like you to look at the headers

3 on the top of this page. First I'd like to go back to page 5 first,

4 please. Page 5, English and page 7, B/C/S, sorry. What I'd like you to

5 look at, Mr. Galic, is the top, the headings which go with the columns and

6 what we see is that there are six columns with the following headers,

7 number, date and time, contents, officer taking over duty, officer handing

8 over duty, and finally there is a row and can you tell me what this word

9 is, the sixth column that is there at the end?

10 A. "Primedba" which means remarks, observations.

11 Q. Now, first of all, Mr. President, I'd like to note that in the

12 English version the sixth column is not there and it should be there.

13 It's simply missing, it's the column with remarks.

14 Now, I'd like to move, if you can look at this was the page which

15 was immediately, if we scroll down please on the B/C/S version, which

16 says, 12 July 1995. Can we now move to the next page, English page 6,

17 B/C/S page 8? Now, I will ask you to look at this document and confirm

18 that in this document also, there are six columns, and even though there

19 are no headers at the top it follows the same model as the previous page,

20 with the six columns being number, date, time, content, taking over duty,

21 handing over duty, and remarks. Do you see this, Mr. Galic?

22 A. I do. I see those columns, though we can't actually see it on the

23 screen.

24 MR. BOURGON: Now, Mr. President, I'd like simply to make a

25 reference that the two pages I've just shown, which are in English page 5

Page 10613

1 and 6, in the original book are side by side, and my colleague can confirm

2 this.

3 Q. Now, I'd like to move now to the next page, which is 7 in English

4 and 9 in B/C/S. And I'd like you to comment on the new headings or the

5 headings which appear at the top of this page, which is the page that you

6 filled in.

7 A. Date, time, content, officer taking over duty, officer handing

8 over duty.

9 Q. Now, if you go back to the beginning, if we can scroll to the

10 left -- to the right, sorry, we can see at the beginning there is no

11 longer a column with number; is that correct?

12 A. I don't understand. It doesn't say number? What number?

13 Q. We can go back to the previous page where the first column was the

14 number of the entry, and in this page, now, can we go back one page on the

15 B/C/S side, on both sides, go back one page? Sorry, that was the right

16 page, sorry, we had the right page. If we can go back to the page with

17 the 15th? Now, if we can just leave it like this, you see the headings at

18 the top, is that your writing, Mr. Galic?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. What I'm saying to you is whereas before, we had six columns with

21 the first column being number and -- of entry and the last being remarks,

22 we have now moved to a new format with five columns, with the date, the

23 time, the contents and in and out. There is no longer any remarks column.

24 There is no longer a column with number. My question is: If this is your

25 writing, then why did you change the format of the book on that day?

Page 10614

1 A. I can't remember at all why, nor is there any reason. What is

2 important here is the date, the time, the description of activities of the

3 people who were on duty and who replaced each other. I see no reason why

4 it should be this way or that way. There is no prescribed way of doing

5 it. It's just a notebook in which lines were drawn, tables, and these

6 data were entered.

7 Q. Now, if we go back to the previous page, on both English and the

8 B/C/S, we will see that there was an entry number there. And I draw your

9 attention beside 13 July 1995, you put a number 8 there. And if we go

10 back one page before that, on both sides, both the English and the B/C/S,

11 we see the entry numbers in the book, where you have entry number 6, entry

12 number 7, the following page is where you put entry number 8, and then the

13 page I referred you to there are no longer entry numbers. I'm asking you

14 why did you stop putting entry numbers if this is your writing? Can we go

15 back to the page which has 15 July which is -- why did you change the

16 format and why is there no longer entry numbers?

17 A. I simply don't know.

18 Q. If we can go back one page, now we see here in the English version

19 that there is a separation line between the 13th and the 14th, but in the

20 original version, there is no separation line there. As a matter of fact,

21 the separation line is the one that is on top of the entry of the 13 July.

22 Now, seems logical to me there should be a line between 13 and 14. Why

23 did you not put a separation line there?

24 A. I don't remember, and I don't know, and don't know what that is

25 supposed to mean, if my duty continued.

Page 10615

1 Q. Okay. Can we move to the next page? In the same manner here,

2 between the leftover of the 14 July which is at the top of the page, and

3 the 15th of July, where you have 0445, you did not put a line to separate

4 the days. Is there a reason why you did not separate those days like

5 everywhere else in this book the dates are separated?

6 A. I was on duty on the 15th of July until 7.00 in the morning.

7 These activities happened at 0445. And I probably -- I had already

8 written there what the units from the ground informed me as to what was

9 going on, and that's probably the reason why this was not underlined. But

10 a line was drawn when I turned in, and others replaced me on duty.

11 Q. Now, my question, Mr. Galic, is if you look where you signed in

12 this book, you signed in the column beside 15 July as the officer taking

13 over duty. Why is it that after changing the format of this book, you

14 signed in this column and not in the column which says officer handing

15 over duty?

16 A. That was the only place in that column where I could have signed.

17 I see no other reason. You're asking me things that -- all this related

18 to activities while I was on duty. I could have signed in the beginning,

19 in the middle, at the end. I don't see why I would have signed at the

20 bottom or on top.

21 Q. Now, we see, Mr. Galic, that the next entry after the 15 July is

22 the 21 of July. Do you see this?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in the column 21 July, what I'd like to know is how come you

25 did not sign the column for the officer handing over duty on the 15th?

Page 10616

1 Why did you not sign officer handing over duty? I'm referring to you the

2 15th of July, 4.45. You sign as taking over and you did not sign as

3 officer handing over the duty on the 15th. And I suggest to you,

4 Mr. Galic, that the reason is that, in fact, there was no one to take over

5 the duty from you because you were not sitting in the IKM when you wrote

6 these entries.

7 A. That's not true. I believe that this book was the only one on the

8 ground. In fact, it was only there -- other books were at the command,

9 and it was written up there at the IKM. It certainly wasn't written in

10 the command or anywhere else.

11 Q. If we can go back one page --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a break now, Mr. Bourgon.

13 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: 25 minutes.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We are informed that Mr. McCloskey wishes to

19 address the Chamber in the absence of the witness.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think Mr. Bourgon have been talking about a

21 topic that's come up. We both agree it's -- like for the witness to see

22 the original book, the original IKM book. But I just flipped it open and

23 the page that Mr. Bourgon is challenging is hanging on to the binding by a

24 thread. It's about to come off and before that does come off, I would

25 like it if the Court would take a look at it because if it comes off, it

Page 10617

1 will then be separate from the binding. And I had not anticipated this

2 challenge, I will admit, but we have the book. You can see it. I think

3 it's something you ought to see. It's very unusual but I think it's

4 something worth looking at.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You put us in a very delicate position because if I

6 touch it and the page comes off, it will be my fault. So I don't know who

7 to delegate in this case.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I tried to ask Janet Stewart. I can bring an

9 investigator down as well.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

11 MR. BOURGON: We fully agree, Mr. President. It will be a good

12 thing if you can look at the book very quickly and after that maybe I

13 wouldn't be surprise that you will ask for the book to be given to you and

14 signed over to you at some point to look at it because it's very

15 difficult.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One other thing. How much more time do you require?

17 MR. BOURGON: I can finish today if we don't take too much time to

18 look at this book.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And there are others who may wish to cross-examine

20 this witness, I take it?

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'm not cross-examining him.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Who would like to cross-examine this witness?

23 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, we have no cross-examination at this

24 point.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm asking who would like to, who wishes to,

Page 10618

1 Mr. Petrusic?

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of General Miletic will

3 have a relatively short cross-examination.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And are we to expect a re-examination, too,

5 Mr. McCloskey?

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- all right. Let's bring this notebook or

8 logbook and have a look at it.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's right here. I don't know where you want to

10 see it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's so fragile that if it's moved, that would bring

12 the calamity you --

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think it's a calamity but --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: What page is it?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's the page that says 13 July. If I could show

16 it to you, I think that would be a good thing to do.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Why don't you come forward -- we need to see. Why

18 don't you both come forward and let us see.

19 [Trial Chamber and counsel confer]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you both. I think Madam Usher, you may

21 proceed to bring in the witness. We are waiting for the witness.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't know if you want to go on the record to

23 say what everyone observed about that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I can do that. We were shown in the meantime the

25 logbook. The page of the entry relative to the 13th of July is already

Page 10619

1 loose. The page which contains the entry of the 13th of July is hanging by

2 a thread, as it was put to us, and could come loose, become loose

3 anytime.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, and just the page that

5 on 13 July that's hanging loose is ERN 00760275.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

7 [The witness takes the stand]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Bourgon?

9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Mr. Galic, let's go on so I can finish my cross-examination today.

11 I'd like to go on the -- I will ask the usher to give you the original of

12 the forward command post logbook so that you can put it beside you on the

13 ELMO and look at it. And I will draw your attention to the page which has

14 the number 274.


16 MR. BOURGON: 275.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, the pages are coming loose now. If you are

18 not careful, that page, which is just hanging to the binding by a thread,

19 will come loose. If you can preserve it in its current position, we would

20 appreciate that. The same applies to Madam Usher, if she can follow what

21 I am saying. Yes. All right. Now, we look at the ELMO.


23 Q. If I can get Madam Usher to show the -- this page but to go up so

24 that we can see the beginning of entry number 7, sorry, go down, we can

25 see the beginning of entry number 7, which is the 12th of July. Do you

Page 10620

1 see this, Mr. Galic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in the columns beside where it says "officer taking duty" and

4 "officer handing over duty", there is no one signing in those two

5 columns. If we can just move the book to the left so we can get the next

6 page where we see 13th of July and 14th of July, and if we can move the

7 book down so that we can see the top part, again, please, the --

8 completely down, down and then left, sorry, up and left. I'd like the top

9 of 275 -- no, left. Yes, this. Now, Mr. Galic, you see here that --

10 where we have the top part of page 275, this is the follow-up of day

11 number 12 of July, at least this is what it appears to be. Do you agree

12 with that? It's a follow-up to the officer on duty on the 12th of July?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, what I said to you is that if you look beside, in the columns

15 of handing over duty and giving over duty, you see that someone signed

16 where it says officer handing duty for the 12th of July but there is

17 nobody who signed beside for the entry where you put your writing for the

18 13th of July.

19 Now, my question is the following. It appears by looking at this

20 book that there was no one who took over the duty from the person who was

21 there on the 12th of July. Would you agree with that?

22 A. That is not recorded here.

23 Q. And if we move to the next page, if we turn the page and we go to

24 page 276, flipping the page over, and we look at page 276, now, also, if

25 you look in the book, Mr. Galic, you can look in the original if you want.

Page 10621

1 Maybe that's better for you. If you look at the book where it says 15

2 July and 21 July, it appears that there is no one who took over from you

3 on the 15th of July. Would you agree with that?

4 A. I don't agree that he didn't take it over but it's just not

5 recorded in the book. Duty was certainly taken over, and in the course of

6 the 15th, there was a duty officer at the forward command post and the

7 commanding officer was already on the forward command post on the 15th.

8 Why it wasn't written --

9 Q. Mr. Galic, if there was an officer on duty who came in on the

10 15th, he did not sign where it says officer taking over duty. Do you

11 agree with that?

12 A. On the 15th of July?

13 Q. 15th of July, yes. I'm not sure if I said --

14 A. No. Nobody signed as taking over duty. That's true.

15 Q. Now, I take it that be -- where -- because the box where it says

16 officer handing duty, I take it that because you didn't sign that column,

17 that means that you did not meet the officer who took over duty from you

18 on the 15th. Do you recall meeting someone to hand over duty on the 15th?

19 I'm asking for your memory, not what is in the book.

20 A. I remember, and I've already said so several times, that

21 Major Ljubo Bojanovic took over duty from me. Why he didn't sign for it,

22 why he didn't enter it, I really don't know.

23 Q. Now, I won't get back on your previous interviews but in your

24 interviews and it is my intention to file the statements with the Court,

25 you did not remember who took over duty from you in your second interview.

Page 10622

1 So I just ask that if you know today that Major -- that Major Bojanovic

2 took over duty from you it is because you learned that fact later on and

3 you did not know when you had your second interview. Is that the case?

4 A. I've already asked you to try to understand that I didn't have any

5 documents to remind me, and I couldn't recall the dates and in the same

6 way this time --

7 Q. I have to stop you because I'm talking of the second interview

8 where you were shown the book and you said to the investigator that you

9 did not remember who took over duty from you.

10 Now, I'm going to stop here and move on to my next question, and

11 I'm simply asking you, according to this book, you came on duty the 13th

12 of July and you stayed until the 15th of July. My question is: Did you

13 inquire as to why you were staying on duty so long at the forward command

14 post when the normal shift was 24 hours? Did you complain to anyone about

15 this fact?

16 A. I did not complain. First of all, I had no one to complain to

17 that day. Secondly, I was there only 23 hours on the 13th, in the

18 morning, and from the 14th until 15th, in the morning, that was my normal,

19 regular shift on duty.

20 Q. And we will talk about your regular shift, Mr. Galic. I'd like

21 now to move to page in B/C/S page 10, and in English -- sorry, just in

22 English, page 8 on the e-court and I'd like you, Mr. Galic, to look at the

23 page which bears the number 277. On the left side on the e-court can we

24 move to the next page, 277?

25 Now, Mr. Galic, on this page, 277, would that be your writing?

Page 10623

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So then you were again on duty on the 21st to the 22nd of July,

3 after being on duty on the 15th of July; is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Now, in this case, it appears that you signed in the officer

6 handing over box and that there was in fact someone who was there to take

7 over duty from you on the 23rd and who signed in the right place. Do you

8 see that in the book?

9 A. On the screen, no, but in the notebook, yes, I have seen it.

10 Q. In the notebook, in the original and where we will follow you on

11 the screen and you can look at the original, with the page 277. You see

12 that you signed as officer handing over duty and that someone took that

13 duty over from you. Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If we can come back one page back to page 276? Now, in this case,

16 you did not sign on the 21 of July, there is no signature with this

17 officer whereas you say as officer taking over duty. How come you did not

18 sign in that box where it says officer taking over duty?

19 A. I don't know why I didn't sign.

20 Q. And in your second interview, Mr. Galic, you did not recognise

21 that signature in the box of the officer handing over duty; do you recall

22 that?

23 A. I can't recognise it now either.

24 Q. Now, unless, of course, the officer who signed as the officer

25 handing duty, there is a possibility, of course, that he handed over duty

Page 10624

1 at 21 July in the morning at 6.00. Now, this, of course, would mean that

2 when you wrote the entry on the 22nd July, there was no one to take over

3 duty because you were not at the IKM when you wrote this.

4 A. I don't know how I can explain this. If I'd known that I needed

5 someone to represent me here, I would have asked for it. I really don't

6 know how I can prove to you that I was there at the forward command post.

7 My impression is that you simply are trying to tell me that I wasn't

8 there, that I wasn't in the unit. I don't know. I simply don't know how

9 to behave, nor what to say.

10 Q. I explained to you, Mr. Galic, my purpose is that I believe that

11 your first statement that you gave to the investigator was the right

12 statement, in which you did not remember being on duty. Now, I understand

13 that you're saying that this is your writing in this book and my purpose

14 is simply to jog your memory that you can remember that when you completed

15 those entries, they were not completed on the 13th, 14th and 15th of July.

16 Is that possible, Mr. Galic?

17 A. It is not possible. The entries could be made only on the date

18 indicated here.

19 Q. Now, do you remember telling the investigator during your second

20 interview, that is after you were shown the book on 13 July, that you

21 still did not remember having been on duty on the 22nd of July? Do you

22 remember this?

23 A. Probably I said that because I wasn't shown that date. Please, I

24 appeal to you once again, I cannot remember. I couldn't remember until I

25 was shown the document, the entry for that date. Believe me, I cannot

Page 10625

1 remember all the dates, and that is why I said I don't know, I can't

2 remember. If I could remember I would have said.

3 Q. Let us move on --

4 A. That's for sure.

5 Q. During your second interview you stated that you received the

6 order to go to the forward command post in the evening of the 13th and

7 then that interview you said you were more or less ready because "I was

8 supposed to take my duties sometime in the following days." Do you recall

9 saying that to the investigator?

10 A. Not in so many words.

11 Q. When you testified yesterday, you testified that you were -- I

12 understood from your statement that you were more or less ready, and I

13 don't have the reference unfortunately right now, you testified that you

14 were supposed to be -- that you testified that you were more or less ready

15 and I quote, "Because I was supposed to take my duties sometime in the

16 following days." My understanding when you read your statement that you

17 were referring to the 22nd, but yesterday you said that you were supposed

18 to be on duty on the 14th of July in the morning. Do you recall this?

19 A. Please, I didn't say that like that. According to the schedule, I

20 should have been on duty on the 14th. I never said I was ready, that I

21 had expected, that I was ready to go. I never said that.

22 Q. Okay. I will let the Trial Chamber, when they look at your

23 statement later on. Now, yesterday, you said that you were supposed to be

24 on duty on the 14th. Is this your testimony today, that were you supposed

25 to be on duty on the 14th of July?

Page 10626

1 A. On the 14th of July, according to schedule, yes, and I was on

2 duty.

3 Q. Now, what I'm saying is that this is the first time that you ever

4 say this to anyone, that were you supposed to be on duty on the 14th. So

5 my question now is: Are both the 14th of July and the 22nd of July

6 official dates that you were supposed to be on duty or is there one that

7 you were not supposed to be on duty?

8 A. Those are dates on which I was supposed to be on duty, on the

9 basis of the plan of the duty work at the forward command post. I

10 couldn't have gone there otherwise.

11 Q. Now, if that's the case, you, as the assistant chief of staff for

12 personnel, I'm asking you if you -- because you say you were supposed to

13 be on duty on both the 14th and the 22nd, I say if what you're saying

14 today, how come you did not remember any of this in your first interview,

15 if it's so clear today?

16 A. I remember now, on the basis of the documents shown to me in this

17 institution, with all the information. And that is why in the first

18 interview, I didn't know, and I'm saying again, in this courtroom, that I

19 didn't know when I was on duty anywhere. I don't know whether you can

20 take it against me if I say I don't remember. I didn't know. If I had

21 known there would be no problem. I would say so.

22 Q. What I'd like to suggest to you is that the circumstances you

23 describe in your testimony, that of being woken up at 11.00 or 10.00 at

24 night and being asked to replace someone and taking a car and going to the

25 forward command post, that this is something that, based on your knowledge

Page 10627

1 that you gave to the investigator in your first interview, it is something

2 that you could not have forgotten, if indeed it had taken place.

3 A. In the course of the first interview with the investigator, this

4 was not discussed. I didn't talk to him about that.

5 Q. Now, my case, Mr. Galic, is that you filled in those entries of

6 the 13, 14 and 15, while were you sitting in the Zvornik command. Now,

7 we'll go to this fact together and getting back to the book on duty during

8 your second interview you were asked about this book, I'm talking about

9 the forward command post duty book. Do you recall being asked about a

10 stamp appearing at the end of the book? And I'd like to turn to page 49

11 in B/C/S and 44 in English.

12 A. Yes. But, Your Honours, if I may, the gentleman said that I wrote

13 this report in the brigade command. This is something I cannot accept as

14 an individual, as a human being, and I see that I have no means of proving

15 this. There is no reason for me to lie about anything or to leave

16 anything out. That is part of my personality, and I really appeal to you.

17 I cannot grapple with such things any more, that I had written these

18 things not where I should have but at some other location.

19 Q. Mr. Galic, if you look at the page before you, on the screen, and

20 this is a --

21 A. You asked me about the stamp.

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. On the last page.

24 Q. And you recognise this stamp, which says that the book has 100

25 pages, and you also recognise the signature of Dragan Obrenovic; is that

Page 10628

1 correct?

2 A. As far as I can see, I need to remember everything that happened

3 in Zvornik over a period of five years. Shall I look at the notebook?

4 Q. The only thing I'm asking you to do -- yes, you can look at the

5 notebook indeed. The only thing I'm asking to you do is to remember that

6 the investigator showed you the stamp and that your answer was, although

7 you did not deal very much with the administration of correspondence, it

8 was normal for such logbooks to have this kind of stamp at the end. Do

9 you recall that the investigator showed it to you?

10 A. He showed it to me, yes, but not at the first interview but at the

11 second.

12 Q. Yes, second interview. Now, I suggest to you that you cannot

13 explain, however --?

14 JUDGE KWON: It's on the e-court. I don't think the witness

15 should necessarily see the real book.

16 MR. BOURGON: It's in the real book too.

17 Q. Both are there. You can look at the screen or the notebook or the

18 original, as you wish. There is no need to look at the -- now, what I'd

19 like to say, Mr. Galic, is that you cannot explain however why it says

20 that this book contains 100 pages when in fact no matter how you count the

21 pages, it does not add up to 100. I take it you cannot explain that?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour, that's a misstatement of

23 the evidence.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's a misstatement of the evidence. And these

Page 10629

1 continual personal challenges, could we give him a break and start this up

2 again tomorrow? He's had a very long day and especially if we are going

3 to go on like this.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, how much longer do you have?

6 MR. BOURGON: I can probably finish in 15 minutes but maybe it's

7 better to give the witness a break.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you have belaboured the point repeatedly,

9 and the position of the witness has been constantly -- so I would suggest

10 that you perhaps can now conclude on this part. And then we adjourn and

11 start with something new tomorrow.

12 MR. BOURGON: Well, everything I have --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I address the

14 Court?

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the witness tried to say something.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, Mr. Galic, let me -- it's obvious, pretty

19 obvious, that we are not going to finish today, also because Mr. McCloskey

20 has got a set of questions to put to you and we've only got about ten

21 minutes left so at this point in time, I'm suggesting to you, if you agree

22 to it, that ten minutes, 12 minutes, won't make a difference. We can send

23 you back to your hotel now. You will have a good rest, because tomorrow

24 you're testifying in the morning and not in the afternoon. Would you

25 agree to that?

Page 10630

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I agree, but on the

2 basis of yesterday's hearing and today, I had expected to finish today. I

3 am a sick man with heart problems. I had my medicines up to today. And I

4 don't wish to use anything else. I had hoped to finish today so that I

5 could leave tomorrow and continue my medication. However, my

6 understanding yesterday was that we would be finishing today, but the

7 situation is as it is. Now, whether you care about my health or not, of

8 course, it's up to you to decide what we should do next.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We certainly do care about your health. I want to

10 put your mind at rest, that that tops the list of our concerns in such

11 case. On the other hand, we have a procedure to follow here, and the

12 procedure is such that although you might feel perhaps in your mind

13 persecuted by Mr. Bourgon in putting all these questions to you, it's not

14 the case. The case, the system that we have here, which we like to refer

15 to as the adversarial system, encumbers, burdens, each Defence lawyer with

16 a very heavy task, and that is of trying to elicit from you all the

17 information that he would seek, to require to get from you, with a view to

18 contradicting some of your evidence, some of your previous statements, and

19 also to support the case that the -- each of the Defence teams might have.

20 So I ask you to be patient because this is the system, this is the

21 system. We can't conclude your testimony today. What I suggest is that

22 if the Victims and Witnesses Section can procure the medication for you

23 from your country by the speediest way possible, I wouldn't mention which

24 service, that would be ideal because you would have it early tomorrow. On

25 the other hand, I'm sure that the same medicine can be obtained here under

Page 10631

1 a different brand name, and perhaps that could be arranged too. I'm

2 pretty sure that the -- we have got very qualified persons in the Victims

3 and Witnesses Unit who can help you.

4 Do you understand?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fully. Thank you. I don't need any

6 assistance. I'll bear it out for as long as I can. I hope I won't follow

7 in the footsteps of Bojanic, Maric and others. I will prevail. I will

8 manage.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Please don't. Relax. Go to your hotel and make

10 sure that you rest so that tomorrow you can come here and hopefully finish

11 in good time to enable to you return home the earliest possible.

12 On the other hand, may we again appeal to you, Mr. Bourgon, to

13 please try to bring your cross-examination to an end? There are some

14 points that of course you have every right to task the witness upon, but

15 on the other hand, belabouring the same point over and over again when the

16 position doesn't seem to change could become -- could be misunderstood,

17 let me clarify that.

18 MR. BOURGON: I fully understand, Mr. President. I simply have a

19 few issues to put to the witness. I'm confident I will be able to jog his

20 memory and he will remember differently but those are issues I will do

21 very quickly tomorrow morning. Thank you, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Madam Usher, you can escort the witness.

23 Witness, we'll see you tomorrow morning at 9.00.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 10632

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a short while,

2 please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10633











11 Pages 10633-10634 redacted. Private session















Page 10635

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day of April,

22 2007, at 9.00 a.m.