1 Friday, 27 April 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9:04 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, everybody, and welcome.
7 Madam Usher -- Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ma'am.
11 All the accused are present. From the Defence teams, I notice
12 the absence of Mr. Krgovic and the absence of Mr. Ostojic and Ms. Condon.
13 Mr. Meek, the reason I assume Mr. Stojanovic is busy working
15 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And the same place for Ms. Condon.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Prosecution, I notice Mr. McCloskey; that's
19 it. One against seven or times three.
20 Good morning to you, Mr. Galic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are going to proceed with your
23 testimony this morning, but we are going to do so with the bench
24 consisting of three Judges only. Judge Stole couldn't be with us today,
25 and, therefore, we are in agreement sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis (a).
1 Okay. How are you feeling this morning? Are you better?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A little worse than yesterday, but
3 I'll manage.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We hope to bring your testimony to an end as soon
5 as possible.
6 Mr. Bourgon, you were still in possession. Please go ahead and
7 try to conclude as quickly as you can, please. Avoid repetitions.
8 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 WITNESS: MIHAJLO GALIC
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon (Continued):
11 Q. Good Morning, Mr. Galic. Let me begin by going back to the
12 forward command post Kitovnica operations duty log, and if I can have
13 this on E-court, P347 [Realtime transcript read in error "437"], pages 49
14 in B/C/S and page 44 in English.
15 And that's -- Mr. Galic, this is where we left off yesterday. My
16 first question, which you can answer, is that you recognise the signature
17 of Major Obrenovic, do you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Obrenovic, where he signs, he states and certifies that
20 this notebook contains 100 pages. Now, I counted the pages, and they are
21 less. Can you explain why?
22 A. Neither did I form this notebook, nor did I certify it, nor did I
23 count the pages. So I don't know. And 12 and more years later, I really
24 can't say anything about something that I didn't do, even if I had done
25 it. After so much time, I wouldn't be able to assert whether there were
1 as many pages as is indicated.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic.
3 For the sake of the transcript, the page we're referring to is
4 ERN 00760316. That will be important for the next question.
5 JUDGE KWON: What was the 65 -- 65 ter number?
6 MR. BOURGON: Well, that's the e-court. I said P347.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, 347. That should be corrected, line 24.
8 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Judge.
9 Q. And I'd like to go back now to the previous page, which is, in
10 B/C/S, page 48, and then again to page 47.
11 Is it possible to have the English version side by side?
12 You notice, Mr. Galic, that the last three pages of this book are
13 empty, which on the English side we can see because the ERN numbers are
14 mentioned, where it says that page 0314 is blank, page 0315 is blank, and
15 the statement by Mr. Obrenovic is on 0316.
16 My question is simply: Can you explain why there are three empty
17 pages at the end of this book?
18 A. I don't know how I can explain it. Probably there was no duty
19 being done, it was not filled, and on the last page is the certification
20 of the notebook. If I understand the question, maybe there was no duty
21 being done during that time, but I don't know.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. Let's go back to English, page 6, and
23 B/C/S, page 8. And I draw your attention, Mr. Galic, to the entry which
24 is for 14 July. You have it in your language.
25 MR. BOURGON: If we can scroll up a bit so the 14 July is easier
1 to see for Mr. Galic. Yes.
2 Q. The entry for the 14th, and the second paragraph, where it says:
3 "Enemy forces are very active over the communication lines and
4 are preparing to attack our forces."
5 Do you see that, Mr. Galic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And since you said that this was your writing, do you -- can you
8 explain to us, what does this refer to, this paragraph? What does this
10 A. These are reports from units that were coming in on the basis of
11 the situation in the field, and through the communication means they
12 heard and understood that the enemy was preparing to attack the positions
13 of our units. That is the gist of this entry in the notebook.
14 Q. And would I be right, Mr. Galic, in saying that whoever wrote
15 this, that it was a person at the IKM, and the mention is that they could
16 listen to the enemy forces; is that correct?
17 A. Operations, yes.
18 Q. Now, when we talk about enemy forces, we're talking about the
19 2nd Corps or the column that was approaching; would you agree?
20 A. In this case, that they are 2nd Corps forces preparing to attack
21 our forces.
22 Q. Now, do you know, Mr. Galic, who or what is Premier?
23 A. Now, let me see if I can remember. It is the code name for
24 someone. Now, I can't remember offhand who it is. There were several
25 such code names, so I can't remember exactly who this was.
1 Q. Maybe I'll try and help you by saying that Premier is the person
2 or persons who could -- who had the capability to intercept
3 communications from the enemy. Does that help you out?
4 A. No, I don't know. I didn't come across that, so I'm not familiar
5 with these things.
6 Q. Because what I would like to suggest to you, Mr. Galic, is that
7 the -- at the forward command post, Zvornik Brigade did not have any
8 capability for listening to enemy forces, and I wonder where that
9 information could come from, that second paragraph.
10 A. I said that it was only from the units that this message could
11 have come, and this was noted. If it had come from some other source, it
12 would have to be conveyed to units, if the information came from some
13 other source. So in my opinion, what is written here is what I've just
14 said. I can't remember anything else.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. Let's move on to a different topic,
16 Exhibit 3D118, which is a three-page document in English and in B/C/S.
17 And just before this document comes up, Mr. Galic: Would you agree with
18 me that the battalions of the Zvornik Brigade did not have any capability
19 to listen in to the conversations of the enemy?
20 A. I don't know, but in that period everyone was listening in to
21 everyone else, and everyone had the capability to intercept
22 communications if they had the necessary equipment; not myself, but there
23 were all kinds of listening in and information obtained in various ways.
24 Q. And do you know, Mr. Galic, that Premier -- I understand you told
25 me you don't know that -- what Premier was, but I suggest to you that
1 Premier would only report his or its information to the Zvornik Brigade
2 command and not to the IKM. Is there anything you can comment on this?
3 A. No, I cannot. I don't know that. I can't.
4 Q. I ask you now, Mr. Galic, to look at the document which is before
5 you, which is the first page of a statement you provided in Bijeljina on
6 28th of August, 2003. Do you recognise what is before you? And then
7 we'll move on to the second and the third page so that you can see the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can we move to the next page, please, on both sides? And just on
11 the right side, if we can move to the third page just so that we can see
12 the date, and then we don't need to move the English, which also has the
14 Do you recall, Mr. Galic, giving this statement?
15 A. Yes, that was on this date in the afternoon and the evening, I
17 Q. And do you remember the date as being 28 August 2003?
18 A. To judge by this document, yes, that is the date.
19 Q. And is this your handwriting, Mr. Galic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If I can refer you back to page 2, so English we don't need to
22 change, but just page 2. Now, this interview took place on 28 August
23 2003, which is after the second interview you had with the Prosecution.
24 My question is: Is there a reason why you stated that you were on duty
25 at the forward command post on the 14th of July, but you did not say
1 anything about being on duty on the 13th of July or the 15th of July?
2 A. I said that I was on duty on the 14th. That's what I said. As
3 for the rest --
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. We will move on to a different topic, and
5 that is the discussion you had with the lawyers of Major Obrenovic. And
6 first I would like you to confirm, because it's not clear from the
7 transcript of your response two days ago, and I quote the reference then
8 was at page 73, lines 17 to 25, and line [sic] 74, lines 11 to 15. I
9 asked you a question, and then the presiding Judge also asked you a
10 question, but I'm not sure it was clear that you did meet with the
11 lawyers of Obrenovic 1 to 1.5 months before your second interview with
12 the Prosecution.
13 A. I said that I had met with them at their request, but not in the
14 way in which you describe those people had arrived. That was what I
15 reacted to. It wasn't in the way you said. They simply came to see me,
16 like any other normal people.
17 Q. Now, what I'm interested in at this time, Mr. Galic, is not the
18 manner but rather that it was one month to 1.5 months before your second
19 interview, which is what you stated during the interview. I'm talking
20 about the second interview with the Prosecution.
21 A. Yes, I understood that you asked me whether I had spoken to the
22 Defence of Mr. Obrenovic.
23 Q. Just to make it clear, when was this, before or after your second
24 interview with the Prosecution?
25 A. I think it was before the second interview, but one should look
1 at the documents and the dates. I can't remember the dates. There must
2 be a record somewhere which we can look at?
3 Q. There is indeed a record. I'm just asking you if you recall.
4 And my second question is: Do you recall that when you were initially
5 asked --
6 A. No, I don't.
7 MR. BOURGON: If we can have on the e-court, please, the second
8 interview, which is document 3D116, and I would like to have B/C/S
9 page 53 and English page 29. Side by side, if that is possible. In the
10 English side, I refer the Trial Chamber to lines 23 and 24, where it
11 states -- the question was asked to Mr. Galic -- the question was ...
12 Q. Do you have it before you, Mr. Galic, on the right side, where
13 you have the question which was put to you -- the question was at line
14 23 -- I'm sorry, for the English version, it's page 29 and not 30.
15 JUDGE KWON: We have it in English, and let's make sure that the
16 witness has the B/C/S. I'm not quite sure whether he has it.
17 MR. BOURGON:
18 Q. Can you see the question which was asked of you:
19 "Have you spoken to any of the lawyers of the men detained in The
20 Hague for the Srebrenica execution?"
21 And your answer was:
22 "No, although there are quite a few things that remain unclear to
24 Can you see this in your language, Mr. Galic?
25 A. [No verbal response].
1 Q. We'll move on to a different topic.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it was on the screen in the -- I have
3 been trying using as a beacon the word "security." Yeah, okay, where I
4 take it he can -- he can see it now, I suppose.
5 Yeah. Now, it's -- you leave it where it is, it's one, two,
6 three, four, five. The fifth paragraph from the top of the screen. The
7 interpreter, [B/C/S spoken], et cetera.
8 Can you see it now, Mr. Galic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 MR. BOURGON: If we can move to the next page, in the English
12 Q. Now, in this document, Mr. Galic, it says here whether you had --
13 the lawyers of Lieutenant-Colonel Obrenovic, "and they insisted on having
14 a discussion with me and they spoke with me."
15 And the question was:
16 "When was this?"
17 "I don't know the exact date, but it was a month or a month and a
18 half ago."
19 JUDGE KWON: It should be the previous page in B/C/S. It's here.
20 Oh, thank you, yes.
21 MR. BOURGON:
22 Q. At the top part, Mr. Galic, where it says -- or I can see it
24 "I don't know the exact date. It was a month or a month and a
25 half ago, and they insisted."
1 Now, how did they insist in meeting you?
2 A. They asked, as I said, that -- they talked to me, since I was an
3 officer in the brigade command, and they wanted to talk to me in
4 connection with the defence of Mr. Obrenovic.
5 MR. BOURGON: Thank you. We'll move on to the last part of my
6 cross-examination and, Mr. President, I would like to go into closed
7 session, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Private or closed? Private? Let's go into private
9 session, please.
10 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open.
21 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, we are now in open session.
23 MR. BOURGON:
24 Q. Mr. Galic, I just mentioned to you five names, and according to
25 these people you were not at the forward command post when they were
1 there. More specifically, according to one of them, Drago Nikolic was
2 there at the forward command post all day on the 13th and until the 14th
3 of July in the morning.
4 My question is: Does that help you remember the events as they
5 unfolded in July of 1995?
6 A. No.
7 MR. BOURGON: I'll move to my next question, and I need to go
8 back into private session.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go back to private session for a short
11 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 MR. BOURGON:
22 Q. Mr. Galic, according to this person, you actually had a meeting
23 with this person to discuss what he had said concerning the presence of
24 Drago Nikolic at the forward command post on the 13th and 14th. Do you
25 recall having this conversation with (redacted)
1 A. I never discussed that question or other matters with him.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: First you ask us to go into private session so that
3 you keep his name, and then you mention his name yourself, so let's
5 MR. BOURGON: My mistake, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay, it happens, but we waste time like
7 that. So in -- on page 13, line 3, please, delete the name of the
8 individual, and you don't need to delete anything else. Okay.
9 MR. BOURGON: If we can go back into private session,
10 Mr. President, please.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go back to private session for a short
12 while, please.
13 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
6 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Galic, I mentioned the name of an individual, and
8 according to this person, Drago Nikolic was picked up from the forward
9 command post in the morning of 14 July in order to go to the Zvornik
10 Brigade command. And according to this person, that person himself
11 returned to the forward command post later that day.
12 My question is: Does that help you remember the events of July
13 1995 as they unfolded?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And my last question: During your testimony, reference was made
16 to the fact that we met before, "we" being representatives or those
17 representing Drago Nikolic. Can you confirm that this meeting took place
18 in November of 2005?
19 A. The meeting, yes, but I do not remember the exact date.
20 Q. And would I be right in saying that nothing much was discussed at
21 that meeting because it was only a preliminary meeting; do you recall
23 A. We talked about a series of questions, you and your associates.
24 There -- I don't have any written record of that conversation or
25 interview, so I really don't know. I know that you were there, I know
1 that we did discuss certain matters. I don't remember the exact date.
2 That's all that I can say.
3 Q. And can you confirm that for reasons unknown to us, you refused
4 to meet us thereafter?
5 A. I did not refuse, but the lady who contacted me, I told her that
6 I was travelling that day with my family to my wife's birthplace. I
7 don't know if you remember that, but I do remember it. I would have
8 talked at any other time that I was free with anyone.
9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Mr. Galic. I have no further
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
12 So now, Mr. Meek, yesterday you confirmed that you had no
13 cross-examination. Is that -- is that still your position?
14 MR. MEEK: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
16 Mr. Lazarevic.
17 MR. LAZEROVIC: We have no cross-examination for the witness, as
18 we indicated earlier.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?
20 MR. HAYNES: I can confirm that, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 So it's just you, Mr. Petrusic. Go ahead.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Galic, I only have a few
25 questions. I represent the Defence of General Miletic.
1 Q. I would like to ask you if in the course of your duties at the
2 Zvornik Brigade, you required the cooperation of the Main Staff?
3 A. I had no need for cooperation. I, myself, didn't need that,
4 because that would have been skipping over my two command levels in order
5 to contact them. I didn't even have the opportunity to do that. I would
6 have liked to go and meet the people there, but I did not.
7 Q. Your communication ended at the level of the Drina Corps; could
8 we put it like that?
9 A. Yes. I went up to the chief of the section for personnel
10 affairs. I don't remember the exact name of the person, but it had to do
11 with certain activities and tasks of that organ, if something was
12 unclear, but everything else was done within the brigade.
13 Q. The assistant commander for personnel affairs, for organisation,
14 mobilisation and personnel affairs in the Drina Corps was Colonel Jovicic
15 [Realtime transcript read in error "Jovetic"], does that ring a bell?
16 A. Colonel what?
17 Q. Colonel Jovicic.
18 A. He was on that duty first. After that, the post was occupied by
19 Lieutenant-Colonel. He went to that establishment post from the Bratunac
20 Brigade command, and he was the assistant commander for that section. At
21 the moment, I cannot recall his name, but we had a lot of contacts during
22 meetings, during briefings that we were invited to. I really cannot
23 remember his name. Before him, it was Lieutenant-Colonel Jovicic.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: That means we need to correct line 21 in the
25 transcript, because we have Colonel Jovetic, and it should be
1 Colonel Jovicic, and the witness did mention his successor at least by
2 his surname, but it doesn't show up in the transcript.
3 Who succeeded Major Jovicic -- oh, not Major, Lieutenant Colonel
4 Jovicic? Who succeeded him?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recall the name.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. If he cannot recall the name, that's it.
7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. At this point, Witness, this is not so important, but I would
9 like to put it to you that in July 1995, the assistant commander for
10 organisation, mobilisation and personnel affairs in the Drina Corps was
11 Colonel Radenko Jovicic, but as I said, at this point in time perhaps
12 this is not so important.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak up?
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I would just like you to confirm the level at which you
16 cooperated was the level of the Drina Corps?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Galic, on the 2nd of July, 1995, the command of the Drina
19 Corps issued an order that the Zvornik Brigade should allocate a brigade,
20 the equivalent of a battalion -- a unit, the equivalent of a battalion,
21 and send it to the Srebrenica region. Do you know anything about that?
22 A. I know about that order, but according to the order I was not
23 engaged or included in any activity pursuant to it.
24 Q. So you know about the order when it arrived at the command?
25 A. I don't know when it arrived, but I know about the order on the
1 basis of which later tasks were carried out.
2 Q. After the unit went into the field, into the Srebrenica region,
3 did you receive any kind of instructions from your command or the Chief
4 of Staff in order to replenish the unit of the Zvornik Brigade, since a
5 considerable, elite part of it was going to a different front?
6 A. No.
7 Q. If it was necessary to mobilise personnel to a limited extent to
8 replenish the ranks, who would issue such an order?
9 A. The brigade command asked for permission from the Drina Corps
10 command, and based on that approval and the order, the activity was
11 carried out in relation to mobilisation of the reserve battalion and
12 their further deployment.
13 Q. Would the same procedure apply in the case of a general
14 mobilisation in the Zvornik territory?
15 A. As for the general mobilisation, I really cannot recall the legal
16 provisions, but I think when we are talking about general mobilisation, a
17 completely different procedure is employed in a particular municipality
18 or in the entire republic.
19 Q. We know, from the roster of attendance of senior officers, that
20 you were absent on the 12th of July, the 12th, the 14th and the 15th of
21 July. Was there a need then to engage certain materiel and equipment,
22 and in that case, in the event of the absence of the commander, Colonel
23 Pandurevic, would Dragan Obrenovic then issue an order to you or to your
24 deputy to engage or provide this materiel and equipment?
25 A. Yes. If the commander was not there, then this task would be
1 carried out by his deputy, as regulated by establishment and other
3 Q. We also know that on the 12th of July, there was a need to engage
4 a certain number of vehicles at the level of your brigade and also at the
5 level of the Zvornik Municipality. Did Dragan Obrenovic issue an order
6 to utilise these vehicles at the level of the brigade?
7 A. Yesterday, you could see that there is nothing mentioned anywhere
8 which would indicate that these activities proceeded in the organisation
9 and according to the order of the commander or the deputy of the Zvornik
10 Brigade. This was ordered by completely different institutions and
11 organs, so this does not apply to the Zvornik Brigade. Thus, the answer
12 to your question would be, no, there were no activities or any orders
13 undertaken by Mr. Obrenovic in that sense, referring to what you were
14 just asking.
15 Q. So in order to utilise buses on the 12th of July, the order was
16 issued by the Defence Ministry sector in Zvornik?
17 A. Please don't ask me about the documents I had in front of me
18 yesterday, because now I would need to look at them again in order to
19 confirm that. I confirmed yesterday that it was the -- a department of
20 the Defence Ministry, I don't remember how many sections were mentioned,
21 and this was also done by the Secretariat of the Defence Ministry. I'm
22 just speaking off the top of my head. I cannot recall the specific
23 information that I read out from the monitor yesterday.
24 Q. The Secretariat of the Defence Ministry is a civilian organ?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
2 questions for this witness.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Petrusic.
4 Mr. Haynes.
5 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I don't have any further questions of this
6 witness, but I thought it was an appropriate moment to deal with a small
7 housekeeping matter before he faced re-examination.
8 You'll recall that yesterday I asked him to look at a hard copy
9 highlighted document, and after we had finished in court, we were in
10 discussion with the court management about how best to use that as an
11 exhibit, and it was decided that the best way to do it was to re-mark it
12 with asterisks so that they would show up on the screen and then put it
13 into e-court, and that is what we did.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
15 MR. HAYNES: But the point is that in going through that process,
16 we discovered that we had miscounted, and the figure I should have put to
17 him was 23 dead, 20 on the 16th, and I thought it appropriate to raise it
18 now lest he be cross -- or re-examined on the point that's our fault, not
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yesterday I recall we're talking of the document
21 which lists the dead in Baljkovica.
22 MR. HAYNES: That's the one, yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And in the transcript yesterday, we'll check it,
24 you will find three on the 15th --
25 MR. HAYNES: Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and 19 on the 16th?
2 MR. HAYNES: Yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And you want to correct that?
4 MR. HAYNES: Three on the 15th; 20 on the 16th.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: 20 on the 16th, okay. Thank you.
6 Mr. McCloskey, I understand you have a re-examination?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and I believe it should be hopefully very
8 brief, but ...
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
10 Keep in mind the state of health of the witness.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
12 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Galic. On the last topic of the -- the list, I
14 won't spend much time on this, but the list of the -- the dead, if we
15 were to look and give credit to the men that died on -- in that area
16 during the 15th and 16th, would it be fair to include the areas not just
17 of Baljkovica but of Parlog, Mevici Brezik, Crni Vrh, Kijici and Snagovo?
18 A. People who were killed in that area in Baljkovica, Crni Vrh and
19 the immediate vicinity, yes, but Kijici are not in the area of the
20 Zvornik Municipality, I think that belongs to either Bratunac or Milici,
21 to either of those municipalities, I'm not sure, but it's not in the --
22 or it's not part of the Zvornik Municipality.
23 Q. Thanks for that correction. And are you aware of how many young
24 Serbian MUP soldiers died in that time period in that area?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And did the list that we saw of the dead include the missing?
2 A. No. The list of those killed that we looked at yesterday is just
3 the list of those killed. It's not a list including the missing or the
4 wounded, either likely or seriously wounded. It's just a list of those
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. McCloskey, just the previous question of yours,
7 "young Serbian MUP soldiers," who do you refer to?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm referring to the special police brigade
9 battalion that were there, the members of the CSB Zvorniks that were
10 there. I -- it's something I have not looked into fully, but I know they
11 were there and they were fighting.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Kwon.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could go briefly back to the
15 duty officer notebook, and that has been numbered -- for 13 July, it's
16 number 377, and it's on the B/C/S, it is 5743. It's page 125 of the
17 B/C/S and page 6 of the English.
18 Q. If you could take a look at the top of the page, I think we went
19 over this briefly, and I'll read out the English, and it will be coming
20 soon, but it says:
21 "The 5th Infantry Battalion. Combat readiness raised to the
22 highest level. Couriers have been dispatched in order to mobilise all
23 men and send them to their units."
24 Do you get involved in the mobilisation at that level or is that
25 a different level from you?
1 A. This is not a mobilisation of new men. People would stay in the
2 unit for a specific period of time, seven days or fifteen days. They
3 would be at the positions, and then after that they would spend a certain
4 period of time at home, resting. So some people were at the position,
5 some were at home, resting. So probably the commander of the
6 5th Battalion sent his courier to bring all the people who were resting
7 back to the unit. So this is not a mobilisation of new personnel. The
8 commands would work for themselves in accordance with a
9 previously-established order or according to previously-issued orders.
10 Q. All right, thank you. And can we go to a Defence exhibit, 7D99.
11 This is a 14 July 1995 document, and could you just read it briefly again
12 so we see the gist -- or we see what it's about, just the part that stops
13 with "Za," just the three lines?
14 A. "In order to secure the medical centre, Zvornik, carry out
15 mobilisation of seven conscripts, the mobilisation is to be carried out
16 immediately. Chief of the personnel affairs sector, Mihajlo Galic."
17 Q. Now, can we go to the -- the stamp and signature? Again, I think
18 you've dealt with this, but I wanted to -- I wanted to get a little more
19 detail on you. We see the stamp, and it's covering up some -- some
20 letters. Can you tell us what those letters are? It looks like a "PNN"
21 and an "S" with a -- or "Sh."
22 A. "Sh."
23 Q. What does that mean?
24 A. It's a stamp of the military post.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the number.
1 A. And then there is the typed signature, chief of the sector for
2 personnel and replenishment, Major Mihajlo Galic, so this was not
3 actually signed by me but somebody -- but by somebody else in my name.
4 Q. Okay. Can you -- what does, and this will sound funny in the
5 translation, but what does "Za PPP" mean?
6 A. The "P" stands for Pomocnik [phoen] "assist deputy," for deputy.
7 Because at that -- actually, I was not there that day.
8 Q. So sometimes when an officer is not there, his subordinates can
9 sign for him by putting "Za" and then his name, like in this case?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So on the 14th of July, just tell us again where you were when
12 your subordinates were doing this business?
13 A. I was on duty at the forward command post.
14 Q. Okay. I'm just going to spend a little bit of time on this topic
15 to try to see if we can clarify some of this. Is it a serious thing when
16 you're told to go to the forward command post to take an unscheduled
18 A. Each assignment that I carried out, including serious tasks, I
19 took them very seriously. I did not distinguish between easier or more
20 difficult tasks, but approached each one with the same amount of
22 Q. Would you be in serious trouble if you refused to follow that
23 order to go to the IKM that night?
24 A. Indeed, I would be in serious trouble, and I would probably be
25 called to task and -- for failure to observe discipline by the superior
2 Q. If you'd gone to that post that night and left your post
3 unauthorisedly, would you also be in serious trouble?
4 A. If I didn't receive an appropriate order and I do that on my own
5 accord, yes, I would be in very serious trouble and I would have to be
6 held responsible.
7 Q. Is it ever appropriate to take the IKM logbook away from the
9 A. I don't quite understand. Take it where? Could you clarify,
11 Q. We don't know, but take it away from the IKM back somewhere away
12 from the IKM on the, let's say, the 14th and 15th of July, in the middle
13 of very tense hostilities?
14 A. That logbook could not be removed from that location because it
15 couldn't even be taken to the observation tower. It was always at the
16 forward command post.
17 Q. Is that a book that the, for example, the commander or the deputy
18 commander needs to rely on when he shows up there to determine what might
19 have happened during the days that preceded him?
20 A. If there are certain entries which are important, it is up to the
21 commander and the Chief of Staff to judge and to see what is of interest
22 to them, what they wish to use and what they need for their work. So I
23 don't know quite how to answer. Whatever he needs, he looks for and he
24 familiarises himself with those entries.
25 Q. Would it be a serious offence to put false entries in that book?
1 A. I think that will be absolutely inappropriate, and it wouldn't
2 serve anyone's interests. I don't see why anyone would put down
3 something that was not true, something that he hadn't seen or experienced
4 at that point in time at that location. I don't see why anyone would do
5 that, myself or anyone else.
6 Q. Can you imagine Drago Nikolic putting up for one minute a false
7 entry putting him at a place or giving him a duty that was not true?
8 A. Knowing Drago Nikolic as a highly-professional soldier and a
9 responsible individual, I don't think he would ever put down something
10 that wasn't true and that isn't a true and real fact.
11 Q. Would he let you get away with doing that, either, especially if
12 it involved him?
13 A. Absolutely not, in view of the opinion I have of him and I have
14 already said, that he was a real professional and he wouldn't get -- let
15 anyone get away with such a thing, not just me but anyone else, to put
16 down an untruth in a document that has some lasting value.
17 Q. Let me go to just a couple of documents on a topic that
18 Mr. Petrusic had asked you about. The first one is a Drina Corps
19 document; that is, 65 ter 871 that I just had in front of me. And if we
20 could bring that up in both languages. But I will start -- well, there
21 you can make out that small print. If we could get the -- the English,
22 but I'll start to read a bit of the English while we're waiting.
23 This is something on the date of 12 July from the command of the
24 Drina Corps, from Commander Zivanovic on the 12th called "The Provision
25 of Buses for Evacuation From Srebrenica Enclave," and it's an order to
1 the Zvornik Brigade, among others. And you can take a look at it, but
2 it -- it basically is asking for available buses and to be sent -- to
3 procure them and to send them to Bratunac.
4 Now, I think from the roster, you may not have been there on the
5 12th, but do you remember this -- this order coming in from the -- from
6 the Corps?
7 A. No, nor do I remember, nor did I ever see this order.
8 Q. All right. If we could go to another one. It's the Zvornik
9 Brigade document related to this, 12 July, 65 ter number 322, and if we
10 could put both the B/C/S and the English on the -- on this. There's the
11 B/C/S. If you could try to make out as best you can on that?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not very clear, Mr. McCloskey. I think
13 instead of having a split scene -- split screen, why don't we concentrate
14 on the Serbo-Croat one, and we can follow from our screens then the
15 English version. It's still not very clear, and for someone who knows
16 the language, it could be understandable, but --
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. We'll do that.
18 Q. Take your time and take a look at this. And when the English
19 comes up on my screen, I'll ...
20 Okay. This is a -- as you can see, it's a regular combat report
21 to the Drina Corps from the Zvornik Brigade, which you talked about those
22 reports a bit, and there's a note in it that says, in that second
24 "We sent to Bratunac, pursuant to your order, eight buses from
25 Drinatrans, two buses from the military post and four of our trucks."
1 Did you or your office get involved in that mobilisation?
2 A. No, we didn't. I wasn't in the office that day, nor in command.
3 I had a day off. I was at home.
4 Q. You've talked quite a bit about the mobilisation process, but
5 there's a process by which when the army needs something in an emergency
6 or a combat situation, that they can get it; isn't that right?
7 A. That is right, in accordance with the procedure that I described
8 yesterday. That is stipulated by law.
9 Q. Those buses that sent -- were sent to Bratunac, those didn't go
10 through your office, those were procured in some manner, I take it?
11 A. Not through the department I worked in or the command of the
12 Zvornik Brigade. None of that went through those institutions.
13 Q. Can we see the signature line on the bottom of this report?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think he can see it on the screen as it is
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, we need to switch to the next page.
17 Q. And that's under the name of Commander Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko
18 Pandurevic, and as you saw from paragraph 2, it said "we sent." So it's
19 pretty clear the Zvornik Brigade had some involvement in -- in following
20 the Drina Corps order that we had seen before; isn't that right?
21 A. I don't know whether you are right. I know that there was no
22 participation. Now, whether someone ordered someone else to send so many
23 buses, I don't know. As for the signature here, I don't see how anyone
24 could have signed this when this man, the signatory, was not in Zvornik,
25 according to the best of my recollection at the time. It's not logical
1 to me.
2 Q. If you would have received an order from Vinko Pandurevic from
3 Zepa, would you have followed it?
4 A. If I had received an order, Vinko Pandurevic had his deputy at
5 the time who would stand in for him, and it would be logical for him to
6 relay that order to me, and I would act upon it. I would have to do that
7 because he was my superior officer. So I would have to carry out all
8 assignments given to me by my superior, the Chief of Staff, or the
9 commander. I would do it unless it was something that is prohibited by
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, those two letters in front of the
12 name "Vinko Pandurevic," what are they, "MOMD"? What do they represent?
13 I mean, the witness can perhaps help us.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
15 Q. Witness, can you help the Court? We see the word "Commander,"
16 and then --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Lieutenant-Colonel.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. -- "Lieutenant-Colonel." Can you tell us what the next Cyrillic
20 letters mean? We also see "Vinko Pandurevic," but can you tell us what
21 the two letters before that are for us --
22 A. In front of in the first and last name?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. It is a title which Mr. Pandurevic had. He was a Master of
25 Sociology, sociological sciences, MA.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: It was there, and I didn't know whether it was some
2 kind of another "Za," someone standing in for him, so I needed to make
3 that clear.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey, and thank you, witness.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. If you got an order directly from Vinko Pandurevic from Zepa over
8 the phone, would you have followed it?
9 A. I would follow the order if the order was addressed to me and my
11 Q. Why is that?
12 A. These are all assumptions, of course. If he failed to get in
13 touch with the Chief of Staff, who stands in for him, and if I was the
14 operations officer on duty, he could tell me to do such-and-such, give me
15 such an order.
16 However, in that period of time, Vinko Pandurevic did not issue
17 any orders to me, and all the activities that may have related to me
18 linked to the replenishment of units and things like that were not
19 addressed to me, and in that period of time I had no contact with him on
20 any issue.
21 Q. While he was away, was he still the commander of the Zvornik
23 A. If he's away, the corps command, I think that is their
24 responsibility, would in writing order that the brigade commander should
25 be represented by the Chief of Staff. I know this because there were
1 several occasions when the commander was absent, and there were some
2 orders that arrived and that reached me, others didn't, so the rule and
3 the procedure is as I have said.
4 Q. I understand that, but if Dragan Obrenovic is acting as deputy
5 commander of the brigade in the absence of his commander, is the
6 commander, Vinko Pandurevic, still in command of the Zvornik Brigade?
7 A. In actual fact, but that is my personal opinion, he's not the
8 commander, he is replaced by his deputy who has all the authorisations of
9 the commander, because if Mr. Pandurevic is engaged for a certain period
10 of time or if this applies to any other commander, and if he's away, tens
11 of kilometres away from the territory of Zvornik Municipality, it is only
12 logical that in that period of time he would be replaced by his deputy.
13 This also applies during leave, medical treatment, et cetera. As an
14 example, I can say that in the absence of the Chief of Staff, the
15 Deputy Chief of Staff replaces him on the basis of an appropriate order.
16 I don't know whether I have managed to answer your question.
17 Q. Well, I don't think we'll get in a debate about it, but I'll ask
18 you one more question on it. Do you think you could be getting confused
19 with the title of acting commander when the corps or the brigade
20 commander actually designates the deputy commander --
21 MR. HAYNES: I'm going to object. He's cross-examining his own
22 witness here. I think the question is asked and answered. He should ask
23 open questions to this man who he called as his own witness.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. McCloskey?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think Mr. Galic and I are having a perfectly
1 reasonable --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Exchange.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- exchange on a topic that was brought up. I
4 don't see any problem or any need to cross-examine him.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. McCloskey, but, please, you're very
6 near the borderline, according to us, very near the borderline. As long
7 as you seek a clarification from the witness, okay, go ahead, proceed,
8 but please don't try to go beyond that.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. Can you distinguish, in military terms -- have you been trained
11 on the difference between the deputy commander and the acting commander
12 in the absence of a commander?
13 A. No, not fully. What I am saying, I'm saying on the basis of my
14 own personal experience.
15 Q. All right. Just another question or two on emergency
17 If a battalion command post was overrun by the enemy, would you
18 expect the Zvornik Brigade to have to go through some kind of a
19 mobilisation process to take over a house to replace the overrun command
21 A. With one's own forces, the situation would be regulated along the
22 defence lines. It is quite logical that the command post will have to be
23 relocated to a place that is more suited for the work of the people in
24 the battalion command, so that they might successfully have control over
25 all activities taking place along the line or region of defence assigned
1 to that battalion.
2 Therefore, if you're referring to the 4th Battalion, as far as I
3 can remember, their command place was burned down and they were
4 relocated. I wasn't there in the field, I don't know, but later I learnt
5 that it was moved to another location, and it took time and resources for
6 it to be fortified so as to be suitable for use for what it was intended
8 Q. Okay. But my question is, in particular: Before the commander
9 and his soldiers can go into that building and start using it as a
10 command post, do they have to go through some mobilisation process in the
11 middle of combat, or can they just go into that building and take it over
12 and start operations?
13 A. I don't understand. It's not a building. It can be a trench, a
14 bunker made from logs, planks, et cetera, and the command does it with
15 its own personnel without any kind of additional mobilisation. They do
16 that. They provide shelter for themselves, to be able to seek shelter
17 from any attack or climatic changes. They do that, themselves. Their
18 own unit does it. No one else does it for them.
19 If the need should arise for certain concrete or construction
20 elements, then that is something else. Then if it is a trench or a
21 container that can be secured, but it is adjusted to the needs of that
23 Q. If the need should arise at the same time for a shelter to put in
24 prisoners, would the command, on its -- as you've described it, be able
25 to do that as well without going through some sort of mobilisation
2 A. I would kindly ask you to clarify the question, because I'm not
3 sure I understood it.
4 Q. Well, if in a situation the Zvornik Brigade takes prisoners in
5 the field, can they take over a local house to put those prisoners in
6 without going through some mobilisation process?
7 A. In the field, whatever we used was mobilised. When the forward
8 command post was being relocated, there was no mobilisation. I'm not
9 aware of any kind of mobilisation, nor of any house being used, because
10 there weren't any such houses in that area, especially as in the
11 surroundings of the command post all the buildings had been destroyed and
13 Q. Do you know what building or facility was used to replace the
14 command post of the 4th Battalion after it was overrun?
15 A. The command post was not overrun, it was simply burned down, and
16 it was relocated. I went there much later. I think it was some sort of
17 a container, and then there were logs and trees used to build something.
18 I really don't remember the details.
19 Q. Do you recall the school at Orahovac being used temporarily after
20 the 4th Battalion command was burned down?
21 A. No, I don't know that, nor was that facility mobilised.
22 Q. Not by you?
23 A. No.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. Galic, thank you very much for your patience
25 and all your time.
1 I don't have any further questions, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you so much, Mr. McCloskey.
3 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
4 MR. BOURGON: Can we move into private session, Mr. President,
6 JUDGE AGIUS: In the presence of the --
7 MR. BOURGON: Yes, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move into private session.
9 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Galic, your testimony ends here. On behalf of
19 the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over to give
20 testimony and also wish you a safe journey back home.
21 Before you leave this courtroom, however, I enjoin the Victims
22 and Witnesses Unit to give the witness all the attention that he
23 requires, medical and otherwise. Make sure that he is comfortable,
24 pending his transfer to where he resides.
25 Okay, thank you.
1 And we'll have a break now of 25 minutes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.
4 Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11:04 a.m.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Witness.
9 We will -- before you start giving evidence, we need to process
10 the filing of the tendering of documents from the previous witness. You
11 don't need to follow because it doesn't concern you.
12 Yes, Mr. --
13 MR. HAYNES: I'm in your hands as to whether we do that now, but
14 I was just in discussion with your clerk, and I was going to set out, in
15 a spreadsheet form, the documents I wish to tender, which I haven't done
16 yet, I confess, and I wondered whether --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We can postpone it.
18 MR. HAYNES: -- we can postpone it, and then it will be more
19 straightforward later.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. Thank you, Mr. Haynes.
21 Before the witness starts giving evidence, there's just a
22 formality that we need to address.
23 You will recall that on the 30th of March, 2007, the Prosecution
24 filed a confidential Prosecution motion for leave to amend witness list
25 by adding this witness as a 92 ter witness and for protective measures
1 filed -- and for protective measures. Basically, in it the Prosecution
2 sought the amendment of the 65 ter list to include this witness,
3 permission for his appearance, testimony and protective measures.
4 I wasn't here on the last session of the sitting of the 4th April, but
5 having checked the minutes of that sitting, the motion was not opposed by
6 the Defence, and it was granted orally by our colleague, Judge Kwon, in
7 the course of that sitting.
8 The only thing that remains to be done is that if you are
9 offering him as a 92 ter witness, you haven't specifically asked for that
10 as yet. So you asked for his inclusion in the 65 ter list, but the
11 question of whether he's been accepted as a 92 ter witness has still not
12 yet been decided.
13 Do I take it that there are no objections for having this witness
14 testify as a 92 ter witness from any of the Defence teams?
15 I hear no objections, so he can testify as a 92 ter witness. All
17 Now, good morning once more to you, Witness, and on behalf of my
18 colleagues, Judge Kwon and Judge Prost and Judge Stole, in his absence, I
19 would like to welcome you.
20 You are about to start giving evidence. Before you do so, our
21 rules require that you make a solemn declaration that in the course of
22 your testimony you will be testifying the truth. So could I kindly ask
23 you to stand up, please, and read the text of the solemn declaration that
24 is being handed to you now, and that will be your solemn undertaking with
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-166
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please take a seat.
5 The witness has a pseudonym and facial distortion.
6 MS. SOLJAN: Yes, Your Honours. If Madam Usher could just
7 provide assistance in providing the witness with what has been marked for
8 identification as P02775.
9 Examination by Ms. Soljan:
10 Q. Now, Witness, please take a look at this piece of paper, and then
11 tell us whether your name is on it, without actually saying your name out
13 A. Yes, that is my name.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see it. Can you show it to the Defence or
15 some of the Defence teams, anyone who wishes to see it.
16 I thank you. That will be entered in the records as an exhibit
17 and it will remain under seal. We'll give it a number later on.
18 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Soljan.
20 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you.
21 Q. Sir, do you recall providing a statement to the Office of the
22 Prosecutor on the 20th of April, as well as the 26th of April of this
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And was the statements at these times truthful?
1 A. Yes, it was.
2 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read your statement before you
3 came here today?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Did you have an opportunity to correct it prior to signing it?
6 A. I did have the opportunity to read it, and I abide by it.
7 Q. Are you satisfied that the statement that you read is true,
8 accurate and correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if you were asked the same questions again, would your
11 answers be the same?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you, sir.
14 I will now read a short summary of the statement:
15 "The witness is a Bosnian Muslim. He has been a Ham radio
16 operator since 1986 and learned how to use various types of radio
17 communications equipment prior to his mobilisation into the Army of
19 "In late 1992, he was drafted into the Anti-Electronic Warfare
20 Unit attached to the 215th Brigade of the BiH Army. In early 1995, he
21 was sent to work as an intercept operator at the northern facility, and
22 he stayed in this location until late 1995, when he was demobilised.
23 "The witness's work practice followed the established procedure
24 of scanning, recording and transcribing intercepts into notebooks.
25 Normal practice was to work in eight-hour shifts, followed by a longer
1 break. The soldiers present were divided into two alternating groups,
2 each of whom would be working in seven-day shift rotations.
3 "The witness recognised his handwriting when shown the intercept
4 dated 28 October 1995 at 11.20 hours at ERN 0078-5647 to 0078-5648, and
5 confirms that he transcribed this intercept."
6 This ends the summary of the statement, which, for the record, is
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.
9 MS. SOLJAN:
10 Q. And, sir, I just have a follow-up question for you, and that is:
11 Have you had a chance to review the intercept in this original notebook?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. And did you confirm at that time that it was your original
14 handwriting or your own handwriting?
15 A. Yes, it's my handwriting.
16 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you very much. I have no more questions.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Soljan.
18 On my list, unless it has been updated, I have got three Defence
19 teams that do not wish to cross-examine this witness, and that's the
20 Borovcanin, Gvero and Pandurevic teams. I would like confirmation of
22 MR. JOSSE: Confirmed on behalf of General Gvero.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
24 MR. LAZEROVIC: Also on behalf of Borovcanin Defence.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes?
1 MR. HAYNES: Yes, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I have the Miletic Defence team will require
3 one hour, and then the Popovic, Beara and Nikolic Defence teams.
4 So I suggest you start, Madame Fauveau, unless there is an
5 arrangement that someone else will.
6 Mr. Zivanovic.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
9 Q. Witness, good morning.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. I would like to ask you for some clarifications of the statement
12 you provided to the Prosecutor on the 20th of April, 2007. In that
13 statement, actually, the facility where you were, we refer to it as the
14 northern location, so for specific reasons we do not mention its name, so
15 when you are referring to the northern location, I would like you to know
16 that that refers to the facility where you were in the course of 1995.
17 Amongst other things, I saw in your statement that in February
18 1995, you attended a course which lasted 15 days, for seven to eight
19 hours each day. My question is if the course was organised for all
20 members of your unit or just for those who were selected from units and
21 then sent to attend the course?
22 A. The course was organised for members. Actually, I think all
23 members of my unit attended the course, as well as members of other units
24 who were performing the same duties within the 2nd Corps. I think that
25 they all -- or everyone was supposed to go through the course.
1 Q. During the 15 days that you attended the course, did you see
2 members of other units there and that was -- on the basis of that, you
3 concluded that they were attending the same course?
4 A. Well, to tell you the truth, it was a long time ago. I think
5 that there were members of other units there. The course was organised
6 at the level of the corps. I don't remember everyone who was there, but
7 I think that it was attended by members of other units.
8 Q. Thank you. Is it correct if I say that you received some basic
9 instructions at the course for intercepting communications, how to
10 operate the equipment, and which methodology to apply in the work?
11 A. Yes, we received some basic theoretical guidance that we lacked.
12 We received the basic training required for our work.
13 Q. Were you instructed at the time on how to work, how to organise
14 your work; in other words, that you needed to transcribe the
15 conversations into the notebook, how to do it, how to proceed from there,
16 and so on and so forth?
17 A. I and a considerable number of my colleagues had already been
18 doing that work for a couple of years, two or three years, from 1992
19 onwards, so that, in a sense, the operative things were something that we
20 were already familiar with. It was a course to cover this kind of thing
21 in a formal way. Honestly speaking, I cannot remember if the course
22 covered the extent of our work and other aspects.
23 Q. Can you please tell me, if you remember, if not at the course,
24 then if you can remember generally, who issued instructions for your
25 work? Who organised work at the location where you were, within your
2 A. There was a command structure. There were section commanders,
3 platoon commanders. There was a command of the division while I was at
4 that location, and then within the command there was an officer in charge
5 of organising this unit.
6 Q. Among other things, you said in your statement that the last
7 three months at the northern location, you primarily worked on data
8 processing, and you explained that the data processing comprised
9 gathering information from the three work stations that were operating,
10 then deciding which information was important, conveying or transferring
11 this information into the computer, and then drafting short summary
12 reports which were then forwarded to the command. Do you recall saying
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I would like to ask you to explain what it means when you say
16 "gathering" or "compiling" the information from the three work stations?
17 A. The operators at the work stations decided, themselves, which
18 conversations were important and which were not. So they recorded a
19 number of conversations, and those they considered important were
20 transcribed, written down verbatim into the notebook.
21 What you are asking me about now is that actually I was often the
22 person who would take each of the notebooks and take from the notebooks
23 what, in my opinion, was the most important thing, then I would copy that
24 or and pass it on or send it to the command. What I mean to say is that
25 not everything that was recorded was not transcribed, and everything that
1 was written down in the notebooks was not sent to the command, only that
2 which we considered important.
3 Q. Very well. You also said that you decided which of the
4 information was important. You just said that. But you also just said
5 that the information was sent to the command, and I see that in the
6 statement, that it says that you typed them into the computer. So could
7 you please tell me if that means that you also sent the reports out or
8 you just typed them into the computer and then someone else sent them
10 A. I typed them into the computer. Then I would copy that onto a
11 diskette, and I would give the diskette to the communication centre,
12 which was at the same facility but in the other part of the building,
13 there was a communication centre, and they would then send that to the
14 command. They used package radio or digital communication to -- to send
15 the reports out.
16 Q. So this part of the sentence, where you say that you sent summary
17 reports to the command, you actually mean that you typed that into the
18 computer and copied that onto a diskette?
19 A. On a daily basis, I would draft a report, copy it onto a
20 diskette, and then hand that to the communication centre, which would
21 then send that to the command.
22 Q. In the statement, you say that you sent off summary reports.
23 Does that mean that these were just brief reports containing the key
24 information that you felt was important?
25 A. No. I would literally copy into the report what was written in
1 the notebooks, but only those conversations that I felt were important.
2 I didn't analyse the conversations. I would type them exactly the way
3 they were written into the notebooks, but I would only do that with those
4 conversations that I felt were important.
5 Q. So can we conclude that your assertion that you sent summary
6 reports is not accurate?
7 A. Well, it depends what you mean, summary reports. "Summary" in
8 the sense that, I repeat, we did not send out everything that we had
9 written down. We only sent out things that we considered important.
10 Q. Reading this part of the statement that I put to you, I see that
11 you put those two things differently. You said that you decided which
12 information was important, that you typed that into the computer, and
13 then you sent out summary reports. Now you say that these summary
14 reports are the same as the selection of the information that would be
15 sent out. So it arises from your statement that these are two different
16 things. If you wish, I can show you the statement. We can look at it on
17 the monitor, if you would like to refresh your memory.
18 This is statement P2777 from the Prosecutor's list. It's
19 paragraph 7.
20 A. Yes, you can show that to me.
21 Q. Yes. You will see it on the screen in a moment.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not being broadcast? No, okay.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. It's paragraph 7?
25 A. Yes. Well, I abide by what I have said before. If I have used
1 the term "summary," it just means summary in the sense that not all the
2 conversations that were written in the notebooks were sent out, only
3 those that we selected.
4 Q. In other words, are you trying to say that the term "summary" was
5 used by mistake?
6 A. Perhaps a more appropriate term could have been used, but it
7 doesn't matter.
8 Q. Would you please look at the same statement, paragraph 11?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Please look at the last sentence. It reads:
11 "The one who was responsible to write a report would take the
12 most important facts and forward them to the command."
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. My impression is that this again seems to point to a summary
15 report. Do you share my opinion?
16 A. No. As I have said, when we referred to what is important, we
17 mean the conversations that are important. When I said the one who was
18 responsible to write the report would take the most important facts, I
19 meant that he would choose the conversations that he considered to be
20 important. He would copy them and send them to the command.
21 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did you yourself decide which channels you
22 would listen in to, or did you get instructions from someone else?
23 A. In this period of time, when we're talking about this period and
24 this facility, we were aware of a certain number of directions and in
25 agreement with the command -- or, rather, pursuant to instructions from
1 the command we monitored certain directions. Since I mentioned "in
2 agreement with," I meant there was a certain system of subordination with
3 other units so as to avoid doubling the monitoring, so that more units
4 would not be monitoring the same directions.
5 Q. When you say that -- I don't know what word you actually used,
6 the agreement that you made with other units, does that mean that you
7 cooperated with them in that respect?
8 A. No, we didn't cooperate. This was resolved by our command, our
9 division command. There was an officer in charge of these affairs, and
10 he would receive orders from the chief of this branch in the corps
12 Q. Are you personally aware of this?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were present there?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did they tell you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did they tell only you or some other people as well?
19 A. I think other members of this unit knew this as well, but I can't
20 assert that for sure.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, your 20 minutes are soon up.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am finished. I just have a
23 few questions.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, go ahead.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please try to conclude.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I will be finishing very quickly. I see that in this same
4 statement, I don't think I need to show it to you now, that you said that
5 you primarily monitored Banja Luka-Belgrade, the Brcko-Modrica and the
6 Bijeljina-Krivik [phoen]-Zvornik directions. Is that true?
7 A. No.
8 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Soljan.
10 MS. SOLJAN: I think it may make sense to actually point to the
11 actual paragraph where this is, because that citation wasn't entirely as
12 it is in the statement.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic. Thank you, Ms. Soljan.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness look at
15 paragraph 13 of this statement, please? And then he can tell us what is
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat your
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I would like to ask you to look at paragraph 13 of your
21 statement, where it says that when you moved to this northern facility,
22 you primarily monitored communications Banja Luka-Belgrade, Brcko-Modrica
23 and Bijeljina-Zvornik?
24 A. In my statement, it says:
25 "Banja Luka-Modrica-Brcko-Bijeljina-Belgrade and
2 Q. Then we must have received another statement, I apologise, a
3 different one. Maybe the order has been changed. It is Banja
4 Luka-Modrica-Brcko-Bijeljina-Belgrade and Bijeljina-Zvornik?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We had an earlier statement which was not signed, and I was
7 quoting from that one?
8 And just one more point, which will bring my cross-examination to
9 an end, or rather two.
10 In your statement, you said that among other things, you had to
11 note in the notebook the date, time and frequency at the beginning of
12 every conversation; is that right?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. And these were the instructions you received, I assume, again
15 from your command, that that is how you should work?
16 A. Yes, that was the instruction.
17 Q. And the last point I wish to ask you about has to do with the
18 notebooks. You said that the notebooks, when they were completed, would
19 be handed over to the commander. You said every notebook would be handed
20 to the commander when it was completed. So could you tell me, did you
21 then receive a new notebook?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you transcribe those conversations in a single notebook
24 until it was filled; do you remember that?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
3 Madame Fauveau.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] P2438B, could that document be
5 shown to the witness, and P2438A is the English version of this
6 transcribed intercepted conversation.
7 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
8 Q. Sir, the conversation that you see on the screen, "Saturday, the
9 28th of October, 1995," is that a conversation that you transcribed?
10 A. Yes. But you said "Sunday" and it says "Saturday" here.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about that, Madame Fauveau, because in
12 the transcript it is "Saturday."
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
14 Q. You noted that the participants in this conversation were
15 General Milovanovic, Natsis [phoen], Panorama and "X." Could you tell us
16 who is designated as Natsis in this conversation?
17 A. The participants in this conversation are General Milovanovic and
18 "X." Natsis and Panorama are the intermediaries; that is, the telephone
19 exchange operators who were code named Natsis and Panorama. They
20 probably referred to certain units or the commands of certain units.
21 Q. And how did you determine that the two exchanges in question are
22 Natsis and Panorama?
23 A. The telephone operators at those exchanges frequently say those
24 names themselves, and probably at the time we knew that this channel was
25 a link between those two exchanges.
1 Q. Could you now look at the contents of this conversation. Is it
2 true that in line 5, the fifth line of this conversation,
3 General Milovanovic has asked for a colonel, and whose name you didn't
4 mention to catch -- manage to catch?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. And then as nobody answered, General Milovanovic asked for
7 somebody called Duboriva [phoen]?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And again nobody answered. Then General Milovanovic asked for a
10 third number, and that is 155?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And when the person at Extension 155 answered, Milovanovic said
13 to him --
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we now roll on to the second
15 page, please.
16 Q. So General Milovanovic said to the person who answered at
17 Extension 155 that he needed Miletic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you were listening in to this conversation, you were not
20 able to determine whether General Milovanovic was looking for Miletic,
21 Dubovina or number 155?
22 A. Could you please clarify your question a little bit?
23 Q. When you were intercepting this conversation, you were not able
24 to understand whether General Milovanovic was looking for Miletic at the
25 colonel's number that he asked for first; at Dubovina's number, the
1 second person he asked for; or at extension number 155?
2 A. I didn't understand that.
3 Q. In any event, when he obtained somebody at extension 155, he
4 didn't ask to speak to General Miletic at that point, did he?
5 A. I noted down what I heard in that notebook.
6 Q. And what you transcribed, nowhere do we see that he asked for
7 General Miletic at number 155?
8 A. If that is your understanding.
9 Q. Did you write down anywhere that General Miletic was looked for
10 at extension number 155?
11 A. I wrote down what I heard in the notebook.
12 Q. Is it true that the person who answered at number 155 did not
13 introduce himself?
14 A. If he had introduced himself, I would have noted it down.
15 Q. And reading this conversation, one can conclude that
16 General Milovanovic was not surprised to hear this person at
17 extension 155?
18 A. Probably.
19 Q. And that person certainly wasn't General Miletic?
20 A. I wrote down what I heard.
21 Q. And what you heard was, in fact, that when no one answered at
22 155, General Milovanovic said, "I needed General Miletic"; is that
24 A. I wrote down: "I needed Miletic," without the rank of general
25 being indicated.
1 Q. Yes, you are quite right. You mentioned an authorisation in the
2 first line of this page. You were not able to hear what kind of
3 authorisation or permission was being referred to?
4 A. I am repeating again that what I heard, I noted down.
5 Q. And you did not specify what kind of authorisation was involved?
6 A. If I had heard that, I would have written it down.
7 Q. You recorded this conversation on the 28th of October, 1995. Did
8 you know that the person working with you on another work station, I
9 think it was Work Station 2, on the 28th of October, 1995, was not able
10 to register any conversations, as there was no signal?
11 A. Just now at this point in time, I don't know anything about that,
12 because this was 12 years ago.
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 5D287?
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Can I interrupt you a minute while
15 we have this intercept in front of us?
16 Witness, the fifth line, you read -- could you read the fifth
17 line from the top?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean on the second page?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The fifth line, "X" says: "You
21 have it at Bandita's in Pijesuk."
22 JUDGE KWON: Do you by any chance remember what "Bandita" means?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember, nor can I say
24 now. I assume it is a name, looking at the text. That is just my
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Fauveau.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Your Honour.
3 Could we show the witness 5D298, please, and I would like this
4 exhibit not to be broadcast.
5 Q. Sir, do you recognise this notebook?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is it not a notebook that belonged to your unit and that it was
8 used by Work Station 2?
9 A. Possibly, but I can no longer remember how that notebook looked.
10 Q. Can we now show page 2 of this notebook? Is it true that the
11 numbers you see, 610, 960, is an indication of the frequency that was
12 being monitored by this work station?
13 A. I think that it is the frequency range that work station was
14 listening into, I think. I think that the radio relay device, RRV 800,
15 operates within the frequency range of 610 to 960 megahertz.
16 Q. You are most probably right. My technical knowledge is not good
17 enough to describe exactly what it is. But in any case, these are
19 Could we now move on to page 116 of this document. Is it true
20 that the person working at this work station on the 28th of October,
21 1995, noted down that there was no signal?
22 A. Correct, but it is also correct that at that workplace those
23 frequencies were being monitored, and that at the workplace where I was,
24 another frequency was being monitored, and we did have a signal there.
25 Q. So you're telling us that the frequency, 861, on which the
1 General Milovanovic's conversation was intercepted, was not listened in
2 at Post 2, Work Station 2?
3 A. I said in the statement that there were three workplaces. At
4 each of those workplaces, different frequencies were being monitored.
5 Q. Is it not customary for the person who doesn't have a signal for
6 one reason or another on the frequency he usually monitors, moves on to
7 another frequency for which there is a signal?
8 A. Let us say that it was customary if the intensity of the
9 conversation is high, but there are technical limitations; and that is,
10 if an antenna was a fixed antenna at the other workplace and if the
11 intensity is not high, there's no point in climbing up to the roof and
12 turning the antenna around in another direction.
13 Q. Why [as interpreted] the person who is working at this workplace
14 did not indicate at which frequencies there were no signal?
15 A. He did indicate. You can see the frequencies here, if I can read
16 it properly, 820250 and 830720.
17 Q. Sir, would you please read exactly what is written down in
18 line 2, above the line indicating: "28th October 1995, Saturday, there
19 is no signal"?
20 A. If I am seeing it well, it says: "Signal at 820250, arrived at
21 1903 hours."
22 Q. And the next line, please?
23 A. Signal 837200 arrived in 1700 hours.
24 Q. And the next line?
25 A. "Signal 820250, Nesto at 1935," I think it says.
1 Q. Nesto, meaning disappeared.
2 A. And the next line: "Signals 820250 and 654000 emerged at 20
3 hours 55."
4 Q. Is it true, then, that in fact the notes, which can be found in
5 this notebook, indicating the frequencies, are the frequencies that
6 appear during the day, but nowhere is it stated that the other
7 frequencies could be monitored normally? So these were all frequencies
8 that didn't have a signal?
9 A. I don't know what your question is. I can just say that there
10 were three workplaces and that at each of those places different
11 frequencies were monitored, which means that at one place, one frequency
12 is intercepted; at the second, a second; and at the third, a third. If
13 at one workplace, at this workplace, the person operating said that there
14 were no signals, this doesn't mean that the radio relay communications
15 that were monitored at the other two workplaces could not be monitored.
16 Q. Are you telling me that the frequency 861 was not being monitored
17 at Post 2?
18 A. I don't know now what the distribution of workplaces was.
19 Obviously, on that day it was being monitored at the workplace where the
20 note was made.
21 Q. And the distribution of frequencies, was that done on a daily
23 A. No. It depended on the conditions. Usually, those frequencies
24 of radio relay links were not changed very often, so that usually for a
25 couple of weeks, a couple of months, even for longer periods, the same
1 radio relay would be monitored at a specific workplace.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown page 42 of
3 this exhibit, please.
4 Q. The frequency you see is 861, isn't it?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown page 45,
8 Q. And, again, at Workplace 2, 861 was being monitored?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] And page 46, please.
11 Q. And this time, again, we see the frequency 861 that was being
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it, therefore, possible that among the frequencies that had no
15 signal, the operator working on the 28th of October, 1995, that that
16 operator also covered frequency 861?
17 A. It was clearly stated which frequencies had no signal in the
18 other note.
19 Q. And you didn't try to scan, when you couldn't find a signal on a
20 certain frequency, to find a frequency where you can catch the signal?
21 A. I was saying it depended on the intensity of the traffic, so if
22 someone was free at a certain workplace because there was no signal on
23 one of those radio relay directions that he was monitoring, he may
24 monitor others if that was necessary, if the traffic was very intense.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we go into
1 private session for a few questions?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.
3 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You said that you took diskettes to the communications unit for
4 them to write the reports. Did you have occasion to see the written
5 reports in a written form, in hard copy, on paper?
6 A. I did have occasion to see them a couple of times when I was at
7 the division command.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
9 Exhibit 5D169, and can the document not be broadcast, please.
10 Q. There is no need for you to read the intercept. I just wanted
11 you to look at the report to see what it looks like. Do you recognise
12 this report that was sent out by your unit?
13 A. I assume that that's the report.
14 Q. Did you have an opportunity to look at the square stamp on
15 reports during the war?
16 A. I probably did see it. I didn't pay much attention to it. It's
17 just a normal stamp indicating receipt.
18 Q. You said that you would take diskettes to the communication unit,
19 which would then pass on the reports. Is it also true that the unit sent
20 out reports for other units which happened to be at the northern
22 A. I don't know that, but I can say that the communication centre
23 did not belong to the (redacted)
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please move
1 into private session?
2 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
14 Exhibit 5D295, and I would like to request that the document not be
16 Q. I assume that you cannot recognise the cover or the first page of
17 this notebook. Can we look at page 2 of this document? Is this a
18 notebook belonging to the communication unit at the northern location?
19 A. I don't know that.
20 Q. But the name of the notebook is the logbook of delivered or sent
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Can we look at page 4 of this document? In this table, on line
24 4, your unit is mentioned. Please do not say the name of the unit out
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And since your unit is mentioned in that line and in some other
3 lines just the 2nd Corps is mentioned; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know if all telegrams that were sent and that were
6 received had to be recorded in a notebook?
7 A. I assume that. I would just like to say here, earlier I said
8 that this was the communications centre which was in another part of the
9 building, and as I said, the building or the facility was divided into
10 two parts. The communications centre was in another part of the
11 location, and I never entered that area. Therefore, we would deliver the
12 diskette to them at the door, and that was it. I was not able to see the
13 notebook or the way in which they worked.
14 Q. Isn't it correct that you had to sign once you handed the
15 diskette over to the person who worked at the centre?
16 A. I'm not sure about that. I assume that it is so.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness
18 page 14 of the notebook? The bottom of the page, please.
19 Q. The signature that we see at the bottom of the page, is that your
21 A. That is my signature.
22 Q. Is it true that each time you brought the diskette and when the
23 report was sent out, the report was recorded in the notebook, and you
24 signed as the person who provided the diskette?
25 A. As far as I know, that was so.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness please look at the
2 following page?
3 Q. Is this an example of a telegram that was sent and that we have
4 your signature next to it in the first three lines?
5 A. This is not an example of a telegram. This is an example of the
6 dispatch logbook.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not being broadcast; correct? Okay, thank
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
10 Q. That is correct, sir, it's an example of a list of telegrams that
11 was sent out and which also feature your signature before the signature
12 of the person that actually dispatched the telegram?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. Sir, you mentioned in the statement a security unit, and you said
15 that you did not cooperate with that unit at your level at the northern
17 A. That is correct. The unit was also located in the part of the
18 building where the communication centre was, so I didn't go there. The
19 only people who had access to that part were the people who worked
21 Q. Didn't you have the opportunity to dispatch to the security
22 centre intercepts that were taken by your unit?
23 A. All the intercepts that we wanted to send to our command, we
24 would place on the diskette and take it to the communication centre.
25 That was what we did.
1 Q. Were there instances that you would give the diskette to the
2 security service?
3 A. No. I would hand it over exclusively to members who worked at
4 the communication centre.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness
6 Exhibit 5D289?
7 Q. Sir, there's no need to read and analyse the intercept. All I
8 would like to know from you is if what you see in front of you is
9 something that was written by your unit and that underneath it says:
10 "Security Service, SB Tuzla"; do you know what that means?
11 A. Can I look at the heading on the page, please?
12 Q. Yes, of course. In order to help you, I'm going to put a direct
13 question to you. Do you recognise the document of the 2nd Corps unit
14 that was at the northern location?
15 A. I am not sure, according to the heading. I think it's not stated
16 in the -- in the heading. I think that this is not a document that was
17 drafted in our unit. But once again, I'm not sure.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not being broadcast. Okay, thank you.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Sir, I didn't want to say that it was a document generated by
21 your unit, I'm just saying that it's a document of a 2nd Corps unit, but
22 the intercept that is written here was taken down by your unit, and it
23 reached the unit of the 2nd Corps through the Security Service unit?
24 A. I'm telling you again that we would hand over all the reports to
25 the radio operator at the communication centre. Perhaps he passed the
1 reports on to somebody else. I don't know that, and I don't know if my
2 command, the division command - and I assume that they did - conveyed the
3 reports to the corps command, so perhaps there were some connections at
4 the level of the command with the Security Service. What I do know is
5 that we did not have any contact with the people who were doing this kind
6 of work for the Security Service.
7 Q. Very well. But you also assumed that at a higher level
8 information was exchanged amongst different units that were conducting
9 the same work as you, that were transcribing intercepted conversations.
10 First they would intercept the conversations and then transcribe them?
11 A. That's probably how it was, for sure.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I have no further
14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I apologise. Mr. Meek.
17 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour. Your microphone is not on, but I
18 have no questions.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, it is on.
20 MR. MEEK: I don't have any questions, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Meek.
22 Ms. Nikolic.
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this
24 witness. Thank you.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically, that means we're finished with him.
1 Yes, we're finished with the cross-examinations, I mean. We haven't
2 finished with him.
3 Is there a re-examination, Ms. Soljan?
4 MS. SOLJAN: No, Your Honours, thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Kwon, Judge Prost?
6 Sir, witness, we're finished with you. You're lucky. You're
7 free to go. Our staff will assist you.
8 Before you leave this courtroom, however, on behalf of my
9 colleagues, Judge Kwon and Judge Prost and the Trial Chamber, I wish to
10 thank you for having come over to give testimony, and on behalf of
11 everyone I wish you a safe journey back home.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome. Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: There shouldn't be problems in finalising the
14 documents relating to this witness before I check whether we can also
15 finalise the ones related to the previous one.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Soljan, you had circulated earlier on -- I
18 still have it somewhere. Which documents would you like to tender with
19 this witness, please?
20 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour, on the sheet we handed over, it would
21 be P02777, the witness's statement, as well as P02438A and B, which is a
22 copy of the intercept, B/C/S and English.
23 JUDGE KWON: Were they not admitted earlier when Ms. Frease was
25 MS. SOLJAN: I believe they were marked for identification by a
1 previous witness, but not actually admitted.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: And they will remain so, because we have agreed
3 that they will be --
4 JUDGE KWON: There's no point to --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I don't -- I don't see the point, but we just
6 need to verify it to make sure that they were included, but I -- I would
7 imagine that they were.
8 Let's start with the summary sheet, the summary sheet. There is
9 no point in even putting any questions. That will be admitted and kept
10 under seal.
11 Now, there is the witness statement. You have the reference
12 number in both versions. Is there any objection on the part of any of
13 the Defence teams for the admission of this document?
14 We hear none, so that is admitted, and it has PO2 -- number
16 And now we come to the intercepts, and I understand you were
17 trying -- you were about to address the Chamber, especially following
18 what Judge Kwon pointed out, Ms. Soljan.
19 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, I was just about to say that it had
20 previously gone -- or, in other words, it had been previously mentioned
21 and just marked for identification, but that's all.
22 JUDGE KWON: So they were tendered previously?
23 MS. SOLJAN: They were tendered, that's right.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So I don't think they need to be tendered again.
25 They remain marked for identification as they were before, for the same
1 purpose that we have marked for identification various intercepts, and we
2 can leave the matter there.
3 Does any one of the Defence teams wish to tender any documents in
4 relation to this witness.
5 Ms. Fauveau.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I would like
7 to tender 5D169, 5D289. These are two reports that were shown to the
8 witness. And also 287, which is the notebook, but only 107.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections, Ms. Soljan?
10 MS. SOLJAN: No, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Have they all -- we have translations for each one
12 of them?
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Only 5D169 has been translated.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Hearing no objections, that document 5D169 is
15 admitted. The other one, 5D289, will remain marked for identification.
16 The same applies to page 107, from the notebook, that was shown to the
17 witness, which I think is 287. Is that correct? What is the number of
18 the notebook?
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think there's a mistake in the
20 translation. It is page 116.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, 116. And what is the identification
22 number of the notebook?
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It is separately in the e-court
24 under number 5D281.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, thank you. That will also be admitted
1 and marked for identification, like all other intercepts. All right.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: My idea or our idea is to finalise also the
4 exhibits relating to the previous witness, Mr. Galic. We start with you,
5 Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I would offer 65 ter 329,
7 the Zvornik Brigade daily interim combat report. I believe it was
8 mentioned before, but I don't think it was offered into evidence, is my
9 note. And also 65 ter 347, which is the Zvornik Brigade IKM log.
10 I also had two documents on redirect which are numbers P00871,
11 which was the Drina Corps order about buses, and then P00322, the Zvornik
12 Brigade combat report of the same date, 12 July, about buses.
13 That's it from the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections?
15 So, these documents are all translated, Mr. McCloskey?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: The Zvornik Brigade IKM book, I'm not sure if the
17 whole thing is, but the relevant -- did we get the whole thing? Yeah, I
18 guess Mr. Bourgon signals me, Yes, it is, and they are then.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So, there being no objection, these
20 documents are admitted as exhibits.
21 Now, I understand the Nikolic Defence team has a number of
22 documents. The same applies to the Pandurevic Defence team.
23 We'll begin with you, Mr. Bourgon. You have distributed a list
24 already. Do you maintain that list?
25 MR. BOURGON: Yes, with a few modifications, Mr. President, and
1 so the first is the -- like I said, the first interview of the witness
2 with the Prosecution under 3D115, dated 21 September 2001; the second
3 interview dated 27 June 2002; as well as the handwritten, partly
4 illegible statement, which is 3D118. These three document -- dated 28
5 August 2003. These three documents, Mr. President, I would seek they be
6 admitted for impeachment purposes only.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stop there for a moment.
8 Any objection, Mr. McCloskey?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no objection to them going in for the
10 Court, but I don't see any reason that we need to limit it for
11 impeachment purposes only. This is not something that I think is
12 appropriate in this situation or system.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. Bourgon?
14 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, it's just my request because those
15 were used and they go to the credibility of this witness. There was one
16 main issue, and if it wasn't for the issue of credibility, they would not
17 be going in. And I simply believe that they will be of assistance to the
18 Trial Chamber in assessing the credibility of that witness. That's why
19 they should go in only for impeachment purposes, and nothing else.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
21 Is there any other Defence team that wishes to object?
22 There are none.
23 One moment, please.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We will be admitting these three documents, but
1 we'll tell you exactly whether it's for a limited purpose or whether
2 we'll be dealing with them differently. We'll let you know later.
3 Let's proceed with the others, please.
4 MR. BOURGON: Thank you. I move on to document number 4 on the
5 list, which was the Ministry of Defence order for mobilisation, 15 July
6 1995, under 3D119.
7 I move to number 6, which is a related document, the list of
8 military conscripts, also from the Ministry of Defence under 3D125, dated
9 17 July 1995. And I follow with the security instruction. This was a
10 document that was used by Mr. Haynes -- document number 5, the Mladic
11 [Realtime transcript read in error "Miletic"] instruction. That's a
12 document used by Mr. Haynes, and we provided and there is a translation
13 that goes along with that.
14 I now move to item 7 on my list, which is the Zvornik Brigade
15 operations duty officer notebook. Now, this is a Prosecution exhibit, as
16 I've mentioned, P377. All we want to have admitted is the part that we
17 used, and this was -- this will be under 3D131.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
19 MR. BOURGON: And this is for the dates of 13th to 20 July 1995.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And the last one?
21 MR. BOURGON: And finally is the document, the IKM log number 8
22 that was tendered by the Prosecution, and then there is document number
23 9, the roster, the duty roster of the command of the Zvornik Infantry
24 Brigade. This is Prosecution document 1047. I don't know if we're going
25 to now use a "3D" number or if we -- this was a document that was
1 accompanying the first interview of the witness. And the same thing goes
2 for document number 10, which was a Zvornik Brigade structure which was
3 used during the first interview with the witness.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
5 I notice Ms. Fauveau standing.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] There's an error in the
7 transcript. Page 70, line 21 in the transcript is something referring to
8 Miletic, and I'm quite sure it's not that.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's Mladic, not Miletic. Thank you, and that will
10 be corrected.
11 Any objection on the part of the Prosecution or any of the other
12 Defence teams?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Your Honour, and it doesn't matter to me what
14 numbers they get. These military documents, I don't think you're making
15 any distinguishing between whether they are Defence numbers or
16 Prosecution numbers. It doesn't really matter to the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I take it, Mr. Bourgon, that the only
18 one which is still not yet translated is number 6, 3D125. Correct?
19 MR. BOURGON: Correct, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. I'm being told that 1047 is
21 already admitted as a Prosecution document, Exhibit P311. And it was
22 admitted with Witness PW-101. So, I don't think it needs to be admitted
23 again or tendered again.
24 Mr. Bourgon.
25 MR. BOURGON: Well, if this is the case, because 101, we used
1 part of that document, but this -- this one is the list, was specifically
2 related to officers in the command and I'm not sure -- it might be a
3 longer exhibit that -- it might be part of the longer exhibit we used
4 then, but that's perfectly fine with me.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
6 Mr. --
7 MR. BOURGON: I would just like to draw your attention,
8 Mr. President, to an error in the transcript at page 69, line 14, where
9 it says that the first interview of the witness with the Prosecution was
10 3D185, and it's 3D115. And there is no number for the second interview,
11 which should read "3D116."
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. So all your documents
13 tendered are being admitted. Number 6, namely, 3D125, will be marked for
14 identification pending translation.
15 Now, Mr. Haynes, you also have circulated a list which also shows
16 which ones are still awaiting translation. Do you confirm it?
17 MR. HAYNES: I confirm that list. I confess I copied it to
18 Ms. Stewart, who's left court since the last break, so if Mr. McCloskey
19 could be provided with a quick copy of that, he might be able to glance
20 through it and we could short-circuit this.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. Do you have a hard copy of it,
22 Mr. McCloskey?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President, but I don't remember having
24 any problems with any of the things he's talking about. But I'll take a
1 MR. HAYNES: There are 15 documents. The first seven need to be
2 marked for translation. In summary, they are the five mobilisation
3 orders I showed the witness and the two entries from the duty officer's
4 notebook of the 11th of June and the 16th of September. There are, then,
5 a series of daily and interim combat reports which have Prosecution 65
6 ter numbers and have not, I'm informed, previously been admitted into
7 evidence. And the last two documents are the list of dead people
8 unmarked and marked.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
10 Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: No objection.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. No objection from any other of the Defence
14 So they are all being tendered and admitted. The ones which are
15 still awaiting translation, however, will for the time being, be marked
16 for identification.
17 So we'll have a 25-minute break now. You have another witness, I
18 suppose, no?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: We've got two more, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You can choose which one.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon, Mr. McCloskey. In relation to
24 the three documents, 3D115, 116 and 118, that we told you that will be
25 coming back to you, we are coming back to you now. We all agree
1 unanimously that these three documents ought to be admitted by majority,
2 Judge Kwon dissenting. We have agreed that they would be admitted not
3 solely for impeachment purposes, but for the limited purpose of serving
4 us better when we come to evaluating the evidence of this witness.
5 Yes, you can explain it, Judge Kwon.
6 JUDGE KWON: My dissenting is to the limited purpose of the --
7 the admission for the limited purpose, which was not clear from the
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So next witness. I would like you to -- I would
10 like to invite you, actually, to realise that this witness will be
11 starting now and then he's got three and a half days when he is expected
12 to remain incommunicado, et cetera. But I am -- we are not interfering
13 in any manner, so you may proceed, if you wish to.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't mind if we just quit for the day. As you
15 say, the witness has to come back. I hadn't thought of that as an
16 option, but --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, I'm not in any way telling you that our
18 preference is that we don't start. I just want to make sure that you are
19 all aware of this. There were previous occasions when we decided to go
20 ahead and other occasions where, considering the limited time we had
21 available, decided to postpone the testimony. So it's up to you, Mr.
22 McCloskey. We don't know what the circumstances are. You are perhaps in
23 a better position to make an assessment.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: The witness is fine -- I think he's fine to go.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, then we'll bring him in.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and I might be able to finish direct. I
2 shouldn't take too long.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one other -- in discussing -- could we go
5 into private session for one second?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. Let's go into private session, please.
7 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no protective measures in place for this
9 witness, is there? Yes.
10 Good morning to you.
11 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, yes. Good afternoon to you, and
13 welcome to this Tribunal.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you start giving evidence, could you please
16 make the solemn declaration required by our rules that you will be
17 testifying the truth.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: DANKO GOJKOVIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself
23 comfortable, take a seat. I'll explain a few things to you.
24 Mr. McCloskey will go first. There is no way we can finish with
25 your entire testimony today. We will need to continue it later, and that
1 will be on Tuesday, because Monday is a public holiday here.
2 Between now, when you finish your testimony today, and Tuesday,
3 when you resume, it's important that you do not communicate with anyone
4 on the subject matter of your testimony or let anyone communicate or
5 discuss with you the same subject matter. Is that clear?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, clear.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise, I can assure you that our staff will do
8 their utmost to make your stay here in the meantime as easy as possible.
9 Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
12 Q. Good afternoon.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. Can you first tell us your full name?
15 A. Danko Gojkovic.
16 Q. And as I mentioned to you, we have a system in place here that
17 allows us to try to make your evidence a little shorter, and so I'll ask
18 you a few questions in that regard.
19 Have you had a chance to review the transcript of your interview
20 from 16 May 2006 with the Office of the Prosecutor?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that a correct version of your interview?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. If you were asked the same questions, would your answers be the
1 A. Yes, they would.
2 Q. All right. And so I'll read a brief summary that I think we went
3 over before, and that will help us save some time:
4 "Mr. Gojkovic was born on the 7th of June, 1967, in Rogatica in
5 Bosnia and Herzegovina. He performed his mandatory military service in
6 1985 in the JNA in the communications section. He was mobilised in
7 April 1992 and worked as a signalsman in the command of the Rogatica
8 Brigade. In July 1995, Mr. Gojkovic was one of two teleprinter operators
9 in the Brigade communications section.
10 As a teleprinter operator, Mr. Gojkovic would receive various
11 documents and type them into the teleprinter and send them to the
12 appropriate location.
13 In his OTP interview of 16 May 2006, Mr. Gojkovic was shown
14 several documents and commented on whether or not he recognised his
15 initials or signature on various documents. Among the documents he was
16 shown was document ERN 0425-8580, a document which was dated 13 July 1995
17 and noted to have been from the IKM 65 ZMTP to the Commander of the
18 GSVRS. Mr. Gojkovic confirmed that he typed the document into the
19 teleprinter and sent it. He identified his handwriting at the bottom of
20 the page indicating the time, date and his signature.
21 Mr. Gojkovic stated that there was no teleprinter connection
22 between his office and the IKM in Borike. He said there was telephone
23 communication between his office and Borike. He also said that Borike
24 did not have a teleprinter so Borike IKM would not have sent any
25 documents via teleprinter directly from Borike.
1 Mr. Gojkovic stated that after he would type a message into the
2 teleprinter, the original message would be saved and sent to the
4 Now, that's just meant to be a summary. Is that basically
5 correct, that summary?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, just a few questions I should have. I hope it's just a
9 Do you recall being shown a bundle of original documents that
10 were the ones I referred to in my summary?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I just want to hand you that original -- that bundle just so you
13 can take a look at it, especially this first cardboard front on it.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, the -- this bundle contains
15 all the various numbers that we have noted in the -- in the list, which I
16 will get to a little bit later.
17 Q. And if you could just put the front -- or if you could put the
18 front one on this thing called the ELMO, so that everyone can see this --
19 this front word, this won't take long. And can you tell us -- well, ELMO
20 needs to -- to try to catch the word, so it needs to come up. There we
22 Can you read that word, tell us what that word is on this little
23 cardboard thing that is in the front of this bundle?
24 A. It says "Atlantida" [phoen].
25 Q. Do you have any idea what this term, Atlantida, signifies or
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Now, can you go to the -- in the bundle, I've marked one
4 of the originals with a little red sticky, and that is P00192. If we
5 could bring that up in both languages, and she'll put that on the -- on
6 the ELMO. And could we focus the ELMO down at the bottom of the page.
7 First of all, let me just ask you, do you remember the substance
8 of any of these documents where you've recognised your initials or
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. Well, now let's look at this particular document,
12 especially the -- we see the typed text, but could you take a look at the
13 handwritten part? You can actually look at the original document, which
14 is just down to your right on this machine.
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Now, if we could blow up down at the
18 Q. Can you just read for us that -- now, first of all, well, did you
19 write that handwritten material?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And so can you read what is said there?
22 A. The handwritten part?
23 Q. Yes, just the handwritten part.
24 A. Dispatched 1510 on the 13th of July, 1995, and my signature.
25 Q. All right. Now, can you just tell us, briefly, what you can --
1 what you did with this document? What does "dispatched" mean?
2 A. When it was brought to me, I printed it on the teleprinter and
3 then we sent it off. This was the time when I was told that it had been
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness get closer to the microphone,
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: They want you a little closer to the microphone.
8 The interpreters are having a hard time hearing you.
9 Q. Can you just explain to us in a little more detail the process of
10 the -- the teleprinter, what this thing is and what it does when you type
11 on it? The teleprinter, that is.
12 A. It transmits the text on a tape, which will, through the
13 communication system, reach the corps or the addressee, whoever that is.
14 I simply type out or retype -- I don't know how to explain it.
15 Q. Okay, no problem. Does the teleprinter or something attached to
16 it encode the -- the document that you're typing into it?
17 A. Yes, there is a device that encoded it.
18 Q. Okay. By looking at the -- the print face of this -- of the
19 document, no longer your handwriting, can you tell what -- what kind of
20 machine made those letters?
21 A. An old typewriter, possibly.
22 Q. Do you have a typewriter in your office?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And you don't remember this document, in particular, as you've
25 stated, so do you remember how this document got to you, who gave it to
2 A. Probably they brought it to me, but I can't remember that. That
3 was 10, 12 years ago.
4 Q. What would be just the normal process that you might get a
5 document like this? Like who would bring it to you?
6 A. Well, if I'm in the command, it would be given to me. If I'm
7 not, if I'm working on the teleprinter, then the messenger would bring it
8 to me, one of the soldiers who might be there would bring it.
9 Q. Okay. Now, if we look at this, there's -- there's no handwritten
10 signature for Milomir Savcic. Is that unusual, to get a document that
11 doesn't have a signature on it?
12 A. I can't remember.
13 Q. Just a couple more questions. Where was your teleprinter office
14 located, in particular; what town and what area, if it was in a town?
15 A. Close to the command.
16 THE INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon. We didn't hear that.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Sorry, the -- the interpreter didn't quite hear you. You said it
19 was close to the command, so can you tell us where the command was?
20 A. The command was at the factory in Rogatica.
21 Q. Okay. And where was your office in relation to the command
23 A. Some 50 to 70 metres away from the command.
24 Q. And how far away was the Borike IKM from the command in
25 Rogatica? Just roughly, if you know?
1 A. About 18 kilometres.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
3 I have no further questions, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Mr. McCloskey.
5 I have on my list several. Mr. Zivanovic?
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. I'm not cross-examining.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Does anyone wish to start now and finish possibly
9 Shall we adjourn? I think it's wiser to adjourn and start the
10 cross-examinations next Tuesday.
11 Witness, we are going to let you go now. Make sure that you
12 enjoy the rest of the weekend, which is a festive weekend for the Dutch
13 here, and the weather is going to be also in your favour, and get ready
14 for Tuesday, when we start with the cross-examinations and hopefully
15 finish on that day.
16 Thank you, and have a nice long weekend, everyone. Thank you.
17 Was it anxiety to leave the courtroom or --
18 MR. BOURGON: No, it's to address the Court, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. I thought so.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, the Trial Chamber has just rendered
22 a decision concerning the -- the way in which three exhibits have been
23 admitted, and of course we are always grateful when the Trial Chamber
24 renders a decision. However, I must, for the sake of the record, state
25 that in normal circumstances maybe if there was -- if the statements were
1 different, I would probably seek leave from the Court simply to withdraw
2 those three statements that I wished to have admitted in evidence.
3 In this case, I do not, because there is nothing in those
4 statements that will hurt my client or any other of the co-accused, and
5 so I don't have any purpose in seeking to withdraw.
6 However, Mr. President, this is an issue that has been going on
7 for some time now. We've had a trial -- decision from the Trial Chamber
8 where statements were admitted at the request of the Prosecution, and we
9 have a request for certification that is pending. At some other time,
10 the Trial Chamber has -- there was the issue of whether we could --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not pending. We decided it. In relation to
12 Witness PW-104?
13 MR. BOURGON: Yes, that --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we have decided it.
15 MR. BOURGON: Then it's -- I apologise. But we also have a
16 request that --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. You need -- you need a long weekend.
18 MR. BOURGON: Oh, yeah, I definitely do. But at some points, the
19 debate is whether we can or not seek to have admitted in evidence partly
20 or redacted statements, and I think this issue is still not clear yet,
21 whether what is the position.
22 The position of the Defence, we already said since -- for some
23 time, we believe that what we ask for could be denied or accepted, and
24 then we can decide whether to withdraw. This, I believe, would be the
25 proper position. But in this case, I don't see no point in withdrawing
1 these statements. But I think it is an issue that is bound to come up
2 again and on which we should get some clarification, Mr. President, if
3 the Trial Chamber would deem to give us.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 Certainly, we acknowledge the point you made earlier on, that you
7 needed these for impeachment purposes. Of course, they are important for
8 your purposes. No question about -- no doubt about that. So --
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] ... if I may add, but I
11 don't think there is a need to go into any depth in this, there were
12 instances where the choice was to admit only parts, and there was
13 agreement, and we were satisfied that we could work ahead with those
14 parts only. There were instances where we considered that the parts
15 alone would not be sufficient for our purposes when we come to evaluating
16 the whole testimony of that witness. We -- we've had various instances,
17 and we've tried to adjust our decision according and depending on what we
18 felt was -- was necessary at the time for the grand purpose that we will
19 have later on and as we go along in evaluating the witness's testimony,
20 as well as others.
21 So -- so I bid you farewell --
22 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I bid you farewell and I wish you a nice, long
24 weekend. We will reconvene at Tuesday in the morning.
25 Next -- incidentally, because I had announced once that we were
1 trying -- making an effort to have the 11th May sitting brought forward
2 from the afternoon to the morning, we have succeeded in doing that. It
3 should appear already on the official court schedule, but I wanted to
4 bring that to your notice. Okay?
5 Thank you.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1:41 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of May,
8 2007, at 9.00 a.m.