1 Thursday, 17 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everybody. Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. McCloskey, you intimated that you
10 would ask some questions.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. We have managed
12 to sort out my problem with the -- with the log and so I think if I can
13 just go back to one log we should finish up.
14 JUDGE KWON: Please.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if I could get the help of the usher, to give
16 the witness two original logs that they will help him take a look because
17 I'm not sure you were able to see all of this before because we may have
18 been missing one.
19 WITNESS: OSTOJA STANISIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stanisic. The log we talked about yesterday was
23 for a TAM 80 and that was Prosecution's 303 and that -- I've also given
24 you a log for a TAM 75, which is Prosecution 945. Now, the yellow sticky,
25 the one with the yellow sticky on it is the new one, the TAM 75. If you
1 could take a look at that one, the originals are right next to you so you
2 can look at it there as well. It might be easier for you. And if you
3 could hand him both, just so he can compare the two to see -- to confirm
4 that we are talking about two different trucks here. First of all, are we
5 talking about two different trucks? Do each of those two logs have to do
6 with two different trucks?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now, let's look at this new log, the one that's got the
9 yellow sticky that's at this thing next to you that we call the ELMO. If
10 we look at the page that's on the ELMO now, it's hard to make out, but it
11 has the same two drivers on it, Dragomir Topalovic and Vlado Josic; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell us what the --
15 JUDGE KWON: To be clear, is this 945?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, the one that we are seeing on the ELMO is
17 945, yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Can you tell us what the difference is between a TAM 75 and a TAM
22 A. Believe me, they are the same for me. The bearing capacity is the
23 same, two and a half tonnes. They have a wooden bed with a tarpaulin. If
24 I understood your question well. You're asking me about the difference
25 between these two trucks, in terms of their - how shall I put it - purpose
1 and characteristics. They are the same to me.
2 Q. And maybe we -- if we can put 945 on the e-court too you may get a
3 better look at it, the reflection from Mr. ELMO is not good.
4 All right. Now, let's take 945, the one on the ELMO and turn it
5 over so we can see the actual route section that gives the indication
6 where the vehicle went, so if you can just turn that over? And this is
7 page 2 of the B/C/S on e-court and page 2 of the English.
8 Now, if we again go, focus our attention on 15 July on this
9 particular truck, again we see, "Petkovci-Brana-Petkovci", number of
10 journeys, four. People, 1 plus 8.
11 Now, can you explain this entry?
12 A. Well, according to this, there were four journeys, and one plus
13 eight probably means that there was a driver plus eight troops or any
14 eight people.
15 Q. Do you know if those eight people were Muslims?
16 A. No. I wouldn't know.
17 Q. Do you know if those people were alive or dead?
18 A. No. I wouldn't know that either.
19 Q. Thank you. I think that should finish that exhibit,
20 Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 I note Mr. Ostojic is not here today but Mr. Meek, you will
23 continue your cross-examination or you're done.
24 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, thank you after consulting with the
25 client we have no further questions.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Zivanovic?
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE KWON: So Mr. Zivanovic is representing Mr. Popovic. Please
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stanisic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. I only have a couple questions for you. As I was reading the
9 interview you provided on the second occasion in March 2002, as far as I
10 can remember, I've noticed that the investigator informed you that he
11 wanted to copy a personal note, the notes that you had in front of you
12 while you were talking to him. Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. As far as I understood from your position, you were against those
15 notes being copied?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I've also noticed that he told you that he would certainly do it
18 despite your protestations because those were his authorities from the
19 Tribunal. My question to you is this: Did he ever show you such an
21 A. No.
22 Q. Once he copied your personal notes, the investigator told you that
23 the copying of those notes would protect you. Did he maybe explain to you
24 how the copying would serve to protect your interests?
25 A. I can't remember that conversation. I don't remember that he ever
1 mentioned the word "protect." He only told me that the documents were
2 something that he needed, that he had a right to take the notebook from me
3 and to copy it.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: [Previous translation continues] ... If we're going
5 to be getting into the detail of what the investigator's saying and what
6 he remembers, it would be fair to have the witness see his answers and the
8 JUDGE KWON: I agree.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
10 the exhibit and the passage I was referring to is on page 80.
11 Q. The investigator says literally, and I'm reading from --
12 THE REGISTRAR: What is the exhibit number, please?
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please bear with
14 me. 7D266. Page 80 in the B/C/S version, and page 78 in English, I
15 believe, but just let me double-check that.
16 JUDGE KWON: If you could check the page in front of you is the
17 right page.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. Just a moment, please. Bear
19 with me. I was looking at another text, which is only in B/C/S, and what
20 I have in front of me is a combination of both languages. So I don't have
21 that. I am not in a position to give you the exact number since the text
22 that we were originally given has been changed. First we were given a
23 combined B/C/S-English version and later on we were provided with two
24 separate versions, and I can only refer the number of page in the B/C/S
25 version, and I can also ask the usher to place the text on the ELMO, or I
1 can read it verbatim. I am sorry, I apologise, I'm not in a position to
2 give you the exact number of the page in this particular version.
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We can --
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 3D149. Could I please call up
5 that document? Page 80. In the English version, this is on page 72.
6 JUDGE KWON: So Mr. Stanisic, do you have that passage in front of
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you scroll down a little,
9 please? Thank you.
10 Q. Can you see the initials DM and when DM is mentioned for the third
11 time from the bottom, and it says here, "One of the reasons for which I
12 would like to photocopy your notes is the fact that this may protect you."
13 It's on page 74 of the English version.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The very beginning. Since I do not see any explanation that was
16 provided to you or at least it has not been recorded in the transcript,
17 I'm asking you if the investigator maybe explained to you how the
18 photocopying of your personal notes might protect you?
19 A. No. He did not give me any explanations, and believe me, I really
20 could not remember this passage when you first asked me about it. I can
21 see it now but he never explained anything to me. He didn't tell me why
22 he would need the notes and how I would be protected by those notes.
23 Q. He kept your notes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did he maybe explain to you how he would protect you if he kept
1 your notes?
2 A. No, he didn't.
3 Q. The entire interview between the investigator and yourself, was it
4 recorded on a tape?
5 A. Yes, it was.
6 Q. Do you know why I'm asking you this? In one part of that
7 conversation, the investigator says to you that he is giving you back your
8 ID, your personal ID. Do you remember that?
9 A. No, I don't remember that.
10 Q. I can locate that in the document to jog your memory. I'm asking
11 you this because nowhere in the interview did I see a reference made to
12 him taking the ID from you. I conclude from that that the ID was taken
13 from you before the beginning of the interview. Can you remember that
15 A. No, I can't. Why my ID was taken, whether it was taken at the
16 beginning or when, I really can't remember anything about the ID.
17 Q. You can look at page 83 of your interview. He says here, "Here,
18 this is your ID. I'm giving it back to you."
19 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated]
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just a moment. [Interpretation] Just a moment,
21 Your Honours, please. Bear with me. I'm sorry, I'm not in a position to
22 give you the number. I can't find it.
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's get on with the B/C/S version for
24 the moment.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. So you don't remember this particular detail?
2 A. No. I don't remember him giving the ID to me but he did give me
3 back my notebook.
4 Q. One more question. Did you maybe keep the invitation to that
6 A. I believe I have it at home but I'm not sure.
7 Q. Do you remember whether, in that invitation, it says that whatever
8 personal effects you might bring might be taken away from you?
9 A. No.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't have any more questions
11 for this witness, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Who will go next?
13 Madam Nikolic. Madam Nikolic is representing Mr. Drago Nikolic. Please
14 go on.
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stanisic. I will start off with a few
18 clarifications of your previous testimony. Yesterday on page 11623 of the
19 transcript, and even before, when asked a question by my colleague from
20 the Prosecution concerning the guarding of prisoners in the school in
21 Petkovci, you said the prisoners had come with soldiers who were guarding
22 them already and your battalion did not need to participate; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You did not go to that school?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And you know -- and you don't know from which unit those
3 soldier-guards were?
4 A. That's correct, but my deputy supposed, since they had white
5 belts, that they could be from military police.
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Madam Nikolic, just to bear in mind
7 that you should put a pause between question and answer for the sake of
8 interpreters, please. Please proceed.
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will take
11 Q. Let's slow down, both of us. Thank you, Mr. Stanisic.
12 But your deputy did not tell you from which unit that military
13 police was and he didn't know that, did he?
14 A. He didn't.
15 Q. I would like to discuss with you the location of the school. You
16 showed yesterday, and during proofing, you determined the position of the
17 old school and the new school?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the distance between them was 600 to 800 metres, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The new school is removed from the road that goes from Petkovci,
22 from the new school to the old school?
23 A. Could you repeat?
24 Q. According to this aerial photograph, the new school is removed
25 from that road, the main road, that leads to Petkovci?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. There is a field between them, between the road and the school?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I'll show you that aerial photograph again, unmarked, so maybe we
5 can more easily determine where that plateau was that was cleared later.
6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we have in e-court 1352,
7 please? Sorry, 3D152. Could we zoom in a little? Further up, please.
8 That's okay now.
9 Q. I think now, if I'm not mistaken, we can see the new school.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That's the building to the left on this photograph.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us, relative to that building, where
14 is the plateau, before the school looking from the road or behind the
16 A. It's on the left, this smaller white surface above the school.
17 Q. Could you please take that pen -- could the usher please give a
18 pen to the witness to show us where the plateau is?
19 A. [Marks].
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we turn this picture to make
21 it easier for the witness by 45 degrees to the right? 90 degrees, my
22 colleague corrects me, 90 degrees to the right?
23 JUDGE KWON: Just to ignore this marking for the moment. Yes, we
24 can do that.
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Could we go down a
1 little? Sorry. Could we see a little further up, just to see the school
2 building? I think this is all right. Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Stanisic, is it now clear to you that this is the same
4 photograph, the same building, or are you now confused?
5 A. Yes. I can see it, it's the same photograph. But I put the
6 marking a little further up than necessary.
7 Q. I will now ask you to make a circle around the same plateau.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Put the letter "P" for plateau.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And the date in the right, bottom corner, with your initials.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And just another question regarding this photograph. From the
14 main road, since the facade of the school faces the road, the front side
15 faces the road, can you see the plateau from the road?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you. And I thank the usher for her assistance.
18 Now, I would like to ask you about the time that your assistant
19 commander -- I think we can remove this exhibit now.
20 You were asked yesterday about the time that Mr. Marko Milosevic
21 spent in meeting with Beara and Nikolic at Petkovci. From what I
22 understood from your testimony, Milosevic didn't go to a meeting, he just
23 went to convey a message?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Because he didn't know who would be at the school?
1 A. He didn't.
2 Q. Thank you. When you were talking yesterday about the visit to the
3 brigade command on the invitation that you received on the 14th of July,
4 that's page 11598 of the transcript, you said you departed for the brigade
5 around 11.00, together with your soldiers?
6 A. I said between 11.00 and 12.00, I departed for the brigade.
7 Q. You mean the brigade command in Zvornik?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you remember when you arrived, approximately?
10 A. It could have been 12.00, between 12.00 and 1300 hours.
11 Q. And there, you met with the duty operations officer?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you meet with any other officer of the Zvornik Brigade at that
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you know Drago Nikolic, assistant Chief of Staff or rather
17 assistant commander for security?
18 A. No [as interpreted].
19 Q. Did you see Drago Nikolic on that day, on the 14th of July, at the
20 building called Standard?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you see or hear from Drago Nikolic during those days?
23 A. Neither.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
25 Your Honours, thank you.
1 JUDGE KWON: Just lets confirm whether the witness actually said
2 no when asked whether he knew Drago Nikolic.
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] He said yes, if I'm not mistaken.
4 I'm sorry, I didn't see this.
5 Q. Mr. Stanisic, did you know Drago Nikolic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And to my last question, when I asked you if you had seen or heard
8 from Drago Nikolic during those days, your answer was --
9 A. No.
10 Q. You said, "I neither saw nor heard from Drago Nikolic."
11 A. I neither heard nor -- from nor saw Drago Nikolic.
12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Madam Fauveau? She is representing
14 General Miletic. Please go ahead, Madam Fauveau-Ivanovic.
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
17 Q. Sir, yesterday you spoke about that discussion you had with
18 Dragan Obrenovic before the first time you were interviewed by the OTP. I
19 would like to know about this conversation with Dragan Obrenovic. It was
20 not spontaneous. You were invited by Dragan Obrenovic?
21 A. Well, the then-commander, Dragan Obrenovic, invited me to his
22 office to talk. I didn't know what it was all about.
23 Q. And when you say Commander Dragan Obrenovic, at that time
24 Dragan Obrenovic was in the same brigade as you, he was commander of the
25 brigade where you were an officer, a superior officer?
1 A. Yes. At that time, I was battalion commander and he was brigade
2 commander, and he was free to invite me or summon me at any time to
3 discuss whatever he required, in view of my duties. I didn't know why he
4 was inviting me to talk on that particular day.
5 Q. And in fact, during that talk, Dragan Obrenovic suggested to you
6 that you shouldn't reveal certain things during the interview you were
7 going to have with the OTP?
8 A. Well, since I was about to go to Banja Luka to have that
9 interview, he was aware of that, and we were just talking because he had
10 already been there once or twice, I can't remember any more, and quite
11 simply I asked him what it all looked like, what things are discussed,
12 what the relationship is, but when I asked him whether -- what to say if
13 they asked me whether there had been any cleaning up of the school and the
14 plateau, he said that it is not advisable and that's what I said yesterday
15 in my testimony.
16 Q. Really, since he was your superior commander, you followed his
17 instructions during your interview with the investigators of the OTP?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I would like to ask you a couple of questions concerning the 14th
20 of July 1995. If I understood correctly, you were aware that the
21 prisoners were going to arrive at Petkovci in the afternoon of the 14th.
22 A. I found out about those prisoners in the afternoon, not before.
23 Q. And you did hear the shooting in the afternoon of the 14th, you
24 heard the shots?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. But you did not go to see what had happened?
2 A. No, because my deputy informed me that he had been notified of the
3 impending arrival of the prisoners to the school, that they would be
4 accommodated at the school, that no security is required, so I didn't need
5 to go to the school.
6 Q. Did you go after the departure of the prisoners to that school?
7 A. Sometime later, I did go to the school, but maybe 10 days later,
8 because we used the plateau for our own leisure activities. There was a
9 football pitch there and whenever we had some spare time, we came there
10 for recreation.
11 Q. Do you remember if you were able to see when you entered the
12 school any traces of gunfire on the walls of the school?
13 A. I didn't go inside the school because it was locked up.
14 Q. Is it correct that that school had previously been used in 1992
15 and 1993 to accommodate certain military units?
16 A. I don't know in which period it was, but for a while sabotage and
17 reconnaissance units were put up there but I can't remember if it was
18 before or after.
19 Q. Could we show to the witness 5D302?
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry, we haven't
21 yet received the translation of this document.
22 Q. Sir, can you confirm that it is an order from the Zvornik Brigade
23 command dated 14 September 1993?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And for the benefit of the people who do not speak B/C/S, could
1 you read paragraph 2 of this order?
2 A. "I order... " You mean this.
3 Q. Yes, but only what is written after number 2. It's the second
4 paragraph, what follows after number 2.
5 A. "The trainee unit to be accommodated in the area of Petkovci
6 village in the building of the primary school and while training is to be
7 carried out in the broader area of Petkovci villages and Klisa -- Petkovci
8 and Klisa villages."
9 Q. Does this refresh your memory, namely that sometimes military
10 units were put up at that school?
11 A. For the duration of my stay there, the 6th Battalion was
12 established. In 1993, I was not at Petkovci. I was further away, in
13 Memici or at Malasic so that in 1993, I did not serve in Petkovci at all
14 as a commander.
15 Q. Do you remember that indeed you spoke in your interview of year
16 2000 of the fact that sometimes military units were put up at that school,
17 that the soldiers consumed a lot of alcohol and shooting incidents
18 occurred sometimes? It's page 38 in the interview of year 2000.
19 A. Yes. I recall that. When it was necessary to go out into the
20 field somewhere, then the unit that was supposed to go would assemble and
21 on those occasions they would be put up at the school. But that was as
22 part of the preparations for departure into the field, into one of the
24 Q. Well, that's all that I was asking. And in fact, you can confirm
25 today as well that sometimes shooting occurred, shooting incidents
1 occurred, when those troops were in the school building?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You said yesterday that in 1995, in July 1995, that belonged to
4 the civilian authorities?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it true that in July 1995, in the territory that you call the
7 free territory, where there was no combat, civilian authorities operated
9 A. To the best of my knowledge, they functioned.
10 Q. And when you received the message that villagers were requiring a
11 truck in order to clean out the school, did those villagers ask just for a
12 truck or did they want somebody from the brigade -- sorry, somebody from
13 the battalion, to help clean up?
14 A. As from that call from the communications centre of the battalion,
15 it was about the villagers who had come to ask for a truck to clean up the
16 plateau of the school, nothing else.
17 Q. Do you know if the civilian authorities, the authorities who were
18 in charge of that school at Petkovci, had been consulted before the
19 prisoners were placed inside the school?
20 A. No. As battalion commander, it was not my responsibility to deal
21 with such matters. It would be the military department. If a school or
22 any other facility needed to be requisitioned for the needs of the army, a
23 request would need to be submitted and then the authorities would either
24 approve or not approve that this facility be given for the army.
25 Q. And while the prisoners were in the school, you did not receive
1 any calls from the civilian authorities asking you what had happened at
2 the school, who was at the school, or anything of that kind?
3 A. No. I did not receive any calls from them.
4 Q. Is it correct that one of your responsibilities was to report to
5 your brigade, to your superior command?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you know that the brigade would then forward combat reports to
8 its own superior command, namely the Drina Corps?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you were also aware that combat brigades [as interpreted] sent
11 by the brigade had to precisely reflect the situation on the ground?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In fact, you, people like you, people at battalion level, had to
14 draft the reports to the brigade so that the brigade could inform the
15 corps of the situation on the ground exactly as it was?
16 A. Yes. But as for the area of defence of my battalion and combat
17 readiness within my battalion. That was the subject of my reports.
18 JUDGE KWON: I'd like to point out for record, line 4 of page 18,
19 which reads "combat brigade" should be reading as "combat reports." Thank
20 you, Madam.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Is it correct that you did not send your report to the brigade to
23 inform them that the prisoners had arrived to the school in Petkovci?
24 A. I did not send that report for the simple reason that the brigade
25 was the one that informed me of the impending arrival of the prisoners, so
1 I didn't send that report.
2 Q. And you didn't inform the brigade of the shooting in Petkovci
4 A. No, I did not.
5 Q. And after you learned of the presence of certain bodies around the
6 school, you did not inform the brigade of that either?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's a misstatement of the evidence.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] If the Prosecutor means the
9 question, I don't see any misstatement. Where is the misstatement? Where
10 is the statement?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: He testified that he informed his commander at the
12 time on the -- I believe it was the 15th, Obrenovic, about the bodies.
13 It's my view that a question cannot misstate the evidence to such a
14 degree. It misleads the witness, it misleads the Court.
15 JUDGE KWON: In light of Mr. McCloskey's intervention, could you
16 reformulate your question again?
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will show this
18 witness a number of documents. I believe this will be a simpler course to
20 Can we show the witness P326?
21 Q. Sir, this is a regular combat report issued by the Zvornik Brigade
22 that was drafted on the 14th of July 1995. I would like you to read this
23 report, which only has one page, and after having done that, can you
24 please tell me whether there is a reference in this document to the
25 prisoners in Petkovci?
1 Can we scroll down, please, so that the witness can see the bottom
2 of the document?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is it true that there is no reference in this document to the
5 prisoners in Petkovci?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can we now show to the witness Exhibit P327?
8 This is not an extremely good copy. However, I hope you will
9 still be able to read it. Can you see at the beginning, although it is
10 not very clear, that this is an interim report issued by the Zvornik
11 Brigade on the 14th of July?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. At the bottom of the document, can we please show the seal and
14 according to the seal on the document, it arises that the document was
15 dispatched on the 15th July 1995, at 0110 hours.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And now could you please make an effort and try and read the
18 entire text? Can we now place the entire text on the screen for the
19 witness? And after that I'm going to ask you whether this report was sent
20 between 14 and 15 July, and whether it contains any reference to the
21 prisoners in Petkovci.
22 A. Your Honours, can we enlarge the letters a bit?
23 JUDGE KWON: Give it a try. Now, can you read now? We enlarged a
24 little bit. Could you take a look?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try. I'll do my best.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, maybe a hard copy
2 would be easier for the witness to read.
3 JUDGE KWON: Please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Tonight around 2020 hours in the
5 general sector of Maricici, a large group of Muslims passed through and
6 continued towards the Zvornik-Caparde road. The column, which was between
7 2 and 3 kilometres long --"
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Stanisic, you are not required to read aloud all
9 the entire text. What you were asked for is that whether, after reading
10 it, if you could answer whether this report was sent between 14 and 15th
11 July and whether it contains any reference to the prisoners in Petkovci.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 I've read the document.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
15 Q. [Microphone not activated] -- In Petkovci? Sir, can you confirm
16 that this document does not make a reference to the prisoners in Petkovci?
17 A. Yes, I can.
18 Q. Can we now show to the witness Exhibit P328?
19 Sir, can you see that this is another regular combat report issued
20 on the 15th of July 1995 by the Zvornik Brigade?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. One more time, I will kindly ask you to read this document, which
23 is a bit longer than a page, and once again confirm for me that no
24 reference is made to the prisoners in Petkovci in this document.
25 Could you please inform us when you're finished the reading of the
1 part that is on the screen so that we could lower the page?
2 A. Yes, if you could.
3 JUDGE KWON: While he's reading this, I don't take it that the
4 Prosecution is challenging this point.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, we'll stipulate that it's not there,
6 Your Honour. I don't know why he has to read this.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Does it mean that the Prosecutor
8 agrees that the Zvornik Brigade did not inform the Drina Corps about the
9 prisoners in Petkovci and the killings that took place around the school
10 in Petkovci?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't agree with that.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] In that case, Mr. President, I don't
13 have any other option.
14 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed, yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can the page be lowered, please?
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we please show the rest of the
17 document to the witness?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please move on.
19 Go on, please.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, have you been able to find a reference to the prisoners in
22 the document anywhere?
23 A. The prisoners are not mentioned anywhere in this document.
24 Q. Can we now show the witness Exhibit P329?
25 JUDGE KWON: Madam Fauveau, to the same effect?
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE KWON: If the Prosecution agrees that there is no mention,
3 no reference to the prisoners or bodies in Petkovci, I don't think there
4 is any point to ask the witness to read the whole document.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: This next document is a bit more interesting,
6 Mr. President.
7 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes. Let's see that. Yes.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I absolutely agree with my learned
9 friend in that respect.
10 Q. Sir, this is a document which was issued on the 15th of July 1995.
11 This is another interim combat report, isn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can we scroll down just a little bit?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: This document, Your Honour, I would think we
15 should give the witness a chance to read the whole document.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in this document, a
18 reference is made to the prisoners and in order to avoid wasting time, I
19 would like to show the witness particularly the part where prisoners are
20 mentioned, but if my learned friend insists on the witness reading the
21 entire document, I will not object to that.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I do object to the -- to informing the witness of
23 her -- the theory of her case or her cross-examination, but the first part
24 of the document talks about his -- the combat situation, his battalion. I
25 think to put the context of this, that he ought to be able to read the
1 whole thing. It's very short.
2 JUDGE KWON: I would agree. This is not very long; I would allow
3 the witness to read through this document. Let's scroll up a little bit
4 so that he can follow, from the first -- from the first part.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you scroll up or scroll down?
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we show the rest of the
7 document, if there is more?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Move on, please.
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we show the rest of the
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes?
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You could see that this document speaks of the prisoners who were
14 in the school?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it shows the concern of the brigade command about the safety
17 issues in the region of the brigade?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But not for a single moment does the document speak of the shots
20 or the murder or killing of the prisoners?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Can we now show to the witness Exhibit P330?
23 Sir, this was issued on the 16th of July 1995. It is a regular
24 combat report issued by the Zvornik Brigade; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can we see, at the very bottom of the document, where you can see
2 the seal, the stamp? Can you see that this document was dispatched on 16
3 July at 1810 hours; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And on the 16th of July, in the morning, you had your conversation
6 with Dragan Obrenovic, is that true?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you please look at the document and tell me whether a
9 reference is made in this document to the prisoners in the Petkovci
11 Can we please show the beginning of the document, the beginning of
12 the text, to the witness?
13 A. Move on, please.
14 Q. Can we show the rest of the document, please? Can we show the
15 rest of the document to the witness, please?
16 A. Go on, please.
17 Q. I believe that this is the end.
18 Is it true that the document which was sent at 1810, after your
19 conversation with Dragan Obrenovic, does not mention the prisoners in
20 Petkovci and the developments that took place in Petkovci on the 14th and
21 15th of July?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Can we show paragraph 1 of this document? In paragraph 1 of this
24 document, of this report, there is a reference to a Muslim attack at
25 positions held, among others, by your battalion; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And indeed, during those days, you sustained attacks from the
3 Muslim side and you had losses, soldiers were wounded and killed?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can we show 5D303 to the witness?
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, we haven't yet received
7 the translation for this document and, on top of that, the copy is very
9 Q. Witness, do you have before you an order to attack, issued by the
10 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the command of the 245th Mountain Brigade,
11 dated 13th July 1995?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can we show the bottom of this page, paragraph 2? Could you
14 please read this paragraph, the one that begins with "units belonging to
15 the 28th Division"? Could you please read it aloud?
16 A. "Units of the 28th Division of ground forces decided to break out
17 from the circle, from the encirclement, through enemy lines along the
18 following axis, column: Srebrenica, Konjevic Polje, Cerska, Kamenica,
19 Crni Vrh, Baljkovica, and Crni Vrh, Sprecanska Dolina and along the
20 axis --"
21 Q. This is enough for me. Is it true that the areas you just
22 mentioned, this axis of movement of the 28th Division, was in the vicinity
23 of your battalion?
24 A. Crni Vrh was the closest to the battalion.
25 Q. Can we now show this witness page 3?
1 I hope that you are going to be able to see a little better,
2 paragraph 5, top of the page. These are tasks assigned to this unit of
3 the BH army, to commence an attack as specified in this paragraph, along
4 the axis specified in the paragraph.
5 A. Yes. I've read it.
6 Q. Part of this attack was against your forces, correct?
7 A. Yes. Baljkovica, Tisova Kosa and Nezuk Parlog.
8 Q. Just a moment ago, you answered a couple of questions concerning
9 that logbook, that diary you had and that the investigator took from you
10 during your interview in 2002. What I would like to know is this: Do you
11 know that at the time you said that this diary was not relevant to this
12 case, with the exception of the end of that diary, which you discussed
13 with the investigator of the Tribunal?
14 A. Yes. This diary was my preparation. After the first interview I
15 made certain notes to remind myself of what I said during the first
17 Q. And the representatives of the OTP copied that part as well?
18 A. Yes. They copied the set, all of my notes, and gave me a copy to
19 separate what is not relevant to them. But I said, "You've already copied
20 it all. You can keep it all." That's at least what I remember.
21 Q. I wanted to show you your diary so that you can show us which part
22 is relevant.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if it
24 would be more judicious to give a hard copy to the witness so he can
25 review it during the break so we don't waste any more time because the
1 break is in three minutes.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We would agree unless the Prosecution object to
3 that idea.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. I think that's a good idea and we've got a
5 copy so that would facilitate it.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Shall we take a break now?
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, and after the
8 break, I would have just a few questions about the diary and would finish
10 JUDGE KWON: We'll break for 25 minutes.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic, please continue.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Witness, did you have occasion to see a copy of your journal, of
16 your diary?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you find the part relevant to the discussion you had with the
20 A. No. There is a mistake here. This is not the diary that was
21 taken from me during the interview.
22 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must ask you to urge
24 the OTP to let us have the copy of the diary that was taken from the
25 witness during the interview and that contains the part relevant to this
2 JUDGE KWON: Personal note, do you have it with you,
3 Mr. McCloskey?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: We had endeavoured to find all that. We thought
5 that was the one we were talking about. We'll see if there is something
7 This is the original that we believed was connected to this
8 interview. Sometimes these things get confused but perhaps the witness
9 can help us.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let the witness take a look at it.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is not the diary. There
12 is another diary.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could ask, is this your diary, that one I
14 just gave you?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's my diary, but it was a
16 smaller agenda book. What I have here was a military booklet that was in
17 common use in the army. And that's what I used in the army in 1996.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: As far as I recall, there is one mention of one
19 diary, and this is the diary that we have that's connected to this
20 interview and it is his diary. So we'll continue to look but there may be
21 a --
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Maybe the witness is confused. Perhaps we're
24 confused. But I don't think so.
25 JUDGE KWON: I don't think the witness has been confused on this
1 but can we explore whether we can pursue this issue without seeing the
2 actual agenda or what would you recommend?
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked a couple of
4 questions concerning this diary of the witness, precisely in order to find
5 out where the relevant passage is because I was unable to find it myself
6 and now I understand why. I don't know whether the witness can clarify
7 any further. But it's clear from his testimony today, and from his
8 interview with the Prosecution in 2002, that there was a diary or a
9 notebook containing several pages relevant to the interview the witness
10 had with the investigator of the OTP in 2002. Maybe the investigator
11 could provide more clarification when he comes to testify because he's on
12 the witness list. We will take it up with him. But in any case I'm
13 convinced that there is another notebook because that is abundantly clear
14 from the interview of this witness with the OTP and I wanted to ask for
15 these pages to be admitted into evidence.
16 JUDGE KWON: And apart from that issue, you're done?
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Mr. President. I'm sorry.
18 I have completed my cross-examination.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, there is only one notebook that we
21 copied. This is the notebook we copied from the interview. And that's
22 the situation. I will, of course, look into the possibility of a second
23 notebook but I don't believe there is any suggestion of a second notebook
24 but I will, of course, look.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please take a look again. And let's leave that
1 matter there and shall we proceed? I take it Defence for Mr. Borovcanin
2 will ask some questions.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, indeed we did ask for 15 minutes
4 to cross-examine the witness but after we heard his testimony we decided
5 not to cross-examine him.
6 JUDGE KWON: And my understanding is that General Gvero's team is
7 not minded to ask any question.
8 MR. JOSSE: Your understanding is correct, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE KWON: How about Mr. Pandurevic's Defence?
10 MR. HAYNES: Yes, we are going to ask this witness some questions,
11 probably for about half an hour.
12 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed, Mr. Haynes.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stanisic, how are you?
15 A. All right.
16 Q. As you've heard me say, I've probably got about half an hour's
17 worth of questions for you so you're coming near to the end of your ordeal
18 you'll be pleased to hear. And I want to start by showing you some
19 documents on the computer screen which I'm going to ask you, with the aid
20 of the lady usher, to mark for us. So can we start please by putting into
21 e-court 3D94? And I wonder whether Mr. Stanisic could be shown how to use
22 the pen to mark this document.
23 Take a little time, Mr. Stanisic, to orient yourself on that map
24 but is that area familiar to you? You should see in the top right-hand
25 corner Klisa and then coming across, Nezuk, Baljkovica, Delici, roughly
1 the area in which your battalion operated; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what I'd like you to do, if you could take up a pen, which
4 you'll be provided with now, is to mark firstly on that map the defence
5 line of the 6th Battalion.
6 Before you mark it, can we just move the map slightly to the left
7 so that it includes Petkovci? A little more. Just a touch more. That's
8 perfect. Thank you.
9 A. [Marks]. I made a mistake.
10 Q. Well, rub it out and correct it.
11 A. Yes. I'd like to mark the 6th Infantry Battalion. Is that
13 Q. Yes. I'd like you to put "6 PB" there, please, if you would.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And while you're there, would you mark, as best you can, the line
16 of the battalion whose defence line was immediately to the left of yours,
17 and, again, put the number and the name of that battalion?
18 A. [Marks]. Yes.
19 Q. And it's impossible for you to mark it but can you just tell us
20 the number and the name of the battalion which had a defence line to the
21 right of yours?
22 A. 2nd Infantry Battalion.
23 Q. Thank you very much. Now would you just mark in relation to your
24 battalion where your forward command post was?
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. And would you write under that "IKM"?
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And your rear units, please, if you could mark them on?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And just put "RU" there, please, if you would.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And lastly, they are obvious on the map, but would you just locate
8 for us where the battalion command was in Petkovci, as best you can?
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And we can -- I mean, would you put "KM" there, please?
11 A. [Marks]. "KM"?
12 Q. Yes, please.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And lastly, I believe that in Klisa, there was some brigade
15 artillery units. Would you mark as best you can on the map where they
16 would be and put appropriate initials there?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: He is agreeing that there is an artillery unit
18 there? It's not clear from the record.
19 MR. HAYNES:
20 Q. Do you agree that there were brigade artillery units in Klisa?
21 That's a question for you, Mr. Stanisic.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Well, since you agree that, would you, as best you can, make a
24 mark to indicate where they were?
25 A. [Marks]. Maybe a bit of map is missing. Maybe they were further
1 up but they were at the forward post. They occupied the highest elevation
2 at Klisa.
3 Q. Thank you very much. Would you just put under the mark you've
4 made "BAU", brigade artillery units? And then we are finished with
5 marking this map.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Thank you. Now, the bottom right-hand corner, would you just
8 put "OS" for Ostoja Stanisic and put today's date, which I think is the
9 17th of May.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And if that could be preserved, please?
12 And could we next have in e-court, please, P2815? Perfect. Thank
13 you very much.
14 I wonder whether Mr. Stanisic could be provided, please, with a
15 pen in blue, for example, a colour different to that in which the map is
16 already marked.
17 What I'd like you to do for me, if you can, here, Mr. Stanisic, is
18 firstly indicate in blue on the map the road into Petkovci from Zvornik.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Thank you. And would you continue that route as if you were
21 driving all the way up and into the back of the school where the plateau
23 A. [Marks]. Do you want me to go to the crossroads or do you want me
24 to go even beyond the crossroads?
25 Q. Well, it looks to me from this image as if the route into the
1 school would involve you turning right up the right-hand side of the
2 school and going into the back of it. Would that be right?
3 A. I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand your question.
4 Q. Well, at the crossroads, which way would you go to get to the back
5 of the school?
6 A. You want me to draw that?
7 Q. If you would, that would be very kind.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you. And at the far right-hand end of that blue line that
10 you've drawn, would you just put an arrow and write underneath
11 it "Zvornik"?
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Excellent. Now I'd like you, if you would, to show us the
14 direction a vehicle would travel to go to the dam at Petkovci from the
16 A. Do you want me to draw a new line next to the one that I have
17 already drawn on the map?
18 JUDGE KWON: Could you use a different colour?
19 MR. HAYNES: No, it's probably simpler, if it means going in the
20 same direction, namely towards Zvornik, if he writes "dam" underneath the
21 line as well and another arrow.
22 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
23 MR. HAYNES:
24 Q. Thank you very much. Just before we leave this, looking at the
25 new school, which is marked with a "2" on the existing plan, we can see
1 certain buildings all around it, quite a number to the right and the left.
2 They are all houses, are they?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I wonder if you'd mind just circling two or three of them and
5 writing "houses" underneath that.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Thank you very much. Now, if you wouldn't mind, I'd suggest, in
8 the bottom left-hand corner this time, again putting your initials and
9 today's date on that item.
10 A. [Marks]. 17th today?
11 Q. Unless it's changed in the last ten minutes, yes.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Thank you. Now I'd just like to clarify a few things you've said
14 over the course of the last two days. Do I understand you correctly to
15 say that a battalion, according to your understanding of military law, had
16 no zone of responsibility?
17 A. No. The battalion had a defence sector, whereas when you say the
18 area of responsibility, you mean a brigade.
19 Q. Thank you very much. And just briefly, in words, would you
20 describe what you regarded to be the defence sector of the 6th Battalion?
21 A. When I say a defence sector, I mean a defence line and customarily
22 on the right-hand side a point is marked where that line starts and along
23 that line, several points are marked which are typical of that line, and
24 then on the left flank, another point is determined, be it a river, a
25 facility, and then the sector is also defined in depth and this is usually
1 2.5 to 3 kilometres. Then places are defined and in my case this was
2 Kitovnica and Grbavci.
3 Q. And so to clear that up, your understanding of your responsibility
4 was that you had to defend a line and an area 2 and a half to three
5 kilometres deep from that line; is that right?
6 A. I did not fully understand what you're asking me.
7 Q. That's probably because it was a bad question. I'm going to move
8 on. Was it your understanding that you had any responsibility for what
9 went on in civil buildings in Petkovci?
10 A. No. I did not have any responsibility whatsoever for these
11 civilian facilities. As a commander, my duty was to be on the defence
12 line, i.e. at the forward command post. More specifically, my duty was to
13 look after the combat readiness of my battalion. Also, in case of attack,
14 it was my duty to defend and protect my positions.
15 Q. Now, you described for us briefly yesterday the procedure by which
16 a unit of the army could mobilise or requisition a building such as the
17 school. So far as you were aware, was that done in relation to the
18 Petkovci school, by either your battalion or your brigade?
19 A. As for the school in Petkovci, I don't know whether it had been
20 requisitioned. As a commander of that battalion, I did not need the
21 school, and it was not requisitioned for my battalion. I never requested
22 the school to be requisitioned for me.
23 Q. Thank you. And you were asked some questions a little while ago
24 about the use of the school in 1993 as a training facility. In 1995, had
25 your battalion ever made use of the new school at Petkovci?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, can we come, please, to the 14th of July? On the 14th of
3 July, you took some men to brigade command for use by Dragan Obrenovic in
4 the Snagovo region; that's correct, isn't it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How long were you at brigade command in dropping off those men?
7 A. I can't remember exactly when they returned. I believe that they
8 had been away from the battalion a couple of days.
9 Q. Sorry, probably my fault, you misunderstood my question. I wanted
10 to know how long you were at brigade command on the 14th of July.
11 A. Maybe an hour or up to an hour, if you're asking me about the
12 time, it was not longer than 60 minutes.
13 Q. Thank you. And did you speak to the duty officer?
14 A. I just handed my troops over. I lined them up, I handed them
15 over. At that moment, my duties were over and done with. From there, I
16 returned to my defence positions.
17 Q. And about what time of day was that?
18 A. I've already said that. It may have been between 12.00 and 1.00.
19 Q. Thank you. And while you were there, did anybody make any mention
20 of prisoners being brought to Petkovci?
21 A. No. Nobody mentioned prisoners.
22 Q. As I understand it, the first you knew about that was a telephone
23 call you received once you had arrived back in Petkovci; is that correct?
24 A. I learned that from my deputy, Milosevic.
25 Q. And how long was that after you'd arrived back?
1 A. I arrived in Petkovci around 1700 hours. If I was at Standard up
2 until 1300, I returned to my defence positions maybe three or four hours
3 after that.
4 Q. And did you learn from Milosevic at what time he'd received the
6 A. He wasn't very specific about the time. He only informed me that
7 he had been informed about some prisoners being brought to the school. He
8 did not mention the time, I'm sure.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, at that time, the Zvornik Brigade was under the
10 command of Dragan Obrenovic, who was a major; that's right, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you know that the commander of the Zvornik Brigade,
13 Vinko Pandurevic, was a lieutenant-colonel?
14 A. Yes. Just a moment. Could you please repeat your question?
15 Q. Yes. I said did you know that the commander of the Zvornik
16 Brigade at the time was Vinko Pandurevic, who was a lieutenant-colonel?
17 A. Yes. He was a brigade commander, and his deputy was chief
18 Dragan Obrenovic.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, that afternoon, Milosevic received a call which
20 contained a message for a colonel; that's correct, isn't it?
21 A. No. I received the call, and I sent Milosevic to convey the
22 message to whomever was necessary.
23 Q. The point I'm making is yesterday you told us, and it's page 23,
24 line 13, that the message was for a Colonel Beara. That's right, isn't
25 it? You knew the message was for a colonel?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So that was necessarily a message for a man of a higher rank than
3 anybody in the Zvornik Brigade; that's correct, isn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that message was related to prisoners at the Petkovci school,
6 wasn't it?
7 A. The message was, "Inform Colonel Beara."
8 Q. And where did Milosevic have to go to deliver that message?
9 A. He was supposed to go to the new school, or somewhere around the
10 new school. I was told that Colonel Beara is supposed to be somewhere
11 around there.
12 Q. Now, you've already told us that your battalion had nothing to do
13 with guarding these prisoners or anything to do with what was going on at
14 the Petkovci school. That's correct, isn't it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And when you discovered, following the first message relating to
17 the expected arrival of prisoners, and then the second message to deliver
18 a message to a colonel at the new school, did you deduce that this had
19 nothing to do with the brigade either?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell me, what right, power or authority did you have to stop a
22 colonel from carrying out any sort of activity at the Petkovci school?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, vague, "any sort of activity", I think
24 we can -- it doesn't have a lot of relevance when it's that vaguely
1 MR. HAYNES: I'll rephrase it.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 MR. HAYNES:
4 Q. What right did you have to interfere with the actions of a colonel
5 at the Petkovci school?
6 A. As a battalion commander, I was responsible for my unit. If any
7 higher officers from a higher command arrived, they could command me, they
8 could take over the battalion, they could issue orders and I can only be
9 their subordinate.
10 Q. Did you think what was going on at the Petkovci school was under
11 the control of somebody from higher command?
12 A. As soon as the officers from the higher command came and we hadn't
13 been informed about that, we had not received any orders from my command,
14 I suppose that they had the supreme authority and that they held all the
16 Q. Thank you. Now, I think you may have answered this but I'll clear
17 it up just in case you haven't: Did you have a line of direct
18 communication with, for example, the Drina Corps?
19 A. No. I did not have a line of communication with the Drina Corps.
20 Q. And it may sound a stupid question in the light of that but I
21 assume that's equally true of the Main Staff of the VRS, is it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So if somebody wanted to pass a message or deliver a task to an
24 officer from the Drina Corps or the Main Staff of the VRS and he happened
25 to be in your area, how would they have to do that?
1 A. Either directly, by telephone, or -- I don't know how else. From
2 my post, nobody ever spoke to any higher command or the Drina Corps or the
3 General Staff and so on and so forth.
4 Q. Well, was another option to pass a message through brigade command
5 at Standard?
6 A. Yes. It was possible.
7 Q. And the two communications received on the 14th of July, did
8 either of them have the force of orders or were they just messages?
9 A. They were messages.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to move on, please, to the vehicle logs,
11 and I hope we can clear this up.
12 MR. HAYNES: Can we have in e-court, please, first of all, P945?
13 And we'll need the next page, please. Sorry, this is my mistake. I
14 wanted to start with P944, so can we go back to that? And I think it will
15 be the third page of this document. Thank you very much, indeed.
16 Q. Now, you've seen this document before. This is the document that
17 relates to the vehicle that's shown as going to Srebrenica on the 15th of
18 July. It's right, isn't it, that you provided a number of men to take
19 part in the assault force on Srebrenica, Tactical Group 1?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And I think it's equally right that two of those men were killed
22 in action and one went missing?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you tell us the name of the man who went missing?
25 A. I can't remember.
1 Q. Okay. But in any event, I think you were asked by his brother
2 whether he could go to Srebrenica on the 15th of July to look for him; is
3 that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And who went with the man's brother?
6 A. Vlado Josic drove, and two other men went with him.
7 Q. Thank you. And in relation to that, was it this vehicle that we
8 see on this log that they took?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you know that they were gone for a period of 24 hours or more;
11 is that right?
12 A. They departed Petkovci at 8.00, and I didn't know when they would
13 return or how long they would stay in Srebrenica.
14 Q. That was your state of knowledge before they went, but you know
15 now that they did go and they were gone for a day or more; that's right,
16 isn't it?
17 A. Yes. They left on the 15th and they returned on the 16th, they
18 returned to Petkovci on the 16th.
19 Q. So in relation to the vehicle records that we see here, any
20 suggestion that this vehicle might have been used to go to Brana on the
21 15th is just simply inaccurate, isn't it?
22 A. I said that yesterday as well, and to the investigators when they
23 asked me, that this seemed illogical to me, that a vehicle should go at
24 8.00 to Srebrenica, return at 10.00. It's undoable. So I cannot see how
25 this could be possible, Petkovci-Brana-Petkovci on the 15th of July. It's
1 illogical and it sounds impossible.
2 Q. It's also right, isn't it, that when you were spoken to by the
3 investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor, you were perfectly happy
4 to tell them everything you knew about the two men who might have driven
5 this vehicle?
6 A. Well, I explained to them that Vlado Josic volunteered to go,
7 since we had no driver at the moment and there were quite a few problems,
8 namely there were many Muslim soldiers around. It was not free territory
9 yet. So he volunteered to do a favour to the brother of the deceased. It
10 turned out later that the man was deceased, killed somewhere in the area
11 of Srebrenica.
12 Q. Does Vlado Josic still live in Zvornik?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did you tell the investigators from the Office of the
15 Prosecutor that and where he could be found?
16 A. Yes. He lives in Kozluk, actually.
17 Q. Thank you. So you told them everything you could to verify what
18 you were saying about these vehicle records; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can we now go to P945, please? Sorry, just before we do, would
21 you just confirm that on the 14th of July, that this vehicle is not shown
22 as going anywhere near Bratunac?
23 A. 14th of July, Petkovci-Zvornik-Petkovci. That's the only
24 itinerary I see here.
25 Q. Can we see P945? And it's page 2. Now, for the 15th of July,
1 there are no fewer than three entries, are there?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. And the first of those relates to the trips to Brana; is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. But they can't have taken very long, can they, because we see that
7 after that, the vehicle carried out two further assignments and I just
8 wonder whether you'd read out where it went later in the day?
9 A. Petkovci-Standard-Parlog-Petkovci.
10 Q. And the one beneath that?
11 A. Petkovci-Celopek-Petkovci.
12 Q. It was the 15th of July that you were asked for a truck by the
13 villagers; that's right, isn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In relation to the top entry there, where it says four journeys, 1
16 plus 8, does that help us as to whether there were eight people on each
17 journey or eight people moved in total?
18 A. I really can't interpret this myself. I can't make it out.
19 Frankly, I did not deal with any travel orders. It was the assistant
20 commander for logistics who did that. That is the commander of the
21 logistics platoon, so I can't understand this.
22 Q. Mr. Stanisic, that's precisely my point. It's impossible to
23 interpret what that means, isn't it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But equally what we can say, if this record is accurate, is that
1 that vehicle was put to substantial other use on the 15th of July, wasn't
2 it? So the journeys to Brana can only have taken a very short period of
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And again, can you just confirm for us that in the prior days to
6 the 15th of July, there is no suggestion of this vehicle being anywhere
7 near Bratunac?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So if there were evidence in the case that somebody who was taken
10 to the Petkovci dam was taken in a vehicle they had ridden in from
11 Bratunac, it can't have been either of these vehicles, can it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Well that -- we can take that document off
14 e-court now. Thank you.
15 I'm sorry, Mr. Stanisic, I was just talking to Mr. Sarapa for a
16 minute. I didn't mean to be rude.
17 I want to go back to something I was asking you about earlier.
18 The number of men that you contributed to the Tactical Group 1 was 20,
19 wasn't it?
20 A. It's the tactical group at Srebrenica.
21 Q. Yes. That's correct.
22 A. 20 or 40. I mixed it up. I know that I gave 40 to Obrenovic.
23 Now, whether 20 or 40 went to Srebrenica --
24 Q. Well, perhaps I can show you something to refresh your memory.
25 It's 7D241, please. The paragraphs of this document are numbered, and if
1 the witness could be shown paragraph 2.3(C), please? Thank you very much.
2 Would you look at paragraph 2.3(C) and see if that helps you
3 ascertain how many men you gave to the tactical force that went to
5 A. 20 plus 1.
6 Q. Thank you. Does that help you remember now how many, in fact, you
7 gave to the tactical group?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. When did those men return to the battalion?
10 A. It was on the 16th or 17th. They did not immediately return to
11 the battalion. Some stayed at home leave, although all of them were
12 supposed to go back to combat lines.
13 Q. Thank you. And the 40 men you took to Standard on the 14th, did
14 they return to the battalion sometime later?
15 A. No. They came back later. I don't know the exact date but later.
16 Q. Now, the line of the 6th Battalion, which you helpfully drew for
17 us at the start of your cross-examination by me, was that a line that was
18 regularly attacked by the 2nd Corps of the Bosnian army?
19 A. Well, there were sporadic attacks and shelling, because we
20 happened to be on the main axis where Muslim units passed through even
21 before, and sometimes even passed through our trenches when they could.
22 So we sustained quite a few attacks, mainly gunfire and shelling, but
23 there was no hand-to-hand combat.
24 Q. Were the defence positions of the 6th Battalion well established
25 and easy to defend?
1 A. Due to the layout of the terrain, the defence positions of the
2 6th Battalion were well fortified and well secured by artillery. We had
3 our own support too, plus the support of the MAD at Klisa, the mixed
4 artillery battalion, which had a good view of my combat lines.
5 Q. I wish you'd told me that earlier because then we would have MAD
6 on that plan and not BAU, but never mind. You were able to call on their
7 support readily easily, were you?
8 A. Yes. All battalions had their maps, with obstructive fire lines
9 drawn in. I could call the mixed artillery battalion at any time and
10 mention a certain number outside my line so that they could target a
11 certain location, namely the Muslim lines, if there happened to be an
13 Q. Thank you. And did I understand you to say that the battalion was
14 equipped with its own artillery?
15 A. It's actually mortars, 82 millimetres. They provided this
16 obstructive fire, protective fire, on all axes from which the enemy could
17 attack, all these axes are drawn in the map with a description of when and
18 how the enemy could attack.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, during the whole period of the war, were the
20 defence lines of the 6th Battalion ever broken?
21 A. As far as the 6th Battalion is concerned, the one I commanded in
22 1996, the lines were never broken. There were several reorganisations
23 within the brigade so we had at times more than one 6th Battalion in
24 different places. The 6th Battalion used to be referred to as the
25 5th Battalion. So I'm referring to the 6th Battalion that I commanded
1 until the end of 1995.
2 Q. Thank you. And during the fighting of the 15th and 16th of July
3 of 1995, did the 6th Battalion manage to hold its lines against attack
4 from the 2nd Corps?
5 A. Yes. We had an attack on the left flank and managed to fend it
6 off, although one trench was hit from a hand-held launcher. The fighting
7 lasted for a while but the enemy was eventually unable to get into our
8 trenches and push us back from our positions.
9 Q. And did you suffer any attack from the rear, from the
10 28th Division that was coming up from Srebrenica?
11 A. Yes. For a while, I was caught in cross-fire from Motovska Kosa
12 and from Nezuk. We got off unscathed but there were also artillery
13 attacks on us and I lost two of my men, whereas six or seven were wounded.
14 Q. And the losses were suffered by artillery attacks from the
15 2nd Corps; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You say you were in cross-fire for a while. Did you deal with
18 that and did that situation cease, so far as you were concerned?
19 A. Yes. It ceased on the 16th, around 10.00 or 11.00. At any case,
20 it was in the morning that the fire stopped and there was a lull, fire
21 ceased from both sides.
22 Q. And I think you watched from your positions the passage of the
23 column through the corridor between the 16th and 17th of July, didn't you?
24 A. Yes. I was at the left flank and from a small elevation, where
25 there was a trench, I observed the passage of Muslim troops in convoy from
1 Motovo to Nezuk.
2 Q. And how long did that go on and how many people do you think went
3 through it?
4 A. The movement started in the afternoon and lasted until the small
5 hours, in which time a great mass of people passed through. It was a huge
6 number of people, a long column, maybe a kilometre or two long. But I
7 cannot tell you how many. The grass was completely eradicated on that
9 Q. Just to clarify something, the column, the passage of the column
10 went over two days, didn't it, one afternoon on the 16th and then again
11 until the late afternoon of the 17th of July?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 Now, I want to move on because you said something yesterday about
15 your perception of the attitude of Vinko Pandurevic to what had happened
16 in Zvornik during the -- those days. And I'd like, please, if we could
17 put into e-court P334. And I'd like the witness's attention, please, to
18 be directed to paragraphs 5, 6 and 7.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Meek?
20 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I wonder if there is an English
21 translation of this document.
22 JUDGE KWON: Let us check.
23 MR. MEEK: Thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: I think we have it in front of us.
25 MR. HAYNES:
1 Q. Mr. Stanisic, would you be good enough, not out loud because we've
2 got it in English, but just to read to yourself paragraphs 5, 6 and 7, to
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And I've made a mistake. You should have been asked to look at
6 paragraph 4 as well, if he could, please. Tell me when you're done.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. As a battalion commander, did you know anything about the sending
9 of this interim combat report on the 18th of July?
10 A. Well, I knew, in fact, we were given the message about this report
11 saying that we were commended for defending the lines of the
12 6th Battalion, the 4th, the 6th and the 7th Battalion were commended.
13 Could you just scroll up so I can see the beginning again?
14 I know about this commendation but about the rest, I'm not
15 familiar with it.
16 Q. Very well. But yesterday you were telling us that, I think the
17 word you used was "indignant", was the attitude of Vinko Pandurevic to
18 what had happened during those days. Does what's said in paragraph 4
19 there accord with what your understanding of what his attitude was towards
20 to these events?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And does it accord with your observations of what was happening at
23 Petkovci, that events were being forced upon people in the Zvornik area?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move on now to a few isolated things.
1 Did you know a man called Milan Maric?
2 A. Yes. Through a combination of circumstances, he's dead.
3 Q. Just briefly tell us who he was and how you knew him.
4 A. I'm sorry, this is a bit hard for me.
5 Q. Would you like a break? I'm very nearly finished but if you would
6 like a break, we can let you have one, subject to the Court's leave, of
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Stanisic, shall we have a break?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: We will break for 25 minutes.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Stanisic, I hope you are feeling better now. I
15 understand that everybody has undergone a very difficult time and we
16 appreciate your cooperation very much.
17 Mr. Haynes?
18 MR. HAYNES:
19 Q. Mr. Stanisic, please accept my apology. It was not my intention
20 to upset you and I'm going to try and finish this subject very quickly,
21 without causing you any further distress.
22 You were telling us yesterday, and today, about a meeting that you
23 had with Dragan Obrenovic when he was the commander of the Zvornik
24 Brigade, concerning what you should or should not say if asked questions
25 by the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you remember that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And all I wanted to ask you was whether you were aware whether the
3 man, whose name I mentioned before we had to have a break, had had or had
4 been called for a similar meeting with Mr. Obrenovic?
5 A. No. I don't know whether he had been called.
6 Q. Very well. Then, I will move on from that topic.
7 We can take it, can we, that at no time did Vinko Pandurevic ever
8 tell you there were things you should or should not say about what had
9 happened at Petkovci?
10 A. No, he didn't tell me anything about that.
11 Q. And perhaps I can clear up what you were saying yesterday when you
12 were asked some questions about conversations with Vinko Pandurevic. Is
13 this the position, that sitting here today, you're simply not sure whether
14 you ever spoke to Vinko Pandurevic about what happened at Petkovci, after
15 the event?
16 A. Could you please repeat that question? Because I'm kind of -- I
17 have difficulty focusing.
18 Q. Yes, of course. You are not sure, are you, whether you spoke to
19 Vinko Pandurevic about what happened at the Petkovci school after the
21 A. No, I'm not sure.
22 Q. Thank you. Just two more things: You've mentioned that you
23 were -- took part in a battle at Glodjansko Brdo which I think was in
24 November of 1992; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And was that a battle in which very, very many members of the VRS
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. About how many, do you think?
5 A. Well, out of 120, in fact, over 120 men got killed, if I remember
7 Q. And were a large number of those from the Zvornik Brigade?
8 A. Well, most of them were from the Zvornik Brigade, some from the
9 Sekovac Brigade, but the majority was from the Zvornik Brigade and the old
10 6th Battalion that belonged to the Zvornik Brigade.
11 Q. Thank you. And I think 40 of them were buried at one time at a
12 service at Karakaj; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But that notwithstanding those sort of losses, was that a battle
15 in which the army of the VRS successfully held out and defended its lines?
16 A. Yes. We withdrew to the second defence line, stopped there and
17 held out on the second defence line, or, rather, the auxiliary trenches
18 for the defence of Zvornik town and the territory under Serb control.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Just one last thing, just to tidy up
20 something you said earlier. When the column passed through Baljkovica,
21 were your mortars still capable of use and could they have been directed
22 on the column as it passed through?
23 A. Yes. They were in use. There was no attack in that area. The
24 Muslim units did not reach my positions because the mortar platoon was
25 behind the lines at a distance of about 1, 1.5 kilometres.
1 Q. And you, as I understand it, were in an elevated position above
2 the area where the column passed through?
3 A. Yes. On a hill-top where the trenches of my battalion were, the
4 6th Battalion's trenches.
5 Q. And what about the guns of the MAD? Were they still functioning
6 and perfectly able to be directed upon the column?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But notwithstanding that, a cease-fire was called and the column
9 was allowed to pass for something like 32 hours; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. HAYNES: Mr. Stanisic, thank you very much. Again I'm sorry I
12 upset you but those are all the questions I have for you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Before I give the floor to Mr. McCloskey,
14 I'd like to make sure whether Defence is done with cross-examination and
15 whether there is any Defence team who wishes to further examine the
16 witness. Mr. Meek?
17 MR. MEEK: Well, Your Honour, I'd have a few questions for this
18 witness based on some cross-examination.
19 JUDGE KWON: That's what I expected. Do you have any objection,
20 Mr. McCloskey?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think this is a new system but if it's short, I
22 don't have an objection.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE KWON: We allow it but limited to the passages that emerged
25 during the cross-examination of Mr. Haynes. Thank you.
1 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
2 Further cross-examination by Mr. Meek:
3 Q. Mr. Stanisic, did you testify just a while ago that you don't
4 recall talking to Vinko Pandurevic about the bodies at the school?
5 A. We didn't talk about the bodies at the school.
6 Q. And yesterday, when were you being questioned by Mr. McCloskey, he
7 read you the passage when Mr. Manning, the Office of the Prosecutor
8 investigator, asked you specifically, "So it's your recollection that you
9 did speak about this with Pandurevic."
10 Your answer at that interview was, "Yes, but I do not recall the
11 exact time."
12 But my question to you wasn't that true that you did but you
13 didn't recall the exact time?
14 A. I don't remember the exact time. That's what I said. And that we
15 were not involved in the cleaning up of the school. I don't remember
16 discussing the bodies.
17 Q. Sir, as you sit here today, do you believe honestly, based upon
18 your testimony yesterday, at page 11626, lines 4 through 7, where you
19 testified under oath, when questioned by Mr. McCloskey about any short
20 unofficial discussions that you may have had with Pandurevic about the
21 situation that occurred, as you claim it did, at the school, and your
22 answer, sir, was, "Well, I may have told him that there had been some
23 bodies up there, that the school had been cleaned up, this was a notorious
24 fact that the school had been cleaned up and that the tank truck had
25 arrived there to clean it up, towards the area of the platform in front of
1 the school." Do you recall that testimony, sir?
2 A. No. I don't recall an excavator or backhoe at all.
3 Q. That's not my question, sir. About the bodies at the school, you
4 stated yesterday under oath that this was a notorious fact. Were you
5 telling the truth yesterday or not, sir?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. The witness went through that with me.
7 He had -- he had -- they had the ability to cross him on it.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Meek, could you move on to another subject?
9 Thank you.
10 MR. MEEK:
11 Q. Today, you were asked by Mr. Haynes that during your interview
12 with the Office of the Prosecutor that you were perfectly happy to tell
13 the Office of the Prosecutor about the two individuals who were driving
14 the vehicle. Do you recall that?
15 A. I don't understand the question.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes?
17 MR. HAYNES: I'm sure when you gave Mr. Meek further leave to
18 recross-examine this witness, you did not envisage a broad attack on his
19 credibility again, but rather some precise questions that might go to his
20 own client's defence. I'm not sure this is what you had in mind and if
21 it's going to continue I will continue to object.
22 JUDGE KWON: Quite right. The Chamber was of the view that
23 Mr. Meek will -- may be putting some questions, specifically, items
24 related to his client.
25 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I'm going to ask another question, then.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.
2 MR. MEEK:
3 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that you, in fact, communicated what had
4 happened at the school to Mr. Pandurevic before the 18th of July 1995.
5 JUDGE KWON: No. The Chamber will not allow this question.
6 MR. MEEK: Okay. I have no further questions, Judge.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 Mr. McCloskey, you have redirect examination?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, but I hope not too long and I can promise the
10 witness he will be through today.
11 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
12 Q. Thank you for your patience. As we know, you're in a tough spot,
13 but I will have some questions for you. From your testimony we know that
14 you knew at the time Drago Nikolic, and you had actually been a security
15 officer for your battalion. Did you know and work with Drago Nikolic when
16 you were a security officer?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you have any problems with Drago Nikolic?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. Is there any reason you can think of in Zvornik or any reason you
21 know at all why you would falsely, why you or Marko Milosevic, would
22 falsely put him at that intersection in Petkovci on 14 July?
23 A. Could you please repeat that question?
24 JUDGE KWON: Could you hold on a minute? Ms. -- I noted
25 Madam Nikolic was on her feet, but, yes?
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. McCloskey is
2 cross-examining his own witness. This last question is a
3 cross-examination type of question, not redirect.
4 JUDGE KWON: Speaking for myself, I don't think it is but I will
5 consult. Mr. McCloskey?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's not even close, Your Honour. This witness
7 was accused of falsely making up this story about Beara and Nikolic and
8 I'm just asking him if there is any reason why he would have done that.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: On the contrary, please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
12 Q. Witness, can you imagine why you would have testified the way you
13 did about Drago Nikolic, had it been false? Is there any reason for you
14 to falsely implicate him?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Madam Nikolic?
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the course of
18 cross-examination by this Defence team, this witness was never the object
19 of any suggestion that he made anything up. Maybe this refers to another
20 Defence team. If so --
21 JUDGE KWON: My memory is that that's a question by another
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct. There is a lot of Defence teams
24 out there.
25 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Now, we know, I think from your testimony and others', that on the
3 14th of July, Vinko Pandurevic was on duty in the Zepa operation, the
4 deputy commander, Dragan Obrenovic, by your words, was out, south of
5 Zvornik in the Snagovo area dealing with the Muslim column. In that
6 situation, does the duty officer at the brigade command have more
7 authority than they might normally?
8 A. He doesn't have any particular powers, because in the area of
9 responsibility, there is one of the commanders, either the commander
10 himself or the deputy commander, and the duty officer is in communication
11 with them. If he has communication with them, he's supposed to consult
12 his superior commander. As far as I know, the duty officer does not have
13 any particular powers in such situations.
14 Q. When you received on the 14th of July what you have called a
15 message to pass on to Colonel Beara, were you free to ignore the duty
16 officer's request, as you put it?
17 MR. HAYNES: Sorry, where is the evidence that the message came
18 from the duty officer?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: In the record, it came from the command of the
20 Zvornik Brigade, the duty officer. I think he's testified that.
21 MR. HAYNES: He said he didn't know who it came from. That's the
23 JUDGE KWON: Could you indicate us the proper passage.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE KWON: Could you ask him.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. Where did you get that call from, that -- where you were asked to
3 talk to -- or to send a message to Beara?
4 A. From the brigade command.
5 Q. All right. Is that the duty office, as far as you know?
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Objection. Your Honours, it's a
7 leading question.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We agree but I think you can reformulate the
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm happy with the brigade command, frankly.
11 Q. When you got this, as you put it, the request from the brigade
12 command to go tell a colonel to call his command, did you feel free to
13 ignore that?
14 A. Well, quite simply I didn't know what it was about. All messages
15 were received from the brigade. It is our duty to transmit. It was just
16 a notification that Colonel Beara should contact a certain address.
17 Q. Fair enough. So it was your duty to transmit this message to this
18 colonel; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The duty of a military officer is about as important a thing as he
21 has, isn't it?
22 MR. MEEK: Judge, I'm going to have to object to that now.
23 Mr. McCloskey wants to testify, let him get on the witness box and take
24 the oath and...
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE KWON: Move on to another subject or reformulate your
2 question, Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. How important is an officer's duty in receiving commands or
5 instructions from his command?
6 MR. MEEK: Again, I believe that's beyond the scope of any
8 JUDGE KWON: Can we move on?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: These are the fundamental issues of this case,
10 Mr. President. He said he didn't treat this as an order.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can move on, no problem.
13 JUDGE KWON: I remember the witness at one time answered that it
14 was just nothing but a message. So I think this question, how important
15 that an officer's duty is can be asked.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, I don't intend to go a lot into it but
17 I would like to hear his views on an officer's duty.
18 Q. How important is your duty when you receive requests or
19 instructions from your command like this? Or any instruction or order?
20 A. My duty was to carry out whatever orders or instructions I
21 received from the command.
22 Q. All right. And if you receive an illegal order, an order, for
23 example, to assist in the killing of prisoners, do you have any duty or
24 obligation to follow that order?
25 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Nikolic?
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is completely
2 beyond the scope of cross-examination, by any Defence team.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could respond, Mr. President, I have a
4 theory. I'm not sure --
5 MR. HAYNES: That's precisely the point. He's advancing a theory
6 through a witness and he should be asking questions to ascertain evidence.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not sure I should talk about it in front of
8 the witness.
9 MR. MEEK: Frankly, Your Honours, I don't think it's appropriate
10 to argue our case right now. If that's what he wants to do, I object.
11 JUDGE KWON: Speaking for myself, I'm wondering what area of
12 cross-examination this is related to. Madam Fauveau?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would like to explain but I don't want to
14 explain in front of the witness.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Just a second. Mr. Stanisic, could you kindly
16 remove your headphones for the moment?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he understands a little English. It may
18 be skeet English but that's English.
19 JUDGE KWON: You told us that you understand some English
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, German.
22 JUDGE KWON: Then could you kindly remove your headphone again?
23 As long as Madam Fauveau will not speak German, please proceed.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this question is not
25 only completely outside the scope of cross-examination, it is also pure
1 speculation and it should be addressed on expert witness, and this is
2 certainly not an expert witness. It is, on the contrary, a fact witness.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. McCloskey?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is a commander. There is no more important
5 position in any army than a battalion commander and he has been asked
6 several questions. In fact, the point that I'm specifically responding
7 to --
8 JUDGE KWON: No.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I missed it. The point I'm specifically
10 responding to was the 16 July daily combat report from Vinko Pandurevic
11 that was brought out by Mr. Haynes where Vinko Pandurevic indicates, and I
12 would agree somewhat, that when he says something to the effect that he
13 can't imagine why someone brought 3.000 Muslims and put them in schools in
14 his area -- 15 -- sorry, 18 July.
15 Now, that statement, which I think is a credible statement and a
16 credible order goes directly to Vinko Pandurevic's intent as a commander.
17 It's the position of the Prosecutor that Vinko Pandurevic was given an
18 illegal order to take part in the killing of men, and when we look -- when
19 you look at his intent, you need to have heard from officers that have
20 experience in issuing orders and taking orders what this means, and that's
21 why I'm asking him that.
22 Does he have an obligation to follow an illegal order? I believe
23 the answer will be no. And then my next question will be, do you have a
24 choice to make whether you follow that illegal order or not? And I think
25 he's going to say yes. And I think that's a crucial for you to know when
1 you evaluate that 16 July order to determine that, even if Vinko
2 Pandurevic didn't like those Muslims being sent to his area, he followed
3 an order, he had a choice, and he carried it out. Mr. Haynes has gone to
4 the -- courageously gone to the crux of this case on this
5 cross-examination. I commend him for it. But when I have a commander in
6 this position, the position of this man, that can go right to the heart of
7 these issues, let's go there. What are we afraid of? He may spit it all
8 back in my face but why not?
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That's your case. Madam Fauveau, do you
10 have anything to add to what you already said?
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Mr. McCloskey
12 mentions orders. I don't know what order is he talking about because, on
13 the other hand, he is also talking about the 16th July combat report which
14 isn't the case because it was on the 18th of July. In any case it was not
15 a report [as interpreted] but a combat report. An order and a combat
16 report are two different things. That's why it is very difficult for me
17 to follow my learned friend. In addition to that, he is talking about the
18 killings and in the reports that we saw, a reference is made to the
19 prisoners, not to the killings. I don't know how the statement just
20 offered by the Prosecutor has anything to do with the question that has
21 just been raised.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We have heard enough. This is not a time
23 for submissions but if you can be very brief?
24 MR. HAYNES: I was simply going to suggest it might be helpful if
25 Mr. McCloskey explored with the witness what the difference in his
1 understanding was between an order a message and a task, because he's --
2 this witness's evidence is clear that he didn't regard these things as
3 orders, and Mr. McCloskey's questions in re-examination presuppose it was,
4 which is precisely what the evidence isn't.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: When a commander tells you it's his duty to carry
6 out the message or request, that means he's received an order, in my
7 humble opinion. And we can argue about that later but that's why I left
8 the question the way it is. You can -- of course, that's the Court's
9 determination on what this so-called request was. But I --
10 JUDGE KWON: We heard enough.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is of the view that while this question
13 is relevant and as a matter of principle, that kind of question can be put
14 to witnesses, but in this case, we don't think that that's properly
15 triggered by the cross-examination of the Defence. So shall we move on?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. And if I could
17 just refer you on another question you'd asked me to, page 11650, line 19
18 through 23, questions by Mr. Ostojic: "Now, I don't believe this was
19 asked on direct but isn't it true that at one time or another you claimed
20 that then called the brigade to inform him that the message to Mr. Beara
21 was conveyed, correct?"
22 And the answer was, "Yes, I notified the duty operations officer
23 in the brigade that the message had been relayed." That's related to the
24 topic we talked about. So just to help clear up what my memory was based
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go to the interim daily combat report
3 of -- if we could go to the 15th July interim combat report which is
4 P00329, and if we could get the English on?
5 Q. I want to take you back to that order, that -- excuse me, that
6 interim combat report, and if I could see the English, it's coming up, I
7 just wanted to ask you a question or two. Okay. It's in the B/C/S so the
8 witness can see it, we could go up a little more where it starts -- keep
9 going, keep going a little more, okay. Unfortunately, I don't know --
10 where I'm looking for is, it says: "An additional burden for us is a
11 large number of prisoners distributed throughout the schools in the
12 brigade area as well as obligations of security and the restoration of the
14 Is that section on there or do I need to keep flipping that for
15 you? I think we need to go to the next page. I'm sorry. Okay.
16 So from this daily -- this interim combat report, can we conclude
17 that Vinko Pandurevic is aware that there are prisoners located in schools
18 throughout his area?
19 A. I apologise. I was reading the document while you, I believe,
20 were putting a question to me.
21 Q. I understand it's important for you to have read that. The
22 question I had was when we look at this part that says, "An additional
23 burden for us is the large number of prisoners distributed throughout
24 schools in the brigade area," can we conclude from that that
25 Vinko Pandurevic, the author of this document, is aware that there are
1 prisoners located in schools throughout the area?
2 A. I don't know how much you think of my opinion and whether I'm
3 entitled to provide you with my opinion, but from this arises that the
4 answer would be yes.
5 Q. Okay. Now, it goes on to say -- let me just give it the whole
6 thing, "An additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners
7 distributed throughout schools in the brigade area as well as obligations
8 of security and restoration of the terrain."
9 And for Your Honours, the term in this translation "obligations of
10 security" is -- means security as in securing the prisoners. There is
11 another word for security in the B/C/S language that has to do with the
12 security branch.
13 MR. HAYNES: He's giving evidence.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes, yes. That should be sought out through
15 the assistance of the witness or the...
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, I can try to do that.
17 But I can't imagine that there's any --
18 JUDGE KWON: Could you hold on now? Can I check with the
19 interpreters whether they can follow the proceedings now?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Are we okay?
21 JUDGE KWON: It seems now it is okay. Mr. Haynes?
22 MR. HAYNES: I'm getting no sound and my microphone is not
24 JUDGE KWON: Are you still not getting any sound?
25 MR. HAYNES: I've got sound now, and my microphone is now working.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I've discovered if I put on two microphones I can
2 cut Mr. Haynes out.
3 Your Honour, I know there is not going to be a disagreement on
4 this and I want to make it very clear that it's not the Prosecution
5 position that obligations of security is obligations from the security
6 branch. So I don't think there is any disagreement on that but I can ask
7 the witness.
8 Q. Witness, when we look at this term, "As well as obligations of
9 security," can you give us a hand on what you think that means related to
10 those prisoners?
11 A. Believe me, I cannot tell you about the security on the one hand
12 and what Mr. Pandurevic meant at the time. Security is a rather broad
13 term. I can't be sure of what Mr. Pandurevic meant at the time. At least
14 I can't see from this.
15 Q. Okay. But, the way you use "security", does that have anything to
16 do with the security branch of the VRS? And I don't know how that's going
17 to get translated but --
18 A. I'm not even a very qualified security man. I'm not an expert on
19 security. Therefore, I can't answer your question. Security can be
20 provided for a defence line, security can be provided for a facility. I
21 don't know. Mr. Pandurevic said it as security. It's very difficult for
22 me to get to the bottom of what he was thinking when he said that.
23 Q. Okay. Then let's go on to this last one. After it says, "As well
24 as obligations of security, and restoration of the terrain," and in your
25 language, "asanacija terena". Now, does -- when an army is doing
1 asanacija can that include burying bodies from the battlefield?
2 A. In fact, yes.
3 Q. Now, this -- can we go to the time block on this order? I believe
4 it's at the bottom. That's the -- I think that's 1507. Does that look
5 like -- can you make out the time? I'm sorry, you're right. Can you help
6 me make out the time? That's the date. And can you tell what the time is
7 on that? I'm sorry I didn't have the original. I believe it's 1925
8 but -- so if this order is -- or this communication, report, goes out
9 roughly around the evening of 15 July, were you aware that there were, on
10 the 15 July, during the day, at the plateau of the Brana or the plateau of
11 the dam at Petkovci, there was an operation to dig huge holes and bury
12 hundreds and hundreds of bodies?
13 A. No. I was not aware of that.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Stanisic. I don't have any other questions.
15 JUDGE KWON: With the assistance of the interpreters, can I
16 confirm whether the "restoration" in English page is a translation of
17 "asanacija" in B/C/S? Can you see the paragraph in which asanacija
19 THE INTERPRETER: Asanation [phoen], asanacija and restoration are
20 not the same thing.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the CLSS has been dealing with this
22 particular document for many, many years. The official translation that
23 they have always given us is restoration of the terrain. However, there
24 is a military lexicon from the JNA that defines asanacija and it's really
25 a bit much to ask the interpreters or even the CLSS to try to encapsulate
1 a word like this in such a brief frame but that's what they've come up
2 with over the years. That's the official translation, restoration of the
3 terrain. We can get you that definition very quickly so that you're aware
4 of it.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that the restoration of
6 the terrain is a -- what has been adopted as the translation for
8 JUDGE KWON: What I'd like to confirm that what appears in B/C/S
9 is asanacija.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think that's a question to the interpreters. We
11 may not have gotten that.
12 JUDGE KWON: We are seeing that passage, probably the second
13 passage, third line, or sixth line from the top.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, it's not on my screen at the moment.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Asanacija appears in the text. The restoration
16 of the terrain, the asanation [phoen] of the terrain.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Very well, Mr. Stanisic, that concludes
18 your evidence -- not yet, Mr. Stanisic. Yes, Ms. Nikolic?
19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again, having looked
20 at the transcript again, I would kindly ask the Trial Chamber to put
21 another question to the witness in order to make everybody clear on that.
22 How many questions -- how many notebooks did the witness have during his
23 interview with Mr. Dean Manning, how many were taken away from him and
24 perused by the investigator? I believe that this may be of some relevance
25 for the testimonies of other witnesses which might be forthcoming.
1 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
2 Mr. Stanisic, can you remember how many notebooks or agenda you
3 gave to the investigator?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One notebook, which was returned to
5 me, and this notebook was probably taken when The Hague investigators were
6 at the Zvornik Brigade premises. It was probably taken from a drawer.
7 JUDGE KWON: So that notebook which was taken is the one you just
8 saw minutes ago?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The notebook that was
10 photocopied by The Hague investigators in Banja Luka is still at my house.
11 It was returned to me once it had been photocopied.
12 JUDGE KWON: I think that's the farthest we can get from the
13 witness, and Mr. McCloskey, you can take a look into the matter.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if we could -- I don't know if I
15 want to say request to the witness but if we could order the witness to
16 hang on to that because if this -- it's possible that there is something
17 in our records that we have not been able to find. We have been looking
18 for this sort of stuff, as you can imagine, all the time. We have not
19 found such a thing and so if the -- if he's referred to it, everyone
20 should be able to see what it is. If that's the case, if he could hang on
21 to that we could get copies out to everyone if we can't find what he's
22 talking about.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. Manning is in Australia and we will try to
25 contact him as to see what his recollection is.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: So, Mr. Stanisic, you would have no problem to hang
3 on with that book?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. With that caveat, that concludes your
6 evidence, and I, on behalf of the Tribunal, would like to thank you for
7 having come to the Tribunal to give it. Now you are free to go.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I
9 apologise for the little incident, but I was moved by certain things.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Have a nice journey back.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE KWON: Shall we deal with exhibits briefly? Is the
13 Prosecution tendering any documents?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have 65 ter number 303,
15 which is the vehicle log for the TAM 80.
16 JUDGE KWON: That has the same number, the same content as 944?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Apparently so.
18 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Yes, thank you.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And then 945, which is the one for the TAM 75.
20 Then we have P02815, which is the aerial that he had marked during
21 proofing. And then we have PIC00110 which is the one he marked about the
22 intersection on the stand.
23 JUDGE KWON: I take it there are no objections from the Defence on
24 these. No.
25 And Madam Nikolic, you're tendering some marked aerial views.
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KWON: That's IC number 111.
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this is 3DIC111.
4 JUDGE KWON: And Madam Fauveau?
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Documents P327 and P328, these are
6 combat reports. And then documents PD302 -- 5D302 and 5D303, one of which
7 is an order in which it is stated that the units of the VRS were
8 accommodated at the Petkovci school from time to time, and 5D303 is an
9 order for the BiH army attack. For the time being these documents have
10 not been translated so I would like to have them marked for
11 identification. And the last document that I wish to tender are pages 71
12 through 74 from the interview that the witness had with the investigators
13 of The Hague Tribunal on the 14th of March 2002.
14 JUDGE KWON: Have you prepared for a separate 65 ter number for
15 those pages?
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It will be
17 5D360. It is still on e-court. However, it cannot be called from e-court
18 as yet. I believe it will be possible within a couple of hours.
19 JUDGE KWON: We'll hear from the Prosecution after we hear --
20 we'll have heard the position from Mr. Haynes. Are you tendering
22 MR. HAYNES: Yes, three documents, 7D241, which is the document
23 setting out the composition of Tactical Group 1, the force that went to
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, formation of Tactical Group 1.
1 MR. HAYNES: Yes. It has been translated but the last time we
2 were advised -- the e-court manager is trying to pair up the translation
3 with the B/C/S document and so perhaps it's best to mark that for
4 identification purposes only for the time being.
5 And then I'm looking for assistance from your court clerk because
6 I'd like to put into evidence two marked documents which will have IC
7 numbers, and if you bear with me just a second.
8 JUDGE KWON: Probably 112 and 113.
9 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much. 7DIC112 and 7DIC113. Thank you
10 very much, indeed for your help.
11 JUDGE KWON: And Prosecution's exhibit -- 65 ter number 334 is
12 already in evidence?
13 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I certainly used that with the witness a little
14 while ago.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Yes, Mr. Meek?
16 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President. We had one document which is
17 2D126, I believe it should be in the system. It's just a handwritten or
18 handdrawn map this witness made 14th of March 2001, signed by him and I
19 think Dean Manning, which was mentioned yesterday.
20 JUDGE KWON: Any objections, Mr. McCloskey?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE KWON: They will be so admitted with the caveat that the
23 untranslated documents will be marked for identification pending the
25 MR. MEEK: I'm going to be quick. I think actually, from looking
1 at this -- this was probably 2002 when it was drawn, however it says 2001
2 because I think Dean Manning only interviewed this witness one time and
3 that's the same time that Ms. Fauveau is talking about page 74, line 5.
4 I'll alert you to the fact that it has 2001 on it but that's wrong.
5 JUDGE KWON: But it says March 14th?
6 MR. MEEK: Yes, March 14th is correct but it's handwritten 2001.
7 I believe it was actually 2002.
8 JUDGE KWON: Okay.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: I meant to say that both the Prosecution's exhibits
11 and Defence exhibits have been admitted. I note the time. So we will
12 adjourn for today. We'll resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day of May,
15 2007, at 9.00 a.m.