1 Thursday, 24 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Madam Registrar. Could you kindly
6 call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everybody and thank you, Madam
10 Registrar. All the accused are here. I notice the absence of
11 Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Haynes from amongst the Defence teams. Prosecution, I
12 see Mr. Haynes -- Mr. Vanderpuye, Mr. Thayer, Mr. Nicholls, who is
13 accompanied by the expert who is assisting the Prosecution or who will be
14 assisting the Prosecution during the testimony of the Defence expert.
15 Mr. Thayer, could you please introduce your expert?
16 Mr. Vanderpuye, sorry, Mr. Vanderpuye, could you kindly introduce
17 your expert?
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President, good
19 afternoon to you and Your Honours. This is Major Richard Angove and
20 you've referred to him correctly. He will be here to observe the
21 testimony of the Defence expert. At this point, he's a consultant with us
22 and he's advising us concerning the testimony as well as the expert
23 report. So I think that sufficiently introduces him if you have any
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. How does he spell his name? I'm asking
1 how does he, because I'm not quite sure that you would spell it right,
2 Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: A-N-G-O-V-E.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. So that's it. Have you more
5 or less come to an agreement what's going to happen with this witness?
6 Because I feel it is very unlikely that we will finish with him today.
7 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Yesterday and today, I spoke to Mr. Rodic concerning this delay
10 which will quite evidently occur during his testimony. He contacted the
11 company he works for, and he was informed that there was no possibility
12 for him not to report for work at the start of the next week. That's to
13 say Monday-Tuesday.
14 Therefore, he can be here today and tomorrow, but there is no
15 possibility for him to be absent from work on Monday. He can provide you
16 with all the relevant details. He received a facsimile from his company.
17 I asked him when it was that he could reappear. He was unable to provide
18 me with an answer now but in the course of the next week, he could furnish
19 us with a possible date for his testimony in June.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you very much, Mr. Zivanovic,
21 for that information. You are aware that we had already agreed sometime
22 back that we will not be sitting tomorrow. I notice Mr. Ostojic.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to complicate the matter further,
25 Mr. Ostojic?
1 MR. OSTOJIC: No. To assist in clarifying the issue a bit, if I
2 may, Your Honour, it is an important witness. It's a Defence expert
3 witness on the intercept project. It is going to take, just the direct,
4 in excess of I believe or as we estimate, four hours to do it. We don't
5 believe we could even complete the direct today.
6 We would propose, as we've suggested to my learned friend, friends
7 from the Office of the Prosecution, that the witness start and end in a
8 specific period and we are contemplating or trying to determine from him
9 if he can come immediately after the recess during the week of June 11th
10 or actually the 12th, on Tuesday, when we reconvene as opposed to starting
11 him and then concluding him later. And the reason we suggest that is
12 because then we would not have any contact with him for over or close to a
13 month's period of time and it would be necessary to continue to draw out
14 certain questions that other Defence attorneys may have on specific
15 intercepts, although he's generally giving the Court an overview of the
16 capacity of those intercepted or purported intercepted conversations.
17 So we proposed to the Prosecution, and they didn't seem to have an
18 objection to it, although I wasn't 100 per cent clear on their position,
19 that the witness, in fact, start in mid-June at the convenience of the
20 Court, the Prosecution and the witness, so that we have him in one block
21 period of a two or three-day session, so that was something we would
22 propose to the Court today.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Before -- before or after PW-108?
24 MR. OSTOJIC: It all depends on the Court's ruling, given our
25 motion and our replies to that motion. We would be at the Court's
1 discretion as to how the Court wants to do it.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: The other point I failed to mention which I should,
4 Your Honour, and that is with respect to Mr. Rodic, the expert, we believe
5 he has been, quite candidly, inconvenienced to a certain degree. Although
6 he's assisting us, he's been waiting for several days now and he's quite
7 anxious to get back and has the demands of his employer which we can't
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We were talking about that this morning in Chambers,
10 because as you know, we do have at heart a lot of concern about witnesses
11 that come here to testify, and it's something that worries us. So what's
12 your position, Mr. Thayer?
13 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.
15 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon,
16 everyone. Let me be 100 per cent clear on the Prosecution's position. We
17 are prepared to proceed today. We have been prepared to do so pursuant to
18 the schedule we've had. We have our consultant here. He is ready. I
19 don't see any reason to postpone this witness's direct testimony until
20 some further date. What we have done in the past with witnesses is to
21 bring them back for cross-examination. As I understand it, Mr. Rodic has
22 been here since at least the 17th. If Defence counsel needed time to
23 coordinate their examinations, they had ample opportunity to do so.
24 I do not believe that this change in the date on which his
25 testimony is set to proceed warrants postponing his direct testimony any
1 further. We are ready to go. We do not have any witnesses available to
2 fill the time today because we have been aiming for sometime to try to get
3 this completed. So our position is quite clear. We are ready. I
4 understand that the Defence counsel is ready to present this direct
5 testimony. We see no good reason to postpone this testimony any further.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic?
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. This is the first time
8 we've heard that their position is clear on this point but let me make it
9 very clear. The Defence doesn't need additional time to prepare this
10 expert. He has his report. The report's been submitted. It's been
11 submitted in due time which their expert can refer to. I just want to
12 make for the record an observation that even though at times the Court has
13 restricted me from extending some cross-examination questions and even at
14 the objection of my learned friends a couple times they projected that I
15 went over a specified time limit, we've seen in the last two, three days,
16 as the Court has mentioned, it's the OTP and specifically my learned
17 friend Mr. Thayer that extended, as I think the Court said on the record
18 yesterday, three times their estimate.
19 This is not our fault. They extended it. We plead leave for
20 obviously different reasons than from what they claim. We think it's
21 necessary that the expert be shown to the Court in one full period,
22 whether it's two or four days' sessions, and that is most convenient for
23 the Court and all the parties to commence in July, given his schedule that
24 he cannot return next week.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. My only question to you is this: That
1 originally, it was projected that there will be two hours from -- by
2 Mr. Zivanovic and then another hour between the Beara and the Nikolic
3 teams, plus one hour the Borovcanin -- 15 minutes, sorry, the Borovcanin
4 team. We had suggested that there should only be one examination-in-chief
5 and then obviously if there are any leftovers, they will be catered for.
6 How come that we have now got four hours plus? Can't we start and finish
7 in three hours, can't we start and finish the examination-in-chief of this
9 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not sure that we can, Your Honour. It's not
10 something that's orchestrated as tightly as the Prosecution's witnesses,
11 but we think it may take longer and given the estimates by other counsel
12 from the Defence who are not using this witness as a joint expert, we
13 estimate generally that it may take in excess of four hours, given those
14 time periods.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But our idea was once the direct is finished,
16 cross-examination goes to the Prosecution and then if there is Mr. Josse
17 or Mr. Krgovic who would like to cross-examine this witness, he -- they
18 will come after the Prosecution and not before.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: I included their time, Your Honour, so I apologise
20 for that.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Ostojic. Shall we start and try and
23 finish with this witness and then he can come for cross-examination when
24 it's most convenient for him?
25 MR. OSTOJIC: If that's the Court's ruling, of course we will
1 abide by it, Your Honour. We do have other housekeeping matters we can
2 deal with but if the Court wants to put that off, we shall do as you say.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure the housekeeping matters won't engage us
4 for three hours, so they seem very complicated in your mind. So let's
5 proceed. Shall we proceed, Judge Prost? Okay. So we are going to
7 For the record we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis today, Judge
8 Stole couldn't be with us for personal reasons, compelling personal
9 reasons, so, yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we continue
11 sitting today and proceed with the examination-in-chief, I wanted to raise
12 the matter of our contacts with the expert witness in the meantime. I
13 have to inform you that we've been dealing with a number of technical
14 difficulties, and we shall have to be in touch with him in the case there
15 is a break between today's examination-in-chief and the Prosecution's
17 In view of that proceeding now will place us in a very difficult
18 situation because we will not be able to work with him on other matters
19 that we have engaged him for in this case. For this reason, we would find
20 it quite appropriate to deal with his testimony at a later stage so that
21 in the meantime we could make use of his other services.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That is none of our concern, Mr. Zivanovic. What is
23 of our concern is that for all intents and purposes, this person was
24 supposed to come here yesterday, start yesterday or the day before, and
25 finish with his testimony. So let's not talk about further consultations
1 with him in relation to what he's going to testify upon now. Other
2 matters, I don't think we even need to discuss them now.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically to make it clear, if he doesn't finish the
5 testimony today, there is no reason why -- on earth why we should allow
6 you to approach the witness to make or to further -- make further
7 consultations -- have further consultations with him on the subject of his
8 testimony today, but on other matters you only have to ask and we will
9 grant you so, like we have granted on previous occasions.
10 In other words, if it there are other matters that you have
11 engaged this witness upon which he is not going to testify upon now,
12 today, or later on, if he doesn't finish his testimony today, then of
13 course you can have consultations with him but not on what he is going to
14 testify today and when he finishes this part of his testimony.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any objection to that, Mr. Thayer?
17 MR. THAYER: No, Your Honour. We think that's a fair approach.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We've done it in the past even with your
19 own witnesses, so let's proceed.
20 Madam Usher, could you kindly bring the witness in? I just want a
21 confirmation from both sides that the tendering of documents relating to
22 Mr. Trivic's testimony will be dealt with at a later stage, sometime next
23 week. Is that agreed? That's what has been communicated to you as the
24 express desire and wish of the parties. Confirmed?
25 MR. THAYER: That's confirmed, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing is, Mr. Josse, I may have given you
4 the impression that after he finishes the direct examination, Prosecution
5 will go on cross-examination first. Actually, the decision is in the
6 inverse. You will go first.
7 MR. JOSSE: We had rather assumed that, Your Honour. It may be
8 that we should have a brief discussion at some point about this because of
9 course we are in the very unusual situation of a Defence witness giving
10 evidence in the middle of a Prosecution case. Normally this is a matter I
11 suspect we would have explored at a Pre-Defence Conference pursuant to the
12 rules, so there may be one or two procedural matters that we should iron
13 out as we go along.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. But you -- or Mr. Josse that we had
15 discussed very briefly this matter of having evidence brought forward by
16 the Defence during the Prosecution's case.
17 MR. JOSSE: If Your Honour says --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And you were free to either decide to bring such
19 evidence forward or not to.
20 MR. JOSSE: If Your Honour says that this is in no way a precedent
21 to what's going to happen in the Defence case, then we are quite content
22 to cross-examine before the Prosecution.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a precedent. You can take it as definitely
24 in the affirmative. It's not a precedent.
25 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, you were free to -- each one of you was
2 free not to adopt --
3 MR. JOSSE: Indeed we could have objected to this course. I
4 appreciate that.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
6 Good afternoon to you, Mr. Rodic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And on behalf of the Trial Chamber I wish to welcome
9 you to this Tribunal.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You have been brought here by some of the Defence
12 teams as their expert on matters related to interception of radio relay
13 communications and you're about to start giving evidence. Before you do
14 so, you are required to make a solemn declaration that in the course of
15 your testimony, you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
16 the truth. The text is going to be handed to you now by Madam Usher.
17 Please read it out aloud and that will be your commitment with us.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that
19 I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: DJURO RODIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable,
23 take a seat.
24 Mr. Zivanovic, who is lead counsel, Defence team appearing for
25 Colonel Popovic, Vujadin Popovic, will be examining you in chief. Please
1 try to keep your answers as brief as possible, and try to be to the point
2 as much as you can.
3 Mr. Zivanovic. If you wish to ask the witness what his position
4 is in relation to his employer and overstaying past the weekend, maybe
5 here Monday when we hope to finish with his witness you're free to do so
6 rather than put the questions myself. I'm saying this because you hinted
7 that he may wish to make statements in this regard. Anyway, unless you
8 prefer to go ahead. Go ahead.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I explained the
10 reasons why Mr. Rodic is not able to stay on in The Hague, so I will move
12 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Rodic.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. For the record, give us your full name, please.
16 A. My name is Djuro Rodic, son of Ilija.
17 Q. Can you tell us how old you are?
18 A. I was born on the 6th of May, 1947.
19 Q. Where were you born?
20 A. I was born in the village of Strmica, near Knin, Republic of
22 Q. What is your ethnicity?
23 A. Serb.
24 Q. What schooling do you have?
25 A. I graduated from the Electrical Engineering College, the
1 special -- and I specialised in telecommunications. I completed the
2 course in Split, which is attached to the Zagreb University.
3 Q. Did you attend any specialisation courses or any additional
4 advancement courses related to your profession?
5 A. I had been working for 30 years in the army of Yugoslavia, between
6 1973 and --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 83 and 2003.
8 A. -- I had to undergo training. I am a radio relay officer by
9 specialisation and it was with the company ISKRA in Ljubljana that I
10 attended courses for multiplexing equipment that had been manufactured
11 there. This was early on in my career.
12 I went on to attend specialisation courses in Munich, in their
13 telecommunications centre for multiplexing equipment as well as in their
14 institute and factory for manufacturing radio relay devices for military
15 purposes. I also attended specialisation courses with the institute for
16 microwave technology in Belgrade. I continually attended courses within
17 the school centre for communications attached to the VJ General Staff. In
18 addition to these courses, I took part in a number of training for dealing
19 with radio relay stations and terminal radio relay stations.
20 At the end of my military career, in order to continue working, I
21 felt young, I had to take the exam, the professional exam, with the
22 Chamber of Engineering in Belgrade in order to be licensed to work as
23 project manager of telecommunications systems and networks, and that's
24 what I'm doing right now.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you very much. You've mentioned that in your CV. You told
2 us that you worked for 30 years in the army of Yugoslavia?
3 A. Yes, in the army of Yugoslavia, or rather, in that same force
4 which changed name over time.
5 Q. Can you tell us what was the period that you attended your active
6 service in --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic and Mr. Rodic, you need to allow a
8 short interval between question and answer because you are rendering the
9 interpreter's life miserable. I can sense the stress they are
10 experiencing in trying to catch up with both of you, who speak the same
11 language, so please allow a short pause. Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I know I will be back saying the same thing in about
14 two minutes' time, but in the meantime please try.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best.
16 Q. Can you tell me briefly what your service in the army of
17 Yugoslavia was throughout your military career there until your
19 A. Yes, I can. As I joined the army as an active serviceman, I
20 started in the group for radio relay communications of the armed forces
21 and in setting up radio relay networks, which included supervision of the
22 construction of the network, checks of the system, measurements concerning
23 that particular system, and carrying out the interconnection of various
24 networks so that they could be of service to the armed forces. As I
25 gained experience, I continued working in efforts to perfect the existing
1 radio relay systems and networks and to define the requirements for
2 further development and production of such equipment of a new generation,
3 of cutting edge equipment.
4 Q. I apologise for interrupting you. Please go ahead.
5 A. As the equipment was being used by the army, I set up experimental
6 networks and took part in gradual assimilation of this equipment into the
7 army life. At a later stage, I worked on the procurement of
8 communications devices for the purposes of the army. As I was setting up
9 radio relay networks, I also examined the flow of data and the functioning
10 of the radio relay systems across borders, and I mean across borders with
11 neighbouring countries. This was very important because we had to make
12 sure that the flow of data was kept at the minimum so that the
13 neighbouring countries would not raise their complaints about interference
14 from our side.
15 Q. Can you tell us when you joined the armed forces and when you
17 A. It was on the 1st of November, 1973 that I joined the army, and my
18 service was terminated at the end of October, 2003, on which date I had
19 completed the full 30 years of service for the armed forces of the army of
21 Q. Thank you. In time of war in the former Yugoslavia, where did you
22 serve? And I'm referring to the period between 1991 and the end of 1995.
23 A. I spent the entire period in one institute and that was the
24 communications administration with the General Staff of the army of
25 Yugoslavia. I have to say that the -- at the end of December.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: At the end of
2 September --
3 A. 1992, up until the end of March, 1993, when my native area was
4 under threat, I went and joined the army of Republika Srpska and I
5 defended my people during the aggression against the Republic of Serbian
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Where were you at the time, in which town?
9 A. The seat of the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was in
10 Knin, and I spent six months in that town in the headquarters there.
11 Q. Where did you continue your service then after the month of March
12 of 1993?
13 A. I went back to where I had originally come from when I came to
14 Knin. I went to the communications administration of the General Staff of
15 the Yugoslav army.
16 Q. Which time was that?
17 A. Well, after Ljubljana and then Montenegro, I was in Belgrade.
18 Q. From that period on, until the end of the war, did you ever go to
19 the territory of the Republika Srpska?
20 A. I went there twice, in the aftermath of the bombing of Veliki Zep
21 when the radio relay path, 120-channel path, active between Cer and Veliki
22 Zep was destroyed. I was an expert and in charge of restoring that radio
23 relay path into working order. The second time was in mid-August, 1995,
24 when as part of the assistance to the army of Republika Srpska, I toured
25 all their radio relay nodes and all the most important radio relay
1 stations, terminal radio relay stations, in order to make sure that the
2 system which was in quite a poor condition was upgraded as far as it was
3 possible, given the resources we had.
4 Q. Let us clarify this: When did your first visit to Veliki Zep take
5 place? You said when the second time took place but can you tell us about
6 the first time?
7 A. That was a year earlier. I think it was in 1994.
8 Q. This is my next question: You told us that in 1994 and 1995, you
9 were discharging the services you described. These were regular duties
10 within your profession?
11 A. I was a specialist in that area and there weren't many people who
12 were capable of seeing that work through. I believe that we spent two
13 days at that particular facility each time we visited it.
14 Q. In addition to these jobs you performed, did you also perform any
15 other jobs that were outside your line of profession? And I'm referring
16 to the territory Republika Srpska.
17 A. No. I was lucky enough that I was able to remain within the
18 bounds of my profession throughout my career.
19 Q. Did you take part in the work of some commissions or delegations
20 that dealt with disarmament and arms control and so forth?
21 A. No, never, in that territory or in any other territory, for that
23 Q. Were you ever in touch with any paramilitary forces?
24 A. No. I strictly adhered to the military ethics and professional
1 Q. Mr. Rodic, can you tell us briefly what the task was with regard
2 to your expert report?
3 A. The task of my expert report, in my understanding, was to assess
4 the possibility of interception of radio communications of the army of
5 Republika Srpska along radio relay paths of Vlasenica-Veliki
6 Zep-Cer-Gucevo and Zvornik.
7 Q. Can you tell us what was the reason for choosing that particular
9 A. Because according to the diagram of the radio communications of
10 the Drina Corps, it was along that route that radio relay communications
11 took part of the Drina Corps, which was headquartered in Vlasenica. Their
12 communications with the Zvornik Brigade and Bratunac Brigade. Moreover,
13 communications could be set with the superior command or, rather, the Main
14 Staff of the army of Republika Srpska.
15 Q. Was it along that route of
16 Vlasenica-Veliki Zep-Cer-Gucevo-Zvornik, that all radio relay
17 communications of the Drina Corps and the units you just mentioned were
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were along that same route radio relay communications by RU-800
21 and RU 1 carried out? Or was it with only one of them?
22 A. Well, they used only one of them because they did not use both for
23 that particular route.
24 Q. Let me be more specific. Were radio relay communications
25 transmitted along that route with RRU-1?
1 A. Not along that route but on the route from Veliki Zep to Bratunac,
2 yes, it was along that route that RRU-1 maintained communications.
3 Q. Were radio relay communications carried out by radio relay device
4 RRU-1 the subject of your analysis?
5 A. That was my wish, but I was unable to obtain the necessary data in
6 order to analyse communications carried out through the RRU-1 device. So
7 the answer is no.
8 Q. On this route, in addition to the communications by RRU-1 and
9 RRU-800 devices, were any other devices used for communication?
10 A. On the first path, Vlasenica-Veliki Zep-Cer-Gucevo-Zvornik. On
11 the part of the route between Veliki Zep and Cer, radio relay
12 communications were carried out with another type of device, which was SMC
13 1306 B. That was the type.
14 Q. These devices, SMC 1306 B, did you analyse them?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Can you tell us why?
17 A. Because the documentation of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina shows
18 that they did not intercept any communications through this device, but
19 only communications through RRU-1 and RRU-800. Apart from this, an
20 inspection of their listening-in equipment led me to conclude that they
21 were unable to intercept any communications carried out by SMC 1306 B
22 because they were -- they did not have any equipment operating on the 55
23 gigahertz range.
24 Q. Could you please now explain to us the difference between the
25 RRU-1 and RRU-800 devices, briefly?
1 A. Very briefly, to put it simply, RRU is a one channel or single
2 channel radio relay device operating in a frequency range of 235 to 270
3 megahertz. It's an analog device. RRU-800 is a multi-channel radio relay
4 device with a capacity of four or 12 or 24 telephone channels, and for
5 this it needs the support of a multiplex device and it operates in a
6 frequency range of 610 to 960 megahertz. In addition to these
7 differences, they resemble one another because they are radio relay
8 devices used to direct point-to-point communication. They differ in their
9 manner of use. The one channel, single channel radio relay device, which
10 contains a multiplex part is intended for lower level tactical units.
11 It's portable. It can be carried by a single soldier. It can be used for
12 quick communication. Whereas RRU-800 is more intended for a stationary
13 radio relay system and that was how it was used for the most part in the
14 radio relay network.
15 Q. Please tell us what conditions are required in order to intercept
16 communications done through RRU-800.
17 A. Well, there are several prerequisites as follows: First, the
18 person wishing to intercept the communication needs equipment. Secondly,
19 that person has to position his equipment in suitable sites. Thirdly, an
20 organisation and experts are required. And lastly -- last but not least--
21 the frequencies have to match when listening in.
22 Q. When you say the frequencies have to match, you mean the frequency
23 used by the person intercepting and --
24 A. Well, yes, intercepting or listening in is carried out as follows.
25 A transmitter transmits a signal on a certain frequency. The person
1 intercepting has to adjust his equipment to that frequency, that precise
2 frequency, in order to be able to listen in.
3 Q. Please tell me what kind of equipment is needed to intercept
4 communications using RRU-800 for the communication?
5 A. Well, you can't use just any kind of intercepting equipment. It
6 has to be suitable to the frequency range it is intended for. In order to
7 intercept a signal emitted by RRU-800, the receiver used to intercept the
8 communication has to have a frequency range covering the frequency range
9 of this piece of equipment. Furthermore, its sensitivity, the sensitivity
10 of the receiver has to be such that the signal is of good quality and that
11 it can be received reliably. What is very important is the antenna
12 system, which has to be suitable for the frequency range of the devices
13 being listened into. It must be oriented well because this will improve
14 the quality significantly.
15 Q. Can you tell me whether the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had such
17 A. From what I have been able to ascertain through the documentation
18 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in their north and south sites, they
19 had amateur equipment of the 1990 generation, which they were able to
20 obtain. As a rule, they were able to intercept RRU-1 and RRU-800.
21 Q. Just to explain to the Chamber, I told the witness not to mention
22 the names of the positions of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina but to refer
23 to them as north and south, which is why the witness used this
24 terminology. Out of an abundance of caution.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic, for that. Actually, the
1 moment he said the north and the south side, we immediately noticed that
2 there was some direction, good direction, in this case. So our gratitude
3 for that, Mr. Zivanovic.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. What was the impact of the position of the radio sets used to
6 intercept on the intercepting process itself?
7 A. Well, the location is very important for the possibility of
8 interception. It should be as close as possible to the devices being
9 listened to, and not only close in terms of distance but also the position
10 should be such that as many devices as possible can be listened to under
11 favourable angles in relation to the angles of the radio relay
12 communication and the orientation of the antenna of the radio relay
14 Q. To clarify a certain point, when you say the devices being
15 listened to, are you referring to the five that you listed in your schema
16 of radio relay communications?
17 A. Yes. I refer exclusively to those five facilities that are -- I
18 analysed in my report.
19 Q. The reason I put this question was to avoid misunderstanding
20 because someone might think we might be referring to somebody using a
21 telephone or something like that. That's why I put this question to you,
22 although I knew what the answer was.
23 A. By your leave, I will clarify further. When I say "the facility
24 being listened to," those are the radio relay facilities and stations on
25 the route that I mentioned, and if we want to go into detail, those are
1 the antennae on those facilities.
2 Q. Can you tell us very briefly what the distance was of the -- of
3 the interception stations of the north and south positions of the army of
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina in relation to Vlasenica, Veliki Zep, Cer, Gucevo
5 and Zvornik?
6 A. In my analysis, that is in addendum number 10, and as it's quite some
7 distance, I will use that addendum or appendix. Interception station North
8 was 72.9 kilometres away from Cer. Crni Vrh, 52.7 kilometres. Zvornik, 53.7
9 kilometres. Veliki Zep, 79.3 kilometres. Vlasenica, 64.9 kilometres.
10 From the interception station south, Zvornik is 47.1 kilometres away, and
11 Crni Vrh, 54.4 kilometres. Cer, 82.7 kilometres. Veliki Zep, 46.9
12 kilometres, and Vlasenica, 34.2 kilometres. According to the
13 topographical maps, those are the distances. In brief, then, we have 30
14 or more kilometres, up to 80 kilometres' distance. From the standpoint of
15 distance, those are the figures. Some of these longer paths were not
16 favourable, and in the calculations one can see the influence of distance
17 on the suppression of the electromagnetic wave reaching the antenna of the
18 interception equipment from the station emitting the signal.
19 Q. Can you tell me, in general, whether intercepting at these
20 distances is possible with the intercepting devices at the disposal of the
21 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in general?
22 A. There are three types of devices according to the documentation of
23 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which, as a rule, were able to be used to
24 intercept communications in these locations under certain conditions.
25 It's not just the equipment but also the antennae and the orientation and
1 whether or not there is optical visibility. So all these can have an
3 Q. Can you tell me what the effect is of the elevation above sea
4 level on the possibilities of listening in?
5 A. The elevation above sea level influences the quality and
6 possibility of intercepting because the intercepting station, which is
7 higher up, has better optical and radio visibility in relation to the
8 facilities intercepted, but visibility is not always there because that
9 depends on what there is between those two points, whether there are
10 hills, valleys, and so on. So it also depends on the geographical
11 features between those two points.
12 Q. To clarify this, can you tell us what you mean by optical
14 A. Optical visibility between the intercepting station or antenna and
15 the antenna of the radio relay device means that when one looks at the
16 land profile and the curves of the land, there are no obstacles along that
17 route, so that if one were able to see with the naked eye, one would have
18 to be able to stand at the elevation where the intercepting device is and
19 see the antenna of the radio relay device broadcasting the signal. Did
20 you ask me about radio visibility?
21 Q. No, only about optical visibility.
22 A. I apologise.
23 Q. Yes, please go ahead. Explain what radio visibility is.
24 A. That is an even stricter criterion, because the spreading of
25 electro-magnetic waves does not take place only along a single line. It
1 has to go through a wider area which has to be free in order for reception
2 to be of high quality, and I have explained this in my report.
3 Q. Will you tell us at what point above sea level the intercepting
4 stations of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were in the north and south
6 A. In the northern location, it was at 815 metres above sea level,
7 which is not a very favourable height. On the southern location, it was
8 1326 metres, which is somewhat more favourable, in terms of intercepting.
9 Q. What were your findings in relation to the visibility of
10 Vlasenica, Veliki Zep, Cer, Gucevo and Zvornik facilities from the
11 intercepting stations north and south?
12 A. I examined this on the basis of topographical military maps, as I
13 had done in my military career, and the findings are in appendices 20 to
14 29. In item 7, I gave a comment, an explanation, of these findings in
15 relation to each of these facilities as to whether there was visibility or
17 Q. Was visibility an interference or was it an obstacle to the
18 intercepting activities along the mentioned radio relay route?
19 A. According to my calculations, in view of optical and radio
20 visibility or because of optical and radio visibility, the Vlasenica-
21 Veliki Zep path could not be intercepted because Vlasenica does not have
22 either optical radio visibility from intercepting facilities north and
23 south. Also, Zvornik did not have radio and optical visibility of the
24 intercepting stations north and south.
25 Q. What impact does the orientation of antennas at the intercepting
1 stations have on the possibility of intercepting certain communications?
2 A. The orientation of antennas at the intercepting stations is very
3 important and has a great impact on the possibility of intercepting well.
4 It can also vary. The orientation of the antennas at the radio relay
5 stations is fixed. It is always in one fixed position, which is the best
6 position for transmitting communications, and it is fixed by azimuth and
7 elevation. Radio relay link is a point-to-point link and it must be directed
8 from one facility to the other as precisely as a bullet, and it must be
9 noted that gravity does not affect the magnetic waves and they go straight.
10 What I was able to glean from the documents of the army of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina I looked at, they directed their antennas at the north
12 intercepting facility, towards southeast, for some of the documents. For
13 others, it was south. And from the southern facility, at an angle of 135
14 degrees and at an angle of 180 degrees. This is what was written. In my
15 view, I believe that the antennae at the northern facility were directed
16 at the same angles as was the south facility because north was 135 degrees
17 and south was 180 degrees from north.
18 Q. What impact does the direction of the antennas have on the
19 possibilities of intercepting the facilities at Vlasenica, Veliki Zep,
20 Cer, Gucevo and Zvornik?
21 A. I analysed the situation with regard to these particular radio
22 relay paths as contained in ABiH documents. None of the positions of the
23 antennas were good. None of them were -- provided the best possible
24 intercepting of communications from these facilities. As far as the
25 orientation of the antennas of radio relay sets is concerned, their
1 orientation was quite unfavourable for intercepting, save for two instances,
2 and that's along the Veliki Zep and Vlasenica path, because that particular
3 route deviates only by some 2 degrees from the direction Veliki Zep-northern
4 intercepting facility. Which means that the northern intercepting facility
5 was in a good position, despite the great distance from Veliki Zep, to
6 intercept the radio-relay direction Veliki Zep-Vlasenica. The same
7 applies to Cer-Gucevo route, which was quite appropriate for interceptions
8 by the southern intercepting facility in terms of orientation.
9 Q. With the antennas thus positioned, could the conversations be
10 intercepted by the northern and southern intercepting facilities taking
11 place in all of these radio relay stations, namely Vlasenica, Veliki Zep,
12 Cer, Gucevo, Zvornik?
13 A. I did a detailed calculation for the radio relay routes Vlasenica-
14 Veliki Zep and Zvornik-Gucevo because I had the information available with
15 regard to frequencies at which radio relay equipment operated. I provided
16 the findings in item 11 of the Report for RRU-800. The analysis shows
17 that only the radio relay path between Veliki Zep and Vlasenica could have
18 been intercepted with any quality, and the rating was good or below good.
19 In all the other cases, the receiving signal at the intercepting
20 stations was below the threshold normally used by the radio intercepting
21 sets, which meant that they did not receive the signal at all, or in some
22 cases it was just above the threshold of reception, which meant very poor
23 reception, with a high level of noise and a very low level of
25 Q. Can you tell me why you did not analyse the possibilities of
1 intercepting the Cer-Gucevo path?
2 A. I was unable to analyse that because the documentation of the
3 Drina Corps did not contain the frequencies used by that particular path.
4 Q. Why didn't you analyse the Cer-Veliki Zep radio relay path?
5 A. I did not do that because that particular set worked in the
6 frequency range between 4.4 to 4.6 gigahertz and 4.8 to 5 gigahertz. The
7 BiH intercepters did not intercept these particular frequencies. At least
8 none of the documentation I had indicated anything of the sort.
9 In addition to that, the documentation I had at my disposal
10 indicated that conditions were not in place that would have allowed for
12 Q. Let us clarify. This is the path you referred to which was
13 maintained by?
14 A. SMC-1306 B.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I suggest that we have our break now.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. No, no. I was
19 JUDGE AGIUS: We have 15 minutes more, but if you wish to have
20 your break now, we will be very happy to grant you that.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. I'm not asking for an
22 early break. I thought it was the time for the break. It was my
24 JUDGE AGIUS: One other thing while we are in an informal break,
25 if you at any time need to put to the witness any of the diagrams, the
1 images, appendices 18, 20 onwards, et cetera, please keep in mind, in your
2 mind that the name of the either the north or the south location is
3 indicated on the page and we would need either to go in private session or
4 not have it broadcast, just to alert you to that.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll keep that in mind and I will
6 decide over the break which of the options we will use. I haven't been
7 showing our expert any of the maps or anything else.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. That's why I didn't intervene before. Go
9 ahead, Mr. Zivanovic.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Rodic, I noticed that in the frequency diagram you had and
12 which is contained in the appendices and which you say you used as the
13 basis for your findings, there is the radio relay path Bare and Lokanj,
14 battalion command of the 1st Bratunac Brigade, in the direction of
15 Gucevo. I noticed that you did not take this particular path into
16 consideration in your report. Can you tell us why?
17 A. Yes. The document contained in appendix 13, 04314792, item 8 in
18 the diagram of frequencies of the Drina Corps, from the month of October
19 1993, it is indeed there. However, in the diagram of radio relay links of
20 the same command dated 1994 and 1995, this path cannot be found. Since I
21 did not find it in that particular diagram, which I considered relevant, I
22 was unable to include it in any of my calculations or in my analysis, for
23 that matter.
24 Q. Can you tell me which frequency this particular path had in 1993?
25 A. These were 630-megahertz and 850-megahertz frequencies.
1 Q. The documents concerning intercepted conversations, did you find
2 any conversations taking place along this path?
3 A. Yes. Seven conversations that took place on the frequency of 630
4 megahertz, and this was noted by the north facility. The frequency of 850
5 megahertz was not, however, noted down by any of the facilities.
6 Q. Based on the documents available to you, did you conclude from
7 which location the station using 630 megahertz was?
8 A. I was able to find it in several documents, and the most relevant
9 was the BiH army document number 0320-0963. This frequency was active
10 from the Sarajevo area. There is mention of Lukavica, Rajlovac and so on.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would suggest we have our break now, anyway.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We are all ready to please you,
13 Mr. Zivanovic. We'll have -- one moment.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We need half an hour because we are discussing
16 matters that we will come back to you with our decision later on during
17 the day. So it's 30 minutes. Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you continue, Mr. Zivanovic, Mr. Nicholls, we
21 were wondering if you could explore the possibility of postponing the
22 testimony of PW 128 which is scheduled -- 128, which is scheduled for next
24 MR. NICHOLLS: It is definitely possible, Your Honour. He is not
25 here yet. He has not flown here yet. Our view, as you know, is that it
1 is not required, but it is possible. I do not believe that at this point
2 we could replace him with a full witness for Monday. We would be
3 prepared --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Not Monday. Tuesday.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Tuesday. Excuse me. We would be prepared to go
6 ahead with another witness on Tuesday, I can't recall his number off-hand,
7 I'll know it in a minute, but we could start with a witness for sure on
8 Tuesday and --
9 JUDGE KWON: 99.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I can tell you exactly -- thank you, Judge, Judge
12 Kwon, because that --
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: 99, yeah.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: So that is possible. And then 128, he does not
16 actually have protective measures, it's witness 128, could testify either
17 later in the week or however Your Honours order.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's leave that unprejudiced. Let's leave that
19 unprejudiced. Okay. That's all we wanted to hear and --
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically, the follow-up of all this, Mr. Nicholls,
22 is we are minded to hand down our decision not only on the -- pursuant to
23 the Nikolic plus Beara plus Popovic motions, not only on the interim
24 issues or requests, but also on the substantive part of the motion as
25 early as possible next week, but, in other words, there will be one
1 decision dealing with both.
2 Now, in view that you have not yet filed your response to the
3 substantive part or substantive prayer request of Mr. Nikolic but only in
4 relation to the request for interim provisions, you have until the -- noon
5 on Tuesday, noon, 29, to file your response on that, if necessary, if you
6 feel like, because that's up to you obviously, and in the meantime, the
7 testimony of 128 will be postponed pending the determination of the whole
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. That time will be
10 sufficient. I tried to respond as much as I could in the time period, and
11 there may be a small additional focused mainly on the law. I'm sorry. I
12 don't quite understand, since the decision on 128 has not yet been finally
14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. We asked you if it could -- if it was
15 possible for you to postpone bringing over Witness PW-128. Your answer is
16 yes, you can replace him with someone else on Tuesday. We are kindly
17 asking to you do so because if you don't, we would have to postpone his
18 testimony just in case, the reason being that we, rather than deciding on
19 the question of interim provisions only, we have decided that the two are
20 interlinked in such a way that we need to decide both in the same
21 decision. That will be forthcoming next week.
22 Since we have not yet heard from you formally on your position on
23 the substantive part, we are inviting you, if you wish so to do, to file a
24 response, following which we will take the normal procedure and come down
25 with our decision, which will, of course, deal with not only 108 and the
1 11 or 10 witnesses but also PW-128. But in the meantime, you've kindly
2 offered to not to bring him over on Tuesday, which renders our exercise
4 MR. NICHOLLS: That's very clear, thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Dodic, many apologies to you.
6 We needed to thrash -- Rodic, sorry, not Dodic. My apologies to you.
7 We are going to continue dealing with something that has got absolutely
8 nothing to do with you. My apologies to you as well, Mr. Zivanovic, for
9 having cut through your cross-examination [sic]. Could you kindly
10 proceed? Thank you.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before I
12 resume my cross-examination [sic], I would wish to say that we have not
13 yet received the list of the Prosecution exhibits to be used in the
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Of this witness?
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of this witness. I recall
17 that at the start of trial this Trial Chamber handed down a decision that
18 a party wishing to cross-examine a witness must submit its list of
19 exhibits to be used in cross-examination by the time the witness takes an
20 oath at the latest. This witness has taken his -- made his solemn
21 declaration but we have not yet received the list. Could Your Honours
22 please hand down the appropriate decision because we wish to have the list
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, Mr. Vanderpuye, are there any
1 documents that you're going to use with this witness or not, or exhibits
2 that you're going to use?
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: There are certainly some that I do have in mind.
4 First I do apologise to the Court. I wasn't here at the start of the
5 trial and was unaware of the particular decision to which my learned
6 friend is referring, and it has been the practice, at least, that with
7 respect to the cross-examination of the Prosecution's witnesses --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye, I at least have spent more than 30
9 years in courtrooms.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't try to feed me that because there have been
12 instances where the same criticism has been made and that included when
13 you were cross-examining so --
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have certain documents that I can certainly
15 give a reference to. I don't know what the witness's testimony will
16 ultimately be on direct examination, and to that extent --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: There is practice or a directive that we have
18 exact -- that -- it's not imposed by us. It's something that you have
19 agreed amongst ourselves, between yourselves in the beginning of the
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I certainly have no problem with that,
22 Mr. President. I do recall putting on Ms. Freeze in a similar manner as
23 this witness and I frankly didn't receive a cross-examination list of
24 exhibits until after her final testimony which occurred over I think maybe
25 three or four occasions, but I have no problem and I will do that --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a question --
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: -- forthwith.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- of having a problem or not having a problem.
4 Please do it forthwith.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: If someone can dig up the formula that we had -- you
7 had agreed upon in the beginning of the trial, specifying the time when --
8 I know that there was a task imposed or agreed upon relating to a day the
9 week before witnesses are coming over to testify. You're supposed to
10 indicate the estimated time of -- and then I think documents, we had
11 agreed -- yes, Madam Fauveau? Usually, your memory is --
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are to hand over the
13 list of documents to be used in cross-examination at the point in time
14 when the witness is taking his solemn declaration. I admit that we do not
15 always comply with this practice and that we sometimes submit our list
16 somewhat later.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye does the same. He doesn't always do
18 it, although he's not aware of it, but he's going to do it pretty soon.
19 Let's close the chapter there. Mr. Vanderpuye, I mean, you'll try, do
20 your best to have a list of the documents you intend to use on
21 cross-examination, please, made available to the Defence teams at the
22 earliest. Thank you.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I will do that, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye and thank you,
25 Mr. Zivanovic, for having raised the issue.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Could you please take a look at the map in appendix 1, that's
3 figure 1, and the facilities are marked on it.
4 Could this map not be publicly broadcast because it indicates the
5 position of the two intercepting facilities.
6 This is Exhibit 1322, appendix 2. It's a Defence exhibit.
7 Perhaps it might be put on the ELMO. Appendix 1.
8 Could we zoom in a little bit, please?
9 Mr. Rodic, if we could sharpen the focus a little bit, on this
10 map, can you indicate the northern facility from which intercepts were
12 A. It's here, elevation 815. Do I have to circle it?
13 Q. Please do.
14 A. [Marks]. I will circle the elevation, not the symbol.
15 Q. Could you now indicate the location of the southern facility?
16 A. The southern facility was at elevation 1328. [Marks]. It's this
17 trig point here.
18 Q. Could you now indicate the Vlasenica intercepting facility?
19 A. That is not an intercepting facility.
20 Q. I apologise.
21 A. That is the terminal relay -- radio relay station where the Drina
22 Corps command was and it's here. [Marks]. I've just circled it.
23 Q. Thank you. Can you now indicate the Veliki Zep facility?
24 A. 1537 metres above sea level. That's Veliki Zep. And it
25 encompassed these communications and its location is right here. [Marks]
1 Q. Could you now please mark the Cer facility?
2 A. The Cer facility is here at this elevation. And it encompassed
3 these sets. [Marks]
4 Q. Could you now indicate and circle the Gucevo facility?
5 A. Gucevo is a mountain and the peak of the mountain is called Crni
6 Vrh, and the station was at this elevation and it included these devices.
8 Q. Just one clarification, when you say Gucevo and Crni Vrh, it's one
9 and the same facility?
10 A. One and the same. Gucevo is the name of the mountain and its
11 highest peak is called Crni Vrh. Crni Vrh is the peak of mount Gucevo and
12 that's where the radio relay station is.
13 Q. Which is why it's sometimes referred to as Gucevo and sometimes as
14 Crni Vrh?
15 A. Yes, that's right. For the most part, it's referred to as Crni
17 Q. And could you please indicate the position of the Zvornik
19 A. That was in Zvornik, upstream from the bridge. This is where the
20 communication centre was. [Marks]
21 Q. Could I now ask you to draw lines connecting these five
23 A. From Vlasenica, communications went towards Veliki Zep. This is
24 where there was a node, where telephone channels diverged and the route I
25 analysed went this way towards Cer using an SMC device. There was another
1 node here, then the communications went like this to Gucevo. At Gucevo,
2 there was an interstation and then the communication went to the radio
3 relay station in Zvornik, through the intermediate station.
4 Q. Could you now indicate the RRU-800 route and the SMC route?
5 A. I will mark with 8 the RRU-800 radio relay path, with SMC –- the SMC
6 radio relay path operated using an SMC 1306b, with 8 I mark the radio
7 relay path operated using an RRU-800. Again with 8 I mark the radio relay
8 path operated using an RRU-800. [Marks]. The capacity is 24 telephone
9 channels for RRU-800 and 120 channels for the SMC. And that's it.
10 Q. Could you please indicate here the routes -- or rather I'll put
11 that question later on. Although I might as well do so now, since we are
12 dealing with this.
13 Could you please mark the routes where the frequencies were known
14 and inscribe the frequencies here?
15 A. As I don't know this information off by heart, I will use the
16 documentation which you also have. From Vlasenica towards Veliki Zep, the
17 frequency was 922 megahertz. From Veliki Zep towards Vlasenica, the
18 frequency was 680 megahertz. From Gucevo or Crni Vrh towards Zvornik, the
19 frequency was 810 megahertz. And from Zvornik towards Gucevo, 860 megahertz,
20 860 megahertz. There were unknown frequencies on the routes between
21 Cer, while according to the documents of the Drina Corps, between Cer and
22 Gucevo and between Cer and Veliki Zep, those were unknown frequencies.
23 Q. Thank you. Could you please now tell me, among the conditions we
24 spoke about which might have an impact on intercepting communications, you
25 said that the frequencies had to correspond and that was one of the
1 prerequisites. Could you now please explain in greater detail how the
2 matching of the frequencies between the person intercepting and the person
3 whose communication is being intercepted is important for interception?
4 A. When all the conditions for intercepting have been met, it is
5 essential -- it is very important that the frequencies correspond, because
6 the intercepting centre can listen in only on those frequencies on which
7 communications are being transmitted between two radio relay points. So
8 this refers to two radio relay points and one path.
9 Q. Could you please now tell us how many working frequencies in total
10 were used for communication using RRU-800 on this whole route,
11 Vlasenica-Veliki Zep-Cer-Gucevo-Zvornik?
12 A. Eight different frequencies were used, not just for RRU-800 but
13 also for SMC, because there were four paths, and two working frequencies
14 were needed for each path. If we exclude the frequencies for the SMC,
15 which were within a different range, we are left with three paths using
16 RRU-800, which makes a total of six frequencies.
17 Q. Thank you. Tell me now -- just a moment, please.
18 Of all these frequencies, if I understood you correctly, four are
20 A. Yes. As I indicated, according to the documents of the Drina
21 Corps, or, rather, the plan of frequencies of the Drina Corps, from
22 October, 1993, this entire route had eight frequencies, of which four were
23 known and they are the ones I have indicated here.
24 Q. Please tell me now, were any of the communications that you
25 analysed in the document such that they could have been intercepted on the
1 Vlasenica-Veliki Zep path?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Can you explain why?
4 A. Because this path was operating on the frequency of 922 megahertz
5 through 680 megahertz, and not a single one of the conversations I
6 analysed from the documents of the BH army took place on these
8 Q. Thank you. Could some of the conversations you found in the
9 documentation have been intercepted along the radio relay route
11 A. No.
12 Q. Can you tell us why not?
13 A. Because this radio relay path was active on the frequencies I
14 mentioned here, 810 to 860 megahertz, and none of the frequencies noted in
15 the ABiH documents originate or match with these.
16 Q. I believe you've already answered this question but for
17 clarification sake, let's repeat it. Could any of the conversations you
18 noted have been intercepted along the radio relay route Veliki Zep-Cer?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Can you tell us why not?
21 A. Because along the Veliki Zep-Cer route the SMC 1306 B radio relay
22 set was used and the frequency range of that particular set is much higher
23 than the one of RRU-800 and RRU-1. According to their documentation, the
24 BiH army did not have any receivers who could -- that could intercept such
25 conversations. In addition to that, in none of the documents I consulted
1 did I find any indication or any annotation that would show that they had
2 intercepted conversations there.
3 Q. Can you tell me, on the Veliki Zep-Cer path, was RRU-800 used for a path?
4 A. There was a backup route or a reserve route which was to be used in
5 the event the SMC link is destroyed. In that case, the RRU-800 would be
6 activated and would carry the path between these two locations at the highest
7 capacity. This particular route had been shelled in 1994, and this served
8 them as a lesson to introduce backup path which would enable them to maintain
9 the essential services. In the document of the Drina Corps command, number
10 04267034, this particular path was plotted with a dotted line. Since I was
11 a communications planner, this is done when you need to show that there
12 should be a reserve direction on a route, and putting in place a reserve
13 direction means that we would have to prepare the equipment at a point, at
14 another point, to have an antenna connecter, to have an antenna, and if
15 necessary then a frequency is assigned and the direction becomes operational.
16 Q. Tell me, does this mean that both of these paths along that route
17 did not operate at the same time?
18 A. Precisely, because the SMC line can have the maximum of 120 channels,
19 whereas the RRU-800 can have 24 channels. Therefore, there was a path which
20 had a capacity that was 500 times greater and there was no need for both
21 paths to be active along that route. While I was engaged in planning such
22 routes, along those sections of routes that were very important, we would
23 always, in addition to the 120-channel path, have a small-capacity backup
24 with 24 telephone channels, in case this large-capacity link were to fail,
25 and that is the SMC.
1 Q. Tell me, to your knowledge, in the summer of 1995, in the period covering
2 the months of June, July and August, was the SMC path active or the RRU-800?
3 A. In mid-August, 1995, when I accompanied a team to Veliki Zep, the
4 SMC path was active and we had serviced it.
5 Q. And you're not aware of any previous difficulties with the
6 operation of this particular path, let's say a month or two earlier?
7 A. No. In fact, our team was not called to intervene for that
8 particular path. We were invited to tour all the radio relay facilities
9 of the army of Republika Srpska. This particular visit had been planned a
10 long time before, and we happened to be at that particular site when we
11 visited the area in August, 1995.
12 Q. Tell me, out of the documentation you analysed, could any of the
13 conversations have been intercepted according the Cer -- along the
14 Cer-Gucevo radio relay line?
15 A. The Cer-Gucevo path was the RRU-800 path, for which I was unable
16 to determine the frequency. For this reason, I cannot state with any
17 certainty whether that particular route could have been intercepted.
18 Q. At any rate, tell me how many frequencies could have been there
19 along that particular path.
20 A. Just as was the case with any relay route path, there could not have
21 been more or less than two frequencies.
22 Q. Out of the documentation you analysed, were you able to establish
23 how many different frequencies the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina used to
24 intercept the conversations of the army of Republika Srpska from these two
25 particular facilities, north and south?
1 A. My findings indicate that from the northern intercepting facility,
2 nine different frequencies were listened into, or rather I apologise,
3 from -- that they listened to ten frequencies. The southern intercepting
4 facility listened in from ten different frequencies. Four frequencies
5 were used by both facilities. If we take both of these intercepting
6 facilities into consideration, then the documents were produced on 16
7 different frequencies, as was in fact indicated in the BH army
9 Q. From these two unknown frequencies, could all these conversations
10 have been intercepted, all 16 or nine or 10 conversations?
11 A. Of course not.
12 Q. Why?
13 A. They could have been listened to only on two frequencies along
14 this particular route.
15 Q. Was that only under the condition that some of these intercepts --
16 A. On condition that the conversations intercepted corresponded to
17 the conversations that were transmitted along that route.
18 Q. If none of these conversations that were noted down originated
19 from either of these frequencies, what would your finding be?
20 A. My finding would be that there was no possibility of intercepting
21 any of the conversations contained in the BH army documents with the
22 matching -- or with these particular frequencies.
23 Q. Tell us, in addition to the five facilities we mentioned, namely
24 Vlasenica, Veliki Zep, Cer, Gucevo and Zvornik, were interceptions with
25 RRU-800 could have been -- or rather were they taken or could they have
1 been taken from some other facilities?
2 A. Judging on the principle of operation of radio relay links, that
3 would have been impossible.
4 Q. What we gave you was something that we were given by the
5 Prosecution, and that was the plan of frequency of 1993. That plan of
6 frequencies dating from 1993, was it modified in the subsequent period
7 until 1995?
8 A. That sort of plan of frequencies, based on a stationary system, is
9 modified very rarely.
10 Q. And why is that the case? Why is it not frequently changed?
11 A. I have experience in that field since I participated in the
12 modifications of such plans. This is a complex job which calls for the
13 modification of frequencies throughout the territory covered by an army,
14 in this case throughout Republika Srpska. In technological terms it is
15 quite complex and in this case it would have called for the harmonisation
16 and changes in the plan of frequencies in western Serbia. Moreover, in my
17 view, such modifications were not necessary. The normal voice information
18 could have been conveyed this way. Where necessary, confident -- or
19 rather, when it was necessary to convey confidential information, they
20 were transmitted in coded, encrypted telegrams as was normally the case.
21 Q. Mr. Rodic, can you please place your signature and today's date on
22 the map you have before you?
23 A. Is it the 24th?
24 Q. The 24th of May.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
2 A. Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Are there any additional questions
4 that any one of the other Defence teams who have engaged Mr. Rodic wish to
5 make to him, wish to put to him?
6 MR. OSTOJIC: We have no questions, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: You have no questions?
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic?
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Same here, Your Honour. We will not
11 have any questions for this witness. Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic?
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Nor do we, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Petrusic?
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, I will
16 only seek some clarification from expert Rodic.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
18 Examination by Mr. Petrusic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rodic, concerning your expert report, can you
20 explain the notion of a radio relay link in greater detail to me as a
22 A. It is quite difficult to put it briefly. Perhaps I may be allowed
23 to sketch a simple diagram or to show you a simple diagram to explain
25 Q. Which diagram is that?
1 A. No. This diagram is not contained in the report but I would like
2 to use one to explain this to you. Or I can use appendix 18 to explain in
3 greater detail the entire --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Any problem with anyone with the witness using the
5 diagram that he has in his hands? None? Okay. Go ahead.
6 Mr. Rodic, you can use the diagram that you were -- you had in
7 your hand a minute ago. Thank you.
8 There is no names on that diagrams, no? Of locations or
9 anything? Mr. Rodic, there are no names of --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is very general and there are no
13 specific names.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A radio relay link is a sublink to
16 radio links. It is different from a radio communication because it is a
17 point-to-point radio link. Let us look at the diagram. Between this
18 particular facility here and the other one there, there exists a radio
19 relay link. This symbol means that RRU-800 is used, which can carry up to
20 24 telephone channels. It does not contain a multiplex facility, which is
21 why the multiplex facility is added here. It has not been so important
22 for this analysis because it does not transmit frequencies. It only
23 facilitates the passage of signals along the relay route. What this
24 stands for is a radio channel in the frequency range of 03 to 4
25 kilohertz. The multiplex facility enables the 24 channels to be combined
1 into RRU-800, which are then transmitted along the route to the other
2 station. At the other station, there is a similar multiplex which splits
3 the signal into individual channels so that at the end of the story we
4 have 24 telephone channels here, and they are presented here.
5 Let us now use diagram 18 from the document here to explain to you
6 in technical terms how this particular link was established and with the
7 use of which devices, if you'll allow me to.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Yes, but before that, can you please place your signature and
10 today's date on this diagram?
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Mr. Rodic, do you have elements for a radio link on this diagram
13 to explain to us?
14 A. No. That was not part of my analysis. I only said that this was
15 one type of a radio link. I simply wanted to state that this particular
16 link is a directed, point-to-point communication which is very important
17 for the interception of conversations.
18 Q. Do you wish to say that if one wishes to hear the participants in
19 a conversation, there must not exist a single obstacle between these two
21 A. According to the regulations governing radio relaying, there must
22 not be a single physical obstacle along not only the route that was
23 plotted here but between the two points, there has to be what I called
24 radio visibility. This means that below this particular line drawn here,
25 there must not be any obstacles such as mountains and so on and so forth.
1 This is the principle governing radio relaying. The energy between these
2 two points is transmitted as an ellipsoid. The area within the ellipsoid
3 must be free. This is called the first Frenel [phoen] zone, a free zone.
4 This term is contained in my expert report.
5 Q. Mr. Rodic, before we move on to diagram or figure 18, let us go
6 back to appendix 1 or -- yes, appendix 1, which was used in
7 Mr. Zivanovic's examination.
8 A. Yes. I see it on my monitor. I don't know if you have it.
9 Q. That's 1322, appendix 1. And if possible, that same appendix that
10 was shown to you by Mr. Zivanovic, could it please be called up on our
12 A. I don't have it here.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I hope there will not be any
14 problems about admitting this document into evidence. I don't want to
15 introduce any extra markings on it, just ask for some further
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections? I don't see any. I would leave it
18 there for the time being and we'll deal with it at the end of the
19 testimony, because it may well be made use of by others. So go ahead.
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Rodic, in your analysis, and in the course of today's
22 testimony, you used the words "radio relay route, radio relay path, radio
23 relay node, radio relay station, intercepting station" so I wish to put a
24 few questions in relation to this map. For example with reference to
25 Vlasenica and Veliki Zep, is that a radio relay route or path or what is
2 A. I may not have been sufficiently clear, although I don't think the
3 questions themselves called for these explanations. So Trasa is -- or a
4 route is one that goes via various different devices. So a radio relay
5 route, the route goes from Vlasenica via Veliki Zep, Cer and Gucevo to
6 Zvornik. So all of that together is a route. It's similar to roads, for
8 What I referred to as a path is between two points. So one path
9 is between Vlasenica-Veliki Zep, a second path is between Veliki Zep and
10 Cer. A third between Cer and Gucevo, and the fourth path between Gucevo
11 and Zvornik. Direction is something that is frequently confused with a
12 path, but on the Vlasenica-Veliki Zep, when we call it a direction, that
13 means we have to mention the frequencies, the azimuth and so on. It
14 involves different information. If we refer to it as a path we are simply
15 referring to the part of the route that goes from point A to point B.
16 A radio relay direction, when we talk about a direction, we have
17 to mention all the different details such as the frequency, azimuth,
18 information pertaining to the antenna and so on and so forth. When we
19 radio relay experts talk to each other, we sometimes call the
20 Vlasenica-Veliki Zep direction which might mean that we are looking from
21 Vlasenica towards Veliki Zep, because only so can we say that the antenna
22 in Vlasenica is oriented towards Veliki Zep. When we refer to it as a
23 path, then it doesn't matter whether we are looking from Vlasenica towards
24 Veliki Zep or the other way round. Did you also ask me --
25 Q. Yes. I asked you about the nodes and the stations.
1 A. Yes. Well, it's like this: It wasn't I who introduced these
2 terms. It's according to the rules of communication. The terminal radio
3 relay station is the station within a command where there are requirements
4 or needs to establish radio relay communications. This is all
5 concentrated here. Getting information in the direction of Veliki Zep,
6 which is where the end users are. So the place where the end users are,
7 that's the terminal radio relay station.
8 Veliki Zep is a node. There would be no need for it to exist if
9 one could transmit from Vlasenica to Zvornik directly. But as geography
10 does not allow it, you need to have these nodes established for reasons of
11 optical visibility so that you can reach one terminal radio relay station
12 from the other terminal radio relay station. So the reason they are
13 called nodes is that telephone channels from various directions cross
14 here. It's like a junction or a crossing. So it is a crossing of various
15 telephone channels coming from different directions, and RRU, RRU-800, SMC
16 and so on.
17 When there is no need for channels to cross, then the packet of
18 channels that arrives from one direction is simply transmitted through
19 multiplex to another, all the channels are packed and they go on -- go
20 further. That's in an intermediate station. There is no need for
21 telephone channels to cross here at stations. There is only an official
23 Q. Do you know that in the army of Republika Srpska there were some
24 channels that were protected, some links that were protected?
25 A. That is a more modern type of radio relay, in terms of
1 generations. It's digital and as it's digital, group crypto protection
2 can be introduced at various radio relay directions, from the -- from one
3 end user to another. There was cryptographic protection for the
4 communication. This is a combined system and in this particular case in
5 the Army of Republika Srpska, as in the whole of the Army of Yugoslavia,
6 what was there, because it was inherited, we had Siemens relay equipment,
7 and the encryption and multiplex devices were Swiss-made as was another
8 part of the equipment so that cryptographic protection had to be there
9 from one end user to another. It could not be broken for any reason.
10 According to my documents, there is not a single transcript showing that
11 communications carried out according to this system had been intercepted.
12 Q. Are you aware that the command of the Main Staff, its commander,
13 the Chief of Staff, and corps commanders used these kind of
14 communications, the president of the republic used -- also used encrypted
15 communications? Do you know about this?
16 A. I know in principle who was able to have such communications. The
17 same principle applied in Republika Srpska that had applied in
18 Yugoslavia. It was the highest-ranking and top military and political
19 leaders who used such encrypted communications, because the equipment and
20 the sets were limited. As far as I know, this was used from the Main
21 Staff down to corps level, and exceptionally perhaps at lower levels. I
22 didn't carry out an analysis for the entire army, but only in connection
23 with Veliki Zep because I have the diagram here and my finding is that no
24 such communication line or link was compromised.
25 Q. At the beginning, we looked at diagram 18, so I would like to ask
1 you to go back to it now. And could we just zoom in on it a little bit?
2 A. This shows the radio relay route from Vlasenica to Zvornik, with
3 the equipment used for transmission. If you look at it in Vlasenica there
4 was an RRU-800 set, the antenna was directed towards Veliki Zep, and to
5 this was connected a multiplex-type device, 24, which means that this
6 direction could have up to 24 analog telephone channels.
7 It also shows the frequencies, the transmission frequencies 1 and
8 2. I've already mentioned the numbers of the frequencies, so I won't
9 repeat them. This direction had its number from the documentation, from
10 the documentation of the Drina Corps, we see that it bears the number
11 0607. At Veliki Zep, apart from receiving signals from this direction,
12 from the direction of Cer, there was a 1058 radio set with a capacity of
13 120 telephone channels, and the multiplex V 120.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down?
15 A. Here, the channels at the level of channels, at the level of one
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, Mr. Rodic, please slow down because the
18 interpreters are not catching up with you. Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
20 The lines from both directions could be combined, channel to
21 channel, according to the plan for communications of the Main Staff and
22 the Drina Corps. At the same time, I showed here the RRU-1. In
23 preparation I did not determine the end location because there was more
24 than one. These locations changed according to need. That is a tactical
25 level device and communications through it can be established according to
1 a particular situation, and usually they last for as long as the action
2 lasts, and then the direction is changed.
3 There may have been rather long periods when RRU-1 was used for
4 communications for smaller tactical units, but it had one telephone
5 channel which could enter the system so that there was no need to have a
6 direction with RRU-1 towards Vlasenica because it fitted into the system
7 from RRU-800.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Let me interrupt you for a moment. On this diagram, can you
10 explain how the encrypted communications were transmitted from the Main
12 A. Well, that's not in this diagram, because I did not analyse
13 encrypted communications. If somebody wants to study them in detail, they
14 are in the diagram of encrypted communications in document (0) 433-6629.
15 What can be seen in connection with the Drina Corps command is that from
16 Veliki Zep towards Vlasenica, if I can see correctly, was direction 0674,
17 with a total capacity of eight telephone channels, which had their own
18 cryptographic protection. These channels could be switched over to,
19 towards the Main Staff or towards other units. One can see who the users
20 were, but my analysis did not concern the encrypted communications.
21 However, I can explain, if you need any further explanation.
22 Let me just add that from Veliki Zep to the Main Staff,
23 communications went by cable, not through the ether. They were wire
24 communications, not air communications. They were completely protected
25 from any possibility of interception.
1 Q. And finally, Mr. Rodic, you spent some 30 years serving either in
2 the former JNA or in the federal army. Did you have any experience in
3 that army with intercepting communications and can you tell us who was
4 trained or dealt in intercepting communications?
5 A. In my experience, as regards interception, I did not deal with
6 that. However, when I was designing and setting up communications, I had
7 to investigate whether the communications would cross the border.
8 Let me describe one experience I had when, from Brindisi to
9 Venice, I spent about 10 days on a ship where my team, with experts from
10 the institute examined how information leaked in the direction of Italy.
11 That was sometime in 1987. We were not intercepting or writing down the
12 conversations from the army of Yugoslavia that were leaking out. We were
13 just trying to establish whether it was possible to listen in to our
14 communications from boats on the Adriatic and to correct them so that our
15 communications would not go in the direction of Italy but along the
17 As I was in the sector for communications, information technology
18 and other electronic communications, I studied these principles so that as
19 far as I was able to understand, the level of expertise needed for
20 somebody to engage in intercepting, what I can say is as follows: In the
21 army of Serbia and also Montenegro towards the end of my service, the
22 conscripts would spend about 12 months in the army. The service for
23 electronic reconnaissance and surveillance received into its ranks only A
24 category soldiers, which meant the men had to be in good health, they had
25 to be intelligent, agile, and have good hearing.
1 Such men were taken to very modern laboratories with the same
2 technology that was actually in use, and they would spend six months there
3 on intensive training. After those six months, they would go to various
4 military units of the corresponding kind and there they would have further
5 practice. At the end of those six months, they were not able to
6 independently carry out complex tasks. They were assigned auxiliary
7 tasks. And when they were called up into the reserves, they were given
8 additional intensive training in order for them to keep up their skills
9 and to be able to intercept conversations at a certain level. However, it
10 was officers or commanders with many years of experience in this specialty
11 who actually intercepted conversations.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. I have no
13 further questions.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Josse?
15 MR. JOSSE: We do have some cross-examination, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Before you do so, Mr. Sarapa, are you
17 confirming that the Pandurevic Defence team doesn't wish to put any
18 questions to the witness?
19 MR. SARAPA: No, Your Honour, we have no questions.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.
21 Mr. Josse.
22 MR. JOSSE: If the Chamber were contemplating a break, I would
23 rather do my cross-examination of a piece, and taking the break now would
24 suit me enormously.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: How long do you expect your cross-examination to
2 MR. JOSSE: At least 15 minutes, perhaps 20.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Because we have 15 minutes or 17 minutes now.
4 MR. JOSSE: I'll start.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And if you're not finished we'll take another
6 extra five minutes before we break.
7 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:
9 Q. Mr. Rodic, the first thing I'd like to ask you about is something
10 that my learned friend Mr. Petrusic has just cross-examined you or
11 examined you, perhaps I should say, about, and this relates to the
12 communications between the president of the Republika Srpska and the
13 command of the Main Staff. You'd mentioned that these were encrypted
14 communications; is that right?
15 A. My task was not to analyse that type of communications. However,
16 based on this diagram, it can be --
17 Q. Could I -- I'm going to stop you for a --
18 A. There. I did not go into that because I was not given that sort
19 of task. Here at Veliki Zep, you have one channel for the government of
20 Republika Srpska.
21 Q. Could I say, Mr. Rodic, I'm very anxious that you do not stray
22 into areas where you quite properly say you either have not spent
23 sufficient time examining or alternatively you say for one reason or
24 another you don't have sufficient expertise in relation to, so I accept
25 your answer and I'm going to move on to a different topic, if I may.
1 A. If you will allow me to say this, I am an expert in that field but
2 I was not asked to do that.
3 Q. Thank you. So in other words, if you were given more time, you
4 could research it but you haven't done so for the purpose of your
5 testimony today. That's what you're saying?
6 A. More time and more documents, or rather documents.
7 Q. There are two other areas that I wish to ask you about, and if
8 your answer is the same, please let the Chamber know.
9 The first of those two areas relates to what we in this case have
10 called Paket communications. Does that it expression mean anything to
12 A. Do you mean documents of the BH army?
13 Q. I do.
14 A. I used one term, and that was a package of -- a packet of
15 telephone channels, which had to do with the total capacity of telephone
16 channels along those links. Are you referring to the Paket radio in the
17 context of the BH documents?
18 Q. I am. Let me show you an example. Could the witness be shown
19 6D47, please?
20 We've simply called this up as an example of what I'm referring
21 to. It's what you've just described, isn't it?
22 A. What is the question again?
23 Q. This is an example of what you've just described, isn't it, the
24 type of communication that you were just talking about?
25 A. I don't understand what your question is in relation to this.
1 Q. I'd simply called this document up so that everyone could know
2 what I was referring to. I want to ask you about the Paket communication
3 that you have just described.
4 A. I did not include Paket communication in my analysis. It's quite
5 a different principle of transmission. In short, my analysis did not
6 refer to Paket communication.
7 Q. Were you familiar with Paket communication from your work during
8 the war?
9 A. While I was performing those duties, that sort of Paket
10 communication had not been introduced in the army of Yugoslavia.
11 Q. Let me ask you another question, and of course, say if you can't
12 answer this. Do you know, for example, where the communication centre was
13 located within the Srebrenica enclave, the centre of the 28th Division?
14 A. No. I don't know that. Had I known this piece of information and
15 the frequencies, I would have processed it in my report. I didn't know
16 the end point or the frequencies used for that communication.
17 Q. Right. I'll try my luck with my third line of examination, and
18 it's this: You were briefed to examine --
19 A. I'm not receiving anything.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we may have a problem. Madam Usher,
21 could you just give first aid first and then we see --
22 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, perhaps we could take the break. I would
23 now appreciate it.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll have a 25-minute break. Thank you.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.39 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.
3 MR. JOSSE: The break has proved very fruitful and on reflection,
4 I'm going to abandon the third line of cross-examination and I'm going to
5 sit down.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That concludes the -- that concludes the
7 cross-examination -- the examination-in-chief and one cross-examination.
8 Mr. Vanderpuye, have you distributed the list of documents that
9 you intended to use?
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe I have, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I hope that the Defence teams don't just
12 believe they have it but they are certain they do.
13 So let's commence.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Good
15 afternoon to you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And may I ask you how long you expect your
19 cross-examination to last?
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I had initially estimated I think about two
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: And I know that the witness has some pressing
24 concerns of his own. I'll try and -- I'll try and come as close to
25 finishing as I can, but I'm not certain that I can in the time that's
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You promise to graduate us from layman to at least
3 mini experts on the subject, take as much time as you like.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, thank you. Good afternoon.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon. So let's proceed.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
7 Q. You've put together a very detailed and technical analysis of the
8 possibility of interception, as you've indicated, on the route between
9 Vlasenica and Zvornik. Now, as an expert you have to be neutral. Is that
10 fair to say?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And you also have to be objective in the analysis that you
13 perform, right?
14 A. Of course.
15 Q. Okay. And you have to take into consideration very carefully all
16 of the information with which you've been provided, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the information you were provided with, you also have to
19 scrutinise to determine if it's sufficient in order to draw a conclusion
20 from it, right?
21 A. Right. Insofar as my expertise permits me to.
22 Q. You have to also scrutinise the information to determine if it's
23 accurate and reliable, right?
24 A. As far as I was able to examine it and as far as the circumstances
1 Q. And of course you have to scrutinise all of that information to
2 determine if it's reliable, right?
3 A. Insofar as I was able to, given the documentation that I was able
4 to collect under the circumstances.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you've made several references to the documentation
6 that you've examined in support of the report that you generated. Now, is
7 the documentation that you examined the same documentation that's appended
8 to your report?
9 A. If you're referring to the documentation of the Drina Corps,
10 that's to say of the Main Staff, yes. Is that the documentation you have
11 in mind?
12 Q. Maybe I should rephrase the question. I don't think I -- I think
13 I can make it a little clearer. Did you examine any other documentation
14 than the documentation that's included in your report?
15 A. These were the documents that I appended and included in my list
16 and in my report.
17 Q. Okay. So you've not examined any other documents other than the
18 documents that are included in this report or relied on any other
19 documents other than the documents included in this report; is that right?
20 A. They were the documents I examined. There were other documents
21 that I did not consider important for my analysis.
22 Q. All right. Now, when you created this analysis or when you
23 engaged in this analysis, you knew that this was a report that was going
24 to be tendered in this case, right?
25 A. Of course. I wasn't aware of the full procedure at the time, but
1 I knew it was to be material tendered before a court of law.
2 Q. So you knew that it carried with it the potential to be relied
3 upon by the Defence counsel, by the Prosecution and even by the Court when
4 you prepared it, right?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. Now, the documents that you reviewed, that you've just referred
7 to, were those documents provided to you by Defence counsel or were they
8 documents that you came into on your own?
9 A. I didn't obtain any documents on my own, independently, and I'm
10 referring to the documents themselves. Neither did I have any opportunity
11 to do that.
12 Q. Okay. Just so that I'm clear, with respect to the intercepts that
13 you looked at that are included or referenced in your report, those are
14 documents that were provided to you by Defence counsel; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, with respect to the documents showing the specifications of
17 the equipment that you analysed in relation to the possibility of
18 interception, those were documents -- well, let me ask you: Where did
19 those documents originate? Where did you get them?
20 A. The documents relative to the equipment in possession of the BH
21 army were given to me by the Defence. As for the technical
22 specifications, I collected those myself over the internet.
23 Q. Now, the documents showing the VRS communications setup for the
24 route that you analysed, was that a document that was given to you by the
25 Defence as well?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And these are all documents that you relied upon in reaching the
3 conclusions that you drew at the end of your report; is that fair to say?
4 A. I don't understand the question.
5 Q. The documents that are appended to your report are documents that
6 you relied on in reaching the conclusions that you made about the
7 possibility of interception by the ABiH army, right?
8 A. Yes. The documents, I said originated from the command of the
9 Drina Corps and the Main Staff. May I state the number of documents or
10 the number of the document? Is it necessary?
11 Q. I think you can. That's fine.
12 A. This is document in appendix 12, number 04314791.
13 Q. Now, you know -- sorry, go ahead.
14 A. In appendix 13, 04314792. In appendix 14, 0426990, and in
15 appendix 15, 0426703, and in appendix 16, 04336628.
16 Q. Okay. Now, you know as an expert that even though it may be
17 inevitable, it's important to avoid making assumptions, right?
18 A. Of course.
19 Q. Because you recognise that if you make an incorrect assumption,
20 that could make a technical report such as the one you generated factually
21 erroneous, right?
22 A. I don't know where it was that I made any assumptions.
23 Q. All right. Well, I'm just talking in generalities right now, and
24 we'll go to more specific instances a little bit later on. You can agree
25 that if you make an assumption that's incorrect or rely on an assumption
1 that's incorrect, it can result in an error in a technical report, right?
2 A. To a certain extent, yes, more or less.
3 Q. And it can also result in a theoretical flaw in a technical
4 report, right?
5 A. I don't understand the question.
6 Q. Would you agree that it's a better practice and more accurate when
7 you're making a technical report to rely on facts that can be established
8 or substantiated than it is to rely on an assumption?
9 A. Right. That's correct.
10 Q. When you're generating a technical report and you do rely on an
11 assumption, can we agree that it's important to identify what that
12 assumption is?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. It's also important to have evaluated the assumption itself, to
15 see if it's reasonable under the circumstances, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it's also important to indicate in the report itself the
18 extent to which an assumption underlies a given conclusion, isn't that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And in this case, when you generated the report, that's what you
22 tried to do, isn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you checked to make sure that the assumptions that you made
25 were reasonable, right?
1 A. I believe they are reasonable.
2 Q. And you checked to make sure that the assumptions that you relied
3 upon could be substantiated, right?
4 A. Yes. I will try to substantiate them.
5 Q. I think you indicated at the very beginning of your testimony that
6 the objective of your analysis was to assess the possibility of
7 interception along the Vlasenica-Zvornik route during the period of June
8 through August of 1995; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you --
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Sorry. You were hired by the Defence to provide an opinion about
13 that possibility; isn't that true?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So if I understand your report, and I probably -- I'm going to
16 make a lot of mistakes about it because it's very technical, but if I
17 understand it, your report is limited strictly to this objective, isn't
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So you didn't consider the possibility of interception along other
21 radio relay routes; is that fair to say?
22 A. Only for the ones that I indicated. They were the objective.
23 Q. Okay. Now, aside from the routes themselves, you didn't consider
24 the possibility of frequencies corresponding to routes other than the ones
25 that you examined when you analysed the documents; is that right?
1 A. Can you please repeat your question?
2 Q. Maybe I can put it in a bit of context for you. I think when you
3 were asked on direct examination whether or not there was a possibility of
4 interception, you indicated that one of the reasons there wasn't was
5 because the frequencies didn't correspond to the existing plan; isn't that
7 A. Yes, of course.
8 Q. So my question is, did you consider the possibility that the
9 frequencies might correspond to other routes?
10 A. I was interested in the route that was given to me as an
11 assignment. I did not consider the entire network or in the general area,
12 except for the 630 850, where I said that according to BH Army documents
13 it originated from the Sarajevo area.
14 Q. Now, when you say 380, at least that's what the record says, that
15 doesn't correspond to either a RRU-1 or an RRU-800 device; is that right?
16 A. 630, not 380 but 630 and 850. One was of 630 megahertz and the
17 other one of 850. It may have been a slip on my part. I'm sorry.
18 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. I just wanted to make sure it was
19 accurate on the record. You didn't consider the possibility of
20 interception of mobile communications equipment, did you?
21 A. No. That was not my task and I'm not an expert on that.
22 Q. But you do know, in your experience, that an RRU device can be
23 mobile or mobilised?
24 A. Which? RRU -- RRU-1 or 800?
25 Q. RRU-1 and RRU-800.
1 A. I explained that RRU-800 was used for stationary communications
2 systems. It can also be used in a transported communications system in
3 which case it is transported in a cab. As for the RRU-1, I said that it
4 can be carried by a soldier depending on the mobility. It can be
5 dislocated from one point to another. I believe I was quite clear on
7 Q. Well, I'm only asking whether or not an RRU-800 is a device that
8 can be moved and operate in a moving, for example, a vehicle?
9 A. It cannot. It's not a radio set. I was quite clear. I said it
10 was directed communication, and it requires quite a lot of practice to
11 move it from one point, and especially impossible is to do that on a
12 moving vehicle. That's a nonsense. The same goes for RRU-1. If you have
13 a directed antenna, then it constitutes directed communications. It can
14 have a directed antenna. It can operate with that. But with that sort of
15 antenna, you cannot set up a point-to-point communications link, which was
16 my task.
17 Q. All right. I think that's clear. I'm not sure if I understand
18 it, but I think it's clear.
19 Now, were you aware of any RRU-800 devices that may have been in
20 locations other than the specific locations that you've indicated on the
21 route that you analysed?
22 A. I'm not aware of that. I did not analyse that because I had the
23 entire diagram of communications, and I had the tasks that I was given.
24 Q. Okay. Now, the entire diagram of communications you looked at,
25 though, didn't include any RRU-800s that might be mounted on a vehicle,
1 for example, not a vehicle in motion but just mounted on a vehicle. Is
2 that fair to say?
3 A. I'm not aware of that. I had the entire diagram of communications
4 and it included stationary elements only.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you would agree, wouldn't you, that the potential
6 existence of such devices, within the context of analysing the possibility
7 of interception of those devices, is something that's relevant to your
8 analysis, wouldn't you?
9 A. It's not relevant, when it comes to RRU-800 I was looking at the
10 stationary communications systems operating out of the facilities that
11 were known to have been communications centres. I did not analyse
12 anything that may have been in motion or outside of these facilities. I
13 didn't have information to that effect.
14 Q. Okay. Now, the information that you might have had wasn't
15 provided to you; is that fair to say?
16 A. I was provided with the information I have included in my
17 analysis. I did not have any other information.
18 Q. Let me ask you this: Did you ask for any other information? Did
19 you seek that out?
20 A. I could have asked for information but only through the Defence
21 team. As an individual, there was nobody else I could contact in this
22 regard, either in my country or, let's say, the other country. And they
23 will explain how they came by the documents. I'm not going into that.
24 Q. But you didn't ask the Defence team for those documents or to see
25 if there were such documents at all, did you?
1 A. Of course I did, but I can't ask for specific documents as I don't
2 know what documents there are. I was looking for the diagram of the Drina
3 Corps communications system, but I didn't ask for this information in
4 relation to other corps since that was not the object of my study. Nor
5 did I ask about other systems such as radio, Paket radio, if they had it
6 because again that was not my task.
7 Q. Well, you have a lot of experience in analysing and maybe even
8 designing radio relay communications systems; isn't that true?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. A great deal of experience in -- and great understanding in how
11 those communications work and the devices that are involved in that
12 communication system, right?
13 A. Well, with respect to the technology used in my generation, yes, I
14 think so. I don't have all the technical details at my fingertips but the
15 analysis, yes.
16 Q. Well, so you know that if an RRU-800 device can be integrated into
17 a stationary system, that's something that's worth considering in
18 determining whether or not an interception can occur on that line; isn't
19 that true?
20 A. I didn't understand your question. Could you please repeat it? I
21 don't see what you're getting at.
22 Q. You know that an RRU-800 device can communicate within the
23 stationary system that you analysed, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it doesn't have to be a stationary RRU-800 device that
1 communicates with -- within that system?
2 A. It doesn't have to be stationary, but in this case, it was.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. There were facilities where that device was located. Even if the
5 device were on a vehicle, in the cabin of the vehicle, but it's at the
6 command where it's being used, it can stand there for months or years, and
7 then it's stationary. It doesn't matter whether it's on wheels or in a
9 Q. Okay. Well, if it can stay there for months or years, then it
10 means it can move from one place to another during that time, doesn't it?
11 A. No, because there is no communication then left for that command.
12 Q. What I mean is that -- I'm sorry, finish your answer.
13 A. If one device is providing communications for a particular
14 command, the device is dislocated, but the command is not, that would mean
15 that the command would have no means of communication.
16 Q. Well, have you ever in your experience known a command to move
17 from one location to another?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Well, when a command moves and it's connected by an RRU-800 device
20 that's in a cab or a vehicle, what happens to the cab or the vehicle with
21 the RRU-800 device? Is it left where it was or does it go with the
23 A. Of course it goes with the command.
24 Q. So if the command moves from one place to another in a period of,
25 say, about two years, it's possible that an RRU-800 device attached to the
1 command would move with it, right?
2 A. It's possible.
3 Q. Which means it might not be in the same place as it was two years
4 prior, right?
5 A. As a rule, yes, but in my analysis, it was there.
6 Q. Okay. Now, I think I heard you say during the course of your
7 direct testimony that you actually went to Veliki Zep at some point during
8 August of 1995; is that right?
9 A. Mid-August, yes.
10 Q. And during that period of time, you had an opportunity to evaluate
11 the equipment that was being used there. Was that the purpose of your
13 A. Not to evaluate the equipment but to improve the situation, not
14 only that facility but in other facilities in the Republika Srpska.
15 Q. When you say improve the situation, what exactly do you mean by
17 A. We had a team equipped with the appropriate instruments and some
18 reserve parts, and to the best of our ability, we improved the quality of
19 communication on the radio relay paths. Up to that point, the quality
20 was -- well, it had been very bad, because there was no money to buy spare
21 parts, the experts in the former Yugoslavia had been located in the large
22 centres, so that some commands were left without the appropriate equipment
23 or reserve parts, so our aim was to improve this situation.
24 Q. I think you also indicated that there was an SMC line that runs
25 along the route from Veliki Zep to Cer; is that right?
1 A. I didn't only indicate that, but as I mentioned twice I serviced
2 it on two occasions, once when it was shelled and it didn't exist any
3 more -- well, actually, three times. The first time it was set up, I was
4 not then at Veliki Zep but on the opposite side, at Cer, when the Cer-
5 Veliki Zep communication was redirected, because before that it was
6 operated according to another plan through Zlovrh, which was, which the BH
7 Army had taken and it couldn’t any more… there were no conditions for that
8 path to be used… but I wasn't at Veliki Zep. I was at Cer then.
9 Q. Okay. And when was that, so we are clear?
10 A. I don't know what the date is. You might be able to check when
11 Zlovrh was taken by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I have forgotten the
12 time exactly, the dates.
13 Q. Okay. And when you were -- well, when you were in Veliki Zep, was
14 that in August of 1995? That is correct, right?
15 A. Yes. That was the last time.
16 Q. And while you were there, did you service that line? I think you
17 mentioned you did that a couple of times.
18 A. Primarily we fixed those 120-channel paths because they were the
19 most important ones and then also the 24-channel ones with the RRU-800.
20 Q. Okay. And how long were you at that facility in August of 1995
21 fixing those parts?
22 A. I think we completed that in two days.
23 Q. Before you arrived there, did you get any information as to how
24 long the problem had existed with those parts?
25 A. We were not given information about problems only that facility
1 but the entire network. So we made a plan and went from one facility to
2 the next. So we didn't go there only because of Veliki Zep but also
3 because of Kozara, Klekovaca, and other radio relay nodes, Banja Luka, Kmur.
4 Q. Okay. So there were problems that were pervasive within the
5 system of communications; is that right?
6 A. Yes. There were problems. For example, there was a double
7 transmitter and a receiver, SMC, which had to be repaired to the best of
8 our ability, but we didn't have spare parts. As for RRU-800, there were
9 bad connections of the antenna systems which had been corroded by rain.
10 That was a tube, not a transistor, and the tubes were almost unusable. We
11 had some spare parts, so we made a plan to improve the most important
12 routes as best we could.
13 Q. Just so I'm clear, before you went to Veliki Zep in August, 1995,
14 you didn't have any information as to how long the SMC line had had
15 problems; is that fair to say?
16 A. Let me repeat: We went all over the network and we ourselves
17 found where the problems were, to remove them. It wasn't that we were
18 invited especially to Veliki Zep, because it was a lengthy process that we
19 were in, not just there. We also went to the Republic of Srpska Krajina,
20 and after that we arrived in the Republika Srpska.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, in preparing your analysis in this particular
22 case, you haven't -- you haven't had an opportunity to go back to Veliki
23 Zep or to Cer or to any other node that's involved in your analysis; is
24 that fair to say?
25 A. No, I did not. I did not.
1 Q. So you haven't had any field measurements that have been taken
2 with respect to the possibility of interception, which is the subject
3 matter of your report?
4 A. Unfortunately, not only that but some other things were not
5 possible with regards to technical investigations.
6 Q. Okay. Well, is one of the things that wasn't possible the
7 opportunity to examine the equipment that was actually involved during
8 this period of time?
9 A. When?
10 Q. The period of time that --
11 A. You mean when I was doing my analysis, preparing the report? No,
12 not a chance, because I have not been a member of the army for three years
13 now, three and a half.
14 Q. Now, I see you've done a lot of calculations, but did you have an
15 opportunity to conduct any tests of the same type of equipment that was
16 used back in 1995, which is the subject matter of your report?
17 A. When preparing my analysis, you mean, for the purpose of my
19 Q. For the purpose of your analysis, that's right.
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. Did you carry out any particular tests by way of computer
22 modelling programmes in order to determine whether or not your
23 calculations are accurate or the equipment could be used in a way that it
24 was claimed to have been used?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Are you aware of any such programmes, by the way, sir?
2 A. I have never had any such computer programmes in my experience.
3 Q. All right. So you're unaware that such programmes exist?
4 A. Well, to be quite honest, I don't understand your question. I
5 don't know what you're asking me about.
6 Q. Okay. In your consideration of the documents that are included or
7 referenced in your report, you didn't consider the factual content of the
8 intercepts themselves; is that fair to say?
9 A. No, I didn't consider the factual content. I was interested in
10 the possibility of intercepting, that is the frequencies, the devices
11 used, the kind of antenna used. That's the level I was interested in. I
12 wasn't interested in the content.
13 Q. All right. So you never analysed anything like statements or
14 testimony of anybody who has any knowledge about this type of equipment?
15 A. You mean equipment used for intercepting?
16 Q. Yes, sir.
17 A. Can you be more specific?
18 Q. The equipment used for intercepting, yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: If you can be specific with the witness, I think it
20 would help, Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'll rephrase the question.
22 Q. Did you ask for any information concerning what was claimed with
23 respect to how the intercepting equipment was used, of Defence counsel?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And can you tell us what, if anything, you learned as a
1 result of that question?
2 A. Nothing.
3 Q. Did you ask to see the statements of any of the operators that
4 claimed to have intercepted communications from the ABiH?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you consider the possibility that that information may be
7 relevant or helpful to your analysis as to the possibility of intercepting
8 VRS communications along the route that you analysed?
9 A. I relied only on the documents where the intercepters were
10 describing or commenting how they were doing their intercepts, what their
11 problems were, their comments on the quality and so on. But not their
12 statements. I did not have occasion to hear their statements or their
13 testimonies. I saw a map that they generated concerning the connections
14 they intercepted. That was two days ago.
15 Q. Okay. Now, that map isn't obviously, I guess, included in your
16 report, right?
17 A. No, it couldn't have been because I submitted my report long ago
18 and secondly I would not have taken it into consideration anyway.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. Although it does confirm some of what I said.
21 Q. Well, having seen the map, does it confirm the location of the
22 intercept sites that you've indicated in your report exist?
23 A. That map does not cover the intercepting centres but only the
24 facilities of the army of Republika Srpska around Zepa, the Drina Corps
25 area, and there are many imprecisions in it. I might be able to comment
1 on the map if you were to show it to me, although I don't attach any great
2 significance to it.
3 Q. Okay. Now -- well, one of the conclusions you drew in your report
4 was that based on an analysis of the documents that you saw, it appeared
5 as though the ABH army did not have an understanding of the communications
6 system that you analysed; isn't that true?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Well, did you compare that against the map that you saw a couple
9 of days ago?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did that map contain locations such as Veliki Zep?
12 A. It -- the locations were there, but I reached my conclusions
13 before I had the map, and secondly, as an intercepter, I would not
14 establish the azimuths of intercepting in any direction but Veliki Zep,
15 and according to their documents, they did not do this. So my conclusion
16 was that they were not aware of the largest facility. You can see the
17 angles they worked with, from the northern and southern intercepting
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic?
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I think that on
21 page 75, line 11, there is an omission in the interpretation, because he
22 said that the location was there but was not entered into -- in correctly,
23 and that was omitted in the interpretation, at least so it seemed to me.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously, I didn't hear that. So if the witness
25 can confirm it. What did you say exactly? You were asked, "And did the
1 map contain locations such as Veliki Zep?" What was the first part of
2 your answer?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer was that the location of
4 Veliki Zep is marked on the map, but the location of Vlasenica is not
5 where it is purported to be in that map. Neither is the Zvornik
6 location. It corresponds to what I see in my documentation, that the
7 SMC route Veliki Zep-Cer is functioning, that there is the Cer-Gucevo
8 route, the Gucevo-Zvornik route.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Vanderpuye, because you've got very
10 little time left.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. All right. You say that the indication on that map, on that map,
13 Vlasenica isn't in the right place; is that right?
14 A. The way the symbol on the radio relay station is drawn in, no. If
15 they thought it was there, it wasn't. I'd like to see the map because now
16 I'm referring to it on the basis of my recollection. I did not use that
17 map to make my analysis so I don't remember every detail in it. I might
18 be able to indicate other things in it. For example, there was an SMC
19 route drawn in which never actually was in operation, and you can see
20 that. There is their frequency, which has been entered into the map, from
21 Gucevo towards Zvornik, but they don't have it in their intercepts.
22 Q. Okay. So you did see in that map the locations Vlasenica, wrong
23 as it may be, Veliki Zep --
24 A. Judging by the symbol, although -- well, they used the symbol for the
25 terminal radio relay station, but there was no communication centre there.
1 Q. All right. You saw the location Cer marked on that map?
2 A. That map is very bad, but I think that location is there, and it
3 corresponds to the actual situation.
4 Q. Crni Vrh, did you see that there on the map?
5 A. I did, but that map is not very clear. So I don't know whether
6 it's on the peak or whether it's dislocated, but there is the Gucevo-Crni
7 Vrh location there, yes.
8 Q. All right. Okay. Could I have 65 ter number 1468, please, on the
9 screen? I will preface this by saying it's not on my exhibit list.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Where is Mr. Bourgon?
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I just want to confirm which map it is he saw.
12 That's the whole purpose of it.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you have the hard copy here? Perhaps you
14 can -- I know the one. I mean, you don't need to --
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't have it.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's coming up, anyway. It's coming up. Thank you,
17 Mr. Zivanovic.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is the map that we showed the
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can show it to him as well while it
21 comes up, because it's going to take all our time.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: That would actually be preferable if he could.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Show it to Mr. Vanderpuye first and then to the
25 Show it to the witness.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, just to clarify a
2 point, the map that the witness has, the Veliki Zep-Zvornik area has been
3 enlarged, which is why the title we see here is missing, working map,
4 radna carta, because this map covers all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so the
5 copy that the witness has is not completely identical to the one on the
6 screen because a section has been enlarged and the other sections which
7 are not relevant have been left out.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I remember that because we had to use the same map
9 twice, top part, bottom part, and to the right and to the left.
10 Yes. Do you want to proceed on this any further?
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I just want him to confirm if the map he has in
12 front of him now is the map that he was shown. I accept my colleague's
13 representation, but I think the witness should answer for the record.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it the one, Mr. Rodic?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the map I saw two or three
16 days ago. Yes.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE:
18 Q. Let me just ask you this, and I see it's 7.00, so this will be
19 it. The map that's depicted on your screen now, do you see it?
20 A. Just a moment.
21 Q. It's quite small.
22 A. Yes. Not too well.
23 Q. Okay. If we could move it a little bit down and to the right?
24 A. This part -- I see Veliki Zep, that part.
25 Q. Okay. Now, the map itself, in its totality, you haven't seen
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thank you. The SMC line that is on the map that you did see, is
4 that SMC -- does it accurately represent the path of that SMC line, as you
5 understood it to be in your report?
6 A. That's this particular line.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. The thick one.
9 Q. Could you put it on the ELMO so that everybody could see what
10 you're pointing at?
11 Thank you, Madam Usher.
12 A. I'm showing the direction from Veliki Zep to Cer, which was set up
13 by an SMC 1306b device.
14 Q. And on this map, the one that you saw, that particular SMC path
15 goes in the right direction and from the right place to Cer, doesn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'll leave it at that at this point,
18 Mr. President, with your leave.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much for your cooperation,
20 Mr. Vanderpuye, and also for the -- to the Defence teams for their
21 cooperation. Yeah, I know. You need more time for -- to cross-examine
22 this witness or have you finished?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, no. I need a lot more time, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: This witness, I understand, however, will be going
25 home today, no, or tomorrow? But you will need to return. How much more
1 time do you require?
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Probably --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Anyway, you will inform us. Mr. Rodic, all
5 you need to do is to let us know when you think you will be available
6 again so that we can call you back, so that we finish with your testimony.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How many days ahead of my testimony
8 should I let you know?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: As soon as you can, you will let us know, and then
10 you will only need to be here for one day.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That will be enough, I take it. All right. You
13 will only be -- need to be here for one day. So through your -- either
14 Mr. Zivanovic or I don't know who is mostly in contact with you, you will
15 let us know or you can, Mr. Zivanovic, let Mr. Vanderpuye know so that all
16 the arrangements can be put in place, including visa and travel. Thank
17 you. Have a nice weekend. We will reconvene on Tuesday, by the way,
18 because Monday is a public holiday here.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of May,
21 2007, at 9.00 a.m.