Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12669

1 Friday, 15 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [Accused Popovic and Beara not present]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you kindly

8 call the case, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

10 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am. For the record, accused Popovic

12 and Beara are still missing due to indisposition. We understand that the

13 waivers will reach us in the course of today. Do I have a confirmation of

14 that and also formal waiver from you, Mr. Zivanovic, and you Mr. Meek?

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, of course, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek?

17 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. For the record also I notice the absence

19 of Mr. Krgovic, of Ms. Condon and Mr. Ostojic. Anyone else? I don't

20 think so.

21 Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Vanderpuye.

22 And we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis today. Judge Stole

23 couldn't be with us.

24 All right. Now, we have concerns about the practice that has been

25 resorted to with some of the recent witnesses where both Prosecution and

Page 12670

1 Defence have exceeded the time that was indicated to us prior to the

2 testimony. We do understand that sometimes this can become necessary but

3 there are limits, and these limits are easy for you to understand, one of

4 which was handed to me yesterday by Mr. McCloskey himself that sometimes

5 we end up with witnesses here, staying here, for an entire week without

6 being called to testify. I think out of all the options that we have, the

7 first thing is that we try to deal with this in the same spirit that we

8 have approached the testimony from the beginning of this trial, that is

9 expecting both sides, Prosecution and Defence, to exercise self-restraint

10 and self-discipline without the need of us interfering. Please don't

11 force our hands because if you do, then we will have to intervene.

12 As regards this witness, we have given it a lot of thought and we

13 suggest to you that you do your utmost, all of you, to finish with this

14 witness today.

15 Yes, Mr. Haynes. First of all, let me say good morning to the

16 witness. Good morning, Mr. Dragutinovic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We are continuing with your testimony. Mr. Haynes

19 will continue his cross-examination. Mr. Haynes.

20 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes: [Continued]

24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dragutinovic.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 12671

1 Q. When you were giving evidence-in-chief, you told us a little bit

2 about the formation of Tactical Group 1 and I'm going to ask you just a

3 few questions about that this morning. It's right, isn't it, that the

4 formation of that group was substantially the responsibility of your

5 commander, Vinko Pandurevic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And once he had been tasked with the responsibility of forming

8 Tactical Group 1, he had to require Dragan Obrenovic to come back to

9 command the brigade because Dragan Obrenovic had been on sick leave in

10 June. That's right also, isn't it?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. I entirely understand if you couldn't answer this question, but do

13 you have any recollection of the precise date upon which Dragan Obrenovic

14 came back to the brigade on duty?

15 A. No, I don't remember the exact date.

16 Q. In relation to Tactical Group 1, you yourself gave the order to

17 march, didn't you?

18 A. Yes. I wrote it and it was on the basis of that order that the

19 march took place.

20 Q. Now, I just want to explore with you a little bit, and I'm going

21 to show you some documents to help your memory, the -- about the

22 composition of Tactical Group 1 and I wonder whether we could start by

23 having P106, at page 48, put into e-court, please. No, I'm sorry, P106.

24 I don't need a page for that document. And if the witness's attention

25 could be focused on point 2.

Page 12672

1 Can you look at that and read it to yourself, Mr. Dragutinovic,

2 and then confirm to me that the contribution that the Zvornik Brigade made

3 to Tactical Group 1 was a strengthened light infantry brigade, sorry,

4 battalion, a strengthened light infantry battalion?

5 A. Paragraph 2(A), the Zvornik Brigade has to form a unit, one light

6 battalion strong. That's what we did.

7 Q. And in terms of the precise number of men that that involved, I'm

8 going to show you another document now, it's P384, and this is page 48.

9 I think if you read through this page of the war diary, it will

10 show you that on the 4th of July, 407 men left the Standard barracks. Can

11 the page go down, please? The relevant section isn't -- there you are.

12 A. Yes. It is a document of the war diary. It says, indeed, 407

13 men. However, the number I know, and the difference is small, is 394. We

14 had formed a unit of 394 men but the discrepancy is minor.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic. That's very helpful.

16 And in fact that number of men is rather smaller than one light

17 infantry brigade, isn't it?

18 A. Light infantry battalion, not brigade.

19 Q. Sorry, my mistake again. Light infantry battalion but 394 men is

20 rather smaller than a light infantry battalion?

21 A. Battalion, yes.

22 Q. So --

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. In any event, the suggestion that the Zvornik Brigade contributed

25 two battalions to Tactical Group 1 would be quite incorrect, wouldn't it?

Page 12673

1 A. No. That is not true.

2 Q. Now, I want to move on to a particular unit of the

3 Zvornik Brigade, that's the Podrinje Detachment, which you described in

4 your evidence the other day as a manoeuvres battalion; is that correct?

5 Those are the same things?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And with the assistance of some other brigade records, I'd like to

8 confirm with you the size of that particular unit, and I wonder whether we

9 could look at P382, please. We need to go, I think, to the second page of

10 this document. Now, if you look at the fourth entry down, does that show

11 the numbers in July of 1995 of the manoeuvres battalion of the

12 Zvornik Brigade?

13 A. Yes. That is the status of the manoeuvring battalion of

14 360-something people. That's all the men who were in that manoeuvre

15 battalion but that's not just the combat component. It includes the

16 logistics and all the other non-combat components. The tactical group

17 however included only the combat component.

18 Q. And would that number also include members of that battalion who

19 were on sick leave or wounded?

20 A. Yes. This is the total number of men in that manoeuvre

21 detachment, and all those who were included in the battalion, including

22 everybody, those on sick leave, those who were wounded. They were not

23 written off. They are included in the number.

24 Q. Now, I want to move on a little to ask you about the operations

25 that that unit was involved in in June and July of 1995. It's right,

Page 12674

1 isn't it, that the manoeuvres battalion or the Podrinje Detachment, or the

2 Drina Wolves as they are sometimes known, were engaged in the region of

3 the Sarajevo Romanija brigade in July of 1995?

4 A. Yes. One part of that detachment was in the area of the Sarajevo

5 theatre of war. So not all of the detachment was part of Tactical Group

6 1.

7 Q. Thank you. And just to get some idea of how many of that

8 detachment were involved in the Sarajevo Romanija Brigade region, can we

9 have a look at P378 at page 70? If you look at the entry for 1400 hours,

10 for the 16th of June of 1995, I think you'll see that that shows that 85

11 men and eight vehicles of the manoeuvres battalion departed for the region

12 of the Sarajevo Romanija Brigade; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, yes. You can see it here. Correct.

14 Q. And was one of the commanders of that unit a man called Pepic?

15 A. Yes, that was the commander of that company that was in the

16 Sarajevo theatre of war.

17 Q. And we can see a little of what happened to him if we look at

18 P377, at page 101. Can that be placed into e-court? The time we are

19 looking for is 1405 so the page needs to go down a little bit and I think

20 that shows us from the duty officer's notebook that Pepic, the commander

21 of that brigade, was wounded in the region of Trnovo on about the 6th of

22 July; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, 394 men were contributed by the Zvornik Brigade

25 to Tactical Group 1, but that still left substantial numbers of men and

Page 12675

1 resources available to the brigade's area of defence, didn't it?

2 A. Well, yes, because this Tactical Group 1 included only one light

3 infantry battalion size unit, a smaller part of the Zvornik Brigade.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to move on now, please, to the movements

5 of Tactical Group 1, between the 4th of July and the 10th, please, and to

6 that end I'm going to ask that 7D64 be put into e-court. And when it's

7 there, we'll manoeuvre it appropriately so that you can mark it for us.

8 You might have to wait a little while, Mr. Dragutinovic. This is a map

9 and they take a bit of time to come up.

10 I think we need to go south a little, and a bit more. That's

11 perfect.

12 Now, on the first day of march, the unit left Standard. Did it

13 move all as one unit on that day?

14 A. We divided the march into two segments. In the first segment, the

15 armoured mechanised company went on the route of Bjelovac, Pribicevac, et

16 cetera and then the axis --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat that? He did that very

18 fast, much too fast.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Dragutinovic, can you repeat the last part of

20 your answer, please? You said, "We divided the march into two segments.

21 In the first segment, the armoured mechanised company went on the route of

22 Bjelovac, Pribicevac ..." Can you continue from there, please?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zvornik, Bratunac, Bjelovac, Sase,

24 Pribicevac.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And the second segment?

Page 12676

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the second one, that's the

2 infantry part, went Zvornik, Bratunac, Bjelovac, Skelani, Zeleni Jadar.


4 Q. I'm going to ask that you be provided with some pens now so you

5 can mark on this map where the units moved to. We know that you began in

6 Zvornik and you're not going to be able to show us that because it's too

7 far north on the map so perhaps you can take the route from Bratunac,

8 please, firstly of the mechanised unit, and then secondly of the infantry

9 unit, and perhaps you could be -- mark those in two different colours. So

10 firstly could you mark on the map the route that was taken by the

11 mechanised unit?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can even zoom in. It would allow him to

13 do that better.

14 MR. HAYNES: By all means, let's have a look. Can we zoom in one

15 more time and see whether we can keep all of the relevant portions on the

16 map? Now, can we go up a little bit? Yes. That might just do. Thank

17 you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Armoured mechanised company,

19 Bratunac, Bjelovac, Sase, Pribicevac.

20 Q. And before you move on to the infantry brigade, did the armoured

21 mechanised units reach Pribicevac on the first day of march or did it take

22 more than one day to get there?

23 A. It arrived the same day, in the afternoon.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Now, perhaps in blue you could mark the

25 movement of the infantry unit.

Page 12677

1 A. [Marks] We need to move the map to the right so that I can find

2 Skelani. Skelani is not visible in this section.

3 Q. Well, what we are going to have to do then is you're going to have

4 to erase all the marks you've made and then we are going to have to move

5 the map because we can't move it once you've marked it.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: What I suggest something. We can ignore this map

7 completely, bring up again -- forget about this. Bring up the same map

8 once more, with -- bring up the same mark, same zoom, zooming level, but

9 move it a little bit to the right. And then he can repeat the markings.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can zoom out and I will mark.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You have to go up a little bit.

12 MR. HAYNES: Just a little up. Perfect.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I draw that?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, please, thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic.

15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

16 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.

17 Q. That's very well drawn if I may say so. Would you put next to the

18 red line, AU or AMU, armoured mechanised unit?

19 A. [Marks] I need red.

20 Q. And next to the blue line, can you put IU for infantry unit?

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. And would you at the finishing positions of those marches just

23 perhaps put an X or a dot? One in red, one in blue, preferably?

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you. And those Xs represent the positions that each of

Page 12678

1 those units had reached by, as it were, the end of the march on the 4th of

2 July; is that right?

3 A. This red line depicts the movement of the armoured mechanised

4 company on the same day and the blue line shows the total route covered by

5 the infantry component that started on the 4th and arrived at the

6 destination on the 5th. It spent the night in the area of Jezero, that I

7 can mark.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 A. But I don't quite see --

10 Q. Well, if it's not on the map, mark the position to the best of

11 your recollection where it would be on the map, please.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Have you marked it, Mr. Dragutinovic?

14 A. Yes. I did.

15 Q. Oh, it's in the bottom right-hand corner, yes, thank you. And

16 would you just put next to that X, 4/7 to indicate the 4th of July, the

17 point at which the infantry unit stopped its march for the night?

18 A. [Marks] Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, which of those units were you with?

20 A. The armoured mechanised company.

21 Q. And which of those units was the commander with, Mr. Pandurevic?

22 A. Commander Pandurevic was with the other element, the infantry

23 element that was moving along the Bratunac-Skelani-Zeleni Jadar route.

24 Q. During the days between the 4th and the 10th of July, did the

25 armoured mechanised unit move from the position where you've marked the X?

Page 12679

1 A. Yes. Depending on the combat activities.

2 Q. Was that a forward movement or movement to support combat

3 activities and returning to Pribicevac which was a forward command post,

4 as I understand it?

5 A. Yes. Movement forwards, in order to provide support to the units

6 that were engaged in combat at that time.

7 Q. And what direction did the infantry unit move after the 4th of

8 July?

9 A. After the 4th of July, it moved towards the lake, Zeleni Jadar,

10 and there it stayed until the 6th, the morning of the 6th.

11 Q. And after the morning of the 6th, was it involved in combat

12 activities with the forces of the 28th Division in the region of

13 Zeleni Jadar?

14 A. Yes. As early as on the 6th of July, in the morning, combat

15 started, units joined the fight, and it lasted until the early evening.

16 Q. Can you describe for us, please, the strength of the resistance of

17 the forces of the 28th Division throughout the 6th, 7th and 8th of July?

18 A. After the units joined the fight in the morning of the 6th, and

19 after being engaged in combat until the evening, our forces did not carry

20 out their task. They were unable to push back the units of the

21 28th Division along this axis that was assigned to us, so we ceased our

22 attacks sometime in the evening.

23 Q. And where did the infantry unit and in particular

24 Commander Pandurevic spend the night of the 6th of July?

25 A. In the sector of our command post, which was located at the Javor

Page 12680

1 elevation. I can't find it probably because this is a smaller scale map

2 but it should be somewhere here, between those two crosses that I marked

3 here, that was on the 6th. This is where we established our command.

4 Q. Now, were there combat activities on the 7th and could you briefly

5 describe them to us?

6 A. After the failure to carry out the task on the 6th, the commander

7 brought together the commands of the combat groups 1 and 2 and decided to

8 group them and to take another axis, Javor-Biljeg. And the start of the

9 attack was scheduled for the morning of the 7th. But it was foggy. The

10 weather was bad. It was raining. So we stopped our attack along this

11 axis that I just mentioned.

12 Q. And again, on the 7th of July, where did Commander Pandurevic

13 spend the night?

14 A. In the sector where the Javor elevation was, in the immediate

15 vicinity of the units that were getting ready for the combat action. That

16 would be Combat Group 1.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Tactical Group 1.


20 Q. Could we briefly move to the 8th of July and could you describe

21 for us then the combat activities of Tactical Group 1?

22 A. When the fog dispersed and when the weather improved, that was in

23 the afternoon, the units headed along the axis that was assigned to them,

24 and after about an hour or two of fighting, they were able to capture the

25 Biljeg feature and then they continued their attack and captured the

Page 12681

1 heights that we called Tri Sise. That's what we called them. They did

2 not have a name. So this was our immediate task, to do so. And after

3 capturing those features, our next task was to reach the

4 Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica road, and our units were to prepare for the next

5 day there.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Is this map sufficiently detailed for you to

7 indicate where the three hills were that you captured on the 8th of July?

8 A. I think the scale is too small. We should zoom in and then I

9 would be able to see but I can see now that it's impossible to see the

10 features that I need.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We can mark this one and save it, Mr. Haynes, and

12 then zoom in on the area where you wish to direct the witness to. And he

13 can mark that area.

14 MR. HAYNES: Before he does, I wonder if he could just indicate

15 the positions for the 6th of July and the 7th of July where, to his

16 knowledge, Commander Pandurevic spent the night.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. By all means.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I mark?


20 Q. Yes, please, Mr. Dragutinovic.

21 A. I will mark it on this map here.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make things clear. What are you going to

23 mark? I want to make sure that you have understood Mr. Haynes.


25 Q. Would you mark firstly a position between the two Xs with 6/7 to

Page 12682

1 indicate the position where Commander Pandurevic spent the night of the

2 6th of July?

3 A. I've already told you that this map is too small, the scale is too

4 small.

5 Q. Well, you appear to have marked it. And then if it's a position

6 very different, 7/7, the position where approximately he spent the night

7 of the 7th of July.

8 A. Well, it was in the same place, so the 6th to the 7th and the 7th

9 to the 8th, those two nights he spent at the same place.

10 Q. Thank you. That's very helpful. Well, in that case, can you just

11 sign this map in the bottom left-hand corner and date it the 15th of June

12 2007 and then we can call it up again and expand it a bit further?

13 A. [Marks] 15th.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We can save that, and I suggest we bring up

15 the same map again and we zoom, as much as we can, the area south of

16 Srebrenica. I think it can go one further. Yeah. Stop there. Does it

17 help you, Mr. Haynes or not?

18 MR. HAYNES: Well, I'm really interested is whether the witness

19 can identify on there where the three hills are and perhaps he could put

20 3T by the position.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Why 3T and not 3H?

22 MR. HAYNES: Because of the description he gave of them yesterday.

23 But 3H in the interests of political correctness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Dragutinovic, have we zoomed too much or is it

Page 12683

1 okay for you? Yeah, okay. He's identified them.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Perfect. Thank you.


5 Q. Thank you. And --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: While we are here, perhaps he could indicate again

7 on this map if it is possible, the locations where your client supposedly

8 slept on the 6th and on the 7th. It would be more precise than we had it

9 on the previous map.

10 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President, that's very helpful.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. What mark should I put?

12 Or should I just put in the date?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the date 6/7 and 7/7.

14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


17 Q. Now, can we move to the 9th of July and can you describe to us,

18 please, the combat activities of the unit on the 9th of July?

19 A. Well, since the units were able to reach the

20 Srebrenica-Zeleni Jadar road, to the north of those three nameless hills

21 and Biljeg, they continued with their actions in the area of the

22 Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica road, heading towards the village of Rajne and

23 they launched an attack on the axis, Tri Sise hills-Zivkovo Brdo -- hill.

24 Q. And on the 9th of July was there still strong resistance from the

25 forces of the 28th Division?

Page 12684

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And where on the 8th of July, again if it can be marked on the

3 map, did the units and Commander Pandurevic spent the night?

4 A. I can mark it here. Well, the 9th, the 8th, the 9th -- between

5 the 9th and the 10th?

6 Q. Well, if you can do between the 8th and the 9th and the 9th and

7 the 10th, that would be very helpful.

8 A. [Marks] The night between the 8th and the 9th, in the same sector

9 where he had spent nights before. That was in the Javor sector. And then

10 we moved to the other side and we spent the night between the 9th and the

11 10th on the slopes to the north of the Three Teats and Biljeg hills.

12 Q. I don't want to be difficult but so that your markings are

13 consistent would you just change those two so they read 8/7 and 9/7 so

14 that we have the date of the night? Can't he rub it out?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course he can.


17 Q. Can you just rub out -- thank you.

18 A. [Marks] This should be erased too. This should be erased. Now

19 you erased everything. Can I have the pen, please? [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic. Now can we move on, please to the

21 combat activities of the 10th of July? Can you describe those to us

22 briefly?

23 A. On the 9th, the units had already reached the Zivkovo Brdo-Rajne

24 village line, and they stayed there at the positions that they had taken,

25 but Combat Group 1, that consisted of a detachment, went back from

Page 12685

1 Zivkovo Brdo to Zeleni Jadar to get some rest and Zivkovo Brdo was manned

2 by a part of the Skelani Battalion. They manned the positions there. It

3 was not a part of our tactical group. Combat Group 2, which was part of

4 our unit, remained in the village of Rajne and to the right, in the area

5 of the Cicevac stream.

6 Q. And on the 10th?

7 A. In the early morning hours of the 10th, the forces of the

8 28th Division launched an attack against the Combat Group 2 in the Rajne

9 village sector, pushing it back towards the Three Teats and Biljeg hills

10 and at the same time, in engaging elements of the Skelani Battalion, they

11 pushed back the elements of that battalion and managed to capture the

12 Zivkovo Brdo feature.

13 Q. And what happened after that?

14 A. In the afternoon, once we were able to reorganise our units, we

15 launched a counterattack by introducing Combat Group 1, the

16 Podrinje Detachment, along the Zeleni Jadar-Zivkovo Brdo axis, the

17 Podrinje Detachment was able to capture Zivkovo Brdo again, and moved

18 forwards to the village of Pusmulic and Rajne. While Combat Group 2,

19 again in the area of the Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica road, was able to

20 recapture the positions that had been lost and was able to reach the Bojna

21 village, the line there. This village is not marked here but it is closer

22 to Srebrenica, maybe a kilometre or two closer to Srebrenica than Rajne.

23 Q. I think if we look at the road leading out of Srebrenica to the

24 south towards Rajne and Pusmulici, we can see written alongside it the

25 word Bojna, can't we?

Page 12686

1 A. I can see Rajne here and Bojna is a little bit lower, but it's

2 here where there are those hair-pin bends, and a part of this village is

3 quite high, closer to Rajne. So if I were to mark it on the map, you

4 would be able to see where -- how far we actually got.

5 Q. Yes, please, if you would do that and then you could mark that

6 10/7.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Thank you. Now, by that stage in the combat activities was there

9 any substantial or indeed any resistance from the 28th Division forces any

10 more?

11 A. Well, the forces of the 28th Division did put up a very strong

12 resistance in this fighting, and you can see from what I just told you

13 that we suffered some casualties, but later on, when we were able to

14 consolidate our ranks, and when we continued fighting, we were able to

15 push them back towards Srebrenica again.

16 Q. And did you spend the night in the position near Bojna? Or,

17 rather, did the unit and Commander Pandurevic --

18 A. We spent the night -- we spent a night in the village of Bojna, in

19 the location that I marked, and the units were to the left and to the

20 right of the Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica road.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, on the 10th of July, you described to us the

22 other day a briefing at Bojna which was conducted by General Krstic. Do

23 you recall that?

24 A. Yes. I do. Mr. Krstic, General Krstic, arrived to the positions

25 that we were able to reach, and together with the commanders of

Page 12687

1 Tactical Groups 1 and 2, Tactical Group 2 cooperated with us in this

2 action, he held a briefing in order to hear reports about the tasks that

3 were supposed to have been carried out that day, to hear to what extent

4 they had been carried out and to discuss further tasks.

5 Q. And at that briefing, did he order the deployment of an additional

6 particular unit called the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

7 A. I think that the 10th Detachment was envisaged to take part in

8 combat the next day.

9 Q. Thank you. I want to just go back a little bit and ask you a

10 couple of general questions about combat with the forces of the

11 28th Division. In the positions around the three hills and Biljeg, were

12 there also -- were there also DutchBat OP positions?

13 A. On Biljeg Hill, which is not here on this map, the Dutch Battalion

14 did have its positions. It had its positions that were set up as quarters

15 and for combat and for observation.

16 Q. And how close to the Dutch forces did the forces of the

17 28th Division make their positions?

18 A. They were so close that we had the impression that they were

19 actually engaging us from the positions of the Dutch Battalion.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Did you fire on any Dutch positions in the

21 course of the combat activities of Krivaja 95?

22 A. Fire was never opened at the Dutch Battalion, but in light of the

23 fact that the units of the 28th Division were positioned so close to the

24 Dutch Battalion, they may have gotten the impression that fire was opened

25 at them but no shell, no round, caused any damage to the structures of the

Page 12688

1 Dutch Battalion.

2 Q. Did you encounter any Dutch soldiers during the course of combat

3 activities you were involved in?

4 A. After taking the positions of the 28th Division in the sector of

5 Biljeg and Three Teats, the soldiers who were the first to reach the

6 defence lines of the 28th Division established a contact with the soldiers

7 of the Dutch Battalion. We had a soldier who was able to talk to the

8 Dutch in German.

9 Q. And what were your orders? What were your actions towards these

10 Dutch soldiers that you came into contact with?

11 A. Well, all the contacts were very correct, and a proposal was made

12 to them to withdraw with their unit along the Zeleni Jadar-Pribicevac

13 axis, and we told them that we would make it possible for them to go back

14 via Pribicevac and Sase to their base in Potocari.

15 Q. Thank you. One other thing: What orders did you receive in

16 relation to destroying any property or setting fire to things and the

17 like?

18 A. We were given strict orders that no buildings were to be destroyed

19 or set on fire, no physical damage was to be caused to any buildings in

20 the Srebrenica area.

21 Q. And who were those orders from?

22 A. From General Krstic and then Commander Pandurevic relayed them to

23 our unit.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Can we now come to the 11th of July and can

25 you describe what happened then?

Page 12689

1 A. On the 11th, pursuant to orders from the previous day, tasks were

2 given to move towards the town of Srebrenica itself. And General Krstic

3 himself was present.

4 Q. Did you enter the town?

5 A. Tactical Group 1, including the Zvornik Brigade component, was on

6 the Bojna-Srebrenica route, and after the first fighting started, I stayed

7 in the area of Bojna due to NATO air strikes, and after minor injury and

8 shell shock, I was sent back to Zeleni Jadar.

9 Q. Are you aware how the forces of Tactical Group 1 were deployed on

10 the 11th of July?

11 A. I didn't understand the question. You mean during the attack or

12 after we entered Srebrenica?

13 Q. I'm really interested in after you entered Srebrenica.

14 A. After accomplishing its mission, and entering Srebrenica, the

15 command of the Tactical Group 1 was based in the police station, whereas

16 the other units were quartered in Gostilj village and surrounding hills in

17 order to secure the units that remained in the town itself.

18 Q. It's correct, isn't it, that no personnel from Tactical Group 1

19 went towards Potocari on the 11th of July or any date thereafter?

20 A. Our outmost point towards Bratunac and Potocari was the Gostilj

21 neighbourhood. It is on the outskirts of Srebrenica looking towards

22 Bratunac, near the football pitch.

23 Q. And where did Commander Pandurevic spend the night of the 11th of

24 July?

25 A. To the best of my knowledge, Commander Pandurevic spent the night

Page 12690

1 at the police station.

2 Q. Just one last thing about the operation Krivaja 95. Was any fire

3 from artillery that you were responsible for directed at the town of

4 Srebrenica itself?

5 A. The town itself was not shelled by artillery, and you can see --

6 you could see when entering the town that there was no damage on any

7 buildings from artillery shell.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Would you now just initial the map that's in

9 front of you and put the date on it? You got the date wrong the last

10 time. It's the 15th of June today, which is 15/06. But we won't worry

11 about that.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Can the witness -- yes, he's doing it.

14 A. [Marks]

15 MR. HAYNES: Now, can that be saved and preserved, but then can we

16 call up the same exhibit for a third time? No. Can we call up 7D624 this

17 time, please? I think that's ideal. We can just see Zepa at the bottom

18 of the screen, yes.

19 Q. Now, what I want you to do with this map, Mr. Dragutinovic, if you

20 can be provided with a pen, is to show the movement of the unit on the

21 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th of July, in the same way. So perhaps you can

22 start by showing the movement of the unit from Srebrenica to the position

23 where it spent the night of the 12th of July.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you. And would you put 12/7 by Viogor? Thank you. That's

Page 12691

1 excellent.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. We have the 12th and the 14th. Can you mark, please, the 13th for

4 us as well?

5 A. We spent the 13th travelling non-stop, no stops for overnight

6 rest. That was the night of the 13th. We didn't stop. This is where we

7 spent the night on the 12th and on the 13th we started in the direction I

8 marked and we arrived at 0200 hours on the 13th of July. Maybe I can

9 write 13th in the area of Viogor.

10 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, if you would do that.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Now --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Haynes, sorry to interrupt you but

14 we need to have the break now. We will reconvene in 25 minutes. We save

15 this for the time being. Could you sign it, please, Mr. Dragutinovic, and

16 put the date, today's date, 15th? In the meantime, please, can you have

17 consultations amongst yourselves and also with the Prosecution to give us

18 an indication where we stand? We'll reconvene in 25 minutes' time. Thank

19 you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

21 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes? Before -- have you discussed

24 amongst yourselves --

25 MR. HAYNES: We have. It might be best, I think, if the witness

Page 12692

1 just slipped off his headphones for this.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Dragutinovic, do you understand

3 English?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you don't. So can I ask you to remove your

6 headphones for a short while, please? Yes, Mr. Haynes?

7 MR. HAYNES: We have discussed matters. I'll say at the outset I

8 can't give the Trial Chamber too much comfort. We are all going to use

9 our best endeavours to be as economic in our cross-examinations and

10 re-examinations as we can, but it appeared to us that in any event, even

11 if I sat down now, there is enough cross-examination and re-examination of

12 this witness to take him into next week because there are substantial

13 cross-examinations by at least two or three of the other teams and a

14 substantial redirect. I'm going to do my best to get through the material

15 I've got to deal with but there are others who have placed many, many

16 documents into e-court to use with this witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Who are the others?

18 MR. HAYNES: I think Madam Fauveau will cross-examine him for a

19 considerable length of time. He is, of course, an officer within the

20 Zvornik Brigade so he's of interest to the Nikolic team. The Beara team

21 have asked for 45 minutes. And others have questions for him. I don't

22 want to get into an argument about this. The witness, for my purposes, is

23 absolutely unique and out of 187 witnesses he's the only one who was with

24 my client from the 4th to the 15th of July, and I hope the Court would be

25 the first to acknowledge that I'm not somebody who has abused the

Page 12693

1 privilege of cross-examination in this Court. I didn't cross-examine any

2 intercept operators, barely a survivor, and hardly any of the DutchBat

3 officers but this witness is absolutely central to my client's case.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Our intervention was not

5 meant to engage into any argument with any of you.

6 MR. HAYNES: I'm sorry, I didn't really mean to but I thought for

7 the saving of time now, I thought I would state in bullet points my

8 position.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Madam Fauveau, how long do you

10 expect your cross-examination to last?

11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I need an hour and 45

12 minutes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Meek? You require 45 minutes as well?

14 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, we had indicated that. At this point I

15 may not have any questions depending on what the rest of the testimony is.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And -- thank you, Mr. Meek. And what

17 sort of redirect time constraints are we talking about?

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. It is at this point, I

19 don't see it being any more than about a half an hour, so it's not quite

20 that substantial. But that, of course, depends upon the nature of the

21 upcoming cross-examinations.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes -- you want to cross-examine him,

23 Ms. Nikolic?

24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We had announced

25 one hour, but I think it's possible to reduce that to 45 minutes depending

Page 12694

1 on the course of further cross-examination by Mr. Haynes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Haynes, how much more time do

3 you think you require?

4 MR. HAYNES: It should go a little more quickly now. Once I've

5 asked the witness to mark a couple more things on this map, we are done

6 with maps which are a lengthy and difficult process. There are a few

7 documents I want to show him but I do have to take him through the

8 remainder of the month of July up to the 23rd, and then I have to deal

9 with the -- a portion of August and September. So I will do well to

10 finish by the end of this session, I'd have thought.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. While incidentally the witness is not

12 following the proceedings, in relation to the joinder motion in the

13 Popovic case, joinder motion in the Tolimir case will be dealt with

14 separately by Judge Prost. As far as the request for suspension of time

15 limits for filing of response is concerned, for the time being, until

16 further -- until you hear further from us, all time limits for filing of

17 responses are suspended. Later on, we will have further communications

18 for you.

19 Let me now have some consultations with my colleagues, please.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes, I do not mean to say to you to reduce

22 the time for cross-examination right now but I had the impression that

23 much of what you adduced from the -- during the course of

24 cross-examination could have been stipulated by the Prosecution. So I

25 would appreciate if you would pursue that path in the future.

Page 12695

1 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. That's very helpful. It's certainly not

2 something we are blind to, and Mr. McCloskey and I have good relations and

3 are in good contact.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you may now proceed, Mr. Haynes.


6 Q. Thank you. We are going to have to go back to this map just

7 briefly, Mr. Dragutinovic. Can it be blown up to the same proportion that

8 is it was previously and can we see the same area?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, the witness is not receiving interpretation.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We can put the question straight to Mr. Haynes. Do

12 you wish to have brought up again the one that he has marked?

13 MR. HAYNES: Yes, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Which he can put further marks upon?

15 MR. HAYNES: If that is possible I would be very grateful.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it would be better for everyone.

17 Mr. Dragutinovic, is the interpretation now reaching you?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


21 Q. Now, I would just like you, if you can be provided with another

22 pen, it can be in the same colour or a different one, it doesn't matter,

23 just to mark a few more points for me. You told Mr. Vanderpuye about a

24 stop during the night of the 13th and 14th when you were on the move, for

25 fuel in Vlasenica. So would you put a circle around Vlasenica and write

Page 12696

1 the word "fuel" above it or F?

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And would you also put a circle around Krivace and write above

4 that IKM?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And if you can see it, would you put a circle around Brloznik?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And would you indicate -- that was the furthest forward position

9 that the forces made towards Zepa. You can simply say that if you agree

10 with it.

11 A. No. That is not the furthest forward position. The units had

12 reached the line between Brloznik village and Purtic village.

13 Q. In that case, erase that circle and put a mark where that position

14 was and perhaps write above that, TG.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Now I think we are now finished with that, so it can be saved and

17 preserved because it already has your signature and the date upon it.

18 Now, I want to ask you about the 13th of July. By the 13th of

19 July, would you agree that the forces were tired, hungry and dirty?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that many of the men who had been part of this operation by

22 then for nine days wanted to go home?

23 A. You could say that only about Combat Group 2.

24 Q. Was it the view of the commander, Pandurevic, that a replacement

25 force ought to be used to carry out the operation towards Zepa?

Page 12697

1 A. Well, I can't really remember, but I know that we were working to

2 prepare this Combat Group 2 for the reasons I've already described so that

3 it can continue combat activities, and there was no indication they would

4 go back, although some individual requests and demands were made to that

5 effect.

6 Q. You told us the other day that General Krstic mentioned to you on

7 the 12th of July the possibility that General Mladic would address the

8 troops on the following day, the 13th. Did you understand that the

9 purpose of General Mladic addressing the troops was to boost their morale?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And in any event, General Krstic was aware of the possibility that

12 General Mladic would address the troops on the 12th, that's correct, isn't

13 it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you understand that the possibility of General Mladic

16 addressing the troops was something that had been discussed at the meeting

17 in Bratunac the previous evening, the 11th?

18 A. I didn't know what had transpired before, but I could draw

19 inferences from what happened on the 13th.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, you've described in some detail the protests of

21 Colonel Pandurevic to the orders of General Mladic on the 13th of July.

22 Did his plea not also include a plea on behalf of his tired troops?

23 A. To some extent, yes. But the way I understood it, the commander

24 had a better idea of what the situation was really like than many others

25 did.

Page 12698

1 Q. Well, you've described to us in some detail the response of

2 General Mladic to Colonel Pandurevic's protests. I mean, I assume it's

3 fair to say that sitting here today, you don't remember the precise

4 details of that exchange; is that right?

5 A. I don't recall all the details, but I remember the gist of it.

6 Q. And the gist of it was this, wasn't it, that General Mladic was

7 saying to Colonel Pandurevic, "Obey your orders to advance on Zepa and

8 mind your own business in relation to the 28th Division"?

9 A. He said that Commander Pandurevic, in fact he said to

10 Commander Pandurevic, "Did you get your assignments?"

11 Commander Pandurevic answered yes. And then he said, "Leave the problem

12 of the 28th Division to others. The 28th Division will not cross the

13 Konjevic Polje-Kasaba-Milici road. Other forces will take care of that

14 and prevent them."

15 Q. So in effect he was saying, on the 13th of July, that the defeat

16 or capture of the 28th Division was no responsibility of the command of

17 the Zvornik Brigade, was it?

18 A. He didn't mention the Zvornik Brigade, only the units that were

19 engaged in their missions and were to move towards Zepa. As for the

20 28th Division, other forces were supposed to take care of that but I

21 couldn't know which other forces.

22 Q. Thank you. I want to move on to another topic now. Did you know

23 a man in the Zvornik Brigade called Dragan Stevic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And would you agree that throughout this period certainly, he was

Page 12699

1 Vinko Pandurevic's driver?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that throughout the period you have

4 described and marked on this map, you were travelling in the same vehicle

5 as Vinko Pandurevic?

6 A. Yes. For the most part. I wasn't with him always but I mostly

7 was with him. There were certain errands I had to take care of.

8 Q. But certainly you were with him on the journey that went through

9 the night of the 13th to 14th of July when you stopped for fuel at

10 Vlasenica?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, the stop for fuel in Vlasenica involved a long convoy of

13 vehicles, didn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you may not recall this but we'll have a look at a couple of

16 documents, but it was a refueling stop that began before midnight on the

17 13th of July and finished in the small hours of the morning on the 14th.

18 That's right, isn't it?

19 A. Yes. Replenishment took a long time because it was a small local

20 petrol station where we refueled the whole base of the VRS.

21 Q. Thank you for that but in any event, I just want you to have a

22 quick look to remind yourself at P177. Can that be placed into e-court,

23 please?

24 And can we see that that is a fueling document that's initially

25 dated the 13th of July at the top?

Page 12700

1 A. Yes. 13th July 1995. You see it in the left top corner.

2 Q. But in relation to the fueling of the vehicles, as each entry is

3 signed by the driver on the right, it's become the 14th. So the document

4 began to be filled in on the 13th but then proceeded by people dating it

5 the 14th as they filled their vehicles. That's right? And I want you to

6 have a look just quickly at vehicle number 13.

7 A. Yes, and you see the signature of Stevic, Dragan.

8 Q. Thank you very much indeed. 48 litres of fuel, and if we just

9 look --

10 A. Yes. It started on the 13th and it ended after midnight. So he

11 wrote the actual date when he tanked up.

12 Q. Thank you. And after you'd fueled up, you and Vinko Pandurevic

13 and Dragan Stevic got back in that car and drove on towards Pozeplje?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And where precisely did you spend the night that night?

16 A. We were in Rijeka village, between Pozeplje and Han Pijesak.

17 Q. In what sort of building?

18 A. There were no buildings, just an abandoned house. Everybody spent

19 the night the best way they could. Some under tent. Some in their

20 vehicles. I think most people slept in their cars. Many more than in the

21 house.

22 Q. And you and the commander? Were you together in the same

23 building?

24 A. Yes, yes. In the house, in the car, or around the car. I had one

25 tent that I stretched between the car and a nearby tree, just in case it

Page 12701

1 rained.

2 Q. I just want to be absolutely clear about this. On the nights of

3 the 12th, 13th and 14th of July, you can confirm that Vinko Pandurevic was

4 with you and the unit on the route that you drew on that map?

5 A. Absolutely, and certainly.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Now, throughout the period of the 4th to the

7 15th of July, consistent with the procedure you described yesterday,

8 Dragan Obrenovic was in command of the Zvornik Brigade, that's correct,

9 isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And in the absence of the commander, he would command, subject to

12 the orders of higher command; that's also correct, isn't it?

13 A. Yes. And he's answerable to the superior command.

14 Q. And I would just like to show you a couple of documents so that we

15 can see that process in action in the relevant period, and can we have

16 placed into e-court now, please, P438? Take a little time to read this,

17 but this, I think you'll agree, is an order from Drina Corps command on

18 the 11th of July to strengthen combat readiness of the units and an order

19 that all forward command posts had to be upgraded on all levels? The

20 document may need to go down a little bit so that the witness can read it

21 and confirm that. It's really the second half of the document.

22 A. Basically I'm familiar with it. Without even reading it, I can

23 see what it's about.

24 Q. And just a second document, P157. You perhaps should clear this

25 up. You do confirm that without even reading it, my summary of the

Page 12702

1 document was accurate, the first document you saw?

2 A. Yes. You said what is written, so I didn't need to read it, but

3 this thing I do have to read.

4 Yes. I read it. This has to do with the task for the

5 Zvornik Brigade.

6 Q. And the date of the order?

7 A. Well, it's difficult to read the date here. I think it's the 12th

8 of July.

9 Q. Thank you. So these were orders, both of them addressed to

10 Zvornik Brigade command in the absence of the commander, Vinko Pandurevic?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Now, during the time you were away in Srebrenica and Zepa, the

13 commander, Vinko Pandurevic, never gave any order to the Zvornik Brigade,

14 did he?

15 A. It is true because the commander, according to the order, was the

16 commander of the tactical group and he was duty-bound to command this unit

17 and only that unit.

18 Q. And more to the point, he wasn't notified of any orders that had

19 been given to the Zvornik Brigade by higher command, was he?

20 A. No, no. We had certain tasks and there was no need for us to be

21 even informed about this.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye?

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I object to the question, and frankly to the

24 answer as well, because the basis of knowledge hasn't been established

25 with respect to what information this witness would have had of his

Page 12703

1 commander's orders.

2 MR. HAYNES: Oh, I think it has. I think Mr. Vanderpuye

3 established in his examination-in-chief that this man was with, spoke to

4 and asked about everything that was going through Vinko Pandurevic's

5 mind,, and I will deal with it in that way if Mr. Vanderpuye insists but

6 I'll move on. The question has been answered.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We agree with your submission, Mr. Haynes. Go

9 ahead. Thank you.


11 Q. Now, during the time you were in Srebrenica and Zepa, you didn't

12 have, yourself, any information about the evacuation of prisoners, the

13 transportation of prisoners, or the execution of prisoners, did you?

14 A. No. Yes, what you said is correct. I didn't know anything. I

15 didn't hear about any such things.

16 Q. And just to make sure the foundation is good, you travelled with

17 Vinko Pandurevic in his car, that's correct, isn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You slept with him at night, didn't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You regularly conversed with him about the combat situation and

22 the general situation in the Srebrenica and surrounding areas?

23 A. Yes. And received orders.

24 Q. And to your knowledge, Vinko Pandurevic had no knowledge of the

25 evacuation, transportation or execution of prisoners during the period

Page 12704

1 that you were involved in combat operations with him?

2 A. No. I never had any feeling that the commander knew anything

3 about that.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, in terms of the involvement of Zvornik Brigade

5 personnel in Operation Krivaja 95, it's correct, isn't it, that a number

6 of soldiers were decorated for their bravery in Operation Krivaja 95?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I'd like you to quickly look at 7D440, please. And it's page

9 2, entries 18 to 21. This is the list of people decorated and there

10 appear to have been four from the Zvornik Brigade who were decorated; do

11 you agree with that?

12 A. I know the man listed under number 18. I know the man listed

13 under number 20 personally. I also know the man under number 22. And I

14 could perhaps find other people that I know, if I were to look, to go

15 through this list in detail.

16 Q. It might help you if the list was just moved to the right a bit so

17 you could see the units that these people were part of. It needs to go a

18 bit further than that. And we --

19 A. Yes, yes. From 18 and then onwards, these are all members of the

20 Zvornik Infantry Brigade but if you're asking me if I knew some of these

21 people personally, then, yes, I did but according to this list they belong

22 to the Zvornik Brigade.

23 Q. Thank you. And I wonder if lastly you could just look at the very

24 last page of this document so that that we could see the number of people

25 who were decorated in total. And you can confirm that the number is 60 of

Page 12705

1 which apparently 4 were from the Zvornik Brigade?

2 A. Yes. 60, as listed here.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to move on to your return to Zvornik

4 from Zepa. And just to clear up one thing. After your unit returned from

5 Zepa on the 15th of July, it's correct, isn't it, that no unit or

6 personnel of the Zvornik Brigade returned to the operation towards Zepa

7 before the 31st of July?

8 A. No. The plan was for a part of the Podrinje Detachment to do so

9 on the 23rd but then an order was received later on that they were to go

10 on.

11 Q. But so that we are clear, that they didn't in fact go until the

12 31st of July?

13 A. In fact, they went on the 31st, and on the 1st they were there,

14 and perhaps for one more day, and not before that.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, you're familiar, I imagine, with the brigade

16 forward command post at Delici.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you're familiar, I imagine, with the fact that from the

19 forward command post, there is a very good view of the positions of the

20 4th, 6th and 7th Battalions and an effective position to command each of

21 those units.

22 A. Yes. And that's why it was chosen, because it was possible to

23 monitor the other battalions from there, the 3rd, the 2nd, the 5th and the

24 1st to a smaller degree, but all the battalions could be observed from

25 there. There was a line of sight to all of them.

Page 12706

1 Q. And also, there was a very good line of sight to the villages of

2 Nezuk, Drugi Dijo [phoen] and the positions of the 2nd Corps of the army

3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. Yes. There was a line of sight to the village of Nezuk. It was

5 just opposite the forward command post, in a northerly direction.

6 Q. Now, although you weren't back in Zvornik until the 15th of July,

7 you have seen, as operations officer, all of the regular and irregular

8 combat reports of July of 1995, that's correct, isn't it?

9 A. After the return, yes.

10 Q. And you are aware from that and from your presence there, from the

11 15th of July onwards, that the Zvornik Brigade, in Baljkovica and

12 Crni Vrh, had strong forces in the 7th and the 4th Battalion; two platoons

13 from the Bircanska Light Infantry Brigade; a platoon of military police; a

14 platoon from the Krajina Corps; a platoon from Vlasenica; a special MUP

15 brigade from Sekovici; Drina Wolves; tank company; and strong artillery

16 support from the Zvornik Brigade?

17 A. Yes. They were all stationed there in the period of the 15th,

18 16th, 17th and 18th. And even before that, some elements had arrived

19 already on the 14th.

20 Q. And those forces, in the positions that they were placed,

21 effectively commanded from the forward command post, would have been quite

22 sufficient to massacre the column of the 28th Division and the civilians

23 coming from the rear, wouldn't they?

24 A. Yes. The commander from his command post was able to exercise

25 command very easily, and this strength of units was quite sufficient to

Page 12707

1 inflict major casualties on the 28th Division, in particular if they had

2 civilians with them.

3 Q. Now, it is correct that the Zvornik Brigade suffered some losses

4 on the 15th and 16th of July?

5 A. Yes. Yes. It did have some losses in those days, and even

6 before, in the period before the Tactical Group 1 had arrived from

7 Srebrenica and Zepa.

8 Q. Would you agree that in the period of the 15th and 16th of July,

9 there were a lot of armed men congregated in a relatively small

10 geographical area?

11 A. The sector of the 4th Battalion in terms of the lay of the land,

12 was in a valley, and all the features that dominated the valley had been

13 taken before or were taken now by the Zvornik Brigade, in particular the

14 7th Battalion Pandurica, the 6th Battalion to the right, Parlog, and then

15 in the depth, from the Zvornik-Caparde road, from the Crni Vrh sector, the

16 units from already advancing towards Cetino Brdo which is a dominant hill.

17 It dominates this entire area.

18 Q. Is it right that some of the losses that were suffered by the

19 brigade in that period could be accounted for by the concentration of

20 armed men in a small area who fell victim to random and even friendly

21 fire?

22 A. This was a really small area, and the possibility for conflicts

23 and even friendly fire, it was quite rife, in fact, in this small area.

24 Q. Now, I assume you have heard of Semso Muminovic?

25 A. Yes, yes, I've heard.

Page 12708

1 Q. And you were aware that your commander was in contact with him

2 from the brigade forward command post during the period, I will suggest,

3 of the 15th and 16th of July?

4 A. Yes. I know, through the commander of the 7th Battalion, because

5 I had direct contacts with him, and the commander of the 7th Battalion was

6 in contact with the commander at the forward command post.

7 Q. Did he let you know the regularity of that contact? Were you

8 aware that there were many, many phone calls between them over a 24-hour

9 period or so?

10 A. From my contacts with the commander of the 7th Battalion, I do

11 know that the contacts were first established on the 15th and that they

12 ended on the 16th, with the final agreement about letting the

13 28th Division and the civilian population that accompanied it through.

14 Q. And did you see the column pass?

15 A. Yes, in part, what could be observed from Pandurica, which was a

16 dominant feature. But I was able to see the size of the column as I

17 passed with the armoured mechanised company going in the direction of

18 Zvornik and Caparde.

19 Q. And could you see that the column contained both armed and unarmed

20 men?

21 A. From the Pandurica position, it was impossible to ascertain

22 whether people were armed or unarmed. One could only see whether they

23 were soldiers or in civilian clothes.

24 Q. And could you see that some of them were soldiers?

25 A. Yes, yes, for sure.

Page 12709

1 Q. Now, you've told us a little bit the other day about a colonel

2 called Trkulja. Were you aware that he visited the command of the Zvornik

3 Brigade as part of a group of officers?

4 A. I know that he was present only on the basis of the conversation

5 or at least that's what the situation was like at the time, with the

6 logistics detachment soldiers who gave me, relayed to me an order, what I

7 should do as a next task, and intimating that there was a high-ranking

8 officer at the command but he didn't know who he was, so I didn't insist

9 on identifying that man, but I was able to see from the documents that I

10 saw later who that officer was, because in the duty operations officer's

11 notebook, and in the duty operations officer logbook, it is stated quite

12 clearly who the officer was and what time he was there.

13 Q. Thank you. Well, I just want to clarify with you what date that

14 was, and to that end I'm going to show you P378, please. And it's page 89

15 for the witness, page 4 for those of us who read English.

16 A. A soldier or, rather, the platoon leader handed to me the order of

17 the commander, and that was in the afternoon of the 17th.

18 Q. Thank you very much. I've just -- I'm just showing you now a page

19 from the duty operations officer's logbook for the 17th of July, and does

20 that show that at 8.45, that morning, a team of officers headed by

21 Colonel Trkulja stayed in the brigade IKM for insight of the new

22 situation, the same returned at 1500 hours?

23 A. Yes. To analyse the situation in those days and in those

24 operations, it says here 8.45. This is indeed an excerpt from the logbook

25 and it bears the signature of an officer but I can't recognise whose

Page 12710

1 signature it is.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Did you understand that the purpose of the

3 arrival of those officers was to investigate why your commander had

4 allowed the column to pass?

5 A. On the basis of what I learned later, the purpose of their arrival

6 was to check why the commander had, on his own initiative, decided to let

7 the column pass through our ranks, through our combat positions.

8 Q. 1995 wasn't the first time that you heard of Semso Muminovic, was

9 it?

10 A. I knew Semso Muminovic from before the war.

11 Q. And it wasn't the only time that he and Vinko Pandurevic resolved

12 a conflict situation by cease-fire and allowing men to go free?

13 A. There were instances before. Mr. Pandurevic and Mr. Muminovic had

14 been in contact before regarding some exchanges and so on. I do remember

15 that; I'm quite sure of that. Even before this event on the 15th, 16th

16 and the 17th.

17 Q. And on a similar but different level, in Ustipraca in 1993,

18 Commander Pandurevic had reached an agreement with the opposing Muslim

19 forces to allow substantial number of their soldiers to walk free to the

20 free territory then, hadn't he?

21 A. Yes. It's true. I was there with the commander and the commander

22 was the commander of the tactical group that included units of the

23 Zvornik Brigade and of the Rogatica brigade and the 2nd Romanija Brigade.

24 Q. Thank you. After the passage of the column, it's right that the

25 Zvornik Brigade was tasked to perform a search of the terrain to determine

Page 12711

1 whether there were armed groups left behind and groups that had

2 infiltrated from the 2nd Corps of the Bosnian army, that's right, isn't

3 it?

4 A. Yes. That's right. Quite a few armed soldiers of the

5 28th Division were left behind and they constantly tried to break through,

6 not only in this segment but in other areas, to get in the rear of our

7 units where conflicts would break out. The command was forced to search

8 the terrain to prevent any attacks by those straggling groups on our units

9 at the defence line.

10 Q. And that search of the terrain in the days following the 17th of

11 July resulted in the capture of a large number of enemy soldiers, didn't

12 it?

13 A. There were prisoners, not a large number, but I do have an

14 approximate figure.

15 Q. Those prisoners were all detained in the military prison at the

16 barracks at Standard in Karakaj, weren't they?

17 A. Yes. On the orders of the commander, all the soldiers of the

18 28th Division who surrendered were handed over to military police squads

19 who took them to the barracks where they were placed in detention until

20 they could be transported to the collection centre for the prisoners at

21 Batkovic.

22 Q. And the prisoners at the barracks were mixed, weren't they, with

23 prisoners of the Zvornik Brigade who were being held there for military

24 offences?

25 A. Well, we really couldn't keep them apart, but there were no major

Page 12712

1 problems as a result of that.

2 Q. And Commander Pandurevic asked superior command to transport these

3 prisoners so that the exchange process could be begun with them?

4 A. Well, I didn't really understand your question, but I do get the

5 gist. The procedure for the capture of the enemy troops by the

6 Zvornik Brigade was well known. The prisoners were to be taken to the

7 barracks, there to be placed in detention, and the next day or the day

8 after that, at the latest, they were to be taken to Batkovic. As for the

9 exchange, the Zvornik Brigade did not have the capability to carry out

10 such exchanges on its own. There was a commission that was in charge of

11 exchanging the enemy soldiers for our soldiers who had been captured by

12 the other side. But I do know about this case that you, I think, are

13 referring to. But if you get more specific, I will be able to tell you

14 what I know.

15 Q. Yes. It would be far easier if I just showed you the document I

16 had in mind. It's P340, please. Can that be placed into e-court?

17 Is that a document in your handwriting?

18 A. Yes. That's my document and my handwriting. In fact, it's the

19 commander's document but written by me.

20 Q. Thank you for the correction. I think we need to go down the

21 document so that you can identify the section of the document that deals

22 with the question of exchange of prisoners.

23 A. If I remember well, it's like this: During these combat

24 operations in the area of Baljkovica, Memici, some of our soldiers went

25 missing, some were captured. From the communications between the enemy

Page 12713

1 and our command, through Muminovic and Pandurevic, there were some

2 indications that they were in favour of direct exchange for some of their

3 soldiers who had been captured and who they knew to be still on our side.

4 As for our soldiers who had been captured and were on the other side,

5 their families found out about it somehow and pressured us a great deal to

6 accept the exchange.

7 However, we had no authorisation to do that. Therefore, we asked

8 the corps command to hand down some instructions or to send a commission

9 for exchange if they thought that was the best thing to do. Otherwise, we

10 needed them to tell us what to do with the prisoners, to wait for the

11 commission or to send them on to Batkovici.

12 Q. Does that explain why at paragraph 3 of this interim combat report

13 the commander is requesting that corps command and -- requests that corps

14 command ask the exchange commission to start work as soon as possible?

15 A. Yes, yes. Precisely. The commander asked for instructions so

16 that we wouldn't have any more problems. And the commission was needed to

17 start working immediately.

18 Q. Now, we've gone a little forward in time. I want now to go back

19 to the 18th of July, if I can. And I'd like for P334 to be placed into

20 e-court.

21 This is another interim combat report of the 18th of July, and do

22 you recall whether or not this is another report that was dictated to you

23 by the commander, Vinko Pandurevic?

24 A. Yes. By that time, I had already returned to the command sometime

25 in the afternoon, and I'm familiar with this document.

Page 12714

1 Q. I'd like it, please, if the document could go to the very bottom

2 to see if you can clear something up for us.

3 A. Which paragraph?

4 Q. It needs to go right to the bottom, to the commander's signature.

5 It will be another page. And if we could zoom in on the signature box?

6 Now --

7 A. Yes. That's the commander's signature.

8 Q. Thank you. Now on the 18th of July, what time was it that you

9 went to have this document dictated to you by the commander?

10 A. In the afternoon, but I couldn't tell you the hour.

11 Q. Well, in the English translation, this document is timed 1317.

12 That's 1.00 in the afternoon. Is that in your view --

13 A. No. It must have been later.

14 Q. I mean, it could be an 8. Is it more likely that this document

15 was timed 1817? In other words, just after quarter past 6.00 in the

16 evening?

17 A. It's certainly not 13. But later.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, is this a document you recall being dictated to

19 you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you recall the mood of the commander at the time he

22 dictated this document to you?

23 A. All these events, in view of the fact that the commander had taken

24 many responsibilities upon himself and made his own decisions, he was

25 rather angry with the superior command, that is, with the Drina Corps

Page 12715

1 command.

2 Q. This document, particularly if we can go back to the first page

3 and look at paragraph 4, does not contain language that -- the like of

4 which we generally find in combat reports from the Zvornik Brigade, does

5 it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And to put it into its context, it was written a day after

8 Colonel Pandurevic had been visited by the three colonels from the

9 Main Staff; you recall that?

10 A. This was on the 18th, from what I know, and they came before.

11 Q. I don't want to be difficult but it's probably my fault. We've

12 flicked about this document. I just wonder whether it could be taken down

13 so that the witness can see the whole document, to understand my next

14 questions. Can we go to paragraph 4? The next page, please. From the

15 top, please. Yes.

16 JUDGE KWON: Further down.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I see this paragraph.


19 Q. Would you agree that the commander took the opportunity in this

20 document to include every piece of information at his disposal about

21 brigade losses from March of 1995 right up to the day of writing that

22 report?

23 A. In this passage that I see on the screen, I don't see that. I see

24 paragraph 4, though.

25 Q. I think it needs to go further up. No, the other way. Maybe back

Page 12716

1 a page.

2 A. I think this document has more than two pages.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. [No interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you. When that document has been taken down a little bit so

6 you can see the three sections of losses that it contains, I'll put the

7 question again. Can it go down a little further?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. And a bit more. Can we see the last section, please?

10 Now, I'll put the question to you again. In this report,

11 Commander Pandurevic took the opportunity, didn't he, to convey to corps

12 command every piece of information he had about brigade losses pretty much

13 in the whole of 1995 but certainly most recently?

14 A. Yes. This is from the 27th March, when Zvornik Brigade was

15 involved in intensive fighting quite apart from Krivaja 95, and sustained

16 considerable losses. The point of all this is to inform the corps command

17 of the problems that the Zvornik Brigade was facing, and all the tasks

18 that we received from the superior command outside the area of defence of

19 the Zvornik Brigade. We were trying to make a point that it was very

20 questionable whether we would be able to accomplish all these tasks.

21 Q. Thank you. And in order to be persuasive when he was dictating

22 these figures to you, he was trying to make the situation look as bad as

23 possible, wasn't he?

24 A. Well, it couldn't have been worse. These figures are something

25 that I'm aware of.

Page 12717

1 Q. And did you, at the time that you were listening to him telling

2 you what to write, understand that he thought he was under some suspicion

3 from superior command because of his actions on the 16th and 17th in

4 letting the column go?

5 A. At any rate, Commander Pandurevic was then under fire from the

6 superior command because he had on his own initiative taken the decision

7 to let the column pass through their positions. I know that for sure.

8 Q. Now, before we leave this document, I just want to deal with a

9 separate point with you, and can we go, please, now, to the first

10 paragraph of the document?

11 There is a description there, isn't there, of the way in which or

12 the determination with which some members of the 28th Division fought even

13 after capture?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. A document written on the 18th of July; did you ever receive on

16 the 18th of July any order from Vinko Pandurevic that captured soldiers

17 were to be shot rather than taken prisoner?

18 A. I arrived at the brigade command sometime in the afternoon on the

19 18th. I know about this document. I also know that the stragglers of the

20 28th Division fought to the last in order to be able to pass through, to

21 break out, and we learned from those we captured that many of them were

22 ready to die and commit suicide before surrendering but I had never heard

23 from the commander that we were not taking any prisoners or that we should

24 kill those who surrender.

25 Q. Leave aside from the commander, did you ever hear of any such

Page 12718

1 order?

2 A. Never. I never heard any such thing. That's what I'm trying to

3 tell you. From the 18th when I returned to the brigade, I never heard the

4 commander say any such thing. I know only about the order to boost

5 security measures to be applied during capturing and search of terrain,

6 but that does not mean killing prisoners.

7 Q. Thank you very much, indeed. And I'm going to ask you a question

8 you volunteered the answer to a little while ago. About how many

9 prisoners were taken, detained and sent for exchange by the

10 Zvornik Brigade in the period after the 17th of July up to the 22nd?

11 A. According to the records that I had at the time, and the records

12 of the duty operations logbook and the combat reports we sent to the

13 corps, and from my personal knowledge, there were around 80 men taken

14 prisoner.

15 Q. Thank you. And in your experience generally in the

16 Zvornik Brigade, were prisoners of war treated fairly, properly and in

17 accordance with the Geneva Conventions?

18 A. Those men that were taken prisoner by the Zvornik Brigade were

19 treated precisely like that. I can give you an example that happened in

20 my presence. Soldiers brought 12 troops of the 28th Division who had been

21 captured, they were all in shiny new uniforms, all young, fit. All of

22 them were offered food and water. Some accepted, some refused. Some

23 accepted a smoke. Our soldiers struck up a conversation with them, and to

24 be frank, it all seemed a bit unreal after what had been going on for the

25 past month.

Page 12719

1 Q. Thank you very much. I'm about to move on to --

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes, before you go on, you dealt with

3 extensively with this exhibit but I had the impression that not much was

4 asked about paragraph 4 to the witness. Mr. Dragutinovic, I wonder if you

5 read paragraph 4 in full. I think it's on the second page. If the

6 e-court shows the page 4 -- page 2, para 4.

7 MR. HAYNES: While we are going there can I make a cross-inquiry.

8 I'm a bit disoriented; when are we due another break?

9 JUDGE KWON: Half past.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: In about 20 minutes' time. Unless you require it

11 earlier.

12 MR. HAYNES: No, no, no, no. I know we rose a little early.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But we also understand the stress of

14 cross-examination. We've all been lawyers before.

15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Any time you need a break, Mr. Haynes, just -- that

17 equally applies to you, Witness. Any time you need a break, please let us

18 know.

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Dragutinovic, I'd like to know in particular what

20 the situation was as you understood it, in particular in relation to those

21 3.000 Muslim prisoners.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first heard of 3.000 captured

23 Muslims from the commander, that is from that document that the commander

24 dictated.

25 JUDGE KWON: What was your understanding at the time what happened

Page 12720

1 to those prisoners? What did you know and did you know why your commander

2 was upset?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand it that way. I

4 didn't think that the commander was upset. I still believe, and I assert,

5 that he was very angry with the superior command because somebody had

6 decided to bring to the Zvornik municipality 3.000, as it says here,

7 captives, and to allow 7.000, which I read as 7.000 soldiers of the

8 28th Division, simply to find themselves behind the lines of the

9 Zvornik Brigade, behind the back of the Zvornik Brigade. He says it is

10 inconceivable in this text.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I'm referring to those 3.000 Muslim prisoners.

12 Did you or did you not know at the time what happened to those 3.000

13 Muslim prisoners?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that those 3.000 prisoners

15 were put up somewhere. At that time, I wasn't aware that they were there

16 until the moment when this was dictated. It says here they were put up in

17 school-houses, and elsewhere on the territory of the Zvornik municipality.

18 And that's what I believed. Because I had no occasion to see for myself

19 what was going on between the 11th and my return to the brigade command.

20 JUDGE KWON: When did you know at the end of the day those

21 prisoners were executed?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had never personally, from

23 documents or from talking to other people, found out where, how and how

24 many soldiers or civilians who had been captured during all these events

25 from Srebrenica to Zvornik were executed. And there are some reasons that

Page 12721

1 could explain that.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I'll stop here. I'll leave it to the

3 parties.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes?

5 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Judge Kwon.

6 Q. I was going to move on now to the period in August and September,

7 when you went on a separate operation with your commander,

8 Vinko Pandurevic. You'll remember, I imagine, that at the beginning of

9 August, Drina Corps command ordered the formation of a light infantry

10 brigade called the Drinski Brigade, to carry out operations in the

11 Krajina, in the area of Drvar?

12 A. Yes. I remember that.

13 Q. Just so that we get the dates correct, I'm going to ask that

14 you're briefly shown 7D612. And is that an order of Drina Corps command

15 dated the 3rd of August of 1995, ordering the formation of a light

16 infantry brigade called the Drinski Brigade to be commanded by

17 Colonel Pandurevic?

18 A. Yes. That's the order we received from the superior command.

19 Q. And I'd like you quickly to look at some other documents now.

20 7D252. Again, briefly look at it, a document dated the 6th of August.

21 It's an order on behalf of the Drinski Brigade, and if we go to the

22 bottom, we can see who gave that order. I think we might need a second

23 page.

24 A. Well, that's already a document that governs the establishment of

25 that brigade, and the commander is designated. Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko

Page 12722

1 Pandurevic is appointed commander. I'm familiar with this document.

2 Q. And this second document I've shown you is a document dated the

3 6th of August showing Vinko Pandurevic already issuing orders as commander

4 of that brigade; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And according to your understanding of the position, from the 6th

7 of August he was commander of the Drinski Brigade and therefore ceased to

8 act as commander of the Zvornik Brigade?

9 A. That's correct. Because by assuming command over that newly

10 formed brigade, the commander no longer commands the Zvornik Brigade.

11 Q. And do you recall that, in fact, you gave the orders to march in

12 relation to that brigade?

13 A. Yes. In that command, I was appointed again operations officer

14 and pursuant to the commander's order, the commander of the brigade, I

15 drafted that order to march, designated the routes and formulated all the

16 other components of such a document.

17 Q. Do you remember, in fact, that the Drinski Brigade marched to

18 Krajina on the 7th of August, the day after this and other orders were

19 given by Vinko Pandurevic?

20 A. Yes, yes. The march started on the 7th.

21 Q. And I'm going to a little more carefully deal with the date of

22 your return. I'd like, please, if you could be shown P378, the bottom of

23 page 121 and the top of page 122.

24 This is going to be a little difficult, Mr. Dragutinovic. You're

25 going to have to read the bottom of one page and then wait for another

Page 12723

1 page to come up. It is the very bottom of the page you're looking at and

2 now can we look at page 122 at the very top? I should say by way of

3 introduction that this is the duty officer's logbook for the 16th of

4 September.

5 A. Well, right below that, right below this first line, it

6 says, "Today at 11.30, that 2nd Drina Brigade," that's what we call

7 it, "returned to Zvornik headed by Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko Pandurevic,

8 from the area of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps." The date is

9 the 16th, 11.30.

10 Q. Thank you very much. This is the duty officer's logbook and as

11 you told us yesterday, this is a document that summarises and puts into

12 some sort of chronology information from the notebook and perhaps other

13 sources; is that right?

14 A. Yes. That's from the notebook of the duty operations officer and

15 then it was copied into the logbook. In fact, this is the logbook.

16 Q. Thank you. And the passage I asked you to read at the bottom of

17 page 121, which appears to have occurred or have been written in any way

18 before the entry about the return of the 2nd Drina Brigade concerns the

19 commander inspecting positions of the 7th Battalion in the village of

20 Memici, do you agree with that?

21 A. In the first part?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the reference to the commander in the first part of the

25 logbook for the 16th of September must therefore refer to

Page 12724

1 Dragan Obrenovic, mustn't it?

2 A. Yes. Dragan Obrenovic was the commander at the time.

3 Q. So that we can draw this together, the 2nd Drina Brigade was in

4 Krajina from the 7th of August until 11.30 in the morning of the 16th of

5 September?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. And at the time of its return, the deputy commander, called

8 commander at the time, of the Zvornik Brigade was inspecting positions of

9 the 7th Battalion in Memici?

10 A. Well, yes. Dragan Obrenovic, as the brigade commander in the

11 absence of Commander Pandurevic, performed all the relevant duties. We

12 came back at that time, when Dragan Obrenovic was already at the other end

13 of the brigade's defence area.

14 Q. And just to give this particular passage of evidence a human

15 element, you came back with Vinko Pandurevic, didn't you?

16 A. Yes. I came back, and upon my return, the commander called up the

17 command to meet at the command post of the Zvornik Brigade at Karakaj

18 where we summed up some reports and we gave some tasks to the members of

19 the command so that some of the units that were part of the Drina Brigade

20 would be able to go back to their original units smoothly, without any

21 problems.

22 Q. But when you got back to Standard, there was no question of

23 Dragan Obrenovic being there and briefing Vinko Pandurevic on the

24 situation within the Zvornik Brigade, was there?

25 A. I don't recall that we actually found him there at the barracks.

Page 12725

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic. And that would be a convenient

2 moment for a break.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Mr. Haynes. We'll have a

4 25-minute break. Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.


9 Q. Now, just before we broke, Mr. Dragutinovic, you were explaining

10 to us both from your own personal recollection and by reference to some of

11 the brigade documents, about your return from the Krajina with

12 Vinko Pandurevic on the 16th of September. I want to try and link that

13 with another important event in this case. And I'd like you to tell us,

14 please, if you recall a man called Radislav Pantic, who was the chief of

15 traffic services within the logistics organ of the Zvornik Brigade. Yes?

16 A. I know who Pantic is and I do know him. He was the chief of the

17 traffic service in the logistics organ of the brigade.

18 Q. And I wonder if we could now put into e-court please P1054.

19 Could the document be brought down a little bit so that we can see

20 the top right-hand corner? No, probably -- I meant brought up, yes. Yes.

21 Now, can you see that on that document, the name Pantic is written

22 in the top right-hand corner?

23 A. Yes, I can see that.

24 Q. And can you see that that document is a document from the

25 Main Staff to the Drina Corps notifying them of an order of the Main Staff

Page 12726

1 for the delivery to the Drina Corps of 5.000 litres of diesel?

2 A. If you could maybe scroll down a little bit?

3 Q. Of course. That will be done for you.

4 A. Yes. Yes, I can see that now.

5 Q. Just one thing about that document: A copy of it appears to have

6 come to the Zvornik Brigade, but for information. What does that mean,

7 when a document is given to the Drina Corps for information?

8 A. I know what it means if Zvornik Brigade received it for

9 information. That means that this fuel belongs to someone and that

10 perhaps it could be stored in a facility somewhere, but that Pantic or the

11 Zvornik Brigade is just provided with this for information. It cannot

12 avail itself of it. It cannot dispose of it.

13 Q. Thank you. And would you just make a mental note of the

14 confidential document number 03/4-2341 of the 14th of September? And then

15 I'm going to ask you to look, please, at P1053. And can you see straight

16 away, if you've remembered it, in the top left-hand -- no, we haven't got

17 the document up yet. Yes, in the top left-hand corner we have the same

18 order number there, 03/4-2341. And again, the document marked Pantic in

19 the top right-hand corner. And this is a telegram dated the 14th of

20 September, again from the -- what's described here as the General Staff to

21 the electronic communications centre -- sorry, addressed to the

22 logistics -- to the 1st Zvornik Brigade for their information.

23 Now, I want now to look, if we can, at P379 which is the duty

24 officer's notebook at page 115, and this is only in your language,

25 Mr. Dragutinovic. There is no English translation so we may have to have

Page 12727

1 your help with it.

2 A. If I am able to read it.

3 Q. Well, I certainly can't so you're better placed than I am.

4 Can the document be brought up so he can see the lower half of the

5 page? And can you see there, there is an asterisk relating to a telegram?

6 A. Yes, I can see that.

7 Q. And again, it contains the same number. Would you mind please

8 just reading out what you can there so that we can have something on the

9 record in English?

10 A. It says, "Telegram, strictly confidential, 03/4-2341, dated the

11 14th of September 1995. And telegram strictly confidential number

12 10/34/2-3-701, dated the 14th of September." It says 9 here but I assume

13 that this refers to the year 1995.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. Let me just try and see what it says further on. I don't really

16 see whether it says, "Handed in to Pantic." It says, "To be handed over

17 to Pantic."

18 Q. Thank you very much. And if we could just go to the top of the

19 page, I think we'll see that this is again the 14th of July. Thank you.

20 There, on the top right-hand -- sorry, 14th of September. Thank you.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, while you were in the Krajina with Vinko Pandurevic, which

23 trip you returned from on the 16th of July, were you ever aware of any --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you ever aware of any arrangement between the Main Staff of

Page 12728

1 the army of Republika Srpska and the Drina Corps for the delivery of 500

2 litres of fuel?

3 A. No. Except on the basis of what I've just read now.

4 Q. And again, did you enjoy the same sort of relationship with

5 Commander Pandurevic during the time that you were in the Krajina that you

6 had done when you were on Operation Krivaja 95? In other words, did you

7 stay with him? Did you travel with him? Did you talk to him?

8 A. I was the commander's operations officer, and on both occasions, I

9 was by the commander's side precisely in order to receive orders, to work

10 them out, and to convey them to the units, which means that I was at the

11 commander's side at all times.

12 Q. And did anything that you discussed or anything he said indicate

13 to you that he had any knowledge of an arrangement being made for the

14 delivery of fuel by the Main Staff to the Drina Corps to be stored at the

15 barracks of the Zvornik Brigade during your absence in the Krajina?

16 A. During our stay in Krajina, we had such problems that fuel for the

17 Zvornik Brigade and for Standard was not a topic that we could have

18 discussed even if we had wanted to.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Now, I want to come back, please, to the

20 16th of September and your return to the Zvornik Brigade command. You've

21 told us that on the 16th of September, when Colonel Pandurevic returned,

22 he dealt with substantially the return of the other units to their

23 respective brigades and that so far as you were aware, he had no contact

24 with Dragan Obrenovic that day. I want to have a look now at the

25 following day, the 17th of September, and can we look, please, at P379, at

Page 12729

1 page 122?

2 I'm very sorry, I might have made a mistake here. We have to

3 start on page 121. I'm very sorry to the Court usher, who is doing a

4 great job.

5 Can we try page 122 again? I'm sorry about this, the 65 ter

6 number at the top -- the ERN number at the top should be 6530. Yes. And

7 could you help us, please, by reading the top lines there? Because I

8 think we might need to see a little bit of the previous page.

9 Mr. Dragutinovic, would you help us, please, by just reading out

10 those top lines and seeing if they make any sense?

11 A. As far as I can see it says here, "Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic

12 should maybe upon arrival in Vlasenica report to General Krstic".

13 Q. And then?

14 A. "And in the afternoon, he should not go to Vlasenica." That's

15 what I read but I'm not sure.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, this is the day after the --

17 A. I understand that somebody ordered Commander Pandurevic to go to

18 Vlasenica and then, in the second part, on the orders of General Krstic,

19 he should not go to Vlasenica because probably something or other had been

20 cancelled. So there was no need for him to go.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, the day prior to this, Colonel Pandurevic had

22 returned with the 1st Drina Brigade which had been ordered by the

23 Drina Corps. Now, would it have been protocol for him to report to

24 General Krstic, the commander of the Drina Corps, upon returning with that

25 brigade?

Page 12730

1 A. Well, it would be logical, but not on that day. He didn't go on

2 that day. I know that for sure. Not to brief, but to make a report; he

3 could have done that in writing. And let me just add on this note that I

4 drafted the reports on the stay of the Zvornik Brigade in Krajina.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, just beneath that entry is a telephone number,

6 and a further entry. I wonder if you could read that out to us?

7 A. It says here, "589-991." I can't read what it says here in the

8 middle but then it says, "In Celopek." Something like, "I am now in

9 Celopek" or something like that. No, it says, "589-991,

10 lieutenant-colonel in Celopek."

11 Q. Thank you. Now Celopek and the telephone number 589-9991 [sic],

12 does that mean anything to you?

13 A. Should I say? It's a private number of a person where the

14 commander was.

15 Q. Thank you, and just lastly, the next entry says what?

16 A. Below this, "Major in" - I'd say Malesic - "at a briefing." Or

17 something like that.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 A. This probably refers to Major Dragan Obrenovic indicating that he

20 was in Malesic at the briefing, most likely in one of the battalions or

21 something like that.

22 Q. Now, I'll ask you again: Do you have any independent recollection

23 of the events of the 17th of September that might help us supplement what

24 the notebook means?

25 A. What do you mean specifically? The same image or something else?

Page 12731

1 Is there something else that you're referring to?

2 Q. Again, Mr. Dragutinovic, you're quite right to criticise my

3 questions. Can I suggest to you that what the notebook shows us is that

4 on the 17th of September, Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic was at a house in

5 Celopek, that he had --

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. That Major Dragan Obrenovic was in Malesici?

8 A. In Malesic, yes.

9 Q. And that Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic had no obligation, at that

10 stage, to go to Vlasenica?

11 A. Yes. He did not have such an obligation because in the previous

12 entry, it is stated that he didn't need to go to Vlasenica, because a

13 commander would not have gone to Celopek on his own initiative. He would

14 go to carry out his task. So this indicates quite clearly that the

15 commander was -- had taken some kind of a leave of absence. He was

16 resting.

17 Q. Thank you. And there is one further minor point about this. It's

18 unusual, isn't it, that the commander and the Chief of Staff are referred

19 to in the notebook by their military rank? They are referred to here as

20 lieutenant-colonel and major, not as commander or Chief of Staff.

21 A. Well, I have to tell you that every officer made the kind of notes

22 that he found the easiest, the most convenient. These were not

23 professional soldiers, where everything has to be done in accordance with

24 the rules just so.

25 Q. Very well. I'll take that no further. But are you aware that on

Page 12732

1 the 17th of September, Commander Pandurevic was given leave of absence by

2 General Krstic to --

3 A. Yes. He was granted leave of absence because of some health

4 problems that he had.

5 Q. And if we can now look at P379, at page 128, and that's the

6 relevant part that is on the screen now, again, there is a telephone

7 number there, and a reference to a room number, and the name of the

8 commander. Is that right?

9 A. Yes. It's quite obvious that the commander had already left. Let

10 me just explain. The commander had some problems with his back. The year

11 before he had had surgery, back surgery, and he'd already had some

12 problems while we were in Krajina. So this is the telephone number, and I

13 guess the room in the hotel where he was staying.

14 Q. And do you know where that hotel was?

15 A. I think it was in Montenegro somewhere.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, later on in the month of September, were you

17 aware that Dragan Obrenovic was asked to command a unit to go to Krajina?

18 A. Yes. I do know about that.

19 Q. I think originally, the unit was to be led by Colonel Furtula of

20 whom we have heard -- Trkulja of whom we've heard previously but when he

21 was unable to do it for various reasons the Drina Corps asked

22 Dragan Obrenovic to take his place?

23 A. Let me correct you here. If I'm not mistaken I think this was

24 Colonel Furtula.

25 Q. I got it right the first time but then I corrected myself and got

Page 12733

1 it wrong. It was Radomir Furtula, wasn't it?

2 A. Yes, yes, if it's Radomir, then that could be Furtula, and I know

3 him quite well so I couldn't have made a mistake. He was appointed the

4 commander of that unit. First for some reasons he was not, then he was.

5 And then he was actually -- actually Major Obrenovic was invited to

6 receive the task.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, just so that we can ascertain the date or

8 relevant dates, could we look at P158, please? And is this the order

9 appointing Dragan Obrenovic as commander of this unit dated the 26th of

10 September of 1995?

11 A. Yes, precisely. That's the document confirming what I've just

12 said, that Radomir Furtula was the man and then Major Dragan Obrenovic was

13 tasked with setting up the brigade.

14 Q. Thank you. And just to follow this through, throughout the period

15 from the 17th of September to the 26th of September, when this order was

16 made, Dragan Obrenovic was the commander of the Zvornik Brigade; that's

17 correct, isn't it?

18 A. Yes. By virtue of his office, he was the deputy commander of the

19 brigade, and he took over the command of the brigade until the 26th, when

20 the commander returned to the brigade.

21 Q. Well, I'm just going to see if we can clarify that. Can we look,

22 please, at Exhibit 37 -- P379 again, page 140? And can we have a look at

23 the entry at 10.00, 1000 hours? Does that refer to a briefing of the

24 battalion and division commanders?

25 A. Yes. It says here under 1000 hours, yes, precisely.

Page 12734

1 Q. And we can see at the top of this page that this refers to the

2 27th of September. Now, that debriefing would have been, wouldn't it, the

3 debriefing held by the commander on his return to the command on that day?

4 A. The briefing of the battalion and artillery battalion commanders

5 is always held in the presence of the commander. In his absence, it is

6 done in the presence of the Chief of Staff. So this means that the

7 commander was present there because Major Obrenovic had already taken on

8 the tasks to set up this brigade that he was supposed to take to Krajina.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, can we just summarise the movement of the

10 commander that you've taken us through? On the 7th of August he departed

11 for the Krajina, returning on the 16th of September; that's correct, isn't

12 it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On neither the 16th nor the 17th, did he resume command of the

15 brigade, nor did he have any contact with Dragan Obrenovic?

16 A. Well, I don't know if he did or not, but he was given leave of

17 absence starting the very next day, and he left the very next day.

18 Q. And he returned when Dragan Obrenovic went off to command another

19 unit on either the 26th or the 27th of September?

20 A. Yes. On the 26th and on the 27th, the commander was already in

21 the brigade.

22 Q. So to all intents and purposes, the commander of the

23 Zvornik Brigade was Dragan Obrenovic from the 7th of August to the 26th or

24 27th of September?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12735

1 Q. Now, were you yourself ever aware of 500 litres of fuel being

2 stored -- sorry, 5.000 litres of fuel being stored at the barracks at

3 Standard?

4 A. No. I never heard about such a quantity of fuel being stored in

5 our barracks.

6 Q. Did you ever see such a quantity of fuel --

7 A. I did not see it and I did not have to know.

8 Q. And I just want to show you a few images now, please. Can we see

9 P171 -- sorry, P2103, at page 171?

10 Do you know the dam at Petkovci?

11 A. I know the dam well because my construction company worked there,

12 but if this image depicts the dam, I do not distinguish it.

13 Q. Well, let me put a simple question to you. These images are

14 intended to show that sometime between the 7th of September 1995 and the

15 27th of September 1995, some bodies were dug up at the dam at Petkovci.

16 Were you at that time aware of anything like that going on?

17 A. No. I was never aware of any excavations. I never learned that

18 from any source.

19 Q. And again, a question I've asked you two or three times: So far

20 as you were aware, could Vinko Pandurevic know anything of any such

21 engineering operations?

22 A. In which period?

23 Q. Well, between the 7th and the 27th of September would be pretty

24 important.

25 A. No. No way. Because we were not at all in the area of defence of

Page 12736

1 the Zvornik Brigade. We were in Krajina. We were engaged in completely

2 different missions. I'm hearing about this for the first time, and the

3 commander couldn't have known either.

4 Q. Just for the sake of completeness, I'd like the witness to see

5 page 220 of the same exhibit. Again, so far as you were aware, did the

6 commander at the time you were in Krajina have any knowledge of

7 excavations going on at the Branjevo state farm?

8 A. No. He had no knowledge at all, if this is an image of Branjevo.

9 Yes, actually I recognise this picture, but only because I am a surveyor

10 by training and I worked there before the war. This is the old farm.

11 Q. And lastly, page 240 of the same exhibit. This is Orahovac. Did

12 you or the commander have any knowledge of excavations going on at

13 Orahovac between the 7th and the 27th of September?

14 A. Well, the same response: No. I can see here that there is the

15 railroad up there in the upper corner, but no, no.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, you've talked in the course of your evidence

17 about two operations that you and the commander took part in in July,

18 August and September of 1995. But it was a common occurrence, wasn't it,

19 for either the commander or the Chief of Staff to go on operations outside

20 the Zvornik area?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And when either of them returned, was there any formality to their

23 greeting of one another?

24 A. As far as I can recall, and this is not something that I'm likely

25 to forget because we were all on good, friendly terms, there were no

Page 12737

1 military formal greetings or giving reports. What would usually happen

2 would be we would come across each other and we would then just

3 say, "Hello," if -- provided we survived. So these were just the usual

4 kind of encounters.

5 Q. I mean, to get straight at the point, did you ever see

6 Major Dragan Obrenovic salute Vinko Pandurevic upon his return to the unit

7 and give him a report on the situation there and then?

8 A. Not that I remember.

9 Q. Now, I want to show you a few photographs now, if I may. Can we

10 see 7D581?

11 JUDGE KWON: If you could check the number again?

12 MR. HAYNES: I am doing, Judge Kwon, and I'm assured I'm right but

13 I've been assured I'm right many times and have been wrong. Thank you.

14 Q. You recognise that photograph, do you?

15 A. Our former command.

16 Q. And if we can take a walk through it, if we go to 7D582, no, 7D586

17 first, please. And turn that one round, please. Is that a photograph

18 going through the doors of the command and showing just on the right there

19 the stairway up to the first floor?

20 A. Yes. Yes. We see the front door, the stairway. To the right of

21 the front door there was a small room where an officer -- a soldier, that

22 is, was on duty.

23 Q. And what other personnel would have been present when this

24 building was used as command on the ground floor?

25 A. There were offices to the left, offices of the military police

Page 12738

1 company, and somewhere there my staff office was there, I think if you go

2 straight ahead. To the right there was a room in which we held training

3 sometimes. A medical corps office. And to the left, next to the military

4 police company room, was a passage leading to the canteen.

5 Q. And was this entrance area frequently busy with people coming in

6 and out and occupying nearby offices?

7 A. Usually, yes. I forgot also there was a room where the assistant

8 Chief of Staff for organisation and mobilisation was sitting. So the

9 place was never empty.

10 Q. Can we now go to 7D582? And does that show us the stairway up to

11 the first floor, the first flight, and 7D583 --

12 A. I suppose so. I suppose that is the stairway.

13 Q. And that, the second --

14 A. This is photographed from the upper landing, and the stairway goes

15 on, leading to the floor where the communications company was housed.

16 That is part of it.

17 Q. Now, can we have 7D584, please? Does this show the first floor

18 hallway in which most of the brigade officers had their offices?

19 A. Yes. That's the hallway. And I could tell you which office is

20 which from my recollection.

21 Q. Well, I'm going to try and quicken that up by putting some

22 questions to you and I don't want to you mark the photograph. But the

23 first doorway on the right was the office of the duty operations officer,

24 wasn't it?

25 A. Yes, correct.

Page 12739

1 Q. And then came the offices of Sreten Milosevic. There was a

2 meeting room?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And operational office --

5 A. Yes, the operations room.

6 Q. Then your office?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then the office of Dragan Obrenovic?

9 A. Yes. He was right next door to me.

10 Q. And on the left-hand side, the chief of signals -- no, the chief

11 of engineering, Jokic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then the chief of signals, Petrovic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then the assistant commander for moral, religious and legal

16 affairs?

17 A. Yes, on that side.

18 Q. Then Drago Nikolic' office?

19 A. Yes. He was on that side too.

20 Q. And at the bottom on the left, Vinko Pandurevic?

21 A. Yes. That was the commander's office.

22 Q. A busy corridor?

23 A. There was always someone there, and on the other side was the

24 staff command, some messengers, parts of the security detail, the police

25 section attached to the command, a coffee bar, and that was all.

Page 12740

1 Q. Now, could we have, please, on an entirely unrelated matter put

2 into --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We have only got one more minute left.

4 MR. HAYNES: I have only got one more question.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, please.

6 MR. HAYNES: Could we have P377 put into e-court, please, at

7 page 177?

8 Q. Now, you've told us previously that you were regularly present at

9 brigade morning meetings and debriefings. This is a record of a --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- debriefing on the 23rd of July. Were you present at that

12 debriefing?

13 A. 23rd July, yes.

14 Q. And was the commander also present?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the Chief of Staff?

17 A. Yes, as usual, everybody was there.

18 Q. And at that meeting, was there any discussion of prisoners of war

19 or detainees?

20 A. If I remember well, the commander demanded that part of the

21 prisoners who were held in our detention be evacuated as soon as possible

22 to Batkovici and he demanded that from the corps command. Why they were

23 kept there, I can't remember. But it wasn't our decision. It was their

24 order.

25 Q. Thank you. And thank you very much, Mr. Dragutinovic. I

Page 12741

1 apologise to you for having taken so long but I hope you'll understand I

2 did so in the interests of my client.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. I take it that that brings

4 to an end your cross-examination.

5 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Dragutinovic, we will continue on Monday

7 morning, and we will be doing our utmost to try and finish. In the

8 meantime between now and then, same advisory as I had for you yesterday.

9 You're not to communicate with anyone on the subject matter of your

10 testimony. Have a nice weekend, everybody.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. Thank you.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of June,

14 2007, at 9.00 a.m.