1 Tuesday, 19 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everybody. Good afternoon to you,
6 Madam Registrar. Could you kindly call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All the accused are present. From the
10 Defence teams I notice the absence of Mr. Meek and the return of
11 Mr. Ostojic and Ms. Condon. The Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Thayer,
12 Mr. Nicholls, Mr. Vanderpuye. I understand there are some preliminaries.
13 If they are not related to the rest of the evidence of this witness I
14 suggest that we first finish with this witness and then raise the issues
15 before the next one comes along. All right?
16 So let's bring the witness in, please.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Dragutinovic. Welcome
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Hopefully we'll finish within a short time, so I
22 just remind you that you are still testifying under oath.
23 Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you,
25 good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon, counsel.
1 WITNESS: MIODRAG DRAGUTINOVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dragutinovic. Yesterday, in relation to some
5 questions I put to you regarding the involvement of the security organ in
6 the schools, you had indicated that you had reviewed the duty operations
7 notebook. I wanted to show you an entry from that notebook. Could I have
8 65 ter 377, please, in e-court?
9 And could we page forward to ERN 02935796, please?
10 Thank you.
11 Is it possible to have the translation also placed upon the screen
12 or no? I'll just --
13 JUDGE KWON: What's the date?
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: The date is the 23rd of July 1995.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Do you have the page number?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Of where the date is?
17 THE REGISTRAR: The page number of the translation.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, it's not among the previously translated
19 pages but I can have the witness read it to the extent that he can.
20 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic, I'd just like to direct your attention if I
21 could, to the entry that begins with 031854389. And I wonder if you could
22 read that entry into the record, please.
23 A. "Skelani have two" -- it could be injured, the next word could be
24 injured, "Turks - I said to kill them off because Bratunac does not want
25 to receive them." I think that's what it reads.
1 Q. This was an entry that was made by the duty operations officer the
2 23rd of July 1995. Have you seen this entry before, Mr. Dragutinovic?
3 A. Yes, I have. And I know who wrote this.
4 Q. And is that direction consistent with your view that the prisoners
5 were treated fairly and consistently with the Geneva Convention, as you
6 testified previously?
7 A. What is written here is by no means in keeping with the Geneva
8 Conventions or what I said before, but it does not necessarily reflect the
9 general situation at the Zvornik Brigade because the person who wrote this
10 appeared here as a witness. I believe he made a statement concerning
11 this. And I would not like to comment upon it. He has been interrogated,
12 questioned, and he had to explain the reason why he wrote this. As for
13 these people, Skelani have nothing to do with the Zvornik Brigade and the
14 person who called the Zvornik Brigade, frankly, I don't know why they
15 called, this battalion does not belong to the Zvornik Brigade.
16 Q. Very well.
17 A. So that I don't see any connection, so as I said, the person who
18 wrote this appeared before you as a witness and you must have asked him to
20 Q. When did you learn --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is he referring to?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: I was just going to ask him that.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The duty operations officer, I
24 believe it was Mr. Ljubo Bojanovic.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE:
1 Q. And Ljubo Bojanovic was your subordinate during that period of
2 time; isn't that right?
3 A. No. At that time, he was already part of the section for morale.
4 Q. And when did you learn that he made this entry into the duty
5 officer's notebook?
6 A. I couldn't review everything, so I learned about this later,
7 somewhat later, and we were unable to check and find out what happened to
8 the people concerned in this entry. Ljubo Bojanovic's comment or
9 explanation was that we had nothing to do with it, and it was -- well, I
10 can hardly call it a slip, but as I said before, you must have asked him
11 for an explanation and he must have given you one. I wouldn't like to
13 Q. Very well. You don't have any personal information as to what
14 happened to the prisoners that are mentioned in this particular entry, do
16 A. No, no, no.
17 Q. Let me ask you about a different area altogether. You had
18 mentioned that following your return from the vicinity of Zepa around the
19 15th of July forward, that there were units from the 16th -- it was a unit
20 from the 16th Krajina Motorised Brigade?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment. Mr. Bourgon?
22 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. May we have a reference
23 so that we can keep up with exactly what the -- my colleague is referring
24 to so we know when this question was asked and what context so we may
25 assess whether it is properly within the scope of re-examination.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Do you have the specific
2 reference you're referring to?
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do. It's at transcript page 12, line 7 --
4 well, page 12706 to page 12707.
5 Q. These were questions that were put to you by my colleague,
6 Mr. Haynes. In particular, you can start on page 12706, line 10 and we
7 can go through line 19, if you would like, if it would satisfy my
8 colleague, I could read the exact question and answer into the record but
9 I'll ask the witness if he recalls. I think that will probably be
11 Do you recall having mentioned in your testimony that there was a
12 unit from the Krajina in or around the area where you were between the
13 16th to the 18th of July 1995?
14 A. Yes. That unit was there.
15 Q. That unit, was it under the control of your commander at that
17 A. The unit was resubordinated to the command of the Zvornik Brigade
18 as soon as they came to the Zvornik Brigade.
19 Q. And as best as you recall, when was it that they came to the
20 Zvornik Brigade or were subordinated to the Zvornik Brigade?
21 A. Brigade was brought into the area of the 7th Battalion in the
22 evening of the 6th -- sorry, not brigade, company. And I was with that
23 company on the 17th and the 18th, and it could have arrived like two days
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Can I just have P02838 in e-court, please?
1 Q. Mr. Dragutinovic, in the area where you were, were you in
2 communication with this unit from the Krajina?
3 A. Yes. In the evening of the 17th -- 16th, on the 17th and on the
4 18th. Only during the day of the 18th, not in the evening.
5 Q. And as far as you're aware, was that unit in contact with the
6 forward command post where your commander was?
7 A. Not that I know. The only possibility is that the company
8 commander was taken to the forward command post or maybe somebody from the
9 command led that company to a different location in the field and later on
10 the company was resubordinated to us on the 15th or something like that,
11 but the whole company did not go to the forward command post.
12 Q. Did you ever receive any information regarding the participation
13 of that unit in the execution of Muslim prisoners during the period of
14 time that they were resubordinated to your brigade? And in particular, on
15 or about the 19th of July 1995?
16 A. No.
17 Q. All right. All right, Mr. Dragutinovic. Thank you for your time.
18 I have no further questions at this time.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 Mr. Dragutinovic, as you see, we have managed to conclude your
21 testimony within a relatively short time today, which enables you to go
22 back home at the earliest. On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to
23 thank you for being kind enough to come over and give testimony, and on
24 behalf of everyone I also wish you a safe journey back home.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We come to the document exhibit tendering process
4 now. The Prosecution, you've got four documents to tender; is that
5 correct? Basically they are --
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have the duty officer's notebook, 377,
7 Mr. President, that I would like to tender.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I want to make sure that I do
9 not have any confusion here. I'm asking you to combine together documents
10 that you use and wish to tender, both in the course of your
11 examination-in-chief and your redirect.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. We have two documents that we wish to
13 tender from the direct, which are 65 ter 318 and 65 ter 689. We have from
14 the redirect, we have 65 ter 377, 65 ter 1309 and 1310. Those are the
15 intercepts which have already been marked for identification and will stay
16 that way. 65 ter 962 which was the 15th July interim combat report. 65
17 ter 341, which was the 23rd July combat report, daily combat report. And
18 that's it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Before I ask the Defence teams for their
20 remarks, I'm informed that 65 ter number 377, which Mr. Vanderpuye used
21 during his redirect has already been used and introduced with
22 Witness Jovicic, and that was marked for identification purposes. That's
23 just for your information.
24 Now, any objections to the admittance of any of these documents,
25 Mr. Haynes?
1 MR. HAYNES: No objection. I wonder whether we could just have an
2 update on the translation of P377, because it's becoming a bit of a
3 nuisance, not being able to use it fully.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I don't know who can enlighten us, Mr. Thayer?
5 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.
7 MR. THAYER: I have made inquiries. We are still trying to
8 determine from CLSS which portions have been translated at the defence's
9 request so we can integrate them with ours and I'm awaiting an assessment
10 from our team translation people to find out how much in total is left.
11 So we are still determining that. I can't give you a time estimate on how
12 long it's going to take to translate the remainder but we are actually
13 optimistic. I spoke with our team person yesterday. She believes at
14 least the second half of the entire notebook has been translated which
15 just leaves whatever is left from the first half, that the Defence has not
16 already requested to be translated. That's my understanding at this
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Any objections from
19 anyone? None? So 377, there is no need for it to be tendered again
20 because it has been marked for identification already. 1309 --
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are trying to find out here whether the reason
23 for marking for identification, document 65 ter number 377 was only the
24 absence of translation or whether there was any other reason or objection
25 behind which or on the basis of which -- yes, Mr. Thayer?
1 MR. THAYER: My recollection, Mr. President, is that that was the
2 only hangup with respect to that document, as both sides have liberally
3 used, and I believe intend to continue to liberally use the document.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So seems to be also the
5 impression of Madam Registrar. Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. President I just
7 wanted to point out that based on the witness's testimony today with
8 respect to Ljubo Bojanovic in particular, we will be seeking to introduce
9 his prior testimony pursuant to 92 quater.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The pleasure is yet to come, sort of.
11 So we are talking of 65 ter number 1309 A, B and C; 1310 A, B and
12 C; 962; and 341. These are 65 ter numbers. And then again, 318 and 689.
13 All right.
14 I think out of deference, I would go to the Pandurevic Defence
15 team documents. You have distributed a list.
16 MR. HAYNES: Yes, I'm not proposing to go through it. Can I
17 acknowledge one failing with the list? I had intended that there should
18 be some analysis in the document of which of these exhibits have already
19 been tendered into evidence because I'm sure that some of them have, and
20 I'm sure that can be attended to before the end of today's sitting and
21 that will simplify this process. It's explicit as to the absence of
22 translation of documents and I think in the next column along, MFI can be
23 written next to any document which has no English translation but if you
24 would give me just the opportunity of checking which of the 42 documents
25 have already been tendered into evidence, we can finalise this process
1 much more simply at a later stage in the day.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Madam Registrar will also look into that
3 because it will show up on her computer and simplify it. They have a
4 programme for that.
5 MR. HAYNES: Aren't they lucky?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime I would like to know whether there
7 is any objection from the Prosecution side to any of these documents after
8 which I will ask the other Defence teams whether they object to the
9 admission of any of these documents. Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: We have none, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Any of the other Defence teams wishes to
12 object? None. So subject to verification, all these documents are being
13 admitted. Those which are -- that have not yet been translated will
14 obviously be marked for identification purposes pending translation
15 thereof. And those which have already been tendered through previous
16 witnesses will not be considered tendered again. Those are the only two
17 caveats, all right? Thank you, Mr. Haynes. And thank you,
18 Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 I think Miletic Defence team, you have also circulated a document
20 listing the documents you wish to tender, mostly they are entries in the
21 regular -- from the regular combat report which you referred to earlier on
22 in one of your submissions, Madam Fauveau. And it also shows which ones
23 have been translated and which ones haven't. Actually almost none of them
24 have been translated. Maybe one or two. Any objection on your part,
25 Mr. Vanderpuye?
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, I didn't ask you but I thought I had
3 covered -- do you wish to state anything, Madam Fauveau?
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection from any of the Defence teams? None.
6 So these documents are admitted with the usual caveat, those that have not
7 yet received a translation will in the meantime and until they are so
8 translated remain marked for identification. Thank you.
9 Nikolic Defence team, you've got two documents that you wish to
10 tender 3D165 and 3D166, which is also 37 -- which is 65 ter number 379.
11 Are there -- yes, Madam Nikolic? Are there any objections on your part,
12 Mr. Vanderpuye?
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: There are none, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Any of the other Defence teams? We hear none. So
15 the first one of these will remain marked for identification. You have a
16 draft translation, but we require a proper, formal one, unless you are
17 happy with the draft translation.
18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are happy with the
19 draft translation, but just to be sure, we will be providing an official
20 translation as is the usual practice.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's take the usual course. We'll mark it for
22 identification pending official translation thereof. The second one,
23 second document, is admitted.
24 There are no other Defence teams that wish to tender any documents
25 with this witness, Dragutinovic? None. So that closes that chapter.
1 And we now come to the preliminary matter that you wish to raise,
2 Mr. Zivanovic. One moment, because I think Madam Registrar wants to raise
3 something else.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: 1309 and 1310, I don't think there is a need to have
6 them readmitted because they have already been admitted previously. And
7 marked for identification actually.
8 So Mr. Zivanovic, you have the floor.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like to address the
10 Trial Chamber regarding the Prosecution witness 128, but considering the
11 sensitive and confidential nature of this information, I would like to go
12 to private session.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, of course,
14 Mr. Zivanovic.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 12841-12848 redacted. Private session
25 [Open session]
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't understand
2 how that can be irrelevant, namely the fact that the Prosecutor clearly
3 violated the rules of evidence and procedure, consistently with
4 Article 43, when the Prosecutor questions a suspect that has to be
5 recorded. The fact that there was a change of status during the interview
6 does not change this fact in any way. So if the Prosecutor didn't have
7 the necessary equipment with him, he could interrupt the interview and
8 bring the equipment the next day. I find it inadmissible that we receive
9 three pages of notes to cover an interview that was four hours long and
10 during two and a half out of those four hours the witness was in the
11 status of a suspect, and the claim of the Prosecutor that this is
12 irrelevant, I find inadmissible and unacceptable.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Apart from the relevance or irrelevance thing, the
14 thing is it seems that what's -- there's no remedy to this. They don't
15 exist. There is no video recording and there are no further notes than
16 what you have been given. So what do you want? I mean us to declare that
17 the whole interview was at least as to 50 per cent irregularly conducted
18 and therefore you should even -- the Prosecution should not have even
19 given you the report, interview report or whatever it's called? I think
20 we better stick to what is really pertinent now, the issue of whether we
21 should delay the testimony of this gentleman or not.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau. You may sit down, I'll ask you
24 to intervene soon, very soon.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I'm
1 concerned, this witness doesn't concern my client at all. However, I am
2 personally very concerned with a procedure that the Prosecutor followed.
3 For my part, I want a clear explanation from the Prosecutor how it was
4 possible to question a witness, a suspect in fact, for two and a half
5 hours without any recording.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I would have allowed as much time as possible
7 to discuss this, if the person you were representing was that witness. I
8 mean we are talking of something completely different here. I mean, if
9 there was an irregularity, the complainant, strictly speaking, should be
10 that person and as far as you are concerned, you almost consider yourself
11 lucky that at least you have a document that has been made available.
12 Yes, Mr. Ostojic and then Mr. Bourgon?
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, on two points, Mr. President if I may.
14 What's curious is that my learned friend from the Prosecution says that
15 the notes are not available or he says is not available. If you look at--
16 if we look at it, the information report and the interview was conducted
17 on the 29th of October 2002, the information report was not generated
18 immediately thereafter but two weeks later on the 11th of November 2002.
19 For him to simply suggest to you that there are no notes available really
20 calls into question how is it that, within two weeks, they were able to
21 create this information report, having no notes, not even telling us
22 whether they ever had notes, whether they were ultimately destroyed and
24 Secondly, I agree with Your Honour that there is no remedy. The
25 prejudice does exist but there is no remedy. The remedy offered by the
1 Prosecution that we can call back this witness is woefully inadequate and
2 they should not only follow the rules but we see in other instances when
3 this individual, 128, was considered a witness, they tape-recorded him.
4 Those tapes don't exist. We do see that there is a transcript showing
5 tape 1, side A and B, et cetera. When he's converted into a suspect four
6 years ago, four and a half years ago, they don't follow up with another
7 interview with him or conduct an interview categorising him as a suspect
8 as they qualified him as being. It's a violation of the rules.
9 I agree with the Court there is no remedy, however my client has
10 been prejudiced as a result of this. Nothing in his prior interviews that
11 have been conducted does he reference or mention Mr. Beara at all in those
12 interviews. Surprisingly, in some summary fashion through third or fourth
13 party sources, there is a reference of approximately one or two lines to
14 my client which comes new but there is no record of it that this witness
15 said it. We have not interviewed this witness, we have not discussed with
16 this witness at any time, although counsel said that some have. I just
17 want the record to be clear on that. They had the notes because they
18 couldn't have conducted the information report two weeks after the
19 interview. They tell us that it's not available but we would like an
20 explanation because it's a direct violation of the rules, and quite
21 candidly, there is no remedy but there is prejudice to my client and I
22 believe to the rest of the Defence as well.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Rules mention video recording, not necessarily the
24 taking down of notes but I think, let's conclude on this. Do you know of
25 the existence of these notes, Mr. Nicholls?
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Very quickly, Your Honour. The investigator
2 present was contacted yesterday, he's no longer with the Tribunal, and
3 said that those notes were destroyed after he -- after the information
4 report was done. So I didn't say there were no notes taken during the
5 interview but those notes were later destroyed at some point before he
6 left the Tribunal, after he had written the information report. The tape
7 recordings of the two tape-recorded interviews are available, the ones
8 from 2001 and 2002. So I don't know what my friend was referring to
9 there. This is the first we've ever had -- request we've had is in this
10 courtroom today for those tape recordings of those transcripts. Those are
11 available, I'm sure, and I think I've answered his questions.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understood it to be yesterday, at
13 least. Mr. Bourgon?
14 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. With all due respect,
15 Mr. President, I have some difficulty understanding the Trial Chamber
16 saying to us that we are lucky to have some information coming from a
17 witness when it is the duty of the Prosecution when they meet a witness to
18 provide us with what the witness has said. That's normal disclosure. I
19 don't think we are lucky to have this information. I think it is owed to
20 us. But that's not the most important point, Mr. President. It's that
21 there is during such a -- the interview that took place which gave rise to
22 the production of the information report, during the segment of the
23 interview it is mentioned that the status of the witness was changed to
24 that of a suspect and that's what it said, he was not being truthful about
25 the identification of the soldiers being present at Rocevic school. For
1 this reason, they changed the status of the witness to that of a suspect.
2 Once a suspect, during an interview that lasts two and a half
3 hours, the witness provided new information, not previously mentioned in
4 any of his interviews, as well as information which contradicts
5 information in his two previous interviews, now, as a Defence counsel, I
6 want to represent my client and knowing how is it that this witness
7 changed his mind during the interview and how is it that this witness
8 could have provided new information because he was under pressure of being
9 a suspect.
10 At the end of the interview, once the Prosecution is satisfied
11 about what information has been received, then they change the status back
12 to that of a normal witness. So for two and a half hours, this is the
13 information, Mr. President, that we would like to have. Now, contrary to
14 what my colleague has said, I believe that there is an existing remedy.
15 The remedy is twofold. First of all, as a minimum, we would ask to have,
16 to know whether my colleague, Mr. McCloskey, senior trial attorney,
17 present at the Tribunal for many years, whether he took any notes during
18 that interview and whether he has any notes because he was conducting that
20 Secondly, we would like to have from the Office of the Prosecution
21 a reassurance whether it be by the chief of Prosecution or the chief of
22 investigation that when investigators leave the Tribunal, they do leave
23 their stuff behind and that notes are not destroyed. This is the property
24 of the Tribunal. It's the only record we have of what really happened
25 during that interview because they failed to abide by the rules, and also,
1 if there is new information mentioned in the information report, I believe
2 that the remedy simply should be that the Prosecution should not be
3 authorised to lead any questions to the witness concerning this new
4 information. Mr. President, that addresses only the part about this --
5 the fact that the interview wasn't recorded. But I also would like to
6 address the Chamber concerning the other issue and I'd like to move into
7 private session.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go to private session, please.
9 [Private session]
11 Page 12856 redacted. Private session
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So following your submissions, we need to have some
20 time to -- for consultations. We will have the break now instead of 15
21 minutes' time and it will be a 30-minute break. Thank you.
22 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, we realised when we were discussing
25 that Mr. Bourgon did refer to you, in the sense that we don't know, we
1 haven't been told, whether you, who were present there during the
2 interview, kept any notes yourself. And then the other issue, namely
3 whether it is the practice in the OTP that when investigators leave the
4 Tribunal, they leave their stuff behind rather than destroy notes. Do you
5 have anything to or do you wish to state anything in regard to these two
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can respond to the Court's inquiry. Yes, I was
8 at that interview. I've been at a lot of interviews over ten years. I
9 generally do not -- I have an outline but I didn't keep notes. That's why
10 there is always an investigator there, and the issue of investigators,
11 whether or not they destroy their notes, that is normally, has been in the
12 past, left up to the investigator. Many police departments have that
13 policy that when you type up your report you destroy the notes. I don't
14 know about this particular situation, though. I know that we -- I
15 believe, well, Mr. Bursik's been contacted by another investigator but I
16 have not, nor has Mr. Nicholls spoken to him. If there is any more
17 details that are needed but that's the situation.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We have discussed and come to a conclusion. We will
19 communicate our conclusion to you either at the end of this session or
20 after the next break. We just need to formulate the few bullet points
21 which are at the basis of it.
22 So now, next witness?
23 And this is -- he hasn't got any protective measures, does he? We
24 are talking of --
25 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just a brief preliminary with respect
1 to this witness before he's brought in.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Does he need a caution?
3 MR. THAYER: He does, and I had a discussion with him about
4 protective measures. He may feel more at ease if he hears a brief
5 explanation or description from Your Honour about the parameters that the
6 Trial Chamber follows concerning granting protective measures. I've
7 explained it to him. He understands; I think it might make him feel a
8 little more comfortable just to hear it from the Trial Chamber. I'm not
9 asking for protective measures. I've explained to him that given the
10 circumstances he described, that they most likely would not be forthcoming
11 given the prior practice of this Trial Chamber. He's comfortable with
12 that. He has concerns based on the fact that he is a police officer. He
13 is concerned about being contacted by journalists. He is concerned that
14 he's being called by the Prosecution.
15 I explained to him that his employer has indicated, which is the
16 MUP, has basically required that he be here pursuant to our request. I've
17 indicated to him that the fact that he's concerned about journalists or
18 the fact that he's a police officer does not rise to the level, in the
19 Prosecution's opinion, to warrant formally applying for the protective
20 measures. He understands that. If the Court would indulge my request, I
21 think it might make him feel more comfortable also hearing it from the
22 Trial Chamber. I understand if the Trial Chamber does not desire to
23 intervene in that process. I understand why the Chamber would not want
24 to. I just offer that as a suggestion for the sake of the witness's
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So we have an understanding counsel, an
2 understanding witness, and a request to the Trial Chamber.
3 One moment.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Does any one of the Defence teams wish to address
6 this issue? I don't think so but anyway, okay. We'll come back to you
7 very shortly.
8 MR. THAYER: I thank you, Mr. President.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: The way we will go about it is this: We have not
11 been seized with a motion for protective measures so you understand that
12 our intervention will be very limited. We will convert ourselves into
13 private session for a short while, while he walks in, he sits down, I'll
14 interview him a minute or two, and then we will proceed. So let's go into
15 private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 12861 redacted. Private session
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, we are going to proceed -- we are not yet -- we
13 are going to proceed now in open session. The witness has made a solemn
14 declaration to testify the truth.
15 Mr. Thayer will go first. He will ask you some questions and then
16 he will be followed by the various Defence teams on cross-examination.
17 Before you start giving evidence, I need to remind you also of a
18 special right that exists under our rules relating to witnesses. And it
19 basically says the following. There are some witnesses who, if they are
20 asked some questions which they are compelled to answer, could lead them
21 to incrimination, possible incrimination. We have a hedge. We have a
22 right in our rules to try and protect witnesses from being compelled to
23 answer questions which could possibly incriminate them in the future. But
24 it is not an absolute right. In such a case, if a question is put to you
25 which you have an objection to, because it could tend to incriminate you,
1 you first need to ask for our intervention and explain to us your
2 contention. We might agree with you or we might decide to disagree with
4 Obviously if we agree with you, you will be exempted from
5 answering that question. If we disagree with you, we will compel you to
6 answer those questions. But if you give answers, you make statements in
7 answer to such questions because you are compelled by the Trial Chamber
8 and not because you wanted to, then your statement would not be able, will
9 not be used as evidence against you in any subsequent Prosecution that
10 might be taken against you, except if you are prosecuted for false
11 testimony, which at the moment is beside the point.
12 So have I explained this right clear to you? All right. And were
13 you aware of that --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Were you aware of that before?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Thayer, he's in your hands.
18 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
20 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. Would you please state your full name for the record?
23 A. Dobrisav Stanojevic.
24 Q. And just how old are you, sir?
25 A. 36 years.
1 Q. Where were you born and raised?
2 A. I was born in a village Zalazje, that's in Srebrenica municipality
3 and I was raised in Srebrenica. My documents list the village of Obadi as
4 my place of birth but that's the local commune. I was in fact born in the
5 village of Zalazje.
6 Q. And you identify yourself as a Bosnian Serb, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber how you're currently
10 A. Right now, I work at the dog training centre in Bratunac which is
11 part of the Republika Srpska police administration. Up until that time, I
12 worked in Srebrenica, and then at my request I was transferred to the
14 Q. And when did you first begin working in Srebrenica prior to going
15 to the dog training centre, and in what capacity were you employed when
16 you were employed in Srebrenica?
17 A. I think I was transferred to Srebrenica on the 1st of January
18 1997, and I was just an ordinary police officer, and at that time, while I
19 worked in Srebrenica, I was the sector leader, and then I became the shift
21 Q. And just can you put a year on when you went to the canine
22 training unit?
23 A. I think it was in 2002.
24 Q. What I'd like to do now, sir, is review with you briefly your
25 military service history, and if I may I'd just like to summarise it to
1 move things along a little bit more quickly if I could. And please
2 correct me when I'm done if I've misstated anything or left anything out,
3 okay? In the spring of 1992, you joined a unit called the Srebrenica
4 Guard which consisted of about 30 soldiers who were refugees from
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That unit, the Srebrenica Guard, was dismantled in mid-1992 and
8 became part of the Bratunac Brigade, its 3rd Battalion?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You were subsequently transferred from the army to the MUP,
11 municipal police, in March of 1993?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you explain just briefly why you were transferred, if you
14 know, to the MUP?
15 A. Well, I'm not able to give you a specific answer. I was just an
16 ordinary soldier. I think there was a request made by the police station
17 for somebody from Srebrenica, a refugee from Srebrenica, should join the
18 police in Bratunac.
19 Q. And did you receive any training from the MUP for your new
20 position? And if so, where was that training?
21 A. Yes. I underwent training. I completed a police training course
22 in Jahorina. That was in 1993.
23 Q. And where were you assigned after completing that training, sir?
24 A. In the police station in Bratunac.
25 Q. And just generally speaking, what were your duties at the police
1 station in Bratunac?
2 A. Well, I was a police officer, a beat police officer, and I just
3 performed everyday police duties.
4 Q. Can you describe, please, the command structure at that time of
5 the police station in Bratunac?
6 A. Do you mean the names or just the functions?
7 Q. Both, if you would, just perhaps the top two levels in the
9 A. Well, the top two, the police station chief was Mr. Luka
10 Bogdanovic, and the police station commander was Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin.
11 Q. And at some point, was Mr. Borovcanin replaced as the commander of
12 that station? And if so, do you recall approximately when?
13 A. Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin left to take up a new function in the
14 Special Police unit. I think it was sometime in late 1993 or early 1994.
15 I can't remember exactly.
16 Q. Okay. I want to turn to a slightly different topic for just a
17 couple of questions. In addition to your regular police duties, did you
18 also serve in a PJP company?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And which company was that, sir?
21 A. It was the 1st Company of the PJP that was part of the Zvornik
22 centre. Of course, it was part of the Republika Srpska Ministry of the
24 Q. And when you say the Zvornik centre, do you mean the Zvornik
25 public security centre, sir?
1 A. No. That's the public security centre Zvornik, the Zvornik public
2 security centre.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, the Trial Chamber has already heard testimony
4 about how PJP companies are made up of policemen from municipal police
5 stations belonging to a particular centre. Can you recall for the Trial
6 Chamber from which police stations the 1st Zvornik PJP company was formed?
7 A. The 1st Company consisted of the Zvornik police station, the
8 Milici police station, Vlasenica, Sekovici, Bratunac and Skelani.
9 Q. And who was the commander of the 1st Company?
10 A. Mr. Radomir Pantic, Raso Pantic.
11 Q. And was the company subdivided into smaller units?
12 A. It was divided into three platoons, the 1st, the 2nd and the 3rd.
13 Q. And who was your platoon commander, sir?
14 A. Police officer Dusan Micic.
15 Q. And again, just generally speaking, sir, what duties did you carry
16 out as a PJP member?
17 A. Well, nothing special. I was just a member of the PJP.
18 Q. Okay. Well, when you were a member of the PJP, would you be
19 deployed on occasion to the field?
20 A. Yes. Depending on the actual needs.
21 Q. Okay. And if you could just give the Trial Chamber just a general
22 idea of what kind of tasks you performed as a PJP member in the field?
23 A. Well, depending on the situation and our involvement, we would
24 mostly be deployed when the Muslim units would perform raids in our
25 territories, when the lines would be broken through, and then in
1 cooperation with the army, we would put a stop to the Muslim army
3 Q. And how often were you deployed in the field?
4 A. Well, depending on the actual needs. Sometimes a month would go
5 without our going out and then we would go two or three times within the
6 next month and then for three months we would go maybe once. It all
7 depended on the actual situation. But there was no rule.
8 Q. And when you were not in the field, what were you doing?
9 A. Regular police duties.
10 Q. And sir, when you were deployed as a PJP member would you ever see
11 Special Police Brigade units operating in the same area as you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what kind of tasks did the Special Police Brigade units carry
15 A. Well, I don't know exactly. I'm not sure about their activities.
16 I think that they were mostly engaged in combat and I don't know anything
17 more than that.
18 Q. And that's fine, sir. Would you characterise the nature of the
19 tasks that you carried out as a PJP member as the same types of combat
20 tasks that the Special Police Brigade typically carried out or were your
21 tasks different in any way, generally speaking, from those of the Special
22 Police Brigade?
23 A. While we were in the field, they were almost the same.
24 Q. And when were you deployed in the field with your PJP unit, did
25 you wear a uniform?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what did the uniform consist in, sir? Can you describe it?
3 A. Well, it was green, a green camouflage pattern uniform.
4 Q. Did you wear any insignia or emblems or patches on your uniform,
6 A. Yes. My unit had the insignia indicating that it was the
7 1st Company of the Zvornik centre.
8 Q. And what type of equipment were you issued?
9 A. Well, nothing in -- nothing special. We were issued weapons,
10 bullet-proof vests, uniforms and also sets of ammunition for our weapons.
11 Q. And did you ever carry hand grenades, sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. I want to turn your attention to July of 1995. At that
14 time, were you still serving as a regular policeman in the Bratunac police
15 station and as a PJP member?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I want to focus on the time of the VRS attack on the Srebrenica
18 enclave. During the first week of July, when the VRS attacked the
19 enclave, did you or your PJP unit take part in that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. During the second week of July 1995, did you receive an order to
22 report somewhere?
23 A. Yes. On the 11th, in the afternoon, we received an order to
24 report to the police station with all our combat equipment and to wait
25 there for the rest of the unit to join us.
1 Q. Do you recall how you received that order?
2 A. I don't recall exactly. I think that one of my colleagues
3 conveyed it to me. I don't know whether I was at home or in the street.
4 I don't remember exactly.
5 Q. And what if anything were you told about what the purpose of
6 reporting to the police station was?
7 A. Nothing was said. The only thing that was said is that we should
8 wait for the rest of the unit to join us.
9 Q. And when you refer to unit, sir, what exactly are you referring
11 A. The 1st Company of the PJP.
12 Q. And, sir, where did you spend the evening of or the night of July
14 A. Upon my arrival to the police station, we stayed there for a
15 while, and then I and a couple of other colleagues went to a neighbourhood
16 at the outskirts of the town because there was a farewell party or a
17 wedding party, I don't know what it was. We stayed there for a while.
18 The duty police officer knew where we were. And when I returned from the
19 feast I remained in the police station. I slept a little bit and I stayed
20 there until the morning.
21 Q. Do you know whether or not the 1st Company, in fact, arrived that
23 A. I heard that they had arrived, but I myself did not see them.
24 Q. So the next day, on July 12th, just tell the Trial Chamber what
25 you did, please.
1 A. In the morning of the 12th, one of my colleagues drove me in an
2 official vehicle to the Yellow Bridge. There, my unit was already there
3 at the Yellow Bridge and I joined them.
4 Q. And what information, if any, did you receive at that time about
5 what was going on in that area of Yellow Bridge and Potocari, and if
6 anything about the assignment that you were about to embark on?
7 A. I did not receive any information. I was a bit late arriving
8 there. Everybody else was already there when I arrived.
9 Q. So what did you do, sir?
10 A. Well, I joined the rest of the unit and we waited to advance
11 further on.
12 Q. Okay. And at some point, did you in fact advance?
13 A. Yes. Before moving on, there was an incident in which a soldier
14 was killed by a mine. We waited for the soldier to be carried away. And
15 then we deployed in a line, in a firing line, and moved towards Potocari.
16 Q. Okay. Just a couple of quick follow-up questions, sir. First,
17 the soldier who was killed, do you know what role or specialty that
18 soldier had who was killed?
19 A. I think he was a member of the Bratunac Brigade, and he was a mine
20 expert or bomb disposal person. I think that's what he was.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you described that you were deployed in a firing line,
22 and I'm just going to ask you to describe what you mean by that first, and
23 what was your task as you were deployed? What were you told that you were
24 to expect, if anything, as you were deployed?
25 A. It was our objective -- well, at the time when I arrived, nothing
1 was said to me, but when we started to deploy, I learned from my
2 colleagues that we would have to search the terrain and to take the
3 right-hand side of the hill, and to go all the way down to Potocari in
4 order to search the terrain, looking for any remaining Muslim army
6 Q. And by this time, sir, had you received any information concerning
7 the advance or success of the VRS with respect to their attack on the
9 A. Well, we didn't hear anything in particular, nothing official at
10 any rate, only what we heard, the rumours that had spread.
11 Q. Okay. And what did you hear, sir?
12 A. Well, at one point we heard that the army had taken Srebrenica and
13 that there were some civilians in Potocari but nothing more than that.
14 Q. Now, as you advanced towards Potocari, sir, was your commander,
15 Mr. Pantic, with the 1st Company as you proceeded?
16 A. Yes. Mr. Pantic was with us all the time.
17 Q. And how about your platoon leader, Mr. Micic?
18 A. He was there too, yes.
19 Q. Do you know how they were communicating with each other, sir?
20 A. They had Motorolas.
21 Q. Do you know from whom Mr. Pantic was receiving his orders?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And how were orders communicated down the line, down the chain of
24 command, during these couple of days, to yourself, for example? How was
25 the information passed on?
1 A. Raso must have transmitted it to platoon commanders and platoon
2 commanders to us.
3 Q. And when you say "Raso", you're referring to Mr. Pantic; is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And before we move on, sir, what is your understanding as to the
7 coordination, if any, between the army and the MUP when a unit such as
8 your PJP unit is deployed into the area of responsibility of the army?
9 A. I think our unit was superior to the troops -- sorry,
11 Q. Okay. Now --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I'd like to have it clear in my mind.
13 MR. THAYER: I can ask a clarification question on that,
14 Your Honour. I'll clean that up just a little bit.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 MR. THAYER: Thank you.
17 Q. Sir, when you say "resubordinated", can you just be a little bit
18 more detailed about what you mean when you say "resubordinated"? What
19 does that mean?
20 A. Well, the army was the one that conducted combat activities and
21 operations. We were just an attachment. We were engaged occasionally as
23 Q. Now, when you began to enter Potocari, was your 1st Company alone
24 or were there other police or army units that entered with you?
25 A. There was one police detachment and there were some troops. I
1 don't know which units.
2 Q. And when you say one police detachment, what are you referring to,
4 A. I mean the detachment of the Special Forces of the police, special
5 units of the police.
6 Q. Are you referring to the Special Police Brigade, sir? And this
7 may be a translation issue.
8 A. Yes, yes, yes.
9 Q. And when you refer to troops, are you referring to just general
10 VRS forces, sir?
11 A. Yes. Members of the army of Republika Srpska.
12 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber, please, what path or route
13 you took as you left from Zuti Most and entered Potocari?
14 A. When we set out from the Yellow Bridge, Zuti Most, we took the
15 left [as interpreted] side along the road to Srebrenica. After covering a
16 certain section, there were no stragglers from the army, there were no
17 civilians, there was no resistance, none at all, so at one point we
18 descended from those hills to the main road to Srebrenica. Somewhere near
19 the UN base.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one, I believe that we need to make one
22 correction for the transcript but maybe my colleague would do it. Here on
23 page 46, line -- end of line 8 and beginning of line 9 he said we took the
24 left side, and I believe that witness said something different.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: What did you say, Witness? Did you say we took the
1 left side or did you say something different?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The right side.
3 MR. THAYER: I thank you my learned friend for that.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
5 MR. THAYER:
6 Q. And just so that there is -- it's absolutely clear on the record,
7 is that the right side with your -- as you're entering Potocari, sir, your
8 right side; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. The right side looking from the main road going to
10 Srebrenica and Potocari.
11 Q. Did you encounter anyone as you were checking the houses and
12 walking through that area before getting to the main road?
13 A. We didn't find anyone, we didn't run into anyone, until we came
14 close to the centre of Potocari.
15 Q. And what did you observe as you neared the centre, sir?
16 A. You mean when we got to that ribboned, cordoned off part of the
17 road where there were UNPROFOR members or you mean earlier?
18 Q. Let me ask you this, sir. Can you describe for the Court whether
19 you encountered any civilians as were you coming down that main road
20 before you reached the yellow tape or the cordoned off part of the road,
21 as you described it?
22 A. Yes. We came across a group of civilians who wanted to cross the
23 road to go to the UN base. We told them not to be afraid, that they were
24 free to pass through, and they did so without any problem, and they
25 entered the UN base.
1 Q. And during this period of time, sir, as you're continuing further
2 down that road, do you remember whether you were accompanied or in the
3 presence of any particular soldiers whose names you can remember? And I
4 will show you some photographs later in your testimony but do you remember
5 the names of anybody at this point without seeing any photographs, of
6 people that you were with, as you were walking through Potocari?
7 A. Members of the army, I remember two of them. There were some more
8 but I don't remember the others.
9 Q. The two soldiers who you just referred to, do you recall their
11 A. There was one Milinkovic and the other one was Radenko Tomic. The
12 first one was Mile Milinkovic or Milan Milinkovic, also known as Like.
13 Q. Sir, you described reaching an area that was cordoned off. What
14 did you see when you got there?
15 A. When I came to that ribbon, the cordon, there were some members of
16 the army, members of the special unit of the police, as well as UNPROFOR
18 Q. And again, sir, this may be a translation issue but when you say
19 special unit of the police, are you referring to the Special Police
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And how do you know that those individuals were from the Special
23 Police Brigade, sir? Or how did you know that at the time?
24 A. On their left sleeve they wore an insignia of the Special Brigade.
25 Q. And with respect to the members of the army, sir, did you have any
1 knowledge as to which brigade they may have belonged to?
2 A. No. I saw later some soldiers that I knew were from the
3 Bratunac Brigade. Others I didn't know.
4 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened after you reached
5 this cordon?
6 A. When I got there to the cordon, we stayed there for a while, for a
7 short while, until General Mladic arrived. When he arrived and got out of
8 the car, he started yelling at us to get away from there. In fact, he was
9 shouting at Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin saying, "What do you need the police
10 here for? We have the army. Get them out of here." So we left that area
11 around the cordon. We went behind a house into an orchard. And that's
12 where we stayed.
13 Q. You mentioned that you saw soldiers, Special Police Brigade
14 members, UNPROFOR. Can you describe the civilians that you saw in this
15 area, sir? What did you see?
16 A. There was a large number of civilians, women, children, the
18 Q. You described going to a house, into an orchard. Do you know
19 where that was located or can you describe where that orchard was located
20 in relation to the UN base and any other features that may have been
22 A. The closest reference point is a factory called Cinkara, the Zinc
23 Factory. Looking from the perimeter of that factory, we were to the right
24 in that orchard.
25 Q. What happened next, sir?
1 A. Well, there is nothing much to say. We just sat around there. I
2 don't know for how long. We got something to eat. A bit later, I got in
3 touch with some neighbours, two female neighbours from Srebrenica.
4 Nothing special happened there.
5 Q. At some point, did you leave the orchard area, sir?
6 A. Yes. At one point I was with a number of other former neighbours
7 who lived in Srebrenica close to me. I talked to them for a while, and
8 then I returned to join the rest of my unit.
9 Q. And where did you go?
10 A. I went to the same orchard where the rest of my colleagues were,
11 and we stayed there until we left Potocari.
12 Q. And how did you learn that it was time to leave Potocari? What
13 was -- what were you told?
14 A. I don't know who exactly brought the message, but somebody said
15 orders had come to leave Potocari and go to Bratunac.
16 Q. And can you estimate at all how much time you spent in this
17 orchard area by the Zinc Factory?
18 A. It's hard to say precisely, maybe an hour, maybe two hours, maybe
19 less. I don't know. I really can't say after all this time.
20 Q. During that period of time, sir, did you become aware that any
21 vehicles were arriving to the base there at Potocari?
22 A. Do you mean the UN base?
23 Q. That's right, the area of the UN base.
24 A. I don't understand the question. Do you mean some vehicles were
25 entering the base or do you mean the transportation vehicles for
2 Q. I understand why I asked a confusing question for you, sir. Did
3 you see any vehicles arrive on that main road in front of the UN base?
4 A. From my vantage point, it was impossible to see whether they were
5 going into the base or not. I don't think anybody was going into the
6 base. I think they made a U-turn there and parked, awaiting the boarding
7 of civilians.
8 Q. And what kind of vehicles were those, sir?
9 A. Mainly buses, with some trucks among them.
10 Q. And how did you leave the area, sir?
11 A. Our bus came to pick us up. We all got into the bus and drove
12 away to Bratunac.
13 Q. And in terms of these buses and trucks that you described, what
14 were you able to see as you were leaving Potocari?
15 A. Nothing special. Vehicles coming, making a U-turn, setting
16 themselves up to receive passengers. There was a crowd. Nothing special.
17 Q. Did you see any soldiers or police deployed along the road near
18 those buses, sir, as you were leaving?
19 A. I can't remember.
20 Q. At any time up to the time you left Potocari, did you see any
21 Muslim men being separated from their families, sir?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you see any Muslim men detained?
24 A. Not while we were there.
25 Q. Did you see any Muslims boarding those buses that you saw on the
1 road, parked on the road?
2 A. No, sir. Before we left, there were perhaps two or three vehicles
3 parked there. At that time nobody was boarding the buses and nobody did
4 until we departed. After that, I suppose some transports started.
5 Q. And where did you go after leaving Potocari, sir?
6 A. From Potocari, we went to Bratunac and stopped by the department
7 store in Bratunac, and stayed there for quite a while awaiting further
9 Q. And what happened next?
10 A. Well, as we were waiting, time was long and some people drifted
11 away. We talked about Zvornik, that it was threatened, that an attack was
12 imminent, that we should go to Zvornik. I didn't receive any information
13 from offices Pantic or Micic. At one point, when orders were given to
14 board the bus again, we did so and we set off towards Zvornik.
15 Q. And then what happened, sir?
16 A. We stopped at a place called Sandici. There were some army troops
17 there and members of the Special Police Brigade who told us that they were
18 occasionally being fired at from the nearby woods, and somebody then
19 ordered, I suppose it was Pantic, that we get out of the bus and deploy
20 along the road.
21 Q. Do you recall whether or not there were any other PJP units there
22 as well when you arrived?
23 A. Just us.
24 Q. And where were you deployed, sir, along that road?
25 A. I was deployed below the pass looking towards Sandici, and that's
1 the area, the small area, that my unit covered.
2 Q. What was your assignment?
3 A. Nothing special. We were just told to stay there and secure the
4 road, and probably, and we didn't even need to be told that, there were
5 Serb villages behind our backs and we were supposed to guard them.
6 Q. And guard them from whom or what, sir?
7 A. From Muslim units.
8 Q. Were you given any information or did you have any idea of where
9 these Muslim units may have been from, sir?
10 A. In Sandici, to the left, above us, hills stretch a long way, and
11 shooting was coming from there. So we knew that Muslim units were there.
12 Q. You described previously that you had information or there was
13 talk about Zvornik being under threat of perhaps an imminent attack. Did
14 you have any idea of what the source of that attack was going to be? What
15 was that threat, from the information or rumours that you were hearing?
16 A. I really don't know.
17 Q. Was there ever any discussion or information amongst yourselves
18 about the Muslim men of the Srebrenica enclave and where they may or may
19 not have been at the time?
20 A. Well, since we were already in Potocari, where there was no Muslim
21 army, it was logical to assume they were around in the woods nearby and
22 that they were trying to reach the territory controlled by the BH army.
23 So we knew they were there somewhere. But precisely where exactly, we
24 didn't know.
25 Q. When you were deployed in this Sandici area, was Mr. Pantic, your
1 commander, there?
2 A. I don't think so. I was the last behind that pass. Most of them
3 stayed near that destroyed house that provided cover. I was the last one
5 Q. Okay. Did you have any information as to whether your commander
6 was in that general section of the communication that you were securing,
7 although he may not have been in your immediate area?
8 A. I think he was there.
9 Q. And when you deployed to your position, sir, did you see any heavy
10 weaponry deployed?
11 A. There were armoured vehicles.
12 Q. Can you describe those armoured vehicles, please, sir?
13 A. Well, one was a Praga vehicle and the other one was a BVP, a
14 combat vehicle with a three-barrel gun mounted on it, and I think the next
15 day a tank joined them as well.
16 Q. And do you know to which unit or to whom the tank and those other
17 mechanised armoured vehicles belonged?
18 A. I don't know exactly. My unit had none of those vehicles. So I
19 assume they belonged either to the Special Police Brigade or to the army.
20 Q. And when you were in the field on previous PJP deployments, do you
21 recall ever seeing the Special Police Brigade detachments or units using
22 such equipment?
23 A. I think yes.
24 Q. Can you just briefly describe for the Trial Chamber, sir, what you
25 did while you were deployed on that section of the road on the 12th of
2 A. Well, we arrived at Sandici in the early evening and we deployed
3 there and we didn't move from those positions until the early morning. It
4 may have been around 4.00 or 5.00 a.m., I don't know exactly. I was
5 already asleep and most of my colleagues were asleep, when I heard this
6 explosion and when the shooting started. I woke up and I opened fire
7 myself, together with my colleagues. We moved to the other side of the
8 road but there was a canal there, a ditch, dug for our protection and when
9 the shooting died out, a truck arrived. I heard that some people had been
10 wounded. I did not take part in their providing first aid and putting
11 them on to this vehicle. I was ordered to go further up to a house that
12 had been destroyed, to guard our right flank, to prevent the Muslim units
13 from infiltrating into our -- or penetrating into our right flank.
14 Q. Do you recall the names of any of your colleagues who were
16 A. I think three police officers from Zvornik were wounded but I
17 don't know their names. The colleague who was -- died, who died, was
18 Zeljko Nikolic [as interpreted], a police officer from our station.
19 Q. Sir, I note that the transcript indicates that the name of your
20 colleague who died was Zeljko Nikolic. Is that the correct name, the
21 correct --
22 A. Zeljko Ninkovic.
23 Q. Just a couple of questions about the 12th of July, sir, before we
24 move on to the next day. From the time you were first deployed in the
25 Sandici area until those early morning hours of the next day, when you
1 heard the explosions, did you see any Muslims surrendering or being
2 captured in your immediate area?
3 A. Not on that day.
4 Q. While you were deployed along the road that day, did you see any
5 Muslims at all?
6 A. Just civilians who were being moved under UNPROFOR escort.
7 Q. And when you say under UNPROFOR escort, sir, what leads you to
8 identify UNPROFOR as escorting?
9 A. Well, there -- they had vehicles that were visibly marked and they
10 wore uniforms that were unlike the uniforms worn by our forces, so that's
11 how we knew they were United Nations troops.
12 Q. Now, we are on the early morning hours of 13 July, sir. You
13 described moving to a destroyed house after the attack. What did you do
14 from that point on that day?
15 A. Well, on my arrival to this house, there were two or three of my
16 colleagues with me, I don't remember exactly. I found an old door and I
17 lay down and went back to sleep. And then in the morning, I don't know
18 when exactly it was, I woke up, maybe because of gunshot. I woke up and I
19 looked out of the house. My colleagues were down on the road below that
20 pass. They were having breakfast and I joined them. And I learned from
21 them that this colleague of ours succumbed to his wounds.
22 Q. So what did you do next?
23 A. Well, after we had breakfast, we stayed there waiting for our
24 commander, Mr. Pantic, to approve our departure to Bratunac because we
25 wanted to organise the funeral for our colleague, for our dead colleague,
2 Q. And did you, in fact, see Mr. Pantic in person about that, sir?
3 A. Well, I didn't see him personally. I didn't speak to him. Our
4 platoon commander did that, Micic, and when we were given the approval, we
5 left Sandici.
6 Q. During that morning, sir, did you move your position at all along
7 the road, in that time while you were waiting for Mr. Pantic?
8 A. Well, most of the time I was there I spent down there where I was
9 deployed, but at one point, just before we left, I was up there at this
10 destroyed house.
11 Q. And is that another destroyed house other than the one that you
12 had spent part of that night in, the night of the 12th?
13 A. Yes. It's a different house.
14 Q. And can you describe for the Trial Chamber what, if anything, you
15 observed occurring in that area of that other destroyed house?
16 A. Well, while I was down there below this pass, I saw a few persons
17 coming down from the woods passing by that house, and they went up to a
18 meadow and they were probably instructed to sit down there because that's
19 what they did. They sat down there.
20 Q. And was this meadow on the same side of the road as this other
21 destroyed house or was it on the other side?
22 A. It was opposite the destroyed house.
23 Q. Do you recall approximately what time of day it was when you left
24 the Sandici area?
25 A. I think it was in the morning, but I can't give you the exact
2 Q. And what did you do once you were in Bratunac, just generally
4 A. Well, when we arrived in Bratunac, we went to see
5 Zeljko Ninkovic's parents. We expressed our condolences and we discussed
6 the organisation of the funeral. So we spent the entire day there,
7 assisting to organise the funeral and things like that.
8 Q. Did you ever receive any information or ever become aware that
9 prisoners, Muslim prisoners, were being held in Bratunac on the night of
10 the 13th of July?
11 A. Well, I did hear, but this is not what I saw. After the funeral,
12 after everything was over and when those civilians or whoever were no
13 longer there, this is when I learned that they had been brought there and
14 that they had been there.
15 Q. And how many days did you spend in Bratunac in connection with
16 arranging for the funeral of Mr. Ninkovic?
17 A. On that day, when we returned from Sandici, the whole day and late
18 into the night, I may even have spent the entire night because it is our
19 custom to sit by the casket. I may have stayed there the entire night,
20 and then the whole day, the next day, until the funeral. So we didn't do
21 anything else. We only were there doing those things connected to the
23 Q. And did you receive any orders with respect to your PJP duties,
24 while you were in that area, in terms of where you were supposed to be
25 deployed next?
1 A. Nothing. There were no orders for our deployment. Later on,
2 after the funeral, the next day, I reported to the police station, I
3 think, to be deployed to my regular duties.
4 Q. Did you ever become aware that PJP units had been deployed to the
5 area of Baljkovica?
6 A. Yes. My unit went there. I don't know what date that was. That
7 may have been the day after the funeral. They went to the Baljkovica
8 sector. That's a position near Zvornik. But I did not go there because I
9 was allowed to go to Srebrenica to see my apartment where I had lived
10 before. And that's what I did.
11 Q. And to the best of your recollection, sir, do you recall what date
12 it was that your unit was actually deployed to the area of Baljkovica?
13 A. Well, it may have been the 15th. I'm not sure.
14 Q. Okay, sir. What I'd like to do now is show you some photographs
15 which you've seen on prior occasions.
16 MR. THAYER: For the record, these are still photographs taken
17 from 65 ter 2047 which can also be found in 65 ter 1936, which is our book
18 of video stills. I believe all the parties have been furnished with my
19 list which identifies these photographs by ERN, chapter and page number of
20 the still book, and time on the video.
21 Q. Sir, you'll see the images popping up on your computer screen
22 momentarily and I'm just going to ask you to see if you can identify some
23 people in them. May we have 4832, please? Do you see an image on your
24 screen, sir?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. For the record, this is ERN 0216-4832. Do you see anyone you
2 recognise in this photograph?
3 A. On the right-hand side, that's Tomic, Radenko Tomic, if I'm not
4 mistaken, nicknamed Gargija. And seen from the back is our commander,
5 Micic. And I think that here on the left-hand side, that's me.
6 Q. Okay. Just for some clarification, the individual whom you
7 identified as Mr. Tomic, is he the one to the furthest right of the
8 photograph, sir?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And can you identify with any more precision the individual you've
11 identified as your platoon commander? Is there anything he's wearing or
12 carrying or anything about his appearance or if you can identify which
13 number he would be moving from right to left in the photograph?
14 A. The first one next to Tomic, that's him. I know Micic personally,
15 and I'm quite sure that that's him. And I'm right next to him.
16 Q. Okay. There is an individual to the left of Mr. Micic who appears
17 to be wearing a helmet and then there is a person to the left of that
18 individual without a helmet. Which individual are you identifying as
19 yourself, sir?
20 A. Right next to Micic, the person without the helmet.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Can't we use the gadget or whatever we have?
22 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's easier.
24 MR. THAYER: We'll do that, then.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: It eliminates any doubts in the future.
1 Incidentally, we've got three minutes before the break.
2 MR. THAYER: If we may, Your Honour, I think we have to mark it
3 before the break. So with Madam Usher's assistance -- oh, this is on
4 Sanction? This is being run on Sanction, Your Honour, so unfortunately we
5 have --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we have a still copy of it?
7 MR. THAYER: You mean in hard copy, Mr. President?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
9 MR. THAYER: Yes, we do. I have them with me.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have one you can spare that he can mark, then
11 I think we'll most faster and more practical.
12 MR. THAYER: I think we can use the break, Your Honour, to see if
13 there are some other alternatives as well even that might save time.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we'll have a 25-minute break starting
16 from now. Thank you.
17 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
20 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Just to fill in everybody
21 where we stand on the technology issue, the images on e-court currently
22 are being used through Sanction so we can't mark it with the magic pen.
23 The e-court version unfortunately shows identifying information on the
24 image because it's made from the stills book so we can't use that. So
25 what we will do is display the original photograph on ELMO and I will
1 identify each photograph by ERN. On our exhibit tender list, and I think
2 this also already corresponds with the exhibit list that's been
3 distributed to all parties, we have identified the ERN, the chapter page
4 number and the time on the video so there shouldn't be any ambiguity about
5 the image that we are looking at and I'll move on.
6 Q. Sir, asking you to look at the photograph which is marked as
7 0216-4832 on the back. Would you just place the initials RT above the
8 individual you identified as Mr. Tomic?
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And if you would write Mr. Micic's initials above his head,
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And your initials above your head, please?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And if you would just place your initials in the upper left-hand
16 corner of the photograph, please?
17 A. [Marks]
18 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if we may dispense with placing the
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Provided he signs it or puts his initials, that's
22 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. If you would just place your initials in the upper left-hand
24 corner of the photograph, please, thank you, sir.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Now, I'd ask you to just pull that away and we'll look at the
2 photograph underneath. Do you see anyone you recognise in this
3 photograph, sir?
4 A. Milinkovic, also known as Like, I believe his first name is Milan.
5 Q. Would you just place his initials next to him perhaps up near his
6 head where you -- it might be easier to see the initials.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And how is it that you know or are familiar with this
9 Mr. Milinkovic, sir?
10 A. Milinkovic was born and bred in Srebrenica. We lived there
11 together for a part of our childhood. We grew up together.
12 Q. And, sir, same question with respect to Mr. Tomic, whom we just
13 saw a moment ago. How is it that you know him?
14 A. Well, he was in Srebrenica every day. I knew him from before, and
15 I knew him at the time.
16 Q. Okay. I'd ask you just to remove that photograph and we'll move
17 to the next one, please. You can just pull that right off the stack.
18 Great. Thank you, sir.
19 To save some time, let's just move to the next one and I'm going
20 to ask you a question about the next, if you would, you can remove that
21 photograph and just place it next to you there. There we go.
22 Sir, do you recognise anyone in this photograph, which is
24 A. The man in the uniform could possibly be one of our colleagues but
25 I can't be sure.
1 Q. And when you say, "one of our colleagues," who are you referring
3 A. I mean a colleague from Vlasenica but I'm not sure. It's a
5 Q. And was he a colleague -- if this is the person you're referring
6 to, is this somebody from the 1st Company?
7 A. Yes, the 1st Company.
8 Q. And you said, "possibility". How certain or uncertain are you
9 that this is this individual?
10 A. 50/50 maybe.
11 Q. If you would just flip that photograph over and go to the next
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise for interrupting but my learned
15 colleague promised us ERN numbers for these photographs. We missed these
16 first two ERN numbers.
17 MR. THAYER: I'm sorry. I thought I read that. The photograph of
18 the other individual that we just spoke about is 0216-4835. We are now
19 looking at 0216-4836.
20 Q. Do you recognise anyone in this photograph, sir?
21 A. Yes, that's me.
22 Q. And if you would flip that over, sir? Go to the next photograph.
23 This is 0216-4846. Do you recognise anyone in this photograph?
24 A. I think it's the personal driver of Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin. I
25 think his name was Nedjo. I don't know his last name.
1 Q. All right. And if you would -- just for the record, this is the
2 individual handing out the candy bar; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, if you would turn that photograph over and we'll move to the
5 next photograph. This is 0216-4862. Do you recognise anyone in this
6 still, sir?
7 A. I know them by sight, both of them. I think this one is called
8 Vuksic and the other one, I can't recall at this moment but I know him. I
9 think -- I think his last name is Radic.
10 Q. And would you just place a V next to Mr. Vuksic, perhaps in the
11 light-coloured area? Right there, that's perfect, sir.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And just an R on the shirt, if you can?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. That's really not coming out. Might have a dead pen or it may be
16 the photograph.
17 A. [Marks]
18 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Madam Usher.
19 Q. And if you would just move along, flip that photograph over, do
20 you recognise anyone in this photograph, sir? This is 0216-4865.
21 A. Milovanovic -- no, sorry, not Milovanovic. The name eludes me at
22 the moment. Mitrovic, Mitrovic is the last name. I think his first name
23 is Milovan, I'm not sure but I think it's Milovan.
24 Q. And you're placing two Ms above that person?
25 A. [Marks] I think so. I think that's it.
1 Q. And how is it that you know or recognise this individual?
2 A. He was part of the military police, and going about my police
3 business in Bratunac I used to run into this man.
4 Q. And you said military police. With which brigade or other unit,
6 A. The Bratunac Brigade military police.
7 Q. And if you would just flip that photograph over, sir, and we'll
8 move on to the next one. Do you recognise anyone in this still, sir?
9 A. This photograph is a bit blurry, but this than reminds me of a
10 policeman from Skelani who belonged to the Special Police Brigade.
11 Q. And do you know that person's name or nickname, sir?
12 A. Just a nickname, Cop.
13 Q. And this Cop, did this Cop belong to any particular unit of the
14 Special Police Brigade?
15 A. Yes. The Special Police Brigade.
16 Q. But within the Special Police Brigade, did he belong to any
17 particular unit or subunit of the brigade?
18 A. I think he was from the Sekovici Detachment.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing I wanted to -- point I wanted to make was
22 the following: This same photo exists on Sanction. I can see it from
23 here. The photo on Sanction is much clearer, much more focused than the
24 photo that the witness is looking at at the moment, and he has sort of
25 pointed or remarked that it is rather blurred. So if we could show him on
1 the screen the photo on Sanction, it is 0216-4735 -- 4735 or 4785.
2 MR. THAYER: 4735, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: 4735, yeah. I think he can then confirm to us
4 whether he is actually sure about the recognition of this person, Cop.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the same with both pictures. I
6 cannot be 100 per cent sure it's Cop but I think it is.
7 MR. THAYER:
8 Q. And since we are talking about percentages, I may as well ask you,
9 sir, if you had to place a percentage on your certainty, what would it be
10 that this is Cop?
11 A. 70/30.
12 Q. Okay. If we could move along and just flip that photograph over,
13 please, sir? Do you recognise anyone in this photograph? And this is
15 A. Yes. This is a colleague from Milici, whose name I don't know.
16 Q. And when you say he's a colleague from Milici, is he a 1st Company
17 PJP officer, sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And when you say he's from Milici, do you mean that he is also a
20 police officer from Milici?
21 A. Yes. He belonged to the Milici police station.
22 Q. And just for the record you're identifying the man with an
23 automatic rifle over his shoulder; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And if we could flip over the next photograph, to the next
1 photograph, please? This is 0216-4738. Do you recognise anyone in this
3 A. On the left, that's another colleague of mine from the
4 1st Company. He was from the Skelani station. I don't know his name. He
5 was called by the nickname Dugi. And that's his brother with the same
6 nickname, Dugi. He belonged to the Special Police unit.
7 Q. And if you would just flip that over, please? And we'll move to
8 the next photograph. This is 0216-4742. Do you recognise the area that
9 is depicted in this photograph, sir?
10 A. I cannot say with any certainty, but the likelihood is high that
11 this is the Sandici area.
12 Q. Well, let's move to the next photograph. And let's move to the
13 next photograph over that, sir. 0216-4757. Do you recognise the
14 individual with the black headband, sir?
15 A. Yes. It's a member of the 1st Company, a policeman from Skelani.
16 I think his last name is Vasic. I don't know about the first name.
17 Q. All right. Let's move to the next photograph. We can save
18 sometime and move along to the next photograph after that, sir. This is
19 0216-4759. Do you recognise this individual, sir? 4760.
20 A. Yes. He was a member of the 1st Company and worked at the police
21 station in Zvornik. I don't know his name.
22 Q. If you could just turn that photograph over please, sir and read
23 the number on the back, make sure the record is clear?
24 A. The number?
25 Q. Yes, please, just read it out loud?
1 A. 0216-4760.
2 Q. Thank you, sir. We are looking at 0216-4771. Do you recognise
3 anyone in this photograph?
4 A. Yes. It's a policeman called Krstic, member of the 1st Company,
5 from the Milici police station.
6 Q. And you're indicating the individual to the most right on the
7 photograph; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, on the right, next to the civilian.
9 Q. Okay. Moving along, if you would flip to the next photograph,
10 please? This is 0216-4772. Do you recognise anyone in this photograph,
12 A. I think they are also members of the 1st Company from the Milici
13 police station. I don't know their names or nicknames.
14 Q. And these are the individuals on either side of the man in the
15 foreground in the light-coloured shirt, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. If we could flip to the next photograph, please?
19 A. It's a policeman from Zvornik, but I don't know his name.
20 Q. Was he also a 1st Company PJP member, sir?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is this the man in the mustache to the right of the image?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. If you would flip the photograph, please? 0216-4784. Do
25 you recognise this individual?
1 A. Yes. It's a member of the 1st Company, who was from the Vlasenica
2 police station.
3 Q. And if you would just flip that over, please, that photograph?
4 This is 0216-4877. Do you recognise anyone in this photograph?
5 A. I know both of them. The one above, with the sunglasses and a
6 cigarette, is Goran Zekic. And the other one is Milosavljevic. His
7 nickname was Giga, but I'm not sure about the first name.
8 Q. And how is it that you recognise or know these two individuals,
10 A. Well, I see them every day or almost every day in Srebrenica and I
11 know them quite well.
12 Q. And do you know what military unit they belonged to at the time?
13 A. I think they belonged to the 3rd Battalion of the
14 Bratunac Brigade.
15 Q. All right. And just flip the photograph over, please. This is
16 0216-4878. Do you recognise anyone in this photograph?
17 A. Yes. I know this man smoking a cigarette. That's
18 Milomir Tanasijevic.
19 Q. There appear to be a couple of men with cigarettes. Are you
20 describing the man who is directly facing the camera, sir?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. And how is it that you know this individual?
23 A. He's a neighbour of mine. We live in the same building.
24 Q. And do you know what unit he was serving in at the time of this
1 A. I think he was also in the 3rd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.
2 Q. Now, sir, I may have neglected to ask you this earlier. The
3 individual that you identified as Like Milinkovic, do you know what
4 military or army unit he belonged to?
5 A. Well, how should I put it? He switched units. I'm not sure. He
6 was in the Panthers unit and then he was in the Bratunac Brigade. I'm not
7 sure at the time when these photographs were taken whether he was in the
8 Panthers at that time or in the Bratunac Brigade, I'm not sure.
9 Q. How about Mr. Tomic?
10 A. Tomic, the same.
11 MR. THAYER: If we may have P02478 on e-court, please.
12 Q. Sir, do you see an image on your screen?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Please take a couple of moments to orient yourself. I know you
15 looked at this with me during your proofing but it was a little bigger so
16 if you need a couple of seconds to take a good, hard look at it,
17 familiarise yourself with it, please do so.
18 A. It's fine.
19 Q. Okay. If you would take the pen that's attached to your computer
20 with the assistance of Madam Usher, I'm going to ask you to mark first of
21 all the route that you took as you entered Potocari.
22 A. That's the main road here. [Marks] Should I continue?
23 Q. If you just turn that into an arrow, I think that will be
24 sufficient, sir.
25 A. [Marks] I can't do it.
1 Q. Now, you were shown and identified yourself in a photograph
2 earlier speaking to a woman. Would you just mark with a circle where that
3 location was?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And would you please mark with an X the area which you identified
6 as the orchard where you say you spent some time that day on the 12th of
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. All right. If you would just write your initials on the lower
10 left-hand -- right-hand corner and today's date, please, sir?
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And we can save it once you're done. And then we'll move on to
13 the last exhibit, sir.
14 MR. THAYER: And as soon as it's saved if we could have P02103,
15 please? And that's page 40. If we can zoom in a little, please? That's
17 Q. Sir, do you see the image on your screen?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I want you to just take a couple moments and orient yourself.
20 A. It's okay. It's okay. We can move on.
21 Q. Okay. Sir, you described a location where you were posted on the
22 evening of 12 July, prior to the explosion that you heard. Can you just
23 mark that location with a number 1, please?
24 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Madam Usher.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. The location where I
1 was before the explosion or when the explosion occurred?
2 MR. THAYER:
3 Q. That's correct.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Okay. You've indicated with an X. Now, you described moving to
6 an abandoned house immediately after that. Can you just mark that area
7 with a number 1, please?
8 A. I'm not sure if it's this house or that house, but that would be,
9 I think, this one here. [Marks]
10 Q. Okay. You also testified about another destroyed house that you
11 saw when you moved your position the next morning. Can you just write a
12 number 2 next to that house, sir?
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And would you mark with a number 3 the area which you described as
15 a meadow where you saw the prisoners heading that same morning?
16 A. Did you say a number 3?
17 Q. Yes, please.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Okay. If you would just place your initials in the lower
20 right-hand corner and today's date, please?
21 A. [Marks]
22 MR. THAYER: Thank you. We can save it now and we'll be done with
23 this exhibit.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness has put July instead of
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
2 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Now, sir, as my colleagues know, you were interviewed by the OTP,
4 by the RS commission in, I think, 2004, and more recently by the
5 authorities in Sarajevo, just a couple of weeks ago.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did anyone ever ask you for a report? For example, did Mr. Pantic
8 ever ask you for a report concerning the actions of you or your company in
9 Potocari or along the road in July of 1995?
10 A. No. You mean from me personally? Did he ask for any report?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. No. I never reported -- wrote any reports about any combat
13 activities, and I really don't know if anyone actually did so.
14 Q. Well, did anyone ever ask you? Did Mr. Pantic ever ask you for a
15 report, sir?
16 A. No, no reports.
17 Q. To your knowledge, were any 1st Company PJP members ever
18 disciplined by the RS MUP in connection with their deployment to Potocari
19 and that road segment in July of 1995?
20 A. I really don't know about that.
21 Q. Well, are you aware of any investigation ever being initiated by
22 the RS MUP concerning the deployment of the PJP units or the Special
23 Police Brigade units to those areas in July 1995? I'm not talking about
24 the RS commission.
25 A. I don't know about that. I really don't.
1 Q. Okay. Sir. I thank you for your time. I have no further
3 A. You're welcome.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is going first? We need about three minutes at
5 the end for our decision. Yes, Mr. Stojanovic? Could you kindly
6 introduce yourself with the witness, please?
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good evening, Your Honours.
8 Before I introduce myself to the witness, I would like to ask for one
9 thing. We indicated we would need one hour to ask this witness, but in
10 light of the examination-in-chief today, I would like to consult my client
11 for just one minute. I believe that our examination might be
12 substantially shorter. Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means, Mr. Stojanovic. And if you want to
14 consult him in private, I think that can be arranged, too.
15 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
18 Q. Mr. Stanojevic, my name is Miodrag Stojanovic and I'm here
19 representing Mr. Borovcanin, as his Defence counsel, and I believe that we
20 will be able to go through your cross-examination fairly quickly. Would
21 you agree with me that in July 1995, at the level of the public security
22 centre in Zvornik, that a total of six companies of the PJP were set up
23 and they were, in fact, a PJP Battalion, they formed a PJP battalion?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This PJP battalion was under the command of the Zvornik public
1 security centre; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And this battalion comprised your company, the 1st PJP company,
4 which I would posit was composed of mostly younger police officers from
5 the police stations that were part of the Zvornik public security centre;
6 is that so?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you please tell us, in July 1995, to the best of your
9 knowledge, how many people were there in the 1st PJP company?
10 A. Well, maybe about 60 people.
11 Q. And they were divided into three platoons; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You described how and why you were engaged in action, and I wanted
14 to ask you if at times you went to different areas and sometimes even with
15 the Special Police Brigade units?
16 A. Yes, that is correct. We often went into the field together.
17 Q. In those joint combat groups, if I may call them that, the
18 commander of such a combat group would be somebody from the Special Police
19 Brigade; is that so?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now I would like to move on to your activities in July. You said
22 that on the 12th of July, in the morning, you were tasked with going to an
23 area in front of the Yellow Bridge and UN check-point from the direction
24 of Bratunac, that would be to the right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. To search the terrain in the direction of the village of
2 Gornji Potocari; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You described the death of a mine layer, do you remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You will agree with me that this mine layer, who was a member of
7 the Bratunac Brigade, that he was killed as he was trying to open the
8 passage through the minefield that you were supposed to use on your way to
9 search the terrain; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you by any chance know the name of this mine layer or bomb
12 disposal person who died that morning?
13 A. No. I don't know his name. I knew him by sight. I think he was
14 from Sase but I don't know anything else.
15 Q. You said that during the search of this terrain, to the right of
16 the road, you did not encounter any troops of the BH army or any
17 civilians; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you have any specific orders as to what to do if you
20 encountered any civilians?
21 A. No. We didn't get any orders, but there were commanders there
22 with us and we could ask them about any procedure that we were to apply if
23 we encountered anyone. But we didn't encounter any troops or any
24 civilians until we arrived at the UN base, which is where we encountered
25 the first civilians.
1 Q. Could you please tell us if you had any specific tasks regarding
2 the disarming of the United Nations troops or any attacks on to the UN
3 check-point at Yellow Bridge?
4 A. Yes. I'm sure that we didn't have any such tasks because my unit
5 did not take part in it.
6 Q. Could you please tell us how long did it take you to carry out
7 this task, to search the terrain, before you came back to this road
8 leading to Potocari?
9 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly but it may have been an hour or two
11 Q. Would I be right if I said that you practically went all the way
12 down to the road at around 9.00 or between 9.00 and 10.00 a.m.?
13 A. Well, I can't be specific but I think that this would be the
14 approximate time because I can't really orient myself in time. I can't
15 confirm that for you with 100 per cent certainty, but it's possible, you
16 may be right.
17 Q. You know this area well, I conclude that on the basis of your
18 ability to recognise things?
19 A. Well, yes, this is where I was born and I do know it quite well.
20 Q. On this map, your village, Zalazje, is maybe about five kilometres
21 away from the UN base, am I correct in stating that?
22 A. Yes. Maybe even a little bit less than five kilometres but that
23 would be the approximate distance, five kilometres.
24 Q. Where were you when the war broke out? Were you in Srebrenica or
25 in the village?
1 A. I was in Srebrenica, in my apartment, and then under pressure we
2 were forced to leave Srebrenica and I went to my village. I stayed there
3 for a while. I saw that it was not safe. And I went to Bratunac while my
4 relatives and my friends, my neighbours, remained in the village until it
5 was attacked by the Muslim units and burnt down.
6 Q. If I understand you correctly, until the 15th of July 1995, you
7 actually were not able to see your home, your apartment?
8 A. Yes. I was not able to do so.
9 Q. I would like, Your Honours, perhaps this is a good time for us to
10 go back to Sanction, to revisit photograph ERN number 0216-4862. I would
11 like to ask one more question about this photograph because I think that
12 my learned colleague, Mr. Thayer, really did ask all the proper questions
13 but while we are waiting for this photograph, Mr. Stanojevic, you told us
14 that you were able to recognise quite a few units and formations of the
15 army in Potocari.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You were able to recognise some elements of the Bratunac Brigade
18 in Potocari; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this your last question, Mr. Stojanovic? Or do
21 you have further questions?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will just ask one
23 more question about this photograph and I would be done with the questions
24 for today, and we may have another 15 minutes at the most. Thank you very
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go through this photo quickly.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Stanojevic, my last question for today is you were able to
4 recognise these two men on these photographs, you told us their last
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you please tell us, in July 1995, which unit did these two
8 men belong to?
9 A. They were soldiers of the Bratunac Brigade. I don't know their
10 battalion but I do know that they were soldiers of the Bratunac Brigade.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So I will not have any more
13 questions for today.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
15 Mr. Stanojevic, we'll continue tomorrow in the afternoon and in
16 the meantime between today and tomorrow do not allow anyone to discuss
17 with you the subject matter of your testimony.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Now, number 1, tomorrow, we are just
20 putting you on notice so that you will be able to regulate your evidence
21 accordingly, tomorrow, we'll need to finish early. And that will be
22 between 6 and 6.15 in the afternoon. All right? So you are given advance
23 notice of that.
24 Now we come to the decision that we promised you.
25 This is the decision that we have arising out of the issue raised
1 by Mr. Bourgon. At issue is -- and others -- is whether the testimony of
2 Witness PW-128 should be postponed in the light of new information
3 provided by him during his proofing session on Sunday of this week, a few
4 days before his scheduled testimony. Because of the objection of counsel
5 for the Defence of Mr. Nikolic, the Trial Chamber has decided not to have
6 regard to the relevant document sheet, which purportedly describes the new
7 information provided.
8 It is almost inevitable, and this will, we feel we need to drive
9 home, that in the course of a trial, especially a lengthy one like this
10 one, a witness may disclose new information in some instances, even in the
11 course of his or her testimony. This, in and of itself, however does not
12 justify postponement of that testimony. Additional investigations may of
13 course become necessary, may take place, and further questions may well be
14 justified as a result of new information gathered. However, these can be
15 addressed by recalling the witness at a later date, while still allowing
16 his or her direct examination and cross-examination to proceed as
18 We believe this to be the proper course of action in relation to
19 PW-128 and we therefore are denying the motion for postponement with the
20 understanding that any of the Defence teams can make an application later
21 on to recall this particular witness, if this becomes necessary.
22 We would, however, like to highlight one further issue. The
23 Trial Chamber is concerned by the time being lost on submissions as to
24 whether prior statements and proofing notes should be available to it, in
25 particular instances. More disquieting is the belief that some of you
1 have indicated you have that whether the Trial Chamber has access or not
2 to such documents depends on your consent or permission. All this arises
3 because, differently from other Trial Chambers, this Chamber has taken a
4 somewhat unique position not to receive such material generally. We are,
5 however, actively considering what steps would be best to take in the
6 interests of justice which would also avoid unnecessary consumption of
7 time in proceedings.
8 We stand adjourned until tomorrow at 2.15.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of
11 June, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.