1 Monday, 9 July 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam Registrar. And good
6 morning, everybody. Could you kindly call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. For the record all the accused are
10 present. From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Ostojic and
11 Mr. Bourgon. I think that's about it.
12 From the Prosecution, I notice the presence of Mr. McCloskey and
13 Mr. Thayer.
14 All right. I understand that you have some preliminaries that you
15 wish to discuss, debate, or raise. We were informed in the first place
16 that you asked, I don't know who, asked for further submissions on the
17 Borovcanin -- yes, Mr. McCloskey?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, good morning. Mr. Lazarevic and I
19 have been discussing the matter and we are going to -- planning on to
20 talking after court today, and we'll get back to you as soon as we can.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
22 Let me go through some preliminaries myself. It seems that you
23 are encountering problems, Mr. McCloskey, to bring in a witness on the
24 11th and on the 12th. Is that still the position?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, it is, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. In case it remains the position, then we
2 are calling on you, when I say you, it's both sides, of course, to prepare
3 yourselves for oral submissions during Wednesday -- the sitting of
4 Wednesday, the 11th, relating to the issue that you raised, the
5 Prosecution, in other words, namely relating to the question as to whether
6 you have the right to -- or should be allowed to interview prospective
7 Defence witnesses. So it's not something new to this Tribunal. It has
8 been debated and decided upon on a few occasions, including by myself. So
9 but of course, circumstances vary from case to case and from witness to
10 witness, and we would be ready to hear your oral submissions this
11 Wednesday at 9.00 in the morning when we sit. That's unless we still have
12 an overflow of -- is it in the afternoon? Okay, sorry. I think it's in
13 the morning but -- anyway, Wednesday -- the Wednesday sitting whatever
14 time it is, unless of course we still have evidence spilling over to that
15 day, in which case first we'll finish the evidence and then we have the
16 submissions. Without -- if it is not possible to have the submissions on
17 the 11th, we will have them on the 12th. All right?
18 There is a motion by the Prosecution for leave to amend the 65 ter
19 exhibit list with 18 exhibits pertaining to Alistair Graham. This was
20 filed on the 6th of July. According to the information that we've -- that
21 has been provided to us, this gentleman is due to testify on the 18th of
22 July. That's pretty near. So we are fixing a time limit on the Defence
23 to file their response. This will be due by not later than the end of
24 business on Thursday, 12th July. All right?
25 Then there is this confidential Defence motion on behalf of
1 Drago Nikolic which has been joined now by others, requesting the Trial
2 Chamber to order the Prosecution to urgently disclose all Rule 68 material
3 related to witnesses PW 108 and PW 102. As I said, this was joined by the
4 Defence team of Ljubisa Beara. We are telling you what -- because we are
5 not exactly digesting well this kind of procedure, so we are not going to
6 mince words on it. Disclosure obligations are provided or -- and
7 articulated by the rules. They are clear for everyone, and each party
8 should know what its disclosure obligations are, and it's not for the
9 Trial Chamber to be seized with motions to tell the other party what its
10 obligations are. So since Witness PW-108 is due to testify on the 17th of
11 July, and this is pretty near, we are proposing that you, Mr. McCloskey,
12 inform the Nikolic and Beara teams today if the evidence they are seeking
13 falls under Rule 68, and that if it does fall, then that it should be
14 provided by you without the need for a motion. Our position is that a
15 motion would only be required if the application of Rule 68 is contested
16 by the Prosecution. So our position is that the matter can be resolved
17 through a dialogue which we expect you to have today between you,
18 Mr. McCloskey, or someone delegated by you, and the Nikolic and the Beara
19 team. And then you come back to us with the final solution.
20 There is also another motion filed by the Prosecution for leave to
21 amend the 65 ter exhibit list with intercepts or corroborating documents.
22 I would enjoin the Defence teams, if possible, to come back with their
23 response on this by the end of this week, by the end of this week. Thank
25 Any further preliminary matters that you would like to raise?
1 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to clarify while I have all Defence counsel.
3 I think part of the motion you just mentioned, we had cited the Obrenovic
4 and Trkulja statements. We did not -- we are not suggesting that those
5 entire statements would come in as corroborating material but just
6 particular portions where they talk about particular intercepts, and I'm
7 not sure if that was made clear. Some Defence counsel may have thought we
8 were trying to offer the entire statements but we were not.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I went through the list this morning with our
10 Senior Legal Officer. I don't think I got the -- that impression. So the
11 Defence might have got the wrong impression, too.
12 Okay. I think we can bring in the witness. Yes, Mr. Thayer?
13 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your
14 Honours, good morning, everyone. There are no measures being sought for
15 this witness and a caution, I believe, would be in order from the Bench,
16 Mr. President, please.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Pepic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal. You're about to start
22 giving evidence. Before you do so, our rules require to make a solemn
23 declaration that you will be telling us the truth. So please take the
24 text of that solemn declaration, read it out loud and that will be your
25 solemn undertaking with us, which is equivalent of an oath.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: MILENKO PEPIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter].
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Pepic. Please make yourself
6 comfortable. Take a seat.
7 General Pandurevic, are you able to follow the proceedings?
8 THE ACCUSED PANDUREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I just want to make sure because I see that your
10 headphones are not exactly where they should be.
11 Yes, Mr. Pepic. You are going to be asked a number of questions,
12 first by Mr. Thayer for the Prosecution, and then by members of the
13 Defence teams. But before you -- we start with this process, I wish to
14 alert you to a right, procedural right, that you have, which I'll try to
15 explain in lay terms for you to be able to understand better.
16 There may, although I'm not suggesting that there will, there may
17 be some questions put to you which, if you were to answer truthfully,
18 could possibly tend to expose you to criminal proceedings, we call these
19 incriminatory questions. By law, you have a right, when such questions
20 are put to you, to attract our attention, draw our attention, and ask us
21 to exempt you from answering such questions. This is a right that you
22 have to ask. You don't have an absolute right for such exemption. It
23 depends on our discretion. We will evaluate all submissions and then we
24 will come to a conclusion whether to grant you such exemption or whether
25 to force you, compel you, to answer such a question. If, however, we
1 force you to answer such questions, then whatever you state in your answer
2 cannot be used against you in any future proceedings, criminal
3 proceedings, unless you have made a false statement, in which case the
4 proceedings will be for perjury. Then whatever you would have stated will
5 not be covered by this privilege. Is this -- have I put it clear enough
6 for you -- to you or not?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, he's all yours, Mr. Thayer.
9 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
11 Q. Good morning, sir.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Would you state your name for the record, please?
14 A. Milenko Pepic.
15 Q. And how old are you?
16 A. 37.
17 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber where you were born and
19 A. I was born in a place called Pepici, Kladanj municipality,
21 Q. And you identify yourself as a Bosnian Serb; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And how are you currently employed, sir?
24 A. I'm a policeman by occupation. I work in Bratunac, in a centre
25 for dog handling and training.
1 Q. And approximately how long have you been doing that particular
3 A. I have been working there since 2002.
4 Q. And prior to that, what was your employment?
5 A. Before that, I worked at the police station in Zvornik for a year,
6 a year or so, maybe a little more than a year.
7 Q. Sir, I want to ask you some questions about your service history
8 during the war and I'll just summarise it briefly. Please correct me if
9 I've misstated anything or if you feel the need to add anything that I've
10 forgotten, please do so. Essentially, sir, between April of 1992 and
11 March of 1993, you served in the Sekovici Brigade; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You then joined the 2nd Sekovici Detachment of the Republika
14 Srpska MUP Special Police Brigade in March of 1993; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And your detachment was headquartered in the Lovnica hotel in
17 Sekovici, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And is it also correct that you served in the 2nd Sekovici
20 Detachment essentially through the end of the war?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. Now, I want to turn your attention to 1995 and specifically the
23 month of June of that year. Who was the commander of the
24 Sekovici Detachment, and I'll just referred to the 2nd Sekovici Detachment
25 as the Sekovici Detachment from now on, if that's okay. Who was the
1 commander of that detachment in June of 1995?
2 A. Until mid-June 1995, the commander was Milos Stupar.
3 Q. And was he replaced at some point, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. By whom?
6 A. By Rade Cuturic.
7 Q. And was Mr. Cuturic known by a nickname?
8 A. Yes, he was.
9 Q. And what was that nickname, sir?
10 A. His nickname was Oficir.
11 Q. Sir, do you know why Mr. Stupar was replaced?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. When Mr. Stupar was commanding your detachment, who was his
14 immediate superior, sir?
15 A. There was a special commander of the brigade.
16 Q. And when you say "special commander of the brigade," sir, who was
18 A. If I remember correctly, it was Goran Saric.
19 Q. And did Mr. Saric have anybody directly below him, sir, in a
20 command position?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who was that?
23 A. His deputy, and all the other detachment commanders.
24 Q. And what was his deputy's name, sir?
25 A. If I remember well, it was Ljubomir Borovcanin.
1 Q. Well, let me ask you, is there any doubt in your mind as to who
2 the deputy commander of the Special Police Brigade was in June and July of
4 A. No. As far as I can remember, it was Borovcanin.
5 Q. Now, sir, in July of 1995, your detachment was divided into how
6 many platoons?
7 A. There were three platoons.
8 Q. And were they identified by number, sir?
9 A. There was the 1st Platoon, the 2nd Platoon and the 3rd Platoon, of
11 Q. And who led the 1st Platoon?
12 A. As far as I can remember, it was Marko Aleksic.
13 Q. And in June of -- and July of 1995, who led the 2nd Platoon?
14 A. The commander of the 2nd Platoon was Jelenko Lukic.
15 Q. And at some point, was Mr. Lukic incapacitated or taken out of
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Approximately when was that, sir?
19 A. I can't remember, but it was around that time.
20 Q. And was he actually replaced with anyone or did the 2nd Platoon
21 remain without a formal platoon leader?
22 A. In July 1995, is that what you have in mind?
23 Q. Yes, sir.
24 A. No. There was no commander.
25 Q. And, sir, which platoon were you in?
1 A. I was a member of the 2nd Platoon.
2 Q. So with Mr. Lukic out of action, from whom did you and your
3 platoon receive its orders in July of 1995?
4 A. We received orders directly from our detachment commander,
5 Mr. Cuturic.
6 Q. And who was the leader or commander of the 3rd Platoon?
7 A. Cop, Milenko, Cop. Milenko Trifunovic was the commander of that
9 Q. And was the 3rd Platoon known by any other name?
10 A. They were a platoon in Skelani, a forward platoon.
11 Q. So was it also referred to as the Skelani Platoon, sir?
12 A. Yes. That's what we called it.
13 Q. Would you describe, please, the uniforms that you and your
14 detachment wore in July of 1995?
15 A. We had camouflage uniforms.
16 Q. And what was the -- or what were the predominant colours in that
17 camouflage, sir?
18 A. Well, green and a sort of coffee colour.
19 Q. And what was the design of the uniform? By that, I mean was it a
20 two-piece or a one-piece?
21 A. These fatigues were in one piece.
22 Q. And did your detachment wear any emblem or insignia?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And where did you wear it and what did it look like?
25 A. Well, we wore these insignia on our left shoulders, left sleeve.
1 They were black and they had a flag.
2 Q. Now, I want to ask you, sir, you yourself, what kind of equipment
3 did you carry in the field? What kind of equipment and weapons?
4 A. I myself?
5 Q. Yes, sir.
6 A. Well, naturally I had my fatigues, I had a combat jacket, I had an
7 automatic rifle, I had four clips, and two grenades.
8 Q. And what types of mechanised weaponry or vehicles did your
9 detachment have in July of 1995?
10 A. We had a bus, one bus, we had two lorries, one was a 110 lorry,
11 the other 150 lorry. We also had a passenger vehicle, or one or two
12 passenger vehicles. I can't remember exactly.
13 Q. And in terms of mechanised weaponry or armoured vehicles, sir,
14 what did your detachment have at its disposal?
15 A. We had a tank, and we had a Praga.
16 Q. Did you also have a three-barrelled anti-aircraft gun or cannon,
18 A. As far as I can remember, yes, we did.
19 Q. Did your detachment have mortar support, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And finally, how about hand held rockets, zoljas, for example, did
22 members of your detachment carry or use those on operations?
23 A. Well, yes.
24 Q. And, sir, during the war, what was -- just generally, tell the
25 Trial Chamber what the nature of your detachment's assignments was.
1 A. I don't understand.
2 Q. Can you just describe the nature of the activities that you
3 performed when you were deployed in the field? How would you describe
4 just the general nature of what you were doing when you were deployed in
5 the field?
6 A. We were involved in combat activity. We secured the line.
7 Q. Can you give the Trial Chamber just briefly the names of some
8 theatres or battlefields to which you were deployed? No dates, just some
10 A. Well, we were in the Sarajevo battlefield; throughout the
11 Republika Srpska area, we were on Ozren and Majevica.
12 Q. Okay. And during your deployment, sir, which senior Special
13 Brigade, Special Police Brigade, commanders would you see in the field?
14 A. There was Mr. Saric, the commander would come, and
15 Mr. Borovcanin's deputy.
16 Q. Okay. The translation we received, sir, was Mr. Saric would come
17 and Mr. Borovcanin's deputy. Is that correct, that it was
18 Mr. Borovcanin's deputy that would -- you would see in the field? Or
19 would you see Mr. Borovcanin in the field?
20 A. Mr. Borovcanin, the deputy of Mr. Saric.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. I just wanted to clarify that for the record.
22 Okay, sir, I want to turn your attention now to some specific
23 periods in July of 1995. At some point, you were deployed in the Sarajevo
24 area. Can you tell the Trial Chamber more specifically where, what
1 A. We were around Srednje. That's the place.
2 Q. And during that deployment, were all three of your detachments,
3 platoons, deployed there?
4 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
5 Q. And at some point, were you ordered to withdraw from that area?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recall the date on which you received that order?
8 A. I think it was on the 11th of July, in the afternoon.
9 Q. And where did you go, sir?
10 A. We then set off in the direction of Bratunac.
11 Q. And that was, just to be clear, the same day, the 11th of July,
12 that you set out, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what was your final destination and approximately what time
15 did you arrive there?
16 A. From Bratunac, we were sent to the place called Bjelovac. It was
17 quite late. It was after midnight.
18 Q. And during that night, sir, do you recall whether your platoon was
19 the only one there or whether the other detachment platoons arrived as
21 A. The other platoons were up there too.
22 Q. That brings us to the 12th of July, sir. Would you please tell
23 the Trial Chamber what you did that morning?
24 A. Well, that morning we got up, we lingered there for a while, I
25 don't know for how long, and then we were sent off in the direction of
2 Q. And where did you go from there, sir?
3 A. From Bratunac, we were sent towards Potocari.
4 Q. And where did you end up, sir?
5 A. We ended up at a place in front of Potocari, before Potocari, near
6 the Zuti Most or the Yellow Bridge.
7 Q. And when you arrived at Zuti Most, did you see, or do you recall
8 seeing any other MUP, VRS or Dutch army units there?
9 A. I can't remember having seen them around the Zuti Most.
10 Q. And what orders did you receive at Zuti Most?
11 A. Well, if you look towards Potocari from Zuti Most, we were
12 supposed to set out and clear the terrain, comb the terrain.
13 Q. And in what direction did you head, sir, just roughly speaking?
14 A. Well, if you look from Zuti Most in the direction of Potocari, it
15 would be to the right. There was a hill of some sort up there and there
16 were some villages there too.
17 Q. And can you estimate for the Trial Chamber the distance you
18 travelled during your search of the terrain?
19 A. Well, in my assessment, it was over a kilometre. I can't be
21 Q. And as you searched the terrain, sir, were you able to actually
22 get a view of the UN base in Potocari at any time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What were you able to see there?
25 A. I saw a building with a UN base. There were people in front of
2 Q. Were you able to see any civilians gathering at the base, sir?
3 A. It was possible to observe the presence of civilians. There was a
4 large group there.
5 Q. How close did you actually get to the UN base or to the main road
6 which runs in front of it?
7 A. We were in front of the base, to the right, from the Zuti Most.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise, if I my colleague could read out the
10 answer that we received because I believe this is not what the witness
11 said because here it says "we were in front of the base."
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Thayer?
13 MR. THAYER:
14 Q. Sir, did you understand my friend's question? We have your answer
15 as "we were in front of the base to the right from Zuti Most." Is that
16 what you meant to say or did you say something else?
17 A. I wanted to say that from the Zuti Most we set off to the right.
18 We weren't, how should I put it, we weren't next to the UN base.
19 Q. Okay. What were you are told to do in case you encountered anyone
20 during the search of the terrain?
21 A. We didn't encounter anyone during the search.
22 Q. Well, my question was, sir, what were you are told to do in the
23 event that you did encounter anyone, be it a civilian or a military-aged
24 person who was surrendering? What were you told to do with such people?
25 A. Well, to inform our superior officer.
1 Q. And were you directed in such an event to direct those individuals
2 to any particular location, sir?
3 A. Well, first we were to inform the officer and then he would issue
4 further orders.
5 Q. And, sir, what is your recollection as to where such persons, who
6 were encountered during the search, were to be directed or taken?
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that it was already asked and answered.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes [sic], and I think so too --
9 Mr. Thayer, sorry.
10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, it's not that critical an issue, but I
11 don't believe he actually answered the question I asked. I asked a
12 slightly different question as to his understanding of where ultimately
13 these people were going to be taken, whether he was the person that took
14 them there or not. His answer was that his superior was going to do
15 something and issue further orders. I'm just simply asking whether he
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes. Fair enough. Go ahead. Go ahead.
18 MR. THAYER:
19 Q. Sir, again, what was your understanding as to where any
20 individuals who were encountered in the field were going to be sent or
22 A. Well, probably down there, in front of the UN base, as far as I --
23 as far as I knew.
24 Q. And who was giving you these instructions and this information,
1 A. We received instructions from our immediate superior, from the
2 detachment commander.
3 Q. And that was Mr. Cuturic, sir, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And was he present with you during the search of this terrain?
6 A. Well, he was there, as he was actually with us up there, I can't
8 Q. Now, on the occasions where you could see down to the UN base, did
9 you see any Muslim men being separated from their families?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you see any Muslim men being detained?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you see any Muslims at all being boarded on to buses?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you ever see a large number of buses and trucks arrive from
16 the direction of Bratunac?
17 A. As far as I can remember, yes, but that was later.
18 Q. And just to be clear, sir, and your testimony is, you didn't see
19 any Muslims boarding those buses, but you did see some buses from the
20 direction of Bratunac; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, empty buses.
22 Q. How long would you estimate that you spent searching the terrain?
23 A. Well, probably more than an hour, an hour and a half, or two
24 hours. Perhaps even more than that.
25 Q. And at some point I take it you withdrew from that area; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what did you do next?
4 A. We went down to the vicinity of the Zuti Most and we got into our
5 vehicles and we were sent off in the direction of Bratunac.
6 Q. And what were you told your next assignment was going to be, sir?
7 A. Well, we were to set off in the direction of Zvornik, and we were
8 told we would be deployed in the place called Sandici.
9 Q. And what were you are told that you would be doing in this place
10 called Sandici.
11 A. We were to secure the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.
12 Q. Secure the road from whom or from what, sir?
13 A. Well, we were told that there were Muslim forces, that the Muslim
14 army, that the Muslim troops, had set off from the direction of Srebrenica
15 and they were trying to break through in the direction of Tuzla. There
16 was concern because it was thought that the road could be cut off to the
17 place called Sandici.
18 Q. And from whom were you receiving this information and these
20 A. We received orders from Mr. Cuturic, our commander.
21 Q. So where did the bus actually take you?
22 A. As far as I can remember, we arrived in Kravica settlement.
23 Q. So tell the Trial Chamber, please, what happened when you got off
24 the bus.
25 A. When we got off, we set off in the direction of Sandici, and then
1 we started deploying along the road.
2 Q. Do you recall approximately what time of the day this was?
3 A. Well, it was perhaps in the afternoon, as far as I can remember.
4 I can't remember what time it was.
5 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber, please, the order of the
6 platoon deployment, to the best of your recollection, say, from Kravica,
7 moving in the direction of Sandici? Can you just tell the Trial Chamber
8 to the best of your recollection; for example, which platoon was closest
9 to the village of Kravica?
10 A. Well, first came the 2nd Platoon, then the 1st Platoon, and then
11 over there, there was the 3rd Platoon.
12 Q. And just to be clear -- I'm sorry, sir, let me let you finish your
14 A. That's what I remember the deployment to have been.
15 Q. Okay. I just want to clarify one thing. So, sir, is it your
16 testimony, then, that the 3rd Platoon would have been located the closest
17 of your detachment to Konjevic Polje?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you describe at all the location at which you personally were
20 deployed, if there was any feature or structure, and can you tell the
21 Trial Chamber, in your estimation, approximately how far that was from the
22 village of Kravica?
23 A. I was by the road.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the second --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How far it was from Kravica, I can't
1 say, because that's exactly where the confrontation -- that's exactly
2 where the line between Kravica and Sandici lies, these two villages are
3 next to each other.
4 MR. THAYER:
5 Q. Okay. Well, sir, when the bus drove you from the Potocari area
6 that day, before it dropped you off in Kravica, did it pass the warehouse,
7 the Kravica warehouse, also known as the agricultural cooperative?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So do you have any estimation you can give the Trial Chamber for
10 approximately how far from the Kravica warehouse your position was on the
12 A. In my estimate, maybe a kilometre.
13 Q. And do you know who, if anyone, was deployed in front of the
14 Kravica warehouse, along that segment of the road?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Now, going in the other direction, towards Konjevic Polje, can you
17 estimate how far you personally were located from the village of Sandici?
18 A. I said that a moment ago. I was right on the line dividing
19 Sandici village from Kravica village, on a stretch of about a hundred
21 Q. Okay. But can you offer the Court any estimate of how far you
22 actually were from the village of Sandici?
23 A. I don't understand the question.
24 Q. That's all right, sir. I'll move on.
25 Do you recall the names of any colleagues who were deployed near
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Can you share them with the Trial Chamber, please?
4 A. Members of the 2nd Detachment, same as myself, Predrag Celic,
5 Slobodan Stjepanovic, Ljubisa Becarevic, they were the closest to me.
6 Q. And were you aware of or did you become informed about any other
7 police or VRS forces who were also deployed along the road between
8 Kravica, Sandici, towards Konjevic Polje?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Do you recall what that unit or those units were?
11 A. I remember first there was a special unit of the police from the
12 Zvornik centre.
13 Q. And when we speak of a special unit of the police from the Zvornik
14 centre, are we speaking of a PJP unit, as they are sometimes referred to,
15 comprised of municipal policemen?
16 A. Yes, PJP, a Special Police unit.
17 Q. Now, during the time when you were deployed along the road, did
18 you personally see any Muslims surrender?
19 A. From my vantage point, no.
20 Q. Did you see any Muslims at all while you were deployed there along
21 the road?
22 A. You mean those people who were surrendering?
23 Q. Well, I just asked you whether you personally saw anyone
24 surrendering and your answer was "no," so I'm asking you did you see any
25 Muslims at all in the area or passing through the area, be they soldiers
1 or civilians.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber what you saw.
4 A. I saw motorcades of buses carrying civilians towards Konjevic
5 Polje, and further down the road. I don't know where they were taking
6 them. Women, children.
7 Q. And while you were deployed along that road, did you hear any
8 communication from the soldiers on the road to the Muslims in the woods?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What did you hear?
11 A. It was audible over the public address system, Muslims were being
12 called upon to come down from the woods.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Thayer, we are on 12th here, are we not? Just to
14 be clear.
15 MR. THAYER: I can clarify that, Your Honour. I'll just leave it
16 at that. I will clarify that.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 MR. THAYER:
19 Q. Sir, do you recall what day you heard this calling out? Actually
20 let me withdraw that question because -- oh, no, you did answer the
21 question. I see. Do you recall what day it was when you heard this
22 calling out to the Muslims? Was it the 12th, the first day you were
23 there, or was it another day?
24 A. I cannot be sure about the date, but I heard the calling out. I
25 don't remember the date.
1 Q. Can you remember at all any details of what was being said by the
2 soldiers to the Muslims when they were calling them to surrender?
3 A. They were calling out to them to come down, to surrender. I
4 believe the UNPROFOR was mentioned as being there. That's all I can
6 Q. And, sir, while you were deployed along that road, were you ever
7 able to hear a Praga being fired? And if so, can you recall whether it
8 was the first day you were there or another day, or more than one day?
9 A. Yes. That could be heard. I can't remember, maybe the second day
10 we were there.
11 Q. And could you just describe generally from what area did it sound
12 like to you it was being fired from?
13 A. There was shooting, there was shooting, yes. Also to the left of
14 Sandici village, there was sporadic shooting.
15 Q. Okay. So let me just see if I can make this a little simpler.
16 When you were hearing the Pragas being fired, are you saying that it
17 sounded like it was coming from the area of Sandici, sir?
18 A. I didn't say that the Praga was fired. I said one could hear
19 shooting from Sandici downwards towards Konjevic Polje. There was
20 shooting in the forest, where the Muslims were expected to come from.
21 Q. Okay. Well, then let me go back to my initial question on this
22 topic a couple of questions ago, just to make sure I understand you
23 correctly. During your deployment along that road, did you ever hear a
24 Praga being fired?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And can you describe the general area or location -- don't need a
2 specific point, but just the general location or direction in which you
3 heard -- you believe you heard that Praga being fired. For example, was
4 it closer to Kravica or was it in the direction of Konjevic Polje? That's
5 all I'm asking you, sir.
6 A. It was closer to Konjevic Polje.
7 Q. Now, sir, at some point when you were deployed on that road, did
8 Mr. Cuturic come by your position and order you to go somewhere?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would you please describe for the Trial Chamber that encounter
11 with Mr. Cuturic?
12 A. Well, Mr. Cuturic, the commander, came by in his car, in his
13 vehicle, and if I remember correctly, he told us that a large group of
14 Muslims was either expected to surrender or had already surrendered, so we
15 should move and not stand on the road itself so that they can pass
16 through, those who were going from the agricultural cooperative.
17 Q. Okay. Sir, I see that your answer on the transcript ends with
18 referring to "those who were going from the agricultural cooperative."
19 Can you tell the Trial Chamber where Mr. Cuturic told you those Muslim
20 prisoners, who had either surrendered or were expected to surrender, were
21 going to be taken?
22 A. He said that they were about to pass by that road, from the
23 agricultural cooperative on the way to Kravica.
24 Q. Sir -- and I'm looking at my colleagues here -- we may have a
25 translation issue here. And I'll again try to make it as simple as I can.
1 Mr. Cuturic advised you that the roads were going to be kept clear
2 so that a large group of prisoners could be escorted; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. A large group of Muslims who had surrendered or were about
4 to surrender; that bit I can't remember.
5 Q. And from what direction were those Muslims going to be escorted,
7 A. From Sandici towards the agricultural cooperative based in
9 Q. Okay. Now, what was the final destination of these prisoners that
10 Mr. Cuturic told you? Where were they physically going to be taken
11 finally, when he spoke to you at that time? Where were they going to be
13 A. He said they were going to be taken to that agricultural
14 cooperative. I don't remember any more.
15 Q. Okay. I think we've resolved the confusion. Thank you, sir.
16 Now, did Mr. Cuturic, on this occasion, give you any further
17 instructions, you personally?
18 A. Yes. To me personally.
19 Q. And what did he order you to do?
20 A. To come with him in his car, and after that he transferred me to
21 the place called yellow bridge near Kravica, he gave me his Motorola and
22 told me that he would let me know when those Muslims who had surrendered
23 set off so that I can stop the convoy of buses carrying Muslim civilians,
24 women, children, so that the Muslims who had surrendered could pass
25 unhindered from Sandici towards the agricultural cooperative in Kravica.
1 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you a couple of follow-up questions for
2 clarification, sir. The convoy of buses that were carrying the Muslim
3 civilians, from which direction were they travelling, sir?
4 A. They were coming from the direction of Bratunac.
5 Q. And when Mr. Cuturic picked you up in his vehicle and drove you to
6 this location called Yellow Bridge, in what direction were you travelling
7 at that time?
8 A. In the direction of Kravica, in the direction of Bratunac.
9 Q. Okay. Now, just to be clear, we've heard earlier today, and
10 throughout this trial already, references to the Zuti Most, that is above
11 the UN base in Potocari. This Yellow Bridge that you've just referred to
12 in Kravica is a different location; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I understand there are a lot of Yellow Bridges in Bosnia, right?
15 A. Well, yes.
16 Q. Okay. Now, you said that Mr. Cuturic gave you, and it was
17 translated as "his" Motorola. Was it your understanding that he was
18 giving you his personal communication set or was he giving you another one
19 for you to use?
20 A. The second Motorola, yes, another Motorola.
21 Q. And presumably that is how he expected you to communicate with
22 him; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall what your radio call sign was, sir?
25 A. I seem to remember it was GRK, G-R-K.
1 Q. And was that short for anything?
2 A. Doesn't mean anything. It's just a call sign.
3 Q. And do you recall what Mr. Cuturic's call sign was?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did he use?
6 A. Same as his nickname, Oficir.
7 Q. Do you recall any other call signs being used during this period?
8 A. Well, there were some.
9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber any other call signs that you
10 remember being used over the radio during this period of time?
11 A. From what I was able to hear, and from what I remember, there was
12 one call sign Bor, BOR.
13 Q. And to whom did that call sign belong, sir, to the best of your
15 A. Mr. Borovcanin, as far as I know.
16 Q. Now, during this period of time, sir, who else in your detachment
17 had Motorolas? Who was issued them?
18 A. Platoon commanders and the commander, the detachment commander.
19 Q. And from whom was Mr. Cuturic receiving his orders during this
20 period of time?
21 A. I don't know, probably from his superior commander, but I wouldn't
22 know who.
23 Q. Well, sir, based on your service and your experience in the
24 Special Police Brigade, who was in a position to issue Mr. Cuturic orders?
25 A. The brigade commander, the brigade commander's deputy.
1 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I see we're nearing the break. I'm
2 about to enter a new area, if I could suggest we take it a couple minutes
3 early, please.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We can have a 25-minute break now.
5 Thank you.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue.
9 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Good morning again, sir.
11 A. Morning.
12 Q. Just before we broke, you had testified that you were now posted
13 at this area in Kravica known as Yellow Bridge, with a Motorola issued to
14 you by Mr. Cuturic, and that he had told you to await his radio call in
15 order that you would hold up a convoy of civilians from the direction of
17 Did you receive such a further radio call from Mr. Cuturic, sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What did he tell you?
20 A. Well, over the Motorola, he told me to hold up the convoy so that
21 the Muslims who had surrendered to pass through to the agricultural
22 cooperative in Kravica from the direction of Sandici.
23 Q. And did such a convoy arrive, sir? And if so, what did you do?
24 A. The convoy arrived, yes. I came out, I stood in the road, I
25 stopped the first bus, it came to a halt.
1 Q. Sir, after you stopped this bus, this convoy, what do you recall
2 happening next?
3 A. Well, I don't know exactly. It stopped and then from the
4 direction of Sandici, you could hear shooting.
5 Q. Now, sir, you've already described in your testimony earlier today
6 that there was shooting happening in general along this road, sometimes
7 from the woods, sometimes from other locations. Can you tell the Trial
8 Chamber what, if anything, was different about the shooting that you began
9 to hear after you had stopped the convoy of civilians from Bratunac?
10 A. Well, yes, this shooting that could be heard, well, it sounded as
11 if it was closer to Sandici, in the direction of Kravica.
12 Q. Okay. When you say it was closer to Sandici, in the direction of
13 Kravica, does that mean it was closer to your location, sir?
14 A. Yes, closer to Kravica, in relation to Sandici. It was in the
15 direction of Kravica.
16 Q. And what if anything was different about the nature of this
17 shooting that you were now hearing, that sounded like it was closer to
18 Kravica, closer to your location, than the shooting that you had been
19 hearing earlier? Please take your time and answer the question as
20 carefully as you can, sir. What was different about the shooting?
21 A. It was more intense, and how should I put it? It seemed as if
22 fire was being opened from one side alone. That was the impression that I
24 Q. Sir, did you hear any radio traffic over your Motorola after the
25 shooting started?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did you hear?
3 A. I heard our commander, Mr. Oficir, calling out names and informing
4 someone that something had happened. He said that the hairpin had
5 happened, that something had happened, that someone had been wounded or
6 someone had been killed.
7 Q. And sir, when you refer to hair pin, what does that mean?
8 A. It means that someone, in this case the officer, the commander, is
9 informing someone, a superior officer, about the fact that someone was
10 killed or wounded.
11 Q. Do you recall Mr. Cuturic using anyone else's call sign during
12 this conversation, this radio communication, you were hearing?
13 A. As far as I can remember, Bor. I think he called out the name
14 Bor. He called Bor.
15 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened next, sir?
16 A. Afterwards, the officer Cuturic came in his vehicle, he came to
17 where I was, by the Zuti Most. I stopped for a while, I saw that one of
18 his arms was bandaged, I can't remember exactly. Very briefly he told me
19 about what had happened down there, in front of the agricultural
21 Q. Sir, from what direction was Mr. Cuturic travelling when he
22 arrived at your position at Zuti Most?
23 A. He arrived from the direction of Sandici. He was heading in the
24 direction of Kravica, in the direction of Bratunac.
25 Q. Was he driving a detachment vehicle?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was there anyone else in the car?
3 A. I can't remember.
4 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber, in as much detail as you can, what
5 Mr. Cuturic told you had happened back at the Kravica warehouse.
6 A. Well, as far as I can remember, he said that the Muslims had taken
7 away Krle's rifle, a member of the 3rd Platoon, and they used his rifle to
8 kill him. There was shooting then, and he said he was going to Bratunac
9 to the health centre. He said I should stay where I was until he returned
10 and issued other orders. He said he had burnt himself because he got hold
11 of the barrel of a rifle, as far as I can remember.
12 Q. I note that the transcript didn't capture the name of the member
13 of the 3rd Platoon who had his rifle taken away, according to Mr. Cuturic.
14 Can you just repeat the name of the man who was killed, whose
15 rifle had been taken away from him?
16 A. His nickname was Krle but his name was Krsto. I don't know his
17 family name.
18 Q. And do you know where Krsto was from?
19 A. I know he was from Skelani and that he was a member of the 3rd
20 Skelani Platoon.
21 Q. Now, sir, while Mr. Cuturic was telling you all this, was the
22 shooting still going on, this new shooting, this different shooting that
23 you were hearing? Was it still going on?
24 A. Yes. You could still here the shooting.
25 Q. So, did you ask Mr. Cuturic what was happening to the Muslim
1 prisoners back in the Kravica warehouse?
2 A. I can't remember asking him about them.
3 Q. Well, do you remember him telling you, during this conversation
4 while you heard this shooting going on, what was happening to the Muslim
5 prisoners back in the Kravica warehouse, sir?
6 A. Well, he told me about what had happened. He said he was going to
7 Bratunac. He said that they were shooting at Muslims, but I can't
8 remember everything he said, all his words.
9 Q. My question, sir, is did he tell you what was happening to the
10 Muslims at the time, the same time you were speaking to him? Did he tell
11 you what was happening to them down in the warehouse? Not what had
12 happened beforehand but what was happening as you were speaking to him and
13 hearing the shooting?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek?
15 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, that's asked and answered
16 and if the Prosecution wants this witness to try to explain what was
17 happening at the time that the third party was not even at the warehouse
18 is impossible. So I object on those grounds.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, do you wish to comment on that?
21 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think my questions having pretty
22 clear and I don't believe he has fully answered the question I asked, so
23 I'm following up with a simple question about what Mr. Cuturic told him,
24 if anything, was happening to those prisoners.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection overturned. We are of the opinion that
2 Mr. Thayer's last question is a step further from his previous question,
3 so please proceed. You may, of course, repeat the question if you wish
4 to, Mr. Thayer.
5 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. I will.
6 Q. Sir --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise I can read it out myself to him.
8 MR. THAYER: I'll just give it another try, Your Honour.
9 Q. Sir, on this occasion, when Mr. Cuturic was telling you what had
10 happened back at the warehouse, and how he injured his hand, while you
11 were hearing the shooting going on still from that area, what did he tell
12 you, if anything, was still going on with respect to those Muslim
13 prisoners back at the warehouse? What, if anything, did he tell you was
14 happening to them as he was speaking to you?
15 A. Well, he said that they had started shooting at the Muslims.
16 Q. My question isn't whether they had started shooting. My question
17 is, sir, what if anything did he tell you was still going on at the time
18 you were speaking to him at Yellow Bridge?
19 MR. MEEK: For the record, Mr. President, I think it's been asked
20 and answered now twice at least.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: The problem is with the word "started." One moment.
22 Let me confer with my colleagues.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer has every good reason to proceed along
25 with the questions that he's been putting because the witness has used the
1 word "started." You can only start at one given moment, and as you
2 proceed, you are no longer starting, you are continuing. So I think the
3 question that Mr. Thayer put to you should be answered by you. At a
4 certain time, Mr. Cuturic, Oficir, was supposedly, according to
5 Mr. Thayer, telling you what was happening. What did he tell you was
6 happening then?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he said that they were
8 shooting at the Muslims.
9 MR. THAYER: I'll proceed, Mr. President. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. He's your witness.
11 MR. THAYER:
12 Q. Did Mr. Cuturic change your assignment at all with these new
14 A. No.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: One question: Is this Mr. Cuturic still alive or
17 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, we've had previous testimony to that
18 effect, and I can certainly put that question to the witness as well.
19 Q. Sir, you heard His Honour's question. Do you know whether or not
20 Mr. Cuturic is still living?
21 A. He's not alive.
22 Q. Do you know approximately when he died?
23 A. He was killed on Ozren. I know that, but I don't know the exact
24 date. I don't know the year.
25 Q. And after your conversation with Mr. Cuturic at Zuti Most, in what
1 direction did he head at that time?
2 A. He set off in the direction of Bratunac.
3 Q. Did you continue to hold up that convoy, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did the shooting continue, sir?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did Oficir return, sir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what, if anything, he said to you
10 when he passed back through your position?
11 A. I can't remember. I can't remember whether he stopped when he
12 returned. I can't remember.
13 Q. And from which direction was he travelling when he returned to
14 your position?
15 A. From the direction of Bratunac, because that's the direction he
16 had set off in.
17 Q. And when he returned from the direction of Bratunac, was there
18 anyone else in the car with him?
19 A. I can't remember. When he set off, there was no one, but I can't
20 remember when he returned and whether there was anyone with him either.
21 Q. So please tell the Trial Chamber what happened next, sir.
22 A. After a while I was ordered by Commander Cuturic to let the convoy
23 pass through. He said it could pass through and move on.
24 Q. And, sir, did the shooting stop after Mr. Cuturic passed back
25 through your position, coming from Bratunac?
1 A. Well, as far as I can remember, yes, more or less.
2 Q. Well, do you recall approximately what time of the day it was when
3 the shooting finally stopped? I'm not asking you for a watch time, just
4 what time of the day, if you can recall, it was when the shooting finally
6 A. Well, sometime in the afternoon, as far as I can remember.
7 Q. And would this be early, mid or late afternoon, sir, to the best
8 of your recollection?
9 A. It was in the late afternoon.
10 Q. What happened next, sir?
11 A. When he told me the convoy could pass through, he also told me to
12 stay at that location, at Zuti Most, and he said that the bus that had
13 brought us there from our detachment would be arriving from the direction
14 of Kravica or Bratunac, and he said I should get on the bus and go to
15 Konjevic Polje and continue in the direction of Sandici.
16 Q. Do you have any recollection approximately how long it was before
17 this bus arrived, from the time you spoke last with Mr. Cuturic?
18 A. I can't remember how much time passed.
19 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this, sir: By the time the shooting
20 had stopped, was it dark yet?
21 A. I can't remember. Perhaps it was dusk, but it was in the
23 Q. And when this bus arrived for you, sir, was it the actual
24 detachment bus, the official bus?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And other than the driver, was there anyone else on the bus when
2 it picked you up?
3 A. I can't remember. I can't remember.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Thayer, could you kindly ask him again from what
5 direction did the bus come at the time?
6 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Your Honour, I will.
7 Q. Sir, from what direction did this bus come to fetch you?
8 A. From the direction of Bratunac, Bratunac, Kravica.
9 Q. Okay. Let's --
10 JUDGE KWON: But he may have -- you may need sometime but for me I
11 have difficulty to find out the exact place of Zuti Most, so sometime if
12 you could ask him to mark on the map the place where he stopped the buses,
13 the buses of convoy.
14 MR. THAYER: Okay. I'll try to do that.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 MR. THAYER: We didn't have much luck with sketches and maps, Your
17 Honour, but I'll do my best with what we have.
18 JUDGE KWON: A rough whereabouts of Zuti Most in relation to
19 Kravica, Sandici, Bratunac, whatever.
20 MR. THAYER: Okay. With the Court's indulgence let me just
21 identify a map that we can perhaps call up on e-court, and we can answer
22 Your Honour's question right away.
23 If we may have map 6 of the Court binder map book, ERN 05054371, I
24 think we'll be able to call that up. That's 65 ter 2111. And if we could
25 focus, it will be the top third of the map on the location depicting the
1 road running between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje. That is what we will be
2 showing the witness. That's perfect. Thank you.
3 Q. Sir, do you see a map in front of you on your computer screen?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And I just want you to take a moment and orient yourself, if you
6 would. Do you recognise the various locations that are depicted along
7 that communication between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje?
8 A. Yes, I do know them.
9 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to take the magic pen that Madam Usher
10 is about to hand you and mark - and we understand that this is not going
11 to be exact - the approximate location, and please do this with an X, of
12 this area called Zuti Most, where you were posted by Mr. Cuturic.
13 A. Zuti Most was in the village of Kravica, not far from the coach
14 station. Kravica is an inhabited place and it's on the route.
15 Q. Okay. And in your recollection, it was actually located within
16 the village of Kravica, is that your testimony? Not outside on one side
17 or the other but within the physical confines of the village of Kravica;
18 is that your recollection?
19 A. The village of Kravica is spread along the road to a certain
20 extent, in the direction of Sandici, but most of the inhabitants are in
21 the village of Kravica, but the Zuti Most location is at the exit of the
22 coach station. It wasn't in fact Zuti Most, it was subsequently built.
23 There was a fence that was put up.
24 Q. Okay. And was it closer to Bratunac or closer to Konjevic Polje,
25 in the village of Kravica?
1 A. Yes, somewhere there, in the middle, because Kravica is in the
2 middle of this section of the road.
3 Q. Okay. Then why don't we just put an X right where the area of
4 Kravica is depicted? That little circle right under Kravica.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we really need that?
6 JUDGE KWON: What I'd like to know actually is that -- in relation
7 to the location of that warehouse, whether his place is located to the
8 direction of Bratunac or on the other way around.
9 MR. THAYER: That's precisely what my next question is,
10 Your Honour.
11 Q. Sir, can you mark with another circle the approximate location of
12 the Kravica warehouse?
13 A. Looking from Kravica, it was towards Sandici, perhaps some 700
14 metres from this Yellow Bridge, in my estimate. That would be about
15 here. [Marks].
16 Q. Okay. Now, when the bus came to fetch you, sir, from which
17 direction was the bus travelling?
18 A. From the direction of Bratunac. That's the junction between
19 Kravica and Zuti Most.
20 Q. So it was coming from the right-hand side as depicted on this map?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because Judge Kwon rightly is pointing
22 out to me that we could have later on some confusion when trying to read
23 into this map. There is an X there that the witness marked. You had
24 actually asked him to mark with a circle the approximate location of the
25 Kravica warehouse. Now, he didn't mark anything with a circle. He
1 marked -- he put an X. So if he could perhaps tell us now what that X
2 represents, because I want to make sure that there will not be any
3 confusion later on, and then he needs to mark also his own location.
4 What does that X that you marked on the map indicate, Mr. Pepic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, sir, instead of the
6 circle the Prosecutor told me to put, I put an X but I can correct it if
8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not important that you correct it. What is
9 important is that you tell us what that X represents. Does it represent
10 the Kravica warehouse? Or does it represent the spot where you were?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the warehouse of the
12 agricultural cooperative in Kravica. But I just put an X instead of a
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. One moment.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And could you now indicate -- first let's
17 start like this. First, beneath that X, could you put the letters KW?
18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you need no assist him. Okay. All right.
20 That's good. Now, we need you to mark with another X, on that same map,
21 the spot where you were. Did you understand me, Mr. Pepic?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did, but there is a yellow
23 dot here and I'm trying to put my X on top of it but I'm not managing.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Okay. Then we give you another magic pen
25 with a different colour and you can indicate the spot where you were with
1 a different colour.
2 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Next to it, to its right, could you please
4 put MP, Milenko Pepic, MP.
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
6 JUDGE KWON: And the bus to fetch you arrived from what direction?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the direction of Bratunac.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need this map any further, Mr. Thayer?
9 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President, thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Then, Mr. Pepic, at the top right-hand corner of the
11 map, if you could kindly put your initials or signature, and today's date?
12 Today is the 9th of July.
13 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Pepic. And that can be
15 archived. Thank you.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number IC 137.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.
18 Yes, Mr. Thayer?
19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Sir, after this bus picked you up, what direction did you head?
21 A. From Kravica to Sandici and on to Konjevic Polje.
22 Q. So did you pass the Kravica warehouse on your way to Konjevic
24 A. Yes, we did.
25 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what, if anything, you noticed
1 about the Kravica warehouse as you drove by in the bus?
2 A. I noticed on the wall of the cooperative there were visible traces
3 of bullets, and outside the cooperative there was a pile of hay.
4 Q. Now, first of all, with respect to the bullet holes you saw, sir,
5 can you describe generally for the Trial Chamber the quantity of bullet
6 holes that you saw? I'm not asking to you count them but just can you
7 give the Trial Chamber an idea of the number?
8 A. Well, there were obvious, obvious bullet holes.
9 Q. Was it a few, a lot?
10 A. Well, quite a few, quite a few. Large number.
11 Q. And were those bullet holes present on the outside of the Kravica
12 warehouse when you had passed by the previous day, or when you had first
13 been deployed to that location?
14 A. Not that I had noticed, but I didn't look.
15 Q. Now, this hay that you've described, sir, why does the hay stand
16 out in your mind?
17 A. Well, when I was going from Sandici towards Kravica, I hadn't
18 noticed it. I hadn't noticed that hay piled up.
19 Q. At this time, if we may have 65 ter number 1563 displayed on
20 e-court? Sir, do you see an image on your screen?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recognise any of the structures in this image?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. And what do you recognise?
25 A. Across the road from the building.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Across the road there
2 is this building of the agricultural cooperative.
4 Q. And if you would take that pen, sir, and just write ZZ on the roof
5 of that building you've identified as the Kravica warehouse?
6 A. Well, there is more than one warehouse. I see four. [Marks]
7 Q. Okay. Well the one where you saw the hay being laid out and the
8 bullet holes, that's the one we are talking about. Is that the one you
9 just marked with ZZ?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. And would you just circle, sir, the area where you saw this hay
12 piled up outside the warehouse?
13 A. [Marks] This area here.
14 Q. And can you recall where you saw the bullet holes?
15 A. Well, on this wall, all over this wall where the hay was, that
17 Q. And can you just mark with an X the wall you're referring to, sir?
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. And I see you've marked it with three Xs; is that correct?
20 A. Yes. That part of the wall is where I noticed those bullet holes.
21 Q. And I'd just ask you to write your initials in the lower
22 right-hand corner and today's date, which is the 9th of July.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And we can save the exhibit, please, and we'll be done with it.
25 Sir, do you recall seeing any bodies in front of the warehouse?
1 A. I don't. I just saw the hay.
2 Q. Do you recall seeing any soldiers in front of the warehouse as you
3 drove by on your way to Konjevic Polje?
4 A. Yes. There were soldiers.
5 Q. Were they in uniform, sir?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were they armed?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you make out what unit they belonged to or even whether they
10 were police or army?
11 A. I couldn't tell. I didn't know that [as interpreted].
12 Q. When you arrived at Konjevic Polje, what did you do?
13 A. When we got to Konjevic Polje, we headed to the right, towards
14 Zvornik, and that's where we were billeted in abandoned Muslim houses to
15 spend the night.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one very small intervention, in the
18 transcript, if I remember the answer that witness gave, it's on page 44,
19 line 18, he answered, "I didn't know them" and here it says, "I didn't
20 know that." Meaning that he didn't know the soldiers that he saw in front
21 of the warehouse so --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a fairly legitimate point that you make, and I
23 think we need to address it to the witness also because the question
24 itself was a little bit compound.
25 Now, let's start with the first question, Mr. Pepic. Could you
1 make out what or which unit they belonged to?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you at least make out whether they belonged to
4 the police or whether they belonged to the army?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that satisfy you, Mr. Lazarevic? And you,
7 Mr. Thayer?
8 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.
10 MR. THAYER:
11 Q. Now, sir, before we talk about what happened when you were at the
12 abandoned house in Konjevic Polje, while you were deployed along the road,
13 either at the retaining wall where you were positioned, or at Zuti Most,
14 did anyone tell you or did you hear that General Mladic was in the area?
15 A. I heard he was around in those parts. But I didn't see him
17 Q. Now, while you were deployed along the road, again either at your
18 position at the retaining wall or later when you were posted at Zuti Most,
19 did anyone tell you or did you hear that Mr. Borovcanin was in the area?
20 A. I did hear that.
21 Q. When you were posted at the Zuti Most location, do you recall ever
22 seeing Mr. Borovcanin pass by your position?
23 A. I don't recall.
24 Q. Did you see him at all when you were posted on that road, either
25 at the retaining wall or at Zuti Most?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, back to the houses, sir, at Konjevic Polje, who was with you
3 in the abandoned house?
4 A. My fellow members of the same platoon, Predrag Celic, Zoran Vukic,
5 Zoran Tomic. There were those of us that I can remember. Zoran Lukic
6 actually, not Vukic.
7 Q. Did you see Mr. Cuturic while you were staying in that house?
8 A. Yes. He stopped by and stayed very briefly with us at the
9 abandoned house.
10 Q. And what if anything did he tell you at the time he stopped by?
11 And again please think carefully, sir, and try to remember to the best of
12 your recollection exactly what Mr. Cuturic told you when he came by that
14 A. If I remember correctly, he told us what had happened to our
15 colleague named Krle, K-R-L-E, how it came about that he was wounded, and
16 that's what I remember.
17 Q. Did he tell you anything at all about the people who did the
18 shooting at the Kravica warehouse?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did he tell you anything at all what he thought would happen to
21 the people who did the shooting at the Kravica warehouse?
22 A. I don't understand this question. Could you repeat it?
23 Q. Did Mr. Cuturic express to you any opinion about what would or
24 should happen to whoever committed the shootings in the Kravica warehouse,
1 A. As far as I remember, he said, "Somebody will have to be held
2 accountable for what had happened at the cooperative in Kravica, sooner or
3 later." That's what I remember him saying.
4 Q. Did you and your colleagues discuss who was responsible for the
5 shooting at the Kravica warehouse?
6 A. No. Not that I remember. We didn't.
7 Q. Well, sir, did you ever try to find out who did?
8 A. No.
9 Q. To this day, sir, do you have any information as to who did the
10 shooting at the Kravica warehouse?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Sir, did you spend the night in that abandoned house in Konjevic
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know how many days and nights you actually spent deployed
16 along that road?
17 A. You mean the road, Bratunac-Konjevic Polje?
18 Q. Yes, sir, before you spent the night in that abandoned house.
19 A. I couldn't recall. I remember -- if I remember well -- in the
20 evening on the 11th, we were put up at Bjelovac, that's one night, and I
21 remember the night in Konjevic Polje, and later on, further down the road
22 to Zvornik. I cannot get the dates.
23 Q. Okay. And did I show you some medical records from the Bratunac
24 medical centre yesterday when we met, sir?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber what those medical records
3 A. Medical files from the health centre in Bratunac, if I understood
4 correctly, with records of the time and date when the gentleman nicknamed
5 Oficir was at the health centre and when our other colleague, Krle, was
6 brought to Bratunac to the health centre. It also lists the injuries on
7 Mr. Cuturic, if I remember well.
8 Q. And do you recall what the date was on those entries for those two
9 patients, when they were admitted to the health centre?
10 A. 13th July 1995.
11 Q. And when you saw that record, sir, did that jog your memory or did
12 that help your recollection at all as to how many nights you may have
13 spent along the road before you spent the night in Konjevic Polje?
14 A. Most probably only one night, the night of the 12th. That could
15 be it.
16 Q. And just to be clear, sir, in your recollection, were you posted
17 at Zuti Most by Mr. Cuturic and then withdrawn to Konjevic Polje, to those
18 houses, on the same day, whatever the date was of that day?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So where were you deployed next from Konjevic Polje?
21 A. We were sent off, if I remember correctly, in the direction of
23 Q. And were you deployed to any particular location in the Zvornik
25 A. From what I remember, from Zvornik we were sent on to Baljkovica.
1 Baljkovica is a village not far from Zvornik.
2 Q. And do you recall approximately how much time you spent in the
3 Baljkovica area?
4 A. One night, we spent there. That's something I remember. And the
5 next day we stayed on for a while but until when, I can't remember. We
6 left maybe in the afternoon most probably.
7 Q. And while were you deployed to that area, was there fighting, was
8 there combat?
9 A. You mean in Baljkovica?
10 Q. Yes, sir.
11 A. Yes. There was fighting.
12 Q. Can you describe the nature of the fighting, sir?
13 A. Infantry combat, shelling.
14 Q. And to your knowledge, did the Serb forces suffer killed and
15 wounded during those engagements?
16 A. Yes. I know that. Some were wounded, some were killed.
17 Q. Now, sir, you testified that Mr. Cuturic told you that someone
18 would be held accountable for what happened at the Kravica warehouse. Did
19 any superior officer in the Special Police Brigade ever ask you for a
20 report concerning your actions or your platoon's actions along that road
21 in July of 1995?
22 A. No, no one.
23 Q. Did anyone ever do so, sir?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions at this time?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Who is going first?
2 Mr. Stojanovic? If could you kindly introduce yourself with the witness.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. Good day
4 to the Prosecution.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
6 Q. Mr. Pepic, my name is Stojanovic and together with my colleagues,
7 I represent Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin. I was following your testimony and
8 now I'll just try to go through some of the questions to which I believe
9 some of the answers were unclear. Let's try and establish a chronology of
10 events because I'm under the impression that we have a problem when it
11 comes to certain dates, certain dates that are very important for us.
12 Would you agree with me if I said that on the 11th of July, in the
13 afternoon, you set off from the Sarajevo battlefield in the direction of
14 Bratunac and the village of Bjelovac; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Your unit was transferred on that occasion by bus, and lorry.
17 These were buses and lorry that your unit had at that time in July of
18 1995; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. To the best of your recollection how many members of the Sekovici
21 Detachment approximately arrived in the Bratunac area on that occasion?
22 A. I don't know the exact number but there were two platoons or
23 rather there were three infantry platoons, as far as I can remember, but
24 as far as the strength of the troops is concerned, I don't remember.
25 Q. Would you agree with me that a police platoon within a detachment
1 has about 30 men?
2 A. Well, more or less, sometimes there were fewer men. Between 20
3 and 30 men, though.
4 Q. When you arrived in Bratunac, you did not know what your future
5 combat task would be at the time; is that correct?
6 A. Yes. We did not know.
7 Q. At any point in time upon arriving in Bratunac or, rather, in the
8 place called Bjelovac, which you spent the night, did you at any point in
9 time receive information according to which the Republika Srpska army had
10 entered Srebrenica?
11 A. Yes, we heard that on the 11th, there was Srebrenica.
12 Q. Since we are following the transcript, the sentence isn't
13 complete. I'll put the question to you again and you can answer it by
14 saying yes or no. At any point in time upon arriving in Bratunac, did you
15 receive information according to which Republika Srpska troops had already
16 entered Srebrenica?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Let's go in chronological order. Between the 9th of
19 the [as interpreted] -- and the 11th and 12th, you spent that night in the
20 school in Bjelovac?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. For the sake of the transcript, let's repeat this because on page
23 52, line 2 and 3, I don't think it has been correctly recorded. So would
24 we agree that the night between the 11th and 12th of July was a night that
25 you spent in that school in Bjelovac, isn't that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. On the 12th of July, you received your first combat assignment,
3 and that was to turn right from the Zuti Most down towards the villages
4 that you could see in front of you; if you're looking in the direction of
5 Potocari, that was the direction you had to head in; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you remember whether you received any concrete order that had
8 to do with the UN check-point that was by the Zuti Most?
9 A. No, we hadn't received any orders about that.
10 Q. Can you remember whether there was a UN check-point on the other
11 side of the Zuti Most, if you're looking in the direction of Potocari?
12 A. I can't remember having seen such a check-point.
13 Q. Given my understanding of your answers provided today and the way
14 you understood your first task on the 12th of July, was that you should
15 search the terrain and perhaps engage in combat with any enemy forces that
16 might be present in the area. Is my conclusion correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You have already told us that you did not have any concrete orders
19 that concerned encounters with the civilian population; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You also said when carrying out the combat task you didn't
22 encounter any ABiH members. You also didn't see any civilians; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Had you encountered any civilians, you assume you would have asked
1 your superior officers for instructions as to what to do; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At one point in time you received an order, as you said two or
4 three hours after you had been advancing towards these villages, you
5 received the order to return to the asphalt road leading from Bratunac to
6 Potocari. Do you remember that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you reached the asphalt road not far from the Zuti Most; is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Please assist us now and let's have a look at Exhibit -- Defence
12 Exhibit 4D101, Your Honours. This is a map of the area. We have already
13 used this map when another Prosecution witness appeared here. Mr. Pepic,
14 while we are waiting for the map to appear on the monitor, I'll just say
15 that this is a map of the area you have been referring to. I will soon
16 ask you to mark the locations you have been mentioning. If we can scroll
17 down a bit and go to the left, scroll down a little more or perhaps scroll
18 up a bit. Yes. That's -- scroll up a little more. No, in the other
19 direction. I apologise. Scroll down. A little more. Thank you. I
20 think that will be fine. Could we perhaps zoom in a little? Just a
21 little. And scroll down a little more so that we can see this area.
22 That's excellent. Thanks.
23 Could the usher please provide the witness with the marker we will
24 be using to mark certain locations on the map?
25 Mr. Pepic, can you find your bearings on this map now? If you can
1 see the road from Bratunac to Potocari, it's marked in yellow, isn't it?
2 And behind a place called Borici, there is a point at which the road is
3 cut off or interrupted. I don't know if you can see it.
4 A. It's not very clear. I can't see it.
5 Q. Follow the road marked in yellow, the road to Potocari, and you'll
6 find a place marked the village of Borici?
7 A. I found it.
8 Q. Go further down and at the location marked P 60/6, can you see
9 this cut off point?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would you agree with me that this might represent the bridge?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You can also see the river there, the point at which it crosses
14 the river?
15 A. Yes, the Knjisi [phoen] river.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, if you think it's better, I was
18 going to suggest that we could zoom in that particular part to which you
19 have referred the witness, particularly where there is Borici and where
20 there is exactly -- yes. You can zoom even further. We can zoom even
21 further. Yes, and I think the witness himself can have a second look and
22 probably will be in a position to confirm his previous answers, wouldn't
23 you, Mr. Pepic? And then we can proceed. Yes. Okay.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. Have a look at the villages to the right of the road. The
3 villages Budak and Pale, can you see them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. To the best of your recollection, try and mark the route you
6 followed more or less when you went to the right of the road and mark the
7 circle in the direction of the village and can you also mark the point
8 where you reached the road, the asphalt road, more or less?
9 A. Well, as far as I can remember, we have the Zuti Most, the Yellow
10 Bridge here, and we set off to the right from this location. [Marks]
11 The closest village here is Budak.
12 Q. And did you then follow this road that's marked here to descend to
13 the -- into the main road?
14 A. Yes, as far as I can remember, we followed the same route.
15 Q. Can you use the red marker to indicate the route you took to get
16 down to the asphalt road from this dirt road?
17 A. Well, perhaps it was like this. [Marks] It was in the vicinity
18 of the Zuti Most.
19 Q. Thank you. Could we agree that this was on the 12th of July 1995,
20 in the morning?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And let me ask you for something else. Could you just mark the
23 starting point with the letter A, the point from which you set off?
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. And could we agree that you turned right below the bridge when
1 you're looking in the direction of Potocari; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I'm asking you about this because given the map we could have the
4 impression that you set off in the direction behind the bridge. Please
5 mark with the letter B the point at which you reached the asphalt road?
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Thank you. The witness has marked those two sites. Now could you
8 just write down the date, the 9th of July 2007, and could you put your
9 initials on the document anywhere to the right?
10 A. [Marks]
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your
12 permission, could we zoom in again for another two questions and then I
13 won't need the map, but now we could remove it because I don't need it in
14 this form any more.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Could we in fact
16 zoom out?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to store this first, Mr. Stojanovic.
18 Then we'll get the same map. Do you wish us to zoom in further or zoom
19 out? Out? Okay.
20 Mr. Stojanovic?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we just zoom
22 out and then store this?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. First we store this and then we zoom out.
24 So let's store this, please, and then give it the number later. We will
25 communicate that to the parties. Is it stored?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we can have the same map without these
3 markings. Yes, okay. And we can zoom out. You tell us when to stop,
4 Mr. Stojanovic. Because I don't know what your intentions are.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is quite enough,
6 Your Honour. We now have an idea where Potocari is in view of the next
7 two questions.
8 Q. Mr. Pepic, would you now agree that, now that we have seen what
9 you've marked, that the spot where you emerged on the asphalt road and
10 where relative to the position where you saw civilians in the industrial
11 zone in Potocari, the distance was at least 1500 metres between these two?
12 A. Yes, approximately.
13 Q. You, and the members of your unit, never approached the industrial
14 zone of Potocari where the refugees were, not at any moment?
15 A. No, we did not.
16 Q. Would you agree with me that you left this area before the
17 evacuation of these people began, towards Kladanj and Tuzla?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. None of the members of your unit had any specific assignment
20 related to organising the evacuation of refugees from Potocari; is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If I understood you correctly, you then returned to the Yellow
24 Bridge, boarded your own bus, and went towards Bratunac; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. At one point, on the way towards Zvornik, you stopped in the area
2 of Sandici village; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. We stopped before Sandici.
4 Q. Let us try to reconstruct the chronology of events. You said it
5 was sometime in the afternoon. Can we then agree it was in the afternoon
6 of the 12th July?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. I will try to establish a time line to make it easier
9 for all of us. It is the claim of this Defence that your next assignment
10 was to secure the road between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje and to defend
11 Kravica and Sandici from possible breakout attempts by Muslim forces. Was
12 that your understanding as well of your next combat assignment?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. By the way, let me ask you, in view of what you answered to my
15 colleague, Mr. Thayer, in all those numerous combat assignments all over
16 Republika Srpska, to the best of your knowledge, did your unit ever use
18 A. No.
19 Q. Would you agree with me, again to the best of your knowledge, that
20 your unit did not possess any megaphones to use for such purposes?
21 A. No, we didn't have megaphones.
22 Q. A number of questions were asked here in attempts to establish
23 where you were in the afternoon of the 12th. Would you agree with me if I
24 said that you personally were on the border between Sandici village and
25 Kravica village, not far from the road sign that marks the beginning of
1 the area of Sandici? Is that correct? Is that the correct description of
2 the location where you were standing?
3 A. Yes, yes, correct.
4 Q. In examination-in-chief you gave an estimate of 1.000 metres as
5 the distance to the warehouse in Kravica, but I would like to ask you how
6 far were you from the house that was on the slope above you in the area
7 that we call Sandici?
8 A. Up to 500 metres, maybe a little more or a little less.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer? Sorry, I was looking at you. Yes,
10 Mr. Thayer?
11 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if we could just have some more
12 clarification as to the approximate location of this house, I don't
13 believe we've heard any testimony about it. If my friend is going there, I
14 apologise for intervening. I just wanted to get some orientation as to
15 this house on the slope because there are a number of houses that have
16 been referred to with respect to these events.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you do that, Mr. Stojanovic?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think we
19 will clarify this and we are just about to.
20 Q. Mr. Pepic, to the best of your recollection of that period, and I
21 suppose you know the area well because you still live and work there, do
22 you remember there was an elevation there, in the area that we call
23 Sandici village, there was a destroyed house in the direction of Kravica
24 looking from Konjevic Polje?
25 A. Yes. There is a house.
1 Q. A moment ago, when you answered that in your rough estimate you
2 were about 500 metres away from it, was that the house you meant?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, we should be having a break in a
5 couple of minutes' time. Whenever it's convenient for you, we'll have it,
6 we will have the break. Go ahead. Go on, if you need another two minutes
7 before you move on to the next topic. Otherwise we stop here.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe this is a good moment to
9 break because I'm moving to the next day.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's what I felt. That's why I asked you.
11 Yes, Mr. Thayer?
12 MR. THAYER: Mr. President if we could just have a rough estimate
13 on how much longer my friend has? We have another witness that's waiting.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, the latest update that we had was one hour for
15 the Borovcanin team, and that was this morning, correct me if I am wrong,
16 and then we have about another hour and a half distributed amongst the
17 other Defence teams. We can verify that. Mr. Zivanovic, do you still
18 need 20 minutes?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honour, we will not have no questions for
20 this witness.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Meek?
22 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I believe we probably will
23 have no questions.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Nikolic has already indicated that
25 there is no intention to cross-examine this witness. Correct?
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Fauveau? You requested 20
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we'll probably have
5 no questions at all.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. The Gvero team no questions. Thank you,
7 Madam Fauveau. And the Pandurevic team, 15 minutes?
8 MR. HAYNES: Less than five.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Less than five. All right. And you, Mr. Stojanovic,
10 how much more? You had asked for one hour. I know you always feel
11 confused when I put this question to you but please do give us an answer.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think we have stuck quite
13 closely to our estimate. We have used up half an hour already, and from
14 the remaining questions, I think we'll need just another half hour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And do you plan to have a re-examination
16 with this witness so far, Mr. Thayer?
17 MR. THAYER: Not so far, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Not so far. So basically after the break, we'll
19 have roughly three-quarters of an hour, two-thirds of which will be taken
20 by Mr. Stojanovic, I take it, another five minutes by Mr. Haynes a bit
21 more or less. So if we can start with the next witness, say, for ten
22 minutes -- but at best, at best, we could have him for about ten minutes
23 max, so please you take the decision on what you think you ought to do.
24 We'll have a 25-minute break from now.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. McCloskey, before we rise, there is a
2 Borovcanin motion for certification for purposes of our videolink decision
3 which we handed down last week. We would like you to you file your
4 response to it by not later than by the end of this week, please.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. May I just
11 have two minutes of your attention? My team is finalising our submission
12 concerning the analysis of intercepts, and our submission would be longer
13 than the 3.000 words envisaged by the directive on written submissions.
14 It's a general analysis of all the intercepts used in these proceedings.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You want that limit extended, I suppose?
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We can decide on that here and now.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So how much more do you require, roughly?
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] It is hard to say at this moment,
21 but I believe that we will need more than double.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Try to restrict it to double, please. And to that
23 extent, we are prepared to grant you. Yes. We grant your request.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness?
1 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if I may just to let the Court know,
2 we decided to send the next witness home for the day, just given our
3 experience and how things generally turn out, we thought it would be on
4 the whole better just to call him back and begin tomorrow.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think we will be utilising the entire
6 time in any case. Thank you for keeping us informed, Mr. Thayer.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are going to continue. Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Pepic, if you recall, we left off discussing the afternoon of
11 the 12th of July and the location where you were standing on the road
12 between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje. Do you recall that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would I be right in saying that practically that evening of the
15 12th of July and the night of the 12th of July, you spent there on the
16 road because on the 13th, as you put it, the next day, you received a new
17 assignment to hold up traffic?
18 A. Yes, that's how the events unfolded.
19 Q. We dispose of information - and I can even tell you who told us
20 this - that that night of the 12th, the BH army attacked this road and on
21 that occasion a member of the 1st Company of PJP, Zeljko Nikolic, was
22 killed, while three members of the police were wounded. Could you confirm
23 this to the best of your recollection, and can you confirm that there was
24 indeed fighting that night with the armed forces of the BH?
25 A. Yes. I heard about the death of this colleague from PJP on that
1 section of the road towards Konjevic Polje.
2 Q. Do you remember that those two days, the afternoon of the 12th and
3 the day of the 13th, you saw UN vehicles escorting the civilian convoys
4 heading to Kladanj and Tuzla?
5 A. I can't remember, but...
6 Q. Let me try to jog your memory. Do you remember seeing an armoured
7 personnel carrier with the emblem of the UN on that road?
8 A. Yes. I remember the APC, but I don't know on which of the two
9 days I saw it.
10 Q. But you can confirm today that it was on one of these two days; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And if our time line is correct, we are now coming to the next day
14 when you were again on the road, that afternoon you received an assignment
15 from the commander of your unit to hold up traffic on that road, is this
16 consistent with your recollection?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can we agree for the record that that could be the 13th of July,
19 the afternoon of the 13th?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. When my learned friend Mr. Thayer examined you, you said the
22 reason why you were supposed to hold up traffic was what your commander
23 told you, namely that a group of Muslims was about to surrender and they
24 were about to pass by that road?
25 A. Yes. That's how it was.
1 Q. You said the Muslims were supposed to surrender. Do you know when
2 they surrendered?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Nor do you know to which unit they surrendered?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Can we agree that it was not your unit to which they surrendered
7 because otherwise you would have known?
8 A. There were no Muslims surrendering on the section of the road
9 where I was.
10 Q. Can we agree that on that day, the traffic on the road was
11 intensive? On one hand, there were convoys of trucks and buses and
12 passenger cars and combat vehicles from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, while
13 the transports of Muslims were supposed to be in the opposite direction
14 and that could have caused a collapse in traffic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is it precisely in order to avoid that that you understood you
17 were given that order by your commander to hold up traffic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Your assignment was to stop all traffic on the road at the moment
20 when the transfer of captured Muslims was to take place towards Kravica.
21 Did I understand you correctly?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The place that you called Zuti Most, the place that you marked, is
24 at least 700 metres in your assessment from the warehouse in Kravica; is
25 that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It's physically impossible to see the warehouse in Kravica from
3 that location?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. How long did you have to wait until your commander came in that
6 vehicle? How much time passed?
7 A. I can't remember. I couldn't answer. Can't remember how much
8 time passed.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if we could just clarify which time we
11 are talking about. There were a couple of encounters and conversations
12 with Mr. Cuturic. I just want to make that clear for the record.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Please address that, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. My question was as follows: How much time passed from the time
16 you arrived at Zuti Most up until the time you saw Rade Cuturic, your
17 commander, going in the direction of Bratunac, with his arms that were
18 bandaged as you yourself have already said? Your answer was that you
19 can't assess the time that passed.
20 A. Yes, I can't.
21 Q. Thank you. I think that's been cleared up now.
22 While you were on the bridge, you said that you heard shooting
23 from the direction of Sandici and from various positions. Do you remember
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then you said that at one point in time you heard intense
2 firing that continued for up to an hour. Do you remember that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When Rade Cuturic your commander arrived with his bandaged arm and
5 was heading towards Bratunac, this intensive firing stopped and you could
6 hear firing that was less intensive from the direction of Sandici; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. At any point in time, and from the same direction, from the
10 direction of Konjevic Polje, towards Bratunac, did you see some other
11 vehicle in front of or behind the vehicle that Rade Cuturic was in?
12 A. I can't remember.
13 Q. When you say you can't remember, does that mean that perhaps some
14 other vehicle passed by, but you cannot remember that now?
15 A. Well, perhaps some other vehicle did pass by, but I can't remember
17 Q. Do you remember seeing any dead member of your unit being
18 transported to Bratunac?
19 A. I can't remember that.
20 Q. I won't show the document that you were shown initially and the
21 document Mr. Thayer referred to, but if you remember it's a report from
22 the health centre in Bratunac and it says the 13th of July at 1645,
23 Dragicevic, Krsto, was taken there, he was dead, and Rade Cuturic also
24 appeared, he had been wounded, do you remember that?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Could we agree that it's logical to assume that when Rade Cuturic
2 went to Bratunac, this was probably before 1645? That would be a logical
3 conclusion, and it was on the 13th of July 1995?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You also remember that at one point in time, Rado Cuturic, your
6 commander, went from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, and he was alone in the
7 vehicle on that occasion too, do you remember that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Given what we have just said about the time and given that you've
10 said that it was in the afternoon on the 13th of July, as far as you can
11 remember, would you say that it was between or rather around 1800 hours?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You mentioned passing by the Kravica warehouse, you said that from
14 the bus you were in you could see some soldiers in front of the warehouse.
15 Do you remember saying that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You don't know which unit they were members of?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. You are only sure that they weren't members of your own unit
20 because had they been from your unit, you would have recognised them, you
21 knew your comrades in arms and your colleagues; isn't that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So you're certain that they were not members of your unit; can we
24 agree on that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Let's pay attention to the chronological events. Between 2000 and
2 2100 hours, on the 13th of July, that evening, you left the area, set off
3 in the direction of Zvornik, and found accommodation in Konjevic Polje, is
4 that what you remember?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So it was the night of the 13th, between the 13th and the 14th,
7 and that is the night that you spent in Konjevic Polje, in those abandoned
8 houses, can we agree on that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And during examination-in-chief you said that at one point in
11 time, Rade Cuturic appeared in the house were you in, and he told you
12 about the events that you have described in detail, in answer to
13 Mr. Thayer's questions. Isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did Rado Cuturic tell you how it is that Dragicevic Krsto ended up
16 in Kravica?
17 A. No.
18 Q. At any point in time, did you obtain information according to
19 which Krsto Dragicevic went there to check whether any of his Muslim
20 neighbours were there, neighbours he could ask about the fate of his
21 brother or cousin who was killed in 1993?
22 A. I can't say. I don't remember.
23 Q. My question was whether after these events, you had heard of such
24 a reason for which Krsto went down there, so I'm not asking you about that
25 evening, I'm asking you about whether you heard about this later.
1 A. I can't provide you with a precise answer but there was some
2 relative of his that was killed and it's probably for that reason.
3 Q. At any point in time after these events did you hear that anyone
4 from your unit or from some other MUP unit participated in the shooting of
5 these Muslims?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Would you agree with me that on that evening, the evening of the
8 13th, in Konjevic Polje, there were no members of the Skela platoon with
9 you, there were only members of the Marko Aleksic platoon and of your
11 A. Well, as far as I can remember, yes, that's correct, but now, as
12 for the 3rd Platoon, I don't remember.
13 Q. By analysing your testimony, I realised that you practically can't
14 remember that day, the 14th. You can't remember whether you moved or you
15 stayed in that area, Konjevic Polje and Drinjaca river, am I right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I won't insist because something similar happened with another
18 witness, but let me ask you this: On the 15th of July, you arrived in
19 Zvornik and it was a warm day, you were waiting in Zvornik for a new
20 assignment; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In the afternoon of the 15th, you received orders to go to
23 Baljkovica village, is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You spent the night of the 15th on your positions in Baljkovica,
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can we agree that you remember this because everybody who
4 testified before you spoke about extremely inclement weather that night?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. On the 16th, in the afternoon, when the column passed, the column
7 of the 28th Division, you were told to be on ease and you received
8 permission to take some rest and that's when you left this area, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Let me ask you, in conclusion, in broader terms than my colleague
11 asked you before, from the 12th of July, when you arrived at the
12 Yellow Bridge, until the afternoon of the 16th of July, when you got your
13 leave, over those four days, did you personally see Ljubomir Borovcanin?
14 A. No, I don't remember seeing him.
15 Q. Your unit travelled all over Republika Srpska on various combat
16 assignments and on those assignments, the units were commanded by
17 Ljubomir Borovcanin, were you there on such battlefields, on such
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What are your impressions about him as a commanding officer, as a
21 person, from that time?
22 A. I have only the best to say about our former commander. He was an
23 honest man, he treated us all equally, without any favouritism or
24 discrimination. All the best.
25 Q. You still work as a policeman today, a member of the MUP of
1 Republika Srpska?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. You have been vetted by the European Union's observers mission?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. None of them ever indicated that in any indication -- that in any
6 investigation into events related to Srebrenica, you were found
8 A. No.
9 Q. Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Witness. We have no further
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes? Or Mr. Sarapa?
12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:
14 Q. I am Djordje Sarapa, attorney at law appearing for the accused
15 Pandurevic. I have a couple of questions for you regarding Baljkovica.
16 You said a moment ago that you spent the night of the 15th on your
17 positions in Baljkovica which means that on the 16th you were still on
18 those positions?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. On the 16th, you received orders to withdraw to the hill just
21 before Baljkovica to allow the passage of the troops and Muslims going
22 towards Baljkovica?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You were told then that you were not to shoot because a cease-fire
25 had been agreed?
1 A. Yes. I seem to remember that.
2 Q. Do you know that on that occasion, a large number of civilians and
3 troops were allowed to pass through, and went on their way?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Just one question about your colleagues from your unit. Was
6 anybody from the Sekovici Detachment wounded or killed at Baljkovica?
7 A. Some people were wounded, but I'm not sure about any killing.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination?
12 MR. THAYER: Very briefly, Your Honour, just on one matter that
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:
16 Q. Sir I asked you generally about some medical records that we
17 looked at yesterday and my friend also asked you some questions about
18 those records. What I'd like to do is just go ahead and show you and have
19 displayed a copy of those records on e-court. This is 65 ter 1892 and
20 we're talking about page 30, I believe, of the document. It has
21 previously come in as 4DP01892, so it may be in the system that way. And
22 if I might have the assistance of Madam Usher it may be more helpful, sir,
23 for you to look at the original of the log here, and I'll give that to you
24 to look at. Perhaps we could -- I don't know if we can run that on ELMO
25 at the same time. If we could just rotate that, please?
1 Sir, do you see the entry that's marked as 1490 on the very
2 left-most column?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you see a date and a time in the column immediately to the
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what is the date and time?
8 A. The 13th of July 1995, 1740.
9 Q. And what is the name that appears next to that?
10 A. Cuturic, father's name Milan, Rade.
11 Q. And the next column has a date of birth; is that correct?
12 A. The 26th of August, 1971.
13 Q. And what does the next column say? What is the heading of that
14 column? What is the information there?
15 Thank you, Madam Usher.
16 A. Address.
17 Q. Okay. And what does it say?
18 A. Sekovici.
19 Q. And the next column, sir?
20 A. Unit. And then abbreviation, "Spec. MUP Brigade." Special MUP
22 Q. And what does the next column refer to? What's that heading?
23 A. Place where the individual was wounded.
24 Q. And what does it say there, sir?
25 A. It says Kravica.
1 Q. Now, I want you to look down to the next entry marked 1491. Do
2 you see a date and time listed? And it may or may not be more legible on
3 the original. I just ask to you look at the original sir because it's not
4 entirely clear on the computer here, sir. Can you see what the time is?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What does it look like to you?
7 A. 13th of July 1995.
8 Q. And the time, sir?
9 A. Is it a 9 or an 8?
10 Q. Okay. And what is the name of the patient?
11 A. Krsto Dragicevic, father's name Bogoljub.
12 Q. And the year of birth is listed as 1965, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Address -- address, Skelani?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Next column is again Spec Policija Skelani, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the final column, what does that say there?
19 A. Which final column? I don't understand.
20 Q. The one right next to Special Policija, Skelani?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly, it's not the last one.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Place where the individual is
23 wounded, it's Kravica as well.
24 MR. THAYER:
25 Q. Now, sir, in answer to a question from my colleague about whether
1 or not you'd heard information that this Krsto or Krle, as you knew him,
2 had a relative in Kravica, you answered that you didn't have that
3 particular information, but you had heard that one of his relatives had
4 been killed and you said that that was probably why he was there. When
5 did you first hear this information, sir, that this Krle had a relative
6 that may have been killed in this area?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a brief
9 digression, I do apologise to my colleague. On page 76, line 17, the
10 question was that I asked the witness whether he was aware of the fact
11 that the late Krsto had a relative who had been killed from Kravica. The
12 question wasn't from Kravica. The question was from Skelani. I don't
13 want to confuse the witness. So it was a relative from Skelani who died
14 in 1993. It wasn't a relative from Kravica.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. Yes, Mr. Thayer?
16 MR. THAYER:
17 Q. So my question, sir, is when did you first hear this information
18 or rumour that this Krle had had a relative who was killed at Kravica?
19 A. I couldn't say when exactly, but perhaps Krle himself said
20 something about a relative of his in Skelani who had been killed. As to
21 when this occurred, as to the year, I don't know, but it was during the
23 Q. Do you remember when you heard this information, sir?
24 A. I can't remember.
25 Q. Do you recall whether you ever shared this information with any
1 investigators or lawyers prior to your testimony today?
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. And, sir, did, to your knowledge, Mr. Cuturic have any relatives
4 that had been killed in Kravica that you're aware of? Did you ever hear
5 any information or rumours along those lines?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, you also testified sir that you had no information about any
8 of your detachment, in answer to a question from my friend, being involved
9 in the shooting of the prisoners in the Kravica warehouse; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you familiar, sir, with the nature of the indictment in the
13 case in which you testified in Sarajevo, which specifically charges
14 members of your detachment with those killings?
15 A. Yes. I'm familiar with that.
16 Q. Were you aware, sir, that members of your detachment implicated
17 themselves, that is confessed, that they participated in the shooting at
18 the warehouse? Did you ever hear that information?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I object to this kind of
21 question. This is factually incorrect. The trial before the BH court is
22 ongoing, the Prosecution is presenting its case, so if any of the accused
23 has confessed to this crime, well, this hasn't been achieved. All the
24 accused from various units are still on trial. So for these reasons, I
25 object to this form of question.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The position is we see plenty of value in the
3 submission made by Mr. Stojanovic, especially since this is an ongoing
4 trial, and therefore, insofar as you put a question which refers
5 specifically to a trial and the witnesses' testimony in that trial being a
6 trial that is still pending, I don't think it -- we don't believe that it
7 is proper for you to proceed that way. However, you can ask the witness
8 if he is aware, independently of this trial, and without reference to this
9 trial, whether he is aware that some members of the detachment actually
10 admitted to their participation in the events that you allege.
11 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I'll leave your question right there and
12 put that to the witness.
13 Q. Sir, did you understand His Honour's statement and the question
14 that he put?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And can you answer that question, sir?
17 A. I'm not aware of that.
18 Q. Then I have no further questions.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,
21 since this document has been used could I just put one question that has
22 to do with this document from the Bratunac health centre? It won't take
23 me more than a minute.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you want to ask the witness?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask
1 the witness a question about this document from the health centre, and
2 about the column that concerns another wounded individual who was
3 delivered at the same time from Kravica.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please tell us what the question is. You have
5 stated that already. What is your question? And then we decide whether
6 to allow it or not.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, the question would be:
8 After we show him the document, whether he knows Miroslav Stanojevic and
9 whether he knows that as a member of the Red Berets he was wounded in
10 Kravica and taken there to the health centre in Bratunac on that very same
11 day at 1730 hours. Perhaps he could just answer by saying yes or no.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Exceptionally, please, Mr. Pepic, if you
14 could answer that question.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know Miroslav Stanojevic.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it. That brings your testimony to an end,
17 Mr. Pepic. I wish to thank you for having come over to give testimony,
18 and on behalf of everyone I wish you a safe journey back home. We will
19 reconvene tomorrow in the morning with the next witness. Yes,
20 Mr. McCloskey?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, you will see that we have filed I
22 believe two motions for protective measures. It's a relatively minor
23 situation. For the next two witnesses. They both asked -- well, I'm sure
24 the one that I've spoken to had asked for facial distortion only. The
25 other one did in the last trial as well, so if we can confirm that we will
1 be passing that on to you as well. I don't know if the Defence -- I've
2 asked one or two of the Defences if they had any problem with it. It's
3 measures they had in the last trial.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In any case we'll have to decide that
6 We stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m., to
8 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of July 2007,
9 at 9.00 a.m.