1 Wednesday, 22 August 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody, and good morning, Madam
6 Registrar. Could you kindly call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. All the accused are here. From
10 the Defence teams, I only notice the absence of Mr. Ostojic. Prosecution
11 is Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls, and Mr. Vanderpuye.
12 Any preliminaries? We have incidentally in relation to the
13 videolink, we have received the response from the Nikolic Defence teams.
14 I understand that the Popovic one -- yes -- is being made available this
15 morning. We haven't read it of course. We'll go through it and come back
16 to you after the first break or during the second break.
17 Any preliminaries?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: This is about what was mentioned yesterday, I
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. I've spoken with my friends, Mr. Zivanovic,
22 yesterday and this morning. I think we have an agreement both sides are
23 going to proceed, we are all going to proceed in good faith and he will
24 withdraw his motion. I'm going to send him an e-mail before the first
25 break and he's going to read that, and then I think we will have this
1 issue resolved.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Nicholls and I thank you as
3 well, Mr. Zivanovic.
4 I think we can bring in the witness. Thank you.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Momcilovic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I also wish to welcome you to this Tribunal on
9 behalf of the Trial Chamber. You're about to start giving evidence very
10 soon. Madam Usher, will hand you a piece of paper with the text of a
11 solemn declaration that you are required to make before you start giving
12 evidence, and that is equivalent to an oath in some jurisdictions and it
13 is an undertaking that you will be testifying the truth. Please read it
14 out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: BOZO MOMCILOVIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please take a seat and make
20 yourself comfortable. You have met Mr. Vanderpuye already. He will be
21 the first one to go. He will ask you some questions for the
22 Prosecution -- on behalf of the Prosecution. He will then be followed by
23 members of the Defence teams on cross-examination.
24 If you keep your answers as precise and as concise as possible, I
25 hope that we'll be able to send you home very quickly.
1 Mr. Vanderpuye.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you,
3 Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.
4 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Momcilovic. Before we get started --
6 A. Good morning to you too.
7 Q. Before we get started, I just wanted to remind you of a couple of
8 things. The first would be to try to keep your voice up so that the
9 interpreters can hear you, and we can all follow what you're saying. The
10 second is to allow a short pause between question and answer so there is
11 time to translate or interpret what you said, and also, if there is
12 anything that I've asked you that's unclear to you, please feel free to
13 ask me to rephrase the question and I'll do my best to state it in a way
14 that is better understood by you.
15 As a --
16 A. Very well.
17 Q. Would you please state your full name for the record?
18 A. Bozo Momcilovic.
19 Q. Mr. Momcilovic, where were you born?
20 A. On the 25th of January 1962 in Opravdici Bratunac municipality.
21 Q. And where do you currently reside?
22 A. In Kravica village in Bratunac municipality.
23 Q. Can you briefly tell us what your educational background is?
24 A. I graduated from the school of economics in 1986 in Belgrade, and
25 I'm currently the head of finances and accountancy in the forestry
2 Q. How long have you been employed by the forestry service?
3 A. Since 1987.
4 Q. And in 1987, can you tell us whom you were employed by?
5 A. I started working in the brick works in Bratunac and I stayed
6 there until 1998, when I joined the forestry management services of
7 Srebrenica and, again, I repeat, I've been employed as the head of
8 finances. Between 1992 and 1994 I was the general manager of the
9 state-owned brick works in Bratunac.
10 Q. Have you received any military training?
11 A. Save for the compulsory military service in 1980, 1981, in the
12 former JNA, I did not receive any other military training. I served in
14 Q. Now, have you performed any work obligation?
15 A. Between 1992 and September 1994, I had work obligation as the
16 general manager or the acting director of the brick works. Then I was
17 mobilised and I joined the army.
18 Q. And when was your mobilisation to the army?
19 A. Around the end of September or the beginning of October 1994, I
20 joined the 1st Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade and at the beginning of
21 December I was transferred to the command of the Bratunac Brigade as the
22 logistics man.
23 Q. When you were first transferred to the Bratunac Brigade, to which
24 battalion were you transferred or to what unit in particular were you
1 A. I served in the 1st Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade, it was
2 mostly composed of the locals of Kravica village, and I was the assistant
3 commander for logistics.
4 Q. All right. And to whom did you report in this capacity?
5 A. I spent the very little time, maybe about a month or a month and a
6 half, and I worked with Lazo Ostojic, who was the battalion commander, he
7 was the first Lieutenant at the time. He was very young. He had just
8 graduated from the military academy, and as I've just said, I did not
9 spend much time there.
10 Q. And what were your duties and responsibilities, if you could just
11 briefly tell us?
12 A. Logistics, food, clothes, footwear, those would be the basic
13 duties I had with regard to the battalion.
14 Q. And what was your rank at the time?
15 A. The one that I got from the former army, as a Sergeant but I never
16 actually received any other ranks.
17 Q. Now, you said that you spent only a brief time in the
18 1st Battalion. You were then transferred to the command of the brigade.
19 And in what capacity did you serve out that tenure?
20 A. Pursuant to a decision of the brigade commander,
21 Colonel Ognjenovic, I was transferred to the logistics command to work
22 under Major Trisic to serve as the logistics man in the brigade.
23 Q. And do you recall what your specific title was?
24 A. Logistics means that it had to do with food, clothing and footwear
25 of the members of the Bratunac Brigade. We had a number of storages or
1 depots where this was all stored, and it was our duty to distribute all
2 those necessities to the troops who were in the field.
3 Q. Okay. Well, maybe I've miscommunicated the question. I was just
4 asking you if you remember what your specific title was as opposed to what
5 your duties were. If you don't, that's fine too.
6 A. I was the desk officer of the logistics with the Bratunac Brigade.
7 Q. And with respect to the duties that you had at that time, did you
8 have occasion to deal with the municipal authorities in Bratunac?
9 A. Yes. It was a common practice for the industry of Bratunac to
10 provide some of the supplies for the brigade. Maticic [phoen] would
11 attend the meetings of the municipality, sometimes it would even be the
12 brigade commander, and they would talk about the requirements of some
13 things such as cigarettes and other stuff, especially for the reception of
14 soldiers. I was the one who would later on collect stuff from the
15 companies who had made a commitment to our commander to provide certain
16 things such as fuel or cigarettes or such like.
17 Q. And how long did you remain in this particular position?
18 A. I remained there up to February 1996. I was demobilised and I
19 returned to the brick works, to my former position as the head of
21 Q. I just want to direct your attention to the beginning of July
22 1995, if I may, and ask you a few questions about that. Do you recall in
23 the beginning of July 1995 where you were assigned?
24 A. At the beginning of July 1995, pursuant to a decision of the
25 assistant commander for logistics of the Drina Corps, Colonel Acamovic, I
1 received an order to be transferred to the forward command post at
2 Pribicevac to coordinate the logistics there. Since I had been the desk
3 officer of the logistics at the Bratunac Brigade, they had estimated that
4 it would be a logical thing for the logistics man from the Bratunac
5 Brigade to go to the forward command post. On the 4th I received this
6 order and on the 5th I already arrived in Pribicevac.
7 Q. And do you recall what the order directed that you do there, your
8 duties or responsibilities?
9 A. Receipt of foodstuffs and distribution at the Pribicevac locality
10 for the troops who would be deployed in that area. In that area there
11 were troops not only from the Bratunac Brigade but also from the Zvornik
12 Brigade, from the Sekovici Brigade, and so on and so forth.
13 Q. All right. We will get to that in just a minute. But the order
14 that you received, was it an oral order, was it a written order?
15 A. It was a written order, and later on, it was forwarded
16 electronically to the Bratunac Brigade. I personally took the order on
17 the 4th in the corps command.
18 Q. And was the order directed to you or was it directed to your
19 superior, Major Trisic?
20 A. It was directed to the Bratunac Brigade, with an indication that I
21 should be transferred to the Pribicevac region. When I showed this to
22 Major Trisic, I realised that he had been already aware of that decision.
23 Q. All right. And -- all right. Now, you mentioned in your previous
24 answer that there were troops from Bratunac, from the Bratunac Brigade,
25 Zvornik Brigade, Sekovici Brigade and so on and so forth. And I just
1 wanted to get to the so on and so forth. Can you tell us what other units
2 were stationed or were in that vicinity at the time that you were there?
3 A. Well, there were the troops of the 3rd Battalion of the Bratunac
4 Brigade and also the workers battalion, meaning people who had work
5 obligation during that time but they spent two or three days in
6 Pribicevac, and then they were deployed in the Milici sector at which
7 point I lost all contact with them.
8 Q. Now, the troops that were deployed there, were they deployed there
9 in relation to the operations concerning Srebrenica?
10 A. Yes. Save for the 3rd Battalion, that was there all the time.
11 Q. And while you were there, from whom did you receive your orders?
12 A. I received my specific orders through the liaison officer,
13 Mr. Jevdjevic and General Krstic. They communicated to me the
14 requirements in terms of food, cigarettes, and other stuff.
15 Q. And were these orders communicated to you from General Krstic
16 directly or through the normal chain of command?
17 A. The normal chain of command, through the liaison officer.
18 Q. And in terms of -- through the liaison officer meaning
19 Mr. Jevdjevic, is that your understanding?
20 A. Jevdjevic, yes, yes, Jevdjevic.
21 Q. Now, did you have a commander of logistics at the IKM, the forward
22 command post of the Drina Corps?
23 A. The commander for logistics of the Drina Corps or the Bratunac
25 Q. Who was your specific commander while you were at the forward
1 command post?
2 A. At the IKM, there were no other officers for -- save for Krstic
3 and the liaison officer, Jevdjevic. I did not see anybody else.
4 Q. Okay. Did you receive any orders from Major Trisic during this
5 period of time?
6 A. No. They just provided support in terms of receiving food on the
7 ground. I did not receive any distribution orders from Major Trisic.
8 Q. And did you report to him at all?
9 A. I did not send any written reports. There was just one oral
10 exchange during the course of his visit to the Pribicevac sector.
11 Q. Did you have any direct dealings with Colonel Acamovic?
12 A. [No interpretation]
13 Q. Sorry, that didn't receive a translation.
14 A. No. Did not have any contacts with him. I did not receive any
15 orders from him either.
16 Q. Did you report to him?
17 A. No.
18 Q. All right. I just want to get into, if I could, another area
19 which is just the general for you to describe generally the area where the
20 IKM was located, and if you could, could you just tell us, to the best
21 that you can, how it was laid out, the number of buildings or the types of
22 buildings that were there?
23 A. It was a Serb village that was torched in 1992. All the houses
24 were destroyed. The 3rd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade arrived on the
25 lines in 1993, sometime in March, and they managed to adapt those
1 buildings to suit their needs, to protect them, and to locate their
2 command there, together with the logistics of the battalion. Those were
3 the only facilities made of so to say hard material. The logistics
4 command had their vehicles, and they put up tents during the operation
5 that took place in 1995. The diameter or the perimeter of all these
6 facilities was about 100 metres.
7 Q. And in terms of facilities, where did people sleep, where did
8 people eat, and from where was business normally conducted, that is
9 operations and things of that nature?
10 A. Save for the command of the 3rd Battalion and the logistics
11 personnel that were billeted in these facilities, the troops were deployed
12 along the lines where they had their trenches and that's where they were
14 Q. And in terms of the commanding officers, where exactly were they
15 housed and/or worked?
16 A. The commander of the 3rd Battalion had his office in Pribicevac.
17 It was a little room where he kept his papers. The liaison officer slept
18 with the troops in the tents. General Krstic never spent a night there.
19 He would arrive in the morning and leave in the evening.
20 Q. Was it the case that other officers also left at the end of the
21 day and came in the morning?
22 A. Those who visited General Krstic left. Nobody stayed. Only
23 Colonel Vukota, who stayed with the 3rd Battalion for a longer period of
24 time and who had been with the battalion before July 1995 spent more time
1 Q. Okay. Now, during the period of time that you were there, and
2 just so that the record is clear, let me ask you first when it is that you
3 left there and when it is that you got there so that we can establish that
4 for the record.
5 A. I arrived there on the 5th of July 1995, and I stayed until 11th
7 Q. All right. So during the period of time that you were there, was
8 it the case that there were people that visited the forward command post,
9 that were there to survey the general area of Srebrenica?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And is it possible to see Srebrenica or the -- or survey the
12 operation concerning Srebrenica from that location in Pribicevac?
13 A. You can see just one part of Srebrenica from that place, and the
14 operation could be surveyed because the location is high up. It is an
15 elevation point.
16 Q. Okay. If I could have in e-court please P02870. All right. If
17 we could just maybe blow this up a little bit?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which? Can you indicate exactly the part you would
19 like our staff to blow up for you, please?
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Just so that Srebrenica and, if you can see
21 Pribicevac on the right-hand side of the screen, are basically the top and
22 the bottom of the screen.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could make it that big. If we could make
25 it just a little bit bigger, I think? Okay. Great.
1 Q. Do you see that map before you, Mr. Momcilovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What I would like to do is have the witness mark the map, if
6 that's possible.
7 A. Pribicevac. What am I supposed to mark?
8 Q. I would just like you, if you can see it on the map, to indicate
9 where it is in the vicinity of Pribicevac you can see the operation or
10 Srebrenica, if you can indicate that on the map.
11 A. From the Pribicevac sector, from the elevation 01013, from
12 Divljakinje elevation 789, you can see Srebrenica because Srebrenica is in
13 a valley, and the valley is meandering, so there is no elevation from
14 which you can see the whole valley. The elevation points that I've
15 mentioned provide you a good view of certain parts of Srebrenica. There
16 was this Tucak hill close to Srebrenica and Biljeg, which is another
17 elevation point from which you can see different parts of Srebrenica. All
18 that is roughly along this red line.
19 Q. All right. Let me just, if we could zoom out just a minute or if
20 we can zoom out a little bit, I'll have him mark those particular areas.
21 If we could go down just a little so that Srebrenica is at the top of
22 the-- all right. Now, Mr. Momcilovic, I'd ask for you to mark with an X,
23 and if you could, a small arrow, pointing in the direction from which
24 you can -- the direction you can see for each of the locations that you've
1 A. From Bukova Glava and Tucak along the Cicevac [phoen] creek, you
2 can see one part of the Srebrenica canyon. From Pribicevac you can also
3 see the first part of Srebrenica from the entrance into the town and from
4 Kvarac, up there, and from Divljakinje you can see another part of
5 Srebrenica closer to the exit from Srebrenica. I know the area very well
6 because this is where -- the route I would take to get to work.
7 Q. What I would like you to do is actually write on the screen with
8 the pen you have in your hand, you can write on the screen, put an X at
9 the location and then a small arrow pointing the direction that can be
10 seen for each of the ones that you've mentioned.
11 A. [Marks]. Roughly here. And you can't see any further.
12 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with an elevation by the name of Javor?
13 A. Yes, but it is a bit further down from Bukova Glava and Tucak.
14 You can see the area in the vicinity of Srebrenica, but you can't see the
15 town itself because the view is prevented by Tucak. It is right before
16 Zeleni Jadar, in the direction of Skelani.
17 Q. All right. If I could, I'd like you to initial this drawing on
18 the bottom left hand corner and put today's date, please.
19 A. [Marks]. The 22nd?
20 Q. Yes. All right. Thank you, Mr. Momcilovic. I'd just like to
21 have this up on the screen for a little while longer. Could you tell us
22 approximately, with respect to the X that you placed next to March on the
23 top right-hand side of the screen, and the X that you placed next to Tucak
24 on the bottom right-hand side of the screen, approximately how far those
25 are respectively from Pribicevac?
1 A. The elevation point 1013 is maybe three to three and a half
2 kilometres away from it, not more. As Tucak hill, the elevation near
3 Bukova Glava, could be about five or six kilometres away.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Momcilovic. I'd like to take you to a different
5 area. Now, you've indicated before that while you were stationed at the
6 IKM, there were a number of units that were also present there or
7 stationed there. Were there any other units that arrived there or came
8 through there while you were assigned to that location?
9 A. The workers battalion arrived there and went through there. They
10 only stayed one day, I believe they left on the other day, and I don't
11 really know about other units. I haven't seen any apart from the units of
12 the Zvornik Brigade, but they had been there when I arrived.
13 Q. While you were there, did you see any high-ranking officers?
14 A. Yes, some would come.
15 Q. Well, did you see, for example, General Mladic, while you were
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And on how many occasions did you see General Mladic while you
19 were there?
20 A. A few times.
21 Q. Did you see General Zivanovic there?
22 A. Yes. He only came once.
23 Q. Okay. And did you see General Gvero there?
24 A. Yes. He only came once.
25 Q. And do you recall the specific circumstances under which he came?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Okay. Now, were you familiar with General Gvero in 1995, July?
3 A. I knew that he was the general in charge of morale in the army of
4 Republika Srpska, but I had never encountered him before.
5 Q. Had you ever seen him before?
6 A. Possibly on TV or in the newspapers but not in person.
7 Q. And what were the circumstances under which you saw him while you
8 were stationed at the IKM?
9 A. It was on the 9th of July, around noon. He arrived with my
10 commander, Major Trisic, and Mr. Davidovic, the president of the Executive
12 Q. And how is it that you remember that that occurred on the 9th of
14 A. Around about that day, the stage of the separation of the enclaves
15 of Zepa and Srebrenica was completed, and it was an event to remember.
16 That's why I still know that. It was a day or two before the end of my
18 Q. And what was it that you were doing at the time that they arrived?
19 A. At the moment when they arrive, I was doing my regular routines,
20 and the purpose of the visit of Major Trisic was to examine the situation
21 with regard to logistics, and the storage facilities were placed in front
22 of the general's quarters so it happened that I met Major Trisic.
23 Q. Did Major Trisic come there to see you specifically or was your
24 meeting a happenstance?
25 A. It was a happenstance. I wasn't even aware that he was coming to
2 Q. And had he visited you while you were at the forward command post
3 at any time prior to that?
4 A. You mean Major Trisic?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. No. That was only three or four days so that I had enough
8 Q. Now, at the time that General Gvero arrived with Mr. Davidovic and
9 Major Trisic, was there anybody else present, either with them or with
11 A. There was no one with them, and the guys from the 3rd Battalion
12 were with me. The assistant commander of the 3rd Battalion,
13 Dragoljub Ristic and his assistant Misa Davidovic, who was Davidovic's
15 Q. And did you have a conversation with Major Trisic at that time?
16 A. It was a very brief, purely informative conversation, about what
17 the situation was like, what we had, what we were lacking, no special
19 Q. And did you have any conversation with either General Gvero or
20 with Mr. Davidovic at that time?
21 A. Maybe a spontaneous exchange but nothing special. How are you
22 doing? How is life? Along those lines.
23 Q. And approximately how long were you in their presence?
24 A. Five minutes, maybe, not more.
25 Q. And following that period of time, where did -- what happened
1 after that?
2 A. The three of them went to see General Krstic, who was some 30
3 metres away. They saluted the general there and they sat down.
4 Q. And was General Krstic -- you say General Krstic was in his
5 quarters; is that right?
6 A. Well, they weren't really quarters. It was an improvised
7 facilities, some tables, chairs, in fact it was a tent.
8 Q. All right. And was there anybody else there at that time?
9 A. The liaison officer, Jevdjevic and Colonel Vukota who were in the
10 immediate vicinity of General Krstic.
11 Q. I'm sorry, the name of the Colonel again?
12 A. Colonel Vukota, I'm not sure of his exact name. I know him as
13 Colonel Vukota. Perhaps his real name was Vukovic, but we called him
14 Vukota and everybody knew him by that name or nickname.
15 Q. And were you able to observe what transpired when General Gvero,
16 Major Trisic went to the tent, what happened after they arrived there?
17 A. We saw them salute each other and sit down, and there were some
18 rookie soldiers there and they had a drink, et cetera, but we were in no
19 position to hear what they were talking about. We were too far away.
20 Q. And about how long were they together?
21 A. Well, my estimate is that it may have been about an hour, possibly
22 a few minutes longer, but not longer than an hour and a half.
23 Q. And did you have an opportunity to see when the meeting broke up
24 or when they separated?
25 A. When the meeting was over, they passed us by again. They had to
1 pass us by. And then they left.
2 Q. When they left did they leave together, or did they leave
4 A. No. They left together, as they had come together.
5 Q. And just so that we're clear on the record, since I haven't asked
6 you, who exactly left, and --
7 A. General Gvero, Major Trisic, and Mr. Davidovic.
8 Q. And when they left, did they leave in a vehicle, did they leave on
10 A. They had come in a vehicle that didn't enter our position, so I
11 didn't know where -- whether that same vehicle was waiting for them again
12 outside. I didn't see that.
13 Q. So you didn't have an opportunity to actually see them leave the
14 area where you were?
15 A. I did see when they left, but I don't know by which means of
16 transportation they left.
17 Q. Do you know which direction they went in?
18 A. They went toward Bratunac because there is no other direction to
19 take from up there.
20 Q. You mentioned that you saw General Gvero in the IKM while you were
21 there only one time.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know whether or not he was there only on that one occasion?
24 A. As far as I know that was the only time.
25 Q. Now, at the time that he was there, that you saw him there, was
1 General Mladic there?
2 A. No, he wasn't, only General Krstic.
3 Q. During your term there -- well, let me ask a different question.
4 Are you familiar with an individual by the name of Lieutenant-Colonel
6 A. I don't know him personally but I have heard of him.
7 Q. And what about a Colonel Beara?
8 A. The same applies to him.
9 Q. And were you familiar with them in early July 1995?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Have you seen either of them before early July 1995?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And did you see them at the forward command post while you were
15 A. Yes, once, with the late Miroslav Deronjic.
16 Q. And what were the circumstances under which you saw them?
17 A. I think that they came by to see the view from Pribicevac. Apart
18 from that I don't know the purpose of their visit.
19 Q. Okay. Did they meet with anybody while they were there?
20 A. I was in no position to see that because I had my own work to do,
21 so I didn't welcome them or greet them or anything.
22 Q. Okay. Did you have any contact with Mr. Deronjic while he was
23 there with them?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, if you hadn't seen either before, how did you know it was
1 them that you saw then?
2 A. I had heard from people who knew them, because I personally didn't
3 know either of them. They said, the people -- the others were talking
4 about two guys arriving with Deronjic and Popovic. I knew Deronjic
5 because he was a teacher when I -- when I was a student.
6 Q. The guys who mentioned whom these two men were, did they tell you
7 anything about them?
8 A. People were saying that they were security officers. I don't know
9 about these things, and so even today I don't know what security officers
11 Q. Well, did you have an opportunity to see them at any other time,
12 either in person or in the media or in some other way?
13 A. No. I have never seen them since, except perhaps on TV.
14 Q. And in terms of who you saw on TV, does that correspond with what
15 your recollection or memory was of the people that you saw in July of
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Excuse me but he didn't say that he saw them. He
19 said that he perhaps saw them.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Except when he says "except perhaps on TV," this is
21 what he actually said. Did you see them on TV or didn't you see them on
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them at Pribicevac, and I also
1 saw them on TV later.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: So at that point, I think we can proceed.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Because my -- anyway, let's leave it because to me,
5 "except perhaps on TV," basically meant that he saw them on TV.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand my friend's objection.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Even though strictly speaking the English way of
8 putting it would allow for some doubt, but he's eliminated that now.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE:
10 Q. All right. My question to you was whether or not who you saw on
11 TV corresponded with your memory or your recollection of who you saw then
12 in July?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him be specific. Let's go one by one.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with General Gvero, please. Did you see
16 General Gvero on TV?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So then please proceed with your question.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE:
20 Q. My question actually related to Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic. With
21 respect to Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, did you see him on TV?
22 A. Most probably, yes.
23 Q. And with respect to Colonel Beara, did you see him on TV?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And after having seen them on TV, do you have any doubt as to whom
1 you saw in July 1995, that is whether it was Colonel Beara and
2 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. And did you have occasion -- well, let me rephrase -- let me ask a
5 different question. Do you recall when it was that you saw?
6 A. According to my memory, it may have been on the day of the bombing
7 of the NATO forces in the area around Pribicevac. So around -- around the
8 11th of July 1995.
9 Q. Is there any special reason why it is you remember having seen
11 A. There is no special reason, but I think that it was -- that is
12 when it was because on that day, my job at IKM was finished, and nobody
13 else came later on. We moved to Bratunac and arrived there in the evening
15 Q. After your job was finished and you returned to Bratunac, did you
16 return to the brigade command where you'd been originally stationed?
17 A. Yes. I returned and reported to Major Trisic, and I went to see
18 my family.
19 Q. And when was it that you actually returned to duty at the brigade
21 A. On the 15th or 16th. I'm not sure. It probably it was the 16th.
22 I was away for three or four days, and I continued to work in the area of
23 logistics. I had no special assignments.
24 Q. If we could just go into private session for a moment,
25 Mr. President?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, let's go into private session, please.
2 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Just bear with me for a moment.
4 Q. All right, Mr. Momcilovic, thank you very much. I have no further
5 questions for you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I have a revised estimate from everybody?
11 Mr. Zivanovic, you have indicated or you had requested 40 minutes.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Now we'll reduce it. 15 minutes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Ostojic for Mr. Beara -- for the
14 record now, I didn't want to interrupt the testimony of the witness, but
15 Mr. Ostojic entered the courtroom soon after the testimony of the witness
16 started. Yes, Mr. Ostojic?
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President, I apologise for coming
18 late. We still have about 45 minutes, I believe.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Nikolic? You had requested ten
21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, ten to 15 minutes
22 at the most.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Stojanovic?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We announced ten minutes, Your
25 Honours, and we'll adhere to that.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. Fauveau?
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have modified our
3 request and after having heard the witness, we have decided not to
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. Mr. Krgovic?
6 MR. KRGOVIC: Half an hour, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Haynes?
8 MR. HAYNES: Nothing, thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: That basically should leave us time also to start
10 with the next witness. Where is Mr. McCloskey? I can't see him behind
11 there. That should leave us time to start with the next witness.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That witness should be available.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I just wanted to alert you to
14 that. All right. Mr. Krgovic.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Momcilovic.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. The Defence of the general would like to ask some questions about
20 your testimony today. Since the two of us speak the same language, I
21 would like to ask you to wait for the interpretation before you answer so
22 that there is no overlapping for the sake of the interpretation.
23 A. All right.
24 Q. In your testimony today, you said from the 5th until the 11th of
25 July, you were at the forward command post of Pribicevac, is that so?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. These units that you mentioned in the examination-in-chief, the
3 workers brigade, the part of the Zvornik Brigade and others, they are all
4 parts of the Drina Corps, is that so?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. As far as you know, only these units took part in the Srebrenica
8 A. Yes, at least in the area where I was.
9 Q. The operations of the Drina Corps were commanded by
10 General Krstic; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. And you were at a place from which you were able to see how he was
13 commanding and leading the operation?
14 A. Yes. It was in the immediate vicinity so I could.
15 Q. Nobody else assisted General Krstic apart from the officers you
16 saw during the conduct of the operation?
17 A. Apart from the liaison officer, Jevdjevic, and Colonel Vukota, I
18 saw nobody else.
19 Q. Nobody came from outside to take over command, to give orders to
20 the units, and to interfere with the commanding duties of General Krstic,
21 as far as you were able to see, is that so?
22 A. Yes. There were some informative visits only.
23 Q. From the position where you were, you were able to follow the
24 conduct of the Srebrenica operation, is that so?
25 A. Yes. I was able to see well.
1 Q. During that period of your stay at the forward command post, the
2 town of Srebrenica, was it shelled by the artillery?
3 A. No. There was no shelling, no artillery shelling, because I work
4 in that town now.
5 Q. Did you know about an order about the manner of conducting the
6 operation against Srebrenica by General Krstic?
7 A. As far as I know, there was a ban on shelling in order to spare
8 the civilians. We are talking about an area that was three or four
9 kilometres deep.
10 Q. Let me ask you something about the stay of General Gvero at the
11 IKM in Pribicevac. When general Gvero came, did you hear him say where
12 from he had arrived?
13 A. I don't know where he came from, when he came from Mr. Davidovic
14 and Major Trisic. We received some printed matter at the time, some
15 newspapers at the time. You could not buy any magazines or newspapers in
16 Bratunac at the time. All of those were Belgrade editions, so I suppose
17 that he had come from there. I did not hear the conversation, but it was
18 only logical that the general would bring all that printed matter because
19 he was in charge of the morale of the troops.
20 Q. I apologise. Something has not been translated and not recorded
21 in the transcript. You received it?
22 A. Yes, we received the printed matter when the three of them came,
23 Davidovic and Trisic did not have any where to buy newspapers and
24 magazines in Bratunac. I suppose that it was general Gvero who had
25 obtained these magazines and brought them to the IKM.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I have the feeling that we are going too fast.
2 Gauging from the speed the interpreters are translating, we are going too
4 Mr. Momcilovic, if you could, please, and you too, Mr. Krgovic,
5 allow a short pause between question and answer. The reason is that we
6 don't understand your language, and you both speak the same language. So
7 the interpreters who are translating to us in English and French have to
8 catch up with what you are saying and translate, and while they are
9 translating, you continue talking. So that makes it difficult for them.
10 Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Sir, you have heard the words of the Honourable Judge. Let's both
14 of us make sure to observe those words. What printed matter are we
15 talking about? What newspapers was it? Dailies, the usual dailies or
16 something else?
17 A. The dailies, daily newspapers.
18 Q. Mr. Momcilovic, you have just described for us when the Prosecutor
19 showed you the elevations from which you could observe Srebrenica,
20 General Gvero did not go to those elevation points to observe Srebrenica,
21 to see the town, on the occasion when he visited the IKM; is that
22 correct? He just sat down on the benches together with General Krstic; is
23 that correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Just one more thing. What is the procedure, what was the
1 procedure, rather, when high-ranking officer came at the IKM? Was he
2 supposed to report to somebody, to inform them that he had arrived and
3 where he was? Do you know what I'm saying?
4 A. As far as I know, and judging from the common practice of the
5 Bratunac Brigade, including the Pribicevac IKM, almost all officers who
6 arrived at the Pribicevac sector or the command would normally report to
7 the base, to somebody there. The liaison officer was at their disposal,
8 and I suppose that almost everybody, not"almost," but everybody reported
9 to him.
10 Q. Was officer Jevdzevic present at the time?
11 A. Yes, he was.
12 Q. Did you see Gvero addressing Jevdzevic at the time?
13 A. Yes. Jevdzevic was present during that meeting.
14 Q. Can you please repeat slowly the name of this officer?
15 A. Jevdzevic.
16 Q. Could you please spell?
17 A. J-E-V-D-Z-E-V-I-C.
18 Q. At the time when General Gvero stayed at Pribicevac, in that area,
19 there was no fighting; would I be correct in saying this?
20 A. The separation of Zepa and Srebrenica enclaves had already been
21 completed and there was no operation going on during that period of time.
22 Q. From the place where you were, did you see General Gvero and
23 Krstic moving away from Trisic, or were they together all the time?
24 A. They were together all the time, all of them.
25 Q. Just for the transcript, here in the transcript, it says that "he
1 moved away from Trisic." Just to be clear, you have just told us that not
2 for a single moment did General Gvero and General Gvero separate from the
4 A. Yes, that's correct. From Davidovic, Trisic, Jukota [phoen],
5 Jevdzevic, they were together all the time.
6 Q. Again, the transcript is incorrect. General Gvero and
7 General Krstic did not separate from the others, is that what you've just
8 told us?
9 A. Yes, they did not separate from the others.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe this is a
11 convenient moment for a break. I will have no further questions unless,
12 after consultations with my client, I am instructed otherwise. In that
13 case, I might have some questions after the break.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we can have the break now. In the
15 meantime, Mr. Krgovic is to be allowed -- I'm addressing the security, is
16 to be allowed a short time, an opportunity, to consult with his client
17 before they are -- so we'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.
18 Thank you.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Krgovic, you had to update us, whether you
22 wish to put further questions.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Krgovic.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Momcilovic. I have
1 no further questions for you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Who wishes to go second? Yes, Mr. Ostojic?
4 MR. OSTOJIC: I would like to, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you introduce yourself to -- with the witness,
7 MR. OSTOJIC: I will.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:
9 Q. Mr. Momcilovic my name is John Ostojic and I represent Mr. Ljubisa
10 Beara. Good morning.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions here to clarify some of your
13 testimony, sir, and to you as I did to the Court, I apologise for coming
14 late this morning. But I read what you said earlier, so I think we can
15 proceed. But I apologise for coming late before you started to testify.
16 Sir, let me ask you this: When did -- your commander in the Drina Corps,
17 who was it?
18 A. In the Drina Corps?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. The commander of my Bratunac Brigade was General Blagojevic and
21 the corps commander was General Krstic.
22 Q. Now, when did you move from the Bratunac Brigade to the
23 Drina Corps? What was the exact date, if you remember?
24 A. The Bratunac Brigade was part of the Drina Corps, and pursuant to
25 Colonel Acamovic's order, the assistant commander of General Krstic for
1 logistics, I was transferred on the 4th of July and already on the 5th I
2 was in the Pribicevac sector.
3 Q. The commander according to your recollection of the Drina Corps on
4 or about the 5th of July 1995?
5 A. As far as I know, there was a shake-up involving General Krstic
6 and General Zivanovic. I don't know when. When I arrived at the IKM,
7 General Krstic was there.
8 Q. So according to you, sir, when you came to the IKM, on the 5th of
9 July 1995, General Krstic was already appointed as the commander of the
10 Drina Corps, correct?
11 A. I don't know whether he had been appointed. He was at the
12 Pribicevac IKM.
13 Q. And sir, you were at the IKM for, as you say, approximately six
14 days from July 5th through July 11th, 1995, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is it your testimony that when you left the IKM on July 11th,
17 1995, that you left because the Srebrenica and Zepa separation of the
18 enclave was already complete? Is that what you're telling us?
19 A. The separation was completed, and the Serb forces had entered
21 Q. But when did they take over Srebrenica? Do you remember the date?
22 A. On the 11th in the evening or late in the afternoon.
23 Q. And who ordered you to leave the IKM on the 11th?
24 A. When General Krstic left the IKM, we received an order from the
25 liaison officer to pack everything and to return everything to the
1 logistics base in Bratunac because everybody was moving from the IKM in
3 Q. So the day Srebrenica falls, is it your testimony then that
4 evening you went basically on a four or five day vacation or leave? Is
5 that correct?
6 A. I did not say that. I visited my family in Osamsko. I went to
7 see my in laws because they had fled Kravica. I stayed there for four or
8 five days. There were no particular assignments. During that period of
9 time, so I spent those four or five days with my family, with my in laws,
10 my wife, and my children.
11 Q. So you're one of the persons who is in charge or had some
12 responsibility for logistics of the rear services of Drina Corps, and the
13 Serbs just take over Srebrenica, if you will, Zepa doesn't happen yet,
14 correct, until after Srebrenica, is that true?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So at that point you leave from the 11th to the 15th? You're not
17 around to assist your fellow soldiers or your fellow men while they're
18 taking over Srebrenica? Do you know what happened after the 11th through
19 the 15th of July 1995?
20 A. I was the quartermaster of the Bratunac Brigade. I was in charge
21 of the cigarettes, food, the clothes, and footwear. During that period of
22 time, I had Officer Cvijetinovic who was in charge of all the current
23 affairs in the Bratunac Brigade, and all the other units were supplied in
24 their own way. All this allowed me to be absent for four or five days
25 from that place.
1 Q. Well, do you know what happened from July 11th through July 15th,
2 1995, while you were gone?
3 A. I wasn't around during those four or five days.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, couldn't you be more specific as to
5 location at least?
6 MR. OSTOJIC: I am. I will.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. I was getting to that. Sir, so I know your testimony is you were
10 in the IKM. Afterwards, where did you come, when you came back on the
11 15th, where did you go to, what place?
12 A. To the rear of the Bratunac Brigade. I went back to my workplace,
13 to my storages, and I went back to my regular duties. When this was done,
14 that meant that the order for me to stay at the IKM expired and I returned
15 back under the command of Major Trisic.
16 Q. And you came back to Bratunac, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now I just want to ask you, do you know anything that may have
19 occurred from July 11th through July 15th, 1995 in Potocari? Have you
20 ever heard of that village or town?
21 A. I know the town but I didn't go up there, and I really don't know.
22 I only know the hearsay, but I never went there myself.
23 Q. How about anything that may have happened in Bratunac after
24 July 15th, 1995? Did you learn about any Muslim prisoners being detained
25 or held in Bratunac in 1995, July 15th, for example?
1 A. I was in my storages and my depots. I did not leave them. I
2 didn't go anywhere. I don't know whether anything happened or what
3 happened. I know that the civilian population was being transferred in
4 the direction of Tuzla, but I really don't know what, when, how.
5 Q. Now, you mentioned a gentleman by the name of Srbislav Davidovic.
6 Can you tell me what your relationship, if any, is with him? Are you
7 friends, are you neighbours, both?
8 A. We are not neighbours. I know the man.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I think that part was heard in private
10 session. Judge Kwon is drawing my attention.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: It's a general question and I recognise -- I don't
12 want to elaborate in public, open session, but I can in private, if the
13 Court wishes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye?
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Your Honours. I think it's in an
16 abundance of caution we should proceed in private session, but I think the
17 general nature of the question at this point is okay.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any further questions? I mean I have to
19 ask you.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, and I do, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Then why don't we go straight into private session.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough, if the Court allows.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 14102-14103 redacted. Private session
18 [Open session]
19 MR. OSTOJIC:
20 Q. Sir, we are back in public session. And you testified in the
21 Momir Nikolic sentencing hearing, correct?
22 A. I was a defence witness. I was a character witness. They asked
23 me whether I knew him before 1992, after 1996. It was in open session.
24 Momir Nikolic resided very close to my wife. I know him from when we were
25 children. He wanted me to testify on his behalf and I did.
1 Q. He was actually a neighbour of yours, your house was right -- his
2 house was right next door to your parents' house, correct?
3 A. No. Not my parents. Momir Nikolic, we are talking about? His
4 house was about eight or nine kilometres away from mine.
5 Q. And have you testified or offered to be a Defence witness for any
6 other accused other than Momir Nikolic for his character?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Well, for who?
9 A. Colonel Blagojevic. I was a quartermaster in his brigade.
10 Q. We know that. But I didn't really get a full appreciation. You
11 were also going to testify, and you gave a written statement for the
12 Defence of Colonel Blagojevic as well, correct?
13 A. Yes. And that statement was confirmed by the representatives of
14 the Tribunal in Bratunac. They acknowledged that what I stated at the
15 time, I was willing to repeat in court, and they took my statement as
17 Q. And I read your statement and let me understand it because I know
18 you were gone from the 11th through the 15th and don't know what happened
19 in Potocari, Bratunac, or anywhere in that area. Isn't it true that in
20 your statement for Mr. Blagojevic, you affirmatively state you never saw
21 Mr. Blagojevic or Colonel Blagojevic anywhere around in the Bratunac area,
22 correct? Or in the IKM, correct?
23 A. Not correct. I did not see him, but during that period of time I
24 did not have any contacts with Colonel Blagojevic because he was far away
25 from my IKM and after the 11th I wasn't there. I wasn't there between the
1 11th and the 16th, so there was no way for me to see him at all.
2 Q. What about prior to the 11th? Did you see him at all at the IKM,
4 A. He arrived either on the 6th or on some other date, I don't know
5 exactly when, together with the signals soldier. He made rounds of some
6 parts of our units. I don't know where he went, who he saw, but after
7 that I did not see him.
8 Q. Sir, let me ask you a little bit about Bratunac area and can you
9 tell me where -- how far is Kravica is from Bratunac?
10 A. 12 kilometres.
11 Q. And your family used to live there, correct, sir?
12 A. Before 1992, they did, and after 1996.
13 Q. And what happened in 1992 that your family had to move from
15 A. Kravica is a small village, which was encircled by a Muslim
16 population, for their own safety my wife and my children as well as other
17 women and children left the area of Kravica. Only my father and my mother
18 remained there until Christmas 1993. And after that, my mother moved to
19 Bratunac and my father was killed on the -- that day in a Muslim attack
20 against our village.
21 Q. Well, I have, sir, with all due respect, that your father was
22 killed on the 17th of March, 1993, correct, that the attack on Kravica by
23 the Muslims was on the 7th of January 1993.
24 A. No. My father was killed on the 17th of January and his body was
25 found on the 17th of March, when the village was liberated, i.e. when the
1 Serb forces entered the village of Kravica.
2 Q. I'm sorry about that, accept my sympathies, and I apologise for
3 having to ask you. I'm curious to know, though, the people in the Kravica
4 village there, where did most of them go to? Where did they leave and
5 live after the village was attacked and taken over by the Muslims in 1992?
6 A. Many people came to Bratunac and settled where they could in the
7 free area. Some left for Serbia and never returned to the village
8 afterwards. So that now half of the population of the village is gone.
9 Q. Thank you for that. Sir, did you ever discuss your upcoming
10 testify with Dragoslav Trisic?
11 A. I have known Mr. Trisic since '87 because I worked for a company
12 which -- in which the manager was his brother, so we've known each other
13 for a long time. We may have touched upon this issue talking about
14 something else.
15 Q. When?
16 A. I couldn't tell you for sure. We see each other rather often
17 because we are in the same line of business. His wife and I run some
18 agency, so we meet over business too.
19 Q. Well, do you know if he ever testified in any case here in the
20 ICTY, the Tribunal?
21 A. I believe that he did.
22 Q. Do you know that he testified in -- do you know which case he
23 testified in?
24 A. I think it was the trial of Colonel Blagojevic.
25 Q. And, sir, do you know if -- and I forgot to ask you this and I
1 apologise, when you met with OTP's investigator, did they take notes when
2 they talked to you?
3 A. No. They only referred to my statement that I gave in the context
4 of the Blagojevic trial, and they said that I might be become a
5 Prosecution witness in some coming trial, but they didn't take any notes.
6 Q. Do you know if they recorded your statement, if they didn't, or do
7 you recall?
8 A. Believe me, I don't know. I have a typed -- the typed statement
9 given for the Blagojevic trial. That's about all I know.
10 Q. Now, how long was your interview with Mr. Blaszczyk?
11 A. With the investigator?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Half an hour, maybe -- it was more about private issues, where I
14 lived, what I did. I think that we met in my office in Bratunac.
15 Q. Now, in reviewing your statement before you testified today, with
16 my learned friend Mr. Vanderpuye, did he also show you other transcripts
17 or -- of other witnesses?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did he share with you what other witnesses said during your
20 interview with him?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know that in the statement that you gave to Mr. -- or to
23 Colonel Blagojevic in 2004, April 8th, that you don't have any of the
24 dates that -- as so when you claim you saw Mr. Beara? Do you realise
1 A. I know that statement, but they never asked me about any
2 details,. So I gave just a general statements, but nobody asked me about
3 any dates when I was giving my statement for the Blagojevic trial.
4 Q. Well, how long was your meeting with the Blagojevic Defence team
5 in preparation for your statement?
6 A. I don't know. It was one day. But I didn't really -- time didn't
7 mean much to me so I don't remember.
8 Q. How did the Blagojevic team get to know you? How did they
9 approach you? Did someone tell them, "You should go speak to
10 Mr. Momcilovic"?
11 A. Many of us met Mr. Lugonic there, who was one of the investigators
12 in the Blagojevic trial. It was -- we met him by chance, and when he was
13 looking for witnesses for the Blagojevic trial, he was able -- he could
14 find as many as he wanted.
15 Q. Okay. How many times did you meet with them? Once only or more
16 than once?
17 A. Once, I believe, and the second meeting was informal.
18 Q. How do you remember, sir, I'm curious to know, 12 years after this
19 sighting of Mr. Beara, that you saw him on a specific date, but you don't
20 know anything that may have occurred in other parts of the town where you
21 grew up and lived? Can you explain that to me?
22 A. I don't know how, I don't know what happened, and I don't
23 understand the second part of your question.
24 Q. Well, the point of my question, sir, is how do you know as you sit
25 here today that you purportedly saw Mr. Beara on July 11th, 1995, as
1 opposed to in 1993 or 1996 or at no time? How do you remember that
2 specific date, July 11th, 1995?
3 A. I remember because he came with Mr. Deronjic and that was more or
4 less the same day of my stay at the IKM. I saw them very briefly. I
5 don't know where they went afterward, because that was the day when our
6 job at the IKM was completed.
7 Q. Now, when did you see Mr. Beara's image on TV?
8 A. I couldn't tell you exactly.
9 Q. Well, do you know if it was sometime in 1995 or 1996?
10 A. It may have been in late 1995 or in 1996. I don't know for sure.
11 Q. Sir, I'm suggesting to you that that's impossible because there
12 was no image that was broadcast whatsoever of Mr. Beara at that time up
13 until the year 2000. Do you realise that?
14 A. I don't know. Could be. I told you I didn't remember exactly.
15 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that you did not see Mr. Beara at the IKM
16 on July 11th, 1995, and that it is absolutely not accurate, your testimony
17 that you saw him for those few minutes that you claim you did. Would I be
19 A. I don't agree with you.
20 Q. Sir, you said that you didn't know Mr. Beara before and you never
21 saw him after. Who told you that the person purportedly at the IKM was
22 Mr. Beara?
23 A. He arrived with the late Miroslav Deronjic and someone who was
24 around knew that those people were the two of them.
25 Q. Well, who? That's what I'm asking you. Who told you? Your
1 memory seems to be accurate for dates. Now, tell me who told you that
2 Mr. Beara was at the IKM.
3 A. Someone present at Pribicevac. I couldn't give you the name now.
4 There were many soldiers there. Somebody did know them.
5 Q. How many times did Davidovic visit the IKM when you were there in
6 July of 1995?
7 A. I remember only one occasion.
8 Q. How many times did Deronjic visit the IKM in 1995?
9 A. I saw him only once.
10 Q. This forward command post, sir, did they have to the best of your
11 knowledge a logbook to write in who would be coming in and out of that
13 A. No.
14 Q. They didn't?
15 A. That was not an area that was rather which there was a fence. It
16 was an open camp and around it there were woods.
17 Q. Now, sir, let me ask you this: You know Mr. Momir Nikolic. Do
18 you know what his job was in Bratunac in July of 1995? Do you know what
19 position he held?
20 A. He was head of security for the Bratunac Brigade.
21 Q. And you know, sir, because on page 20 today on lines 12 through 14
22 here is what you said, "I don't know about these things, and so even today
23 I don't know what security officers do." So what I'm trying to figure out
24 is if Momir Nikolic was a friend of yours, and if you came to testify on
25 his behalf as a character witness, which we know you did on October 27th,
1 2003, how do you say that you don't know what security officers do? Did
2 you ever discuss with Momir Nikolic what he does?
3 A. I was a quartermaster. And the office of the head of security was
4 next door, but we -- I don't really know about these things. We never
5 spoke about that, and he wasn't a man who would speak about these things.
6 At least not to people for whom it didn't matter what he did. So if you
7 were to ask me what security officers do, even now I couldn't answer. I
8 was a quartermaster because I had a training in economy and that's what I
10 Q. And I know you're a quartermaster, I'm not suggesting that you
11 were anything else at that time, but I'm curious to know, here is a
12 childhood friend, a school friend, a neighbour or his family -- is
13 neighbours with your wife's family as you so testified in October of 2003.
14 Did Momir Nikolic ever tell you what happened in Bratunac in July of 1995
15 with the Muslims from Srebrenica? Did he ever talk to you about that?
16 A. No. He really spoke very little about the -- about -- after those
17 events. We more spoke about fishing and other things.
18 Q. What about with Mr. Deronjic? Did you talk to him about the
19 events as they unfolded in July of 1995 or as with Mr. Nikolic, you just
20 talked about fishing?
21 A. I know Mr. Deronjic but we are not close friends. So we don't
22 socialise. We may have had a drink occasionally. He had -- he socialised
23 with other people. So I didn't have much contact with Colonel Deronjic.
24 Q. Well, it says Colonel Deronjic. I don't know if you said Colonel.
25 I think Mr. Deronjic, or if you think he's a Colonel, that's fine.
1 A. No, no. No, no. Not Colonel. Mr. Deronjic.
2 Q. It was in the transcript. I didn't think you said it, but it was
3 in the transcript so thank you for that. Sir, did you discuss with --
4 strike that. Did you ever join the SDS party?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know what party Mr. Davidovic is in?
7 A. I think he's an SDS member.
8 Q. Are you a member or were you a member of any party in 1995,
9 political party?
10 A. No. Only in 1996 I was a member of the SPS, the Communist Party,
11 for a while.
12 Q. Now, I want to go back to this purported sighting of Mr. Beara at
13 the IKM, and you stated that you don't know the purpose of the visit,
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And you said that they came to see the view, the panoramic view,
17 from the IKM, correct?
18 A. That is my assessment of the purpose.
19 Q. What I'd like to know, sir, is how often or how far were -- was
20 the place where you allegedly saw Mr. Beara from where the IKM is located.
21 Is it one building, is it one office?
22 A. No. Not buildings. There are some 30 metres of open space to the
23 command post which is somewhat higher up.
24 Q. Well, just help me understand it, and we'll get the map out.
25 What's 30 metres away? The command post is 30 metres away from where your
1 living quarters were or from where you were stationed?
2 A. The command post was 30 metres removed from the place where they
3 were looking at the panorama, and our quarters were some 20 metres from
4 the command post.
5 Q. Now, and you say that you purportedly saw Mr. Beara on the day of
6 the NATO bombing, correct?
7 A. Yes. I think it was the 11th.
8 Q. And it's that same day that you went to see your in laws, correct?
9 A. On that day, in the evening, the arrangements at the IKM were
10 completed, and the entire rear was moved from IKM to Bratunac. That was
11 in the morning. And in the evening hours, around 11.00 or 12.00 p.m., we
12 moved to Bratunac from the IKM.
13 Q. I got that and I got the quartermaster part. What I don't
14 understand is this, sir: Where was NATO bombing on that day? Where were
15 they bombing?
16 A. The positions of the Serbian forces in the surroundings of
17 Srebrenica, two times. One position was a rather close, to the command
18 post, some 200 or 300 metres away, and the other position was closer to
20 Q. So one position was closer to the command post where you were at,
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And if they are bombing that day, sir, I find it incredible that
24 you would then get up and leave your fellow troops and then go visit your
25 in-laws in some other place for four or five days. You didn't stick
1 around to see if the bombing would continue the next day or the next
2 evening or the next three or four days given specifically because some of
3 the bombing was very close to your very own command post? Is that really
4 true, Mr. Momcilovic?
5 A. Sir, on that day, the Srebrenica operation was completed, so the
6 Serbian forces had entered Srebrenica and the IKM was closed down and we
7 moved to Bratunac. There were no more operations conducted from that
8 position. That's why we moved from the IKM to Bratunac because the
9 operation was completed on the 11th.
10 Q. Well, who informed you sir that NATO wouldn't keep bombing on the
11 12th or 13th or 18th of July?
12 A. No one informed us. But the IKM was closed down. The command and
13 General Krstic and communications, they were all moved, and we received
14 instructions to move the entire rear of the Bratunac Brigade. And after
15 that nobody stayed there.
16 Q. Sir, let me ask you this: Those four or five days that you took
17 to see your family and your in laws, what time was that in?
18 A. I left on the 12th, after packing the equipment that was removed
19 from the IKM to the storage facilities and I went to see my children and
20 Sergeant Cvijetinovic did the packing and there was enough time for me to
21 be away for some three or four days. My children were still little at the
23 Q. I appreciate that. I have children as well. All I want to know
24 is the name of the town. What town did you go to?
25 A. Osamsko which is some ten kilometres from Bratunac on the banks of
1 the Drina. My father-in-law has a house there and that's where they were
3 Q. I just want to clarify this. Did the NATO bombing occur before or
4 after you supposedly or purportedly met Mr. Beara?
5 A. There were two bombings, so I think that in between they may have
6 been up there.
7 Q. What time --
8 A. I don't know for sure. I'm not certain when it was. But it was
9 on that day. The two bombings took place on the same day and that was
10 all. There was no more.
11 Q. Now, did Mr. Beara come there by a vehicle, do you remember?
12 A. I don't know how they arrived, nor when they left, because the
13 vehicles wouldn't enter the premises.
14 Q. Do you remember, sir, what he was wearing at the time purportedly?
15 A. What do you mean?
16 Q. Was he wearing civilian clothes, military clothes, the type of
17 military clothes, if you so recall?
18 A. I'm not sure.
19 Q. Sir, do you remember if he wore anything on his head, like a hat
20 or a cap?
21 A. I don't remember. It was a long time ago.
22 Q. As you sit here can you describe what he looked like as you recall
23 him on that purported day in between the bombings between NATO when he
25 A. I'm saying to you that Mr. Beara and Mr. Popovic were with
1 Mr. Deronjic, and I remember Mr. Deronjic, whom I had known, and the other
2 two I hadn't known before. I remember that Mr. Deronjic was somewhat
3 taller and had grey hair as compared to Mr. Popovic, but you know people
4 change. I wouldn't know myself now, because at the time I weighed 85
5 kilos, now I weigh 110.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: I just see in the record at line 14, page 51,
8 there is a reference to Mr. Deronjic as compared to Mr. Popovic, and I'm
9 not sure that's responsive to the question, or an accurate reflection of
10 the answer that the witness gave.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, those are two things that you raise basically.
12 The first one I would tend to agree with you. As regards the second, on
13 what basis are you maintaining that it's not an accurate reflection of the
14 answer that the witness gave? If someone could explain.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: I could if you like. I think the witness did say
16 Mr. Deronjic, so it's not inaccurate. But I was going to clarify it, and
17 I'll just ask was he referring to Mr. Deronjic or someone else.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed.
19 MR. OSTOJIC:
20 Q. Sir, I asked to you describe, or I'm asking to you describe
21 Mr. Beara a little bit, and in the record for some reason you started to
22 describe a person and it was written or referenced Mr. Deronjic was, I
23 think, somewhat taller, somewhat taller and had grey a hair as compared to
24 Mr. Popovic. And just so the record is clear, who were you referring to?
25 A. No. That's not what I said. I had known Deronjic well, and there
1 were two others with him, and one of them had grey hair. I was referring
2 to one of the others and not to Deronjic. And they say that this other
3 man was Mr. Beara. And I never really met Mr. Beara as well.
4 Q. And how much taller was Mr. Beara than Mr. Deronjic, do you
5 remember? If at all?
6 A. They are about the same height.
7 Q. And how much taller was Mr. Beara than the other gentleman that
8 you claim was Mr. Popovic? You say he was somewhat taller. Can you be
9 more specific?
10 A. He is a bigger man than Popovic. That's what I can say.
11 Q. Do you know, do you remember how much taller if at all he was than
12 Mr. Popovic?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. Can you tell us if General Mladic ever came to the IKM during the
15 period of July 5th through the 11th, 1995?
16 A. Yes, he was there.
17 Q. How many times?
18 A. Two or three times, but I didn't really keep records.
19 Q. I know that. But your memory is fairly decent or excellent. Can
20 you share with me on what dates you claim Mr. -- or General Mladic was at
21 the IKM?
22 A. Maybe after the 7th. His first visit may have been on the 7th
23 because it was a holiday, a St. John's day, and General Zivanovic
24 accompanied General Mladic.
25 Q. Sir, you testified earlier today that you had a brief conversation
1 with Mr. Trisic at the IKM on or about July 11th, 1995. Do you recall
3 A. Not on the 11th, that was on the 9th, as far as I know.
4 Q. My apologies. I didn't have it written down. On the 9th, you had
5 a brief conversation with Major Trisic, correct? And you called it quote
6 "purely information, an informational conversation."
7 A. Yes. It was a conversation in passing by. It was very brief.
8 There were Major Trisic, and others.
9 Q. Now, reconcile this for me, if you don't mind. I have here the
10 testimony of Mr. Trisic from the Blagojevic case, May 2004, and if we just
11 turn quickly to page 9348, and let me read what Mr. Trisic says about this
12 conversation that the two of you had. Line 15, counsel.
13 They proceed to question him and the question begins as follows.
14 "All right. While you were at Pribicevac, did you have much, did you
15 have any contact with Bozo Momcilovic. I know you saw him but did you
16 speak with him?" On line 18 the answer, did you see him or did you speak
17 to him by Mr. Trisic is, "No, I didn't." Do you know that Mr. Trisic said
18 that he didn't speak to you, sir?
19 A. It is not correct. You should ask him why he said that. Maybe he
20 did not want to get me involved when he provided his testimony. Maybe he
21 wanted to get as few people as possible. I don't know why he didn't
22 mention me.
23 Q. And maybe he told the truth, correct, sir? It's also a
24 possibility or you don't accept that?
25 A. What I'm saying is that he did not tell the truth, and I adhere to
1 what I said on the 9th.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you. That's all I have, Your Honours. Oh, wait.
3 I'm sorry.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. That's all I have. Thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is to go next? Mr. Zivanovic, go ahead.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Momcilovic. I'm Zoran Zivanovic and I
12 represent Vujadin Popovic in this case. First of all I would like to ask
13 you this: You've told us that your father was killed on the 7th of
14 January in Kravica; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Tell me, please, how old was your father when he was killed?
17 A. 58.
18 Q. Can you tell us whether at the time he was a civilian?
19 A. Yes. He was killed at his home some ten metres away from the main
20 entrance to his house.
21 Q. His house?
22 A. Yes, his house. He didn't want to leave, and 72 days later we
23 found his body.
24 Q. Just one more thing that I would like to clarify with you. You've
25 told us here that there are no visible consequences of the shelling of
1 Srebrenica dating from that period. You were talking about the period
2 that you spent at the IKM, I suppose. You said there was no shelling at
3 the time when you were there which means at the beginning of July up to
4 the 11th of July. Is that the period of time that you were referring to?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I'm asking you this because we've had an occasion to see a lot of
7 damaged buildings in Srebrenica, and we suppose that this was a result of
8 shelling. Could you please explain for us whether this damage originates
9 from the time before May or April 1993 because Srebrenica became an
11 A. A lot of damage was inflicted between March and April 1993, before
12 the enclave was proclaimed, and some of the houses had been torched during
13 an infighting of Muslims in Srebrenica. For example the school and some
14 others were torched. This was done by the Muslims. There are also bullet
15 traces, but I don't know when these were inflicted. I worked there and
16 I'm familiar with Srebrenica. I know the town very well.
17 Q. As I was reading in your statement that you provided to the
18 Defence team of Colonel Blagojevic, I could see that you mentioned
19 Vujadin Popovic as a person that you saw at the IKM. However in that
20 statement of yours, it doesn't say that you saw him on the same day or at
21 the same time with Mr. Beara and Mr. Deronjic. I'm asking you this: Are
22 you sure that Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic was at the IKM at the same time
23 when Colonel Beara and/or Mr. Deronjic were there?
24 A. The counsel didn't ask me anything to that effect, but I can say
25 that they were together. I have already said it today but if it's
1 important I can repeat. They were there together.
2 Q. Can you remember, in addition to these people whom you saw on that
3 day, which other officers were at the IKM at the time when
4 Lieutenant-Colonel arrived?
5 A. General Krstic, Mr. Jevdjevic, the liaison officer, and
6 Colonel Vukota.
7 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic or some other officers, Beara,
8 Deronjic, did they talk to these people?
9 A. It was customary for everybody who arrived to report to General
10 and then to proceed.
11 Q. Can you tell me how much time Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic spent in
12 the area?
13 A. I don't know. I don't know when they left. I didn't pay
14 attention to that.
15 Q. You didn't observe them leaving?
16 A. No, I had my things to tend to. I don't know when they left and
17 where they went to.
18 Q. If I understand you well, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic stayed there
19 on the 11th of July and his visit was in relation to the NATO bombing. If
20 I understand you well, the whole group arrived between the first and the
21 second NATO campaign?
22 A. I've told you I don't know exactly, but during that period of time
23 they did arrive, I'm not sure about the exact hour when that happened.
24 Q. If I understand you well, you said that there were a couple of
25 hours between the two campaigns?
1 A. Yes, a couple of hours.
2 Q. You could not tell us about the time of the first and the second
3 air strike?
4 A. I don't know. The first one came around 10.00 and the other one
5 about 1.00 or 2.00 p.m. But I'm not sure.
6 Q. Finally let me ask you this: You have told us that you probably
7 saw Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic on television. Could you please tell me
8 whether you remember in what situation did that happen, what was going on?
9 A. I don't know anything about the circumstances of his appearance
10 and I don't know when. It may have been even much later than 1995. I
11 really wouldn't know. I know that I saw him, but I don't know the
13 Q. So you don't remember what kind of show it was and what was being
15 A. It was a long time ago. I don't.
16 Q. You can't remember when you saw the programme?
17 A. No, I can't. I don't know exactly when that happened.
18 Q. Thank you very much for your answers, sir.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Madam Nikolic?
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Momcilovic.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. I'm Jelena Nikolic and I represent Mr. Nikolic in this case. I
25 would like to put some questions to you in relation to your testimony.
1 You resided in Kravica before 1992 and after 1996; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know Drago Nikolic's family from Kravica?
4 A. Yes, I do. We are from the same village. My first neighbour is
5 his older brother, Dragan, and his house is some 100 metres away from my
6 house. Currently this house is inhabited by his parents and his brother
7 Dragan is in Bratunac. He resides in an apartment. He works in Bratunac.
8 I know the entire family. I know his other brothers as well.
9 Q. What about Drago Nikolic? Does he have any more brothers?
10 A. Yes, he did have two. The younger one died, and the second eldest
11 is my generation. We went to the same school. We played football on the
12 same team. We see each other. I see him when he visits his father.
13 Q. Given the fact that you socialise, that you communicate, that you
14 belong to the same generation, with one of the Nikolic brothers, would you
15 be aware of the fact that in the Drago Nikolic's family there are members
16 of other religions and ethnic backgrounds?
17 A. Yes, Milan, one of his brothers, is married to a Catholic woman.
18 They reside in Novi Sad. Very nice family. She is a very nice woman.
19 His son is the same generation as my son. That's how we know each other
21 Q. In all this socialising, in all the communication that you had
22 with them, did you ever communicate with Drago Nikolic, did you ever
23 socialise with him?
24 A. He is a bit older than me. Usually younger people know older
25 people. I know that he attended a military school. I don't know much
1 about him. I was much younger. Later on I went to school in Belgrade.
2 He worked in Sarajevo. We didn't see each other that often. He would
3 visit his father in Bacici and his brother Dragan was somewhat closer to
4 me, but we did see each other, especially after 1996, because for a while
5 he was in the immediate vicinity and we would see each other. We would
6 even talk to each other.
7 Q. But you continued socialising with his brothers?
8 A. Yes. With my neighbour Dragan, we continued socialising. He
9 worked in Bratunac. I work in Srebrenica, and we see each other almost
10 every day.
11 Q. With all this socialising and communication with them, did you
12 ever hear any of them having any family problems? Did you ever hear of
13 Drago Nikolic expressing any negative feelings towards his sister-in-law
14 or other religions?
15 A. No, his father had four sons, three of whom graduated from
16 university. They are very good family. A family held in high esteem.
17 They keep together. I've never heard of any problems in the family.
18 Q. In other words, Drago Nikolic never expressed any feelings of
19 interethnic hatred?
20 A. No, he is a very nice person. I know his older brother and his
21 younger brother better, but as far as I know, I've never heard any such
22 thing about Drago Nikolic.
23 Q. I would like to ask you something about a tragedy that happened to
24 you 1992. Your father was killed on that day, and my learned friends have
25 already asked you about that. He was killed on Christmas 1993. What
1 happened to other elderly and infirm people who remained in the village?
2 You did tell us that some people remained?
3 A. The 7th of January was the most tragic day in the history of my
4 village, Kravica. Some 38 people were killed and some ten were wounded,
5 the whole village was torched, a majority of the 38 were elderly people.
6 For example, the Popovici, the Jokovici [phoen], Stanojevici [phoen] and
7 other family members were all over 60, none of them remained alive. The
8 only two people who were captured in Kravica were captured on the 8th or
9 on the 9th and taken to Srebrenica. One of them testified here. His name
10 was Ratko Nikolic, and after the time that he spent in prison he was
11 slowly dying. He is my uncle. He weighs 50 kilos, not more today. And
12 another woman who remained alive, I believe that she's also close to her
13 death bed at the moment.
14 Q. Thank you very much Mr. Momcilovic, I have no further questions
15 for you.
16 MS. NIKOLIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
17 questions for the witness.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Ms. Nikolic. Mr. Stojanovic?
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Momcilovic?
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. I'm Miodrag Stojanovic and together with my colleagues I defend
23 Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin. I would like to ask you to clarify some parts of
24 the statement that you provided to Mr. Blagojevic's Defence. You
25 mentioned that during your stay at the IKM, amongst others, you saw and
1 you heard that members of the Special Police also came there. Do you
2 remember that?
3 A. I know that this is what it says in the statement, but in my view,
4 everybody who didn't belong to the Bratunac police was somebody else, if
5 somebody different, I didn't know any of the men that did drop by the IKM
6 post and that looked like members of the police.
7 Q. What we are suggesting to you and to the Trial Chamber is that on
8 the 11th, Ljubomir Borovcanin, together with at least two more members of
9 the Republika Srpska MUP, who were not people from Bratunac, did arrive at
10 the IKM with an intention to take orders from General Krstic on the use of
11 the unit that were supposed to arrive in Bratunac around that time. My
12 question to you would be this: Do you know Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin?
13 A. I know Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin from 1992 when he arrived in our
14 town as a refugee from Kladanj. At the time I was the general manager of
15 the brick works. I met him. He spent sometime at the police station in
16 Bratunac. And if he had been there, I would have recognised him. Once
17 you meet a person like that you can't miss him. You can't not recognise
18 him. So I'm sure that during the period of time while I was there, I did
19 not see Mr. Borovcanin at that command post.
20 Q. But you agree that members of the MUP did arrive. You heard of
21 them arriving?
22 A. I don't know. There were people coming by, but if they were not
23 in the Bratunac police, whom I knew, I wouldn't pay much attention, save
24 for the Bratunac Brigade I didn't know anybody else. I didn't even know
25 any other members of the army who did not belong to the Bratunac Brigade,
1 and I really claim with certainty that Mr. Borovcanin was not there. I
2 didn't see him there.
3 Q. And there is one more thing that I would like to ask you.
4 According to the information that we have, at the general area of the
5 Pribicevac IKM, there was the command trench or the command location which
6 was a make makeshift shift tent where General Krstic would also spend the
7 time, and even further away was an observation post from which the view of
8 Srebrenica was much better?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Would that description correspond the reality of the situation?
11 A. Yes. It does.
12 Q. And one more question: When describing this place, we can also
13 say that the communications or the signals centre was also there; i.e.,
14 there was a vehicle, a signals vehicle, that was the hub for the
16 A. Yes, it was in the vicinity of the command post, maybe a couple
17 metres away or maybe ten metres away from the command post itself.
18 Q. Could you please tell us how far that place was from the
19 observation point that you described for us?
20 A. That communications centre was some 4 or five metres from the
21 command post, and now you can calculate the distance yourself if you know
22 how far the observation post was from the command post.
23 Q. And just let me complete this series of questions. Can we agree
24 that the second NATO air strike was around 1400 or 1500 hours on that day,
25 on the 11th of July?
1 A. Yes, this is exactly what I said and it happened in the sector
2 closer to Srebrenica.
3 Q. Did you hear that Ljubomir Borovcanin was in the area in 1995?
4 A. No, I didn't.
5 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions for you.
6 A. Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. On the assumption that
8 the Miletic and Pandurevic teams still do not require to cross-examine the
9 witness, I'm asking you whether you ever any redirect.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have a very brief redirect.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, please.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
14 Q. Mr. Momcilovic, you've mentioned a gentleman by the name of
15 Jevdjevic in connection with his being a liaison officer. First, do you
16 recall this gentleman's first name?
17 A. I know his last name, Jevdzevic. For me that was quite enough.
18 Q. Second is, do you know what he did in relation to his
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, one moment.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I just think it's outside the scope of
22 the cross. He covered the area on direct with this witness, and now he's
23 just following up questions that apparently he didn't ask him during his
24 direct. But we are just formally saying that it's outside the scope and
25 we should follow that procedure.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic. How does it link to the
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think he -- several questions were put to him
4 with respect to Mr. Jevdjevic, including the spelling of his name, who he
5 was, what he did, on cross-examination. And I think this directly relates
6 to that line of questioning. It was a very specific question which even
7 involved the spelling of his name into the record. I can't recall which
8 counsel put it to him, but I think it was Mr. Krgovic, and I'm simply
9 trying to establish the identity of the person for the record.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there any doubt, any controversy, amongst you, as
11 to who this Jevdjevic was? Can't this be stipulated rather than waste
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm perfectly willing to stipulate to it, and
14 think we can do that, so I'll just move on to a different area, if I can
15 accept that.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer].
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. Krgovic, would you care to stipulate to
18 Mr. Jevdjevic's identity for the record?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: If you're -- yes, Mr. Krgovic?
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, he was not a liaison
21 officer. He had a different assignment, if we talk about
22 Milenko Jevdjevic. Perhaps I could discuss outside the courtroom with
23 Mr. Vanderpuye. He was the commander of the communications battalion of
24 the Drina Corps and that was his assignment, and his name is
25 Milenko Jevdjevic, if we are referring to the same person.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: That justifies the Trial Chamber in deciding to give
2 you the go ahead and proceed with your questions if the idea or the
3 intention is to establish his identity. So --
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Go ahead.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE:
7 Q. I think for the purposes of the record, Mr. Momcilovic, you've
8 heard what Mr. Krgovic has said, is that an accurate -- is that accurate
9 as to whom this Mr. Jevdjevic is that you've been referring to?
10 A. Yes. He was an officer from the corps. I didn't know exactly
11 what his assignment was. But he did work in communications, and he had
12 young or fresh soldiers under his command.
13 Q. Okay. Could I have P00033, please, in e-court, shown to the
14 witness? This is a communication, if we could just go down to the bottom,
15 from General Tolimir, and it is addressed to, if we could just go to the
16 top, it's addressed to Generals Gvero and Krstic at the IKM. I want to
17 refer you specifically to paragraph number 2. If you could just read
19 A. What should I do with this?
20 Q. I would just ask you to read to yourself paragraph number 2, and
21 if we could just page up to the top of the document, you can see that it's
22 dated 09.07.1995 at the top left. That's the 9th of July 1995.
23 A. This is in accordance with the statement that General Gvero on the
24 9th of July was there, and as he was with General Krstic. This
25 communication was probably received through the communications centre.
1 Q. And in paragraph 2 of this communication, there is an indication
2 in that paragraph that the president has been satisfied with the combat
3 operations thus far and is effectively given the go ahead for further
4 combat operations, isn't that true?
5 A. No need for me to comment. It clearly says so.
6 Q. And I just want to be sure. Are you suggesting then that on the
7 9th of July that there was no combat operations that were proceeding in
8 the area of Srebrenica?
9 A. The phase of separating the enclaves had been completed by the
11 Q. All right. I have nothing further. Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Krgovic?
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please allow me to ask
14 a question about this document. I didn't want to interrupt. It refers to
15 the stamp and the time at which it was received at the IKM. I would like
16 to ask the witness a question about that.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, Mr. Krgovic.
18 Further cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we scroll up so that we see
20 the stamp of receipt, the receipt stamp.
21 Q. Mr. Momcilovic, you can see the date the 9th of July and the time
22 when this document was -- it's at 2350?
23 A. Much later than the general's visit at Pribicevac.
24 Q. At the time this was received, General Gvero was no longer at
1 A. No. We were -- we had already packed and moved.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: That's all, Your Honour. Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
4 Mr. Momcilovic, that brings your testimony to an end. We haven't
5 got any further questions for you. Our staff will give you all the
6 assistance you require to facilitate your return back home at the
7 earliest. On behalf of my colleagues, Judge Kwon, Judge Prost, and
8 Judge Stole, and on behalf of the Tribunal in general, I wish to thank you
9 for having come over to give evidence and we all wish you a safe journey
10 back home.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents or exhibits? Mr. Vanderpuye?
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. We have just the two,
15 one being the map which is P02870, and the second being the document I've
16 just used -- I'm sorry, the second is the map marked PIC 00140. And
17 the -- that's correct, the last document is already in evidence.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Any of the Defence teams
19 wishes to tender any documents? I don't think so.
20 That closes that chapter.
21 Let me come back to you now before we have the break and the next
22 witness to what we were discussing very briefly yesterday in anticipation
23 of the response from the Popovic Defence team relating to the motion for
24 videolink. Let's go into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 14134-14141 redacted. Private session
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Next witness? There are no protective measures?
17 MR. THAYER: None, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Joseph.
19 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You're about to start
21 giving evidence. Madam Usher is going to hand you the text of a solemn
22 declaration confirming that in the course of your testimony you will be
23 speaking the truth and the whole truth. Please go ahead, read it out
24 aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I solemnly declare that I will speak the
1 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Joseph. Please make yourself
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer for the Office of the Prosecutor will go
6 first. He will then be followed by the various Defence teams on
7 cross-examination. Mr. Thayer.
8 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President
9 WITNESS: EDWARD JOSEPH
10 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
11 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. We speak the same language. Nevertheless it needs to be
14 translated, so I just ask you to keep a pause between my question and your
15 answer, if you could, please. Sir, would you please state your full name
16 for the record?
17 A. Edward Paul Joseph.
18 Q. And how old are you, sir?
19 A. I am 49 years old.
20 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you're employed, what do you do
21 for a living?
22 A. I'm with Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies,
23 I'm an adjunct professor and visiting scholar.
24 Q. And what is the subject matter of your teaching?
25 A. I am in the field of conflict management.
1 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber a little bit about your
2 educational background, particularly as it relates to the former
3 Yugoslavia, sir?
4 A. I have a law degree from University of Virginia. I also have a
5 bachelor and master's degree from Johns Hopkins university in
6 international studies and from the same school where I teach the school of
7 advanced international studies. Also I did military service.
8 Q. And while we're on that topic can you just describe what your
9 military service was?
10 A. I was an army aviator helicopter pilot, US army reserve. I also
11 was on active duty in Bosnia for approximately almost one year in 199--
12 late 1995 and early 1996 until actually late fall 1996.
13 Q. And what is your level of proficiency with the B/C/S language as
14 we refer to it here?
15 A. I am reasonably proficient in that language now; although, I'm not
16 formally trained and I'm not grammatically perfect in the language. But
17 I'm reasonably proficient in that language.
18 Q. Would you take a few moments and review for the Trial Chamber your
19 employment history, again particularly as it relates to the former
21 A. I will be happy to do that. I was serving as a lawyer with the US
22 arms control and disarmament agency. That's now formally part of the
23 state department. Then it was quasi-independent. I was working in Geneva
24 on arms control negotiations with the then Soviet Union and following that
25 with Russian Federation. I was co-legal adviser for the start treaty when
1 it was signed in 1991. In 1992, the summer, as an army reservist, I had
2 to perform service, so I was ordered to assist UNHCR that was conducting
3 an air lift to Sarajevo beginning in July 1992. It was during that time
4 there were many difficulties on the ground, at the airport in Sarajevo,
5 and so I volunteered to go down after completion of my military reserve
6 service, and I was sent down by UNHCR to Sarajevo beginning in August and
7 September 1992. I then was hired by UNPROFOR as a civilian, as a civil
8 affairs officer, and worked with UNPROFOR as a civil affairs officer from
9 October 1992 until late August 1995. And I was deployed in many, many
10 locations in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in Croatia.
11 Q. Let me just stop you right there for a moment, if I could. Can
12 you describe just generally what the duties and responsibilities of a
13 civil affairs officer were and typically are?
14 A. Yes. I can. We performed a number of different functions, in a
15 constantly evolving environment. We performed several different roles as
16 political officers, as humanitarian officers, as diplomatic, and even
17 legal to some degree and even at times related to media. So we were a
18 all-points person for the UNPROFOR military chain to be in contact with
19 and having direct line, say, from the UN political side, the UN, the
20 formal UN headquarters in New York and the headquarters that were there in
21 former Yugoslavia. So we had several different, a number of different
22 roles, that were combined in many respects and depending on the situation
23 were called upon to do many different things.
24 Q. And just to be clear, you were serving in a civilian capacity as a
25 civilian -- civil affairs officer; is that correct?
1 A. That is correct. For the most of my time in Bosnia during the
2 war, I was there as a civilian. I did one short active duty assignment
3 but for the most part I was there as a civilian, correct.
4 Q. And if you would, again, just briefly touch on some of your
5 assignments leading up to July of 1995, basically where were you based,
6 and just briefly describe the nature of the work you were doing during
7 those assignments?
8 A. I will. I arrived in Sarajevo in 1992 with UNHCR. I was the air
9 lift liaison. I was there during that rather chaotic period, the most
10 prominent event of which was the downing of an Italian plane carrying aid
11 into Sarajevo not far from the Sarajevo airport. And then I was with
12 UNPROFOR, I was first deployed to Knin. So obviously working closely with
13 the Serb leadership there in Knin for the rest of 1992 and early 1993,
14 there were some major military events in January 1993 following a Croatian
15 movement there at Maslenica bridge. And then was sent to Kiseljak which
16 was the headquarters, the new headquarters of the UNPROFOR operation
17 command in Bosnia, and moving from Sarajevo to Kiseljak and I worked there
18 until late summer 1993 and then went to Mostar where, because of the
19 crisis there, fighting between Croats and Bosniaks there in Mostar.
20 So I worked in that situation, and then was sent from there to
21 Bihac and worked in that situation for over a year, which involved a
22 complex conflict involving Serbs and Muslims and as well a conflict in --
23 internal conflict between Muslims in Bihac. Then I was in Zagreb for a
24 short while in early 1995, and then was sent in July 1995 to Tuzla,
25 following the events in Srebrenica, I was sent there, and then to Zepa and
1 Sarajevo again.
2 Q. Okay. Let me just interrupt you for a moment and take a quick
3 detour and then we'll resume the balance of your employment history.
4 During your work as a civil affairs officer, up to, say, June or July of
5 1995, did you have any contacts with senior VRS officers?
6 A. In 1993, as -- when I was based in Kiseljak at UNPROFOR
7 headquarters, yes, I had a contact with the senior Serb military
8 leadership. At these meetings we would have negotiations at Sarajevo
9 airport involving all three sides and UNPROFOR, yes.
10 Q. And do you recall the names of these high level senior VRS
12 A. There were a number. Of course, our most prominent was
13 General Mladic. I recall General Tolimir and General Gvero as well.
14 Q. Can you estimate how many times approximately you met with these
15 senior VRS officers?
16 A. A number of times. There were a number of meetings at Sarajevo
17 airport in 1993 and anywhere between a half a dozen and a dozen.
18 Q. That would be for each of those individuals?
19 A. Right. At each -- generally, they were all present, not
20 necessarily all three present at every meeting, but I had contact with
21 them at various meetings during that period.
22 Q. We all know where General Mladic stood. But based on your
23 contacts with generals Gvero and Tolimir, what was your understanding as
24 to their place in this senior VRS hierarchy?
25 A. My understanding was that General Mladic was at the top and that
1 in order General Tolimir and then General Gvero. That was my
2 understanding as I recall.
3 Q. And did you ever meet General Milovanovic?
4 A. I don't recall meeting General Milovanovic, no, but I knew of him
5 and had heard of him and had knew other UNPROFOR military who had met with
7 Q. And were you aware at the time of what General Milovanovic's
8 position was?
9 A. I was told he was Chief of Staff.
10 Q. And at the time did you know where that position fit in the
12 A. I wasn't exactly clear as to whether that meant definitively that
13 he was of more a senior rank than the others. It wasn't precisely clear
14 to me.
15 Q. Okay. I interrupted you, sir, in your employment history. You
16 indicated that you were in Zepa in 1995, and I believe you've already told
17 us you were in a different capacity in 1996. If you would pick it up
18 there, please?
19 A. As I said I was sent to Tuzla to work with our team there, civil
20 affairs officer in Tuzla, who had responsibility for Srebrenica, and
21 the -- what we were then anticipating was this wave of refugees from
22 Srebrenica, and then was sent to Zepa following that, and then - I can
23 give detail if that's required - and then in late August 1995 I returned
24 to the United States, I worked during the fall of 1995 at the council on
25 foreign relations in New York, and then was called to active duty with the
1 army after the Dayton agreement was signed. And from late 1995 until late
2 fall 1996 I was on active duty with the US army as part of the IFOR
3 contingent. I was again with the civil affairs part, although, this time
4 with the military and was assigned to OSCE at that time.
5 Q. And what did you do with OSCE?
6 A. With OSCE I was adviser to the head of mission and I worked on
7 democratisations, so I was the director of the initial democratisation
8 group in Sarajevo and I did that until late 1996. When I came off active
9 duty, I was rehired by OSCE and was sent initially to Mostar, and I was
10 the regional director in Mostar; that is, the senior OSCE official in
11 Mostar for most of 1997. And then following some threats against me, I
12 was removed by the head of mission and moved to Brcko where I also served
13 for a year, all of 1998. I was the OSCE director in Brcko.
14 Q. And after that work?
15 A. After that I assisted the Brcko arbitrator in the decision on
16 Brcko and then in March, that decision was handed down in March 1999,
17 shortly thereafter the air campaign started, the NATO air campaign in
18 Kosovo, and I was hired by Catholic Relief Services to be the senior camp
19 manager of a refugee camp on the border between Kosovo and Macedonia, that
20 was a refugee camp for Kosovar-Albanian, primarily Albanian refugees from
21 Kosovo during the air campaign, and then after that episode finished and
22 Albanians returned to Kosovo, I went to Kosovo with CRS and worked in CRS
23 until the end of 1999.
24 Q. And then what did you do after that?
25 A. I returned to the United States, I worked on the presidential
1 campaign of Al Gore, and following that unfortunate demise, I -- after the
2 Florida debacle, I returned to the Balkans and I was hired by the United
3 Nations and sent to Mitrovica municipality in Kosovo, which is as you
4 probably know -- as the Court probably knows is another divided city, like
5 Mostar, like Brcko, and I was the deputy municipal administrator in Brcko
6 during that time obviously working with both Serbs and Albanians in
8 Q. And approximately what year was that, sir?
9 A. That was late 2000 and for the first part of 2001.
10 Q. And generally since then what kind of work have you been engaged
11 in other than your teaching and studies?
12 A. There was one other Balkans assignment. The conflict then started
13 in Macedonia between Albanians and Macedonians that summer, and I was
14 hired by the International Crisis Group and I was their projects director
15 in Macedonia from August 2001 to August 2003 upon which time I returned to
16 the United States and worked in think tanks and published articles on the
17 Balkans, and I worked in Iraq as a civilian in fall 2004 and in Haiti in
18 2005 and 2006.
19 Q. Okay. Well, welcome to The Hague.
20 A. Thank you very much.
21 Q. I want to turn your attention to July of 1995, sir. You already
22 spoke a little bit about this, but can you please tell the Trial Chamber
23 how you first became involved in the events immediately following the fall
24 of the Srebrenica enclave?
25 A. Yes. I was sent -- I was asked by head of civil affairs at
1 UNPROFOR in Zagreb to go immediately to Tuzla because there was the
2 anticipation of thousands of refugees from Srebrenica, which had just
3 fallen so that's what I did, and I was sent there to work with our civil
4 affairs team there that was already in place at the Tuzla air base.
5 Q. Do you remember the approximate date you I arrived in Tuzla, sir?
6 A. On or about 12 or 13 July 1995, on or about.
7 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what your experience was at that
8 air base with the refugees as they were arriving?
9 A. Well, in one word, I will put it this way, we were overwhelmed.
10 We were absolutely overwhelmed. I was there when the first buses arrived
11 of these refugees, the vast, vast majority of whom were women if not all
12 women, and we were quite overwhelmed in our ability to care and find
13 adequate housing for them, obviously tent and so forth, at the air base,
14 and to accommodate them and deal with their both emotional situation and
15 their basic needs. There was some 20.000 plus in a little over 24 hours,
16 and as I said, overwhelmed is the word that would describe it.
17 Q. Did you have the opportunity to speak with any of these refugees
18 during this time, sir?
19 A. I did. I did speak to them.
20 Q. And from what you observed of them and from speaking with them,
21 with these women, what kind of emotional and physical condition were they
22 in when they arrived?
23 A. I would say the best word to describe it is distraught. They were
24 quite distraught. And their overwhelming source of distress was their
25 concern about the fate of their men, be they husbands, fathers, sons or
1 brothers, whom they had left behind, and that was very, very clear to me.
2 In addition, there was obvious the chaos of accommodating so many
3 people there and the inadequate means that we had at first to do it, but
4 the -- that was the main source of the distress and that was quite
6 Q. Are there any examples of this concern or distress that stand out
7 in your mind, sir?
8 A. Yes. I remember I have an image, a clear image, of one woman and
9 I should say they were all reasonably thin, quite thin, was another sort
10 of distinct memory that I have of them which was the case in many parts of
11 Bosnia that -- where people were relatively deprived and isolated. And I
12 have an image in my mind of a woman who had wandered away from the main
13 part where we had grouped these refugees, and there was a barbed wire
14 perimeter, because obviously these are military installations, and this
15 woman was attempting to scale, with her bare hands, was attempting to
16 scale the barbed wire fence and I asked her what she was doing and she was
17 absolutely determined to scale because a rumour had circulated that the --
18 some men, some of the Srebrenica men, were nearby there, and she was
19 determined that she was going to go explore and see if -- whether it was
20 her son or husband was there.
21 Q. Do you recall when you were there whether any of these buses that
22 were arriving were escorted by UNPROFOR?
23 A. No. I don't recall that there was an UNPROFOR escort with the
24 bus. It's something that I recall. The first buses arrived at night, I
25 recall, and there were other aspects of it that we were preoccupied with
1 including questions of women who had gone missing from that so that was
2 also what we were focused on.
3 Q. And what were those questions, sir?
4 A. People claimed that some women had boarded and not gotten off at
5 the other end, had been boarded in Srebrenica and not gotten off at the
6 other end. That was a concern. There was also information that I had
7 gotten that a woman was raped, and apparently this was again just
8 information I heard, I didn't witness this, and I cannot confirm that it
9 is true, that a woman had been raped and then hung herself at the Tuzla
10 air base. I can't -- I did not witness that, however. But these were our
11 preoccupations was working with UNHCR and others to try to establish the
12 whereabouts and location and the well being of the these refugees amid
13 what was a quite chaotic situation.
14 Q. Approximately how long did you stay in Tuzla, sir?
15 A. I believe it was about a week or so. Approximately.
16 Q. And then what did you do?
17 A. I was then called to Sarajevo to the headquarters there in
19 Q. And what happened when you arrived in Sarajevo?
20 A. There was various debriefings and meetings that I was in, until
21 events then shifted the focus to Zepa.
22 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber about that, sir, how did your
23 focus become drawn to Zepa?
24 A. Well, we became aware obviously we had UNPROFOR military assets on
25 the ground in Zepa, and we became aware that the town was under attack and
1 that there was a great deal of fighting and that there was a question of
2 whether or not the town would fall or not, and then there was a flurry of
3 meetings with senior officials in Bosnia and that became the next primary
4 focus as to what would be the destiny of Zepa.
5 Q. And were you given a specific assignment, sir?
6 A. Once the -- once -- at some point in time, there was a
7 communication from General Mladic to General Smith, who was the BiH
8 commander, and -- saying that he wanted UNPROFOR -- I believe specifying
9 that he wanted UNPROFOR civil affairs, I don't know if it was that
10 specific, but in an inviting some or in permitting some presence as we had
11 no ability to go to -- into Republika Srpska without permission, and even
12 sometimes with permission, we would have exceedingly great difficulty
13 manoeuvring through Republika Srpska during the war, but there was this
14 communication from General Mladic to General Smith saying to send some
15 presence there and I and a colleague, Viktor Bezruchenko, were sent there
16 to Zepa.
17 Q. Do you recall what the date was of your departure?
18 A. It was on or about 20 July, somewhere around there, on or about.
19 Q. And can you just describe the trip that you had to take and tell
20 the Trial Chamber, if you would, approximately when you arrived?
21 A. Yes. We -- Viktor and I grabbed a map, we grabbed an up-armoured
22 Land Rover and started on our way only to have a flat tire. I recall we
23 had to return, get the tire fixed, and then continue on our way. And it
24 took several hours because you had to go through a number of Serb
25 check-points, a number, and we were -- we didn't believe we would ever
1 make it because we had had "permission before," and had not made
2 destination, as I said, it was extremely difficult to manoeuvre in
3 Republika Srpska in those days, and so we were quite amazed to find
4 ourselves later at the entrance point in the hill above Zepa later in that
6 Q. Can you describe first of all, the -- do you recall whether this
7 location had a particular name and can you describe it for the Trial
8 Chamber, please?
9 A. Right. The point that we arrived at was not in the centre of Zepa
10 town. It was a point above it, Zepa lies in a gorge below. There is a
11 river that flows through it and this very narrow steep heavily forested
12 gorge, and at the top is a point that as I understood it was UNPROFOR
13 military had given the name OP 2, observation point, observation post 2.
14 And that is the point where we arrived. It was under control of Serb
15 military forces. There were a lot of Serb army, what we called then BSA,
16 Bosnian Serb army, I suppose today you say VRS but in those days we say
17 BSA, the English initials, a lot of military. And we were told to wait,
18 told quite firmly, "You will wait." And that's what we did until we had
19 further instructions from them.
20 Q. And can you just describe for a moment how the -- this OP 2 was
21 physically set up? What did it consist in?
22 A. Again going from my memory now, it wasn't much. It was basically
23 in a clearing, and there -- there were not really significant structures
24 there. There might have been a perimeter fence and some meagre housing
25 facility for the UNPROFOR troops who were there, may or may not have been
1 there, or a tent even. I might even have just simply been a tent. But
2 there were a number of vehicles and there was this perimeter and where all
3 the vehicles were, there -- these -- were Serb military vehicles and there
4 might even have been a tank, if I can recall. I can't be sure but there
5 might well have been a tank. There were some loudspeakers set up around
6 there. And that's what I can tell you. It was just basically a clearing
7 out in a very rural area of Bosnia.
8 Q. I see we are about two minutes from the break. With your
9 permission, Mr. President, I'm about to go into another area. I would ask
10 that we take the break now?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Thank you, Mr. Joseph.
12 We'll see you again tomorrow morning. Mr. Bourgon?
13 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. With your
14 permission I would like to return to the question that you asked me
15 earlier about the force of the subpoena to be issued for someone in the
16 United States. Thank you, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Joseph, I think, can leave the courtroom.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon, sorry.
20 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I would
21 like to make my replies more precise. About the force of the subpoena.
22 The international court in accordance with the chapter 7 of the Charter of
23 the United Nations has some obligations for member countries; namely, the
24 unconditional cooperation with the international court and to execute
25 instructions for -- to provide assistance. This principle of compulsory
1 cooperation between UN member states and the International Tribunal can be
2 seen in Article 29 of the Statute. Paragraph 2 of that article says that
3 the states must respond to all instructions given by the Trial Chamber.
4 This provision includes some -- nothing new, but if we read that in the
5 light of Articles 56 and 58 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,
6 Rule 58 says that the obligations contained in Article 59 of the Statute
7 are above all legal obstacles that national systems or extradition
8 agreements signed by the state in question could be against the transfer
9 or extradition of the witness of the International Tribunal. Likewise,
10 Article 56 of the -- says that the state that has been instructed to
11 transfer the witness will, without delay, do everything that is necessary
12 to effectively execute that instruction. Your Honours, that is public
13 international law, that is applied in this Court.
14 The only thing I would like to say with regard to this is that in
15 the light of these provisions, we with all due respect, claim that it
16 would be wrong to try to establish what could be done in the United States
17 if the Trial Chamber issues a subpoena. That the Trial Chamber should
18 limit itself only to such legal provisions pertaining to it, and then
19 possibly decide on measures to be taken if somebody in the United States
20 should oppose the measures taken by the Trial Chamber. I wanted to make
21 this more precise so that you do not get the impression that I provided a
22 too simplified answer to your question. Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Bourgon. We are grateful for that
24 elaboration. We are still discussing as you may have gathered otherwise
25 we would have handed down the decision. We are still discussing, and we
1 are hopeful that we should be in a position to hand down a decision
2 tomorrow morning.
3 So we stand adjourned. I thank the staff, the interpreters and
4 operators, for having stayed with us a few more minutes. My apologies to
5 the other Trial Chamber. Please do explain although I don't know if this
6 will make a real difference. Thank you. We stand adjourned until
7 tomorrow morning.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of
10 August, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.