1 Monday, 27 August 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar, and good morning,
6 everybody. Could you kindly call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.
10 All the accused are here. For the record, I notice the absence of
11 Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Lazarevic, and Mr. Ostojic.
12 For the Prosecution, it's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer who are
14 Any preliminaries? None.
15 We still have to go through the tendering of documents process
16 relating to the last witness. Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Thayer and good morning
17 to you.
18 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you and to
19 Your Honours. Good morning, everyone. The list that's been distributed
20 has six documents listed, three of which were used to refresh the
21 witness's recollection during his direct testimony and three which were
22 used during his redirect testimony. There is one typographical error. On
23 the last document identified as P02876, that had, in fact, already been
24 assigned a 65 ter number. This was admitted to the Prosecution's 65 ter
25 list of exhibits by the Trial Chamber's December 6, 2006 decision. So the
1 new 65 ter number - actually, it's the old one - but the correct one is
2 P2671. That's the first Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade combat report.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Thayer, do you know the number of the report of
5 the first one, negotiations on Zepa?
6 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour. Actually, that has no number. It
7 is the first in that series.
8 JUDGE KWON: That is the first one.
9 MR. THAYER: But as the report was written, it was not numbered.
10 So the first numbered report actually begins with number 2.
11 JUDGE KWON: The second and third one were used by Miletic
12 Defence, and they are minded to tender it separately.
13 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Your Honour. I noticed that as well.
14 I believe those are being offered by the Miletic team as well.
15 JUDGE KWON: Before we entered the courtroom, this morning the
16 Judges were discussing whether it would be a good idea to have the UN
17 documents, in particularly, these documents related to the negotiations
18 Zepa, in its entirety in a binder form. What would you say to that?
19 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, we would welcome that suggestion. We
20 think that would be helpful to the Court. There are 14 of these
21 negotiations on Zepa documents. Clearly, they weren't of significant
22 relevance to this particular witness for me to have even proofed him with
23 each and every one, much less used them during the examination. I don't
24 think it can but help in some respects for the Court to have the full
25 picture, especially as a number of these exhibits were referred to by my
2 I'm not sure if all of the ones which were referred to are being
3 tendered, but I would also renew my offer - and I've had some discussions
4 in the past with some of my friends - to similarly offer the Ukrainian
5 battalion sit-reps which were, as we have seen, pretty much real time
6 reports that were being sent up the chain in terms of the events that they
7 were experiencing during the VRS assault on Zepa. We've heard references
8 to those. I've referred to those in my examination of other witnesses.
9 We certainly saw liberal use of them with respect to Mr. Joseph's
11 In my redirect, I could have thrown out just as many Ukrainian
12 battalion sit-reps which showed VRS threats on a particular day, specific
13 threats to kill the peacekeepers as well. We -- our position is that they
14 are what they are. The -- I think they would be helpful for the Trial
15 Chamber to read as well, particularly since I imagine that a selection of
16 those will be tendered so the Court has the full picture. We would offer
17 those as well.
18 We can do that separately. But just to sort of expand on your
19 suggestion, Your Honour, I think that would be a good idea. We can very
20 quickly gather those together, and, in fact, I have a packet already
21 together. It's just a matter of copying them and giving them numbers.
22 JUDGE KWON: No doubt they can be used when General Smith comes
23 later on.
24 MR. THAYER: They can be used. I'm not sure whether -- I haven't
25 reached that point in terms of --
1 JUDGE KWON: Well, leaving that. But I'm wondering whether the
2 Defence would have any say to that, that idea.
3 MR. THAYER: I would imagine that they will be made liberal use of
4 by my friends, as will other UN documents. So we have no objection to
5 having them all come in now as a packet.
6 JUDGE KWON: I'm looking at Mr. Josse.
7 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, if I might say with respect, I think
8 that's a good idea. Could I make one or two observations? I'm a little
9 surprised, notwithstanding Your Honour's comment, at the list that
10 Mr. Thayer has produced because I'm looking at the transcript for
11 Thursday, the 23rd of August. And at page 14165, when he showed the first
12 document to the witness, he actually said, "It's not something we intend
13 to offer." So I was a little surprised by the change of heart.
14 Having said that, as I've already said, with respect, Your
15 Honour's idea is a good one. We couldn't possibly object, certainly those
16 of us who represent General Gvero, to the Court seeing all these
17 documents. I agree with Mr. Thayer that liberal use of certain documents
18 has been made, and the Court might find it useful to see the whole
19 sequence of these documents. That's the stance that I take because to
20 take any other stance would perhaps be seen as unreasonable. Others, of
21 course, may take a different view.
22 I would invite the Ukrainian battalion sit-reps to be either
23 included or to be a separate bundle adduced in a similar fashion.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Anybody else? Mr. Zivanovic?
25 Mr. Thayer?
1 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President, just to respond briefly, the --
2 for example, that first document which I showed Mr. Joseph was not
3 something -- none of those three documents were documents I had intended
4 to offer into evidence to his testimony. His memory faltered. I had to
5 refresh his recollection. I think they should come in. They were
6 referred to. I think they were also referred to, at least some of them,
7 by my friends.
8 In particular, that first document, although I used it to refresh
9 Mr. Joseph's recollection, became very relevant in the specific
10 questioning that he was subject to with respect to the sequence of events
11 on the 20th of July when he was leaving Zepa; that is, the fighting that
12 some of the sit-reps memorialised that occurred in the evening, the early
13 evening hours, starting at 31900 hours to 1930. There was specific
14 questioning with respect to: "Was that the fighting you heard as you were
15 leaving," as distinct from the bombardment that he clearly testified about
16 and which this particular memo talks about him reporting to Mr. Harland.
17 So for both areas of examination, in terms of refreshing his
18 recollection and in terms of corroborating frankly his -- what I thought
19 was very clear testimony as to the sequence of events: Bombardment
20 followed by small arms fire and mortar fire, which were memorialised in
21 some of the documents the UN Ukrainian sit-reps shown to him by my
22 friends. So for both of those purposes that document became relevant.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Zivanovic?
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I sent my list, and I would like to tender two
2 documents used in cross-examination of the witness.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought you were going to respond to Judge Kwon's
4 -- one moment. Because we haven't cleared the Prosecution list as yet.
5 So any objections to any of the documents that the Prosecution
6 wishes to tender? I think the point raised by you, Mr. Josse, has been
7 dealt with. Any objections? There are none.
9 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President, just for the record, I have no
10 objections to any of the other Defence teams' submissions, just to save
11 some time.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So your documents are admitted
13 into evidence, and they will be marked as exhibits accordingly.
14 Now, Mr. Zivanovic.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As I already said, I'd like to tender two
16 documents. That's 1D373 and 1D374 --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- that I used in cross-examination.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. There are no objections from the
20 Prosecution. Is there any objection from any of the Defence teams? None.
21 They are so admitted. Who else would like to tender documents? Mr. Meek?
22 MR. MEEK: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. We have two
23 documents, and I'm not sure if they are a 65 ter number. The first is a
24 28 July 1995 report, ERN number R 0123906. The second one is a sit-com
25 report, the 19th of August -- or July 1995, R 0123425. Both were used in
1 the cross-examination of the witness by Mr. Ostojic.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. No objections from the Prosecution. Any
3 objection from any of the Defence teams? None. Mr. Josse?
4 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, we've submitted a list. 6D133 through to
5 6D136 would now be included in the idea that's been advanced by Judge Kwon
6 and Mr. Thayer, so to speak. 6D131 is a different matter, and I'd ask it
7 for that to be admitted.
8 But before I sit down, could I confirm that the Prosecution are
9 going to do the work in relation to the preparation of these bundles? We
10 would be very grateful for that. I know that in as far as the sit-reps
11 are concerned Mr. Thayer has already done that work because he and I have
12 spoken about it some weeks ago.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Josse. Mr. Thayer?
14 MR. THAYER: I'll hit the copier this afternoon, Mr. President.
15 We'll have things distributed.
16 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it there are no objections to the tendering
18 of these documents. There are none. They are so admitted.
19 Madam Fauveau? You also had four documents.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have documents:
21 5D413, 5D416, 5D417. And at the same time, this is number 5D8272 and
22 5D491 [as interpreted], which is 5D873. All these are documents
23 originating from the United Nations. And just to correct the last number,
24 this is 5D419.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Our preference, Mr. Josse, Ms. Fauveau and others,
2 Mr. Thayer, is that whatever you are tendering now, irrespective of the
3 fact that they could form part of the two binders that we will be
4 receiving, we've decided that these will be tendered separately as they
5 have, and then the binders will become a court documents, an IC documents,
6 rather than a Prosecution or a Defence. Okay? That's just for your
8 Does anybody else wish to tender any other documents? I don't
9 think so. We've covered the four of you. Yes, Mr. Thayer?
10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just two quick items. I noticed on
11 the Beara's team's submission that R 0123425 is a three-page document
12 which runs to 3427. This falls somewhat in line Mr. President with what
13 you just said, but that is actually a part of Zepa negotiations 2. It's
14 just been ERNed under a different numerical sequence. It is the draft
15 demilitarisation agreement that was drafted by Mr. Joseph. You'll,
16 actually, see that document under a different ERN under Zepa negotiations
17 2 when we finally produce it, but I just wanted to clarify that for the
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I also would like -- I don't want to doubt
20 your statement, Mr. Meek, but just to make sure, since they are in the
21 transcript, I just want someone to check on the ERN number given by
22 Mr. Meek to make sure that we've got the right documents. The reason is
23 that when Mr. Ostojic was making use of them, we had some problems at the
24 time, which I've not that sure have been sorted out. Okay. So if there
25 is consultation between you, Mr. Meek, Mr. Thayer, and the registrar,
1 between the three of you, you could confirm that these are the two
2 documents that you had in mind. That's all.
3 MR. THAYER: And the second item, Mr. President - I know it's
4 Monday morning so I'll take a shot at it - while we are on the topic of
5 some of these UN-related documents, Mr. Joseph made specific reference in
6 one of his answers to the UN report. And we've heard reference to this
7 large UN report that was done a few years ago. I think -- I know I have
8 used portions of it in some redirect examination. I imagine it's been
9 used in part in some cross-examination.
10 I would also offer that report as a helpful resource to the Court.
11 It's something, I'm sure, my friends will have something to say about, but
12 it is an important document. It's been referred to in a number of places,
13 including the Prosecution's pre-trial brief. It will be referred to by, I
14 presume, Richard Butler in his testimony. It's been furnished -- I can't
15 say off the top of my head whether it's been furnished to General Smith.
16 But, again, it is one of the central documents in the aftermath of
17 the Srebrenica events. And it's 65 ter 528, I'm being told by
18 Ms. Stewart.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?
20 MR. JOSSE: That may be a step too far. For our part, we would
21 like to think about that particular proposal. I'm not sufficiently
22 familiar with that document, to be frank, to make submissions about it
23 now. And I'd ask at least a week for responding to that particular idea,
24 if I may.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll give you two weeks, Mr. Josse, during which
1 you will also perhaps think whether being a United Nations report
2 submitted to the Security Council and to the general assembly is something
3 that we can take judicial cognizance of.
4 MR. JOSSE: I understand that, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: You have two weeks instead of one.
6 MR. JOSSE: A brief oral submission in two weeks?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: No filings, please.
10 MR. JOSSE: Music to my ears.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So have we finished?
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Just in case you don't find it in the transcript,
14 all these documents are being admitted. There are no translation
15 problems. So that's it.
16 Before we admit the next witness, are there any statements that
17 you wish to make? None. So let's bring him in.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Sladojevic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to welcome
22 you. You're about to start giving evidence. Before you do so, our rules
23 require you to make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the
24 truth. The text has just been handed to you. Please read it out loud,
25 and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: BOGDAN SLADOJEVIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
6 Take a seat.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you still in the army?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: But do you still use the title of Colonel? It's me
11 that you have to address for the time being.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand your question. I
13 am retired, and I'm a Lieutenant-Colonel [as interpreted], a retired
14 Lieutenant Colonel.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. McCloskey will be -- yes, Ms. Fauveau?
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe that there has been an
17 interpretation error. The gentleman is a Colonel-General.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Colonel-General. All right. Okay. Thank you,
19 Madam Fauveau.
20 You're going to be asked a few questions by Mr. McCloskey, whom
21 you've met already, and then he will be followed by various Defence teams
22 on cross-examination. You'll get to know who is who in due course.
23 Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President and good morning,
25 Mr. President, Your Honours, everyone.
1 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
2 Q. Good morning, General. Could you tell us your full name for the
3 record, please?
4 A. I am Bogdan Sladojevic, retired Colonel-General.
5 Q. And can you tell us where you were born?
6 A. I was born on 12 April 1946 in Bukvik, Gradiska, and I currently
7 reside in Banja Luka.
8 Q. So were you born in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
9 A. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, Republika Srpska, but in
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes.
11 Q. And where did you grow up?
12 A. Mostly in Banja Luka and Gradiska.
13 Q. And can you give us a brief outline of your educational
15 A. I can. I completed elementary school, the secondary school for
16 economics, and the military academy in Belgrade. In 1970, I became the
17 second lieutenant, and I was a platoon commander for two years. After
18 that, I was the commander of a tank squad for two years, then I was the
19 deputy battalion commander for two years, then an armoured battalion
20 commander for four years; and then between 19 -- may I?
21 Q. Just slow down a little bit for the interpreters. And if you
22 could tell us -- you were just getting into the year and the rank, so we
23 can understand what rank promotions you've had as you get into the higher
24 command positions. We appreciate the outline form. Just a little
25 slower. Thank you. Go ahead, please.
1 A. Thank you. Shall I repeat?
2 Q. No. Just keep going where you left off. And --
3 A. In 1981 to 1983, I completed the tactics command school in
4 Belgrade. After that, I was a teacher at the military school in Banja
5 Luka for a year. In 1984, I became the regiment commander at the Manjaca
6 firing ground. In 1990, I left for the Sombor garrison as commander of
7 the armoured brigade, and I stayed there until June 1992.
8 Q. And what rank were you when you were the commander of the Sombor
10 A. Colonel.
11 Q. All right. And go ahead and continue from there.
12 A. In 1992, I was transferred from Subotica. I became the commander
13 of the 11th Corps of Slavonia and Baranja in the Vukovar garrison, where I
14 stayed until April 1994. Between April 1994 and September, I was at the
15 disposal in the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia, and I was in
16 charge of the combat readiness affairs. In September, I was again
17 appointed as the commander of the mechanised brigade in the Sombor
18 garrison. I remained there until July 1995.
19 I believe that on the 6th of July 1995, I was invited to report to
20 the General Staff where they asked me whether I would like to join the
21 army of Republika Srpska. I agreed, and the order to that effect arrived
22 around the 8th of July at the Sombor garrison. I handed over my duties,
23 and I arrived around the 13th in the morning at the garrison in Bijeljina.
24 From there, I was transferred to Han Pijesak, and this is where I spent
25 the night on the 13th of July.
1 Q. We'll get into more detail of that, but can you -- how long did
2 you spend in the Han Pijesak headquarters area before you received your
3 other assignment?
4 A. From the 13th up to the 19th of July, I believe, if that's what
5 you meant.
6 Q. All right. And we'll get into those six days a bit later, but
7 where did -- where were you assigned on the 19th of July?
8 A. I was assigned to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps as the chief of the
9 operations department there.
10 Q. And can you continue your outline for us, so we can get a full
11 view of your career, sir?
12 A. Yes. I worked there until April 1996. In April 1996, the corps
13 was disbanded, and I was again transferred to the Main Staff as the chief
14 of the armoured units and I stayed there until 1997, January. And in
15 January, I received an order to move the Main Staff, i.e., to transform it
16 into the General Staff at the Bijeljina garrison. I was in charge of
17 that. We did that. And until July 1997, I was the chief of the
18 operations and staff sector in the General Staff.
19 In 1997, in September, I went to the school for national defence
20 which I completed in July 1998. Again, I returned to be the chief of the
21 operations and staff sector, and I remained there until 28 February 2002.
22 Q. And when did you retire?
23 A. On the 26th of February 2002.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. Let me talk about my ranks: Major, 1993; Lieutenant-Colonel,
1 1998; Colonel, 1991; General, 1998; and Lieutenant-General, the 2nd
2 January, 2002.
3 Q. All right. Thank you, General.
4 A. Thank you.
5 Q. Now, let's go back to the 13th of July, and try to go through it,
6 as best we can, day by day. The most important day for my questioning
7 will be the period around the 16th and 17th and 18th of July, but let's
8 start. You said you were in Bijeljina on the 13th, and you were then
9 taken to the headquarters, I believe. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes. It is correct. First, I arrived at the personnel in Han
11 Pijesak which was located in the hotel.
12 Q. Can you describe for us how you've -- just how the headquarters
13 was physically set up at that time? And I think you've said before you've
14 described Han Pijesak, you've described Crna Rijeka, you've described the
15 shelter or bunker. If you could describe those areas for us?
16 A. I can. When I arrived, I was received by General Miletic. He
17 told me that he was the chief of the operations and education
18 administration, and that he was also performing the duties of the Chief of
19 Staff in the Chief of Staff's absence. That's how I understood it. The
20 staff was in the shelter where I was, and the staff consisted of the Chief
21 of Staff, the operations and education administration, the administration
22 for branches, and the general office. This was the inner Main Staff.
23 The other bodies in Han Pijesak, in the hotel, there was the
24 morale guidance sector, the personnel sector, and the administration for
25 plan, development, and finances. Some 500 metres from the shelter, there
1 were two sheds. One contained the security administration and the other
2 the intelligence; and in Vlasenica, there was the rear command post with
3 all of the pertaining bodies.
4 Q. All right. Now, the Court has been to Crni Rijeka but did not get
5 to this shelter area. Can you describe what you mean by this shelter?
6 Where was it in relation to those others, the buildings that you said that
7 the intel and security were located?
8 A. It was to the right in a little forest, and let me just explain
9 briefly. There is a tunnel which is about 100 metres long, which used to
10 be an atomic shelter. It contained several rooms: The operations room,
11 two or three offices, a dining-room, an operations centre and the signals
12 centre. And it is very well secured. In front of it, there is a weakened
13 cottage, and there was a bunker there where General Mladic always stayed.
14 To the left, some 150 to 200 metres, there is a [indiscernible]
15 Containing these two sheds. And in those two sheds, there was the intel
16 department and the security department, respectively. The entrance to the
17 shelter had three or four doors that one had to go through in order to
18 come to the operations room and the signals centre.
19 Q. What place did you actually meet General Miletic that first time?
20 A. In the operations room, in the shelter.
21 Q. All right. And what information did you receive from him besides
22 what you've already said?
23 A. He told me that I would be the chief of the operations department,
24 either I or Ljubo Obradovic, who was also a colonel at the time. Colonel
25 Obradovic was on sick leave at the time, and the collegium was supposed to
1 consider whether Ljubo would be sent to the operations department at the
2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps or whether it would rather be me. He told me what
3 my duties were to be, and he told me that from now -- then on, I would be
4 working in the operations department.
5 Q. Operations department of where?
6 A. In his administration, in the operations and education
7 administration, which was the first department.
8 Q. At the Main Staff or at Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
9 A. No, no. In the operations and education administration of the
10 Main Staff, which is exactly where General Miletic received me.
11 Q. Okay. And did -- what happened? Did you end up getting that job
12 or did someone else get it, that job with the Main Staff?
13 A. No. When we returned from [indiscernible], from the
14 reconnaissance mission, General Miletic told me that it had been decided
15 that I would be transferred to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps as an
16 operations guy, which means that I would be assigned to the operations and
17 education department with the corps.
18 Q. Sorry. The interpreters didn't quite get it when you said "we
19 returned from," blank, "the reconnaissance mission." Can you say where
20 you returned from again?
21 A. Well, we went to Baljkovica to pursue a reconnaissance order, the
23 Q. Okay. We'll get into that. So on the 13th --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. McCloskey. This transfer to the
25 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps as an operations officer or whatever, was it to be
1 considered a promotion to the post that he had assigned you to before, or
2 was it same level or lower?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling just the truth. I was
4 still on paper the commander of the brigade in Sombor. It was not my
5 concern where I would be working. I was assigned to that other duty
6 temporarily. All of my administrative assignment was in Sombor. I was
7 paid from the garrison in Sombor. I was just temporarily assigned to work
8 there, and I was still on paper the commander of the 12th Motorised
9 Brigade in Sombor.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. And just on that one small point, can you just give us some idea
12 of the size of the Sombor Brigade as compared to the VRS, just so we get
13 an idea of what you were going from? Just very briefly.
14 A. The Sombor Brigade has the garrisons in Sombor, Kula, Apatin, and
15 Bogujevo. It had about 120 combat vehicles. The numerical strength in
16 peace was about 3.000 men, and in wartime between 5 and 6.000 men. And it
17 covers the entire region of Backa. That would be the long and the short
18 of it. Its area of responsibility is between the Danube and the Tisa
20 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, can you tell us, as I take it your first
21 understanding was that you would be working at the Main Staff, what did
22 you do on, if anything, that first day that you arrived there, the 13th,
23 and into the 14th?
24 A. I apologise. I understood General Miletic who told me that I
25 would be doing these things, and I would probably be the chief of the
1 operations and education department in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. I
2 assumed that it would be the best for me to go there, and I found it only
3 normal that I would be assigned to those duties, because Ljubo had been my
4 predecessor in the other work.
5 Q. Roughly, what time of day was it that you reported to General
6 Miletic in the shelter on the 13th of July?
7 A. It was in the morning.
8 Q. And did you see any other generals from the Main Staff, or any
9 other generals at all, in the area of the shelter or Crni Rijeka that day?
10 A. I didn't see anyone from that area, no, except for General
12 Q. And what did you do that first day on the 13th, after --
13 A. On the first day, the 13th, I became acquainted, and I think - I
14 can't be sure - that General Miletic told me to prepare a map of the
15 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and to study its area of responsibility. I went
16 down to a cellar. I found a map. There was a section missing. I think I
17 added it on the 18th and I copied that zone to myself, and I made my
18 preparations to be in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
19 Apart from that, I was part of the team. I regularly compiled
20 operations reports, until I went to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. That was
21 our main task. And it's also important to say that on the 14th or the
22 15th, a soldier was killed near the water works, about 100 metres away
23 from the shelter; and by night, we went to visit the men and to stand
24 watch with them from the staff command.
25 Q. All right. Now, were you given orders to go out to the soldiers
1 who were standing watch to help that situation in some way?
2 A. No, just around the command in a radius of 50 to 100 metres, not
4 Q. But who told you to go there?
5 A. There was a command and then we took turns. All of us from the
6 staff took turns to go, all the lower ranks, apart from the generals.
7 Q. But who gave you the order to go take part in this?
8 A. In what? I don't understand.
9 Q. You've just said that you've gone out and assisted the young
10 soldiers that were guarding the area, but who gave you the order to go out
11 and do that?
12 A. Probably General Miletic.
13 Q. Do you remember? We don't want you to speculate. Just give us
14 your best memory?
15 A. Well, there was a list, 18 to 20: Colonel Sladojevic, then Pejic,
16 and so on. There was a roster, actually, stuck to the door.
17 Q. All right. You mentioned that you took part during those few days
18 that you were there in the working on reports. The Trial Chamber has seen
19 reports from the Main Staff to the Presidency. Did you work on those
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Can you tell us what you did on those reports, just briefly?
23 A. Well, briefly, there was a team. We would meet in the evening,
24 collect all the information from the corps, and draft the report. There
25 was a different team leader every day, and everybody would bring the
1 information pertaining to their service. It would take us about an hour
2 to compose the report, then we would type it out and take it to General
3 Miletic for his signature; but, first, we would collect all the reports
4 from the corps and from the subordinate units.
5 Q. So you collected those reports from the corps and the subordinate
6 units in the evening hours?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And when would you present them to General Miletic?
9 A. It would start at about 4.00 p.m. and go on up to around 1900
10 hours, by code. When one code was processed, it would arrive.
11 Q. And about what time of -- would you present this to General
12 Miletic for his signature?
13 A. Around 1900 hours.
14 Q. Okay. And then it would be sent off to the Presidency when?
15 A. It would be encrypted right away, typed out, and then sent out to
16 all the units and the Presidency.
17 Q. Did you have a chance to look at some of those reports from the
18 16th to about, I believe, the 22nd in my office?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And did you notice your initials on any of them?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember which ones?
23 A. I think the 19th, 22nd, 23rd, but I can explain. There could be
24 an error, because the persons working on encryption would not change the
25 initials. So there might be an error, but most likely it's correct.
1 Q. All right. Well, if -- from your chronology, you thought you left
2 for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on the 19th, but you saw some initials?
3 A. I could be wrong, but I'm convinced I went on the 19th; however,
4 if you look at those codes and everything, it turns out it was the 23rd.
5 But to the best of my recollection, the images I have in my memory, I
6 think it was the 19th. That's my recollection.
7 Q. Fair enough. All right. Now, after you -- you remember being on
8 or going out and assisting the young soldiers on guard duty, what do you
9 remember on the days of the 15th, 16th, 17th? What else, if anything?
10 A. On the 15th, and the 16th, everything was normal. I didn't see
11 anything else. I have to say that as for the operations in Srebrenica,
12 and so on, I didn't have any information about that in the staff. I
13 didn't deal with that, except for what arrived through the commands and
14 the corps.
15 Q. All right. And one late afternoon or evening, did you receive
16 information that there -- you would be going somewhere the next day?
17 A. Colonel Trkulja hinted something, but I got the actual order in
18 the morning at around 7.30. I was to take a rifle. We didn't have
19 weapons. I went and was issued with a rifle, and then he said we were
20 going to the Zvornik area. He got a Puh car and we went. That was on the
21 17th of July.
22 Q. Okay. You said you got the actual order from Trkulja on the
23 morning of -- at 7.30?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. That was on the 17th?
1 A. Yes, the 17th.
2 Q. So the hints that -- you said you got hints before that. When did
3 you get the hints from General Trkulja that there would be something?
4 A. On the 16th, there was talk that something had happened in the
5 Zvornik area, but I think the information arrived from the Supreme
6 Command, not from the Drina Corps. I can't be sure, however. It was just
7 a rumour. We didn't see any papers or documents confirming that.
8 Q. Can you give us a little more information, if you have it, on what
9 was the problem that was rumoured to have happened, or what information
10 did you get?
11 A. We got information that a column of Muslims had been allowed
12 through on the Udrc-Crni Vrh axis towards Tuzla, and that they had passed
13 through the area of defence of the Zvornik Brigade.
14 Q. Now, who received the order to go to the Zvornik Brigade?
15 A. I got it orally. As for Colonel Trkulja, I don't know whether he
16 received it orally or in writing, but he didn't show me anything.
17 Q. Who did Trkulja get it from?
18 A. Most probably from General Miletic.
19 Q. Didn't you tell us last time that it was General Miletic that gave
20 him the order?
21 A. No. I don't remember.
22 Q. Didn't you tell us last time that you were present when General
23 Miletic gave Mr. Trkulja the order to go to Zvornik?
24 A. Yes, yes. That's right. I said that he gave him a piece of
25 paper. I didn't see what was written on the piece of paper, nor did
1 Trkulja show it to me. That's what I said.
2 Q. Okay. Who gave Trkulja a piece of paper?
3 A. General Miletic gave him that piece of paper.
4 Q. And when was that?
5 A. That was on the 17th, in the morning.
6 Q. And what, if anything, did you hear General Miletic say to
7 Mr. Trkulja?
8 A. I didn't hear. They were saying something, but I can't be sure
9 what. I don't want to speak about things I don't know.
10 Q. Okay. And what did, well, Colonel Trkulja tell you about the
12 A. When we were in the Puh, he said, "It's like a hunting party.
13 There was a kind of stampede in the Zvornik Brigade." I didn't say
14 anything, and then we arrived in the Baljkovica area. And he said that
15 General Miletic had hinted that something was going to happen in that
17 Q. What did he say that General Miletic hinted at?
18 A. He, Trkulja, said that he had given General Miletic a hint that
19 something would happen in the area.
20 Q. Okay. And had Colonel Trkulja told you that he had been in an
21 area the previous day, on the 16th?
22 A. No. But when I was preparing for this trial, from the information
23 of The Hague Tribunal, I got that Cerovic had spoken to Colonel Beara,
24 that Colonel Trkulja would come to the command post of the Drina Corps,
25 and solve the problem of some prisoners.
1 Q. Okay. Well --
2 A. Whether he went to the Vlasenica area on that day or not, I don't
3 know. But according to the documents, that would be correct.
4 Q. Okay. I'm not asking you about documents or what you just
5 referred to about Colonel Beara - that's the first I've heard of that -
6 and what you have learned from evidence that may or may not have been at
7 this trial. I'm not asking you about. I'm just asking you did Colonel
8 Trkulja tell you he had gone somewhere before, on the 16th?
9 A. Yes, but he didn't tell me where. He just told me he'd been
11 Q. Did he say that he'd been out in the field? I think that's the
12 word you used last time you told us about this.
13 A. Yes. That's right. He'd been out in the field, correct.
14 Q. So Colonel Trkulja told you that he'd been out in the field on the
15 16th. Do you know what -- what part of the field do you think he was
16 talking about?
17 A. He didn't tell me anything about that, but he didn't say he had
18 been in that area where we were. But whether he had been or not, I don't
20 Q. Okay. Then tell us who left from Crni Rijeka? You, Colonel
21 Trkulja. Anyone else?
22 A. When we got to Baljkovica, Colonel Stankovic was waiting there in
23 full combat gear, and Trkulja told me that Colonel Stankovic would come to
24 the Baljkovica area and wait for us there.
25 Q. Okay. So Colonel Stankovic was part of the original order to go
1 to Zvornik?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Okay. Now, who is Colonel Stankovic, or who was he at the time?
4 Can you tell us what position he had?
5 A. I understood him to be a clerk in the intelligence administration
6 of the Main Staff, the first officer --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Desk officer.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. And where did you get that information from?
10 A. I got that -- well, I concluded that because I know that before
11 that, Colonel Stankovic was in Doboj, and he arrived in the Main Staff;
12 and by the way he behaved, I saw Stankovic at Baljkovica then, and never
14 Q. Okay. So did you have a driver, you and Colonel Trkulja, when you
15 drove from Crni Rijeka?
16 A. No. No. We didn't have a driver. Colonel Trkulja was driving
17 the Puh himself.
18 Q. And where did you stop along the way to Zvornik, if anywhere?
19 A. On the way to Zvornik, we stopped in the command of the Drina
20 Corps. Colonel Trkulja stopped the Puh some 20 metres in front of the
21 command. I remained in the Puh, and Trkulja went into the command of the
22 Drina Corps. He opened the door, went in, into the operations room. He
23 spoke to the duty officer. I don't know who was on duty. All I know is
24 that he was there for ten minutes, maybe less. He came back, and he said,
25 "There is no one here who can give us detailed information about the
1 Zvornik Brigade. Let's go to the Baljkovica area."
2 Q. What was the reason you stopped by the Zvornik -- excuse me, the
3 Drina Corps in Vlasenica?
4 A. Probably Colonel Trkulja wanted to get some information. He
5 didn't want to go without having the proper information.
6 Q. Okay. Did he get any information at all, do you know?
7 A. No. He just said that most probably Colonel Lazic would come
8 there, that he had been appointed by the command to monitor or control the
9 Zvornik Brigade. And Colonel Lazic arrived about half an hour or an hour
10 after we did, to the Baljkovica area.
11 Q. Who is Colonel Lazic, for everyone?
12 A. Colonel Lazic was the chief of the operations department in the
13 Drina Corps.
14 Q. Okay. And as far as you know, where did you or Colonel Trkulja
15 receive the information to go to Baljkovica?
16 A. Colonel Trkulja probably got this information from General
18 Q. But was -- were you talking about going to Baljkovica before you
19 reached the Vlasenica headquarters?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So is it possible that the information came from the Vlasenica
22 headquarters to go to Baljkovica?
23 A. I think that it was expanded in the Drina Corps when we got to the
24 command. I don't think it was clear to us where we were supposed to be
1 Q. Okay. Now, Baljkovica is a big area, and I think there is Donja
2 Baljkovica and Gornja Baljkovica. Where did you decide to go?
3 A. We decided to go to the command post of the Zvornik Brigade, which
4 was on the slope overlooking the village of Baljkovica.
5 Q. Okay. What kind of command post was this? Was it a temporary
6 forward command post? Did it look like the command post of a battalion,
7 or could it have been a brigade forward command post? You know these
8 command posts better than I do. What kind was it?
9 A. I was there for only a short time, but I can say that it was the
10 command post of a battalion, but that the brigade commander, Colonel Vinko
11 Pandurevic, and two other commanding officers were there with him at that
12 command post. That was the first time I had seen Colonel Vinko
13 Pandurevic. It was at that command post. He was coming with Stankovic.
14 We said, "Hello." That was the command post. It was probably at
15 battalion level, the command post.
16 Q. Okay. We'll get to that, who you saw and everything, but we'll
17 try to go question by question. It won't take us long.
18 Can you describe: Were you able to drive right to this command
19 post, or did you have to get directions from anyone?
20 A. There is a good road leading up to it. We got there directly.
21 Q. Okay. And about, roughly, what time did you get there? What time
22 of day? I know exact times are impossible, but, roughly, what time did
23 you get there on the 17th?
24 A. Well, it was about 11.00 a.m.
25 Q. Okay. And let me go back a bit. Can you tell us what was your
1 understanding of why you were going there with Trkulja to meet Stankovic?
2 What was your purpose, as far as you knew?
3 A. To the best of my knowledge, it was to let the column of Muslims
4 go along the Udrc-Crni Vhr-Tuzla axis to let them through.
5 Q. Were you there to see anything about why they were allowed to go
7 A. 90 per cent.
8 Q. Was someone in trouble for letting them go through, with the Main
9 Staff, as far as you knew at that time?
10 A. I think it was Colonel Stankovic. He was, because he was in full
11 combat gear and he asked Vinko whether there were any indicia that the
12 Muslims were about to attack Zvornik.
13 Q. It may have been a translation issue. Was anyone in the Zvornik
14 Brigade potentially in trouble for allowing the Muslims to go through,
15 with the Main Staff?
16 A. I think the Chief of Staff could be held responsible, and Colonel
17 Vinko Pandurevic.
18 Q. Okay. Did your trip to the Zvornik area have anything to do with
19 going to determine that situation, to see if someone should be held
20 accountable for that, letting the Muslims through?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And tell us who you saw and what you learned, what you did,
23 pursuant to those orders. You started doing that.
24 A. I found Colonel Stankovic there. Vinko Pandurevic reported to him
25 and Trkulja. He briefed them. And I concluded that the first wave had
1 gone through fighting, and that there had been enormous casualties. After
2 that, the corridor was opened up, and the remainder passed through without
3 any fighting. That was my conclusion, and Colonel Trkulja accepted this.
4 Q. You had told us you'd learned that numbers of killed at that day.
5 Do you remember the numbers that you learned that day, of Serb soldiers
7 A. Yes. I think -- well, first, I concluded that they were
8 exaggerating the numbers, but it was approximately correct. The Chief of
9 Staff was afraid we would be taking some measures because they had let the
10 column through. When I was questioned by the investigators, I wrote down
11 there were 49 killed and about 120 out of combat.
12 And this information was not checked because two or three
13 operative reports from the Zvornik Brigade arrived in the Drina Corps, and
14 then from the Drina Corps to the Main Staff, saying that there were a lot
15 of casualties.
16 Q. You mentioned the Chief of Staff. Who are you referring to in
17 that statement?
18 A. Obrenovic. He was the Chief of Staff. I knew him from before the
19 war because I was his teacher in 1984.
20 Q. And did you learn -- did you get information from Obrenovic when
21 you were there at that command post near Baljkovica?
22 A. Yes. We got information. He arrived later, and he said, "In
23 town, there are major protests. Quite a few people have been killed.
24 There will be problems with the brigades." That's what he told Vinko
25 Pandurevic and Colonel Trkulja.
1 Q. What was he referring to, as far as you could tell?
2 A. He was referring to the men killed and wounded from the Zvornik
4 Q. Did you hear descriptions of the terrible fighting from Commander
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did you hear that -- similar descriptions from Chief of Staff
9 A. Yes. Can I? Vinko reported what had happened on the 16th, and I
10 think the last wave went through on the 17th in the morning, up to about
11 800 hours. And from his description of the events, I understood that in
12 the first wave, there had been heavy fighting; and in the second wave, he
13 probably opened up a corridor and they all went through in the direction
14 of Tuzla.
15 I concluded that the Muslim artillery had not been precise in its
16 targeting and that they had inflicted major losses on their own forces,
17 because there was unprotected manpower out in the open. And
18 Lieutenant-Colonel Obrenovic explained that there had been three
19 self-propelled guns and that these Muslims had captured some of those, and
20 that they had fired on both our forces and their own forces but from
22 Q. Okay. Now, when you were there on the 17th, do you recall if that
23 corridor was still open, or do you know, when you were there?
24 A. When I arrived, everything was calm. Vinko arrived from the
25 left-hand side. He was talking to somebody on Motorola, and he told
1 Colonel Stankovic that he was establishing contact with the Muslim side in
2 order to deal with the problem of casualties, and I no longer saw the
3 column passing through.
4 Q. Had you seen the column passing through in front of your eyes
5 before that?
6 A. No. I did not have a place from which to see it, since we had
7 come from below the hill side.
8 Q. Okay. The translation I got is that after there was a talking on
9 a Motorola, that you no longer saw the column passing through. Did you
10 ever, while you were there, see the column of Muslims passing through the
12 A. No.
13 Q. What else do you remember occurring while you're with these
14 officers at the command post?
15 A. I remember that Colonel Lazic arrived maybe half an hour later,
16 and that Colonel Trkulja showed a lot of attitude towards him. He was
17 arrogant, and he was questioning him about being late arriving at the
18 command post. We did not talk about the column, about the front line.
19 Lazic and Trkulja were only discussing, while he was in the chief of the
20 Drina Corps, why it was Colonel Andric who was give than duty. The
21 discussion went on; and, finally, Trkulja, to shrug him off, told him, "If
22 you continue, you will not be even what you are now."
23 Q. All right. So I take it Lazic was angry that Andric got the Chief
24 of Staff job to replace General Krstic?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. I'm sorry, I may have asked you this, but can you describe what
2 Colonel Trkulja's position was at the time and rank?
3 A. He was a retired colonel, and he volunteered in the army of
4 Republika Srpska. The law allowed him to do that. He had arrived from
5 Leskovac, and he was the chief of the armoured and mechanised units with
6 the Main Staff.
7 Q. Thank you for reminding me of that.
8 All right. And how long did you stay in the Baljkovica area that
10 A. A long time. Maybe 15 or 16 hours --
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not correct whether she heard
12 full 15 or 16 hours or up to 1500 or 1600 hours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sladojevic can you repeat how many hours
14 you think you were there? The reason is that the interpreters didn't
15 catch it.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be sure, but I believe that
17 I stayed there between 1100 and 1600 hours; that is, the end of the time I
18 spent. And we worked effectively from 11.00 and 1300 hours, and from 1300
19 hours on was the time when the two were discussing those issues that I
20 have explained to you. In other words, half of the time we worked
21 effectively, and the other time of the time was spent in that discussion.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. All right. And when did you -- about what time did you leave that
25 command post area?
1 A. Stankovic left the command post first. He didn't say where he was
2 going. Trkulja and Lazic were still discussing matters. From that place,
3 we went to the command of the Drina Corps.
4 Q. Okay. Who did?
5 A. Trkulja and I. Stankovic did not go with us.
6 Q. About what time did you and Trkulja leave from the command post at
8 A. Sometime between 1500 and 1600 hours.
9 Q. Okay. And you went to the Drina Corps command, and what did you
10 do there?
11 A. We had lunch there.
12 Q. And then what?
13 A. Then Colonel Trkulja and I went to inspect the units in Konjevic
14 Polje, in the place called Kasaba. Some of the troops of the 65
15 Protection Motorised troops were there. Those were young soldiers. He
16 spoke to a lieutenant there for a while, and then we inspected the
17 ambushes that had been set up in two or three places on the roads leading
18 from the forests to the main road.
19 Q. Did you spend the night in Vlasenica that night?
20 A. Then we went to the rear command post in Vlasenica. It was
21 already late at the time. We had dinner there, and we spent that night
23 Q. Okay. Did you go look at the troops in Nova Kasaba and other
24 places before you spent the night or the next day?
25 A. On that day, on the following day, we looked at the troops.
1 Q. Okay. So on the 17th, you went to Vlasenica, spent the night; and
2 on the 18th, you looked at the troops?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. On the 18th, in the morning, Trkulja said that we should go and
6 see what was going on on the main road between Vlasenica and Konjevic
7 Polje, and further on towards Bratunac and Srebrenica.
8 Q. And did do you that?
9 A. We did. We did that. We inspected the whole road. We did not
10 make any detours. We arrived in Srebrenica. We turned around in a
11 square. And we returned to the points where there were soldiers. We
12 spent sometime talking to them, some of them. We passed through without
13 talking to anybody. We stopped by a Praga. We spoke to the soldiers
14 there, and then Colonel Trkulja said, "Okay, let's go to the Main Staff."
15 Q. And then where did you go?
16 A. We arrived at the Main Staff, at the shelter, sometime between
17 12.00 and 1.00 or maybe 11.00 and 1.00. I can't remember when exactly.
18 Q. And that's 1.00 p.m. in the afternoon?
19 A. Yes, 1300 hours, yes.
20 Q. Okay. And did you or Trkulja report to anyone?
21 A. None of us did. I believe that he reported orally to General
23 Q. How do you know that?
24 A. He went to his office.
25 Q. In the shelter?
1 A. In the shelter, yes. There were two officers in the shelter.
2 Q. And did you go with him?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And did Trkulja tell you what he had told -- what he reported to
5 General Miletic?
6 A. Never. There was not much to tell, anyway.
7 Q. Well, did you and Colonel Trkulja agree on the judgement of Vinko
8 Pandurevic, or did you have differing views on his actions relating to the
10 A. Well, let me say, while we were on the way to Baljkovica, we had a
11 wrong opinion. But when we arrived in Baljkovica, and when I explained to
12 him in professional terms, we agreed on our common opinion. And we said
13 that the situation should be conveyed as it was, and we were of the
14 opinion that no measures should have been taken against the brigade.
15 Q. Can you just explain why you think that Pandurevic's actions were
16 correct and that nothing, no measures, should be taken against him?
17 A. Well, Pandurevic had taken the right steps. In the first part, he
18 engaged in fighting; and then when he estimated, as the commander, that he
19 would suffer losses, the most realistic and logical thing was for him to
20 open the corridor up and to let the army go through, which is what he did,
21 and it is a good thing that he did that.
22 Q. Were you aware of any other battles in the Bosnian war where Serbs
23 lost about 49 people in such a short time period?
24 A. I'm not aware of any such situation. I didn't know of any.
25 Q. All right.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'm almost finished but maybe ten
2 minutes left, but it might be a good time to teak a break.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 25-minute break as from now.
4 Thank you.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. All right. General, we left off, it was the day of the 18th, and
10 you've said that Colonel Trkulja had gone to General Miletic's office in
11 the bunker or the shelter, as you've called it. That day, or the next
12 day, that is, either the 18th or the 19th, were you called upon by anyone
13 to discuss your views about the situation that you'd seen in Zvornik?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. And it was shortly after that, you thought it was
16 around the 19th, that you actually left and took up your position at the
17 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
18 A. I believe that that is correct.
19 Q. All right. And I'm going to show you a document now. I know
20 you've seen this before. It's number 65 ter 927. It will come up on your
21 screen and in the original B/C/S text. And I'll bring it up so hopefully
22 you can read it, and we see that it's entitled-- that it's from the Main
23 Staff, dated 17 July?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And we can see that, in paragraph 1, it talks about the three
1 colonels that you've spoken of: Trkulja, Stankovic and yourself. Is that
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Now, as you look at this, had you seen this written order prior to
5 being sent to Zvornik on the 17th?
6 A. I saw this order two days prior to my first interview in October
8 Q. Okay. So the first time you saw the order was a couple of days
9 before speaking to Mr. Ruez. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. And how did you -- who showed it to you?
12 A. Usually, there were preparations either -- by the Ministry of
13 Defence prior to any interview. I was invited to come to the Ministry of
14 Defence, and this was given to me by Cvetkovic, who was the main legal
15 officer at the Ministry of Defence. And he was the one who prepared us
16 for our interviews with The Hague Tribunal, and this occurred in an office
17 or a room at the Ministry of Defence. At the same time, as I was leaving,
18 Colonel Jeserovic [as interpreted] showed it to me and said, "This will be
19 used in your preparations, and this will be used when they interview you."
20 I received this paper at the Ministry of Defence.
21 Q. Okay. Let me clear up the record. Didn't quite get the names.
22 The legal officer that you spoke about, can you repeat his name for us?
23 A. Cvetkovic. He was a civilian.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. He was the one who prepared us, who briefed us.
1 Q. And the Colonel you spoke to, you said, as you were leaving, what
2 Colonel was that?
3 A. As I was coming to the preparations, Colonel Jeserovic.
4 Q. Let me just try to see if it's correct, is it Colonel Keserovic
5 with a K?
6 A. K, K, K, yes.
7 Q. Just to clear this up, who actually gave you the 17 July document,
8 which one of these people, if --
9 A. Keserovic showed it to me, and then Cvetkovic actually gave it to
11 Q. And what did -- is the Keserovic -- the Colonel Keserovic that
12 gave it to you, do you know if that's the Colonel Keserovic that's
13 mentioned in this paragraph?
14 A. He's on the same list as me, and he was at the same type of
15 preparations a day before me.
16 Q. Okay. And can you tell us what Colonel Keserovic's position was
17 in July of 1995?
18 A. I believe that he was the commander of the 1st Battalion of the
19 military police, the 1st Krajina Corps. I don't know exactly, but this is
20 what I believe he was.
21 Q. Okay. And he is -- he's the same person in paragraph 3, and he
22 received an assignment according to this order.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Okay. Having to do with the Bratunac-Milici area; is that
1 A. Correct, correct.
2 Q. Try to let me finish; otherwise, it will be very hard to translate
3 what we are saying.
4 All right. So did you have any involvement with Keserovic and
5 this description of items in number 3 of this order?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right. Now, as we read this order - and I won't go through
8 and read it all - but the first two paragraphs appear to be involved in
9 what your assignment was, particularly the first, of course. It says
10 basically: "Assist in joining of the VRS and MUP forces, planning and
11 coordination combat operation, to block, crush, and destroy lagging Muslim
12 forces." It doesn't say anything about checking up on Vinko Pandurevic
13 and seeing if he's -- seeing why he let the column through.
14 Can you explain the language of this order? How do we -- how do
15 we know that this is the order related to what your job was?
16 A. I understood the assignment given to me by Trkluja as applying
17 only to Baljkovica. I never assumed that it said planning, organisation
18 of combat activities. I believe that the three of us did not even have
19 the strength or the means to pursue this matter or to carry out this
21 If we were to carry this order out, we should have gone to the 1st
22 Zvornik Brigade to coordinate with them, which we didn't do, and I believe
23 that nothing contained in the second passage was ever done in respect of
24 carrying this order out, and I claim this with full responsibility.
25 Q. All right. Now, in your interview of 2002, you and Mr. Ruez
1 discussed this order a bit. Mr. Ruez --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- mentioned that he had received this through the Ministry of
4 Defence of the RS, and you told him --
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. -- at the time, that one of the generals had given it to the
7 Ministry of Defence. Who did you tell Mr. Ruez had given this order to
8 the Ministry of Defence?
9 A. I said to the general that it must have been General Miletic, but
10 I was wrong. This document was at the Ministry of Defence, and the
11 Minister of Defence at the time was Colonel Mane Milovanovic, who sent it
12 to The Hague Tribunal. I did not like the fact that he had sent it to the
13 Tribunal because only 10 per cent of the things contained in this order
14 were ever carried out; whereas, so many other things which were more
15 pertinent, more relevant, more dangerous, have never been sent to The
16 Hague Tribunal. That's why I asked him who had sent this.
17 Q. Okay. And did -- yesterday in my office, did you clear that up
18 and tell me that it was a mistake what you told Mr. Ruez, and that you
19 meant Milovanovic?
20 A. Yes, of course.
21 Q. And did you tell me about one other mistake -- sorry, go ahead.
22 A. I asked to see who was it who sent it, and I came by the
23 information that it was Mane Milovanovic who had sent it to the Tribunal.
24 All I was interested in was the truth, nothing else. I wanted to get to
25 the bottom of this matter.
1 Q. You also mentioned that General Miletic had some sort of access to
2 the archives of the Main Staff, to Mr. Ruez, didn't you?
3 A. Correct. I said that I assumed he had access to the archives, but
4 on a second thought I don't think he did.
5 Q. Well, can you explain why it is that you told Mr. Ruez that he had
6 access to the archives and now you think you're mistaken?
7 A. Because I could never establish that for a fact. I assumed that
8 this order had arrived from Belgrade rather than from the Ministry of
9 Defence. Only when I established for a fact that it arrived from the
10 Ministry of Defence did I change my opinion.
11 Q. All right. General, thank you very much, and I don't have any
12 further questions.
13 A. Thank you as well.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Now, let's confirm the
15 time you need for the respective cross-examinations. Mr. Zivanovic, you
16 had asked for 20 minutes.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I need just five minutes, Your Honour. I have
18 actually just one question.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you so much. Mr. Meek, you had
20 asked for 30.
21 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour I had asked for 30. I don't believe I
22 won't use that. I may not use any.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. Nikolic, you had asked for ten minutes.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will not
25 have any questions for this witness.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.
2 Mr. Stojanovic, you had asked for ten minutes.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Likewise, Your Honour. I won't
4 have any questions for this witness.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Fauveau, you had asked for an hour
6 and a half.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that it
8 will be rather half an hour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Krgovic?
10 MR. KRGOVIC: Less than ten minutes, if any.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Haynes, you asked for 30
13 MR. HAYNES: Fifteen or 20.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Who is going first? Mr. Zivanovic, could you
15 please introduce yourself to the witness?
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I will.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
18 Q. Good morning, sir. My name is Zoran Zivanovic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. I am Defence counsel for Vujadin Popovic. I have only one
21 question for you. You said here, and that's on page 19, line 14 and 15.
22 You spoke about an event when you arrived in Han Pijesak - and this was on
23 the 14th or the 15th of July - that a soldier was killed. I wanted to ask
24 you whether you knew about the circumstances of that soldier's death: Who
25 killed him, how?
1 A. He was killed near the water tank which supplies the Main Staff,
2 I think, probably at around 1.00 at night. He was a young soldier. Most
3 probably, he was killed by people pulling out from Srebrenica or Zepa, and
4 then we strengthened the security and regularly checked on the young
5 soldiers. And it's true that the soldier was killed.
6 Q. Just one more question: Do you know at that time there were such
7 events generally?
8 A. Yes. I can say so. I can't tell you the precise dates and places
9 and times, but I believe so.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
13 Ms. Fauveau.
14 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
15 Q. Sir, my name is Natacha Fauveau Ivanovic, and I am Defence counsel
16 for General Miletic. You mentioned General Mane Milovanovic. He was the
17 Chief of Staff of the army of Republika Srpska; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. You come from -- you came to Bosnia from Serbia on the 13th of
20 July 1995. When you arrived in the army of Republika Srpska, you knew
21 that General Milovanovic was the Chief of Staff. Were you aware of that
22 at the time?
23 And after spending a few days in the Main Staff, you went to the
24 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, did you not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. While you were in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, you knew that
2 General Milovanovic was the chief of the Main Staff?
3 A. Yes, I did. Nobody could take that duty over.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down a little bit, please. Thank you.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
6 Q. When you arrived in the Main Staff, in the shelter, where you
7 received by General Miletic, could you tell us who was in the shelter at
8 the time?
9 A. It was only General Miletic.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down please, Ms. Fauveau.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Is it possible that not a single aide was there?
13 A. There was no one there except the Chief of Staff. All the others
14 had posts further away, by position and by function.
15 Q. So, even in a normal situation, when General Milovanovic was in
16 the staff of the VRS, only General Milovanovic was in the bunker as
17 regards persons able to command the Army of Republika Srpska; is that
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: There is no foundation for his knowledge regarding
22 that question. He was only there for six days.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: He can only speculate, I think, where General
24 Milovanovic would have been.
25 Proceed with your next question, Madam Fauveau, please.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
2 Q. [No interpretation]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We have not received -- one moment, General, please.
4 We haven't on record the interpretation of your question, so if you could
5 kindly repeat it again, Madam Fauveau, please.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Sir, when you arrived on the 13th of July at the Main Staff of the
8 Republika Srpska army, General Miletic introduced himself to you as the
9 chief of the operations and training of the Main Staff of the Republika
10 Srpska army; is that correct?
11 A. He introduced himself as the chief of the administration for
12 education and operations, which is a more general and broader term.
13 Q. Did you have the information that General Miletic had replaced
14 General Milovanovic in the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army?
15 A. No. I didn't have that information.
16 Q. When did you learn that General Miletic had assumed the position
17 of General Milovanovic in the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army?
18 A. As far as I know, this never happened. He could not have taken
19 over and he did not.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can I show the witness Exhibit
21 number 4D -- 5D430. 5D430.
22 Q. Sir, you have just told us that your initials can be found on this
23 combat report?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This was drafted on the 19th of July.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness the last
2 page of this combat report.
3 Q. What I would like to know, particularly, is not your initials
4 because you've already told us this might be a mistake. Actually, it is
5 the name of General Miletic that I'm interested in. It is in -- indicated
6 here as "representing the head of the General Staff" [as interpreted]?
7 A. Let me explain to the Honourable Chamber. General Miletic should
8 have had an order for that. Two orders should precede any standing in for
9 somebody. The first one, 90 days prior to the order coming to -- into the
10 effect, and it is issued by the superior officer.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry to interrupt. I just -- the booth
13 translation was in a tough spot. But if they could look at the English,
14 and they may not have the English translation. But the title that is
15 referred to has been officially called "standing in for the Chief of
16 Staff," and they were struggling with representing Main Staff, something
17 to that degree. And I think it's an important enough issue that we should
18 get that translation correct, that it's "standing in for the Main Staff"
19 is how that document has -- is referenced.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, in replacement of the words "as
21 representing the head of General Staff"?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau. Do you agree to that? It's a
24 question of translation basically.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a lot of
1 problems with the interpretation. But the witness has been following the
2 document in B/C/S; and as long as he understands what this is all about,
3 this is what matters.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's refer the witness back to the
5 document, which is still visible.
6 Can you explain to us, General, the meaning of the words at the
7 bottom of that document: "Zastupa nacelnika staba, General-Major Radivoje
8 Miletic." What does that mean to you as a military officer, with
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain. For this, there
11 should be an order: The first one from the superior officer, and this
12 should have been drafted by the commander of the Main Staff, which was
13 General Mladic at the time. And this order can be in effect for no longer
14 than 90 [Realtime transcript read in error "19"] days, and this order
15 should contain this: Who he is standing in for, for how long, and into
16 which payment bracket would that position fall.
17 As far as I know, General Miletic, by position, was in the sixth
18 salary bracket. In order to be performing these duties, he should have
19 been reassigned to the third salary bracket. The salary in this case is
20 very important because the salary carries certain obligations with it. If
21 his position continues after 90 days, then this assignment should be
22 preceded by an order signed by the president of the republic at the salary
23 bracket continues applying and all the benefits with it.
24 When this period expires, he has to be appointed to that position
25 permanently, or rather, somebody else has to take up that position
1 permanently. In other words, nobody can stand in for the chief of the
2 Main Staff after that period. In this case, the Chief of Staff is the
3 Chief of Staff of the whole army, not of only one command post.
4 And I believe that there was no need for this person standing in
5 for the Chief of Staff and signing his orders. He could have performed
6 his duties because he was the most senior officer in the staff, but it was
7 not legal for him to stand in for the Chief of Staff and to sign his
8 orders for him.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Let me ask you a question just to have
10 these things clear in my mind. Many a time we have come across documents
11 here signed by an individual who is not exactly the person who is sending
12 the letter. And in those cases, before the signature, and before the name
13 who is actually -- should be actually sending the letter, there are the
14 words "Za."
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Za: That is according to the law.
16 But his full name has to be typed, and he can use the word "Za" only if he
17 is legally entitled to stand in for somebody. For example, it could read
18 that I drafted a document and that it was signed on my behalf by my
19 deputy, who is entitled to do so by the establishment position and by the
20 salary bracket. He can sign on my behalf when I'm not there.
21 In this case, the case of General Miletic, the only thing we know
22 about him was that he was a chief, and he did not have any other functions
23 or positions, and his duty could only be to perform his job and nothing
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
1 JUDGE PROST: Sorry. I just have one additional question, as
2 well, for you sir. In your previous answer, when you were describing the
3 nature of the order signed as standing in for, you indicated at page 48,
4 line 5, "And this order can be in effect for no longer than 19 days?" Is
5 that a correct number? 19 seems an odd number.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can you answer that question, please?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first order is in effect 90 days
8 or a bit more maybe, and the second order is also in effect for 90 days.
9 And the number was 90.
10 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 Yes, Madam Fauveau.
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Sir, you have just told us that General Miletic was only a chief,
15 and he did not have any other positions or functions. When you say that
16 he was only a chief, you meant the administration for training and
17 operations; is that correct?
18 A. Precisely, yes, administration for training and operations.
19 That's what he was chief -- the chief of.
20 Q. Do you agree that when General Milovanovic was not physically
21 present in the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army --
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that there
23 is a problem with the interpretation. In B/C/S, there are two different
24 words describing the General Staff, the Main Staff; whereas, in the French
25 language, there is just one word, and I believe that all the confusion
1 arises from that.
2 I really don't know how to talk to the witness if we are going to
3 be ending up with this confusion between the different terms that apply to
4 different bodies.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: According to you, Madam Fauveau, in B/C/S, which
6 is -- which one is the correct translation of "Main Staff"?
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] The Main Staff. And I'm talking
8 about one part of the Main Staff, and I believe it could be translated as
9 the staff of the Main Staff, which is the same thing in B/C/S which is the
10 staff of the Main Staff. In French, this does not exist.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So my suggestion is now that the
12 interpreters, both the English and the French ones and the Serbo-Croat
13 ones, have heard what you have to say, if we could kindly use that word
14 only, unless there is an indication that it's another word -- the other
15 word that needs to be used. We would appreciate that. It would simplify
16 matters. Okay.
17 Madam Fauveau.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm trying to -- I'm going to try
19 and clarify and explain the difference with the witness.
20 Q. Sir, when we are talking about the staff of the Main Staff, we are
21 talking about one part of the Main Staff, which does not comprise the
22 entire Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army?
23 A. First of all, let me tell you that the Main Staff consisted of
24 only two persons at the same time, which was Tito and Mladic. In all the
25 other formations of the world, in all the other armies of the world, there
1 is the General Staff and the Main Staff. This particular staff that we
2 are talking about, where General Miletic belonged to, is actually the
3 fourth part of the General Staff, approximately, by the positions and the
4 number of people in it.
5 According to the salary brackets and establishments, it may be
6 one-third of the General Staff, and it is more better represented in the
7 logistics or the rear sector than the General Staff by the positions and
8 by the number of people in it.
9 Q. When General Miletic was not physically present -- when General
10 Milovanovic was not physically present at the staff of the Main Staff of
11 the Republika Srpska army, General Miletic could replace him in certain
12 duties; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. He could perform some of his duties, but he could not sign
14 documents on his behalf. He could not sign them directly or as preceded
15 by the word "Za," standing in for. Neither of the two is allowed by the
17 Q. When we are talking about certain activities that General Miletic
18 could perform, which would normally be within the purview of General
19 Milovanovic, is it correct that these activities were strictly limited to
20 the activities performed within the Main Staff by the Main Staff of the
21 Republika Srpska army. And this time I mean the staff of the Main Staff.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment.
23 Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Same objection. I don't think six days makes him
25 an expert enough to answer that question. I don't think there has been a
1 foundation for that. This is a VJ officer that went and worked for the
2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We think that the -- your submission, Mr. McCloskey,
6 relating to the mere six days of his stay there, is important but it is
7 not of absolute importance. It can be of relative importance, and it can
8 be outweighed by the knowledge obtained by the witness from other sources
9 either prior, then, or afterwards.
10 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and that's all my objection is. He may have
12 gained the knowledge afterward, but if we could just have a little
13 foundation so that these questions make more sense. I don't need him to
14 go into all of it - I don't think any of us do - before a question like
15 that, because there is more information out there.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So now, General Sladojevic, we appreciate, of
17 course, that you were there for a short time. But if you are in a
18 position to answer Madam Fauveau's question, please do so within your best
19 abilities. I will repeat the question to you myself.
20 Madam Fauveau asked you the following: "When we are talking about
21 certain activities that General Miletic could perform, which would
22 normally be within the purview of General Milovanovic, is it correct that
23 these activities were strictly limited to activities performed within the
24 Main Staff, by the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army. And this time
25 I mean the staff of the Main Staff."
1 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: My problem with that is if it's a general --
3 pardon me, if it's a general question, I think he can answer that. But
4 this is asked talking about the specific situation of General Miletic and
5 Milovanovic which went on for a long time, and he doesn't know anything
6 about except for those six days. So as a general question, can a person
7 in this position do this, I don't have a problem with that. But when he's
8 being referred specifically to this situation and these individuals, I
9 don't think there has been any foundation to establish that he knows that.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: But we'll see whether he knows it or not, because he
11 may know it or he may not know it. If he doesn't know it, he's going to
12 tell us that. If he knows it, we will expect an answer from him.
13 Yes, General. You still remember my question, or rather, Madam
14 Fauveau's question?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember the question, and I
16 believe that you're all right. As far as I know, from confidential
17 sources, General Miletic could only issue orders to let UNPROFOR columns
18 through, so that they wouldn't wait, and some other auxiliary things and
19 things that didn't really matter that much. He did not have any authority
20 to sign any other orders or issue any other orders.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: My apologies to you.
24 Madam Fauveau, your next question, please.
25 JUDGE PROST: Sorry. Just before that, if I could just clarify
1 with you, sir. You say at page 54, lines 1 and 2, "as far as I know from
2 confidential sources." What sources are you speaking about in rendering
3 that statement, sir? When you make reference in your answer to
4 "confidential sources," who are you speaking about? What sources?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember -- it was about
6 UNPROFOR? The last question, my last answer?
7 JUDGE PROST: Your last answer, sorry, yes.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a document indicated that
9 General Miletic was entitled to let those column through. I may have
10 misspoken when I said that.
11 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Sir, I believe that there is an interpretation error. And in
14 order to avoid any confusion or controversies with the Prosecutor, it is
15 on page 54, line 2. You said that General Miletic could issue certain
16 orders that concerned UNPROFOR, but there is again a mistake. I didn't
17 say that he could issue orders, but that he could carry out orders.
18 A. Those were approvals. I -- this would be internal documents which
19 did not matter.
20 Q. In any case, General Miletic could not himself decide on the
21 contents of those documents. He could only draft, put into writing
22 something that somebody else had decided already?
23 A. Yes. This was a standard form document that went on being copied
24 again and again.
25 Q. I would like to show you the first page of the document 5D430.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We have that document already. I
2 just want to show the witness its first page.
3 Q. Sir, you see this document was sent to the president of the
4 Republika Srpska and also to the forward command post of the Main Staff of
5 the Republika Srpska army; is that correct?
6 A. Yes. It says, "IKM 2," which is exactly that.
7 Q. And General Milovanovic, according to the information that you had
8 at the time, during the time when you were at the Main Staff and the
9 Sarajevo Corps, was posted to this forward command post?
10 A. Yes. He was the commander of that command post, and he was also
11 supposed to send reports signed by commander Lieutenant-Colonel
12 Milovanovic. He was at the same level with the different corps. He was
13 subordinated to the chief of the Main Staff.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: There is some confusion here. Perhaps you can help
15 us, Madam Fauveau and Witness. The question was: "And General
16 Milovanovic, according to the information you had at the time, during the
17 time you were at the Main Staff," so we are referring to that specific
18 time and Sarajevo Corps" was posted to this forward command post."
19 And then your answer is: "Yes. He was the commander of that
20 command post, and he was also supposed to send reports signed by commander
21 Lieutenant-Colonel Milovanovic. He was at the same level with the
22 different corps. He was subordinated to the chief of the Main Staff."
23 What do you mean "he was also supposed to send reports signed by
24 commander Lieutenant-Colonel Milovanovic"? We are talking of the same
25 person, obviously, here. So are you suggesting that as commander of that
1 command post, it was his responsibility and his duty to send out reports
2 signed by him? Is this what you're stating?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me explain. When a command post
4 is established, an order is drafted by the commander of the Main Staff.
5 This order appoints the commander, the composition, the command post
6 location, and logistical support. Usually, he is responsible for one
7 area, for one region, and that zone covers an area equalling the area of
8 responsibility of one corps.
9 He receives reports from all of the subordinated commanders; in
10 other words, everybody in the area is subordinated to him. This means
11 that he receives reports from his subordinated officers, the same evening
12 he compiles his own reports and sends it to the Main Staff. And the Main
13 Staff sends him information similar to the information that you see on the
14 screen, and this is what we call an exchange of information in keeping
15 with the law. This is provided for by the law.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. One moment.
17 Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one correction in the
19 transcript that has led to this confusion. On page 55, line 21, the
20 witness said that he reports to the commander of the Main Staff; whereas,
21 in the transcript, it says the chief of the Main Staff, hence the
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
24 Your next question, Madam Fauveau, please.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Sir, when you arrived at the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska
2 army, General Miletic could not decide that you would be transferred to
3 the Sarajevo Corps?
4 A. No. It wasn't him. He told me that it would be the collegium who
5 would decide that, and the collegium is composed of the commander of the
6 Main Staff, the chief of the Main Staff, and all the assistants. General
7 Miletic was a supplementary member of the collegium who would sometimes
8 attend its meetings, sometimes not; and when he did attend, he was in
9 charge of taking the minutes of the meetings; again, in accordance with
10 the law.
11 Q. You're talking about the security service and the guards around
12 the shelter. Was it something normal, these guards and the security that
13 was provided around the shelter?
14 A. Yes, in the war that is normal.
15 Q. General Miletic himself did not decide on that. He just drafted
16 an order naming those who would be standing guard duty during certain
17 periods of time?
18 A. In this particular case, it was General Mladic who issued a
19 decision, which was supposed to be implemented by General Miletic. It was
20 a war zone, the situation was dangerous, and it was only normal to do
22 Q. In other words, General Miletic was only in a position to write
23 orders and other documents according to the instructions received from the
24 General commander of the army or the chief of the General or the Main
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: They decided to cut me off apparently.
3 [Microphone not activated]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry. It's not working.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: It is working now.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: There we go. That is a direct misstatement of his
8 previous question. He said Mladic issued orders and Miletic implemented
9 orders, not that Miletic just wrote issued orders. She can't state it
10 that way.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: There was also a distinction made between drafting
13 and issuing the orders. But anyway, let me consult with my colleagues.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Fauveau, I think the witness himself is in
16 agreement with Mr. McCloskey as you could confirm. So perhaps you could
17 either rephrase your question or proceed with another question. It's up
18 to you.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I'm going to ask a very straightforward question: General Miletic
21 was not in a position to make decisions. Can we say that?
22 A. Correct. He was not in that position. He did not make any
23 decisions, as far as I know.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: If you need to consult --
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Just a moment, a minute or half a
1 minute even, maybe. Thank you.
2 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we won't have any
6 more questions for this witness.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
8 Mr. Krgovic.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
10 Q. Good morning, General.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. On behalf of the Defence of General Gvero, I will put a few
13 questions to you. Answering the Prosecutor's questions, you said that you
14 did not see any of the high-ranking officers in the Main Staff in those
16 A. Not the Main Staff, but the shelter.
17 Q. That leads me to conclude you did not see General Gvero there?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. Throughout the six days you were there?
20 A. I saw him in 1996, I think, in late May.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down, please, General and Mr. Krgovic. Since
22 you speak the same language, if you could kindly allow a short pause
23 between question and answer, to help the interpreters catch up with you.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Referring to the location where the various administrations of the
2 Main Staff were, you said that the one for morale headed by General Gvero
3 was in the hotel in Han Pijesak; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. During your stay in Baljkovica - and this follows from your
6 proofing notes with the Prosecutor - you said that the Main Staff was not
7 informed of what had happened in Baljkovica and Srebrenica at that point
8 in time, before you went out on the ground; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Krgovic.
11 Mr. Haynes.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
13 MR. HAYNES:
14 Q. Well, just, good morning, Mr. Bogdanovic. As you know, I ask
15 questions on behalf of Vinko Pandurevic -- Sladojevic, I'm sorry. Sorry
16 for getting your name wrong.
17 Can we just clarify the position so far as your visit to the
18 forward command post on the 17th of July is concerned. You originally
19 went to Han Pijesak with Colonel Trkluja; that's correct, isn't it?
20 A. From Han Pijesak to Zvornik.
21 Q. Yes. But when you received the order at the command of the Main
22 Staff, it was Colonel Trkluja who went to receive the order, wasn't it?
23 A. Correct, correct.
24 Q. And then he and you drove from Han Pijesak to Zvornik?
25 A. First to Vlasenica and then to Zvornik.
1 Q. And, during the course of that journey, did Colonel Trkluja tell
2 you what orders he had received?
3 A. Yes, orally. We talked in the Puh, and I concluded that we should
4 take measures in the Zvornik Brigade to find out why it had been so easy
5 for that column to get through.
6 Q. You very nearly answered my next question. Before you arrived in
7 Zvornik, did you understand that the commander of the Zvornik Brigade had
8 opened a corridor to allow the column to pass through, or was that
9 something you did not know at that time?
10 A. The information was not correct. We only assumed this.
11 Q. Was it your understanding that the commander of the Main Staff was
12 aware that a corridor had been opened on the morning of the 17th of July?
13 A. I'm not aware of that.
14 Q. I'd like you, therefore, please, to have a look at a document.
15 It's P1195. And I hope I've got this right. I think A is the English and
16 B is the Croatian -- the B/C/S.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm told that it is confidential document, an
18 intercept, so no broadcast, please. We haven't broadcast any part of it
19 as yet, have we? Okay.
20 MR. HAYNES: The document on the screen in B/C/S is not the
21 correct document. The one on the English channel is the correct document.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this correct now?
23 All right.
24 MR. HAYNES:
25 Q. I wonder if you would just take the time to read that through to
1 yourself, Mr. Sladojevic, and see how much of that corresponds with your
2 understanding of what you knew on the 17th of July. I'm going to help you
3 with what this is because I don't think you'll have seen anything like
4 this before.
5 This is a transcript of an intercepted radio communication said to
6 be between General Mladic and the Main Staff duty officer at 4.15 in the
7 afternoon of the 16th of July. Tell me when you've read it.
8 A. Yes, I've read it.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, was it your understanding that Vinko Pandurevic
10 had, on the 16th of July, arranged passage for the Muslims over the
11 territory of the Zvornik Brigade?
12 A. I didn't see this document in the Main Staff.
13 Q. No. But what I want to know is what you were told. Were you told
14 on the morning of the 17th, when you were given your orders at the command
15 of the Main Staff, that they knew that Pandurevic had arranged passage
16 over the territory of the Zvornik Brigade, or were you not told that?
17 A. I was not told that. Trkluja and I only assumed it. If this had
18 been on the 16th or the 17th in the morning, probably a much larger group
19 would have gone out on the ground. I think this information was only
20 being checked. That's my opinion. It was not certain at the time.
21 Q. Did you know that the source of the information was the President
22 of Republika Srpska himself?
23 A. I learned that only in 2004. Before that, I never knew it or
24 heard about it.
25 Q. Did you know on the 17th of July that Pandurevic had been out of
1 communication for a long period of time?
2 A. No, I didn't. I don't remember having that information at the
4 Q. Now, you talked to us earlier on about the possibility that you
5 would have to take measures. Did you understand on the 17th of July that
6 if you discovered Vinko Pandurevic had allowed a column to pass, that that
7 would have been in the terms of this intercept unauthorised or without
9 A. I understand the question. I think that the passage lasted
10 longer, as I was able to understand, from the 16th in the morning, until
11 the 17th in the morning. The first wave that came along, in fact, fared
12 worst, because Vinko at that time accepted combat. The Muslim artillery,
13 which was firing on unprotected columns, inflicted great losses on their
14 own forces.
15 Afterwards, when they captured those three self-propelled guns and
16 started inflicting losses on the Serbs also, I think that Vinko quickly
17 withdrew and let the column pass until the morning of the 17th. That's
18 what I discovered on the spot.
19 When Trkluja and I were on our way, we had one opinion as to what
20 measures should be taken against Vinko, the Chief of Staff; but when we
21 arrived there and found out what had happened, we changed our minds and we
22 then decided that no measures should be taken.
23 Q. And I think this is something you said in one of your interviews
24 that the measures that you were considering was the immediate removal of
25 Vinko Pandurevic from command, wasn't it?
1 A. Well, what you say when you're talking among yourselves, that's
2 one thing, but what you can actually do is quite another. It wasn't up to
3 us to replace him. All we could do was see what the situation was and
4 propose to the commander of the Main Staff what measures should be taken,
5 but it wasn't up to us to decide on the measures.
6 Q. Thank you. So, when you eventually met Vinko Pandurevic and
7 Dragan Obrenovic, they were in the position of trying to defend what they
8 had done by allowing the column of Muslims to pass. That's correct, isn't
10 A. Yes. Obrenovic was a bit frightened. He thought disciplinary
11 measures would be taken. Vinko was a true commander.
12 Q. And it was from Obrenovic that you got the figures of those who
13 were dead and wounded?
14 A. I heard that he repeated that. There were great problems in the
15 town of Zvornik because of the losses and the wounded. Obrenovic said
17 Q. But, importantly, it was he who gave you the figures that you
18 wrote down when you went for your first interview in 2000?
19 A. Yes. And we wrote it down on a notepad very carefully. And I
20 included that information when I was interviewed in 2000, and I noted that
21 down in pencil.
22 Q. It was your belief, or it is your belief, that the figures that
23 Obrenovic gave you were exaggerated?
24 A. At that time, yes.
25 Q. I'd like you, please, to have a look at another document. It's
2 MR. HAYNES: And I'd like the witness to see paragraph 3, please,
3 which I think is on the second page.
4 Q. Again, Mr. Sladojevic, just take a few moments to read that over
5 to yourself. Have you read it, Mr. Sladojevic?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. Having looked at that, would you agree that it seems very much
8 that Dragan Obrenovic did exaggerate any figures he gave to you?
9 A. Yes, but the date here is the 27th of March. How he gathered that
10 information, it should be determined precisely. Up there, the 24th and
11 25th Infantry Division of the 2nd Corps doesn't give a date when did they
12 sustain these losses, and then all these operations have these losses. So
13 it turns out that half of those were in Baljkovica alone. I don't believe
14 there were so many.
15 Q. Well, thank you very much anyway.
16 Can we move on, please. Prior to the 17th of July of 1995, you'd
17 never met Vinko Pandurevic; is that correct?
18 A. Only those four hours in Baljkovica; and then never again until
19 January, I didn't see him.
20 Q. In 1997, was the army of Republika Srpska reformed so that the
21 Main Staff became the General Staff?
22 A. Correct, yes. In January 1997.
23 Q. And did you take an office in the command of the newly formed
24 General Staff?
25 A. Yes, I did. I became chief of the operations staff sector.
1 Q. And Vinko Pandurevic also, did he hold an office in the newly
2 formed General Staff?
3 A. Yes, he did. At that time, there was an ordinance appointing him
4 assistant for morale.
5 Q. And as part of the reorganisation, was the command of the General
6 Staff moved to a different location from that where the command of the
7 Main Staff had been?
8 A. Correct. Part of the Main Staff who remained working, who did not
9 retire, were moved from Han Pijesak to Bijeljina, and they were appointed
10 according to the new establishment.
11 Q. And did this require the removal of records from Han Pijesak to
13 A. Yes. But let me add: The order on the reforming and moving of
14 the Main Staff was written by General Miletic, and I was appointed to
15 implement all this and I made the new establishment. I moved everything
16 that had to be moved to Bijeljina, and the new General Staff started
18 Q. What happened when you tried to remove the records from Han
19 Pijesak to Bijeljina?
20 A. Well, in early February, I was supposed to go to Han Pijesak with
21 three vehicles to take over the documentation. I remember it was snowing,
22 and Vinko Pandurevic, Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, went with me. We arrived
23 in Han Pijesak.
24 We found General Miletic there. He had prepared all those
25 documents to hand them over to us, but he said, first, go to see General
1 Mladic. Vinko went to see General Mladic. He returned ten or 15 minutes
2 later, and said, "Sladojevic, there is nothing doing."
3 We went back to the General Staff.
4 Q. Do you know what General Mladic said to Pandurevic when he asked
5 if the records could be taken away?
6 A. He didn't say anything about the records. He saw off Vinko
7 Pandurevic, and he said, "You have many wall nuts in your pockets." And
8 he showed him two walnuts in his hand.
9 Q. Help us as to what that means: "You have many walnuts in your
11 A. I don't know. The two of them know.
12 Q. What was Vinko Pandurevic's relationship like with General Mladic
13 after July of 1995?
14 A. In Serbian, we use an expression: "Podozrivo," mistrustful, not
15 at a very high level.
16 Q. Now, in --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. If I may interrupt you a little bit,
18 Mr. Haynes.
19 When you met -- when you arrived in Han Pijesak and you met with
20 General Miletic, and he told you that the documents were ready but you
21 first had to go and see General Mladic, did General Miletic indicate
22 whether it was the two of you that had to go to General Mladic or whether
23 it was one of you and --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Only Colonel Pandurevic went.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But why was it that Colonel Pandurevic went
1 and not you instead, or why didn't you go with him if the relationship --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was more important than I
3 was in the General Staff. There was no need for me to go also.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
5 Go ahead, Mr. Haynes.
6 MR. HAYNES:
7 Q. If you don't mind, I just want to see if I can jog your memory.
8 The phrase about walnuts, does that have something to do with somebody
9 doing something bad?
10 A. That's a very hard question to answer. If I were to say the
11 precise truth, it's 50/50. That means he didn't do what the other one
12 wanted. He sometimes did things on his own initiative, in his own way, to
13 be precise.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, in 1998, I think, you were at a military school
15 together with Vinko Pandurevic; is that correct?
16 A. Yes. In 1997 and 1998, for a year.
17 Q. And can you tell us a little bit about the course you were both
19 A. Well, it was normal teaching. Vinko was the best in the class.
20 But five or six days before the final exam, a criminal report arrived from
21 the army of Republika Srpska. I still don't know what this was about. A
22 day before the exam, he was banned from taking the exam, and so he did not
23 complete the school. And this criminal document was sent by the late
24 General Momir Talic.
25 I know that for a fact, because they had heard that he was the
1 best in the school; and according to certain systems, they did not find
2 him suitable, so that Vinko did not graduate with me.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: As vague as the walnut story. So...
4 MR. HAYNES: I'd just like quickly, if we can, to go back to P334.
5 Q. You will see, if you look at the beginning of paragraph 3, the
6 period for which the numbers of dead are described there, and it concerns
7 all operations in Srebrenica and Zepa against the 24th and the 25th
8 Division. So does that help you with the date period that we are talking
10 A. I can't see the date here. Is the date at the top of the
11 document? I don't see when this was recorded.
12 Q. It's not a date. It just describes events that those dead result
13 from, and it is the operations in Srebrenica and Zepa and the combats
14 against the 24th and 25th Divisions and the 2nd Corps. Do you know when
15 those combats took place?
16 JUDGE KWON: Can you show the date of this report to the witness?
17 MR. HAYNES: Yes. If he can look at the first page, he can see
18 that it is a combat report dated the 18th of July.
19 Q. So it was up to that date.
20 A. It's difficult now to determine whether this is in order, because
21 I don't know whether they entered the losses in the column or the losses
22 of the regular army. As far as I can see, the losses refer to the 24th
23 and the 25th Infantry Division. If the division had those losses, it's a
24 pretty poor division.
25 Q. Mr. Sladojevic, it's a combat report from the Zvornik Brigade
1 relating to its own losses. Do you understand that?
2 A. Oh, the Zvornik Brigade. No, there is something wrong here.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, if you could address the witness
4 straight to the third line of paragraph 3 and ask him to read it.
5 MR. HAYNES: Well, it's translated.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: But what I would like is for him to read it in
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under number 3?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, third line.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "In combat operations with the
11 Muslim forces in Srebrenica, Zepa and the remaining parts, and the forces
12 of the 24th and 25th Infantry Division of the 2nd Infantry Corps of the
13 so-called army of BH, the Zvornik Brigade suffered the following losses:
14 Killed, 27; seriously injured, 24; slightly injured ..." --
15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So these losses refer to the losses sustained by the
17 Zvornik Brigade; wouldn't you agree to that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I agree, but it doesn't give
19 the time. It's not precise. You have to ask questions precisely, you
20 know. That's important. It should be written here from the 15th of July
21 to, and so on. If this is the same day, then it refers to Baljkovica,
22 but I still don't believe it's the same day.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
24 Mr. Haynes --
25 MR. HAYNES:
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sladojevic, I'll take your advice on board in due
2 course, but I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Haynes.
4 Is there any re-examination, Mr. McCloskey?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one question.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to put it now or do you want to put it
7 after the break?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just, this should be very short, if I could do it
9 right now.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Though famous last words, but this really should
12 be short.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
14 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
15 Q. To see if this refreshes your recollection regarding what this
16 criminal problem that Vinko Pandurevic had, did you hear of a problem he
17 had related to some financial matter and an apartment he had in Zvornik?
18 Was that what this was about, as far as you can recall?
19 A. As far as I know, it was a surprise. We thought he would be top
20 of the class, but then two days later a criminal report arrived and nobody
21 ever said why. I can draw up as many criminal reports as you like in
22 Republika Srpska. It can have to do with an apartment, a car, whatever.
23 I think it was pointless. If it had not been pointless, it would not have
24 been dismissed by the court.
25 Whatever is dismissed by a court is was pointless and shouldn't
1 have been done. The purpose of that criminal report was to prevent him
2 from graduating and from coming to the Main Staff. I am sure of that, and
3 that is true. That is correct.
4 Q. So can you tell us today that this criminal report had nothing to
5 do with war crimes?
6 A. No, it did not. I have to be quite honest about that. No. Vinko
7 Pandurevic, in 1998, had no idea there were criminal proceedings against
8 him. He would certainly have come, just as everybody else did: Krstic,
9 Talic and everybody else. He have done the same. But the main problem
10 was that they wanted to prevent him from graduating and coming to the
11 territory of Republika Srpska where Talic and the others were.
12 Q. Thank you, General. No further questions.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have any further questions for you, General
16 Sladojevic, which means you're free to go. You will be assisted by our
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I wish to thank you on behalf of the Trial Chamber
20 for having come over to give testimony, and I also wish you a safe journey
21 back home.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. McCloskey, is the next witness here?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. I had estimated a little bit
1 longer, as you could see. We, also on the request of the Nikolic team,
2 not to put this on them, but we switched two witnesses and that cost us a
3 delay of about a day, but with the estimates --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then do you have any practical
5 suggestions as to how we could utilise the third session?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would like to get the issue of the Pandurevic
7 statement to Eileen Galleece sorted out, and I was hoping that we would
8 have had something accomplished on that. Perhaps I could speak to Mr.
9 Haynes at the break.
10 MR. HAYNES: I had made arrangements to talk to Mr. Vanderpuye
11 now. I said after this witness we would talk about it and we would
12 resolve it.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's do this. Let's have a break
14 now, and then we go through the documents, if there are documents that you
15 wish to tender in relation to this last witness, and see whether we can do
16 anything useful during the third session.
17 Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Documents, Mr. McCloskey?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I just had that one 17 July document, 65 ter 927.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Objections? None. Admitted.
23 Madam Fauveau, would you like to tender any documents?
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Any other Defence teams, I suppose not, from
1 following the cross-examination? Okay. So that concludes the testimony
2 of General Sladojevic.
3 Now, you have confirmed to us that the next witness,
4 Mr. Lazarevic, although he has arrived this morning, he's not ready to
5 testify today also because of the switching of witnesses and that you
6 agreed upon with some Defence team at the 11th hour. That is
7 understandable. But if there is a way in which we could utilise the time
8 we have left, we are here precisely for that.
9 Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's just a testament that to this is
11 being run very well, this case. We don't have anything to talk about,
12 unless, I think, Mr. Vanderpuye and Mr. Haynes were still discussing that
13 issue we spoke of earlier. But we couldn't come up with anything else.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And I see Mr. Haynes is blissfully silent about it.
16 MR. HAYNES: We've made an appointment to see one another later
17 today, and I'm confident we won't be troubling the Court with any argument
18 on that subject.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
20 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: You will recall the issue that Mr. Ostojic and I
22 were dealing with, with the United States and the aerial imagery. And I
23 think we are very close to solving that problem as well, but I will, of
24 course, need Mr. Ostojic here. And there is one more item that we had
25 promised them that will come in the next day or so, but we are very close
1 to resolving that. So we haven't forgotten about that issue.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And as far as the other witness scheduled for
3 this week, yes, Mr. Josse.
4 MR. JOSSE: Since we have got a moment. I liaised with Mr. Thayer
5 at the last break, and I appreciate that he's not in court at the moment.
6 He's provided me with a courtesy bundle of the memoranda documents. That
7 I'm going to look at overnight and report back to him. As far as the
8 sit-reps are concerned, that will take him a little bit longer. That's a
9 rather more time-consuming task. So jointly, in effect, I'm asking for a
10 bit more time for him to do that. I know he's working very hard in
11 relation to the Court's request.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We all are, Mr. Josse. Thank you, although
13 self-praise is no recommendation.
14 MR. JOSSE: It wasn't self praise, Your Honour. It was praise for
15 my learned friend who prosecutes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but Mr. McCloskey's was self-praise.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: That was meant for everyone, and it was probably a
18 little bit -- well, you know.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think we are satisfied a little bit
20 with the progress, although we are pretty sure that more could be done,
21 especially if you cut down further on your time to finish your case,
22 Mr. McCloskey.
23 So there being no other business to transact, I think we have to
24 adjourn. The sitting tomorrow is in the afternoon, as you all recall, at
25 2.15 in this courtroom.
1 Thank you.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.05 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of
4 August, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.