1 Thursday, 30 August 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everybody. And good afternoon to
6 you, Madam Registrar. If you could kindly call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am.
10 All the accused are here.
11 From the Defence teams I only notice the absence of Mr. Ostojic.
12 Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Thayer and Mr. Nicholls.
13 We have been informed that there are some preliminaries. Yes,
14 Mr. Thayer?
15 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President, good afternoon,
16 Your Honours. Good afternoon, everyone. A scheduling preliminary
17 regarding next week, Mr. President. We have received the Chamber's order
18 with respect to Witness -- the first witness who was on the list for
19 Monday. We have been advised by that witness's attorney that he will be
20 unavailable that day, and we are talking about Witness 119, to represent
21 his client as authorised by the Chamber's order.
22 The -- we have been in touch with the attorney. We are in a
23 position to postpone the testimony at the court's pleasure, until later in
24 the week. We had anticipated that for a number of potential reasons,
25 Witness 119's testimony was tenuous in terms of it actually happening that
1 day so we were already prepared to go ahead with the next two witnesses on
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I feel a little bit confused. Is it 119 or 118?
4 MR. THAYER: I believe 119.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. All right. Okay. Okay. All right.
6 Okay. 119. Because the same -- he would be number 118 to testify.
7 MR. THAYER: Okay.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I got confused.
9 MR. THAYER: So we are prepared to proceed with the witnesses who
10 are already scheduled to follow Witness 119. They will be arriving on
11 Sunday. They will be proofed Sunday. They will be ready to go. We
12 believe that we will be able to fill the day on Monday with those two
13 witnesses' testimony. Their testimony may be completed on Monday. It's
14 just as likely it will carry over to Tuesday. We always Witness number 4,
15 our investigator, available to fill any gaps on Tuesday on the issue of
16 the Drina Corps collection. In addition we are trying to see if Witness,
17 I believe his number is 101, who is currently scheduled to testify next
18 Friday, is available to come here earlier and to be ready to go Tuesday if
19 there is an enormous gap that has emerged for some reason. The bottom
20 line, Mr. President, is if the Court is so inclined we would like to
21 postpone Witness 119's testimony until Friday next and we will do
22 everything we can to fill any gaps that develop as a result of that
23 movement, as I've just outlined for everyone.
24 And again, it's the next two witnesses are PW-108, Witness number
25 166, and our 5th Engineering deputy commander, who we have given the
1 provisional witness number of 188.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: How long is the examination-in-chief of Witness 119
4 MR. THAYER: It's extremely difficult to estimate. We -- at this
5 time, we have been given an indication that he is unwilling to be proofed.
6 It could be anywhere from half an hour to two hours or two and a half
7 hours. It just depends on how it unfolds. So we are -- I don't think
8 it's going to be much longer than two hours, though, frankly, Your Honour.
9 I can't see that realistically happening but it's possible, depending on
10 his answers and his reluctance and so forth.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you have to say, any of the Defence teams?
12 Ms. Nikolic? There are two issues basically, the evidence, the testimony
13 of 119 and the evidence of the others that would be -- will be anticipated
14 according to Mr. Thayer.
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good
16 afternoon to you and to my learned friends. As far as Witness 119 is
17 concerned, this Defence has no objection. We are simply trying to meet
18 the witness's requests. As for the rest of the schedule, I hear for the
19 first time from my learned friend Mr. Thayer that the witness 108 could
20 appear as early as Monday. I wasn't able to inform him that during today
21 we received from the Commission for the Cooperation with The Hague
22 Tribunal from Belgrade, upon Serbian government approval, certain material
23 that could have to do with Witness 108. If there is a possibility, I'd
24 kindly ask that we stick with the previous schedule, that is that
25 Witness 108 be heard on Tuesday, so that I would be able to go through the
1 material. It is in B/C/S and there are only two of us in the office who
2 can deal with it. And then we would inform our esteemed colleagues as to
3 what it has to do with. As for the other witnesses, Mr. Nikolic's Defence
4 has no objection.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?
6 MR. JOSSE: Again, likewise, Your Honour, we weren't aware of what
7 my learned friend has just said. We would rather 101 remained in place
8 towards the end of next week. That's our only representation. So far as
9 119 is concerned, we are neutral and have observed what the Trial Chamber
10 has said in relation to the attorney.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
13 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just two quick notes. My friends have
14 been on notice or a little while that 108 would be available and scheduled
15 to testify on Monday. I've sent out e-mails preparing them for that
16 eventuality in case 119 went early. The problem we face, however, is we
17 can -- I don't think there is a problem putting our 5th Engineering
18 Battalion deputy commander in front of PW-108. The problem is I
19 anticipate his testimony to be relatively brief so that would create a gap
20 on Monday that I'm not sure we're not going to be in a position to fill.
21 So although we are certainly willing to accommodate our friends in that
22 regard and put 108 after the other witness, we would have a gap emerging
23 on Monday if we were to delay 108 until Tuesday.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think there are two things you need to address,
25 both of you, both sides, and one is the emerging situation that calls for
1 some practical solution, and the other is that if any of the Defence teams
2 has a genuine problem, that also has to be addressed, and a solution found
3 which -- be found that satisfies both of you. As at the moment, as at
4 present, I think 108, do you have an estimate of the length of the
5 duration of your examination-in-chief?
6 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I think we are looking at about an hour
7 on direct, and if I may add, one fall-back position we have frequently
8 taken is put his direct testimony on on Monday, see how far we get and it
9 will reduce the gap.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: You read my mind because this is precisely what I
11 was trying to lead you to. Perhaps we could on Monday we could have the
12 examination-in-chief only of this witness, and then proceed with the
13 testimony of the other person, the second in line, if you ensure that that
14 other person is also available, and then on Tuesday, depending on whether
15 Ms. Nikolic would be ready or not, we could have either the
16 cross-examination of 108 or the cross-examination of the other witness to
17 be followed by the cross-examination of 108 which would be either late on
18 Tuesday or on Wednesday. I mean those are my suggestions, if they are
19 acceptable to both of you. Ms. Nikolic?
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think it is
21 acceptable and that we will inform as soon as possible the Chamber and the
22 other side what it is that we need to be able to accept it on behalf of
23 Nikolic's Defence. Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So you'll try and work it out,
25 Mr. Thayer. You'll try and work it out this way. There is another thing
1 I need to discuss with my colleagues on this rescheduling.
2 Incidentally, Judge Stole is still unwell and we are sitting
3 pursuant to Rule 15. Thank you.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So you work together along those lines and then if
6 there are problems, Ms. Nikolic, we will do our best to ensure that
7 everyone is -- everyone is given the appropriate opportunity to present
8 his or her case.
9 So is there any other preliminary you would wish to raise? Yes,
10 Ms. Nikolic?
11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I announced this matter
12 to my learned friends from the Prosecution as well. Yesterday's witness,
13 in his testimony, particularly in its latter portion, went beyond the
14 scope of the summaries we received as to the matter he was going to
15 testify about according to 65 ter. Defence did not object and did not
16 react until now because we thought it came from the witness himself
17 without any prior intervention on the part of the Prosecutor. Today we
18 are ready to go ahead with the cross-examination. We intend to conclude
19 it. However, there was something that we wanted to inform the Bench
20 about. In case that during cross-examination, there are some other new
21 facts, like yesterday, we would kindly request that this witness be called
22 back for additional cross-examination on such matters that may be new to
23 this Defence.
24 There was another matter as well. I believe that our colleagues
25 from the Prosecution were also somewhat surprised by the development, and
1 we as well as they, I believe, would not wish that this become a regular
2 practice. This is why we did not object to the new facts which occurred
3 beyond the scope of the -- of Rule 65 ter. Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. Mr. Thayer?
5 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Indeed, this information
6 was 100 per cent new to, I think, all of us here. It did catch us very
7 much by surprise, with respect to the reburial operation testimony. I
8 think to be fair to our friends, if they can make an appropriate showing
9 that his presence would be required for additional examination based on
10 new information that emerges and we are ready for any new information that
11 emerges from any other witness, then they should be given that opportunity
12 upon the proper showing.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We've heard what you had to say and taking that into
14 consideration, we'll provide accordingly, if the need for the return of
15 Mr. Lazarevic arises in due course. Okay. And that applies to both of
16 you actually. I mean both Prosecution and Defence.
17 Anything else?
18 In the meantime, can I have a revised estimate of the
19 cross-examination, please?
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic?
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. We will not
23 cross-examine this witness, thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek?
25 MR. MEEK: Perhaps 15 minutes, Your Honour, depending.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic?
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I expect to need less than 30
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. We
6 will not examine this witness.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau?
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this
10 MR. JOSSE: We will stick to our estimate, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Which was?
12 MR. JOSSE: Nothing.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes?
14 MR. HAYNES: I would have said about 20 minutes but having had a
15 discussion with Ms. Nikolic, I anticipate she will cover a great deal of
16 the ground that I have in mind.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
18 So good afternoon to you, Mr. Lazarevic. Welcome back.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, thank you.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You're still testifying under oath and I want to --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- remind you of the caution that I gave you at the
23 beginning of yesterday's sitting, namely in relation to any questions that
24 may be put to you which could potentially expose you to criminal
25 proceedings. So Mr. Meek?
1 WITNESS: DAMJAN LAZAREVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Can you tell me, please, who, if anyone, you spoke to about your
7 testimony before you came to The Hague to testify?
8 A. No one.
9 Q. And since 1995, July of 1995, have you spoken with
10 Dragan Obrenovic?
11 A. No, I have not.
12 Q. Now, yesterday at the end of your testimony, you indicated to the
13 Prosecutor, on page 70 of yesterday's transcript, when he asked you
14 question: And when do you recall first telling any investigator or
15 anybody about this reburial operation and the people that were involved in
16 it, and your role in it? Do you recall your answer, sir?
17 A. You mean in Banja Luka?
18 Q. Well, no. Yesterday in this courtroom, Mr. Thayer asked you when
19 was the first time you told any investigator or anybody about this
20 so-called reburial operation. Do you recall that question from yesterday,
22 A. Yes, I do. But no one before asked me about it or came to me to
23 talk about it.
24 Q. That's correct. You answered under oath here, "I did not. Nobody
25 ever asked me as to what, when, why. Nobody ever asked me about that. If
1 they had asked me, I would have told them." Do you recall that answer,
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. MEEK: Could we get on e-court, please, 3D189, page 72 in
5 B/C/S, page 114 in English. That's a 65 ter number.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer?
7 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if my friends have a list of exhibits to
8 use on cross-examination we would appreciate receiving that. If there is
9 no list or if there are no documents to be used that's fine. But if there
10 are, we would appreciate a list.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?
12 MR. MEEK: Well, this was -- this was placed in, in my
13 understanding, under 65 ter number 3D189 by the Nikolic team. It's the
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, I don't think that's the spirit in which
16 Mr. Thayer raised -- made his point. I think his point is it doesn't --
17 mind you, you using any document -- but you should give him prior notice
18 of what documents you're going to use upon cross-examination. This is
19 what he basically said. You haven't given him notice of any documents
20 that you will be using in your cross-examination.
21 MR. MEEK: It's not a document. I can certainly try to go through
22 this without showing the witness anything.
23 Q. Sir, you met with investigator Dean Manning, did you not, in
24 November of 2002?
25 A. In Banja Luka.
1 Q. Okay. And at the very end of that interview, sir, Dean Manning,
2 the investigator for the OTP, asked you specifically:
3 "Q: In September and October of 1995, a number of these graves,
4 including Branjevo, Kozluk and Orahovac, were opened up and the bodies
5 removed, buried in secondary graves elsewhere. What do you know about
6 that process?"
7 Do you recall him asking you that, sir?
8 A. Well, yes.
9 Q. Okay. And do you recall your answer to Mr. Manning?
10 A. I didn't answer anything. I didn't answer that question.
11 Q. Well, if I tell you that your answer to that specific question
13 "I don't know anything about this and I did not take any part in
14 that, apart from having heard stories about that in the company while I
15 was still in my military duty. I heard that something of that sort, that
16 the bodies were transferred, that the graves were moved, was going on, but
17 I did not take any part in that."
18 That was your first answer. Does that refresh your recollection,
20 A. Well, probably yes, now. Otherwise -- I mean earlier I couldn't
21 remember that I answered anything to that question.
22 Q. After that, Mr. Manning asked you: "Q. Who did they say had
23 taken part in that?"
24 Sir, do you remember that question?
25 A. I don't.
1 Q. Well, your answer to that specific question was:
2 "No. Nobody ever gave me a definitive answer as to who was
3 involved and who had done this. I myself was not a part of that and I
4 have no knowledge of who was moving the graves and doing this sort of
5 thing. During that period, I was in charge of performing other tasks. I
6 was putting up some bridges on other locations with a group of people who
7 were assigned to work with me on that."
8 Do you remember telling Mr. Manning that, Mr. Lazarevic?
9 A. Well, it's possible that I said it, but I can't remember that I
10 said anything or explained anything, and I can't recall giving those
12 Q. If you had given that answer, that would have been a lie, wouldn't
13 it, sir?
14 A. Well, it would, probably, but I can't remember giving answers to
15 those questions.
16 Q. Do you recall when Mr. Manning asked you whether the Zvornik
17 Brigade engineers were involved in the reburial of these people, of these
19 A. When he asked me? When who asked me?
20 Q. He asked -- sir, Dean Manning, the investigator that you talked to
21 in Banja Luka, you had one interview with that investigator, correct?
22 A. I don't know. It's possible that I said something, but I can't
23 remember those questions from Banja Luka. I can't remember any questions
24 about the reburial.
25 Q. Sir, after Mr. Manning asked you what --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are having a French lesson. Go ahead, Mr. Meek.
2 MR. MEEK: Does my learned friend have any objection to me
3 allowing the witness to see the last few pages in B/C/S and having it in
4 front of him?
5 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I don't have any objection to that at
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Meek would like to thank you and he may
9 MR. MEEK:
10 Q. Now, very briefly, sir, are you stating that you don't know
11 whether you had an interview with Mr. Manning in Banja Luka?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already confirmed that he had.
13 MR. MEEK: Okay.
14 Q. At the top of page 72 there, you see where it starts, Mr. Manning
15 asked you the question in September and October? Do you see that,
16 Mr. Lazarevic?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Okay. All right. Following on down from that, probably towards
19 the middle or the end of that page, you were asked about the Zvornik
20 Brigade engineers being involved and your answer was, "I don't know
21 whether anybody was there from our lot. I don't know." Do you recall
22 that, sir?
23 A. As far as reburial is concerned, I don't know. But since it's in
24 the document, I must have said it but I have no recollection of saying it.
25 Q. Well, sir, if you'll just look back at the very top of that page,
1 Mr. Manning asked you a question which encompassed the opening up and the
2 bodies being removed, did he not?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek -- yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. It's written there.
5 MR. MEEK:
6 Q. Thank you. Immediately after that, Mr. Planning was curious about
7 what you had heard, if anything, about it, and you answered, "I was never
8 in the -- in the circle of people where this subject, this issue, was
9 discussed, either in the streets or in the unit or anywhere else." Do you
10 recall giving that answer, sir?
11 A. Probably, regarding the reburial, I must have heard from people
12 and I probably gave that answer, but I can't recall now that we discussed
13 it. Yes, it's true that he asked me questions but I don't remember
15 Q. Has looking at that transcript refreshed your recollection that
16 those questions were asked and that you did give those answers, sir?
17 A. Well, I probably did give those answers, but right now, just from
18 this paper, I can't remember the statements I gave. But since it's all in
19 the documents, it's probably right that I said it.
20 Q. And what you said wasn't true, was it, sir?
21 A. Well, it was true when he asked me that question, but I don't
22 remember what I answered to those questions, but it's here in the
23 document. It's written there.
24 Q. And since you have been in The Hague, you've had three sessions
25 with the Prosecutor for proofing, have you not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you listen to an audio copy of this interview or read it
3 in your own language, sir?
4 A. The interpreter read it to me up there.
5 Q. And you confirmed that everything that you had said in this
6 interview with Dean Manning in Banja Luka was true and correct, did you
8 A. Yes. It's here in the document.
9 Q. Sir, do you recall also when Dean Manning during the interview
10 with you in Banja Luka told you, "No matter who listens to your responses,
11 they will not believe you"?
12 A. I don't know that he said that.
13 MR. MEEK: I don't have any further questions, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Meek. Ms. Nikolic?
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. I am Jelena Nikolic, representing Drago Nikolic. I'd like to ask
20 you some questions about the events in July 1995. You testified yesterday
21 that you had a few days off in the month of July 1995, the last one being
22 the 14th, and you used those days off to see your son off into the army;
23 is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. It is a custom that is time-consuming, it's a tradition in our
1 lands, people usually get a couple of days off for that family event?
2 A. Well, yes. That's the custom.
3 Q. Other soldiers also were granted days off for such occasions?
4 A. It all depended on how easy it was at the specific time. Somebody
5 would get two or three days off or a week even. Others couldn't get any.
6 Q. I'm just waiting for the interpretation to catch up. Thank you.
7 In July, when you were present at the three locations you
8 testified about yesterday from the 15th to the 17th of July, at Orahovac,
9 Kozluk, Branjevo, did you see, meet with or contact Drago Nikolic?
10 A. No, never. Not during the time of the burial. I never met him or
11 heard from him.
12 Q. But you know Drago Nikolic?
13 A. Yes. I know him from the brigade.
14 Q. I'd like to ask you about the approximate time when the reburial
15 happened because according to the material and documentation we received
16 from the Office of the Prosecutor, one could say it could have been around
17 mid-September 1995. Does that sound to you like the right time?
18 A. You mean the exhumation and burial?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I don't remember the month but it was not long after the first
21 burial. I don't remember the dates. I don't know.
22 Q. Thank you. From your evidence yesterday, I concluded that the
23 lorries as well as the machinery that was engaged in the reburial, let's
24 say in autumn 1995, did not belong to the Zvornik Brigade. Your equipment
25 in the brigade was rather old and in poor state of repair.
1 A. Not the machines themselves, just the lorries that transported
2 those machines, BGH-700 and 500.
3 Q. When you say not really, you mean to say that they did not belong
4 to the Zvornik Brigade?
5 A. Not according to the establishment. They were requisitioned from
6 other companies, enterprises, whereas the lorries that transported the
7 machines, they belonged to enterprises that also provided the drivers.
8 They were civilians. They were not uniformed personnel.
9 Q. Yesterday, when you were giving evidence, I'd like to ask, can you
10 confirm with certainty that Major Trbic was the person who coordinated the
11 whole operation of reburial in autumn 1995? Was he also the officer who
12 was responsible for all the activities related to exhumation?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you concluded that Captain Trbic was then your superior, as
15 far as the operation was concerned, because you addressed him for anything
16 you needed?
17 A. Yes. He also contacted me up there to see what was done and how
18 it was going on.
19 Q. And in relation to all those activities, exhumation and
20 coordination of meetings, you did not see Drago Nikolic for a single
21 moment, for as long as it lasted?
22 A. No, not even when I occasionally went back to the base at the
23 brigade. I just didn't run into him.
24 Q. Do you know that the Zvornik Brigade occasionally sent some of
25 their troops as assistants to other areas that were covered by other
1 corps, not the Drina Corps?
2 A. What do you mean?
3 Q. Individual soldiers or units or even especially formed units were
4 sent outside the area of activities of the brigade or the corps to help
5 out elsewhere.
6 A. It's possible. I don't know. Some -- somebody may have been away
7 on assignment, on orders.
8 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you if I understood this correctly. I
9 understood that only three members of your company were involved in the
10 operation of exhumation in autumn 1995.
11 A. You mean from our unit? Two machine operators and the driver who
12 transported the machines on the lorry. He would bring the machines and
13 then go away.
14 Q. And you personally were aware only of those three locations?
15 A. Three locations, nothing else.
16 Q. And at that time, you did not know where the bodies would be
18 A. No.
19 Q. And you were not shown a map or an order indicating locations from
20 which bodies were to be taken away and other locations to which they were
21 supposed to be taken?
22 A. I knew the locations where they were buried the first time, but
23 where they were taken to be reburied, I didn't know, and I don't know to
25 Q. When you say, "I know," you mean those three locations you
1 testified about yesterday?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. But you didn't see a map or an order indicating that bodies would
4 be reburied elsewhere?
5 A. I didn't see a map and nobody told me.
6 Q. Not necessarily a map. A document.
7 A. No, I didn't see anything.
8 Q. From all this, one is prone to conclude that details of the
9 operation were known only to a small number of persons who were directly
11 A. Well, it's probable that other army personnel also knew about it,
12 but there were only a few of us, a group of soldiers, who were designated
13 to do it.
14 Q. If I understood you correctly, the process of exhumation was
15 mostly by night.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When it was already dark.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And if I understood you correctly, it didn't take long.
20 A. No, not really. Five, six days maybe, six days max.
21 Q. From the material disclosed to us by the Office of the Prosecutor,
22 one could conclude that it lasted for three consecutive nights. Would you
23 say that was right?
24 A. No, no. I think it took longer.
25 Q. But you're not sure?
1 A. Well, I'm sure it wasn't three nights because at Branjevo, it's a
2 long way, and it took longer. I believe we stayed down there for two
4 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that in a way, this was a
5 secret operation, judging by the way how it was carried out and how long
6 it took?
7 A. Well, the few of us who were involved were certainly aware of it,
8 but a broader circle of soldiers and civilians could also have been aware.
9 Q. But you don't know many details really about what was going on and
11 A. Probably.
12 Q. Just a correction to the interpretation of my question. My
13 question was: In reality, very few persons were really aware of the
14 details. I believe the witness understood me properly but it was not
15 properly recorded.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic, did you hear what Ms. Nikolic said?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So what is your version of -- what was your answer?
19 Her question was in reality it was suggested to you that in reality very
20 few persons were really aware of the details. Would you agree to that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish me to amplify it further, Ms. Nikolic,
23 or are you satisfied with that?
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour. I would
25 like to thank you Mr. Lazarevic. I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Nikolic.
2 Mr. Haynes?
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. So that you understand, I'm going to ask you a few questions on
7 behalf of Vinko Pandurevic, who, in 1995, was the commander of the Zvornik
8 Brigade. I dare say you remember that, don't you?
9 A. I know the commander, of course.
10 Q. And I want to ask you first of all a few questions about vehicle
11 work logs, and I dare say you saw a lot of those in 1995, didn't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, can we agree that each vehicle work log covers a period of a
14 month, starting with the first day of the month and ending with the last
15 day of the month?
16 A. Yes. That's the way logs are issued, for a month.
17 Q. And the log is in two parts. The first part records the fact that
18 a vehicle has been provided with fuel, and the second part records the use
19 of the vehicle. Do you agree with that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The first part is signed by the fuel pump attendant at the time
22 that the vehicle is fueled; do you agree with that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the second part, as we'll see in a minute, could be filled in
25 by virtually anybody, sometime before the end of the month; do you agree
1 with that?
2 A. Every day it must be recorded where the vehicle went, the route.
3 It must be signed by the commander, maybe some sort of officer. Somebody
4 has to sign for the use of the vehicle for that day, so that the use of
5 the -- the consumption of fuel can be justified.
6 Q. Thank you very much. You've saved me a few questions there. It
7 follows, therefore, doesn't it, that a vehicle work log is only opened or
8 created when a vehicle is given fuel?
9 A. A log is issued every first of the month, and it is filled in date
10 by date, as the vehicle was used, so that the operator or the driver would
11 have justification for his consumption of fuel.
12 Q. Well, I'm going to try and illustrate the point I'm making you by
13 slowing again a document that Mr. Thayer showed you yesterday.
14 MR. HAYNES: I wonder if we could put into e-court please, P302.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
16 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if it helps the witness and my friend
17 I have the original. We had some legibility issues. I can have it handed
18 to the witness for his convenience.
19 MR. HAYNES: That's very kind indeed, thank you.
20 Q. Now, you saw this document yesterday, Mr. Lazarevic, so you're
21 familiar with it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you'll just confirm, won't you, that this is not a vehicle
24 that belonged to the Zvornik Brigade?
25 A. It did not.
1 Q. And --
2 A. Only if needed, that is.
3 Q. And you'll confirm also, will you, that Kovacevic, Veljko, was not
4 a member of the Zvornik Brigade?
5 A. He did not even work at the Glinica Factory with that piece of
6 machinery but once it is requisitioned, he was supposed to operate it.
7 Q. Well, I don't think you've answered my question. He wasn't a
8 member of the Zvornik Brigade, was he?
9 A. Yes, but only after the machine had been requisitioned. Then he
10 would be made part of the company or the brigade. He was employed
11 elsewhere and occasionally he would come with his machinery to assist.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, the point I was trying to make earlier is that
13 document would have been created on the 15th of July when this vehicle,
14 which belonged to another company, arrived to take fuel, wouldn't it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Can we go over the page, please? Over the page there
17 are two entries relating to the use of this vehicle, on the 15th and the
18 17th of July. Do you agree with that?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. And both of those entries have been written and signed by the same
21 person, haven't they?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And does it appear to you they have been written in the same pen?
24 A. Well, I don't know if it's the same pen, but the signature is.
25 Q. And looking at the signature, whatever it does say, it certainly
1 doesn't say Kovacevic, Veljko, does it?
2 A. It doesn't.
3 Q. Do you recognise that signature?
4 A. I don't think I do.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. I don't know if it belongs to someone from our brigade.
7 Q. Well, thank you very much. Again, I want you to look at another
8 document you saw yesterday. Can we have a look, please, at P301? And
9 this one of course is the one that's in e-court backwards so can we have a
10 look at the fueling page which would be the second page on this document?
11 Thank you.
12 I'm sorry, I didn't look, but has the witness got the original of
13 this document? Thank you very much.
14 MR. THAYER: He does, Mr. President.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 MR. HAYNES:
17 Q. Again, Mr. Lazarevic, not a vehicle that belonged to the Zvornik
18 Brigade, do you agree with that?
19 A. It does not.
20 Q. But it drew fuel on a few days during the month of July?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And a Rovokopac Torpedo is a small tractor-like vehicle similar to
23 the one which you described as being of no use at Kozluk. Do you agree
24 with that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, can we go to the page that deals with the use of the vehicle,
2 which is the first page in e-court? And you simply have to turn the
3 document over, Mr. Lazarevic.
4 Again, all the entries and all the signatures in the same
5 handwriting; do you agree with that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And we can see from those entries, as you established in some
8 detail with Mr. Thayer yesterday, that this vehicle is said to have been
9 at Orahovac on the 14th of July; do you agree with that, according to this
11 A. It was not at Orahovac on the 14th.
12 Q. I appreciate you say that, but the document says it was, doesn't
14 A. Yes. I can see it in the document, but at Orahovac on the 14th,
15 there was a larger machine. It was a BGH-500 that I saw there, not this
16 one. I don't know who inserted this data.
17 Q. And in fact, would you go further as to say such a vehicle would
18 have been no use at Orahovac, from what you saw of the work required
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, forgive me, you've used the date the 14th, but as I
22 understand your evidence, you were at Orahovac on the 15th of July,
23 weren't you?
24 A. I was there on the 14th -- on the 15th, but on the 14th the
25 machine had been sent to Orahovac, and on the 15th, I found it there; not
1 this machine, though.
2 MR. HAYNES: Well, can we now go to P297? And we'll need in
3 e-court page 134 in the B/C/S, page 14 in the English, and if Mr. Thayer
4 would be so kind to provide the witness with the original, he will need to
5 look at page 125.
6 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, I hope you're reading the daily orders book for the
7 Engineering Company for the date of the 14th of July of 1995. Am I
8 correct in assuming that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And would you confirm that on the 14th of July, there were no
11 orders from the Zvornik Brigade for vehicles to go to Orahovac?
12 A. There is no mention or, rather, the order doesn't say which
13 machine was up there.
14 Q. Well, no, it says more than that. There are no orders for
15 vehicles to go to Orahovac at all on the 14th of July, are there?
16 A. On the 14th, I was at home. I wasn't at the unit that day.
17 Q. Well, I don't want to get into unnecessary difficulty with you,
18 Mr. Lazarevic. I'm simply asking you to confirm what the orders say for
19 that day, whether you were at home or not. You've been asked to look at a
20 lot of these orders and read them and state what they say. I'm asking you
21 simply to agree that on the 14th of July, there were no orders from the
22 Zvornik Brigade Engineering Company for vehicles to go to Orahovac.
23 A. I can't find any such a thing in this text. I don't see any
24 vehicles being mentioned going up there. It is only mentioned that the
25 officer on duty at the company on the 14th of July will be
1 Vojislav Sekonjic, who was the company officer.
2 Q. Can we conclude that if there were any vehicles at Orahovac on the
3 14th of July, they were sent there by somebody others than the
4 Zvornik Brigade?
5 A. There was a vehicle -- there were vehicles on the 14th. That has
6 been proven. There was a machine from our brigade that had been sent up
7 there, and I found it there on the 15th.
8 Q. Just a few more questions on this. In summary, therefore, a
9 vehicle work log is merely an indicator that a vehicle has been given fuel
10 by the Zvornik Brigade, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It's not an indication that that vehicle has been mobilised by the
13 Zvornik Brigade or is under the control or direction of the
14 Zvornik Brigade?
15 A. If that particular vehicle had a work order opened for, then it
16 had been mobilised by the Zvornik Brigade for the time necessary.
17 Q. Well, that's what I thought you just disagreed with. I thought
18 you just agreed with the idea that all a vehicle work log is is an
19 indication that a vehicle has received fuel and nothing more.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
21 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, the question was very clear. The answer
22 was very clear. And I think we are getting argumentative with this
23 witness if betake it further. He's asked the question and received the
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes?
1 MR. HAYNES: Lines 8 to 11, page 27.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We are unanimously of the opinion that what the
4 witness previously stated might call for some clarification, so go ahead,
5 Mr. Haynes. And witness, Mr. Lazarevic, if you wish Mr. Haynes to put the
6 question again to you, we'll do that. Otherwise, if you remember it you
7 may proceed to answer it.
8 MR. HAYNES:
9 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, do you know what arrangements there were between
10 the Zvornik Brigade and, for example, the civil protection authorities
11 concerning the provision of fuel to vehicles?
12 A. I'm not familiar with that. It was not up to me to take care of
13 that. The brigade cooperated with them, whenever it found it necessary.
14 I don't know what sort of a mechanism was in place. I wasn't interested.
15 Q. Well, I don't -- again, if you don't know the answer to this, then
16 say so, but I'll ask you the question. Do you know whether there was any
17 accounting procedure between the civil protection authorities and the
18 brigade concerning the provision of fuel to vehicles?
19 A. I wouldn't know, between the brigade and the civil protection
20 authorities, well, we always fueled our tanks at the gas station. As for
21 the rest ...
22 Q. But there was cooperation between the brigade and the civil
23 protection authorities concerning the provision of fuel; is that correct?
24 A. I suppose so.
25 Q. And you stand by your original answer, do you, that a vehicle work
1 log is merely an indication that a vehicle has been provided with fuel by
2 the Zvornik Brigade?
3 A. Well, yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes?
5 MR. THAYER: Asked and answered, Your Honour, but the witness has
6 already answered the question.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
8 MR. HAYNES:
9 Q. Now, the civil protection authorities were responsible for
10 sanitation and hygiene; that's correct, isn't it?
11 A. I guess so. We know what civil protection is for.
12 Q. And in wartime that included the burying of dead bodies,
13 unfortunately, didn't it?
14 A. Well, yes.
15 Q. And we are of course aware that in July of 1995, the weather was
16 very hot and the bodies you saw were decomposing very quickly, weren't
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And doubtless, even you'd agree that they presented a health risk
20 to the general public?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At Orahovac, it was your impression that the burial work was being
23 conducted by members of the civil protection authorities; that's correct,
24 isn't it?
25 A. Yes. They were there working on it, with the assistance of the
1 machine -- machines.
2 Q. And your function was merely to be on hand in case of mechanical
3 problems, as I understand your evidence; is that right?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And although you left before the job was finished, your
6 information was that the job was finished. In other words, that every
7 body was buried?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And according to what you know, there is no possibility of a
10 number of dead bodies being visible in the field at Orahovac, say, two or
11 three days later?
12 A. There may have been, but I didn't go there to check, after they
13 finished. After they had finished that, I didn't go up there any more.
14 It is possible that they didn't perform their task all too well, that they
15 didn't cover all of it.
16 Q. When you went to Kozluk, did you take with you any sort of radio
17 or communication device?
18 A. No, nothing. I never had such a thing in my possession,
19 throughout the operations.
20 Q. What about the soldiers you saw there with the painted faces? Did
21 any of them appear to have radio communications devices?
22 A. No. I didn't even approach them. They were a bit further away.
23 I don't know what they were doing up there. I just saw them standing
24 there in the field.
25 Q. But whoever it was who arranged for a bigger machine to arrive at
1 Kozluk, it had nothing to do with you?
2 A. No. First a small machine arrived with Milos Mitrovic. It wasn't
3 able to do much. And then later a larger machine followed. I suppose
4 that up there at the unit, they realised that he wasn't able to do
5 anything with the small machine and then they sent a larger one, a ULT
7 Q. Thank you. Whilst we are on the subject of ULT 220s, during the
8 course of the burials that you witnessed, you saw two ULT 220s, didn't
10 A. The other one came occasionally, the aluminum oxide factory was
11 relatively nearby and it came when necessary. However, there was only one
12 ULT there most of the time, not two.
13 Q. I didn't mean that you saw them at the same time, but you saw a
14 second ULT, which belonged to a quarry in Branjevo; that's correct, isn't
16 A. Branjevo, yes, that machine belonged to the quarry. As for the
17 aluminum oxide factory, which came occasionally, well, I don't know where
18 it was the rest of the time.
19 Q. The ULT that belonged to the quarry was driven by a man called
20 Boskovic, Rade, wasn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And, again, he was not a member of the Zvornik Brigade, was he?
23 A. Occasionally, when the machine was there, he was there with it so
24 he must have been a member at such times.
25 Q. Now, can we come to the reburials operation? When you said
1 yesterday it was carried out by the same persons, do you mean that the
2 drivers were again Kovacevic, Veljko, and Boskovic, Rade?
3 A. No, not Veljko, just Rade Boskovic, and Cvijetin Ristanovic as
4 well as Miladinovic, I think his first name is Milovan.
5 Q. And again --
6 A. Rade Boskovic did not take any part in the reburial or the
7 transfer. That machine was not present, as far as I know.
8 Q. And again, the organisation, which seemed to you to be principally
9 responsible for the reburial, was the civil protection authority; is that
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
12 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I've withheld objections on some very
13 similar questions that I believe misstate the prior testimony of this
14 witness on this very point. I think he was very clear in his answers as
15 to who he considered responsible based on his experience.
16 MR. HAYNES: I've never seen it as a function of cross-examination
17 to accept everything a witness says according to the interpretation of the
18 Prosecutor and stay faithful to that. I'm entitled to put suggestions to
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but also juxtaposed to what he's stated in his
21 evidence, which I shouldn't repeat in his presence, but which you are
22 aware of. In relation to the reburials he was very specific as to who was
23 giving orders and to whom they were reporting, and I think if you wish to
24 clarify that with the witness, you need to remind him of that first.
25 MR. HAYNES: I will come on to that, yes. I have no difficulty
1 with that, but I'm really dealing with the physical mechanics of it.
2 That's the question I'm putting to him, who did it seem to him was
3 responsible for manning and operating and organising the machines and I'm
4 suggesting that he said it was the same people, the civil protection
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
7 MR. THAYER: Again, Mr. President, I think the prior testimony is
8 clear as to who this witness previously testified was involved in this
9 reburial operation based on his experience and his recollection.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic, apart from what you have already told
11 us, who did it seem to you was responsible for providing the human and
12 mechanical and organisational resources, particularly in relation to the
13 machines? Was it the civil protection authority or was it someone else?
14 Are you happy with the way I phrased it, Mr. Haynes or not?
15 MR. HAYNES: Absolutely.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The civil protection authority could
17 only ask the companies to lend them machines. As for the army, they can
18 requisition machines.
19 MR. HAYNES: Well, I don't think it's any clearer but I'm going to
20 leave it there.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: You may have overheard because I had my microphone
22 on. I said I wouldn't dare intervene again.
23 MR. HAYNES: No.
24 Q. I want to see if I can help you with the date on which these
25 operations took place.
1 MR. HAYNES: And I wonder if we could have in e-court please P2103
2 at page 240.
3 Q. Can you see that, Mr. Lazarevic?
4 Now, let me explain these photographs to you. We accept, all of
5 us in this case, that these photographs are evidence of the fact that the
6 reburials at Orahovac took place sometime between the first photograph on
7 the 7th of September and the second photograph on the 27th of September.
8 And Orahovac was one of the places you went to, wasn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Seeing those photographs, and as it were, the dates between which
11 the state of the earth was altered, do you now accept that when you played
12 whatever part it was you played in the reburial operation, it was sometime
13 in the middle of September?
14 A. Well, I was designated by my command. I was to be the one from
15 the Engineering Company to be there with the men who were doing it, in the
16 same way I was present at the first burial, when I was designated to be
17 there, and that's how they appointed me the second time as well.
18 Major Jokic, Slavko Bogicevic and the others.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, how much further?
20 MR. HAYNES: Well, I'm so close to finishing, I'd crave your
21 indulgence and, well, not so much yours but those who need a break.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it okay? We may be here a few more minutes and
23 then we'll have the usual break.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much. Yes, go ahead, Mr. Haynes.
1 MR. HAYNES:
2 Q. Were you also aware in September of 1995, that there was heavy
3 fighting going on in the Krajina region?
4 A. In Krajina, yes.
5 Q. And were you aware that members of the Zvornik Brigade took part
6 in that fighting? Perhaps even members of your own unit?
7 A. I was sent there too at that time.
8 Q. Thank you. And were you aware that the commander of the Zvornik
9 Brigade, Vinko Pandurevic, commanded a unit in Krajina for a period in
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And were you aware that he was away from the command of the
13 Zvornik Brigade until about the 27th of September of 1995?
14 A. I believe that they stayed behind after we left. I don't know the
15 date when they returned to the command. But I know the commander was
16 there, around, at the time.
17 Q. You mean in the Krajina?
18 A. In Krajina.
19 Q. Now, you know also, don't you, that in the absence of
20 Commander Pandurevic, his deputy was Dragan Obrenovic?
21 A. Well, he as Chief of Staff had that responsibility, among others,
22 to stand in for the commander when he was away.
23 Q. And amongst his other responsibilities was direct responsibility
24 for the Engineering Company, wasn't it?
25 A. Well, probably. Yes, probably.
1 Q. Well, you told us a lot yesterday about the chain of command in
2 the Engineering Company, but Dragan Jokic answered to Dragan Obrenovic,
3 didn't he?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. I have no further
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. We'll have a 25-minute break
8 starting from now. Then -- do you have a re-examination?
9 MR. THAYER: If I do, Mr. President, it will be brief.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. 25 minutes.
11 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer, do you have a re-examination?
14 MR. THAYER: I do, briefly, Mr. President.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:
16 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. I just have a few questions for you this afternoon. Can you
19 recall in any more detail the type of truck that was used to transport the
20 bodies away from these reburial sites where you were present?
21 A. Those were Shtier [phoen] trucks. They were owned by a hauling
22 company, Karakaj.
23 Q. And can you just describe what these trucks look like, what their
24 general design is, how do they function?
25 A. A large heavy-duty truck, for instance kippers [phoen], tri-axles,
2 Q. You mean three axles, sir?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And on the back of these trucks, is there a bed or some kind of
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. And do these trucks tip in the back?
8 A. You know, the chassis, there are two sides to it. When it tips,
9 the one side opens automatically when you unload.
10 Q. Okay. And do you recall the capacity of these trucks, in terms of
11 the payload in the back in cubic metres or however you would measure the
12 capacity that these loads or that these trucks can carry in the back?
13 A. I think its carrying capacity was 12 cubic metres, as designated,
14 but when you really need to fill it, you can even put 16, but normal
15 capacity is 12 cubic metres.
16 Q. Now, you testified a little while ago in answer to --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. That's how it would have come out of
18 the factory. What's more important is whether it had -- any alterations
19 had been done to the truck to extend its cubic metre capacity.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes what? Was it left in the same condition as it
22 was when it came out of the factory? That is, with a capacity of 12 cubic
23 metres? Or was that capacity increased?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In practice, and that's the case
25 with all those hauling companies, they would increase the height of the
1 chassis to increase the possible payload. So the sides were built on by
2 the enterprise so they were increased by 20, 30 centimetres.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I asked the question because that is what is
4 normally done in my country, too, so I anticipated that.
5 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned in answer to a question from my friend
7 Ms. Nikolic that you recall that it took two nights to complete the
8 exhumations of Branjevo.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recall the order in which these burial sites that you've
11 told us about were exhumed? Do you remember which came first, second and
12 then last?
13 A. First one was Orahovac. The second was Kozluk, the gravel site.
14 And the third one was the farm in Branjevo.
15 Q. And when the bodies were finally exhumed and then transported away
16 from Branjevo after that second night, where did the BGH and the ULT go?
17 A. The first night, when we were still working, it stayed at the
18 farm. And then we came back the second night to finish. They were not
19 driven back. They stayed there on the road.
20 Q. And then on the second night, when the exhumations were completed
21 at Branjevo, where did the BGH and the ULT go?
22 A. They were taken back to base.
23 Q. And by "base," do you mean your Engineering Company command at the
24 youth settlement?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And when you just stated that on the first night, these vehicles
2 stayed there on the road, which road are you talking about?
3 A. Close to the site, where the barns are.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Not far from the barns.
6 MR. THAYER: May we have 65 ter number 1801 on e-court, please?
7 And with Madam Usher's assistance, I would like to hand a hard copy,
8 because I think it will be a little easier for the witness to look at up
9 close. It doesn't need to be placed on the ELMO.
10 Q. Now, sir, you told us yesterday that you do not read English.
11 Sir, it is the Prosecution's contention that this aerial photograph
12 depicts an area to the left where new exhumation or excavation has
13 occurred, that area being in the general area you indicated yesterday that
14 the initial burials occurred. And it is further the Prosecution's
15 contention that a backhoe and an excavator or a backhoe/excavator and a
16 front loader are present as well in this photograph, near to the pigsties
17 or stable area. This imagery has been represented by the US government to
18 have been taken on or about the 27th of September 1995.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment before you answer, Mr. Lazarevic.
20 Yes, Ms. Nikolic?
21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe my learned
22 friend is completely beyond the scope of cross-examination, as far as
23 Branjevo is concerned, and the questions I asked in relation to that. I
24 believe this is a repetition of the examination-in-chief.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't heard the question as yet. What he's
1 been asked for the time being is almost nothing. So yes, Mr. Meek? I'll
2 of course will take a decision on your submission is correct or not once
3 we've heard the question. Yes, Mr. Meek?
4 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour. I would join in Ms. Nikolic's
5 objection and also point out that this is a leading and suggestive
6 question. We don't need to hear the end of it to know that it is. It's
7 redirect and he doesn't have the right to ask leading, suggestive
8 questions like this.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes?
10 MR. HAYNES: I'd support that. Any question that contains the
11 phrase, "It is further the Prosecution's contention," is opinionated and
12 leading and is not permissible either in direct examination or
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 MR. THAYER: May I respond, Mr. President, briefly?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
17 MR. THAYER: First, Mr. President, I'm not posing this question,
18 which has yet to come in response to a question from my friend
19 Ms. Nikolic. I am responding to a series of questions from Mr. Haynes in
20 which he asked this witness some specific questions regarding certain
21 dates of activity. It is for that purpose that I'm going to ask this
22 witness the question I intend to ask him.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Would you please come to your question,
1 Mr. Thayer?
2 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President.
3 Q. Sir, we have been advised by the US government that this
4 photograph was taken on 27 September 1995. Does that help your memory at
5 all as to whether your participation in these exhumations occurred in the
6 beginning of September, the middle of September, or the end of September?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: At this stage, before he answers, I need to confirm
8 with my colleagues that the question can be answered. Thank you.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Lazarevic, if you could answer that
11 question, please.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is again the location at
13 Branjevo, at the grave that I marked several times on the screen. This
14 second square here in the second part is probably where the machinery was.
15 If I understood your question correctly.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: His question, I don't think you did understand
17 Mr. Thayer's question. You either repeat your question, Mr. Thayer, or I
18 do it, one of the two. I think you should repeat the question.
19 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Your Honour.
20 Q. Sir, you just identified both the area in which you have
21 previously identified the burials taking place. First of all, can you
22 confirm that that area is the area in which the exhumations also took
23 place? And I'd ask to you look at your screen because perhaps it will be
24 a good time to make some markings, with Madam Usher's assistance. Can you
25 mark the area in which the exhumations occurred?
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And you testified just a few moments ago that the machines were
3 parked on a road near the stables. Can you just place an X in the area
4 you recall those machines being parked, sir, during the course of the
6 A. Here, at the junction of this road that goes towards Lokanj. I
7 think that's the section, as far as I remember [Marks].
8 Q. And if you could just turn that into an X, please, sir?
9 A. [Marks] Should I --
10 Q. I think that will do. Now, again, my question is: We have been
11 told by the US government this photograph was taken on 27th of September
12 1995. Having made the markings you just made and based on your
13 recollection, does this image help you recall whether these exhumations
14 took place in the beginning of the month, the middle of the month, or at
15 the end of the month?
16 A. I couldn't tell you the exact date. I can't.
17 Q. Okay, sir. Thank you. Thank you. I have no further questions.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 MR. THAYER:
20 Q. You need to sign in the lower right-hand corner and today's date,
21 which is the 30th.
22 A. Is it the 30th?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: The 30th, yes.
24 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic, that brings to an end your testimony.
1 On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over
2 and last but not least I wish you a safe journey back home on behalf of
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Now we can proceed with the documents.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. We have distributed the
8 tender list. I trust everybody has a copy. We just have one additional
9 exhibit, that being the one just -- or two additional exhibits, that being
10 the unmarked version of this aerial photograph, 1801, and the second is
11 the same exhibit as marked by the witness, that is PIC 00144.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections? They are so admitted. Any of the
13 Defence teams, I don't think so -- yes, Mr. Meek?
14 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour, I would like to admit only a portion
15 of the interview this witness gave Dean Manning, and again it's been
16 listed in e-court as 3D189. In the English version, only page 114, the
17 ERN number would be L0085810 through 81 or 512. I'm sorry, 812, three
18 pages. And there is only one page in the B/C/S, Your Honour, that
19 corresponds, and that would be page 72 or the ERN numbers T0004501.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Meek. Mr. Thayer?
21 MR. THAYER: No objection, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection from any of the other Defence teams?
23 None. So admitted. Any --
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 MR. MEEK: I think, Your Honour, on the page I'm looking at, the
1 B/C/S, I just looked at the transcript, it looks to me like it is 45011.
2 Which I don't know why there is five digits on the end of that but -- it's
3 page 72 of 72 of the B/C/S, one page.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what to tell you but I also find it
5 strange that it has five digits after the first three zeros. I don't
6 know. Perhaps you can check it together with Mr. Thayer and with the
7 registrar and then if it's not the correct entry, we can change it in due
8 course. All right? Okay. That settles Mr. Lazarevic.
9 Next witness?
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Just before the
11 witness is brought in, I think that an advising the witness of his rights
12 under Rule 90(E) is appropriate. I've explained the rule to him and that
13 that he may be given that caution.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no protective measures in place?
17 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Ivanovic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to
21 start giving evidence. The first thing we have to do before you proceed
22 is for you to make the solemn declaration that is required under our
23 rules, that you will be testifying the truth and the whole truth.
24 Madam Usher is going to hand you the text. Please read it out aloud and
25 that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: DRAGOJE IVANOVIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic. Please make yourself
6 comfortable. Take a seat.
7 Again, before we proceed, please listen carefully to what I'm
8 going to tell you now. In the course of your testimony, since you are one
9 of the persons that lived through the events that the Prosecution is
10 alleging to have happened in July of 1995, and you were a soldier on
11 active duty at the time, there may be questions put to you that, if you
12 answer truthfully, could possibly expose you to criminal proceedings. I'm
13 not saying that such questions will be asked but they may be asked. I
14 don't know what your story is. In case such questions are put to you, you
15 have a right to ask the Trial Chamber to exempt you from answering such
16 questions. We will hear you. We will hear what you have to say. And
17 then we can decide either to grant you such an exemption or to compel you
18 to answer the questions notwithstanding that they could potentially expose
19 you to criminal proceedings.
20 If we do compel you to answer such questions, you have a further
21 right under our rules, namely that unless what you state here in answering
22 those questions is false testimony, then whatever you state will not and
23 cannot be used against you in any further or future proceedings that could
24 be taken against you. So you are covered on that as well.
25 Have you understood what I have just explained to you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Nicholls will go first. I don't
3 think we'll finish with you today, but we will try. We will try. If you
4 keep your answers concise and to the point, we probably will.
5 Mr. Nicholls.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
8 Q. Good afternoon.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. As the Judge said, Witness, if you can -- as His Honour advised
11 you if you can please try to keep your answers short and to the point
12 we'll try to finish your testimony today.
13 First of all, could you state your full name?
14 A. My name is Dragoje Ivanovic, born on the 8th of October, 1967, in
16 Q. Thank you. And you are by ethnicity you would identify yourself
17 as a Bosnian Serb; is that right?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. I'm going to go through a little bit quite quickly of your
20 military background. You were mobilised in 1992?
21 A. Yes, in 1992.
22 Q. Sometime around the beginning of 1993, you became a member of the
23 Zvornik Brigade military police; is that right?
24 A. Yes, in early 1993.
25 Q. You stayed in the Zvornik Brigade military police until around
1 Dayton; is that right?
2 A. Yes, until the end.
3 Q. During that time, you were stationed at the barracks at Karakaj?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was your rank? What was your -- in July 1995, what was your
7 A. I was a private.
8 Q. And your primary duties during the time that you worked as a
9 Zvornik Brigade military policeman was working at border crossings; is
10 that right?
11 A. I was with the traffic unit of the military police.
12 Q. All right. Now, who was the commander of the military -- Zvornik
13 Brigade military police in July 1995?
14 A. It was Miomir Jasikovac. I think his rank was that of a
16 Q. Also in July 1995, did you know a person named Drago Nikolic?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And what was his position in July 1995?
19 A. He was the security officer of the Zvornik Brigade.
20 Q. Now, before July 1995, did you ever work directly with
21 Drago Nikolic?
22 A. Yes. And for a short while, I was his driver as well.
23 Q. And when was that, that you worked as his driver?
24 A. Sometime in 1993, but I'm not certain.
25 Q. Okay. Coming back now to July 1995, I want to ask you some
1 questions about the events that -- the important events that you're here
2 to testify about. Do you recall the approximate date of the fall or
3 liberation of Srebrenica?
4 A. No, I don't remember the date.
5 Q. After the fall or liberation of Srebrenica, were you ever ordered
6 to guard prisoners?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. All right. I have some questions for you about that. Where did
9 you first guard prisoners around this time, July 1995?
10 A. In the school in Orahovac.
11 Q. What I'd like you to do is please tell the Trial Chamber how you
12 came to go to Orahovac, to the school, to guard prisoners. Tell us how
13 you were given that duty.
14 A. The company clerk told me to go to Orahovac. All other orders
15 came from Jasikovac, the commander.
16 Q. Okay. Can you tell me the name of this company clerk?
17 A. Stevo Kostic.
18 Q. And what time of day was this?
19 A. When I went to Orahovac.
20 Q. When you were told first that you were going to be going to
22 A. Around 6.00 p.m., perhaps.
23 Q. And were you told why you had to go to the school in Orahovac,
24 what your job was going to be when you got there?
25 A. Kostic couldn't explain to me what it was that needed to be done.
1 Q. All right. How did you go to the school in Orahovac? How did you
2 get there?
3 A. We went on board the military police minibus.
4 Q. And who went with you? Who is the "we"?
5 A. With me, there were several colleagues of mine, five or six. I'm
6 not sure.
7 Q. From the military police?
8 A. Yes, from the military police.
9 Q. Do you remember the names of any of your colleagues who were on
10 the minibus with you?
11 A. Goran Bogdanovic, Cedo Jovic, Stanoje Bircakovic, Miomir Simic,
12 and that's all I know.
13 Q. Well, described what happens when you arrive at the school? Who
14 was there, if anybody, when you arrived?
15 A. There was no one in the school.
16 Q. What happened after you arrived? Tell us what happened after you
17 got there on the minibus.
18 A. After a short while, perhaps 20 minutes later, Commander Jasikovac
20 Q. And did he come by himself or with anybody else?
21 A. Alone.
22 Q. And what did he speak to you when he arrived? And by "to you," I
23 mean the MPs who were there.
24 A. He did. He summoned the entire group. He told us to check the
25 hall and that many people were supposed to arrive. He said he supposed
1 they were from Srebrenica although he wasn't certain.
2 Q. Okay. And what did he tell you -- what did he say was going to
3 happen when these people arrived? What was going to happen next?
4 A. He said that they were supposed to enter the hall and that we were
5 there to guarantee their safety.
6 Q. And what did that involve, guaranteeing their safety? What would
7 you have to do there once these people from Srebrenica arrived?
8 A. We were supposed to provide security for them. He said that the
9 next morning they were supposed to leave for Tuzla most likely.
10 Q. All right. Then did anybody else arrive that night? Tell us what
11 happened next.
12 A. Perhaps 20 minutes later, around 9.00 p.m., buses began arriving
13 with civilians.
14 Q. I don't necessarily expect you to remember the exact number but
15 about how many buses?
16 A. Perhaps seven or eight, maybe nine, but I'm uncertain.
17 Q. Were there any soldiers, VRS soldiers, on these buses?
18 A. As far as I could see, yes.
19 Q. And as far as you remember, think carefully, was there any escort
20 for these buses as they arrived? Were they accompanied by any vehicles?
21 A. Yes. There were several UN vehicles and one or two military
23 Q. Okay. What kind of UN vehicle or vehicles did you see?
24 A. White APCs with the letters UN.
25 Q. And what kind of military vehicles?
1 A. Mercedes jeeps. We called them Puh. And they were military
2 police jeeps.
3 Q. Okay. Who was in -- who or what kind of personnel were in those
4 military police jeeps, the Puhs?
5 A. In one of them, there was a rather senior officer, as far as I
6 could tell. He had a high rank.
7 Q. And did you recognise -- I think I can tell from your answer but
8 did you recognise this officer or know his name?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did any -- did this officer speak to anybody when he was at the
11 school, this high-ranking officer or senior officer?
12 A. Yes. He spoke to our commander, Jasikovac.
13 Q. Do you know what they were talking about?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were there any -- besides the civilians you say getting off -- who
16 were on the buses and the soldiers who were there, and the MPs, was there
17 anybody else around the school, any local Serb civilians?
18 A. Yes. There were civilians, most probably locals. I didn't know
20 Q. What were they doing?
21 A. Some were shouting. Others were cursing. We were ordered by
22 Commander Jasikovac to remove all civilians from the scene.
23 Q. And what kind of curses or shouting were these people who you
24 thought were local civilians saying? Just describe what they were saying.
25 A. Well, ugly curses. They were addressing the civilians
1 disembarking the buses, the curses varied.
2 Q. I know it might not be the kind of thing you want to say right now
3 in court but please tell us what they were saying, what you remember, what
4 the locals were yelling at people coming off the buses.
5 A. They were cursing their mothers or Naser's mother, since Naser
6 hails from Srebrenica. Things like that.
7 Q. You said that the civilians were disembarking from the buses. Can
8 you describe what happened, where they went after all these people got off
9 the buses?
10 A. Leaving the buses, or upon leaving the buses, Jasikovac addressed
11 them. He told them that they were to enter the hall, that this was the
12 place where they would be safe. And one by one, they entered the hall.
13 Q. Other than the commander, Jasikovac, did you see any other Zvornik
14 Brigade officers that night that you're describing where the prisoners
15 came into the school?
16 A. No, not once.
17 Q. Briefly describe, if you can, what you did that night, what your
18 duty was, how you provided security for the prisoners.
19 A. Since there was no door in the gym, the group of us, out of the
20 five, six or seven of us, had to stay at the door or, rather, two would be
21 there at any given time, and then they would be replaced. We were
22 supposed to stand guard there since that was the only way into the gym.
23 Q. Now, did you sleep at all that night, you personally?
24 A. Not much.
25 Q. And very briefly, describe the treatment of the prisoners that
1 night, how they were treated, as far as you could tell.
2 A. I think they were treated fairly. They asked for water to drink.
3 They went with us to get water. And then they would bring that water back
4 to the gym.
5 Q. Remember any incidents that night at all, anything happening?
6 A. No. There were no incidents during the night.
7 Q. Okay. Now, I want to ask you some questions about the next
8 morning. What happened the next morning, early in the morning? Did you
9 stay on duty all the next day or what happened?
10 A. In the morning, around 8.00, the brigade chief, Nikolic, came, and
11 shortly afterwards, some 20 to 30 soldiers arrived as well. He told
12 Jasikovac that we were free to go, but that we should be ready and close
13 by with the minibus. He told that the soldiers that arrived with him were
14 to take over the civilians.
15 Q. And just to be very clear, it says in the transcript that brigade
16 chief Nikolic came. Chief of what? Who is the person who came, this
17 Nikolic? Can you give his full name?
18 A. Security chief, Drago Nikolic.
19 Q. And what was his demeanour like, his behaviour, his sort of manner
20 of speaking, when he was addressing Jasikovac and saying that you and the
21 other MPs were free to go but should be ready and close by with the
23 A. How should I explain this? Well, he didn't seem to be in a very
24 good mood. That was the impression I had.
25 Q. Now, you also said he told that the soldiers that arrived with him
1 were to take over the civilians. Just to be very clear, what civilians?
2 Who were the people he was going to take over?
3 A. The civilians that were in the gym. We were supposed to leave the
4 location and they were there to stay.
5 Q. Now, just to be clear, you said that you were free but should be
6 ready and close by with the minibus. You'd been up all night. Was there
7 any conversation about whether you and the other MPs could return or go
8 back to the headquarters?
9 A. Some of my mates suggested that we should go back. However,
10 Jasikovac, the commander, ordered that we are supposed to stay and as
11 soldiers we had to obey that.
12 Q. And why did you have to stay around there? Why weren't you
13 allowed to leave?
14 A. I don't know. Maybe they supposed that unforeseen things may
15 occur. I don't really know.
16 Q. And -- well, let me continue. Maybe I'll come back to that. What
17 happened next, after you were told by Drago Nikolic that you were free but
18 had to stick around close by with the minibus?
19 A. We withdrew with the minibus perhaps 150 to 200 metres below the
20 gym. There was a food shop there. We took some refreshments, some went
21 to have coffee in the nearby houses in Orahovac.
22 Q. Okay. Now, during this day at the school, tell me -- describe all
23 of the different VRS officers you remember being present at -- during the
24 day at the school at different times.
25 A. I only saw officers in the morning, Jasikovac and Drago Nikolic.
1 And then after that, we withdrew further away from the school.
2 Q. Do you remember whether there were any high-ranking officers, VRS
3 officers, at the school that day?
4 A. Yes. That morning, as far as I could see, the same officer was
5 there as the one that had been there the previous night, when the buses
6 had arrived.
7 Q. Can you describe the appearance of this officer as best you can?
8 How tall he was, in your own words, how old he was, what type of uniform
9 he wore, that kind of thing. Just describe as best you can remember him
10 and try to be careful.
11 A. I don't know how to describe him exactly. As far as officers go,
12 us plain soldiers usually tried to steer clear of them because one needed
13 to stand still and salute. He had a regular camouflage uniform. He may
14 have been around 50. That's it, more or less.
15 Q. Was he short, tall, average height, do you remember?
16 A. I don't know what tall means to you. To me, he was of average
18 Q. Okay. Let me just see if I can help you remember reading back one
19 part of the way you described this officer in your statement. You said,
20 "He was tall, maybe up to 50 years of age." What did you mean then when
21 you said he was tall? That's, for my friends, on page 17 at about line 4
22 in the English.
23 A. Yes. I said he was around 50, as I did today. His height may
24 have been 175, 180 centimetres, perhaps.
25 Q. Now, did that officer --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment. Mr. Bourgon?
2 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. My colleague just quoted
3 how this officer was described as being tall and he referred to page 17.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what we have in the transcript.
5 MR. BOURGON: At about line 4 in the English version. Now, I
6 don't find this on page 17 and maybe my colleague was referring to the
7 interview. And that's what I would like to avoid that he would not quote
8 from the interview but, indeed, I believe that the witness did say that
9 this officer was tall but that's not the right reference. So I would just
10 like to make sure that my colleague will, if he does quote the witness, he
11 will quote him from his testimony and not from his interview, and the
12 reason I rise at this time is that a bit earlier, my colleague has been
13 leading the witness, and of course I've had access to the interview so I
14 did not object, you know, to facilitate the testimony of the witness, but
15 I would appreciate if my colleague would refrain from leading the witness
16 in terms of the questions he's going to ask him about the events on that
17 day. Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Point taken on the second
19 issue raised by Mr. Bourgon. As regards the reference --
20 MR. NICHOLLS: The reference, Your Honour, what I said was the way
21 you described this officer in your statement, that's at line 21, at page
22 55, and I used statement and interview interchangeably. I meant the
23 interview and I was attempting to refresh his recollection because he'd
24 described him a certain way there.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
1 MR. BOURGON: If my colleague wants to use the interview there is
2 a way to do that. He has to establish the right basis before he goes to
3 the interview, and ask the witness whether the witness remembers saying
4 anything about the size of that senior officer, and whether he did say
5 anything in the interview. And then if he establishes sufficient basis he
6 can go to the interview. But not immediately go and quote page 17 of the
7 interview. In this case, I think he did say that the officer was tall
8 earlier so I did not -- I don't want to object to this issue because it's
9 not an important issue. It's just for the future, what will happen in the
10 next description during the day. Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment on what Mr. Bourgon said or--
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Not really, Your Honour. I'll move on. I'm not
15 sure just as a matter of procedure that I need to ask the witness if he
16 remembers saying this in the interview. I was just trying to move quickly
17 on the point.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is Mr. Bourgon has objected to you
19 proceeding with leading questions. So that's -- you have to put that in
20 that context.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: I understand that, Your Honour. Thank you.
22 Q. Now, the officer we are talking about, about 50 years old, who was
23 there, did you see him speaking to anybody that morning at the Orahovac
25 A. With Drago Nikolic and with Jasikovac.
1 Q. And were you able to see what Drago Nikolic and this officer were
2 talking about -- or hear, I should say. Could you hear what they were
3 talking about?
4 A. Whether I saw it or whether I heard it? The interpretation I
5 received was whether I saw them talking.
6 Q. Could you hear what Drago Nikolic was saying when he was talking
7 to this officer that we've been talking about?
8 A. No, I did not.
9 Q. Now, what happened later on in the day with the -- you called them
10 civilians who were kept in the school. Did they stay in that school? Did
11 they leave that school? Tell us what happened with them.
12 A. After that, military trucks, around five of them, passed by
13 towards the gym, and after that, and you could see that, you could see the
14 road, the civilians were taken towards the separation line.
15 Q. And did those trucks return to the school?
16 A. Trucks came back. Whether they were the same ones or different
17 ones, I couldn't tell because all the military trucks looked the same
18 except one that was orange.
19 Q. And very briefly describe the process of how the prisoners were
20 put on the trucks.
21 A. From my vantage point, I could not see that.
22 Q. What did you hear after the prisoners started being picked up and
23 taken away on these trucks? What could you hear?
24 A. I do not know. I don't know what could be heard, what there was
25 to hear.
1 Q. Well, did you hear anything loud?
2 A. Like what? I don't know.
3 Q. That day, at any time, did you hear gunfire?
4 A. Not only on that day. On the previous days and the days that
5 followed, there was a lot of gunfire. The separation line was not far
6 away, the line between the Serb army and the Muslim army.
7 Q. Okay. Just to be clear, was the separation line where you were
8 hearing a lot of gunfire from? Is that what you're trying to say? Is
9 that the direction?
10 A. Not a lot of gunfire. There was gunfire in all of those days,
11 from the separation lines, from left, from right, in our -- amongst us
12 Serbs you fire a gun when your child is born just as you fire a gun in
14 Q. Okay. You keep talking about not just on that day, on lots of
15 days. I'm asking you now about the day at the Orahovac school when the
16 prisoners were taken away on the trucks. Did you hear a lot of gunfire on
17 that day?
18 A. I don't know whether it was a lot, but there was gunfire.
19 Q. How long did you stay in Orahovac at the school, around the
20 school, that day?
21 A. Until 4.00 or 5.00 p.m. perhaps.
22 Q. Then where did you go, what did you do?
23 A. The same group that came to be the security detail came back by
24 bus, went back by bus to the barracks at Standard.
25 Q. Now, did you ever hear what happened to those prisoners who had
1 been held at the school that day in Orahovac?
2 A. After a short while, Commander Jasikovac came back to the barracks
3 at Standard as well, and in response to somebody's question, he said that
4 some were exchanged and some were liquidated.
5 Q. And now, just to be very clear, you say, "After a short while."
6 Is that the same day that you were at the school, when you get back to the
7 barracks, you hear from Jasikovac that some of these people were
8 liquidated? What do you mean by "a short while"?
9 A. Ten, 15 minutes after we came back to the barracks, if we came
10 back at 4.00 or 5.00 p.m., then he came back at around 5.15, let's say.
11 Q. And then what did you do that night? Where did you spend the
12 night after you got back to the barracks?
13 A. I left the barracks to spend the night with my family. I simply
14 ran away from the barracks because we were required to spend the nights
15 there as well.
16 Q. All right. Sorry, let me go back a minute now. When
17 Drago Nikolic arrived at the school that morning, after you'd been there
18 all night, at the school in Orahovac, did he come alone or did he come
19 with a driver?
20 A. I believe the driver brought him. I believe the driver was with
21 him but I'm not sure.
22 Q. What's the driver's name?
23 A. Bircakovic, Milorad.
24 Q. During the day at Orahovac, did you see this car that
25 Drago Nikolic came in around the school at all?
1 A. Yes. That car went to -- towards Zvornik and back.
2 Q. Did it only go towards Zvornik and back or did it also go in any
3 other direction?
4 A. It went back towards the separation line.
5 Q. And that's -- is that -- that's the opposite direction from
6 Zvornik, correct, as you're leaving the school?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you tell who was driving the car or who was in the car as it
9 was making these movements back and forth?
10 A. I didn't see who was in the car, and I didn't see the driver. I
11 could just see the car.
12 Q. Okay. And just to be clear, what kind of car was this that
13 Drago Nikolic came in? Do you remember the brand, the model, the colour,
14 if you could describe it?
15 A. It was an Opel station wagon, I believe, a military olive
16 green-grey colour.
17 Q. Now, at any time when you were there, did you go up in the
18 direction of the trucks when they were transporting prisoners? Did you go
19 there? Think.
20 A. Didn't even cross my mind.
21 Q. Does that mean that you didn't go? What do you mean by that
23 A. Right. I did not go.
24 Q. Okay. Let me now move on to the next day. I want you to talk
25 about the next day after you'd gotten back from the Orahovac school, you
1 spent the night. What happens the next day? What's your duty the
2 following morning?
3 A. The next day, after the flag was hoisted and the reading of the
4 orders, I got an assignment to go to Karakaj bridge and I was given safe
5 passage by the UNPROFOR who guarded the bridge.
6 Q. How long did you stay at the bridge?
7 A. Perhaps until 11.00, 12.00.
8 Q. Okay. And then, please, just tell us what happened next.
9 A. Commander Jasikovac came by with that same group of soldiers, four
10 or five of them, picked me up and said I had to accompany them and that my
11 colleague had to stay alone on the bridge, and they went to Rocevici.
12 Q. Okay. Now, just to be very clear, when you say, "The same group
13 of soldiers," who are you referring to as "The same group"? We have to be
14 very precise with our transcript. That's why I'm asking you that
15 question. Who are you referring to when you say, "The same group"? I
16 don't need their names but just who do you mean?
17 A. A group of military police that went to Orahovac. Not all of
18 them. For instance, the legal people didn't go there, whereas they did go
19 to Orahovac.
20 Q. And then how -- what happens when you get to Rocevic with the same
22 A. We arrived to the school building in Orahovac, to the training
23 ground. Jasikovac ordered the van to be moved away from the training
24 ground and he went into the school building.
25 Q. Okay. Now, our transcript says, "We arrived at the school
1 building in Orahovac." I'm talking about Rocevic now, which is where you
2 had said that this group was going to go. Can you just be clear for us?
3 The second day, was it Orahovac again or was it Rocevic you went to?
4 A. It was a slip of the tongue. It was Rocevici.
5 Q. Okay. And then, please continue. Did anybody else go in -- well,
6 did anybody go with Commander Jasikovac into the school building in
8 A. No one. He went alone into the school building.
9 Q. And what happened next?
10 A. He stayed inside not more than 20 minutes, came out, had a drink
11 of juice and said that we were going back to Standard.
12 Q. And who did -- what did he say -- well, did you learn what the
13 school was being used for that day, what was going on with the school in
15 A. At that time, I did not know that.
16 Q. What did you find out?
17 A. I found out perhaps that night or the next day. I'm not sure.
18 Q. Okay. And what did you find out?
19 A. From the soldiers. They were saying that there were civilians
20 from Srebrenica in the Rocevic schoolhouse.
21 Q. Okay. Now, are you sure -- just asking to you remember carefully,
22 think about your answer -- are you sure about when you learned that there
23 were civilians being kept, civilians from Srebrenica, being kept in the
24 Rocevic school? Think carefully about that day. It's a long time ago.
25 A. As far as I remember, I found out that night that there were
1 people from Srebrenica there. I knew that there were civilians inside the
2 school house but I didn't know which civilians from where.
3 Q. And let me just ask, it's not hugely -- but do you remember
4 talking about this in your interview, your interview with the OTP that was
5 tape-recorded? Remember we talked about this?
6 A. I believe we did.
7 Q. Okay. Do you remember saying in your interview that you heard
8 from Jasikovac on the way back from Rocevic that civilians from Srebrenica
9 were being held in the school?
10 A. Maybe I said that, but that is a difference of 15, 20 minutes, the
11 trip. I don't see why it's important.
12 Q. Okay. Well, whether you see why; is that correct, that you heard
13 it on the way back or within about 15, 20 minutes, or was it later?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. Did you see any other Zvornik Brigade officers at the school at
16 Rocevic when you were there?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you see any other VRS troops there around the school, besides
19 the MPs who came with you in the minibus?
20 A. Yes. There were soldiers around the school.
21 Q. And do you remember whether -- seeing any corpses around the
22 school, any dead bodies, when you were there? Think carefully.
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. And I think you've answered this but about how long was the total
25 time you spent at the school when Mr. Jasikovac was inside?
1 A. Between 40 and 60 minutes.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I think the break is in about ten
3 minutes. I wonder if we could take it now? I think I'm just about out of
4 questions and I would just like to take a look and see if I have any more.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Can I have a rough revised
6 estimate of your cross-examination, particularly the Nikolic team
8 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President, based on the
9 examination-in-chief, I will probably be much shorter than expected and I
10 think we can finish today but I would appreciate maybe we can give my
11 colleague a couple of minutes to look at his notes and see if he has
12 anything so we can finish before the break and then accelerate the
13 cross-examination after. I think -- I don't know what exactly he needs to
14 look at, whether he has more questions, but I think we could maybe finish
15 this and then I'll do my cross-examination much shorter after the break.
16 Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Can do you that,
18 Mr. Nicholls?
19 MR. NICHOLLS: He can start right now if that's what he would like
20 to do. That's fine.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. It means basically that he's finished with
22 his examination-in-chief. Yes, would you like to start now, Mr. Bourgon?
23 MR. BOURGON: I prefer to take a break because I want to --
24 because I want to save time, I'm perfectly willing to start right now.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do it this way. You will require less than
1 two hours.
2 MR. BOURGON: Probably half an hour, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic?
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 15 minutes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek?
6 MR. MEEK: 15 minutes or less.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic?
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: No cross-examination for this witness,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We have no questions, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: The Gvero team, none?
13 MR. JOSSE: Nothing.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes?
15 MR. SARAPA: 15 minutes, maybe less.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes.
17 MR. THAYER: Can we please release our next witness, the one we
18 had to fill in the gap, it's witness 4? I don't think we can get --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I also suggest that we shorten the break to 20
20 minutes? So we will reconvene at exactly 6.00. Please be punctual.
21 --- Recess taken at 5.39 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon. Mr. Bourgon?
24 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ivanovic.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. I do not have too many questions for you today. Well, first allow
4 me to introduce myself, my name is Stephane Bourgon and I appear today on
5 behalf of Drago Nikolic. And I do not have too many questions, but I do
6 want to take the opportunity to complete some of the answers you gave to
7 the Prosecution, but mostly to confirm what you mentioned in your
8 interview. Now, you do remember being interviewed by the Prosecution in
9 April of this year, do you?
10 A. I think it was in 2006.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
12 MR. NICHOLLS: The witness has provided the answer.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
14 MR. BOURGON:
15 Q. Indeed, April of 2006. Now, you remember that this interview was
16 recorded, do you remember that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. I understand from reading the interview that you were given a copy
19 shortly thereafter; is that correct?
20 A. No.
21 Q. When you came to the Tribunal this week, to prepare for your
22 testimony, you did have a chance to read your testimony, did you, your
23 interview, did you?
24 A. Yes. I received a copy two months ago. This is when I first read
1 Q. Now, my questions today are based on this interview, and so none
2 of the questions I will ask you will be a surprise or should be a
3 surprise, and I invite you, wherever possible, to answer by yes or no.
4 Now, of course, if you need to expand on any given questions, it's
5 perfectly okay with me. First question I have is that when you were
6 interviewed by the Prosecution, you were told that you were a suspect; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. And when you met with the Prosecution, I guess the first meeting
10 was last Friday, you were told or you were reminded that you were still a
11 suspect; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, knowing that you are a suspect, do you have any reason to
14 hide anything before this Trial Chamber today?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And I also noticed that today you are testifying without any
17 protection measures, and do you have any reason to be -- to doubt about
18 your security, about what you're saying publicly which may be heard by the
19 population in Zvornik?
20 A. No, not for a single moment.
21 Q. Now, in 1995, I would just like to confirm that you were 27 years
22 old; is that correct? I'm talking about July 1995.
23 A. I was born in 1967, so how many years was it until 1995? Yes, I
24 guess so.
25 Q. And that was -- you will agree with me that were you married and
1 that you had two very young children at home, one was aged 3 and one was
2 aged 1; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, in response to a question from my colleague about your
5 involvement in the military police of the Zvornik Brigade, you said you
6 were a member of the traffic section. Would that be a fair statement to
7 say that your main role was guard duty at bridges or other locations?
8 Would that be a good illustration of your work most of the time?
9 A. Yes. Ninety per cent of the time.
10 Q. And I have a quick question: I'd like to know whether you were
11 wearing a watch back in 1995.
12 A. I have never worn a watch, before the war, during, or after.
13 Q. Now, in your interview with the Prosecution, as well as in your
14 testimony today, you did refer to various times. Would I be right in
15 saying that these are your best recollection and approximate or are these
16 times very accurate?
17 A. Yes, it is an approximation.
18 Q. So there could be a difference with a few hours more or less
19 concerning the different times that you stated in your interview?
20 A. Yes. It is possible that there are differences.
21 Q. Now, moving on directly to the time you were sent to Orahovac, and
22 my colleague stated that that was in July of 1995, I'd just like to
23 confirm with you that your understanding was that you were sent there to
24 provide security to those people who were detained in the school; is that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And your understanding was also that you were to prevent of course
3 those prisoners from escaping but also to protect them from harm? Would
4 that be a fair statement?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And today in response to a question from my colleague, you stated
7 that Jasikovac addressed you and your group in Orahovac shortly after you
8 arrived, but would it be right that Jasikovac also lined you up before
9 leaving Standard or Zvornik Brigade command to address you about what you
10 were going to do that night?
11 A. At the Standard, no. He addressed us in front of the gym in
13 Q. So in Orahovac, then, it's only Stevo Kostic who spoke to you?
14 A. No. Stevo Kostic, the company clerk, notified me of going to
15 Orahovac, and Jasikovac spoke to us once we were there.
16 Q. Yes. I'm sorry, that was a mistake on my part. I stated that in
17 Orahovac but I meant at Standard, it is Stevo Kostic who told you that you
18 would go to Orahovac. Now, when Jasikovac addressed you in Orahovac, he
19 did tell you that these people, which were expected to arrive, would be
20 exchanged the next day; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And reading from your interview, he did say that not a single hair
23 should be missing on any of the prisoners. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes. He said that. I remember it.
25 Q. Now, you know today that prisoners were killed in Orahovac; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you have any information that you know of as to who killed
4 these prisoners back in 1995?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you have then and do you have any information today, as to who
7 was responsible or who was there at the place where they were killed?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And I take it that you have no information either that the
10 military police was involved in any way in these killings; is that
12 A. Not the military police. It is correct.
13 Q. Now, you already stated to my colleague that you yourself did not
14 go in the direction of the front line, but I suggest to you that you saw
15 no military policemen, none of your fellow military policemen, go into
16 that direction towards the front line; is that correct?
17 A. I wasn't there so I couldn't see anyone. So therefore, yes, it is
19 Q. And I take it that you described the arrival of Drago Nikolic the
20 next day, so I'm not going to go back into what you answered already.
21 What I'd like to know is that when you did see Drago Nikolic, that was
22 before the trucks arrived, the trucks that were to be used to carry these
23 prisoners; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the conversation between Drago Nikolic and a superior officer
1 that you don't know the identity, that also took place before these trucks
2 arrived; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, there is something you stated on page 53, lines 14 to 15,
5 concerning the arrival of soldiers that morning. Would I be correct in
6 saying that there was a lapse of time between the arrival of Drago Nikolic
7 and the arrival of these soldiers in the morning?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So would I be right in saying that Drago Nikolic, unlike what you
10 stated on page 53, lines 14 to 15, they did not arrive with Drago Nikolic;
11 is that correct?
12 A. It is correct, they did not arrive there with Drago Nikolic.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls?
14 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm just looking at page 53, lines 14.
15 MR. BOURGON: It's 15 and 16.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah, but what the witness said was that "The
17 brigade chief Nikolic came and shortly afterwards some 20 to 30 soldiers
18 arrived as well." That's exactly what he said and it's being represented
19 that he didn't say that. I don't quite understand.
20 MR. BOURGON: What I was referring to - and I appreciate if my
21 colleague would not interrupt cross-examination - is that on lines 15 and
22 16, it is said, "He told that the soldiers that arrived with him were to
23 take over the civilians." And that's what I was referring to and now the
24 witness can confirm.
25 Q. And I'll ask you again, Mr. Ivanovic, those soldiers did not
1 arrive with Mr. Nikolic; is that correct?
2 A. Drago came with his driver only. Only after a certain short
3 while, after his arrival, these 20 to 30 soldiers arrived.
4 Q. Now, I have a few questions with respect to the sequence of events
5 and I go back to, initially, that your group travelled in a minibus, you
6 said. I'd just like you to confirm that this is the bus that belonged to
7 military police and that in fact we are talking about a small bus and not
8 a van; is that correct?
9 A. We called it the police -- military police minibus. It had 15 to
10 16 seats.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, when Jasikovac arrived that night in Orahovac, he
12 arrived using his own vehicle; is that correct?
13 A. He came in a military vehicle, yes.
14 Q. And it is Jasikovac who instructed your group about also the
15 positions that you were to take, two at the door and the rest around the
16 school; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. The most important ones were at the door.
18 Q. And you yourself, the only time you went into that gym was before
19 the prisoners arrived, when Jasikovac asked you to look around in the gym;
20 is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you stated later on that there was the buses arrive and you
23 mentioned the number, seven, eight or maybe nine, but you stated also that
24 they were escorted by vehicles. I'd like to know just to confirm whether
25 the -- you mention an APC. Can you confirm that this was an APC that was
1 white and had UN signs on the side?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, these vehicles must have had their lights on because it was
4 dark. Would I be right?
5 A. 9.00, 9.00 p.m., yes, they had their lights on. It wasn't
6 completely dark but almost.
7 Q. Now, when in your interview you describe the arrival of the
8 prisoners and you mention that they had all sorts of uniforms, some were
9 in military uniforms, some in civilian and some in working uniforms, for
10 the sake of my colleague I quote from page 14 of the interview, lines 10
11 to 11, you remember -- is that a fair representation of those people --
12 those prisoners arriving that night?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You also mentioned that you -- you spoke about an officer that
15 night, a senior officer arriving in a Mercedes. I prefer to say that than
16 the Puh but I would just like to confirm that this vehicle, the same
17 officer you saw the next morning arrived in the same vehicle; is that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. During the night, I suggest to you that nobody brought any food
21 and the same thing the next day, throughout the day, you did not receive
22 any food by anyone; is that correct?
23 A. It is correct. We didn't get any.
24 Q. And when you were dismissed, it is in fact Jasikovac who dismissed
25 the group after speaking with Nikolic; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, you know, I suggest to you, the officers of Zvornik Brigade;
3 is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. If any other officer from Zvornik Brigade had been there that
6 night or that morning, I take it that you would have recognised them; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And talking about that conversation between Drago Nikolic and this
10 senior officer, you stated in your interview, and that is at page 17,
11 lines 13 to 14, that the senior officer appeared to be in charge. Is that
12 a fair statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you also stated at page 19, lines 13 to 14, that during the
15 day, Jasikovac was in charge in case something happened, to call you and
16 your group back together; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. He told us himself that he was going to call us back in case
18 of need.
19 Q. And you yourself that day, you stayed close to the shop, that is
20 about what you mentioned, 150 metres away from the school; is that
22 A. Yes, and we ate there. We bought some food at the shop.
23 Q. And from that position, I take it, as you stated in your
24 interview, that you could not see whether the prisoners were blindfolded;
25 is that correct?
1 A. I couldn't see.
2 Q. And you could not tell either who was in charge of loading the
3 people on the trucks?
4 A. No. I could not see. Not only me, no one who was there could see
5 from that far away.
6 Q. Now, you did say in your interview, however, that you could see
7 that the trucks were escorted, that there was, as far as you were aware,
8 some soldiers in all the trucks as escort. Did you see this or did you
9 assume that this was the case?
10 A. We could see it. One can see a soldier or a truck 150 metres
12 Q. And these soldiers, they were, I suggest to you, the same soldiers
13 that arrived in the morning; is that correct?
14 A. Most likely, it was them.
15 Q. And these soldiers, when they arrived, you did not recognise them,
16 did you?
17 A. No. I did not.
18 Q. So you cannot assist us today in saying whether they were from
19 Zvornik Brigade or from another brigade?
20 A. Had they been from the Zvornik Brigade, I would have recognised
21 them most likely. At least some of them.
22 Q. And when you left the school, you provided a time today, but we
23 know of course this is an approximate time now, but in your interview you
24 stated that you do not know whether the school at that time was empty; is
25 that correct?
1 A. I didn't know if it was empty. It is correct, yes.
2 Q. And when you returned to Standard, this is where you heard one of
3 your colleagues asking Jasikovac what happened, and being told that some
4 had been killed and some had been exchanged; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. It is. Jasikovac came to the Standard in a separate
6 vehicle. He wasn't on the minibus. That soldier asked him that and that
7 was the answer he gave.
8 Q. And you spent only a few minutes back at Standard, according to
9 your interview at page 24; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, up to one hour max.
11 Q. Now, would I be right that at that point in time, not only you
12 were tired and exhausted, but also, according to your interview, you
13 wanted to get away from this and you basically had the impression that --
14 not the impression but the hope that you would never be involved in this
15 war? Is that how you felt at that time?
16 A. Yes, precisely.
17 Q. I turn to the next day, about Rocevic. That day, when Jasikovac
18 picked you up, you were on traffic duty at the Karakaj bridge; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And your colleague on that occasion was Boro Nikolic, who happens
22 to be Drago Nikolic's brother; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the bus you used on that occasion was the same bus from the
25 previous day, which is the military police minibus, having 15 to 16 seats;
1 is that correct?
2 A. Yes. The very same.
3 Q. And that shop [sic], according to your interview, was parked near
4 the shop close to the school in Rocevic; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. Across the road.
6 Q. And when Jasikovac went inside the school, according to your
7 interview, you don't know what he did in the school or who he spoke to; is
8 that correct?
9 A. It is.
10 Q. Again according to your interview, you did not see any prisoners,
11 buses or trucks that day.
12 A. Precisely so.
13 Q. Now, you did say there were soldiers around the Rocevic school.
14 Can you confirm that these soldiers were not from Zvornik Brigade, that
15 you did not know any of them?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
17 MR. NICHOLLS: I think that compound question should be broken up.
18 MR. BOURGON:
19 Q. You never saw any of the prisoners held in the school that day; is
20 that correct?
21 A. I didn't see any.
22 Q. And you did not see any movement of prisoners such as you saw from
23 far away the night, the day before, in Orahovac; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is correct.
25 Q. Now, my colleague, I believe, asked you this question but I just
1 want to confirm that you did not see any dead bodies close or anywhere
2 where you were around the school in Rocevic; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. While we were there, there were no corpses.
4 Q. And I take it that you did not see Drago Nikolic at the Rocevic
6 A. I didn't see any of the officers apart from Jasikovac.
7 Q. Now, my colleague asked you about the time you were driving
8 Drago Nikolic, sometimes before those events, for a period of a couple of
9 months, I believe you said, and in your interview, you said that your
10 relationship with Drago Nikolic was that of officer to soldier. Can you
11 comment as to what type of officer Drago Nikolic was, from your
12 perspective as a soldier?
13 A. He was a professional at his job.
14 Q. And a different issue that is also raised in your interview,
15 concerning the possibility that the prisoners or probably the people who
16 were killed and buried in various locations would have been moved, were
17 you asked about this in your interview, and you stated at page 30 or 31,
18 lines 1 to 6, I'm sorry, that you had no knowledge about that, that you
19 only heard about it. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct. I don't think the military police was
22 Q. Now, I just have one last question, which puzzles me a bit, and I
23 was -- do you believe that testifying before this Tribunal is something
24 that is serious?
25 A. I do. Yes.
1 Q. I ask you the question and I hesitated before asking the question
2 because I kind of see that sometimes there is some -- something that looks
3 like a smile on your face and I was just wondering is that because you are
4 nervous or -- I can't explain to myself why anyone would smile while
5 testifying. Maybe you can just assist the Trial Chamber in explaining why
6 this is so. Is it because you are nervous?
7 A. Possibly.
8 Q. I don't want to expand on this. I thank you very much,
9 Mr. Ivanovic.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Mr. Zivanovic?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ivanovic. My name is
14 Zoran Zivanovic and in these proceedings I appear for Vujadin Popovic. I
15 have only a couple of questions for you. I would like to take you back to
16 the event that you described when seven, eight or nine buses brought a
17 group of prisoners who were placed in the gym of the schoolhouse in
18 Orahovac. Since you testified that for a while you were at the door of
19 the gym, together with another soldier, let me ask you, did you see
20 whether the gym was full?
21 A. No. The gym was not full.
22 Q. Could you tell me or describe roughly what part of the gym was
23 occupied by the prisoners?
24 A. Well, approximately half of the gym. For our own safety and for
25 their safety, we had to press them into the second half of the gym. That
1 would be my rough estimate.
2 Q. Could you tell me whether they were sitting, standing, whether
3 they were free to assume the position they liked or they had to be in a
4 certain position like standing up?
5 A. At the beginning, they were standing, and perhaps around 2.00 or
6 3.00 a.m., they were already seated in that half of the gym.
7 Q. And can you tell me roughly how many people, how many prisoners,
8 were in that gym?
9 A. Well, nobody told us to count them but my rough estimate would be
10 350 because you could -- you can calculate that, if the prisoners were
11 only in one half of the gym taking into account the size of the gym.
12 Q. Thank you. You said that at the time the prisoners were brought,
13 there were some civilians around the school who swore and cursed them, who
14 were aggressive, so that you had to protect the prisoners and remove the
15 civilians away from the school. I would like to you clarify, since you
16 did have some sort of contact with the people who acted in that way, were
17 you able to understand why they acted that way?
18 A. They had heard that these people were people from Srebrenica, and
19 a lot of people, a lot of people from Srebrenica were involved in evil
20 things that were perpetrated against those folks so they were very bitter.
21 Q. When you mention evil things, do you mean to say that family
22 members of those civilians were involved, were the victims of crimes
23 perpetrated by people from Srebrenica?
24 A. Yes. I mean that those people had someone in their family who
25 were victims of people from Srebrenica.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Zivanovic. Mr. Meek?
2 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:
4 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I just have a few questions I want to
5 clarify. You stated that as soon as Drago Nikolic arrived, he released
6 you and you were free but Jasikovac said you should stay around the area;
7 is that correct?
8 A. I don't know if Drago said that to Jasikovac but Jasikovac told
9 that to us.
10 Q. And that was immediately in the morning after Drago Nikolic had
11 arrived; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, I take it that on the day before the evening you were asked
14 to go to Orahovac, you had been on duty at Karakaj; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you arrived back at the Standard base about midnight and were
17 told that you should go to the Orahovac school?
18 A. No. I came to Standard about 5.00 p.m., 1700 hours.
19 Q. Sir, did you stay at Standard until you were finally on the bus to
20 Orahovac school?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And --
23 A. Three hours.
24 Q. And you indicated in several places in your interview that it was
25 a very long night.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That it was a very tough night due to the lack of sleep.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you even indicated that on the way back, all of you were very,
5 very tired, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you also indicated that when the -- what you believed to be
8 higher or superior officers arrived, that you tried to stay away from
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. MEEK: I don't have any further questions, thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Meek. Mr. Sarapa?
13 MR. SARAPA: We don't have questions. Thank you. No questions.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you. Mr. Nicholls? Do you have a
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have one moment, Your Honour?
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
20 Mr. Ivanovic, we have succeeded in completing your testimony
21 today, thanks to the cooperation of Prosecution and Defence. This means
22 you are free to go. Our staff will make the necessary arrangements and
23 assist you accordingly. On behalf of the Trial Chamber I wish to thank
24 you for having come over to give testimony and I also wish you a safe
25 journey back home.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents?
4 MR. NICHOLLS: We have none, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Any of the Defence teams? All right. That closes
6 that chapter.
7 Now, tomorrow, we start -- all the arrangements are in place?
8 Okay. We start in open session because that would be required according
9 to the rule. And then we proceed in closed session after that. All
10 right? So 2.15 here. Thank you.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.43 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of August,
13 2007, at 2.15 p.m.