1 Wednesday, 31 October 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam Registrar. Could you
6 kindly call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. For the record all the accused are here,
10 and I think we are full house -- no, I don't see Mr. Bourgon. Okay.
11 And Prosecution is like yesterday, Mr. McCloskey and
12 Ms. Janisiewicz. Thank you.
13 Any preliminaries? None. So let's bring the -- and let's go into
14 closed session.
15 [Closed session]
11 Pages 17190-17238 redacted. Closed session
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We are now.
18 MR. HAYNES: I'm rising at this point to try and clear up,
19 clarify, and advance what is becoming a growing problem in the case with
20 three of the most important documents, P377, P378, and P379. That's the
21 Zvornik Brigade duty officer's workbook as we now call it for the July
22 period. What we call the war diary, that's P378; and the workbook for the
23 later period running into September, that's P379. We are fast approaching
24 the anniversary of Mr. Thayer's undertaking to have those documents
25 translated. I think I can probably give you the date. It was early
1 December when we were promised by the Prosecution that those documents
2 would be translated, and we still don't have them. There's an
3 illogicality in their exhibit status at the moment. P377 is marked for
4 identification. P378, which is 152 pages in B/C/S but only five of which
5 are translated into English, has been exhibited. And P379, which is
6 completely untranslated I think, is marked for identification.
7 My submission is that P378 should not be exhibited pursuant to
8 your response to Mr. Thayer in December of last year, it should be marked
9 for identification purposes only, but I also invite the Prosecution to
10 give us an update on where we're going with this. A year ago we asked for
11 I think something like 80 pages of those documents to be translated, and
12 upon the Prosecution's undertaking we withdrew those requests for
13 translation because the Prosecution told us they would have the whole
14 document translated. And now we're in prejudiced position, and during the
15 course of my cross-examination I had to bite my tongue not to react to the
16 criticism of me for using untranslated documents, because I was using
17 documents that the Prosecution had undertaken to have translated.
18 And we're getting towards the end of the Prosecution case and
19 these are three of the most important documents in the case and they are
20 still, in relation to two of them, marked for identification; and in
21 relation to the third one should be marked for identification.
22 So I get that off my chest now, and I invite the Prosecution to
23 state now on the record and in open session when we can expect to have
24 those documents translated.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: If I see well, because there is -- yeah, Mr. Thayer
1 is here but I can't see him.
2 Mr. Thayer or Mr. McCloskey, who's going to handle this? I'm
3 assuming that Mr. Thayer is busy preparing for the celebration of the
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: You may be getting tired of hearing from me, I'm
6 certainly tired of talking, but we have had the key parts of this
7 translated. There's a few parts that Mr. Haynes is interested in one or
8 two lines in various dates in September and October that we've now put in.
9 We are trying to convince CLSS and our own resources to continue the
10 translation of hundreds of pages that no one can really point to specific
11 relevance to, aside from that they're fascinating documents and they're
12 full of facts and details, and I understand the Defence wants them
13 translated. I will check where we are on that and see. But as you know,
14 this institution, as it's always been, is buried in this kind of work and
15 it's hard for even us to get this done.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do I take it that the pages that need to be
17 translated have been definitely identified by you and others, Mr. Haynes?
18 MR. HAYNES: No, they haven't, because we had this debate a year
19 ago, as I say. We had 80 pages pending translation. I can probably go
20 back to that list and give them to the Prosecution and say these are the
21 80 pages we're interested in. But we were stopped in our tracks by the
22 undertaking that the Prosecution would have the whole document translated,
23 and, you know --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Haynes.
25 Mr. Thayer. Yes, I can now see you.
1 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.
4 MR. THAYER: The last I had checked on that issue, and I think I
5 provided an oral update at the time, was that we were -- and I was told
6 very close to having the entire document completely translated. That's
7 where I thought it was some months ago. I have not followed up since
8 then, nor have I had any requests from anybody as to the progress or with
9 respect to any particular portions of the document. So frankly it hasn't
10 been something that's been brought to my attention as a need from any
11 party. We are checking right now to find out exactly where it is, but my
12 understanding was that the entire document was very close to being
13 translated. We had in fact worked, as I understood it, with Mr. Haynes
14 and his team because there had been other portions translated by CLSS
15 independently of what we were doing from our team, and we, I thought, had
16 integrated those translations so there wouldn't be a duplication of work.
17 We're following it up, but again my understanding was that we were very
18 close to completing the entire translation, and that was some time ago.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please, our understanding of this was or has
20 been that there was an ongoing undertaking that it will be concluded
21 without further delay, and my understanding also on Mr. Haynes's position
22 is that he's been raising this matter periodically, voicing his concern
23 that this job had not yet been completed. So tomorrow morning, please,
24 Mr. McCloskey or Mr. Thayer, come back to us with a definitive report on
25 where we stand unless you are in a position to update us even today.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I will do that. We share Mr. Haynes's concern,
2 and so we're together on this, that's not a problem, and I understand
3 frustrations. Though, I do want to update you. We do have a product that
4 we will be providing you based on -- and partially a request of
5 Mr. Bourgon, where we have a -- the English translation on one side and
6 the B/C/S on the other and where the English translation is trying to
7 mirror the B/C/S so that when you see the translation you can actually see
8 where it's coming from. And we've also identified from our handwriting
9 experts and the evidence that's come in who's written down the various
10 parts of this book and so that you will see it. This is done for the key
11 dates from the 12th through about the 23rd. I have asked my colleagues to
12 look into that, to double-check the -- our work, the translations, and
13 offer any other pages they want to have translated. So you can see this
14 in this form, it really makes a difference. I've heard some word back,
15 mostly supportive. So if there's anything else anyone has to they want us
16 to put into this exhibit, let us know and we'll get that together, but
17 it's not meant to replace the big translation for everything.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That still constitutes good news, and I thank you
19 for that, Mr. McCloskey.
20 Shall we -- are we ready for the next witness?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe -- and I think we're still in closed
23 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, we are in open session and we have been for
24 the past 20 minutes.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we should be in closed session from what I
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Private session. I don't think we need to move --
3 whatever the difference. Closed session. Let's go into closed session.
4 [Closed session]
11 Pages 17245-17269 redacted. Closed session
24 [Open session]
25 MS. CONDON: Today is my last appearance as co-counsel on behalf
1 of Mr. Popovic. I would like to thank the Trial Chamber for the courtesy
2 that you've showed me when I've appeared before you. I would like to
3 thank the court staff for their assistance and generally for the
4 experience that I've had while I've been here and I thank the
5 Trial Chamber.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Condon. Actually, when I was at home
7 yesterday going through some material, well I decided to check my e-mail
8 again which I do every hour or so and only to come across advance
9 information that this was taking place. And to be honest with you, it
10 came to -- as a surprise to all of us. Usually this is not a common
11 occurrence, but it has happened and that has happened in the past. And
12 when it happened, usually I always took it upon myself to say a few words
13 which I'm going to do as well.
14 We had grown accustomed to your presence here and your
15 intervention, your active intervention in the case, and of course we will
16 miss you, not just us but I think everyone else who has been happy finding
17 himself or herself happy to work with you. I think as time goes by you
18 will be remembered here, you will be remembered for a few things, at least
19 speaking for myself. You will be remembered for the way you can greet the
20 Trial Chamber with a smile even when you are absolutely angry with some of
21 our decisions and you can still put on a smile and that is a very useful
22 asset for any lawyer that looks ahead to a colourful and good career.
23 You will also be remembered for having put us professional Judges
24 in inverted commas which made us muse for quite some time whether we were
25 supposed to be in a niche or whether it was a way of describing it, but
1 anyway we remember that instance with some -- with a smile, with a smile.
2 And we will also remember you because in our hearts we all know that your
3 presence here for over a year, if it has shown anything, it has shown that
4 you have got a great career ahead of you and while you are away pursuing
5 your next stage in your career, we will be remembering you and we will be
6 thinking of you. And we have no doubt in our mind that we will -- not for
7 a moment, that a great road lies ahead and that you will have a great
8 career, Ms. Condon.
9 You will also be remembered for the change in your face when I -
10 and I apologise once more - addressed you as Ms. Cubbon instead of
11 Ms. Condon. These are events that are usually not -- one doesn't cancel
12 them by means of a rubber, they stick in the mind. And brings me to an
13 end. I speak on behalf of my colleagues but also my staff, including
14 John Cubbon. I wish you all the best in your career and I'm sure that our
15 wish will be respected by destiny.
16 MS. CONDON: Thank you for those comments, Your Honour, they're
17 very kind.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the position being what it is, I think we
19 need to meet tomorrow morning at 9.00 just the same, and then we take it
20 up from there. All right.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of
23 November, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.