071102ED

Page 17358

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. That was the time when they showed you several photographs of

3 different buildings and different places. Does this refresh your memory?

4 A. I tell you they showed me all these things at that time. I cannot

5 remember all of this exactly. You go on putting your questions and let's

6 move on that way.

7 Q. When you met with the investigators of the OTP they showed you the

8 pictures of a school and meadow and different places then, in 1996?

9 A. Possibly.

10 Q. Yesterday, when you were telling us about what had happened, you

11 said that on the road to Krizevici you arrived during the night between

12 the 13th and 14th of July, 1995, after midnight around 2.00 in the gym of

13 a school.

14 A. Yes, exactly.

15 Q. When you were getting off the bus and as you were approaching that

16 building --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- the soldiers made you look at your feet and it was night.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The next day, as you said, around 2000 hours when you were taken

21 out of the gym you were blindfolded; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So in fact you never saw the building of that school where you

24 were for a while -- or, rather, in the gym of that school?

25 A. What do you mean when I didn't see it then after that?

Page 17359

1 Q. That night and the next day.

2 A. Well, that night I watched it all night when we were getting out

3 of the gym and going onto the truck. That is when they blindfolded us.

4 Q. And during the night while you were in the gym, you were watching

5 all of this?

6 A. Watching, of course.

7 Q. However, while you were outside you couldn't see?

8 A. Well, as for that, I could see, because it was see-through, this

9 blindfold, and I put it up on my forehead, because being a disabled person

10 I could trip over and fall, and when I can see properly then I can see and

11 I won't fall.

12 Q. And no one cautioned you because of that?

13 A. No. They just shouted, "Keep quiet. Don't talk." That was it.

14 Q. Could we please call up on e-court document -- or, rather, the

15 statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 7th of July, 1996,

16 and the number is 5297. 5247 -- 3D247. Could we please see page 2.

17 Sir, could you please be so kind as to look at the screen in front

18 of you. It would be the third paragraph that starts with the words "I

19 would not be capable of recognising."

20 A. What?

21 Q. Would you please read this?

22 A. I cannot read it. I cannot see that right. Even with glasses

23 it's hard for me to see.

24 Q. Can I read it out for you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17360

1 Q. "I would not be able to recognise this building as the school that

2 I was taken to during the night between the 13th and 14th of July, 1996,

3 because it was night-time and I had to watch my feet only."

4 So in 1996 when you talked to the Office of the Prosecutor only a

5 year after these events, you stated that you cannot recognise this

6 building, and that was the picture of this school that was shown to you

7 then, as the building where you were taken during that night in 1995.

8 A. I could not recognise the school, but I could recognise the gym,

9 especially the interior of the gym, because I had a good look at it.

10 Schools were built according to the same system. There could be a similar

11 school somewhere else, but the interior of the gym is the same one that I

12 was in.

13 When I saw that the school and the gym were linked up, then I

14 realised that it was that same school that was there then.

15 Q. In the case of most schools, are the gyms and the schools

16 themselves linked up?

17 A. No.

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

19 P1775.

20 Q. Could you please have a look at this photograph in front of you.

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Is that the gym?

23 A. Well, right now I cannot orient myself because I cannot see the

24 door at all.

25 Q. Is it quite different?

Page 17361

1 A. Well, it's different because the roof construction is not like

2 this. The windows are different on the left-hand side.

3 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you something else. It was your

4 testimony that you spent the entire night in this gym?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the prisoners --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Vanderpuye.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm not certain if I'm correct, but if my

9 colleague is insinuating that the photograph that she's referred to the

10 witness is the gym in which he spent the entire night, I don't think that

11 it's a fair question or an appropriate question. I think it's been

12 established for the record that that is the case.

13 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. My intention was

14 not --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, because what I was going to say is precisely

16 what Judge Prost has just told me, and I'm sure Judge Kwon would agree

17 with this. I don't want this discussion to go any further in the presence

18 of the witness. Okay.

19 Do you understand English?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you sure?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Can you remove your headphones for a while,

24 please.

25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Maybe I can just move on and speak

Page 17362

1 in my own bad English.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Let's do that. You've said what

3 you had to say. Do you want to expand on it, Mr. Vanderpuye?

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I was just trying to catch up on the -- on the

5 scrolling -- on the scrolling --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You said it's not a fair question or an appropriate

7 question if she is -- if Madam Nikolic is insinuating that the photograph

8 she's referred the witness to is the gym in which he spent the entire

9 night. That's what we have on the transcript. You kept on saying, "I

10 think it has been established for the record that this is the case," and I

11 stopped you there because you hadn't finished, I think.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, actually what that should read is that that

13 is not the case, and I have had a chance to read the transcript and I do

14 stand by my objection. The witness did not identify that photograph as

15 the gym in which he spent the night, and so I don't think it's an

16 appropriate or fair question to put to the witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let me hear what Madam Nikolic has to say.

18 If you can address -- the point is --

19 MS. NIKOLIC: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think it's clear enough I don't need to

21 explain.

22 MS. NIKOLIC: My intention was not to confuse the witness, just to

23 show that the gym inside could be similar, but I don't want to put him --

24 for him to agree with me that he was in this particular gym which is on

25 the screen now.

Page 17363

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And in any case, he hasn't agreed to that

2 proposition, so I think we can move -- we can move --

3 MS. NIKOLIC: That's my point.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We can move. Thank you, Ms. Nikolic. Thank you,

5 Mr. Vanderpuye. I think it was a storm in a teacup. Let's proceed with

6 your next question, madam.

7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

8 just like to ask for this photograph to be removed from the screen,

9 because I think that in his answers the witness is going to make

10 references to the photograph and we don't really need that.

11 Q. Sir, when we started this part of our discussion, from midnight on

12 when you came to this gym, some gym, you said that during the course of

13 the night several prisoners would be brought in.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you talk to these men who were being brought in?

16 A. I talked to one of them, this person I knew. So I talked to him.

17 Q. Did you hear that some of these prisoners came in escorted by APCs

18 of the UN, certain convoys, and so on?

19 A. No. I just heard that they came on a truck, this person that I

20 talked to.

21 Q. Were there groups of prisoners who were brought in during the

22 course of the afternoon on the 14th of July, 1995?

23 A. No, not in the afternoon.

24 Q. I'd like to ask you something in relation to the photograph that

25 my colleague showed you yesterday. If you remember -- we don't really

Page 17364

1 have to look at it on the screen again if you think it's all right. The

2 photograph where you saw the iron railing and the railroad. Do you

3 remember that photograph?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. On another occasion when you met with the OTP in 1998 --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- this is what you said when you described the place where it was

8 that you were lying --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I'm reading to you the notes of the investigator of the OTP.

11 "Nearby he saw some railing and a railroad, but he could --"

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak slower -- read

13 slower, rather.

14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise to the interpreters.

15 Q. "Nearby he saw some railing and a bridge, but he did not see a

16 railroad. Next to the meadow he saw a house and tall trees between two

17 heaps of bodies, as well as an excavator that could rotate 360 degrees."

18 Sir, what I read out to you just now was recorded by an

19 investigator of The Hague Tribunal as a result of his conversation with

20 you in October 1998. So on the basis of what you told him and that he

21 wrote down, you said that you saw a house by the meadow.

22 A. Underneath those pastures there was a house, I think.

23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

24 Exhibit P1706.

25 Q. Now you're going to see a photograph on your screen.

Page 17365

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So I'd like to ask you whether that is, perhaps, the house and the

3 meadow that you saw.

4 A. All right. Now I cannot remember this because it was a long time

5 ago, but it looked like -- I cannot remember.

6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness 1706,

7 please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This is 1706.

9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. 1705 then. I'm sorry.

10 Q. Sir, can this photograph refresh your memory?

11 A. No, it can't.

12 Q. In fact, yesterday when testified about the location where you

13 were lying down on the 14th of July in the evening, you described it and

14 recognised it from what people from Tuzla told you when you arrived on

15 free territory.

16 A. I recognised it was a railroad and the flyover. They recognise it

17 by the flyover, and they recognise it by -- as the gym where they used to

18 play basketball.

19 Q. And who are these people from Tuzla who refreshed your memory?

20 A. The people from that place who were living there, who had been

21 expelled to Tuzla.

22 Q. And they were present while you were giving your statement?

23 A. No. No, they were not.

24 Q. And when did they describe that location to you, the location

25 where you were lying down?

Page 17366

1 A. Three or four years later, I can't remember when I heard that, but

2 I heard that.

3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

4 further questions.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam.

6 Mr. Lazarevic or Mr. Stojanovic?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. I'm Miodrag Stojanovic and together with my colleagues here I

12 appear for Mr. Borovcanin. I'd only like to go through a couple of

13 documents with you.

14 A. All right.

15 Q. We have to talk a bit slower, because it seems that we are fast

16 talkers, both of us.

17 A. We'll slow down a little then.

18 Q. If I understood you well yesterday, on the 11th of July in the

19 afternoon you were in your village, engaged in your usual farming works.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Also yesterday, for the record it's transcript page 32, lines 13

22 to 16, you also said at one point you heard a report from your locals that

23 somebody from the civilian defence had come to pass on the message that

24 all the population should go to Potocari except able-bodied men fit for

25 the army who should go through the woods.

Page 17367

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, let us go through this in detail. Can we look at Exhibit

3 1D0041.

4 While we're waiting for it, I would like to say that is your

5 statement that you had given to the Prosecutor -- to the Office of the

6 Prosecutor, the investigator Jean-Rene Ruez, in July 1995, and on page --

7 I have just been told that the number is not right. 1D00441. Thank you.

8 In that statement when you were describing this moment -- can we

9 see the first paragraph of page 2 both in English and in Serbian.

10 You said, among other things -- I will read it because you can't

11 see well. You say, speaking of this event: "Around 1600 hours a soldier

12 came and asked all able-bodied men to go to the front line. I did not go

13 because I was an invalid."

14 And then you go on to say: "Between 1800 hours and 1900 hours

15 another soldier came and said they were breaking out through the front

16 line and that all able-bodied men should try to save themselves, whereas

17 the other -- the rest of the population should go to the UNPROFOR base in

18 Potocari."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember that?

21 A. Well, I can't remember that now.

22 Q. But can we agree that this is a bit different now? Once you said

23 a man from the civilian defence came, and the first time, in 1995, you

24 said that one soldier came, then another one, and said the people should

25 go.

Page 17368

1 A. It's possible. I'm not denying the statement I had given earlier.

2 But regardless of whether it was a civilian or a soldier, somebody came

3 and said that Srebrenica had fallen.

4 Q. So it's possible that a soldier came on two occasions to pass that

5 message.

6 A. Well, if the person was able-bodied, he could have been a soldier,

7 but he could have been from the civilian defence equally.

8 Q. I understand that, and that's why I wanted to remove this

9 ambiguity. But what I want to ask you is do you remember -- did they tell

10 you then when you said the civilian population should go to Potocari, did

11 they tell you then that you would be transported from there to Tuzla,

12 Kladanj, et cetera?

13 A. They said transportation would be there, but they didn't say

14 where. They said that those of us who were not able bodied, fit for the

15 army, would go on from Potocari somewhere.

16 Q. Let us clarify. That piece of information that you would go to

17 Tuzla with somebody who would organise the transport, that's something you

18 were told in the afternoon of the 11th of July. Could it have been

19 between the -- between 6.00 and 7.00 p.m.?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. From this statement I see that your son was living

22 with you at the time. He was 30 then.

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. And he left with the army, with the troops?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17369

1 Q. Do you know to which military unit he belonged?

2 A. Well, I don't know these things so well as to be able to say. I

3 can tell you that it was a military unit in Srebrenica but no more.

4 Q. Did he arrive in Tuzla? Did he get there to the territory under

5 the control of the 2nd Corps? Did he arrive before you?

6 A. Yes, he did.

7 Q. And if I'm not mistaken, you arrived on the 20th or the 21st of

8 July, 1995. You were not able to say precisely.

9 A. I think it was a Wednesday, the 19th. I'm not sure though. At

10 any rate, I did cross over several days later.

11 Q. So on the 18th of -- or 19th of July -- on that day in July,

12 around 18 or 1900 hours around your village, Ornica, you didn't see any

13 Serbian soldiers?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I'm sorry, we have to wait for the interpretation.

16 A. It's all right. It's all right. Let's take it easy.

17 Q. That decision to go to Potocari, and I mean the civilian

18 population, the people who were able bodied should go to the woods, that

19 was a decision of the authorities in the enclave, and who passed that

20 message on to you?

21 A. I don't know. I wasn't even at home. I don't know who had come

22 to tell us. I just came home when they called out to me to come back. I

23 dropped the work I was doing gathering hay and came back home, and they

24 told me -- my folks told me that somebody had come to say that Srebrenica

25 had fallen, that the population who was not able bodied, not fit for the

Page 17370

1 army, should go to the base in Potocari, and able-bodied men should go

2 through the woods.

3 Q. Thank you. And now knowing the terrain a little bit, would I be

4 right in saying that you were going on foot from your hamlet or from your

5 village through Lehorici, Milacevici, the area of upper Potocari, and you

6 would come to Donji Potok?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And that took you at least three hours?

9 A. Approximately.

10 Q. On the way, did you run into members of the 28th Division of the

11 ABH?

12 A. No. We only came across people who were going to Potocari.

13 Q. As you were descending towards the asphalt road leading to

14 Srebrenica and Bratunac, on that intersection did you also see a group of

15 APCs of the UNPROFOR?

16 A. I did see them, but I can't remember exactly where, at which

17 point, whether it was as I was climbing down towards the asphalt road,

18 whether they were down there or at an elevation, and I can't tell you how

19 many there were.

20 Q. I'm asking you this because we had occasion to hear testimony here

21 saying that they had made a check-point on the way from their base to

22 Srebrenica and that there were four APCs stationed there on the 11th of

23 July. Could that be true according to your memory?

24 A. It was night and I wasn't looking around. I was just going

25 towards the UNPROFOR base. But in the morning I saw that there was an APC

Page 17371

1 or two, or maybe more. I can't confirm that part.

2 Q. All right. We'll move on. On that night of the 11th you were in

3 Potocari. You spent the night outside the factory that you called

4 Sacmara.

5 Could we now look at an exhibit that I was told would take a long

6 time to open, that's P02103, page 7 -- or photograph number 7. That's one

7 of the photographs from the collection we received during the testimony of

8 Jean-Rene Ruez, and it depicts a broader view of this village Donji

9 Potocari.

10 And, Witness, when you see the picture of Potocari, could I ask

11 you to mark the place where you were outside that factory to the best of

12 your recollection. You will see it on the screen in front of you.

13 And could I ask the usher to give the witness a pen to do the

14 marking.

15 Could we zoom in a little to make it easier for the witness to

16 mark the place? Thank you.

17 Sir, we'll now give you a pen, and if you can find your way around

18 this photograph, could you please mark the place where you were?

19 A. Where I spent the night?

20 Q. Yes. This blue frame marks the UN base. In the lower part of the

21 picture you see the road leading to Srebrenica, and in the upper right

22 corner you see the part of the road leading towards Bratunac. Is that the

23 way you remember it?

24 A. I can't orient myself here. Where is Srebrenica here?

25 Q. Srebrenica is --

Page 17372

1 A. Is it here?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Is this the road going from Potocari, this one?

4 Q. That's not the road coming from Potocari. It would be a little

5 lower, in the lower left --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, sorry for interrupting you.

7 Could the registrar just point the cursor to the bottom of the

8 screen, left-hand corner, on the road. On the road. Yes. Okay.

9 Sir, do you see a kind of a lens moving on the screen? Yes.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That is the road which takes you to Srebrenica.

12 Now, could we move --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This thing up there.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This thing --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rather, down there. Would that be

16 Srebrenica?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That is the road --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this goes to Bratunac.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And -- no. If you move the cursor now to the top

20 right-hand corner.

21 As the cursor moves, that is the road which would take you to

22 Bratunac.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you orient --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. Right. It has to be a bit

Page 17373

1 clearer.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But do you orient yourself better now?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I can do it now, yes.

4 Now I can find my way around. As long as you showed me which road leads

5 to Bratunac. I couldn't remember before, but now I'm all right.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: Thank you for your assistance.

7 Q. Can I now ask you, Witness, to take a pen and to mark the area

8 outside the factory you call Sacmara?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You will be given a pen now.

11 A. It would be here approximately.

12 Q. Put a circle around it.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you. And if you can, on this map mark the place where the

15 members of the Dutch Battalion were located who were releasing the buses,

16 letting them go through. Put a line there.

17 A. It would be around here.

18 Q. And can you mark the place on this map where that unfinished house

19 that you mentioned was located.

20 A. Now, I can't be sure -- I can't remember, but it should be --

21 since we were going this way towards the roadblock, and as we passed it,

22 as we separated, it should be in the direction of this house. Between

23 these two houses somewhere. I'm not sure, but it's possibly these houses.

24 Q. We also think it's there somewhere. But above those three dots

25 where you marked that house, could you put the letters NK, which stands

Page 17374

1 for unfinished house in Serbian.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you. And now where you marked the Sacmara factory, could

4 you put a date 11-12/7/95. 1995.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Excellent. Thank you. And somewhere towards the bottom under

7 that line on the road that you marked, could you put the letter P.

8 A. P?

9 Q. Yes, for "check-point."

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. And to finish with this, put today's date in the right bottom

12 corner, 2nd November 2007, and above that put PW-169.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. Well, thank you, too.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Witness. Mr. Stojanovic --

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I do have some more

18 questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, but I've been educated to say thank you

20 several times during the day.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not going to do that any

22 more.

23 Q. Can we agree that all of this is in Donji Potocari?

24 A. Yes, yes. All of it is in Donji Potocari.

25 Q. Shall we agree that there is also a village called Gornji

Page 17375

1 Potocari?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 I won't need the usher's assistance any more. I have some more

5 questions for the witness now.

6 Yesterday during your examination-in-chief you said, among other

7 things, that on the 12th of July in the morning, a delegation of the

8 refugeed people came to the gates of the UNPROFOR base and asked them what

9 was going to happen with you and when the evacuation would start.

10 For the record it's page 35 of yesterday's transcript.

11 And you were told that they were waiting for the buses, for your

12 transport.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you confirm that your representatives or your delegates

15 received this information from the members of the UNPROFOR?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And would I be right in saying that it was in the morning at 7.00

18 or 8.00?

19 A. It could have been at 10.00 in the morning, but at any rate it was

20 in the morning.

21 Q. But in any case as you said yesterday, it was before the first

22 Serb soldiers appeared.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Around what time, to the best of your knowledge, because you said

25 something about that in your earlier statements and testimony. Around

Page 17376

1 what time did your family move towards the buses?

2 A. After all this time I can't remember the hours, but I can confirm

3 the earlier statement I've given, because my memory was better then.

4 Q. Well, that's how I'm going to ask you. Don't hold it against me.

5 You said it was between 4.00 and 6.00 on the 12th. 4.00 and 6.00

6 on the 12th.

7 A. Well, then yes, it's true.

8 Q. Members of the Dutch Battalion were already around you at that

9 time?

10 A. Yes. Yes, they were.

11 Q. On page 36 of yesterday's transcript you said that those members

12 of the UNPROFOR made some sort of human shield, a live fence to sort of

13 streamline you towards the buses.

14 A. Yes, so that we wouldn't rush as a crowd, that we would go as a --

15 in a column.

16 Q. We had one witness testifying here, a witness who had been in

17 Potocari on the same day as you among the refugeed people, and that

18 witness said the soldiers were on the road, one Dutch soldier, one Serb,

19 then one Dutchman, one Serb holding hands, and they let people through

20 towards the buses by raising their arms to let people go through towards

21 buses and lorries, whereas the Serb soldiers standing next to the buses

22 separated men from their families.

23 That was on the 6th of November, 2006, pages 3620 to 3630.

24 And my question to you is: Was that witness right in describing

25 how this evacuation took place?

Page 17377

1 A. Those people who were forming a chain, I didn't know any of them.

2 They were all in uniform. So I suppose they were Dutch soldiers. But as

3 we were passing through and as they began to separate us, I noticed, I saw

4 that they were Serb soldiers. They were not raising arms when I was

5 passing through. Instead, they narrowed the road down to a passage of

6 about two metres so that people would go through it like a corridor.

7 Q. So it's possible that it happened this way, too, as this other

8 witness described it?

9 A. Well, I didn't know any of the soldiers. I thought they were all

10 from the UNPROFOR.

11 Q. Thank you. Before you got onto the buses, I'm talking about you

12 personally and your experience, you did not see any physical assaults,

13 anyone beating anyone with rifle butts, anyone kicking or punching anyone?

14 A. No, I didn't see any of that.

15 Q. While you were there did you see anyone attack a member of the

16 UNPROFOR, taking their equipment, their weapon?

17 A. No, I didn't see that either.

18 Q. These members of the Dutch Battalion, could they see this

19 separation in front of the buses and the trucks that you were talking

20 about?

21 A. Well, yes, absolutely. They were turning around, and they saw who

22 the Serb soldiers were separating from who.

23 Q. How did they react? Did they do anything?

24 A. Nothing. They were just looking, watching, and they were holding

25 hands.

Page 17378

1 Q. After they singled you out, they took you to this unfinished

2 house.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Will we agree that this was a single-storey house?

5 A. There was just one storey above the ground floor.

6 Q. Was the woodwork in place already?

7 A. No.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at P02103.

9 That is the next photograph, page 8.

10 Q. While we're waiting for that, again I'm going to ask you to take a

11 look at this. It will be in front of you. You will see a building, and

12 I'm going to ask you whether it's that particular building or another one,

13 if you can remember.

14 A. Fine. Fine. Yes.

15 Q. Perhaps this is going to take a while.

16 A. Never mind.

17 Q. Now I'm going to ask you to have a look at this. Let's have a

18 look at it together. Do you see this house in the central part of the

19 photograph?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Will we agree that that's not the house?

22 A. That's right. That's not the house.

23 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to move on.

24 While you were in the house that you were talking about --

25 A. Yes.

Page 17379

1 Q. -- was there any mention of the members of the Serb army wishing

2 to carry out an investigation as to whether there was anyone among you who

3 had committed some war crimes?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In conclusion, I'd like to ask you just one more thing. When you

6 set out from this house --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- you said that you walked. You went on foot about 200 metres --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- across a field, a meadow. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would I be right if I were to say on the basis of your previous

13 statement that you arrived in Bratunac around 2200 hours, or, rather,

14 10.00 that evening?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Will we agree that your transport from the place where you boarded

17 the buses to this hangar that you talked about could have taken up to 20

18 minutes at a maximum?

19 A. Not more than that. That's right. That's right.

20 Q. From the moment when you boarded these buses nobody took away your

21 rucksacks, the food that you had in these rucksacks, your equipment,

22 nothing?

23 A. Nothing. Nothing.

24 Q. We had occasion here to hear testimony from a man who was similar

25 to you who said that it was only before the school -- well, you said that

Page 17380

1 you did not have a bag, but those who had bags left them in front of the

2 school, the bags where they had food. Would that be correct as you

3 remember it?

4 A. I don't know what school.

5 Q. He was in front of the Vuk Karadzic school that you referred to?

6 A. Oh, yes. I see.

7 Q. Is that your recollection, that people who had rucksacks, bags

8 with food inside left them outside before they entered the buildings?

9 A. No, no. It was only in the morning that they took it away. When

10 dawn broke, that's when they took away all our things.

11 Q. The morning of the 13th?

12 A. Morning.

13 Q. Let me finish with this: Will you agree that it was already dark

14 when you set out towards Bratunac from Donji Potocari?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yesterday when you testified about the tragic events that you were

17 part of, you said that before it got dark at the place where this

18 execution took place you said that you saw Mladic. Do you remember that?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. For the record, it is page 64 and page 65 of yesterday's

21 transcript.

22 Can you tell us what the approximate time was when General Mladic

23 came to this meadow?

24 A. Well, I cannot because I was so afraid then. I didn't know

25 anything about what time it was, but I saw him very well. It was just

Page 17381

1 before dark, and I saw him very well and this soldier who was escorting

2 the little TAM truck, in the red car. They got out together. The solder

3 was taller than Mladic, perhaps, say, a head taller than him, in grey

4 uniform. He did not have a camouflage uniform, a grey uniform. This

5 soldier had a grey uniform.

6 Q. Let's try to agree on something at least. Can we say that it was

7 in the late afternoon hours of the 14th of July or in the evening hours?

8 A. Yes, yes, yes.

9 Q. If I were to tell you that there is a statement given to the

10 investigators of the Tribunal by Carl Bildt, who at that time was the

11 special envoy of the General-Secretary of the UN in Bosnia and for the

12 Balkans, and that he said that on that day, Friday the 14th of July, 1995,

13 in Dobanovci near Belgrade in the evening he was attending a meeting with

14 Slobodan Milosevic and General Mladic, would that bring into question this

15 part of your testimony?

16 A. No, it would not.

17 Q. You stand by what you said?

18 A. I still claim I would lay my life for that. I saw him, that's for

19 sure. You can check this. Had somebody taken a picture, then we could

20 have a look at it. I tell you, I mean now I would lay my life to support

21 that. Just like Carl Bildt is Carl Bildt, Mladic is Mladic. I tell you,

22 no difference.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. No

24 further questions.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now I thank you even more, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 17382

1 Witness, keep -- keep cool. Keep calm, okay? There is no reason

2 to get keyed up about anything.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this upsets me, this untruth,

4 when such a high official like Carl Bildt can say something like that.

5 How can I expect him to say something like that, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You have to be like us, very patient.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not get nervous if it was an

8 illiterate person who said something like that or one of these people over

9 there said something like that, that Mladic was in Belgrade, but

10 Carl Bildt, to say something like that, shame on him.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll convey the message. So keep calm.

12 Don't worry about anything. Lawyers are here to put questions, and

13 everyone is trying to -- stop. Stop. Stop.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine as far as all of them are

15 concerned. They're not upsetting me at all. It's not the gentleman, the

16 lawyer that upset me, no way. It's Bildt who upset me.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: As I said, we'll make that sure he gets the message.

18 Madam Fauveau. Go ahead.

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir, my name is Natasha

22 Fauveau-Ivanovic, and I represent Radivoje Miletic?

23 A. All right.

24 Q. You were talking about a decision that was taken on the 11th of

25 July, 2007, according to which people were to go to Potocari. If I

Page 17383

1 understood you correctly even before arriving to Potocari in the afternoon

2 of the 11th of July, 1995, you knew very well that the civilian population

3 was going to be evacuated; that is right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you went to Potocari with the members of your family in order

6 to be brought onto the territory that was under the control of the army of

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said today on page 16, line 11, that before your departure for

10 Potocari you had not seen Serb soldiers in your village, is that right?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And in fact, during that road that brings you to Potocari, you

13 never saw any Serb soldiers? And it was not the Serbs that told you to go

14 to Potocari and to leave your homes; is that right?

15 A. No.

16 Q. In that night, during that night that you spent in Potocari, and

17 I'm talking about the night of the 11th and 12 July 1995, you never heard

18 any gunshots, did you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And in the morning of the 12th of July while you were in Potocari,

21 there were no gunshots?

22 A. Yes. Gunshots could be heard in the surrounding hills. Few and

23 far between, and they were far away from us.

24 Q. You said yesterday on page 38 of the transcript that you were able

25 to see that your family was going onto the buses. Is it right to say that

Page 17384

1 your family was very well evacuated and they arrived on the territory that

2 was under the control of the ABiH?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. My colleague asked you some questions regarding men, and you told

5 him that before you arrived to the buses you had not seen if men were

6 beaten. I just wanted to clarify something. After you were separated you

7 did not also see if these men that got separated were beaten up?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You were talking yesterday about an officer who came to speak to

10 you while you were in that house in Potocari. You also told us that that

11 man asked you why you chose Alija Izetbegovic instead of following

12 Fikret Abdic. That was yesterday on page 40 of the transcript.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And Fikret Abdic is a Muslim, a Bosnian Muslim; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And he was a political opponent of Alija Izetbegovic; is that

17 right?

18 A. I don't know about that. Later on that's the way it turned out to

19 be.

20 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about Bratunac. When you

21 arrived in that hangar in Bratunac, you were amongst the first group that

22 went into the hangar. And when you went inside the hangar, where were

23 you? Were you at the end of the hangar or were you near the door?

24 A. I was on the left-hand side, left of the entrance door. Perhaps a

25 few metres away from the door on the left-hand side.

Page 17385

1 Q. And when new groups arrived in that hangar were you pushed towards

2 the -- the end, towards the -- towards the wall of the hangar?

3 A. Not me. It was those in the middle. I remained by the wall on

4 the left-hand side.

5 Q. And from where you were standing were you able to see the door?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You told us yesterday that approximately 40 men were chosen during

8 the night. It was on page 48 of the transcript. And you also told us

9 that you did not count. How did you come to that figure of 40 people?

10 A. Well, roughly. I always said that I never did any counting. I

11 just guess it was about 40.

12 Q. You said yesterday on page 49 that one of the men that was

13 selected was Ibran Papic -- Tabic.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter isn't sure that she heard the name

15 correctly.

16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

17 Q. To make sure that the name is correctly written on the transcript

18 on page 14 it's Ibran, I-b-r-a-n, Mustafic, M-u-s-t-a-p-i-c [as

19 interpreted].

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Thank you very much. You've also told us that Ibran Mustafic had

22 not come back to the hangar.

23 A. He didn't.

24 Q. Do you remember when you gave your first statement to the Bosnian

25 authorities on the 21st of July, 1995, you said that Ibran Mustafic had

Page 17386

1 been killed with a blunt object.

2 A. I don't remember having said that. I remember I said that they

3 quarrelled fiercely and then it all went quiet and he didn't come back.

4 And then they asked me, "What do you think happened to him?" And I said

5 that I think that the same thing happened to him that had happened to the

6 other one. That is what my assumption was because he never came back.

7 I just mentioned two cases that I knew of, how these people had

8 been killed. Some were killed -- were hit with blunt objects. Others --

9 well, some people were heard -- or, rather, their beatings were heard, and

10 others were not. So I just know of two particular cases how these people

11 were killed.

12 Q. Could the witness be shown -- could the witness be shown 1D439.

13 It's the statement of the 21st of July, 1995, given to the Bosnian

14 authorities.

15 Could the witness be shown page 2, please.

16 Sir, I know that it's not easy for you to read, so I'm going to

17 read you this passage in English, and it will be translated to you into

18 B/C/S.

19 You stated the following: [In English] "Ibran Mustafic, son of

20 Mujo, from Potocari former head of Srebrenica municipality, who was killed

21 with a blunt object."

22 [Interpretation] You were talking about those two people,

23 Ibran Mustafic was one of these two people that you mentioned.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But, sir, in this statement you mentioned, didn't you, Ahmet --

Page 17387

1 Hamed Efendic and Ibran Mustafic. Now, when we're talking about

2 Ibran Mustafic, he's still alive, isn't he?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And regard to these other men, the other 40 men that you had seen,

5 you did not witness any executions regarding those men?

6 A. I just saw how one of them was killed.

7 Q. And can you tell me when did you see that man that was killed?

8 A. The next morning when they told us that we could use one

9 particular room as a toilet, we got out of that gym, went right to the

10 toilet, and to the left-hand side they were taking people who were being

11 singled out and killed. And then they told us that we shouldn't look

12 left, that we should only look right.

13 As I went out to go to the toilet and as I went back, from the

14 column that was going to the toilet they took one man by shoulder and

15 said, "You come here." Then I looked, and on one side it was either three

16 or four men standing there, Serb soldiers, that is, and on the other side

17 I think two. In front of them there was this one man with an automatic

18 rifle facing the door of the warehouse, and he was shouting to this man.

19 He said, "Come to me. Come to me." He walked between those soldiers,

20 went towards the man with the automatic rifle, the one holding the

21 automatic rifle. The one on the left-hand side hit him with an iron bar

22 in the chest. He fell. The other one from the left-hand side hit him on

23 the back with an axe. He fell on his belly and he was hit by this axe.

24 He couldn't get the axe out or -- he couldn't get the axe out. And that's

25 when I went back to the warehouse.

Page 17388

1 Q. Thank you. Sir, that was the next day, but during the night you

2 didn't see anybody get killed?

3 A. I just heard Hamed Efendic when three or four bullets were fired

4 and somebody out there said, "He's done in. Drag him away."

5 Q. My question -- sir, my question was to know if you see if somebody

6 got killed during the night from the 12th to the 13th of July, 1995.

7 A. I did not see anything, but I heard the screams and moans and

8 realised that people were being killed. I heard it.

9 Q. And you also said that Ibran Mustafic was killed. Is that right?

10 A. I assumed that, because no one came back alive.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I object to the question. I think that first

13 it's been asked and answered. Second, counsel is implying that that is

14 the only statement that the witness has made regarding that particular

15 person, and I don't -- it is not, and for that reason I think that the

16 question is inappropriate and also the inference that she's implying is

17 inappropriate.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, do you wish to comment on that? Or

19 move to your next question.

20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, in fact, sir, Your Honour, it

21 is not the only declaration. I know there were a few statements, rather,

22 and this was in the first statement, and rather I think that it would be

23 more appropriate to continue this discussion either in the absence of the

24 witness or if I would be allowed to just put my questions.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead with your next question, please.

Page 17389

1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Sir, is it right to say that in fact you thought that these men

3 were killed because they never came back to the hangar?

4 A. Yes, you can say that. That's why I assumed that Ibran Mustafic

5 had been killed, because he did not come back.

6 Q. And also this goes for the same other 40 men. You thought that

7 they were killed because they never came back?

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 Q. You said yesterday that you thought that you arrived on the

10 territory under the control of the ABiH on the 19th of July --

11 JUDGE PROST: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but there's no

12 interpretation of his answer.

13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

14 Q. Sir, I will repeat the question, because your answer was not put

15 down in the transcript.

16 Is it right to say that in fact you said that these 40 men were

17 killed because they never came back to the hangar? That's why you think

18 so.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You said yesterday that you arrived on the territory under the

21 control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 19th of July, 1995?

22 A. As far as I remember, yes, but the first statement would be

23 correct if I'm making a mistake now.

24 Q. And in fact, in your statement of the 25th of July, you said that

25 you got there on the 20th of July.

Page 17390

1 A. Well, look, that's what I'm saying. I always say that. I could

2 not be sure of the time. At any rate, I got there.

3 Q. Very well. But you gave your first statement to the Bosnian

4 authorities on the 21st of July, 1995. Is that right?

5 A. I don't remember. Possibly. I'm not saying.

6 Q. In any case, it was not long after your arrival on the territory

7 controlled by the Bosnian authorities. Can we say that when you made that

8 first statement that you were in a state of shock?

9 A. Well, most probably I was not quite myself then.

10 Q. And during this first interview you talked about the events the

11 way you think they occurred?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in fact, after that every time you gave a subsequent statement

14 you were always shown the first statement. Is that right?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And when you arrived here to testify - I think that that was on

17 the 30th of October - you had a meeting with someone from the OTP and they

18 showed you your prior statements; is that right?

19 A. I cannot remember. It's been a long time.

20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would have

21 approximately five more minutes. I don't know if you would like me to

22 finish now or to take the break.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not the last one to cross-examine the

24 witness, so we might take the break now, 25 minutes. It will also give

25 the gentleman a well-deserved rest.

Page 17391

1 You will have 25 minutes. Do you think that is enough for you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's enough.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

4 MR. JOSSE: There won't be any further cross-examination unless my

5 friend Mr. Sarapa has any questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Sarapa, are you -- will you be

7 cross-examining the witness?

8 MR. SARAPA: No, I don't intend to ask him anything.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you have any re-examination, Mr. Vanderpuye?

10 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, I don't, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I suggest we go on for the next five minutes,

12 but I want to make sure that everyone is in agreement. Yes, okay.

13 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

14 Sir, look at me. Look at me.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm looking at you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not going to have the 25-minute break now.

17 We are going to continue for another five minutes with further questions,

18 and then I'm going to give you a much longer break, because you can go

19 back home straight away.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm -- great.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Fauveau.

22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like

23 the witness to be shown Exhibit 5D483.

24 Q. It's a statement in English, and I'll read the relevant portions

25 out to you.

Page 17392

1 This is information that derives from a meeting you had with the

2 OTP, and what we can see here is that you were provided copies of your

3 prior statements, a statement you made to the OTP on the 12th of August,

4 1995; another statement you made to the police of Bosnia and Herzegovina

5 on the 21st of July, 1995; another one you made to the police on the 25th

6 of July, 1995; another statement you made to the OTP on the 7th of July,

7 1996; and finally, your transcript of -- the transcript of your testimony

8 in the Karadzic and Mladic case on the 4th of July, 1996. And then you

9 stated that these statements were correct, substantively correct.

10 Do you remember stating that three days ago, on the 30th of

11 October, 2007, last Tuesday? Do you remember saying that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Witness, 12 years have elapsed since these events. Could we say

14 when you testify here today you testify on the basis of your prior

15 statements rather than the basis of your recollection of these events

16 today?

17 A. Yesterday, I pointed out that I cannot remember time periods in

18 terms of what happened when, but I remember very well in my heart what it

19 was that happened. Not at what time it happened, what kind of atrocious

20 crime was committed against us innocent people, including myself,

21 disabled. That I will never forget. I would rather forget my own name

22 but not that.

23 Q. Very well. Could you tell me how you found out and why you stated

24 that Ibran Mustafic had been killed by a blunt object? You stated that on

25 the 21st of July, 1995, to the Bosnian police.

Page 17393

1 A. They were asking me whether he was killed with a firearm. I said

2 no. What was he killed with? Well, he didn't come back and then I said

3 most probably with a blunt object since I didn't hear how it was that he

4 had been killed. He didn't come back. So then according to these other

5 assumptions, well, what happened to those other men -- if you were to give

6 me some other names of other people who survived from there, I'd really

7 like that.

8 Q. Do you acknowledge today that the statements you made about this

9 particular person were not truthful?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

11 Sir. Sir, can you remove your headphones, please.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I object to the question as to the

15 characterisation of the statement. I don't know if it's a translation

16 error and there's a difference between the statement being accurate and

17 the statement being truthful, and I don't think counsel has established

18 the necessary foundation to pose the question, and I don't think it's a

19 proper question as it's been presented to the witness.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: This time I wasn't following Madam Fauveau in

21 French, so I can't tell you whether had -- what word she used and whether

22 that interpretation is correct or not, but of course there is a big

23 difference between a statement being accurate and another one being

24 truthful or untruthful.

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, there is no translation error.

Page 17394

1 I used word "truthful." "Veridique" in French.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think in that case the question's already been

4 asked and answered. She's posed it. I can't see the entire transcript

5 from here, but I think maybe two pages up. He was asked specifically the

6 circumstances under which he made the statement and he answered the

7 question. He said he presumed that the person had been killed based upon

8 the fact that he didn't come back, and based upon the fact that he heard

9 moaning and -- and other sounds of -- of injury.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think we are talking

12 about different things. I'm mentioning the first statement. In the first

13 statement there are no hypothesis. The witness states that Mr. Mustafic

14 was killed, even describes the killing. So now I'm asking him a question.

15 I'm asking him whether he recognises or whether acknowledges that part of

16 his statement was not truthful.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But again, "truthful" is -- I want to make sure that

18 we are on the same wavelength here, that "truthful" has a connotation of

19 an intent and a determination not to speak out the truth, not to tell the

20 truth. This is why I made the distinction before between whether it is a

21 correct statement, whether it is accurate, or whether it is truthful.

22 That's a completely different matter.

23 You're suggesting -- as it is, you're suggesting to the witness

24 that he deliberately lied. I think -- one moment.

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm not suggesting that he

Page 17395

1 deliberately lied.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's hear what you have to say, and then

5 we'll decide, Madam Fauveau.

6 No. She was -- I stopped her.

7 Oh, okay. You're not suggesting that he deliberately lied. I

8 hadn't noticed that because I was -- all right. Then put the question,

9 please. And I would suggest in putting the question that you make it

10 clear to him that you're not imputing any malice on his part in

11 withholding or twisting the truth.

12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Sir, do you recognise today that the statement you made on the

14 21st of July, 1995, regarding Ibran Mustafic does not correspond to the

15 truth, does not reflect the truth?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, madam.

19 You're still without re-examination?

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Kwon, do you have ...? Judge Prost? I don't

22 have any questions either.

23 Before the gentleman leaves the courtroom, I forgot again this

24 morning to confirm that we are sitting today being a Friday pursuant to

25 Rule 15 bis because Judge Stole couldn't be with us and that has a

Page 17396

1 retroactive effect from the beginning of the sitting.

2 Sir, you've lasted much less than many other witnesses that have

3 come here. We're finished with your testimony, which means that you are

4 free to go. However, you will -- when you leave the courtroom, you are

5 going to be assisted by our staff who will facilitate your return back

6 home.

7 On behalf of my colleagues and also on behalf of the Tribunal, I

8 would like to thank you very much for having come over to give testimony

9 on these events, and on behalf of everyone, I wish you a safe journey back

10 home.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And may you be well,

12 too, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir.

14 Now we will have the break. Then you need to tell me what's going

15 to happen now. Before the break I would like to know what's going to

16 happen afterwards.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we have -- Mr. Blaszczyk is ready

18 to testify.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. No, no, because our intention was certainly

20 not to waste the rest of the morning, so I'm glad you have talked about

21 Mr. -- filling the gap.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, he's here.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.14 a.m.

Page 17397

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. We have 65 ter --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me follow you from my list, please.

4 Yes.

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: We have 65 ter 1693, 1698, 1707, and P02932.

6 That's under seal. It's the pseudonym sheet.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections? All right. The last one will

8 remain under seal. And the rest, there being no objections, will be

9 admitted.

10 The Nikolic Defence team.

11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Just one

12 document. P1705 that was shown to the witness, because 1706 has already

13 been admitted into evidence.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections?

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: There's no objection, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So it is admitted.

17 Borovcanin Defence team.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one exhibit. That's

19 4D IC186. That's the photograph that was marked.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Any objections?

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document is so admitted. Madam Nikolic, to

23 come back to you.

24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, sorry, I inversed the numbers.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Although you stated that 1706 has already been

Page 17398

1 admitted, I'm informed that it hasn't. So you --

2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I wanted the reverse. 1705 has

3 already been admitted into evidence, and I want to tender 1706. I'm

4 sorry, I was wrong about the numbers.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. That's what I was saying. So 1706 is

6 being admitted, and her request for the admission of 1705 is dropped, and

7 therefore the previous ruling that 1705 was being admitted becomes moot

8 and is also reversed.

9 Okay. Now, I told you in the beginning of the sitting that we

10 would proceed first with the testimony of the previous witness and that

11 we'll come to the preliminaries afterwards.

12 Are there any preliminaries? Yes, Mr. McCloskey. And decide

13 whether we stay in open session or we go into private session.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can be in open session for this.

15 Mr. President, as you are, I think, aware, about two weeks ago we

16 had a proofing session with Momir Nikolic. Julian Nicholls met with him.

17 And from that proofing session it has arisen that Momir Nikolic has become

18 adverse to the Prosecution's case. He made statements at that proofing

19 session that we don't believe are credible and in reviewing his overall

20 situation we have decided on balance to withdraw him as a witness.

21 I've been mentioning that to Defence counsel.

22 Now, of course should you be interested in hearing from

23 Momir Nikolic, we will -- we are certainly able and willing to call him

24 and lead him should you decide you would like to hear from him, but on

25 balance we have decided that -- that he does not -- is not necessary for

Page 17399

1 the Prosecution's case.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Having got accustomed to us, I can imagine that you

3 can imagine our enthusiasm for that.

4 Anyway, thank you for the information, which leads to the first

5 conclusion, basically, and that is the Beara confidential motion, which

6 doesn't need to remain confidential at this stage requesting disclosure of

7 Momir Nikolic's personal notes, that becomes moot once he's not coming

8 over to give testimony.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. My question, of course, was directed to

11 you, Mr. Ostojic, in particular, whether you consider this motion of yours

12 moot now that the Prosecution does not intend to bring forward this

13 witness although that has to be blessed by us before it becomes final.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning and thank you, Mr. President. I don't

15 believe that it's moot; I think the Court should still grant my request on

16 the motion and I also would like to inquire further on the comments made

17 by my learned friend. He makes three specific comments: One, that the

18 testimony of Mr. Momir Nikolic seems, according to him, to be adverse.

19 I'd like for him to expand on that for me; also, he concludes for some

20 reason without any basis that he believes the testimony now is "not

21 credible" or "we don't believe it's credible"; and then three, he says

22 doesn't think it's necessary for the OTP's case. So I would like, if

23 possible, for the Prosecution to elaborate on that so we could get a

24 better feel for it.

25 Specifically with respect to the notes, I would just urge the

Page 17400

1 Court to look at Rule 68 and I think those notes were requested because

2 Mr. Nikolic made them immediately upon his arrest and after his arrest.

3 And I think given the information sheet that we did receive we would like

4 to see what the basis of some of his defence was and what he may have

5 relied on, we think it may lead to some exculpatory information. We don't

6 know that, but I think because it is a document or documents that may

7 provide some discoverable material that the Court should with all due

8 respect order Mr. Nikolic to turn those documents over.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But you agree that these documents are not at

10 the disposal of the Prosecution, don't you.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: I recognise that, Your Honour, yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not requesting the Court to compel the

14 Prosecution to turn them over; I'm asking the Court to enter an order like

15 you have in the past with other witnesses which you have that power and

16 discretion to do and order those witnesses to produce those relevant

17 documents.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, when they were testifying and making use of

19 them here. Yes, but anyway, I'll refer the first part of your

20 intervention to Mr. McCloskey for any remarks he may wish to make.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. -- we still speak to Mr. Nikolic, and if

22 there's any -- if there's an order about the notes we'll help to

23 facilitate them, and it hasn't -- communication has not broken down. I'm

24 not saying that.

25 The -- one of the statements that Mr. Nicholls took, as I recall

Page 17401

1 it, Momir Nikolic made a statement about why he turned his -- changed his

2 statement about the Kravica warehouse and he had an explanation for that

3 which we did not find as credible. And that was something that was -- it

4 was significant that we don't find as credible. That is one of the main

5 points, but that in balance, we thought that overall his testimony would

6 not be necessary for this -- for this prosecution, and that in balancing

7 the probative value of his testimony, we didn't feel it was necessary.

8 It's as simple as that. I mean, I can go into factual details about how

9 I think we've proven his -- some of the information he would testify

10 through other witnesses, but I don't think anyone wants to hear that. And

11 I can, of course, explain in more detail if you're interested, but that's

12 obviously the Prosecution's business as well.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

14 I need to confer with my colleagues.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we have discussed on this. There's

17 nothing that we need to say or we have to say about your decision to

18 withdraw your witness, Mr. McCloskey. That's your decision.

19 As for the Beara confidential motion, you have no objection that

20 we deal with it in open session now at this stage or do you wish to go in

21 private session, Mr. Ostojic?

22 MR. OSTOJIC: I do not, Your Honour. I was just out of an

23 abundance of caution because I wasn't sure if he was going to ask for a

24 pseudonym or any protective measures. We filed it in that vein.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: At this point, actually, we had come prepared

Page 17402

1 already to dispose of this motion not knowing that this witness was being

2 withdrawn by the Prosecution.

3 We agree with you that it is not necessarily moot, because this

4 witness can eventually be called either by yourselves or by us. So we are

5 deciding the motion now orally.

6 On the 28th of October, the Beara Defence team filed

7 confidentially an expedited motion requesting the Trial Chamber to issue a

8 subpoena duces tecum in relation to would be then witness Momir Nikolic,

9 expedited because of the anticipated proximity of his testimony here. On

10 the 31st of October the Prosecution filed a response confidentially upon

11 our request to do so expeditiously. The Trial Chamber has gone through

12 these two filings and accepts fully the arguments provided by the

13 Prosecution in their response on the basis of which we consider the Beara

14 motion to be without merit. The motion itself provides no basis in the

15 Rules of Procedure and Evidence or the jurisprudence of this Tribunal for

16 the relief sought. Accordingly, we are hereby dismissing the motion.

17 Let's decide also another oral motion that was raised yesterday,

18 but before we do so, since we're talking of the testimony of

19 General Smith, and it may also be relevant to the testimony of the

20 Canadian, Guy Fortin, Mr. Fortin, we had invited you, Mr. McCloskey, to

21 sit together with Madam Fauveau and to try to conclude the issue relating

22 to the -- her motion on behalf of her client, General Miletic for the

23 complete disclosure to the Defence of all UNPROFOR documents relevant to

24 the present case. I also asked you a couple of days ago whether there had

25 been some development, and I got the impression that although there had

Page 17403

1 been, searches were still ongoing. So if you could both update the Trial

2 Chamber on that, please, first.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, and -- there are two subjects to

4 that, and as Mr. Thayer, I think, has the most up to date and thorough

5 knowledge on that, I would turn the floor over to him.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Thayer. Don't worry. I'll watch

7 you on the monitor. I can't see you behind the column.

8 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

9 Honours, good morning everyone. We are in a position to update the

10 Chamber on those issues. There are a couple of related issues to these

11 witnesses in addition to the specific request enumerated in

12 Madam Fauveau's motion. I'll start with that first.

13 What we have been doing is conducting multiple database searches

14 using key words and date ranges based on her requests. The requests are

15 very, very broad, so it's taken some time to respond to them. In some

16 respects they are almost too broad to respond to, but what we've done is

17 done our best to isolate what we can. What that has resulted in is a

18 batch of documents that we are in the process of reviewing and sending for

19 Rule 70 clearance. Because the request pertains to UN documents,

20 naturally the -- virtually all of them have fallen within UN -- various UN

21 archives and are thus protected under Rule 70 by those various providers

22 be it the ICFY, the International Commission for the former Yugoslavia or

23 another Geneva-based archive or yet another UN-based entity.

24 So what we have done is we have kicked out a corpus of documents

25 which we believe are broadly responsive to that very broad request of

Page 17404

1 Madam Fauveau. We are in the process of submitting those for Rule 70

2 clearance to the UN. I cannot provide really any useful estimate as to

3 how long it's going to take the UN to clear these documents. The only

4 thing I can tell the Court is based on my recent experience in trying to

5 get the Fortin diary cleared and the 11 documents which I think you heard

6 discussion of last week plus one other additional document, the process of

7 having these documents cleared in the immediate future are pretty slim.

8 However, we will do our best to bring whatever pressure we can to bear to

9 get those cleared as soon as we can.

10 That said, there is smaller group of documents which I just

11 finished reviewing this morning which have already been cleared which we

12 will be in a position to disclose to Defence counsel, I would say, by

13 sometime this afternoon. Those again are, we believe, broadly responsive

14 to the very broad request of Madam Fauveau, and we will get that burned

15 onto CDs and placed in the lockers, hopefully, by the close of business

16 today.

17 I think that's as much as I can say with respect to -- to the

18 motion. Again, the Fortin diary has been cleared for use by the UN with

19 certain restrictions that I've alerted my friends to earlier in the week,

20 that being that we keep the information contained in the diary in private

21 session, we treat and maintain the confidentiality of that information,

22 but in all other respects the diary can be used.

23 We are in the process of finding out exactly what has happened

24 with these 11 documents plus the one other document that was submitted

25 some time ago. I will have an update later on today. I have been told

Page 17405

1 that the most difficult level of clearance has been achieved for those

2 documents and we are awaiting a subsequent level of clearance.

3 That's about as much, I think, as I can tell Your Honours at this

4 stage.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. As regards Madam Fauveau, if you wish to

6 comment after having heard that, in particular I think the Fortin

7 testimony comes later, and we still have some time left. But

8 General Smith will be here soon. It's true that he will be testifying in

9 two separate stages. So we would like to know what your position is.

10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, indeed, yesterday

11 and the day before yesterday we received a number of documents related to

12 General Smith. Having said that, the Prosecutor also told us that these

13 documents are not relevant to my motion and that they would have been

14 disclosed in any case without my motion.

15 I do not believe that my motion is broad in nature, because the

16 documents I'm requesting only refer to General Smith, and they are

17 documents received by General Smith or drafted by General Smith. I may

18 understand that the Prosecutor has problems where the -- General Smith was

19 one of the addressees of the documents. I do not believe that my request

20 for the documents produced by General Smith during the relevant period can

21 come as a surprise to the Prosecutor, because even if these documents are

22 not directly linked to Zepa and Srebrenica, they are linked to what took

23 place in Bosnia. General Smith is partly an expert witness, and it is

24 common practice for the Prosecutor to disclose all the documents produced

25 by a witness and that the Prosecutor has at its disposal.

Page 17406

1 I know that my motion came late, so I do not want General Smith's

2 testimony to be delayed, but still I would like to keep the possibility of

3 having an additional day for further cross-examination that might prove

4 necessary on the basis of the documents that might be disclosed later on.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. One question: Have these documents

6 ever been used in any other proceedings before this Tribunal?

7 Mr. Thayer.

8 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the -- the documents that I referred

9 to being kicked out by our searches conducted specifically with respect to

10 Madam Fauveau's request, as I understand it have never been used before.

11 Had they been used before, we would have expected to have seen that they'd

12 been cleared before.

13 One part of our process during these searches has been to compare

14 them against all of our known disclosure lists to see whether in fact that

15 was the case, and none of these documents, with the exception of the

16 smaller group that I referred to which we hope to disclose today, have

17 been previously disclosed.

18 I think that's about as much as I'll say at this point.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And -- yes, Mr. Josse.

20 MR. JOSSE: Broadly speaking, I support what my learned friend,

21 Madam Fauveau has just said, Your Honour. Clearly if there are additional

22 pertinent documents that are yet to be disclosed, then they are likely, as

23 far as this area of the case is concerned, to impact upon General Smith.

24 They're very unlikely, frankly, only to impact upon Mr. Fortin. If they

25 relate to him, they're almost certainly bound to relate to General Smith

Page 17407

1 as well.

2 Secondly, and aside from that, I was actually discussing this with

3 Mr. Thayer at the last break. He had explained very helpfully in an

4 e-mail earlier this week the position so far as Mr. Fortin's diary is

5 concerned. At this present moment, I wish to reserve our position as to

6 whether we're going to argue whether that diary can and should only be

7 used in private session.

8 I'm only alerting the Court to that simply because he's mentioned

9 it, and therefore I don't want it to be thought that we're acceding to

10 that application at this stage. It's something I'll think about over the

11 next few days. I'm bound to say that that diary will almost certainly be

12 used, at least in part, in cross-examination of General Smith. So again

13 it's a matter of more immediate concern than simply Mr. Fortin.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Josse.

15 And one further question. Have any of these documents been used

16 by General Smith in any written report that has been made available?

17 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. The answer is absolutely not.

18 All of the specific documents which I furnished to General Smith or which

19 he requested in connection with the preparation of his expert statement

20 have been disclosed to Defence counsel previously. So they are -- they do

21 not form any basis for any of his expert opinion, which by this point or

22 at this point by virtue of the Chamber's decision is a very narrow area;

23 that is, simply the -- the history, importance, and operation of -- of the

24 Main Staff. So I do not intend to be showing him many documents, if at

25 all, during the course of that expert testimony, because it is, I don't

Page 17408

1 believe, going to be useful necessarily to show him all the other

2 documents that I had discussed with him in connection with the other

3 proposed areas of his expertise.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, and that's good to know that at

5 least the Fortin diary has to an extent been cleared already.

6 When was the request to the UN as regards the rest of the

7 documents communicated? I'm asking this for one simple reason, so that if

8 we as a Chamber can through our channels accelerate the process, we'll try

9 to do so.

10 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, with respect to the -- there are 12

11 documents in total. There was one document that was submitted along with

12 the Fortin diary. That was submitted October 1. And we fully expect all

13 of these documents to be cleared by the end of today.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. All right.

15 MR. THAYER: With respect to the 11 documents that were kicked out

16 during the course of some recent reviews in connection with General Smith,

17 those were submitted last -- either last week or the end of the week

18 before last week.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

20 So that disposes of that matter.

21 Yesterday, Mr. Josse, on behalf of the Defence team for

22 General Gvero orally sought an order from the Trial Chamber with a view to

23 barring the Prosecution from questioning the upcoming witness

24 General Rupert Smith on the particular issue raised for the first time by

25 him, that's by General Smith, in his recent proofing session with the

Page 17409

1 Prosecution.

2 The Trial Chamber having heard the submissions of the Defence team

3 for General Gvero and the Prosecution on the matter has considered same

4 and has come to the conclusion that it is not prepared -- cannot grant the

5 order sought.

6 The essence of the Defence complaint is that the disclosure of

7 this information at this late stage is highly prejudicial to the Defence

8 for the reasons outlined in the oral argument yesterday by Mr. Josse. In

9 this instance, the late disclosure arises from the fact that the witness,

10 General Smith, only recently made this statement and had never made it on

11 any previous occasion. It is not a case of non-disclosure by the

12 Prosecution therefore.

13 In these circumstances, we see no basis at law for prohibiting the

14 Prosecution from adducing the evidence from the witness.

15 As to any resulting prejudice, the Defence will have an

16 opportunity to fully cross-examine General Smith. And as his evidence

17 will be given, as I stated earlier, on more than one occasion, they will

18 have adequate time, in our opinion, to prepare for that cross-examination.

19 In addition, if as argued yesterday by Mr. Josse that the Gvero

20 Defence team feels that there is need to recall witnesses on the issue,

21 they can make an ad hoc application to the Trial Chamber in due course and

22 that will receive our due attention.

23 Any other preliminary matters? Yes, Mr. Thayer.

24 MR. THAYER: Just briefly, Mr. President. It may be helpful to

25 throw out the names of the witnesses who we plan to call in lieu of --

Page 17412

1 was -- anyway, you know what the reason for that was. I don't need to

2 repeat that. Things have changed now. We will not go back on our

3 decision to grant you the break, because that wouldn't make sense at this

4 point in time. But what we would like to know is now when do you expect

5 the Prosecution case to finish? Because obviously we -- we have one or

6 two witnesses not testifying, and they were not -- they were witnesses

7 that were going to engage us for a considerable length of time.

8 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could take a look at the calendar and the

10 witnesses, I think we'll give you a more reasonable answer.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What I meant -- I didn't mean for you to do

12 the exercise now. I would prefer, in fact, to have again something like

13 this, say Monday you will have time to go through the list, but we would

14 appreciate to have that. And we would also appreciate to both of you,

15 both sides, to come back to us with a view to having the oral submissions

16 on the Rule 98 et al. matters as early as possible. We would need to find

17 a slot to give you the opportunity to discuss this in open session and

18 also exchange views with us.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I have managed to have some discussions

20 already, but -- on that topic, but we'll continue to have discussions.

21 There has been some interest in partially submitting some written

22 material. We're also discussing who goes first, and I will have to look

23 at the law on that. I think Trial Chambers have -- have looked at that

24 differently, but we all -- we will get together on those and inform you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We just wait. We just wait.

Page 17413

1 Yes. All right. So please come back with an updated estimate of

2 the duration of the rest of your case, and then -- yes, Mr. Josse.

3 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I don't want to confuse things or stray

4 into an area that doesn't necessarily concern the Defence, but Your Honour

5 said at line -- at page 56, line 24, that you wanted an answer from the

6 Prosecution now that Dragan Jokic is not testifying. In his response, my

7 learned friend Mr. Thayer, kept and twice referred to fitting Dragan Jokic

8 into the schedule. I'm slightly confused about that. But it maybe the

9 matter remains unresolved. I appreciate that for the most part it's a

10 matter that simply doesn't involve any of the eight parties to this case.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That certainly doesn't involve any of

12 the parties in this case.

13 Yes. Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. Thayer?

14 MR. THAYER: I simply imagine, Mr. President, that one way or the

15 other Mr. Jokic would be brought back whether it was with everybody

16 present or not, but that we would have to accommodate that at some point.

17 But if that is an entirely in a different courtroom, different time of the

18 day, then we'll take that into account --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Okay. That --

20 MR. THAYER: -- when we're rescheduling our calendar.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That is clearer. What he meant is that

22 time will be consumed in dealing with the contempt proceedings, and in his

23 opinion that would have an effect on these proceedings. Yes. Okay.

24 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Gap-filler.

Page 17414

1 [The witness entered court]

2 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have an hour and 32

5 minutes before the end of the session, and I do not believe that the

6 Defence will be able to finish today if we start the cross-examination

7 today. Since this is an investigator from the OTP who will not come and

8 testify back on Monday, and we also do not know when he is coming back,

9 and since we are talking about an investigator who will be talking about

10 some documents and he does deal with these documents within his work, I

11 would like to ask you to give us the possibility to cross-examine at

12 another point, at a later stage.

13 I do not put in cause the goodwill of the investigator because I

14 have a great respect for him, but I think that in the course of his work

15 he does have the opportunity to see documents, and he can also see

16 documents that are part of the documents that we wish to use in the

17 cross-examination, so this is why I think that the cross-examination be

18 done in one shot at another time.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I've spoken to my colleague about that

21 and told her I would be objecting to that -- to that suggestion. First of

22 all, this witness has been scheduled before many times, Mr. Blaszczyk.

23 They've had the documents for a long time, and so I think they should be

24 ready to start their cross today.

25 I'm -- I'm going to be, I hope, very brief, less than an hour, so

Page 17415

1 there will be time to start their cross.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But I want to make sure that you know

3 what you're saying, because you said about an hour. We have got just 33

4 minutes for the next break, so that's half an hour. Then there will be

5 the break. You will take another 30 minutes after that, which would leave

6 us with 15 minutes, and you're saying that you expect all

7 cross-examinations to be concluded in 15 minutes?

8 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honours. And I think that if all goes

9 well, I've cut my direct down, I may be able to finish in around 30

10 minutes, 40 minutes, in which case there would be enough for somebody to

11 start their cross-examination.

12 The other point I would like to make is that this investigator is

13 a key investigator. We will need to talk with him. And it may be -- it

14 may be that there's a Drina Corps document that I have to talk to him --

15 that one of us needs to talk to him about, and that's another issue.

16 The Defence estimate is four hours on cross. I cannot -- maybe it

17 will be, but I cannot imagine that it will take that long, and so my

18 preference would be that the cross-examination start, go as far as it

19 can. And I've talked to Mr. Thayer; if necessary, we can go into Monday

20 morning if there is not too much left over.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And what about Rupert Smith, General Smith?

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, then he would perhaps start an hour into

23 Monday morning if necessary. And of course we will -- I will do whatever

24 the Court wishes. That's just my position.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 17416

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to start with the witness's testimony,

2 and then we'll come to a decision when you finish with your

3 examination-in-chief.

4 Good morning to you, Mr. Blaszczyk.

5 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We wish to thank you for your patience. I don't

7 want you to think that the Trial Chamber has been playing yo-yo with you,

8 but we've had you on the list. One day you're coming, the next day we're

9 told you're not. You've also earned the nickname of a gap-filler, so I

10 hope we will be able to clear that by your testimony which we are going to

11 start pretty soon.

12 Madam Usher is going to hand you the text of the solemn

13 declaration with which you are familiar. Please read it out aloud and

14 that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Sir, please make yourself comfortable.

18 Mr. Nicholls will see you through his direct.

19 Mr. Nicholls.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

22 Q. Good afternoon. Could you please tell us your full name?

23 A. My name is Tomasz Blaszczyk. Tomasz Blaszczyk.

24 Q. And you are currently employed with the OTP?

25 A. Yes. I'm investigator for the OTP.

Page 17417

1 Q. Very briefly, could you tell us your career in law enforcement up

2 to your employment here with the OTP and when you began your employment

3 with the OTP.

4 A. Back home in Poland I was Polish officer. I began my work with

5 the police in 1981 as uniformed police officers -- officer, and after

6 graduated police academy in 1986, I became an instructor. And I used to

7 work as instructor until 1989, and since 1989 I used to work in criminal

8 department in my region, region of Dojsk [phoen]. At the beginning I used

9 to work in rapid reaction team and I moved to investigation and operation

10 section.

11 In 1998, 1999, I moved to drug investigation unit, and then to

12 another unit, central investigation bureau which emerged from drug

13 investigation unit and crime investigation unit. During my work with the

14 police I was deployed three times to Bosnia as international police task

15 officer.

16 Q. During any of that -- that prior law enforcement experience in

17 Poland, did you ever have to testify?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Okay. Now, just very briefly, when were you working in Bosnia?

20 Can you just tell us which dates you worked in Bosnia and what you were

21 doing, very briefly?

22 A. First time I was shortly in Bosnia it was 1992. At that time

23 mostly I was deployed to former Krajina or so-called Krajina in Croatia,

24 and about two, three weeks in Bosnia, and three times I was deployed in

25 Bosnia. First time in 1996, then 1998 and 2001, 2002.

Page 17418

1 Q. And that was with IPTF those last times?

2 A. Yes. These three times I was deployed as IPTF officer.

3 Q. And again very briefly, what was the purpose or what were your

4 duties with the IPTF?

5 A. The IPTF was a part of United Nations mission in

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The IPTF was involved in training, certificating,

7 monitoring the activity of the local police.

8 Q. When did you begin working with the OTP?

9 A. I started to work with OTP it was January 2003.

10 Q. And briefly which -- which investigations have been your focus of

11 your work here?

12 A. Most of the times, almost since the beginning I have been attached

13 to Srebrenica investigation, and except few months in 2000 -- at the end

14 of 2005 when I was deployed temporarily to Haradinaj case.

15 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you now some questions about this big

16 collection of documents which is referred to as the Drina Corps

17 collection.

18 First of all, are you familiar -- you don't need to explain the

19 whole process now, but are you familiar with the process by which the OTP

20 came into possession of this collection?

21 A. Yes, I am.

22 Q. Okay. And do you recall just roughly the ERN range of the Drina

23 Corps collection?

24 A. Yes, I do. It is -- the ERN range for this collection started

25 from 0425 onwards, about 350.000 pages.

Page 17419

1 Q. When did you personally first hear that this document collection

2 was in the possession of the OTP?

3 A. I don't recall the exact date, but it was sometime in the middle

4 of December 2004.

5 Q. And where was the Drina Corps collection of documents located when

6 you first heard that it was in our possession?

7 A. First time when I heard that, about this Drina collection, is when

8 the Drina collection was located already in IP -- sorry, ICTY office in

9 Banja Luka.

10 Q. And that's our field office there?

11 A. Field office, yeah.

12 Q. Now, how did you learn -- what were your sources of, how did you

13 learn about how this large collection of documents came into our

14 possession in the field office in Banja Luka in December 2004?

15 A. First I learn it from my management, this mean from my team leader

16 and the people who were working together with me and then from the

17 investigator on the field, investigator from the field office in Banja

18 Luka.

19 Q. And what's the name of that investigator who you spoke to?

20 A. Finn Tollefsen.

21 Q. Now, briefly we'll go over some documents in a minute, but can you

22 briefly tell the Court how this collection of documents we call the Drina

23 Corps collection came to be delivered to the Banja Luka field office?

24 A. Authority of Republika Srpska, Bosnia-Herzegovina, received

25 information that this collection is located in military barracks in Serbia

Page 17420

1 and Montenegro, in the place called Gornji Mlanovac, military barracks of

2 the army of Serbia and Montenegro. And the Ministry of Defence of

3 Republika Srpska together with Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska

4 conducted action, joint action on the territory of Serbia and Montenegro

5 to collect and transfer these documents to Banja Luka.

6 Q. And if you know, from whom did the OTP learn that this archive had

7 been brought to the Republika Srpska?

8 A. Yes. The first time OTP received this information from the

9 liaison officer for the relation with ICTY Trifun Jovicic.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak slower, please.

11 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You got the message. Thank you.

13 MR. NICHOLLS:

14 Q. Now, Gornja Milanovac, you said, is where the -- where the

15 collection was located in the military barracks in Serbia. Can you tell

16 us -- I don't have a map. Can you tell us where that is in Serbia?

17 A. Yeah. The place is located about 100 kilometres south of

18 Belgrade.

19 Q. And how close is it to Mali Zvornik?

20 A. About -- I guess about 200 kilometres.

21 Q. And if you remember, do you remember the date in December when we

22 learned about this collection from Mr. Jovicic?

23 A. Yes. It was 9 of December, 2004.

24 Q. I'd now like to show you a series of documents and ask you just a

25 few questions about them. The first is 02810. It should appear on the

Page 17421

1 screen in front of you, and I have hard copies here if you need to look at

2 those.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, if there's no objection, may I give

4 the witness a list of the exhibits I plan to use with him? They're the

5 same ones that are on our list that was distributed a long time ago.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection? No objection. Please go ahead.

7 MR. NICHOLLS:

8 Q. Now, this first document - excuse me - is Republika Srpska

9 Ministry of Defence decision dated 8 December 2004. Briefly can you tell

10 us what this document is, what it's about?

11 A. Yeah. This is decision signed by Ministry of Defence of Republika

12 Srpska, Milovan Stankovic decision about appointing the commission for

13 taking over, sealing and handing over the archive material from the army

14 of Republika Srpska located in Serbia and Montenegro. And also in this

15 document we have the names of the people who were appointed as a

16 commission.

17 Q. And I think the document is fairly self-explanatory. I'll go to

18 the next one. 02811. It's on the screen now. This is from, again, the

19 8th of December, 2004, and this one from the General Staff of the VRS.

20 Can you -- same question for each of these. Can you tell us what

21 this document is and what it is about?

22 A. Yes. This is more or less the same document, the same contents of

23 the document but signed by the -- the head of General Staff of the army of

24 the Republika Srpska, General Major Novak Djukic.

25 Q. Now, the next document, 02812, again referring to the process of

Page 17422

1 retrieving this collection of documents. Again we're speaking of the 8th

2 of December, 2004. This will be another Republika Srpska Ministry of

3 Defence document. Decision, rather. Can you tell us about this document?

4 A. Yeah. This is a decision of the approval of the official trip

5 for -- for the member of the commission, actually for the head of the

6 commission Mirko Matic.

7 Q. Okay. If we could go to the next one, 02813. This is an 8

8 December 2004 record on the receiving of the archival material and

9 archival artefacts, another General Staff document. Now it's on the

10 screen. Can you tell us about this document, please?

11 A. Also this is the record prepared by the head of the commission

12 Colonel Mirko Matic. The document was prepared on the 8th of December,

13 2004, but was signed on 9 December 2004 by Mirko Matic, the two other

14 members of the commission, Dragan Radisic, Miljan Sisic, and also by the

15 member of the army of Serbia and Montenegro, Dragan Brcan.

16 Q. And we are can see here that the amount of -- well, the commission

17 received 16 wooden cases of material. Is that right?

18 A. Yeah, this is right. Actually, there were 16 boxes using for

19 explosive and ammunitions.

20 Q. 02806, please. This is the 10th of January, 2005, report from the

21 Ministry of the Interior. It should be on the screen in a minute.

22 This is a longer document with more detail, but can you just tell

23 us what this document is?

24 A. Yeah. This is letter supplied by the Republika Srpska ministry of

25 interior related to the provision of the [Indiscernible] Drina Corps

Page 17423

1 archive. The letter provide a summary of the events leading to the

2 Ministry of Interior taking possession of the Drina Corps archive.

3 Q. And does it also address how those documents came to be delivered

4 to the OTP field office?

5 A. Yes. That is information also how the document -- how the

6 collection was delivered to -- to the OTP office in Banja Luka.

7 Q. Next one, 02805, please, a very similar document in content. 20th

8 of December, 2004, from the Ministry of the Interior.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: I say, Your Honour, part of this document was

10 redacted because part of it had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with

11 this topic. That was disclosed to the Defence in an unredacted form, I

12 think. I'm not sure how that happened, but they've had it. But for this

13 purposes and in public I'm using the redacted version.

14 Q. Can you tell us what this document is, sir?

15 A. It's more or less the same contents as the previous document.

16 It's also consists information about circumstances of obtaining the Drina

17 Corps archive from the territory of Serbia and Montenegro and also

18 information how this archive ended up in OTP office in Banja Luka.

19 Q. And very briefly, the six documents we've just reviewed, how did

20 we come into possession of these documents, reports, decisions, orders

21 about the seizure and delivery of the Drina Corps collection of documents?

22 A. The two last documents we received from our request from the

23 authority of Ministry of Interior, from the Ministry of Interior of

24 Republika Srpska. The first four documents, they are documents received

25 from the witness who had been testified by OTP.

Page 17424

1 Q. Now, I want to switch now and ask you a couple questions about

2 your -- your personal involvement with processing the collection.

3 After first being told by management about the collection and

4 speaking to Finn Tollefsen from Banja Luka field office, where did you go?

5 What did you do?

6 A. I was ordered to go to Zagreb field office where the archive

7 supposed to arrived and make the initial assessment of this archive.

8 Q. Do you remember that date?

9 A. Yes, it was 17 of December, 2004.

10 Q. And what did you do, briefly, if you can describe what -- what the

11 process was of handling this large number of documents when they arrived

12 in our Zagreb field office.

13 A. I remember that the archive arrived to the Zagreb field office,

14 ICTY field office, the same day when I was there. I was already there,

15 actually. And it came with UN truck with the escort, with UN security

16 officer, and it came with 23 cardboard boxes.

17 Q. Okay. And -- now, so these -- we saw on the receipt there were 16

18 boxes delivered to the field office, and now you've said 23 boxes. Can

19 you explain that, why there's a different number of boxes arriving at

20 Zagreb?

21 A. Yeah. The first to the ICTY field office in Banja Luka there were

22 delivered 16 boxes, military boxes used for ammunition, explosive

23 materials, weapons, full of the documents, and in Banja Luka -- in the

24 Banja Luka field office the boxes were repacked to 23 cardboard boxes.

25 Q. Let me show you number 02808, and the one after that will be

Page 17425

1 02809, two photographs. They're not particularly interesting, but this is

2 a photograph of a big box. Can you tell us what this is?

3 A. Yeah, this is photograph of one the box -- one of the box used to

4 keeping the archive material.

5 Q. Okay. And this is one of the boxes that was received -- that they

6 were originally received in from the authorities in Republika Srpska, or

7 is this one of the 23 boxes?

8 A. No, this is one of the box which we received from the authority of

9 Republika Srpska in Banja Luka field office.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment.

11 Madam Fauveau.

12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the

13 witness should first answer the question that is did he ever see the

14 original boxes in which the documents arrived. I'm not sure the witness

15 was able to see the original boxes sent by the authorities of the

16 Republika Srpska.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau.

18 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: That question is two lines down but I can ask it

20 now. Did you take this photo? Did you see these boxes?

21 A. No. Personally, I never seen these boxes but I seen the photos

22 taken by our field office investigator in the Banja Luka field office.

23 Q. Thank you. And if we could have 02809 on the screen. Tell us

24 what's in this photo when it comes up.

25 A. This is another photo taken by investigator on the field office in

Page 17426

1 Banja Luka, Finn Tollefsen, and this depict also one of the box and full

2 of the documents.

3 Q. Okay. Now, were the boxes -- just to be very clear because we'll

4 get to the receipts in a minute, but when the box -- when this material,

5 all these documents, came to be transported from the Zagreb field office

6 here to The Hague, did they come in the same 23 boxes or were they

7 repacked again?

8 A. No. The boxes were again repacked into 55 and other smaller boxes

9 and then sent to The Hague.

10 Q. And just very briefly, what's the -- what was the point of

11 repacking these from 16 boxes to 23 to 55? Why was that done?

12 A. It was done for easier handling of this material because it was

13 weighed sometimes even more than 100 kilogrammes. It was very difficult

14 to handle it.

15 Q. Now, can you very, very briefly tell us about the process of how

16 the boxes arrived here in The Hague, how they came to be here?

17 A. After --

18 Q. When they arrived. Excuse me. I'm sorry.

19 A. Mm-hmm. The boxes were sent from the Zagreb field office on the

20 3rd of January 2005, and arrived here in The Hague on the 4th of January,

21 2005, and all the boxes were stored in evidence unit in the vault.

22 Q. And then we won't go through that but then is that when the

23 process of assigning ERN numbers and scanning and all the normal processes

24 associated with evidence takes place?

25 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

Page 17427

1 Q. Sorry. After they arrive here and are put in the evidence vault,

2 without going into all the details, is that when these documents are

3 processed the way other evidence is, assigned ERN numbers, scanned into

4 the system and so forth?

5 A. Yes. The organising process of these documents started on the

6 16 -- as far as I remember on the 13 January 2005, and first each

7 document -- okay. It took some time, of course, but it lasted about few

8 months, and each document received its own ERN number, was scanned and put

9 in the system.

10 Q. Can we look at some receipts now and some records. These are all

11 together in 02807, and this is my last exhibit.

12 Thank you. Now, there's several pages to this, and I'd like to

13 just -- just very briefly go through page by page and tell us what this

14 chain of receipts and records shows.

15 A. Okay. The -- the first page --

16 Q. And we have up here 04247825, for the record, it's the first page.

17 A. The first page this is declaration on receipt of materials signed

18 by OTP investigator on the field, Finn Tollefsen, and by Dragan Milosevic,

19 the person who handed over the archive to our field office in Banja Luka.

20 Q. Now, it says at the bottom in the handwritten portion by

21 investigator Finn Toleffsen, 24 cardboard boxes and you earlier, I

22 believe, said 23 cardboard boxes came to Zagreb. Can you explain that?

23 A. Yes, I can. It happened because the second day when the boxes

24 arrived to the Banja Luka field office and the investigator Toleffsen

25 received also another boxes, two boxes contained the tapes seized in other

Page 17428

1 operation by the MUP of Republika Srpska, but the tapes had nothing to do

2 with archive. And he counted -- counted also this -- this box.

3 Q. All right. Could we go to the next page. 04247826 is the ERN

4 number. What does this statement of enclosure tell us?

5 A. Yeah. This is a statement of enclosure signed by the head of the

6 office in Zagreb confirming that the boxes, this material, arrived in

7 Zagreb on the 17 December 2004, at 1630 hundred hours.

8 Q. And it also discusses that they are repacked.

9 A. Yes. Also there is information that these boxes were repacked

10 into 57 boxes.

11 Q. Could we go to the next page, please, which is 04247827, a list of

12 box numbers. What does this tell us? The date is the 20th of December,

13 2004.

14 A. This is information how the boxes which arrived to the Zagreb

15 field office were repacked into 55 boxes in Zagreb.

16 Q. Okay. And now can we go to the next page of this document?

17 A. Yeah. At the end is handwritten note that mention the 55 boxes.

18 Q. All right. Now, earlier we saw -- a minute ago --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Does that mean that the extra box, what

20 he explained would be number 24, was then repacked in two boxes, making a

21 total of 57?

22 MR. NICHOLLS: That's where I was going, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: No, please, Your Honour. That was --

25 Q. Can you explain, you earlier discussed the number 57; this receipt

Page 17429

1 is 55. Could you tell us about that?

2 A. Yes, because the two additional boxes they consist of the tapes

3 received also from the Banja Luka field office.

4 Q. Thank you. We're almost -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. I've lost

5 track of when the next break is. I've only got a very little bit more.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The next break is now.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. All right. I'm really nearly done.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And it will help you get back on track.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We're 25 minutes break, thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. If we could go now to the next page, which is ERN 04247829. It's

16 page 5 of this document. And this is a UN ICTY cargo manifest. It will

17 come up in a moment, and you can just tell us what this document is.

18 A. Okay. This UN ICTY cargo manifest signed by head of the office in

19 Zagreb field office, and also by the person named Dirk Bruks.

20 Q. And it says here mode of transportation, truck, Europe. It's

21 pretty self-explanatory, but what is this document for?

22 A. This is for -- for the trip, you know, used by the truck driver,

23 the trip team which drove to -- to The Hague from Zagreb field office.

24 Q. And here we see that are 1 to 57 boxes of evidence. Without

25 saying what it is, the area here that's been redacted, did it have

Page 17430

1 anything to do with the Drina Corps collection, that other material that

2 was transported in this truck?

3 A. No. The redacted things, you know, are nothing to do with the

4 archive material.

5 Q. Okay. Last page, page 6, which is 04247830. It's a packing list

6 with some signatures at the bottom, and it shows that there are 55 boxes

7 of documents and that boxes 56 and 57 are evidence tapes. Can you just

8 tell us about this document very briefly?

9 A. Yes. This is packing list prepared by Thomas Osorio, the head of

10 the UN ICTY office in Zagreb, and the final recipient signature on this

11 document is the member of evidence unit from ICTY. This mean that these

12 55 boxes and two another boxes consisted of tapes from Banja Luka were

13 received by member of evidence unit here in The Hague.

14 Q. And that was, we can see 4th of January, 2005; is that right?

15 A. Yeah. The transport was sent on the 3rd of January, 2005 and

16 arrived to The Hague on the 4th of January, 2005 and was received by

17 member of the evidence unit.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One question, Mr. McCloskey. No, no, no. It's --

19 it's directed to Mr. McCloskey. You have no problem with your extension

20 number being communicated to the whole world, do you, Mr. McCloskey?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think that's all right. I'll -- if I get any

22 calls I'll change it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. I hadn't noticed, thought

25 of that.

Page 17431

1 That concludes my direct. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

3 We now have approximately three-quarters of an hour.

4 Mr. Zivanovic.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think you'll finish today?

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I hope so.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Blaszczyk.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. I would like to clear up a few matters at the beginning. You have

12 been shown a document that I would like to see again, 2807, Prosecutor's

13 Exhibit 2807.

14 It is dated 13 December 2004, and I see it was signed by a man

15 named Dragi Milosevic. There are two more signatures there. But do you

16 agree that your signature isn't there?

17 A. Yes, I'm agree.

18 Q. You agree that you were not present when this document was

19 drafted? Yes, meaning you were present or not present?

20 A. I was not present.

21 Q. Thank you. From this document I see that then, on the 13 December

22 2004, 16 boxes were turned over. That is, on the 15th and 16th that they

23 were repacked into 24 boxes in Banja Luka. You were not present during

24 the repackaging of this material from 16 into 24 boxes, were you?

25 A. [Previous translation continues]... Yes.

Page 17432

1 Q. You mean you were not present.

2 A. I wasn't present.

3 Q. Can we now see the next page of this document.

4 On the next page, towards the bottom of this document we see that

5 the liaison officer received 24 boxes from the OTP office in Banja Luka,

6 and they were repacked again into 27 boxes this time to facilitate

7 transport. Do you agree with me?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Fifty-seven boxes.

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC:

11 Q. Fifty-seven. I'm sorry.

12 A. Yes, I agree with you.

13 Q. Again, you were not present when this was done?

14 A. I was present at that time, at this stage. I was present.

15 Q. And you took part in the repackaging of those 24 into 57 boxes?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Tell me, please, that was on the 17th December 2004, at least

18 that's what we read here. Can you confirm?

19 A. Yes, it was on the 17 of December. Actually we started on the 17

20 of December but it lasted about two days, I think, until the 19 of

21 December.

22 Q. On that occasion did you inventory the documentation contained in

23 the boxes?

24 A. No, I didn't. I had no time to do it.

25 Q. Was there anyone else had who had time to do it?

Page 17433

1 A. No. There were present only me, head of the office, and one of

2 the interpreter.

3 Q. Can you now tell me what was done with those boxes on the 19th

4 December when the repacking was finished?

5 A. You mean these new boxes, the 55 boxes?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. They were kept at the field office in -- in Zagreb until 3rd

8 [Realtime transcript read in error "5th"] of January, 2005, where they

9 were sent to The Hague.

10 Q. Could you say the date again, because it's not in the record --

11 oh, yes, it is. Sorry. It's all right. In the meantime it was

12 corrected.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Mr. Nicholls.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honour. I think there's an error in

15 the transcript on line 21, page 79. I believe the witness said 3rd of

16 January and we've got 5th. I heard 3rd, which --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Blaszczyk.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's correct. It was kept in the field office

19 until 3rd of January.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: 3rd of January. And that corresponds with the date

21 you see at the bottom of the document right to the left of the signature.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You told us that, among other things, there existed tapes in one

24 of those boxes. Did you listen to them?

25 A. Personally, I didn't.

Page 17434

1 Q. Did anybody else listen to them in your presence?

2 A. No. No. For sure not in the field office in Zagreb, but for sure

3 here in -- in-house.

4 Q. When you say in-house, you mean here in The Hague, or you mean the

5 field office in Banja Luka?

6 A. I mean here in The Hague, in our building.

7 Q. Can you tell me -- you explained to us here the tapes were

8 separated because they were not related to the Drina Corps. How did you

9 know that?

10 A. I received this information from the investigator from the field.

11 I later on also I learn it from the information we received from the

12 authority of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. Did that investigator tell you that he had listened to those

14 tapes?

15 A. I don't remember, but I don't think so.

16 Q. According to this first document, those tapes were among the other

17 material of the Drina Corps that had been turned over on the 13th of

18 April. Do you agree with that? Sorry, 13 December.

19 A. As far as I know, the tapes were handed over to our field office

20 in Banja Luka on the 14th of December.

21 No, I cannot confirm.

22 Q. And you cannot confirm that they were listened to?

23 A. Sorry.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness answered before

25 he heard the translation.

Page 17435

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But we need the answer which we have it now.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. My question is you cannot confirm that the tapes had been listened

4 to in the meantime. [Previous translation continues] ... It was not in

5 transcript, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Still we have that too. So let's proceed.

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Could you tell me, please, you were present when all this

9 documentation arrived in The Hague?

10 A. I am not sure that I was present when the documentation arrived to

11 The Hague, but I was present when the documentation arrived to the Zagreb

12 field office.

13 Q. Do you know when -- whether and when -- something was

14 misinterpreted here, that it arrived in Greater Serbia. I meant Zagreb.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You know they have a databank. That will be

16 corrected in due course. Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Do you know whether, and if yes, when the documentation received

19 from Zagreb was inventoried, those 23 boxes and the additional one? Was

20 it inventoried here in the OTP in The Hague?

21 A. Yes, it was done during the quite long process in the evidence

22 unit vault by the team assigned to do this task. The documentation was

23 organised into categories and then MFI'd, given ERN, scanned and put into

24 the system. It lasted quite a long time. If you mean inventory in this

25 way.

Page 17436

1 Q. Did anyone from the authorities of Republika Srpska ever attend

2 the process of inventorying this documentation?

3 A. I'm not aware about it.

4 Q. [In English] The answer is I'm not aware about it?

5 A. I don't know. I think rather not.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know if somebody from the Yugoslav

7 authorities was present because that documentation had been taken from

8 Yugoslavia?

9 A. I think not, but I am not sure.

10 Q. Could we now look at Exhibit 2809, the picture that we have been

11 shown.

12 Were you present when these boxes were opened upon arrival in The

13 Hague and when these documents were taken out?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you answer the question, yes, Mr. Nicholls.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll withdraw. The question was different than

16 what I expected.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So do you wish to hear the

18 question again or are you in a position to answer it?

19 THE WITNESS: I can answer it, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay go ahead.

21 THE WITNESS: I wasn't present when that picture was taken here.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: But if I can just be clear. This picture and --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And the question is --

24 MR. NICHOLLS: -- was -- is from Banja Luka was the testimony on

25 direct not in The Hague which is what my friend said. I don't know if

Page 17437

1 that was a correct translation or what the error is here, but this picture

2 is from Banja Luka.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Then I must have

5 misunderstood.

6 Q. But in any case, were you present when the documents were taken

7 out from the boxes shown in the picture.

8 A. Not from these boxes, not from these military boxes. The boxes

9 were handed over first to Banja Luka field office and the documentation

10 from the boxes were packed into cardboard boxes.

11 Q. Do you know, if we look at these documents here, were these

12 documents taken out of one particular box or is it just documentation that

13 was randomly photographed standing next to a box?

14 A. I cannot say that. I don't know.

15 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

17 Mr. Meek or who would like to go next?

18 MR. OSTOJIC: I can handle it, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

22 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is John Ostojic as you know we've

23 met before. I represent Mr. Ljubisa Beara. I'm going to ask you some

24 questions here today to clarify some matters.

25 Sir, am I correct that -- and I know you shared with us the --

Page 17438

1 essentially the chain of custody with respect to the documents once the

2 OTP was in possession of them from December '04 through today's date,

3 correct? That's the essence of your testimony?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Okay. Well as an investigator working for the OTP on the

6 Srebrenica case, could you share with us what the chain of custody of

7 these documents were for the nine years prior to the OTP getting into

8 possession of them?

9 A. Base of -- on the information I have, you know, base of on the

10 statements we collected from few witnesses, I know that this documentation

11 was first collected by the Drina Corps common -- command in January,

12 between January and April in 1996, and were kept in Drina Corps command

13 and then were sent to Bijeljina for some time. In 1997 came back to

14 Sokolac to the 5th Corps command and, as far as I know, was sent to

15 Zvornik and Mali Zvornik in spring 1998.

16 Q. Okay. Well, share with me if you will, sir, why you think it's

17 important to maintain a proper chain of custody for documents that may be

18 used as evidence in a criminal proceeding. I want to hear from you think

19 why it may or may not be important?

20 A. Of course this is important, because we can show -- we can see if

21 anybody interfere into these documents.

22 Q. Now, you told us earlier today upon my learned friend's

23 questioning that you went to Zagreb on the 17th of December '04 in order

24 to make an assessment of the documents; is that right?

25 A. Initial assessment.

Page 17439

1 Q. Okay. I didn't hear the word "initial" earlier but I'll accept

2 that. What did you do to make an initial assessment. Tell me what your

3 process is, if you will?

4 A. When I arrive to Zagreb actually nobody knows at that time which

5 kind of collection it is. We're not sure that this is Drina Corps

6 collection or Main Staff collection. I would like to check. Actually I

7 was sent by my supervisor to Zagreb to check what kind of documents they

8 are.

9 Q. Okay. So am I correct then the conversation you had with

10 Finn Tollefsen, you didn't discuss with him what the contents of these

11 boxes were?

12 A. I don't remember the exact conversation, but I don't think that

13 Finn was aware what -- what is the contents of these documents, fully

14 aware.

15 Q. Because when my learned friend asked you how did you come to learn

16 that the documents were in Banja Luka, you mentioned your management whose

17 name you didn't give us and that would be okay and then you also mentioned

18 the investigator in the field and you mentioned Finn Tollefsen. So you

19 didn't talk to him about whether he opened the boxes or determined whether

20 the collection would be relevant specifically for the unit that you were

21 working which would have been Srebrenica?

22 A. I talked to him to the phone but I don't remember the exact

23 conversation but it wasn't clear, you know, during this conversation this

24 is the collection of the Drina Corps, the Main Staff or any other units.

25 Q. Okay. Let me go back to your first meeting when you went to

Page 17440

1 Zagreb on the 17th of December, 04. Did you maintain a diary or keep

2 notes which, typically, I suggest an investigator should do in making an

3 assessment or initial assessment of what you were doing, namely

4 identifying or examining documents?

5 A. Maybe not notes, but I made some kind of copies of a few documents

6 relevant to July 1995.

7 Q. Okay. Now you had a copy machine available to you?

8 A. Yes, we had.

9 Q. Did you did you --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly ask you to observe a short

11 pause between questions and answers.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You are perfectly right. You're both speaking

13 in English, so please allow a short pause between question and answer.

14 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I apologise.

16 Q. Sir, now were your reports back to the Office of the Prosecution

17 all oral or did you have to maintain like an information report or

18 something to document what exactly it is that you did? Did you photocopy

19 documents? Did you review documents or any of that sort?

20 A. As I told you, I made some photocopies of these documents from

21 this collection but I had no time even to prepare only inventory list or

22 something like that. There were too many documents, too many pages,

23 350.000 pages.

24 Q. Right and forgive me because I may have misspoke. I'm not asking

25 you if you inventoried each page on the visit of the 17th of December,

Page 17441

1 2004. I'm saying as a reasonably prudent investigator, wouldn't you or

2 did you, sir, keep notes of what you actually did to suggest as follows:

3 I arrived in Zagreb at this time. I was given X amount of boxes of

4 documents. I opened the documents. I found that they may or may not be

5 relevant to the Srebrenica case to which I had been assigned since January

6 2003, although nobody knew that until I came to visit the offices in

7 Zagreb. And then just to tell them what you did basically, how you then

8 kept the documents from being accessible to others, if you will. You're

9 telling me you made no such written report at that time or any time

10 thereafter to any of your superiors?

11 A. No, I didn't make any specific report regarding this collection.

12 I just informed my supervisor through the phone and when I came back to --

13 to The Hague.

14 Q. Okay. Now, it's not as important to me once the Prosecution

15 received the documents, as you can imagine, in 2004, and we're not

16 claiming that the Prosecutor in any -- at any time manipulated or tried to

17 distort or alter those documents, but let's go back to the nine and a half

18 year gap from the time the documents were essentially created and from --

19 up to the time the OTP was in possession of those documents. Are you

20 aware, sir, that after 1998 who was actually the -- personally responsible

21 to maintain and keep those documents?

22 A. I am not aware who was personally responsible for these documents,

23 but I know where the documents were kept.

24 Q. Are you aware of the name Dragan Obrenovic?

25 A. Yes, I am.

Page 17442

1 Q. Okay. Now, you were on this team now for four plus years. Are

2 you aware of the fact that Dragan Obrenovic was personally supervised and

3 was in charge of the documents, keeping them supposedly in a safe place?

4 A. It was mention in one of the statement handed over to OTP by the

5 authorities of Republika Srpska.

6 Q. And for how long? Tell the Court how long Dragan Obrenovic had

7 the only keys, right, and had the only access to this Banja Luka

8 collection of documents. For how long did he have that?

9 A. I don't know how long Dragan Obrenovic had the keys from this --

10 from -- from this building or collections, but even I don't know whether

11 Dragan Obrenovic had a key, you know, from this collections, but I know

12 that it was mentioned in one of the statement, statement of

13 Nebojsa Vukicevic.

14 Q. Right. What if anything as a reasonably prudent investigator did

15 you do, sir, to verify whether Nebojsa Vukicevic was correct or not in

16 stating that Dragan Obrenovic had the only keys to the storage area where

17 the Drina Corps collection was maintained from 1998?

18 A. I didn't speak with Dragan -- sorry, with Nebojsa Vukicevic.

19 Q. Did you speak with Dragan Obrenovic?

20 A. About this collection?

21 Q. No, at all.

22 (redacted)

23 Q. Well, did you have an opportunity at that time, sir, to discuss

24 with him the fact that he had at all times maintained the keys, the only

25 keys, I suggest, and was the only person who had access to those

Page 17443

1 documents? Did you know that?

2 A. I know the story of Dragan Obrenovic. He told us how he was

3 involved in this archive.

4 Q. And what did he say? Did he -- it's true that he personally

5 supervised the documents once they came to Zvornik and that he was the

6 only person who had the keys to the storage where those documents were

7 kept? Did you inquire about that?

8 A. As far as I -- I remember and I recall, and Dragan Obrenovic

9 facilitate, you know, this passing the border by this archive to Mali

10 Zvornik.

11 Q. Well, did you ever speak to Nebojsa Vukicevic about the fact that

12 he states and I'll quote it for you because I don't know if you remember

13 but you may, that: "Dragan Obrenovic was responsible for the storage of

14 it," being the documents, "in the above-mentioned place from April 1998

15 through March of 1999."

16 Do you know that?

17 A. I never spoke with him.

18 Q. Why not?

19 A. Why I should spoke to him?

20 Q. Well, to find out if at any point he either created documents, to

21 find out if he ever added things to documents, to find out and to ensure

22 us that the documents that are in your possession are actually authentic

23 and, therefore, reliable. You don't think that would be important?

24 A. Yeah, it is important, but I know that my colleagues from other

25 team, they were involved to find out who learned to get evidence, how this

Page 17444

1 collection came to our possession.

2 Q. Well, help me with this. In the hierarchy of investigators, where

3 would you fall with respect to the Srebrenica case currently? Are you the

4 lead investigator, sir?

5 A. We can say so.

6 Q. Okay. And when did you become the lead investigator?

7 A. When the previous lead investigator left the Tribunal one year

8 ago.

9 Q. One year ago?

10 A. One and a half year ago, I think.

11 Q. And who was that?

12 A. Bruce Bursik.

13 Q. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Bursik whether or not any of the

14 investigators at any time followed up to determine how was it that

15 Dragan Obrenovic, an accused, a person who admitted his guilt, was

16 convicted and sentenced, how was it that he had maintained crucial

17 documents, I suggest, for a period of approximately one year and no one

18 had either asked him that or followed up with Mr. Nebojsa Vukicevic?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: I mean, it's a compound, confusing, very long

21 question.

22 MR. OSTOJIC: I don't think it's confusing at all, and I don't

23 know if that's a basis for an objection, but if the witness can't

24 understand the question, I'll be more than happy to restate it but we

25 don't need the Prosecution to assist the witness at this point, I would

Page 17445

1 think.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm not assisting I'm objecting to an improper

3 compound question which has three or four different elements in it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's split it or you rephrase it,

5 Mr. Ostojic.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: You know, compound questions, Your Honour, on

7 cross-examination are permitted if you're, in essence, putting your

8 case --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay --

10 MR. OSTOJIC: -- so it is an improper objection but in any event.

11 Q. Do you understand the question, sir?

12 A. Yes, I understand.

13 Q. Can you answer it for me?

14 A. I never discuss it with Mr. Bruce Bursik.

15 Q. Do you think it's important to find out from wither

16 Dragan Obrenovic or Mr. Vukicevic whether or not there was any alterations

17 or modifications or changes with respect to these documents?

18 A. I think it is important and was discussed with Dragan Obrenovic.

19 Q. What is a EOD?

20 A. This is the team, IFOR team for checking, you know, the materials

21 for explosives -- explosives.

22 Q. Now, on this Exhibit P02807, if I could direct your attention to

23 that and if we could have that up on the e-court, please. And I'll just

24 ask the question -- by the time it comes up I'm sure you'll be familiar

25 with it. It says that Mr. Tollefsen actually EOD'd the 16 boxes of

Page 17446

1 documents.

2 A. It's mean that this -- one second. I have too big picture of

3 this. Yeah, it's mean that boxes were checked by IFOR team for possible

4 explosive material which could be located in these boxes.

5 Q. So that's what EOD means?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. And at no time did you do an inventory in December and at no time

8 did Mr. Tollefsen do an inventory of these documents other than the

9 general size of the documents or the description of these documents and

10 the number of the documents; correct?

11 A. Yes. It's correct.

12 Q. The contents were first reviewed when, sir?

13 A. The contents of its collection.

14 Q. We're talking about the Drina Corps collection, though; right?

15 A. I mean, yeah.

16 Q. All right. So -- I just don't want to be confused when you say

17 each collection because I know you're going to be with us several more --

18 or a couple more times about other collections but I'm just focusing

19 basically on the Drina Corps collection today.

20 A. As I told before, the initial assessment I made in Zagreb it was

21 very, very brief one, very rough one. I had a chance only to concentrate

22 on few documents which I -- I noticed that were from July 1995.

23 Q. Okay. Share with us, if you will, the actual place where the

24 documents were from 1998 up until they arrived in Banja Luka in 2004. Do

25 you know what that, basically, time line is, sir?

Page 17447

1 A. Yes. In -- I got this information from -- from few documents and

2 from few statements.

3 Q. If you could be kind enough to identify it for us. Not to verify

4 it but just so that we can be also informed as you are. From what

5 documents and what statements?

6 A. From documents received from the authority of Republika Srpska,

7 mainly from ministry of interior of Republika Srpska, and then from the

8 statement of Nebojsa Vukicevic and also from statement, (redacted)

9 (redacted).

10 Q. Okay. And do you know, sir, when you first started working on the

11 Srebrenica unit, you knew that Srebrenica actually involved the area of

12 Zvornik; correct? In part.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you learned that from --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the interpreters. Thank

16 you.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Sorry to rush through it with you but we'll take our

18 time and I apologise again to the interpreters.

19 Q. Now, you know -- did it ever cross your mind or did you ever

20 question why the documents were brought back to Zvornik?

21 A. Yes, of course.

22 Q. Were you the only one in the entire OTP or Srebrenica

23 investigative team who wondered about that?

24 A. No, not -- not only me.

25 Q. Well, tell me what actions you proposed or took to try to

Page 17448

1 determine how was it that these documents that involved Zvornik ended up

2 back at Zvornik. What did you do?

3 A. I -- I did personally nothing, but I know that my colleagues from

4 other teams who used to work also for Srebrenica team, they -- they made

5 lot of efforts to -- to find out where the collection is located and how

6 to get it back to -- to ICTY.

7 Q. I can't read it on the transcript because it's stalled on me, but

8 what other -- what other people are you referring to?

9 A. I'm referring to people who used to work for Srebrenica team and

10 now they are working for another team.

11 Q. And who are they?

12 A. This is investigator Brett Randall. He made a lot of efforts to

13 locate this archive. He sent a lot of requests to the authorities of

14 Republika Srpska as far as I know also to the Serbia and Montenegro to

15 locate the location of this archive, not only this one but also the

16 archive of the Main Staff.

17 Q. Anyone else other than Brett Randall? You said people, and I just

18 assumed it might be plural?

19 A. I think other -- other people were involved also in this -- this

20 project, but I don't recall the names right now.

21 Q. Okay. Now, do you remember, I'm sure you do, who

22 Dragan Obrenovic's investigator was on his Defence team; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It was his brother; right?

25 A. Yes, I remember.

Page 17453

1 Q. And what's the basis of your knowledge of that, sir?

2 A. It is also from a statement of Dusan Vucetic and Dragan Obrenovic.

3 Q. Just so that I'm clear I have Nebojsa, not Dusan?

4 A. Nebojsa, sorry.

5 Q. That's okay. Did he give -- did he --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, yes, Mr. Nicholls.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Just a point of clarification for my friend's

8 question about the documents, the question being in Zvornik. They weren't

9 stored in Zvornik, I don't think he's saying. They went through Zvornik

10 to Mali Zvornik.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, I don't mind if Mr. --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we go into this on Monday.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, we will -- we will go into it on Monday but I

14 don't think it's an appropriate comment. If he wants to object he should

15 give us the legal basis for it, not tell the witness -- the witness

16 clearly knows what the time line is. He's brought here to share with us

17 what that time line of the chain of custody of the documents are. And I

18 think it's very inappropriate and quite candidly he's wrong.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I have to stop --

20 MR. OSTOJIC: And he should read Mr. Vukicevic's statement again.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: But the legal basis is he's misstating the facts.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll stop here.

23 Mr. Bursik -- I was calling him Bursik now. Mr. Blaszczyk, thank

24 you so much. The agreement is that we'll continue with him Monday

25 morning. Isn't that so?

Page 17454

1 MR. NICHOLLS: I think not, Your Honour. I talked to my colleague

2 before and we would continue but now I can see this is going to be

3 probably a lengthier cross than I expected and from talking to my friends

4 Ms. Fauveau has --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But can't we at least finish Mr. Ostojic's

6 cross-examination on Monday?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could get an estimate but this could go on

8 and on and on.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more do you have?

10 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm going to read the transcript again, Your Honour

11 I'll try to shorten it but given some of his answers and given that he

12 does have additional information, I could be over an hour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I'll let you discuss this amongst

14 yourselves and then you tell us on Monday.

15 Okay. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk.

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Josse.

18 MR. JOSSE: Bearing in mind where we're up to, presumably the

19 Court will give the normal warning to the witness not to discuss the case

20 with anyone, in particular with the Prosecutors.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You said not to discuss the case. Yes, of course.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, the case needs to be discussed with the lead

23 investigator on the case and that's what my friends, at least from the

24 Beara team and I think from the Miletic team, have said is that they've

25 got no problem with us speaking to the witness. We should be able to

Page 17455

1 speak to the witness about anything other than his testimony. I mean

2 we're obviously not going to talk about the questions or the answers or

3 anything that's going on with the testimony on this topic, but we need to

4 talk with the witness about the case.

5 MR. JOSSE: Why does that need to be done prior to resolution of

6 whether he's going to continue on Monday morning? In other words --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: He's told you that for all intents and purposes he's

8 the lead investigator in the Srebrenica case.

9 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, in my submission, he's in the

10 middle of giving evidence. If -- if he stops giving evidence now and

11 doesn't resume on Monday then I say fair enough. But if he does continue

12 on Monday morning, there's no reason for them to speak to him between now

13 and Monday morning. That's how I put it.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I think he should not continue Monday

15 morning because when I spoke to my friends before, I said that the cross

16 was going to be four -- the original cross estimate was four hours and

17 they said it's going to be much less than that. And I asked if it was

18 possible for him to just continue for a short while on Monday morning and

19 the answer was yes. If this is going to go on throughout on Monday then

20 we're not going to be able --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we'll come down with our decision here and now.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So the position -- Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Josse,

24 Mr. Nicholls, and everyone else, Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony stops here.

25 And you will, of course, not be entitled to discuss with Mr. Blaszczyk the

Page 17456

1 subject matter of his testimony. Of course, him being the lead

2 investigator in the Srebrenica case, you will be entitled to discuss other

3 matters with him.

4 Monday we start with General Smith and we continue. Thank you.

5 Have a nice weekend all of you.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day

8 of November, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.