Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18167

 1                          Monday, 26 November 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the

 6    case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 8    number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, ma'am.  For the record, all the

10    accused are here.  From the Defence teams, I only notice the absence of

11    Mr. Haynes.

12            From the Prosecution side, I see Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls,

13    Mr. Thayer, Mr. Elderkin.

14            I think we are all here.

15            What's the latest news about the witness?  Is he in a better state

16    of health?

17            MR. NICHOLLS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

19            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, he is.  My understanding is that the witness

20    is fine.  He is here.  He is ready to start his testimony.  And we should

21    be able to proceed today.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

23            MR. NICHOLLS:  I would like to -- I have one preliminary I'd like

24    to go into in private session but that can be at any time before he

25    starts.

Page 18168

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Lets go into private session now.

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Page 18169

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18                          [Open session]

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are back in open session.  Madam Usher, if you

20    could escort the witness into the courtroom, please.

21                          [The witness entered court]

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, Mr. Ivanovic.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Thank you very much.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are all very glad to see that you are feeling

25    well and we are sorry if you had to stay --

Page 18170

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are sorry if you had to stay over the weekend

 3    because of your cold.

 4            You're about to start giving evidence, and before you do so, our

 5    rules require that you make a solemn declaration that in the course of

 6    your testimony you will be speaking the truth.  The text of the solemn

 7    declaration is going to be handed to you --

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  The text --

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  The text is going to be handed to you now.  Please

12    read it out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I give my name and then?

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no, no.  Just read it out.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  I solemnly declare that

16    I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17                          WITNESS:  VELJKO IVANOVIC

18                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.  Take

20    a seat.

21            There are a couple of things that I need to go through with you

22    before you start your testimony or more than two things.

23            The first one is the following:  If at any time you're not feeling

24    well, or you need a break, you only have to ask.  We are here to

25    accommodate --

Page 18171

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That -- I will do that.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are here to accommodate you, so you don't need to

 3    worry that you will be unduly tasked while you are testifying.

 4            That's the first thing.

 5            The second thing, and I want a confirmation from you of this to

 6    make sure that we are on the right track, is that you asked and you agree

 7    to give your testimony in open session so that outside --

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  -- outsiders can follow what you're saying without

10    having in place some of the usual protective measures like pseudonym, the

11    use of a pseudonym, or facial or voice distortion.  Am I right?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  The third thing is the following.  It is

14    perhaps the most important of the three.  You are here to answer questions

15    that will be put to you, both by the Prosecution and the various Defence

16    teams.  It's not to be excluded that, in the course of these questions,

17    you may be asked to give information which, if you give truthfully, could

18    possibly expose you to criminal proceedings, not here but elsewhere.  I'm

19    not saying that this is going to happen, but since I don't know what

20    questions are going to be asked of you, I am bound by law to alert you to

21    the -- to your rights.

22            In case you are asked such incriminatory questions, then you have

23    a right, before you proceed to answer that question, to ask us, the Judges

24    here, to exempt you from answering such questions on the basis that they

25    could incriminate you.  Now, this right of yours is not absolute.  In

Page 18172

 1    other words, we have two options.  We can either agree with you and grant

 2    you an exemption, or completely disagree with you and compel you, order

 3    you, to answer the question notwithstanding that it may appear to be

 4    incriminatory.  If we exempt --

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  If we exempt you from answering such questions, all

 7    well and good.  If we compel you to answer such questions, then you have a

 8    further right.  And this further right is or translates into the

 9    impossibility of anyone of making use of your testimony here when

10    answering those questions against you in any proceedings.  In other words,

11    anything you state here, because you have been ordered by the Trial

12    Chamber to state it, cannot be made use of against you in any future

13    proceedings that may be instituted.

14            I just want to know from you whether I have been clear enough in

15    explaining this to you and whether you have understood it or whether you

16    would like to ask questions.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have

18    understood you fully and I'm quite content.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  As we go along we will be using our

20    discretions, the discretion to go into private session sometimes if it's

21    in the best interests of justice.  That's the last thing that I wanted you

22    to alert, in spite of the fact that would you like to testify completely

23    in open session.

24            Mr. Nicholls will go first and then he will be followed by the

25    various Defence teams.  Mr. Nicholls.

Page 18173

 1            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3                          Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

 4       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic.  I take it you can hear me okay.

 5       A.   Good morning.

 6       Q.   If at any time the headphones stop working just let me know right

 7    away because sometimes the volume goes up and down.

 8            Okay.  Now, the first thing I want to do is ask you some questions

 9    about yourself and a little bit of background so that the Judges know who

10    you are.  First of all, could you tell the Judges your full name, please?

11       A.   My name is Veljko Ivanovic.  My father Pero, mother Petra, from

12    Donji Sepak, Zvornik municipality, Republika Srpska or the BH, whatever

13    you prefer.

14       Q.   Thank you.  And when were you born, sir?

15       A.   The 8th of October 1940.

16       Q.   And --

17       A.   In Donji Sepak.

18       Q.   And what kind of work have you done mostly in your life?  What's

19    you're occupation been in Donji Sepak?

20       A.   I was a professional driver, driving foreign goods for 32 years

21    and two months.

22       Q.   Okay.  And are you married?

23       A.   Yes, I'm married with two daughters.  I have three grandsons and

24    one granddaughter, two sons in law, of course, me and my wife.

25       Q.   Okay.  Now, what I want to do is start asking you some questions

Page 18174

 1    now about things that happened in 1995, and if you remember I met with you

 2    in June of this year and you gave a statement to the OTP and I just want

 3    to go over some of those same things again and have you explain them to

 4    the Court, okay?  The same as we did in Kozluk.  Now --

 5       A.   Fine.

 6       Q.   Now, at some time in 1995 were you mobilised into the VRS?  Can

 7    you tell us about that?

 8       A.   Yes, I was, on the 23rd of January 1995, and I have the total

 9    period of service of ten months and 21-odd days.  I was unfit for military

10    service, but it was actually thanks to the intervention from my neighbours

11    that I ended up in the army because they were envious of me working.

12       Q.   Now, when you were mobilised in January 1995, who was the

13    commander of the battalion that you were mobilised into?

14       A.   I was mobilised at the time when this was the 4th Battalion and

15    then it became the 6th Battalion, it was Sreco Acimovic, the village of

16    Malesic.

17       Q.   Okay.  And Malesic is where the headquarters of the battalion is,

18    Sreco's battalion?

19       A.   Yes, yes.  Sreco's command headed by Sreco.

20       Q.   And do you know whether the 6th Battalion was ever called the 2nd

21    Battalion?

22       A.   Yes.  It used to be the 4th.

23       Q.   Okay.  And what kind of -- when you were mobilised, what kind of

24    duties did you perform for Commander Acimovic?  What was your job in the

25    army?

Page 18175

 1       A.   When I took up my duties, it was a Tuesday, I believe it was the

 2    24th of January.  I was charged -- issued with the T 170 Mercedes of

 3    German make and with a small TAM truck manufactured in Maribor and I was

 4    told this literally.  Whenever both vehicles are in use I should drive the

 5    Mercedes, whereas some Vlado Acimovic, aka Munja would be driving the TAM.

 6      When the Mercedes is not in use, I should be driving the TAM and nothing

 7    else.

 8       Q.   I see.  And can you briefly describe that Mercedes truck to us?

 9    What kind of truck it was, how big it was, that kind of thing?

10       A.   It had a small cab.  You would actually have to make the bed

11    across the seats.  It was normally used for the transportation of food,

12    ammunition and intervention platoons wherever reinforcements were needed

13    out of Malesic, up to 30 men.  I would go to the Standard Command and

14    there I would unload goods together with Mitar Lazarevic and after that I

15    would go back to Malesic, and if there was any food or ammunition that I

16    had to take there, that was my duty to do, and then I had to wait for

17    another assignment.

18       Q.   Okay.  And the Standard Command, that's at Karakaj; is that right?

19       A.   Yes, yes, yes.

20       Q.   Now let me ask you some questions about the month of July 1995 and

21    about the work that you were -- or your duties that you were told to do

22    around 11 July during the Srebrenica campaign.  Can you tell us what kind

23    of driving you were told to do, where you were -- where you were going

24    during that period with your Mercedes truck?

25       A.   Normally, I would get up at around 6.30 in the morning, and then I

Page 18176

 1    would check the water and gas gauges in the truck and I'd be there.  On

 2    one occasion, a message arrived and Mitar Lazarevic came in and said to

 3    me, I think it was on the 9th or on the 8th, at any rate three days ahead

 4    of Srebrenica, and said to me to go down to the Standard Command in

 5    Karakaj.  We were supposed to hand over the soldiers in the compound --

 6    no, no, no.

 7            I loaded the soldiers and took them to Zlatne Vode since we

 8    weren't able to go any further up because there was fighting there and it

 9    was uphill, the truck couldn't make it, the soldiers collected their

10    personal belongings, food and ammunition, and went away.  I went back on

11    the orders that I should be on duty for as long as necessary until the

12    action is over.

13       Q.   All right.  And at some point, while you were on duty and working

14    out of Karakaj during this period, do you remember whether you were --

15    whether you went to Rocevic with your truck?

16       A.   On the third day, at around 10.00 or between 10.00 and 11.00, the

17    small Josic came and asked that I should take some food and ammunition

18    over to them.  Panto told me that I should go and park outside the

19    warehouse so that they could load the food and ammunition, the little

20    Josic was with me in the cab, and I went to Zlatne Vode again where I

21    unloaded the food and ammunition and other goods that happened to be

22    there.  I stayed there a while and on the way back, it may have been at

23    11.00 or 11.15, I arrived in the Standard or rather at the gate outside

24    the Standard, and the staircase is some 60 to 70 metres away from the

25    gate.

Page 18177

 1            I saw Panto - and I apologise I'll have to show this with my

 2    hand - he waved to me, calling me to come to him.  I came to him and he

 3    said, "Well, why did you linger there?"  I said, "I didn't feel the need

 4    to hurry."  He then told me, "Sreco called and ordered strictly that you

 5    should all load three crates of ammunition and that you should go to

 6    Rocevic where you would load some other stuff.  From there, you will

 7    proceed to Malesic.  There is no further need for you to be here."  Since

 8    I knew that those were refrigerators with food, I didn't know what was

 9    going on.  I set out toward Rocevic.  I arrived pretty soon.  The distance

10    is some 20 to 21 kilometres.

11            As I arrived in front of the school, the yard was maybe some 40 to

12    50 metres long, I saw a great deal of soldiers there, I also saw Sreco

13    next to the door leading into the school building.  He waved to me this

14    way, and commanded that I should drive the truck in the reverse.  As I

15    approached and neared the door of the building, he said, "Stop."  As I

16    came out of the truck, the back doors were opened, the ammunition was

17    unloaded, the three crates, and they started loading two or rather they

18    placed two planks, two boards, this way, since the Mercedes was quite tall

19    and the stairs were quite low, they placed it as a sort of ramp and they

20    started loading people.

21            I said, "Sreco, what is going on?  I can't do this.  I refuse."

22    He shrugged his shoulders and said this has to be done.  He told me that

23    we should drive to Sib [phoen], to the gravel pit called Donji Sepak, and

24    that's my place, the place I come from.  Since the road forks off, there

25    was no way of -- for me to go to turn into the field, and turn around.  I

Page 18178

 1    had to go into the village to make a U-turn, together with these

 2    prisoners, and I refused.  He then ordered Dragan Jovic to do that, and he

 3    agreed to go below Vitinka, beyond Vitinka.  We loaded them one after the

 4    other, two or three more of those arrived later on, they refused but I

 5    can't do anything.  We drove, we -- the -- there was a -- there were piles

 6    of ammunition already out, outside, next to a car.  There was some food

 7    and drinks, Sreco must have obtained that and authorised this.

 8            And Sreco said, literally the following:  "You have to do this.

 9    You have to see this through.  And I can't watch this."  He disappeared in

10    20 minutes' time and he was no longer there for the remainder of the day.

11    Where he was, I really can't tell you.  He says he was in Malesic.

12       Q.   Okay.  Now, let me just ask a couple backup questions.  You said

13    there was a man named Panto at Standard.  Do you know his full name?

14       A.   His last name is Pantic.  I don't know -- I haven't seen him for

15    the past 15 -- 12 years.  I haven't seen him but I would have liked to

16    have seen him.  He was a very good man.  He was the head of the transport

17    pool in Standard, I think.  He didn't have anything to do with me, only

18    when I would join him if there was something or if I was assigned there to

19    help out.  That's how I knew him.

20       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And you described how three crates of

21    ammunition were loaded on the truck at Standard and as ordered you brought

22    them to the Rocevic school.  How many -- how many bullets or rounds were

23    in each crate, if you could tell us, if you know?

24       A.   From what I can remember, I think it said 1.000 pieces.  They are

25    metal, closed.  You cannot open them.  You would either need scissors or

Page 18179

 1    some good, proper tool.  I -- approximately -- actually not approximately,

 2    exactly 3.000.  Maybe there were more but I don't believe so.  It was a

 3    standard package.

 4       Q.   Okay.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Does he know the calibre by any chance?

 6            MR. NICHOLLS:

 7       Q.   Do you happen to know what calibre those were or from what type of

 8    weapons they were?

 9       A.   Usually for automatic rifles, but I don't know the calibre.  I was

10    not issued with a rifle.  So I didn't serve in the army.

11       Q.   And that day, you didn't have a rifle, you mean, of any kind?

12       A.   No, no.

13       Q.   Now, you've described these trips when were you transporting the

14    prisoners.  How long did this all last?  When did you finish working that

15    day, with these duties?

16       A.   Time went on.  From what I can remember, and I think my memory

17    still serves me well, this was completed between 2.30 to 3.00.  It was all

18    finished.

19       Q.   Okay.  And where did you go when you'd finished with this

20    transportation?

21       A.   I went straight to Malesic.  When I got to Malesic, it was already

22    getting dark, just getting dark.  You could see that it was no longer day.

23    The moralist Vujo Lazarevic was with me in the cab.  And Vukasin Peric, he

24    was the chief of logistics.  And I can't remember if I had already -- if I

25    had also picked up from the place where these people were unloaded or from

Page 18180

 1    the centre of Kozluk, if I picked them up from those places.  I'm not sure

 2    about that.

 3       Q.   Okay.  And again, Vujo Lazarevic, what was his position in the

 4    battalion?  If you remember.

 5       A.   The moralist, the one to keep up the army morale.

 6       Q.   Okay.  And how far is the command at Malesic from Rocevic?  How

 7    far away is it?

 8       A.   It was maybe six and ten -- about 16 kilometres, from 15 to 16.

 9    Malesic-Kozluk is six; then Kozluk -- no, no.  Four and six, maybe 12 or

10    13 kilometres.

11       Q.   All right.  Thank you.

12            MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours I've got a few submissions and words I

13    have to say to Your Honours in private session, if we could either take a

14    break now and come back in private session, a short break I know it's

15    early or go directly into private, whichever Your Honours prefer.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Witness, Mr. Ivanovic, do you think you need a break

17    now or can we continue?  Are you all right?  Can we continue?  Or do you

18    need a break?

19            THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are not receiving interpretation.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not nervous.  I am all right.

22    I can sit for three, four hours.  I can sit until the session is over I'm

23    fine.  But it's up to you.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then let's continue in private session

25    for a short while, to hear what you have to say, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 18181

 1            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Then we will have the break scheduled at 10.30

 3    unless it's the case of having the break earlier.

 4            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 5                          [Private session]

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 5                          [Open session]

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ivanovic, we are going to give you a short break

 7    of 25 minutes and then we are going to continue afterwards.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine by me.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We are in open session.  Please decide

13    whether you wish to continue in open session or in private session,

14    Mr. Nicholls.

15            MR. NICHOLLS:  Private, please, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's go into private session.

17                          [Private session]

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22                          [Open session]

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon?  Or Ms. Nikolic?

24            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I do have some questions

25    for the witness but I'll be much shorter than the time expected.  I

Page 18213

 1    imagine some 30 minutes at the most.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Lazarevic or Mr. Krgovic --

 3    Stojanovic, sorry.  You had none.

 4            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Madam Fauveau?

 6            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  And Gvero team, the same, no questions?

 8            MR. JOSSE:  None.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Sarapa?

10            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Not longer than ten minutes.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So let's move.  Who wishes to go first?

12    Mr. Zivanovic?

13            Now we are back to open session.  However, if you are going to

14    deal with certain issues, we will go back into private session.

15            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move into private session, Your Honour?

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's go into private session.

17                          [Private session]

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25                          [Open session]

Page 18235

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ivanovic, I am pleased to inform you or confirm

 2    to that you we have come to the end of your testimony.  I do wish to tell

 3    you that we quite understand your frustration at not having been able to

 4    testify completely in open session all the time, but we have our own

 5    exigencies here and so we had to impose private session in some instances

 6    in order to protect better the interests of justice.

 7            On behalf of the Tribunal, I wish to thank you for having come

 8    over to give testimony, and I also wish you a safe journey back home.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to say something

10    more.  I ask you once again, the Presiding Judge and the entire Trial

11    Chamber, to go ahead and place the open session on the internet, and as

12    for the rest, the way we agreed, I hope that there won't be any mistakes

13    here because of my grandchildren.  I'm old so I'm just asking you, please,

14    if this is possible.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  The open session will be on the internet.  But what

16    was stated in private session, in private session, will not.  That cannot

17    be.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  That's how it is.  I

19    cannot change anything.  Thank you very much.  It was a pleasure.  I don't

20    know, my generals, especially Vinko, how satisfied he is.  I was talking

21    about what I knew.  I don't know if he had any questions or not.  Drago as

22    well.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.  I think you

24    will now be escorted out of the courtroom, and we wish you a safe journey

25    back home.

Page 18236

 1            Mr. Nicholls, I take it there are no documents that you wish to

 2    tender?

 3            MR. NICHOLLS:  None, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  I suppose there are none also from the Defence side.

 5    Okay, okay, Mr. Ivanovic.

 6                          [The witness withdrew]

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon, I take it you don't have any documents

 8    to tender?

 9            MR. BOURGON:  No, no documents Mr. President but a request before

10    the break which would take two minutes, please.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  And neither do you,

12    Mr. Zivanovic?  No, all right.

13            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, Your Honour.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  So that concludes this witness.  Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

15            MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, I take it opportunity, Friday, the

16    23rd of November, was the deadline for seeking permission or leave to

17    reply to the Prosecution response to our motion to strike the testimony of

18    Witness PW-168.  We weren't able to file the request for reply on Friday

19    night because we needed to do some further consultations amongst the

20    Defence, and we filed at that time a motion seeking a delay until no later

21    than Wednesday of this week.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  I was going to bring these up now.

23            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  There are two motions basically.  Mr. McCloskey, do

25    you take a position on these two motions?  One is the motion that was

Page 18237

 1    filed on the 26th of November -- of November, that's today.  And it's a

 2    joint defence motion seeking leave to reply to Prosecution response

 3    pursuant to Rule 126 bis and variation of time limits pursuant to Rule

 4    127, in which the relief sought is grant the joint defence an extension of

 5    five days to file their joint Defence reply.

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:  We object, Mr. President.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  You object.  And then there is the other one -- one

 8    moment.  And the other one is --

 9                          [Trial Chamber confers]

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We have heard what you had to say.  And

11    we'll come back with our decision soon after the break.

12            Do you have the next witness present here so that we can start

13    immediately with him?

14            Yes, Mr. Josse?

15            MR. JOSSE:  I've got to reply to the 65 ter application in

16    relation to the next two witnesses.  I do take a position and oppose some

17    of the documents in that motion.  I had until noon.  It's now afternoon,

18    and I'm ready to do that after the break.  I don't think that will take

19    more than ten minutes, and I understand the witness is then in the

20    building and can start.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  So we'll have a 25-minute break

22    starting from now.  Thank you.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic?

Page 18238

 1            MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Thank

 2    you.  I only want to say something as a follow-up on what Mr. Bourgon

 3    said.  We find one day is enough for the response to the motion by the

 4    Prosecution in respect of the witness PW-168, and we will submit it today.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Then you have the go ahead.  You have the go

 6    ahead, Ms. Nikolic.

 7            MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. Josse, you wish to address the

 9    Chamber?

10            MR. JOSSE:  I can be very short in relation to this.  We oppose

11    four documents that are in the motion of the 22nd of November.  They are

12    items number 4, number 7, 11 and 12.  Taking them in turn --

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, one moment.  Numbers?

14            MR. JOSSE:  4, 7, 11 and 12.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

16            MR. JOSSE:  Item number 4 was on the submission of the 16th of

17    October, as Mr. Thayer told the Chamber last week.  The Prosecution have

18    decided not to call Mr. Karremans.  They have removed him from their

19    witness list, and we are unclear, bearing that in mind, what the purpose

20    is of adducing this document.  If it is simply to indicate what General

21    Nicolai's state of knowledge was at the time, then that is one thing.  But

22    if in any way, it serves as some sort of alternative to Colonel Karremans

23    actually giving evidence, then we object.

24            So far as item number 7 is concerned, that was not in the

25    submission of the 16th of October, although I accept it had been disclosed

Page 18239

 1    earlier.  In other words, on the 16th of October, the Prosecution were not

 2    intending as such to use it.  Again, we are unclear as to what purpose the

 3    Prosecution seek in trying to adduce this particular protest letter.

 4    Whether either of the two witnesses, Colonel Fortin or General Nicolai

 5    have any knowledge of it, and I think realistically it's General Nicolai

 6    because I don't think the Prosecution are seeking to tender it through

 7    Colonel Fortin, but whether General Nicolai has any knowledge of it and

 8    that the people who have asked about it were General Smith or more

 9    particularly General Janvier, who the Prosecution have chosen not to call.

10            So far as items 11 and 12 are concerned, they also were not on the

11    submission of the 16th of October.  We are unclear again as to the basis

12    for admission.  We have been assisted to this extent:  In a proofing note

13    that Mr. Thayer helpfully provided over the weekend just past, he

14    describes Lieutenant-Colonel Fortin reviewing these two documents, "He

15    regularly received David Harland's weekly situation reports and found them

16    useful and reliable.  He does not recall learning the specific information

17    regarding Zepa contained in these reports but has no reason to doubt its

18    accuracy."  That in our submission is not a basis for admission.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Josse.  Mr. Thayer?

20            MR. THAYER:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Good

21    afternoon, everyone.

22            The -- let me just respond generally at the outset that I think we

23    are permitted to show witnesses all types of documents, whether or not

24    they are the author or the direct recipient of the document, as long as we

25    can show that there is some relevance to the questions or to the answers

Page 18240

 1    that may come from the witness to the case at issue.

 2            With respect specifically to number 4, the Karremans memorandum to

 3    commander BiH, well, General Nicolai was the Chief of Staff and I intend

 4    to ask him questions concerning this memorandum and when it reached the

 5    command and what his state of knowledge was, what if anything they did.

 6    Those are the types of questions that I would ask him.  So I think that's

 7    entirely fair and appropriate.

 8            Whether or not Colonel Karremans was on a witness list or off a

 9    witness list is irrelevant.  Whether Janvier needs to be called or wasn't

10    called is irrelevant.  What's relevant is the basis of knowledge, the

11    answers that the witness is going to give about what a particular document

12    may have meant to him, what he may have done in response to a particular

13    document, whether a particular document accurately reflects the conditions

14    that obtained at the time.  Those are all, I think, fair questions to be

15    asked and provide a relevant basis for using these documents.

16            Again, I think I stated in some detail during my last submission,

17    the relevance for the other three documents, which I had obviously

18    conceded were not on that 16 October list but had been disclosed a long

19    time before, and I don't think I need to repeat in detail why the

20    Prosecution believes these other three documents, protest letter, the

21    protest letters became the subject of extensive cross-examination of

22    General Smith.  The Zepa reports or the reports of activity in Zepa that

23    David Harland speaks about, those were documents that I had initially

24    intended to ask General Nicolai about as Zepa comes under the direct

25    command, that is the Ukrainian Battalion came under the direct command of

Page 18241

 1    Sector Sarajevo, I thought it would be a good idea to ask Colonel Fortin

 2    about those documents as well in his proofing session, seeing how as

 3    Colonel Fortin was the military assistant to the sector commander himself,

 4    General Gobillard.

 5            I think it's relevant that Colonel Fortin doesn't recall all the

 6    information or doesn't recall the specific information concerning the

 7    events in Zepa that are captured in there.  He does recall bits and

 8    pieces, and I think it's relevant for the Court to have an understanding

 9    of how he relied upon reports of David Harland.  We've heard a lot about

10    David Harland and the Court has seen numerous examples of David Harland's

11    reports, and I think it's helpful for the Court to understand in practice

12    on the ground, how these reports were used by the people to whom they were

13    regularly distributed and who relied upon those reports.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.  Do you wish to respond?

15            MR. JOSSE:  Only to this extent.  There are plenty of other

16    reports of Mr. Harland that are in evidence and that were given 65 ter

17    numbers that could be used for this purpose.  Mr. Thayer uses the word "He

18    does recall bits and pieces," that wasn't exactly what the proofing note

19    that I read out says in relation to the two documents to which we object..

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Josse.

21                          [Trial Chamber confers]

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  In reply to your objection, Mr. Josse, having heard

23    both of you, we are satisfied with the explanation given by the

24    Prosecution.  We are only dealing for the time being with the inclusion of

25    these documents in the 65 ter list, which ought to be kept separate and

Page 18242

 1    distinct from the question of admissibility that may arise later, and

 2    which in that case we would decide.  So let's proceed.  So the decision is

 3    the entire list is included in -- for the purpose of the 65 ter rule.  And

 4    they will form part of the 65 ter list of the Prosecution.  Whether you

 5    make use of them or whether they will be ultimately admitted or not is

 6    another matter.

 7            Okay.  Are there any other further submissions before we start

 8    with this next witness?  Okay.  Let's bring the witness in.

 9                          [The witness entered court]

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you.

11            THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  And welcome to this trial.

13            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  You're about to start giving evidence.  You're

15    required to make a solemn declaration before you start your evidence that

16    you will be testifying the truth.  Please go ahead.

17            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

18    whole truth and nothing but the truth.

19                          WITNESS:  LOUIS FORTIN.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.  Please make yourself comfortable.

21    Mr. Thayer for the Prosecution will go first.  He'll then be followed by

22    the various Defence teams on cross-examination.  Mr. Thayer?

23            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                          Examination by Mr. Thayer:

25       Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

Page 18243

 1       A.   Good afternoon.

 2       Q.   We'll both be speaking the same language, so I just ask that you

 3    leave a pause to allow the translator an opportunity to catch up and I'll

 4    try to do the same.

 5       A.   All right.

 6       Q.   Would you please state your name for the record?

 7       A.   Louis Fortin, Lieutenant-Colonel.

 8       Q.   And how old are you, sir?

 9       A.   48.

10       Q.   Where were you born and raised?

11       A.   Born and raised in 3 Rivers, Quebec, which is a small town along

12    the St. Lawrence Seaway in Canada.

13       Q.   If I may I'd just like to briefly summarise your military service

14    history.  Your active service with over 31 years of service in the

15    Canadian forces; is that correct?

16       A.   That's correct.

17       Q.   You've served in various staff, instructor and command positions

18    during that time, is that also correct, sir?

19       A.   Correct.

20       Q.   And what is your current assignment?

21       A.   I'm currently the -- what we call the J9 at one of the regional

22    headquarters in Canada, and I'm responsible for interagency relations with

23    police and emergency services in case of a domestic operations.

24       Q.   And in May of 1995, you began a year-long tour of duty in Bosnia;

25    is that correct?

Page 18244

 1       A.   Correct.

 2       Q.   What was your position?

 3       A.   I was the military assistant to the sector commander of Sector

 4    Sarajevo.

 5       Q.   And who was that, sir?

 6       A.   At the time, I have served three French generals, the first one

 7    when I arrived in May 1995, was General Gobillard.

 8       Q.   And approximately how long did General Gobillard remain as Sector

 9    Sarajevo commander?

10       A.   He remained until mid-August, which was the end of his year-long

11    tour for him.

12       Q.   And by whom was he replaced, sir?

13       A.   He was replaced by another French General named Bachelet.

14       Q.   And how long did General Bachelet serve, approximately?

15       A.   He served until mid-November, if I remember correctly.

16       Q.   Now, physically, where were you headquartered?

17       A.   At the PTT building in Sarajevo itself.

18       Q.   Would you please describe, sir, what your duties and

19    responsibilities were as military assistant or MA to General Gobillard?

20       A.   Well, he had an office staff that looked after his correspondence,

21    and I was the one who accompanied him everywhere, whenever he met with

22    politicians or military personnel of the various factions or with other UN

23    personnel, I was always present with him, took notes, shared advice, and

24    discussed the situation with him on a regular basis.  And I also made the

25    link with the headquarters staff, which was running operations on a daily

Page 18245

 1    basis, so whenever we were away at meetings, I would touch back with them

 2    on return, exchange information that I had gathered and obtain various

 3    situation reports from them to pass on to the general.

 4       Q.   And sir, do you speak French?

 5       A.   Yes, I do.

 6       Q.   And did your ability to do so assist you in any way during your

 7    service?  And did that end up playing a role in terms of what you did as

 8    MA to General Gobillard?

 9       A.   It made life easy for relating with the general himself, his

10    personal staff, and a large portion of the headquarters staff which was

11    also from the French army, and the fact that I could also speak English,

12    the high headquarters, headquarters UNPROFOR, was staffed mostly by

13    British and Dutch personnel who -- and they operated in English most of

14    the time, so I could make the link between the two staffs and the two

15    individuals in the case of the commanders.

16       Q.   Now, during your service in Bosnia, did you come to learn the

17    names of any VRS -- and I understand at the time you may have used the

18    term BSA -- Main Staff officers?

19       A.   I kept a list which I tried to update whenever I had the chance,

20    and I gathered information on who was what in the various factions,

21    including politicians and senior military personnel, and of course I knew

22    some of the names, some of the people I met regularly.  Others that we

23    knew for sure who was doing what job, so...

24       Q.   And sir, did you start this list yourself?

25       A.   I think it was started by my predecessor.  Of course, it changed

Page 18246

 1    regularly, and this is not something that I kept up-to-date on a regular

 2    basis, whenever I had the chance or I found some new information, I would

 3    update it.

 4       Q.   Now, keeping focus on the VRS high command, what names do you

 5    recall knowing during your tour of duty in Bosnia, and then I'll ask you

 6    some follow-up questions about some specific people that you might have

 7    recalled by name?

 8       A.   Well, the two or three that come to mind quickest are General

 9    Mladic, of course, General Tolimir, General Milosevic, whom we met

10    regularly because he was the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps commander, and others

11    that I added eventually, General Miletic and General Gvero.  Also General

12    Krstic, that I remember from that list.

13       Q.   Okay.  Well, let's take them in turn that you've described them.

14    Do you recall with any degree of certainty when you first heard of General

15    Tolimir, for example?

16       A.   I believe it was late June or early July, when the activities in

17    the eastern enclaves started happening.

18       Q.   Okay.  And did you ever meet General Tolimir face-to-face?

19       A.   Yes, sir, I did.  I was sent to Zepa towards the end of July, and

20    I saw him there.

21       Q.   Okay.  And we'll talk about that later on in your examination.

22            Did you have any understanding as to what General Tolimir's

23    position was or his role was in the VRS Main Staff?

24       A.   Actually, until that time, and even now I guess, we knew that he

25    was at the army level, but what job specifically, I was never sure of,

Page 18247

 1    either the deputy to Mladic or the chief of intelligence.  Those are two

 2    of the options that I had.

 3       Q.   Now, you mentioned General Milosevic.  I presume you're referring

 4    to General Dragomir Milosevic; is that correct?

 5       A.   That's correct.

 6       Q.   And you've already described that he was a Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

 7    commander.  You also referred to General Miletic.  Do you recall

 8    approximately when General Miletic became more known to you than less

 9    known to you, if at all, during your service?

10       A.   Well, he's on that list, as I mention, and in his case also, I was

11    not sure what job to -- what job to attribute to him on my said list.  And

12    I was looking at basically the same jobs I described for Tolimir, either

13    the deputy to Mladic or the chief of intelligence or perhaps chief of

14    security.  But he came in the picture, if I can put it that way, at about

15    the same time, in July, I think.

16       Q.   Okay.  Do you recall ever meeting General Miletic face-to-face?

17       A.   I know -- I reviewed my notes, of course, recently, and I know

18    that I've attended a meeting where he was there, but I don't recall the

19    particulars of that meeting or the individual himself.

20       Q.   And do you have any recollection as to approximately when that

21    meeting was?

22       A.   Can't think of it now.

23       Q.   Okay.  And how about General Gvero?  What was your understanding

24    of what his position was, if you had any understanding?

25       A.   Again, he's one of the -- he was part of the senior army staff,

Page 18248

 1    above any of the corps, where we normally dealt at sector level.  I was

 2    not sure of his exact job, no.

 3       Q.   Okay.  And do you recall ever meeting him face-to-face?

 4       A.   No.  Talked to him on the phone, but I don't recall ever meeting

 5    him.

 6       Q.   Now, you just mentioned something, that he was above the corps

 7    where we would normally dealt -- or where we normally dealt at sector

 8    level.  Can you just clarify what you mean by that, sir?

 9       A.   Well, each level of command in the UNPROFOR structure was

10    basically assigned its level to operate with, with the VRS or the BiH

11    army, and in the case of sector, we dealt mostly with corps level.  In the

12    case of Sarajevo, it was General Dragomir Milosevic.

13       Q.   Okay.

14       A.   So the senior officers of the VRS you were asking me about were

15    above our level normally.

16       Q.   Now, I want to focus your attention, sir, to the VRS attack on the

17    Srebrenica enclave for a number of questions.  During the height of the

18    attack, shall we say, between the 8th and 12th or 11th of July, during

19    those three or four days, where did you spend your time?

20       A.   We spent, General Gobillard and I, most of our time at BH command,

21    as we called -- used to call headquarters UNPROFOR at that time, because

22    General Gobillard was the acting UNPROFOR commander in the absence of

23    General Smith.

24       Q.   So, in other words, you were not in your own PTT headquarters, you

25    were over in BH command headquarters; is that correct?

Page 18249

 1       A.   That's correct.

 2       Q.   And who was most frequently nearby to you and General Gobillard

 3    during this time?  Can you describe for the Trial Chamber who you were

 4    working with or who you were seeing most during this period of high

 5    activity?

 6       A.   The Chief of Staff of BH command was present throughout, General

 7    Nicolai, who was a Dutch general officer.  I remember the G3 of BH

 8    command, the man in charge of operations, was a Canadian

 9    Lieutenant-Colonel, Rick Hatton.  The military assistant to General Smith

10    was also present, Colonel Jim Baxter.  Those I guess were the main persons

11    we dealt with during those few days at BH command.

12       Q.   And what did you spend your time doing during that period of time?

13    What kinds of things were you tasked to do or --

14       A.   We were mostly trying to figure out exactly what was happening on

15    the ground.  And it was not a simple matter.  The enclave being some

16    distance away, we had communications coming in -- or information coming

17    over various channels.  I can describe them, if you want.

18       Q.   Sure, if you would, please describe some of the sources of

19    information and the channels through which they arrived to BH command?

20       A.   Okay.  There was -- in Srebrenica there was a Dutch company which

21    was manning the observation post, the UN observation post there.  That

22    company was in touch with its battalion headquarters, which was located

23    elsewhere in Bosnia and that headquarters had phone conversation with BH

24    command where we were located and usually the Dutch Battalion commanding

25    officer would call General Nicolai and relay the information he had got

Page 18250

 1    from his company commander in Srebrenica.

 2            Another means was -- we had TACPs as we called them, tactical air

 3    command posts, deployed in Srebrenica and they were manned by British

 4    personnel, these people had direct communication with BH command and they

 5    were relaying information.  In addition, the Bosnian government had

 6    communication in -- with their people in Srebrenica and they were calling

 7    us, asking all sorts of things and providing the information as they saw

 8    it.

 9       Q.   And how about from the Serb side?  Were you also having contacts,

10    information coming in, from either the VRS or any Serb public officials

11    that you recall?

12       A.   Yes.  We had phone conversations.  General Nicolai, I know, had

13    many phone conversation with General Tolimir, for one, that I remember.

14    And General Gobillard had phone conversation with General Gvero which I

15    was involved in translating part of it.  Those are the main two, I

16    believe.

17       Q.   Now, without discussing for the moment any particular conversation

18    between UNPROFOR officers and VRS officers, can you describe the general

19    tone and gist of the conversations that you either heard or participated

20    in personally or heard reported to you by participants in these

21    conversations?

22       A.   Well, the information we got from the Dutch and from the British

23    manning the TACPs was basically telling us to do something because they

24    were attacked by the VRS.  The conversation we with the Serb

25    representatives were telling us that they were not attacking, that the

Page 18251

 1    Bosnians were, and they were not attacking UNPROFOR, they were not

 2    attacking civilians, they were not attacking.  And then that they would

 3    confirm what was happening on the ground and then get back to us 30

 4    minutes later.  That happened a number of times in the three or four days

 5    where we would be told, "We are not attacking.  Let me check, I'll get

 6    back to you in 30 minutes."

 7       Q.   And during this period of time, when you had these conversations

 8    and then call backs and then more conversations, did you have to take any

 9    steps in your command to verify these allegations or these statements that

10    the VRS officers were making to you about denying that they were firing,

11    for example?

12       A.   Of course we went back to the British military and the TACPs.  We

13    went back through the Dutch Battalion to the Dutch company on the ground

14    asking for a clearer picture because the only mean that we have to

15    intervene was close air support, and it's a very difficult weapon to use

16    when our troops are in close proximity to the attacker.  So we needed a

17    clear picture to make our own decisions about using close air support to

18    satisfy the force commander that the criteria were respected for the use

19    of close air support, to satisfy NATO that provided the aircraft that

20    would launch or provide the close air support, that the criteria were met,

21    et cetera, et cetera.

22       Q.   And what effect, if any, did this series of phone calls and having

23    to wait and wait for confirmation from the VRS, and then having to verify

24    with your own people the state of affairs given the VRS's claims to you,

25    what if any effect did this have on UNPROFOR's response to the VRS attack?

Page 18252

 1       A.   Well, it just added to the overall confusion, and the force

 2    commander, of course, got most of his information from us, and they

 3    perhaps -- they were at a political level more concerned with different

 4    criteria for the use of close air support.  But the delaying tactics that

 5    the Serbs employed for those three or four days just added to the

 6    confusion.  We were never sure of the exact situation on the ground and

 7    how pertinent it was to use close air support, so the decision was

 8    delayed, it became night-time, which is not appropriate to use the type of

 9    aircraft we had at the time or the weather turned bad and they could not

10    fly any more, and while we were not acting, they kept advancing and

11    attacking and getting closer, making the use of close air support even

12    more difficult.

13       Q.   Now, sir, you already mentioned a conversation you recall between

14    General Gobillard and General Gvero.  Do you recall playing some role in

15    that conversation and, if so, what was it?

16       A.   In fact, General Gvero spoke his own language.  There was a

17    British interpreter who translated from Serbian to English.  I translated

18    to General Gobillard from English to French.  He would reply, I would then

19    translate his reply from French to English, the interpreter would

20    translate to Serbian, and that's how the conversation happened.

21       Q.   I didn't think things could get more cumbersome than they are in

22    here but it sounds like they did.

23            Who were the actual participants in the conversation?  Who were

24    the main speakers in this conversation, that you recall?

25       A.   General Gvero, on the Serb side, and General Gobillard, on our

Page 18253

 1    side.

 2       Q.   And do you recall the date that this conversation took place?

 3       A.   10 or 11 July, I'm not sure.

 4       Q.   Okay.  We can look at some documents shortly to see if that jogs

 5    your recollection.  But you've described the process.  Were you able to

 6    hear this conversation or was this something that was done on a closed

 7    phone, sir?

 8       A.   It was on a speaker phone.  The quality was not great, enough so

 9    the interpreter could understand and translate.

10       Q.   Okay.  Now, during -- during this conversation, were you doing

11    anything other than translating?

12       A.   I took a few notes.  I did a lot of that during my time in Bosnia.

13    Not a whole lot because I had to keep concentrated on what was going on,

14    because of the importance of what was happening.  We had people under fire

15    in Srebrenica.  The Dutch already had one killed.  And plus the confusion

16    I was describing.  So it was important to stay alert.

17       Q.   And despite the difficulty that you just described with the

18    speaker phone, based on your recollection, were you able to have an a

19    coherent conversation, or was General Gobillard and General Gvero able to

20    have a conversation back and forth, based on your recollection?

21       A.   As far as I remember, as I recall, yes.

22       Q.   Okay.  And after the conversation, what if anything did you do

23    with those notes that you were taking?

24       A.   All the notes I took, I typed them up, usually the same day

25    because we had more meetings and more note taking the following day, so I

Page 18254

 1    didn't want to fall behind.  Sometimes I'd have to type them up separately

 2    in a hurry because the information was needed at other headquarters.  In

 3    this case, I think we sent a copy to the force commander.

 4            MR. THAYER:  If we may have 65 ter 2968, please, on e-court?  I

 5    think we have enough time to work with this document before the -- before

 6    the end of the day.

 7       Q.   Colonel, we are doing a split screen.  If you -- it would be

 8    easier for you to look at a hard copy, I do have a hard copy that you can

 9    read.

10       A.   That should be all right.

11       Q.   If you would, just take a moment, take a look at the document

12    that's in front of you, I note that it's dated 11 July.  And if we may

13    scroll down, thank you.

14            Do you recognise this document?

15       A.   I do.

16       Q.   And what is it?

17       A.   This is the -- my notes or my take of the conversation between

18    General Gvero and General Gobillard.

19       Q.   Now, if we may just go quickly to page 2 of the English, and it's

20    also page 2 of the B/C/S, just ask you, is that your signature at the

21    bottom of the page?

22       A.   It is.

23       Q.   Now, you just mentioned that this document was -- I think you used

24    the word "my take" on the conversation.  When you take the notes and write

25    up such a report, are you expressing your opinion of anything or are you

Page 18255

 1    doing something else?  What is -- what is the objective of creating such a

 2    report from your perspective?

 3       A.   Well, report the facts.  If the commander wants opinion he will

 4    ask me, but I try to stick to the facts so that whoever this information

 5    is shared with has the basically the same basis to start with before

 6    adding opinion, options, things like that.

 7       Q.   If we may go back to page 1 of both versions, please, I just want

 8    to ask you a couple of questions.  Just to be clear, Colonel, this

 9    indicates that this conversation is between Generals Gobillard and Gvero,

10    11 July at 1810 hours.  Is this the conversation you were speaking about

11    just a few moments ago?

12       A.   It's the one.

13       Q.   Now, the first paragraph looks like it captures General

14    Gobillard's first comments to General Gvero, and then the second paragraph

15    looks like it is General Gvero's first response.  Is that fair to say?  Is

16    that accurate?

17       A.   Yeah, correct.

18       Q.   Now, turning your attention to that second full paragraph, where

19    it states, and this is General Gvero, "If UNPROFOR troops were really

20    targeted then it was the BiH who fired on to them, according to their old

21    scenario.  Our army never attacked UNPROFOR.  The BSA had never thought of

22    UNPROFOR to be a belligerent party."

23            Was this on the 11th of July, sir, was this the first time that

24    you had heard, either personally or reported to you by somebody else,

25    heard this type of denial or statement by the VRS during the course of

Page 18256

 1    this attack?

 2       A.   No.  General Nicolai was told the same thing by the prior contact

 3    he was having with the VRS.

 4       Q.   And same question with respect to the next statement:  "The BSA

 5    were not attacking civilians either."  Was this the first time you'd heard

 6    this type of denial from the VRS?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   And if we may turn to page 2 of the document in both versions,

 9    please?  Perfect.  Thank you.

10            Looking at the second paragraph, sir, again, General Gvero's

11    response, "He claimed that a great number of UN vehicles stolen by the BiH

12    and still painted white were used against the BSA.  He said he had no

13    absolute knowledge of who the troops in the vehicles belonged to but drew

14    the general's attention to the BSA, reliable information that those were

15    the BiH."

16            This information about -- or this statement about the Muslims

17    using stolen or white UN vehicles, had you heard that allegation or

18    statement in the days before this phone call?

19       A.   Yes.  I believe it was used again by those contacts General

20    Nicolai had.

21       Q.   And do you recall receiving any information at any time during

22    this period that the Muslims had in fact been using UN APCs during the

23    attack on Srebrenica?

24       A.   No.  And we knew -- we knew they were the Dutch company vehicles,

25    and the Dutch soldiers were in those vehicles, and they were located at

Page 18257

 1    the position to block the advancing Serbs, but the BiH had not taken any

 2    of those vehicles.

 3       Q.   Colonel, I thank you.  I think we are at the close of the day.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  You're correct, Mr. Thayer.  We have to stop here

 5    for today.  We'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

 7                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of

 8                          November, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.